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Will Johnson ever be able to shake off partygate? – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,620
edited March 2023 in General
imageWill Johnson ever be able to shake off partygate? – politicalbetting.com

In the next Conservative leader betting Boris Johnson has now slipped back from the favourite slot following the latest moves in relation to what has become known as partygate.

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 123,207
    Nadine Dorries will lose her shit if Boris Johnson gets suspended.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 123,207
    Frightening. Ron De Santis is a fascist, this reminds me of the law Robert Mugabe introduced which made it a crime to insult the President of Zimbabwe.

    A new bill introduced in the Florida legislature would require “bloggers who write about Gov. Ron DeSantis, Attorney General Ashley Moody, and other members of the Florida executive cabinet or legislature to register with the state or face fines.”

    https://twitter.com/JuddLegum/status/1631415919749615616
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 123,207
    Oh America, the GOP would be proscribed in the UK.

    South Carolina Republicans have introduced a bill that would allow women to be executed if they have an abortion. The bill is also vague enough to potentially include miscarriages.

    https://twitter.com/NoLieWithBTC/status/1631661957735669761
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 123,207
    On topic, it's the cover up that gets you.

    However, the committee said that its work over the past ten months had been slowed because the government had tried to withhold evidence. In August, when Johnson was still prime minister, the government supplied “documents which were so heavily redacted as to render them devoid of any evidential value”, the committee said. Eventually in November, when Sunak was prime minister, “unredacted disclosure . . . was finally provided”.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/mps-could-punish-boris-johnson-with-suspension-smkpswshq
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,815
    FPT: Good morning, everyone.

    F1: very nicely setup ahead of third practice and first qualifying of the year (starts at 3pm).

    One downside is that, from what I've heard (didn't watch practice live) Stroll really shouldn't be in the car and his wrist pain is causing him problems.

    Mr. Eagles, "Nadine Dorries will lose her shit if Boris Johnson gets suspended. "

    How dreadful.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 64,037
    I say, we take off and nuke the whole site from orbit.

    Only way to be sure.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,815
    Utterly OT, but Norse mythology fans might like this: https://thaddeusthesixth.blogspot.com/2023/03/review-tales-of-norse-mythology-by.html
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 22,107
    The slow process of condemning Boris to the history books is painful, but it does seem that Sunak is winning the war.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 16,721
    TheScreamingEagles said:

    Frightening. Ron De Santis is a fascist, this reminds me of the law Robert Mugabe introduced which made it a crime to insult the President of Zimbabwe.

    A new bill introduced in the Florida legislature would require “bloggers who write about Gov. Ron DeSantis, Attorney General Ashley Moody, and other members of the Florida executive cabinet or legislature to register with the state or face fines.”

    https://twitter.com/JuddLegum/status/1631415919749615616

    People who think that RdS is a less extreme or more sensible version of Trump really aren't paying attention.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 123,207
    West Ham United used club money to make a £9,000 donation to the Conservative party last year. The donation was revealed by documents published by the Electoral Commission this week and was made on 26 September. The money was accepted by the Conservatives on 3 October, less than a month before Liz Truss was forced to resign as prime minister.

    https://www.theguardian.com/football/2023/mar/03/west-ham-used-club-money-to-donate-conservative-party-2022
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 22,107
    TheScreamingEagles said:

    West Ham United used club money to make a £9,000 donation to the Conservative party last year. The donation was revealed by documents published by the Electoral Commission this week and was made on 26 September. The money was accepted by the Conservatives on 3 October, less than a month before Liz Truss was forced to resign as prime minister.

    https://www.theguardian.com/football/2023/mar/03/west-ham-used-club-money-to-donate-conservative-party-2022

    I'm forever blowing bubbles,
    Pretty bubbles in the air,
    They fly so high, nearly reach the sky,
    Then like my dreams they fade and die.

    Truss
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 80,060
    TheScreamingEagles said:

    Frightening. Ron De Santis is a fascist, this reminds me of the law Robert Mugabe introduced which made it a crime to insult the President of Zimbabwe.

    A new bill introduced in the Florida legislature would require “bloggers who write about Gov. Ron DeSantis, Attorney General Ashley Moody, and other members of the Florida executive cabinet or legislature to register with the state or face fines.”

    https://twitter.com/JuddLegum/status/1631415919749615616

    He’s a seriously dangerous fucker, masquerading as the rational alternative to Trump.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,815
    Speaking of football, surprised there was only a single goal in the Napoli/Lazio match yesterday, and even more so that Lazio won away. Luckily, Napoli will still be at least 15 points clear in the lead after others complete their matches this weekend.

    That DeSantis bill is rather.... tyrannical.

    "You haff been blogging about ze leader. Your name vill also go on ze list!"
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 52,545
    TheScreamingEagles said:

    Oh America, the GOP would be proscribed in the UK.

    South Carolina Republicans have introduced a bill that would allow women to be executed if they have an abortion. The bill is also vague enough to potentially include miscarriages.

    https://twitter.com/NoLieWithBTC/status/1631661957735669761

    America is an insane place.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 80,060
    If anyone still needs reminding of Johnson’s mendacity, watch the video.

    https://mobile.twitter.com/sturdyAlex/status/1631640387688312837
    Important to remember what Boris Johnson said about Sue Gray's report at the time. How "profoundly grateful" he was, how "humbled", how fully he "accepted responsibility", "looked in the mirror" and "learned lessons".
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 52,545
    Stench getting closer to Sunak.


  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 129,470
    TheScreamingEagles said:

    Oh America, the GOP would be proscribed in the UK.

    South Carolina Republicans have introduced a bill that would allow women to be executed if they have an abortion. The bill is also vague enough to potentially include miscarriages.

    https://twitter.com/NoLieWithBTC/status/1631661957735669761

    Abortion was illegal in the UK and we had capital punishment until the 1960s. Though obviously not the latter for the former and zero chance of this proposal actually becoming law
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 80,060
    Morris_Dancer said:

    Speaking of football, surprised there was only a single goal in the Napoli/Lazio match yesterday, and even more so that Lazio won away. Luckily, Napoli will still be at least 15 points clear in the lead after others complete their matches this weekend.

    That DeSantis bill is rather.... tyrannical.

    "You haff been blogging about ze leader. Your name vill also go on ze list!"

    He likes lists.

    Democratic AGs slam DeSantis for seeking info on college students receiving gender-affirming care
    https://thehill.com/homenews/state-watch/3883632-democratic-ags-slam-desantis-for-seeking-info-on-college-students-receiving-gender-affirming-care/
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    The Oaf could shake off Partygate if Partygate had been an isolated incident. But it wasn’t. It is merely one event in an endless stream of career-long lies. Not just little fibs, but huge whopping stinkers.

    The man’s mental development stopped at age 15. He is a delinquent.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 52,593
    And the Telegraph journalist missed the story altogether, asleep on the job….
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 52,545
    It looks as if the government doesn't like market forces after all. How could that be?

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-64827246
  • boulayboulay Posts: 6,815
    Foxy said:

    Stench getting closer to Sunak.


    Hancock is just such a massive arse. It seems like he was so high on his own supply and ran round trying to monetise himself that he didn’t actually engage his brain.

    Not only did he do his old wanting to be a celeb by going on reality but he handed over huge amounts of sensitive info to a wildcard journo.

    I hope he hasn’t blown all his jungle money as I don’t think he’s going to be the catch he thought he would be when it comes to future paid roles and gigs.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 80,060
    IanB2 said:

    And the Telegraph journalist missed the story altogether, asleep on the job….

    The Sun and Express are so on the ball, they manage to appear twice in the header.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 44,836
    Nigelb said:

    IanB2 said:

    And the Telegraph journalist missed the story altogether, asleep on the job….

    The Sun and Express are so on the ball, they manage to appear twice in the header.
    Two balls each.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 44,836
    Foxy said:

    Stench getting closer to Sunak.


    Indeed. This is an example of the studies of the scheme. I see the particularly imaginative use of the weather to argue that there really is a signal caused by restaurant usage.

    https://academic.oup.com/ej/article/132/643/1200/6382847


    Subsidising the spread of COVID-19: Evidence from the UK’S Eat-Out-to-Help-Out Scheme*
    Thiemo Fetzer
    The Economic Journal, Volume 132, Issue 643, April 2022, Pages 1200–1217, https://doi.org/10.1093/ej/ueab074

    Abstract

    This paper documents that a large-scale government subsidy aimed at encouraging people to eat out in restaurants in the wake of the first 2020 COVID-19 wave in the United Kingdom has had a significant causal impact on new cases, accelerating the subsequent second COVID-19 wave. The scheme subsidised 50% off the cost of food and non-alcoholic drinks for an unlimited number of visits in participating restaurants on Mondays–Wednesdays from 3–31 August 2020. Areas with higher take-up saw both a notable increase in new COVID-19 infection clusters within a week of the scheme starting and a deceleration in infections within two weeks of the program ending. Similarly, areas that exhibited notable rainfall during the prime lunch and dinner hours on the days the scheme was active record lower infection incidence—a pattern that is also measurable in mobility data—and non-detectable on days during which the discount was not available or for rainfall outside the core lunch and dinner hours.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 129,470
    edited March 2023
    Foxy said:

    It looks as if the government doesn't like market forces after all. How could that be?

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-64827246

    There is no justification for consultants demanding 3 times their basic pay during the junior doctors' strike or for junior doctors demanding a 26% rise paid for by taxpayers well in excess of the 6% average national payrise either. Both are rightly being refused
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 74,827
    boulay said:

    Foxy said:

    Stench getting closer to Sunak.


    Hancock is just such a massive arse. It seems like he was so high on his own supply and ran round trying to monetise himself that he didn’t actually engage his brain.

    Not only did he do his old wanting to be a celeb by going on reality but he handed over huge amounts of sensitive info to a wildcard journo.

    I hope he hasn’t blown all his jungle money as I don’t think he’s going to be the catch he thought he would be when it comes to future paid roles and gigs.
    I dunno. He could make a fortune at cyber security conferences on securing CCTV footage, using secure messaging systems and conducting due diligence on employees.

    ‘So, ladies and gentlemen, you’ve all heard the correct ways to do things. To demonstrate what happens when you don’t follow basic procedures here is Matt Hancock who will tell you his methods. At the end we will show you a montage of newspaper reports demonstrating the results of these methods.’
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 25,043
    Carnyx said:

    Foxy said:

    Stench getting closer to Sunak.


    Indeed. This is an example of the studies of the scheme. I see the particularly imaginative use of the weather to argue that there really is a signal caused by restaurant usage.

    https://academic.oup.com/ej/article/132/643/1200/6382847


    Subsidising the spread of COVID-19: Evidence from the UK’S Eat-Out-to-Help-Out Scheme*
    Thiemo Fetzer
    The Economic Journal, Volume 132, Issue 643, April 2022, Pages 1200–1217, https://doi.org/10.1093/ej/ueab074

    Abstract

    This paper documents that a large-scale government subsidy aimed at encouraging people to eat out in restaurants in the wake of the first 2020 COVID-19 wave in the United Kingdom has had a significant causal impact on new cases, accelerating the subsequent second COVID-19 wave. The scheme subsidised 50% off the cost of food and non-alcoholic drinks for an unlimited number of visits in participating restaurants on Mondays–Wednesdays from 3–31 August 2020. Areas with higher take-up saw both a notable increase in new COVID-19 infection clusters within a week of the scheme starting and a deceleration in infections within two weeks of the program ending. Similarly, areas that exhibited notable rainfall during the prime lunch and dinner hours on the days the scheme was active record lower infection incidence—a pattern that is also measurable in mobility data—and non-detectable on days during which the discount was not available or for rainfall outside the core lunch and dinner hours.
    I don't think this will/should have any traction. Everyone knew there is a trade off between increased infections vs economic and social gain with Eat Out to Help Out. Many of us needed something like that for our mental health. Of course it lead to increased spread as more people met and that is how covid spreads.....
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 74,827
    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    It looks as if the government doesn't like market forces after all. How could that be?

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-64827246

    There is no justification for consultants demanding 3 times their basic pay during the junior doctors' strike or for junior doctors demanding a 26% rise well in excess of the 6% average national payrise either
    It’s called ‘supply and demand’ Hyufd. In scarcities prices go up.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 19,370
    StuartDickson said:

    The Oaf could shake off Partygate if Partygate had been an isolated incident. But it wasn’t. It is merely one event in an endless stream of career-long lies. Not just little fibs, but huge whopping stinkers.

    The man’s mental development stopped at age 15. He is a delinquent.

    Unsurprising, really. Everything in BoJo's life story has taught him that he can get away with stuff. And on the rare occasions that he hasn't (like being sacked by The Times) he has managed to fail upwards.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 123,207
    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    It looks as if the government doesn't like market forces after all. How could that be?

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-64827246

    There is no justification for consultants demanding 3 times their basic pay during the junior doctors' strike or for junior doctors demanding a 26% rise paid for by taxpayers well in excess of the 6% average national payrise either. Both are rightly being refused
    Why do you hate the NHS and their staff?
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 56,098
    edited March 2023
    God I am so bored of this. Is there anyone left who really cares? I mean, I get the use of this tedium to undermine any Johnson come back but that looks increasingly unlikely in any event. And the agony of going through this again.

    Boris lied. We all know he did. There is nothing left to prove. He was driven out of office by his lies. Enough.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 123,207
    Foxy said:

    It looks as if the government doesn't like market forces after all. How could that be?

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-64827246

    I’m telling my father to come out of retirement again to do the overnight shifts.

    Plus he won’t have to pay NI.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 129,470
    Former Newsnight and C4 journalist Paul Mason standing to be Labour candidate in Mid and South Pembrokeshire
    https://twitter.com/paulmasonnews/status/1631679420195917825?s=20
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 74,827
    DavidL said:

    God I am so bored of this. Is there anyone left who really cares? I mean, I get the use of this tedium to undermine any Johnson come back but that looks increasingly unlikely in any event. And the agony of going through this again.

    Boris lied. We all know he did. There is nothing left to prove. He was driven out of office by his lies. Enough.

    While some of the others are still there, still drawing their money and cocking everything up through a mixture of the same arrogance, ignorance and stupidity they demonstrated so clearly over this, we should still care.

    I suppose that could apply to Sunak but I’m thinking particularly of Case and Acland-Hood.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 123,207
    I hate squatters.

    Prince Andrew demands mansion 'fit for a king' and disgraced royal wants 'top role'

    Duke of York is refusing to leave the palatial 30-bedroom Windsor home after King Charles informed him of planned budget cuts to the royal finances….

    … Andrew, 63, has even offered to run some of the most prestigious estates in the Royal Family’s portfolio, including the late Queen’s beloved Balmoral Castle in Aberdeenshire.

    Sources have revealed how the Duke pleaded with the King for a “top role”, believing the responsibility and prestige with running the properties would offer him a way back into the fold.

    https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/royals/prince-andrew-demands-mansion-fit-29369297.amp
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 129,470
    TheScreamingEagles said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    It looks as if the government doesn't like market forces after all. How could that be?

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-64827246

    There is no justification for consultants demanding 3 times their basic pay during the junior doctors' strike or for junior doctors demanding a 26% rise paid for by taxpayers well in excess of the 6% average national payrise either. Both are rightly being refused
    Why do you hate the NHS and their staff?
    I don't, I don't even have a problem with them getting a 6% payrise ie the national average.

    I do have a problem with consultants demanding to be paid 3 times their salary for shifts by taxpayers and junior doctors demanding over 4 times the national payrise also paid for by taxpayers!
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 32,247
    FCA regulator blamed for Arm’s decision to shun London listing
    https://www.ft.com/content/40a0f9c1-3be1-4973-a473-3893a1675d28 (£££)

    Bloody Gordon Brown, screwing up City regulators.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 25,043
    DavidL said:

    God I am so bored of this. Is there anyone left who really cares? I mean, I get the use of this tedium to undermine any Johnson come back but that looks increasingly unlikely in any event. And the agony of going through this again.

    Boris lied. We all know he did. There is nothing left to prove. He was driven out of office by his lies. Enough.

    He is still second favourite for next leader of the establishment party so yes, we care.

    Three observations:

    Why do we allow senior politicians to use Whatsapp in this way? What is the point of security clearance anymore?

    Might Hancock be guilty of breaking Official Secrets Act by giving all his Whatsapp to Oakeshott?

    It seems dozens of civil servants and advisers directly knew the PM was lying to parliament, not one spoke publicly. Do they not have a legal/moral duty to whistleblow here?
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 56,098
    Foxy said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    Oh America, the GOP would be proscribed in the UK.

    South Carolina Republicans have introduced a bill that would allow women to be executed if they have an abortion. The bill is also vague enough to potentially include miscarriages.

    https://twitter.com/NoLieWithBTC/status/1631661957735669761

    America is an insane place.
    It absolutely is. But they also have a written constitution which is a rather ridiculous and somewhat out of date document which includes the right to free speech. I do not think this law will survive challenge. If our Parliament were so mad as to do something similar it would be more difficult.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,815
    As an aside, it's worth remembering nobody knew (and it's still up for debate) the optimal way to try and mitigate the health and economic impact of the pandemic. Unfortunately, there's only a limited degree to which past experience can be any use, and any lessons 'learned' will be of similarly limited use in the future as any new disease will have different aspects.

    That's not to say we shouldn't examine what happened, but in some instances judging with hindsight decisions made in a live situation the likes of which had not been seen for a century will be rather unfair.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 123,207
    edited March 2023
    I hate squatters.

    Prince Andrew demands mansion 'fit for a king' and disgraced royal wants 'top role'

    Duke of York is refusing to leave the palatial 30-bedroom Windsor home after King Charles informed him of planned budget cuts to the royal finances….

    … Andrew, 63, has even offered to run some of the most prestigious estates in the Royal Family’s portfolio, including the late Queen’s beloved Balmoral Castle in Aberdeenshire.

    Sources have revealed how the Duke pleaded with the King for a “top role”, believing the responsibility and prestige with running the properties would offer him a way back into the fold.

    https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/royals/prince-andrew-demands-mansion-fit-29369297.am
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 129,470
    TheScreamingEagles said:

    I hate squatters.

    Prince Andrew demands mansion 'fit for a king' and disgraced royal wants 'top role'

    Duke of York is refusing to leave the palatial 30-bedroom Windsor home after King Charles informed him of planned budget cuts to the royal finances….

    … Andrew, 63, has even offered to run some of the most prestigious estates in the Royal Family’s portfolio, including the late Queen’s beloved Balmoral Castle in Aberdeenshire.

    Sources have revealed how the Duke pleaded with the King for a “top role”, believing the responsibility and prestige with running the properties would offer him a way back into the fold.

    https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/royals/prince-andrew-demands-mansion-fit-29369297.amp

    Looks like the King might have to send in the bailiffs to evict Andrew then
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 123,207
    HYUFD said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    It looks as if the government doesn't like market forces after all. How could that be?

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-64827246

    There is no justification for consultants demanding 3 times their basic pay during the junior doctors' strike or for junior doctors demanding a 26% rise paid for by taxpayers well in excess of the 6% average national payrise either. Both are rightly being refused
    Why do you hate the NHS and their staff?
    I don't, I don't even have a problem with them getting a 6% payrise ie the national average.

    I do have a problem with consultants demanding to be paid 3 times their salary for shifts by taxpayers and junior doctors demanding over 4 times the national payrise also paid for by taxpayers!
    Overnight shifts always pay more.

    Why don’t you believe in free markets?

    Real Tories believe in free markets, lefties like you want the government to control wages.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 44,653
    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    It looks as if the government doesn't like market forces after all. How could that be?

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-64827246

    There is no justification for consultants demanding 3 times their basic pay during the junior doctors' strike or for junior doctors demanding a 26% rise paid for by taxpayers well in excess of the 6% average national payrise either. Both are rightly being refused
    I am amazed but I fully agree with HYUFD, only in the "magic money tree" public arena could people try to gouge their employers like this.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 44,836
    noneoftheabove said:

    Carnyx said:

    Foxy said:

    Stench getting closer to Sunak.


    Indeed. This is an example of the studies of the scheme. I see the particularly imaginative use of the weather to argue that there really is a signal caused by restaurant usage.

    https://academic.oup.com/ej/article/132/643/1200/6382847


    Subsidising the spread of COVID-19: Evidence from the UK’S Eat-Out-to-Help-Out Scheme*
    Thiemo Fetzer
    The Economic Journal, Volume 132, Issue 643, April 2022, Pages 1200–1217, https://doi.org/10.1093/ej/ueab074

    Abstract

    This paper documents that a large-scale government subsidy aimed at encouraging people to eat out in restaurants in the wake of the first 2020 COVID-19 wave in the United Kingdom has had a significant causal impact on new cases, accelerating the subsequent second COVID-19 wave. The scheme subsidised 50% off the cost of food and non-alcoholic drinks for an unlimited number of visits in participating restaurants on Mondays–Wednesdays from 3–31 August 2020. Areas with higher take-up saw both a notable increase in new COVID-19 infection clusters within a week of the scheme starting and a deceleration in infections within two weeks of the program ending. Similarly, areas that exhibited notable rainfall during the prime lunch and dinner hours on the days the scheme was active record lower infection incidence—a pattern that is also measurable in mobility data—and non-detectable on days during which the discount was not available or for rainfall outside the core lunch and dinner hours.
    I don't think this will/should have any traction. Everyone knew there is a trade off between increased infections vs economic and social gain with Eat Out to Help Out. Many of us needed something like that for our mental health. Of course it lead to increased spread as more people met and that is how covid spreads.....
    "Everyone knew": sure, if they had any brains. But that conversation shows it was being deliberately suppressed. Hancock was actually right.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 25,043
    TheScreamingEagles said:

    HYUFD said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    It looks as if the government doesn't like market forces after all. How could that be?

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-64827246

    There is no justification for consultants demanding 3 times their basic pay during the junior doctors' strike or for junior doctors demanding a 26% rise paid for by taxpayers well in excess of the 6% average national payrise either. Both are rightly being refused
    Why do you hate the NHS and their staff?
    I don't, I don't even have a problem with them getting a 6% payrise ie the national average.

    I do have a problem with consultants demanding to be paid 3 times their salary for shifts by taxpayers and junior doctors demanding over 4 times the national payrise also paid for by taxpayers!
    Overnight shifts always pay more.

    Why don’t you believe in free markets?

    Real Tories believe in free markets, lefties like you want the government to control wages.
    The intellectual capacity of the Tory party is so limited it still has not made the connection between "lets drive up wages" and being the nations biggest employer. Baffling.
  • FishingFishing Posts: 5,784
    Foxy said:

    It looks as if the government doesn't like market forces after all. How could that be?

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-64827246

    This tax-and-spend, net zero, Brownite government hates market forces. Why is that a revelation?
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 44,653
    ydoethur said:

    DavidL said:

    God I am so bored of this. Is there anyone left who really cares? I mean, I get the use of this tedium to undermine any Johnson come back but that looks increasingly unlikely in any event. And the agony of going through this again.

    Boris lied. We all know he did. There is nothing left to prove. He was driven out of office by his lies. Enough.

    While some of the others are still there, still drawing their money and cocking everything up through a mixture of the same arrogance, ignorance and stupidity they demonstrated so clearly over this, we should still care.

    I suppose that could apply to Sunak but I’m thinking particularly of Case and Acland-Hood.
    Agree , they should be tarring and feathering the lot of them and running them out of town. Typical Tory cries when caught with their hands in tills, and other places, etc.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 25,043
    Carnyx said:

    noneoftheabove said:

    Carnyx said:

    Foxy said:

    Stench getting closer to Sunak.


    Indeed. This is an example of the studies of the scheme. I see the particularly imaginative use of the weather to argue that there really is a signal caused by restaurant usage.

    https://academic.oup.com/ej/article/132/643/1200/6382847


    Subsidising the spread of COVID-19: Evidence from the UK’S Eat-Out-to-Help-Out Scheme*
    Thiemo Fetzer
    The Economic Journal, Volume 132, Issue 643, April 2022, Pages 1200–1217, https://doi.org/10.1093/ej/ueab074

    Abstract

    This paper documents that a large-scale government subsidy aimed at encouraging people to eat out in restaurants in the wake of the first 2020 COVID-19 wave in the United Kingdom has had a significant causal impact on new cases, accelerating the subsequent second COVID-19 wave. The scheme subsidised 50% off the cost of food and non-alcoholic drinks for an unlimited number of visits in participating restaurants on Mondays–Wednesdays from 3–31 August 2020. Areas with higher take-up saw both a notable increase in new COVID-19 infection clusters within a week of the scheme starting and a deceleration in infections within two weeks of the program ending. Similarly, areas that exhibited notable rainfall during the prime lunch and dinner hours on the days the scheme was active record lower infection incidence—a pattern that is also measurable in mobility data—and non-detectable on days during which the discount was not available or for rainfall outside the core lunch and dinner hours.
    I don't think this will/should have any traction. Everyone knew there is a trade off between increased infections vs economic and social gain with Eat Out to Help Out. Many of us needed something like that for our mental health. Of course it lead to increased spread as more people met and that is how covid spreads.....
    "Everyone knew": sure, if they had any brains. But that conversation shows it was being deliberately suppressed. Hancock was actually right.
    Not focussing on something is not the same as suppressing it. Everyone knew. The balance between the two was widely discussed on here, in the media and socially generally. It was a balance call not a good/bad call.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 129,470
    TheScreamingEagles said:

    HYUFD said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    It looks as if the government doesn't like market forces after all. How could that be?

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-64827246

    There is no justification for consultants demanding 3 times their basic pay during the junior doctors' strike or for junior doctors demanding a 26% rise paid for by taxpayers well in excess of the 6% average national payrise either. Both are rightly being refused
    Why do you hate the NHS and their staff?
    I don't, I don't even have a problem with them getting a 6% payrise ie the national average.

    I do have a problem with consultants demanding to be paid 3 times their salary for shifts by taxpayers and junior doctors demanding over 4 times the national payrise also paid for by taxpayers!
    Overnight shifts always pay more.

    Why don’t you believe in free markets?

    Real Tories believe in free markets, lefties like you want the government to control wages.
    They might pay a bit more but not 3 times salary more.

    The NHS is an arm of the state paid for by taxpayers. If NHS doctors and consultants really want to work in the free market they can move to Harley Street and go private. Only if healthcare was solely funded by patients with private health insurance not taxpayers would it be a genuine free market
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 44,653
    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    It looks as if the government doesn't like market forces after all. How could that be?

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-64827246

    There is no justification for consultants demanding 3 times their basic pay during the junior doctors' strike or for junior doctors demanding a 26% rise well in excess of the 6% average national payrise either
    It’s called ‘supply and demand’ Hyufd. In scarcities prices go up.
    It is pure and simple GREED.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 44,836
    TheScreamingEagles said:

    I hate squatters.

    Prince Andrew demands mansion 'fit for a king' and disgraced royal wants 'top role'

    Duke of York is refusing to leave the palatial 30-bedroom Windsor home after King Charles informed him of planned budget cuts to the royal finances….

    … Andrew, 63, has even offered to run some of the most prestigious estates in the Royal Family’s portfolio, including the late Queen’s beloved Balmoral Castle in Aberdeenshire.

    Sources have revealed how the Duke pleaded with the King for a “top role”, believing the responsibility and prestige with running the properties would offer him a way back into the fold.

    https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/royals/prince-andrew-demands-mansion-fit-29369297.amp

    I didn't know the D of Y was an experienced rural estate manager. Change of career at the age of 63? Not impossible, but ...
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 32,247
    Singin’ the coups: Donald Trump releases single with January 6 prisoners
    ...
    The move is the latest in a growing trend by Trump and others on the far right of US politics to embrace the January 6 attack on the Capitol as a political cause and portray many of those who carried it out as protesters being persecuted by the state.
    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/mar/03/donald-trump-song-charity-single-january-6-prisoners

    The "song" in question: Justice for All · Donald J. Trump · J6 Prison Choir
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uhXDz_ZTMfQ
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 44,836
    HYUFD said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    HYUFD said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    It looks as if the government doesn't like market forces after all. How could that be?

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-64827246

    There is no justification for consultants demanding 3 times their basic pay during the junior doctors' strike or for junior doctors demanding a 26% rise paid for by taxpayers well in excess of the 6% average national payrise either. Both are rightly being refused
    Why do you hate the NHS and their staff?
    I don't, I don't even have a problem with them getting a 6% payrise ie the national average.

    I do have a problem with consultants demanding to be paid 3 times their salary for shifts by taxpayers and junior doctors demanding over 4 times the national payrise also paid for by taxpayers!
    Overnight shifts always pay more.

    Why don’t you believe in free markets?

    Real Tories believe in free markets, lefties like you want the government to control wages.
    They might pay a bit more but not 3 times salary more.

    The NHS is an arm of the state paid for by taxpayers. If NHS doctors and consultants really want to work in the free market they can move to Harley Street and go private. Only if healthcare was solely funded by patients with private health insurance not taxpayers would it be a genuine free market
    You'd better talk to your party. They've been shifting the NHS and social services towardsa dependence on agencies with that sort of per-hour multiplier and lots of profit for party members.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 123,207
    DavidL said:

    Foxy said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    Oh America, the GOP would be proscribed in the UK.

    South Carolina Republicans have introduced a bill that would allow women to be executed if they have an abortion. The bill is also vague enough to potentially include miscarriages.

    https://twitter.com/NoLieWithBTC/status/1631661957735669761

    America is an insane place.
    It absolutely is. But they also have a written constitution which is a rather ridiculous and somewhat out of date document which includes the right to free speech. I do not think this law will survive challenge. If our Parliament were so mad as to do something similar it would be more difficult.
    Have you not seen the current make up of SCOTUS?
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 56,098
    ydoethur said:

    DavidL said:

    God I am so bored of this. Is there anyone left who really cares? I mean, I get the use of this tedium to undermine any Johnson come back but that looks increasingly unlikely in any event. And the agony of going through this again.

    Boris lied. We all know he did. There is nothing left to prove. He was driven out of office by his lies. Enough.

    While some of the others are still there, still drawing their money and cocking everything up through a mixture of the same arrogance, ignorance and stupidity they demonstrated so clearly over this, we should still care.

    I suppose that could apply to Sunak but I’m thinking particularly of Case and Acland-Hood.
    Simon Case is a disgrace and should have been sacked for his role in trying to cover this up rather than promoted. But promotion for incompetence is in the finest traditions of public service. Acland-Hood rather escaped my attention I'm afraid but as someone who had a leading role in the Education department I can see how she might be in your sights.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 44,653
    TheScreamingEagles said:

    HYUFD said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    It looks as if the government doesn't like market forces after all. How could that be?

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-64827246

    There is no justification for consultants demanding 3 times their basic pay during the junior doctors' strike or for junior doctors demanding a 26% rise paid for by taxpayers well in excess of the 6% average national payrise either. Both are rightly being refused
    Why do you hate the NHS and their staff?
    I don't, I don't even have a problem with them getting a 6% payrise ie the national average.

    I do have a problem with consultants demanding to be paid 3 times their salary for shifts by taxpayers and junior doctors demanding over 4 times the national payrise also paid for by taxpayers!
    Overnight shifts always pay more.

    Why don’t you believe in free markets?

    Real Tories believe in free markets, lefties like you want the government to control wages.
    Rubbish, many many companies don't pay shift allowances nowadays, limited to public area and the ex public companies. Most private companies pay little or nothing extra.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 29,060
    TheScreamingEagles said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    It looks as if the government doesn't like market forces after all. How could that be?

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-64827246

    There is no justification for consultants demanding 3 times their basic pay during the junior doctors' strike or for junior doctors demanding a 26% rise paid for by taxpayers well in excess of the 6% average national payrise either. Both are rightly being refused
    Why do you hate the NHS and their staff?
    Morning all.

    So trying to prevent moneygrubbing retired Doctors from extracting up to £3000 a day from the NHS is "hate"?

    Pull the other one, @TSE.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 19,719
    edited March 2023
    TheScreamingEagles said:

    I hate squatters.

    Prince Andrew demands mansion 'fit for a king' and disgraced royal wants 'top role'

    Duke of York is refusing to leave the palatial 30-bedroom Windsor home after King Charles informed him of planned budget cuts to the royal finances….

    … Andrew, 63, has even offered to run some of the most prestigious estates in the Royal Family’s portfolio, including the late Queen’s beloved Balmoral Castle in Aberdeenshire.

    Sources have revealed how the Duke pleaded with the King for a “top role”, believing the responsibility and prestige with running the properties would offer him a way back into the fold.

    https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/royals/prince-andrew-demands-mansion-fit-29369297.amp

    Clear what Prince Andrew's role is - to make every other miscreant in the country feel better about themselves. At least they're not as much of a bell-end as the Duke of York.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 44,653
    MattW said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    It looks as if the government doesn't like market forces after all. How could that be?

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-64827246

    There is no justification for consultants demanding 3 times their basic pay during the junior doctors' strike or for junior doctors demanding a 26% rise paid for by taxpayers well in excess of the 6% average national payrise either. Both are rightly being refused
    Why do you hate the NHS and their staff?
    Morning all.

    So trying to prevent moneygrubbing retired Doctors from extracting up to £3000 a day from the NHS is "hate"?

    Pull the other one, @TSE.
    Tories always plug for their own
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 19,370
    noneoftheabove said:

    Carnyx said:

    Foxy said:

    Stench getting closer to Sunak.


    Indeed. This is an example of the studies of the scheme. I see the particularly imaginative use of the weather to argue that there really is a signal caused by restaurant usage.

    https://academic.oup.com/ej/article/132/643/1200/6382847


    Subsidising the spread of COVID-19: Evidence from the UK’S Eat-Out-to-Help-Out Scheme*
    Thiemo Fetzer
    The Economic Journal, Volume 132, Issue 643, April 2022, Pages 1200–1217, https://doi.org/10.1093/ej/ueab074

    Abstract

    This paper documents that a large-scale government subsidy aimed at encouraging people to eat out in restaurants in the wake of the first 2020 COVID-19 wave in the United Kingdom has had a significant causal impact on new cases, accelerating the subsequent second COVID-19 wave. The scheme subsidised 50% off the cost of food and non-alcoholic drinks for an unlimited number of visits in participating restaurants on Mondays–Wednesdays from 3–31 August 2020. Areas with higher take-up saw both a notable increase in new COVID-19 infection clusters within a week of the scheme starting and a deceleration in infections within two weeks of the program ending. Similarly, areas that exhibited notable rainfall during the prime lunch and dinner hours on the days the scheme was active record lower infection incidence—a pattern that is also measurable in mobility data—and non-detectable on days during which the discount was not available or for rainfall outside the core lunch and dinner hours.
    I don't think this will/should have any traction. Everyone knew there is a trade off between increased infections vs economic and social gain with Eat Out to Help Out. Many of us needed something like that for our mental health. Of course it lead to increased spread as more people met and that is how covid spreads.....
    Except the consequence of that was that we entered the autumn with a higher baseline number of cases, so we had less room for covid cases to increase until we hit the threshold where the only thing we could do was lock down.

    The stringency and duration of the UK lockdown at the beginning of 2021 was unusually serve compared with nearby countries. Check https://ourworldindata.org/covid-stringency-index for January 2021. We started relaxing sooner but from a very tight set of restrictions. In part that was because of the strategy of trying to run Covid hot.

    The Telegraph might actually cause Sunak inadvertent trouble here. They want to laud him as the man who opposed lockdowns. (Eat out scheme, bringing the Gt Barrington people to brief Downing St). But they risk implicating him in the Great Covid Screwup.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 55,604
    TheScreamingEagles said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    It looks as if the government doesn't like market forces after all. How could that be?

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-64827246

    There is no justification for consultants demanding 3 times their basic pay during the junior doctors' strike or for junior doctors demanding a 26% rise paid for by taxpayers well in excess of the 6% average national payrise either. Both are rightly being refused
    Why do you hate the NHS and their staff?
    Why do you love inflation?
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 56,098
    edited March 2023
    TheScreamingEagles said:

    DavidL said:

    Foxy said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    Oh America, the GOP would be proscribed in the UK.

    South Carolina Republicans have introduced a bill that would allow women to be executed if they have an abortion. The bill is also vague enough to potentially include miscarriages.

    https://twitter.com/NoLieWithBTC/status/1631661957735669761

    America is an insane place.
    It absolutely is. But they also have a written constitution which is a rather ridiculous and somewhat out of date document which includes the right to free speech. I do not think this law will survive challenge. If our Parliament were so mad as to do something similar it would be more difficult.
    Have you not seen the current make up of SCOTUS?
    Edit, sorry wrong court. The current make up of SCOTUS is indeed a concern.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 52,545
    edited March 2023
    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    It looks as if the government doesn't like market forces after all. How could that be?

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-64827246

    There is no justification for consultants demanding 3 times their basic pay during the junior doctors' strike or for junior doctors demanding a 26% rise paid for by taxpayers well in excess of the 6% average national payrise either. Both are rightly being refused
    Fair go. We are not obliged to cover striking colleagues. I might just stay at home instead.

    Personally, I have been asking for Time Off In Lieu rather than pay, partly for tax reasons, and in part it doesn't get management off the hook.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 55,604
    noneoftheabove said:

    DavidL said:

    God I am so bored of this. Is there anyone left who really cares? I mean, I get the use of this tedium to undermine any Johnson come back but that looks increasingly unlikely in any event. And the agony of going through this again.

    Boris lied. We all know he did. There is nothing left to prove. He was driven out of office by his lies. Enough.

    He is still second favourite for next leader of the establishment party so yes, we care.

    Three observations:

    Why do we allow senior politicians to use Whatsapp in this way? What is the point of security clearance anymore?

    Might Hancock be guilty of breaking Official Secrets Act by giving all his Whatsapp to Oakeshott?

    It seems dozens of civil servants and advisers directly knew the PM was lying to parliament, not one spoke publicly. Do they not have a legal/moral duty to whistleblow here?
    We should care. We should care there are people so stupid they wil back the return of Boris Johnson as PM with hard cash.

    Milk them.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,805
    HYUFD said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    Oh America, the GOP would be proscribed in the UK.

    South Carolina Republicans have introduced a bill that would allow women to be executed if they have an abortion. The bill is also vague enough to potentially include miscarriages.

    https://twitter.com/NoLieWithBTC/status/1631661957735669761

    Abortion was illegal in the UK and we had capital punishment until the 1960s. Though obviously not the latter for the former and zero chance of this proposal actually becoming law
    The comment was about the prescription of the Republican Party if it were in the U.K. not sure how your reply addresses that, but you be you, HY
  • MattWMattW Posts: 29,060
    edited March 2023
    DavidL said:

    Foxy said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    Oh America, the GOP would be proscribed in the UK.

    South Carolina Republicans have introduced a bill that would allow women to be executed if they have an abortion. The bill is also vague enough to potentially include miscarriages.

    https://twitter.com/NoLieWithBTC/status/1631661957735669761

    America is an insane place.
    It absolutely is. But they also have a written constitution which is a rather ridiculous and somewhat out of date document which includes the right to free speech. I do not think this law will survive challenge. If our Parliament were so mad as to do something similar it would be more difficult.
    Unfortunately they also have a supreme Court which is quite capricious as to whether it will hear a case or not; logic need not apply.

    I hope they would not slope shoulders on this one, but ...
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 52,545
    malcolmg said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    HYUFD said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    It looks as if the government doesn't like market forces after all. How could that be?

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-64827246

    There is no justification for consultants demanding 3 times their basic pay during the junior doctors' strike or for junior doctors demanding a 26% rise paid for by taxpayers well in excess of the 6% average national payrise either. Both are rightly being refused
    Why do you hate the NHS and their staff?
    I don't, I don't even have a problem with them getting a 6% payrise ie the national average.

    I do have a problem with consultants demanding to be paid 3 times their salary for shifts by taxpayers and junior doctors demanding over 4 times the national payrise also paid for by taxpayers!
    Overnight shifts always pay more.

    Why don’t you believe in free markets?

    Real Tories believe in free markets, lefties like you want the government to control wages.
    Rubbish, many many companies don't pay shift allowances nowadays, limited to public area and the ex public companies. Most private companies pay little or nothing extra.
    Go right ahead. We have no obligation to cover absences.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 52,545
    noneoftheabove said:

    DavidL said:

    God I am so bored of this. Is there anyone left who really cares? I mean, I get the use of this tedium to undermine any Johnson come back but that looks increasingly unlikely in any event. And the agony of going through this again.

    Boris lied. We all know he did. There is nothing left to prove. He was driven out of office by his lies. Enough.

    He is still second favourite for next leader of the establishment party so yes, we care.

    Three observations:

    Why do we allow senior politicians to use Whatsapp in this way? What is the point of security clearance anymore?

    Might Hancock be guilty of breaking Official Secrets Act by giving all his Whatsapp to Oakeshott?

    It seems dozens of civil servants and advisers directly knew the PM was lying to parliament, not one spoke publicly. Do they not have a legal/moral duty to whistleblow here?
    Surely too a breach of GPDR to hand over conversations to a 3rd party without permission from all in the conversation?
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,805
    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    It looks as if the government doesn't like market forces after all. How could that be?

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-64827246

    There is no justification for consultants demanding 3 times their basic pay during the junior doctors' strike or for junior doctors demanding a 26% rise paid for by taxpayers well in excess of the 6% average national payrise either. Both are rightly being refused
    The justification is that the consultants have rightly observed that there is no one else to cover junior doctors.

    Demand is high, supply is low, so the price…why do I have to explain this? I thought you Conservatives were the economically literate party?

  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 25,043
    Stuartinromford said:

    noneoftheabove said:

    Carnyx said:

    Foxy said:

    Stench getting closer to Sunak.


    Indeed. This is an example of the studies of the scheme. I see the particularly imaginative use of the weather to argue that there really is a signal caused by restaurant usage.

    https://academic.oup.com/ej/article/132/643/1200/6382847


    Subsidising the spread of COVID-19: Evidence from the UK’S Eat-Out-to-Help-Out Scheme*
    Thiemo Fetzer
    The Economic Journal, Volume 132, Issue 643, April 2022, Pages 1200–1217, https://doi.org/10.1093/ej/ueab074

    Abstract

    This paper documents that a large-scale government subsidy aimed at encouraging people to eat out in restaurants in the wake of the first 2020 COVID-19 wave in the United Kingdom has had a significant causal impact on new cases, accelerating the subsequent second COVID-19 wave. The scheme subsidised 50% off the cost of food and non-alcoholic drinks for an unlimited number of visits in participating restaurants on Mondays–Wednesdays from 3–31 August 2020. Areas with higher take-up saw both a notable increase in new COVID-19 infection clusters within a week of the scheme starting and a deceleration in infections within two weeks of the program ending. Similarly, areas that exhibited notable rainfall during the prime lunch and dinner hours on the days the scheme was active record lower infection incidence—a pattern that is also measurable in mobility data—and non-detectable on days during which the discount was not available or for rainfall outside the core lunch and dinner hours.
    I don't think this will/should have any traction. Everyone knew there is a trade off between increased infections vs economic and social gain with Eat Out to Help Out. Many of us needed something like that for our mental health. Of course it lead to increased spread as more people met and that is how covid spreads.....
    Except the consequence of that was that we entered the autumn with a higher baseline number of cases, so we had less room for covid cases to increase until we hit the threshold where the only thing we could do was lock down.

    The stringency and duration of the UK lockdown at the beginning of 2021 was unusually serve compared with nearby countries. Check https://ourworldindata.org/covid-stringency-index for January 2021. We started relaxing sooner but from a very tight set of restrictions. In part that was because of the strategy of trying to run Covid hot.

    The Telegraph might actually cause Sunak inadvertent trouble here. They want to laud him as the man who opposed lockdowns. (Eat out scheme, bringing the Gt Barrington people to brief Downing St). But they risk implicating him in the Great Covid Screwup.
    I know all that, and knew at the time that increasing socialisation in the summer of 2020 would cause increased risks for winter 2020/1 but still broadly supported eat out to help out. It was important socially and psychologically for many.

    Completely fair enough if others disagree with that judgment, I'll probably be in the minority, especially with hindsight and clear data about infections and very little on mental health, but I fail to see how this can be anywhere near the top 10 mistakes we already know the govt have made in handling the pandemic.
  • John1889John1889 Posts: 6
    I would prefer it if people stayed on topic but it is none of my business. It is not easy to find comments relating to the article.
    Boris' flippancy regarding the pandemic shows the truth of the situation. The whatsapp messages also show this. The whole covid response was political and they knew only a small section of the population were at risk. Rather than partygate there needs to be an investigation into where Sage and the Cabinet Office were taking there orders from in pushing for draconian lockdowns even when the evidence all said otherwise.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,805
    John1889 said:

    I would prefer it if people stayed on topic but it is none of my business. It is not easy to find comments relating to the article.
    Boris' flippancy regarding the pandemic shows the truth of the situation. The whatsapp messages also show this. The whole covid response was political and they knew only a small section of the population were at risk. Rather than partygate there needs to be an investigation into where Sage and the Cabinet Office were taking there orders from in pushing for draconian lockdowns even when the evidence all said otherwise.

    Do you have a view on vaccines?
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 39,504
    Rishi Sunak Matt, people are saying you’ve given all of our WhatsApps to a newspaper.
    Matt Hancock OMG what? I’d never be so stupid.
    Rishi Sunak Phew.
    Matt Hancock No, I gave them to Isabel Oakeshott.
    Rishi Sunak Oh dear.
    Gavin Williamson For God’s sake, Matt. What did you think was going to happen? People don’t change!
    Dominic Cummings Bit rich from you.
    Boris Johnson Bit rich from you.
    Rishi Sunak Bit rich from you.
    Matt Hancock Guys, relax. We have a deal about the messages. They’re safe.
    Dominic Cummings Is it a protective ring?
    Boris Johnson We’re screwed.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/my-week-matt-hancocks-whatsapp-dx3dvgm98
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 52,545
    HYUFD said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    I hate squatters.

    Prince Andrew demands mansion 'fit for a king' and disgraced royal wants 'top role'

    Duke of York is refusing to leave the palatial 30-bedroom Windsor home after King Charles informed him of planned budget cuts to the royal finances….

    … Andrew, 63, has even offered to run some of the most prestigious estates in the Royal Family’s portfolio, including the late Queen’s beloved Balmoral Castle in Aberdeenshire.

    Sources have revealed how the Duke pleaded with the King for a “top role”, believing the responsibility and prestige with running the properties would offer him a way back into the fold.

    https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/royals/prince-andrew-demands-mansion-fit-29369297.amp

    Looks like the King might have to send in the bailiffs to evict Andrew then
    Well, wouldn't you want to keep a dodgy Great Uncle well away from the kids and grandkids?
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,815
    Dr. Foxy, aye, people will be rightly pissed off that conversations they thought private have now been handed over to a journalist.

    WhatsApp: proof not even the most powerful encryption can survive being Hancocked.

    Welcome to PB, Mr. 1889. The Sage line is interesting, as they seemed all in favour of lockdowns in general. One of the things Boris Johnson got right, late on, was pushing back against this when a sort of pre-emptive lockdown (at a time when people were vaccinated and the lethality of the disease had declined significantly) was sought by Sage.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 44,653
    Foxy said:

    malcolmg said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    HYUFD said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    It looks as if the government doesn't like market forces after all. How could that be?

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-64827246

    There is no justification for consultants demanding 3 times their basic pay during the junior doctors' strike or for junior doctors demanding a 26% rise paid for by taxpayers well in excess of the 6% average national payrise either. Both are rightly being refused
    Why do you hate the NHS and their staff?
    I don't, I don't even have a problem with them getting a 6% payrise ie the national average.

    I do have a problem with consultants demanding to be paid 3 times their salary for shifts by taxpayers and junior doctors demanding over 4 times the national payrise also paid for by taxpayers!
    Overnight shifts always pay more.

    Why don’t you believe in free markets?

    Real Tories believe in free markets, lefties like you want the government to control wages.
    Rubbish, many many companies don't pay shift allowances nowadays, limited to public area and the ex public companies. Most private companies pay little or nothing extra.
    Go right ahead. We have no obligation to cover absences.
    Absolutely , they should make an offer and then if they are short of staff it is just stuff for their customers. However it will not improve public perception that Doctor's are almost missing in action as it is , certainly not a time to be ill. The NHS model needs changing big time.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 19,719
    It's interesting that, if you look at the historical chart for parkrun, you can see that Covid has done real and lasting damage to participation. Bearing in mind that it is a very low-risk activity in terms of transmission of respiratory illnesses, in the open, that improves fitness, it's a change that should seriously worry us.

    https://www.parkrun.org.uk/results/historicalchart/

    The restaurant industry. Not so much.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 19,370
    MarqueeMark said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    It looks as if the government doesn't like market forces after all. How could that be?

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-64827246

    There is no justification for consultants demanding 3 times their basic pay during the junior doctors' strike or for junior doctors demanding a 26% rise paid for by taxpayers well in excess of the 6% average national payrise either. Both are rightly being refused
    Why do you hate the NHS and their staff?
    Why do you love inflation?
    What's that got to do with anything? If the state doesn't want to spend so much money on doctors, it can learn to do without so many doctors. Otherwise, the going rate is what it's always been; how much do you have to offer to get the quantity and quality of staff you need.

    It is a bit galling, when London is full of jobs where people are paid huge salaries and bonuses which, let's face it, aren't easy to justify. Unfortunately, since at least Blair and probably Thatcher, the UK's business model has been to be a base for high finance in the hope that their taxes can subsidise the rest of us. For a while now, that hasn't looked like a stable solution.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 63,974
    FPT

    “Dura_Ace Posts: 10,898
    8:32AM
    Andy_JS said:
    Noticed this on the Spectator front page.

    "Sean Thomas
    How to see Bangkok without the crowds
    There's never been a better time to visit the Thai capital"

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/how-to-see-bangkok-without-the-crowds/


    More Judith Chalmers than Sean Flynn.”

    Judith Chalmers, you say?

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/how-we-forgot-about-pol-pot/
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 22,107
    Stuartinromford said:

    MarqueeMark said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    It looks as if the government doesn't like market forces after all. How could that be?

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-64827246

    There is no justification for consultants demanding 3 times their basic pay during the junior doctors' strike or for junior doctors demanding a 26% rise paid for by taxpayers well in excess of the 6% average national payrise either. Both are rightly being refused
    Why do you hate the NHS and their staff?
    Why do you love inflation?
    What's that got to do with anything? If the state doesn't want to spend so much money on doctors, it can learn to do without so many doctors. Otherwise, the going rate is what it's always been; how much do you have to offer to get the quantity and quality of staff you need.

    It is a bit galling, when London is full of jobs where people are paid huge salaries and bonuses which, let's face it, aren't easy to justify. Unfortunately, since at least Blair and probably Thatcher, the UK's business model has been to be a base for high finance in the hope that their taxes can subsidise the rest of us. For a while now, that hasn't looked like a stable solution.
    Tories like banker bonus inflation.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 44,653
    John1889 said:

    I would prefer it if people stayed on topic but it is none of my business. It is not easy to find comments relating to the article.
    Boris' flippancy regarding the pandemic shows the truth of the situation. The whatsapp messages also show this. The whole covid response was political and they knew only a small section of the population were at risk. Rather than partygate there needs to be an investigation into where Sage and the Cabinet Office were taking there orders from in pushing for draconian lockdowns even when the evidence all said otherwise.

    It helped them milk the public purse for themselves and family and friends.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 123,207
    MarqueeMark said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    It looks as if the government doesn't like market forces after all. How could that be?

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-64827246

    There is no justification for consultants demanding 3 times their basic pay during the junior doctors' strike or for junior doctors demanding a 26% rise paid for by taxpayers well in excess of the 6% average national payrise either. Both are rightly being refused
    Why do you hate the NHS and their staff?
    Why do you love inflation?
    I dont. Inflation is economic gonorrhoea.
  • John1889John1889 Posts: 6
    DavidL said:

    God I am so bored of this. Is there anyone left who really cares? I mean, I get the use of this tedium to undermine any Johnson come back but that looks increasingly unlikely in any event. And the agony of going through this again.

    Boris lied. We all know he did. There is nothing left to prove. He was driven out of office by his lies. Enough.

    It shines a light on the government's true attitude to covid.
    Fauci said recently that natural immunity provides better protection than the vaccinations.
    Most people were not at risk and so infection in the community provides a barrier to halt the spread. There never was any justification for the lockdowns or the vaccine passports.
    Most PCR test positives were false positives, and deliberately so.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 52,545
    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    It looks as if the government doesn't like market forces after all. How could that be?

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-64827246

    There is no justification for consultants demanding 3 times their basic pay during the junior doctors' strike or for junior doctors demanding a 26% rise paid for by taxpayers well in excess of the 6% average national payrise either. Both are rightly being refused
    The justification is that the consultants have rightly observed that there is no one else to cover junior doctors.

    Demand is high, supply is low, so the price…why do I have to explain this? I thought you Conservatives were the economically literate party?

    These are the standard BMA rates card for extra work above contract, and apply at all times, so are not specific to this or any other strike.

    Of course staff might be more amenable to work if the basic salary wasn't a real terms pay cut of 8%, but that is where the whole thing started.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 129,470
    edited March 2023
    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    It looks as if the government doesn't like market forces after all. How could that be?

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-64827246

    There is no justification for consultants demanding 3 times their basic pay during the junior doctors' strike or for junior doctors demanding a 26% rise paid for by taxpayers well in excess of the 6% average national payrise either. Both are rightly being refused
    The justification is that the consultants have rightly observed that there is no one else to cover junior doctors.

    Demand is high, supply is low, so the price…why do I have to explain this? I thought you Conservatives were the economically literate party?

    So they demand 3 times their basic pay? Well I suppose consultants detached houses in Surrey, Michelin starred meals, sports cars, boarding school fees and holidays in Tuscany and the Caribbean and Maldives don't
    pay for themselves, even if it is taxpayers struggling with cost of living who have to pay for them!
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 66,350
    John1889 said:

    DavidL said:

    God I am so bored of this. Is there anyone left who really cares? I mean, I get the use of this tedium to undermine any Johnson come back but that looks increasingly unlikely in any event. And the agony of going through this again.

    Boris lied. We all know he did. There is nothing left to prove. He was driven out of office by his lies. Enough.

    It shines a light on the government's true attitude to covid.
    Fauci said recently that natural immunity provides better protection than the vaccinations.
    Most people were not at risk and so infection in the community provides a barrier to halt the spread. There never was any justification for the lockdowns or the vaccine passports.
    Most PCR test positives were false positives, and deliberately so.
    So you are anti vaccinations then
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 25,043
    LostPassword said:

    noneoftheabove said:

    Carnyx said:

    noneoftheabove said:

    Carnyx said:

    Foxy said:

    Stench getting closer to Sunak.


    Indeed. This is an example of the studies of the scheme. I see the particularly imaginative use of the weather to argue that there really is a signal caused by restaurant usage.

    https://academic.oup.com/ej/article/132/643/1200/6382847


    Subsidising the spread of COVID-19: Evidence from the UK’S Eat-Out-to-Help-Out Scheme*
    Thiemo Fetzer
    The Economic Journal, Volume 132, Issue 643, April 2022, Pages 1200–1217, https://doi.org/10.1093/ej/ueab074

    Abstract

    This paper documents that a large-scale government subsidy aimed at encouraging people to eat out in restaurants in the wake of the first 2020 COVID-19 wave in the United Kingdom has had a significant causal impact on new cases, accelerating the subsequent second COVID-19 wave. The scheme subsidised 50% off the cost of food and non-alcoholic drinks for an unlimited number of visits in participating restaurants on Mondays–Wednesdays from 3–31 August 2020. Areas with higher take-up saw both a notable increase in new COVID-19 infection clusters within a week of the scheme starting and a deceleration in infections within two weeks of the program ending. Similarly, areas that exhibited notable rainfall during the prime lunch and dinner hours on the days the scheme was active record lower infection incidence—a pattern that is also measurable in mobility data—and non-detectable on days during which the discount was not available or for rainfall outside the core lunch and dinner hours.
    I don't think this will/should have any traction. Everyone knew there is a trade off between increased infections vs economic and social gain with Eat Out to Help Out. Many of us needed something like that for our mental health. Of course it lead to increased spread as more people met and that is how covid spreads.....
    "Everyone knew": sure, if they had any brains. But that conversation shows it was being deliberately suppressed. Hancock was actually right.
    Not focussing on something is not the same as suppressing it. Everyone knew. The balance between the two was widely discussed on here, in the media and socially generally. It was a balance call not a good/bad call.
    There were a lot of people at the time claiming, (a) that everyone had already caught Covid and we all had immunity, and, (b) that all Covid transmission was happening in private homes and restaurants were a safe environment.

    If we'd had an evidence-based approach to the situation we would have focused on encouraging people to meet others outside, in the summer weather, preferably as part of some sort of exercise-based activity. Instead parkrun was still shut down, and people were being subsidised to eat inside at restaurants. It was completely moronic.
    The fact that we have lots of idiots who believe weird things does not mean it was a bad, let alone terrible policy.

    The bans on outdoor sport were clearly bad imo.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 19,370
    Apropos of nothing (that's the biggest lie since Boris last opened his mouth- Ed), I notice it's Saturday morning.

    I wonder what the day will bring.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 129,470
    edited March 2023
    Foxy said:

    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    It looks as if the government doesn't like market forces after all. How could that be?

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-64827246

    There is no justification for consultants demanding 3 times their basic pay during the junior doctors' strike or for junior doctors demanding a 26% rise paid for by taxpayers well in excess of the 6% average national payrise either. Both are rightly being refused
    The justification is that the consultants have rightly observed that there is no one else to cover junior doctors.

    Demand is high, supply is low, so the price…why do I have to explain this? I thought you Conservatives were the economically literate party?

    These are the standard BMA rates card for extra work above contract, and apply at all times, so are not specific to this or any other strike.

    Of course staff might be more amenable to work if the basic salary wasn't a real terms pay cut of 8%, but that is where the whole thing started.
    Junior doctors also want a 26% payrise, ie over 4 times the average national payrise and 16% more than inflation
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 33,460
    Big_G_NorthWales said:

    John1889 said:

    DavidL said:

    God I am so bored of this. Is there anyone left who really cares? I mean, I get the use of this tedium to undermine any Johnson come back but that looks increasingly unlikely in any event. And the agony of going through this again.

    Boris lied. We all know he did. There is nothing left to prove. He was driven out of office by his lies. Enough.

    It shines a light on the government's true attitude to covid.
    Fauci said recently that natural immunity provides better protection than the vaccinations.
    Most people were not at risk and so infection in the community provides a barrier to halt the spread. There never was any justification for the lockdowns or the vaccine passports.
    Most PCR test positives were false positives, and deliberately so.
    So you are anti vaccinations then
    This particular Moscow dynamo came in anti vax studs up from post one. Some manage forty to fifty posts before the hammer falls.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,805
    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    It looks as if the government doesn't like market forces after all. How could that be?

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-64827246

    There is no justification for consultants demanding 3 times their basic pay during the junior doctors' strike or for junior doctors demanding a 26% rise paid for by taxpayers well in excess of the 6% average national payrise either. Both are rightly being refused
    The justification is that the consultants have rightly observed that there is no one else to cover junior doctors.

    Demand is high, supply is low, so the price…why do I have to explain this? I thought you Conservatives were the economically literate party?

    So they demand 3 times their basic pay? Well I suppose consultants detached houses in Surrey, Michelin starred meals, sports cars, boarding school fees and holidays in Tuscany and the Caribbean and Maldives don't
    pay for themselves, even if it is taxpayers struggling with cost of living who have to pay for then!
    No, they are merely asking for the rate they usually charge for work outside contract, which this is. If you treated junior doctors properly then this wouldn’t happen. Why should consultants charge less than they would normally for off contract work just bail the Tory Party out of the hole it has created for the country?

    The Conservatives should look for ways of fixing the problem instead of searching for scapegoats like doctors, nurses, civil servants, remainers, lawyers, the EU, immigrants, the last Labour Govt etc etc
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 40,446
    Have to say Rishi seems to be coming out well from all of the WhatsApp leaks. Vindicated by his early anti lockdown stance and opposing the clearly power crazed Hancock and other DoH wankers who ruined everyone's lives.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 52,545
    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    It looks as if the government doesn't like market forces after all. How could that be?

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-64827246

    There is no justification for consultants demanding 3 times their basic pay during the junior doctors' strike or for junior doctors demanding a 26% rise paid for by taxpayers well in excess of the 6% average national payrise either. Both are rightly being refused
    The justification is that the consultants have rightly observed that there is no one else to cover junior doctors.

    Demand is high, supply is low, so the price…why do I have to explain this? I thought you Conservatives were the economically literate party?

    These are the standard BMA rates card for extra work above contract, and apply at all times, so are not specific to this or any other strike.

    Of course staff might be more amenable to work if the basic salary wasn't a real terms pay cut of 8%, but that is where the whole thing started.
    Junior doctors also want a 26% payrise, ie over 4 times the average national payrise and 16% more than inflation
    They have had a real terms pay cut of that over the last decade, and what they are wanting is pay restoration to that level over a few years.

    I thought Tories were in favour of a high skill, high wage economy, with domestic workers protected.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 74,827
    malcolmg said:

    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    It looks as if the government doesn't like market forces after all. How could that be?

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-64827246

    There is no justification for consultants demanding 3 times their basic pay during the junior doctors' strike or for junior doctors demanding a 26% rise well in excess of the 6% average national payrise either
    It’s called ‘supply and demand’ Hyufd. In scarcities prices go up.
    It is pure and simple GREED.
    Yes. Or 'economics' as it's also called.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,805
    MaxPB said:

    Have to say Rishi seems to be coming out well from all of the WhatsApp leaks. Vindicated by his early anti lockdown stance and opposing the clearly power crazed Hancock and other DoH wankers who ruined everyone's lives.

    I think attention might turn to Eat Out to Help Out (an unfortunate slogan at the best of times) quite soon…
This discussion has been closed.

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