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Is this going to be Truss’s last week as PM? – politicalbetting.com

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  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,295

    Liz Truss = Henry VI circa 1470-71
    Jeremy Hunt = The Earl of Warwick

    Well, that's bad news for him given Warwick was killed in 1471 at the Battle of Barnet.
  • londonpubmanlondonpubman Posts: 3,639

    Scott_xP said:

    Tory rebels vow to bury fracking as they urge Liz Truss to make policy U-turn.

    MPs are confident they have the numbers to push back PM's plans to lift moratorium on shale gas exploration

    The Whips’ office is understood to be nervous about the number of Conservative backbenchers planning to abstain or even vote with Labour on Wednesday in an opposition day debate on fracking

    Full story here 👇

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2022/10/16/tory-rebels-vow-bury-fracking-urge-liz-truss-make-policy-u-turn/

    Damien Green on R4 this morning said he was ok with fracking as long as there was robust and extensive local consultation. Which he said he thought would lead to a vanishingly small amount of fracking…..
    Fracking is long gone. It will just disappear into the ether of forgotten policies...
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216

    What was wrong with the tourist VAT cuts?

    The fear was that with the UK out of the EU it would become very expensive. EU residents were not able to apply for it when we were in the EU.
  • SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,772

    Liz Truss = Henry VI circa 1470-71
    Jeremy Hunt = The Earl of Warwick

    Lol--- Just wait for Edward IV.

    Who would he be... Rishi?
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,691

    Amazing to remember that the Conservative Party didn't go for Hunt in 2019.

    I did. 🤷‍♂️
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,836

    Amazing to remember that the Conservative Party didn't go for Hunt in 2019.

    So a chance to put right two mistakes in one go...
  • eekeek Posts: 28,263
    MaxPB said:

    eek said:

    theProle said:

    Scott_xP said:

    BREAKING: Jeremy Hunt has taken a wrecking ball to Liz Truss's tax plans.

    *Says he will "reverse almost all the tax measures announced in the growth plan"
    *No longer cut dividend tax
    *Abandon IR35 changes
    *Won't cut basic rate of income tax, it remains at 20% indefinitely

    What a moron - the IR35 changes were one of the easy wins in the whole thing which almost certainly would have generated more growth than they cost.
    @MaxPB 's calculation shows that they may have cost way more than was estimated - I would argue that they don't because tax avoidance is now into the oh boy area...

    And remember it's not the tax side of IR35 that kills it for people, it's the lack of expenses which make working inside impossible...
    I also don't understand how a bunch of well paid employees working 5 days a week for a company becoming "contractors" working 5 days a week for a client now able to claim expenses and not pay employer's NI will generate growth.
    If you look at @Richard_Tyndall 's post you will see a lot of oil and gas people have gone abroad to work or retired.
    And in the NHS a lot of locum staff are now working minimum shifts because there is zero incentive to do more.

    The fact your bank abused IR35 for years to lower employment costs of technical staff doesn't mean that there isn't a benefit elsewhere in the economy from having flexible staff.
  • ..


  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,083
    The BoE should follow Hunt's lead and immediately raise the interest rate by 1.5%.

    Get the monetary policy ahead of the game like HJunt has just done with the fiscal stuff.
  • Another astonishing political week and its only 11.40 on Monday morning!

    But never mind how and whether Truss can survive this, its whether the Tory Party can survive this. I'm 46 but already feel I'm going to now see out my days under a series of progressive governments of the centre left or worse as the economic liberal alternatives are splintered between the headbanging right and whatever manages to resurrect from the ashes of the official Conservative and Unionist Party. I expect millions of us will feel utterly disenfranchised and left out.

    And barely a year ago it looked like we could still have a Boris second full term and maybe another Tory decade ahead of us, at least. Politics, eh?
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,503
    edited October 2022

    MaxPB said:

    The bankers bonus cap scrapping looks to have made it through unscathed 🥳

    Does that cost the Treasury anything though?

    Clearly bad politics mind
    It will make a fortune for the treasury, both in increased compensation for existing employees, and in encouraging job relocation from other jurisdictions. The “bonus cap” was an EU initiative designed to hobble the City.
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981

    Amazing to remember that the Conservative Party didn't go for Hunt in 2019.

    Some of us did... (weren't you still a member then?)
    Yes, I was a member until the day the result was announced.
    It must be a slam dunk that member's voting rights are abolished

    Bad day for Wee Willie Hague, Truss and Johnson will have been his most enduring effect on UK politics.
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 8,677

    Selebian said:

    Nigelb said:

    IanB2 said:

    LOL @ "The Prime Minister and I have agreed...."

    Hunt has a nice smile. With twinkling eyes...
    It could just be me, but to me it looks slightly demented.
    There's something of the rodent about him. Which is not necessarily a criticism; I've no particular dislike of rodents.

    image
    image
    I came back in cattle class with then F S Hunt on an ANA flight from Haneda. He was very agreeable.

    I can't imagine Johnson or Truss roughing it with the plebs for twelve hours.
    Truss, of course, came from lowly pleb stock, if she is to be believed. Twelve hours? She suffered twelve years of plebeian education
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,802
    It may be symbolic but if global Britain is ever going to mean anything surely Rishi Sunak, former resident of silicon valley, who's ascent to the premiership would create enormous interest in the most populous country in the world* and was an original Brexiteer, would be the ideal advocate.

    *It isn't clear if the Indian population now exceeds China's but it definitely will soon and for the rest of this century.
  • DriverDriver Posts: 4,947

    What was wrong with the tourist VAT cuts?

    Introduced by Truss.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,295

    ..


    I'm disappointed nobody has suggested she's gone to live in a donkey sanctuary in Surrey.
  • Dura_Ace said:

    As ever, Saint Bob provides the soundtrack...

    So long!
    So long Trusstafari call you
    So long!
    And now the enemies surround you
    Trying to devour you
    So long Trusstafari call you
    So long!

    No woman pm, no cry.
  • Meanwhile, in "not out of the woods yet" news...

    Initial reaction to Jeremy Hunt moves this morning - some quick calculations.
    Briefing suggests OBR was projecting medium term fiscal hole of £70bn.
    HMT estimates all tax reversal now raise £32bn...

    ...so still leaves £38bn hole to get debt falling as share of GDP in three years.
    Assume that favourable market reaction to U-turns lowers Gilt yields and interest rates by 1% - takes around £10bn off fiscal hole...

    ...still implies £28bn fiscal hole & £28bn of spending cuts.
    So the question for markets: are those cuts *politically* deliverable by Hunt/Truss?


    https://twitter.com/BenChu_/status/158195889908289126
  • DriverDriver Posts: 4,947

    MaxPB said:

    The bankers bonus cap scrapping looks to have made it through unscathed 🥳

    Does that cost the Treasury anything though?

    Clearly bad politics mind
    No, it clearly makes the Treasury money, because it will get taxed at 40/45% income tax rather than 20% corporation tax.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216

    Scott_xP said:

    Tory rebels vow to bury fracking as they urge Liz Truss to make policy U-turn.

    MPs are confident they have the numbers to push back PM's plans to lift moratorium on shale gas exploration

    The Whips’ office is understood to be nervous about the number of Conservative backbenchers planning to abstain or even vote with Labour on Wednesday in an opposition day debate on fracking

    Full story here 👇

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2022/10/16/tory-rebels-vow-bury-fracking-urge-liz-truss-make-policy-u-turn/

    Damien Green on R4 this morning said he was ok with fracking as long as there was robust and extensive local consultation. Which he said he thought would lead to a vanishingly small amount of fracking…..
    Fracking is long gone. It will just disappear into the ether of forgotten policies...
    It’s part of the (very) lazy thinking “The US does it, we should do it!” completely ignoring details like geology or population density..
  • RandallFlaggRandallFlagg Posts: 1,285

    Liz Truss = Henry VI circa 1470-71
    Jeremy Hunt = The Earl of Warwick

    Lol--- Just wait for Edward IV.

    Who would he be... Rishi?
    Considering Edward IV was previously ousted from the throne, Boris.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,905

    Liz Truss = Henry VI circa 1470-71
    Jeremy Hunt = The Earl of Warwick

    Pretty grim outlook for the rest of the country, then.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,836
    edited October 2022

    The Tories will seek to blame Truss for all this. But they as a party and a government are responsible. They all did it, not just her.

    It's just the aftermath of Johnson, who promoted her, was her role model, set the standard for the politics of fantasy, untruth and disregard for experts, lowered our expectations such that Truss became imaginable as PM, and worked behind the scenes to make sure Sunak didn't get the job.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 13,728
    Ishmael_Z said:

    Amazing to remember that the Conservative Party didn't go for Hunt in 2019.

    Some of us did... (weren't you still a member then?)
    Yes, I was a member until the day the result was announced.
    It must be a slam dunk that member's voting rights are abolished

    Bad day for Wee Willie Hague, Truss and Johnson will have been his most enduring effect on UK politics.
    A compromise with the membership: if electing a LOTO, the membership get a say. If electing a PM, the PLP does it.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,920
    The mini budget was just a feint. Our real objective was always the Donbass / tax rises.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,263
    Nigelb said:

    eek said:

    theProle said:

    Scott_xP said:

    BREAKING: Jeremy Hunt has taken a wrecking ball to Liz Truss's tax plans.

    *Says he will "reverse almost all the tax measures announced in the growth plan"
    *No longer cut dividend tax
    *Abandon IR35 changes
    *Won't cut basic rate of income tax, it remains at 20% indefinitely

    What a moron - the IR35 changes were one of the easy wins in the whole thing which almost certainly would have generated more growth than they cost.
    @MaxPB 's calculation shows that they may have cost way more than was estimated - I would argue that they don't because tax avoidance is now into the oh boy area...

    And remember it's not the tax side of IR35 that kills it for people, it's the lack of expenses which make working inside impossible...
    While there's a strong argument for doing something, actually thinking about what that might be, and the best way to formulate it, takes time. An emergency fiscal statement probably isn't the best occasion.

    Otherwise we just end up with another complicated mess in place for several years.

    (Note that those on this blog who actually know much about this - which doesn't include me - don't seem to have reached any consensus on the matter.)
    The issue is the post 2021 changes simply don't work for multiple reasons - which would take an hour or more to document...

    Reverting to the pre-2017 version isn't perfect but it would be way better than it was especially if it was made clear the employers have some say in the working relationship..

    What in reality we need is a whole new set of employment and tax employment laws that are relevant to the 21st rather than the 19th centuries. And that really would take time but the current system just isn't working (as demonstrated by a bank, shipping workers up here for 2 days next week because I'm not travelling down and they can't work out how to get me down there at their expense).
  • stjohnstjohn Posts: 1,861
    I've reversed out of all my Starmer next PM bets. Overall cost -£50. I stand to win £250 if/when Truss is NOT PM after the next GE.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,503

    What was wrong with the tourist VAT cuts?

    The fear was that with the UK out of the EU it would become very expensive. EU residents were not able to apply for it when we were in the EU.
    If the visitor VAT-free shopping is ready by Christmas, I will be - well, my wife will be - keeping the UK retail sector alive!

    More seriously, the difference between the Sunak and Kwarteng approaches to this one small issue, tells you all you need to know about why Kwarteng was right and Sunak wrong.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,479

    Scott_xP said:

    The cabinet just met to tell Liz Truss that her economic plan has gone to live on a farm.

    https://twitter.com/BrianSpanner1/status/1581953973937848320

    Oh no, not the farmy farm rumours again…
    One of the highest points of pb.com was farmy farm.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,691

    Meanwhile, in "not out of the woods yet" news...

    Initial reaction to Jeremy Hunt moves this morning - some quick calculations.
    Briefing suggests OBR was projecting medium term fiscal hole of £70bn.
    HMT estimates all tax reversal now raise £32bn...

    ...so still leaves £38bn hole to get debt falling as share of GDP in three years.
    Assume that favourable market reaction to U-turns lowers Gilt yields and interest rates by 1% - takes around £10bn off fiscal hole...

    ...still implies £28bn fiscal hole & £28bn of spending cuts.
    So the question for markets: are those cuts *politically* deliverable by Hunt/Truss?


    https://twitter.com/BenChu_/status/158195889908289126

    The energy price cap rejigging will probably be worth half of that number leaving just £14bn in cuts and tax rises requires. Some kind of tax rises targeting rentseeking/ers would probably raise half of that number too leaving just £7bn in spending cuts, not exactly earth shattering.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,263
    Cookie said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    Amazing to remember that the Conservative Party didn't go for Hunt in 2019.

    Some of us did... (weren't you still a member then?)
    Yes, I was a member until the day the result was announced.
    It must be a slam dunk that member's voting rights are abolished

    Bad day for Wee Willie Hague, Truss and Johnson will have been his most enduring effect on UK politics.
    A compromise with the membership: if electing a LOTO, the membership get a say. If electing a PM, the PLP does it.
    Which is how it should be - when electing a leader members have a say - when electing the PM only MPs have a say.
  • Scott_xP said:

    Tory rebels vow to bury fracking as they urge Liz Truss to make policy U-turn.

    MPs are confident they have the numbers to push back PM's plans to lift moratorium on shale gas exploration

    The Whips’ office is understood to be nervous about the number of Conservative backbenchers planning to abstain or even vote with Labour on Wednesday in an opposition day debate on fracking

    Full story here 👇

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2022/10/16/tory-rebels-vow-bury-fracking-urge-liz-truss-make-policy-u-turn/

    Damien Green on R4 this morning said he was ok with fracking as long as there was robust and extensive local consultation. Which he said he thought would lead to a vanishingly small amount of fracking…..
    Fracking is long gone. It will just disappear into the ether of forgotten policies...
    It’s part of the (very) lazy thinking “The US does it, we should do it!” completely ignoring details like geology or population density..
    Fracking was the canary in the mine for the Truss project.

    I was ranting away about it on here for a week or so as soon as she got in.

    The way Truss / Rees-Mogg came in and overturned policy on Fracking WAS. A. DISGRACE. and foretold what was coming in the next few weeks with the mini-budget. As per, the usual morons on here were dismissive.
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981
    Cookie said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    Amazing to remember that the Conservative Party didn't go for Hunt in 2019.

    Some of us did... (weren't you still a member then?)
    Yes, I was a member until the day the result was announced.
    It must be a slam dunk that member's voting rights are abolished

    Bad day for Wee Willie Hague, Truss and Johnson will have been his most enduring effect on UK politics.
    A compromise with the membership: if electing a LOTO, the membership get a say. If electing a PM, the PLP does it.
    Nope. The tory membership are Japan 1945, and we need to pop a Potsdam Declaration on their ass.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,479

    Dura_Ace said:

    As ever, Saint Bob provides the soundtrack...

    So long!
    So long Trusstafari call you
    So long!
    And now the enemies surround you
    Trying to devour you
    So long Trusstafari call you
    So long!

    No woman pm, no cry.
    Exodus
    Movement of the members....
  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 8,163
    IanB2 said:

    The Tories will seek to blame Truss for all this. But they as a party and a government are responsible. They all did it, not just her.

    It's just the aftermath of Johnson, who promoted her, was her role model, set the standard for the politics of fantasy, untruth and disregard for experts, and worked behind the scenes to make sure Sunak didn't get the job.
    Johnson AND Corbyn. Labour also get to share in the blame game. If they had not elected Corbyn then I doubt very much that Johnson would have had his 80 seat majority. He might even have lost from May's precarious position.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,691
    Did they previously outline what would happen to the financial sector corporate tax rate, is it still at 28% or will it go up to 34%? I think the latter might be a bit too high and could see established companies shift elsewhere.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,836
    stjohn said:

    I've reversed out of all my Starmer next PM bets. Overall cost -£50. I stand to win £250 if/when Truss is NOT PM after the next GE.

    Casino must have balls of steel...
  • bigglesbiggles Posts: 5,933
    If I was on the left of the Labour Party this would all worry me just as much as it worries the Moggs of this world. This is what the “grown ups” would have done to Corbyn, but for much smaller scale “sins”.

    We’re now in for at least 10-15 years of very middle of the road policies whoever wins the various elections. Welcome back to soft consensus land.
  • nico679nico679 Posts: 6,273
    No 10 apparently still blaming the global situation for the mini budget clusterfxck!

    Delusional !
  • solarflaresolarflare Posts: 3,705
    Anyone checked Truss hasn't actually resigned but Hunt has rolled it back?


  • Scott_xP said:

    Tory rebels vow to bury fracking as they urge Liz Truss to make policy U-turn.

    MPs are confident they have the numbers to push back PM's plans to lift moratorium on shale gas exploration

    The Whips’ office is understood to be nervous about the number of Conservative backbenchers planning to abstain or even vote with Labour on Wednesday in an opposition day debate on fracking

    Full story here 👇

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2022/10/16/tory-rebels-vow-bury-fracking-urge-liz-truss-make-policy-u-turn/

    Damien Green on R4 this morning said he was ok with fracking as long as there was robust and extensive local consultation. Which he said he thought would lead to a vanishingly small amount of fracking…..
    Fracking is long gone. It will just disappear into the ether of forgotten policies...
    It’s part of the (very) lazy thinking “The US does it, we should do it!” completely ignoring details like geology or population density..
    Fracking was the canary in the mine for the Truss project.

    I was ranting away about it on here for a week or so as soon as she got in.

    The way Truss / Rees-Mogg came in and overturned policy on Fracking WAS. A. DISGRACE. and foretold what was coming in the next few weeks with the mini-budget. As per, the usual morons on here were dismissive.
    Excuse me, TW, there are no morons on this Site. Entry qualifications are tough and strictly applied.

    This is not ConHome you know.
  • End of days, part 462.




  • bigglesbiggles Posts: 5,933
    edited October 2022
    Driver said:

    MaxPB said:

    The bankers bonus cap scrapping looks to have made it through unscathed 🥳

    Does that cost the Treasury anything though?

    Clearly bad politics mind
    No, it clearly makes the Treasury money, because it will get taxed at 40/45% income tax rather than 20% corporation tax.
    Quite a lot of it will probably get taxed as a marginal rate of 60% or so given we’re keeping the 45p rate (and I assume the personal allowance cliff edge). Smart move.
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 6,807
    biggles said:

    If I was on the left of the Labour Party this would all worry me just as much as it worries the Moggs of this world. This is what the “grown ups” would have done to Corbyn, but for much smaller scale “sins”.

    We’re now in for at least 10-15 years of very middle of the road policies whoever wins the various elections. Welcome back to soft consensus land.

    10-15 years of soft consensus land sounds delightful to me.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,905
    eek said:

    Nigelb said:

    eek said:

    theProle said:

    Scott_xP said:

    BREAKING: Jeremy Hunt has taken a wrecking ball to Liz Truss's tax plans.

    *Says he will "reverse almost all the tax measures announced in the growth plan"
    *No longer cut dividend tax
    *Abandon IR35 changes
    *Won't cut basic rate of income tax, it remains at 20% indefinitely

    What a moron - the IR35 changes were one of the easy wins in the whole thing which almost certainly would have generated more growth than they cost.
    @MaxPB 's calculation shows that they may have cost way more than was estimated - I would argue that they don't because tax avoidance is now into the oh boy area...

    And remember it's not the tax side of IR35 that kills it for people, it's the lack of expenses which make working inside impossible...
    While there's a strong argument for doing something, actually thinking about what that might be, and the best way to formulate it, takes time. An emergency fiscal statement probably isn't the best occasion.

    Otherwise we just end up with another complicated mess in place for several years.

    (Note that those on this blog who actually know much about this - which doesn't include me - don't seem to have reached any consensus on the matter.)
    The issue is the post 2021 changes simply don't work for multiple reasons - which would take an hour or more to document...

    Reverting to the pre-2017 version isn't perfect but it would be way better than it was especially if it was made clear the employers have some say in the working relationship..

    What in reality we need is a whole new set of employment and tax employment laws that are relevant to the 21st rather than the 19th centuries. And that really would take time but the current system just isn't working (as demonstrated by a bank, shipping workers up here for 2 days next week because I'm not travelling down and they can't work out how to get me down there at their expense).
    I'm not sure we're disagreeing all that much... or at least I'm not really disagreeing with you.
    As I said, I'm pretty ignorant of the ins and outs on this, but it's obvious that reform is needed, and the precise nature of what that ought to be is disputed.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 22,990
    Morning all. Just.

    Getting tasty in the splinter group stakes. Again. I have no idea why I found out about this.

    🚨 Breaking 🚨

    Scottish Green Party Conference has just voted pass our motion to suspend ties with the Green Party of England and Wales over institutional transphobia.

    #sgpconf

    https://twitter.com/rainbowgreens/status/1581674500050952192
  • eekeek Posts: 28,263
    MaxPB said:

    Did they previously outline what would happen to the financial sector corporate tax rate, is it still at 28% or will it go up to 34%? I think the latter might be a bit too high and could see established companies shift elsewhere.

    Where had Rishi set it? As I suspect that's where it now sits
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,994
    In the hands of the gods (or rather, markets) now. Next few hours determine if Truss is out this week or next year.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    I see Nicola Sturgeon & John Swinney have both welcomed the u-turn, but it does mean £460m less for Holyrood's budget (over three years)...at a point when it's still being hammered by inflation and the cost of public pay deals etc. Should still get £170m due to stamp duty cut...

    https://twitter.com/BBCPhilipSim/status/1581959801034055680
  • OllyTOllyT Posts: 5,006

    How can Truss remain in office?

    This is the worst political humiliation anyone can remember.

    Her entire platform totally torn to pieces.



    Nah! Just a flesh wound according to Barty
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,295
    It's worth remembering that Javid was the first ever Chancellor who didn't present a budget.

    We've now had in effect two in four months.
  • MightyAlexMightyAlex Posts: 1,651
    Prescient discussion on Ycombinator's Hacker News on AI and software development.

    https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33226515

    An unflattering synopsis is that when AI models were only 'replicating' artistic works, developers were generally all for it, or at least not too bothered. But now Microsoft has effectively scraped all their GitHub repositories to feed into their Copilot AI coding tool, they're less happy. It doesn't help that the system seems to be regurgitating whole blocks of code (that is under open source licences) even when told not to.

    The future is looking bleak for the low-end developer.
  • MattW said:

    Morning all. Just.

    Getting tasty in the splinter group stakes. Again. I have no idea why I found out about this.

    🚨 Breaking 🚨

    Scottish Green Party Conference has just voted pass our motion to suspend ties with the Green Party of England and Wales over institutional transphobia.

    #sgpconf

    https://twitter.com/rainbowgreens/status/1581674500050952192

    Since they were always separate parties (unlike say the SCons or SLab), I’m not sure how much splintering is involved.
  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 8,163
    kle4 said:

    In the hands of the gods (or rather, markets) now. Next few hours determine if Truss is out this week or next year.

    She will be gone this evening. They hold the 1922 meetings on Monday evening IIRC...
  • MaxPB said:

    Meanwhile, in "not out of the woods yet" news...

    Initial reaction to Jeremy Hunt moves this morning - some quick calculations.
    Briefing suggests OBR was projecting medium term fiscal hole of £70bn.
    HMT estimates all tax reversal now raise £32bn...

    ...so still leaves £38bn hole to get debt falling as share of GDP in three years.
    Assume that favourable market reaction to U-turns lowers Gilt yields and interest rates by 1% - takes around £10bn off fiscal hole...

    ...still implies £28bn fiscal hole & £28bn of spending cuts.
    So the question for markets: are those cuts *politically* deliverable by Hunt/Truss?


    https://twitter.com/BenChu_/status/158195889908289126

    The energy price cap rejigging will probably be worth half of that number leaving just £14bn in cuts and tax rises requires. Some kind of tax rises targeting rentseeking/ers would probably raise half of that number too leaving just £7bn in spending cuts, not exactly earth shattering.
    Plus the fact that, if the markets are convinced that we are now back to sane government, they'll probably accept a bit of drift in the timetable, so Hunt might not need to fill the full fiscal hole quite so quickly.
  • bigglesbiggles Posts: 5,933

    biggles said:

    If I was on the left of the Labour Party this would all worry me just as much as it worries the Moggs of this world. This is what the “grown ups” would have done to Corbyn, but for much smaller scale “sins”.

    We’re now in for at least 10-15 years of very middle of the road policies whoever wins the various elections. Welcome back to soft consensus land.

    10-15 years of soft consensus land sounds delightful to me.
    It will for most of us on here, but eventually the bill comes due. Last time it was Brexit. This time, who knows?
  • Scott_xP said:

    The cabinet just met to tell Liz Truss that her economic plan has gone to live on a farm.

    https://twitter.com/BrianSpanner1/status/1581953973937848320

    Oh no, not the farmy farm rumours again…
    One of the highest points of pb.com was farmy farm.
    Huge in-joke, MM.

    Perhaps you could summarise for our newer posters. There are quite a few these days.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,596
    Telegraph Politics
    @TelePolitics
    ·
    9m
    Replying to
    @TelePolitics
    💬"Last night I was sent a single WhatsApp message from a prominent member of the 2019 intake of Tory MPs. The message said: Rishi PM. Hunt CX. Penny FS. And it’s a done deal'"
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,479
    MattW said:

    Morning all. Just.

    Getting tasty in the splinter group stakes. Again. I have no idea why I found out about this.

    🚨 Breaking 🚨

    Scottish Green Party Conference has just voted pass our motion to suspend ties with the Green Party of England and Wales over institutional transphobia.

    #sgpconf

    https://twitter.com/rainbowgreens/status/1581674500050952192

    Oh, the big girls' blouses....
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,841
    I am embarrassed.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,994

    ..


    Genuine lol.

    Seriously, barely seem her lately.
  • mwadamsmwadams Posts: 3,578



    Scott_xP said:

    Tory rebels vow to bury fracking as they urge Liz Truss to make policy U-turn.

    MPs are confident they have the numbers to push back PM's plans to lift moratorium on shale gas exploration

    The Whips’ office is understood to be nervous about the number of Conservative backbenchers planning to abstain or even vote with Labour on Wednesday in an opposition day debate on fracking

    Full story here 👇

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2022/10/16/tory-rebels-vow-bury-fracking-urge-liz-truss-make-policy-u-turn/

    Damien Green on R4 this morning said he was ok with fracking as long as there was robust and extensive local consultation. Which he said he thought would lead to a vanishingly small amount of fracking…..
    Fracking is long gone. It will just disappear into the ether of forgotten policies...
    It’s part of the (very) lazy thinking “The US does it, we should do it!” completely ignoring details like geology or population density..
    Fracking was the canary in the mine for the Truss project.

    I was ranting away about it on here for a week or so as soon as she got in.

    The way Truss / Rees-Mogg came in and overturned policy on Fracking WAS. A. DISGRACE. and foretold what was coming in the next few weeks with the mini-budget. As per, the usual morons on here were dismissive.
    Excuse me, TW, there are no morons on this Site. Entry qualifications are tough and strictly applied.

    This is not ConHome you know.
    We are just "temporarily misguided".
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,295

    Telegraph Politics
    @TelePolitics
    ·
    9m
    Replying to
    @TelePolitics
    💬"Last night I was sent a single WhatsApp message from a prominent member of the 2019 intake of Tory MPs. The message said: Rishi PM. Hunt CX. Penny FS. And it’s a done deal'"

    Wallace as FS with Mordaunt back at defence would be politically more stable.

    But even without that it would be a better government than this lot.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,263
    Nigelb said:

    eek said:

    Nigelb said:

    eek said:

    theProle said:

    Scott_xP said:

    BREAKING: Jeremy Hunt has taken a wrecking ball to Liz Truss's tax plans.

    *Says he will "reverse almost all the tax measures announced in the growth plan"
    *No longer cut dividend tax
    *Abandon IR35 changes
    *Won't cut basic rate of income tax, it remains at 20% indefinitely

    What a moron - the IR35 changes were one of the easy wins in the whole thing which almost certainly would have generated more growth than they cost.
    @MaxPB 's calculation shows that they may have cost way more than was estimated - I would argue that they don't because tax avoidance is now into the oh boy area...

    And remember it's not the tax side of IR35 that kills it for people, it's the lack of expenses which make working inside impossible...
    While there's a strong argument for doing something, actually thinking about what that might be, and the best way to formulate it, takes time. An emergency fiscal statement probably isn't the best occasion.

    Otherwise we just end up with another complicated mess in place for several years.

    (Note that those on this blog who actually know much about this - which doesn't include me - don't seem to have reached any consensus on the matter.)
    The issue is the post 2021 changes simply don't work for multiple reasons - which would take an hour or more to document...

    Reverting to the pre-2017 version isn't perfect but it would be way better than it was especially if it was made clear the employers have some say in the working relationship..

    What in reality we need is a whole new set of employment and tax employment laws that are relevant to the 21st rather than the 19th centuries. And that really would take time but the current system just isn't working (as demonstrated by a bank, shipping workers up here for 2 days next week because I'm not travelling down and they can't work out how to get me down there at their expense).
    I'm not sure we're disagreeing all that much... or at least I'm not really disagreeing with you.
    As I said, I'm pretty ignorant of the ins and outs on this, but it's obvious that reform is needed, and the precise nature of what that ought to be is disputed.
    Oh, I don't think we are arguing my point was partly what needs to be fixed and partly the fact it's been known about for 15+ years and yet the Government has ignored multiple reports they have commissioned on the subject.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,836
    mwadams said:



    Scott_xP said:

    Tory rebels vow to bury fracking as they urge Liz Truss to make policy U-turn.

    MPs are confident they have the numbers to push back PM's plans to lift moratorium on shale gas exploration

    The Whips’ office is understood to be nervous about the number of Conservative backbenchers planning to abstain or even vote with Labour on Wednesday in an opposition day debate on fracking

    Full story here 👇

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2022/10/16/tory-rebels-vow-bury-fracking-urge-liz-truss-make-policy-u-turn/

    Damien Green on R4 this morning said he was ok with fracking as long as there was robust and extensive local consultation. Which he said he thought would lead to a vanishingly small amount of fracking…..
    Fracking is long gone. It will just disappear into the ether of forgotten policies...
    It’s part of the (very) lazy thinking “The US does it, we should do it!” completely ignoring details like geology or population density..
    Fracking was the canary in the mine for the Truss project.

    I was ranting away about it on here for a week or so as soon as she got in.

    The way Truss / Rees-Mogg came in and overturned policy on Fracking WAS. A. DISGRACE. and foretold what was coming in the next few weeks with the mini-budget. As per, the usual morons on here were dismissive.
    Excuse me, TW, there are no morons on this Site. Entry qualifications are tough and strictly applied.

    This is not ConHome you know.
    We are just "temporarily misguided".
    Or Leon
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,743
    Mr. Punter, newer members?

    Wasn't the farmy farm from around 2007-8? That's a decade and a half ago.
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981



    Scott_xP said:

    Tory rebels vow to bury fracking as they urge Liz Truss to make policy U-turn.

    MPs are confident they have the numbers to push back PM's plans to lift moratorium on shale gas exploration

    The Whips’ office is understood to be nervous about the number of Conservative backbenchers planning to abstain or even vote with Labour on Wednesday in an opposition day debate on fracking

    Full story here 👇

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2022/10/16/tory-rebels-vow-bury-fracking-urge-liz-truss-make-policy-u-turn/

    Damien Green on R4 this morning said he was ok with fracking as long as there was robust and extensive local consultation. Which he said he thought would lead to a vanishingly small amount of fracking…..
    Fracking is long gone. It will just disappear into the ether of forgotten policies...
    It’s part of the (very) lazy thinking “The US does it, we should do it!” completely ignoring details like geology or population density..
    Fracking was the canary in the mine for the Truss project.

    I was ranting away about it on here for a week or so as soon as she got in.

    The way Truss / Rees-Mogg came in and overturned policy on Fracking WAS. A. DISGRACE. and foretold what was coming in the next few weeks with the mini-budget. As per, the usual morons on here were dismissive.
    These "they laughed then/are not laughing now" claims rarely stand up to scrutiny. Consensus was overwhelmingly that as per the learned @Richard_Tyndall it was just irrelevant bollocks and not going to happen.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677
    MattW said:

    Morning all. Just.

    Getting tasty in the splinter group stakes. Again. I have no idea why I found out about this.

    🚨 Breaking 🚨

    Scottish Green Party Conference has just voted pass our motion to suspend ties with the Green Party of England and Wales over institutional transphobia.

    #sgpconf

    https://twitter.com/rainbowgreens/status/1581674500050952192

    The other Watcher on the Wall has already done this. Nobody gave a fuck.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,263
    kle4 said:

    In the hands of the gods (or rather, markets) now. Next few hours determine if Truss is out this week or next year.

    How can she remain given that everything she announced between September 9th and October 13th has been reversed?
  • OllyTOllyT Posts: 5,006

    What will the membership say? They voted for a bonfire of the taxes; Jeremy now scoffs at their wretched little presumptions.

    The membership should be put back in their box, they are totally unaccountable and should have no role in choosing a PM. (LOTO is possibly different)

    If those that voted for Truss don't like it they can scuttle by to RefUk /UKIP from whence most of them came before they can inflict anymore damage on the country.
  • mwadamsmwadams Posts: 3,578

    Mr. Punter, newer members?

    Wasn't the farmy farm from around 2007-8? That's a decade and a half ago.

    It is definitely not allowed to be that long ago. I demand the calendar is recalibrated.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,632
    edited October 2022
    The Tory strategy from here is
    very clear: “It’s not our fault, it’s Truss’s, it’ll be tough but you can trust us to put it right.” They’ll be fully aided in creating this narrative by large parts of the media, so from the opposition parties’ perspective it’s vital to get out in front of it. This is a disaster created by the Conservative party, not one woman; and they’ll do it again given half a chance.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,811
    edited October 2022

    Prescient discussion on Ycombinator's Hacker News on AI and software development.

    https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33226515

    An unflattering synopsis is that when AI models were only 'replicating' artistic works, developers were generally all for it, or at least not too bothered. But now Microsoft has effectively scraped all their GitHub repositories to feed into their Copilot AI coding tool, they're less happy. It doesn't help that the system seems to be regurgitating whole blocks of code (that is under open source licences) even when told not to.

    The future is looking bleak for the low-end developer.

    This concern (and evidence for it) was raised well over a year ago when Copilot was initially released.
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 6,807

    Telegraph Politics
    @TelePolitics
    ·
    9m
    Replying to
    @TelePolitics
    💬"Last night I was sent a single WhatsApp message from a prominent member of the 2019 intake of Tory MPs. The message said: Rishi PM. Hunt CX. Penny FS. And it’s a done deal'"

    Still not convinced Rishi is going to be able to hold the party together as PM. Also Hunt has just indefinitely stalled the income tax cut he was gunning for in 2024…

    But hey, if the Tory Party can get behind him let’s go for it.
  • Is Harry Brook playing Livingstone out of the T20 starting XI?
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,802
    edited October 2022
    I suspect there IS a problem with the Treasury. It goes all the way back to Wilson if not further. I hope the recent shenanigans have not permanently damaged the ability to challenge.

    I also think we have to give Andrew Bailey some credit. His reputation isn't exactly stellar and he was criticised for what he said about the pension funds having 72 hours to sort things out. But I respect him for that. It's not for the bank to be offering permanent liquidity to save the government from itself. It shows our institutions are capable of holding power to account.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,479
    eek said:

    kle4 said:

    In the hands of the gods (or rather, markets) now. Next few hours determine if Truss is out this week or next year.

    How can she remain given that everything she announced between September 9th and October 13th has been reversed?
    More than that, everything she pledged to members.

    The bought a pig in a poke. But no refund - they fell foul of the Stupidity Clause.

    ("If you are dumb enough to vote for her....")
  • mwadamsmwadams Posts: 3,578

    The Tory strategy from here is
    very clear: “It’s not our fault, it’s Truss’s, it’ll be tough but you can trust us to put it right.” They’ll be fully aided in creating this narrative by large parts of the media, so from the opposition parties’ perspective it’s vital to get out in front of it. This is a disaster created by the Conservative party, not one woman; and they’ll do it again given half a chance.

    I think it is clear that this is the Labour strategy. It's all "The Tories" not "Truss".
  • SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,772
    Will Truss turn up to be sitting next to the PM when he speaks this afternoon?
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,854
    Als Truss er donderdag nog is ben ik een Nederlander
  • SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,772
    eek said:

    Telegraph Politics
    @TelePolitics
    ·
    9m
    Replying to
    @TelePolitics
    💬"Last night I was sent a single WhatsApp message from a prominent member of the 2019 intake of Tory MPs. The message said: Rishi PM. Hunt CX. Penny FS. And it’s a done deal'"

    Still not convinced Rishi is going to be able to hold the party together as PM. Also Hunt has just indefinitely stalled the income tax cut he was gunning for in 2024…

    But hey, if the Tory Party can get behind him let’s go for it.
    Who would Rishi lose within the party that actually matters - losing the nutters back to whatever party Farage forms is no great loss.
    If the ERG and co don't accept reality, then the Tory party needs to split.
  • mwadamsmwadams Posts: 3,578

    Prescient discussion on Ycombinator's Hacker News on AI and software development.

    https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33226515

    An unflattering synopsis is that when AI models were only 'replicating' artistic works, developers were generally all for it, or at least not too bothered. But now Microsoft has effectively scraped all their GitHub repositories to feed into their Copilot AI coding tool, they're less happy. It doesn't help that the system seems to be regurgitating whole blocks of code (that is under open source licences) even when told not to.

    The future is looking bleak for the low-end developer.

    This concern (and evidence for it) was raised well over a year ago when Copilot was initially released.
    Yes; it's good to see it revisited now so it can be contextualised with DallE etc.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,841
    Nad:

    "The choices are simple: back Liz, if not bring back Boris or face a GE within weeks."
  • ihuntihunt Posts: 146
    OllyT said:

    What will the membership say? They voted for a bonfire of the taxes; Jeremy now scoffs at their wretched little presumptions.

    The membership should be put back in their box, they are totally unaccountable and should have no role in choosing a PM. (LOTO is possibly different)

    If those that voted for Truss don't like it they can scuttle by to RefUk /UKIP from whence most of them came before they can inflict anymore damage on the country.
    Hunts a class act. Let him now run the govt and have Truss as a figurehead whos wheeled out occasionally
  • DriverDriver Posts: 4,947

    biggles said:

    If I was on the left of the Labour Party this would all worry me just as much as it worries the Moggs of this world. This is what the “grown ups” would have done to Corbyn, but for much smaller scale “sins”.

    We’re now in for at least 10-15 years of very middle of the road policies whoever wins the various elections. Welcome back to soft consensus land.

    10-15 years of soft consensus land sounds delightful to me.
    It's very optimistic, if it's the same consensus that led to the problems in the first place.
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 8,677

    The Tory strategy from here is
    very clear: it’s not our fault, it’s Truss’s, it’ll be tough but you can trust us to put it right. They’ll be fully aided in creating this narrative by large parts of the media, so from thevopposition parties’ perspective it’s vital to get out in front of it. This is a disaster created by the Conservative party, not one woman; and they’ll do it again given half a chance.

    True, but they'll be helped by the fact that Labour is in no position to argue that a party which has recently made a catastrophic choice of leader, but now claims to be reformed, can't be trusted.
    Neither are the LDs, to be fair :wink:
  • bigglesbiggles Posts: 5,933

    MaxPB said:

    Meanwhile, in "not out of the woods yet" news...

    Initial reaction to Jeremy Hunt moves this morning - some quick calculations.
    Briefing suggests OBR was projecting medium term fiscal hole of £70bn.
    HMT estimates all tax reversal now raise £32bn...

    ...so still leaves £38bn hole to get debt falling as share of GDP in three years.
    Assume that favourable market reaction to U-turns lowers Gilt yields and interest rates by 1% - takes around £10bn off fiscal hole...

    ...still implies £28bn fiscal hole & £28bn of spending cuts.
    So the question for markets: are those cuts *politically* deliverable by Hunt/Truss?


    https://twitter.com/BenChu_/status/158195889908289126

    The energy price cap rejigging will probably be worth half of that number leaving just £14bn in cuts and tax rises requires. Some kind of tax rises targeting rentseeking/ers would probably raise half of that number too leaving just £7bn in spending cuts, not exactly earth shattering.
    Plus the fact that, if the markets are convinced that we are now back to sane government, they'll probably accept a bit of drift in the timetable, so Hunt might not need to fill the full fiscal hole quite so quickly.
    Or at all. £7Bn is a rounding error when split across all Gvt spending.

  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,691
    The problem for the Tories is that while this is a big step forwards, they won't win back Con -> Lab voters until Truss is gone completely. I certainly won't be voting Tory if she's still there, even if she's got no power.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,811
    edited October 2022
    mwadams said:

    Prescient discussion on Ycombinator's Hacker News on AI and software development.

    https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33226515

    An unflattering synopsis is that when AI models were only 'replicating' artistic works, developers were generally all for it, or at least not too bothered. But now Microsoft has effectively scraped all their GitHub repositories to feed into their Copilot AI coding tool, they're less happy. It doesn't help that the system seems to be regurgitating whole blocks of code (that is under open source licences) even when told not to.

    The future is looking bleak for the low-end developer.

    This concern (and evidence for it) was raised well over a year ago when Copilot was initially released.
    Yes; it's good to see it revisited now so it can be contextualised with DallE etc.
    I think the things that grates people is the Copilot is a paid product, as people have "given away" loads of code on Stack Overflow for free over many years. DallE did as well (and that is being also incorporated into a Microsoft product), but then Stable Diffusion came along that is Open Source.
  • Full constituency-by-constituency MRP projections here:

    https://twitter.com/antoniabance/status/1581964401116348418
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 6,807

    Will Truss turn up to be sitting next to the PM when he speaks this afternoon?

    Depends if the Chanc…. sorry, PM, lets her out or not. Might she not have some nice duplo blocks to play with instead?
  • DriverDriver Posts: 4,947

    Telegraph Politics
    @TelePolitics
    ·
    9m
    Replying to
    @TelePolitics
    💬"Last night I was sent a single WhatsApp message from a prominent member of the 2019 intake of Tory MPs. The message said: Rishi PM. Hunt CX. Penny FS. And it’s a done deal'"

    If we're going to have Sunak and Hunt we might as well have Sir Keir and Reeves.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,905

    The Tory strategy from here is
    very clear: “It’s not our fault, it’s Truss’s, it’ll be tough but you can trust us to put it right.” They’ll be fully aided in creating this narrative by large parts of the media, so from the opposition parties’ perspective it’s vital to get out in front of it. This is a disaster created by the Conservative party, not one woman; and they’ll do it again given half a chance.

    This seems to be the Labour line.

    https://twitter.com/RhonddaBryant/status/1581956165583269889
    Truss is now an empty husk. Her party encouraged her economically illiterate irresponsibility. Only weeks ago Hunt wanted to go even further than her on tax cuts. Neither of them have a mandate from the British people. #GeneralElectionNow,/i>
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,394
    Nigelb said:

    Liz Truss = Henry VI circa 1470-71
    Jeremy Hunt = The Earl of Warwick

    Pretty grim outlook for the rest of the country, then.
    Have we a candidate for Henry Tudor then? Can't think of a candidate in any of the three parties with some Welsh origin, unless it's step forward Stephen Kinnock!
  • ihuntihunt Posts: 146
    kle4 said:

    ..


    Genuine lol.

    Seriously, barely seem her lately.
    Honestly think this is the only way forward for thr tories. Let Hunt run the govt and hide Truss away
  • The Tory strategy from here is
    very clear: “It’s not our fault, it’s Truss’s, it’ll be tough but you can trust us to put it right.” They’ll be fully aided in creating this narrative by large parts of the media, so from the opposition parties’ perspective it’s vital to get out in front of it. This is a disaster created by the Conservative party, not one woman; and they’ll do it again given half a chance.

    Not the whole Conservative Party but a sect within it. Just as Corbyn was a dangerous sect within the Labour Party. As a non-partisan Tory, I'd be happy to vote for a sane Labour party (i.e. Starmer) or a sane Tory party (i.e. Rishi / Hunt).

    Our democracy works best when we have two well run parties and voters who vote according to performance. Truss needs to get out and Rishi/Hunt need two years to show what they can do, if they don't Starmer can pick it up.
This discussion has been closed.