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Who’s Fooling Whom? – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 8,489
edited November 20 in General
imageWho’s Fooling Whom? – politicalbetting.com

Don’t worry. This is not about trans rights or what a woman is. It is about Scottish governance, the process of Scottish legislation and the consequences of relying on small parties for votes. Above all, it’s about whether Ms Sturgeon is a straight politician as she likes to claim, whether she is being economical with the truth, whether she has misled Holyrood. Like pretty much all politics these days, it’s about integrity.

Read the full story here

«13456

Comments

  • Well if Qatar Ecuador did not make you feel sleepy,this will.
  • DrkBDrkB Posts: 68

    Well if Qatar Ecuador did not make you feel sleepy,this will.

    why watch it...lets face it whos really interested in qatar v ecuador notwithstanding the loathsome human rights record of Qatar
  • pillsburypillsbury Posts: 181
    google "Dolatowski."

    The End.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 81,229
    Don’t worry. This is not about trans rights or what a woman is. It is about Scottish governance, the process of Scottish legislation and the consequences of relying on small parties for votes

    What's the reverse of an enticing hook?

    Just kidding.

    I think there are well reiterated concerns about governance and the process of legislation all our legislatures, as the piece notes, since politics does not look kindly on making serious changes or taking time, especially if the business is seen as totemic fro some reason.

    But whilst it might all seem a bit legalese, it really does not seem on for a government, any government, to argue different interpretations in different contexts. It is true that 'this is not a priority matter' is an argument sometimes used to seek to derail popular moves (opponents argued it when gay marriage was legalised), but it all seems an unnecessary bit of aggravation for a dominant and likely to remain so political force.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 57,983
    Leon said:

    Welcome back, Miss @Cyclefree

    Seconded.
  • What's the reflexive pronoun for people whose pronoun is ze?

    Zitself?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 54,579
    edited November 20
    Like pretty much all politics these days, it’s about integrity.

    I have to say I disagree. It can't be about what doesn't exist. It's about lack of integrity.

    Sturgeon is a particularly egregious example, but we have Shapps, Braverman, Patel, Johnson, all of whom seem to be pathologically incapable of telling the truth.

    I won't say they would never have survived in an earlier era. Disraeli, Pitt, Lloyd George, Asquith, Churchill all deliberately misled Parliament. All of them made it to be Prime Minister. But it does seem as though lying has become normalised.

    On the substance of the article, perhaps the Greens simply can't advance their real agenda - which seems to involve going back to the Stone Age - so are suing this as a distraction to conceal the fact they are not in fact achieving anything worthwhile?
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 72,705
    As Sash in 1997 said 'Ecuador'
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 19,930
    Having observed the way South/Central American teams tend to play football, Ecuador probably would have scored more goals if Qatar had scored one just after half-time.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 54,579

    What's the reflexive pronoun for people whose pronoun is ze?

    Zitself?

    If you get it wrong, are you on a spot?
  • pillsburypillsbury Posts: 181
    ydoethur said:

    Like pretty much all politics these days, it’s about integrity.

    I have to say I disagree. It can't be about what doesn't exist. It's about lack of integrity.

    Sturgeon is a particularly egregious example, but we have Shapps, Braverman, Patel, Johnson, all of whom seem to be pathologically incapable of telling the truth.

    I won't say they would never have survived in an earlier era. Disraeli, Pitt, Lloyd George, Asquith, Churchill all deliberately misled Parliament. All of them made it to be Prime Minister. But it does seem as though lying has become normalised.

    On the substance of the article, perhaps the Greens simply can't advance their real agenda - which seems to involve going back to the Stone Age - so are suing this as a distraction to conceal the fact they are not in fact achieving anything worthwhile?

    No, it is more that it's a rule of lefty politics that you have to throw yourself heart and soul into a fringe issue which has nothing to do with your platform. UK Labour party? It is all about Palestine. Scotch Green, it would be far too sensible to concentrate on issues which are green, and Scotch, even though by doing so you could make yourself a serious political player.
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 7,100
    Leon said:

    Welcome back, Miss @Cyclefree

    Absolutely.

    Why would this be such a totemic issues for the Scottish Greens? Where else have they flexed their muscles on policy?
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 13,902
    edited November 20
    I admit I don't really understand the issues around trans versus women's rights, but I get the impression people who are thoughtful and want to do the right thing are treading warily on this. For the timebeing I am willing to give Nicola Sturgeon the benefit of the doubt - that she is tackling something she doesn't think has a clear solution but isn't in a position to say so.

    She is after all a woman, and a somewhat feminist one at that.
  • pingping Posts: 3,175
    FPT;
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    ydoethur said:

    I guess Farage, Leon, and other idiots will be cheering for Iran tomorrow.

    England players are taking the knee tomorrow.

    Taking the knee is not a bad action.

    But if they really wanted to make a political point, they should burn a hijab as well.
    No, the England team should do THIS

    "Message to the @England football team at the #WorldCup for the game v Islamic Republic of Iran 🇮🇷 on Monday. We think it would be amazing if you did this. It would mean more than you could ever imagine."


    https://twitter.com/omid9/status/1594065798867615749?s=20&t=SMY1I5rafU2lUYcStTOiRA

    That would be truly brave. I hope one of the players has the cullions to give it a go if they score
    How would you feel if they all did that while taking the knee kneeling before the game?
    They can do it butt naked and painted in woad, I don't mind, I just really really want them to do the symbolic hair-snip

    If you go on Iranian Protest Twitter you realise this gesture of solidarity TRULY means a lot to them. And all of Iran will be watching this game
    Not sure it would be particularly helpful, though.

    Few in Iran, even among the protesters, are fond of the British. It also gives further ammunition to the clerics and the politicians to paint the protests as foreign inspired and fundamentally anti-Iranian.

    Still, if I were an England footballer, I’d probably do it. Bonus points for humiliating Qatar and FIFA.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 54,579
    pillsbury said:

    ydoethur said:

    Like pretty much all politics these days, it’s about integrity.

    I have to say I disagree. It can't be about what doesn't exist. It's about lack of integrity.

    Sturgeon is a particularly egregious example, but we have Shapps, Braverman, Patel, Johnson, all of whom seem to be pathologically incapable of telling the truth.

    I won't say they would never have survived in an earlier era. Disraeli, Pitt, Lloyd George, Asquith, Churchill all deliberately misled Parliament. All of them made it to be Prime Minister. But it does seem as though lying has become normalised.

    On the substance of the article, perhaps the Greens simply can't advance their real agenda - which seems to involve going back to the Stone Age - so are suing this as a distraction to conceal the fact they are not in fact achieving anything worthwhile?

    No, it is more that it's a rule of lefty politics that you have to throw yourself heart and soul into a fringe issue which has nothing to do with your platform. UK Labour party? It is all about Palestine. Scotch Green, it would be far too sensible to concentrate on issues which are green, and Scotch, even though by doing so you could make yourself a serious political player.
    Which is in its own way rather sad, as Scotland could probably become have pretty much a non-carbon grid in fairly short order if it really put its mind to it.

    Also stupid, as that would go some way to making up for the gaping holes left in the economic projections for an independent Scotland by the collapsing oil industry.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 19,930
    Thanks Cyclefree for the article.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 28,469
    The stadium is half empty. What a catastrophic beginning
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 72,768
    edited November 20
    Elon Musk is considering firing more Twitter Inc. employees as soon as Monday, this time targeting the sales and partnership side of the business

    https://www.bnnbloomberg.ca/musk-considers-further-twitter-layoffs-in-sales-on-monday-1.1848816

    At this rate it is going to be him and George Hotz.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 23,609
    Leon said:

    The stadium is half empty. What a catastrophic beginning

    No, no, no, that sort of attitude will never do!

    The bungs have all been paid and siphoned off; the tournament is already a brilliant success.
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 8,429

    What's the reflexive pronoun for people whose pronoun is ze?

    Zitself?

    Even if one of your best friends decided they wanted 'ze' I really can't imagine you'd ever really accept that. A very good friend of mine changed her first name some years ago. It took me many years to be reliable in calling her by her new name.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 28,101
    FF43 said:

    I am willing to give Nicola Sturgeon the benefit of the doubt - that she is tackling something she doesn't think has a clear solution but isn't in a position to say so.

    She is after all a woman, and a somewhat feminist one at that.

    Ask J K Rowling
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 36,143
    What a dull second half, no energy at all. You could tell the stadium was half empty. Even my wife noticed it and she's not exactly much of football fan.

    Alex Scott once again has proved that she's a first rate presenter. Enjoyed how she completely laid into Qatar and FIFA at the beginning. I was worried that presenters would hold back but they aren't, they are using their positions to raise all the right subjects.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 29,974
    edited November 20
    FF43 said:

    I admit I don't really understand the issues around trans versus women's rights, but I get the impression people who are thoughtful and want to do the right thing are treading warily on this. For the timebeing I am willing to give Nicola Sturgeon the benefit of the doubt - that she is tackling something she doesn't think has a clear solution but isn't in a position to say so.

    She is after all a woman, and a somewhat feminist one at that.

    The problem here is that, to date, nearly all progressive issues have been one way. That is improve the rights of a “protected” group, that’s it.

    This issue is new, in that there is an issue of the rights of 2 “protected” groups. This shouldn’t be a surprise. Much of government in a socially democratic liberal democracy is about arbitrating when rights of groups meet.

    However, having to choose, like this, is unfamiliar to many of a progressive bent. How can a progressive measure be less than an alloyed good? An obvious truth?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 28,469
    A terrible match in a half empty stadium. The opening game of the World Cup. The fans who remain chant "we want beer"

    What a farce


    "Ecuador fans are chanting "Queremos Cerveza" at the World Cup in Qatar.

    Translation: "We want beer.""

    https://twitter.com/2022_QatarWC/status/1594382828179173376?s=20&t=-6296l9wXBtSw2JXtL1Ggg
  • An interesting thread. I'll also be interested to see what some of our resident ScotsNats think about it.

    Is the stadium really half-full ? No wonder the hosts are getting a bit irritable these days.
  • Great to see the well-written and argued thread headers from @Cyclefree back again.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 29,974
    ydoethur said:

    pillsbury said:

    ydoethur said:

    Like pretty much all politics these days, it’s about integrity.

    I have to say I disagree. It can't be about what doesn't exist. It's about lack of integrity.

    Sturgeon is a particularly egregious example, but we have Shapps, Braverman, Patel, Johnson, all of whom seem to be pathologically incapable of telling the truth.

    I won't say they would never have survived in an earlier era. Disraeli, Pitt, Lloyd George, Asquith, Churchill all deliberately misled Parliament. All of them made it to be Prime Minister. But it does seem as though lying has become normalised.

    On the substance of the article, perhaps the Greens simply can't advance their real agenda - which seems to involve going back to the Stone Age - so are suing this as a distraction to conceal the fact they are not in fact achieving anything worthwhile?

    No, it is more that it's a rule of lefty politics that you have to throw yourself heart and soul into a fringe issue which has nothing to do with your platform. UK Labour party? It is all about Palestine. Scotch Green, it would be far too sensible to concentrate on issues which are green, and Scotch, even though by doing so you could make yourself a serious political player.
    Which is in its own way rather sad, as Scotland could probably become have pretty much a non-carbon grid in fairly short order if it really put its mind to it.

    Also stupid, as that would go some way to making up for the gaping holes left in the economic projections for an independent Scotland by the collapsing oil industry.
    A friend, a while back, was pushed out of the Green Party in England. Because he wanted to concentrate on reducing pollution (CO2 and other things) rather than hard left “Social Justice”.

    So they lost a councillor who had done a lot of quiet good.
  • pillsburypillsbury Posts: 181
    First ever first match loss by host country. Ever since 1930.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 28,469

    An interesting thread. I'll also be interested to see what some of our resident ScotsNats think about it.

    Is the stadium really half-full ? No wonder the hosts are getting a bit irritable these days.

    Apparently many thousands left at half time. No one knows why. TBF the football was fecking crap, I would have left as well


  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 4,214
    Leon said:

    A terrible match in a half empty stadium. The opening game of the World Cup. The fans who remain chant "we want beer"

    What a farce


    "Ecuador fans are chanting "Queremos Cerveza" at the World Cup in Qatar.

    Translation: "We want beer.""

    https://twitter.com/2022_QatarWC/status/1594382828179173376?s=20&t=-6296l9wXBtSw2JXtL1Ggg

    Infantino: ‘today, I am thirsty’
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 81,229
    MaxPB said:

    What a dull second half, no energy at all. You could tell the stadium was half empty.

    Better than filling it with vuvuzela noise.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 81,229
    edited November 20
    Heathener said:

    Politicalbetting would be a far better place if people stopped writing articles and comments about trans issues.

    It's irrelevant to politics and it brings out the worst in the hard right wingers and trans exclusionary radical feminists.

    Let people get on with their lives and stop f-ing obsessing about an irrelevant topic in the grand scheme.

    Except 'getting on with their lives' is involving leglislative changes, not maintaining a status quo. If things are being proposed, for better or worse, there will be people opposing those proposals. So your suggestion is in fact that changes should be made to laws and there shouldn't be commenting on it?

    You are right it is a minor issue in the grand scheme of things but it is very clearly a live issue in modern politics. So talking about it less? Sure. But not at all because it is 'obsessing'? That's hardly fair.

    What other issues of fringe importance are being made into law, or proposed to be made into law, should people not talk about because we should let people 'get on with their lives'?

    I do agree with you that this issue takes up a lot more time than it deserves, that's a fair criticism. But we cannot simulataneously say it is irrelevant, but also see that political capital, time and energy is being spent on it, for reasons of what they claim to be of great importance.
  • pillsburypillsbury Posts: 181
    Heathener said:

    Politicalbetting would be a far better place if people stopped writing articles and comments about trans issues.

    It's irrelevant to politics and it brings out the worst in the hard right wingers and trans exclusionary radical feminists.

    Let people get on with their lives and stop f-ing obsessing about an irrelevant topic in the grand scheme.

    It's a highly political issue. Merely by using the expression trans exclusionary radical feminists you are taking a political side (the wrong one).

    you happy about Katie Dolatowski?
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 8,429
    ydoethur said:

    Heathener said:

    Politicalbetting would be a far better place if people stopped writing articles and comments about trans issues.

    It's irrelevant to politics and it brings out the worst in the hard right wingers and trans exclusionary radical feminists.

    Let people get on with their lives and stop f-ing obsessing about an irrelevant topic in the grand scheme.

    If it is irrelevant to politics, why are politicians expending so much energy on it?
    I think it's pretty easy to argue that they should have, and should have had, their eyes on bigger issues.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 23,609
    Leon said:

    An interesting thread. I'll also be interested to see what some of our resident ScotsNats think about it.

    Is the stadium really half-full ? No wonder the hosts are getting a bit irritable these days.

    Apparently many thousands left at half time. No one knows why. TBF the football was fecking crap, I would have left as well

    Did they get paid for turning up and leave once the money hit heir account?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 54,579
    Omnium said:

    ydoethur said:

    Heathener said:

    Politicalbetting would be a far better place if people stopped writing articles and comments about trans issues.

    It's irrelevant to politics and it brings out the worst in the hard right wingers and trans exclusionary radical feminists.

    Let people get on with their lives and stop f-ing obsessing about an irrelevant topic in the grand scheme.

    If it is irrelevant to politics, why are politicians expending so much energy on it?
    I think it's pretty easy to argue that they should have, and should have had, their eyes on bigger issues.
    Undoubtedly.

    But while they are not setting their sights on bigger issues, it isn't irrelevant to political observers.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 36,143
    Leon said:

    An interesting thread. I'll also be interested to see what some of our resident ScotsNats think about it.

    Is the stadium really half-full ? No wonder the hosts are getting a bit irritable these days.

    Apparently many thousands left at half time. No one knows why. TBF the football was fecking crap, I would have left as well


    They probably got paid at half time.
  • pillsburypillsbury Posts: 181
    The political ramifications are much, wider than the issue itself. It is an assault on truth, reason and common sense to say that a man who says he thinks he is a woman and (optionally) has his dick chopped off, is a woman. There is just no coherent case to be made here, except shoutiness. It seems to me that if you can establish the "fact" by mere shoutiness you can just as reasonably establish that, say, Jews are not human beings.
  • Its Dr John's birthday

    He was probably my favourite ever pianist. So, I thought I'd share him singing with The Band on The Last Waltz

    RIP Mac Rebennack

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V8MmDr838E8
  • barrykennabarrykenna Posts: 202
    I have spent much of the last 24 hours watching a replay of the BBC 1970 Election results broadcast. In many ways it was very similar to today though better quality in that it was much less of a chatshow cluttered with silly gimmicks. Only the ties - and a few hairstyles - really dated it other than the absence of women presenters and reporters. I was though constantly being reminded that the people I was watching - both politicians and broadcasters - are now dead -- a good 95% I would estimate with exceptions being David Dimbleby, Alan Watson and Richard Kershaw . On Day 2 members of the public were interviewed at Exeter and Barnstaple, and I was very surprised at the sympathy expressed for Ian Smith in Rhodesia and the hopes that Heath's Government would reach a settlement there. It made me reflect a lot on that issue, and I was left wondering why Wilson had not shown the same zeal in ousting Ian Smith that Blair did with Saddam Hussein over 30 years later.
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 8,429
    ydoethur said:

    Omnium said:

    ydoethur said:

    Heathener said:

    Politicalbetting would be a far better place if people stopped writing articles and comments about trans issues.

    It's irrelevant to politics and it brings out the worst in the hard right wingers and trans exclusionary radical feminists.

    Let people get on with their lives and stop f-ing obsessing about an irrelevant topic in the grand scheme.

    If it is irrelevant to politics, why are politicians expending so much energy on it?
    I think it's pretty easy to argue that they should have, and should have had, their eyes on bigger issues.
    Undoubtedly.

    But while they are not setting their sights on bigger issues, it isn't irrelevant to political observers.
    Of course not irrelevant but clearly for the time being insoluble. There's no path forward, so just wait until there is, and in the meantime make sure that we're as helpful as we can be.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 28,469
    kle4 said:

    Heathener said:

    Politicalbetting would be a far better place if people stopped writing articles and comments about trans issues.

    It's irrelevant to politics and it brings out the worst in the hard right wingers and trans exclusionary radical feminists.

    Let people get on with their lives and stop f-ing obsessing about an irrelevant topic in the grand scheme.

    Except 'getting on with their lives' is involving leglislative changes, not maintaining a status quo. If things are being proposed, for better or worse, there will be people opposing those proposals. So your suggestion is in fact that changes should be made to laws and there shouldn't be commenting on it?

    You are right it is a minor issue in the grand scheme of things but it is very clearly a live issue in modern politics. So talking about it less? Sure. But not at all because it is 'obsessing'? That's hardly fair.

    What other issues of fringe importance are being made into law, or proposed to be made into law, should people not talk about because we should let people 'get on with their lives'?

    I do agree with you that this issue takes up a lot more time than it deserves, that's a fair criticism. But we cannot simulataneously say it is irrelevant, but also see that political capital, time and energy is being spent on it, for reasons of what they claim to be of great importance.
    Indeed


    Moreover, it is "not even a trivial issue in the grand scheme". It is an attempt to redefine, in law, how individual humans identify by sex. It is momentous and fundamental. It is arguably MORE important than, say, inflation, which is a grim economic fact but will likely be transient, and we have seen it before

    This new attempt to change the definitions of gender and sex is unprecedented, and could alter human society in ways we cannot imagine. It needs plenty of vigorous debate
  • Its Dr John's birthday

    He was probably my favourite ever pianist. So, I thought I'd share him singing with The Band on The Last Waltz

    RIP Mac Rebennack

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V8MmDr838E8

    One of my greatest musical regrets us never getting to see him live. The man was truly a genius.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 29,974
    Leon said:

    kle4 said:

    Heathener said:

    Politicalbetting would be a far better place if people stopped writing articles and comments about trans issues.

    It's irrelevant to politics and it brings out the worst in the hard right wingers and trans exclusionary radical feminists.

    Let people get on with their lives and stop f-ing obsessing about an irrelevant topic in the grand scheme.

    Except 'getting on with their lives' is involving leglislative changes, not maintaining a status quo. If things are being proposed, for better or worse, there will be people opposing those proposals. So your suggestion is in fact that changes should be made to laws and there shouldn't be commenting on it?

    You are right it is a minor issue in the grand scheme of things but it is very clearly a live issue in modern politics. So talking about it less? Sure. But not at all because it is 'obsessing'? That's hardly fair.

    What other issues of fringe importance are being made into law, or proposed to be made into law, should people not talk about because we should let people 'get on with their lives'?

    I do agree with you that this issue takes up a lot more time than it deserves, that's a fair criticism. But we cannot simulataneously say it is irrelevant, but also see that political capital, time and energy is being spent on it, for reasons of what they claim to be of great importance.
    Indeed


    Moreover, it is "not even a trivial issue in the grand scheme". It is an attempt to redefine, in law, how individual humans identify by sex. It is momentous and fundamental. It is arguably MORE important than, say, inflation, which is a grim economic fact but will likely be transient, and we have seen it before

    This new attempt to change the definitions of gender and sex is unprecedented, and could alter human society in ways we cannot imagine. It needs plenty of vigorous debate
    “ stop f-ing obsessing about an irrelevant topic in the grand scheme.” = shut up and believe what I tell you.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 24,267

    Its Dr John's birthday

    He was probably my favourite ever pianist. So, I thought I'd share him singing with The Band on The Last Waltz

    RIP Mac Rebennack

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V8MmDr838E8

    And the Last Waltz gets even better if you watch it straight after This is Spinal Tap.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 28,101
    pillsbury said:

    The political ramifications are much, wider than the issue itself. It is an assault on truth, reason and common sense

    Like Brexit

  • FPT
    ping said:

    Looks like Ecuador are assured of three points.

    Brazil and Argentina flags everywhere in Calicut, in north Kerala. Followed by Portugal. Massive cardboard cut-outs of Neymar, Messi and Ronaldo abound too! Big screen on the beach!

    Are you there, now?

    I had a fun couple of weeks in Kerala, a few years back.
    Glad you had a good time! Yes, here since Friday.



  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 24,267
    Job done in first quarter by Ecuador.
    Football will improve.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 28,469
    dixiedean said:

    Job done in first quarter by Ecuador.
    Football will improve.

    Well, it could not get worse, could it?

    The BBC did the stats on that match, it had the equal-lowest number of shots in a World Cup since records began. So it was officially the joint-worst World Cup match ever
  • Heathener said:

    Politicalbetting would be a far better place if people stopped writing articles and comments about trans issues.

    It's irrelevant to politics and it brings out the worst in the hard right wingers and trans exclusionary radical feminists.

    Let people get on with their lives and stop f-ing obsessing about an irrelevant topic in the grand scheme.

    With respect it is not your place to decide on topics for discussion and @Cyclefree is a very respected poster

    If you do not like it then so be it
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 54,579
    dixiedean said:

    Job done in first quarter by Ecuador.
    Football will improve.

    First Qatar, shurely?
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 8,429

    Heathener said:

    Politicalbetting would be a far better place if people stopped writing articles and comments about trans issues.

    It's irrelevant to politics and it brings out the worst in the hard right wingers and trans exclusionary radical feminists.

    Let people get on with their lives and stop f-ing obsessing about an irrelevant topic in the grand scheme.

    With respect it is not your place to decide on topics for discussion and @Cyclefree is a very respected poster

    If you do not like it then so be it
    The header starts with saying it's not about trans rights. I've no idea what @Cyclefree intended, and I don't know what @Heathener was specifically commenting on, but the actual details of he/she/whatever seem to be a bit of a dead end for PB discussions.
  • Heathener said:

    Politicalbetting would be a far better place if people stopped writing articles and comments about trans issues.

    It's irrelevant to politics and it brings out the worst in the hard right wingers and trans exclusionary radical feminists.

    Let people get on with their lives and stop f-ing obsessing about an irrelevant topic in the grand scheme.

    How can you be right-wing AND a feminist?
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 28,101
    Fifa have banned Harry Kane and England from wearing the 'OneLove' armband at World Cup.

    ✍️ @SamWallaceTel and @JBurtTelegraph

    #TelegraphFootball #FIFAWorldCup
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 8,429

    Heathener said:

    Politicalbetting would be a far better place if people stopped writing articles and comments about trans issues.

    It's irrelevant to politics and it brings out the worst in the hard right wingers and trans exclusionary radical feminists.

    Let people get on with their lives and stop f-ing obsessing about an irrelevant topic in the grand scheme.

    How can you be right-wing AND a feminist?
    Come along the Tories have had 2.01 female PMs and Labour none.
  • ydoethur said:

    dixiedean said:

    Job done in first quarter by Ecuador.
    Football will improve.

    First Qatar, shurely?
    Being Bahrain, as the Pet Shop Boys might say.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 13,902

    FF43 said:

    I admit I don't really understand the issues around trans versus women's rights, but I get the impression people who are thoughtful and want to do the right thing are treading warily on this. For the timebeing I am willing to give Nicola Sturgeon the benefit of the doubt - that she is tackling something she doesn't think has a clear solution but isn't in a position to say so.

    She is after all a woman, and a somewhat feminist one at that.

    The problem here is that, to date, nearly all progressive issues have been one way. That is improve the rights of a “protected” group, that’s it.

    This issue is new, in that there is an issue of the rights of 2 “protected” groups. This shouldn’t be a surprise. Much of government in a socially democratic liberal democracy is about arbitrating when rights of groups meet.

    However, having to choose, like this, is unfamiliar to many of a progressive bent. How can a progressive measure be less than an alloyed good? An obvious truth?
    I get that, in broad terms we have conflicting rights. So what do you do? Do you not bother to reconcile the irreconcilable - which I suspect is Sturgeon's position? Or do you attempt futilely to bridge two entrenched positions? (One or both of which might be justifiably entrenched for what I know?)
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 24,267
    Leon said:

    dixiedean said:

    Job done in first quarter by Ecuador.
    Football will improve.

    Well, it could not get worse, could it?

    The BBC did the stats on that match, it had the equal-lowest number of shots in a World Cup since records began. So it was officially the joint-worst World Cup match ever
    Fair point. Well made. Must confess I fell asleep.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 29,974

    Heathener said:

    Politicalbetting would be a far better place if people stopped writing articles and comments about trans issues.

    It's irrelevant to politics and it brings out the worst in the hard right wingers and trans exclusionary radical feminists.

    Let people get on with their lives and stop f-ing obsessing about an irrelevant topic in the grand scheme.

    How can you be right-wing AND a feminist?
    That belief has been sold by a lot of left wingers who think they own the issue. Bit like Rishi Sunak isn’t allowed to be a Tory because he is not white.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 81,229

    I have spent much of the last 24 hours watching a replay of the BBC 1970 Election results broadcast.

    Any particular reason to settle on that one?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 81,229

    Heathener said:

    Politicalbetting would be a far better place if people stopped writing articles and comments about trans issues.

    It's irrelevant to politics and it brings out the worst in the hard right wingers and trans exclusionary radical feminists.

    Let people get on with their lives and stop f-ing obsessing about an irrelevant topic in the grand scheme.

    With respect it is not your place to decide on topics for discussion and @Cyclefree is a very respected poster

    If you do not like it then so be it
    That's a bit rude - Heathener is entitled to express their opinion too.
  • DrkBDrkB Posts: 68
    Scott_xP said:

    Fifa have banned Harry Kane and England from wearing the 'OneLove' armband at World Cup.

    ✍️ @SamWallaceTel and @JBurtTelegraph

    #TelegraphFootball #FIFAWorldCup

    to be fair this was pointless virtue signalling by england, im pretty sure many of the players would be uncomfortable with an openly gay player in the dressing room regardless of what they say.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 81,229

    FPT

    ping said:

    Looks like Ecuador are assured of three points.

    Brazil and Argentina flags everywhere in Calicut, in north Kerala. Followed by Portugal. Massive cardboard cut-outs of Neymar, Messi and Ronaldo abound too! Big screen on the beach!

    Are you there, now?

    I had a fun couple of weeks in Kerala, a few years back.
    Glad you had a good time! Yes, here since Friday.

    How are the trains in Kerala?
  • darkagedarkage Posts: 3,200

    Heathener said:

    Politicalbetting would be a far better place if people stopped writing articles and comments about trans issues.

    It's irrelevant to politics and it brings out the worst in the hard right wingers and trans exclusionary radical feminists.

    Let people get on with their lives and stop f-ing obsessing about an irrelevant topic in the grand scheme.

    With respect it is not your place to decide on topics for discussion and @Cyclefree is a very respected poster

    If you do not like it then so be it
    It is a topic where it is important to have a debate, because public understanding is poor.

    I find it difficult to believe that anyone could seriously look in to it and come away with the view that it is a 'minor' or 'irrelevant' issue.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 81,229
    DrkB said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Fifa have banned Harry Kane and England from wearing the 'OneLove' armband at World Cup.

    ✍️ @SamWallaceTel and @JBurtTelegraph

    #TelegraphFootball #FIFAWorldCup

    to be fair this was pointless virtue signalling by england, im pretty sure many of the players would be uncomfortable with an openly gay player in the dressing room regardless of what they say.
    In this day and age fewer than you may think, though it is strange there are not more prominent gay footballers.

    They could get a tattoo saying OneLove?
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 10,411
    Heathener said:

    Politicalbetting would be a far better place if people stopped writing articles and comments about trans issues.

    It's irrelevant to politics and it brings out the worst in the hard right wingers and trans exclusionary radical feminists.

    Let people get on with their lives and stop f-ing obsessing about an irrelevant topic in the grand scheme.

    Oh yes, let’s stop talking about it because it embarrasses the left. Seriously? It is relevant to politics, it is of interest to people and it’s not just the hard right who think Sturgeon and the SNP are making an arse of themselves, sadly not as reported in England as it should.
    PB discusses a lot of stuff. The only people who have the right to say what is and isn’t discussed is OGH and the mods.
  • Its Dr John's birthday

    He was probably my favourite ever pianist. So, I thought I'd share him singing with The Band on The Last Waltz

    RIP Mac Rebennack

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V8MmDr838E8

    One of my greatest musical regrets us never getting to see him live. The man was truly a genius.
    I'm so glad I got to see Allen Toussaint before he died

    It was at the Jazz Cafe in Camden and Jose Feliciano, who was playing the next two nights there, turned up near the end and did a couple of songs with him

    Toussaint on Jools Holland
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3lY8kmocAjE
  • DrkBDrkB Posts: 68
    kle4 said:

    DrkB said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Fifa have banned Harry Kane and England from wearing the 'OneLove' armband at World Cup.

    ✍️ @SamWallaceTel and @JBurtTelegraph

    #TelegraphFootball #FIFAWorldCup

    to be fair this was pointless virtue signalling by england, im pretty sure many of the players would be uncomfortable with an openly gay player in the dressing room regardless of what they say.
    In this day and age fewer than you may think, though it is strange there are not more prominent gay footballers.

    They could get a tattoo saying OneLove?
    but would you expect as many gay footballers as say actors...maybe not i would say
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 13,902
    DrkB said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Fifa have banned Harry Kane and England from wearing the 'OneLove' armband at World Cup.

    ✍️ @SamWallaceTel and @JBurtTelegraph

    #TelegraphFootball #FIFAWorldCup

    to be fair this was pointless virtue signalling by england, im pretty sure many of the players would be uncomfortable with an openly gay player in the dressing room regardless of what they say.
    Isn't that exactly why the OneLove armband might be needed?
  • barrykennabarrykenna Posts: 202
    kle4 said:

    I have spent much of the last 24 hours watching a replay of the BBC 1970 Election results broadcast.

    Any particular reason to settle on that one?
    Inspired by David Butler's passing to see him in action in his prime. It was also the first colour Election broadcast - though most viewers will havw still been watching black& white!
  • DrkBDrkB Posts: 68
    FF43 said:

    DrkB said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Fifa have banned Harry Kane and England from wearing the 'OneLove' armband at World Cup.

    ✍️ @SamWallaceTel and @JBurtTelegraph

    #TelegraphFootball #FIFAWorldCup

    to be fair this was pointless virtue signalling by england, im pretty sure many of the players would be uncomfortable with an openly gay player in the dressing room regardless of what they say.
    Isn't that exactly why the OneLove armband might be needed?
    but to do it in qatar where gays are reviled would be deliberately inflammatory
  • kle4 said:


    FPT

    ping said:

    Looks like Ecuador are assured of three points.

    Brazil and Argentina flags everywhere in Calicut, in north Kerala. Followed by Portugal. Massive cardboard cut-outs of Neymar, Messi and Ronaldo abound too! Big screen on the beach!

    Are you there, now?

    I had a fun couple of weeks in Kerala, a few years back.
    Glad you had a good time! Yes, here since Friday.

    How are the trains in Kerala?
    This might come as quite a shock, but haven't ridden any trains in India since 2002! That said the coastal route in northern Kerala has been doubled and electrified since then.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 8,821
    edited November 20
    DrkB said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Fifa have banned Harry Kane and England from wearing the 'OneLove' armband at World Cup.

    ✍️ @SamWallaceTel and @JBurtTelegraph

    #TelegraphFootball #FIFAWorldCup

    to be fair this was pointless virtue signalling by england, im pretty sure many of the players would be uncomfortable with an openly gay player in the dressing room regardless of what they say.
    Surely your post neatly demonstrates that it's anything but pointless - whether one reads it as a reflection of bigotry on the players' part or bigotry on your own!
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 36,143
    FF43 said:

    FF43 said:

    I admit I don't really understand the issues around trans versus women's rights, but I get the impression people who are thoughtful and want to do the right thing are treading warily on this. For the timebeing I am willing to give Nicola Sturgeon the benefit of the doubt - that she is tackling something she doesn't think has a clear solution but isn't in a position to say so.

    She is after all a woman, and a somewhat feminist one at that.

    The problem here is that, to date, nearly all progressive issues have been one way. That is improve the rights of a “protected” group, that’s it.

    This issue is new, in that there is an issue of the rights of 2 “protected” groups. This shouldn’t be a surprise. Much of government in a socially democratic liberal democracy is about arbitrating when rights of groups meet.

    However, having to choose, like this, is unfamiliar to many of a progressive bent. How can a progressive measure be less than an alloyed good? An obvious truth?
    I get that, in broad terms we have conflicting rights. So what do you do? Do you not bother to reconcile the irreconcilable - which I suspect is Sturgeon's position? Or do you attempt futilely to bridge two entrenched positions? (One or both of which might be justifiably entrenched for what I know?)
    You don't violate single sex spaces or decide that pretend "women" with she-cocks are allowed into female only spaces. You don't tell young girls who like cars and maths that, actually, they may be boys. You don't give those now confused girls life altering hormone treatment.

    That's for a start and non negotiable. Trampling over hard won sex based rights for women to please a few blokes who want to wear dresses but not have sex change surgery is ridiculous. Treating gender stereotypes as equivalent to being the wrong sex is scientifically unsound and frankly, stupid. Yet that's what Scotland has opened the door to.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 28,101
    kle4 said:

    DrkB said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Fifa have banned Harry Kane and England from wearing the 'OneLove' armband at World Cup.

    ✍️ @SamWallaceTel and @JBurtTelegraph

    #TelegraphFootball #FIFAWorldCup

    to be fair this was pointless virtue signalling by england, im pretty sure many of the players would be uncomfortable with an openly gay player in the dressing room regardless of what they say.
    In this day and age fewer than you may think, though it is strange there are not more prominent gay footballers.

    They could get a tattoo saying OneLove?
    On the Womens' side, it seems that most of them are gay
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 2,139
    Thank you for the thread @Cyclefree, and thank you @PBModerators for posting it.
    @WhisperingOracle , as a resident Scotsnat, I am truly scared about the influence that Stonewall have on the Scottish Government, both the SNP and the Greens. The Greens are a malign influence on Scottish politics. If anyone wonders where their priorities lie, they are the party that Andy Wightman, who is Scotland’s foremost land reform campaigner, felt was no longer able to remain as a Green MSP due to disagreement over female rights.
    Last week, a woman wearing a scarf in the suffragette colours was denied entry to the Holyrood chamber as it was deemed political - by a woman wearing a rainbow lanyard.
    As a Scottish Nationalist, I despair. If there is an independence referendum next year, it will be lost, and lost for a real generation, if not for a lifetime, due to the SNP allowing a small cabal taking over the party and denying party democracy.
  • pigeonpigeon Posts: 3,145
    DrkB said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Fifa have banned Harry Kane and England from wearing the 'OneLove' armband at World Cup.

    ✍️ @SamWallaceTel and @JBurtTelegraph

    #TelegraphFootball #FIFAWorldCup

    to be fair this was pointless virtue signalling by england, im pretty sure many of the players would be uncomfortable with an openly gay player in the dressing room regardless of what they say.
    Agree with the first point, not the second. The social attitudes of young people, save for the small minority who are particularly religious, have moved on even more than those of the population at large. There's no reason to suppose that a gay player would have much trouble from fellow professionals; pretty much all the abuse would come from the residual hooligan tendency amongst the so called fans. The football terrace holds, alas, a magnetic pull for backward, imbecilic men that no other institution in society (with the possible exception of the Metropolitan Police) can match.
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 8,429

    Its Dr John's birthday

    He was probably my favourite ever pianist. So, I thought I'd share him singing with The Band on The Last Waltz

    RIP Mac Rebennack

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V8MmDr838E8

    One of my greatest musical regrets us never getting to see him live. The man was truly a genius.
    I'm so glad I got to see Allen Toussaint before he died

    It was at the Jazz Cafe in Camden and Jose Feliciano, who was playing the next two nights there, turned up near the end and did a couple of songs with him

    Toussaint on Jools Holland
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3lY8kmocAjE
    Is there a connection with the famous Hatiian?
  • pillsburypillsbury Posts: 181
    DrkB said:

    kle4 said:

    DrkB said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Fifa have banned Harry Kane and England from wearing the 'OneLove' armband at World Cup.

    ✍️ @SamWallaceTel and @JBurtTelegraph

    #TelegraphFootball #FIFAWorldCup

    to be fair this was pointless virtue signalling by england, im pretty sure many of the players would be uncomfortable with an openly gay player in the dressing room regardless of what they say.
    In this day and age fewer than you may think, though it is strange there are not more prominent gay footballers.

    They could get a tattoo saying OneLove?
    but would you expect as many gay footballers as say actors...maybe not i would say
    Have you teleported here from the early 1970s?
  • DrkBDrkB Posts: 68
    pillsbury said:

    DrkB said:

    kle4 said:

    DrkB said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Fifa have banned Harry Kane and England from wearing the 'OneLove' armband at World Cup.

    ✍️ @SamWallaceTel and @JBurtTelegraph

    #TelegraphFootball #FIFAWorldCup

    to be fair this was pointless virtue signalling by england, im pretty sure many of the players would be uncomfortable with an openly gay player in the dressing room regardless of what they say.
    In this day and age fewer than you may think, though it is strange there are not more prominent gay footballers.

    They could get a tattoo saying OneLove?
    but would you expect as many gay footballers as say actors...maybe not i would say
    Have you teleported here from the early 1970s?
    so you think there are as many gay footballers as actors do you, its a view i suppose
  • ChrisChris Posts: 8,821
    DrkB said:

    FF43 said:

    DrkB said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Fifa have banned Harry Kane and England from wearing the 'OneLove' armband at World Cup.

    ✍️ @SamWallaceTel and @JBurtTelegraph

    #TelegraphFootball #FIFAWorldCup

    to be fair this was pointless virtue signalling by england, im pretty sure many of the players would be uncomfortable with an openly gay player in the dressing room regardless of what they say.
    Isn't that exactly why the OneLove armband might be needed?
    but to do it in qatar where gays are reviled would be deliberately inflammatory
    "The lady doth protest too much, methinks."

    ;-)
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 23,684
    Scott_xP said:

    Fifa have banned Harry Kane and England from wearing the 'OneLove' armband at World Cup.

    ✍️ @SamWallaceTel and @JBurtTelegraph

    #TelegraphFootball #FIFAWorldCup

    Time to bet on England not getting out of the group? I do hope there is a showdown and we tell FIFA to do one.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 41,859
    DrkB said:

    FF43 said:

    DrkB said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Fifa have banned Harry Kane and England from wearing the 'OneLove' armband at World Cup.

    ✍️ @SamWallaceTel and @JBurtTelegraph

    #TelegraphFootball #FIFAWorldCup

    to be fair this was pointless virtue signalling by england, im pretty sure many of the players would be uncomfortable with an openly gay player in the dressing room regardless of what they say.
    Isn't that exactly why the OneLove armband might be needed?
    but to do it in qatar where gays are reviled would be deliberately inflammatory
    One would have a lot more support for virtue signalling footballers, if their actions actually carried a risk.

    It’s easy to protest about something when most people will cheer you on, it takes real guts to do it when people will object.
  • pillsburypillsbury Posts: 181
    DrkB said:

    pillsbury said:

    DrkB said:

    kle4 said:

    DrkB said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Fifa have banned Harry Kane and England from wearing the 'OneLove' armband at World Cup.

    ✍️ @SamWallaceTel and @JBurtTelegraph

    #TelegraphFootball #FIFAWorldCup

    to be fair this was pointless virtue signalling by england, im pretty sure many of the players would be uncomfortable with an openly gay player in the dressing room regardless of what they say.
    In this day and age fewer than you may think, though it is strange there are not more prominent gay footballers.

    They could get a tattoo saying OneLove?
    but would you expect as many gay footballers as say actors...maybe not i would say
    Have you teleported here from the early 1970s?
    so you think there are as many gay footballers as actors do you, its a view i suppose
    It's a view which would naturally be held by anyone not intellectually constrained by a set of unconsidered early 70s golf club bar prejudices.

    I can absolutely first hand bloody promise you that prowess at traditional team sports is not positively correlated with male heterosexuality.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 10,411
    tlg86 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Fifa have banned Harry Kane and England from wearing the 'OneLove' armband at World Cup.

    ✍️ @SamWallaceTel and @JBurtTelegraph

    #TelegraphFootball #FIFAWorldCup

    Time to bet on England not getting out of the group? I do hope there is a showdown and we tell FIFA to do one.
    I have a nasty suspicion we aren’t getting out the group based on football reasons. Draw tomorrow and Friday, just need to beat Wales to go through? Nightmare scenario.
  • DriverDriver Posts: 2,025
    Heathener said:

    Politicalbetting would be a far better place if people stopped writing articles and comments about trans issues.

    It's irrelevant to politics and it brings out the worst in the hard right wingers and trans exclusionary radical feminists.

    Let people get on with their lives and stop f-ing obsessing about an irrelevant topic in the grand scheme.

    "People who disagree with me should shut up".
  • x
    Omnium said:

    Its Dr John's birthday

    He was probably my favourite ever pianist. So, I thought I'd share him singing with The Band on The Last Waltz

    RIP Mac Rebennack

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V8MmDr838E8

    One of my greatest musical regrets us never getting to see him live. The man was truly a genius.
    I'm so glad I got to see Allen Toussaint before he died

    It was at the Jazz Cafe in Camden and Jose Feliciano, who was playing the next two nights there, turned up near the end and did a couple of songs with him

    Toussaint on Jools Holland
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3lY8kmocAjE
    Is there a connection with the famous Hatiian?
    I'd love it if there were
  • ChrisChris Posts: 8,821
    Sandpit said:

    DrkB said:

    FF43 said:

    DrkB said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Fifa have banned Harry Kane and England from wearing the 'OneLove' armband at World Cup.

    ✍️ @SamWallaceTel and @JBurtTelegraph

    #TelegraphFootball #FIFAWorldCup

    to be fair this was pointless virtue signalling by england, im pretty sure many of the players would be uncomfortable with an openly gay player in the dressing room regardless of what they say.
    Isn't that exactly why the OneLove armband might be needed?
    but to do it in qatar where gays are reviled would be deliberately inflammatory
    One would have a lot more support for virtue signalling footballers, if their actions actually carried a risk.

    It’s easy to protest about something when most people will cheer you on, it takes real guts to do it when people will object.
    Such as FIFA, by the sound of it!
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 36,143

    tlg86 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Fifa have banned Harry Kane and England from wearing the 'OneLove' armband at World Cup.

    ✍️ @SamWallaceTel and @JBurtTelegraph

    #TelegraphFootball #FIFAWorldCup

    Time to bet on England not getting out of the group? I do hope there is a showdown and we tell FIFA to do one.
    I have a nasty suspicion we aren’t getting out the group based on football reasons. Draw tomorrow and Friday, just need to beat Wales to go through? Nightmare scenario.
    Nah, we should get through the group fine because Iran and the US won't be able to exploit our shit defence, it's the QF onwards which will cause issues because those players will be much better and take advantage of having Maguire and Dier in the back three.
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 8,429
    Leon said:

    The attempt to silence debate on the trans issue - seen here tonight, any in many other places in the last few years - is actually counter-productive. It makes me MORE suspicious that something sinister or deeply contentious is being attempted

    If you have a good case, you are happy to argue it. You don't quickly mumble "well this is what I want changed and it's too trivial for you to care so don't ever talk about it, you'll only encourage bigots"

    Is the excuse of finding it bewildering nonsense not sufficient? Whilst it's perfectly fine for these issues to be explored in law, it can't be a new thing. We've just got on with our lives and accepted that 'uncle whatever' is a bit odd for thousands of years. Clearly that precident isn't good, because there's a lot that is now illegal that whatsoever may have done. Equally there's much that may then have seen him hanged that is now entirely accepted.
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 2,139

    kle4 said:


    FPT

    ping said:

    Looks like Ecuador are assured of three points.

    Brazil and Argentina flags everywhere in Calicut, in north Kerala. Followed by Portugal. Massive cardboard cut-outs of Neymar, Messi and Ronaldo abound too! Big screen on the beach!

    Are you there, now?

    I had a fun couple of weeks in Kerala, a few years back.
    Glad you had a good time! Yes, here since Friday.

    How are the trains in Kerala?
    This might come as quite a shock, but haven't ridden any trains in India since 2002! That said the coastal route in northern Kerala has been doubled and electrified since then.
    Is there a connection between Kerala having a communist government and being the best educated and most prosperous region of India? PB Tories would like to know.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 10,411
    MaxPB said:

    tlg86 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Fifa have banned Harry Kane and England from wearing the 'OneLove' armband at World Cup.

    ✍️ @SamWallaceTel and @JBurtTelegraph

    #TelegraphFootball #FIFAWorldCup

    Time to bet on England not getting out of the group? I do hope there is a showdown and we tell FIFA to do one.
    I have a nasty suspicion we aren’t getting out the group based on football reasons. Draw tomorrow and Friday, just need to beat Wales to go through? Nightmare scenario.
    Nah, we should get through the group fine because Iran and the US won't be able to exploit our shit defence, it's the QF onwards which will cause issues because those players will be much better and take advantage of having Maguire and Dier in the back three.
    I hope you are right, but as I say I have a bad feeling about this.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 23,684
    Sandpit said:

    DrkB said:

    FF43 said:

    DrkB said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Fifa have banned Harry Kane and England from wearing the 'OneLove' armband at World Cup.

    ✍️ @SamWallaceTel and @JBurtTelegraph

    #TelegraphFootball #FIFAWorldCup

    to be fair this was pointless virtue signalling by england, im pretty sure many of the players would be uncomfortable with an openly gay player in the dressing room regardless of what they say.
    Isn't that exactly why the OneLove armband might be needed?
    but to do it in qatar where gays are reviled would be deliberately inflammatory
    One would have a lot more support for virtue signalling footballers, if their actions actually carried a risk.

    It’s easy to protest about something when most people will cheer you on, it takes real guts to do it when people will object.
    Precisely. My respect for them would go up big time if they stood their ground and got kicked our.
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