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Starmer v Truss – the first PMQs – politicalbetting.com

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  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 47,042
    biggles said:

    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-08-30/uk-predicts-up-to-170-billion-excess-profits-for-energy-firms

    UK gas producers and electricity generators may make excess profits totaling as much as £170 billion ($199 billion) over the next two years, according to Treasury estimates that lay bare the revenue-raising potential of a windfall tax.

    Treasury officials will deliver the assessment to the next prime minister when they take office on Sept. 6, according to a person familiar with the matter, who asked not to be identified discussing internal calculations.

    What is an “excess profit”? Who is to say it is “excess”? How much profit is one allowed to make? Might one not reframe this as “investment in energy sector to soar, and pension funds to benefit, as energy sector firms make record profit”?
    The government, of course, as they are the ones who would levy it.
    The level and extent would be a pragmatic rather than a principled decision.
  • I can see the universe in which Liz Truss could win another majority.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 28,779

    OnboardG1 said:

    biggles said:

    ping said:

    biggles said:

    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-08-30/uk-predicts-up-to-170-billion-excess-profits-for-energy-firms

    UK gas producers and electricity generators may make excess profits totaling as much as £170 billion ($199 billion) over the next two years, according to Treasury estimates that lay bare the revenue-raising potential of a windfall tax.

    Treasury officials will deliver the assessment to the next prime minister when they take office on Sept. 6, according to a person familiar with the matter, who asked not to be identified discussing internal calculations.

    What is an “excess profit”? Who is to say it is “excess”? How much profit is one allowed to make? Might one not reframe this as “investment in energy sector to soar, and pension funds to benefit, as energy sector firms make record profit”?
    They’re unearned war profits. Easily measured.

    See Sunak’s speech, earlier in the year.
    Is the reverse then true? Should the Gvt underwrite “excess losses”?

    Well we own Octopus energy for that reason. And a bank.
    And the railway companies
    Infrastructure, and some companies, but not all surely.
  • StockyStocky Posts: 8,712

    I can see the universe in which Liz Truss could win another majority.

    So can I but I'd want more than 4/1.
  • biggles said:

    ping said:

    biggles said:

    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-08-30/uk-predicts-up-to-170-billion-excess-profits-for-energy-firms

    UK gas producers and electricity generators may make excess profits totaling as much as £170 billion ($199 billion) over the next two years, according to Treasury estimates that lay bare the revenue-raising potential of a windfall tax.

    Treasury officials will deliver the assessment to the next prime minister when they take office on Sept. 6, according to a person familiar with the matter, who asked not to be identified discussing internal calculations.

    What is an “excess profit”? Who is to say it is “excess”? How much profit is one allowed to make? Might one not reframe this as “investment in energy sector to soar, and pension funds to benefit, as energy sector firms make record profit”?
    They’re unearned war profits. Easily measured.

    See Sunak’s speech, earlier in the year.
    Is the reverse then true? Should the Gvt underwrite “excess losses”?

    They kind of did with furlough and other interventions during the pandemic.
  • pingping Posts: 3,282
    edited September 2022
    Stocky said:

    Sandpit said:

    Watching on a delay. Three questions in, and I’m liking this Prime Minister already.

    She's good. I've said she is being underestimated and written-off too early. LP questions are appearing a tad negative and uncharitable. Whether we agree with her policies or not, let's rejoice that she is no shopping-trolley.
    I disagree. I think she’s the ultimate shopping trolley. The “rigid ideologue” thing is her necessary facade. A kind of externalised psychological coping mechanism to disguise the fact she’s constantly changing her mind.

    Her opinions and ideology have been entirely self serving, throughout her career. She’ll do what she thinks she has to do to hold on to power, perhaps even more ruthlessly and blatantly than any previous PM.

    She’s the ultimate shopping trolley, imo.
  • Carnyx said:

    OnboardG1 said:

    biggles said:

    ping said:

    biggles said:

    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-08-30/uk-predicts-up-to-170-billion-excess-profits-for-energy-firms

    UK gas producers and electricity generators may make excess profits totaling as much as £170 billion ($199 billion) over the next two years, according to Treasury estimates that lay bare the revenue-raising potential of a windfall tax.

    Treasury officials will deliver the assessment to the next prime minister when they take office on Sept. 6, according to a person familiar with the matter, who asked not to be identified discussing internal calculations.

    What is an “excess profit”? Who is to say it is “excess”? How much profit is one allowed to make? Might one not reframe this as “investment in energy sector to soar, and pension funds to benefit, as energy sector firms make record profit”?
    They’re unearned war profits. Easily measured.

    See Sunak’s speech, earlier in the year.
    Is the reverse then true? Should the Gvt underwrite “excess losses”?

    Well we own Octopus energy for that reason. And a bank.
    And the railway companies
    Infrastructure, and some companies, but not all surely.
    We guaranteed their payments so they wouldn't go bust, we did that for all companies
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 47,042
    Carnyx said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    I don't mind Coffey being a fat drunk. I do mind her being a Roman Catholic anti abortion bigot. a lot.

    Where does she stand on homoeopathy?
    Directly on top of it, I hope.
    It needs squashing.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    Carnyx said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Carnyx said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    I don't mind Coffey being a fat drunk. I do mind her being a Roman Catholic anti abortion bigot. a lot.

    Where does she stand on homoeopathy?
    She seems to think chiropractors are mainstream.
    *blinks*

    A UCL chemist should certainly not be sympathetic to the notion of succussation, so good for her if that is so - but chiropractice? (Chiropraxis? Chiropracty?)
    Today program today

    Therese Coffey on radio 4 just now

    ‘ I have to remind you Nick that the majority of healthcare is actually delivered through primary care by doctors, dentists and ….chiropractors .’

    https://twitter.com/helensuth/status/1567415491257405440
  • Unpopular said:

    biggles said:

    ping said:

    biggles said:

    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-08-30/uk-predicts-up-to-170-billion-excess-profits-for-energy-firms

    UK gas producers and electricity generators may make excess profits totaling as much as £170 billion ($199 billion) over the next two years, according to Treasury estimates that lay bare the revenue-raising potential of a windfall tax.

    Treasury officials will deliver the assessment to the next prime minister when they take office on Sept. 6, according to a person familiar with the matter, who asked not to be identified discussing internal calculations.

    What is an “excess profit”? Who is to say it is “excess”? How much profit is one allowed to make? Might one not reframe this as “investment in energy sector to soar, and pension funds to benefit, as energy sector firms make record profit”?
    They’re unearned war profits. Easily measured.

    See Sunak’s speech, earlier in the year.
    Is the reverse then true? Should the Gvt underwrite “excess losses”?

    They kind of did with furlough and other interventions during the pandemic.
    Apologies, don't know how to edit a post. I meant to say 'they kind of did with hospitality and other industries'. I wasn't specifically talking about energy companies with that post.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 20,393
    edited September 2022
    Sky News's "Truss day 1 poll": Lab 39.7%, Con 32.4%.
  • The dividing lines are very sharp. This is good. The UK (actually, England) needs to decide whether it wants to be America or Europe.

    That's what I was thinking after her short introductory speech. Whatever you think about her plans, and my views aren't good, after Johnson she at least brings some sort of clarity to things, which, in the short term at least, almost feels like some kind of a relief from the wandering Johnsonian opportunism and void.

    I could not agree more. I watched the exchange, and it was far more informative and, therefore, consequential than anything we got with Johnson. There is no gaping divide in personality, background or life experience between Truss and Starner. That may end up improving the quality of political discourse, which cannot be anything other than positive (and which, I think, will also favour him (but I would say that)).

  • The contrast between Johnson and Truss is stark and just highlights why Johnson should never come back and conservative mps need to be grateful that Truss may just save their seats
  • Jim_MillerJim_Miller Posts: 1,055
    FWIW, the NYT doesn't like the US much, either. And they have lost some talent because of that, notably Bari Weiss: https://www.bariweiss.com/resignation-letter

    (She's not always right, but she's always worth reading.)

    Also FWIW, the Washington Post has a far larger range of opinion writers than the NYT, which is one of the reasons I subscribe to the Post, rather than the Times.
  • I can see the universe in which Liz Truss could win another majority.

    One swallow doesn't make a summer, but this PMQs makes me realise how poor Johnson was at times.
  • We have two seemingly decent and hard-working people as PM.

    They have come from humble backgrounds and are in positions of influence and power.

    That is a good thing. They got there on merit.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 47,042
    ping said:

    Stocky said:

    Sandpit said:

    Watching on a delay. Three questions in, and I’m liking this Prime Minister already.

    She's good. I've said she is being underestimated and written-off too early. LP questions are appearing a tad negative and uncharitable. Whether we agree with her policies or not, let's rejoice that she is no shopping-trolley.
    I disagree. I think she’s the ultimate shopping trolley. The “rigid ideologue” thing is her necessary facade. A kind of externalised psychological coping mechanism to disguise the fact she’s constantly changing her mind.

    Her opinions and ideology have been entirely self serving, throughout her career. She’ll do what she thinks she has to do to hold on to power, perhaps even more ruthlessly and blatantly than any previous PM.

    She’s the ultimate shopping trolley, imo.
    Those changes of direction were purposeful, even if you find the purpose disagreeable.
    Shopping trolleys are in contrast utterly random.
  • nico679nico679 Posts: 2,624

    I can see the universe in which Liz Truss could win another majority.

    I agree . There’s two years before a GE and a lot can happen . Certainly those writing her off are being very premature .
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 7,280

    We are at a real crossroads here which is good for us all.

    It's America or EU social democracy.

    We don't have the capitalist zeal of the Americans but we're too free spirited for continental statism. So no.
  • The dividing lines are very sharp. This is good. The UK (actually, England) needs to decide whether it wants to be America or Europe.

    Neither. Closer to Europe than America in most ways but not a typical European country either. And there are places outside of Europe and America that are making massive investments in education, technology and infrastructure that we should be looking at too.

    Yes, but there is a fundamental question: do we want US levels of taxation and the resulting public services and infrastructure; or European levels? It's early days, but it seems to me that is the dividing line that is emerging. It's one that has been ducked for far too long.

  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 28,779

    We have two seemingly decent and hard-working people as PM.

    They have come from humble backgrounds and are in positions of influence and power.

    That is a good thing. They got there on merit.

    Two? This is the Roman Republic?
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    "Talking down" always a shit line. always.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 42,433
    Theresa May with a brilliant softball on women PMs, to loud applause from the Tory benches.
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 7,459
    edited September 2022
    ping said:

    Stocky said:

    Sandpit said:

    Watching on a delay. Three questions in, and I’m liking this Prime Minister already.

    She's good. I've said she is being underestimated and written-off too early. LP questions are appearing a tad negative and uncharitable. Whether we agree with her policies or not, let's rejoice that she is no shopping-trolley.
    I disagree. I think she’s the ultimate shopping trolley. The “rigid ideologue” thing is her necessary facade. A kind of externalised psychological coping mechanism to disguise the fact she’s constantly changing her mind.

    Her opinions and ideology have been entirely self serving, throughout her career. She’ll do what she thinks she has to do to hold on to power, perhaps even more ruthlessly and blatantly than any previous PM.

    She’s the ultimate shopping trolley, imo.
    I can see this point of view, but compared to Johnson, even the fact that she seems prepared to defend positions in the short or medium term seems refreshing. It's difficult to overstate how depressing it is to watch someone continually and shamelessly shift their position every day, for three years, so perhaps she's also doing well purely by comparison.

    It'll be interesting to see how much she sticks to her guns.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 47,042
    IshmaelZ said:

    Carnyx said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Carnyx said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    I don't mind Coffey being a fat drunk. I do mind her being a Roman Catholic anti abortion bigot. a lot.

    Where does she stand on homoeopathy?
    She seems to think chiropractors are mainstream.
    *blinks*

    A UCL chemist should certainly not be sympathetic to the notion of succussation, so good for her if that is so - but chiropractice? (Chiropraxis? Chiropracty?)
    Today program today

    Therese Coffey on radio 4 just now

    ‘ I have to remind you Nick that the majority of healthcare is actually delivered through primary care by doctors, dentists and ….chiropractors .’

    https://twitter.com/helensuth/status/1567415491257405440
    Based on her personal experience, perhaps ?

  • bigglesbiggles Posts: 2,656
    Unpopular said:

    biggles said:

    ping said:

    biggles said:

    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-08-30/uk-predicts-up-to-170-billion-excess-profits-for-energy-firms

    UK gas producers and electricity generators may make excess profits totaling as much as £170 billion ($199 billion) over the next two years, according to Treasury estimates that lay bare the revenue-raising potential of a windfall tax.

    Treasury officials will deliver the assessment to the next prime minister when they take office on Sept. 6, according to a person familiar with the matter, who asked not to be identified discussing internal calculations.

    What is an “excess profit”? Who is to say it is “excess”? How much profit is one allowed to make? Might one not reframe this as “investment in energy sector to soar, and pension funds to benefit, as energy sector firms make record profit”?
    They’re unearned war profits. Easily measured.

    See Sunak’s speech, earlier in the year.
    Is the reverse then true? Should the Gvt underwrite “excess losses”?

    They kind of did with furlough and other interventions during the pandemic.
    Yup, and there are consequences to that. Frankly, see also the financial crash. Some firms need to fail to allow capitalism to do its job, and we are starting to forget that. No easy answer but I think we were a little protective for the long term good.

  • Carnyx said:

    I quite like the idea of a truss tax: the more trusses there are in your roof, the more tax you pay.

    It'll be a friendly nod back to the days of the ever-popular window tax.

    Damn, paid for a special extra third truss in my new shed to deal with snow loading a couple of years back.
    I was amused yesterday, when apparently the first thing that came to ? @Richard_Tyndall ?'s mind in respect to 'truss' was the medical truss. That would never have occurred to me: roofing or bridge trusses all the way for me. ;)
  • The government is shelving Dominic Raab's Bill of Rights. Sources have told the BBC that the government is ‘reviewing the most effective means to deliver objectives through our legislative agenda’ and the Bill of Rights is ‘unlikely to progress in its current form.’

    https://twitter.com/BBCDanielS/status/1567476593907359746

    Harry Cole tweeting that government insiders describe it as “a mess”.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 28,779
    edited September 2022
    Nigelb said:

    Carnyx said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    I don't mind Coffey being a fat drunk. I do mind her being a Roman Catholic anti abortion bigot. a lot.

    Where does she stand on homoeopathy?
    Directly on top of it, I hope.
    It needs squashing.
    The problem with it is it is so cheap - just distilled water and one pill of each drug for all the NHS. Tempting.
  • Good performance by Liz overall 👍
  • StockyStocky Posts: 8,712
    Nigelb said:

    ping said:

    Stocky said:

    Sandpit said:

    Watching on a delay. Three questions in, and I’m liking this Prime Minister already.

    She's good. I've said she is being underestimated and written-off too early. LP questions are appearing a tad negative and uncharitable. Whether we agree with her policies or not, let's rejoice that she is no shopping-trolley.
    I disagree. I think she’s the ultimate shopping trolley. The “rigid ideologue” thing is her necessary facade. A kind of externalised psychological coping mechanism to disguise the fact she’s constantly changing her mind.

    Her opinions and ideology have been entirely self serving, throughout her career. She’ll do what she thinks she has to do to hold on to power, perhaps even more ruthlessly and blatantly than any previous PM.

    She’s the ultimate shopping trolley, imo.
    Those changes of direction were purposeful, even if you find the purpose disagreeable.
    Shopping trolleys are in contrast utterly random.
    Random ideologically yes, but not entirely random. Populist, media -driven and coming from Johnson's unwillingness to be disliked. He was a weak leader.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 107,147

    The dividing lines are very sharp. This is good. The UK (actually, England) needs to decide whether it wants to be America or Europe.

    Neither. Closer to Europe than America in most ways but not a typical European country either. And there are places outside of Europe and America that are making massive investments in education, technology and infrastructure that we should be looking at too.

    Yes, but there is a fundamental question: do we want US levels of taxation and the resulting public services and infrastructure; or European levels? It's early days, but it seems to me that is the dividing line that is emerging. It's one that has been ducked for far too long.

    Depends which European levels, Switzerland for example has significantly lower tax than we do and also more private insurance for healthcare
  • bigglesbiggles Posts: 2,656
    IshmaelZ said:

    Carnyx said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Carnyx said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    I don't mind Coffey being a fat drunk. I do mind her being a Roman Catholic anti abortion bigot. a lot.

    Where does she stand on homoeopathy?
    She seems to think chiropractors are mainstream.
    *blinks*

    A UCL chemist should certainly not be sympathetic to the notion of succussation, so good for her if that is so - but chiropractice? (Chiropraxis? Chiropracty?)
    Today program today

    Therese Coffey on radio 4 just now

    ‘ I have to remind you Nick that the majority of healthcare is actually delivered through primary care by doctors, dentists and ….chiropractors .’

    https://twitter.com/helensuth/status/1567415491257405440
    Hopefully she meant chiropodists and we are about to see some long overdue investment in the nation’s feet.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    I can see the universe in which Liz Truss could win another majority.

    One swallow doesn't make a summer, but this PMQs makes me realise how poor Johnson was at times.
    I think his odds of a comeback should lengthen drastically after this.
  • HYUFD said:

    The dividing lines are very sharp. This is good. The UK (actually, England) needs to decide whether it wants to be America or Europe.

    Neither. Closer to Europe than America in most ways but not a typical European country either. And there are places outside of Europe and America that are making massive investments in education, technology and infrastructure that we should be looking at too.

    Yes, but there is a fundamental question: do we want US levels of taxation and the resulting public services and infrastructure; or European levels? It's early days, but it seems to me that is the dividing line that is emerging. It's one that has been ducked for far too long.

    Depends which European levels, Switzerland for example has significantly lower tax than we do and also more private insurance for healthcare
    Oddly they've not chosen to privatise their railways, Bart has assured me all sensible countries have
  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 6,901
    ping said:

    Stocky said:

    Sandpit said:

    Watching on a delay. Three questions in, and I’m liking this Prime Minister already.

    She's good. I've said she is being underestimated and written-off too early. LP questions are appearing a tad negative and uncharitable. Whether we agree with her policies or not, let's rejoice that she is no shopping-trolley.
    I disagree. I think she’s the ultimate shopping trolley. The “rigid ideologue” thing is her necessary facade. A kind of externalised psychological coping mechanism to disguise the fact she’s constantly changing her mind.

    Her opinions and ideology have been entirely self serving, throughout her career. She’ll do what she thinks she has to do to hold on to power, perhaps even more ruthlessly and blatantly than any previous PM.

    She’s the ultimate shopping trolley, imo.
    I am inclined to agree with you, Liz is a shopping trolley.

    But, it worked for that other prominent CND member, who became a self-serving PM ... Tony Blair.

    It is one thing to be a member of Oxford University Liberal Democrats, but another to be President of OULDs and a member of the national executive committee of Liberal Democrat Youth and Students ... and then move so quickly Tory-wards.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 6,649

    I can see the universe in which Liz Truss could win another majority.

    Certainly the right wing press will press the 'just like Margaret she has been underestimated' buttons and hammer every little thing as 'a return to Tory values'. That in itself wont be enough. How she handles the inevitable looming scandals (think those on suspension) and indiscipline generally will be key, as will any by election results resulting from Boris honours list.
    Realistically her route to a majority is to restore the Blue Wall and throw enough red meat to partially defend the Red, relying on the long term trend there to hit the brakes and resist on any reversal.
    Its not impossible but its a hell of a tough ask. Stopping Labour having a stable governmemt is probably best case scenario - Tories 290ish seats
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 28,779

    Carnyx said:

    I quite like the idea of a truss tax: the more trusses there are in your roof, the more tax you pay.

    It'll be a friendly nod back to the days of the ever-popular window tax.

    Damn, paid for a special extra third truss in my new shed to deal with snow loading a couple of years back.
    I was amused yesterday, when apparently the first thing that came to ? @Richard_Tyndall ?'s mind in respect to 'truss' was the medical truss. That would never have occurred to me: roofing or bridge trusses all the way for me. ;)
    There's also the culinary one (poultry); I leave it to the likes of TSE if there is an, erm, alternative meaning.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 107,147
    edited September 2022

    The contrast between Johnson and Truss is stark and just highlights why Johnson should never come back and conservative mps need to be grateful that Truss may just save their seats

    That is quite the statement BigG, we await the weekend polling to see whether it is true.

    I expect Truss to get a bounce like most new PMs but would be surprised to see the Tories ahead, especially with Truss having a more rightwing Cabinet even than Boris' and much more of a laissez-faire one
  • Well we own Octopus energy for that reason. And a bank.

    Octopus Energy is not nationalised.

  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    biggles said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Carnyx said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Carnyx said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    I don't mind Coffey being a fat drunk. I do mind her being a Roman Catholic anti abortion bigot. a lot.

    Where does she stand on homoeopathy?
    She seems to think chiropractors are mainstream.
    *blinks*

    A UCL chemist should certainly not be sympathetic to the notion of succussation, so good for her if that is so - but chiropractice? (Chiropraxis? Chiropracty?)
    Today program today

    Therese Coffey on radio 4 just now

    ‘ I have to remind you Nick that the majority of healthcare is actually delivered through primary care by doctors, dentists and ….chiropractors .’

    https://twitter.com/helensuth/status/1567415491257405440
    Hopefully she meant chiropodists and we are about to see some long overdue investment in the nation’s feet.
    Well OK, but can she tell paediatricians from paedophiles, in that case?
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 42,433

    FWIW, the NYT doesn't like the US much, either. And they have lost some talent because of that, notably Bari Weiss: https://www.bariweiss.com/resignation-letter

    (She's not always right, but she's always worth reading.)

    Also FWIW, the Washington Post has a far larger range of opinion writers than the NYT, which is one of the reasons I subscribe to the Post, rather than the Times.

    The Post is better than the Times, which a rather low bar at the moment, but they also have their own issues, hiring people like Taylor Lorenz.
    https://thepostmillennial.com/the-washington-post-plans-to-dox-libs-of-tik-tok-in-new-hit-piece-by-taylor-lorenz
  • nico679 said:

    I can see the universe in which Liz Truss could win another majority.

    I agree . There’s two years before a GE and a lot can happen . Certainly those writing her off are being very premature .
    I did repeatedly make the point that as I did not know much about Truss I thought is was wise to wait until she was seen at the dispatch box and announced her energy policy before writing her off and to be fair that was prescient

    I was very pleased with her performance today
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 47,042
    Carnyx said:

    Nigelb said:

    Carnyx said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    I don't mind Coffey being a fat drunk. I do mind her being a Roman Catholic anti abortion bigot. a lot.

    Where does she stand on homoeopathy?
    Directly on top of it, I hope.
    It needs squashing.
    The problem with it is it is so cheap - just distilled water and one pill of each drug for all the NHS. Tempting.
    And the placebo effect is very real.
    But could we not think of better lies to tell the subjects ?
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 18,992
    Truss did well, as did Starmer.

    Starmer please explain!
  • StockyStocky Posts: 8,712
    HYUFD said:

    The contrast between Johnson and Truss is stark and just highlights why Johnson should never come back and conservative mps need to be grateful that Truss may just save their seats

    That is quite the statement BigG, we await the weekend polling to see whether it is true.

    I expect Truss to get a bounce like most new PMs but would be surprised to see the Tories ahead
    You're 100% focused on the CP winning a GE. I wonder whether some, inc CP voters, might prioritise other factors and principles ahead of just winning?
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    Nigelb said:

    Carnyx said:

    Nigelb said:

    Carnyx said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    I don't mind Coffey being a fat drunk. I do mind her being a Roman Catholic anti abortion bigot. a lot.

    Where does she stand on homoeopathy?
    Directly on top of it, I hope.
    It needs squashing.
    The problem with it is it is so cheap - just distilled water and one pill of each drug for all the NHS. Tempting.
    And the placebo effect is very real.
    But could we not think of better lies to tell the subjects ?
    No. That's what is genius about it. You can't lie because ethics, apparently, and if you write aqua et sucris on the label people will just google it. homeopathy is the only way of squaring this circle.
  • New iPhone today, I will be getting it
  • biggles said:

    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-08-30/uk-predicts-up-to-170-billion-excess-profits-for-energy-firms

    UK gas producers and electricity generators may make excess profits totaling as much as £170 billion ($199 billion) over the next two years, according to Treasury estimates that lay bare the revenue-raising potential of a windfall tax.

    Treasury officials will deliver the assessment to the next prime minister when they take office on Sept. 6, according to a person familiar with the matter, who asked not to be identified discussing internal calculations.

    What is an “excess profit”? Who is to say it is “excess”? How much profit is one allowed to make? Might one not reframe this as “investment in energy sector to soar, and pension funds to benefit, as energy sector firms make record profit”?
    Well, when I did A-level Economics back in the seventies there was a concept of "normal profits" i.e. the profit that needed to be made to prevent the owners deciding to pack it in and do something else instead.
    So presumably "excess profits" are anything above that level.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 23,341
    kjh said:

    I was expecting a car crash and it isn't, but who the hell is going to pay for the energy cap?

    We are. All of us. But mainly the young. Hugely unfair.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 47,042
    edited September 2022
    Pulling Raab's bill is presumably to avoid snarling up government business, rather than an ideological retreat.

    Whitehall source says government is pulling second reading of the bill of rights - describes it as a "total mess" and that it needs a radical overhaul to stop it being vulnerable to multiple amendments
    https://mobile.twitter.com/jessicaelgot/status/1567475876274511876

    Raab, incompetent to the last.
  • nico679nico679 Posts: 2,624

    nico679 said:

    I can see the universe in which Liz Truss could win another majority.

    I agree . There’s two years before a GE and a lot can happen . Certainly those writing her off are being very premature .
    I did repeatedly make the point that as I did not know much about Truss I thought is was wise to wait until she was seen at the dispatch box and announced her energy policy before writing her off and to be fair that was prescient

    I was very pleased with her performance today
    I think she did fine . And Starmer also did well . Thank heavens Johnson is gone !
  • Crackers to have a cap for the richest and those making well above average (also something I dislike about Labour's approach).
  • HYUFD said:

    The dividing lines are very sharp. This is good. The UK (actually, England) needs to decide whether it wants to be America or Europe.

    Neither. Closer to Europe than America in most ways but not a typical European country either. And there are places outside of Europe and America that are making massive investments in education, technology and infrastructure that we should be looking at too.

    Yes, but there is a fundamental question: do we want US levels of taxation and the resulting public services and infrastructure; or European levels? It's early days, but it seems to me that is the dividing line that is emerging. It's one that has been ducked for far too long.

    Depends which European levels, Switzerland for example has significantly lower tax than we do and also more private insurance for healthcare

    And a very different relationship with the EU.

  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 55,345
    edited September 2022
    HYUFD said:

    The contrast between Johnson and Truss is stark and just highlights why Johnson should never come back and conservative mps need to be grateful that Truss may just save their seats

    That is quite the statement BigG, we await the weekend polling to see whether it is true.

    I expect Truss to get a bounce like most new PMs but would be surprised to see the Tories ahead, especially with Truss having a more rightwing Cabinet even than Boris' and much more of a laissez-faire one
    It is quite clear the difference and even the response on here seems to be accord that Johnson is over

    You need to accept this and move on 100% with Truss to turn things round

    I am not expecting an immediate poll bounce and frankly it is not relevant for me
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 28,779

    biggles said:

    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-08-30/uk-predicts-up-to-170-billion-excess-profits-for-energy-firms

    UK gas producers and electricity generators may make excess profits totaling as much as £170 billion ($199 billion) over the next two years, according to Treasury estimates that lay bare the revenue-raising potential of a windfall tax.

    Treasury officials will deliver the assessment to the next prime minister when they take office on Sept. 6, according to a person familiar with the matter, who asked not to be identified discussing internal calculations.

    What is an “excess profit”? Who is to say it is “excess”? How much profit is one allowed to make? Might one not reframe this as “investment in energy sector to soar, and pension funds to benefit, as energy sector firms make record profit”?
    Well, when I did A-level Economics back in the seventies there was a concept of "normal profits" i.e. the profit that needed to be made to prevent the owners deciding to pack it in and do something else instead.
    So presumably "excess profits" are anything above that level.
    There was such a thing as an excess profits tax in the Great War - so they must have had a definition then. Not sure what happened in WW2.
  • StockyStocky Posts: 8,712
    Thornberry good - and fair - on BBC
  • When Labour goes behind PB Tories will be calling him crap again!
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 82,491

    I think politics is about to become very boring again. Which is a good thing

    It wont be boring, too much going on still, but the top people are and it's time for that.

  • AlistairMAlistairM Posts: 1,589
    Looks like training the Ukrainian army is paying off...

    Russian sources report that Ukrainian forces are using effective NATO style combined arms attacks on their positions and they are totally overwhelmed in some areas.
    https://twitter.com/WarMonitor3/status/1567474654310277120
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 6,649

    Crackers to have a cap for the richest and those making well above average (also something I dislike about Labour's approach).

    Its not ideal but then again its a cap on unit price..... should the wealthy pay more for the same chicken in a supermarket or the same pair of shoes at Clarks?
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 35,822
    edited September 2022
    IshmaelZ said:

    biggles said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Carnyx said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Carnyx said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    I don't mind Coffey being a fat drunk. I do mind her being a Roman Catholic anti abortion bigot. a lot.

    Where does she stand on homoeopathy?
    She seems to think chiropractors are mainstream.
    *blinks*

    A UCL chemist should certainly not be sympathetic to the notion of succussation, so good for her if that is so - but chiropractice? (Chiropraxis? Chiropracty?)
    Today program today

    Therese Coffey on radio 4 just now

    ‘ I have to remind you Nick that the majority of healthcare is actually delivered through primary care by doctors, dentists and ….chiropractors .’

    https://twitter.com/helensuth/status/1567415491257405440
    Hopefully she meant chiropodists and we are about to see some long overdue investment in the nation’s feet.
    Well OK, but can she tell paediatricians from paedophiles, in that case?
    Catholic priests are much more likely to be one than the other should be a useful memory aid for her.
  • nico679nico679 Posts: 2,624
    For practical reasons a simple freezing of the cap makes sense even though it would still help those who won’t have problems paying their energy bills .
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 82,491

    The government is shelving Dominic Raab's Bill of Rights. Sources have told the BBC that the government is ‘reviewing the most effective means to deliver objectives through our legislative agenda’ and the Bill of Rights is ‘unlikely to progress in its current form.’

    https://twitter.com/BBCDanielS/status/1567476593907359746

    Harry Cole tweeting that government insiders describe it as “a mess”.

    It's too big and tricky for them to expend capital on.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 6,649

    When Labour goes behind PB Tories will be calling him crap again!

    Not 'again' my Equine friend, ive been consistent in decrying his Starmerliness!
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 20,393
    edited September 2022

    New iPhone today, I will be getting it

    Whenever a new iPhone comes out I visit the nearest Apple Shop and mess around with it for about 30 minutes. But they're too expensive to buy.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 18,992

    nico679 said:

    I can see the universe in which Liz Truss could win another majority.

    I agree . There’s two years before a GE and a lot can happen . Certainly those writing her off are being very premature .
    I did repeatedly make the point that as I did not know much about Truss I thought is was wise to wait until she was seen at the dispatch box and announced her energy policy before writing her off and to be fair that was prescient

    I was very pleased with her performance today
    She didn't really say anything, but she didn't say anything very calmly.

    Starmer struck the right tone for the day too. The shouty opposition MPs looked foolish.

    Hopefully she can put to bed the whole notion of the clown king across the water narrative. She would be wise to let the Standards Committee to do its work and see Johnson recalled. Her premiership will run far smoother without Johnson sniping from the back benches.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 47,042
    MaxPB said:

    I think Truss needs to be smarter than simply ruling out a windfall tax. A scheme where the government effectively takes a (large) stake in domestic electricity generation in return for the £150bn subsidy is what I'd look at. Just as the state took a stake in the banks that were bailed out, the state should own part of the assets here as well until such time as the subsidy is effectively paid off and the companies are able to buy themselves out of state ownership.

    Right now all we have is a £150bn transfer of money from the state to the private sector who are effectively getting free money to invest in new renewable energy generation.

    Some of that total is irrecoverable, even in that manner, but you're absolutely right that we shouldn't nationalise the losses and leave the private sector profits untouched.

  • I can see the universe in which Liz Truss could win another majority.

    Certainly the right wing press will press the 'just like Margaret she has been underestimated' buttons and hammer every little thing as 'a return to Tory values'. That in itself wont be enough. How she handles the inevitable looming scandals (think those on suspension) and indiscipline generally will be key, as will any by election results resulting from Boris honours list.
    Realistically her route to a majority is to restore the Blue Wall and throw enough red meat to partially defend the Red, relying on the long term trend there to hit the brakes and resist on any reversal.
    Its not impossible but its a hell of a tough ask. Stopping Labour having a stable governmemt is probably best case scenario - Tories 290ish seats
    We are still in what could be described as mid term, it is quite remarkable, that we are talking of a overall labour majority, after the Hartlepool by election, no one thought that was remotely possible, but I still think labour without gaining a load of seats in Scotland, have an enormous task on their hands, some sort of coalition is their best hope, which could be the worst result of all for the Tories, surely PR would follow swiftly in that case
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 23,341
    edited September 2022
    FPT in response to @WhisperingOracle

    "This essentially goes back to the New Right of the 1970s, and the idea that any work is morally improving and good work, with financial reward then roughly being a measure of how good that ( employed ) contribution is."

    I am a cynical old bat and my time in the City cured me of any belief in the idea that financial reward is in any sense reflective of how good a person's contribution is.

    Incidentally, the first chapter of James Rebanks' book "The Shepherd's Life" is very good indeed on the way that assumptions are made about those who live in a place without ever bothering to really find out who they are and why they are and live as they do, what they contribute and why. It made a deep impact on me when I first read it and I still go back to it from time to time.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 6,649
    edited September 2022
    nico679 said:

    For practical reasons a simple freezing of the cap makes sense even though it would still help those who won’t have problems paying their energy bills .

    Im not a fan but concede its slmost certainly the only reslistic option in the face of the problem, but it must apply
    to businesses too. Id like to see the government in tandem set up a state provider as a failsafe and so they csn restrict durect propping up of private companies, having somewhere for customers and even staff where appropriate to roll into on failures.
  • maxhmaxh Posts: 212
    IshmaelZ said:

    Nigelb said:

    Carnyx said:

    Nigelb said:

    Carnyx said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    I don't mind Coffey being a fat drunk. I do mind her being a Roman Catholic anti abortion bigot. a lot.

    Where does she stand on homoeopathy?
    Directly on top of it, I hope.
    It needs squashing.
    The problem with it is it is so cheap - just distilled water and one pill of each drug for all the NHS. Tempting.
    And the placebo effect is very real.
    But could we not think of better lies to tell the subjects ?
    No. That's what is genius about it. You can't lie because ethics, apparently, and if you write aqua et sucris on the label people will just google it. homeopathy is the only way of squaring this circle.
    One of the best exchanges I’ve read on here in ages. First decent argument I’ve read for homeopathy. Thanks!

  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 5,752
    edited September 2022
    Maybe I'm thick. But I just can't see how it all stacks up. Truss is going to spend huge sums of (taxpayers' or borrowed) money helping people and businesses with their energy bills. And 'fixing' the NHS backlog/ambulances/GPs/social care will also cost huge sums. This is all going to be done 'immediately' apparently.

    But she's also going to deliver tax cuts immediately. Why?

    One other idle thought - her repeated comments about needing to invest to make sure there are more jobs available - we're pretty much at full employment, aren't we.

    Otherwise I agree with many - more civil and focused than her predecessor.
  • AlistairM said:

    Looks like training the Ukrainian army is paying off...

    Russian sources report that Ukrainian forces are using effective NATO style combined arms attacks on their positions and they are totally overwhelmed in some areas.
    https://twitter.com/WarMonitor3/status/1567474654310277120

    Sounds like the Russian front line in that area of Kharkiv oblast has collapsed. Ukraine are unlikely to have the reserves to fully take advantage, but a sign of how stretched Russian forces have become.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 36,605
    Nigelb said:

    MaxPB said:

    I think Truss needs to be smarter than simply ruling out a windfall tax. A scheme where the government effectively takes a (large) stake in domestic electricity generation in return for the £150bn subsidy is what I'd look at. Just as the state took a stake in the banks that were bailed out, the state should own part of the assets here as well until such time as the subsidy is effectively paid off and the companies are able to buy themselves out of state ownership.

    Right now all we have is a £150bn transfer of money from the state to the private sector who are effectively getting free money to invest in new renewable energy generation.

    Some of that total is irrecoverable, even in that manner, but you're absolutely right that we shouldn't nationalise the losses and leave the private sector profits untouched.

    Yes, a fair proportion of the total will be paid to the likes of Qatar which we won't get back. However, we could easily grab 49% of SSE and other domestic producers of electricity and as dividends are paid out from electricity generation the holding can be reduced.
  • eekeek Posts: 22,056

    New iPhone today, I will be getting it

    You may not once you see the price of it...
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 18,992
    Cyclefree said:

    kjh said:

    I was expecting a car crash and it isn't, but who the hell is going to pay for the energy cap?

    We are. All of us. But mainly the young. Hugely unfair.
    I suspect the rejection of the windfall tax narrative will cause her problems as time goes by.

    Starmer set out his stall for the future. Truss was far better than anticipated, but then Starmer was also a revelation. I think he used to be bamboozled and frustrated by Johnson's absolute lies.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 6,649
    mickydroy said:

    I can see the universe in which Liz Truss could win another majority.

    Certainly the right wing press will press the 'just like Margaret she has been underestimated' buttons and hammer every little thing as 'a return to Tory values'. That in itself wont be enough. How she handles the inevitable looming scandals (think those on suspension) and indiscipline generally will be key, as will any by election results resulting from Boris honours list.
    Realistically her route to a majority is to restore the Blue Wall and throw enough red meat to partially defend the Red, relying on the long term trend there to hit the brakes and resist on any reversal.
    Its not impossible but its a hell of a tough ask. Stopping Labour having a stable governmemt is probably best case scenario - Tories 290ish seats
    We are still in what could be described as mid term, it is quite remarkable, that we are talking of a overall labour majority, after the Hartlepool by election, no one thought that was remotely possible, but I still think labour without gaining a load of seats in Scotland, have an enormous task on their hands, some sort of coalition is their best hope, which could be the worst result of all for the Tories, surely PR would follow swiftly in that case
    PR from coalition will likely require a referendum and even if not, if they are going down a multi member ward style solution, or anything altering dramatically the constituencies it wont be in place by the next election and could therefore simply be reversed
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 20,393
    Truss has dropped from 41% to 36% in Smarket's PM after the next election market compared to yesterday.

    https://smarkets.com/event/42556095/politics/uk/next-uk-general-election/prime-minister-after-next-election
  • Mr. Dyed, it's public money being used to cut the price for everyone, including the very wealthiest.

    Racking up perhaps £90bn of debt with half of it for those in the upper half of wealth is not something I can unequivocally support. And I don't support Labour's similarly broad brush approach.
  • The dividing lines are very sharp. This is good. The UK (actually, England) needs to decide whether it wants to be America or Europe.

    Neither. Closer to Europe than America in most ways but not a typical European country either. And there are places outside of Europe and America that are making massive investments in education, technology and infrastructure that we should be looking at too.

    Yes, but there is a fundamental question: do we want US levels of taxation and the resulting public services and infrastructure; or European levels? It's early days, but it seems to me that is the dividing line that is emerging. It's one that has been ducked for far too long.

    On taxation, we need European levels because of our demographics. We will have them, just the two parties will spend lots of time arguing about it as always. The energy bills is a perfect example, both parties will broadly do the same but Truss has been in denial about it for 3 months in order to win over the right wingers. Push comes to shove and some things just need to be done.

    What both parties will miss is that big investment really is required to maintain public services over the next decade, but it must be done with a view to them being reformed and made more efficient, therefore lowering costs in future, rather than simply making them bigger and more expensive.
  • pingping Posts: 3,282
    edited September 2022
    Cyclefree said:

    kjh said:

    I was expecting a car crash and it isn't, but who the hell is going to pay for the energy cap?

    We are. All of us. But mainly the young. Hugely unfair.
    Yes. This is key. It’s been a fundamental feature of Tory policy, across government, since 2010.

    The grandfathering of rights and state entitlements (eg, a non-home owning young person with a LISA on universal credit is fked, relative to a home-owning middle aged claimant on legacy benefits). Student loans increasing the effective tax rate on the young. The replacement of generous pensions with crap DC schemes for new starters. Using housing as a wealth transfer mechanism from the assetless young to the Tory client vote.

    Throughout government, they’ve been pursuing a fk the young agenda.

    There must come a point where the kids reach braking point, surely?
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    maxh said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Nigelb said:

    Carnyx said:

    Nigelb said:

    Carnyx said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    I don't mind Coffey being a fat drunk. I do mind her being a Roman Catholic anti abortion bigot. a lot.

    Where does she stand on homoeopathy?
    Directly on top of it, I hope.
    It needs squashing.
    The problem with it is it is so cheap - just distilled water and one pill of each drug for all the NHS. Tempting.
    And the placebo effect is very real.
    But could we not think of better lies to tell the subjects ?
    No. That's what is genius about it. You can't lie because ethics, apparently, and if you write aqua et sucris on the label people will just google it. homeopathy is the only way of squaring this circle.
    One of the best exchanges I’ve read on here in ages. First decent argument I’ve read for homeopathy. Thanks!

    Pleasure

    There's another one: an NHS homeopath is more likely than a freelance nutter 1. To recognise symptoms of e.g. cancer 2. To recommend a non homeopathic response to them.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 18,992

    When Labour goes behind PB Tories will be calling him crap again!

    He was good today Horse. He clearly feels more comfortable jousting with someone who is not a total bullshitter.
  • Cyclefree said:

    kjh said:

    I was expecting a car crash and it isn't, but who the hell is going to pay for the energy cap?

    We are. All of us. But mainly the young. Hugely unfair.
    I suspect the rejection of the windfall tax narrative will cause her problems as time goes by.

    Starmer set out his stall for the future. Truss was far better than anticipated, but then Starmer was also a revelation. I think he used to be bamboozled and frustrated by Johnson's absolute lies.
    She may have ruled out a windfall tax, but she has not ruled out a new energy firms contribution levy......
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 42,433
    That was a really good first PMQs for Liz Truss, she was clear in her answers even when she was disagreeing with the point of the questioner. Clear water between the parties on the energy issue.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 18,992
    MaxPB said:

    Nigelb said:

    MaxPB said:

    I think Truss needs to be smarter than simply ruling out a windfall tax. A scheme where the government effectively takes a (large) stake in domestic electricity generation in return for the £150bn subsidy is what I'd look at. Just as the state took a stake in the banks that were bailed out, the state should own part of the assets here as well until such time as the subsidy is effectively paid off and the companies are able to buy themselves out of state ownership.

    Right now all we have is a £150bn transfer of money from the state to the private sector who are effectively getting free money to invest in new renewable energy generation.

    Some of that total is irrecoverable, even in that manner, but you're absolutely right that we shouldn't nationalise the losses and leave the private sector profits untouched.

    Yes, a fair proportion of the total will be paid to the likes of Qatar which we won't get back. However, we could easily grab 49% of SSE and other domestic producers of electricity and as dividends are paid out from electricity generation the holding can be reduced.
    Socialist!
  • Sandpit said:

    That was a really good first PMQs for Liz Truss, she was clear in her answers even when she was disagreeing with the point of the questioner. Clear water between the parties on the energy issue.

    Yes, and several of the questions from the SNP and Labour backbenchers came off as downright rude
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 6,649
    edited September 2022

    Mr. Dyed, it's public money being used to cut the price for everyone, including the very wealthiest.

    Racking up perhaps £90bn of debt with half of it for those in the upper half of wealth is not something I can unequivocally support. And I don't support Labour's similarly broad brush approach.

    Then no cap at all and we need to subsidise based on income - a very costly approach. And dont forget the cap is based on usage, not income. Large, poor families use much more. And so where do we cut off assistance? At what levrl do we say £6000 average cap, your bills are £9k as a heavy user (big family), but youre on your own?
    Its dreadful but necessary imo. Or we are fucked. Properly fucked with 1920s and earlier style poverty, industry on its knees, mass unemployment.
  • The dividing lines are very sharp. This is good. The UK (actually, England) needs to decide whether it wants to be America or Europe.

    That’s an artificial distinction. The EU includes countries with taxation policies that you would regard as way to the right of America.
  • IshmaelZ said:

    What is the point of closed questions (no. 10 mr Speaker)?

    The MP who asks the question can ask a follow-up on the subject of the original question. Most MPs ask *open* questions, normally about what the Prime Minister will be doing that day, which effectively means they can ask a follow-up on any subject, potentially catching out the Prime Minister.

    Occasionally, MPs ask *closed* questions (eg will the Prime Minister ban dogs?). This means that all follow-ups must be about banning dogs. Closed questions are used when the MP actually wants an answer to the closed question, which of course the PM has seen in advance, and to the follow-up.
  • IshmaelZ said:

    Carnyx said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Carnyx said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    I don't mind Coffey being a fat drunk. I do mind her being a Roman Catholic anti abortion bigot. a lot.

    Where does she stand on homoeopathy?
    She seems to think chiropractors are mainstream.
    *blinks*

    A UCL chemist should certainly not be sympathetic to the notion of succussation, so good for her if that is so - but chiropractice? (Chiropraxis? Chiropracty?)
    Today program today

    Therese Coffey on radio 4 just now

    ‘ I have to remind you Nick that the majority of healthcare is actually delivered through primary care by doctors, dentists and ….chiropractors .’

    https://twitter.com/helensuth/status/1567415491257405440
    Programme.
  • 10/10 for me from Truss today.

    But words are cheap. She needs to follow through.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 82,491

    IshmaelZ said:

    What is the point of closed questions (no. 10 mr Speaker)?

    The MP who asks the question can ask a follow-up on the subject of the original question. Most MPs ask *open* questions, normally about what the Prime Minister will be doing that day, which effectively means they can ask a follow-up on any subject, potentially catching out the Prime Minister.

    Occasionally, MPs ask *closed* questions (eg will the Prime Minister ban dogs?). This means that all follow-ups must be about banning dogs. Closed questions are used when the MP actually wants an answer to the closed question, which of course the PM has seen in advance, and to the follow-up.
    Interesting procedural point, thanks! I love procedure.

    Reminds me of the inclusion of 'and related purposes' on bills, which (I think) makes it easier for amendments of a broad nature to be included, as the early 2019 GE bill did not include such a phrase, so in addition to being very short itself several attempted amendments were deemed out of order.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 82,491

    IshmaelZ said:

    Carnyx said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Carnyx said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    I don't mind Coffey being a fat drunk. I do mind her being a Roman Catholic anti abortion bigot. a lot.

    Where does she stand on homoeopathy?
    She seems to think chiropractors are mainstream.
    *blinks*

    A UCL chemist should certainly not be sympathetic to the notion of succussation, so good for her if that is so - but chiropractice? (Chiropraxis? Chiropracty?)
    Today program today

    Therese Coffey on radio 4 just now

    ‘ I have to remind you Nick that the majority of healthcare is actually delivered through primary care by doctors, dentists and ….chiropractors .’

    https://twitter.com/helensuth/status/1567415491257405440
    Programme.
    I always get that one wrong. I need to get with the program(me?)
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 18,992
    Sarah Montague on WATO giving PMQs to Truss on Q6.
This discussion has been closed.