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Why being anti-lockdown might not be popular – politicalbetting.com

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  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 11,576
    geoffw said:

    carnforth said:

    From The Times today:


    Looks awesome. Down in Devon with our classic mini, and a fair number of land based ones around. I like them. They don’t disrupt farming below them, are graceful and are helping to reach net zero. No idea why anyone would be against, potentially national parks excepted.
    Birds

    I’d argue largely exaggerated.
  • In Spectator, which is the source for this discussion, Sunak is clear he's not saying lockdowns weren't the answer. His focus is that there was no serious discussion whatsoever of the downsides before it was imposed on millions of people.

    And the public should a) have been exposed to discussions about the pros and cons (i.e. treated like adults and not kids by the elite) b) and have not been so scared by the advertising campaigns warning of total doom.

    It also seems that minutes were doctored to remove sci opinions that differed from the main strategy of locking down. And as he points out it is all very odd when Whitty and Valance were initially against lockdowns.

    There seems to have been no attempt to do even a basic cost/benefit analysis.

    It is a shocking read about the lax way we are governed.

    Frankly, I don't believe Sunak. He's made too many statements on this direction that are obviously in conflict with previously published stuff.

    For example, we know there were long detailed discussions on the pros and cons of lockdown prior to them being imposed (and there were published SAGE documents from the start of March onwards). He even says that Whitty and Valance started on the anti-lockdown side (so - this somehow means that there were no discussions). Even at the time, the question of whether we were going to try to "flatten the sombrero" rather than try to lockdown - remember that? It gets raised a lot.

    The March advice and meetings are available here: https://www.gov.uk/government/collections/sage-meetings-march-2020

    Even as early as 4th March, there were detailed summaries of the negative effects on school closures (eg here: https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/887574/04-spi-b-insights-on-combined-behavioural-and-social-interventions.pdf)

    As with Leon, I agree that Lockdown 1 was inescapable.

    Sunak complaining ahead of Lockdown 2 and 3 that there weren't detailed economic projections for them, given the make-up and direction given SAGE, might be sound - if it wasn't that he had access to the entire resources of the Treasury

    Why the hell, if the Chancellor wanted economic modelling done, didn't he use the resources of the Treasury? Who's job did he think it was to get economic information on the unfolding of the likely ways forwards? Complaining that he and the decision makers were overruled by an advisory group (when the Cabinet were known to have made calls against SAGE advice already), and whining that no-one else turned up and handed him economic modelling makes him look like a twat, frankly. That was his job, if anyone's, wasn't it?

    Looks to me like he's flailing around, wanted to try to grab a certain demographic of the Fraser Nelson/Toby Young/Telegraph area, thought saying this would help, and doesn't actually care what's true or untrue. Which is poor politics - you're supposed to hint or imply or 'just ask questions' rather than say stuff that's either demonstrably untrue or makes you look a prat with a moment's thought. But Sunak hasn't impressed on his politicking skills at any point in this contest.
    Excellent post.

    The UK public are not stupid. We area fairly law abiding people who will go with what we are told if to do if it seems reasonable. We also know that the government were doing their best at the time on limited information and we should be kind with hindsight - but learn the correct lessons for next time (and there will be a next time).

    Personally I hope that the future grant funding for the pandemic modelling groups should be assessed on how good their models were. Professor Ferguson did not do very well for example.
  • DynamoDynamo Posts: 651
    edited August 2022
    Leon said:

    I’m not sure people have grasped the damage done by the lockdowns yet. And perhaps they never will as everyone is now caught up in the whirl of the Ukrainian war and cost-of-living-crisis

    I will note this tho: a year back I barely knew anyone who was really skeptical about lockdowns. My mad but wise brother was one. A couple of journalist friends. A few on here

    Now I hear it everywhere. “The lockdowns were stupid and wrong”

    People are definitely more open to the idea we made a terrible error

    I'm not sure that most who are sceptical think lockdown was an "error". I certainly don't. Should never have happened, yes.

    Its main effect wasn't prolonging the lives of a few elderly and chronically ill people for a year or so, or even stopping "the NHS" from being "overwhelmed" (aka "Tory heaven"). Its main effect was behavioural and on the large majority of the population. Those who keep their eyes open can hardly fail to notice there is very little scepticism now in 2022 about the idea that Britain should support the Ukraine in the war. We can't know, but perhaps in 2019 there would have been more scepticism. Does your mad wise bro have a view on Britain's involvement in the war?
  • Andy_CookeAndy_Cooke Posts: 4,510

    Mr. Abode, not the first time. There was one season... I think it was a later Vettel-Red Bull year when it was pretty close between him and Hamilton then the rules were changed mid-season (tyres, maybe) and they won a ton and made it a procession.

    Mercedes had some good pace, though.

    Yes, agreed. Merc need to focus on 2023 though, presumably by ditching their concept
    The Merc is a peculiar and unpredictable beast.
    Poor in qualifying (usually), and drops back early on, but from about a third of the way through a given race, it laps at a comparable pace to the Ferraris or even Red Bulls.

    Russell was closing in on Sainz for third for a while and was clearly faster than Leclerc. Sainz held out partly through driving his socks off (when Russell's charge seemed to be losing momentum initially, the commentators suggested Russell might be having tyre problems, but if you looked at the standings, Russell was pulling away from Leclerc at a similar rate as before, but Sainz was lapping closer to Perez's times and not falling further behind Perez. Indicating that it was because Sainz was pulling serious pace out to stay clear).
    And partly when Russell overcooked it in one corner and lost seven tenths and lit up his tyres a bit.

    I think that's the source of the frustration - they have a good car there - somewhere. If they can bring it out, but it usually only gets brought out partway through the race and suddenly it flips from being Alpine/Mclaren level to Ferrari-level.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 30,637
    houndtang said:

    Leon said:

    I’m not sure people have grasped the damage done by the lockdowns yet. And perhaps they never will as everyone is now caught up in the whirl of the Ukrainian war and cost-of-living-crisis

    I will note this tho: a year back I barely knew anyone who was really skeptical about lockdowns. My mad but wise brother was one. A couple of journalist friends. A few on here

    Now I hear it everywhere. “The lockdowns were stupid and wrong”

    People are definitely more open to the idea we made a terrible error

    I was against the lockdown from the start, for personal reasons (my father, to my eternal regret, was in a care home and I was unable to visit him for the last four weeks of his life). But it was obvious in March 2020 that even a short lockdown would cause immense damage to mental and physical health and to the economy. As a teacher I saw first hand evidence of the effect on young people and their education, and the 'cost of living crisis' has considerably more to do with the deranged inflation ramping policies enacted over the last two and a half years than it does with Ukraine. I admit I was astonished that people went along with the rules, but then the fear mongering - admitted by Sunak - was despicable, and the threat grossly exaggerated. Lockdown was evil. There is no other word suitable.
    As I say, I am increasingly sympathetic to this position
  • Jim_MillerJim_Miller Posts: 1,059
    Two observations: The word "lockdown" does not appear in the index to Deborah Birx's "Silent Invasion", and I don't recall her using it much in the book, though many polticians here in the US did.

    But she does criticize the US over and over, for failing to test as often, and as intelligently, as we should have. For example: "What is clear is had we been testing and sequencing at the same level as the UK, we would have seen that the highly contagious variant was already here. The UK had dramatically lower hospitalizations and deaths with both their Delta and Omicron surge compared to the United States. In January 2021, we were on par with the population-adjusted Covid-19 deaths with Europe. Since then we have had 20 percent more fatalities that the UK." (p. 463)

    Her 20 years in the US Army makes her believe that, if we know where the enemy is, we can defeat them.
  • pigeonpigeon Posts: 3,232

    geoffw said:

    carnforth said:

    From The Times today:


    Looks awesome. Down in Devon with our classic mini, and a fair number of land based ones around. I like them. They don’t disrupt farming below them, are graceful and are helping to reach net zero. No idea why anyone would be against, potentially national parks excepted.
    Birds

    I’d argue largely exaggerated.
    There are always made up excuses for Nimbyism. The sole objection to onshore wind turbines virtually everywhere outside very sensitive landscapes (AONBs, nature reserves, etc.) is "I'm frightened it'll reduce the value of my house" and those advancing alternative suggestions - typically elderly homeowners who, when they aren't being Nimbies, are whining that they need their pensions boosting by another three billion percent because of the cost of electricity - are lying because they don't want to admit to caring about nobody and nothing but their hoard of personal wealth. It's precisely the same for virtually every objection ever raised to the construction of new build homes. Fuck em.
  • Andy_CookeAndy_Cooke Posts: 4,510

    In Spectator, which is the source for this discussion, Sunak is clear he's not saying lockdowns weren't the answer. His focus is that there was no serious discussion whatsoever of the downsides before it was imposed on millions of people.

    And the public should a) have been exposed to discussions about the pros and cons (i.e. treated like adults and not kids by the elite) b) and have not been so scared by the advertising campaigns warning of total doom.

    It also seems that minutes were doctored to remove sci opinions that differed from the main strategy of locking down. And as he points out it is all very odd when Whitty and Valance were initially against lockdowns.

    There seems to have been no attempt to do even a basic cost/benefit analysis.

    It is a shocking read about the lax way we are governed.

    Frankly, I don't believe Sunak. He's made too many statements on this direction that are obviously in conflict with previously published stuff.

    For example, we know there were long detailed discussions on the pros and cons of lockdown prior to them being imposed (and there were published SAGE documents from the start of March onwards). He even says that Whitty and Valance started on the anti-lockdown side (so - this somehow means that there were no discussions). Even at the time, the question of whether we were going to try to "flatten the sombrero" rather than try to lockdown - remember that? It gets raised a lot.

    The March advice and meetings are available here: https://www.gov.uk/government/collections/sage-meetings-march-2020

    Even as early as 4th March, there were detailed summaries of the negative effects on school closures (eg here: https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/887574/04-spi-b-insights-on-combined-behavioural-and-social-interventions.pdf)

    As with Leon, I agree that Lockdown 1 was inescapable.

    Sunak complaining ahead of Lockdown 2 and 3 that there weren't detailed economic projections for them, given the make-up and direction given SAGE, might be sound - if it wasn't that he had access to the entire resources of the Treasury

    Why the hell, if the Chancellor wanted economic modelling done, didn't he use the resources of the Treasury? Who's job did he think it was to get economic information on the unfolding of the likely ways forwards? Complaining that he and the decision makers were overruled by an advisory group (when the Cabinet were known to have made calls against SAGE advice already), and whining that no-one else turned up and handed him economic modelling makes him look like a twat, frankly. That was his job, if anyone's, wasn't it?

    Looks to me like he's flailing around, wanted to try to grab a certain demographic of the Fraser Nelson/Toby Young/Telegraph area, thought saying this would help, and doesn't actually care what's true or untrue. Which is poor politics - you're supposed to hint or imply or 'just ask questions' rather than say stuff that's either demonstrably untrue or makes you look a prat with a moment's thought. But Sunak hasn't impressed on his politicking skills at any point in this contest.
    Excellent post.

    The UK public are not stupid. We area fairly law abiding people who will go with what we are told if to do if it seems reasonable. We also know that the government were doing their best at the time on limited information and we should be kind with hindsight - but learn the correct lessons for next time (and there will be a next time).

    Personally I hope that the future grant funding for the pandemic modelling groups should be assessed on how good their models were. Professor Ferguson did not do very well for example.
    Ironically it now looks as though Ferguson's initial models were too optimistic.
    The 48,000 max deaths figure is obviously way too low now.


    It's clear that both the highest R0 considered and the IFRs assumed were too low.
    In retrospect, that bottom line should have been something like:

    750,000 -- 200,000 -- 130,000 -- 90,000 with an R0 of 3.3 or so.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 3,639
    dixiedean said:

    Cyclefree said:

    If hospitality businesses facing 250% or more increases in their energy costs, not the piffling 80% us poor individuals have to face, shut down, we'll all end up locked up in our own homes this winter wearing every cardigan we own at the same time.

    Anyway, I'd better go and do some work so that I can save up for a candle or two.....

    Laters.

    Some of us individuals are regarded as businesses because of the nature of our domestic energy supply.
    Gas bill up 300%. And not 600% thanks only to my landlord.
    May be you should cut back on the huffing?

    😜

  • LeonLeon Posts: 30,637
    The Calvine UFO photo


    An interview with a Scottish photographer who saw all six images

    https://twitter.com/the_jandashow/status/1561374479464517642?s=20&t=0ckT2y-NECV25SaJGx8wyA


    He is really quite convincing that this is a secret US stealth craft, floating in the sky. It explains almost everything

    So all the debunkers saying "rock in a loch", "reflection", "hanging ornament", "mountaintop" are wrong, and badly wrong. Equally the UFOlogists convinced it is aliens are also wrong. Or so it seems

    But WTF is that US tech?!



  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 3,639
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Look at that difference between Remain and Leave. Remainers probably want us locked down forever. What is wrong with them?

    Is that the dumbest post of the day? It comes so easily to you, and I've been trying so hard all day!
    I was being provocative. It seems to have worked


    But it is an intriguing difference. So many ultra lockdowners on Twitter are also angry Remoaners. Why?
    Because they know better than us what is good for us
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 6,911
    pigeon said:

    geoffw said:

    carnforth said:

    From The Times today:


    Looks awesome. Down in Devon with our classic mini, and a fair number of land based ones around. I like them. They don’t disrupt farming below them, are graceful and are helping to reach net zero. No idea why anyone would be against, potentially national parks excepted.
    Birds

    I’d argue largely exaggerated.
    There are always made up excuses for Nimbyism. The sole objection to onshore wind turbines virtually everywhere outside very sensitive landscapes (AONBs, nature reserves, etc.) is "I'm frightened it'll reduce the value of my house" and those advancing alternative suggestions - typically elderly homeowners who, when they aren't being Nimbies, are whining that they need their pensions boosting by another three billion percent because of the cost of electricity - are lying because they don't want to admit to caring about nobody and nothing but their hoard of personal wealth. It's precisely the same for virtually every objection ever raised to the construction of new build homes. Fuck em.
    I'm one of those you decry, and I don't know a single senior citizen who fits your hysterical description.

  • Andy_CookeAndy_Cooke Posts: 4,510
    My overall stance:

    Lockdown 1 was likely inescapable as we found out what was involved.

    Lockdowns 2 and 3 could likely have been avoided by going harder on Tiers (to Tier 3 as the default), improving test and trace, and offering greater support for self-isolation. At the very least, we could have avoided school closures in Lockdown 3 had we done better beforehand.

    I suspected at the time that the fear campaign was a clumsy attempt to avoid lockdown 3. The idea being that if people were sufficiently worried, they'd comply with the more voluntary aspects without the need for a full-on lockdown (ie to get an effective lockdown without the negative political aspects of having to take responsibility for another de jure lockdown). But I could be overly cynical.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 11,576

    In Spectator, which is the source for this discussion, Sunak is clear he's not saying lockdowns weren't the answer. His focus is that there was no serious discussion whatsoever of the downsides before it was imposed on millions of people.

    And the public should a) have been exposed to discussions about the pros and cons (i.e. treated like adults and not kids by the elite) b) and have not been so scared by the advertising campaigns warning of total doom.

    It also seems that minutes were doctored to remove sci opinions that differed from the main strategy of locking down. And as he points out it is all very odd when Whitty and Valance were initially against lockdowns.

    There seems to have been no attempt to do even a basic cost/benefit analysis.

    It is a shocking read about the lax way we are governed.

    Frankly, I don't believe Sunak. He's made too many statements on this direction that are obviously in conflict with previously published stuff.

    For example, we know there were long detailed discussions on the pros and cons of lockdown prior to them being imposed (and there were published SAGE documents from the start of March onwards). He even says that Whitty and Valance started on the anti-lockdown side (so - this somehow means that there were no discussions). Even at the time, the question of whether we were going to try to "flatten the sombrero" rather than try to lockdown - remember that? It gets raised a lot.

    The March advice and meetings are available here: https://www.gov.uk/government/collections/sage-meetings-march-2020

    Even as early as 4th March, there were detailed summaries of the negative effects on school closures (eg here: https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/887574/04-spi-b-insights-on-combined-behavioural-and-social-interventions.pdf)

    As with Leon, I agree that Lockdown 1 was inescapable.

    Sunak complaining ahead of Lockdown 2 and 3 that there weren't detailed economic projections for them, given the make-up and direction given SAGE, might be sound - if it wasn't that he had access to the entire resources of the Treasury

    Why the hell, if the Chancellor wanted economic modelling done, didn't he use the resources of the Treasury? Who's job did he think it was to get economic information on the unfolding of the likely ways forwards? Complaining that he and the decision makers were overruled by an advisory group (when the Cabinet were known to have made calls against SAGE advice already), and whining that no-one else turned up and handed him economic modelling makes him look like a twat, frankly. That was his job, if anyone's, wasn't it?

    Looks to me like he's flailing around, wanted to try to grab a certain demographic of the Fraser Nelson/Toby Young/Telegraph area, thought saying this would help, and doesn't actually care what's true or untrue. Which is poor politics - you're supposed to hint or imply or 'just ask questions' rather than say stuff that's either demonstrably untrue or makes you look a prat with a moment's thought. But Sunak hasn't impressed on his politicking skills at any point in this contest.
    Excellent post.

    The UK public are not stupid. We area fairly law abiding people who will go with what we are told if to do if it seems reasonable. We also know that the government were doing their best at the time on limited information and we should be kind with hindsight - but learn the correct lessons for next time (and there will be a next time).

    Personally I hope that the future grant funding for the pandemic modelling groups should be assessed on how good their models were. Professor Ferguson did not do very well for example.
    Ironically it now looks as though Ferguson's initial models were too optimistic.
    The 48,000 max deaths figure is obviously way too low now.


    It's clear that both the highest R0 considered and the IFRs assumed were too low.
    In retrospect, that bottom line should have been something like:

    750,000 -- 200,000 -- 130,000 -- 90,000 with an R0 of 3.3 or so.
    As has already been mentioned, the modelling tended to present extreme cases where no population behaviour was self modified, as If people would behave entirely as normal unless explicitly told not to. This was clearly nuts. It was the same issue around omicron and Christmas. Most people started to change behaviour in order to avoid missing Christmas, yet the modelling being pushed assumed none of this, and to make it worse, someone, somewhere pushed the worst case scenarios to politicians to poorly scientifically educated to know what was going on.
  • I didn't leave the house for FIFTY-FIVE days between March 19th and May 13th 2020, and then only to go to the pharmacy to pic up some meds. Didn't go for a drive until June 16th, and didn't go to the local park (Valentine's) until July 20th. Went for a nervous tube ride round the Central Line's Hainault Loop (almost all above ground) on September 23rd, and again on December 11th and 12th. No buses or main lines until the following year!
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 49,002
    Leon said:

    These questions are too black and white

    I’m increasingly skeptical about lockdowns 2 and 3. Not worth it. But we had to do some version of lockdown 1 because we had no idea what we were facing

    So how would I answer this question?

    Yep:

    Lockdown 1 was a must.

    Lockdown 2, we should have learned some lessons and done it smarter.

    Lockdown 3 probably shouldn't have happened at all.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 11,576
    Leon said:

    The Calvine UFO photo


    An interview with a Scottish photographer who saw all six images

    https://twitter.com/the_jandashow/status/1561374479464517642?s=20&t=0ckT2y-NECV25SaJGx8wyA


    He is really quite convincing that this is a secret US stealth craft, floating in the sky. It explains almost everything

    So all the debunkers saying "rock in a loch", "reflection", "hanging ornament", "mountaintop" are wrong, and badly wrong. Equally the UFOlogists convinced it is aliens are also wrong. Or so it seems

    But WTF is that US tech?!



    An interview with a photographer who claims to have seen all six photos. Very important distinction. You are so gullible at times.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 55,103
    PollTracker
    @PollTrackerUSA
    · Aug 26
    2024 National Democratic Primary Poll, Without Biden:

    M. Obama 16%
    Harris 15%
    Clinton 7%
    Sanders 7%
    Buttigieg 6%
    Abrams 4%
    Newsom 4%
    Warren 4%
    O'Rourke 3%
    Ocasio-Cortez 2%
    Booker 2%
    Klobuchar 2%
    Winfrey 2%
    McConaughey 2%
    Manchin 2%
    Kaine 2%

    McLaughlin ~ 468 LV ~ 8/20-8/24
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 3,639
    darkage said:

    fpt

    If woke is a direct threat to western civilisation, then we do need it properly defined. The fact that most people don’t know what it is or believe, apparently wrongly, that it is the new “political correctness gone mad” (largely because that’s how it’s reported in the right wing media) shows that those who do see anti-woke as being the defining struggle of the 21st century need to start explaining it a lot better and disassociating it from right wing hobby horses like Hard Brexit, climate change denial, sending refugees to Rwanda and opposition to working from home. If they don’t the war will be lost. You can’t win a battle for civilisation by alienating 50% or more of the population.

    Put another way, if people like Jacob Rees Mogg, Laurence Fox and Nigel Farage are the people making your case, you’re in very bad trouble.

    @SouthamObserver
    The rhetorical game about what woke is and what it isn't is ultimately a empty distraction.
    I would read one of Douglas Murrays last two books (the 'madness of crowds' or 'the war on the west') and try and explain how he is wrong.
    I think Murray is over provocative and dramatic, and lacks solutions, but I find his diagnosis of the problem very convincing.


    I think what “woke” is is fairly simple

    It’s just the latest manifestation of “equality of outcome” in a more virulent form.

    The old divide between the right and the left. Equality of outcome vs equality of opportunity.

    But because way governments mishandled everything economically from the early 2000s onwards an increasing percentage of society believe they have no realistic opportunity (to build savings, own their own house, etc) they naturally swing towards “equality of outcome” as being better for them and their families

  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 42,503

    ydoethur said:

    FFS Ferrari, how on earth do you make so many avoidable stupid errors in pit strategy?

    Edit - no harm done in the end, but really!

    Just the 5 second penalty for speeding in the pit lane
    That, and the failure to actually get the fastest lap.

    Only Ferrari could quite so comprehensively screw up such a routine exercise.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 10,792
    pigeon said:

    kjh said:

    geoffw said:

    On Aug. 18, Ukraine’s Serhiy Prytula Charity Foundation purchased a Finnish-produced ICEYE satellite for the country’s armed forces.

    The charity made the purchase with the $17 million initially fundraised by Ukrainians to buy Bayraktar attack drones. The Turkish manufacturer, Baykar, refused to take the money and instead offered three drones to Ukraine for free.

    According to an agreement with ICEYE, Ukraine gets one of the company’s 21 satellites and one-year access to imagery collected by other ICEYE spacecraft. Ukraine will remain the sole owner of the satellite for as long as it remains in orbit, and if the satellite fails, the company is obliged to provide Ukraine with a new one.

    https://api.kyivindependent.com/storage/1-2-1661595041Bl3Gc-1080x1080.jpg
    The image of the Crimean Bridge that connects mainland Russia with Russian-occupied Crimea made with a Finnish-produced satellite ICEYE.

    That bridge is a vulnerable point for the maintenance of Russia's hold on Crimea.

    https://kyivindependent.com/national/ukrainian-charity-buys-satellite-for-the-army-how-will-it-help-fight-against-russia

    If that bridge is still intact, one has to wonder why or how?
    This is presumably the Kerch Bridge, which some Ukrainian statements have described as an illegal structure and which, it seems highly likely, they would wish to destroy. The issue being that it's very large and a very long way behind the front line. I assume that the Ukrainian Armed Forces lack munitions of sufficient range and power to blow it up, but stand to be corrected by the course of events.
    There is a Russian Rom Com (called Crimean Bridge, Made With Love) about it if anybody wants some Sunday afternoon viewing.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 49,002
    Leon said:

    And on it goes


    “BBC tells its staff to watch out for 170 different forms of 'unconscious bias' which could fuel 'discomfort'... including discrimination based on a colleague's hobbies”


    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11153049/BBC-tells-staff-watch-170-different-forms-unconscious-bias.html

    Surely there is genuine unconscious bias: such as the US research that shows that male teachers in co-ed schools are far more likely to call on boys with their hands up over girls. And I suspect that's something that - if brought to ones' attention - is usually quickly corrected.

    But that's not about "discomfort".

    Of course, this is a Daily Mail article, so I probably shouldn't read too much into it.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 49,002
    Dynamo said:

    Leon said:

    I’m not sure people have grasped the damage done by the lockdowns yet. And perhaps they never will as everyone is now caught up in the whirl of the Ukrainian war and cost-of-living-crisis

    I will note this tho: a year back I barely knew anyone who was really skeptical about lockdowns. My mad but wise brother was one. A couple of journalist friends. A few on here

    Now I hear it everywhere. “The lockdowns were stupid and wrong”

    People are definitely more open to the idea we made a terrible error

    I'm not sure that most who are sceptical think lockdown was an "error". I certainly don't. Should never have happened, yes.

    Its main effect wasn't prolonging the lives of a few elderly and chronically ill people for a year or so, or even stopping "the NHS" from being "overwhelmed" (aka "Tory heaven"). Its main effect was behavioural and on the large majority of the population. Those who keep their eyes open can hardly fail to notice there is very little scepticism now in 2022 about the idea that Britain should support the Ukraine in the war. We can't know, but perhaps in 2019 there would have been more scepticism. Does your mad wise bro have a view on Britain's involvement in the war?
    Nice: make it seem like supporting the - your words - "Neo-Nazis" in Ukraine is like supporting unnecessary lockdowns.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 20,506
    edited August 2022

    In Spectator, which is the source for this discussion, Sunak is clear he's not saying lockdowns weren't the answer. His focus is that there was no serious discussion whatsoever of the downsides before it was imposed on millions of people.

    And the public should a) have been exposed to discussions about the pros and cons (i.e. treated like adults and not kids by the elite) b) and have not been so scared by the advertising campaigns warning of total doom.

    It also seems that minutes were doctored to remove sci opinions that differed from the main strategy of locking down. And as he points out it is all very odd when Whitty and Valance were initially against lockdowns.

    There seems to have been no attempt to do even a basic cost/benefit analysis.

    It is a shocking read about the lax way we are governed.

    Frankly, I don't believe Sunak. He's made too many statements on this direction that are obviously in conflict with previously published stuff.

    For example, we know there were long detailed discussions on the pros and cons of lockdown prior to them being imposed (and there were published SAGE documents from the start of March onwards). He even says that Whitty and Valance started on the anti-lockdown side (so - this somehow means that there were no discussions). Even at the time, the question of whether we were going to try to "flatten the sombrero" rather than try to lockdown - remember that? It gets raised a lot.

    The March advice and meetings are available here: https://www.gov.uk/government/collections/sage-meetings-march-2020

    Even as early as 4th March, there were detailed summaries of the negative effects on school closures (eg here: https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/887574/04-spi-b-insights-on-combined-behavioural-and-social-interventions.pdf)

    As with Leon, I agree that Lockdown 1 was inescapable.

    Sunak complaining ahead of Lockdown 2 and 3 that there weren't detailed economic projections for them, given the make-up and direction given SAGE, might be sound - if it wasn't that he had access to the entire resources of the Treasury

    Why the hell, if the Chancellor wanted economic modelling done, didn't he use the resources of the Treasury? Who's job did he think it was to get economic information on the unfolding of the likely ways forwards? Complaining that he and the decision makers were overruled by an advisory group (when the Cabinet were known to have made calls against SAGE advice already), and whining that no-one else turned up and handed him economic modelling makes him look like a twat, frankly. That was his job, if anyone's, wasn't it?

    Looks to me like he's flailing around, wanted to try to grab a certain demographic of the Fraser Nelson/Toby Young/Telegraph area, thought saying this would help, and doesn't actually care what's true or untrue. Which is poor politics - you're supposed to hint or imply or 'just ask questions' rather than say stuff that's either demonstrably untrue or makes you look a prat with a moment's thought. But Sunak hasn't impressed on his politicking skills at any point in this contest.
    It strikes me he's just casting about for some Tory red meat, but that which does not contradict his policy of prolonged recession, green extremism, and high taxes. That's pretty slim pickings. Lockdown attacks and pledging to protect 'our wimmin' come from the same deeply insincere place.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 8,604
    Whateve

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Look at that difference between Remain and Leave. Remainers probably want us locked down forever. What is wrong with them?

    Is that the dumbest post of the day? It comes so easily to you, and I've been trying so hard all day!
    I was being provocative. It seems to have worked


    But it is an intriguing difference. So many ultra lockdowners on Twitter are also angry Remoaners. Why?
    Because they know better than us what is good for us
    How do you account for the Leaver mentality of Anti-Vaxxers?

  • Andy_CookeAndy_Cooke Posts: 4,510

    In Spectator, which is the source for this discussion, Sunak is clear he's not saying lockdowns weren't the answer. His focus is that there was no serious discussion whatsoever of the downsides before it was imposed on millions of people.

    And the public should a) have been exposed to discussions about the pros and cons (i.e. treated like adults and not kids by the elite) b) and have not been so scared by the advertising campaigns warning of total doom.

    It also seems that minutes were doctored to remove sci opinions that differed from the main strategy of locking down. And as he points out it is all very odd when Whitty and Valance were initially against lockdowns.

    There seems to have been no attempt to do even a basic cost/benefit analysis.

    It is a shocking read about the lax way we are governed.

    Frankly, I don't believe Sunak. He's made too many statements on this direction that are obviously in conflict with previously published stuff.

    For example, we know there were long detailed discussions on the pros and cons of lockdown prior to them being imposed (and there were published SAGE documents from the start of March onwards). He even says that Whitty and Valance started on the anti-lockdown side (so - this somehow means that there were no discussions). Even at the time, the question of whether we were going to try to "flatten the sombrero" rather than try to lockdown - remember that? It gets raised a lot.

    The March advice and meetings are available here: https://www.gov.uk/government/collections/sage-meetings-march-2020

    Even as early as 4th March, there were detailed summaries of the negative effects on school closures (eg here: https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/887574/04-spi-b-insights-on-combined-behavioural-and-social-interventions.pdf)

    As with Leon, I agree that Lockdown 1 was inescapable.

    Sunak complaining ahead of Lockdown 2 and 3 that there weren't detailed economic projections for them, given the make-up and direction given SAGE, might be sound - if it wasn't that he had access to the entire resources of the Treasury

    Why the hell, if the Chancellor wanted economic modelling done, didn't he use the resources of the Treasury? Who's job did he think it was to get economic information on the unfolding of the likely ways forwards? Complaining that he and the decision makers were overruled by an advisory group (when the Cabinet were known to have made calls against SAGE advice already), and whining that no-one else turned up and handed him economic modelling makes him look like a twat, frankly. That was his job, if anyone's, wasn't it?

    Looks to me like he's flailing around, wanted to try to grab a certain demographic of the Fraser Nelson/Toby Young/Telegraph area, thought saying this would help, and doesn't actually care what's true or untrue. Which is poor politics - you're supposed to hint or imply or 'just ask questions' rather than say stuff that's either demonstrably untrue or makes you look a prat with a moment's thought. But Sunak hasn't impressed on his politicking skills at any point in this contest.
    Excellent post.

    The UK public are not stupid. We area fairly law abiding people who will go with what we are told if to do if it seems reasonable. We also know that the government were doing their best at the time on limited information and we should be kind with hindsight - but learn the correct lessons for next time (and there will be a next time).

    Personally I hope that the future grant funding for the pandemic modelling groups should be assessed on how good their models were. Professor Ferguson did not do very well for example.
    Ironically it now looks as though Ferguson's initial models were too optimistic.
    The 48,000 max deaths figure is obviously way too low now.


    It's clear that both the highest R0 considered and the IFRs assumed were too low.
    In retrospect, that bottom line should have been something like:

    750,000 -- 200,000 -- 130,000 -- 90,000 with an R0 of 3.3 or so.
    As has already been mentioned, the modelling tended to present extreme cases where no population behaviour was self modified, as If people would behave entirely as normal unless explicitly told not to. This was clearly nuts. It was the same issue around omicron and Christmas. Most people started to change behaviour in order to avoid missing Christmas, yet the modelling being pushed assumed none of this, and to make it worse, someone, somewhere pushed the worst case scenarios to politicians to poorly scientifically educated to know what was going on.
    The thing is - the modelling always included loads of these as options and possibilities.
    The media always leapt on the most dramatic one and put it forwards, and it was from both ends. Some to try to portray it as "Oh my God we're doomed!" Others to portray it as "How ridiculous is this?"

    That table I posted was from that famous document. In it they state that the "Do nothing" isn't realistic for two reasons: 1, that people will change their behaviour, and 2, there will obviously be something done. It's there as a reference for "If you multiply the IFR by everyone, this is the number of deaths you get."

    Although it does have another role: without vaccines or effective treatments, the number of deaths will eventually reach that number. You just spread them out longer.

    It's now bizarre that Sunak is saying that they removed the details of the models and alternative options, when we all spent months discussing whether SAGE should have put these behind closed doors so that the media couldn't do their inevitable game.
  • Dura_Ace said:

    pigeon said:

    kjh said:

    geoffw said:

    On Aug. 18, Ukraine’s Serhiy Prytula Charity Foundation purchased a Finnish-produced ICEYE satellite for the country’s armed forces.

    The charity made the purchase with the $17 million initially fundraised by Ukrainians to buy Bayraktar attack drones. The Turkish manufacturer, Baykar, refused to take the money and instead offered three drones to Ukraine for free.

    According to an agreement with ICEYE, Ukraine gets one of the company’s 21 satellites and one-year access to imagery collected by other ICEYE spacecraft. Ukraine will remain the sole owner of the satellite for as long as it remains in orbit, and if the satellite fails, the company is obliged to provide Ukraine with a new one.

    https://api.kyivindependent.com/storage/1-2-1661595041Bl3Gc-1080x1080.jpg
    The image of the Crimean Bridge that connects mainland Russia with Russian-occupied Crimea made with a Finnish-produced satellite ICEYE.

    That bridge is a vulnerable point for the maintenance of Russia's hold on Crimea.

    https://kyivindependent.com/national/ukrainian-charity-buys-satellite-for-the-army-how-will-it-help-fight-against-russia

    If that bridge is still intact, one has to wonder why or how?
    This is presumably the Kerch Bridge, which some Ukrainian statements have described as an illegal structure and which, it seems highly likely, they would wish to destroy. The issue being that it's very large and a very long way behind the front line. I assume that the Ukrainian Armed Forces lack munitions of sufficient range and power to blow it up, but stand to be corrected by the course of events.
    There is a Russian Rom Com (called Crimean Bridge, Made With Love) about it if anybody wants some Sunday afternoon viewing.
    Just watched "The Train" mit Burt Lancaster on TV :)
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 8,604
    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    And on it goes


    “BBC tells its staff to watch out for 170 different forms of 'unconscious bias' which could fuel 'discomfort'... including discrimination based on a colleague's hobbies”


    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11153049/BBC-tells-staff-watch-170-different-forms-unconscious-bias.html

    Surely there is genuine unconscious bias: such as the US research that shows that male teachers in co-ed schools are far more likely to call on boys with their hands up over girls. And I suspect that's something that - if brought to ones' attention - is usually quickly corrected.

    But that's not about "discomfort".

    Of course, this is a Daily Mail article, so I probably shouldn't read too much into it.
    Apparently Jennifer Lopez fired dancers based on their star sign. That’s bias.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 30,637
    edited August 2022

    Leon said:

    The Calvine UFO photo


    An interview with a Scottish photographer who saw all six images

    https://twitter.com/the_jandashow/status/1561374479464517642?s=20&t=0ckT2y-NECV25SaJGx8wyA


    He is really quite convincing that this is a secret US stealth craft, floating in the sky. It explains almost everything

    So all the debunkers saying "rock in a loch", "reflection", "hanging ornament", "mountaintop" are wrong, and badly wrong. Equally the UFOlogists convinced it is aliens are also wrong. Or so it seems

    But WTF is that US tech?!



    An interview with a photographer who claims to have seen all six photos. Very important distinction. You are so gullible at times.
    DUH

    Do some research. Watch that interview. The only non alien explanation that makes any sense is secret US tech

    All the debunking theories have been debunked ("rock in a loch" etc). The idea it is some hugely elaborate 30 year long conspiracy is more far fetched than a US stealth craft

    There is an ex-US base Machrihanish on the west coast of Scotland which fits this thesis exactly. The US is known to test new craft/tech on allies like the UK, to see how they perform in "action" - before using them against actual enemies. The planes are Tornadoes not Harriers, which explains the lack of Harriers in the records

    This explains all the behaviour of the MoD, the letter to the US defence dept, and so on
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 10,792
    You locked yourselves down!

    If you stayed indoors for months on end because a pair of incompetent fucking charlatans like Johnson and Hancock told you to and you are now sad/angry about it then you only have one person to blame.
  • darkagedarkage Posts: 3,338
    edited August 2022
    Leon said:

    darkage said:

    fpt

    If woke is a direct threat to western civilisation, then we do need it properly defined. The fact that most people don’t know what it is or believe, apparently wrongly, that it is the new “political correctness gone mad” (largely because that’s how it’s reported in the right wing media) shows that those who do see anti-woke as being the defining struggle of the 21st century need to start explaining it a lot better and disassociating it from right wing hobby horses like Hard Brexit, climate change denial, sending refugees to Rwanda and opposition to working from home. If they don’t the war will be lost. You can’t win a battle for civilisation by alienating 50% or more of the population.

    Put another way, if people like Jacob Rees Mogg, Laurence Fox and Nigel Farage are the people making your case, you’re in very bad trouble.

    @SouthamObserver
    The rhetorical game about what woke is and what it isn't is ultimately a empty distraction.
    I would read one of Douglas Murrays last two books (the 'madness of crowds' or 'the war on the west') and try and explain how he is wrong.
    I think Murray is over provocative and dramatic, and lacks solutions, but I find his diagnosis of the problem very convincing.


    If he needs a comparison, I'd ask @SouthamObserver to define Fascism. I guess he will struggle, as political philosophers have always struggled, because doing this is notoriously difficult. There is no single founding text of Fascism, no agreed corpus of rules, beliefs, tenets. And the label "Fascist" has been applied to multiple different things, from Islamofascism to the modern Tory Party

    And yet, even though it is undefined, I am sure @SouthamObserver would want us to fight Fascism. Read across for the studied enigma that is Wokeness. Indeed part of the reason Wokeness is so insidious and menacing is that it comes in multiple guises, from "decolonisation" to Extreme Trans Rights. It is a hydra
    Yes, except with fascism there is this clear historical example, IE the Nazis.

    In the end, there will probably be a unpleasant majoritarian movement that comes in and crushes all this stuff, and it won't be too concerned about trivialities like the definition of 'woke'. People generally think that their country isn't evil, and that they haven't done anything wrong for being white. Trump and Le Pen came very close to winning by appealing to similar sentiments. It is folly to think these problems have gone away.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 49,002

    Two observations: The word "lockdown" does not appear in the index to Deborah Birx's "Silent Invasion", and I don't recall her using it much in the book, though many polticians here in the US did.

    But she does criticize the US over and over, for failing to test as often, and as intelligently, as we should have. For example: "What is clear is had we been testing and sequencing at the same level as the UK, we would have seen that the highly contagious variant was already here. The UK had dramatically lower hospitalizations and deaths with both their Delta and Omicron surge compared to the United States. In January 2021, we were on par with the population-adjusted Covid-19 deaths with Europe. Since then we have had 20 percent more fatalities that the UK." (p. 463)

    Her 20 years in the US Army makes her believe that, if we know where the enemy is, we can defeat them.

    With the exception of schools (thanks LAUSD!), the UK lockdowns were wildly more stringent than ones in - say - Los Angeles.

    There were never any restrictions on mixing or visiting other people's homes or spending time in the park or on the beach. And restrictions on outdoor dining or bars were very short-lived.

    And that's the thing, isn't it?

    Some countries got some things right, and others got other things. We all got things wrong, albeit different things.

    In retrospect, we probably should have been quicker to act at the start of the pandemic. And we should probably have been better at quickly removing restrictions that had massive societal impact for very limited effect on the spread of the disease. And once the most vulnerable were jabbed, we should have been on a one-way path to no restrictions.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 11,576

    In Spectator, which is the source for this discussion, Sunak is clear he's not saying lockdowns weren't the answer. His focus is that there was no serious discussion whatsoever of the downsides before it was imposed on millions of people.

    And the public should a) have been exposed to discussions about the pros and cons (i.e. treated like adults and not kids by the elite) b) and have not been so scared by the advertising campaigns warning of total doom.

    It also seems that minutes were doctored to remove sci opinions that differed from the main strategy of locking down. And as he points out it is all very odd when Whitty and Valance were initially against lockdowns.

    There seems to have been no attempt to do even a basic cost/benefit analysis.

    It is a shocking read about the lax way we are governed.

    Frankly, I don't believe Sunak. He's made too many statements on this direction that are obviously in conflict with previously published stuff.

    For example, we know there were long detailed discussions on the pros and cons of lockdown prior to them being imposed (and there were published SAGE documents from the start of March onwards). He even says that Whitty and Valance started on the anti-lockdown side (so - this somehow means that there were no discussions). Even at the time, the question of whether we were going to try to "flatten the sombrero" rather than try to lockdown - remember that? It gets raised a lot.

    The March advice and meetings are available here: https://www.gov.uk/government/collections/sage-meetings-march-2020

    Even as early as 4th March, there were detailed summaries of the negative effects on school closures (eg here: https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/887574/04-spi-b-insights-on-combined-behavioural-and-social-interventions.pdf)

    As with Leon, I agree that Lockdown 1 was inescapable.

    Sunak complaining ahead of Lockdown 2 and 3 that there weren't detailed economic projections for them, given the make-up and direction given SAGE, might be sound - if it wasn't that he had access to the entire resources of the Treasury

    Why the hell, if the Chancellor wanted economic modelling done, didn't he use the resources of the Treasury? Who's job did he think it was to get economic information on the unfolding of the likely ways forwards? Complaining that he and the decision makers were overruled by an advisory group (when the Cabinet were known to have made calls against SAGE advice already), and whining that no-one else turned up and handed him economic modelling makes him look like a twat, frankly. That was his job, if anyone's, wasn't it?

    Looks to me like he's flailing around, wanted to try to grab a certain demographic of the Fraser Nelson/Toby Young/Telegraph area, thought saying this would help, and doesn't actually care what's true or untrue. Which is poor politics - you're supposed to hint or imply or 'just ask questions' rather than say stuff that's either demonstrably untrue or makes you look a prat with a moment's thought. But Sunak hasn't impressed on his politicking skills at any point in this contest.
    Excellent post.

    The UK public are not stupid. We area fairly law abiding people who will go with what we are told if to do if it seems reasonable. We also know that the government were doing their best at the time on limited information and we should be kind with hindsight - but learn the correct lessons for next time (and there will be a next time).

    Personally I hope that the future grant funding for the pandemic modelling groups should be assessed on how good their models were. Professor Ferguson did not do very well for example.
    Ironically it now looks as though Ferguson's initial models were too optimistic.
    The 48,000 max deaths figure is obviously way too low now.


    It's clear that both the highest R0 considered and the IFRs assumed were too low.
    In retrospect, that bottom line should have been something like:

    750,000 -- 200,000 -- 130,000 -- 90,000 with an R0 of 3.3 or so.
    As has already been mentioned, the modelling tended to present extreme cases where no population behaviour was self modified, as If people would behave entirely as normal unless explicitly told not to. This was clearly nuts. It was the same issue around omicron and Christmas. Most people started to change behaviour in order to avoid missing Christmas, yet the modelling being pushed assumed none of this, and to make it worse, someone, somewhere pushed the worst case scenarios to politicians to poorly scientifically educated to know what was going on.
    The thing is - the modelling always included loads of these as options and possibilities.
    The media always leapt on the most dramatic one and put it forwards, and it was from both ends. Some to try to portray it as "Oh my God we're doomed!" Others to portray it as "How ridiculous is this?"

    That table I posted was from that famous document. In it they state that the "Do nothing" isn't realistic for two reasons: 1, that people will change their behaviour, and 2, there will obviously be something done. It's there as a reference for "If you multiply the IFR by everyone, this is the number of deaths you get."

    Although it does have another role: without vaccines or effective treatments, the number of deaths will eventually reach that number. You just spread them out longer.

    It's now bizarre that Sunak is saying that they removed the details of the models and alternative options, when we all spent months discussing whether SAGE should have put these behind closed doors so that the media couldn't do their inevitable game.
    I can’t recall who it was, but one of the modellers said they did model scenarios where omicron was less severe than other variants (which it was), and if they did, those models did not get to cabinet until the hullabaloo kicked off. I have no doubt that the system skewed to present worse scenarios. Whether it was the modellers, or someone else who firmly believed more action was needed, I don’t know, but someone was always pushing the more, harder levers.

    None of this was easy. People did what they thought was right. I have no doubt that some advisors, from a health perspective, would still have some restrictions today. The issue usually begin where an experts expertise ends. Thus iSAGE in particular has lots of scientists who now think they are experts in epidemiolgy and public health. And most of them are not.
  • FishingFishing Posts: 3,811
    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    These questions are too black and white

    I’m increasingly skeptical about lockdowns 2 and 3. Not worth it. But we had to do some version of lockdown 1 because we had no idea what we were facing

    So how would I answer this question?

    Yep:

    Lockdown 1 was a must.

    Lockdown 2, we should have learned some lessons and done it smarter.

    Lockdown 3 probably shouldn't have happened at all.
    The opposite.

    Lockdowns 1 and 2 shouldn't have happened at all as they only delayed deaths, and then not by very much, and had all sorts of diastrous side effects.

    Lockdown 3 was just about defensible because the vaccines were on the way and the later strains were more infectious.
  • pigeonpigeon Posts: 3,232
    geoffw said:

    pigeon said:

    geoffw said:

    carnforth said:

    From The Times today:


    Looks awesome. Down in Devon with our classic mini, and a fair number of land based ones around. I like them. They don’t disrupt farming below them, are graceful and are helping to reach net zero. No idea why anyone would be against, potentially national parks excepted.
    Birds

    I’d argue largely exaggerated.
    There are always made up excuses for Nimbyism. The sole objection to onshore wind turbines virtually everywhere outside very sensitive landscapes (AONBs, nature reserves, etc.) is "I'm frightened it'll reduce the value of my house" and those advancing alternative suggestions - typically elderly homeowners who, when they aren't being Nimbies, are whining that they need their pensions boosting by another three billion percent because of the cost of electricity - are lying because they don't want to admit to caring about nobody and nothing but their hoard of personal wealth. It's precisely the same for virtually every objection ever raised to the construction of new build homes. Fuck em.
    I'm one of those you decry, and I don't know a single senior citizen who fits your hysterical description.

    Excellent. In that case I take it all back. I am sure that none of them will mind having a lovely wind turbine built just outside their town or village to provide reliable, green electricity, in just the same way as none of them would mind having, say, 30% inheritance tax levied on their estates to help pay for the cost of their social care (rather than loading the whole bloody lot onto working adults, right down to and including eighteen-year-old school leavers earning a pittance on the minimum wage.)

    Pull, as they say, the other one.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 11,576
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    The Calvine UFO photo


    An interview with a Scottish photographer who saw all six images

    https://twitter.com/the_jandashow/status/1561374479464517642?s=20&t=0ckT2y-NECV25SaJGx8wyA


    He is really quite convincing that this is a secret US stealth craft, floating in the sky. It explains almost everything

    So all the debunkers saying "rock in a loch", "reflection", "hanging ornament", "mountaintop" are wrong, and badly wrong. Equally the UFOlogists convinced it is aliens are also wrong. Or so it seems

    But WTF is that US tech?!



    An interview with a photographer who claims to have seen all six photos. Very important distinction. You are so gullible at times.
    DUH

    Do some research. Watch that interview. The only non alien explanation that makes any sense is secret US tech

    All the debunking theories have been debunked ("rock in a loch" etc). The idea it is some hugely elaborate 30 year long conspiracy is more far fetched than a US stealth craft

    There is an ex-US base Machrihanish on the west coast of Scotland which fits this thesis exactly. The US is known to test new craft/tech on allies like the UK, to see how they perform in "action" - before using them against actual enemies. The planes are Tornadoes not Harriers, which explains the lack of Harriers in the records

    This explains all the behaviour of the MoD, the letter to the US defence dept, and so on
    Why did no one in Scotland see this? Where are the other five alleged photos
    . Where are the negatives?

    Fuck it, you may be right, but if they had that kind of tech back then, where is it now?

    I am always sceptical when I hear - there are better videos or photos. They NEVER turn up. Until I see otherwise I don’t believe the other five photos are real. When I see them, I’ll think again.
  • FishingFishing Posts: 3,811
    edited August 2022
    DavidL said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Look at that difference between Remain and Leave. Remainers probably want us locked down forever. What is wrong with them?

    Is that the dumbest post of the day? It comes so easily to you, and I've been trying so hard all day!
    I was being provocative. It seems to have worked


    But it is an intriguing difference. So many ultra lockdowners on Twitter are also angry Remoaners. Why?
    It's odd. Using generalities to their limit leavers were older and more vulnerable to Covid. Remainers were younger and less so. Lockdown had much more negative effects on younger people in work. The effect on the retired was much less severe. And yet there is a clear difference.

    I would tentatively suggest that remainers tend to a more pro government position. They like more regulation, whether from the EU or their own government. They don't trust others to behave as sensibly as they consider they do themselves.
    Also don't forget the influence of the government itself on people's opinions - it refused to conduct a proper cost-benefit analysis, did its best to scare people shitless about a virus with a terrifying 99.8% recovery rate, and has also tried to hide or play down the costs as much as possible.

    So I'm actually surprised that even 20% of the population say that the lockdowns weren't worth it.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 49,002
    Fishing said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    These questions are too black and white

    I’m increasingly skeptical about lockdowns 2 and 3. Not worth it. But we had to do some version of lockdown 1 because we had no idea what we were facing

    So how would I answer this question?

    Yep:

    Lockdown 1 was a must.

    Lockdown 2, we should have learned some lessons and done it smarter.

    Lockdown 3 probably shouldn't have happened at all.
    The opposite.

    Lockdowns 1 and 2 shouldn't have happened at all as they only delayed deaths, and then not by very much, and had all sorts of diastrous side effects.

    Lockdown 3 was just about defensible because the vaccines were on the way and the later strains were more infectious.
    Hmmm: well, if you're going to take that view, then surely lockdown 2 is surely the most defensible, because at that point the vaccines had been proven to work, they are being manufactured, and you are only waiting to get them in people's arms.
  • PBers, read it and weep . . .

    LA Times, via Seattle Times ($) - Meghan Markle knocks Joe Rogan off the top of Spotify’s podcast chart

    Meghan Markle is not just the Duchess of Sussex. She’s now also the Queen of Podcasts.

    Markle’s new Spotify-exclusive podcast, “Archetypes,” surpassed regular chart-topper “The Joe Rogan Experience” this week on Spotify’s list of most-listened-to podcasts in six regions, including the U.S. and the U.K.

    The show’s inaugural episode premiered Tuesday and featured tennis legend Serena Williams as its first guest. The podcast also topped the charts in Canada, Ireland, New Zealand and Australia.

    “Archetypes” was conceived as an outlet for Markle to explore the stereotypes surrounding women of all ages through “uncensored conversations with women who know all too well how these typecasts shape narratives,” according to a March statement from Spotify.

    In a preview for the podcast, the duchess promised to “dissect, explore and subvert the labels that try to hold women back” through conversations with them.

    In the debut episode, Markle and Williams discussed the double standard women face when they are labeled “ambitious,” urged listeners to consider and “recogniz[e] what people don’t see” and shared their personal experiences as friends, celebrities and moms.

    Williams shared a story about the guilt she felt as a mom during a match at the 2018 French Open, which took place only hours after her daughter Olympia fell out of her high chair and broke her wrist.

    Markle talked about her own experience with fulfilling professional obligations amid emotional turmoil on her 2019 visit to South Africa — months before she and Prince Harry stepped back as senior royals following personal attacks on the couple. . . .

  • LeonLeon Posts: 30,637

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    The Calvine UFO photo


    An interview with a Scottish photographer who saw all six images

    https://twitter.com/the_jandashow/status/1561374479464517642?s=20&t=0ckT2y-NECV25SaJGx8wyA


    He is really quite convincing that this is a secret US stealth craft, floating in the sky. It explains almost everything

    So all the debunkers saying "rock in a loch", "reflection", "hanging ornament", "mountaintop" are wrong, and badly wrong. Equally the UFOlogists convinced it is aliens are also wrong. Or so it seems

    But WTF is that US tech?!



    An interview with a photographer who claims to have seen all six photos. Very important distinction. You are so gullible at times.
    DUH

    Do some research. Watch that interview. The only non alien explanation that makes any sense is secret US tech

    All the debunking theories have been debunked ("rock in a loch" etc). The idea it is some hugely elaborate 30 year long conspiracy is more far fetched than a US stealth craft

    There is an ex-US base Machrihanish on the west coast of Scotland which fits this thesis exactly. The US is known to test new craft/tech on allies like the UK, to see how they perform in "action" - before using them against actual enemies. The planes are Tornadoes not Harriers, which explains the lack of Harriers in the records

    This explains all the behaviour of the MoD, the letter to the US defence dept, and so on
    Why did no one in Scotland see this? Where are the other five alleged photos
    . Where are the negatives?

    Fuck it, you may be right, but if they had that kind of tech back then, where is it now?

    I am always sceptical when I hear - there are better videos or photos. They NEVER turn up. Until I see otherwise I don’t believe the other five photos are real. When I see them, I’ll think again.
    Other people have seen it - in Scotland


    That interview with the photographer is insanely long and detailed - I'm giving you a precis - but it is by far the most comprehensive, convincing explanation I have heard.

    Incidentally "US tech" is the conclusion reached by the guy who spent years tracking down this photo - David Clark. And he was a definite skeptic before he found the image: calling it a hoax. Now he says "US tech"

    Until a better explanation comes along - and I doubt that it will - that's my assumption

    The US tech hypothesis also explains why the photos disappeared. A D Notice went out, suppressing the story. The tech was/is secret
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 49,002
    DougSeal said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    And on it goes


    “BBC tells its staff to watch out for 170 different forms of 'unconscious bias' which could fuel 'discomfort'... including discrimination based on a colleague's hobbies”


    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11153049/BBC-tells-staff-watch-170-different-forms-unconscious-bias.html

    Surely there is genuine unconscious bias: such as the US research that shows that male teachers in co-ed schools are far more likely to call on boys with their hands up over girls. And I suspect that's something that - if brought to ones' attention - is usually quickly corrected.

    But that's not about "discomfort".

    Of course, this is a Daily Mail article, so I probably shouldn't read too much into it.
    Apparently Jennifer Lopez fired dancers based on their star sign. That’s bias.
    The head of a trading desk at Barings used to take a whole stack of CVs, divide them in half, and throw one half in the bin.

    "I hate unlucky people," he'd mutter.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 49,002

    PBers, read it and weep . . .

    LA Times, via Seattle Times ($) - Meghan Markle knocks Joe Rogan off the top of Spotify’s podcast chart

    Meghan Markle is not just the Duchess of Sussex. She’s now also the Queen of Podcasts.

    Markle’s new Spotify-exclusive podcast, “Archetypes,” surpassed regular chart-topper “The Joe Rogan Experience” this week on Spotify’s list of most-listened-to podcasts in six regions, including the U.S. and the U.K.

    The show’s inaugural episode premiered Tuesday and featured tennis legend Serena Williams as its first guest. The podcast also topped the charts in Canada, Ireland, New Zealand and Australia.

    “Archetypes” was conceived as an outlet for Markle to explore the stereotypes surrounding women of all ages through “uncensored conversations with women who know all too well how these typecasts shape narratives,” according to a March statement from Spotify.

    In a preview for the podcast, the duchess promised to “dissect, explore and subvert the labels that try to hold women back” through conversations with them.

    In the debut episode, Markle and Williams discussed the double standard women face when they are labeled “ambitious,” urged listeners to consider and “recogniz[e] what people don’t see” and shared their personal experiences as friends, celebrities and moms.

    Williams shared a story about the guilt she felt as a mom during a match at the 2018 French Open, which took place only hours after her daughter Olympia fell out of her high chair and broke her wrist.

    Markle talked about her own experience with fulfilling professional obligations amid emotional turmoil on her 2019 visit to South Africa — months before she and Prince Harry stepped back as senior royals following personal attacks on the couple. . . .

    Let's see where it is in a couple of months, shall we?

    (Although, to give her some credit, I haven't seen a single advertisement for "Archetypes", not even in the Spotify app. So, clearly it's managed some buzz all on its own.)
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 49,002
    Dura_Ace said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    The Calvine UFO photo


    An interview with a Scottish photographer who saw all six images

    https://twitter.com/the_jandashow/status/1561374479464517642?s=20&t=0ckT2y-NECV25SaJGx8wyA


    He is really quite convincing that this is a secret US stealth craft, floating in the sky. It explains almost everything

    So all the debunkers saying "rock in a loch", "reflection", "hanging ornament", "mountaintop" are wrong, and badly wrong. Equally the UFOlogists convinced it is aliens are also wrong. Or so it seems

    But WTF is that US tech?!



    An interview with a photographer who claims to have seen all six photos. Very important distinction. You are so gullible at times.
    DUH

    Do some research. Watch that interview. The only non alien explanation that makes any sense is secret US tech

    All the debunking theories have been debunked ("rock in a loch" etc). The idea it is some hugely elaborate 30 year long conspiracy is more far fetched than a US stealth craft

    There is an ex-US base Machrihanish on the west coast of Scotland which fits this thesis exactly. The US is known to test new craft/tech on allies like the UK, to see how they perform in "action" - before using them against actual enemies. The planes are Tornadoes not Harriers, which explains the lack of Harriers in the records

    This explains all the behaviour of the MoD, the letter to the US defence dept, and so on
    This is fucking nonsense.

    The US have an 11,000 sq. Km test range in Nevada so why are they going to test classified aircraft on the west coast of Scotland close to the major transatlantic commercial routes?
    Eh?

    If it's in Nevada, why isn't it 4,250 square miles???
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 20,506



    My beautiful girl Stella, just short of 16 years old, just went to sleep for the last time.
    There is a hole in the universe.

    Bless you. Really sorry to hear that. I am sure she had the lottery win of dog's lives with you.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 30,637
    Dura_Ace said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    The Calvine UFO photo


    An interview with a Scottish photographer who saw all six images

    https://twitter.com/the_jandashow/status/1561374479464517642?s=20&t=0ckT2y-NECV25SaJGx8wyA


    He is really quite convincing that this is a secret US stealth craft, floating in the sky. It explains almost everything

    So all the debunkers saying "rock in a loch", "reflection", "hanging ornament", "mountaintop" are wrong, and badly wrong. Equally the UFOlogists convinced it is aliens are also wrong. Or so it seems

    But WTF is that US tech?!



    An interview with a photographer who claims to have seen all six photos. Very important distinction. You are so gullible at times.
    DUH

    Do some research. Watch that interview. The only non alien explanation that makes any sense is secret US tech

    All the debunking theories have been debunked ("rock in a loch" etc). The idea it is some hugely elaborate 30 year long conspiracy is more far fetched than a US stealth craft

    There is an ex-US base Machrihanish on the west coast of Scotland which fits this thesis exactly. The US is known to test new craft/tech on allies like the UK, to see how they perform in "action" - before using them against actual enemies. The planes are Tornadoes not Harriers, which explains the lack of Harriers in the records

    This explains all the behaviour of the MoD, the letter to the US defence dept, and so on
    This is fucking nonsense.

    The US have an 11,000 sq. Km test range in Nevada so why are they going to test classified aircraft on the west coast of Scotland close to the major transatlantic commercial routes?
    There are experts in that video who say this is standard military procedure

    They have to test these craft in the field, and see how they fare against peer or near peer countries (after testing them at home first). But you don't do that by buzzing China or Russia, giving away your secrets, and starting a war, you do it by buzzing a close ally - they say Canada or the UK are the ideal - who have good military tech of their own and who will respond in a way somewhat like an enemy

    If you have a spare two hours (!!) I recommend watching the whole video. They are diligent to the point of exhaustiveness, and they come close to proving their case, to my mind
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 11,576
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    The Calvine UFO photo


    An interview with a Scottish photographer who saw all six images

    https://twitter.com/the_jandashow/status/1561374479464517642?s=20&t=0ckT2y-NECV25SaJGx8wyA


    He is really quite convincing that this is a secret US stealth craft, floating in the sky. It explains almost everything

    So all the debunkers saying "rock in a loch", "reflection", "hanging ornament", "mountaintop" are wrong, and badly wrong. Equally the UFOlogists convinced it is aliens are also wrong. Or so it seems

    But WTF is that US tech?!



    An interview with a photographer who claims to have seen all six photos. Very important distinction. You are so gullible at times.
    DUH

    Do some research. Watch that interview. The only non alien explanation that makes any sense is secret US tech

    All the debunking theories have been debunked ("rock in a loch" etc). The idea it is some hugely elaborate 30 year long conspiracy is more far fetched than a US stealth craft

    There is an ex-US base Machrihanish on the west coast of Scotland which fits this thesis exactly. The US is known to test new craft/tech on allies like the UK, to see how they perform in "action" - before using them against actual enemies. The planes are Tornadoes not Harriers, which explains the lack of Harriers in the records

    This explains all the behaviour of the MoD, the letter to the US defence dept, and so on
    Why did no one in Scotland see this? Where are the other five alleged photos
    . Where are the negatives?

    Fuck it, you may be right, but if they had that kind of tech back then, where is it now?

    I am always sceptical when I hear - there are better videos or photos. They NEVER turn up. Until I see otherwise I don’t believe the other five photos are real. When I see them, I’ll think again.
    Other people have seen it - in Scotland


    That interview with the photographer is insanely long and detailed - I'm giving you a precis - but it is by far the most comprehensive, convincing explanation I have heard.

    Incidentally "US tech" is the conclusion reached by the guy who spent years tracking down this photo - David Clark. And he was a definite skeptic before he found the image: calling it a hoax. Now he says "US tech"

    Until a better explanation comes along - and I doubt that it will - that's my assumption

    The US tech hypothesis also explains why the photos disappeared. A D Notice went out, suppressing the story. The tech was/is secret
    Who in Scotland saw this diamond shaped object on the same day? Dave Clarke has a long term stake in UFOs as I am sure you know (Fortean Times author that you are). At the moment a story is being spun from one photo. I don’t regard the possibility that the photo is not actually an object hovering in the sky to have been disproven yet. There is something off about it. And as I keep saying, be skeptic all about the other five photos and negatives.
  • rcs1000 said:

    DougSeal said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    And on it goes


    “BBC tells its staff to watch out for 170 different forms of 'unconscious bias' which could fuel 'discomfort'... including discrimination based on a colleague's hobbies”


    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11153049/BBC-tells-staff-watch-170-different-forms-unconscious-bias.html

    Surely there is genuine unconscious bias: such as the US research that shows that male teachers in co-ed schools are far more likely to call on boys with their hands up over girls. And I suspect that's something that - if brought to ones' attention - is usually quickly corrected.

    But that's not about "discomfort".

    Of course, this is a Daily Mail article, so I probably shouldn't read too much into it.
    Apparently Jennifer Lopez fired dancers based on their star sign. That’s bias.
    The head of a trading desk at Barings used to take a whole stack of CVs, divide them in half, and throw one half in the bin.

    "I hate unlucky people," he'd mutter.
    But if he kept just the bottom "halves", how would he know who the applicants were?!!!
  • pigeonpigeon Posts: 3,232
    Dura_Ace said:

    You locked yourselves down!

    If you stayed indoors for months on end because a pair of incompetent fucking charlatans like Johnson and Hancock told you to and you are now sad/angry about it then you only have one person to blame.

    1. I live with a clinically extremely vulnerable person and my primary concern during the pre-vaccine stage of the pandemic was that, being forced to go out to work every day, I would bring it home with me and that they would end up dying alone in hospital as a result
    2. Even leaving this aside, much of lockdown was indeed forced because places where one would conventionally meet to socialise were forcibly shut down by law. If you wanted to be defiant you could go to one another's houses or meet in a park or some such place, but that was about it

    I therefore submit that there are reasonable grounds for those outside of the anarchist do what the fuck I want brigade to, nonetheless, feel a mite peeved that the aforementioned incompetent charlatans put Draconian measures into legislation that they felt free to flout - without, as it transpired, any fear of retribution from some of the developed world's most useless police forces.
  • Andy_CookeAndy_Cooke Posts: 4,510
    Fishing said:

    DavidL said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Look at that difference between Remain and Leave. Remainers probably want us locked down forever. What is wrong with them?

    Is that the dumbest post of the day? It comes so easily to you, and I've been trying so hard all day!
    I was being provocative. It seems to have worked


    But it is an intriguing difference. So many ultra lockdowners on Twitter are also angry Remoaners. Why?
    It's odd. Using generalities to their limit leavers were older and more vulnerable to Covid. Remainers were younger and less so. Lockdown had much more negative effects on younger people in work. The effect on the retired was much less severe. And yet there is a clear difference.

    I would tentatively suggest that remainers tend to a more pro government position. They like more regulation, whether from the EU or their own government. They don't trust others to behave as sensibly as they consider they do themselves.
    Also don't forget the influence of the government itself on people's opinions - it refused to conduct a proper cost-benefit analysis, did its best to scare people shitless about a virus with a terrifying 99.8% recovery rate, and has also tried to hide or play down the costs as much as possible.

    So I'm actually surprised that even 20% of the population say that the lockdowns weren't worth it.
    You assume the IFR was 0.2%?

    Well - we know the population of England is a bit of 56 million.
    Of whom, about 10% had covid by mid-December.

    80,000 covid deaths in England by end of December (not using the 28 day rule, but the death certificates).

    Gives an IFR of 1.4%.

    Where do you get "a 99.8% recovery rate" from?

    It's an involved and complex subject which isn't helped by using inaccurate information.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 19,093
    Fishing said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    These questions are too black and white

    I’m increasingly skeptical about lockdowns 2 and 3. Not worth it. But we had to do some version of lockdown 1 because we had no idea what we were facing

    So how would I answer this question?

    Yep:

    Lockdown 1 was a must.

    Lockdown 2, we should have learned some lessons and done it smarter.

    Lockdown 3 probably shouldn't have happened at all.
    The opposite.

    Lockdowns 1 and 2 shouldn't have happened at all as they only delayed deaths, and then not by very much, and had all sorts of diastrous side effects.

    Lockdown 3 was just about defensible because the vaccines were on the way and the later strains were more infectious.
    Your attitude is one of "come on Covid, you think your f*****' hard dontcha? goo on son, give it your best and I'll smash yer face in". I'm not sure without lockdown 1 and 2 that would have worked too well for you.

    I remember on here a poster @eadric , claiming up to 800,000 Covid deaths if we didn't lockdown in March 2020. He doesn't post here anymore, maybe Covid got him anyway.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 19,093
    rcs1000 said:

    DougSeal said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    And on it goes


    “BBC tells its staff to watch out for 170 different forms of 'unconscious bias' which could fuel 'discomfort'... including discrimination based on a colleague's hobbies”


    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11153049/BBC-tells-staff-watch-170-different-forms-unconscious-bias.html

    Surely there is genuine unconscious bias: such as the US research that shows that male teachers in co-ed schools are far more likely to call on boys with their hands up over girls. And I suspect that's something that - if brought to ones' attention - is usually quickly corrected.

    But that's not about "discomfort".

    Of course, this is a Daily Mail article, so I probably shouldn't read too much into it.
    Apparently Jennifer Lopez fired dancers based on their star sign. That’s bias.
    The head of a trading desk at Barings used to take a whole stack of CVs, divide them in half, and throw one half in the bin.

    "I hate unlucky people," he'd mutter.
    Was he working at Barings when it failed? The self loathing must have been immense.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    Dura_Ace said:

    You locked yourselves down!

    If you stayed indoors for months on end because a pair of incompetent fucking charlatans like Johnson and Hancock told you to and you are now sad/angry about it then you only have one person to blame.

    There was nothing to do when you got outside, if your idea of fun excludes hooning about in a car.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 49,002

    rcs1000 said:

    DougSeal said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    And on it goes


    “BBC tells its staff to watch out for 170 different forms of 'unconscious bias' which could fuel 'discomfort'... including discrimination based on a colleague's hobbies”


    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11153049/BBC-tells-staff-watch-170-different-forms-unconscious-bias.html

    Surely there is genuine unconscious bias: such as the US research that shows that male teachers in co-ed schools are far more likely to call on boys with their hands up over girls. And I suspect that's something that - if brought to ones' attention - is usually quickly corrected.

    But that's not about "discomfort".

    Of course, this is a Daily Mail article, so I probably shouldn't read too much into it.
    Apparently Jennifer Lopez fired dancers based on their star sign. That’s bias.
    The head of a trading desk at Barings used to take a whole stack of CVs, divide them in half, and throw one half in the bin.

    "I hate unlucky people," he'd mutter.
    Was he working at Barings when it failed? The self loathing must have been immense.
    He was.

    And self loathing requires self awareness.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 30,637

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    The Calvine UFO photo


    An interview with a Scottish photographer who saw all six images

    https://twitter.com/the_jandashow/status/1561374479464517642?s=20&t=0ckT2y-NECV25SaJGx8wyA


    He is really quite convincing that this is a secret US stealth craft, floating in the sky. It explains almost everything

    So all the debunkers saying "rock in a loch", "reflection", "hanging ornament", "mountaintop" are wrong, and badly wrong. Equally the UFOlogists convinced it is aliens are also wrong. Or so it seems

    But WTF is that US tech?!



    An interview with a photographer who claims to have seen all six photos. Very important distinction. You are so gullible at times.
    DUH

    Do some research. Watch that interview. The only non alien explanation that makes any sense is secret US tech

    All the debunking theories have been debunked ("rock in a loch" etc). The idea it is some hugely elaborate 30 year long conspiracy is more far fetched than a US stealth craft

    There is an ex-US base Machrihanish on the west coast of Scotland which fits this thesis exactly. The US is known to test new craft/tech on allies like the UK, to see how they perform in "action" - before using them against actual enemies. The planes are Tornadoes not Harriers, which explains the lack of Harriers in the records

    This explains all the behaviour of the MoD, the letter to the US defence dept, and so on
    Why did no one in Scotland see this? Where are the other five alleged photos
    . Where are the negatives?

    Fuck it, you may be right, but if they had that kind of tech back then, where is it now?

    I am always sceptical when I hear - there are better videos or photos. They NEVER turn up. Until I see otherwise I don’t believe the other five photos are real. When I see them, I’ll think again.
    Other people have seen it - in Scotland


    That interview with the photographer is insanely long and detailed - I'm giving you a precis - but it is by far the most comprehensive, convincing explanation I have heard.

    Incidentally "US tech" is the conclusion reached by the guy who spent years tracking down this photo - David Clark. And he was a definite skeptic before he found the image: calling it a hoax. Now he says "US tech"

    Until a better explanation comes along - and I doubt that it will - that's my assumption

    The US tech hypothesis also explains why the photos disappeared. A D Notice went out, suppressing the story. The tech was/is secret
    Who in Scotland saw this diamond shaped object on the same day? Dave Clarke has a long term stake in UFOs as I am sure you know (Fortean Times author that you are). At the moment a story is being spun from one photo. I don’t regard the possibility that the photo is not actually an object hovering in the sky to have been disproven yet. There is something off about it. And as I keep saying, be skeptic all about the other five photos and negatives.
    A guy who finds a UFO photo after searching for years is likely to be interested in UFOs. That's just the territory we are in

    I get your skepticism but I think it is overdone here. All the debunking attempts have failed, they don't explain everything, they are all flawed in several ways. Rock in a loch. Cloud inversion. Daft

    Which leaves us with an enormously strange and prolonged hoax, a US stealth craft, or something even wackier

    All are weird. For me the most parsimonious explanation is a US craft
  • darkagedarkage Posts: 3,338
    pigeon said:

    geoffw said:

    carnforth said:

    From The Times today:


    Looks awesome. Down in Devon with our classic mini, and a fair number of land based ones around. I like them. They don’t disrupt farming below them, are graceful and are helping to reach net zero. No idea why anyone would be against, potentially national parks excepted.
    Birds

    I’d argue largely exaggerated.
    There are always made up excuses for Nimbyism. The sole objection to onshore wind turbines virtually everywhere outside very sensitive landscapes (AONBs, nature reserves, etc.) is "I'm frightened it'll reduce the value of my house" and those advancing alternative suggestions - typically elderly homeowners who, when they aren't being Nimbies, are whining that they need their pensions boosting by another three billion percent because of the cost of electricity - are lying because they don't want to admit to caring about nobody and nothing but their hoard of personal wealth. It's precisely the same for virtually every objection ever raised to the construction of new build homes. Fuck em.
    It is often resistance to change, but there are always legitimate landscape issues regarding the siting of wind turbines - as indeed there are with housing development. The strategic problem is that the government doesn't want to take any leadership on the issue, by directing what is going where. It is in my view a mistake to start thinking this is just NIMBYism.
  • jamesdoylejamesdoyle Posts: 313
    DougSeal said:


    My beautiful girl Stella, just short of 16 years old, just went to sleep for the last time.
    There is a hole in the universe.

    So sorry. Was just looking at my own 16 yo boy Archy thinking about what inevitability must soon come. You have my utmost sympathy but she clearly had a long, loved and well lived life.
    Thank you. She was diagnosed two years ago with degenerative myelopathy, an incurable condition quite common among big dogs: the nerves degenerate so that they gradually lose feedback from, and control over, their limbs, starting from the back. The vet said she could have six months to two years. She had almost the top end of that.

    I hope Archie is fit and well, and gives you much joy and love for many years. Let's see some pictures!
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 8,604
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    The Calvine UFO photo


    An interview with a Scottish photographer who saw all six images

    https://twitter.com/the_jandashow/status/1561374479464517642?s=20&t=0ckT2y-NECV25SaJGx8wyA


    He is really quite convincing that this is a secret US stealth craft, floating in the sky. It explains almost everything

    So all the debunkers saying "rock in a loch", "reflection", "hanging ornament", "mountaintop" are wrong, and badly wrong. Equally the UFOlogists convinced it is aliens are also wrong. Or so it seems

    But WTF is that US tech?!



    An interview with a photographer who claims to have seen all six photos. Very important distinction. You are so gullible at times.
    DUH

    Do some research. Watch that interview. The only non alien explanation that makes any sense is secret US tech

    All the debunking theories have been debunked ("rock in a loch" etc). The idea it is some hugely elaborate 30 year long conspiracy is more far fetched than a US stealth craft

    There is an ex-US base Machrihanish on the west coast of Scotland which fits this thesis exactly. The US is known to test new craft/tech on allies like the UK, to see how they perform in "action" - before using them against actual enemies. The planes are Tornadoes not Harriers, which explains the lack of Harriers in the records

    This explains all the behaviour of the MoD, the letter to the US defence dept, and so on
    Why did no one in Scotland see this? Where are the other five alleged photos
    . Where are the negatives?

    Fuck it, you may be right, but if they had that kind of tech back then, where is it now?

    I am always sceptical when I hear - there are better videos or photos. They NEVER turn up. Until I see otherwise I don’t believe the other five photos are real. When I see them, I’ll think again.
    Other people have seen it - in Scotland


    That interview with the photographer is insanely long and detailed - I'm giving you a precis - but it is by far the most comprehensive, convincing explanation I have heard.

    Incidentally "US tech" is the conclusion reached by the guy who spent years tracking down this photo - David Clark. And he was a definite skeptic before he found the image: calling it a hoax. Now he says "US tech"

    Until a better explanation comes along - and I doubt that it will - that's my assumption

    The US tech hypothesis also explains why the photos disappeared. A D Notice went out, suppressing the story. The tech was/is secret
    The USA is a vast country covered in literally millions of acres of wilderness. The whole of the U.K. is about as big as a small to medium sized state like Oregon. Scotland is about the same size as, I dunno…West Virginia at a guess. There are huge spaces, airbases and testing facilities galore in the lower 48 alone, before you even start on the great frozen north of Alaska.

    So what’s the logical thing to do with this ultra secret tech? Yeah, they’ll come and test it in Scotland. Perhaps the pilots wanted to couple it with a golf weekend? Perhaps they wanted to show off to a couple of passing transatlantic airliners? Maybe this was taken in August and the test commander wanted to try out his new routine in a mid afternoon slot at the Tron? Maybe they are Scotch aficionados? Hibs fans? Or maybe this is just bollocks?

  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 11,576
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    The Calvine UFO photo


    An interview with a Scottish photographer who saw all six images

    https://twitter.com/the_jandashow/status/1561374479464517642?s=20&t=0ckT2y-NECV25SaJGx8wyA


    He is really quite convincing that this is a secret US stealth craft, floating in the sky. It explains almost everything

    So all the debunkers saying "rock in a loch", "reflection", "hanging ornament", "mountaintop" are wrong, and badly wrong. Equally the UFOlogists convinced it is aliens are also wrong. Or so it seems

    But WTF is that US tech?!



    An interview with a photographer who claims to have seen all six photos. Very important distinction. You are so gullible at times.
    DUH

    Do some research. Watch that interview. The only non alien explanation that makes any sense is secret US tech

    All the debunking theories have been debunked ("rock in a loch" etc). The idea it is some hugely elaborate 30 year long conspiracy is more far fetched than a US stealth craft

    There is an ex-US base Machrihanish on the west coast of Scotland which fits this thesis exactly. The US is known to test new craft/tech on allies like the UK, to see how they perform in "action" - before using them against actual enemies. The planes are Tornadoes not Harriers, which explains the lack of Harriers in the records

    This explains all the behaviour of the MoD, the letter to the US defence dept, and so on
    Why did no one in Scotland see this? Where are the other five alleged photos
    . Where are the negatives?

    Fuck it, you may be right, but if they had that kind of tech back then, where is it now?

    I am always sceptical when I hear - there are better videos or photos. They NEVER turn up. Until I see otherwise I don’t believe the other five photos are real. When I see them, I’ll think again.
    Other people have seen it - in Scotland


    That interview with the photographer is insanely long and detailed - I'm giving you a precis - but it is by far the most comprehensive, convincing explanation I have heard.

    Incidentally "US tech" is the conclusion reached by the guy who spent years tracking down this photo - David Clark. And he was a definite skeptic before he found the image: calling it a hoax. Now he says "US tech"

    Until a better explanation comes along - and I doubt that it will - that's my assumption

    The US tech hypothesis also explains why the photos disappeared. A D Notice went out, suppressing the story. The tech was/is secret
    Who in Scotland saw this diamond shaped object on the same day? Dave Clarke has a long term stake in UFOs as I am sure you know (Fortean Times author that you are). At the moment a story is being spun from one photo. I don’t regard the possibility that the photo is not actually an object hovering in the sky to have been disproven yet. There is something off about it. And as I keep saying, be skeptic all about the other five photos and negatives.
    A guy who finds a UFO photo after searching for years is likely to be interested in UFOs. That's just the territory we are in

    I get your skepticism but I think it is overdone here. All the debunking attempts have failed, they don't explain everything, they are all flawed in several ways. Rock in a loch. Cloud inversion. Daft

    Which leaves us with an enormously strange and prolonged hoax, a US stealth craft, or something even wackier

    All are weird. For me the most parsimonious explanation is a US craft
    Has anyone debunked an object thrown in the air and photographed at the same time as jets are in the sky?

    For comparitor see Gordon Faulkner’s Warminster UFO photo. No jets in this one, but almost certainly an object thrown into the air and photographed, with the best one chosen to be released. When I see five other photos, I’ll be more interested.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 25,298
    edited August 2022
    darkage said:

    pigeon said:

    geoffw said:

    carnforth said:

    From The Times today:


    Looks awesome. Down in Devon with our classic mini, and a fair number of land based ones around. I like them. They don’t disrupt farming below them, are graceful and are helping to reach net zero. No idea why anyone would be against, potentially national parks excepted.
    Birds

    I’d argue largely exaggerated.
    There are always made up excuses for Nimbyism. The sole objection to onshore wind turbines virtually everywhere outside very sensitive landscapes (AONBs, nature reserves, etc.) is "I'm frightened it'll reduce the value of my house" and those advancing alternative suggestions - typically elderly homeowners who, when they aren't being Nimbies, are whining that they need their pensions boosting by another three billion percent because of the cost of electricity - are lying because they don't want to admit to caring about nobody and nothing but their hoard of personal wealth. It's precisely the same for virtually every objection ever raised to the construction of new build homes. Fuck em.
    It is often resistance to change, but there are always legitimate landscape issues regarding the siting of wind turbines - as indeed there are with housing development. The strategic problem is that the government doesn't want to take any leadership on the issue, by directing what is going where. It is in my view a mistake to start thinking this is just NIMBYism.
    Quite often there's a fear that something will obviously be unpopular, which is much greater than the reality.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 30,637
    DougSeal said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    The Calvine UFO photo


    An interview with a Scottish photographer who saw all six images

    https://twitter.com/the_jandashow/status/1561374479464517642?s=20&t=0ckT2y-NECV25SaJGx8wyA


    He is really quite convincing that this is a secret US stealth craft, floating in the sky. It explains almost everything

    So all the debunkers saying "rock in a loch", "reflection", "hanging ornament", "mountaintop" are wrong, and badly wrong. Equally the UFOlogists convinced it is aliens are also wrong. Or so it seems

    But WTF is that US tech?!



    An interview with a photographer who claims to have seen all six photos. Very important distinction. You are so gullible at times.
    DUH

    Do some research. Watch that interview. The only non alien explanation that makes any sense is secret US tech

    All the debunking theories have been debunked ("rock in a loch" etc). The idea it is some hugely elaborate 30 year long conspiracy is more far fetched than a US stealth craft

    There is an ex-US base Machrihanish on the west coast of Scotland which fits this thesis exactly. The US is known to test new craft/tech on allies like the UK, to see how they perform in "action" - before using them against actual enemies. The planes are Tornadoes not Harriers, which explains the lack of Harriers in the records

    This explains all the behaviour of the MoD, the letter to the US defence dept, and so on
    Why did no one in Scotland see this? Where are the other five alleged photos
    . Where are the negatives?

    Fuck it, you may be right, but if they had that kind of tech back then, where is it now?

    I am always sceptical when I hear - there are better videos or photos. They NEVER turn up. Until I see otherwise I don’t believe the other five photos are real. When I see them, I’ll think again.
    Other people have seen it - in Scotland


    That interview with the photographer is insanely long and detailed - I'm giving you a precis - but it is by far the most comprehensive, convincing explanation I have heard.

    Incidentally "US tech" is the conclusion reached by the guy who spent years tracking down this photo - David Clark. And he was a definite skeptic before he found the image: calling it a hoax. Now he says "US tech"

    Until a better explanation comes along - and I doubt that it will - that's my assumption

    The US tech hypothesis also explains why the photos disappeared. A D Notice went out, suppressing the story. The tech was/is secret
    The USA is a vast country covered in literally millions of acres of wilderness. The whole of the U.K. is about as big as a small to medium sized state like Oregon. Scotland is about the same size as, I dunno…West Virginia at a guess. There are huge spaces, airbases and testing facilities galore in the lower 48 alone, before you even start on the great frozen north of Alaska.

    So what’s the logical thing to do with this ultra secret tech? Yeah, they’ll come and test it in Scotland. Perhaps the pilots wanted to couple it with a golf weekend? Perhaps they wanted to show off to a couple of passing transatlantic airliners? Maybe this was taken in August and the test commander wanted to try out his new routine in a mid afternoon slot at the Tron? Maybe they are Scotch aficionados? Hibs fans? Or maybe this is just bollocks?

    Do you actually read comments before opining?

    I explain this below:


    "There are experts in that video who say this is standard military procedure

    They have to test these craft in the field, and see how they fare against peer or near peer countries (after testing them at home first). But you don't do that by buzzing China or Russia, giving away your secrets, and starting a war, you do it by buzzing a close ally - they say Canada or the UK are the ideal - who have good military tech of their own and who will respond in a way somewhat like an enemy"
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 11,743
    Dynamo said:

    Leon said:

    I’m not sure people have grasped the damage done by the lockdowns yet. And perhaps they never will as everyone is now caught up in the whirl of the Ukrainian war and cost-of-living-crisis

    I will note this tho: a year back I barely knew anyone who was really skeptical about lockdowns. My mad but wise brother was one. A couple of journalist friends. A few on here

    Now I hear it everywhere. “The lockdowns were stupid and wrong”

    People are definitely more open to the idea we made a terrible error

    I'm not sure that most who are sceptical think lockdown was an "error". I certainly don't. Should never have happened, yes.

    Its main effect wasn't prolonging the lives of a few elderly and chronically ill people for a year or so, or even stopping "the NHS" from being "overwhelmed" (aka "Tory heaven"). Its main effect was behavioural and on the large majority of the population. Those who keep their eyes open can hardly fail to notice there is very little scepticism now in 2022 about the idea that Britain should support the Ukraine in the war. We can't know, but perhaps in 2019 there would have been more scepticism. Does your mad wise bro have a view on Britain's involvement in the war?
    Duly noted. Putin troll vehement opponent of Scottish self-determination.
  • ohnotnowohnotnow Posts: 896



    My beautiful girl Stella, just short of 16 years old, just went to sleep for the last time.
    There is a hole in the universe.

    That's terribly, terribly sad news. I hope you manage to fill the gap in time. Best wishes from a stranger.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 10,792
    Leon said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    The Calvine UFO photo


    An interview with a Scottish photographer who saw all six images

    https://twitter.com/the_jandashow/status/1561374479464517642?s=20&t=0ckT2y-NECV25SaJGx8wyA


    He is really quite convincing that this is a secret US stealth craft, floating in the sky. It explains almost everything

    So all the debunkers saying "rock in a loch", "reflection", "hanging ornament", "mountaintop" are wrong, and badly wrong. Equally the UFOlogists convinced it is aliens are also wrong. Or so it seems

    But WTF is that US tech?!



    An interview with a photographer who claims to have seen all six photos. Very important distinction. You are so gullible at times.
    DUH

    Do some research. Watch that interview. The only non alien explanation that makes any sense is secret US tech

    All the debunking theories have been debunked ("rock in a loch" etc). The idea it is some hugely elaborate 30 year long conspiracy is more far fetched than a US stealth craft

    There is an ex-US base Machrihanish on the west coast of Scotland which fits this thesis exactly. The US is known to test new craft/tech on allies like the UK, to see how they perform in "action" - before using them against actual enemies. The planes are Tornadoes not Harriers, which explains the lack of Harriers in the records

    This explains all the behaviour of the MoD, the letter to the US defence dept, and so on
    This is fucking nonsense.

    The US have an 11,000 sq. Km test range in Nevada so why are they going to test classified aircraft on the west coast of Scotland close to the major transatlantic commercial routes?
    There are experts in that video who say this is standard military procedure

    They have to test these craft in the field, and see how they fare against peer or near peer countries (after testing them at home first). But you don't do that by buzzing China or Russia, giving away your secrets, and starting a war, you do it by buzzing a close ally - they say Canada or the UK are the ideal - who have good military tech of their own and who will respond in a way somewhat like an enemy

    If you have a spare two hours (!!) I recommend watching the whole video. They are diligent to the point of exhaustiveness, and they come close to proving their case, to my mind
    The US have a squadron of Flankers and one of every Russian SAM system ever made at NTTR. Flying a top secret/classified aircraft across the Atlantic for an inferior threat simulation make zero sense.
    DougSeal said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    The Calvine UFO photo


    An interview with a Scottish photographer who saw all six images

    https://twitter.com/the_jandashow/status/1561374479464517642?s=20&t=0ckT2y-NECV25SaJGx8wyA


    He is really quite convincing that this is a secret US stealth craft, floating in the sky. It explains almost everything

    So all the debunkers saying "rock in a loch", "reflection", "hanging ornament", "mountaintop" are wrong, and badly wrong. Equally the UFOlogists convinced it is aliens are also wrong. Or so it seems

    But WTF is that US tech?!



    An interview with a photographer who claims to have seen all six photos. Very important distinction. You are so gullible at times.
    DUH

    Do some research. Watch that interview. The only non alien explanation that makes any sense is secret US tech

    All the debunking theories have been debunked ("rock in a loch" etc). The idea it is some hugely elaborate 30 year long conspiracy is more far fetched than a US stealth craft

    There is an ex-US base Machrihanish on the west coast of Scotland which fits this thesis exactly. The US is known to test new craft/tech on allies like the UK, to see how they perform in "action" - before using them against actual enemies. The planes are Tornadoes not Harriers, which explains the lack of Harriers in the records

    This explains all the behaviour of the MoD, the letter to the US defence dept, and so on
    Why did no one in Scotland see this? Where are the other five alleged photos
    . Where are the negatives?

    Fuck it, you may be right, but if they had that kind of tech back then, where is it now?

    I am always sceptical when I hear - there are better videos or photos. They NEVER turn up. Until I see otherwise I don’t believe the other five photos are real. When I see them, I’ll think again.
    Other people have seen it - in Scotland


    That interview with the photographer is insanely long and detailed - I'm giving you a precis - but it is by far the most comprehensive, convincing explanation I have heard.

    Incidentally "US tech" is the conclusion reached by the guy who spent years tracking down this photo - David Clark. And he was a definite skeptic before he found the image: calling it a hoax. Now he says "US tech"

    Until a better explanation comes along - and I doubt that it will - that's my assumption

    The US tech hypothesis also explains why the photos disappeared. A D Notice went out, suppressing the story. The tech was/is secret
    The USA is a vast country covered in literally millions of acres of wilderness. The whole of the U.K. is about as big as a small to medium sized state like Oregon. Scotland is about the same size as, I dunno…West Virginia at a guess. There are huge spaces, airbases and testing facilities galore in the lower 48 alone, before you even start on the great frozen north of Alaska.

    So what’s the logical thing to do with this ultra secret tech? Yeah, they’ll come and test it in Scotland. Perhaps the pilots wanted to couple it with a golf weekend? Perhaps they wanted to show off to a couple of passing transatlantic airliners? Maybe this was taken in August and the test commander wanted to try out his new routine in a mid afternoon slot at the Tron? Maybe they are Scotch aficionados? Hibs fans? Or maybe this is just bollocks?

    In the unlikely event they wanted UK assistance with such testing they would make us come the US to do it.

    But really they don't give a fuck what we think and TS programs are usually NOFORN anyway which would make testing impossible as they can't share meaningful data with non-US citizens.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 8,604
    Leon said:

    DougSeal said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    The Calvine UFO photo


    An interview with a Scottish photographer who saw all six images

    https://twitter.com/the_jandashow/status/1561374479464517642?s=20&t=0ckT2y-NECV25SaJGx8wyA


    He is really quite convincing that this is a secret US stealth craft, floating in the sky. It explains almost everything

    So all the debunkers saying "rock in a loch", "reflection", "hanging ornament", "mountaintop" are wrong, and badly wrong. Equally the UFOlogists convinced it is aliens are also wrong. Or so it seems

    But WTF is that US tech?!



    An interview with a photographer who claims to have seen all six photos. Very important distinction. You are so gullible at times.
    DUH

    Do some research. Watch that interview. The only non alien explanation that makes any sense is secret US tech

    All the debunking theories have been debunked ("rock in a loch" etc). The idea it is some hugely elaborate 30 year long conspiracy is more far fetched than a US stealth craft

    There is an ex-US base Machrihanish on the west coast of Scotland which fits this thesis exactly. The US is known to test new craft/tech on allies like the UK, to see how they perform in "action" - before using them against actual enemies. The planes are Tornadoes not Harriers, which explains the lack of Harriers in the records

    This explains all the behaviour of the MoD, the letter to the US defence dept, and so on
    Why did no one in Scotland see this? Where are the other five alleged photos
    . Where are the negatives?

    Fuck it, you may be right, but if they had that kind of tech back then, where is it now?

    I am always sceptical when I hear - there are better videos or photos. They NEVER turn up. Until I see otherwise I don’t believe the other five photos are real. When I see them, I’ll think again.
    Other people have seen it - in Scotland


    That interview with the photographer is insanely long and detailed - I'm giving you a precis - but it is by far the most comprehensive, convincing explanation I have heard.

    Incidentally "US tech" is the conclusion reached by the guy who spent years tracking down this photo - David Clark. And he was a definite skeptic before he found the image: calling it a hoax. Now he says "US tech"

    Until a better explanation comes along - and I doubt that it will - that's my assumption

    The US tech hypothesis also explains why the photos disappeared. A D Notice went out, suppressing the story. The tech was/is secret
    The USA is a vast country covered in literally millions of acres of wilderness. The whole of the U.K. is about as big as a small to medium sized state like Oregon. Scotland is about the same size as, I dunno…West Virginia at a guess. There are huge spaces, airbases and testing facilities galore in the lower 48 alone, before you even start on the great frozen north of Alaska.

    So what’s the logical thing to do with this ultra secret tech? Yeah, they’ll come and test it in Scotland. Perhaps the pilots wanted to couple it with a golf weekend? Perhaps they wanted to show off to a couple of passing transatlantic airliners? Maybe this was taken in August and the test commander wanted to try out his new routine in a mid afternoon slot at the Tron? Maybe they are Scotch aficionados? Hibs fans? Or maybe this is just bollocks?

    Do you actually read comments before opining?

    I explain this below:


    "There are experts in that video who say this is standard military procedure

    They have to test these craft in the field, and see how they fare against peer or near peer countries (after testing them at home first). But you don't do that by buzzing China or Russia, giving away your secrets, and starting a war,
    you do it by buzzing a close ally - they say
    Canada or the UK are the ideal - who have good military tech of their own and who
    will respond in a way somewhat like an enemy"
    Oh, I missed the bit about the bit where they closed down the LHR to JFK route, together with a huge number of other routes that pass over Scotland, to avoid the several hundred people with window seats and smartphones taking pictures.
  • Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    The Calvine UFO photo


    An interview with a Scottish photographer who saw all six images

    https://twitter.com/the_jandashow/status/1561374479464517642?s=20&t=0ckT2y-NECV25SaJGx8wyA


    He is really quite convincing that this is a secret US stealth craft, floating in the sky. It explains almost everything

    So all the debunkers saying "rock in a loch", "reflection", "hanging ornament", "mountaintop" are wrong, and badly wrong. Equally the UFOlogists convinced it is aliens are also wrong. Or so it seems

    But WTF is that US tech?!



    An interview with a photographer who claims to have seen all six photos. Very important distinction. You are so gullible at times.
    DUH

    Do some research. Watch that interview. The only non alien explanation that makes any sense is secret US tech

    All the debunking theories have been debunked ("rock in a loch" etc). The idea it is some hugely elaborate 30 year long conspiracy is more far fetched than a US stealth craft

    There is an ex-US base Machrihanish on the west coast of Scotland which fits this thesis exactly. The US is known to test new craft/tech on allies like the UK, to see how they perform in "action" - before using them against actual enemies. The planes are Tornadoes not Harriers, which explains the lack of Harriers in the records

    This explains all the behaviour of the MoD, the letter to the US defence dept, and so on
    Why did no one in Scotland see this? Where are the other five alleged photos
    . Where are the negatives?

    Fuck it, you may be right, but if they had that kind of tech back then, where is it now?

    I am always sceptical when I hear - there are better videos or photos. They NEVER turn up. Until I see otherwise I don’t believe the other five photos are real. When I see them, I’ll think again.
    Other people have seen it - in Scotland


    That interview with the photographer is insanely long and detailed - I'm giving you a precis - but it is by far the most comprehensive, convincing explanation I have heard.

    Incidentally "US tech" is the conclusion reached by the guy who spent years tracking down this photo - David Clark. And he was a definite skeptic before he found the image: calling it a hoax. Now he says "US tech"

    Until a better explanation comes along - and I doubt that it will - that's my assumption

    The US tech hypothesis also explains why the photos disappeared. A D Notice went out, suppressing the story. The tech was/is secret
    Who in Scotland saw this diamond shaped object on the same day? Dave Clarke has a long term stake in UFOs as I am sure you know (Fortean Times author that you are). At the moment a story is being spun from one photo. I don’t regard the possibility that the photo is not actually an object hovering in the sky to have been disproven yet. There is something off about it. And as I keep saying, be skeptic all about the other five photos and negatives.
    A guy who finds a UFO photo after searching for years is likely to be interested in UFOs. That's just the territory we are in

    I get your skepticism but I think it is overdone here. All the debunking attempts have failed, they don't explain everything, they are all flawed in several ways. Rock in a loch. Cloud inversion. Daft

    Which leaves us with an enormously strange and prolonged hoax, a US stealth craft, or something even wackier

    All are weird. For me the most parsimonious explanation is a US craft
    I thought you previously claimed it was an alien craft.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    DougSeal said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    The Calvine UFO photo


    An interview with a Scottish photographer who saw all six images

    https://twitter.com/the_jandashow/status/1561374479464517642?s=20&t=0ckT2y-NECV25SaJGx8wyA


    He is really quite convincing that this is a secret US stealth craft, floating in the sky. It explains almost everything

    So all the debunkers saying "rock in a loch", "reflection", "hanging ornament", "mountaintop" are wrong, and badly wrong. Equally the UFOlogists convinced it is aliens are also wrong. Or so it seems

    But WTF is that US tech?!



    An interview with a photographer who claims to have seen all six photos. Very important distinction. You are so gullible at times.
    DUH

    Do some research. Watch that interview. The only non alien explanation that makes any sense is secret US tech

    All the debunking theories have been debunked ("rock in a loch" etc). The idea it is some hugely elaborate 30 year long conspiracy is more far fetched than a US stealth craft

    There is an ex-US base Machrihanish on the west coast of Scotland which fits this thesis exactly. The US is known to test new craft/tech on allies like the UK, to see how they perform in "action" - before using them against actual enemies. The planes are Tornadoes not Harriers, which explains the lack of Harriers in the records

    This explains all the behaviour of the MoD, the letter to the US defence dept, and so on
    Why did no one in Scotland see this? Where are the other five alleged photos
    . Where are the negatives?

    Fuck it, you may be right, but if they had that kind of tech back then, where is it now?

    I am always sceptical when I hear - there are better videos or photos. They NEVER turn up. Until I see otherwise I don’t believe the other five photos are real. When I see them, I’ll think again.
    Other people have seen it - in Scotland


    That interview with the photographer is insanely long and detailed - I'm giving you a precis - but it is by far the most comprehensive, convincing explanation I have heard.

    Incidentally "US tech" is the conclusion reached by the guy who spent years tracking down this photo - David Clark. And he was a definite skeptic before he found the image: calling it a hoax. Now he says "US tech"

    Until a better explanation comes along - and I doubt that it will - that's my assumption

    The US tech hypothesis also explains why the photos disappeared. A D Notice went out, suppressing the story. The tech was/is secret
    The USA is a vast country covered in literally millions of acres of wilderness. The whole of the U.K. is about as big as a small to medium sized state like Oregon. Scotland is about the same size as, I dunno…West Virginia at a guess.
    More like a South Carolina
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 49,002
    DougSeal said:

    Leon said:

    DougSeal said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    The Calvine UFO photo


    An interview with a Scottish photographer who saw all six images

    https://twitter.com/the_jandashow/status/1561374479464517642?s=20&t=0ckT2y-NECV25SaJGx8wyA


    He is really quite convincing that this is a secret US stealth craft, floating in the sky. It explains almost everything

    So all the debunkers saying "rock in a loch", "reflection", "hanging ornament", "mountaintop" are wrong, and badly wrong. Equally the UFOlogists convinced it is aliens are also wrong. Or so it seems

    But WTF is that US tech?!



    An interview with a photographer who claims to have seen all six photos. Very important distinction. You are so gullible at times.
    DUH

    Do some research. Watch that interview. The only non alien explanation that makes any sense is secret US tech

    All the debunking theories have been debunked ("rock in a loch" etc). The idea it is some hugely elaborate 30 year long conspiracy is more far fetched than a US stealth craft

    There is an ex-US base Machrihanish on the west coast of Scotland which fits this thesis exactly. The US is known to test new craft/tech on allies like the UK, to see how they perform in "action" - before using them against actual enemies. The planes are Tornadoes not Harriers, which explains the lack of Harriers in the records

    This explains all the behaviour of the MoD, the letter to the US defence dept, and so on
    Why did no one in Scotland see this? Where are the other five alleged photos
    . Where are the negatives?

    Fuck it, you may be right, but if they had that kind of tech back then, where is it now?

    I am always sceptical when I hear - there are better videos or photos. They NEVER turn up. Until I see otherwise I don’t believe the other five photos are real. When I see them, I’ll think again.
    Other people have seen it - in Scotland


    That interview with the photographer is insanely long and detailed - I'm giving you a precis - but it is by far the most comprehensive, convincing explanation I have heard.

    Incidentally "US tech" is the conclusion reached by the guy who spent years tracking down this photo - David Clark. And he was a definite skeptic before he found the image: calling it a hoax. Now he says "US tech"

    Until a better explanation comes along - and I doubt that it will - that's my assumption

    The US tech hypothesis also explains why the photos disappeared. A D Notice went out, suppressing the story. The tech was/is secret
    The USA is a vast country covered in literally millions of acres of wilderness. The whole of the U.K. is about as big as a small to medium sized state like Oregon. Scotland is about the same size as, I dunno…West Virginia at a guess. There are huge spaces, airbases and testing facilities galore in the lower 48 alone, before you even start on the great frozen north of Alaska.

    So what’s the logical thing to do with this ultra secret tech? Yeah, they’ll come and test it in Scotland. Perhaps the pilots wanted to couple it with a golf weekend? Perhaps they wanted to show off to a couple of passing transatlantic airliners? Maybe this was taken in August and the test commander wanted to try out his new routine in a mid afternoon slot at the Tron? Maybe they are Scotch aficionados? Hibs fans? Or maybe this is just bollocks?

    Do you actually read comments before opining?

    I explain this below:


    "There are experts in that video who say this is standard military procedure

    They have to test these craft in the field, and see how they fare against peer or near peer countries (after testing them at home first). But you don't do that by buzzing China or Russia, giving away your secrets, and starting a war,
    you do it by buzzing a close ally - they say
    Canada or the UK are the ideal - who have good military tech of their own and who
    will respond in a way somewhat like an enemy"
    Oh, I missed the bit about the bit where they closed down the LHR to JFK route, together with a huge number of other routes that pass over Scotland, to avoid the several hundred people with window seats and smartphones taking pictures.
    They did: do you not remember in 2010 when the authorities made up that story about the volcano "erupting" in Iceland.

    And the media swallowed it hook, line and sinker.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 30,637
    Dura_Ace said:

    Leon said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    The Calvine UFO photo


    An interview with a Scottish photographer who saw all six images

    https://twitter.com/the_jandashow/status/1561374479464517642?s=20&t=0ckT2y-NECV25SaJGx8wyA


    He is really quite convincing that this is a secret US stealth craft, floating in the sky. It explains almost everything

    So all the debunkers saying "rock in a loch", "reflection", "hanging ornament", "mountaintop" are wrong, and badly wrong. Equally the UFOlogists convinced it is aliens are also wrong. Or so it seems

    But WTF is that US tech?!



    An interview with a photographer who claims to have seen all six photos. Very important distinction. You are so gullible at times.
    DUH

    Do some research. Watch that interview. The only non alien explanation that makes any sense is secret US tech

    All the debunking theories have been debunked ("rock in a loch" etc). The idea it is some hugely elaborate 30 year long conspiracy is more far fetched than a US stealth craft

    There is an ex-US base Machrihanish on the west coast of Scotland which fits this thesis exactly. The US is known to test new craft/tech on allies like the UK, to see how they perform in "action" - before using them against actual enemies. The planes are Tornadoes not Harriers, which explains the lack of Harriers in the records

    This explains all the behaviour of the MoD, the letter to the US defence dept, and so on
    This is fucking nonsense.

    The US have an 11,000 sq. Km test range in Nevada so why are they going to test classified aircraft on the west coast of Scotland close to the major transatlantic commercial routes?
    There are experts in that video who say this is standard military procedure

    They have to test these craft in the field, and see how they fare against peer or near peer countries (after testing them at home first). But you don't do that by buzzing China or Russia, giving away your secrets, and starting a war, you do it by buzzing a close ally - they say Canada or the UK are the ideal - who have good military tech of their own and who will respond in a way somewhat like an enemy

    If you have a spare two hours (!!) I recommend watching the whole video. They are diligent to the point of exhaustiveness, and they come close to proving their case, to my mind
    The US have a squadron of Flankers and one of every Russian SAM system ever made at NTTR. Flying a top secret/classified aircraft across the Atlantic for an inferior threat simulation make zero sense.
    DougSeal said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    The Calvine UFO photo


    An interview with a Scottish photographer who saw all six images

    https://twitter.com/the_jandashow/status/1561374479464517642?s=20&t=0ckT2y-NECV25SaJGx8wyA


    He is really quite convincing that this is a secret US stealth craft, floating in the sky. It explains almost everything

    So all the debunkers saying "rock in a loch", "reflection", "hanging ornament", "mountaintop" are wrong, and badly wrong. Equally the UFOlogists convinced it is aliens are also wrong. Or so it seems

    But WTF is that US tech?!



    An interview with a photographer who claims to have seen all six photos. Very important distinction. You are so gullible at times.
    DUH

    Do some research. Watch that interview. The only non alien explanation that makes any sense is secret US tech

    All the debunking theories have been debunked ("rock in a loch" etc). The idea it is some hugely elaborate 30 year long conspiracy is more far fetched than a US stealth craft

    There is an ex-US base Machrihanish on the west coast of Scotland which fits this thesis exactly. The US is known to test new craft/tech on allies like the UK, to see how they perform in "action" - before using them against actual enemies. The planes are Tornadoes not Harriers, which explains the lack of Harriers in the records

    This explains all the behaviour of the MoD, the letter to the US defence dept, and so on
    Why did no one in Scotland see this? Where are the other five alleged photos
    . Where are the negatives?

    Fuck it, you may be right, but if they had that kind of tech back then, where is it now?

    I am always sceptical when I hear - there are better videos or photos. They NEVER turn up. Until I see otherwise I don’t believe the other five photos are real. When I see them, I’ll think again.
    Other people have seen it - in Scotland


    That interview with the photographer is insanely long and detailed - I'm giving you a precis - but it is by far the most comprehensive, convincing explanation I have heard.

    Incidentally "US tech" is the conclusion reached by the guy who spent years tracking down this photo - David Clark. And he was a definite skeptic before he found the image: calling it a hoax. Now he says "US tech"

    Until a better explanation comes along - and I doubt that it will - that's my assumption

    The US tech hypothesis also explains why the photos disappeared. A D Notice went out, suppressing the story. The tech was/is secret
    The USA is a vast country covered in literally millions of acres of wilderness. The whole of the U.K. is about as big as a small to medium sized state like Oregon. Scotland is about the same size as, I dunno…West Virginia at a guess. There are huge spaces, airbases and testing facilities galore in the lower 48 alone, before you even start on the great frozen north of Alaska.

    So what’s the logical thing to do with this ultra secret tech? Yeah, they’ll come and test it in Scotland. Perhaps the pilots wanted to couple it with a golf weekend? Perhaps they wanted to show off to a couple of passing transatlantic airliners? Maybe this was taken in August and the test commander wanted to try out his new routine in a mid afternoon slot at the Tron? Maybe they are Scotch aficionados? Hibs fans? Or maybe this is just bollocks?

    In the unlikely event they wanted UK assistance with such testing they would make us come the US to do it.

    But really they don't give a fuck what we think and TS programs are usually NOFORN anyway which would make testing impossible as they can't share meaningful data with non-US citizens.
    But one of the guys in the video, an American, seems notably well informed about all this, and he is emphatic that is what America does (as do other countries)

    He says they do the same with spies. You send them first to Chicago, see how they do undercover. Then they go to London, for another road test, then to Paris, only then might you send them to Beijing or Moscow

    Makes total sense. Stealth craft are expensive, so are spies. You don't throw them into battle without training them up. If you really want to test kit you need to test it in the field, a simulation at home is not as good. An unwarned close ally is ideal, see how they respond

    There are still holes in this story. Did no one else see it? What the F is this tech? Etc

    But remember the MoD wrote to the US DoD about this case. After a long examination of the photos. See pages 26-28 here, released after a FoI request

    https://documents.theblackvault.com/documents/ufos/UK/defe-24-2048-1-1.pdf

  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    DougSeal said:

    Leon said:

    DougSeal said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    The Calvine UFO photo


    An interview with a Scottish photographer who saw all six images

    https://twitter.com/the_jandashow/status/1561374479464517642?s=20&t=0ckT2y-NECV25SaJGx8wyA


    He is really quite convincing that this is a secret US stealth craft, floating in the sky. It explains almost everything

    So all the debunkers saying "rock in a loch", "reflection", "hanging ornament", "mountaintop" are wrong, and badly wrong. Equally the UFOlogists convinced it is aliens are also wrong. Or so it seems

    But WTF is that US tech?!



    An interview with a photographer who claims to have seen all six photos. Very important distinction. You are so gullible at times.
    DUH

    Do some research. Watch that interview. The only non alien explanation that makes any sense is secret US tech

    All the debunking theories have been debunked ("rock in a loch" etc). The idea it is some hugely elaborate 30 year long conspiracy is more far fetched than a US stealth craft

    There is an ex-US base Machrihanish on the west coast of Scotland which fits this thesis exactly. The US is known to test new craft/tech on allies like the UK, to see how they perform in "action" - before using them against actual enemies. The planes are Tornadoes not Harriers, which explains the lack of Harriers in the records

    This explains all the behaviour of the MoD, the letter to the US defence dept, and so on
    Why did no one in Scotland see this? Where are the other five alleged photos
    . Where are the negatives?

    Fuck it, you may be right, but if they had that kind of tech back then, where is it now?

    I am always sceptical when I hear - there are better videos or photos. They NEVER turn up. Until I see otherwise I don’t believe the other five photos are real. When I see them, I’ll think again.
    Other people have seen it - in Scotland


    That interview with the photographer is insanely long and detailed - I'm giving you a precis - but it is by far the most comprehensive, convincing explanation I have heard.

    Incidentally "US tech" is the conclusion reached by the guy who spent years tracking down this photo - David Clark. And he was a definite skeptic before he found the image: calling it a hoax. Now he says "US tech"

    Until a better explanation comes along - and I doubt that it will - that's my assumption

    The US tech hypothesis also explains why the photos disappeared. A D Notice went out, suppressing the story. The tech was/is secret
    The USA is a vast country covered in literally millions of acres of wilderness. The whole of the U.K. is about as big as a small to medium sized state like Oregon. Scotland is about the same size as, I dunno…West Virginia at a guess. There are huge spaces, airbases and testing facilities galore in the lower 48 alone, before you even start on the great frozen north of Alaska.

    So what’s the logical thing to do with this ultra secret tech? Yeah, they’ll come and test it in Scotland. Perhaps the pilots wanted to couple it with a golf weekend? Perhaps they wanted to show off to a couple of passing transatlantic airliners? Maybe this was taken in August and the test commander wanted to try out his new routine in a mid afternoon slot at the Tron? Maybe they are Scotch aficionados? Hibs fans? Or maybe this is just bollocks?

    Do you actually read comments before opining?

    I explain this below:


    "There are experts in that video who say this is standard military procedure

    They have to test these craft in the field, and see how they fare against peer or near peer countries (after testing them at home first). But you don't do that by buzzing China or Russia, giving away your secrets, and starting a war,
    you do it by buzzing a close ally - they say
    Canada or the UK are the ideal - who have good military tech of their own and who
    will respond in a way somewhat like an enemy"
    Oh, I missed the bit about the bit where they closed down the LHR to JFK route, together with a huge number of other routes that pass over Scotland, to avoid the several hundred people with window seats and smartphones taking pictures.
    1990
  • Sorry is Liz Truss trying to give Labour a 20 point lead?
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    Leon said:

    DougSeal said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    The Calvine UFO photo


    An interview with a Scottish photographer who saw all six images

    https://twitter.com/the_jandashow/status/1561374479464517642?s=20&t=0ckT2y-NECV25SaJGx8wyA


    He is really quite convincing that this is a secret US stealth craft, floating in the sky. It explains almost everything

    So all the debunkers saying "rock in a loch", "reflection", "hanging ornament", "mountaintop" are wrong, and badly wrong. Equally the UFOlogists convinced it is aliens are also wrong. Or so it seems

    But WTF is that US tech?!



    An interview with a photographer who claims to have seen all six photos. Very important distinction. You are so gullible at times.
    DUH

    Do some research. Watch that interview. The only non alien explanation that makes any sense is secret US tech

    All the debunking theories have been debunked ("rock in a loch" etc). The idea it is some hugely elaborate 30 year long conspiracy is more far fetched than a US stealth craft

    There is an ex-US base Machrihanish on the west coast of Scotland which fits this thesis exactly. The US is known to test new craft/tech on allies like the UK, to see how they perform in "action" - before using them against actual enemies. The planes are Tornadoes not Harriers, which explains the lack of Harriers in the records

    This explains all the behaviour of the MoD, the letter to the US defence dept, and so on
    Why did no one in Scotland see this? Where are the other five alleged photos
    . Where are the negatives?

    Fuck it, you may be right, but if they had that kind of tech back then, where is it now?

    I am always sceptical when I hear - there are better videos or photos. They NEVER turn up. Until I see otherwise I don’t believe the other five photos are real. When I see them, I’ll think again.
    Other people have seen it - in Scotland


    That interview with the photographer is insanely long and detailed - I'm giving you a precis - but it is by far the most comprehensive, convincing explanation I have heard.

    Incidentally "US tech" is the conclusion reached by the guy who spent years tracking down this photo - David Clark. And he was a definite skeptic before he found the image: calling it a hoax. Now he says "US tech"

    Until a better explanation comes along - and I doubt that it will - that's my assumption

    The US tech hypothesis also explains why the photos disappeared. A D Notice went out, suppressing the story. The tech was/is secret
    The USA is a vast country covered in literally millions of acres of wilderness. The whole of the U.K. is about as big as a small to medium sized state like Oregon. Scotland is about the same size as, I dunno…West Virginia at a guess. There are huge spaces, airbases and testing facilities galore in the lower 48 alone, before you even start on the great frozen north of Alaska.

    So what’s the logical thing to do with this ultra secret tech? Yeah, they’ll come and test it in Scotland. Perhaps the pilots wanted to couple it with a golf weekend? Perhaps they wanted to show off to a couple of passing transatlantic airliners? Maybe this was taken in August and the test commander wanted to try out his new routine in a mid afternoon slot at the Tron? Maybe they are Scotch aficionados? Hibs fans? Or maybe this is just bollocks?

    Do you actually read comments before opining?

    I explain this below:


    "There are experts in that video who say this is standard military procedure

    They have to test these craft in the field, and see how they fare against peer or near peer countries (after testing them at home first). But you don't do that by buzzing China or Russia, giving away your secrets, and starting a war, you do it by buzzing a close ally - they say Canada or the UK are the ideal - who have good military tech of their own and who will respond in a way somewhat like an enemy"
    But top secret is top secret so why can't you buzz yourself? Say you are developing this thing at say Arnold Air Force Base Tennessee, pop over to say not-in-the-loop Barksdale Louisiana and see what they make of it?
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 3,639
    DougSeal said:

    Whateve

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Look at that difference between Remain and Leave. Remainers probably want us locked down forever. What is wrong with them?

    Is that the dumbest post of the day? It comes so easily to you, and I've been trying so hard all day!
    I was being provocative. It seems to have worked


    But it is an intriguing difference. So many ultra lockdowners on Twitter are also angry Remoaners. Why?
    Because they know better than us what is good for us
    How do you account for the Leaver mentality of Anti-Vaxxers?

    Because that small group - not representative of the wider Leaver group - are controversialists.

  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 3,639



    My beautiful girl Stella, just short of 16 years old, just went to sleep for the last time.
    There is a hole in the universe.

    Sympathies
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 8,604

    DougSeal said:

    Whateve

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Look at that difference between Remain and Leave. Remainers probably want us locked down forever. What is wrong with them?

    Is that the dumbest post of the day? It comes so easily to you, and I've been trying so hard all day!
    I was being provocative. It seems to have worked


    But it is an intriguing difference. So many ultra lockdowners on Twitter are also angry Remoaners. Why?
    Because they know better than us what is good for us
    How do you account for the Leaver mentality of Anti-Vaxxers?

    Because that small group - not representative of the wider Leaver group - are controversialists
    But the “pro-lockdowners” are representative of the wider Remainer group?
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 32,818
    On the Mull of Kintrye on the west coast of Scotland, you can find a rather long runway - in fact, I think it is the longest in Europe. RAF Machrihanish is remote, and the runway faced east-west, and was very convenient for work over the Atlantic. During WW2 it was very busy.

    After the war, it was used by the USAF, who built the current long runway. Later on there were rumours that the US were staging the mythical Aurora spyplane (the alleged U2 successor) out of Campbletown.

    Although as the largish town of Campbletown is three miles away, it wasn't exactly a 'secret' place to fly it from. AS with most such rumours, it was b'shit.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RAF_Machrihanish
    https://www.theregister.com/2000/07/10/top_secret_us_plane_caused/

    (Walking over the tops towards Machrihanish, and a couple of miles away from where the Chinook crashed a couple of decades ago, I came across a large rivetted piece of metal from a crashed plane. No idea which one...)
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 10,792

    Sorry is Liz Truss trying to give Labour a 20 point lead?

    That. Is. A. Dis. Grace.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 3,639
    darkage said:

    Leon said:

    darkage said:

    fpt

    If woke is a direct threat to western civilisation, then we do need it properly defined. The fact that most people don’t know what it is or believe, apparently wrongly, that it is the new “political correctness gone mad” (largely because that’s how it’s reported in the right wing media) shows that those who do see anti-woke as being the defining struggle of the 21st century need to start explaining it a lot better and disassociating it from right wing hobby horses like Hard Brexit, climate change denial, sending refugees to Rwanda and opposition to working from home. If they don’t the war will be lost. You can’t win a battle for civilisation by alienating 50% or more of the population.

    Put another way, if people like Jacob Rees Mogg, Laurence Fox and Nigel Farage are the people making your case, you’re in very bad trouble.

    @SouthamObserver
    The rhetorical game about what woke is and what it isn't is ultimately a empty distraction.
    I would read one of Douglas Murrays last two books (the 'madness of crowds' or 'the war on the west') and try and explain how he is wrong.
    I think Murray is over provocative and dramatic, and lacks solutions, but I find his diagnosis of the problem very convincing.


    If he needs a comparison, I'd ask @SouthamObserver to define Fascism. I guess he will struggle, as political philosophers have always struggled, because doing this is notoriously difficult. There is no single founding text of Fascism, no agreed corpus of rules, beliefs, tenets. And the label "Fascist" has been applied to multiple different things, from Islamofascism to the modern Tory Party

    And yet, even though it is undefined, I am sure @SouthamObserver would want us to fight Fascism. Read across for the studied enigma that is Wokeness. Indeed part of the reason Wokeness is so insidious and menacing is that it comes in multiple guises, from "decolonisation" to Extreme Trans Rights. It is a hydra
    Yes, except with fascism there is this clear historical example, IE the Nazis.

    In the end, there will probably be a unpleasant majoritarian movement that comes in and crushes all this stuff, and it won't be too concerned about trivialities like the definition of 'woke'. People generally think that their country isn't evil, and that they haven't done anything wrong for being white. Trump and Le Pen came very close to winning by appealing to similar sentiments. It is folly to think these problems have gone away.
    That’s exactly the issue. People equate Nazism and Fascism when they were related but not the same. Fascism is more Mussolini/Peron/Franco than Hitler.

    Pointing to Hitler allows defenders of Fascist regimes to pretend that they are not that bad.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 30,637
    IshmaelZ said:

    Leon said:

    DougSeal said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    The Calvine UFO photo


    An interview with a Scottish photographer who saw all six images

    https://twitter.com/the_jandashow/status/1561374479464517642?s=20&t=0ckT2y-NECV25SaJGx8wyA


    He is really quite convincing that this is a secret US stealth craft, floating in the sky. It explains almost everything

    So all the debunkers saying "rock in a loch", "reflection", "hanging ornament", "mountaintop" are wrong, and badly wrong. Equally the UFOlogists convinced it is aliens are also wrong. Or so it seems

    But WTF is that US tech?!



    An interview with a photographer who claims to have seen all six photos. Very important distinction. You are so gullible at times.
    DUH

    Do some research. Watch that interview. The only non alien explanation that makes any sense is secret US tech

    All the debunking theories have been debunked ("rock in a loch" etc). The idea it is some hugely elaborate 30 year long conspiracy is more far fetched than a US stealth craft

    There is an ex-US base Machrihanish on the west coast of Scotland which fits this thesis exactly. The US is known to test new craft/tech on allies like the UK, to see how they perform in "action" - before using them against actual enemies. The planes are Tornadoes not Harriers, which explains the lack of Harriers in the records

    This explains all the behaviour of the MoD, the letter to the US defence dept, and so on
    Why did no one in Scotland see this? Where are the other five alleged photos
    . Where are the negatives?

    Fuck it, you may be right, but if they had that kind of tech back then, where is it now?

    I am always sceptical when I hear - there are better videos or photos. They NEVER turn up. Until I see otherwise I don’t believe the other five photos are real. When I see them, I’ll think again.
    Other people have seen it - in Scotland


    That interview with the photographer is insanely long and detailed - I'm giving you a precis - but it is by far the most comprehensive, convincing explanation I have heard.

    Incidentally "US tech" is the conclusion reached by the guy who spent years tracking down this photo - David Clark. And he was a definite skeptic before he found the image: calling it a hoax. Now he says "US tech"

    Until a better explanation comes along - and I doubt that it will - that's my assumption

    The US tech hypothesis also explains why the photos disappeared. A D Notice went out, suppressing the story. The tech was/is secret
    The USA is a vast country covered in literally millions of acres of wilderness. The whole of the U.K. is about as big as a small to medium sized state like Oregon. Scotland is about the same size as, I dunno…West Virginia at a guess. There are huge spaces, airbases and testing facilities galore in the lower 48 alone, before you even start on the great frozen north of Alaska.

    So what’s the logical thing to do with this ultra secret tech? Yeah, they’ll come and test it in Scotland. Perhaps the pilots wanted to couple it with a golf weekend? Perhaps they wanted to show off to a couple of passing transatlantic airliners? Maybe this was taken in August and the test commander wanted to try out his new routine in a mid afternoon slot at the Tron? Maybe they are Scotch aficionados? Hibs fans? Or maybe this is just bollocks?

    Do you actually read comments before opining?

    I explain this below:


    "There are experts in that video who say this is standard military procedure

    They have to test these craft in the field, and see how they fare against peer or near peer countries (after testing them at home first). But you don't do that by buzzing China or Russia, giving away your secrets, and starting a war, you do it by buzzing a close ally - they say Canada or the UK are the ideal - who have good military tech of their own and who will respond in a way somewhat like an enemy"
    But top secret is top secret so why can't you buzz yourself? Say you are developing this thing at say Arnold Air Force Base Tennessee, pop over to say not-in-the-loop Barksdale Louisiana and see what they make of it?
    That's where you'd start, apparently. At home. Then if it goes well, you try Canada or the UK

    By the way this is all news to me. I had no idea that the USA did this. But that American guy in the vid seems very well informed, and he says they do this, and on reflection it makes sense

    One other observation they make about the Scottish photographer who claims to have seen the original negatives

    He is totally convincing. And he is. He speaks and answers questions for two hours, in great detail, about cameras, lenses, film, the backstory, and the six images he saw, which persuaded him (he's also an amateur plane enthusiast) this is a man made aircraft

    No one can lie that well, for two hours. Also: what's the fucking point? What's in it for him? He's not getting paid. It's a YouTube channel watched by a few thousand people at most.

    Watch it and decide for yourself. It is so detailed it is boring, in parts, but also highly plausible

    The idea this is some incredibly elaborate hoax gets less likely
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 3,639

    PBers, read it and weep . . .

    LA Times, via Seattle Times ($) - Meghan Markle knocks Joe Rogan off the top of Spotify’s podcast chart

    Meghan Markle is not just the Duchess of Sussex. She’s now also the Queen of Podcasts.

    Markle’s new Spotify-exclusive podcast, “Archetypes,” surpassed regular chart-topper “The Joe Rogan Experience” this week on Spotify’s list of most-listened-to podcasts in six regions, including the U.S. and the U.K.

    The show’s inaugural episode premiered Tuesday and featured tennis legend Serena Williams as its first guest. The podcast also topped the charts in Canada, Ireland, New Zealand and Australia.

    “Archetypes” was conceived as an outlet for Markle to explore the stereotypes surrounding women of all ages through “uncensored conversations with women who know all too well how these typecasts shape narratives,” according to a March statement from Spotify.

    In a preview for the podcast, the duchess promised to “dissect, explore and subvert the labels that try to hold women back” through conversations with them.

    In the debut episode, Markle and Williams discussed the double standard women face when they are labeled “ambitious,” urged listeners to consider and “recogniz[e] what people don’t see” and shared their personal experiences as friends, celebrities and moms.

    Williams shared a story about the guilt she felt as a mom during a match at the 2018 French Open, which took place only hours after her daughter Olympia fell out of her high chair and broke her wrist.

    Markle talked about her own experience with fulfilling professional obligations amid emotional turmoil on her 2019 visit to South Africa — months before she and Prince Harry stepped back as senior royals following personal attacks on the couple. . . .

    The first may be curious it’s. Let’s look at audience numbers for show #3 and #4 before reaching a conclusion
  • LeonLeon Posts: 30,637

    On the Mull of Kintrye on the west coast of Scotland, you can find a rather long runway - in fact, I think it is the longest in Europe. RAF Machrihanish is remote, and the runway faced east-west, and was very convenient for work over the Atlantic. During WW2 it was very busy.

    After the war, it was used by the USAF, who built the current long runway. Later on there were rumours that the US were staging the mythical Aurora spyplane (the alleged U2 successor) out of Campbletown.

    Although as the largish town of Campbletown is three miles away, it wasn't exactly a 'secret' place to fly it from. AS with most such rumours, it was b'shit.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RAF_Machrihanish
    https://www.theregister.com/2000/07/10/top_secret_us_plane_caused/

    (Walking over the tops towards Machrihanish, and a couple of miles away from where the Chinook crashed a couple of decades ago, I came across a large rivetted piece of metal from a crashed plane. No idea which one...)

    Apparently the runway at Machrihanish is so long it was on the list for emergency space shuttle landing spots
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 5,578


    I really can't be arsed about whether there are aliens or not. However, given

    (1) there is enough circumstantial evidence to suggest the Germans at the end of World War 2 were working on advanced aircraft designs including flying saucer style prototypes and

    (2) there is almost no record of UFO sightings, phenomena etc reported pre-World War 2

    it doesn't seem a million miles away to think the secret Tech theory might be a possibility


    IshmaelZ said:

    Leon said:

    DougSeal said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    The Calvine UFO photo


    An interview with a Scottish photographer who saw all six images

    https://twitter.com/the_jandashow/status/1561374479464517642?s=20&t=0ckT2y-NECV25SaJGx8wyA


    He is really quite convincing that this is a secret US stealth craft, floating in the sky. It explains almost everything

    So all the debunkers saying "rock in a loch", "reflection", "hanging ornament", "mountaintop" are wrong, and badly wrong. Equally the UFOlogists convinced it is aliens are also wrong. Or so it seems

    But WTF is that US tech?!



    An interview with a photographer who claims to have seen all six photos. Very important distinction. You are so gullible at times.
    DUH

    Do some research. Watch that interview. The only non alien explanation that makes any sense is secret US tech

    All the debunking theories have been debunked ("rock in a loch" etc). The idea it is some hugely elaborate 30 year long conspiracy is more far fetched than a US stealth craft

    There is an ex-US base Machrihanish on the west coast of Scotland which fits this thesis exactly. The US is known to test new craft/tech on allies like the UK, to see how they perform in "action" - before using them against actual enemies. The planes are Tornadoes not Harriers, which explains the lack of Harriers in the records

    This explains all the behaviour of the MoD, the letter to the US defence dept, and so on
    Why did no one in Scotland see this? Where are the other five alleged photos
    . Where are the negatives?

    Fuck it, you may be right, but if they had that kind of tech back then, where is it now?

    I am always sceptical when I hear - there are better videos or photos. They NEVER turn up. Until I see otherwise I don’t believe the other five photos are real. When I see them, I’ll think again.
    Other people have seen it - in Scotland


    That interview with the photographer is insanely long and detailed - I'm giving you a precis - but it is by far the most comprehensive, convincing explanation I have heard.

    Incidentally "US tech" is the conclusion reached by the guy who spent years tracking down this photo - David Clark. And he was a definite skeptic before he found the image: calling it a hoax. Now he says "US tech"

    Until a better explanation comes along - and I doubt that it will - that's my assumption

    The US tech hypothesis also explains why the photos disappeared. A D Notice went out, suppressing the story. The tech was/is secret
    The USA is a vast country covered in literally millions of acres of wilderness. The whole of the U.K. is about as big as a small to medium sized state like Oregon. Scotland is about the same size as, I dunno…West Virginia at a guess. There are huge spaces, airbases and testing facilities galore in the lower 48 alone, before you even start on the great frozen north of Alaska.

    So what’s the logical thing to do with this ultra secret tech? Yeah, they’ll come and test it in Scotland. Perhaps the pilots wanted to couple it with a golf weekend? Perhaps they wanted to show off to a couple of passing transatlantic airliners? Maybe this was taken in August and the test commander wanted to try out his new routine in a mid afternoon slot at the Tron? Maybe they are Scotch aficionados? Hibs fans? Or maybe this is just bollocks?

    Do you actually read comments before opining?

    I explain this below:


    "There are experts in that video who say this is standard military procedure

    They have to test these craft in the field, and see how they fare against peer or near peer countries (after testing them at home first). But you don't do that by buzzing China or Russia, giving away your secrets, and starting a war, you do it by buzzing a close ally - they say Canada or the UK are the ideal - who have good military tech of their own and who will respond in a way somewhat like an enemy"
    But top secret is top secret so why can't you buzz yourself? Say you are developing this thing at say Arnold Air Force Base Tennessee, pop over to say not-in-the-loop Barksdale Louisiana and see what they make of it?
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 42,503
    rcs1000 said:

    PBers, read it and weep . . .

    LA Times, via Seattle Times ($) - Meghan Markle knocks Joe Rogan off the top of Spotify’s podcast chart

    Meghan Markle is not just the Duchess of Sussex. She’s now also the Queen of Podcasts.

    Markle’s new Spotify-exclusive podcast, “Archetypes,” surpassed regular chart-topper “The Joe Rogan Experience” this week on Spotify’s list of most-listened-to podcasts in six regions, including the U.S. and the U.K.

    The show’s inaugural episode premiered Tuesday and featured tennis legend Serena Williams as its first guest. The podcast also topped the charts in Canada, Ireland, New Zealand and Australia.

    “Archetypes” was conceived as an outlet for Markle to explore the stereotypes surrounding women of all ages through “uncensored conversations with women who know all too well how these typecasts shape narratives,” according to a March statement from Spotify.

    In a preview for the podcast, the duchess promised to “dissect, explore and subvert the labels that try to hold women back” through conversations with them.

    In the debut episode, Markle and Williams discussed the double standard women face when they are labeled “ambitious,” urged listeners to consider and “recogniz[e] what people don’t see” and shared their personal experiences as friends, celebrities and moms.

    Williams shared a story about the guilt she felt as a mom during a match at the 2018 French Open, which took place only hours after her daughter Olympia fell out of her high chair and broke her wrist.

    Markle talked about her own experience with fulfilling professional obligations amid emotional turmoil on her 2019 visit to South Africa — months before she and Prince Harry stepped back as senior royals following personal attacks on the couple. . . .

    Let's see where it is in a couple of months, shall we?

    (Although, to give her some credit, I haven't seen a single advertisement for "Archetypes", not even in the Spotify app. So, clearly it's managed some buzz all on its own.)
    Does everyone think that payola and bots don’t exist in the podcast world, or that someone who massively overpaid for below-average content might want to list it high on their own, unaudited, ‘charts’?
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 5,578

    Very sorry to hear this and my deepest sympathies. As others have said, Stella had a very lucky life to have been a companion to one who loved her so much.



    My beautiful girl Stella, just short of 16 years old, just went to sleep for the last time.
    There is a hole in the universe.

  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 42,503
    Leon said:

    On the Mull of Kintrye on the west coast of Scotland, you can find a rather long runway - in fact, I think it is the longest in Europe. RAF Machrihanish is remote, and the runway faced east-west, and was very convenient for work over the Atlantic. During WW2 it was very busy.

    After the war, it was used by the USAF, who built the current long runway. Later on there were rumours that the US were staging the mythical Aurora spyplane (the alleged U2 successor) out of Campbletown.

    Although as the largish town of Campbletown is three miles away, it wasn't exactly a 'secret' place to fly it from. AS with most such rumours, it was b'shit.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RAF_Machrihanish
    https://www.theregister.com/2000/07/10/top_secret_us_plane_caused/

    (Walking over the tops towards Machrihanish, and a couple of miles away from where the Chinook crashed a couple of decades ago, I came across a large rivetted piece of metal from a crashed plane. No idea which one...)

    Apparently the runway at Machrihanish is so long it was on the list for emergency space shuttle landing spots
    It was the longest runway in Scotland, but only 10,000’, same as most major international airports. Heathrow’s runways are more than 12,000’

    http://www.ukairfields.org.uk/runway-lengths.html
  • LeonLeon Posts: 30,637
    edited August 2022
    Here is the Twitter account of the Scottish tog that saw "all 6 negatives", when he was 19 at the Daily Record


    https://twitter.com/iamstulittle/status/1561997819656937472?s=20&t=SAqkQx7n_jJlxgxNsd9cRQ


    What's in it for him? Why would he lie? He's now a video editor in a different field. He was completely convinced by the negs that this was a real aircraft in the sky. He is entirely pragmatic

  • Andy_CookeAndy_Cooke Posts: 4,510



    My beautiful girl Stella, just short of 16 years old, just went to sleep for the last time.
    There is a hole in the universe.

    So sorry to hear it. At least you got nearly 16 years. They creep into our hearts and take a part of them with them when they go.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 3,639
    DougSeal said:

    DougSeal said:

    Whateve

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Look at that difference between Remain and Leave. Remainers probably want us locked down forever. What is wrong with them?

    Is that the dumbest post of the day? It comes so easily to you, and I've been trying so hard all day!
    I was being provocative. It seems to have worked


    But it is an intriguing difference. So many ultra lockdowners on Twitter are also angry Remoaners. Why?
    Because they know better than us what is good for us
    How do you account for the Leaver mentality of Anti-Vaxxers?

    Because that small group - not representative of the wider Leaver group - are controversialists
    But the “pro-lockdowners” are representative of the wider Remainer group?
    I think anti-vaxxers are a special kind of nut job but are also drawn from all over the political spectrum (vegan body-temple types all the way through to libertarians and controversialists). Pro-lockdown is a much more conventional mindset even in an exaggerated form
  • LeonLeon Posts: 30,637
    Sandpit said:

    Leon said:

    On the Mull of Kintrye on the west coast of Scotland, you can find a rather long runway - in fact, I think it is the longest in Europe. RAF Machrihanish is remote, and the runway faced east-west, and was very convenient for work over the Atlantic. During WW2 it was very busy.

    After the war, it was used by the USAF, who built the current long runway. Later on there were rumours that the US were staging the mythical Aurora spyplane (the alleged U2 successor) out of Campbletown.

    Although as the largish town of Campbletown is three miles away, it wasn't exactly a 'secret' place to fly it from. AS with most such rumours, it was b'shit.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RAF_Machrihanish
    https://www.theregister.com/2000/07/10/top_secret_us_plane_caused/

    (Walking over the tops towards Machrihanish, and a couple of miles away from where the Chinook crashed a couple of decades ago, I came across a large rivetted piece of metal from a crashed plane. No idea which one...)

    Apparently the runway at Machrihanish is so long it was on the list for emergency space shuttle landing spots
    It was the longest runway in Scotland, but only 10,000’, same as most major international airports. Heathrow’s runways are more than 12,000’

    http://www.ukairfields.org.uk/runway-lengths.html
    Visit Scotland disagrees. I have no idea. I just use runways I don't measure them

    "Campbeltown is situated 3 miles to the west of the airport and can be easily accessed with a taxi or hire car.

    The airport runway, at 3,049 m, is the longest in Europe and RAF Machrihanish hosted UK military and NATO base operations here until 1997. "

    https://www.visitscotland.com/info/transport/campbeltown-airport-cal-p267901
  • Jim_MillerJim_Miller Posts: 1,059
    rcs1000 said: "In retrospect, we probably should have been quicker to act at the start of the pandemic."

    Birx would absolutely agree with you on that. As I think almost anyone would who understands exponential growth. (I haven't seen a study of the question, but I fear only a minority of adults in the US do understand that fundamental mathematical concept.)

    She says in her book that she began worrying about COVID when she read a short BBC story on an outbreak in China.

    As for the different experiences with "lockdown", the US states (and some cities) varied widely on that, both in their rules, and what people actually did. For example, South Dakota's govenor, Kristi Noem, encouraged the big Sturgis motorcycle rally there, which turned into a super spreader event. (By the way, she is running for president.)

    (One big COVID surprise for me is the way the death rate on US roads went up. I was expecting it to decline, with the decrease in traffic. But it turned out that less traffic made it easier for young men to drive wildly, often high or drunk, and many of them did.)


  • My beautiful girl Stella, just short of 16 years old, just went to sleep for the last time.
    There is a hole in the universe.

    Ach really sorry to read this James. Dogs as companions is one of the great joys of life. And the fact they live lives so much shorter than our own is a great cruelty. Still it must be worth it for, even after losing such treasured companions and the pain that causes, I never for an instant regret that they were there all those years.

  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 32,818
    Leon said:

    Sandpit said:

    Leon said:

    On the Mull of Kintrye on the west coast of Scotland, you can find a rather long runway - in fact, I think it is the longest in Europe. RAF Machrihanish is remote, and the runway faced east-west, and was very convenient for work over the Atlantic. During WW2 it was very busy.

    After the war, it was used by the USAF, who built the current long runway. Later on there were rumours that the US were staging the mythical Aurora spyplane (the alleged U2 successor) out of Campbletown.

    Although as the largish town of Campbletown is three miles away, it wasn't exactly a 'secret' place to fly it from. AS with most such rumours, it was b'shit.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RAF_Machrihanish
    https://www.theregister.com/2000/07/10/top_secret_us_plane_caused/

    (Walking over the tops towards Machrihanish, and a couple of miles away from where the Chinook crashed a couple of decades ago, I came across a large rivetted piece of metal from a crashed plane. No idea which one...)

    Apparently the runway at Machrihanish is so long it was on the list for emergency space shuttle landing spots
    It was the longest runway in Scotland, but only 10,000’, same as most major international airports. Heathrow’s runways are more than 12,000’

    http://www.ukairfields.org.uk/runway-lengths.html
    Visit Scotland disagrees. I have no idea. I just use runways I don't measure them

    "Campbeltown is situated 3 miles to the west of the airport and can be easily accessed with a taxi or hire car.

    The airport runway, at 3,049 m, is the longest in Europe and RAF Machrihanish hosted UK military and NATO base operations here until 1997. "

    https://www.visitscotland.com/info/transport/campbeltown-airport-cal-p267901
    Looking at the Wiki list, it's not even close:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_longest_runways

    My earlier post was wrong on that part...
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 28,836
    edited August 2022
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    The Calvine UFO photo


    An interview with a Scottish photographer who saw all six images

    https://twitter.com/the_jandashow/status/1561374479464517642?s=20&t=0ckT2y-NECV25SaJGx8wyA


    He is really quite convincing that this is a secret US stealth craft, floating in the sky. It explains almost everything

    So all the debunkers saying "rock in a loch", "reflection", "hanging ornament", "mountaintop" are wrong, and badly wrong. Equally the UFOlogists convinced it is aliens are also wrong. Or so it seems

    But WTF is that US tech?!



    An interview with a photographer who claims to have seen all six photos. Very important distinction. You are so gullible at times.
    DUH

    Do some research. Watch that interview. The only non alien explanation that makes any sense is secret US tech

    All the debunking theories have been debunked ("rock in a loch" etc). The idea it is some hugely elaborate 30 year long conspiracy is more far fetched than a US stealth craft

    There is an ex-US base Machrihanish on the west coast of Scotland which fits this thesis exactly. The US is known to test new craft/tech on allies like the UK, to see how they perform in "action" - before using them against actual enemies. The planes are Tornadoes not Harriers, which explains the lack of Harriers in the records

    This explains all the behaviour of the MoD, the letter to the US defence dept, and so on
    That is not a Tornado in the photo you posted [a week or two back, the published shot]. Nose, tail, wings, intake, position of wings, all seem wrong. Had another look just now and that is still my conclusion, a Harrier. This is the first photo I found on google of a Tornado in about the same orientation. Note the huge fin and the flat surface over the intakes and inner wings

    https://us.airfix.com/community/blog-and-news/aerodrome/raf-tornado-formation-tribute

    So there is something odd in that conclusion you mention.

    Edit: the photo I link to is the bog standard Tornado variant, used by all users. There was another RAF (and Saudi) Tornado variant, the F.3. But basaically this just had a longer nose which would look even more different.
  • Welcome back @MrEd good to see you mate
  • LeonLeon Posts: 30,637
    Carnyx said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    The Calvine UFO photo


    An interview with a Scottish photographer who saw all six images

    https://twitter.com/the_jandashow/status/1561374479464517642?s=20&t=0ckT2y-NECV25SaJGx8wyA


    He is really quite convincing that this is a secret US stealth craft, floating in the sky. It explains almost everything

    So all the debunkers saying "rock in a loch", "reflection", "hanging ornament", "mountaintop" are wrong, and badly wrong. Equally the UFOlogists convinced it is aliens are also wrong. Or so it seems

    But WTF is that US tech?!



    An interview with a photographer who claims to have seen all six photos. Very important distinction. You are so gullible at times.
    DUH

    Do some research. Watch that interview. The only non alien explanation that makes any sense is secret US tech

    All the debunking theories have been debunked ("rock in a loch" etc). The idea it is some hugely elaborate 30 year long conspiracy is more far fetched than a US stealth craft

    There is an ex-US base Machrihanish on the west coast of Scotland which fits this thesis exactly. The US is known to test new craft/tech on allies like the UK, to see how they perform in "action" - before using them against actual enemies. The planes are Tornadoes not Harriers, which explains the lack of Harriers in the records

    This explains all the behaviour of the MoD, the letter to the US defence dept, and so on
    That is not a Tornado in the photo you posted [a week or two back, the published shot]. Nose, tail, wings, intake, position of wings, all seem wrong. Had another look just now and that is still my conclusion, a Harrier. This is the first photo I found on google of a Tornado in about the same orientation. Note the huge fin and the flat surface over the intakes and inner wings

    https://us.airfix.com/community/blog-and-news/aerodrome/raf-tornado-formation-tribute

    So there is something odd in that conclusion you mention.

    Edit: the photo I link to is the bog standard Tornado variant, used by all users. There was another RAF (and Saudi) Tornado variant, the F.3. But basaically this just had a longer nose which would look even more different.
    Are you sure? The photographer - a plane buff - goes into some details about this and concludes it was probably a Tornado



    He also makes the point that you would not send a sluggish Harrier to intercept or accompany a fast craft, you’d send a zippier Tornado

    On the other had my VERY amateur eye says Harrier and the MoD thought the same when they analysed the photos. And yet there were no Harriers in the sky that day, according to records

    🤷‍♂️
This discussion has been closed.