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Normal politics will resume after the funeral – politicalbetting.com

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  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 59,666
    F1: penalties for many, perhaps including both Red Bulls and Sainz.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 81,417
    edited September 9

    Ghedebrav said:

    Good to see that the rugby (both codes) and (probably?) cricket are going ahead tomorrow. Sense at last.

    Football going to look a little bit odd.

    All grass roots matches cancelled too, everything under the FA umbrella - including my son's under 10s game this Sunday. TBH it was an 8am start so I'm not moaning.
    Really? That is beyond ridiculous

    Grassroots is excessive. It's big public stuff youd think theyd focus on. FA a bit timorous I guess.
  • TazTaz Posts: 6,219
    A judge on the TV show ‘The Masked Dancer’ offers his view on the cancellation of this weekends soccer program.

    https://twitter.com/petercrouch/status/1568215801341116416?s=21&t=mYzpxST19DsapSC4_qY16w
  • CookieCookie Posts: 7,826
    Sandpit said:

    They say you only get one chance to make a first impression, well the new King and Queen have definitely made a good first impression.

    They can make a better one if they encourage people to just get on with life a bit.
    Because I'm sure the order to cancel kid's football or weather forecasts or adverts on Dave hasn't come from them.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 81,417
    Cookie said:

    dixiedean said:

    Cookie said:

    dixiedean said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    Good to see that the rugby (both codes) and (probably?) cricket are going ahead tomorrow. Sense at last.

    Football going to look a little bit odd.

    All grass roots matches cancelled too, everything under the FA umbrella - including my son's under 10s game this Sunday. TBH it was an 8am start so I'm not moaning.
    Really? That is beyond ridiculous

    Indeed.
    8 f****** am?!
    Yes, I posted something similar on the previous thread. My 11 year old daughter's football has also been cancelled.
    It's a new team. They aren't even playing other teams yet; they're just training.
    I cannot imagine any of the players, or the coaches, want to cancel it.
    Can this really be what the queen would have wanted? Can this really be what Charles would want?
    Has training been cancelled by order of the FA?
    Seems impossible to enforce.
    Anything which falls under the umbrella of the FA. And as it's an FA affiliated club...
    I'm sure it is impossible to enforce. Fucking daft nonetheless.

    Even my mother in law - who takes an interest in the royal family, watches royal weddings, etc - thinks things have gone way over the top.
    It's a once in a lifetime event, things are supposed to be a bit over the top. The FA could have been a bit more nuanced though.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 28,024
    Cookie said:

    Sandpit said:

    They say you only get one chance to make a first impression, well the new King and Queen have definitely made a good first impression.

    They can make a better one if they encourage people to just get on with life a bit.
    Because I'm sure the order to cancel kid's football or weather forecasts or adverts on Dave hasn't come from them.
    Not cancelling weather forecasts. Just the chatty extras and blogs.

  • kle4kle4 Posts: 81,417
    Sandpit said:

    Wow, the King stopped his car outside Buckingham Palace, got out and is shaking hands with the crowd.

    You only get one chance to make a second impression, even as King.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 18,588
    Our email signature is now in greyscale. Respect.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 41,886
    edited September 9

    F1: penalties for many, perhaps including both Red Bulls and Sainz.

    New engines:
    Hamilton
    Verstappen
    Perez
    Tsunoda
    Bottas

    New turbo, MGU-H
    Hamilton
    Tsunoda
    Bottas

    New MGU-K
    Hamilton
    Sainz
    Tsunoda

    New ES
    Sainz

    All of the above are non-compliant with reliability regulations, Rule 28.2, and penalties will follow.
    https://www.fia.com/sites/default/files/decision-document/2022 Italian Grand Prix - New PU elements for this Event.pdf
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 104,550
    edited September 9
    Cookie said:

    Apparently as a mark of respect Dave isn't showing any adverts.

    Not a patch on this.


  • darkagedarkage Posts: 3,203
    edited September 9

    Sandpit said:

    Fishing said:

    IanB2 said:

    MISTY said:

    HYUFD said:

    Truss I thought handled the events of yesterday well. They obviously will dominate buy she combined paying tribute to our lost Queen with welcoming our new King.

    Luckily for her she also got her plans for an energy bill cap in before the news broke

    Plus the restart of fracking.

    I think the tories are going to need to be very careful about how they sell that one though.

    British voters these days want cheap gas without fracking near them, just as they want great public services with low taxes, lots of new property but no development where they live, low government debt but lots of spending, and free speech but censorship of opinions they disagree with.

    Bringing the two topics together, the reason is that the Crown retains the mineral rights beneath all of our properties (whereas in the US, you buy land, you own the minerals below as well). If HMQ has left her country-wide mineral rights to landowners in her will, then suddenly lots of people will become very keen on fracking near them!
    Same I imagine if people got a share in new houses sold for the first time near them.

    It's about the one thing I can see solving the housing crisis.
    That was my idea from a couple of days ago. Make more taxes local, including mineral extraction taxes, and local authorities less dependent on central funding. That way the incentives are to build more houses and to extract more minerals. Give everyone a cheque instead of a council tax bill, and watch the level of support for housebuilding and fracking change.
    I suggested this once to a planner. He suggested that if a property developer tried that (my suggestion was a payment to local residents as part of the planning application) they would be liable for prosecution for bribery.

    Any legal eagles want to comment?
    This is an idea that the tories have aired a few times, it isn't new.

    As it stands though, as far as I know, there is nothing stopping developer giving a load of money to local residents as part of a planning application in a 'private agreement' but it would be throwing money away. They cannot do anything to stop them exercising their right of objection. And other people might still object anyway. And it will look terrible. And all the usual planning issues still apply anyway, so the fact that some people have been paid to support or not object will make little difference to the outcome.

    More realistically, the developer could say, as part of the application, that they will pay £££££ towards something, but there are quite specific and tricky tests that apply as to what can legally be taken in to account in the decision and then, ultimately, enforced. Ironically it was the tories that tightened these rules up at the request of the property industry, making it harder for local authorities to demand payments to mitigate harms - which then just made it easier for Coucil's to refuse planning applications on technicalities like this.

    If a developer proposed that they will pay X every year to X resident in a specified area (say fracking revenues) , then as far as I know there would be no lawful way to take that in to account in a planning decision, so if there was a legal agreement requiring this, it could be varied after the decision to nullify it.

    Some Councils have embarked on legal experiments to circumvent planning legislation by using agreements with developers to fund infrastructure necessary to comply with the habitats regulations by making agreements under random and obscure parts of the local government Act, but I have doubts that this could be applied to the scenario above.

    Edit - I don't think any of this would be regarded as bribery; unless planners or councillors were being privately incentivised to approve development.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 6,575

    Sandpit said:

    Fishing said:

    IanB2 said:

    MISTY said:

    HYUFD said:

    Truss I thought handled the events of yesterday well. They obviously will dominate buy she combined paying tribute to our lost Queen with welcoming our new King.

    Luckily for her she also got her plans for an energy bill cap in before the news broke

    Plus the restart of fracking.

    I think the tories are going to need to be very careful about how they sell that one though.

    British voters these days want cheap gas without fracking near them, just as they want great public services with low taxes, lots of new property but no development where they live, low government debt but lots of spending, and free speech but censorship of opinions they disagree with.

    Bringing the two topics together, the reason is that the Crown retains the mineral rights beneath all of our properties (whereas in the US, you buy land, you own the minerals below as well). If HMQ has left her country-wide mineral rights to landowners in her will, then suddenly lots of people will become very keen on fracking near them!
    Same I imagine if people got a share in new houses sold for the first time near them.

    It's about the one thing I can see solving the housing crisis.
    That was my idea from a couple of days ago. Make more taxes local, including mineral extraction taxes, and local authorities less dependent on central funding. That way the incentives are to build more houses and to extract more minerals. Give everyone a cheque instead of a council tax bill, and watch the level of support for housebuilding and fracking change.
    I suggested this once to a planner. He suggested that if a property developer tried that (my suggestion was a payment to local residents as part of the planning application) they would be liable for prosecution for bribery.

    Any legal eagles want to comment?
    One point is fairly simple: bribery is bribery, and an offence, except where it is specifically made lawful by statute. Do not believe anyone who says this can't happen. But it does require primary legislation. Like tax law, which of course legitimates what would otherwise be theft.

  • kle4kle4 Posts: 81,417
    Nigelb said:

    Michigan ballot initiative to enshrine abortion rights in the constitution will go ahead (after the elections board tried to remove it for 'incorrect spacing' between words).

    https://www.courts.michigan.gov/4a5828/siteassets/case-documents/briefs/msc/2022-2023/164760/164760-2022-09-08-or.pdf
    ...Seven hundred fifty three thousand and seven hundred fifty nine Michiganders signed this proposal—more than have ever signed any proposal in Michigan’s history. The challengers have not produced a single signer who claims to have been confused by the limited-spacing sections in the full text portion of the proposal. Yet two members of the Board of State Canvassers would prevent the people of Michigan from voting on the proposal because they believe that the decreased spacing makes the text no longer “[t]he full text.” That is, even though there is no dispute that every word appears and appears legibly and in the correct order, and there is no evidence that anyone was confused about the text, two members of the Board of State Canvassers with the power to do so would keep the petition from the voters for what they purport to be a technical violation of the statute. They would disenfranchise millions of Michiganders not because they believe the many thousands of Michiganders who signed the proposal were confused by it, but because they think they have identified a technicality that allows them to do so, a game of gotcha gone very bad....

    It reminds me, I think, of a Roberts ruling re Obamacare hinging on some inartful drafting but to sink on that would be calamitous.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 28,799
    To put into context what is happening in Ukraine right now, every analyst I know is in a state of disbelief at just how quickly Ukraine is advancing. They keep saying “there’s no way they’ve made that much progress”, only to see visual conformation of that progress hours later.”

    https://twitter.com/ozkaterji/status/1568229587439570950?s=46&t=fqdL0K9NxkSTGjHlnCTk_A

    It feels a bit too good to be true

    🙏🙏
  • Leon said:

    The Ukrainian front is changing at breakneck speed


    “Pro-Russian mapmakers tracking the fighting around Kharkiv are showing a really significant problem for Russia unfolding rapidly.”

    https://twitter.com/eliothiggins/status/1568216432072073217?s=46&t=fqdL0K9NxkSTGjHlnCTk_A

    A Russian army in danger of encirclement? Or Ukrainian overstretch?

    The Ukrainians obviously have to be very careful.

    However, they are probably several pointers to say it's not overstretch. First, they are likely to be receiving top-notch intelligence from allies (plus their own partisan networks behind the lines). Second, it's clear Russia had cleared out most of its better forces from the area in the belief it was a "quiet" front. Third, to be overstretched implies there is a risk of a credible counterattack. Nothing from what we are seeing at the moment suggests the Russians are capable of that.

    Personally, I think we are looking a plain old collapse of the front.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 81,417

    dixiedean said:

    Thinking of an afternoon nap.
    Not sure whether that would be respectful or disrespectful?

    The Queen was 96. I'm sure she appreciated an afternoon nap.
    And a gin. Leon has the right idea (just not on a hike).
  • CookieCookie Posts: 7,826
    Taz said:

    A judge on the TV show ‘The Masked Dancer’ offers his view on the cancellation of this weekends soccer program.

    https://twitter.com/petercrouch/status/1568215801341116416?s=21&t=mYzpxST19DsapSC4_qY16w

    I clicked on that with some trepidation. But I agree exactly. Well put Peter.
    (I saw him once in a soft play centre in Cheadle Hulme. Apparently you see such people in such places all the time, but for the not-heavily invested one footballer looks much like another. Peter Crouch is difficult to miss though.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 42,789

    Sandpit said:

    Fishing said:

    IanB2 said:

    MISTY said:

    HYUFD said:

    Truss I thought handled the events of yesterday well. They obviously will dominate buy she combined paying tribute to our lost Queen with welcoming our new King.

    Luckily for her she also got her plans for an energy bill cap in before the news broke

    Plus the restart of fracking.

    I think the tories are going to need to be very careful about how they sell that one though.

    British voters these days want cheap gas without fracking near them, just as they want great public services with low taxes, lots of new property but no development where they live, low government debt but lots of spending, and free speech but censorship of opinions they disagree with.

    Bringing the two topics together, the reason is that the Crown retains the mineral rights beneath all of our properties (whereas in the US, you buy land, you own the minerals below as well). If HMQ has left her country-wide mineral rights to landowners in her will, then suddenly lots of people will become very keen on fracking near them!
    Same I imagine if people got a share in new houses sold for the first time near them.

    It's about the one thing I can see solving the housing crisis.
    That was my idea from a couple of days ago. Make more taxes local, including mineral extraction taxes, and local authorities less dependent on central funding. That way the incentives are to build more houses and to extract more minerals. Give everyone a cheque instead of a council tax bill, and watch the level of support for housebuilding and fracking change.
    I suggested this once to a planner. He suggested that if a property developer tried that (my suggestion was a payment to local residents as part of the planning application) they would be liable for prosecution for bribery.

    Any legal eagles want to comment?
    That was the thinking behind the local element of CIL, which the LibDems achieved within the Localism Act.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 59,666
    Mr. Sandpit, cheers for that info.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 7,826

    Leon said:

    The Ukrainian front is changing at breakneck speed


    “Pro-Russian mapmakers tracking the fighting around Kharkiv are showing a really significant problem for Russia unfolding rapidly.”

    https://twitter.com/eliothiggins/status/1568216432072073217?s=46&t=fqdL0K9NxkSTGjHlnCTk_A

    A Russian army in danger of encirclement? Or Ukrainian overstretch?

    The Ukrainians obviously have to be very careful.

    However, they are probably several pointers to say it's not overstretch. First, they are likely to be receiving top-notch intelligence from allies (plus their own partisan networks behind the lines). Second, it's clear Russia had cleared out most of its better forces from the area in the belief it was a "quiet" front. Third, to be overstretched implies there is a risk of a credible counterattack. Nothing from what we are seeing at the moment suggests the Russians are capable of that.

    Personally, I think we are looking a plain old collapse of the front.
    If it is a collapse of the front - then what? Excuse my strategic ignorance, but what could that imply? Ukraine advancing right to the border? Mass capture of troops?
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 42,789

    dixiedean said:

    Thinking of an afternoon nap.
    Not sure whether that would be respectful or disrespectful?

    Depends on if you snore or dribble.
    “Depends on if” ??

    What kind of English is that?
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 45,293
    Leon said:

    The Ukrainian front is changing at breakneck speed


    “Pro-Russian mapmakers tracking the fighting around Kharkiv are showing a really significant problem for Russia unfolding rapidly.”

    https://twitter.com/eliothiggins/status/1568216432072073217?s=46&t=fqdL0K9NxkSTGjHlnCTk_A

    A Russian army in danger of encirclement? Or Ukrainian overstretch?

    The fast moving tactics of the Ukranians are inspiring, especially after the stalemate of the last 3 months.

    As long as they have fuel and amunition they can easily pierce the Russian lines which have been stretched thin to provide additional support to Kherson and then wreak chaos in the supply lines behind the Russian forces. Individual units may find themselves in local difficulties but the effect on the Russian front line units will be devastating. What we need to see are the large scale surrender of units cut off and out of ammunition. At that point the Russian forces may well collapse.

    This isn't the end but it is starting to look like the beginning of the end.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 81,417

    A lot of people commenting on the Queen's sense of humour with regards to the James Bond sketch or the Paddington Bear one, but we mustn't forget her good sport for her cameo appearance in the Naked Gun movie.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cWO7QAOnOJU

    It's disgusting the way they splash this stuff all over the newspapers! What is journalism coming to? You're laying on top of the queen with her legs wrapped around you. And they call that news.

    (When I was a kid and saw that movie, I genuinely thought at first it was the Queen and was impressed she'd done that cameo)

    Only just noticed the papers in that scene show different shots of it, including her on top.
  • MikeLMikeL Posts: 6,927
    So the FA cancel all football whilst almost all other sports go ahead.

    Of course nobody would dream of saying it - but just maybe the FA is looking to earn lots of brownie points so that Truss doesn't go ahead with the proposal for a new Football Regulator.

    "I mean look how responsible the football authorities are ........... they showed so much respect postponing matches when everyone else went ahead ............ they can be trusted to do the right thing ........... so no, on reflection, no need for the new Football Regulator!"
  • LeonLeon Posts: 28,799
    Apparently this is painted on the side of an apartment block in Ukraine


  • FlatlanderFlatlander Posts: 2,771
    Leon said:

    Apparently this is painted on the side of an apartment block in Ukraine


    If it is, it wasn't recent.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 35,597
    DavidL said:

    Leon said:

    The Ukrainian front is changing at breakneck speed


    “Pro-Russian mapmakers tracking the fighting around Kharkiv are showing a really significant problem for Russia unfolding rapidly.”

    https://twitter.com/eliothiggins/status/1568216432072073217?s=46&t=fqdL0K9NxkSTGjHlnCTk_A

    A Russian army in danger of encirclement? Or Ukrainian overstretch?

    The fast moving tactics of the Ukranians are inspiring, especially after the stalemate of the last 3 months.

    As long as they have fuel and amunition they can easily pierce the Russian lines which have been stretched thin to provide additional support to Kherson and then wreak chaos in the supply lines behind the Russian forces. Individual units may find themselves in local difficulties but the effect on the Russian front line units will be devastating. What we need to see are the large scale surrender of units cut off and out of ammunition. At that point the Russian forces may well collapse.

    This isn't the end but it is starting to look like the beginning of the end.
    One thing that is curious is that the Polish tanks haven't appeared in number. Having the Russians tied down in Kherson and Izium may mean a third offensive, perhaps in the direction of Melitopol may be the coup de grace. The advantage of being able to shift forces between fronts lies with UKR.
  • darkagedarkage Posts: 3,203
    edited September 9
    DavidL said:

    Leon said:

    The Ukrainian front is changing at breakneck speed


    “Pro-Russian mapmakers tracking the fighting around Kharkiv are showing a really significant problem for Russia unfolding rapidly.”

    https://twitter.com/eliothiggins/status/1568216432072073217?s=46&t=fqdL0K9NxkSTGjHlnCTk_A

    A Russian army in danger of encirclement? Or Ukrainian overstretch?

    The fast moving tactics of the Ukranians are inspiring, especially after the stalemate of the last 3 months.

    As long as they have fuel and amunition they can easily pierce the Russian lines which have been stretched thin to provide additional support to Kherson and then wreak chaos in the supply lines behind the Russian forces. Individual units may find themselves in local difficulties but the effect on the Russian front line units will be devastating. What we need to see are the large scale surrender of units cut off and out of ammunition. At that point the Russian forces may well collapse.

    This isn't the end but it is starting to look like the beginning of the end.
    If that is true, then it seems to me like a moment of maximum danger with regard to Putin. How will he take such a setback?
  • MikeLMikeL Posts: 6,927
    PGA Championship golf restarts on Saturday - but reduced to 54 holes.

    "It is not possible to play the full 72 holes and finish on Monday as we cannot guarantee the staff, facilities or security of the venue on Monday due to the on-going plans for the state funeral."
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 42,789

    Leon said:

    Apparently this is painted on the side of an apartment block in Ukraine


    If it is, it wasn't recent.
    Leon will fall for any old photoshopped rubbish on Twitter, so who knows?
  • Pro_RataPro_Rata Posts: 3,840
    On the cancellation of events, I think it is horses for courses and consider the impact.

    Each sport, even, is different. Postponements are a thing in football, it is early season, Wednesday fill ins are possible, the FA and EPL have competence over their scheduling. It is a different consideration for European Football, late season rugby (which will also not tolerate 3 day recovery times as well), getting cricket done.

    I think, on an amateur, club level, letting the kids get together, perhaps to chat and commemorate is no bad thing.

    The demanded protocol doesn't yet seem onerous (quite possibly the queen herself rejected the stop all the clocks approach as nonsense) and life goes on, but it will vary.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 35,597
    Pro_Rata said:

    On the cancellation of events, I think it is horses for courses and consider the impact.

    Each sport, even, is different. Postponements are a thing in football, it is early season, Wednesday fill ins are possible, the FA and EPL have competence over their scheduling. It is a different consideration for European Football, late season rugby (which will also not tolerate 3 day recovery times as well), getting cricket done.

    I think, on an amateur, club level, letting the kids get together, perhaps to chat and commemorate is no bad thing.

    The demanded protocol doesn't yet seem onerous (quite possibly the queen herself rejected the stop all the clocks approach as nonsense) and life goes on, but it will vary.

    I think the earliest mid week dates to reschedule fixtures is Jan 17-18th.
  • darkagedarkage Posts: 3,203
    In other news, at least we seem to be getting a decent amount of rain (here in the south east at least) and have briefly at least moved on from the climate apocalypse on PB.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 8,346
    darkage said:

    In other news, at least we seem to be getting a decent amount of rain (here in the south east at least) and have briefly at least moved on from the climate apocalypse on PB.

    Indeed. Absolutely throwing it down yesterday in Kent and in London. Seems refreshingly normalish weather for Sept.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 45,293
    darkage said:

    DavidL said:

    Leon said:

    The Ukrainian front is changing at breakneck speed


    “Pro-Russian mapmakers tracking the fighting around Kharkiv are showing a really significant problem for Russia unfolding rapidly.”

    https://twitter.com/eliothiggins/status/1568216432072073217?s=46&t=fqdL0K9NxkSTGjHlnCTk_A

    A Russian army in danger of encirclement? Or Ukrainian overstretch?

    The fast moving tactics of the Ukranians are inspiring, especially after the stalemate of the last 3 months.

    As long as they have fuel and amunition they can easily pierce the Russian lines which have been stretched thin to provide additional support to Kherson and then wreak chaos in the supply lines behind the Russian forces. Individual units may find themselves in local difficulties but the effect on the Russian front line units will be devastating. What we need to see are the large scale surrender of units cut off and out of ammunition. At that point the Russian forces may well collapse.

    This isn't the end but it is starting to look like the beginning of the end.
    If that is true, then it seems to me like a moment of maximum danger with regard to Putin. How will he take such a setback?
    I was saying this a week or so ago in the context of Kherson (which is starting to look like a rather brilliant feint). If Russia suffers a real and undeniable set back involving thousands of men I think Putin will be in serious danger of literal defenestration but that will be a moment of genuine peril for the world, not just Russia. I do not think that the risks of a comprehensive defeat for Russia, much though I wish for it, are being taken nearly seriously enough. The chances of a nuclear war are not insignificant.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 42,619
    edited September 9
    Cookie said:

    Apparently as a mark of respect Dave isn't showing any adverts.

    Or C4 - just watched Countdown with mum, we didn't have time to do the first of the "teaser" puzzles because there was no time! However, the second one I got even as Colin Murray was reading it out :)
  • DavidL said:

    Leon said:

    The Ukrainian front is changing at breakneck speed


    “Pro-Russian mapmakers tracking the fighting around Kharkiv are showing a really significant problem for Russia unfolding rapidly.”

    https://twitter.com/eliothiggins/status/1568216432072073217?s=46&t=fqdL0K9NxkSTGjHlnCTk_A

    A Russian army in danger of encirclement? Or Ukrainian overstretch?

    The fast moving tactics of the Ukranians are inspiring, especially after the stalemate of the last 3 months.

    As long as they have fuel and amunition they can easily pierce the Russian lines which have been stretched thin to provide additional support to Kherson and then wreak chaos in the supply lines behind the Russian forces. Individual units may find themselves in local difficulties but the effect on the Russian front line units will be devastating. What we need to see are the large scale surrender of units cut off and out of ammunition. At that point the Russian forces may well collapse.

    This isn't the end but it is starting to look like the beginning of the end.
    It's suspiciously like this,

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Battle_of_Kharkov#:~:text=The Second Battle of Kharkov or Operation Fredericus,on the Eastern Front during World War II.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 36,680

    TOPPING said:

    I am genuinely interested in why a particular activity not going ahead is appropriate (or it going ahead inappropriate).

    There is no appropriate, or inappropriate, either decision is fine.

    For many people the Queen was emotionally like a Grandmother. Our kids saw the news with us and said unprompted that they were sad the Queen died and that it reminded them of the death of [my] Nanna recently. Again this morning they were talking about it.

    What people do after a death is up to them, people react differently. Some people like to postpone things, others don't. The FA have made their choice, that's their responsibility and their right to do so. Other sports have made their choice, again that's their responsibility and their right.

    So long as nobody is mandating others can't do what they want to do, there's not an issue. If anyone wants to play football this weekend they can, it just won't be under the banner of the FA if they do.
    Yeah I get that but why is it a mark of respect or disrespect to do or not do something. What is the intrinsic respectness of it.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 105,060
    Cyclefree said:

    If there was one thing that typified the Queen's approach to pretty much everything it was that you carry on.

    Which is what the rest of us should be doing. Not all this cancellation nonsense. By all means pay tribute, have minutes' silences etc but there is no reason for everything to go into suspended animation. Those preparing the funeral are doing their job and will do it magnificently I expect. The rest of us can do ours, including the politicians.

    The energy bills aren't going to go away. We need to understand the plan announced yesterday and what it means for us all and how it is to be paid for. The Queen's death should not mean that the government avoids scrutiny or challenge. There are plenty of other issues which are not going to wait until the funeral or the coronation or whatever.

    Nothing will more undermine support for a monarchy than claims that the proper functioning of government including all the tough bits which the executive may not like are somehow disrespectful to a dead monarch, especially one who made service and duty her calling card.

    None of this stops people mourning or feeling sad or whatever. But often at a time of change or sadness it is the routines of daily life and the fact that you still have responsibilities to others which can provide structure and help, a scaffolding to stop grief overwhelming. That applies to people. And countries too.

    The funeral will be a day to stop and remember and honour. But we don't need to turn into a catatonic state between now and then or even afterwards. I hope we don't anyway.

    No and government and Parliament can still go on but the government cannot ignore its role in ensuring fitting tribute is paid to the Queen over the next 10 days and a good start is given to the new King at his coronation.

    Just Truss will have to work long hours to ensure she does that and implements her energy bills plan, continues to support Ukraine etc
  • CookieCookie Posts: 7,826
    darkage said:

    In other news, at least we seem to be getting a decent amount of rain (here in the south east at least) and have briefly at least moved on from the climate apocalypse on PB.

    Yes - though I've just checked on United Utilities' site and in the NW we're not only well down on average (and on last year) but reservoir levels have dropped in the past week. Which surprises me. But maybe it takes a while for rain to make its way from sky to ground to reservoir.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 30,170

    Cookie said:

    Apparently as a mark of respect Dave isn't showing any adverts.

    Not a patch on this.


    What will @Leon do?
  • CookieCookie Posts: 7,826
    Cookie said:

    darkage said:

    In other news, at least we seem to be getting a decent amount of rain (here in the south east at least) and have briefly at least moved on from the climate apocalypse on PB.

    Yes - though I've just checked on United Utilities' site and in the NW we're not only well down on average (and on last year) but reservoir levels have dropped in the past week. Which surprises me. But maybe it takes a while for rain to make its way from sky to ground to reservoir.
    https://www.unitedutilities.com/help-and-support/your-water-supply/your-reservoirs/reservoir-levels/
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 15,920
    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    I am genuinely interested in why a particular activity not going ahead is appropriate (or it going ahead inappropriate).

    There is no appropriate, or inappropriate, either decision is fine.

    For many people the Queen was emotionally like a Grandmother. Our kids saw the news with us and said unprompted that they were sad the Queen died and that it reminded them of the death of [my] Nanna recently. Again this morning they were talking about it.

    What people do after a death is up to them, people react differently. Some people like to postpone things, others don't. The FA have made their choice, that's their responsibility and their right to do so. Other sports have made their choice, again that's their responsibility and their right.

    So long as nobody is mandating others can't do what they want to do, there's not an issue. If anyone wants to play football this weekend they can, it just won't be under the banner of the FA if they do.
    Yeah I get that but why is it a mark of respect or disrespect to do or not do something. What is the intrinsic respectness of it.
    Respect for the Queen by congregating in tens of thousands at various places across the country, with the national anthem played and a minutes silence, or everyone stay at home typing on their phones?
  • CatManCatMan Posts: 1,811

    A lot of people commenting on the Queen's sense of humour with regards to the James Bond sketch or the Paddington Bear one, but we mustn't forget her good sport for her cameo appearance in the Naked Gun movie.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cWO7QAOnOJU

    It's disgusting the way they splash this stuff all over the newspapers! What is journalism coming to? You're laying on top of the queen with her legs wrapped around you. And they call that news.

    (When I was a kid and saw that movie, I genuinely thought at first it was the Queen and was impressed she'd done that cameo)

    Nice interview with her from The Guardian a few months ago:

    https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2022/may/27/experience-lookalike-for-50-years
  • LeonLeon Posts: 28,799
    edited September 9
    IanB2 said:

    Leon said:

    Apparently this is painted on the side of an apartment block in Ukraine


    If it is, it wasn't recent.
    Leon will fall for any old photoshopped rubbish on Twitter, so who knows?
    My guess is: probably real, but not recent

    This seems real as well. Ukrainian artillery shells this morning





    🇺🇦/🇬🇧 Українські артилеристи із вдячністю вшановують славетну лідерку великого народу / Ukrainian artillery men’s sincere gratitude and respect to the remarkable leader of a great nation“
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 6,648
    Perhaps the weirdest thing so far..., Trace Xmas, channel 359 who started playing xmas music Sept 1 have amended the playlist to only play serious, melodious xmas music, no Slade or Wizzard etc
  • DavidL said:

    darkage said:

    DavidL said:

    Leon said:

    The Ukrainian front is changing at breakneck speed


    “Pro-Russian mapmakers tracking the fighting around Kharkiv are showing a really significant problem for Russia unfolding rapidly.”

    https://twitter.com/eliothiggins/status/1568216432072073217?s=46&t=fqdL0K9NxkSTGjHlnCTk_A

    A Russian army in danger of encirclement? Or Ukrainian overstretch?

    The fast moving tactics of the Ukranians are inspiring, especially after the stalemate of the last 3 months.

    As long as they have fuel and amunition they can easily pierce the Russian lines which have been stretched thin to provide additional support to Kherson and then wreak chaos in the supply lines behind the Russian forces. Individual units may find themselves in local difficulties but the effect on the Russian front line units will be devastating. What we need to see are the large scale surrender of units cut off and out of ammunition. At that point the Russian forces may well collapse.

    This isn't the end but it is starting to look like the beginning of the end.
    If that is true, then it seems to me like a moment of maximum danger with regard to Putin. How will he take such a setback?
    I was saying this a week or so ago in the context of Kherson (which is starting to look like a rather brilliant feint). If Russia suffers a real and undeniable set back involving thousands of men I think Putin will be in serious danger of literal defenestration but that will be a moment of genuine peril for the world, not just Russia. I do not think that the risks of a comprehensive defeat for Russia, much though I wish for it, are being taken nearly seriously enough. The chances of a nuclear war are not insignificant.
    If the comment posted earlier about one of the Generals telling him directly to his face he has lost is true, then he won't get the chance to order a nuclear attack. His Command are likely to disobey knowing the consequences.

    Apparently, the Russian Telegram channels are an absolute sh1tstorm at the moment, with open criticisms both of the commanders but also of the propaganda that everything is fine.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 30,170
    Leon said:

    IanB2 said:

    Leon said:

    Apparently this is painted on the side of an apartment block in Ukraine


    If it is, it wasn't recent.
    Leon will fall for any old photoshopped rubbish on Twitter, so who knows?
    My guess is: probably real, but not recent

    This seems real as well. Ukrainian artillery shells this morning





    The thing with the Crimea Bell is epic trolling, though.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 36,680
    edited September 9

    pm215 said:


    What people do after a death is up to them, people react differently. Some people like to postpone things, others don't. The FA have made their choice, that's their responsibility and their right to do so. Other sports have made their choice, again that's their responsibility and their right.

    For individuals I am in full agreement. I think where I perhaps part company from you is when it comes to large organisations and companies, where to me at least wide-ranging cancellations/postponements/royal-related-tv-programming-for-days has a whiff of being "because we think people will criticise" rather than being a genuine reaction driven by how the decision-makers themselves truly feel one way or the other. I have no desire to critique *peoples*' reactions, but I do think feedback to large *organisations* can be warranted if they seem to be going overboard (or, for that matter, underboard) -- because I think they are fundamentally trying to do "what they think the general public would want" rather than only acting on their personal feelings, and therefore feedback about what the public in fact do or don't want is useful to them.
    Wouldn't it be worse if they were only doing it based on their own personal views?

    I suspect that the idea of the country carrying on as normal as if nothing had happened other than an old lady dying - for all it might please the republicans - would rightly upset a huge number of people.

    For the last 30 years I have run two large events/trade shows a year which have several thousand people attending them. We have always had a reserve of at least one event's worth of costs in place in case of an unforeseen event which prevents us going ahead. We could imagine many scenarios that might cause this to happen but the most obvious one was the Queen dying. We never imagined that we would go ahead with an event if the Queen had died just a few days before.
    Bizarre. People can walk and talk and think and feel respect and inspect sales catalogues at the same time.

    Cancelling a trade show out of respect for HMQ is like the Met Office restricting its output to, er, weather forecasts.

    Absolutely of no consequence or import whatsoever.

    And not wanting to play that card but I imagine I am one of the few people on here who swore an effing oath to HMQ (edit: and worked for her husband ffs). Albeit they paid me to do so (£10 at the time).
  • Alphabet_SoupAlphabet_Soup Posts: 1,844

    MISTY said:

    Carnyx said:

    MISTY said:

    MISTY said:

    HYUFD said:

    Truss I thought handled the events of yesterday well. They obviously will dominate buy she combined paying tribute to our lost Queen with welcoming our new King.

    Luckily for her she also got her plans for an energy bill cap in before the news broke

    Plus the restart of fracking.

    I think the tories are going to need to be very careful about how they sell that one though.

    British voters these days want cheap gas without fracking near them, just as they want great public services with low taxes, lots of new property but no development where they live, low government debt but lots of spending, and free speech but censorship of opinions they disagree with.

    I suspect the fracking will quietly disappear...
    Protecting everybody from the vagaries of the gas market seems odd for a government that wants fracking, to be sure.

    You mean, encouraging p[eople to invest in dodgy and futile projects?
    Private companies drilling for oil and gas don't know what they are doing?

    Surprising then, that they are making such vast sums of money that some want windfall taxes on those profits.



    They aren't, at least not in the UK. Did you never notice that not one of the O&G companies that does North Sea drilling, nor even conventional O&G drilling onshore, has shown any interest in fracking in the UK? It is all being done by companies you had never heard of a few years ago. Indeed most of them didn't even exist 15 years ago.

    The regular O&G companies which are making all that money have more sense than to invest in fracking.
    I'm guessing fracking is to geology what Springtime for Hitler was to musical entertainment. As long as it loses money no-one is too surprised and the producers (sorry, The Producers) clean up. It's when profits are expected that investors get restive.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 36,680
    Carnyx said:

    pm215 said:


    What people do after a death is up to them, people react differently. Some people like to postpone things, others don't. The FA have made their choice, that's their responsibility and their right to do so. Other sports have made their choice, again that's their responsibility and their right.

    For individuals I am in full agreement. I think where I perhaps part company from you is when it comes to large organisations and companies, where to me at least wide-ranging cancellations/postponements/royal-related-tv-programming-for-days has a whiff of being "because we think people will criticise" rather than being a genuine reaction driven by how the decision-makers themselves truly feel one way or the other. I have no desire to critique *peoples*' reactions, but I do think feedback to large *organisations* can be warranted if they seem to be going overboard (or, for that matter, underboard) -- because I think they are fundamentally trying to do "what they think the general public would want" rather than only acting on their personal feelings, and therefore feedback about what the public in fact do or don't want is useful to them.
    Wouldn't it be worse if they were only doing it based on their own personal views?

    I suspect that the idea of the country carrying on as normal as if nothing had happened other than an old lady dying - for all it might please the republicans - would rightly upset a huge number of people.

    For the last 30 years I have run two large events/trade shows a year which have several thousand people attending them. We have always had a reserve of at least one event's worth of costs in place in case of an unforeseen event which prevents us going ahead. We could imagine many scenarios that might cause this to happen but the most obvious one was the Queen dying. We never imagined that we would go ahead with an event if the Queen had died just a few days before.
    Some of the discussions today have been very reminiscent of the arguments over the Victorian Sunday - why should the children/working classes/etc not be allowed to have enjoyment on their only day off, etc. etc. just to keep the spoilsports and moral panickers happy.

    On the other hand, sovereigns don't die every week, and, like spelling, grammar and punctuation, it's arguably better to err on the more conservative and old-fashioned side.

    Again, why? What is the intrinsic "rightness" of not playing hockey tomorrow if you are an 11-yr old girl.
  • MISTYMISTY Posts: 1,594

    Leon said:

    IanB2 said:

    Leon said:

    Apparently this is painted on the side of an apartment block in Ukraine


    If it is, it wasn't recent.
    Leon will fall for any old photoshopped rubbish on Twitter, so who knows?
    My guess is: probably real, but not recent

    This seems real as well. Ukrainian artillery shells this morning





    The thing with the Crimea Bell is epic trolling, though.
    Surely, epic TOLLING...?'
  • Leon said:

    IanB2 said:

    Leon said:

    Apparently this is painted on the side of an apartment block in Ukraine


    If it is, it wasn't recent.
    Leon will fall for any old photoshopped rubbish on Twitter, so who knows?
    My guess is: probably real, but not recent

    This seems real as well. Ukrainian artillery shells this morning





    🇺🇦/🇬🇧 Українські артилеристи із вдячністю вшановують славетну лідерку великого народу / Ukrainian artillery men’s sincere gratitude and respect to the remarkable leader of a great nation“
    Doing their own 96 Gun Salute.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 36,680
    FUCCCCCCCCCCCCCK they have cancelled Shields/Marshall.

    Jesus H Christ.
  • DynamoDynamo Posts: 651
    edited September 9
    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Of course after the funeral we then have King Charles' coronation to prepare for which will not be for several months.

    Only after that will normal politics fully return

    As if the country can wait that long. Your lot already wasted the summer, now you want to waste the autumn?
    The most important role of the Tory party is to support the Crown and its transition between monarchs. In any case Truss has already announced her cost of living price cap
    "The most important role of the Tory party is to support the Crown and its transition between monarchs."

    Nonsense. Its most important role is to retain power and enrich its members and donors.
    But that's what the monarchy is there for.

    Achievement of Nye Bevan's aim of "the complete political extinction of the Tory Party" would have to mean no more monarchy, because otherwise they'd come back.

    Church of England - Tory party at prayer.
    Foxhunting - Tory party on horseback.
    Private schools - Tory party in the nursery. (Hat tip to David Cornwell).
    Monarchy - Tory party playing dressup, and performing ritual magic to feed their chief god, the god of social hierarchy.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 7,826
    DavidL said:

    darkage said:

    DavidL said:

    Leon said:

    The Ukrainian front is changing at breakneck speed


    “Pro-Russian mapmakers tracking the fighting around Kharkiv are showing a really significant problem for Russia unfolding rapidly.”

    https://twitter.com/eliothiggins/status/1568216432072073217?s=46&t=fqdL0K9NxkSTGjHlnCTk_A

    A Russian army in danger of encirclement? Or Ukrainian overstretch?

    The fast moving tactics of the Ukranians are inspiring, especially after the stalemate of the last 3 months.

    As long as they have fuel and amunition they can easily pierce the Russian lines which have been stretched thin to provide additional support to Kherson and then wreak chaos in the supply lines behind the Russian forces. Individual units may find themselves in local difficulties but the effect on the Russian front line units will be devastating. What we need to see are the large scale surrender of units cut off and out of ammunition. At that point the Russian forces may well collapse.

    This isn't the end but it is starting to look like the beginning of the end.
    If that is true, then it seems to me like a moment of maximum danger with regard to Putin. How will he take such a setback?
    I was saying this a week or so ago in the context of Kherson (which is starting to look like a rather brilliant feint). If Russia suffers a real and undeniable set back involving thousands of men I think Putin will be in serious danger of literal defenestration but that will be a moment of genuine peril for the world, not just Russia. I do not think that the risks of a comprehensive defeat for Russia, much though I wish for it, are being taken nearly seriously enough. The chances of a nuclear war are not insignificant.
    It's also looling worryingly like the easy bit.
    Say Ukraine manages to push the Russian Army out of Ukraine. Even, perhaps, out of Crimea. What then? We surely can't just put the clock back and start buying Russian gas again? How do we ensure Russia doesn't just tool up and come back again?
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 28,024
    TOPPING said:

    Carnyx said:

    pm215 said:


    What people do after a death is up to them, people react differently. Some people like to postpone things, others don't. The FA have made their choice, that's their responsibility and their right to do so. Other sports have made their choice, again that's their responsibility and their right.

    For individuals I am in full agreement. I think where I perhaps part company from you is when it comes to large organisations and companies, where to me at least wide-ranging cancellations/postponements/royal-related-tv-programming-for-days has a whiff of being "because we think people will criticise" rather than being a genuine reaction driven by how the decision-makers themselves truly feel one way or the other. I have no desire to critique *peoples*' reactions, but I do think feedback to large *organisations* can be warranted if they seem to be going overboard (or, for that matter, underboard) -- because I think they are fundamentally trying to do "what they think the general public would want" rather than only acting on their personal feelings, and therefore feedback about what the public in fact do or don't want is useful to them.
    Wouldn't it be worse if they were only doing it based on their own personal views?

    I suspect that the idea of the country carrying on as normal as if nothing had happened other than an old lady dying - for all it might please the republicans - would rightly upset a huge number of people.

    For the last 30 years I have run two large events/trade shows a year which have several thousand people attending them. We have always had a reserve of at least one event's worth of costs in place in case of an unforeseen event which prevents us going ahead. We could imagine many scenarios that might cause this to happen but the most obvious one was the Queen dying. We never imagined that we would go ahead with an event if the Queen had died just a few days before.
    Some of the discussions today have been very reminiscent of the arguments over the Victorian Sunday - why should the children/working classes/etc not be allowed to have enjoyment on their only day off, etc. etc. just to keep the spoilsports and moral panickers happy.

    On the other hand, sovereigns don't die every week, and, like spelling, grammar and punctuation, it's arguably better to err on the more conservative and old-fashioned side.

    Again, why? What is the intrinsic "rightness" of not playing hockey tomorrow if you are an 11-yr old girl.
    That is where it gets too far, I agree, even if it's on the beating the bounds principle (of punishment to make them remember: I'm not sure that that isn't what is intended by some).

    We don't stop walking the dog because of HMtQ.

    And most certainly I think the cancel culture is quite wrong on things like 11+ exams.
  • darkagedarkage Posts: 3,203
    DavidL said:

    darkage said:

    DavidL said:

    Leon said:

    The Ukrainian front is changing at breakneck speed


    “Pro-Russian mapmakers tracking the fighting around Kharkiv are showing a really significant problem for Russia unfolding rapidly.”

    https://twitter.com/eliothiggins/status/1568216432072073217?s=46&t=fqdL0K9NxkSTGjHlnCTk_A

    A Russian army in danger of encirclement? Or Ukrainian overstretch?

    The fast moving tactics of the Ukranians are inspiring, especially after the stalemate of the last 3 months.

    As long as they have fuel and amunition they can easily pierce the Russian lines which have been stretched thin to provide additional support to Kherson and then wreak chaos in the supply lines behind the Russian forces. Individual units may find themselves in local difficulties but the effect on the Russian front line units will be devastating. What we need to see are the large scale surrender of units cut off and out of ammunition. At that point the Russian forces may well collapse.

    This isn't the end but it is starting to look like the beginning of the end.
    If that is true, then it seems to me like a moment of maximum danger with regard to Putin. How will he take such a setback?
    I was saying this a week or so ago in the context of Kherson (which is starting to look like a rather brilliant feint). If Russia suffers a real and undeniable set back involving thousands of men I think Putin will be in serious danger of literal defenestration but that will be a moment of genuine peril for the world, not just Russia. I do not think that the risks of a comprehensive defeat for Russia, much though I wish for it, are being taken nearly seriously enough. The chances of a nuclear war are not insignificant.
    Yeah I was making a similar point. It could be summarised as 'careful what you wish for'.
    What concerns me is that there is the widespread promotion of and acceptance of the idea that we need to 'beat back Putin' like we are just teaching a lesson to some kind of playground bully. Even though the story works on one level, it is a highly superficial level.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 15,920
    Cyclefree said:

    If there was one thing that typified the Queen's approach to pretty much everything it was that you carry on.

    Which is what the rest of us should be doing. Not all this cancellation nonsense. By all means pay tribute, have minutes' silences etc but there is no reason for everything to go into suspended animation. Those preparing the funeral are doing their job and will do it magnificently I expect. The rest of us can do ours, including the politicians.

    The energy bills aren't going to go away. We need to understand the plan announced yesterday and what it means for us all and how it is to be paid for. The Queen's death should not mean that the government avoids scrutiny or challenge. There are plenty of other issues which are not going to wait until the funeral or the coronation or whatever.

    Nothing will more undermine support for a monarchy than claims that the proper functioning of government including all the tough bits which the executive may not like are somehow disrespectful to a dead monarch, especially one who made service and duty her calling card.

    None of this stops people mourning or feeling sad or whatever. But often at a time of change or sadness it is the routines of daily life and the fact that you still have responsibilities to others which can provide structure and help, a scaffolding to stop grief overwhelming. That applies to people. And countries too.

    The funeral will be a day to stop and remember and honour. But we don't need to turn into a catatonic state between now and then or even afterwards. I hope we don't anyway.

    Spot on. Parliament has been on hold for 3 months for a leadership election, it sounds like that will be extended further. A few days later after they return they will stop work for another month for party conferences! It is all ridiculous that so little work can get done when we are in an economic crisis and proxy war.

    It is the opposite of the Queens stoic and hard working approach, adjusting to so many different scenarios through her reign, but all with a work ethic and a determination to keep calm and carry on.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 35,597
    Leon said:

    IanB2 said:

    Leon said:

    Apparently this is painted on the side of an apartment block in Ukraine


    If it is, it wasn't recent.
    Leon will fall for any old photoshopped rubbish on Twitter, so who knows?
    My guess is: probably real, but not recent

    This seems real as well. Ukrainian artillery shells this morning





    🇺🇦/🇬🇧 Українські артилеристи із вдячністю вшановують славетну лідерку великого народу / Ukrainian artillery men’s sincere gratitude and respect to the remarkable leader of a great nation“
    Memoralising a peaceful death at the end of a long life with an artillery bombardment seems a rather curious thing.
  • bigglesbiggles Posts: 2,639

    DavidL said:

    darkage said:

    DavidL said:

    Leon said:

    The Ukrainian front is changing at breakneck speed


    “Pro-Russian mapmakers tracking the fighting around Kharkiv are showing a really significant problem for Russia unfolding rapidly.”

    https://twitter.com/eliothiggins/status/1568216432072073217?s=46&t=fqdL0K9NxkSTGjHlnCTk_A

    A Russian army in danger of encirclement? Or Ukrainian overstretch?

    The fast moving tactics of the Ukranians are inspiring, especially after the stalemate of the last 3 months.

    As long as they have fuel and amunition they can easily pierce the Russian lines which have been stretched thin to provide additional support to Kherson and then wreak chaos in the supply lines behind the Russian forces. Individual units may find themselves in local difficulties but the effect on the Russian front line units will be devastating. What we need to see are the large scale surrender of units cut off and out of ammunition. At that point the Russian forces may well collapse.

    This isn't the end but it is starting to look like the beginning of the end.
    If that is true, then it seems to me like a moment of maximum danger with regard to Putin. How will he take such a setback?
    I was saying this a week or so ago in the context of Kherson (which is starting to look like a rather brilliant feint). If Russia suffers a real and undeniable set back involving thousands of men I think Putin will be in serious danger of literal defenestration but that will be a moment of genuine peril for the world, not just Russia. I do not think that the risks of a comprehensive defeat for Russia, much though I wish for it, are being taken nearly seriously enough. The chances of a nuclear war are not insignificant.
    If the comment posted earlier about one of the Generals telling him directly to his face he has lost is true, then he won't get the chance to order a nuclear attack. His Command are likely to disobey knowing the consequences.

    Apparently, the Russian Telegram channels are an absolute sh1tstorm at the moment, with open criticisms both of the commanders but also of the propaganda that everything is fine.
    Presumably the Ukrainians are backed by western intelligence, so the fact they are seemingly yet to stop and consolidate does imply good things.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 45,293

    DavidL said:

    Leon said:

    The Ukrainian front is changing at breakneck speed


    “Pro-Russian mapmakers tracking the fighting around Kharkiv are showing a really significant problem for Russia unfolding rapidly.”

    https://twitter.com/eliothiggins/status/1568216432072073217?s=46&t=fqdL0K9NxkSTGjHlnCTk_A

    A Russian army in danger of encirclement? Or Ukrainian overstretch?

    The fast moving tactics of the Ukranians are inspiring, especially after the stalemate of the last 3 months.

    As long as they have fuel and amunition they can easily pierce the Russian lines which have been stretched thin to provide additional support to Kherson and then wreak chaos in the supply lines behind the Russian forces. Individual units may find themselves in local difficulties but the effect on the Russian front line units will be devastating. What we need to see are the large scale surrender of units cut off and out of ammunition. At that point the Russian forces may well collapse.

    This isn't the end but it is starting to look like the beginning of the end.
    It's suspiciously like this,

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Battle_of_Kharkov#:~:text=The Second Battle of Kharkov or Operation Fredericus,on the Eastern Front during World War II.
    I saw a comment on a pro Russia site stating that they had been reading their Suvarov.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Suvorov
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 30,170

    MISTY said:

    Carnyx said:

    MISTY said:

    MISTY said:

    HYUFD said:

    Truss I thought handled the events of yesterday well. They obviously will dominate buy she combined paying tribute to our lost Queen with welcoming our new King.

    Luckily for her she also got her plans for an energy bill cap in before the news broke

    Plus the restart of fracking.

    I think the tories are going to need to be very careful about how they sell that one though.

    British voters these days want cheap gas without fracking near them, just as they want great public services with low taxes, lots of new property but no development where they live, low government debt but lots of spending, and free speech but censorship of opinions they disagree with.

    I suspect the fracking will quietly disappear...
    Protecting everybody from the vagaries of the gas market seems odd for a government that wants fracking, to be sure.

    You mean, encouraging p[eople to invest in dodgy and futile projects?
    Private companies drilling for oil and gas don't know what they are doing?

    Surprising then, that they are making such vast sums of money that some want windfall taxes on those profits.



    They aren't, at least not in the UK. Did you never notice that not one of the O&G companies that does North Sea drilling, nor even conventional O&G drilling onshore, has shown any interest in fracking in the UK? It is all being done by companies you had never heard of a few years ago. Indeed most of them didn't even exist 15 years ago.

    The regular O&G companies which are making all that money have more sense than to invest in fracking.
    I'm guessing fracking is to geology what Springtime for Hitler was to musical entertainment. As long as it loses money no-one is too surprised and the producers (sorry, The Producers) clean up. It's when profits are expected that investors get restive.
    No.

    To start with fracking is happening in the UK. Right now.

    The fracking we are all referring to is a sub set of fracking.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydraulic_fracturing_in_the_United_Kingdom#Onshore

    The suspicion is that the people pushing fracking are the equipment operators etc who actually will do the work. Who will make a profit on doing the work on behalf of the company running the site(s).....
  • boulayboulay Posts: 1,819

    Cookie said:

    Apparently as a mark of respect Dave isn't showing any adverts.

    Not a patch on this.


    What will @Leon do?
    I imagine, like Dixie, he will be going for a respectful/disrespectful afternoon knapp.

  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 45,293
    Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    IanB2 said:

    Leon said:

    Apparently this is painted on the side of an apartment block in Ukraine


    If it is, it wasn't recent.
    Leon will fall for any old photoshopped rubbish on Twitter, so who knows?
    My guess is: probably real, but not recent

    This seems real as well. Ukrainian artillery shells this morning





    🇺🇦/🇬🇧 Українські артилеристи із вдячністю вшановують славетну лідерку великого народу / Ukrainian artillery men’s sincere gratitude and respect to the remarkable leader of a great nation“
    Memoralising a peaceful death at the end of a long life with an artillery bombardment seems a rather curious thing.
    We had 96 gun salutes in the Parks today.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 28,799
    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    I am genuinely interested in why a particular activity not going ahead is appropriate (or it going ahead inappropriate).

    There is no appropriate, or inappropriate, either decision is fine.

    For many people the Queen was emotionally like a Grandmother. Our kids saw the news with us and said unprompted that they were sad the Queen died and that it reminded them of the death of [my] Nanna recently. Again this morning they were talking about it.

    What people do after a death is up to them, people react differently. Some people like to postpone things, others don't. The FA have made their choice, that's their responsibility and their right to do so. Other sports have made their choice, again that's their responsibility and their right.

    So long as nobody is mandating others can't do what they want to do, there's not an issue. If anyone wants to play football this weekend they can, it just won't be under the banner of the FA if they do.
    Yeah I get that but why is it a mark of respect or disrespect to do or not do something. What is the intrinsic respectness of it.
    There is an intrinsic respectness tho. If a clown, poodle and penis puppet festival was originally planned for the Mall this afternoon, do you think it should go ahead if they can find enough participants?

    No. Obviously not. So then you agree: some respect and decorum is required, observed by all

    It’s not going to be fun, either. A very important person has died. Possibly the most famous person in the world: and a person respected by tens of millions

    We are in for a period of compulsory dull mourning. I suggest that if we didn’t do this we would feel the negative psychological after effects for decades

    Mum is dead. We honour her by being bored, listless and sad for a while. But if we did coke and went to the Maldives we’d feel worse later on
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 6,648

    Cyclefree said:

    If there was one thing that typified the Queen's approach to pretty much everything it was that you carry on.

    Which is what the rest of us should be doing. Not all this cancellation nonsense. By all means pay tribute, have minutes' silences etc but there is no reason for everything to go into suspended animation. Those preparing the funeral are doing their job and will do it magnificently I expect. The rest of us can do ours, including the politicians.

    The energy bills aren't going to go away. We need to understand the plan announced yesterday and what it means for us all and how it is to be paid for. The Queen's death should not mean that the government avoids scrutiny or challenge. There are plenty of other issues which are not going to wait until the funeral or the coronation or whatever.

    Nothing will more undermine support for a monarchy than claims that the proper functioning of government including all the tough bits which the executive may not like are somehow disrespectful to a dead monarch, especially one who made service and duty her calling card.

    None of this stops people mourning or feeling sad or whatever. But often at a time of change or sadness it is the routines of daily life and the fact that you still have responsibilities to others which can provide structure and help, a scaffolding to stop grief overwhelming. That applies to people. And countries too.

    The funeral will be a day to stop and remember and honour. But we don't need to turn into a catatonic state between now and then or even afterwards. I hope we don't anyway.

    Spot on. Parliament has been on hold for 3 months for a leadership election, it sounds like that will be extended further. A few days later after they return they will stop work for another month for party conferences! It is all ridiculous that so little work can get done when we are in an economic crisis and proxy war.

    It is the opposite of the Queens stoic and hard working approach, adjusting to so many different scenarios through her reign, but all with a work ethic and a determination to keep calm and carry on.
    Truss should really, at an appropriate moment, announce cancellation of the conference recess
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 41,886
    Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    IanB2 said:

    Leon said:

    Apparently this is painted on the side of an apartment block in Ukraine


    If it is, it wasn't recent.
    Leon will fall for any old photoshopped rubbish on Twitter, so who knows?
    My guess is: probably real, but not recent

    This seems real as well. Ukrainian artillery shells this morning





    🇺🇦/🇬🇧 Українські артилеристи із вдячністю вшановують славетну лідерку великого народу / Ukrainian artillery men’s sincere gratitude and respect to the remarkable leader of a great nation“
    Memoralising a peaceful death at the end of a long life with an artillery bombardment seems a rather curious thing.
    All part of military tradition, to write messages to the enemy on ordnance. Thankfully, it looks as if His Majesty’s armed forces managed to stick to the blank cartridges in their guns this afternoon.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 32,033
    Cookie said:

    DavidL said:

    darkage said:

    DavidL said:

    Leon said:

    The Ukrainian front is changing at breakneck speed


    “Pro-Russian mapmakers tracking the fighting around Kharkiv are showing a really significant problem for Russia unfolding rapidly.”

    https://twitter.com/eliothiggins/status/1568216432072073217?s=46&t=fqdL0K9NxkSTGjHlnCTk_A

    A Russian army in danger of encirclement? Or Ukrainian overstretch?

    The fast moving tactics of the Ukranians are inspiring, especially after the stalemate of the last 3 months.

    As long as they have fuel and amunition they can easily pierce the Russian lines which have been stretched thin to provide additional support to Kherson and then wreak chaos in the supply lines behind the Russian forces. Individual units may find themselves in local difficulties but the effect on the Russian front line units will be devastating. What we need to see are the large scale surrender of units cut off and out of ammunition. At that point the Russian forces may well collapse.

    This isn't the end but it is starting to look like the beginning of the end.
    If that is true, then it seems to me like a moment of maximum danger with regard to Putin. How will he take such a setback?
    I was saying this a week or so ago in the context of Kherson (which is starting to look like a rather brilliant feint). If Russia suffers a real and undeniable set back involving thousands of men I think Putin will be in serious danger of literal defenestration but that will be a moment of genuine peril for the world, not just Russia. I do not think that the risks of a comprehensive defeat for Russia, much though I wish for it, are being taken nearly seriously enough. The chances of a nuclear war are not insignificant.
    It's also looling worryingly like the easy bit.
    Say Ukraine manages to push the Russian Army out of Ukraine. Even, perhaps, out of Crimea. What then? We surely can't just put the clock back and start buying Russian gas again? How do we ensure Russia doesn't just tool up and come back again?
    We (the west) cannot *rely* on Russian gas - and that's the big mistake Germany and others made. Their belief was that the purchase of the gas would keep Russia from doing anything stoopid - and kept on believing that after the Crimea and Donbass invasions and Salisbury.

    Russian oil and gas should just be part of he market - but it needs to be a broad market, not a narrow one. Even if that security costs more.

    It's still early days in this offensive - and it could still easily go pear-shaped for Ukraine. But only if Russia has some well-trained reserves sitting about somewhere twiddling their washing machines' knobs, or Ukraine make some almighty tactical and strategic blunders.
  • GhedebravGhedebrav Posts: 625
    Cookie said:

    DavidL said:

    darkage said:

    DavidL said:

    Leon said:

    The Ukrainian front is changing at breakneck speed


    “Pro-Russian mapmakers tracking the fighting around Kharkiv are showing a really significant problem for Russia unfolding rapidly.”

    https://twitter.com/eliothiggins/status/1568216432072073217?s=46&t=fqdL0K9NxkSTGjHlnCTk_A

    A Russian army in danger of encirclement? Or Ukrainian overstretch?

    The fast moving tactics of the Ukranians are inspiring, especially after the stalemate of the last 3 months.

    As long as they have fuel and amunition they can easily pierce the Russian lines which have been stretched thin to provide additional support to Kherson and then wreak chaos in the supply lines behind the Russian forces. Individual units may find themselves in local difficulties but the effect on the Russian front line units will be devastating. What we need to see are the large scale surrender of units cut off and out of ammunition. At that point the Russian forces may well collapse.

    This isn't the end but it is starting to look like the beginning of the end.
    If that is true, then it seems to me like a moment of maximum danger with regard to Putin. How will he take such a setback?
    I was saying this a week or so ago in the context of Kherson (which is starting to look like a rather brilliant feint). If Russia suffers a real and undeniable set back involving thousands of men I think Putin will be in serious danger of literal defenestration but that will be a moment of genuine peril for the world, not just Russia. I do not think that the risks of a comprehensive defeat for Russia, much though I wish for it, are being taken nearly seriously enough. The chances of a nuclear war are not insignificant.
    It's also looling worryingly like the easy bit.
    Say Ukraine manages to push the Russian Army out of Ukraine. Even, perhaps, out of Crimea. What then? We surely can't just put the clock back and start buying Russian gas again? How do we ensure Russia doesn't just tool up and come back again?
    It'll take a new leader (in Russia, I mean)
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 36,680
    Leon said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    I am genuinely interested in why a particular activity not going ahead is appropriate (or it going ahead inappropriate).

    There is no appropriate, or inappropriate, either decision is fine.

    For many people the Queen was emotionally like a Grandmother. Our kids saw the news with us and said unprompted that they were sad the Queen died and that it reminded them of the death of [my] Nanna recently. Again this morning they were talking about it.

    What people do after a death is up to them, people react differently. Some people like to postpone things, others don't. The FA have made their choice, that's their responsibility and their right to do so. Other sports have made their choice, again that's their responsibility and their right.

    So long as nobody is mandating others can't do what they want to do, there's not an issue. If anyone wants to play football this weekend they can, it just won't be under the banner of the FA if they do.
    Yeah I get that but why is it a mark of respect or disrespect to do or not do something. What is the intrinsic respectness of it.
    There is an intrinsic respectness tho. If a clown, poodle and penis puppet festival was originally planned for the Mall this afternoon, do you think it should go ahead if they can find enough participants?

    No. Obviously not. So then you agree: some respect and decorum is required, observed by all

    It’s not going to be fun, either. A very important person has died. Possibly the most famous person in the world: and a person respected by tens of millions

    We are in for a period of compulsory dull mourning. I suggest that if we didn’t do this we would feel the negative psychological after effects for decades

    Mum is dead. We honour her by being bored, listless and sad for a while. But if we did coke and went to the Maldives we’d feel worse later on
    Bring on the clown, poodle and penis puppets, say I.

    What about those puppets detracts in any way from the feeling of sadness or respect or sense of loss that people may feel.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 105,060
    edited September 9
    Dynamo said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Of course after the funeral we then have King Charles' coronation to prepare for which will not be for several months.

    Only after that will normal politics fully return

    As if the country can wait that long. Your lot already wasted the summer, now you want to waste the autumn?
    The most important role of the Tory party is to support the Crown and its transition between monarchs. In any case Truss has already announced her cost of living price cap
    "The most important role of the Tory party is to support the Crown and its transition between monarchs."

    Nonsense. Its most important role is to retain power and enrich its members and donors.
    But that's what the monarchy is there for.

    Achievement of Nye Bevan's aim of "the complete political extinction of the Tory Party" would have to mean no more monarchy, because otherwise they'd come back.

    Church of England - Tory party at prayer.
    Foxhunting - Tory party on horseback.
    Private schools - Tory party in the nursery. (Hat tip to David Cornwell).
    Monarchy - Tory party playing dressup, and performing ritual magic to feed their chief god, the god of social hierarchy.
    Attlee supported constitutional monarchy as he thought it was most likely to lead to social democracy like Scandinavia unlike the ultra capitalist US Republic. Even Marxist Hobsbawm came round to the Queen before he died.

    In the US of course there is no Tory conservatism as here, Australia, New Zealand or Canada. Instead the right is made up just of mainly ultra capitalist economic libertarians and evangelical social conservatives

  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 10,520
    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    The Ukrainian front is changing at breakneck speed


    “Pro-Russian mapmakers tracking the fighting around Kharkiv are showing a really significant problem for Russia unfolding rapidly.”

    https://twitter.com/eliothiggins/status/1568216432072073217?s=46&t=fqdL0K9NxkSTGjHlnCTk_A

    A Russian army in danger of encirclement? Or Ukrainian overstretch?

    The Ukrainians obviously have to be very careful.

    However, they are probably several pointers to say it's not overstretch. First, they are likely to be receiving top-notch intelligence from allies (plus their own partisan networks behind the lines). Second, it's clear Russia had cleared out most of its better forces from the area in the belief it was a "quiet" front. Third, to be overstretched implies there is a risk of a credible counterattack. Nothing from what we are seeing at the moment suggests the Russians are capable of that.

    Personally, I think we are looking a plain old collapse of the front.
    If it is a collapse of the front - then what? Excuse my strategic ignorance, but what could that imply? Ukraine advancing right to the border? Mass capture of troops?
    The location of the collapse of this front implies that the Russian forces around Izyum, which have been attempting to advance to Sloviansk, would be cut off from their supply routes and at risk of being encircled.

    Izyum was the first gain made by Russia in the east after withdrawing from the north around Kyiv. For them to lose it now, and all the troops there, would then have further implications for the entire front line across the Donbas.

    It's not clear where a new front line could be established. I didn't expect the Ukrainians to make it to Kupyiansk. At some point we would expect the Ukrainian advance to run out of reserves and impetus and need to pause before they could move again, but the situation looks pretty dire for the Russian Army now. The effect on morale will be horrendous. No soldier wants to die, but dying in a lost cause feels particularly futile to most, and so the willingness to fight may evaporate.
  • bigglesbiggles Posts: 2,639
    edited September 9
    Cookie said:

    DavidL said:

    darkage said:

    DavidL said:

    Leon said:

    The Ukrainian front is changing at breakneck speed


    “Pro-Russian mapmakers tracking the fighting around Kharkiv are showing a really significant problem for Russia unfolding rapidly.”

    https://twitter.com/eliothiggins/status/1568216432072073217?s=46&t=fqdL0K9NxkSTGjHlnCTk_A

    A Russian army in danger of encirclement? Or Ukrainian overstretch?

    The fast moving tactics of the Ukranians are inspiring, especially after the stalemate of the last 3 months.

    As long as they have fuel and amunition they can easily pierce the Russian lines which have been stretched thin to provide additional support to Kherson and then wreak chaos in the supply lines behind the Russian forces. Individual units may find themselves in local difficulties but the effect on the Russian front line units will be devastating. What we need to see are the large scale surrender of units cut off and out of ammunition. At that point the Russian forces may well collapse.

    This isn't the end but it is starting to look like the beginning of the end.
    If that is true, then it seems to me like a moment of maximum danger with regard to Putin. How will he take such a setback?
    I was saying this a week or so ago in the context of Kherson (which is starting to look like a rather brilliant feint). If Russia suffers a real and undeniable set back involving thousands of men I think Putin will be in serious danger of literal defenestration but that will be a moment of genuine peril for the world, not just Russia. I do not think that the risks of a comprehensive defeat for Russia, much though I wish for it, are being taken nearly seriously enough. The chances of a nuclear war are not insignificant.
    It's also looling worryingly like the easy bit.
    Say Ukraine manages to push the Russian Army out of Ukraine. Even, perhaps, out of Crimea. What then? We surely can't just put the clock back and start buying Russian gas again? How do we ensure Russia doesn't just tool up and come back again?
    This is a good strategic question. We’ve all now made arrangements to live without Russian guess, and made some choices around future energy sources. Post-invasion, if the Russians withdraw, one imagines their gas will be available in the broader international market and prices brought down, but it won’t be business as usual. That’s not the most efficient way to sell their gas and their influence over the EU via energy is now gone. Surely there’s a massive, un-fillable, gap in the Russian economy now, even if direct sanctions ease?

    Add in military defeat and I agree, that’s not exactly fertile ground for democracy to spring to life in Russia.

  • CookieCookie Posts: 7,826
    Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    IanB2 said:

    Leon said:

    Apparently this is painted on the side of an apartment block in Ukraine


    If it is, it wasn't recent.
    Leon will fall for any old photoshopped rubbish on Twitter, so who knows?
    My guess is: probably real, but not recent

    This seems real as well. Ukrainian artillery shells this morning





    🇺🇦/🇬🇧 Українські артилеристи із вдячністю вшановують славетну лідерку великого народу / Ukrainian artillery men’s sincere gratitude and respect to the remarkable leader of a great nation“
    Memoralising a peaceful death at the end of a long life with an artillery bombardment seems a rather curious thing.
    The iconography around this is fascinating. Loved and respected figurehead of faraway country giving us assistance at time of national peril dies at precisely the moment the tables turn.
    Religions have started on lesser turns of events.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 28,799
    TOPPING said:

    Leon said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    I am genuinely interested in why a particular activity not going ahead is appropriate (or it going ahead inappropriate).

    There is no appropriate, or inappropriate, either decision is fine.

    For many people the Queen was emotionally like a Grandmother. Our kids saw the news with us and said unprompted that they were sad the Queen died and that it reminded them of the death of [my] Nanna recently. Again this morning they were talking about it.

    What people do after a death is up to them, people react differently. Some people like to postpone things, others don't. The FA have made their choice, that's their responsibility and their right to do so. Other sports have made their choice, again that's their responsibility and their right.

    So long as nobody is mandating others can't do what they want to do, there's not an issue. If anyone wants to play football this weekend they can, it just won't be under the banner of the FA if they do.
    Yeah I get that but why is it a mark of respect or disrespect to do or not do something. What is the intrinsic respectness of it.
    There is an intrinsic respectness tho. If a clown, poodle and penis puppet festival was originally planned for the Mall this afternoon, do you think it should go ahead if they can find enough participants?

    No. Obviously not. So then you agree: some respect and decorum is required, observed by all

    It’s not going to be fun, either. A very important person has died. Possibly the most famous person in the world: and a person respected by tens of millions

    We are in for a period of compulsory dull mourning. I suggest that if we didn’t do this we would feel the negative psychological after effects for decades

    Mum is dead. We honour her by being bored, listless and sad for a while. But if we did coke and went to the Maldives we’d feel worse later on
    Bring on the clown, poodle and penis puppets, say I.

    What about those puppets detracts in any way from the feeling of sadness or respect or sense of loss that people may feel.
    Because 98% of sane people would feel revulsion at a clown, poodle, and penis puppet show on the Mall this afternoon

    As would you

    Read Freud on Mourning. He’s very good. This bit - the dull, do nothing, be sad, wear black bit - is an important part of the healing process of grief. So we do it
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 30,170
    Ghedebrav said:

    Cookie said:

    DavidL said:

    darkage said:

    DavidL said:

    Leon said:

    The Ukrainian front is changing at breakneck speed


    “Pro-Russian mapmakers tracking the fighting around Kharkiv are showing a really significant problem for Russia unfolding rapidly.”

    https://twitter.com/eliothiggins/status/1568216432072073217?s=46&t=fqdL0K9NxkSTGjHlnCTk_A

    A Russian army in danger of encirclement? Or Ukrainian overstretch?

    The fast moving tactics of the Ukranians are inspiring, especially after the stalemate of the last 3 months.

    As long as they have fuel and amunition they can easily pierce the Russian lines which have been stretched thin to provide additional support to Kherson and then wreak chaos in the supply lines behind the Russian forces. Individual units may find themselves in local difficulties but the effect on the Russian front line units will be devastating. What we need to see are the large scale surrender of units cut off and out of ammunition. At that point the Russian forces may well collapse.

    This isn't the end but it is starting to look like the beginning of the end.
    If that is true, then it seems to me like a moment of maximum danger with regard to Putin. How will he take such a setback?
    I was saying this a week or so ago in the context of Kherson (which is starting to look like a rather brilliant feint). If Russia suffers a real and undeniable set back involving thousands of men I think Putin will be in serious danger of literal defenestration but that will be a moment of genuine peril for the world, not just Russia. I do not think that the risks of a comprehensive defeat for Russia, much though I wish for it, are being taken nearly seriously enough. The chances of a nuclear war are not insignificant.
    It's also looling worryingly like the easy bit.
    Say Ukraine manages to push the Russian Army out of Ukraine. Even, perhaps, out of Crimea. What then? We surely can't just put the clock back and start buying Russian gas again? How do we ensure Russia doesn't just tool up and come back again?
    It'll take a new leader (in Russia, I mean)
    Even then. The problem is pipeline supply. Which is very fixed and requires stable partners on both ends. With oil, rerouting tankers takes a few months to get smoothed out. Pipeline supply issues for natural gas means new pipelines, or new LNG ports.

    Even if the new Russian government was a bunch of wokists who caused @Leon's head to explode, and applied to join NATO and the EU, who would trust them?
  • state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 5,140
    parkruns going ahead as normal tomorrow
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 28,192
    Leon said:

    Read Freud on Mourning. He’s very good. This bit - the dull, do nothing, be sad, wear black bit - is an important part of the healing process of grief. So we do it

    In a similar vein

    even if you’re a staunch anti-monarchist I think a period of mourning is important as an opportunity to reflect on and ritually mark a watershed in british history. giving people a way to process major events is much healthier than just barrelling on as normal

    there should have been much more ritual acknowledgement of the pandemic. penitential processions, acts of thanksgiving, etc all very important during and after the black death to make sense of cataclysmic experience


    https://twitter.com/roselyddon/status/1568229062287724544
  • LeonLeon Posts: 28,799
    For all those pathetic bitches complaining about Excess Mourning - get over it. I am now restricting my planned day long burning hot clifftop hike to just an hour, between drinks. Because it is the right thing to do

    Also: this is as bad as it gets. We will never see another death like this, not in the lives of anyone here

    So you will be bored and frustrated for a fortnight. So be it
  • DynamoDynamo Posts: 651
    Leon said:

    TOPPING said:

    Leon said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    I am genuinely interested in why a particular activity not going ahead is appropriate (or it going ahead inappropriate).

    There is no appropriate, or inappropriate, either decision is fine.

    For many people the Queen was emotionally like a Grandmother. Our kids saw the news with us and said unprompted that they were sad the Queen died and that it reminded them of the death of [my] Nanna recently. Again this morning they were talking about it.

    What people do after a death is up to them, people react differently. Some people like to postpone things, others don't. The FA have made their choice, that's their responsibility and their right to do so. Other sports have made their choice, again that's their responsibility and their right.

    So long as nobody is mandating others can't do what they want to do, there's not an issue. If anyone wants to play football this weekend they can, it just won't be under the banner of the FA if they do.
    Yeah I get that but why is it a mark of respect or disrespect to do or not do something. What is the intrinsic respectness of it.
    There is an intrinsic respectness tho. If a clown, poodle and penis puppet festival was originally planned for the Mall this afternoon, do you think it should go ahead if they can find enough participants?

    No. Obviously not. So then you agree: some respect and decorum is required, observed by all

    It’s not going to be fun, either. A very important person has died. Possibly the most famous person in the world: and a person respected by tens of millions

    We are in for a period of compulsory dull mourning. I suggest that if we didn’t do this we would feel the negative psychological after effects for decades

    Mum is dead. We honour her by being bored, listless and sad for a while. But if we did coke and went to the Maldives we’d feel worse later on
    Bring on the clown, poodle and penis puppets, say I.

    What about those puppets detracts in any way from the feeling of sadness or respect or sense of loss that people may feel.
    Because 98% of sane people would feel revulsion at a clown, poodle, and penis puppet show on the Mall this afternoon

    As would you

    Read Freud on Mourning. He’s very good. This bit - the dull, do nothing, be sad, wear black bit - is an important part of the healing process of grief. So we do it
    Most sane people wouldn't care.

    Have you seen this video showing young Irish guys dancing in the Mall? (It's months old according to Newsweek.)
  • bigglesbiggles Posts: 2,639
    Cookie said:

    Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    IanB2 said:

    Leon said:

    Apparently this is painted on the side of an apartment block in Ukraine


    If it is, it wasn't recent.
    Leon will fall for any old photoshopped rubbish on Twitter, so who knows?
    My guess is: probably real, but not recent

    This seems real as well. Ukrainian artillery shells this morning





    🇺🇦/🇬🇧 Українські артилеристи із вдячністю вшановують славетну лідерку великого народу / Ukrainian artillery men’s sincere gratitude and respect to the remarkable leader of a great nation“
    Memoralising a peaceful death at the end of a long life with an artillery bombardment seems a rather curious thing.
    The iconography around this is fascinating. Loved and respected figurehead of faraway country giving us assistance at time of national peril dies at precisely the moment the tables turn.
    Religions have started on lesser turns of events.
    Heh, there really is a modern myth in that. The Queen ascends, beats the Russias, and sorts the energy crisis for an encore.

  • LeonLeon Posts: 28,799

    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    The Ukrainian front is changing at breakneck speed


    “Pro-Russian mapmakers tracking the fighting around Kharkiv are showing a really significant problem for Russia unfolding rapidly.”

    https://twitter.com/eliothiggins/status/1568216432072073217?s=46&t=fqdL0K9NxkSTGjHlnCTk_A

    A Russian army in danger of encirclement? Or Ukrainian overstretch?

    The Ukrainians obviously have to be very careful.

    However, they are probably several pointers to say it's not overstretch. First, they are likely to be receiving top-notch intelligence from allies (plus their own partisan networks behind the lines). Second, it's clear Russia had cleared out most of its better forces from the area in the belief it was a "quiet" front. Third, to be overstretched implies there is a risk of a credible counterattack. Nothing from what we are seeing at the moment suggests the Russians are capable of that.

    Personally, I think we are looking a plain old collapse of the front.
    If it is a collapse of the front - then what? Excuse my strategic ignorance, but what could that imply? Ukraine advancing right to the border? Mass capture of troops?
    The location of the collapse of this front implies that the Russian forces around Izyum, which have been attempting to advance to Sloviansk, would be cut off from their supply routes and at risk of being encircled.

    Izyum was the first gain made by Russia in the east after withdrawing from the north around Kyiv. For them to lose it now, and all the troops there, would then have further implications for the entire front line across the Donbas.

    It's not clear where a new front line could be established. I didn't expect the Ukrainians to make it to Kupyiansk. At some point we would expect the Ukrainian advance to run out of reserves and impetus and need to pause before they could move again, but the situation looks pretty dire for the Russian Army now. The effect on morale will be horrendous. No soldier wants to die, but dying in a lost cause feels particularly futile to most, and so the willingness to fight may evaporate.
    Yes quite. The collapse in morale could be much worse than the collapse in strategic position

    Why die for a war you don’t want, can’t understand, and are now losing?
  • TOPPING said:

    Leon said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    I am genuinely interested in why a particular activity not going ahead is appropriate (or it going ahead inappropriate).

    There is no appropriate, or inappropriate, either decision is fine.

    For many people the Queen was emotionally like a Grandmother. Our kids saw the news with us and said unprompted that they were sad the Queen died and that it reminded them of the death of [my] Nanna recently. Again this morning they were talking about it.

    What people do after a death is up to them, people react differently. Some people like to postpone things, others don't. The FA have made their choice, that's their responsibility and their right to do so. Other sports have made their choice, again that's their responsibility and their right.

    So long as nobody is mandating others can't do what they want to do, there's not an issue. If anyone wants to play football this weekend they can, it just won't be under the banner of the FA if they do.
    Yeah I get that but why is it a mark of respect or disrespect to do or not do something. What is the intrinsic respectness of it.
    There is an intrinsic respectness tho. If a clown, poodle and penis puppet festival was originally planned for the Mall this afternoon, do you think it should go ahead if they can find enough participants?

    No. Obviously not. So then you agree: some respect and decorum is required, observed by all

    It’s not going to be fun, either. A very important person has died. Possibly the most famous person in the world: and a person respected by tens of millions

    We are in for a period of compulsory dull mourning. I suggest that if we didn’t do this we would feel the negative psychological after effects for decades

    Mum is dead. We honour her by being bored, listless and sad for a while. But if we did coke and went to the Maldives we’d feel worse later on
    Bring on the clown, poodle and penis puppets, say I.

    What about those puppets detracts in any way from the feeling of sadness or respect or sense of loss that people may feel.
    Clown, poodle and penis show in the Mall?

    Ok I get Boris is the clown, and Blair is the poodle, but who is the penis?
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 36,680
    Leon said:

    TOPPING said:

    Leon said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    I am genuinely interested in why a particular activity not going ahead is appropriate (or it going ahead inappropriate).

    There is no appropriate, or inappropriate, either decision is fine.

    For many people the Queen was emotionally like a Grandmother. Our kids saw the news with us and said unprompted that they were sad the Queen died and that it reminded them of the death of [my] Nanna recently. Again this morning they were talking about it.

    What people do after a death is up to them, people react differently. Some people like to postpone things, others don't. The FA have made their choice, that's their responsibility and their right to do so. Other sports have made their choice, again that's their responsibility and their right.

    So long as nobody is mandating others can't do what they want to do, there's not an issue. If anyone wants to play football this weekend they can, it just won't be under the banner of the FA if they do.
    Yeah I get that but why is it a mark of respect or disrespect to do or not do something. What is the intrinsic respectness of it.
    There is an intrinsic respectness tho. If a clown, poodle and penis puppet festival was originally planned for the Mall this afternoon, do you think it should go ahead if they can find enough participants?

    No. Obviously not. So then you agree: some respect and decorum is required, observed by all

    It’s not going to be fun, either. A very important person has died. Possibly the most famous person in the world: and a person respected by tens of millions

    We are in for a period of compulsory dull mourning. I suggest that if we didn’t do this we would feel the negative psychological after effects for decades

    Mum is dead. We honour her by being bored, listless and sad for a while. But if we did coke and went to the Maldives we’d feel worse later on
    Bring on the clown, poodle and penis puppets, say I.

    What about those puppets detracts in any way from the feeling of sadness or respect or sense of loss that people may feel.
    Because 98% of sane people would feel revulsion at a clown, poodle, and penis puppet show on the Mall this afternoon

    As would you

    Read Freud on Mourning. He’s very good. This bit - the dull, do nothing, be sad, wear black bit - is an important part of the healing process of grief. So we do it
    I am not in a personal capacity mourning the Queen. She lived a good life, died in as "happy" a set of circumstances as it is perhaps possible to imagine. And she has been succeeded by her heir, Charles.

    I am not particularly sad in the way I was sad when my father died; I am sad in the way I was sad when I saw that Margaret Thatcher or Mikhail Gorbachev had died.

    The Queen was part of the fabric of British society and her death marks on one level a huge change in that society (on many other levels nothing changes). Britain is a funny old place with its red postboxes and changing of the guard and morris dancers. The Queen was part of that but integral to that is the procedure of our now King Charles III.

    As exemplified by the very monarchy you are saying life should stop or change for, nothing has changed.

    I would still vote for the penis puppet.
  • Leon said:

    TOPPING said:

    Leon said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    I am genuinely interested in why a particular activity not going ahead is appropriate (or it going ahead inappropriate).

    There is no appropriate, or inappropriate, either decision is fine.

    For many people the Queen was emotionally like a Grandmother. Our kids saw the news with us and said unprompted that they were sad the Queen died and that it reminded them of the death of [my] Nanna recently. Again this morning they were talking about it.

    What people do after a death is up to them, people react differently. Some people like to postpone things, others don't. The FA have made their choice, that's their responsibility and their right to do so. Other sports have made their choice, again that's their responsibility and their right.

    So long as nobody is mandating others can't do what they want to do, there's not an issue. If anyone wants to play football this weekend they can, it just won't be under the banner of the FA if they do.
    Yeah I get that but why is it a mark of respect or disrespect to do or not do something. What is the intrinsic respectness of it.
    There is an intrinsic respectness tho. If a clown, poodle and penis puppet festival was originally planned for the Mall this afternoon, do you think it should go ahead if they can find enough participants?

    No. Obviously not. So then you agree: some respect and decorum is required, observed by all

    It’s not going to be fun, either. A very important person has died. Possibly the most famous person in the world: and a person respected by tens of millions

    We are in for a period of compulsory dull mourning. I suggest that if we didn’t do this we would feel the negative psychological after effects for decades

    Mum is dead. We honour her by being bored, listless and sad for a while. But if we did coke and went to the Maldives we’d feel worse later on
    Bring on the clown, poodle and penis puppets, say I.

    What about those puppets detracts in any way from the feeling of sadness or respect or sense of loss that people may feel.
    Because 98% of sane people would feel revulsion at a clown, poodle, and penis puppet show on the Mall this afternoon

    As would you

    Read Freud on Mourning. He’s very good. This bit - the dull, do nothing, be sad, wear black bit - is an important part of the healing process of grief. So we do it
    And we can't microwave our way through it- it happens at the pace it happens. That's not really where we are as a culture.

    It was the strange thing about yesterday afternoon. One one hand, everyone knew something was up and probably had a shrewd idea what had already happened. It was definitely right to get the choreographic ducks in a row before making the announcement, but it led to that odd interval of dead/not dead, like Schrodinger's poor cat.

    Wasn't an issue in the past, because there wasn't acres of rolling screentime to fill.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 36,680

    TOPPING said:

    Leon said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    I am genuinely interested in why a particular activity not going ahead is appropriate (or it going ahead inappropriate).

    There is no appropriate, or inappropriate, either decision is fine.

    For many people the Queen was emotionally like a Grandmother. Our kids saw the news with us and said unprompted that they were sad the Queen died and that it reminded them of the death of [my] Nanna recently. Again this morning they were talking about it.

    What people do after a death is up to them, people react differently. Some people like to postpone things, others don't. The FA have made their choice, that's their responsibility and their right to do so. Other sports have made their choice, again that's their responsibility and their right.

    So long as nobody is mandating others can't do what they want to do, there's not an issue. If anyone wants to play football this weekend they can, it just won't be under the banner of the FA if they do.
    Yeah I get that but why is it a mark of respect or disrespect to do or not do something. What is the intrinsic respectness of it.
    There is an intrinsic respectness tho. If a clown, poodle and penis puppet festival was originally planned for the Mall this afternoon, do you think it should go ahead if they can find enough participants?

    No. Obviously not. So then you agree: some respect and decorum is required, observed by all

    It’s not going to be fun, either. A very important person has died. Possibly the most famous person in the world: and a person respected by tens of millions

    We are in for a period of compulsory dull mourning. I suggest that if we didn’t do this we would feel the negative psychological after effects for decades

    Mum is dead. We honour her by being bored, listless and sad for a while. But if we did coke and went to the Maldives we’d feel worse later on
    Bring on the clown, poodle and penis puppets, say I.

    What about those puppets detracts in any way from the feeling of sadness or respect or sense of loss that people may feel.
    Clown, poodle and penis show in the Mall?

    Ok I get Boris is the clown, and Blair is the poodle, but who is the penis?
    The list of candidates is long.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 10,520
    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    I am genuinely interested in why a particular activity not going ahead is appropriate (or it going ahead inappropriate).

    There is no appropriate, or inappropriate, either decision is fine.

    For many people the Queen was emotionally like a Grandmother. Our kids saw the news with us and said unprompted that they were sad the Queen died and that it reminded them of the death of [my] Nanna recently. Again this morning they were talking about it.

    What people do after a death is up to them, people react differently. Some people like to postpone things, others don't. The FA have made their choice, that's their responsibility and their right to do so. Other sports have made their choice, again that's their responsibility and their right.

    So long as nobody is mandating others can't do what they want to do, there's not an issue. If anyone wants to play football this weekend they can, it just won't be under the banner of the FA if they do.
    Yeah I get that but why is it a mark of respect or disrespect to do or not do something. What is the intrinsic respectness of it.
    I think the implication is that, instead of participating in normal activity, one would instead use the time to reflect on the life of duty of the Queen and resolve to better follow her example, etc, etc. So the implication is that you would do something else, to show respect, rather than the things you would normally do.

    Not something I am doing myself, but not inherently ridiculous.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 24,412

    TOPPING said:

    Leon said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    I am genuinely interested in why a particular activity not going ahead is appropriate (or it going ahead inappropriate).

    There is no appropriate, or inappropriate, either decision is fine.

    For many people the Queen was emotionally like a Grandmother. Our kids saw the news with us and said unprompted that they were sad the Queen died and that it reminded them of the death of [my] Nanna recently. Again this morning they were talking about it.

    What people do after a death is up to them, people react differently. Some people like to postpone things, others don't. The FA have made their choice, that's their responsibility and their right to do so. Other sports have made their choice, again that's their responsibility and their right.

    So long as nobody is mandating others can't do what they want to do, there's not an issue. If anyone wants to play football this weekend they can, it just won't be under the banner of the FA if they do.
    Yeah I get that but why is it a mark of respect or disrespect to do or not do something. What is the intrinsic respectness of it.
    There is an intrinsic respectness tho. If a clown, poodle and penis puppet festival was originally planned for the Mall this afternoon, do you think it should go ahead if they can find enough participants?

    No. Obviously not. So then you agree: some respect and decorum is required, observed by all

    It’s not going to be fun, either. A very important person has died. Possibly the most famous person in the world: and a person respected by tens of millions

    We are in for a period of compulsory dull mourning. I suggest that if we didn’t do this we would feel the negative psychological after effects for decades

    Mum is dead. We honour her by being bored, listless and sad for a while. But if we did coke and went to the Maldives we’d feel worse later on
    Bring on the clown, poodle and penis puppets, say I.

    What about those puppets detracts in any way from the feeling of sadness or respect or sense of loss that people may feel.
    Clown, poodle and penis show in the Mall?

    Ok I get Boris is the clown, and Blair is the poodle, but who is the penis?
    Cressida Dick?
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 30,170
    Leon said:

    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    The Ukrainian front is changing at breakneck speed


    “Pro-Russian mapmakers tracking the fighting around Kharkiv are showing a really significant problem for Russia unfolding rapidly.”

    https://twitter.com/eliothiggins/status/1568216432072073217?s=46&t=fqdL0K9NxkSTGjHlnCTk_A

    A Russian army in danger of encirclement? Or Ukrainian overstretch?

    The Ukrainians obviously have to be very careful.

    However, they are probably several pointers to say it's not overstretch. First, they are likely to be receiving top-notch intelligence from allies (plus their own partisan networks behind the lines). Second, it's clear Russia had cleared out most of its better forces from the area in the belief it was a "quiet" front. Third, to be overstretched implies there is a risk of a credible counterattack. Nothing from what we are seeing at the moment suggests the Russians are capable of that.

    Personally, I think we are looking a plain old collapse of the front.
    If it is a collapse of the front - then what? Excuse my strategic ignorance, but what could that imply? Ukraine advancing right to the border? Mass capture of troops?
    The location of the collapse of this front implies that the Russian forces around Izyum, which have been attempting to advance to Sloviansk, would be cut off from their supply routes and at risk of being encircled.

    Izyum was the first gain made by Russia in the east after withdrawing from the north around Kyiv. For them to lose it now, and all the troops there, would then have further implications for the entire front line across the Donbas.

    It's not clear where a new front line could be established. I didn't expect the Ukrainians to make it to Kupyiansk. At some point we would expect the Ukrainian advance to run out of reserves and impetus and need to pause before they could move again, but the situation looks pretty dire for the Russian Army now. The effect on morale will be horrendous. No soldier wants to die, but dying in a lost cause feels particularly futile to most, and so the willingness to fight may evaporate.
    Yes quite. The collapse in morale could be much worse than the collapse in strategic position

    Why die for a war you don’t want, can’t understand, and are now losing?
    “In war, moral power is to physical as three parts out of four.”

    Or variations, thereof.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 15,920

    Cyclefree said:

    If there was one thing that typified the Queen's approach to pretty much everything it was that you carry on.

    Which is what the rest of us should be doing. Not all this cancellation nonsense. By all means pay tribute, have minutes' silences etc but there is no reason for everything to go into suspended animation. Those preparing the funeral are doing their job and will do it magnificently I expect. The rest of us can do ours, including the politicians.

    The energy bills aren't going to go away. We need to understand the plan announced yesterday and what it means for us all and how it is to be paid for. The Queen's death should not mean that the government avoids scrutiny or challenge. There are plenty of other issues which are not going to wait until the funeral or the coronation or whatever.

    Nothing will more undermine support for a monarchy than claims that the proper functioning of government including all the tough bits which the executive may not like are somehow disrespectful to a dead monarch, especially one who made service and duty her calling card.

    None of this stops people mourning or feeling sad or whatever. But often at a time of change or sadness it is the routines of daily life and the fact that you still have responsibilities to others which can provide structure and help, a scaffolding to stop grief overwhelming. That applies to people. And countries too.

    The funeral will be a day to stop and remember and honour. But we don't need to turn into a catatonic state between now and then or even afterwards. I hope we don't anyway.

    Spot on. Parliament has been on hold for 3 months for a leadership election, it sounds like that will be extended further. A few days later after they return they will stop work for another month for party conferences! It is all ridiculous that so little work can get done when we are in an economic crisis and proxy war.

    It is the opposite of the Queens stoic and hard working approach, adjusting to so many different scenarios through her reign, but all with a work ethic and a determination to keep calm and carry on.
    Truss should really, at an appropriate moment, announce cancellation of the conference recess
    Ha, yes a cancellation I would support! Never going to happen though, because the people who like going to them are the movers and shakers, not football fans.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 36,680
    edited September 9
    Scott_xP said:

    Leon said:

    Read Freud on Mourning. He’s very good. This bit - the dull, do nothing, be sad, wear black bit - is an important part of the healing process of grief. So we do it

    In a similar vein

    even if you’re a staunch anti-monarchist I think a period of mourning is important as an opportunity to reflect on and ritually mark a watershed in british history. giving people a way to process major events is much healthier than just barrelling on as normal

    there should have been much more ritual acknowledgement of the pandemic. penitential processions, acts of thanksgiving, etc all very important during and after the black death to make sense of cataclysmic experience


    https://twitter.com/roselyddon/status/1568229062287724544
    Try telling that to young black men pursued by plod or those using foodbanks or those waiting for operations or....

    Now look, I am (was) a conservative. I love all that ceremonial shit. But if we are going to mark a watershed I need to know that we have shed the water. I don't think we have. Britain is just the same as it was on Thursday morning and the monarchy, on its own terms, and as noted by @Casino_Royale also, thinks the same.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 42,969
    That US academic who wished the Queen a painful death has gained about 60k followers on Twitter since yesterday.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 24,412

    Leon said:

    TOPPING said:

    Leon said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    I am genuinely interested in why a particular activity not going ahead is appropriate (or it going ahead inappropriate).

    There is no appropriate, or inappropriate, either decision is fine.

    For many people the Queen was emotionally like a Grandmother. Our kids saw the news with us and said unprompted that they were sad the Queen died and that it reminded them of the death of [my] Nanna recently. Again this morning they were talking about it.

    What people do after a death is up to them, people react differently. Some people like to postpone things, others don't. The FA have made their choice, that's their responsibility and their right to do so. Other sports have made their choice, again that's their responsibility and their right.

    So long as nobody is mandating others can't do what they want to do, there's not an issue. If anyone wants to play football this weekend they can, it just won't be under the banner of the FA if they do.
    Yeah I get that but why is it a mark of respect or disrespect to do or not do something. What is the intrinsic respectness of it.
    There is an intrinsic respectness tho. If a clown, poodle and penis puppet festival was originally planned for the Mall this afternoon, do you think it should go ahead if they can find enough participants?

    No. Obviously not. So then you agree: some respect and decorum is required, observed by all

    It’s not going to be fun, either. A very important person has died. Possibly the most famous person in the world: and a person respected by tens of millions

    We are in for a period of compulsory dull mourning. I suggest that if we didn’t do this we would feel the negative psychological after effects for decades

    Mum is dead. We honour her by being bored, listless and sad for a while. But if we did coke and went to the Maldives we’d feel worse later on
    Bring on the clown, poodle and penis puppets, say I.

    What about those puppets detracts in any way from the feeling of sadness or respect or sense of loss that people may feel.
    Because 98% of sane people would feel revulsion at a clown, poodle, and penis puppet show on the Mall this afternoon

    As would you

    Read Freud on Mourning. He’s very good. This bit - the dull, do nothing, be sad, wear black bit - is an important part of the healing process of grief. So we do it
    And we can't microwave our way through it- it happens at the pace it happens. That's not really where we are as a culture.

    It was the strange thing about yesterday afternoon. One one hand, everyone knew something was up and probably had a shrewd idea what had already happened. It was definitely right to get the choreographic ducks in a row before making the announcement, but it led to that odd interval of dead/not dead, like Schrodinger's poor cat.

    Wasn't an issue in the past, because there wasn't acres of rolling screentime to fill.
    Has anyone said exactly when she died? Afternoon is all I heard.
    That "comfortable" was a very loaded term.
    Was she dead when the Commons was told?
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 30,170
    Sandpit said:

    Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    IanB2 said:

    Leon said:

    Apparently this is painted on the side of an apartment block in Ukraine


    If it is, it wasn't recent.
    Leon will fall for any old photoshopped rubbish on Twitter, so who knows?
    My guess is: probably real, but not recent

    This seems real as well. Ukrainian artillery shells this morning





    🇺🇦/🇬🇧 Українські артилеристи із вдячністю вшановують славетну лідерку великого народу / Ukrainian artillery men’s sincere gratitude and respect to the remarkable leader of a great nation“
    Memoralising a peaceful death at the end of a long life with an artillery bombardment seems a rather curious thing.
    All part of military tradition, to write messages to the enemy on ordnance. Thankfully, it looks as if His Majesty’s armed forces managed to stick to the blank cartridges in their guns this afternoon.
    Haven't you read the fruitier bits of Twitter and Reddit?

    "She was an evil warmonger.... blah blah"

    So celebrating her life by tearing some orcs to pieces with supersonic shell splinters is exactly on message....
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 36,680
    edited September 9

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    I am genuinely interested in why a particular activity not going ahead is appropriate (or it going ahead inappropriate).

    There is no appropriate, or inappropriate, either decision is fine.

    For many people the Queen was emotionally like a Grandmother. Our kids saw the news with us and said unprompted that they were sad the Queen died and that it reminded them of the death of [my] Nanna recently. Again this morning they were talking about it.

    What people do after a death is up to them, people react differently. Some people like to postpone things, others don't. The FA have made their choice, that's their responsibility and their right to do so. Other sports have made their choice, again that's their responsibility and their right.

    So long as nobody is mandating others can't do what they want to do, there's not an issue. If anyone wants to play football this weekend they can, it just won't be under the banner of the FA if they do.
    Yeah I get that but why is it a mark of respect or disrespect to do or not do something. What is the intrinsic respectness of it.
    I think the implication is that, instead of participating in normal activity, one would instead use the time to reflect on the life of duty of the Queen and resolve to better follow her example, etc, etc. So the implication is that you would do something else, to show respect, rather than the things you would normally do.

    Not something I am doing myself, but not inherently ridiculous.
    Not inherently ridiculous at all. Like having a sabbath. Time should be spent for contemplation. But we know that's not how it works for 96% of people for whom Sunday is a good time to go shopping or to the park or play softball or hockey or any number of other activities. It fits a narrative that no longer exists imo.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 28,799
    Scott_xP said:

    Leon said:

    Read Freud on Mourning. He’s very good. This bit - the dull, do nothing, be sad, wear black bit - is an important part of the healing process of grief. So we do it

    In a similar vein

    even if you’re a staunch anti-monarchist I think a period of mourning is important as an opportunity to reflect on and ritually mark a watershed in british history. giving people a way to process major events is much healthier than just barrelling on as normal

    there should have been much more ritual acknowledgement of the pandemic. penitential processions, acts of thanksgiving, etc all very important during and after the black death to make sense of cataclysmic experience


    https://twitter.com/roselyddon/status/1568229062287724544
    Yes. Religions have these elaborate rituals for very good reasons. They have evolved - culturally - to be socially and emotionally satisfying, consoling, soothing

    We are in mourning as a nation. There it is

    In a year we will forget the annoying fact that little Sally-Ann’s football match got cancelled, we will remember that everything stopped as we marked the death of the 96-year-old Queen, and we will feel a bit better knowing that we all did this together
  • nico679nico679 Posts: 2,551
    A very endearing moment when a lady in the crowd gives Charles a kiss on the cheek .

    Although I expect in future he’ll be much more guarded in commenting on many issues I’d expect and want him to continue to talk about the environment.

This discussion has been closed.