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A CON majority drops to a 17% betting chance – politicalbetting.com

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  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,568

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Voters now wanting Boris back already just a few weeks after he left No 10.

    Do you think the Conservative parliamentary party will be glad they removed Boris Johnson from his position as party leader and Prime Minister, or regret having removed him?


    Regret: 44% (+19 from 21 Jul)
    Glad: 24% (-33)

    65% of Tory voters say they will regret removing Boris

    https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1577688378711179266?s=20&t=4uUwrWFHDrZGaw_bGo5JoQ

    The question is about the party regretting it - not the voters .
    Nonetheless the huge 26% swing to regret Boris going since July suggests that is the public mood too. On a forced choice between Boris back or keeping Truss, most voters now want Boris back
    Thank heavens those aren’t actually the only two choices! In a non-forced choice, the voters overwhelmingly want Labour in office instead.
    ”The voters”? “Overwhelmingly”?

    53% of Welsh voters
    53% of English voters
    29% of Scottish voters
    No Irish voters

    Arrogance is not entirely confined to the Conservative Party.

    (numbers: latest Survation)
    I didn’t claim that every possible subset of voters wanted it, so I’m not certain why you’re making a complaint of this nature.
    Glad to hear that we belong to a “possible subset” (sic).
    We all belong to many possible subsets.
    Not me. I'm with the majority on everything....
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 6,813
    Re Boris - appreciate this is not the polled question, but I can totally believe people prefer Boris to Truss. I mean, Truss has been an unmitigated disaster. It doesn’t mean people love Boris.

    The Tories had a chance to change the narrative and move on from Boris scandals this summer. They backed the wrong horse. It doesn’t mean people want them to bring Boris back.
  • HYUFD said:

    Was busy earlier when Truss' speech was on. A few good bits on her background catching up on iplayer but my goodness the delivery is awful and wooden.

    They make even IDS or May speeches seem like passionate oratory by comparison

    The problem you have is the toxic behaviour of your hero Johnson has plunged the party into this existential crisis, to which you are part of the problem as you are one of many different factions pulling each other apart in a deathly embrace

    The party is heading to oblivion and to be honest it only has itself to blame and you are part of the problem

    I have no sympathy and await PM Starmer
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,648

    kinabalu said:

    I found Austria a bit like that too when I lived there. Quite oppressive.

    I can believe it. Have always found Austria a lovely place to visit but gives off the vibe that there is a lot of pressure to conform.
    Talking of Austria, they had a trilateral summit with Hungary and Serbia this week.

    https://twitter.com/ivanastradner/status/1577274116255932419
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,969

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Voters now wanting Boris back already just a few weeks after he left No 10.

    Do you think the Conservative parliamentary party will be glad they removed Boris Johnson from his position as party leader and Prime Minister, or regret having removed him?


    Regret: 44% (+19 from 21 Jul)
    Glad: 24% (-33)

    65% of Tory voters say they will regret removing Boris

    https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1577688378711179266?s=20&t=4uUwrWFHDrZGaw_bGo5JoQ

    The question is about the party regretting it - not the voters .
    Nonetheless the huge 26% swing to regret Boris going since July suggests that is the public mood too. On a forced choice between Boris back or keeping Truss, most voters now want Boris back
    Thank heavens those aren’t actually the only two choices! In a non-forced choice, the voters overwhelmingly want Labour in office instead.
    ”The voters”? “Overwhelmingly”?

    53% of Welsh voters
    53% of English voters
    29% of Scottish voters
    No Irish voters

    Arrogance is not entirely confined to the Conservative Party.

    (numbers: latest Survation)
    Fantastic news the majority of Scottish voters now want to keep the Conservatives in office and Labour out of power, I always knew the Scots would come round eventually!
    You’re doing your classic arithmetic fail.

    Scottish Tories: 11%
    The only choice at Westminster is between a UK Tory government or a UK Labour government, so if they don't want a Labour led government then Scottish nationalists clearly want a Tory government by default instead
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,662
    DougSeal said:

    tlg86 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    EXCLUSIVE: King Charles III is expected to be crowned on Saturday, June 3 next year in a ceremony at Westminster Abbey in London, UK officials say https://trib.al/scMyUPW https://twitter.com/BloombergUK/status/1577687117475504129/photo/1

    That's Cup Final and Derby Day...
    Is the FA Cup Final still operating on the Julian Calendar? It seems to be getting later every year.

    I am sure it was the first Satuday in May for many years and it used to be in April before the 1950s.
    It’s later than usual this year because of the mid-season World Cup
    As a SWFC fan it hasn't mattered what date its on since 1993
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,969

    HYUFD said:

    Was busy earlier when Truss' speech was on. A few good bits on her background catching up on iplayer but my goodness the delivery is awful and wooden.

    They make even IDS or May speeches seem like passionate oratory by comparison

    The problem you have is the toxic behaviour of your hero Johnson has plunged the party into this existential crisis, to which you are part of the problem as you are one of many different factions pulling each other apart in a deathly embrace

    The party is heading to oblivion and to be honest it only has itself to blame and you are part of the problem

    I have no sympathy and await PM Starmer
    Bye then, I always said you would go back to Labour as you did under Blair, no surprise there
  • EPGEPG Posts: 6,652
    HYUFD said:

    Voters now wanting Boris back already just a few weeks after he left No 10.

    Do you think the Conservative parliamentary party will be glad they removed Boris Johnson from his position as party leader and Prime Minister, or regret having removed him?


    Regret: 44% (+19 from 21 Jul)
    Glad: 24% (-33)

    65% of Tory voters say they will regret removing Boris

    https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1577688378711179266?s=20&t=4uUwrWFHDrZGaw_bGo5JoQ

    That's not what those numbers mean.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,840
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Voters now wanting Boris back already just a few weeks after he left No 10.

    Do you think the Conservative parliamentary party will be glad they removed Boris Johnson from his position as party leader and Prime Minister, or regret having removed him?


    Regret: 44% (+19 from 21 Jul)
    Glad: 24% (-33)

    65% of Tory voters say they will regret removing Boris

    https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1577688378711179266?s=20&t=4uUwrWFHDrZGaw_bGo5JoQ

    The question is about the party regretting it - not the voters .
    Nonetheless the huge 26% swing to regret Boris going since July suggests that is the public mood too. On a forced choice between Boris back or keeping Truss, most voters now want Boris back
    Thank heavens those aren’t actually the only two choices! In a non-forced choice, the voters overwhelmingly want Labour in office instead.
    ”The voters”? “Overwhelmingly”?

    53% of Welsh voters
    53% of English voters
    29% of Scottish voters
    No Irish voters

    Arrogance is not entirely confined to the Conservative Party.

    (numbers: latest Survation)
    Fantastic news the majority of Scottish voters now want to keep the Conservatives in office and Labour out of power, I always knew the Scots would come round eventually!
    You’re doing your classic arithmetic fail.

    Scottish Tories: 11%
    The only choice at Westminster is between a UK Tory government or a UK Labour government, so if they don't want a Labour led government then Scottish nationalists clearly want a Tory government by default instead
    Not true, as any fule kno, and as 2010-2015 showed, for instance.
  • Scott_xP said:

    I went to Tory conference at Birmingham. The Conservative Party has been smashed. Truss is finished and is on her way out. My new piece for Middle East Eye:

    https://www.middleeasteye.net/opinion/uk-liz-truss-finished-so-are-tories

    Oborne there managing to provoke an ever rarer stirring in my sadly depleted middle-ages loins with his fruity talk of a complete Conservative collapse.
    Oborne once predicted that Ming Campbell's leadership of the Lib Dems would prove 'deadly' for the Tories.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,661
    edited October 2022
    kinabalu said:

    TimS said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    TOPPING said:

    eek said:

    TOPPING said:

    eek said:

    eek said:

    Another flaw in Liz Truss's growth plans


    How's it a flaw? Yes she's said that NIMBYs are a problem, and she's right to do so. And she's promised proposals (and given outlines) on fixing that problem, which would be great if it goes through.

    The bigger problem is that the backbench rebels will probably defeat her reforms, as they did when Boris tried to get sensible zoning reforms through, in which case the Tories deserve to lose the next election.
    The problem the Tory party has is build or trigger the building sufficient houses where they are needed and that seat is probably a "Home County Lib Dem*" win come the next election

    * other Lib Dem parties with different policies are available where nimby votes aren't important...
    They're in office, they're responsible.

    If they succeed in getting the laws right so homes are built, then that may lead to a Lib Dem win.

    If they fail to get the laws right so homes aren't built, then they deserve to lose the seat to the Lib Dems anyway.

    If you're not going to use your limited time in office to do something for the good of the country, only to try to extend your limited time in office, then you don't deserve any time in the first place.
    There is very little legislation or regulation against a vast amount of home building. The presumption just about anywhere for planning permission is that it will be granted.

    Supply is not the problem, affordability (or conversely the IRR of the developers) is the problem.

    You are tilting at windmills demanding that restrictions be removed when there are precious few hurdles to building more homes today.

    Edit: first google - https://www.gov.uk/government/news/home-building-stats-show-continued-increase-in-starts-and-completions-despite-pandemic
    I am afraid trying to point out that obvious truth to Bart is simply banging your head against a wall. I know, I have had this fight many times before. His perception of the scope and effect of planning laws is very far removed from reality.
    The scope and effect of planning laws, as we've discussed before, is to put the power for developing homes into the hands of "developers" that can navigate those laws and can have the scale to do the burdens put upon them for an entire estate.

    Issues like schools, services etc should be completely divorced from house building, no individual home is responsible for needing a school or any other service.
    So who would pay for those services - if not the companies profiteering from the development???
    The Council from Council Tax etc

    More houses means more Council Tax means more funding for schools.

    If an elderly couple die and their house is sold and is bought by someone with children then the demand for schools may change, but you don't expect them to build a new school for that home do you?

    If a young couple buy a home, then live in it for fifty years, they may then need social care rather than schooling.

    Demands change. The Council should handle that from its taxes for the services it provides.
    The council is voted in by the residents so that they can make these decisions. It is democracy at work to disallow someone from building a multi-storey block of flats in a village field if the villagers don't want it to be built there and would have to pay, via their Council tax, if it was built.
    And if those voters determined they don't want any black people in their village? Should that be voted for too?

    If someone wants to build a block of flats on their own land then that is their own land, not the villagers land.
    I thought you had an almost mystical respect for voting? Eg whenever I've suggested - as is my wont - that some things should be enshrined above and beyond the hurly burly of electoral politics you have always bridled.
    I do.

    If people want to create a law that allows NIMBYism, they should be allowed to do so.
    If people want to create a law that allows racism, they should be allowed to do so.

    However I retain the right to vehemently oppose both. I can and do have my own opinions on what the law should be, while respecting others right to disagree with me.

    In order to end racism or NIMBYism or sexism or any other destructive -ism we need to win the argument, not just have the law match our desires.
    Well to take your example, I don't think a village should be able to ban black people from living there. Not even if it's a landslide vote by the residents in favour. We will have to agree to disagree on this matter. As on one or two others.
    I don't think they should be able to either, but what I think may not win elections.

    Don't get me wrong, I would be happy to have a national law preventing residents from blocking black people/developments etc in their area. If a black family wants to build a home on their own land, they absolutely should be able to, and no residents of the village should get a say to deny them that right.
    We do have such a national law, I believe. Where we differ is you think the government should be able to scrap it if it has the requisite votes in the Commons - opening the way for these KKK villages to spring up all over the Black Forest (which I guess would then have to change its name) - whereas I think the government should not be able to do that, elected or not.
    You must think Switzerland is the most dystopian state in Europe.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/newsbeat-38595807

    In Switzerland, locals can vote on whether someone can become a citizen and people of Gipf-Oberfric have had their say.

    Nancy, who was born in the Netherlands, has campaigned for a long time against traditional Swiss cowbells, which animals wear to scare away predators and help farmers locate their livestock.

    Tanja Suter, president of the local branch of the Swiss People's Party, explained the rejection, saying that Nancy has a "big mouth" and is annoyed by her campaigns.

    "There are also Swiss who fight for the animal cause, but to be entitled to the passport, you have to show goodwill," Tanja tells local press.

    "We do not want to give her this gift if she bores us and does not respect our traditions."
    Not sure about "most dystopian state in Europe" but not keen, no.
    There’s a lot of curtain twitching action there. I had a client who was new to Switzerland ticked off by the town hall for mowing the lawn on a Sunday after being grassed up (geddit?) by a neighbour.
    I found Austria a bit like that too when I lived there. Quite oppressive.
    My brother got his lawnmower out one Sunday in Germany, and two police cars pulled up to stop him. He didn't do it again.

    I don't think it daft to have a rule for peace and quiet on a Sunday.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Has this been posted

    King Charles III coronation to be on June 3rd next year

    And I notice Johnson's cheerleader (@HYUFD) is boasting the conservatives want Boris back

    The only problem with that is the voters don’t, but then when has the conservative party cared about voters

    Clearly you skimmed past the latest yougov poll today I just offered

    'Do you think the Conservative parliamentary party will be glad they removed Boris Johnson from his position as party leader and Prime Minister, or regret having removed him?


    Regret: 44% (+19 from 21 Jul)
    Glad: 24% (-33)

    65% of Tory voters say they will regret removing Boris

    https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1577688378711179266?s=20&t=4uUwrWFHDrZGaw_bGo5JoQ'
    Considering conservative voters are a dying breed 65% of them is irrelevant
    And the fact voters overall by a 20% margin now think Tory MPs will regret Boris going?
    All a bit second guessish, isn't it? Why not ask whether it was a good idea, not whether you think x thinks it was a good idea?

    This strikes me as like regretting the loss of your favourite babysitter because, OK, he has been jailed for serial violent paedophilia, but his rates were very reasonable and the kids really liked him.
  • PJHPJH Posts: 645
    Leon said:

    PJH said:

    Leon said:

    "Thanks for waiting, your call is important to us"

    NO IT FUCKING ISN'T, YOU HAVEN'T ANSWERED FOR TWO HOURS

    Seriously. This is it. Like many on here I'm a higher rate taxpayer yet I've never really bothered to avoid tax, let alone evade it, I figure: I'm affluent, taxes are high buy fair, do my bit, it's easier and better

    But if the UK state cannot do the basics like process a few documents in under a year, thus actually LOSING me money, to higher inflation and FOREIGN tax jurisdictions, then fuck the British state. No more of my money will it get

    This is deliberate policy when confronted with the need to make savings, when all the obvious savings have already been made. This adds cost to the HMRC with no benefit to them, so an obvious target. The alternative is to fund the service properly, which the current government has no desire to do.
    To be fair, I did just get through to them after nearly 2 hours

    And the lady, after much faffing, admitted

    "Something has gone wrong"

    Grr.....
    Your patience was rewarded. A tax on time instead of money! At least you didn't just get disconnected, as I often find with private sector companies who have outsourced call centres.

    I have no direct experience of HMRC but if they are like other government departments then their IT systems will also be increasingly behind the curve. I would hope not given the importance of revenue collection but you never know. "Something has gone wrong" is not unusual even in well-provisioned IT systems!
  • Scott_xP said:

    I went to Tory conference at Birmingham. The Conservative Party has been smashed. Truss is finished and is on her way out. My new piece for Middle East Eye:

    https://www.middleeasteye.net/opinion/uk-liz-truss-finished-so-are-tories

    Oborne there managing to provoke an ever rarer stirring in my sadly depleted middle-ages loins with his fruity talk of a complete Conservative collapse.
    Oborne once predicted that Ming Campbell's leadership of the Lib Dems would prove 'deadly' for the Tories.
    Gee, thanks. Flaccidity has returned. Got a cock like a burst balloon.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298

    Scott_xP said:

    I went to Tory conference at Birmingham. The Conservative Party has been smashed. Truss is finished and is on her way out. My new piece for Middle East Eye:

    https://www.middleeasteye.net/opinion/uk-liz-truss-finished-so-are-tories

    Oborne there managing to provoke an ever rarer stirring in my sadly depleted middle-ages loins with his fruity talk of a complete Conservative collapse.
    Oborne once predicted that Ming Campbell's leadership of the Lib Dems would prove 'deadly' for the Tories.
    He wasn’t wrong, though.
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 4,931
    Leon said:

    PJH said:

    Leon said:

    "Thanks for waiting, your call is important to us"

    NO IT FUCKING ISN'T, YOU HAVEN'T ANSWERED FOR TWO HOURS

    Seriously. This is it. Like many on here I'm a higher rate taxpayer yet I've never really bothered to avoid tax, let alone evade it, I figure: I'm affluent, taxes are high buy fair, do my bit, it's easier and better

    But if the UK state cannot do the basics like process a few documents in under a year, thus actually LOSING me money, to higher inflation and FOREIGN tax jurisdictions, then fuck the British state. No more of my money will it get

    This is deliberate policy when confronted with the need to make savings, when all the obvious savings have already been made. This adds cost to the HMRC with no benefit to them, so an obvious target. The alternative is to fund the service properly, which the current government has no desire to do.
    To be fair, I did just get through to them after nearly 2 hours

    And the lady, after much faffing, admitted

    "Something has gone wrong"

    Grr.....
    2 hours @ 7p per minute = £8.40. A nice little earner.
  • HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Was busy earlier when Truss' speech was on. A few good bits on her background catching up on iplayer but my goodness the delivery is awful and wooden.

    They make even IDS or May speeches seem like passionate oratory by comparison

    The problem you have is the toxic behaviour of your hero Johnson has plunged the party into this existential crisis, to which you are part of the problem as you are one of many different factions pulling each other apart in a deathly embrace

    The party is heading to oblivion and to be honest it only has itself to blame and you are part of the problem

    I have no sympathy and await PM Starmer
    Bye then, I always said you would go back to Labour as you did under Blair, no surprise there
    I do not need to even vote for labour, you and others in the party have ensured Starmer will be the next PM and you are going to be irrelevant politically for a very long time
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,339
    edited October 2022
    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    PJH said:

    Leon said:

    "Thanks for waiting, your call is important to us"

    NO IT FUCKING ISN'T, YOU HAVEN'T ANSWERED FOR TWO HOURS

    Seriously. This is it. Like many on here I'm a higher rate taxpayer yet I've never really bothered to avoid tax, let alone evade it, I figure: I'm affluent, taxes are high buy fair, do my bit, it's easier and better

    But if the UK state cannot do the basics like process a few documents in under a year, thus actually LOSING me money, to higher inflation and FOREIGN tax jurisdictions, then fuck the British state. No more of my money will it get

    This is deliberate policy when confronted with the need to make savings, when all the obvious savings have already been made. This adds cost to the HMRC with no benefit to them, so an obvious target. The alternative is to fund the service properly, which the current government has no desire to do.
    To be fair, I did just get through to them after nearly 2 hours

    And the lady, after much faffing, admitted

    "Something has gone wrong"

    Grr....
    Do you expect your own hotline or something?
    Given that I am trying to persuade them to sign off on documents that mean I will pay tax on foreign income here in the UK, rather than, say, in Germany, France, Portugal, or Brazil, you'd think I'd get pretty quick service, not an 8 month delay on the documents, and several hours-long phone calls going nowhere

    I am actually STRIVING to make sure His Majesty's Revenue gets more money! Pillocks
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,840

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Was busy earlier when Truss' speech was on. A few good bits on her background catching up on iplayer but my goodness the delivery is awful and wooden.

    They make even IDS or May speeches seem like passionate oratory by comparison

    The problem you have is the toxic behaviour of your hero Johnson has plunged the party into this existential crisis, to which you are part of the problem as you are one of many different factions pulling each other apart in a deathly embrace

    The party is heading to oblivion and to be honest it only has itself to blame and you are part of the problem

    I have no sympathy and await PM Starmer
    Bye then, I always said you would go back to Labour as you did under Blair, no surprise there
    I do not need to even vote for labour, you and others in the party have ensured Starmer will be the next PM and you are going to be irrelevant politically for a very long time
    Come now, that's unfair to poor HYUFD. There's always the Parish Council, and maybe even the Borough if the Residents haven't rebelled over Ms Truss selling Epping Forest to an overseas consortium to build investment flats.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,661
    PJH said:

    Leon said:

    PJH said:

    Leon said:

    "Thanks for waiting, your call is important to us"

    NO IT FUCKING ISN'T, YOU HAVEN'T ANSWERED FOR TWO HOURS

    Seriously. This is it. Like many on here I'm a higher rate taxpayer yet I've never really bothered to avoid tax, let alone evade it, I figure: I'm affluent, taxes are high buy fair, do my bit, it's easier and better

    But if the UK state cannot do the basics like process a few documents in under a year, thus actually LOSING me money, to higher inflation and FOREIGN tax jurisdictions, then fuck the British state. No more of my money will it get

    This is deliberate policy when confronted with the need to make savings, when all the obvious savings have already been made. This adds cost to the HMRC with no benefit to them, so an obvious target. The alternative is to fund the service properly, which the current government has no desire to do.
    To be fair, I did just get through to them after nearly 2 hours

    And the lady, after much faffing, admitted

    "Something has gone wrong"

    Grr.....
    Your patience was rewarded. A tax on time instead of money! At least you didn't just get disconnected, as I often find with private sector companies who have outsourced call centres.

    I have no direct experience of HMRC but if they are like other government departments then their IT systems will also be increasingly behind the curve. I would hope not given the importance of revenue collection but you never know. "Something has gone wrong" is not unusual even in well-provisioned IT systems!
    It is typical of the short-sightedness of this government's "efficiency savings" to close so many IR offices. Ours used to be very helpful, but closed a few years back. I reckon that they lose more revenue than they save by doing so.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,648
    JK Rowling is increasingly becoming a political figure.

    @jk_rowling
    I note the genderists are now arguing that it doesn't matter that a paedophilia apologist was a trustee of a trans children's charity, because he was 'only one'.

    You know, I thought things were pretty bad when you were arguing to put convicted rapists in women's jails, when you shrugged off masked men roughing up lesbian protestors and tried to shout down detransitioners talking about what was done to them by ideologically-captured doctors.

    Women, gay people and vulnerable kids have suffered real harm and you? You cheered it all on.

    You still prefer wilful blindness and four word mantras to considering you might have got this badly wrong. You became part of an authoritarian, misogynist, homophobic movement and you didn't even notice. Enjoy the sense of your own righteousness while you can. It won't last.


    https://twitter.com/jk_rowling/status/1577678023062585347
  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 8,163
    Scott_xP said:

    I went to Tory conference at Birmingham. The Conservative Party has been smashed. Truss is finished and is on her way out. My new piece for Middle East Eye:

    https://www.middleeasteye.net/opinion/uk-liz-truss-finished-so-are-tories

    "Many Tory members are retired, and understandably terrified for their future because Kwarteng’s unforgivable financial buffoonery threatens pension funds with collapse. "

    And they put her in there against all the advice of anyone with more than 2 functional braincells. This was a train-wreck that was totally avoidable and visible from a long, long way off.

    The Tory Corbyn! :D:D
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,339
    Foxy said:

    kinabalu said:

    TimS said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    TOPPING said:

    eek said:

    TOPPING said:

    eek said:

    eek said:

    Another flaw in Liz Truss's growth plans


    How's it a flaw? Yes she's said that NIMBYs are a problem, and she's right to do so. And she's promised proposals (and given outlines) on fixing that problem, which would be great if it goes through.

    The bigger problem is that the backbench rebels will probably defeat her reforms, as they did when Boris tried to get sensible zoning reforms through, in which case the Tories deserve to lose the next election.
    The problem the Tory party has is build or trigger the building sufficient houses where they are needed and that seat is probably a "Home County Lib Dem*" win come the next election

    * other Lib Dem parties with different policies are available where nimby votes aren't important...
    They're in office, they're responsible.

    If they succeed in getting the laws right so homes are built, then that may lead to a Lib Dem win.

    If they fail to get the laws right so homes aren't built, then they deserve to lose the seat to the Lib Dems anyway.

    If you're not going to use your limited time in office to do something for the good of the country, only to try to extend your limited time in office, then you don't deserve any time in the first place.
    There is very little legislation or regulation against a vast amount of home building. The presumption just about anywhere for planning permission is that it will be granted.

    Supply is not the problem, affordability (or conversely the IRR of the developers) is the problem.

    You are tilting at windmills demanding that restrictions be removed when there are precious few hurdles to building more homes today.

    Edit: first google - https://www.gov.uk/government/news/home-building-stats-show-continued-increase-in-starts-and-completions-despite-pandemic
    I am afraid trying to point out that obvious truth to Bart is simply banging your head against a wall. I know, I have had this fight many times before. His perception of the scope and effect of planning laws is very far removed from reality.
    The scope and effect of planning laws, as we've discussed before, is to put the power for developing homes into the hands of "developers" that can navigate those laws and can have the scale to do the burdens put upon them for an entire estate.

    Issues like schools, services etc should be completely divorced from house building, no individual home is responsible for needing a school or any other service.
    So who would pay for those services - if not the companies profiteering from the development???
    The Council from Council Tax etc

    More houses means more Council Tax means more funding for schools.

    If an elderly couple die and their house is sold and is bought by someone with children then the demand for schools may change, but you don't expect them to build a new school for that home do you?

    If a young couple buy a home, then live in it for fifty years, they may then need social care rather than schooling.

    Demands change. The Council should handle that from its taxes for the services it provides.
    The council is voted in by the residents so that they can make these decisions. It is democracy at work to disallow someone from building a multi-storey block of flats in a village field if the villagers don't want it to be built there and would have to pay, via their Council tax, if it was built.
    And if those voters determined they don't want any black people in their village? Should that be voted for too?

    If someone wants to build a block of flats on their own land then that is their own land, not the villagers land.
    I thought you had an almost mystical respect for voting? Eg whenever I've suggested - as is my wont - that some things should be enshrined above and beyond the hurly burly of electoral politics you have always bridled.
    I do.

    If people want to create a law that allows NIMBYism, they should be allowed to do so.
    If people want to create a law that allows racism, they should be allowed to do so.

    However I retain the right to vehemently oppose both. I can and do have my own opinions on what the law should be, while respecting others right to disagree with me.

    In order to end racism or NIMBYism or sexism or any other destructive -ism we need to win the argument, not just have the law match our desires.
    Well to take your example, I don't think a village should be able to ban black people from living there. Not even if it's a landslide vote by the residents in favour. We will have to agree to disagree on this matter. As on one or two others.
    I don't think they should be able to either, but what I think may not win elections.

    Don't get me wrong, I would be happy to have a national law preventing residents from blocking black people/developments etc in their area. If a black family wants to build a home on their own land, they absolutely should be able to, and no residents of the village should get a say to deny them that right.
    We do have such a national law, I believe. Where we differ is you think the government should be able to scrap it if it has the requisite votes in the Commons - opening the way for these KKK villages to spring up all over the Black Forest (which I guess would then have to change its name) - whereas I think the government should not be able to do that, elected or not.
    You must think Switzerland is the most dystopian state in Europe.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/newsbeat-38595807

    In Switzerland, locals can vote on whether someone can become a citizen and people of Gipf-Oberfric have had their say.

    Nancy, who was born in the Netherlands, has campaigned for a long time against traditional Swiss cowbells, which animals wear to scare away predators and help farmers locate their livestock.

    Tanja Suter, president of the local branch of the Swiss People's Party, explained the rejection, saying that Nancy has a "big mouth" and is annoyed by her campaigns.

    "There are also Swiss who fight for the animal cause, but to be entitled to the passport, you have to show goodwill," Tanja tells local press.

    "We do not want to give her this gift if she bores us and does not respect our traditions."
    Not sure about "most dystopian state in Europe" but not keen, no.
    There’s a lot of curtain twitching action there. I had a client who was new to Switzerland ticked off by the town hall for mowing the lawn on a Sunday after being grassed up (geddit?) by a neighbour.
    I found Austria a bit like that too when I lived there. Quite oppressive.
    My brother got his lawnmower out one Sunday in Germany, and two police cars pulled up to stop him. He didn't do it again.

    I don't think it daft to have a rule for peace and quiet on a Sunday.
    No government seems able to do anything about extremely noisy motorbikes. They are a nuisance in every country I have been recently - America to Spain, Georgia to Italy

    Seville was particularly bad. They race down the narrow cobbled roads of the old town at about 2am, and the noise is acutely unpleasant, because the stonework echoes and amplifies it
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,840

    JK Rowling is increasingly becoming a political figure.

    @jk_rowling
    I note the genderists are now arguing that it doesn't matter that a paedophilia apologist was a trustee of a trans children's charity, because he was 'only one'.

    You know, I thought things were pretty bad when you were arguing to put convicted rapists in women's jails, when you shrugged off masked men roughing up lesbian protestors and tried to shout down detransitioners talking about what was done to them by ideologically-captured doctors.

    Women, gay people and vulnerable kids have suffered real harm and you? You cheered it all on.

    You still prefer wilful blindness and four word mantras to considering you might have got this badly wrong. You became part of an authoritarian, misogynist, homophobic movement and you didn't even notice. Enjoy the sense of your own righteousness while you can. It won't last.


    https://twitter.com/jk_rowling/status/1577678023062585347

    Hmm. I don't recall Frank Richards and Enid Blyton becoming MPs. But Thomas Hughes did.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    LOL @ John Redwood on PM: local Conservative associations sometimes feel they shouldn't hog all the lovely housing development for their own area but should distribute the benefits of growth more widely.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,662

    Leon said:

    PJH said:

    Leon said:

    "Thanks for waiting, your call is important to us"

    NO IT FUCKING ISN'T, YOU HAVEN'T ANSWERED FOR TWO HOURS

    Seriously. This is it. Like many on here I'm a higher rate taxpayer yet I've never really bothered to avoid tax, let alone evade it, I figure: I'm affluent, taxes are high buy fair, do my bit, it's easier and better

    But if the UK state cannot do the basics like process a few documents in under a year, thus actually LOSING me money, to higher inflation and FOREIGN tax jurisdictions, then fuck the British state. No more of my money will it get

    This is deliberate policy when confronted with the need to make savings, when all the obvious savings have already been made. This adds cost to the HMRC with no benefit to them, so an obvious target. The alternative is to fund the service properly, which the current government has no desire to do.
    To be fair, I did just get through to them after nearly 2 hours

    And the lady, after much faffing, admitted

    "Something has gone wrong"

    Grr.....
    2 hours @ 7p per minute = £8.40. A nice little earner.
    Cant you deduct the £8,40 as a business expense?

    Alternatively Leon is it because you told them your real name was Thomas or Sean or something and now they are confused
  • Have been crazy busy with work all day. Did see a news clip of her speech on a TV screen in the background in one meeting and said "oh god why is she in front of a blue screen? That will get chromakeyed" to laughter from my colleague.

    Is that if for this year's "The Thick of It Live" or is there any more to come?
  • Scott_xP said:

    I went to Tory conference at Birmingham. The Conservative Party has been smashed. Truss is finished and is on her way out. My new piece for Middle East Eye:

    https://www.middleeasteye.net/opinion/uk-liz-truss-finished-so-are-tories

    "Many Tory members are retired, and understandably terrified for their future because Kwarteng’s unforgivable financial buffoonery threatens pension funds with collapse. "

    And they put her in there against all the advice of anyone with more than 2 functional braincells. This was a train-wreck that was totally avoidable and visible from a long, long way off.

    The Tory Corbyn! :D:D
    I am not sure how the retired are affected by their pension funds as they will already have their pensions

    Nothing that has happened has made any difference to my private pension nor the terms of it

    It will of course worry very many who are getting near to retirement
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,073
    A girls' school in Iran brought a member of the IRGC-run Basij paramilitary to speak to students. The girls welcomed the speaker by taking off their headscarves & chanting "get lost, Basiji".

    Teenage girls have been at the forefront of protests for days.

    https://twitter.com/KianSharifi/status/1577543177925435395
  • AlistairMAlistairM Posts: 2,005
    IshmaelZ said:

    LOL @ John Redwood on PM: local Conservative associations sometimes feel they shouldn't hog all the lovely housing development for their own area but should distribute the benefits of growth more widely.

    Well, can't say Wokingham hasn't taken its fair share. I grew up there and it is being obliterated by massive housing estates, particularly in the last 15 years. There is basically now a non stop housing belt between Reading and Ascot. Lots of countryside obliterated by poorly thought out developments.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298
    IshmaelZ said:

    LOL @ John Redwood on PM: local Conservative associations sometimes feel they shouldn't hog all the lovely housing development for their own area but should distribute the benefits of growth more widely.

    Utterly batshit.
    The people are Wokingham are idiots.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,662
    edited October 2022
    My tea is going to be late

    Spent 5 hrs trying to grow my Pukka cant seem to do it

    I called HMRC they didnt know either


    Although they were on for 2 hrs trying to help

  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298
    AlistairM said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    LOL @ John Redwood on PM: local Conservative associations sometimes feel they shouldn't hog all the lovely housing development for their own area but should distribute the benefits of growth more widely.

    Well, can't say Wokingham hasn't taken its fair share. I grew up there and it is being obliterated by massive housing estates, particularly in the last 15 years. There is basically now a non stop housing belt between Reading and Ascot. Lots of countryside obliterated by poorly thought out developments.
    Do they have a local plan?

  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    Scott_xP said:

    I went to Tory conference at Birmingham. The Conservative Party has been smashed. Truss is finished and is on her way out. My new piece for Middle East Eye:

    https://www.middleeasteye.net/opinion/uk-liz-truss-finished-so-are-tories

    "Many Tory members are retired, and understandably terrified for their future because Kwarteng’s unforgivable financial buffoonery threatens pension funds with collapse. "

    And they put her in there against all the advice of anyone with more than 2 functional braincells. This was a train-wreck that was totally avoidable and visible from a long, long way off.

    The Tory Corbyn! :D:D
    I am not sure how the retired are affected by their pension funds as they will already have their pensions

    Nothing that has happened has made any difference to my private pension nor the terms of it

    It will of course worry very many who are getting near to retirement
    They could be drawing down SIPPs rather than having bought annuities. Lots of people are what with the annuity rates on offer these days.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,459
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Was busy earlier when Truss' speech was on. A few good bits on her background catching up on iplayer but my goodness the delivery is awful and wooden.

    They make even IDS or May speeches seem like passionate oratory by comparison

    The problem you have is the toxic behaviour of your hero Johnson has plunged the party into this existential crisis, to which you are part of the problem as you are one of many different factions pulling each other apart in a deathly embrace

    The party is heading to oblivion and to be honest it only has itself to blame and you are part of the problem

    I have no sympathy and await PM Starmer
    Bye then, I always said you would go back to Labour as you did under Blair, no surprise there
    Is this supposed to be an insult?
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,840
    AlistairM said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    LOL @ John Redwood on PM: local Conservative associations sometimes feel they shouldn't hog all the lovely housing development for their own area but should distribute the benefits of growth more widely.

    Well, can't say Wokingham hasn't taken its fair share. I grew up there and it is being obliterated by massive housing estates, particularly in the last 15 years. There is basically now a non stop housing belt between Reading and Ascot. Lots of countryside obliterated by poorly thought out developments.
    I have a friend there. Gives the impression to me of being all houses, dual carriageways, and the odd school playing ground and flooded gravel pit. Not nice.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,063
    edited October 2022
    IshmaelZ said:

    Scott_xP said:

    I went to Tory conference at Birmingham. The Conservative Party has been smashed. Truss is finished and is on her way out. My new piece for Middle East Eye:

    https://www.middleeasteye.net/opinion/uk-liz-truss-finished-so-are-tories

    "Many Tory members are retired, and understandably terrified for their future because Kwarteng’s unforgivable financial buffoonery threatens pension funds with collapse. "

    And they put her in there against all the advice of anyone with more than 2 functional braincells. This was a train-wreck that was totally avoidable and visible from a long, long way off.

    The Tory Corbyn! :D:D
    I am not sure how the retired are affected by their pension funds as they will already have their pensions

    Nothing that has happened has made any difference to my private pension nor the terms of it

    It will of course worry very many who are getting near to retirement
    They could be drawing down SIPPs rather than having bought annuities. Lots of people are what with the annuity rates on offer these days.
    Is that common, as it is 13 years since I retired and annuities seemed to be the norm

    I am not obviously as upto date
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,914

    One suspects that the cigar chomping, obese Therese Coffey is going to become one of the key grotesques in the Tory gallery.

    Truss, Kwarteng, Braverman, Coffey, Rees-Mogg.

    They are quite repulsive looking or acting individuals.

    At least Cleverley is “only” stupid.

    You've missed quite a few! Even after Thatcher had removed the wets around '89 I can't remember an uglier more right wing selfish looking 'nasty' party than this incarnation. The zeitgeist is changing
  • Foxy said:

    kinabalu said:

    TimS said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    TOPPING said:

    eek said:

    TOPPING said:

    eek said:

    eek said:

    Another flaw in Liz Truss's growth plans


    How's it a flaw? Yes she's said that NIMBYs are a problem, and she's right to do so. And she's promised proposals (and given outlines) on fixing that problem, which would be great if it goes through.

    The bigger problem is that the backbench rebels will probably defeat her reforms, as they did when Boris tried to get sensible zoning reforms through, in which case the Tories deserve to lose the next election.
    The problem the Tory party has is build or trigger the building sufficient houses where they are needed and that seat is probably a "Home County Lib Dem*" win come the next election

    * other Lib Dem parties with different policies are available where nimby votes aren't important...
    They're in office, they're responsible.

    If they succeed in getting the laws right so homes are built, then that may lead to a Lib Dem win.

    If they fail to get the laws right so homes aren't built, then they deserve to lose the seat to the Lib Dems anyway.

    If you're not going to use your limited time in office to do something for the good of the country, only to try to extend your limited time in office, then you don't deserve any time in the first place.
    There is very little legislation or regulation against a vast amount of home building. The presumption just about anywhere for planning permission is that it will be granted.

    Supply is not the problem, affordability (or conversely the IRR of the developers) is the problem.

    You are tilting at windmills demanding that restrictions be removed when there are precious few hurdles to building more homes today.

    Edit: first google - https://www.gov.uk/government/news/home-building-stats-show-continued-increase-in-starts-and-completions-despite-pandemic
    I am afraid trying to point out that obvious truth to Bart is simply banging your head against a wall. I know, I have had this fight many times before. His perception of the scope and effect of planning laws is very far removed from reality.
    The scope and effect of planning laws, as we've discussed before, is to put the power for developing homes into the hands of "developers" that can navigate those laws and can have the scale to do the burdens put upon them for an entire estate.

    Issues like schools, services etc should be completely divorced from house building, no individual home is responsible for needing a school or any other service.
    So who would pay for those services - if not the companies profiteering from the development???
    The Council from Council Tax etc

    More houses means more Council Tax means more funding for schools.

    If an elderly couple die and their house is sold and is bought by someone with children then the demand for schools may change, but you don't expect them to build a new school for that home do you?

    If a young couple buy a home, then live in it for fifty years, they may then need social care rather than schooling.

    Demands change. The Council should handle that from its taxes for the services it provides.
    The council is voted in by the residents so that they can make these decisions. It is democracy at work to disallow someone from building a multi-storey block of flats in a village field if the villagers don't want it to be built there and would have to pay, via their Council tax, if it was built.
    And if those voters determined they don't want any black people in their village? Should that be voted for too?

    If someone wants to build a block of flats on their own land then that is their own land, not the villagers land.
    I thought you had an almost mystical respect for voting? Eg whenever I've suggested - as is my wont - that some things should be enshrined above and beyond the hurly burly of electoral politics you have always bridled.
    I do.

    If people want to create a law that allows NIMBYism, they should be allowed to do so.
    If people want to create a law that allows racism, they should be allowed to do so.

    However I retain the right to vehemently oppose both. I can and do have my own opinions on what the law should be, while respecting others right to disagree with me.

    In order to end racism or NIMBYism or sexism or any other destructive -ism we need to win the argument, not just have the law match our desires.
    Well to take your example, I don't think a village should be able to ban black people from living there. Not even if it's a landslide vote by the residents in favour. We will have to agree to disagree on this matter. As on one or two others.
    I don't think they should be able to either, but what I think may not win elections.

    Don't get me wrong, I would be happy to have a national law preventing residents from blocking black people/developments etc in their area. If a black family wants to build a home on their own land, they absolutely should be able to, and no residents of the village should get a say to deny them that right.
    We do have such a national law, I believe. Where we differ is you think the government should be able to scrap it if it has the requisite votes in the Commons - opening the way for these KKK villages to spring up all over the Black Forest (which I guess would then have to change its name) - whereas I think the government should not be able to do that, elected or not.
    You must think Switzerland is the most dystopian state in Europe.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/newsbeat-38595807

    In Switzerland, locals can vote on whether someone can become a citizen and people of Gipf-Oberfric have had their say.

    Nancy, who was born in the Netherlands, has campaigned for a long time against traditional Swiss cowbells, which animals wear to scare away predators and help farmers locate their livestock.

    Tanja Suter, president of the local branch of the Swiss People's Party, explained the rejection, saying that Nancy has a "big mouth" and is annoyed by her campaigns.

    "There are also Swiss who fight for the animal cause, but to be entitled to the passport, you have to show goodwill," Tanja tells local press.

    "We do not want to give her this gift if she bores us and does not respect our traditions."
    Not sure about "most dystopian state in Europe" but not keen, no.
    There’s a lot of curtain twitching action there. I had a client who was new to Switzerland ticked off by the town hall for mowing the lawn on a Sunday after being grassed up (geddit?) by a neighbour.
    I found Austria a bit like that too when I lived there. Quite oppressive.
    My brother got his lawnmower out one Sunday in Germany, and two police cars pulled up to stop him. He didn't do it again.

    I don't think it daft to have a rule for peace and quiet on a Sunday.
    If we implemented such a law here, lack of police enforcement would leave the grass-cutter uninterrupted, as long as he nicked the lawnmower from somewhere else rather than used his own.......
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541

    DougSeal said:

    tlg86 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    EXCLUSIVE: King Charles III is expected to be crowned on Saturday, June 3 next year in a ceremony at Westminster Abbey in London, UK officials say https://trib.al/scMyUPW https://twitter.com/BloombergUK/status/1577687117475504129/photo/1

    That's Cup Final and Derby Day...
    Is the FA Cup Final still operating on the Julian Calendar? It seems to be getting later every year.

    I am sure it was the first Satuday in May for many years and it used to be in April before the 1950s.
    It’s later than usual this year because of the mid-season World Cup
    As a SWFC fan it hasn't mattered what date its on since 1993
    As an Ipswich supporter my pain is even longer lasting. 1978.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298
    Russia’s latest rhetoric around Nordstream 2 yet more evidence that they are responsible.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,661

    Have been crazy busy with work all day. Did see a news clip of her speech on a TV screen in the background in one meeting and said "oh god why is she in front of a blue screen? That will get chromakeyed" to laughter from my colleague.

    Is that if for this year's "The Thick of It Live" or is there any more to come?

    Didn't take long:

    https://twitter.com/UKLabour/status/1577623252121395201?t=pxhY3e6CiLauiUEOsJa1yA&s=19

    Though this was rather good:

    https://twitter.com/LabourDesign/status/1577633905733156865?t=gO7UL9OBbfuLCZ63EZ8veQ&s=19

    And this

    https://twitter.com/dollisp/status/1577620808716935168?t=4di90G7IuLhTI3IDW7BrkA&s=19
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,969
    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Voters now wanting Boris back already just a few weeks after he left No 10.

    Do you think the Conservative parliamentary party will be glad they removed Boris Johnson from his position as party leader and Prime Minister, or regret having removed him?


    Regret: 44% (+19 from 21 Jul)
    Glad: 24% (-33)

    65% of Tory voters say they will regret removing Boris

    https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1577688378711179266?s=20&t=4uUwrWFHDrZGaw_bGo5JoQ

    The question is about the party regretting it - not the voters .
    Nonetheless the huge 26% swing to regret Boris going since July suggests that is the public mood too. On a forced choice between Boris back or keeping Truss, most voters now want Boris back
    Thank heavens those aren’t actually the only two choices! In a non-forced choice, the voters overwhelmingly want Labour in office instead.
    ”The voters”? “Overwhelmingly”?

    53% of Welsh voters
    53% of English voters
    29% of Scottish voters
    No Irish voters

    Arrogance is not entirely confined to the Conservative Party.

    (numbers: latest Survation)
    Fantastic news the majority of Scottish voters now want to keep the Conservatives in office and Labour out of power, I always knew the Scots would come round eventually!
    You’re doing your classic arithmetic fail.

    Scottish Tories: 11%
    The only choice at Westminster is between a UK Tory government or a UK Labour government, so if they don't want a Labour led government then Scottish nationalists clearly want a Tory government by default instead
    Not true, as any fule kno, and as 2010-2015 showed, for instance.
    The choice was still between a Tory led government or a Labour led government even in 2010. The Tories were largest party and the LDs went into coalition with then as the junior party
  • IshmaelZ said:

    Scott_xP said:

    I went to Tory conference at Birmingham. The Conservative Party has been smashed. Truss is finished and is on her way out. My new piece for Middle East Eye:

    https://www.middleeasteye.net/opinion/uk-liz-truss-finished-so-are-tories

    "Many Tory members are retired, and understandably terrified for their future because Kwarteng’s unforgivable financial buffoonery threatens pension funds with collapse. "

    And they put her in there against all the advice of anyone with more than 2 functional braincells. This was a train-wreck that was totally avoidable and visible from a long, long way off.

    The Tory Corbyn! :D:D
    I am not sure how the retired are affected by their pension funds as they will already have their pensions

    Nothing that has happened has made any difference to my private pension nor the terms of it

    It will of course worry very many who are getting near to retirement
    They could be drawing down SIPPs rather than having bought annuities. Lots of people are what with the annuity rates on offer these days.
    Is that common, as it is 13 years since I retired and annuities seemed to be the norm

    I am not obviously as upto date
    Annuity rates have been exceedingly low since the GFC and people can drawdown instead since 2015. Think most new retirees choose lump sum and drawdown ahead of annuities.
  • AlistairMAlistairM Posts: 2,005
    Carnyx said:

    AlistairM said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    LOL @ John Redwood on PM: local Conservative associations sometimes feel they shouldn't hog all the lovely housing development for their own area but should distribute the benefits of growth more widely.

    Well, can't say Wokingham hasn't taken its fair share. I grew up there and it is being obliterated by massive housing estates, particularly in the last 15 years. There is basically now a non stop housing belt between Reading and Ascot. Lots of countryside obliterated by poorly thought out developments.
    I have a friend there. Gives the impression to me of being all houses, dual carriageways, and the odd school playing ground and flooded gravel pit. Not nice.
    There have been a few commercial developments in the centre that are nice. However it is vastly outweighed by the awful rings of developments miles out from the centre. My parents moved there in the 70s and are still there. I moved away 10 years ago the over development was a major factor.
  • HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Was busy earlier when Truss' speech was on. A few good bits on her background catching up on iplayer but my goodness the delivery is awful and wooden.

    They make even IDS or May speeches seem like passionate oratory by comparison

    The problem you have is the toxic behaviour of your hero Johnson has plunged the party into this existential crisis, to which you are part of the problem as you are one of many different factions pulling each other apart in a deathly embrace

    The party is heading to oblivion and to be honest it only has itself to blame and you are part of the problem

    I have no sympathy and await PM Starmer
    Bye then, I always said you would go back to Labour as you did under Blair, no surprise there
    Is this supposed to be an insult?
    It is the doctrine of purity which questions even the premise that you are not tribal and can think for yourself

    @HYUFD has this strange attitude that anyone voting for another party is a traitor to the cause even though it was in the country's best interests

    Mind you do not ask how he came to vote for Plaid as that is not counted
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,662
    Liz Truss preparing her Conference speech

    Dont tell em about the honey mummy

    https://twitter.com/NoContextBrits/status/1577626223219539969/photo/1
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,840
    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Voters now wanting Boris back already just a few weeks after he left No 10.

    Do you think the Conservative parliamentary party will be glad they removed Boris Johnson from his position as party leader and Prime Minister, or regret having removed him?


    Regret: 44% (+19 from 21 Jul)
    Glad: 24% (-33)

    65% of Tory voters say they will regret removing Boris

    https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1577688378711179266?s=20&t=4uUwrWFHDrZGaw_bGo5JoQ

    The question is about the party regretting it - not the voters .
    Nonetheless the huge 26% swing to regret Boris going since July suggests that is the public mood too. On a forced choice between Boris back or keeping Truss, most voters now want Boris back
    Thank heavens those aren’t actually the only two choices! In a non-forced choice, the voters overwhelmingly want Labour in office instead.
    ”The voters”? “Overwhelmingly”?

    53% of Welsh voters
    53% of English voters
    29% of Scottish voters
    No Irish voters

    Arrogance is not entirely confined to the Conservative Party.

    (numbers: latest Survation)
    Fantastic news the majority of Scottish voters now want to keep the Conservatives in office and Labour out of power, I always knew the Scots would come round eventually!
    You’re doing your classic arithmetic fail.

    Scottish Tories: 11%
    The only choice at Westminster is between a UK Tory government or a UK Labour government, so if they don't want a Labour led government then Scottish nationalists clearly want a Tory government by default instead
    Not true, as any fule kno, and as 2010-2015 showed, for instance.
    The choice was still between a Tory led government or a Labour led government even in 2010. The Tories were largest party and the LDs went into coalition with then as the junior party
    A "UK Tory government or a UK Labour government" is what you said. That excludes coalitions clearly - and we can add the DUP-Tory coalition as well.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,159
    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    PJH said:

    Leon said:

    "Thanks for waiting, your call is important to us"

    NO IT FUCKING ISN'T, YOU HAVEN'T ANSWERED FOR TWO HOURS

    Seriously. This is it. Like many on here I'm a higher rate taxpayer yet I've never really bothered to avoid tax, let alone evade it, I figure: I'm affluent, taxes are high buy fair, do my bit, it's easier and better

    But if the UK state cannot do the basics like process a few documents in under a year, thus actually LOSING me money, to higher inflation and FOREIGN tax jurisdictions, then fuck the British state. No more of my money will it get

    This is deliberate policy when confronted with the need to make savings, when all the obvious savings have already been made. This adds cost to the HMRC with no benefit to them, so an obvious target. The alternative is to fund the service properly, which the current government has no desire to do.
    To be fair, I did just get through to them after nearly 2 hours

    And the lady, after much faffing, admitted

    "Something has gone wrong"

    Grr....
    Do you expect your own hotline or something?
    Given that I am trying to persuade them to sign off on documents that mean I will pay tax on foreign income here in the UK, rather than, say, in Germany, France, Portugal, or Brazil, you'd think I'd get pretty quick service, not an 8 month delay on the documents, and several hours-long phone calls going nowhere

    I am actually STRIVING to make sure His Majesty's Revenue gets more money! Pillocks
    Poor show, yes. But what I do in such circs is put the phone on speaker and do other things, eg some housework. If you do that, there's nothing much lost. Much better than getting wound up. Also means when they finally pick up you're calm and focussed rather than angry and 'tight'. You can just give a little chuckle and say "about time, now then ... here's my issue".
  • You've done me wrong, your time is up
    You took a sip from the devil's cup
    You broke my heart, there's no way back
    Move right out of here, baby, go on pack your bags

    Brilliant choice of entrance song.
  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 8,163
    edited October 2022
    Foxy said:

    Have been crazy busy with work all day. Did see a news clip of her speech on a TV screen in the background in one meeting and said "oh god why is she in front of a blue screen? That will get chromakeyed" to laughter from my colleague.

    Is that if for this year's "The Thick of It Live" or is there any more to come?

    Didn't take long:

    https://twitter.com/UKLabour/status/1577623252121395201?t=pxhY3e6CiLauiUEOsJa1yA&s=19

    Though this was rather good:

    https://twitter.com/LabourDesign/status/1577633905733156865?t=gO7UL9OBbfuLCZ63EZ8veQ&s=19

    And this

    https://twitter.com/dollisp/status/1577620808716935168?t=4di90G7IuLhTI3IDW7BrkA&s=19
    :D:D:D:D Excellent!!!! I do love the Darth Vader theme!
  • nico679nico679 Posts: 6,275
    Was there a single policy announcement that anyone will remember from today’s Truss speech .

    The bar is clearly low when standing there and giving a wooden performance full of vacuous nonsense is now seen as some victory .

  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 8,163
    edited October 2022

    You've done me wrong, your time is up
    You took a sip from the devil's cup
    You broke my heart, there's no way back
    Move right out of here, baby, go on pack your bags

    Brilliant choice of entrance song.

    The original songwriter is not too pleased about it by used by her.

    https://twitter.com/themike_p/status/1577610088407244802
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,159
    Foxy said:

    kinabalu said:

    TimS said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    TOPPING said:

    eek said:

    TOPPING said:

    eek said:

    eek said:

    Another flaw in Liz Truss's growth plans


    How's it a flaw? Yes she's said that NIMBYs are a problem, and she's right to do so. And she's promised proposals (and given outlines) on fixing that problem, which would be great if it goes through.

    The bigger problem is that the backbench rebels will probably defeat her reforms, as they did when Boris tried to get sensible zoning reforms through, in which case the Tories deserve to lose the next election.
    The problem the Tory party has is build or trigger the building sufficient houses where they are needed and that seat is probably a "Home County Lib Dem*" win come the next election

    * other Lib Dem parties with different policies are available where nimby votes aren't important...
    They're in office, they're responsible.

    If they succeed in getting the laws right so homes are built, then that may lead to a Lib Dem win.

    If they fail to get the laws right so homes aren't built, then they deserve to lose the seat to the Lib Dems anyway.

    If you're not going to use your limited time in office to do something for the good of the country, only to try to extend your limited time in office, then you don't deserve any time in the first place.
    There is very little legislation or regulation against a vast amount of home building. The presumption just about anywhere for planning permission is that it will be granted.

    Supply is not the problem, affordability (or conversely the IRR of the developers) is the problem.

    You are tilting at windmills demanding that restrictions be removed when there are precious few hurdles to building more homes today.

    Edit: first google - https://www.gov.uk/government/news/home-building-stats-show-continued-increase-in-starts-and-completions-despite-pandemic
    I am afraid trying to point out that obvious truth to Bart is simply banging your head against a wall. I know, I have had this fight many times before. His perception of the scope and effect of planning laws is very far removed from reality.
    The scope and effect of planning laws, as we've discussed before, is to put the power for developing homes into the hands of "developers" that can navigate those laws and can have the scale to do the burdens put upon them for an entire estate.

    Issues like schools, services etc should be completely divorced from house building, no individual home is responsible for needing a school or any other service.
    So who would pay for those services - if not the companies profiteering from the development???
    The Council from Council Tax etc

    More houses means more Council Tax means more funding for schools.

    If an elderly couple die and their house is sold and is bought by someone with children then the demand for schools may change, but you don't expect them to build a new school for that home do you?

    If a young couple buy a home, then live in it for fifty years, they may then need social care rather than schooling.

    Demands change. The Council should handle that from its taxes for the services it provides.
    The council is voted in by the residents so that they can make these decisions. It is democracy at work to disallow someone from building a multi-storey block of flats in a village field if the villagers don't want it to be built there and would have to pay, via their Council tax, if it was built.
    And if those voters determined they don't want any black people in their village? Should that be voted for too?

    If someone wants to build a block of flats on their own land then that is their own land, not the villagers land.
    I thought you had an almost mystical respect for voting? Eg whenever I've suggested - as is my wont - that some things should be enshrined above and beyond the hurly burly of electoral politics you have always bridled.
    I do.

    If people want to create a law that allows NIMBYism, they should be allowed to do so.
    If people want to create a law that allows racism, they should be allowed to do so.

    However I retain the right to vehemently oppose both. I can and do have my own opinions on what the law should be, while respecting others right to disagree with me.

    In order to end racism or NIMBYism or sexism or any other destructive -ism we need to win the argument, not just have the law match our desires.
    Well to take your example, I don't think a village should be able to ban black people from living there. Not even if it's a landslide vote by the residents in favour. We will have to agree to disagree on this matter. As on one or two others.
    I don't think they should be able to either, but what I think may not win elections.

    Don't get me wrong, I would be happy to have a national law preventing residents from blocking black people/developments etc in their area. If a black family wants to build a home on their own land, they absolutely should be able to, and no residents of the village should get a say to deny them that right.
    We do have such a national law, I believe. Where we differ is you think the government should be able to scrap it if it has the requisite votes in the Commons - opening the way for these KKK villages to spring up all over the Black Forest (which I guess would then have to change its name) - whereas I think the government should not be able to do that, elected or not.
    You must think Switzerland is the most dystopian state in Europe.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/newsbeat-38595807

    In Switzerland, locals can vote on whether someone can become a citizen and people of Gipf-Oberfric have had their say.

    Nancy, who was born in the Netherlands, has campaigned for a long time against traditional Swiss cowbells, which animals wear to scare away predators and help farmers locate their livestock.

    Tanja Suter, president of the local branch of the Swiss People's Party, explained the rejection, saying that Nancy has a "big mouth" and is annoyed by her campaigns.

    "There are also Swiss who fight for the animal cause, but to be entitled to the passport, you have to show goodwill," Tanja tells local press.

    "We do not want to give her this gift if she bores us and does not respect our traditions."
    Not sure about "most dystopian state in Europe" but not keen, no.
    There’s a lot of curtain twitching action there. I had a client who was new to Switzerland ticked off by the town hall for mowing the lawn on a Sunday after being grassed up (geddit?) by a neighbour.
    I found Austria a bit like that too when I lived there. Quite oppressive.
    My brother got his lawnmower out one Sunday in Germany, and two police cars pulled up to stop him. He didn't do it again.

    I don't think it daft to have a rule for peace and quiet on a Sunday.
    Yes, it's not to my taste but I do understand the appeal of orderliness, a place for everything and everything in its place etc.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,662
    "I want what you want" says Liz Truss.


    I want her to fook off so thats all good with me
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,839
    Foxy said:

    Have been crazy busy with work all day. Did see a news clip of her speech on a TV screen in the background in one meeting and said "oh god why is she in front of a blue screen? That will get chromakeyed" to laughter from my colleague.

    Is that if for this year's "The Thick of It Live" or is there any more to come?

    Didn't take long:

    https://twitter.com/UKLabour/status/1577623252121395201?t=pxhY3e6CiLauiUEOsJa1yA&s=19

    Though this was rather good:

    https://twitter.com/LabourDesign/status/1577633905733156865?t=gO7UL9OBbfuLCZ63EZ8veQ&s=19

    And this

    https://twitter.com/dollisp/status/1577620808716935168?t=4di90G7IuLhTI3IDW7BrkA&s=19
    The Star Wars one is by far the best.
  • Twelve Ways to Divide the UK

    https://i.redd.it/2wjievs17vr91.jpg

    My favorite is "Horses"
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,406
    John Curtice on R5L now.
    Get markets onside.
    PM needs to show she's up to the job.
    Growth plan needs to work.
    All 3 need to happen to turn it around.
    Says this is like Black Wednesday.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,969
    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Voters now wanting Boris back already just a few weeks after he left No 10.

    Do you think the Conservative parliamentary party will be glad they removed Boris Johnson from his position as party leader and Prime Minister, or regret having removed him?


    Regret: 44% (+19 from 21 Jul)
    Glad: 24% (-33)

    65% of Tory voters say they will regret removing Boris

    https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1577688378711179266?s=20&t=4uUwrWFHDrZGaw_bGo5JoQ

    The question is about the party regretting it - not the voters .
    Nonetheless the huge 26% swing to regret Boris going since July suggests that is the public mood too. On a forced choice between Boris back or keeping Truss, most voters now want Boris back
    Thank heavens those aren’t actually the only two choices! In a non-forced choice, the voters overwhelmingly want Labour in office instead.
    ”The voters”? “Overwhelmingly”?

    53% of Welsh voters
    53% of English voters
    29% of Scottish voters
    No Irish voters

    Arrogance is not entirely confined to the Conservative Party.

    (numbers: latest Survation)
    Fantastic news the majority of Scottish voters now want to keep the Conservatives in office and Labour out of power, I always knew the Scots would come round eventually!
    You’re doing your classic arithmetic fail.

    Scottish Tories: 11%
    The only choice at Westminster is between a UK Tory government or a UK Labour government, so if they don't want a Labour led government then Scottish nationalists clearly want a Tory government by default instead
    Not true, as any fule kno, and as 2010-2015 showed, for instance.
    The choice was still between a Tory led government or a Labour led government even in 2010. The Tories were largest party and the LDs went into coalition with then as the junior party
    A "UK Tory government or a UK Labour government" is what you said. That excludes coalitions clearly - and we can add the DUP-Tory coalition as well.
    No it doesn't, the PM and Leader of the Government still comes from either the Tories or Labour
  • DavidL said:

    Foxy said:

    Have been crazy busy with work all day. Did see a news clip of her speech on a TV screen in the background in one meeting and said "oh god why is she in front of a blue screen? That will get chromakeyed" to laughter from my colleague.

    Is that if for this year's "The Thick of It Live" or is there any more to come?

    Didn't take long:

    https://twitter.com/UKLabour/status/1577623252121395201?t=pxhY3e6CiLauiUEOsJa1yA&s=19

    Though this was rather good:

    https://twitter.com/LabourDesign/status/1577633905733156865?t=gO7UL9OBbfuLCZ63EZ8veQ&s=19

    And this

    https://twitter.com/dollisp/status/1577620808716935168?t=4di90G7IuLhTI3IDW7BrkA&s=19
    The Star Wars one is by far the best.
    Evacuate?
    In our moment of Triumph?
    I think you over-estimate their chances...
  • pigeonpigeon Posts: 4,839

    Scott_xP said:

    I went to Tory conference at Birmingham. The Conservative Party has been smashed. Truss is finished and is on her way out. My new piece for Middle East Eye:

    https://www.middleeasteye.net/opinion/uk-liz-truss-finished-so-are-tories

    "Many Tory members are retired, and understandably terrified for their future because Kwarteng’s unforgivable financial buffoonery threatens pension funds with collapse. "

    And they put her in there against all the advice of anyone with more than 2 functional braincells. This was a train-wreck that was totally avoidable and visible from a long, long way off.

    The Tory Corbyn! :D:D
    I am not sure how the retired are affected by their pension funds as they will already have their pensions

    Nothing that has happened has made any difference to my private pension nor the terms of it

    It will of course worry very many who are getting near to retirement
    Just went and had a quick look into this on gov.uk. The gist of the rules appears to be that if you're in a money purchase scheme, most of those are run by pension providers rather than directly by employers, and what happens if the provider goes bust depends on whether or not it was authorised by the Financial Conduct Authority (which I would assume the overwhelming majority of such firms providing schemes for UK pensioners and pension savers would be.) If an FCA authorised provider sinks then you're made to apply to the FSCS for compensation, as you would be if a bank collapsed whilst holding your savings.

    The FSCS website states that, for firms that failed after April 1st 2019, they'll pay out full compensation with no upper limit for claims in respect of pension providers, and £85,000 per eligible person per firm for SIPP (self-invested personal pension) providers, which is the same limit as for bank accounts with collapsed banks.

    Defined benefit pension schemes are covered by the Pension Protection Fund, which usually preserves 100% of your benefits if you have already reached the pension age of the scheme, or 90% if you haven't.

    Regardless, the large bulk of pension savings aren't threatened, especially where pensions are already in payment. Doesn't mean that it wouldn't cost the Government a fortune in taxpayers' money if it needed to bail any of them out though.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,159

    kinabalu said:

    I found Austria a bit like that too when I lived there. Quite oppressive.

    I can believe it. Have always found Austria a lovely place to visit but gives off the vibe that there is a lot of pressure to conform.
    Yes there was. A very set ways of doing things. Eg I remember only being able to buy fags from registered outlets that opened 10 till 12 and then 2 till 4. And not at the weekend. Nor on Wednesdays. If you missed it, that was it. No smokes.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,840
    edited October 2022
    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Voters now wanting Boris back already just a few weeks after he left No 10.

    Do you think the Conservative parliamentary party will be glad they removed Boris Johnson from his position as party leader and Prime Minister, or regret having removed him?


    Regret: 44% (+19 from 21 Jul)
    Glad: 24% (-33)

    65% of Tory voters say they will regret removing Boris

    https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1577688378711179266?s=20&t=4uUwrWFHDrZGaw_bGo5JoQ

    The question is about the party regretting it - not the voters .
    Nonetheless the huge 26% swing to regret Boris going since July suggests that is the public mood too. On a forced choice between Boris back or keeping Truss, most voters now want Boris back
    Thank heavens those aren’t actually the only two choices! In a non-forced choice, the voters overwhelmingly want Labour in office instead.
    ”The voters”? “Overwhelmingly”?

    53% of Welsh voters
    53% of English voters
    29% of Scottish voters
    No Irish voters

    Arrogance is not entirely confined to the Conservative Party.

    (numbers: latest Survation)
    Fantastic news the majority of Scottish voters now want to keep the Conservatives in office and Labour out of power, I always knew the Scots would come round eventually!
    You’re doing your classic arithmetic fail.

    Scottish Tories: 11%
    The only choice at Westminster is between a UK Tory government or a UK Labour government, so if they don't want a Labour led government then Scottish nationalists clearly want a Tory government by default instead
    Not true, as any fule kno, and as 2010-2015 showed, for instance.
    The choice was still between a Tory led government or a Labour led government even in 2010. The Tories were largest party and the LDs went into coalition with then as the junior party
    A "UK Tory government or a UK Labour government" is what you said. That excludes coalitions clearly - and we can add the DUP-Tory coalition as well.
    No it doesn't, the PM and Leader of the Government still comes from either the Tories or Labour
    That's an abuse of political terminology and precision. YOu said "UK Tory Government or an UK Labour Government". Not "Coalition Government led by Mr Cameron".

    Remarkable tergiversation.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,839
    edited October 2022

    Russia’s latest rhetoric around Nordstream 2 yet more evidence that they are responsible.

    Is it not Nordstream 1 that they blew up? I don't think Nordstream 2 has ever been operational.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,969
    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Voters now wanting Boris back already just a few weeks after he left No 10.

    Do you think the Conservative parliamentary party will be glad they removed Boris Johnson from his position as party leader and Prime Minister, or regret having removed him?


    Regret: 44% (+19 from 21 Jul)
    Glad: 24% (-33)

    65% of Tory voters say they will regret removing Boris

    https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1577688378711179266?s=20&t=4uUwrWFHDrZGaw_bGo5JoQ

    The question is about the party regretting it - not the voters .
    Nonetheless the huge 26% swing to regret Boris going since July suggests that is the public mood too. On a forced choice between Boris back or keeping Truss, most voters now want Boris back
    Thank heavens those aren’t actually the only two choices! In a non-forced choice, the voters overwhelmingly want Labour in office instead.
    ”The voters”? “Overwhelmingly”?

    53% of Welsh voters
    53% of English voters
    29% of Scottish voters
    No Irish voters

    Arrogance is not entirely confined to the Conservative Party.

    (numbers: latest Survation)
    Fantastic news the majority of Scottish voters now want to keep the Conservatives in office and Labour out of power, I always knew the Scots would come round eventually!
    You’re doing your classic arithmetic fail.

    Scottish Tories: 11%
    The only choice at Westminster is between a UK Tory government or a UK Labour government, so if they don't want a Labour led government then Scottish nationalists clearly want a Tory government by default instead
    Not true, as any fule kno, and as 2010-2015 showed, for instance.
    The choice was still between a Tory led government or a Labour led government even in 2010. The Tories were largest party and the LDs went into coalition with then as the junior party
    A "UK Tory government or a UK Labour government" is what you said. That excludes coalitions clearly - and we can add the DUP-Tory coalition as well.
    No it doesn't, the PM and Leader of the Government still comes from either the Tories or Labour
    That's an abuse of political terminology and precision. YOu said "UK Tory Government or an UK Labour Government". Not "Coalition Government led by Mr Cameron".

    Remarkable tergiversation.
    Still a Conservative led government as a Conservative PM was leading it.

    That is the choice and if the SNP ever held the balance of power and did not back Labour they would be ensuring a Tory government and Tory PM instead
  • HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Was busy earlier when Truss' speech was on. A few good bits on her background catching up on iplayer but my goodness the delivery is awful and wooden.

    They make even IDS or May speeches seem like passionate oratory by comparison

    The problem you have is the toxic behaviour of your hero Johnson has plunged the party into this existential crisis, to which you are part of the problem as you are one of many different factions pulling each other apart in a deathly embrace

    The party is heading to oblivion and to be honest it only has itself to blame and you are part of the problem

    I have no sympathy and await PM Starmer
    Bye then, I always said you would go back to Labour as you did under Blair, no surprise there
    I do not need to even vote for labour, you and others in the party have ensured Starmer will be the next PM and you are going to be irrelevant politically for a very long time
    Bang on @Big_G_NorthWales . HYUFD is one of the useful idiots who kept providing succour to those that shifted the Party ever more in disastrous direction of right wing populism, led by his dishonest dickhead of a hero, "Boris"; a man not worthy of licking the boots of even his most undistinguished predecessors. They have destroyed the Conservative Party and made it an even bigger laughing stock than Labour was under Corbyn. The only glimmer of hope is that Labour has managed to turn itself around, though largely because of the credibility suicide squad led by the likes of HYUFD.
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,723
    edited October 2022
    You have to laugh at the thread header. The site has been doing its best to diss Liz Truss and the header says voters yet to be convinced. 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
  • RazedabodeRazedabode Posts: 3,028
    dixiedean said:

    John Curtice on R5L now.
    Get markets onside.
    PM needs to show she's up to the job.
    Growth plan needs to work.
    All 3 need to happen to turn it around.
    Says this is like Black Wednesday.

    No chance
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,557
    17% is generous given the latest opinion polls.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,969

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Was busy earlier when Truss' speech was on. A few good bits on her background catching up on iplayer but my goodness the delivery is awful and wooden.

    They make even IDS or May speeches seem like passionate oratory by comparison

    The problem you have is the toxic behaviour of your hero Johnson has plunged the party into this existential crisis, to which you are part of the problem as you are one of many different factions pulling each other apart in a deathly embrace

    The party is heading to oblivion and to be honest it only has itself to blame and you are part of the problem

    I have no sympathy and await PM Starmer
    Bye then, I always said you would go back to Labour as you did under Blair, no surprise there
    I do not need to even vote for labour, you and others in the party have ensured Starmer will be the next PM and you are going to be irrelevant politically for a very long time
    Bang on @Big_G_NorthWales . HYUFD is one of the useful idiots who kept providing succour to those that shifted the Party ever more in disastrous direction of right wing populism, led by his dishonest dickhead of a hero, "Boris"; a man not worthy of licking the boots of even his most undistinguished predecessors. They have destroyed the Conservative Party and made it an even bigger laughing stock than Labour was under Corbyn. The only glimmer of hope is that Labour has managed to turn itself around, though largely because of the credibility suicide squad led by the likes of HYUFD.
    Boris won the biggest Tory landslide since Thatcher. It is removing him that has led to 1997 style leads for Labour. Most polls even in the summer had Labour only getting to hung parliament territory at best
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,269
    Foxy said:

    kinabalu said:

    TimS said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    TOPPING said:

    eek said:

    TOPPING said:

    eek said:

    eek said:

    Another flaw in Liz Truss's growth plans


    How's it a flaw? Yes she's said that NIMBYs are a problem, and she's right to do so. And she's promised proposals (and given outlines) on fixing that problem, which would be great if it goes through.

    The bigger problem is that the backbench rebels will probably defeat her reforms, as they did when Boris tried to get sensible zoning reforms through, in which case the Tories deserve to lose the next election.
    The problem the Tory party has is build or trigger the building sufficient houses where they are needed and that seat is probably a "Home County Lib Dem*" win come the next election

    * other Lib Dem parties with different policies are available where nimby votes aren't important...
    They're in office, they're responsible.

    If they succeed in getting the laws right so homes are built, then that may lead to a Lib Dem win.

    If they fail to get the laws right so homes aren't built, then they deserve to lose the seat to the Lib Dems anyway.

    If you're not going to use your limited time in office to do something for the good of the country, only to try to extend your limited time in office, then you don't deserve any time in the first place.
    There is very little legislation or regulation against a vast amount of home building. The presumption just about anywhere for planning permission is that it will be granted.

    Supply is not the problem, affordability (or conversely the IRR of the developers) is the problem.

    You are tilting at windmills demanding that restrictions be removed when there are precious few hurdles to building more homes today.

    Edit: first google - https://www.gov.uk/government/news/home-building-stats-show-continued-increase-in-starts-and-completions-despite-pandemic
    I am afraid trying to point out that obvious truth to Bart is simply banging your head against a wall. I know, I have had this fight many times before. His perception of the scope and effect of planning laws is very far removed from reality.
    The scope and effect of planning laws, as we've discussed before, is to put the power for developing homes into the hands of "developers" that can navigate those laws and can have the scale to do the burdens put upon them for an entire estate.

    Issues like schools, services etc should be completely divorced from house building, no individual home is responsible for needing a school or any other service.
    So who would pay for those services - if not the companies profiteering from the development???
    The Council from Council Tax etc

    More houses means more Council Tax means more funding for schools.

    If an elderly couple die and their house is sold and is bought by someone with children then the demand for schools may change, but you don't expect them to build a new school for that home do you?

    If a young couple buy a home, then live in it for fifty years, they may then need social care rather than schooling.

    Demands change. The Council should handle that from its taxes for the services it provides.
    The council is voted in by the residents so that they can make these decisions. It is democracy at work to disallow someone from building a multi-storey block of flats in a village field if the villagers don't want it to be built there and would have to pay, via their Council tax, if it was built.
    And if those voters determined they don't want any black people in their village? Should that be voted for too?

    If someone wants to build a block of flats on their own land then that is their own land, not the villagers land.
    I thought you had an almost mystical respect for voting? Eg whenever I've suggested - as is my wont - that some things should be enshrined above and beyond the hurly burly of electoral politics you have always bridled.
    I do.

    If people want to create a law that allows NIMBYism, they should be allowed to do so.
    If people want to create a law that allows racism, they should be allowed to do so.

    However I retain the right to vehemently oppose both. I can and do have my own opinions on what the law should be, while respecting others right to disagree with me.

    In order to end racism or NIMBYism or sexism or any other destructive -ism we need to win the argument, not just have the law match our desires.
    Well to take your example, I don't think a village should be able to ban black people from living there. Not even if it's a landslide vote by the residents in favour. We will have to agree to disagree on this matter. As on one or two others.
    I don't think they should be able to either, but what I think may not win elections.

    Don't get me wrong, I would be happy to have a national law preventing residents from blocking black people/developments etc in their area. If a black family wants to build a home on their own land, they absolutely should be able to, and no residents of the village should get a say to deny them that right.
    We do have such a national law, I believe. Where we differ is you think the government should be able to scrap it if it has the requisite votes in the Commons - opening the way for these KKK villages to spring up all over the Black Forest (which I guess would then have to change its name) - whereas I think the government should not be able to do that, elected or not.
    You must think Switzerland is the most dystopian state in Europe.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/newsbeat-38595807

    In Switzerland, locals can vote on whether someone can become a citizen and people of Gipf-Oberfric have had their say.

    Nancy, who was born in the Netherlands, has campaigned for a long time against traditional Swiss cowbells, which animals wear to scare away predators and help farmers locate their livestock.

    Tanja Suter, president of the local branch of the Swiss People's Party, explained the rejection, saying that Nancy has a "big mouth" and is annoyed by her campaigns.

    "There are also Swiss who fight for the animal cause, but to be entitled to the passport, you have to show goodwill," Tanja tells local press.

    "We do not want to give her this gift if she bores us and does not respect our traditions."
    Not sure about "most dystopian state in Europe" but not keen, no.
    There’s a lot of curtain twitching action there. I had a client who was new to Switzerland ticked off by the town hall for mowing the lawn on a Sunday after being grassed up (geddit?) by a neighbour.
    I found Austria a bit like that too when I lived there. Quite oppressive.
    My brother got his lawnmower out one Sunday in Germany, and two police cars pulled up to stop him. He didn't do it again.

    I don't think it daft to have a rule for peace and quiet on a Sunday.
    I have always liked the fact that Switzerland is a country where not possessing an assault rifle can be a crime.

    And flushing your toilet after 11pm can get a visit from the police - for disturbing your neighbours.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 13,803

    Twelve Ways to Divide the UK

    https://i.redd.it/2wjievs17vr91.jpg

    My favorite is "Horses"

    That's quite funny.
    I bristle slightly at the North of England being in the 'post-industrial depression' category - most of it is at least 'both of the above'.
    Also a pedant notes West Cumberland is also rugby league. Though the rugby league band in Lancashire and Yorkshire is too wide - doesn't extend that far north.
    (ISTR that this only applies to watching rugby - even in the rugby league heartlands I think at least as many people play rugby union than play rugby league. @dixiedean may have a viewon this!)
  • CookieCookie Posts: 13,803
    kinabalu said:

    Cookie said:

    kinabalu said:

    Sean_F said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    TOPPING said:

    eek said:

    TOPPING said:

    eek said:

    eek said:

    Another flaw in Liz Truss's growth plans


    How's it a flaw? Yes she's said that NIMBYs are a problem, and she's right to do so. And she's promised proposals (and given outlines) on fixing that problem, which would be great if it goes through.

    The bigger problem is that the backbench rebels will probably defeat her reforms, as they did when Boris tried to get sensible zoning reforms through, in which case the Tories deserve to lose the next election.
    The problem the Tory party has is build or trigger the building sufficient houses where they are needed and that seat is probably a "Home County Lib Dem*" win come the next election

    * other Lib Dem parties with different policies are available where nimby votes aren't important...
    They're in office, they're responsible.

    If they succeed in getting the laws right so homes are built, then that may lead to a Lib Dem win.

    If they fail to get the laws right so homes aren't built, then they deserve to lose the seat to the Lib Dems anyway.

    If you're not going to use your limited time in office to do something for the good of the country, only to try to extend your limited time in office, then you don't deserve any time in the first place.
    There is very little legislation or regulation against a vast amount of home building. The presumption just about anywhere for planning permission is that it will be granted.

    Supply is not the problem, affordability (or conversely the IRR of the developers) is the problem.

    You are tilting at windmills demanding that restrictions be removed when there are precious few hurdles to building more homes today.

    Edit: first google - https://www.gov.uk/government/news/home-building-stats-show-continued-increase-in-starts-and-completions-despite-pandemic
    I am afraid trying to point out that obvious truth to Bart is simply banging your head against a wall. I know, I have had this fight many times before. His perception of the scope and effect of planning laws is very far removed from reality.
    The scope and effect of planning laws, as we've discussed before, is to put the power for developing homes into the hands of "developers" that can navigate those laws and can have the scale to do the burdens put upon them for an entire estate.

    Issues like schools, services etc should be completely divorced from house building, no individual home is responsible for needing a school or any other service.
    So who would pay for those services - if not the companies profiteering from the development???
    The Council from Council Tax etc

    More houses means more Council Tax means more funding for schools.

    If an elderly couple die and their house is sold and is bought by someone with children then the demand for schools may change, but you don't expect them to build a new school for that home do you?

    If a young couple buy a home, then live in it for fifty years, they may then need social care rather than schooling.

    Demands change. The Council should handle that from its taxes for the services it provides.
    The council is voted in by the residents so that they can make these decisions. It is democracy at work to disallow someone from building a multi-storey block of flats in a village field if the villagers don't want it to be built there and would have to pay, via their Council tax, if it was built.
    And if those voters determined they don't want any black people in their village? Should that be voted for too?

    If someone wants to build a block of flats on their own land then that is their own land, not the villagers land.
    I thought you had an almost mystical respect for voting? Eg whenever I've suggested - as is my wont - that some things should be enshrined above and beyond the hurly burly of electoral politics you have always bridled.
    I do.

    If people want to create a law that allows NIMBYism, they should be allowed to do so.
    If people want to create a law that allows racism, they should be allowed to do so.

    However I retain the right to vehemently oppose both. I can and do have my own opinions on what the law should be, while respecting others right to disagree with me.

    In order to end racism or NIMBYism or sexism or any other destructive -ism we need to win the argument, not just have the law match our desires.
    Well to take your example, I don't think a village should be able to ban black people from living there. Not even if it's a landslide vote by the residents in favour. We will have to agree to disagree on this matter. As on one or two others.
    I don't think they should be able to either, but what I think may not win elections.

    Don't get me wrong, I would be happy to have a national law preventing residents from blocking black people/developments etc in their area. If a black family wants to build a home on their own land, they absolutely should be able to, and no residents of the village should get a say to deny them that right.
    We do have such a national law, I believe. Where we differ is you think the government should be able to scrap it if it has the requisite votes in the Commons - opening the way for these KKK villages to spring up all over the Black Forest (which I guess would then have to change its name) - whereas I think the government should not be able to do that, elected or not.
    You must think Switzerland is the most dystopian state in Europe.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/newsbeat-38595807

    In Switzerland, locals can vote on whether someone can become a citizen and people of Gipf-Oberfric have had their say.

    Nancy, who was born in the Netherlands, has campaigned for a long time against traditional Swiss cowbells, which animals wear to scare away predators and help farmers locate their livestock.

    Tanja Suter, president of the local branch of the Swiss People's Party, explained the rejection, saying that Nancy has a "big mouth" and is annoyed by her campaigns.

    "There are also Swiss who fight for the animal cause, but to be entitled to the passport, you have to show goodwill," Tanja tells local press.

    "We do not want to give her this gift if she bores us and does not respect our traditions."
    "Nancy has also objected to hunting, locals racing piglets and even the sound of the village's church bells."

    I suspect Nancy has a few other issues as well.

    Nancy sounds like a pain in the arse.
    But withholding her citizenship is not proportionate. They should give Nancy a passport. I'm going to write to the Swiss Consulate.
    I'm with the Swiss here. It's entirely proportionate. Citizenship isn't a right. You have to be prepared to be a bit Swiss to be given it.
    They're telling her she can't have it because she "bores them". This is not on imo. It's capricious.
    My view is that citizenship is a club. It's up to the members of the club who they admit.
  • Scott_xP said:

    EXCLUSIVE: King Charles III is expected to be crowned on Saturday, June 3 next year in a ceremony at Westminster Abbey in London, UK officials say https://trib.al/scMyUPW https://twitter.com/BloombergUK/status/1577687117475504129/photo/1

    Derby Day, unless it is moved.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    You have to laugh at the thread header. The site has been doing its best to diss Liz Truss and the header says voters yet to be convinced. 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

    "Dissing" her would consist of portraying her as sillier and nastier than she actually is. Challenging.
  • HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Was busy earlier when Truss' speech was on. A few good bits on her background catching up on iplayer but my goodness the delivery is awful and wooden.

    They make even IDS or May speeches seem like passionate oratory by comparison

    The problem you have is the toxic behaviour of your hero Johnson has plunged the party into this existential crisis, to which you are part of the problem as you are one of many different factions pulling each other apart in a deathly embrace

    The party is heading to oblivion and to be honest it only has itself to blame and you are part of the problem

    I have no sympathy and await PM Starmer
    Bye then, I always said you would go back to Labour as you did under Blair, no surprise there
    I do not need to even vote for labour, you and others in the party have ensured Starmer will be the next PM and you are going to be irrelevant politically for a very long time
    Bang on @Big_G_NorthWales . HYUFD is one of the useful idiots who kept providing succour to those that shifted the Party ever more in disastrous direction of right wing populism, led by his dishonest dickhead of a hero, "Boris"; a man not worthy of licking the boots of even his most undistinguished predecessors. They have destroyed the Conservative Party and made it an even bigger laughing stock than Labour was under Corbyn. The only glimmer of hope is that Labour has managed to turn itself around, though largely because of the credibility suicide squad led by the likes of HYUFD.
    Boris won the biggest Tory landslide since Thatcher. It is removing him that has led to 1997 style leads for Labour. Most polls even in the summer had Labour only getting to hung parliament territory at best
    You demonstrate with every post why you are a dying breed of so called conservatives undertaking an internal and deathly civil war
  • pigeonpigeon Posts: 4,839
    Andy_JS said:

    17% is generous given the latest opinion polls.

    Must be an accumulation of Tories starting out with notional majority of around 100 (accounting for boundary change) plus Tories might get rid of Truss and miraculously stumble upon a popular replacement plus Labour might yet do something really silly, such as including a pledge to behead all puppies in the GE manifesto.

    Even so, I agree that 17% still seems excessive.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,840
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,969
    edited October 2022

    Scott_xP said:

    EXCLUSIVE: King Charles III is expected to be crowned on Saturday, June 3 next year in a ceremony at Westminster Abbey in London, UK officials say https://trib.al/scMyUPW https://twitter.com/BloombergUK/status/1577687117475504129/photo/1

    Derby Day, unless it is moved.
    The Coronation will be over by
    2 30pm, the main race of the Derby does not start until 4 30pm
  • HYUFD said:

    Scott_xP said:

    EXCLUSIVE: King Charles III is expected to be crowned on Saturday, June 3 next year in a ceremony at Westminster Abbey in London, UK officials say https://trib.al/scMyUPW https://twitter.com/BloombergUK/status/1577687117475504129/photo/1

    Derby Day, unless it is moved.
    The Coronation will be over by
    2 30pm, the main race of the Derby does not start until 4 30pm
    Traditionally, the winning owner has tea with the monarch. Do you think the King will make it in time?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,969

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_xP said:

    EXCLUSIVE: King Charles III is expected to be crowned on Saturday, June 3 next year in a ceremony at Westminster Abbey in London, UK officials say https://trib.al/scMyUPW https://twitter.com/BloombergUK/status/1577687117475504129/photo/1

    Derby Day, unless it is moved.
    The Coronation will be over by
    2 30pm, the main race of the Derby does not start until 4 30pm
    Traditionally, the winning owner has tea with the monarch. Do you think the King will make it in time?
    By helicopter if he wished after the race
  • Scott_xP said:

    EXCLUSIVE: King Charles III is expected to be crowned on Saturday, June 3 next year in a ceremony at Westminster Abbey in London, UK officials say https://trib.al/scMyUPW https://twitter.com/BloombergUK/status/1577687117475504129/photo/1

    Derby Day, unless it is moved.
    They are more likely to move the Coronation to Tattenham Corner.
  • Well, there's the dress and the necklace and what, while we are on the subject, is a particularly naff slogan, especially given her lot have been running the show for the past 12 years.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,840
    HYUFD said:

    Scott_xP said:

    EXCLUSIVE: King Charles III is expected to be crowned on Saturday, June 3 next year in a ceremony at Westminster Abbey in London, UK officials say https://trib.al/scMyUPW https://twitter.com/BloombergUK/status/1577687117475504129/photo/1

    Derby Day, unless it is moved.
    The Coronation will be over by
    2 30pm, the main race of the Derby does not start until 4 30pm
    Yes, but think of the travel disruption to the racegoers. Very inconsiderate.

  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,840
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_xP said:

    EXCLUSIVE: King Charles III is expected to be crowned on Saturday, June 3 next year in a ceremony at Westminster Abbey in London, UK officials say https://trib.al/scMyUPW https://twitter.com/BloombergUK/status/1577687117475504129/photo/1

    Derby Day, unless it is moved.
    The Coronation will be over by
    2 30pm, the main race of the Derby does not start until 4 30pm
    Traditionally, the winning owner has tea with the monarch. Do you think the King will make it in time?
    By helicopter if he wished after the race
    Optics, optics ...
  • HYUFD said:

    Scott_xP said:

    EXCLUSIVE: King Charles III is expected to be crowned on Saturday, June 3 next year in a ceremony at Westminster Abbey in London, UK officials say https://trib.al/scMyUPW https://twitter.com/BloombergUK/status/1577687117475504129/photo/1

    Derby Day, unless it is moved.
    The Coronation will be over by
    2 30pm, the main race of the Derby does not start until 4 30pm
    Get it over with quickly and then normal people can enjoy their sport
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 8,259
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Was busy earlier when Truss' speech was on. A few good bits on her background catching up on iplayer but my goodness the delivery is awful and wooden.

    They make even IDS or May speeches seem like passionate oratory by comparison

    The problem you have is the toxic behaviour of your hero Johnson has plunged the party into this existential crisis, to which you are part of the problem as you are one of many different factions pulling each other apart in a deathly embrace

    The party is heading to oblivion and to be honest it only has itself to blame and you are part of the problem

    I have no sympathy and await PM Starmer
    Bye then, I always said you would go back to Labour as you did under Blair, no surprise there
    I think you’ve misunderstood the point of politics… it’s about getting people to vote FOR you

  • kjhkjh Posts: 11,788

    IshmaelZ said:

    Scott_xP said:

    I went to Tory conference at Birmingham. The Conservative Party has been smashed. Truss is finished and is on her way out. My new piece for Middle East Eye:

    https://www.middleeasteye.net/opinion/uk-liz-truss-finished-so-are-tories

    "Many Tory members are retired, and understandably terrified for their future because Kwarteng’s unforgivable financial buffoonery threatens pension funds with collapse. "

    And they put her in there against all the advice of anyone with more than 2 functional braincells. This was a train-wreck that was totally avoidable and visible from a long, long way off.

    The Tory Corbyn! :D:D
    I am not sure how the retired are affected by their pension funds as they will already have their pensions

    Nothing that has happened has made any difference to my private pension nor the terms of it

    It will of course worry very many who are getting near to retirement
    They could be drawing down SIPPs rather than having bought annuities. Lots of people are what with the annuity rates on offer these days.
    Is that common, as it is 13 years since I retired and annuities seemed to be the norm

    I am not obviously as upto date
    I don't know anyone who takes an annuity now. I and my wife have drawdowns in addition to other investments.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,159

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Was busy earlier when Truss' speech was on. A few good bits on her background catching up on iplayer but my goodness the delivery is awful and wooden.

    They make even IDS or May speeches seem like passionate oratory by comparison

    The problem you have is the toxic behaviour of your hero Johnson has plunged the party into this existential crisis, to which you are part of the problem as you are one of many different factions pulling each other apart in a deathly embrace

    The party is heading to oblivion and to be honest it only has itself to blame and you are part of the problem

    I have no sympathy and await PM Starmer
    Bye then, I always said you would go back to Labour as you did under Blair, no surprise there
    Is this supposed to be an insult?
    It is the doctrine of purity which questions even the premise that you are not tribal and can think for yourself

    @HYUFD has this strange attitude that anyone voting for another party is a traitor to the cause even though it was in the country's best interests

    Mind you do not ask how he came to vote for Plaid as that is not counted
    He's voted for Plaid? That's quite amazing.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,585
    PJH said:

    Leon said:

    "Thanks for waiting, your call is important to us"

    NO IT FUCKING ISN'T, YOU HAVEN'T ANSWERED FOR TWO HOURS

    Seriously. This is it. Like many on here I'm a higher rate taxpayer yet I've never really bothered to avoid tax, let alone evade it, I figure: I'm affluent, taxes are high buy fair, do my bit, it's easier and better

    But if the UK state cannot do the basics like process a few documents in under a year, thus actually LOSING me money, to higher inflation and FOREIGN tax jurisdictions, then fuck the British state. No more of my money will it get

    This is deliberate policy when confronted with the need to make savings, when all the obvious savings have already been made. This adds cost to the HMRC with no benefit to them, so an obvious target. The alternative is to fund the service properly, which the current government has no desire to do.
    It’s a deliberate action from the senior civil servants in charge of the department, to make ‘savings’ in the most public-facing way possible, in order to generate complaints to the politicians.

    Rather like when the MoD proposes cutting the Buckingham Palace Guard or the Red Arrows.
  • Which one of you Radiohead loving degenerates made this pizza?


  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,969
    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_xP said:

    EXCLUSIVE: King Charles III is expected to be crowned on Saturday, June 3 next year in a ceremony at Westminster Abbey in London, UK officials say https://trib.al/scMyUPW https://twitter.com/BloombergUK/status/1577687117475504129/photo/1

    Derby Day, unless it is moved.
    The Coronation will be over by
    2 30pm, the main race of the Derby does not start until 4 30pm
    Yes, but think of the travel disruption to the racegoers. Very inconsiderate.

    Why? There will be plenty of owners and rich spectators flying in by helicopter and he is the King after all
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,159
    Cookie said:

    kinabalu said:

    Cookie said:

    kinabalu said:

    Sean_F said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    TOPPING said:

    eek said:

    TOPPING said:

    eek said:

    eek said:

    Another flaw in Liz Truss's growth plans


    How's it a flaw? Yes she's said that NIMBYs are a problem, and she's right to do so. And she's promised proposals (and given outlines) on fixing that problem, which would be great if it goes through.

    The bigger problem is that the backbench rebels will probably defeat her reforms, as they did when Boris tried to get sensible zoning reforms through, in which case the Tories deserve to lose the next election.
    The problem the Tory party has is build or trigger the building sufficient houses where they are needed and that seat is probably a "Home County Lib Dem*" win come the next election

    * other Lib Dem parties with different policies are available where nimby votes aren't important...
    They're in office, they're responsible.

    If they succeed in getting the laws right so homes are built, then that may lead to a Lib Dem win.

    If they fail to get the laws right so homes aren't built, then they deserve to lose the seat to the Lib Dems anyway.

    If you're not going to use your limited time in office to do something for the good of the country, only to try to extend your limited time in office, then you don't deserve any time in the first place.
    There is very little legislation or regulation against a vast amount of home building. The presumption just about anywhere for planning permission is that it will be granted.

    Supply is not the problem, affordability (or conversely the IRR of the developers) is the problem.

    You are tilting at windmills demanding that restrictions be removed when there are precious few hurdles to building more homes today.

    Edit: first google - https://www.gov.uk/government/news/home-building-stats-show-continued-increase-in-starts-and-completions-despite-pandemic
    I am afraid trying to point out that obvious truth to Bart is simply banging your head against a wall. I know, I have had this fight many times before. His perception of the scope and effect of planning laws is very far removed from reality.
    The scope and effect of planning laws, as we've discussed before, is to put the power for developing homes into the hands of "developers" that can navigate those laws and can have the scale to do the burdens put upon them for an entire estate.

    Issues like schools, services etc should be completely divorced from house building, no individual home is responsible for needing a school or any other service.
    So who would pay for those services - if not the companies profiteering from the development???
    The Council from Council Tax etc

    More houses means more Council Tax means more funding for schools.

    If an elderly couple die and their house is sold and is bought by someone with children then the demand for schools may change, but you don't expect them to build a new school for that home do you?

    If a young couple buy a home, then live in it for fifty years, they may then need social care rather than schooling.

    Demands change. The Council should handle that from its taxes for the services it provides.
    The council is voted in by the residents so that they can make these decisions. It is democracy at work to disallow someone from building a multi-storey block of flats in a village field if the villagers don't want it to be built there and would have to pay, via their Council tax, if it was built.
    And if those voters determined they don't want any black people in their village? Should that be voted for too?

    If someone wants to build a block of flats on their own land then that is their own land, not the villagers land.
    I thought you had an almost mystical respect for voting? Eg whenever I've suggested - as is my wont - that some things should be enshrined above and beyond the hurly burly of electoral politics you have always bridled.
    I do.

    If people want to create a law that allows NIMBYism, they should be allowed to do so.
    If people want to create a law that allows racism, they should be allowed to do so.

    However I retain the right to vehemently oppose both. I can and do have my own opinions on what the law should be, while respecting others right to disagree with me.

    In order to end racism or NIMBYism or sexism or any other destructive -ism we need to win the argument, not just have the law match our desires.
    Well to take your example, I don't think a village should be able to ban black people from living there. Not even if it's a landslide vote by the residents in favour. We will have to agree to disagree on this matter. As on one or two others.
    I don't think they should be able to either, but what I think may not win elections.

    Don't get me wrong, I would be happy to have a national law preventing residents from blocking black people/developments etc in their area. If a black family wants to build a home on their own land, they absolutely should be able to, and no residents of the village should get a say to deny them that right.
    We do have such a national law, I believe. Where we differ is you think the government should be able to scrap it if it has the requisite votes in the Commons - opening the way for these KKK villages to spring up all over the Black Forest (which I guess would then have to change its name) - whereas I think the government should not be able to do that, elected or not.
    You must think Switzerland is the most dystopian state in Europe.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/newsbeat-38595807

    In Switzerland, locals can vote on whether someone can become a citizen and people of Gipf-Oberfric have had their say.

    Nancy, who was born in the Netherlands, has campaigned for a long time against traditional Swiss cowbells, which animals wear to scare away predators and help farmers locate their livestock.

    Tanja Suter, president of the local branch of the Swiss People's Party, explained the rejection, saying that Nancy has a "big mouth" and is annoyed by her campaigns.

    "There are also Swiss who fight for the animal cause, but to be entitled to the passport, you have to show goodwill," Tanja tells local press.

    "We do not want to give her this gift if she bores us and does not respect our traditions."
    "Nancy has also objected to hunting, locals racing piglets and even the sound of the village's church bells."

    I suspect Nancy has a few other issues as well.

    Nancy sounds like a pain in the arse.
    But withholding her citizenship is not proportionate. They should give Nancy a passport. I'm going to write to the Swiss Consulate.
    I'm with the Swiss here. It's entirely proportionate. Citizenship isn't a right. You have to be prepared to be a bit Swiss to be given it.
    They're telling her she can't have it because she "bores them". This is not on imo. It's capricious.
    My view is that citizenship is a club. It's up to the members of the club who they admit.
    You have to keep prejudice out of it though. You can slide into that if you take too much account of popular opinion in these matters.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,969

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Was busy earlier when Truss' speech was on. A few good bits on her background catching up on iplayer but my goodness the delivery is awful and wooden.

    They make even IDS or May speeches seem like passionate oratory by comparison

    The problem you have is the toxic behaviour of your hero Johnson has plunged the party into this existential crisis, to which you are part of the problem as you are one of many different factions pulling each other apart in a deathly embrace

    The party is heading to oblivion and to be honest it only has itself to blame and you are part of the problem

    I have no sympathy and await PM Starmer
    Bye then, I always said you would go back to Labour as you did under Blair, no surprise there
    I think you’ve misunderstood the point of politics… it’s about getting people to vote FOR you

    I am a Tory and will vote for the Tories at every general election for all eternity but unless you want a one party state occasionally some swing voters will go to Labour, like BigG
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,969
    kinabalu said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Was busy earlier when Truss' speech was on. A few good bits on her background catching up on iplayer but my goodness the delivery is awful and wooden.

    They make even IDS or May speeches seem like passionate oratory by comparison

    The problem you have is the toxic behaviour of your hero Johnson has plunged the party into this existential crisis, to which you are part of the problem as you are one of many different factions pulling each other apart in a deathly embrace

    The party is heading to oblivion and to be honest it only has itself to blame and you are part of the problem

    I have no sympathy and await PM Starmer
    Bye then, I always said you would go back to Labour as you did under Blair, no surprise there
    Is this supposed to be an insult?
    It is the doctrine of purity which questions even the premise that you are not tribal and can think for yourself

    @HYUFD has this strange attitude that anyone voting for another party is a traitor to the cause even though it was in the country's best interests

    Mind you do not ask how he came to vote for Plaid as that is not counted
    He's voted for Plaid? That's quite amazing.
    I voted for every Tory candidate on the town council ballot paper ie 4. However I had 6 votes and on principle always use all my votes
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,648

    Which one of you Radiohead loving degenerates made this pizza?

    It should be lamb and kiwi fruit for the full NZ experience.
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