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Starmer v Truss – the first PMQs – politicalbetting.com

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  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 30,162
    Andy_JS said:

    The NYT's anti-British stance is getting a bit embarrassing. New York City had more homicides in July than London did in the whole of the first 6 months of the year.

    The BritishCitiesAreDangerousAndFullOfNoGoZones is pure MAGA stuff as well.

    It’s because we don’t all carry nuclear weapons and we allow Effniks to run about without lynching them, according to the Trumpets….
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 81,407

    The dividing lines are very sharp. This is good. The UK (actually, England) needs to decide whether it wants to be America or Europe.

    That's what I was thinking after her short introductory speech. Whatever you think about her plans, and my views aren't good, after Johnson she at least brings some sort of clarity to things, which, in the short term at least, almost feels like some kind of a relief from the wandering Johnsonian opportunism and void.

    I could not agree more. I watched the exchange, and it was far more informative and, therefore, consequential than anything we got with Johnson. There is no gaping divide in personality, background or life experience between Truss and Starner. That may end up improving the quality of political discourse, which cannot be anything other than positive (and which, I think, will also favour him (but I would say that)).

    Yes, I've not been part of the "Truss is rubbish" mob and I like her manner (though naturally not her direction of policy). I think British politics will benefit from having two adults debating instead of an adult and a comedian.
    Well it still won't be an actual debate, but that's not what the session is about, so it will be refreshing.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 28,008
    IshmaelZ said:

    maxh said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Nigelb said:

    Carnyx said:

    Nigelb said:

    Carnyx said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    I don't mind Coffey being a fat drunk. I do mind her being a Roman Catholic anti abortion bigot. a lot.

    Where does she stand on homoeopathy?
    Directly on top of it, I hope.
    It needs squashing.
    The problem with it is it is so cheap - just distilled water and one pill of each drug for all the NHS. Tempting.
    And the placebo effect is very real.
    But could we not think of better lies to tell the subjects ?
    No. That's what is genius about it. You can't lie because ethics, apparently, and if you write aqua et sucris on the label people will just google it. homeopathy is the only way of squaring this circle.
    One of the best exchanges I’ve read on here in ages. First decent argument I’ve read for homeopathy. Thanks!

    Pleasure

    There's another one: an NHS homeopath is more likely than a freelance nutter 1. To recognise symptoms of e.g. cancer 2. To recommend a non homeopathic response to them.
    Er, problem with that - NHS England doesn't do homeopathy

    https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/homeopathy/

    I think it used to be available on a small scale in a Glasgow hospital in Scotland, but no mention here

    https://www.nhsinform.scot/tests-and-treatments/medicines-and-medical-aids/complementary-medicine/homeopathy#available
  • Pro_RataPro_Rata Posts: 3,840
    Thought an interesting question today was Peter Bottomley's on local planning control over bigger projects.

    Truss was all spades in the ground yesterday, yet seemed quite warm towards the local control thing.

    They are not direct opposite statements but they do point in somewhat different directions, be interesting how that plays out.

  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    IshmaelZ said:

    Carnyx said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Carnyx said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    I don't mind Coffey being a fat drunk. I do mind her being a Roman Catholic anti abortion bigot. a lot.

    Where does she stand on homoeopathy?
    She seems to think chiropractors are mainstream.
    *blinks*

    A UCL chemist should certainly not be sympathetic to the notion of succussation, so good for her if that is so - but chiropractice? (Chiropraxis? Chiropracty?)
    Today program today

    Therese Coffey on radio 4 just now

    ‘ I have to remind you Nick that the majority of healthcare is actually delivered through primary care by doctors, dentists and ….chiropractors .’

    https://twitter.com/helensuth/status/1567415491257405440
    Programme.
    No, that was a note to self. Badly behind with my coding.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 19,569
    Sandpit said:

    That was a really good first PMQs for Liz Truss, she was clear in her answers even when she was disagreeing with the point of the questioner. Clear water between the parties on the energy issue.

    Agree. She was good - far better in that situation than delivering a speech.

    Biden obviously tried to give her a duffing up on the NI issue (the dick), that's clear from the differing accounts of their call, with No. 10's politely glossing over the difference. Her answer on that issue today seemed fairly defiant, but stopped short of a timebound guarantee that there would be unilateral action if there was no shift in position from the EU. Let's hope that she holds firm.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 20,020
    O/T

    "The suffering of the Chinese people under the ideology of Zero Covid is extraordinary. Lockdown may be a mercifully fading memory for us in the West but it remains the ruthless daily reality for the Chinese. The numbers are staggering. Sixty-eight cities in China are currently in partial or full lockdown. As of last week this includes the megacity of Chengdu, where 21million people have been instructed to stay indoors. Only one person from each household is allowed out to do essential shopping. No exercise, no strolls in the park, no going to work. Briefly nipping out for food is the only civil liberty the people of Chengdu enjoy."

    https://www.spiked-online.com/2022/09/07/the-neverending-nightmare-of-zero-covid/
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 59,665
    Would the most devastating homeopathic army in the world be a single child with no combat training or weaponry?
  • biggles said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Carnyx said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Carnyx said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    I don't mind Coffey being a fat drunk. I do mind her being a Roman Catholic anti abortion bigot. a lot.

    Where does she stand on homoeopathy?
    She seems to think chiropractors are mainstream.
    *blinks*

    A UCL chemist should certainly not be sympathetic to the notion of succussation, so good for her if that is so - but chiropractice? (Chiropraxis? Chiropracty?)
    Today program today

    Therese Coffey on radio 4 just now

    ‘ I have to remind you Nick that the majority of healthcare is actually delivered through primary care by doctors, dentists and ….chiropractors .’

    https://twitter.com/helensuth/status/1567415491257405440
    Hopefully she meant chiropodists and we are about to see some long overdue investment in the nation’s feet.
    Coffey probably meant osteopaths who are a bit like chiropracters but more mainstream.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 6,648

    Sarah Montague on WATO giving PMQs to Truss on Q6.

    Rentoul thinks Starmer absolutely marmalised her. He quite often walks the paths less trodden on these things
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 41,886

    IshmaelZ said:

    What is the point of closed questions (no. 10 mr Speaker)?

    The MP who asks the question can ask a follow-up on the subject of the original question. Most MPs ask *open* questions, normally about what the Prime Minister will be doing that day, which effectively means they can ask a follow-up on any subject, potentially catching out the Prime Minister.

    Occasionally, MPs ask *closed* questions (eg will the Prime Minister ban dogs?). This means that all follow-ups must be about banning dogs. Closed questions are used when the MP actually wants an answer to the closed question, which of course the PM has seen in advance, and to the follow-up.
    Yes, it’s done to give the PM advance sight of the question - giving the PM time before the session to research an answer - and to allow a follow-up from the MP concerned.

    Question 1 - to paraphrase, “What is the PM up to today?”, is simply a tradition, as is the stock answer in reply “In addition to my duties in this House, I shall have further meetings with Ministerial colleagues and others later today”.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 6,648

    Sandpit said:

    That was a really good first PMQs for Liz Truss, she was clear in her answers even when she was disagreeing with the point of the questioner. Clear water between the parties on the energy issue.

    Agree. She was good - far better in that situation than delivering a speech.

    Biden obviously tried to give her a duffing up on the NI issue (the dick), that's clear from the differing accounts of their call, with No. 10's politely glossing over the difference. Her answer on that issue today seemed fairly defiant, but stopped short of a timebound guarantee that there would be unilateral action if there was no shift in position from the EU. Let's hope that she holds firm.
    Irish Joe the Rugby player is back
  • The dividing lines are very sharp. This is good. The UK (actually, England) needs to decide whether it wants to be America or Europe.

    The answer is "no".

    The UK (actually England) is the UK (England). Not Europe or America.
  • eristdooferistdoof Posts: 4,419
    IshmaelZ said:

    Carnyx said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Carnyx said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    I don't mind Coffey being a fat drunk. I do mind her being a Roman Catholic anti abortion bigot. a lot.

    Where does she stand on homoeopathy?
    She seems to think chiropractors are mainstream.
    *blinks*

    A UCL chemist should certainly not be sympathetic to the notion of succussation, so good for her if that is so - but chiropractice? (Chiropraxis? Chiropracty?)
    Today program today

    Therese Coffey on radio 4 just now

    ‘ I have to remind you Nick that the majority of healthcare is actually delivered through primary care by doctors, dentists and ….chiropractors .’

    https://twitter.com/helensuth/status/1567415491257405440
    Im sure the Royal College of Nursing is delighted by that statement.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 81,407
    Pro_Rata said:

    Thought an interesting question today was Peter Bottomley's on local planning control over bigger projects.

    Truss was all spades in the ground yesterday, yet seemed quite warm towards the local control thing.

    They are not direct opposite statements but they do point in somewhat different directions, be interesting how that plays out.

    I cannot at present figure out how she will marry those two together. The 'more local control' is generally a cover for NIMBYs in the shires so went down well with the members (though issues of specific targets can indeed be unfair on localities), but government policy has long been trying to make things easier, not harder, hence the proposals that got Jenrick fired.

    Honestly, giving locals more control over smaller projects but less on bigger projects seems more the way to go - when the country really needs the big stuff, holding it up locally forever just stores up problems, so you need to shortcut that, but the tradeoff is the much more common local stuff they have greater say over than now.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 18,482

    Sarah Montague on WATO giving PMQs to Truss on Q6.

    Rentoul thinks Starmer absolutely marmalised her. He quite often walks the paths less trodden on these things
    Sarah suggesting Starmer didn't know how to deal with Truss.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 81,407
    IanB2 said:

    It is refreshing at least that the new PM appears willing and able to actually address the questions being thrown at her.

    Rookie mistake. When things get tough she'll revert.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 30,162
    edited September 7
    Carnyx said:

    biggles said:

    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-08-30/uk-predicts-up-to-170-billion-excess-profits-for-energy-firms

    UK gas producers and electricity generators may make excess profits totaling as much as £170 billion ($199 billion) over the next two years, according to Treasury estimates that lay bare the revenue-raising potential of a windfall tax.

    Treasury officials will deliver the assessment to the next prime minister when they take office on Sept. 6, according to a person familiar with the matter, who asked not to be identified discussing internal calculations.

    What is an “excess profit”? Who is to say it is “excess”? How much profit is one allowed to make? Might one not reframe this as “investment in energy sector to soar, and pension funds to benefit, as energy sector firms make record profit”?
    Well, when I did A-level Economics back in the seventies there was a concept of "normal profits" i.e. the profit that needed to be made to prevent the owners deciding to pack it in and do something else instead.
    So presumably "excess profits" are anything above that level.
    There was such a thing as an excess profits tax in the Great War - so they must have had a definition then. Not sure what happened in WW2.
    Because of the chaos with which the excess profits tax was assessed during and after WWI*, a number of companies took the precaution of going bankrupt to make sure that it wasn’t hanging over them like an axe on a thread.

    See Sopwith et al….

    *There were strong rumours at the time that it was being used to hit companies that weren’t being protected by cabals of business leaders and civil servants (think magic circle).
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 6,648

    Sarah Montague on WATO giving PMQs to Truss on Q6.

    Rentoul thinks Starmer absolutely marmalised her. He quite often walks the paths less trodden on these things
    Sarah suggesting Starmer didn't know how to deal with Truss.
    Rentoul thought he stuffed her until she came up with the 'Labour leader calling for tax rises' quip
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 18,482
    edited September 7
    Leadsom smashes Thornberry on WATO, not least because Sarah allowed Leadsom to cut in on Thornberry and didn't allow Thornberry to do the same.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 18,482

    Sarah Montague on WATO giving PMQs to Truss on Q6.

    Rentoul thinks Starmer absolutely marmalised her. He quite often walks the paths less trodden on these things
    Sarah suggesting Starmer didn't know how to deal with Truss.
    Rentoul thought he stuffed her until she came up with the 'Labour leader calling for tax rises' quip
    That is the moment Sarah calls the win.
  • eristdooferistdoof Posts: 4,419

    Would the most devastating homeopathic army in the world be a single child with no combat training or weaponry?

    A better example would be one old man who has soldiers going to war when he was a young man, but now just has a memory of this.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 30,162
    AlistairM said:

    Looks like training the Ukrainian army is paying off...

    Russian sources report that Ukrainian forces are using effective NATO style combined arms attacks on their positions and they are totally overwhelmed in some areas.
    https://twitter.com/WarMonitor3/status/1567474654310277120

    Which is interesting, because Soviet armies used to be considered masters of combined arms operations. From WWII onwards. And the West was studying their doctrine (Frunze academy publications etc)
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 6,648
    MISTY said:

    From what I read on BBG the EU is trying to universalise energy market control across the 27 with excess profit taxation / price caps on ALL forms of power generation / Russian gas import caps and maybe even mandatory electricity use reduction targets (!)

    IF we were still in the EU we would presumably be obliged to comply, as well as giving our politicians another issue where they could shrug their shoulders and say 'its the EU, innit'

    Whatever you think of Truss's energy security plan, its hers, and her government will stand or fall by it.

    Smaller nations to suffer to bail out Germany from the shit. Plus ca change
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 36,680
    Sorry if I'm the nth person to ask this - but PMQs in one or two lines pls.

    tia
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 19,569

    Leadsom smashes Thornberry on WATO, not least because Sarah allowed Leadsom to cut in on her and didn't allow Thornberry to do the same.

    Leadsom is a loss to the current (and previous) Government imo.
  • OnboardG1OnboardG1 Posts: 1,230
    I feel like people who wanted Truss to fall on her face will be disappointed. She made some strategic errors but was reasonably clear and concise. Equally, I think Starmer is better equipped for this than expected. He’s spent the summer honing his message and it shows.

    Interestingly I think Johnson was a much harder opponent. PMQs is like a 17th c duel. Starmer picked his weapon stood en guard and Johnson would throw a bucket of piss over everyone present and claim victory. Truss actually plays the game and Starmer is good at it.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 57,127
    Sandpit said:

    That was a really good first PMQs for Liz Truss, she was clear in her answers even when she was disagreeing with the point of the questioner. Clear water between the parties on the energy issue.

    Thornbury on R4 sounding rather foolish arguing that Truss “wasn’t answering questions”, when one of Truss’ answers was simply “Yes”.
  • The dividing lines are very sharp. This is good. The UK (actually, England) needs to decide whether it wants to be America or Europe.

    The answer is "no".

    The UK (actually England) is the UK (England). Not Europe or America.

    OK

  • A big problem for the Tories is that they are going to have to explain why they are getting taxpayers to support energy companies rather than imposing a windfall tax on energy companies when it seems so intuitive to do so.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 104,543
    edited September 7
    eek said:

    New iPhone today, I will be getting it

    You may not once you see the price of it...
    I'll be buying five of them.

    That's where my Tory leadership contest winnings will be going.

    Really keen to see what the Apple Watch Pro offers.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 10,451
    eristdoof said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Carnyx said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Carnyx said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    I don't mind Coffey being a fat drunk. I do mind her being a Roman Catholic anti abortion bigot. a lot.

    Where does she stand on homoeopathy?
    She seems to think chiropractors are mainstream.
    *blinks*

    A UCL chemist should certainly not be sympathetic to the notion of succussation, so good for her if that is so - but chiropractice? (Chiropraxis? Chiropracty?)
    Today program today

    Therese Coffey on radio 4 just now

    ‘ I have to remind you Nick that the majority of healthcare is actually delivered through primary care by doctors, dentists and ….chiropractors .’

    https://twitter.com/helensuth/status/1567415491257405440
    Im sure the Royal College of Nursing is delighted by that statement.
    Mrs Goutfire looks to be a good bet for first out of the Truss cabinet.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 18,482
    Lamont shooting down Truss's tax cuts equals growth narrative. He, as ever, is worried by inflation.
  • state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 5,140

    A big problem for the Tories is that they are going to have to explain why they are getting taxpayers to support energy companies rather than imposing a windfall tax on energy companies when it seems so intuitive to do so.

    how can you windfall tax saudi arabia or Qatar?
  • TOPPING said:

    Sorry if I'm the nth person to ask this - but PMQs in one or two lines pls.

    tia

    Truss did well, Starmer did well too!

    Johnson was not missed.
    Thanks. I had also missed it due to work and I value your impressions.

    I still personally feel like we are in a frying pan/fire situation here as far as Johnson/Truss go. And I am instinctively and intellectually opposed to Labour so this is a continuing poor choice for me unless Truss does something truly spectacular (I am not expecting it)
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 19,569
    TOPPING said:

    Sorry if I'm the nth person to ask this - but PMQs in one or two lines pls.

    tia

    Refreshingly non shouty. Ruled out windfall tax. Casual(er) attire - jacket and frilly blouse.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 18,482
    Dura_Ace said:

    eristdoof said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Carnyx said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Carnyx said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    I don't mind Coffey being a fat drunk. I do mind her being a Roman Catholic anti abortion bigot. a lot.

    Where does she stand on homoeopathy?
    She seems to think chiropractors are mainstream.
    *blinks*

    A UCL chemist should certainly not be sympathetic to the notion of succussation, so good for her if that is so - but chiropractice? (Chiropraxis? Chiropracty?)
    Today program today

    Therese Coffey on radio 4 just now

    ‘ I have to remind you Nick that the majority of healthcare is actually delivered through primary care by doctors, dentists and ….chiropractors .’

    https://twitter.com/helensuth/status/1567415491257405440
    Im sure the Royal College of Nursing is delighted by that statement.
    Mrs Goutfire looks to be a good bet for first out of the Truss cabinet.
    By dismissal or feet first by "full monty" breakfast?
  • TOPPING said:

    Sorry if I'm the nth person to ask this - but PMQs in one or two lines pls.

    tia

    Less bluster more policy differences.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 35,319

    MISTY said:

    From what I read on BBG the EU is trying to universalise energy market control across the 27 with excess profit taxation / price caps on ALL forms of power generation / Russian gas import caps and maybe even mandatory electricity use reduction targets (!)

    IF we were still in the EU we would presumably be obliged to comply, as well as giving our politicians another issue where they could shrug their shoulders and say 'its the EU, innit'

    Whatever you think of Truss's energy security plan, its hers, and her government will stand or fall by it.

    Smaller nations to suffer to bail out Germany from the shit. Plus ca change
    Thank goodness I'm part of an energy rich small nation in the UK rather than the EU!




  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 19,569

    A big problem for the Tories is that they are going to have to explain why they are getting taxpayers to support energy companies rather than imposing a windfall tax on energy companies when it seems so intuitive to do so.

    how can you windfall tax saudi arabia or Qatar?
    We can't, but we can exert *a lot* more diplomatic pressure on them to increase production than we are.
  • AlistairMAlistairM Posts: 1,521
    More and more news emerging of Ukrainian successes. For a number of weeks the Ukrainians have been trying to keep things quiet. There was very little news. That seems to be changing.

    Ukraine’s military is having significant progress at Balakliya.
    The offensive action is already threatening to cut off Russian GLOCs leading to Izium, the key Russian-held point of pressure upon northern Donbas.
    Tucker Carlson remains a master war expert.

    https://twitter.com/IAPonomarenko/status/1567484279554293760
  • A big problem for the Tories is that they are going to have to explain why they are getting taxpayers to support energy companies rather than imposing a windfall tax on energy companies when it seems so intuitive to do so.

    how can you windfall tax saudi arabia or Qatar?

    That's not explaining, it's asking a question.

  • state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 5,140
    edited September 7
    Andy_JS said:

    O/T

    "The suffering of the Chinese people under the ideology of Zero Covid is extraordinary. Lockdown may be a mercifully fading memory for us in the West but it remains the ruthless daily reality for the Chinese. The numbers are staggering. Sixty-eight cities in China are currently in partial or full lockdown. As of last week this includes the megacity of Chengdu, where 21million people have been instructed to stay indoors. Only one person from each household is allowed out to do essential shopping. No exercise, no strolls in the park, no going to work. Briefly nipping out for food is the only civil liberty the people of Chengdu enjoy."

    https://www.spiked-online.com/2022/09/07/the-neverending-nightmare-of-zero-covid/

    ridiculous when we did it and ridiculous when they do it. Shows governments will do anything to save face . We only did it because China did it first . Lockdowns just delay (at huge cost and human suffering) the inevitable
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 10,451

    Dura_Ace said:

    eristdoof said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Carnyx said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Carnyx said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    I don't mind Coffey being a fat drunk. I do mind her being a Roman Catholic anti abortion bigot. a lot.

    Where does she stand on homoeopathy?
    She seems to think chiropractors are mainstream.
    *blinks*

    A UCL chemist should certainly not be sympathetic to the notion of succussation, so good for her if that is so - but chiropractice? (Chiropraxis? Chiropracty?)
    Today program today

    Therese Coffey on radio 4 just now

    ‘ I have to remind you Nick that the majority of healthcare is actually delivered through primary care by doctors, dentists and ….chiropractors .’

    https://twitter.com/helensuth/status/1567415491257405440
    Im sure the Royal College of Nursing is delighted by that statement.
    Mrs Goutfire looks to be a good bet for first out of the Truss cabinet.
    By dismissal or feet first by "full monty" breakfast?
    You can tell just by looking at her that her farts fucking reek. Cf Eamonn Holmes
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 35,319
    Dura_Ace said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    eristdoof said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Carnyx said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Carnyx said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    I don't mind Coffey being a fat drunk. I do mind her being a Roman Catholic anti abortion bigot. a lot.

    Where does she stand on homoeopathy?
    She seems to think chiropractors are mainstream.
    *blinks*

    A UCL chemist should certainly not be sympathetic to the notion of succussation, so good for her if that is so - but chiropractice? (Chiropraxis? Chiropracty?)
    Today program today

    Therese Coffey on radio 4 just now

    ‘ I have to remind you Nick that the majority of healthcare is actually delivered through primary care by doctors, dentists and ….chiropractors .’

    https://twitter.com/helensuth/status/1567415491257405440
    Im sure the Royal College of Nursing is delighted by that statement.
    Mrs Goutfire looks to be a good bet for first out of the Truss cabinet.
    By dismissal or feet first by "full monty" breakfast?
    You can tell just by looking at her that her farts fucking reek. Cf Eamonn Holmes
    I like a cigar so experience informs me that her morning after breath may be considerably worse than her farts.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 57,127
    TOPPING said:

    Sorry if I'm the nth person to ask this - but PMQs in one or two lines pls.

    tia

    Truss did better than widely expected - also had good (off the cuff?) responses to Starmer (Labour raising taxes) and Blackford (wants to increase tax on oilfields he doesn’t want).

    It will be interesting to see how Starmer raises his game - thinking on his feet was never a forte and while “serious plodder” worked against “buffoon” it may not work against another “serious plodder”.
  • MISTYMISTY Posts: 1,594

    A big problem for the Tories is that they are going to have to explain why they are getting taxpayers to support energy companies rather than imposing a windfall tax on energy companies when it seems so intuitive to do so.

    Do you want

    A. More gas

    or

    B. Less gas

    IF you want more gas, we have to let the people that get the gas go and get the gas.
  • Called it.

    Brighton have given permission to Chelsea to talk to Graham Potter.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2022/09/07/chelsea-approach-brighton-speak-graham-potter/
  • IcarusIcarus Posts: 766
    As I feared after Boris Johnson anyone would be an improvement - Liz Truss was very good at PMQs. The problem is her policies though. The markets are not impressed that the promised spending will not be paid for by tax but by extra borrowing - £1 is now $1.14 -0.8% down
  • state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 5,140
    edited September 7
    IanB2 said:

    It is refreshing at least that the new PM appears willing and able to actually address the questions being thrown at her.

    yes i think , a natural part of her character .Lis Truss is very straightforward . Annoys people who like to get annoyed by a hard answer but generally she just is quite direct
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 36,680

    A big problem for the Tories is that they are going to have to explain why they are getting taxpayers to support energy companies rather than imposing a windfall tax on energy companies when it seems so intuitive to do so.

    A big problem for everyone is that most "energy companies" that people might recognise and hand over their cash to are making small profit margins of around 2-3%. Taxing that might wipe out their profits, albeit the quantum of profits is large.

    It is the upstream companies that are making the super-normal profits. Good luck with taxing them.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 36,680

    TOPPING said:

    Sorry if I'm the nth person to ask this - but PMQs in one or two lines pls.

    tia

    Refreshingly non shouty. Ruled out windfall tax. Casual(er) attire - jacket and frilly blouse.
    tyvm
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 6,648
    edited September 7

    A big problem for the Tories is that they are going to have to explain why they are getting taxpayers to support energy companies rather than imposing a windfall tax on energy companies when it seems so intuitive to do so.

    A windfall tax has already been imposed. Any adjustment of the terms of it will raise a very small % of the cost of what is proposed. Then we ask how exactly we are supposed to tax most of the overseas entities we buy from. And why energy companies would bother investing in green energy etc here if we just tax their profits and remove the incentive within that to invest in green. And what we do about them shoving old taxy UK way down the priority list.
    Its foot stamp, pouty politics.
    Subtlty required. Long term 'levies' whilst we transition away from dependence
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 6,648
    IshmaelZ said:

    Main takeaway: now that we have had a new PM at PMQs phatboi suddenly feels like yesterday's man. There is no way on God's green earth he makes his way back, now that we have reminded ourselves what a proper PM looks like. Lay at any price.

    Agreed. He is already yesterdays chip paper
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 3,379
    FPT
    Phil said:

    kle4 said:



    Invading places is hard.

    I like the classical historical approach was to just withdraw, scour the area of supplies, and the invader would then have to retreat.

    I think the Scots outwitted the English that way many times.

    That’s because historically armies relied on foraging in order to feed themselves. So if you scoured an area of supplies, you were making that region impassable to an army of any significant size. Occasionally an army crossing central Europe would over-forage, starve out the local peasantry entirely & find themselves in the unenviable position of having no food source for their return at the end of the season.

    In the modern era armies are supplied by train or by road; the way to destory an army without fighting is to cut off its transport links.
    Which is the basis for the argument that the discovery of the potato was the most significant factor influencing the industrial revolution (grown underground so not vulnerable, cheap in absolute terms, and high calorie to cost ratio) as it allowed for growth in population and labour surplus



  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 36,680
    Phil said:

    Andy_JS said:

    O/T

    "The suffering of the Chinese people under the ideology of Zero Covid is extraordinary. Lockdown may be a mercifully fading memory for us in the West but it remains the ruthless daily reality for the Chinese. The numbers are staggering. Sixty-eight cities in China are currently in partial or full lockdown. As of last week this includes the megacity of Chengdu, where 21million people have been instructed to stay indoors. Only one person from each household is allowed out to do essential shopping. No exercise, no strolls in the park, no going to work. Briefly nipping out for food is the only civil liberty the people of Chengdu enjoy."

    https://www.spiked-online.com/2022/09/07/the-neverending-nightmare-of-zero-covid/

    ridiculous when we did it and ridiculous when they do it. Shows governments will do anything to save face . We only did it because China did it first . Lockdowns just delay (at huge cost and human suffering) the inevitable
    Not this shit again.

    then doing this shit again

    Take your own advice.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 57,127
    Thread:

    I think it's odd that we spent years arguing against all-white and all-male panels / boards / leaders, and when the Tories follow through, a lot of people are saying "well, not THAT kind of diversity!"

    Isn't it gracious to acknowledge Tories have (finally) become more diverse?

    Moreover, this is exactly the right time to ask why the Labour Party is so awful at promoting non-white and female talent - of which it has lots - to senior positions.

    Yes, class-based and educational diversity is important too, but sex and race aren't irrelevant.


    https://twitter.com/sunny_hundal/status/1567490863466512385
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 18,482

    TOPPING said:

    Sorry if I'm the nth person to ask this - but PMQs in one or two lines pls.

    tia

    Truss did well, Starmer did well too!

    Johnson was not missed.
    Thanks. I had also missed it due to work and I value your impressions.

    I still personally feel like we are in a frying pan/fire situation here as far as Johnson/Truss go. And I am instinctively and intellectually opposed to Labour so this is a continuing poor choice for me unless Truss does something truly spectacular (I am not expecting it)
    I am no Conservative, but credit where it is due.

    Lamont on WATO is interesting in as much as he confirms my concerns over Truss's economic narrative.

    I am also socially liberal and Braverman's appointment concerns me.

    I couldn't countenance a majority Corbyn Government any more than I could a majority Johnson Government.

    I would like a change of Government and an assurance by Starmer that a more proportional means of representation will be adopted. An unfettered Johnson Government would be less likely, although a Conservative/ Farage vehicle coalition would not be out of the question. I'd take my chances.
  • AlistairMAlistairM Posts: 1,521

    Andy_JS said:

    O/T

    "The suffering of the Chinese people under the ideology of Zero Covid is extraordinary. Lockdown may be a mercifully fading memory for us in the West but it remains the ruthless daily reality for the Chinese. The numbers are staggering. Sixty-eight cities in China are currently in partial or full lockdown. As of last week this includes the megacity of Chengdu, where 21million people have been instructed to stay indoors. Only one person from each household is allowed out to do essential shopping. No exercise, no strolls in the park, no going to work. Briefly nipping out for food is the only civil liberty the people of Chengdu enjoy."

    https://www.spiked-online.com/2022/09/07/the-neverending-nightmare-of-zero-covid/

    ridiculous when we did it and ridiculous when they do it. Shows governments will do anything to save face . We only did it because China did it first . Lockdowns just delay (at huge cost and human suffering) the inevitable
    Where have all the Zero-Covid zealots in this country gone to? I seem to remember there were many but they are very silent now.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 23,148
    Chaps - one swallow does not make a summer.

    Mrs May made a pretty good speech when becoming PM and a decent fist of her first PMQs as well.

    There's more to being a effective PM than that.
  • ClippPClippP Posts: 1,336
    TOPPING said:

    Sorry if I'm the nth person to ask this - but PMQs in one or two lines pls. tia

    Much more civil than formerly. This may, in time, have an effect on the rowdy Tory backbenchers.

    I was favourably impressed by Truss - not to extent of voting for her lot, of course. But we could be seeing the return of decency in the Tory ranks, at least in terms of behaviour, if not in policy.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 18,482

    Called it.

    Brighton have given permission to Chelsea to talk to Graham Potter.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2022/09/07/chelsea-approach-brighton-speak-graham-potter/

    Is it me or does Potter resemble Abramovitch? Has anyone seen them together in the same room?
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 36,680
    Cyclefree said:

    Chaps - one swallow does not make a summer.

    Mrs May made a pretty good speech when becoming PM and a decent fist of her first PMQs as well.

    There's more to being a effective PM than that.

    True. But that's all we have at the moment.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 6,648
    Cyclefree said:

    Chaps - one swallow does not make a summer.

    Mrs May made a pretty good speech when becoming PM and a decent fist of her first PMQs as well.

    There's more to being a effective PM than that.

    OTOH if im looking for a royal flush, turning over the Queen of hearts first is a good start
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 35,319
    Cyclefree said:

    Chaps - one swallow does not make a summer.

    Mrs May made a pretty good speech when becoming PM and a decent fist of her first PMQs as well.

    There's more to being a effective PM than that.

    Good point, I recall that there were virtually multiple orgasms on here at May's 'remind you of anyone' line.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 81,407
    edited September 7
    AlistairM said:

    Andy_JS said:

    O/T

    "The suffering of the Chinese people under the ideology of Zero Covid is extraordinary. Lockdown may be a mercifully fading memory for us in the West but it remains the ruthless daily reality for the Chinese. The numbers are staggering. Sixty-eight cities in China are currently in partial or full lockdown. As of last week this includes the megacity of Chengdu, where 21million people have been instructed to stay indoors. Only one person from each household is allowed out to do essential shopping. No exercise, no strolls in the park, no going to work. Briefly nipping out for food is the only civil liberty the people of Chengdu enjoy."

    https://www.spiked-online.com/2022/09/07/the-neverending-nightmare-of-zero-covid/

    ridiculous when we did it and ridiculous when they do it. Shows governments will do anything to save face . We only did it because China did it first . Lockdowns just delay (at huge cost and human suffering) the inevitable
    Where have all the Zero-Covid zealots in this country gone to? I seem to remember there were many but they are very silent now.
    As an emergency measure when the health system was at the point of collapse lockdown was a regrettable but necessary measure, as voluntary stuff at the time (pre-vaccine) would not bring cases down in the way lockdown did.

    However, it was then the case that some were calling for reimplementation too soon, or not ending it soon enough, when mitigation and treatment was more effective, and the ongoing costs of lockdown were adding up.

    It is to the government's credit that it did take such an urgent measure, but also that at least on a few occasions it resisted doing so at other times when people were calling for it, as politically there would easily have been support for it.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 36,680
    As an ex-Tory who resigned from the party over Johnson and the direction he took the Cons after 2019 I must say that despite many who say she will be a disaster, and there being others in the Cons leadership race who I believe would have made good PMs, I am nevertheless feeling an overwhelming sense of relief that Johnson is gone and we will have a different type of Conservative Party. And yes I know that Truss is seen as continuity BoJo.

    JRM is a huge error but perhaps he has been put there as a lightening conductor. I hope.
  • state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 5,140
    Phil said:

    Andy_JS said:

    O/T

    "The suffering of the Chinese people under the ideology of Zero Covid is extraordinary. Lockdown may be a mercifully fading memory for us in the West but it remains the ruthless daily reality for the Chinese. The numbers are staggering. Sixty-eight cities in China are currently in partial or full lockdown. As of last week this includes the megacity of Chengdu, where 21million people have been instructed to stay indoors. Only one person from each household is allowed out to do essential shopping. No exercise, no strolls in the park, no going to work. Briefly nipping out for food is the only civil liberty the people of Chengdu enjoy."

    https://www.spiked-online.com/2022/09/07/the-neverending-nightmare-of-zero-covid/

    ridiculous when we did it and ridiculous when they do it. Shows governments will do anything to save face . We only did it because China did it first . Lockdowns just delay (at huge cost and human suffering) the inevitable
    Not this shit again.

    The lockdowns in the UK pre-vaccines were brought on by necessity - the death rates if covid rates had spiked beyond the healthcare system’s capacity to cope would have been far, far worse.

    China is caught on the horns of a dilemma. They haven’t vaccinated their population effectively, so they either lockdown or suffer Covid waves that overwhelm their healthcare capacity and cause the avoidable deaths of millions. The real failure here is the failure to vaccinate & that seems completely inexplicible to me.

    well it is this again because we had lockdowns after the vaccines as well. Totally unecessary and an abuse of state power .Lockdowns the government couldn't even be arsed to observe themselves yet expected others to do . i expect the Chinese top brass are not under lockdown and such is the hypocrisy of governments everywhere with the do as we say not as we do mantle
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 104,543
    edited September 7
    Cyclefree said:

    Chaps - one swallow does not make a summer.

    Mrs May made a pretty good speech when becoming PM and a decent fist of her first PMQs as well.

    There's more to being a effective PM than that.

    Indeed, I think Truss has already made a fatal mistake.

    JRM as the person in charge/public face of energy prices during this crisis is a bit of a howler.

    Would have been better off making Josef Fritzl minister for women and children.
  • OnboardG1OnboardG1 Posts: 1,230
    edited September 7
    @Dura_Ace and the PB car club, I collected my new replacement for my ageing Punto on Saturday. Bought a Mazda 3 saloon. I’ve been impressed so far. Not far off the C series I rented a while ago comfort and build quality wise, and gets 50mpg with a new engine off a four banger. Their engines are fiendishly clever. Means my MX5 can spend time as a weekend car.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 36,680
    ClippP said:

    TOPPING said:

    Sorry if I'm the nth person to ask this - but PMQs in one or two lines pls. tia

    Much more civil than formerly. This may, in time, have an effect on the rowdy Tory backbenchers.

    I was favourably impressed by Truss - not to extent of voting for her lot, of course. But we could be seeing the return of decency in the Tory ranks, at least in terms of behaviour, if not in policy.
    tx
  • Called it.

    Brighton have given permission to Chelsea to talk to Graham Potter.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2022/09/07/chelsea-approach-brighton-speak-graham-potter/

    Why would he want to take a step down?
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 18,482
    edited September 7
    Cyclefree said:

    Chaps - one swallow does not make a summer.

    Mrs May made a pretty good speech when becoming PM and a decent fist of her first PMQs as well.

    There's more to being a effective PM than that.

    The relief that normal service appears to be resumed after the clown chaos of Johnson makes the performance appear even better than it was. The ruling out of the windfall tax is a big error, as is Mogg and Braverman.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 81,407

    Cyclefree said:

    Chaps - one swallow does not make a summer.

    Mrs May made a pretty good speech when becoming PM and a decent fist of her first PMQs as well.

    There's more to being a effective PM than that.

    OTOH if im looking for a royal flush, turning over the Queen of hearts first is a good start
    I wouldn't go all in on just the first card though.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    Cyclefree said:

    Chaps - one swallow does not make a summer.

    Mrs May made a pretty good speech when becoming PM and a decent fist of her first PMQs as well.

    There's more to being a effective PM than that.

    Good point, I recall that there were virtually multiple orgasms on here at May's 'remind you of anyone' line.
    Really? I thought it was creepy AF, despite being a nominal tory at the time.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 35,319
    Hmm..

    A small step forward, and it would have been a terrible look to deny the SNP the right to intervene even in these 'make the Nats illegal' times.

  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 6,648
    kle4 said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Chaps - one swallow does not make a summer.

    Mrs May made a pretty good speech when becoming PM and a decent fist of her first PMQs as well.

    There's more to being a effective PM than that.

    OTOH if im looking for a royal flush, turning over the Queen of hearts first is a good start
    I wouldn't go all in on just the first card though.
    Agreed! But id be relieved it wasnt the duece of puce
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 36,680
    edited September 7

    Cyclefree said:

    Chaps - one swallow does not make a summer.

    Mrs May made a pretty good speech when becoming PM and a decent fist of her first PMQs as well.

    There's more to being a effective PM than that.

    The relief that normal service appears to be resumed after the clown chaos of Johnson makes the performance appear even better than it was. The ruling out of the windfall tax is a big error.
    Downstream energy company profits are around 2% (£80/£3,500. Source: More or Less, last Sunday).

    Tax them too much and you will push them into loss.

    Not sure that is what people want, is it?
  • OnboardG1OnboardG1 Posts: 1,230

    Cyclefree said:

    Chaps - one swallow does not make a summer.

    Mrs May made a pretty good speech when becoming PM and a decent fist of her first PMQs as well.

    There's more to being a effective PM than that.

    OTOH if im looking for a royal flush, turning over the Queen of hearts first is a good start
    But having the knave of clubs in hand is not.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 42,968

    The ruling out of the windfall tax is a big error,

    Why? If as others have pointed out, the excess profits are not being made here, then a windfall tax is just a hollow populist gesture.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    Hmm..

    A small step forward, and it would have been a terrible look to deny the SNP the right to intervene even in these 'make the Nats illegal' times.

    Well, hang on, whose case is it in the first place?
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 104,543
    edited September 7

    Hmm..

    A small step forward, and it would have been a terrible look to deny the SNP the right to intervene even in these 'make the Nats illegal' times.

    No oral submissions though.

    Bit of a blow for the SNP.

    Oh get your minds out of the gutter.


  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 23,148
    TOPPING said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Chaps - one swallow does not make a summer.

    Mrs May made a pretty good speech when becoming PM and a decent fist of her first PMQs as well.

    There's more to being a effective PM than that.

    True. But that's all we have at the moment.
    Well I'm reserving judgment.

    I was right about the Tories choosing her. https://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2021/09/20/one-current-leader-and-one-future-one/

    She starts behind for me because of some of her appointments, her views on ethical standards and her record which is largely poor.

    But let's see what she does now.
  • PhilPhil Posts: 1,132
    edited September 7

    FPT

    Phil said:

    kle4 said:



    Invading places is hard.

    I like the classical historical approach was to just withdraw, scour the area of supplies, and the invader would then have to retreat.

    I think the Scots outwitted the English that way many times.

    That’s because historically armies relied on foraging in order to feed themselves. So if you scoured an area of supplies, you were making that region impassable to an army of any significant size. Occasionally an army crossing central Europe would over-forage, starve out the local peasantry entirely & find themselves in the unenviable position of having no food source for their return at the end of the season.

    In the modern era armies are supplied by train or by road; the way to destory an army without fighting is to cut off its transport links.
    Which is the basis for the argument that the discovery of the potato was the most significant factor influencing the industrial revolution (grown underground so not vulnerable, cheap in absolute terms, and high calorie to cost ratio) as it allowed for growth in population and labour surplus



    Ah, to be clear: the military understanding of the term “foraging” at the time meant the taking of food stores built up by the peasantry. This is why military campaigns tended to be timed so that you ran out of your initial food stocks shortly after the first harvest of the year - you rode in, took as much of the harvest as you deemed appropriate & moved on to the next village. No military operated by actually harvesting the crops themselves: that’s far too slow & leaves you vulnerable to counter-attack.

    I suspect they would just as happily have taken potato stocks as they would wheat, barley or oat stocks. Anything portable and resistant to rot would do. The potato’s effect on society was more down to its enormously improved calorie yield per acre compared with other crops, plus the fact that you could grow them almost anywhere.
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 5,513

    Called it.

    Brighton have given permission to Chelsea to talk to Graham Potter.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2022/09/07/chelsea-approach-brighton-speak-graham-potter/

    Very disappointing. However, Brighton will be awash with even more money, having sold Cucurella and Bissouma for vast sums.
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 4,121
    Truss did well at PMQs. This is however her first go. Theresa May (yes, that Theresa May) absolutely destroyed Corbyn in her first PMQs and many people left expecting great things from her off the back of one performance.

    It’s likely (though not a certainty) Truss’ performances will slip. New PMs know that their first PMQs is important for them and they will prepare and over-prepare for them. Once they are down to the day to day of governing they won’t have the luxury of being able to do this so much.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 36,680
    Cyclefree said:

    TOPPING said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Chaps - one swallow does not make a summer.

    Mrs May made a pretty good speech when becoming PM and a decent fist of her first PMQs as well.

    There's more to being a effective PM than that.

    True. But that's all we have at the moment.
    Well I'm reserving judgment.

    I was right about the Tories choosing her. https://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2021/09/20/one-current-leader-and-one-future-one/

    She starts behind for me because of some of her appointments, her views on ethical standards and her record which is largely poor.

    But let's see what she does now.
    I think that is the sensible approach; it is mine also, although as noted above, I am also very, very relieved that BoJO is out which means that there is a 1/2 oz weight on the scales helping things along.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 42,968
    Ukrainian tanks entering Yakovenkove in Kharkiv Oblast.

    https://twitter.com/Militarylandnet/status/1567486096853852163
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 35,319
    edited September 7
    IshmaelZ said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Chaps - one swallow does not make a summer.

    Mrs May made a pretty good speech when becoming PM and a decent fist of her first PMQs as well.

    There's more to being a effective PM than that.

    Good point, I recall that there were virtually multiple orgasms on here at May's 'remind you of anyone' line.
    Really? I thought it was creepy AF, despite being a nominal tory at the time.
    'Nominal' Tory probably covers the not having multiple orgasms option (in this case).
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 59,665
    Mr. Twelve, to be fair, May was on for a 200 seat majority before she annihilated her own campaign.
  • WOW.

    They cannot repeat the Lord Advocate's own arguments.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 18,482
    TOPPING said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Chaps - one swallow does not make a summer.

    Mrs May made a pretty good speech when becoming PM and a decent fist of her first PMQs as well.

    There's more to being a effective PM than that.

    The relief that normal service appears to be resumed after the clown chaos of Johnson makes the performance appear even better than it was. The ruling out of the windfall tax is a big error.
    Downstream energy company profits are around 2% (£80/£3,500. Source: More or Less, last Sunday).

    Tax them too much and you will push them into loss.

    Not sure that is what people want, is it?
    I think that is a false narrative. Upstream and downstream companies often share the same name. The key is taxing "profits".
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 6,648

    Cyclefree said:

    Chaps - one swallow does not make a summer.

    Mrs May made a pretty good speech when becoming PM and a decent fist of her first PMQs as well.

    There's more to being a effective PM than that.

    The relief that normal service appears to be resumed after the clown chaos of Johnson makes the performance appear even better than it was. The ruling out of the windfall tax is a big error, as is Mogg and Braverman.
    Its really not. A long term levy makes much more sense. A second windfall tax in a year bringing in maybe 8 billion quid is utterly irrelevant to the situation.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 36,680

    Truss did well at PMQs. This is however her first go. Theresa May (yes, that Theresa May) absolutely destroyed Corbyn in her first PMQs and many people left expecting great things from her off the back of one performance.

    It’s likely (though not a certainty) Truss’ performances will slip. New PMs know that their first PMQs is important for them and they will prepare and over-prepare for them. Once they are down to the day to day of governing they won’t have the luxury of being able to do this so much.

    The same (insider) person who said that May was useless and would be found out in short order also told me that Truss would be a disaster. I hope they are wrong for the country's sake. No time for fucking around now, shit is serious.
  • TOPPING said:

    Sorry if I'm the nth person to ask this - but PMQs in one or two lines pls.

    tia

    Looked flakey at first in a 'first day at the office' kind of way. Improved steadily, helped by some indifferent work by the LOTO and an absolute zinger from T May (worth checking out). Finished strongly.

    She'll be ok, although PMQs not exactly her biggest headache.
This discussion has been closed.