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GE2019 CON voters much more likely to switch to LAB than vice versa – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,164
edited April 2023 in General
imageGE2019 CON voters much more likely to switch to LAB than vice versa – politicalbetting.com

I really like this polling question which I have seen before but not for a long time. The format gives us a sense of the direction of travel and potential for tactical voting

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • It may be because it's first thing in the morning but I've had to think hard about these tables to understand what they're saying (....or it may be just that I'm permanently intellectually challenged).

    But if I've read them right, 56% of people say they would probably not, or would never, consider voting Conservative. And 40% say the same about Labour.

    I find that quite shocking. Is our country really so divided? How does that compare with other countries? (OK, so comparisons are difficult with most other countries where there are more than two major parties, but how do we compare with the US on this metric?)

    And then I stop and realise I'm being brazenly hypocritical because I would have probably answered in such a way that I would have been included in either the 56% or the 40%. How many other PBers fall into one or other of those two categories?

    Does anyone else share my concern...?
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 7,084
    Good morning. Interesting.

    The hatred towards the Conservatives is continuing unabated. If you doubt this, go out into the streets and listen.

    I've never known anything like it. A seachange has occurred. They are going to get hammered at the next General Election.
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 7,084



    And then I stop and realise I'm being brazenly hypocritical because I would have probably answered in such a way that I would have been included in either the 56% or the 40%. How many other PBers fall into one or other of those two categories?

    I have voted for 4 political parties in my lifetime: all 3 main ones and the Greens.

    I would never vote for this current bunch of hate-filled immoral Conservatives, but they were not ever thus.
  • Heathener said:

    Good morning. Interesting.

    The hatred towards the Conservatives is continuing unabated. If you doubt this, go out into the streets and listen.

    I've never known anything like it. A seachange has occurred. They are going to get hammered at the next General Election.

    Rinse and repeat.

    It’s absolutely fine to have this view.

    But you state it day after day. No evidence, no data to support it. Just a statement of opinion.

    You may well be right (personally I suspect a hung Parliament with a labour government).

    But it’s dull and repetitive to just start every thread with the same statement.
    I never really feel it until I read the word visceral
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 7,084
    edited April 2023

    Heathener said:

    Good morning. Interesting.

    The hatred towards the Conservatives is continuing unabated. If you doubt this, go out into the streets and listen.

    I've never known anything like it. A seachange has occurred. They are going to get hammered at the next General Election.



    But you state it day after day. No evidence, no data to support it. Just a statement of opinion.
    .
    Oh there's all the evidence in the world:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_next_United_Kingdom_general_election

    You just refuse to listen to it.

    One of the biggest mistakes punters can make in this, as in any field of betting, is recency bias.

    We place our trust in past performance, indicators, and entirely spurious 'unprecedented' notions. There is no such thing in betting as unprecedented. It's only unprecedented until it isn't.

    The opinion polls are NOT lying. Pay attention everyone.

  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,465
    Heathener said:

    Good morning. Interesting.

    The hatred towards the Conservatives is continuing unabated. If you doubt this, go out into the streets and listen.

    I've never known anything like it. A seachange has occurred. They are going to get hammered at the next General Election.

    Are you going to post this at 5.30am every morning for the next 18 months?
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216

    Heathener said:

    Good morning. Interesting.

    The hatred towards the Conservatives is continuing unabated. If you doubt this, go out into the streets and listen.

    I've never known anything like it. A seachange has occurred. They are going to get hammered at the next General Election.

    You may well be right (personally I suspect a hung Parliament with a labour government)..
    I agree - Labour (clearly) largest party but probably short of a majority. The Tories are going out of a window - but I suspect it may be from a more survivable lower floor than the 99th that Heathener is piously praying for.

  • Morning all! I agree with @Heathener - the public mood is mutinous. And the latest Tory obscenity is the attack on British men of Pakistani heritage.

    Yes, we have a few examples of Pakistani "grooming gangs" which the authorities ignored. But she's basically just given all the white men who do this the green light to not be suspected.

    They *can't* be a nonce. They have white skin. Just like Jimmy Saville . This is crayon politics aimed at genuinely ignorant people who have had this weaponised by certain newspapers as a stick to beat anyone with funny skin. Or anyone who actually has a faith unlike the ignorant white racist.

    Before anyone says I am being exclusionary, I am not. Some heinous acts have been carried out by British men of Pakistani heritage. As well as by white men of non-Pakistani heritage. Personally I think we should go after criminals - hard to do when the government have gutted the justice system.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,405

    Morning all! I agree with @Heathener - the public mood is mutinous. And the latest Tory obscenity is the attack on British men of Pakistani heritage.

    Yes, we have a few examples of Pakistani "grooming gangs" which the authorities ignored. But she's basically just given all the white men who do this the green light to not be suspected.

    They *can't* be a nonce. They have white skin. Just like Jimmy Saville . This is crayon politics aimed at genuinely ignorant people who have had this weaponised by certain newspapers as a stick to beat anyone with funny skin. Or anyone who actually has a faith unlike the ignorant white racist.

    Before anyone says I am being exclusionary, I am not. Some heinous acts have been carried out by British men of Pakistani heritage. As well as by white men of non-Pakistani heritage. Personally I think we should go after criminals - hard to do when the government have gutted the justice system.

    I feel for you

    an Asian PM and and Asian home secretary so you cant cry racist.

    You must be gutted.
  • Morning all! I agree with @Heathener - the public mood is mutinous. And the latest Tory obscenity is the attack on British men of Pakistani heritage.

    Yes, we have a few examples of Pakistani "grooming gangs" which the authorities ignored. But she's basically just given all the white men who do this the green light to not be suspected.

    They *can't* be a nonce. They have white skin. Just like Jimmy Saville . This is crayon politics aimed at genuinely ignorant people who have had this weaponised by certain newspapers as a stick to beat anyone with funny skin. Or anyone who actually has a faith unlike the ignorant white racist.

    Before anyone says I am being exclusionary, I am not. Some heinous acts have been carried out by British men of Pakistani heritage. As well as by white men of non-Pakistani heritage. Personally I think we should go after criminals - hard to do when the government have gutted the justice system.

    I feel for you

    an Asian PM and and Asian home secretary so you cant cry racist.

    You must be gutted.
    Laughable. This is a policy written in crayon to stoke racism. BTW "Asian" is itself racist when you are claiming that a Hindu PM and an Indian-heritage HS are the same as people of Pakistani origin.

    Can't be racist? You ever heard Indians and Pakistanis going at each other? This is someone from one heritage branding people of a different heritage to all be perverts. It is *inherently racist.

    Growing up in Rochdale in the 1980s, "paki" what white person shorthand for all the Asians in the town. Despite the reality that we had sizable communities from India. Kashmir. Bangladesh. And yes Pakistan. Branding anyone with brown skin as a unitary group - "Asian" in your case - is as ignorant as my Gran calling the Indian family next door "the Pakis"

    It is 2023. Really sad to read that level of ignorance is live and well. Then again we know this - that policy is aimed square at them.
  • MikeLMikeL Posts: 7,706
    edited April 2023
    The Betfair US Masters market is interesting.

    There are 93 players listed - though the field is now finalised at 88 players.

    And no, the five not playing aren't all 1,000. I haven't checked all five - but one player not playing can be laid below 100.

    Until a couple of days ago, 103 players were listed - though it was possible for one more player (on top of the 88) to qualify by winning the Texas Open which finished yesterday. But several players not even in the Texas Open were listed - eg Casey - who could have been laid at approx 130. He has now been deleted from the market - presumably settled as a loser.

    Indeed Casey and Westwood were listed for weeks despite it being impossible for them to qualify as they were only playing LIV events.

    I assume the five further players still listed but not competing will be deleted within the next 24 to 48 hours.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,405

    Morning all! I agree with @Heathener - the public mood is mutinous. And the latest Tory obscenity is the attack on British men of Pakistani heritage.

    Yes, we have a few examples of Pakistani "grooming gangs" which the authorities ignored. But she's basically just given all the white men who do this the green light to not be suspected.

    They *can't* be a nonce. They have white skin. Just like Jimmy Saville . This is crayon politics aimed at genuinely ignorant people who have had this weaponised by certain newspapers as a stick to beat anyone with funny skin. Or anyone who actually has a faith unlike the ignorant white racist.

    Before anyone says I am being exclusionary, I am not. Some heinous acts have been carried out by British men of Pakistani heritage. As well as by white men of non-Pakistani heritage. Personally I think we should go after criminals - hard to do when the government have gutted the justice system.

    I feel for you

    an Asian PM and and Asian home secretary so you cant cry racist.

    You must be gutted.
    Laughable. This is a policy written in crayon to stoke racism. BTW "Asian" is itself racist when you are claiming that a Hindu PM and an Indian-heritage HS are the same as people of Pakistani origin.

    Can't be racist? You ever heard Indians and Pakistanis going at each other? This is someone from one heritage branding people of a different heritage to all be perverts. It is *inherently racist.

    Growing up in Rochdale in the 1980s, "paki" what white person shorthand for all the Asians in the town. Despite the reality that we had sizable communities from India. Kashmir. Bangladesh. And yes Pakistan. Branding anyone with brown skin as a unitary group - "Asian" in your case - is as ignorant as my Gran calling the Indian family next door "the Pakis"

    It is 2023. Really sad to read that level of ignorance is live and well. Then again we know this - that policy is aimed square at them.
    Ive sat in rooms with hindus sikhs and buddhists and what they say about the muslims would have me put in jail if I said it.

    And thats the point, you and your pastey faced cohorts run around yelling racism when there is no equal application of the law and all that counts is which group meets your virtue signalling twaddle this week.

  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 28,902
    edited April 2023

    Morning all! I agree with @Heathener - the public mood is mutinous. And the latest Tory obscenity is the attack on British men of Pakistani heritage.

    Yes, we have a few examples of Pakistani "grooming gangs" which the authorities ignored. But she's basically just given all the white men who do this the green light to not be suspected.

    They *can't* be a nonce. They have white skin. Just like Jimmy Saville . This is crayon politics aimed at genuinely ignorant people who have had this weaponised by certain newspapers as a stick to beat anyone with funny skin. Or anyone who actually has a faith unlike the ignorant white racist.

    Before anyone says I am being exclusionary, I am not. Some heinous acts have been carried out by British men of Pakistani heritage. As well as by white men of non-Pakistani heritage. Personally I think we should go after criminals - hard to do when the government have gutted the justice system.

    I feel for you

    an Asian PM and and Asian home secretary so you cant cry racist.

    You must be gutted.
    Laughable. This is a policy written in crayon to stoke racism. BTW "Asian" is itself racist when you are claiming that a Hindu PM and an Indian-heritage HS are the same as people of Pakistani origin.

    Can't be racist? You ever heard Indians and Pakistanis going at each other? This is someone from one heritage branding people of a different heritage to all be perverts. It is *inherently racist.

    Growing up in Rochdale in the 1980s, "paki" what white person shorthand for all the Asians in the town. Despite the reality that we had sizable communities from India. Kashmir. Bangladesh. And yes Pakistan. Branding anyone with brown skin as a unitary group - "Asian" in your case - is as ignorant as my Gran calling the Indian family next door "the Pakis"

    It is 2023. Really sad to read that level of ignorance is live and well. Then again we know this - that policy is aimed square at them.
    Ive sat in rooms with hindus sikhs and buddhists and what they say about the muslims would have me put in jail if I said it.

    And thats the point, you and your pastey faced cohorts run around yelling racism when there is no equal application of the law and all that counts is which group meets your virtue signalling twaddle this week.

    So having experienced Asian on Asian racism yourself - as I have - why have you said that the HS can't be racist towards a different Asian heritage?

    You mention equal application of the law. Growing up in Rochdale the local monster was Cyril Smith. Who got away with it. In more recent times the monsters have been Pakistani heritage. Who got away with it.

    If inbuilt racism is the reason why we don't apply the law equally, why do we keep having appalling cases where mass offenders eventually get caught? If racism is why the Pakistani heritage gang members took so long to get caught, was it also racism that the same system ignored Smith?

    Not the smartest thing you have ever posted.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,405
    edited April 2023

    Morning all! I agree with @Heathener - the public mood is mutinous. And the latest Tory obscenity is the attack on British men of Pakistani heritage.

    Yes, we have a few examples of Pakistani "grooming gangs" which the authorities ignored. But she's basically just given all the white men who do this the green light to not be suspected.

    They *can't* be a nonce. They have white skin. Just like Jimmy Saville . This is crayon politics aimed at genuinely ignorant people who have had this weaponised by certain newspapers as a stick to beat anyone with funny skin. Or anyone who actually has a faith unlike the ignorant white racist.

    Before anyone says I am being exclusionary, I am not. Some heinous acts have been carried out by British men of Pakistani heritage. As well as by white men of non-Pakistani heritage. Personally I think we should go after criminals - hard to do when the government have gutted the justice system.

    I feel for you

    an Asian PM and and Asian home secretary so you cant cry racist.

    You must be gutted.
    Laughable. This is a policy written in crayon to stoke racism. BTW "Asian" is itself racist when you are claiming that a Hindu PM and an Indian-heritage HS are the same as people of Pakistani origin.

    Can't be racist? You ever heard Indians and Pakistanis going at each other? This is someone from one heritage branding people of a different heritage to all be perverts. It is *inherently racist.

    Growing up in Rochdale in the 1980s, "paki" what white person shorthand for all the Asians in the town. Despite the reality that we had sizable communities from India. Kashmir. Bangladesh. And yes Pakistan. Branding anyone with brown skin as a unitary group - "Asian" in your case - is as ignorant as my Gran calling the Indian family next door "the Pakis"

    It is 2023. Really sad to read that level of ignorance is live and well. Then again we know this - that policy is aimed square at them.
    Ive sat in rooms with hindus sikhs and buddhists and what they say about the muslims would have me put in jail if I said it.

    And thats the point, you and your pastey faced cohorts run around yelling racism when there is no equal application of the law and all that counts is which group meets your virtue signalling twaddle this week.

    So having experienced Asian on Asian racism yourself - as I have - why have you said that the HS can't be racist towards a different Asian heritage?

    Not the smartest thing you have ever posted.
    Hmmm

    I said nothing specific re the HS views but now see youre accusing the her of being a racist ?

    why is it that anyone who disagrees with you is automatically a racist ?

    Slurry in all senses of the word
  • Morning all! I agree with @Heathener - the public mood is mutinous. And the latest Tory obscenity is the attack on British men of Pakistani heritage.

    Yes, we have a few examples of Pakistani "grooming gangs" which the authorities ignored. But she's basically just given all the white men who do this the green light to not be suspected.

    They *can't* be a nonce. They have white skin. Just like Jimmy Saville . This is crayon politics aimed at genuinely ignorant people who have had this weaponised by certain newspapers as a stick to beat anyone with funny skin. Or anyone who actually has a faith unlike the ignorant white racist.

    Before anyone says I am being exclusionary, I am not. Some heinous acts have been carried out by British men of Pakistani heritage. As well as by white men of non-Pakistani heritage. Personally I think we should go after criminals - hard to do when the government have gutted the justice system.

    I feel for you

    an Asian PM and and Asian home secretary so you cant cry racist.

    You must be gutted.
    Laughable. This is a policy written in crayon to stoke racism. BTW "Asian" is itself racist when you are claiming that a Hindu PM and an Indian-heritage HS are the same as people of Pakistani origin.

    Can't be racist? You ever heard Indians and Pakistanis going at each other? This is someone from one heritage branding people of a different heritage to all be perverts. It is *inherently racist.

    Growing up in Rochdale in the 1980s, "paki" what white person shorthand for all the Asians in the town. Despite the reality that we had sizable communities from India. Kashmir. Bangladesh. And yes Pakistan. Branding anyone with brown skin as a unitary group - "Asian" in your case - is as ignorant as my Gran calling the Indian family next door "the Pakis"

    It is 2023. Really sad to read that level of ignorance is live and well. Then again we know this - that policy is aimed square at them.
    Ive sat in rooms with hindus sikhs and buddhists and what they say about the muslims would have me put in jail if I said it.

    And thats the point, you and your pastey faced cohorts run around yelling racism when there is no equal application of the law and all that counts is which group meets your virtue signalling twaddle this week.

    So having experienced Asian on Asian racism yourself - as I have - why have you said that the HS can't be racist towards a different Asian heritage?

    Not the smartest thing you have ever posted.
    Hmmm

    I said nothing specific re the HS but now see youre accusing the her of being a racist ?

    why is it that anyone who disagrees with you is automatically a racist ?

    Slurry in all senses of the word
    You Avent just posted "re Asian Home Secretary" then?
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,405

    Morning all! I agree with @Heathener - the public mood is mutinous. And the latest Tory obscenity is the attack on British men of Pakistani heritage.

    Yes, we have a few examples of Pakistani "grooming gangs" which the authorities ignored. But she's basically just given all the white men who do this the green light to not be suspected.

    They *can't* be a nonce. They have white skin. Just like Jimmy Saville . This is crayon politics aimed at genuinely ignorant people who have had this weaponised by certain newspapers as a stick to beat anyone with funny skin. Or anyone who actually has a faith unlike the ignorant white racist.

    Before anyone says I am being exclusionary, I am not. Some heinous acts have been carried out by British men of Pakistani heritage. As well as by white men of non-Pakistani heritage. Personally I think we should go after criminals - hard to do when the government have gutted the justice system.

    I feel for you

    an Asian PM and and Asian home secretary so you cant cry racist.

    You must be gutted.
    Laughable. This is a policy written in crayon to stoke racism. BTW "Asian" is itself racist when you are claiming that a Hindu PM and an Indian-heritage HS are the same as people of Pakistani origin.

    Can't be racist? You ever heard Indians and Pakistanis going at each other? This is someone from one heritage branding people of a different heritage to all be perverts. It is *inherently racist.

    Growing up in Rochdale in the 1980s, "paki" what white person shorthand for all the Asians in the town. Despite the reality that we had sizable communities from India. Kashmir. Bangladesh. And yes Pakistan. Branding anyone with brown skin as a unitary group - "Asian" in your case - is as ignorant as my Gran calling the Indian family next door "the Pakis"

    It is 2023. Really sad to read that level of ignorance is live and well. Then again we know this - that policy is aimed square at them.
    Ive sat in rooms with hindus sikhs and buddhists and what they say about the muslims would have me put in jail if I said it.

    And thats the point, you and your pastey faced cohorts run around yelling racism when there is no equal application of the law and all that counts is which group meets your virtue signalling twaddle this week.

    So having experienced Asian on Asian racism yourself - as I have - why have you said that the HS can't be racist towards a different Asian heritage?

    Not the smartest thing you have ever posted.
    Hmmm

    I said nothing specific re the HS but now see youre accusing the her of being a racist ?

    why is it that anyone who disagrees with you is automatically a racist ?

    Slurry in all senses of the word
    You Avent just posted "re Asian Home Secretary" then?
    Of course I did, but at no point did I say her policy was attributable to her religion, you brought that in.

    It shows of course that you cant handle someone upsetting your ethnic apple cart.

  • TazTaz Posts: 14,415

    Heathener said:

    Good morning. Interesting.

    The hatred towards the Conservatives is continuing unabated. If you doubt this, go out into the streets and listen.

    I've never known anything like it. A seachange has occurred. They are going to get hammered at the next General Election.

    Rinse and repeat.

    It’s absolutely fine to have this view.

    But you state it day after day. No evidence, no data to support it. Just a statement of opinion.

    You may well be right (personally I suspect a hung Parliament with a labour government).

    But it’s dull and repetitive to just start every thread with the same statement.
    Like listening to Agadoo every day.
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,723
    Is the Pope Catholic?
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,415

    Heathener said:

    Good morning. Interesting.

    The hatred towards the Conservatives is continuing unabated. If you doubt this, go out into the streets and listen.

    I've never known anything like it. A seachange has occurred. They are going to get hammered at the next General Election.

    Rinse and repeat.

    It’s absolutely fine to have this view.

    But you state it day after day. No evidence, no data to support it. Just a statement of opinion.

    You may well be right (personally I suspect a hung Parliament with a labour government).

    But it’s dull and repetitive to just start every thread with the same statement.
    I never really feel it until I read the word visceral
    I always feel slightly disappointed when the word ‘shellacked’ is omitted.
  • Taz said:

    Heathener said:

    Good morning. Interesting.

    The hatred towards the Conservatives is continuing unabated. If you doubt this, go out into the streets and listen.

    I've never known anything like it. A seachange has occurred. They are going to get hammered at the next General Election.

    Rinse and repeat.

    It’s absolutely fine to have this view.

    But you state it day after day. No evidence, no data to support it. Just a statement of opinion.

    You may well be right (personally I suspect a hung Parliament with a labour government).

    But it’s dull and repetitive to just start every thread with the same statement.
    Like listening to Agadoo every day.
    Surely you mean Radiohead?
  • On topic.

    It's the economy, stupid.

    More than one million people are in debt to loan sharks, new research suggests, as it emerges illegal money lenders are demanding sexual favours in repayment contracts with borrowers.

    Around 2.4 per cent of the population - or 1.08 million people - admitted they had borrowed money from “someone locally who charged interest” who operated outside the conventional banking sector, according to the report by the Centre for Social Justice (CSJ).

    This is 700,000 more than previously thought and includes middle-income families. The CSJ fears more will fall into the hands of loan sharks due to the looming cost of living crisis. Nearly half (45 per cent) who used illegal money lenders borrowed cash for everyday expenses and household bills.

    The CSJ found loan sharks used a range of coercive, violent and underhand tactics to enforce repayments ranging from sex-for-loans and physical assaults to threats to set bullies on borrowers’ children at school.

    Some 10 per cent of borrowers have had to provide sex for loans or sign agreements to provide sexual favours if they defaulted, according to the CSJ report which was based on interviews with moneylending investigation teams, a database of 1,200 victims and a poll of 4,000 adults.

    One template contract for a £25,000 loan, obtained by an illegal money lending team, said “interest on the loan capital will be rendered in kind with Ms X agreeing to provide sexual gratification for Mr Y. Such services will be available upon request at every loan repayment.”

    One victim, Anna, 38, told investigators: “I’m scared of what he can do. I had to sleep with him because I couldn’t afford the payments. I feel unclean…I knew it was wrong, but he took a photo of my daughter coming out of school and sent it to me saying: ‘We now know what she looks like.’”

    Repayment of loans can take up to a decade. One example saw a woman borrow £3,000 to pay off her brother’s loan, which was only cleared three years’ later after she had repaid £20,000. Another who borrowed £3,000 paid back £18,000 in instalments over five years.


    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/03/21/one-million-debt-loan-sharks-demanding-sexual-favours-repayment/
  • Australia becoming a republic and scrapping the monarchy is “inevitable” even though Australians are proud to have the King as their head of state, the country’s new high commissioner has said.

    In his first interview since moving to London, Stephen Smith said most British people would be “indifferent” to Australia getting rid of the monarchy and said it would not damage the countries’ relationship.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/inevitable-australia-dump-king-charles-republicans-labor-kwq5b8tl8

    The High Commissioner is wrong, at least 52% of Brits will be chuffed that another country is following the UK's lead and getting rid of their unelected rulers.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,465
    On topic, unless I'm reading that data incorrectly the movements from Con > Lab are very modest, in the order of 6-9%.

    The big problem for Sunak here is rallying the "not sure" and "yes - probably in the future"

    The Lib Dems should take some heart. The data there points to potential for quite a bit of tactical voting in key marginals, which is much easier to analyse and execute these days with AI and sophisticated apps on everyone's phones. The spa towns and stockbroker belt could be vulnerable.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,403

    Australia becoming a republic and scrapping the monarchy is “inevitable” even though Australians are proud to have the King as their head of state, the country’s new high commissioner has said.

    In his first interview since moving to London, Stephen Smith said most British people would be “indifferent” to Australia getting rid of the monarchy and said it would not damage the countries’ relationship.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/inevitable-australia-dump-king-charles-republicans-labor-kwq5b8tl8

    The High Commissioner is wrong, at least 52% of Brits will be chuffed that another country is following the UK's lead and getting rid of their unelected rulers.

    You’re not 52% of Brits, Mr Eagles. If you were, 53% wouldn’t indulge in abominable practices like eating pineapple on pizza.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    Follow up on US life expectancy:

    Much has been made of the declining life expectancy in the US.

    The reality is regional. Think of the US as two countries:

    Some blue counties with increasing life-expectancy better than 🇯🇵 (84) & many red counties with plummeting life expectancy worse than 🇷🇺 (71).
    1/




    https://twitter.com/nickmmark/status/1642548933795909632?s=20
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,679
    Quick question. Are Kindles still a thing? It must be years since I saw anyone use one or even mention them.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,403

    Follow up on US life expectancy:

    Much has been made of the declining life expectancy in the US.

    The reality is regional. Think of the US as two countries:

    Some blue counties with increasing life-expectancy better than 🇯🇵 (84) & many red counties with plummeting life expectancy worse than 🇷🇺 (71).
    1/




    https://twitter.com/nickmmark/status/1642548933795909632?s=20

    That map puzzles me. Sure, the Deep South having low life expectancy is what you would expect, but given the amount of gun violence in America’s cities it’s a bit startling to see most of them have higher life expectancy.

    Doubly so given that’s where most of the population live, so if anything you would expect American life expectancy to skew higher, masking a decline for certain groups and areas.

    What’s the nuance?
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,865

    It may be because it's first thing in the morning but I've had to think hard about these tables to understand what they're saying (....or it may be just that I'm permanently intellectually challenged).

    But if I've read them right, 56% of people say they would probably not, or would never, consider voting Conservative. And 40% say the same about Labour.

    I find that quite shocking. Is our country really so divided? How does that compare with other countries? (OK, so comparisons are difficult with most other countries where there are more than two major parties, but how do we compare with the US on this metric?)

    And then I stop and realise I'm being brazenly hypocritical because I would have probably answered in such a way that I would have been included in either the 56% or the 40%. How many other PBers fall into one or other of those two categories?

    Does anyone else share my concern...?

    The concern is the one person, having given their current voting intention as “Conservative”, went on to say “never” when asked if they would ever vote Conservative in the future. That person should be identified for concern at their own safety, and certainly shouldn’t be allowed out unaccompanied.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,865

    Morning all! I agree with @Heathener - the public mood is mutinous. And the latest Tory obscenity is the attack on British men of Pakistani heritage.

    Yes, we have a few examples of Pakistani "grooming gangs" which the authorities ignored. But she's basically just given all the white men who do this the green light to not be suspected.

    They *can't* be a nonce. They have white skin. Just like Jimmy Saville . This is crayon politics aimed at genuinely ignorant people who have had this weaponised by certain newspapers as a stick to beat anyone with funny skin. Or anyone who actually has a faith unlike the ignorant white racist.

    Before anyone says I am being exclusionary, I am not. Some heinous acts have been carried out by British men of Pakistani heritage. As well as by white men of non-Pakistani heritage. Personally I think we should go after criminals - hard to do when the government have gutted the justice system.

    I feel for you

    an Asian PM and and Asian home secretary so you cant cry racist.

    You must be gutted.
    I am guessing that you’ve never really done much canvassing of ethnic minority voters, then?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,403
    IanB2 said:

    It may be because it's first thing in the morning but I've had to think hard about these tables to understand what they're saying (....or it may be just that I'm permanently intellectually challenged).

    But if I've read them right, 56% of people say they would probably not, or would never, consider voting Conservative. And 40% say the same about Labour.

    I find that quite shocking. Is our country really so divided? How does that compare with other countries? (OK, so comparisons are difficult with most other countries where there are more than two major parties, but how do we compare with the US on this metric?)

    And then I stop and realise I'm being brazenly hypocritical because I would have probably answered in such a way that I would have been included in either the 56% or the 40%. How many other PBers fall into one or other of those two categories?

    Does anyone else share my concern...?

    The concern is the one person, having given their current voting intention as “Conservative”, went on to say “never” when asked if they would ever vote Conservative in the future. That person should be identified for concern at their own safety, and certainly shouldn’t be allowed out unaccompanied.
    Perhaps they want to vote for a conservative party and therefore would never vote for The Conservative Party?
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,865
    ydoethur said:

    Follow up on US life expectancy:

    Much has been made of the declining life expectancy in the US.

    The reality is regional. Think of the US as two countries:

    Some blue counties with increasing life-expectancy better than 🇯🇵 (84) & many red counties with plummeting life expectancy worse than 🇷🇺 (71).
    1/




    https://twitter.com/nickmmark/status/1642548933795909632?s=20

    That map puzzles me. Sure, the Deep South having low life expectancy is what you would expect, but given the amount of gun violence in America’s cities it’s a bit startling to see most of them have higher life expectancy.

    Doubly so given that’s where most of the population live, so if anything you would expect American life expectancy to skew higher, masking a decline for certain groups and areas.

    What’s the nuance?
    That map isn’t political - there are red states in the Midwest that generally aren’t doing too bad, the red bits on the map simply indicating where the remaining Native American reservations are. There’s clearly an ethnic dimension to it at a wider level, too. But more than anything it looks like a map of the civil war.
  • logical_songlogical_song Posts: 9,913
    ydoethur said:

    Follow up on US life expectancy:

    Much has been made of the declining life expectancy in the US.

    The reality is regional. Think of the US as two countries:

    Some blue counties with increasing life-expectancy better than 🇯🇵 (84) & many red counties with plummeting life expectancy worse than 🇷🇺 (71).
    1/




    https://twitter.com/nickmmark/status/1642548933795909632?s=20

    That map puzzles me. Sure, the Deep South having low life expectancy is what you would expect, but given the amount of gun violence in America’s cities it’s a bit startling to see most of them have higher life expectancy.

    Doubly so given that’s where most of the population live, so if anything you would expect American life expectancy to skew higher, masking a decline for certain groups and areas.

    What’s the nuance?
    Healthcare?
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,904
    edited April 2023

    Quick question. Are Kindles still a thing? It must be years since I saw anyone use one or even mention them.

    I use my kindle every day, and have an idea Amazon has recently launched new models. Does Amazon release sales figures that differentiate between paper and kindle books?

    ETA it is possible demand for kindle devices has been reduced by saturation, less commuting, and use of kindle phone apps.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,223
    ydoethur said:

    Follow up on US life expectancy:

    Much has been made of the declining life expectancy in the US.

    The reality is regional. Think of the US as two countries:

    Some blue counties with increasing life-expectancy better than 🇯🇵 (84) & many red counties with plummeting life expectancy worse than 🇷🇺 (71).
    1/




    https://twitter.com/nickmmark/status/1642548933795909632?s=20

    That map puzzles me. Sure, the Deep South having low life expectancy is what you would expect, but given the amount of gun violence in America’s cities it’s a bit startling to see most of them have higher life expectancy.

    Doubly so given that’s where most of the population live, so if anything you would expect American life expectancy to skew higher, masking a decline for certain groups and areas.

    What’s the nuance?
    Gun deaths, horrible, visible and far too common though they are, can't be that numerous... Can they? Whereas death by poor lifestyle, dodgy healthcare and so on are hidden but ubiquitous.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    ydoethur said:

    Follow up on US life expectancy:

    Much has been made of the declining life expectancy in the US.

    The reality is regional. Think of the US as two countries:

    Some blue counties with increasing life-expectancy better than 🇯🇵 (84) & many red counties with plummeting life expectancy worse than 🇷🇺 (71).
    1/




    https://twitter.com/nickmmark/status/1642548933795909632?s=20

    That map puzzles me. Sure, the Deep South having low life expectancy is what you would expect, but given the amount of gun violence in America’s cities it’s a bit startling to see most of them have higher life expectancy.

    Doubly so given that’s where most of the population live, so if anything you would expect American life expectancy to skew higher, masking a decline for certain groups and areas.

    What’s the nuance?
    Worth reading the whole thread which has some cool interactive maps - but the author highlights:

    The 20 year difference in life expectancy (& the fact that parts of the south have worse life expectancy than Turkmenistan!) is shocking.

    The causes of this ought to be the leading political issues in every election:
    - opioid overdoses
    - gun deaths
    - access to healthcare
    - 4/

    https://twitter.com/nickmmark/status/1642556517680545792?s=20
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,723
    edited April 2023

    Quick question. Are Kindles still a thing? It must be years since I saw anyone use one or even mention them.

    I use my kindle every day, and have an idea Amazon has recently launched new models. Does Amazon release sales figures that differentiate between paper and kindle books?

    ETA it is possible demand for kindle devices has been reduced by saturation, less commuting, and use of kindle phone apps.
    I can't be doing with it. I have tried but reading a paper book is n times better for me..
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,084
    I suspect that political correctness - whatever the Home Secretary and Prime Minister's motives in focusing on it with regard to child sexual exploitation - is not what explains this statistic.

    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2023/apr/02/rishi-sunak-says-grooming-gang-crackdown-will-defy-political-correctness
    ...Only 11% of child sexual abuse cases end with a charge, down from 32% seven years ago, according to official figures, while court delays have grown far worse, leading to some victims waiting years for justice...

    The fact is that the entire system is under resourced to deal with the problem.
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 6,813

    Quick question. Are Kindles still a thing? It must be years since I saw anyone use one or even mention them.

    I found mine invaluable when I commuted by train regularly as it saved carrying a bulky book around on top of the things I needed for work.

    Now post pandemic with limited commuting Ive reverted back to paper
  • CD13CD13 Posts: 6,366
    I'm not surprised by that polling. The reason can be given in one word ... Corbyn.

    Starmer intends Labour to be deemed safe to vote for, and he's succeeding. The Labour left might hate it, but facts is facts.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,586
    ydoethur said:

    Follow up on US life expectancy:

    Much has been made of the declining life expectancy in the US.

    The reality is regional. Think of the US as two countries:

    Some blue counties with increasing life-expectancy better than 🇯🇵 (84) & many red counties with plummeting life expectancy worse than 🇷🇺 (71).
    1/




    https://twitter.com/nickmmark/status/1642548933795909632?s=20

    That map puzzles me. Sure, the Deep South having low life expectancy is what you would expect, but given the amount of gun violence in America’s cities it’s a bit startling to see most of them have higher life expectancy.

    Doubly so given that’s where most of the population live, so if anything you would expect American life expectancy to skew higher, masking a decline for certain groups and areas.

    What’s the nuance?
    That map is showing life expectancy, rather than the change in life expectancy that is the headline.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,223

    ydoethur said:

    Follow up on US life expectancy:

    Much has been made of the declining life expectancy in the US.

    The reality is regional. Think of the US as two countries:

    Some blue counties with increasing life-expectancy better than 🇯🇵 (84) & many red counties with plummeting life expectancy worse than 🇷🇺 (71).
    1/




    https://twitter.com/nickmmark/status/1642548933795909632?s=20

    That map puzzles me. Sure, the Deep South having low life expectancy is what you would expect, but given the amount of gun violence in America’s cities it’s a bit startling to see most of them have higher life expectancy.

    Doubly so given that’s where most of the population live, so if anything you would expect American life expectancy to skew higher, masking a decline for certain groups and areas.

    What’s the nuance?
    Worth reading the whole thread which has some cool interactive maps - but the author highlights:

    The 20 year difference in life expectancy (& the fact that parts of the south have worse life expectancy than Turkmenistan!) is shocking.

    The causes of this ought to be the leading political issues in every election:
    - opioid overdoses
    - gun deaths
    - access to healthcare
    - 4/

    https://twitter.com/nickmmark/status/1642556517680545792?s=20
    And two of those are things where Republican voters defend the status quo with the ferocity of Momma Grizzly Bear protecting her young.

    Strange country.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,904
    The government has announced changes to driving tests and their administration, to be introduced at some unspecified time in summer (are there last minute glitches in the new software?). It is possible this might become an additional factor skewing younger voters for or against the government.

    The changes are: needing to wait 10 weeks before a new test after a failed test; no refunds of fees for cancelled tests within two weeks of the test date; electronic rather than paper pass certificates. I suspect the second measure might cause resentment; currently learners can cancel up to two days before and get the fee back.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,465

    Quick question. Are Kindles still a thing? It must be years since I saw anyone use one or even mention them.

    Ditto. I think paper books have staged a bit of a comeback.

    (People are probably otherwise reading them on their phones with an app that changes the lighting, or listening to audio books)
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,403
    IanB2 said:

    ydoethur said:

    Follow up on US life expectancy:

    Much has been made of the declining life expectancy in the US.

    The reality is regional. Think of the US as two countries:

    Some blue counties with increasing life-expectancy better than 🇯🇵 (84) & many red counties with plummeting life expectancy worse than 🇷🇺 (71).
    1/




    https://twitter.com/nickmmark/status/1642548933795909632?s=20

    That map puzzles me. Sure, the Deep South having low life expectancy is what you would expect, but given the amount of gun violence in America’s cities it’s a bit startling to see most of them have higher life expectancy.

    Doubly so given that’s where most of the population live, so if anything you would expect American life expectancy to skew higher, masking a decline for certain groups and areas.

    What’s the nuance?
    That map isn’t political - there are red states in the Midwest that generally aren’t doing too bad, the red bits on the map simply indicating where the remaining Native American reservations are. There’s clearly an ethnic dimension to it at a wider level, too. But more than anything it looks like a map of the civil war.
    I know it’s not political. Politics had sod all to do with my point. I was talking about the colours used to denote life expectancy.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,670

    Quick question. Are Kindles still a thing? It must be years since I saw anyone use one or even mention them.

    Yup. Essential commuting and travel tool.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,403
    Sandpit said:

    ydoethur said:

    Follow up on US life expectancy:

    Much has been made of the declining life expectancy in the US.

    The reality is regional. Think of the US as two countries:

    Some blue counties with increasing life-expectancy better than 🇯🇵 (84) & many red counties with plummeting life expectancy worse than 🇷🇺 (71).
    1/




    https://twitter.com/nickmmark/status/1642548933795909632?s=20

    That map puzzles me. Sure, the Deep South having low life expectancy is what you would expect, but given the amount of gun violence in America’s cities it’s a bit startling to see most of them have higher life expectancy.

    Doubly so given that’s where most of the population live, so if anything you would expect American life expectancy to skew higher, masking a decline for certain groups and areas.

    What’s the nuance?
    That map is showing life expectancy, rather than the change in life expectancy that is the headline.
    Ok, that makes sense. So basically it’s cratering at one end and not rising at the other?
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,674

    Quick question. Are Kindles still a thing? It must be years since I saw anyone use one or even mention them.

    They do have a couple of advantages over phone and tablet kindle apps. The screen is better in sunlight, and they hold enough charge for weeks of usage. Good for travellers off the beaten track.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,904

    Quick question. Are Kindles still a thing? It must be years since I saw anyone use one or even mention them.

    I use my kindle every day, and have an idea Amazon has recently launched new models. Does Amazon release sales figures that differentiate between paper and kindle books?

    ETA it is possible demand for kindle devices has been reduced by saturation, less commuting, and use of kindle phone apps.
    I can't be doing with it. I have tried but reading a paper book is n times better for me..
    I find kindles easier to read. They are lighter, and I can adjust the text size up or down and even change the typeface. However, I am more likely to recall where I've read something in the dead tree version. The second-hand book market has shrunk: even charity shops decline them.
  • Quick question. Are Kindles still a thing? It must be years since I saw anyone use one or even mention them.

    I use my kindle every day, and have an idea Amazon has recently launched new models. Does Amazon release sales figures that differentiate between paper and kindle books?

    ETA it is possible demand for kindle devices has been reduced by saturation, less commuting, and use of kindle phone apps.
    I can't be doing with it. I have tried but reading a paper book is n times better for me..
    I print out PB on thin A1 paper, so it’s like a broadsheet newspaper
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,794
    Good morning, everyone.

    Mr. Dawning, I still use my Kindle e-reader regularly. The space it saves is rather handy. I much prefer a book to an e-book, but delivery time/space/money do make e-books worth having.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    Starmer not the only Labour politician with a woman problem:

    The @nzlabour Prime Minister @chrishipkins can’t define what a woman is.

    “I wasn't expecting this question so it's not something I have formulated an answer on.”

    Not a good look for a leader whose country is more than 50% women.

    #AdultHumanFemale


    https://twitter.com/rachaelwongaus/status/1642767391800324098
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,586
    ydoethur said:

    Sandpit said:

    ydoethur said:

    Follow up on US life expectancy:

    Much has been made of the declining life expectancy in the US.

    The reality is regional. Think of the US as two countries:

    Some blue counties with increasing life-expectancy better than 🇯🇵 (84) & many red counties with plummeting life expectancy worse than 🇷🇺 (71).
    1/




    https://twitter.com/nickmmark/status/1642548933795909632?s=20

    That map puzzles me. Sure, the Deep South having low life expectancy is what you would expect, but given the amount of gun violence in America’s cities it’s a bit startling to see most of them have higher life expectancy.

    Doubly so given that’s where most of the population live, so if anything you would expect American life expectancy to skew higher, masking a decline for certain groups and areas.

    What’s the nuance?
    That map is showing life expectancy, rather than the change in life expectancy that is the headline.
    Ok, that makes sense. So basically it’s cratering at one end and not rising at the other?
    There could be a whole load of effects not seen on that graph. If a relatively wealthy city was beset by drugs and homelessness, it might see life expectancy drop from 82 to 80, which you wouldn’t necessarily notice.

    You do notice the drop at the bottom of the scale though, where post-industrial cities and native enclaves have been devastated by fentanyl and gangs.
  • jamesdoylejamesdoyle Posts: 790

    Quick question. Are Kindles still a thing? It must be years since I saw anyone use one or even mention them.

    I use my kindle every day, and have an idea Amazon has recently launched new models. Does Amazon release sales figures that differentiate between paper and kindle books?

    ETA it is possible demand for kindle devices has been reduced by saturation, less commuting, and use of kindle phone apps.
    I can't be doing with it. I have tried but reading a paper book is n times better for me..
    I find kindles easier to read. They are lighter, and I can adjust the text size up or down and even change the typeface. However, I am more likely to recall where I've read something in the dead tree version. The second-hand book market has shrunk: even charity shops decline them.
    The second hand book market hasn't shrunk, it's moved online and concentrated around a few large sellers. World of Books has a massive percentage of the second hand market. They buy for pennies, and sell for a reasonable price - not charity shop low, but very competitive with most of the old second hand shops.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,465
    This is interesting. And he was a supporter of the war.

    The device could be crude but the planning also suggests a level of sophistication. Possible he'd pissed off Putin or gone off message (most likely) or he was a sacrificial lamb for a false-flag but could it also be a rogue Kremlin/FSB sending a message?

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/st-petersburg-cafe-wagner-chief-bombed-killing-russian-military-blogger-vladlen-tatarsky-k9pkr060n?
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,445

    Is the Pope Catholic?

    This reminded me of bears (doing their business in the woods) which in turn has reminded me of one of many odd dreams I has last night - of dropping my phone whilst hiking in the Scottish Highlands and the phone being eaten by a bear-like creature - cross between a bear, a deer, a dinosaur and a capybara. There was a whole family of them, and a crazy naturalist *naturalist* lady who I was trying to convince to report the creatures to the proper authorities, without much success.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,208
    edited April 2023

    Heathener said:

    Good morning. Interesting.

    The hatred towards the Conservatives is continuing unabated. If you doubt this, go out into the streets and listen.

    I've never known anything like it. A seachange has occurred. They are going to get hammered at the next General Election.

    Are you going to post this at 5.30am every morning for the next 18 months?
    The tables seem to bear @Heathener out. Not only are there fewer Conservatives these days than Labour, the ones that remain are more likely to switch.

  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,586
    edited April 2023

    This is interesting. And he was a supporter of the war.

    The device could be crude but the planning also suggests a level of sophistication. Possible he'd pissed off Putin or gone off message (most likely) or he was a sacrificial lamb for a false-flag but could it also be a rogue Kremlin/FSB sending a message?

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/st-petersburg-cafe-wagner-chief-bombed-killing-russian-military-blogger-vladlen-tatarsky-k9pkr060n?

    Hopefully it’s Russians turning on each other, as their military slowly collapses in Ukraine.
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,723

    Quick question. Are Kindles still a thing? It must be years since I saw anyone use one or even mention them.

    I use my kindle every day, and have an idea Amazon has recently launched new models. Does Amazon release sales figures that differentiate between paper and kindle books?

    ETA it is possible demand for kindle devices has been reduced by saturation, less commuting, and use of kindle phone apps.
    I can't be doing with it. I have tried but reading a paper book is n times better for me..
    I find kindles easier to read. They are lighter, and I can adjust the text size up or down and even change the typeface. However, I am more likely to recall where I've read something in the dead tree version. The second-hand book market has shrunk: even charity shops decline them.
    The second hand book market hasn't shrunk, it's moved online and concentrated around a few large sellers. World of Books has a massive percentage of the second hand market. They buy for pennies, and sell for a reasonable price - not charity shop low, but very competitive with most of the old second hand shops.
    It used to be Abe books but I think Amazon bought them and the choice seems to have reduced dramatically. Where have all the second hand onlime bookshops gone?
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,465
    edited April 2023
    Guns, drugs, obesity, road deaths..

    It fuels demand for more healthcare as well as the access problems America already has.

    Problems at high-end as well with drug addicted wealthy families and higher proportion of suicides. The gap for young people between 20-40 is very sad.

    Not very strong correlated with race either, which is an obsession but not in the data.
  • jamesdoylejamesdoyle Posts: 790

    Quick question. Are Kindles still a thing? It must be years since I saw anyone use one or even mention them.

    I use my kindle every day, and have an idea Amazon has recently launched new models. Does Amazon release sales figures that differentiate between paper and kindle books?

    ETA it is possible demand for kindle devices has been reduced by saturation, less commuting, and use of kindle phone apps.
    I can't be doing with it. I have tried but reading a paper book is n times better for me..
    I find kindles easier to read. They are lighter, and I can adjust the text size up or down and even change the typeface. However, I am more likely to recall where I've read something in the dead tree version. The second-hand book market has shrunk: even charity shops decline them.
    The second hand book market hasn't shrunk, it's moved online and concentrated around a few large sellers. World of Books has a massive percentage of the second hand market. They buy for pennies, and sell for a reasonable price - not charity shop low, but very competitive with most of the old second hand shops.
    It used to be Abe books but I think Amazon bought them and the choice seems to have reduced dramatically. Where have all the second hand onlime bookshops gone?
    Abe has pretty much always been ridiculously priced.
    There are lots of small sellers online through eBay. And there are other online sellers like Second Story appearing a lot in my twitter and Facebook feeds.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,586

    Guns, drugs, obesity, road deaths..

    It fuels demand for more healthcare as well as the access problems America already has.

    Problems at high-end as well with drug addicted wealthy families and higher proportion of suicides. The gap for young people between 20-40 is very sad.

    Not very strong correlated with race either, which is an obsession but not in the data.

    The correlation is with social class, despite the media and campaign groups obsessing about race.

    Just as in the UK, it’s the WWC who get ignored.
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,723

    Quick question. Are Kindles still a thing? It must be years since I saw anyone use one or even mention them.

    I use my kindle every day, and have an idea Amazon has recently launched new models. Does Amazon release sales figures that differentiate between paper and kindle books?

    ETA it is possible demand for kindle devices has been reduced by saturation, less commuting, and use of kindle phone apps.
    I can't be doing with it. I have tried but reading a paper book is n times better for me..
    I find kindles easier to read. They are lighter, and I can adjust the text size up or down and even change the typeface. However, I am more likely to recall where I've read something in the dead tree version. The second-hand book market has shrunk: even charity shops decline them.
    The second hand book market hasn't shrunk, it's moved online and concentrated around a few large sellers. World of Books has a massive percentage of the second hand market. They buy for pennies, and sell for a reasonable price - not charity shop low, but very competitive with most of the old second hand shops.
    It used to be Abe books but I think Amazon bought them and the choice seems to have reduced dramatically. Where have all the second hand onlime bookshops gone?
    Abe has pretty much always been ridiculously priced.
    There are lots of small sellers online through eBay. And there are other online sellers like Second Story appearing a lot in my twitter and Facebook feeds.
    Ty
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,403

    This is interesting. And he was a supporter of the war.

    The device could be crude but the planning also suggests a level of sophistication. Possible he'd pissed off Putin or gone off message (most likely) or he was a sacrificial lamb for a false-flag but could it also be a rogue Kremlin/FSB sending a message?

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/st-petersburg-cafe-wagner-chief-bombed-killing-russian-military-blogger-vladlen-tatarsky-k9pkr060n?

    More likely it was a high profile message to Prigozhin not to get too uppity, with a little misdirection.

    Or possibly, a message from Prigozhin to somebody else.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,841

    The government has announced changes to driving tests and their administration, to be introduced at some unspecified time in summer (are there last minute glitches in the new software?). It is possible this might become an additional factor skewing younger voters for or against the government.

    The changes are: needing to wait 10 weeks before a new test after a failed test; no refunds of fees for cancelled tests within two weeks of the test date; electronic rather than paper pass certificates. I suspect the second measure might cause resentment; currently learners can cancel up to two days before and get the fee back.

    So basically a poorer, more expensive and less flexible public service for the same money. Quelle suprise.


    At least examiners can presumably not work from home.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,465
    Sandpit said:

    Guns, drugs, obesity, road deaths..

    It fuels demand for more healthcare as well as the access problems America already has.

    Problems at high-end as well with drug addicted wealthy families and higher proportion of suicides. The gap for young people between 20-40 is very sad.

    Not very strong correlated with race either, which is an obsession but not in the data.

    The correlation is with social class, despite the media and campaign groups obsessing about race.

    Just as in the UK, it’s the WWC who get ignored.
    I don't think most elites care about lower classes, except to view them with utter disdain or to romanticise and patronise them.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,841
    Sandpit said:

    This is interesting. And he was a supporter of the war.

    The device could be crude but the planning also suggests a level of sophistication. Possible he'd pissed off Putin or gone off message (most likely) or he was a sacrificial lamb for a false-flag but could it also be a rogue Kremlin/FSB sending a message?

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/st-petersburg-cafe-wagner-chief-bombed-killing-russian-military-blogger-vladlen-tatarsky-k9pkr060n?

    Hopefully it’s Russians turning on each other, as their military slowly collapses in Ukraine.
    I dunno, its got the feel of a Ukrainian hit squad to me, very like that one where they killed the daughter, Dugina, I think, rather than her father. Its a brave tactic when so much of the Ukrainian war effort is vested so heavily in 1 man.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,502
    This info about the Lab vote from 2019 being more solid than the Tory vote is important but unsurprising.

    It's not complicated. There are more centrist reasons to vote Labour than they were in 2019, and fewer centrist reasons to vote Tory. (This centrist can't think of any). Most voters are centrists.

    Centrist rejoiners/EFTAists don't have a party to vote for who could form a government at all.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,586
    DavidL said:

    Sandpit said:

    This is interesting. And he was a supporter of the war.

    The device could be crude but the planning also suggests a level of sophistication. Possible he'd pissed off Putin or gone off message (most likely) or he was a sacrificial lamb for a false-flag but could it also be a rogue Kremlin/FSB sending a message?

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/st-petersburg-cafe-wagner-chief-bombed-killing-russian-military-blogger-vladlen-tatarsky-k9pkr060n?

    Hopefully it’s Russians turning on each other, as their military slowly collapses in Ukraine.
    I dunno, its got the feel of a Ukrainian hit squad to me, very like that one where they killed the daughter, Dugina, I think, rather than her father. Its a brave tactic when so much of the Ukrainian war effort is vested so heavily in 1 man.
    I can cope with Ukranian hit squad too. Let every high-profile supporter of the war in Russia, fear for their own life every hour of every day, just as every Ukranian has felt for the past 13 months.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,368

    Sandpit said:

    Guns, drugs, obesity, road deaths..

    It fuels demand for more healthcare as well as the access problems America already has.

    Problems at high-end as well with drug addicted wealthy families and higher proportion of suicides. The gap for young people between 20-40 is very sad.

    Not very strong correlated with race either, which is an obsession but not in the data.

    The correlation is with social class, despite the media and campaign groups obsessing about race.

    Just as in the UK, it’s the WWC who get ignored.
    I don't think most elites care about lower classes, except to view them with utter disdain or to romanticise and patronise them.
    They care a lot about lower classes - specifically they care about keeping them in their place.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,084

    Sandpit said:

    Guns, drugs, obesity, road deaths..

    It fuels demand for more healthcare as well as the access problems America already has.

    Problems at high-end as well with drug addicted wealthy families and higher proportion of suicides. The gap for young people between 20-40 is very sad.

    Not very strong correlated with race either, which is an obsession but not in the data.

    The correlation is with social class, despite the media and campaign groups obsessing about race.

    Just as in the UK, it’s the WWC who get ignored.
    I don't think most elites care about lower classes, except to view them with utter disdain or to romanticise and patronise them.
    They care a lot about lower classes - specifically they care about keeping them in their place.
    Also, their votes.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,957

    Quick question. Are Kindles still a thing? It must be years since I saw anyone use one or even mention them.

    I use my kindle every day, and have an idea Amazon has recently launched new models. Does Amazon release sales figures that differentiate between paper and kindle books?

    ETA it is possible demand for kindle devices has been reduced by saturation, less commuting, and use of kindle phone apps.
    Much as I like the physicality of holding something to read - books or, hitherto, a kindle - the modern fact is that putting the kindle app on your mobile allows you all the benefits of being able to read on the move as the kindle did but saves carrying an extra device.

    It's just a question of braving it out if everyone thinks you're on tiktok or playing candy crush.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,291

    Is the Pope Catholic?

    According to Opus Dei, no.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,084
    Dura_Ace said:

    Morning all! I agree with @Heathener - the public mood is mutinous. And the latest Tory obscenity is the attack on British men of Pakistani heritage.

    Yes, we have a few examples of Pakistani "grooming gangs" which the authorities ignored. But she's basically just given all the white men who do this the green light to not be suspected.

    They *can't* be a nonce. They have white skin. Just like Jimmy Saville . This is crayon politics aimed at genuinely ignorant people who have had this weaponised by certain newspapers as a stick to beat anyone with funny skin. Or anyone who actually has a faith unlike the ignorant white racist.

    Before anyone says I am being exclusionary, I am not. Some heinous acts have been carried out by British men of Pakistani heritage. As well as by white men of non-Pakistani heritage. Personally I think we should go after criminals - hard to do when the government have gutted the justice system.

    It's got nothing to do with the cultural provenance of the perpetrators; it's all about the social class of the victims. If they had been beasting girls from Roedean instead of chavs from care homes they would have been locked up and the key thrown away at the first sniff.

    The tories want to make it a racial issue because that appeals to their feebleminded gammony members.
    The evidence suggests otherwise:

    Child sexual abuse: Call to force residential schools to report allegations
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-60574347

    The multiple cases of child abuse in residential schools, of all kinds, is what led to the recommendation for making the failure to report abuse a crime.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,674
    algarkirk said:

    This info about the Lab vote from 2019 being more solid than the Tory vote is important but unsurprising.

    It's not complicated. There are more centrist reasons to vote Labour than they were in 2019, and fewer centrist reasons to vote Tory. (This centrist can't think of any). Most voters are centrists.

    Centrist rejoiners/EFTAists don't have a party to vote for who could form a government at all.

    Simpler than that really. If you stuck with Labour in 2019, then BJO aside, will still be voting Labour.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677
    ydoethur said:

    This is interesting. And he was a supporter of the war.

    The device could be crude but the planning also suggests a level of sophistication. Possible he'd pissed off Putin or gone off message (most likely) or he was a sacrificial lamb for a false-flag but could it also be a rogue Kremlin/FSB sending a message?

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/st-petersburg-cafe-wagner-chief-bombed-killing-russian-military-blogger-vladlen-tatarsky-k9pkr060n?

    More likely it was a high profile message to Prigozhin not to get too uppity, with a little misdirection.

    Or possibly, a message from Prigozhin to somebody else.
    There are currently three anti-Kremlin factions, referred to by Russian media as the 'Sixth Estate'. You've got the Tsarists typified by I.V. Girkin, recrudescent Stalinists such as mega influential Telegram blogger Murz and Prigozhin who, to the limited extent that he has any governing ideology, is ancap.

    Whatever follows VVP will emerge from one of those three strands and will have to do deals that satisfy the other two.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,957
    On topic

    I love headers that speak to me, a disaffected 2019 Cons voter, directly. And I know I'm not alone on this board.

    I currently couldn't vote for the Cons, nor for Lab.

    Cons would have to further detoxify and stop formulating policy for and only for the ERG, while Lab would have to lose the class anger and realise that if they want to appeal to the broad masses they must stop seeing the country in terms of "us" and "them".

    Of course they (Lab) can continue with the us and them and eat the rich thing but as we have seen in the past this is a short term strategy as they will find out soon enough that there aren't enough of "them" to provide taxes for "us" and hence will inevitably turn on the next cohort down in wealth. And then the next. And then everyone is paying more which won't be what they will have voted for.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,674
    Dura_Ace said:

    Morning all! I agree with @Heathener - the public mood is mutinous. And the latest Tory obscenity is the attack on British men of Pakistani heritage.

    Yes, we have a few examples of Pakistani "grooming gangs" which the authorities ignored. But she's basically just given all the white men who do this the green light to not be suspected.

    They *can't* be a nonce. They have white skin. Just like Jimmy Saville . This is crayon politics aimed at genuinely ignorant people who have had this weaponised by certain newspapers as a stick to beat anyone with funny skin. Or anyone who actually has a faith unlike the ignorant white racist.

    Before anyone says I am being exclusionary, I am not. Some heinous acts have been carried out by British men of Pakistani heritage. As well as by white men of non-Pakistani heritage. Personally I think we should go after criminals - hard to do when the government have gutted the justice system.

    It's got nothing to do with the cultural provenance of the perpetrators; it's all about the social class of the victims. If they had been beasting girls from Roedean instead of chavs from care homes they would have been locked up and the key thrown away at the first sniff.

    The tories want to make it a racial issue because that appeals to their feebleminded gammony members.
    I think too that Braverman and Sunak are not comfortable describing Asian grooming gangs, and want to emphasise the Muslim nature of them. It plays well to the Hindutva tendencies of many British Indians.
  • Quick question. Are Kindles still a thing? It must be years since I saw anyone use one or even mention them.

    Yes, I still see people using them on buses during the commute. Are buses still "a thing" in your world?
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,372

    Morning all! I agree with @Heathener - the public mood is mutinous. And the latest Tory obscenity is the attack on British men of Pakistani heritage.

    Yes, we have a few examples of Pakistani "grooming gangs" which the authorities ignored. But she's basically just given all the white men who do this the green light to not be suspected.

    They *can't* be a nonce. They have white skin. Just like Jimmy Saville . This is crayon politics aimed at genuinely ignorant people who have had this weaponised by certain newspapers as a stick to beat anyone with funny skin. Or anyone who actually has a faith unlike the ignorant white racist.

    Before anyone says I am being exclusionary, I am not. Some heinous acts have been carried out by British men of Pakistani heritage. As well as by white men of non-Pakistani heritage. Personally I think we should go after criminals - hard to do when the government have gutted the justice system.

    I feel for you

    an Asian PM and and Asian home secretary so you cant cry racist.

    You must be gutted.
    Laughable. This is a policy written in crayon to stoke racism. BTW "Asian" is itself racist when you are claiming that a Hindu PM and an Indian-heritage HS are the same as people of Pakistani origin.

    Can't be racist? You ever heard Indians and Pakistanis going at each other? This is someone from one heritage branding people of a different heritage to all be perverts. It is *inherently racist.

    Growing up in Rochdale in the 1980s, "paki" what white person shorthand for all the Asians in the town. Despite the reality that we had sizable communities from India. Kashmir. Bangladesh. And yes Pakistan. Branding anyone with brown skin as a unitary group - "Asian" in your case - is as ignorant as my Gran calling the Indian family next door "the Pakis"

    It is 2023. Really sad to read that level of ignorance is live and well. Then again we know this - that policy is aimed square at them.
    Ive sat in rooms with hindus sikhs and buddhists and what they say about the muslims would have me put in jail if I said it.

    And thats the point, you and your pastey faced cohorts run around yelling racism when there is no equal application of the law and all that counts is which group meets your virtue signalling twaddle this week.

    So having experienced Asian on Asian racism yourself - as I have - why have you said that the HS can't be racist towards a different Asian heritage?

    You mention equal application of the law. Growing up in Rochdale the local monster was Cyril Smith. Who got away with it. In more recent times the monsters have been Pakistani heritage. Who got away with it.

    If inbuilt racism is the reason why we don't apply the law equally, why do we keep having appalling cases where mass offenders eventually get caught? If racism is why the Pakistani heritage gang members took so long to get caught, was it also racism that the same system ignored Smith?

    Not the smartest thing you have ever posted.
    It was plain that there was a very great reluctance on the part of the authorities to deal with the concerns raised by Ann Cryer and Sarah Champion due to its being “ a cultural matter.”

    But overall, I’ve reached the conclusion that too many people in authority really are unbothered by child abuse, unless it’s done to their own children.
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,164

    Quick question. Are Kindles still a thing? It must be years since I saw anyone use one or even mention them.

    Use mine every night.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,084
    Sean_F said:

    Heathener said:



    And then I stop and realise I'm being brazenly hypocritical because I would have probably answered in such a way that I would have been included in either the 56% or the 40%. How many other PBers fall into one or other of those two categories?

    I have voted for 4 political parties in my lifetime: all 3 main ones and the Greens.

    I would never vote for this current bunch of hate-filled immoral Conservatives, but they were not ever thus.
    Consider me sceptical that you have ever voted Conservative.
    Quite a number of us who have feel similarly about the current bunch, though.
    That's your problem.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,670
    edited April 2023
    More anecdata. My uncle in law, a Bentley driving dyed-in-the-wool Tory, was out leafleting for Labour because the Tories had been in too long and made too many mistakes. I was gobsmacked.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,502
    TOPPING said:

    On topic

    I love headers that speak to me, a disaffected 2019 Cons voter, directly. And I know I'm not alone on this board.

    I currently couldn't vote for the Cons, nor for Lab.

    Cons would have to further detoxify and stop formulating policy for and only for the ERG, while Lab would have to lose the class anger and realise that if they want to appeal to the broad masses they must stop seeing the country in terms of "us" and "them".

    Of course they (Lab) can continue with the us and them and eat the rich thing but as we have seen in the past this is a short term strategy as they will find out soon enough that there aren't enough of "them" to provide taxes for "us" and hence will inevitably turn on the next cohort down in wealth. And then the next. And then everyone is paying more which won't be what they will have voted for.

    Interesting. But for me, as a disaffected Tory at GEs, I could and shall vote Labour this time. I never thought once about voting for Blair.

    I am sure the party membership is pretty ghastly. But so are they all. SKS and generally those round him are not 'eat the Tory' types (of course there are exceptions). And SKS has a degree of humility and lack of judgemental certainty Blair didn't have (ultimately this destroyed him).

    Lab/LD cobbling will be the best option.

  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,957
    I missed what has been said about Asian gangs but it is quite clear that this Cons govt is retreating to its core support which, since Brexit, includes a pretty ugly group of people who lap up the othering both of aliens invading us in boats, and actions against the enemy amongst us.

    They really need to fucking stop this.

    How we laughed at Dave's Hug a Hoodie but he realised that the Cons needed to detoxify and this was a signal that they were intent on doing this.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,403
    Sandpit said:

    DavidL said:

    Sandpit said:

    This is interesting. And he was a supporter of the war.

    The device could be crude but the planning also suggests a level of sophistication. Possible he'd pissed off Putin or gone off message (most likely) or he was a sacrificial lamb for a false-flag but could it also be a rogue Kremlin/FSB sending a message?

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/st-petersburg-cafe-wagner-chief-bombed-killing-russian-military-blogger-vladlen-tatarsky-k9pkr060n?

    Hopefully it’s Russians turning on each other, as their military slowly collapses in Ukraine.
    I dunno, its got the feel of a Ukrainian hit squad to me, very like that one where they killed the daughter, Dugina, I think, rather than her father. Its a brave tactic when so much of the Ukrainian war effort is vested so heavily in 1 man.
    I can cope with Ukranian hit squad too. Let every high-profile supporter of the war in Russia, fear for their own life every hour of every day, just as every Ukranian has felt for the past 13 months.
    The one thing we can be certain of is it wasn't mad Vlad. No windows were involved.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,084
    Sean_F said:

    Morning all! I agree with @Heathener - the public mood is mutinous. And the latest Tory obscenity is the attack on British men of Pakistani heritage.

    Yes, we have a few examples of Pakistani "grooming gangs" which the authorities ignored. But she's basically just given all the white men who do this the green light to not be suspected.

    They *can't* be a nonce. They have white skin. Just like Jimmy Saville . This is crayon politics aimed at genuinely ignorant people who have had this weaponised by certain newspapers as a stick to beat anyone with funny skin. Or anyone who actually has a faith unlike the ignorant white racist.

    Before anyone says I am being exclusionary, I am not. Some heinous acts have been carried out by British men of Pakistani heritage. As well as by white men of non-Pakistani heritage. Personally I think we should go after criminals - hard to do when the government have gutted the justice system.

    I feel for you

    an Asian PM and and Asian home secretary so you cant cry racist.

    You must be gutted.
    Laughable. This is a policy written in crayon to stoke racism. BTW "Asian" is itself racist when you are claiming that a Hindu PM and an Indian-heritage HS are the same as people of Pakistani origin.

    Can't be racist? You ever heard Indians and Pakistanis going at each other? This is someone from one heritage branding people of a different heritage to all be perverts. It is *inherently racist.

    Growing up in Rochdale in the 1980s, "paki" what white person shorthand for all the Asians in the town. Despite the reality that we had sizable communities from India. Kashmir. Bangladesh. And yes Pakistan. Branding anyone with brown skin as a unitary group - "Asian" in your case - is as ignorant as my Gran calling the Indian family next door "the Pakis"

    It is 2023. Really sad to read that level of ignorance is live and well. Then again we know this - that policy is aimed square at them.
    Ive sat in rooms with hindus sikhs and buddhists and what they say about the muslims would have me put in jail if I said it.

    And thats the point, you and your pastey faced cohorts run around yelling racism when there is no equal application of the law and all that counts is which group meets your virtue signalling twaddle this week.

    So having experienced Asian on Asian racism yourself - as I have - why have you said that the HS can't be racist towards a different Asian heritage?

    You mention equal application of the law. Growing up in Rochdale the local monster was Cyril Smith. Who got away with it. In more recent times the monsters have been Pakistani heritage. Who got away with it.

    If inbuilt racism is the reason why we don't apply the law equally, why do we keep having appalling cases where mass offenders eventually get caught? If racism is why the Pakistani heritage gang members took so long to get caught, was it also racism that the same system ignored Smith?

    Not the smartest thing you have ever posted.
    It was plain that there was a very great reluctance on the part of the authorities to deal with the concerns raised by Ann Cryer and Sarah Champion due to its being “ a cultural matter.”

    But overall, I’ve reached the conclusion that too many people in authority really are unbothered by child abuse, unless it’s done to their own children.
    Precisely that, which is why the 'political correctness' spin is objectionable.
    Institutions of all kinds - public schools; churches; councils; etc - have all displayed reluctance to deal with allegations of abuse.

    It's more about prioritising the institution over the individual - particularly if that individual is a child.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,440
    Morning all. I’ve never voted for a Conservative candidate as such, although when my father studies, the Conservative candidate in the county council elections many years ago I did vote for him.
    Otherwise it’s been Labour, Liberal, LibDem, Green, or independent. To some extent, it depended on whether the election was national or local. I’m more likely to switch my vote in a local election.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,957
    algarkirk said:

    TOPPING said:

    On topic

    I love headers that speak to me, a disaffected 2019 Cons voter, directly. And I know I'm not alone on this board.

    I currently couldn't vote for the Cons, nor for Lab.

    Cons would have to further detoxify and stop formulating policy for and only for the ERG, while Lab would have to lose the class anger and realise that if they want to appeal to the broad masses they must stop seeing the country in terms of "us" and "them".

    Of course they (Lab) can continue with the us and them and eat the rich thing but as we have seen in the past this is a short term strategy as they will find out soon enough that there aren't enough of "them" to provide taxes for "us" and hence will inevitably turn on the next cohort down in wealth. And then the next. And then everyone is paying more which won't be what they will have voted for.

    Interesting. But for me, as a disaffected Tory at GEs, I could and shall vote Labour this time. I never thought once about voting for Blair.

    I am sure the party membership is pretty ghastly. But so are they all. SKS and generally those round him are not 'eat the Tory' types (of course there are exceptions). And SKS has a degree of humility and lack of judgemental certainty Blair didn't have (ultimately this destroyed him).

    Lab/LD cobbling will be the best option.

    Apart from being a recipient and target demographic, which I can live with, it is the disingenuousness of the eat the rich mentality and rhetoric that is a barrier to me voting Lab. They pretend that a wealth tax on "the rich" is not only well-deserved (fair enough) but will pay for the hundreds of billions required (and announced in 2019) for the eg "Green Transformation Fund" and the "Social Transformation Fund" (total cost: £400bn in 2019 money).
  • Wulfrun_PhilWulfrun_Phil Posts: 4,780
    edited April 2023
    On thread, delving deeper into the Opinium tables throws up some interesting insights into the 5% of Green voters and 7% of Reform voters in that Opinium poll.

    Of the Green voters, only 24% would definitely or "probably in the future" consider voting Conservative, whereas 67% would consider voting Labour. No real surprises there, if the 5% Green vote is squeezed at a GE it would be substantively to Labour's benefit.

    Reform is more interesting. 53% would definitely or "probably in the future" consider voting Conservative, but 39% would consider voting Labour. What is a surprise is that the figures are so close, so while any erosion of the 7% Reform vote is going to help the Conservatives the benefit to them won't be as marked as might have been assumed.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,403
    edited April 2023

    Morning all. I’ve never voted for a Conservative candidate as such, although when my father studies, the Conservative candidate in the county council elections many years ago I did vote for him.
    Otherwise it’s been Labour, Liberal, LibDem, Green, or independent. To some extent, it depended on whether the election was national or local. I’m more likely to switch my vote in a local election.

    I could vote for a Conservative. But this lot are about as conservative as Mikhail Gorbachev.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,372
    Nigelb said:

    Sean_F said:

    Morning all! I agree with @Heathener - the public mood is mutinous. And the latest Tory obscenity is the attack on British men of Pakistani heritage.

    Yes, we have a few examples of Pakistani "grooming gangs" which the authorities ignored. But she's basically just given all the white men who do this the green light to not be suspected.

    They *can't* be a nonce. They have white skin. Just like Jimmy Saville . This is crayon politics aimed at genuinely ignorant people who have had this weaponised by certain newspapers as a stick to beat anyone with funny skin. Or anyone who actually has a faith unlike the ignorant white racist.

    Before anyone says I am being exclusionary, I am not. Some heinous acts have been carried out by British men of Pakistani heritage. As well as by white men of non-Pakistani heritage. Personally I think we should go after criminals - hard to do when the government have gutted the justice system.

    I feel for you

    an Asian PM and and Asian home secretary so you cant cry racist.

    You must be gutted.
    Laughable. This is a policy written in crayon to stoke racism. BTW "Asian" is itself racist when you are claiming that a Hindu PM and an Indian-heritage HS are the same as people of Pakistani origin.

    Can't be racist? You ever heard Indians and Pakistanis going at each other? This is someone from one heritage branding people of a different heritage to all be perverts. It is *inherently racist.

    Growing up in Rochdale in the 1980s, "paki" what white person shorthand for all the Asians in the town. Despite the reality that we had sizable communities from India. Kashmir. Bangladesh. And yes Pakistan. Branding anyone with brown skin as a unitary group - "Asian" in your case - is as ignorant as my Gran calling the Indian family next door "the Pakis"

    It is 2023. Really sad to read that level of ignorance is live and well. Then again we know this - that policy is aimed square at them.
    Ive sat in rooms with hindus sikhs and buddhists and what they say about the muslims would have me put in jail if I said it.

    And thats the point, you and your pastey faced cohorts run around yelling racism when there is no equal application of the law and all that counts is which group meets your virtue signalling twaddle this week.

    So having experienced Asian on Asian racism yourself - as I have - why have you said that the HS can't be racist towards a different Asian heritage?

    You mention equal application of the law. Growing up in Rochdale the local monster was Cyril Smith. Who got away with it. In more recent times the monsters have been Pakistani heritage. Who got away with it.

    If inbuilt racism is the reason why we don't apply the law equally, why do we keep having appalling cases where mass offenders eventually get caught? If racism is why the Pakistani heritage gang members took so long to get caught, was it also racism that the same system ignored Smith?

    Not the smartest thing you have ever posted.
    It was plain that there was a very great reluctance on the part of the authorities to deal with the concerns raised by Ann Cryer and Sarah Champion due to its being “ a cultural matter.”

    But overall, I’ve reached the conclusion that too many people in authority really are unbothered by child abuse, unless it’s done to their own children.
    Precisely that, which is why the 'political correctness' spin is objectionable.
    Institutions of all kinds - public schools; churches; councils; etc - have all displayed reluctance to deal with allegations of abuse.

    It's more about prioritising the institution over the individual - particularly if that individual is a child.
    Sir Lewis Harcourt was well known to be paedophile for decades. This was considered an amusing quirk, among the political circles he moved in. It was only when he tried to force himself on a friend’s son that it all went to pieces for him. A century on, not much has changed.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677
    Sandpit said:

    DavidL said:

    Sandpit said:

    This is interesting. And he was a supporter of the war.

    The device could be crude but the planning also suggests a level of sophistication. Possible he'd pissed off Putin or gone off message (most likely) or he was a sacrificial lamb for a false-flag but could it also be a rogue Kremlin/FSB sending a message?

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/st-petersburg-cafe-wagner-chief-bombed-killing-russian-military-blogger-vladlen-tatarsky-k9pkr060n?

    Hopefully it’s Russians turning on each other, as their military slowly collapses in Ukraine.
    I dunno, its got the feel of a Ukrainian hit squad to me, very like that one where they killed the daughter, Dugina, I think, rather than her father. Its a brave tactic when so much of the Ukrainian war effort is vested so heavily in 1 man.
    I can cope with Ukranian hit squad too. Let every high-profile supporter of the war in Russia, fear for their own life every hour of every day, just as every Ukranian has felt for the past 13 months.
    Fomin/Tatarsky was Ukrainian.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,465
    Sean_F said:

    Morning all! I agree with @Heathener - the public mood is mutinous. And the latest Tory obscenity is the attack on British men of Pakistani heritage.

    Yes, we have a few examples of Pakistani "grooming gangs" which the authorities ignored. But she's basically just given all the white men who do this the green light to not be suspected.

    They *can't* be a nonce. They have white skin. Just like Jimmy Saville . This is crayon politics aimed at genuinely ignorant people who have had this weaponised by certain newspapers as a stick to beat anyone with funny skin. Or anyone who actually has a faith unlike the ignorant white racist.

    Before anyone says I am being exclusionary, I am not. Some heinous acts have been carried out by British men of Pakistani heritage. As well as by white men of non-Pakistani heritage. Personally I think we should go after criminals - hard to do when the government have gutted the justice system.

    I feel for you

    an Asian PM and and Asian home secretary so you cant cry racist.

    You must be gutted.
    Laughable. This is a policy written in crayon to stoke racism. BTW "Asian" is itself racist when you are claiming that a Hindu PM and an Indian-heritage HS are the same as people of Pakistani origin.

    Can't be racist? You ever heard Indians and Pakistanis going at each other? This is someone from one heritage branding people of a different heritage to all be perverts. It is *inherently racist.

    Growing up in Rochdale in the 1980s, "paki" what white person shorthand for all the Asians in the town. Despite the reality that we had sizable communities from India. Kashmir. Bangladesh. And yes Pakistan. Branding anyone with brown skin as a unitary group - "Asian" in your case - is as ignorant as my Gran calling the Indian family next door "the Pakis"

    It is 2023. Really sad to read that level of ignorance is live and well. Then again we know this - that policy is aimed square at them.
    Ive sat in rooms with hindus sikhs and buddhists and what they say about the muslims would have me put in jail if I said it.

    And thats the point, you and your pastey faced cohorts run around yelling racism when there is no equal application of the law and all that counts is which group meets your virtue signalling twaddle this week.

    So having experienced Asian on Asian racism yourself - as I have - why have you said that the HS can't be racist towards a different Asian heritage?

    You mention equal application of the law. Growing up in Rochdale the local monster was Cyril Smith. Who got away with it. In more recent times the monsters have been Pakistani heritage. Who got away with it.

    If inbuilt racism is the reason why we don't apply the law equally, why do we keep having appalling cases where mass offenders eventually get caught? If racism is why the Pakistani heritage gang members took so long to get caught, was it also racism that the same system ignored Smith?

    Not the smartest thing you have ever posted.
    It was plain that there was a very great reluctance on the part of the authorities to deal with the concerns raised by Ann Cryer and Sarah Champion due to its being “ a cultural matter.”

    But overall, I’ve reached the conclusion that too many people in authority really are unbothered by child abuse, unless it’s done to their own children.
    It's very sad, Britons are far more interested in animals than children.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,084
    Justice Dept. said to have more evidence of possible Trump obstruction at Mar-a-Lago

    Ex-staffer’s emails, texts are guiding investigators, who increasingly suspect Trump went through boxes after subpoena
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2023/04/02/trump-mar-a-lago-obstruction-classified/

    This might prove a much more clear cut prosecution than the Stormy D affair.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,008
    Given the Conservatives won a landslide victory in 2019 and Labour has a clear lead in the polls it would be astonishing if 2019 Conservative voters were not more likely to switch to Labour than the reverse
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,008

    Sean_F said:

    Morning all! I agree with @Heathener - the public mood is mutinous. And the latest Tory obscenity is the attack on British men of Pakistani heritage.

    Yes, we have a few examples of Pakistani "grooming gangs" which the authorities ignored. But she's basically just given all the white men who do this the green light to not be suspected.

    They *can't* be a nonce. They have white skin. Just like Jimmy Saville . This is crayon politics aimed at genuinely ignorant people who have had this weaponised by certain newspapers as a stick to beat anyone with funny skin. Or anyone who actually has a faith unlike the ignorant white racist.

    Before anyone says I am being exclusionary, I am not. Some heinous acts have been carried out by British men of Pakistani heritage. As well as by white men of non-Pakistani heritage. Personally I think we should go after criminals - hard to do when the government have gutted the justice system.

    I feel for you

    an Asian PM and and Asian home secretary so you cant cry racist.

    You must be gutted.
    Laughable. This is a policy written in crayon to stoke racism. BTW "Asian" is itself racist when you are claiming that a Hindu PM and an Indian-heritage HS are the same as people of Pakistani origin.

    Can't be racist? You ever heard Indians and Pakistanis going at each other? This is someone from one heritage branding people of a different heritage to all be perverts. It is *inherently racist.

    Growing up in Rochdale in the 1980s, "paki" what white person shorthand for all the Asians in the town. Despite the reality that we had sizable communities from India. Kashmir. Bangladesh. And yes Pakistan. Branding anyone with brown skin as a unitary group - "Asian" in your case - is as ignorant as my Gran calling the Indian family next door "the Pakis"

    It is 2023. Really sad to read that level of ignorance is live and well. Then again we know this - that policy is aimed square at them.
    Ive sat in rooms with hindus sikhs and buddhists and what they say about the muslims would have me put in jail if I said it.

    And thats the point, you and your pastey faced cohorts run around yelling racism when there is no equal application of the law and all that counts is which group meets your virtue signalling twaddle this week.

    So having experienced Asian on Asian racism yourself - as I have - why have you said that the HS can't be racist towards a different Asian heritage?

    You mention equal application of the law. Growing up in Rochdale the local monster was Cyril Smith. Who got away with it. In more recent times the monsters have been Pakistani heritage. Who got away with it.

    If inbuilt racism is the reason why we don't apply the law equally, why do we keep having appalling cases where mass offenders eventually get caught? If racism is why the Pakistani heritage gang members took so long to get caught, was it also racism that the same system ignored Smith?

    Not the smartest thing you have ever posted.
    It was plain that there was a very great reluctance on the part of the authorities to deal with the concerns raised by Ann Cryer and Sarah Champion due to its being “ a cultural matter.”

    But overall, I’ve reached the conclusion that too many people in authority really are unbothered by child abuse, unless it’s done to their own children.
    It's very sad, Britons are far more interested in animals than children.
    What has that got to do with failures of Northern councils?
This discussion has been closed.