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Why being anti-lockdown might not be popular – politicalbetting.com

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Comments

  • pigeon said:

    Prediction: Starmer will face Johnson at GE 2024/5

    Please, somebody, make it stop.
    Unfortunately nobody is going to make it stop as the solutions are overwhelming and beyond our politicians of all parties

    This is the time for a cross party government but tribal politics will get in the way
    When Boris returns shortly, perhaps he could lead a Government of National Unity, Conservatives and Brexit Party. Lord Farage could be his Deputy.
    You are not helping here !!
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 20,506

    HYUFD said:

    pigeon said:

    Prediction: Starmer will face Johnson at GE 2024/5

    Please, somebody, make it stop.
    Unfortunately nobody is going to make it stop as the solutions are overwhelming and beyond our politicians of all parties

    This is the time for a cross party government but tribal politics will get in the way
    Agreed. Lab-LD coalition would be our best bet.
    Not if that means no new fracking as vetoed by the LDs reducing our potential energy supplies and hugely unaffordable subsidies from Starmer which give the rich as much as the poor instead of focusing on the latter.

    Sunak to be fair to him has the best plans on that

    Fracking in UK is such a total red herring. It's what right wingers grasp onto when they have no meaningful answers.


    Yep. I am hoping it should say something that there are a few of us on here who are in no way anti-hydrocarbons but who see fracking in the UK as a dead end. The economics and practicality just don't work. If you want to go that way then look at Underground Coal Gasification. Far more practical in the UK than fracking.
    Richard, there are companies who've already drilled holes, and who are prepared to start fracking again - they have been restricted from doing so by the fact that they cause earth tremors that you can sleep through. OK, there may not be a golden future, but where is the harm on telling companies that want to do it, that they can do it?

    I am sure your idea of coal gasification has great merit, but it cannot be turned on right now and make any sort of difference this winter.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 25,298
    Leon said:

    This is my last, I promise. But Jesus F Christ United. This is brilliantly terrifying


    Spank me Daddy.
    Or else.
  • HYUFD said:

    kjh said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    pigeon said:

    Prediction: Starmer will face Johnson at GE 2024/5

    Please, somebody, make it stop.
    Unfortunately nobody is going to make it stop as the solutions are overwhelming and beyond our politicians of all parties

    This is the time for a cross party government but tribal politics will get in the way
    Agreed. Lab-LD coalition would be our best bet.
    Not if that means no new fracking as vetoed by the LDs reducing our potential energy supplies and hugely unaffordable subsidies from Starmer which give the rich as much as the poor instead of focusing on the latter.

    Sunak to be fair to him has the best plans on that

    Fracking in UK is such a total red herring. It's what right wingers grasp onto when they have no meaningful answers.


    Fracking plus nuclear is vital to reduce our energy bills and help ensure no reliance on Russian gas. Renewables alone are not enough and fossil fuels are too linked to climate change
    Hang on. You can't use fossil fuels being "too linked to climate change" as a reason to SUPPORT fracking. Do you think that the gas produced from fracking is some super special type of methane that defies normal chemical processes?
    He is too stupid to realise it is a hydrocarbon.
    And kjh bang on cue comes on with his daily rudeness and insults to me without adding anything positive to the discussion
    He is right though
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    Leon said:

    This is my last, I promise. But Jesus F Christ United. This is brilliantly terrifying


    Prompt?
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 25,298

    HYUFD said:

    pigeon said:

    Prediction: Starmer will face Johnson at GE 2024/5

    Please, somebody, make it stop.
    Unfortunately nobody is going to make it stop as the solutions are overwhelming and beyond our politicians of all parties

    This is the time for a cross party government but tribal politics will get in the way
    Agreed. Lab-LD coalition would be our best bet.
    Not if that means no new fracking as vetoed by the LDs reducing our potential energy supplies and hugely unaffordable subsidies from Starmer which give the rich as much as the poor instead of focusing on the latter.

    Sunak to be fair to him has the best plans on that

    Fracking in UK is such a total red herring. It's what right wingers grasp onto when they have no meaningful answers.


    Yep. I am hoping it should say something that there are a few of us on here who are in no way anti-hydrocarbons but who see fracking in the UK as a dead end. The economics and practicality just don't work. If you want to go that way then look at Underground Coal Gasification. Far more practical in the UK than fracking.
    Richard, there are companies who've already drilled holes, and who are prepared to start fracking again - they have been restricted from doing so by the fact that they cause earth tremors that you can sleep through. OK, there may not be a golden future, but where is the harm on telling companies that want to do it, that they can do it?

    I am sure your idea of coal gasification has great merit, but it cannot be turned on right now and make any sort of difference this winter.
    Could fracking make a difference this winter?
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    Andy_JS said:

    Everything's just shyte isn't it?!

    See you all tomorrow goodnight 💙

    There's never been a better time to live in the history of the human race. But we can't let that stop us being grumpy.
    That was the 90s.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 30,637
    dixiedean said:

    Leon said:

    This is my last, I promise. But Jesus F Christ United. This is brilliantly terrifying


    Spank me Daddy.
    Or else.
    lol

    The creative potential of this is bloody ENORMOUS. But the skill is in the prompting, not the drawing - the machine does all of the stupid art stuff in 5 seconds

    So a novelist can become an artist. Imagine a scary book, you can now fill it with these horrifying images. Fuckola!
  • HYUFD said:

    FF43 said:

    ping said:

    Right, I’m gonna go out on a limb here and make a prediction;

    We’re going to see real energy demand destruction across Europe, this winter.

    20%, perhaps.

    A mixture of industry and business shutting down, poor people going cold and the wealthy elderly only heating one room etc.

    Futures markets are right now, near their peak and will come down, gradually, as traders realise actual use is meaningfully falling.

    Indeed. The key is to reduce demand without completely destroying our industrial base and economy for what will be a temporary shock. Our feckless leaders appear not to give the slightest thought to the problem.

    Basically three messages:
    1. Things will be tough. Suddenly and unavoidably we are poorer.
    2. The vulnerable will be protected.
    3. Reduce your energy consumption to minimise your direct costs and help bring prices down
    The government should be relentlessly focused on these three things.
    3 easier said than done when the temperature drops below zero in winter
    You should have lived in Berwick in the 1950s when we had no heating other than a coal fire, the windows froze inside, and we got dressed under the bed clothes but we survived
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 107,357
    edited August 2022

    HYUFD said:

    kjh said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    pigeon said:

    Prediction: Starmer will face Johnson at GE 2024/5

    Please, somebody, make it stop.
    Unfortunately nobody is going to make it stop as the solutions are overwhelming and beyond our politicians of all parties

    This is the time for a cross party government but tribal politics will get in the way
    Agreed. Lab-LD coalition would be our best bet.
    Not if that means no new fracking as vetoed by the LDs reducing our potential energy supplies and hugely unaffordable subsidies from Starmer which give the rich as much as the poor instead of focusing on the latter.

    Sunak to be fair to him has the best plans on that

    Fracking in UK is such a total red herring. It's what right wingers grasp onto when they have no meaningful answers.


    Fracking plus nuclear is vital to reduce our energy bills and help ensure no reliance on Russian gas. Renewables alone are not enough and fossil fuels are too linked to climate change
    Hang on. You can't use fossil fuels being "too linked to climate change" as a reason to SUPPORT fracking. Do you think that the gas produced from fracking is some super special type of methane that defies normal chemical processes?
    He is too stupid to realise it is a hydrocarbon.
    And kjh bang on cue comes on with his daily rudeness and insults to me without adding anything positive to the discussion
    He is right though
    You can be almost as pompous a windbag as him sometimes too. However you also can have decent and well meaning posts without his non stop acid rudeness towards me, day in, day out so you are still not in kjh's category which is sadly at the moment all his own
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 20,506

    Leon said:

    Incredible early photo of Tony Blair at Oxford


    That must be just after he arrived from Innsmouth
    I think they've used a photograph of Abraham Lincoln for that.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 55,103
    nico679 said:

    dixiedean said:

    Your reminder Parliament will rise on 22 September till October 17.
    Any questions left hanging will have to wait a month.

    The conferences should be cancelled and Parliament continues
    Agreed . It all looks very self-indulgent and to swan off for nearly 3 weeks after just coming back looks terrible given what’s happening re the cost of living and all the other problems which need addressing .
    Not really.

    The 'addressing' will be done by the executive which continues to work through the recess.

    House wont be meeting, but what would they do if they were? Debates? Unless there is actual legislation that needs to be passed in those three weeks that is relevant to the energy crisis there is nothing to be gained by cancelling conferences.

  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 107,357
    edited August 2022

    HYUFD said:

    FF43 said:

    ping said:

    Right, I’m gonna go out on a limb here and make a prediction;

    We’re going to see real energy demand destruction across Europe, this winter.

    20%, perhaps.

    A mixture of industry and business shutting down, poor people going cold and the wealthy elderly only heating one room etc.

    Futures markets are right now, near their peak and will come down, gradually, as traders realise actual use is meaningfully falling.

    Indeed. The key is to reduce demand without completely destroying our industrial base and economy for what will be a temporary shock. Our feckless leaders appear not to give the slightest thought to the problem.

    Basically three messages:
    1. Things will be tough. Suddenly and unavoidably we are poorer.
    2. The vulnerable will be protected.
    3. Reduce your energy consumption to minimise your direct costs and help bring prices down
    The government should be relentlessly focused on these three things.
    3 easier said than done when the temperature drops below zero in winter
    You should have lived in Berwick in the 1950s when we had no heating other than a coal fire, the windows froze inside, and we got dressed under the bed clothes but we survived
    You won't be able to have a coal fire now either because of climate change
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 20,506
    dixiedean said:

    HYUFD said:

    pigeon said:

    Prediction: Starmer will face Johnson at GE 2024/5

    Please, somebody, make it stop.
    Unfortunately nobody is going to make it stop as the solutions are overwhelming and beyond our politicians of all parties

    This is the time for a cross party government but tribal politics will get in the way
    Agreed. Lab-LD coalition would be our best bet.
    Not if that means no new fracking as vetoed by the LDs reducing our potential energy supplies and hugely unaffordable subsidies from Starmer which give the rich as much as the poor instead of focusing on the latter.

    Sunak to be fair to him has the best plans on that

    Fracking in UK is such a total red herring. It's what right wingers grasp onto when they have no meaningful answers.


    Yep. I am hoping it should say something that there are a few of us on here who are in no way anti-hydrocarbons but who see fracking in the UK as a dead end. The economics and practicality just don't work. If you want to go that way then look at Underground Coal Gasification. Far more practical in the UK than fracking.
    Richard, there are companies who've already drilled holes, and who are prepared to start fracking again - they have been restricted from doing so by the fact that they cause earth tremors that you can sleep through. OK, there may not be a golden future, but where is the harm on telling companies that want to do it, that they can do it?

    I am sure your idea of coal gasification has great merit, but it cannot be turned on right now and make any sort of difference this winter.
    Could fracking make a difference this winter?
    Richard could tell us, but I've heard January as an estimate. There's an awful lot of cold winter left at that point.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 9,214
    Anyone noticed yet Labours lead has basically halved in the latest YouGov polling?
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 5,759
    HYUFD said:

    DM_Andy said:

    When's the earliest we could have an election if Liz Truss announces one on 5th September? The Conservative Party need to lose that and then wash their hands of the problem as fast as possible, Return in 2024/25 after a mass revolt forces the new government to resign and resume being the natural party of government for at least the next generation.

    Truss has made clear she will not call a general election until 2024 in her hustings. She does not want to be the shortest serving PM in history
    If Sunak won, wouldn't he be the shortest serving PM in history?
    Though maybe Thatcher or May were shorter.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 25,298
    The F

    HYUFD said:

    FF43 said:

    ping said:

    Right, I’m gonna go out on a limb here and make a prediction;

    We’re going to see real energy demand destruction across Europe, this winter.

    20%, perhaps.

    A mixture of industry and business shutting down, poor people going cold and the wealthy elderly only heating one room etc.

    Futures markets are right now, near their peak and will come down, gradually, as traders realise actual use is meaningfully falling.

    Indeed. The key is to reduce demand without completely destroying our industrial base and economy for what will be a temporary shock. Our feckless leaders appear not to give the slightest thought to the problem.

    Basically three messages:
    1. Things will be tough. Suddenly and unavoidably we are poorer.
    2. The vulnerable will be protected.
    3. Reduce your energy consumption to minimise your direct costs and help bring prices down
    The government should be relentlessly focused on these three things.
    3 easier said than done when the temperature drops below zero in winter
    You should have lived in Berwick in the 1950s when we had no heating other than a coal fire, the windows froze inside, and we got dressed under the bed clothes but we survived
    This is true.
    But folk went to pubs cos they were warm then.
    They won't use businesses if they don't exist.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,110
    Andy_JS said:

    Everything's just shyte isn't it?!

    See you all tomorrow goodnight 💙

    There's never been a better time to live in the history of the human race. But we can't let that stop us being grumpy.
    Na, it was demonstrably better a couple of years ago.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    Oh, this is almost as good as the "literature review" debacle.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 3,639

    Just catching up with reports of Laura Kuenssberg's Times interview. Lavishing praise on BigDog. "A Prime Minister of huge consequence". Boris Johnson "tipped the balance" towards Brexit and if he hadn't won the 2019 Leadership context "Brexit might not have happened". Truss is a "great survivor" who has been "underestimated". I love the impartial BBC!

    TBF Johnson is a PM of “great consequence”. For good or ill still TBD.

    And “survivor” is probably a statement of fact… underestimated more opinion although again not a value judgement

    I don’t see the partiality
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 19,093
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    FF43 said:

    ping said:

    Right, I’m gonna go out on a limb here and make a prediction;

    We’re going to see real energy demand destruction across Europe, this winter.

    20%, perhaps.

    A mixture of industry and business shutting down, poor people going cold and the wealthy elderly only heating one room etc.

    Futures markets are right now, near their peak and will come down, gradually, as traders realise actual use is meaningfully falling.

    Indeed. The key is to reduce demand without completely destroying our industrial base and economy for what will be a temporary shock. Our feckless leaders appear not to give the slightest thought to the problem.

    Basically three messages:
    1. Things will be tough. Suddenly and unavoidably we are poorer.
    2. The vulnerable will be protected.
    3. Reduce your energy consumption to minimise your direct costs and help bring prices down
    The government should be relentlessly focused on these three things.
    3 easier said than done when the temperature drops below zero in winter
    You should have lived in Berwick in the 1950s when we had no heating other than a coal fire, the windows froze inside, and we got dressed under the bed clothes but we survived
    You won't be able to have a coal fire now either because of climate change
    The Coalman who lives down the hill from me must be running some sort of money laundering enterprise then?
  • TazTaz Posts: 6,594
    dixiedean said:

    Leon said:

    This is my last, I promise. But Jesus F Christ United. This is brilliantly terrifying


    Spank me Daddy.
    Or else.
    I’m the Daddy now.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 107,357
    edited August 2022

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    FF43 said:

    ping said:

    Right, I’m gonna go out on a limb here and make a prediction;

    We’re going to see real energy demand destruction across Europe, this winter.

    20%, perhaps.

    A mixture of industry and business shutting down, poor people going cold and the wealthy elderly only heating one room etc.

    Futures markets are right now, near their peak and will come down, gradually, as traders realise actual use is meaningfully falling.

    Indeed. The key is to reduce demand without completely destroying our industrial base and economy for what will be a temporary shock. Our feckless leaders appear not to give the slightest thought to the problem.

    Basically three messages:
    1. Things will be tough. Suddenly and unavoidably we are poorer.
    2. The vulnerable will be protected.
    3. Reduce your energy consumption to minimise your direct costs and help bring prices down
    The government should be relentlessly focused on these three things.
    3 easier said than done when the temperature drops below zero in winter
    You should have lived in Berwick in the 1950s when we had no heating other than a coal fire, the windows froze inside, and we got dressed under the bed clothes but we survived
    You won't be able to have a coal fire now either because of climate change
    The Coalman who lives down the hill from me must be running some sort of money laundering enterprise then?
    Already now restricted due to its impact on health and the environment
    https://www.gov.uk/government/news/restrictions-on-sale-of-coal-and-wet-wood-for-home-burning-begin
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670

    That TSE is in favour of the damage caused by lockdowns is no surprise. Whilst the first lockdown is understandable lockdowns post June or July 2020 when it was clear how fatal the disease really was probably represent the worst policy mistake since the failure of diplomacy leading to WW1.

    The Infection Fatality rate was 2% pre vaccine and that's blended between Original flavour and Alpha.

    That's... really quite high.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 9,214
    edited August 2022

    Anyone noticed yet Labours lead has basically halved in the latest YouGov polling?

    Another finding in the same poll, 13% have faith in Truss to bring down inflation.

    The figure sounds too high to me 😆
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    Just catching up with reports of Laura Kuenssberg's Times interview. Lavishing praise on BigDog. "A Prime Minister of huge consequence". Boris Johnson "tipped the balance" towards Brexit and if he hadn't won the 2019 Leadership context "Brexit might not have happened". Truss is a "great survivor" who has been "underestimated". I love the impartial BBC!

    TBF Johnson is a PM of “great consequence”. For good or ill still TBD.

    And “survivor” is probably a statement of fact… underestimated more opinion although again not a value judgement

    I don’t see the partiality
    TBD? Bugger off.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 8,345
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    kjh said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    pigeon said:

    Prediction: Starmer will face Johnson at GE 2024/5

    Please, somebody, make it stop.
    Unfortunately nobody is going to make it stop as the solutions are overwhelming and beyond our politicians of all parties

    This is the time for a cross party government but tribal politics will get in the way
    Agreed. Lab-LD coalition would be our best bet.
    Not if that means no new fracking as vetoed by the LDs reducing our potential energy supplies and hugely unaffordable subsidies from Starmer which give the rich as much as the poor instead of focusing on the latter.

    Sunak to be fair to him has the best plans on that

    Fracking in UK is such a total red herring. It's what right wingers grasp onto when they have no meaningful answers.


    Fracking plus nuclear is vital to reduce our energy bills and help ensure no reliance on Russian gas. Renewables alone are not enough and fossil fuels are too linked to climate change
    Hang on. You can't use fossil fuels being "too linked to climate change" as a reason to SUPPORT fracking. Do you think that the gas produced from fracking is some super special type of methane that defies normal chemical processes?
    He is too stupid to realise it is a hydrocarbon.
    And kjh bang on cue comes on with his daily rudeness and insults to me without adding anything positive to the discussion
    He is right though
    You can be almost as pompous a windbag as him sometimes too. However you also can have decent and well meaning posts without his non stop acid rudeness towards me, day in, day out so you are still not in kjh's category which is sadly at the moment all his own
    Windbag. You really don't get the irony of your posts do you. You bore every one to tears every night with your mad posts and just go on and on and on whether it be religion, grammar schools, etc. Not a sole here agrees with anything you post.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 55,103

    Colin McCarthy
    @US_Stormwatch
    ·
    Aug 27
    Latest model runs are showing the potential for a significant, prolonged heatwave to begin September in California.

    This strong of a heat dome would easily bring California's most severe heatwave of the summer while also rapidly increasing fire danger. Stay tuned.

    https://twitter.com/US_Stormwatch/status/1563628401088352257
  • solarflaresolarflare Posts: 3,190

    nico679 said:

    dixiedean said:

    Your reminder Parliament will rise on 22 September till October 17.
    Any questions left hanging will have to wait a month.

    The conferences should be cancelled and Parliament continues
    Agreed . It all looks very self-indulgent and to swan off for nearly 3 weeks after just coming back looks terrible given what’s happening re the cost of living and all the other problems which need addressing .
    Not really.

    The 'addressing' will be done by the executive which continues to work through the recess.

    House wont be meeting, but what would they do if they were? Debates? Unless there is actual legislation that needs to be passed in those three weeks that is relevant to the energy crisis there is nothing to be gained by cancelling conferences.

    The practicalities matter less there than the optics, I suspect

    Even if Truss gets right down to it on day 1 and gets a load of new support through, the conference period is just going to be another dead zone of bad news getting worse whilst leaders are effectively AWOL. And if what was got through isn't considered far enough, which is emminently possible, that whole period is going to be fairly fractious.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 20,506
    rcs1000 said:

    kyf_100 said:

    dixiedean said:

    70% of pubs don't expect to survive the winter.
    It is gonna change the world and then some.
    I don't think folk have got their heads round all this yet at all.

    This is a rather good read -

    https://duncanweldon.substack.com/p/in-the-bleak-midwinter

    Fundamentally:

    - The market for energy in Europe has failed
    - Continuing with a free market for energy will result in economic ruin - poverty, a collapse in domestic spending, mass bankruptcies for SMEs.
    - The government will *have* to bail everyone out, whether they want to or not.

    And the concluding paragraph:

    "Once the government has accepted that it can’t allocate energy using a price mechanism, then the only option left will be energy rationing. The politics of that are going to be exceptionally difficult."
    As Lilico has been saying repeatedly. If the price signal isn't used for demand then there will have to be rationing.

    It's extraordinary how stupid some people are.

    Gas demand has to fall, to reflect reduced supply.

    We can't simply subsidize ourselves out of trouble.
    I agree with your last.

    However, gas supply could also be increased.

    And gas demand could also fall by gas being substituted in power generation by other methods.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 9,214

    Anyone noticed yet Labours lead has basically halved in the latest YouGov polling?

    Another finding in the same poll, 13% have faith in Truss to bring down inflation.

    The figure sounds too high to me 😆
    Daily Mail not cheerleading tomorrow, on the front at least. Suggests money to fix social care should be a priority.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 25,298
    edited August 2022
    kjh said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    kjh said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    pigeon said:

    Prediction: Starmer will face Johnson at GE 2024/5

    Please, somebody, make it stop.
    Unfortunately nobody is going to make it stop as the solutions are overwhelming and beyond our politicians of all parties

    This is the time for a cross party government but tribal politics will get in the way
    Agreed. Lab-LD coalition would be our best bet.
    Not if that means no new fracking as vetoed by the LDs reducing our potential energy supplies and hugely unaffordable subsidies from Starmer which give the rich as much as the poor instead of focusing on the latter.

    Sunak to be fair to him has the best plans on that

    Fracking in UK is such a total red herring. It's what right wingers grasp onto when they have no meaningful answers.


    Fracking plus nuclear is vital to reduce our energy bills and help ensure no reliance on Russian gas. Renewables alone are not enough and fossil fuels are too linked to climate change
    Hang on. You can't use fossil fuels being "too linked to climate change" as a reason to SUPPORT fracking. Do you think that the gas produced from fracking is some super special type of methane that defies normal chemical processes?
    He is too stupid to realise it is a hydrocarbon.
    And kjh bang on cue comes on with his daily rudeness and insults to me without adding anything positive to the discussion
    He is right though
    You can be almost as pompous a windbag as him sometimes too. However you also can have decent and well meaning posts without his non stop acid rudeness towards me, day in, day out so you are still not in kjh's category which is sadly at the moment all his own
    Windbag. You really don't get the irony of your posts do you. You bore every one to tears every night with your mad posts and just go on and on and on whether it be religion, grammar schools, etc. Not a sole here agrees with anything you post.
    He flounders around this plaice with his pollocks.
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 5,759

    HYUFD said:

    FF43 said:

    ping said:

    Right, I’m gonna go out on a limb here and make a prediction;

    We’re going to see real energy demand destruction across Europe, this winter.

    20%, perhaps.

    A mixture of industry and business shutting down, poor people going cold and the wealthy elderly only heating one room etc.

    Futures markets are right now, near their peak and will come down, gradually, as traders realise actual use is meaningfully falling.

    Indeed. The key is to reduce demand without completely destroying our industrial base and economy for what will be a temporary shock. Our feckless leaders appear not to give the slightest thought to the problem.

    Basically three messages:
    1. Things will be tough. Suddenly and unavoidably we are poorer.
    2. The vulnerable will be protected.
    3. Reduce your energy consumption to minimise your direct costs and help bring prices down
    The government should be relentlessly focused on these three things.
    3 easier said than done when the temperature drops below zero in winter
    You should have lived in Berwick in the 1950s when we had no heating other than a coal fire, the windows froze inside, and we got dressed under the bed clothes but we survived
    Luxury. You survived.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 37,054

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    FF43 said:

    ping said:

    Right, I’m gonna go out on a limb here and make a prediction;

    We’re going to see real energy demand destruction across Europe, this winter.

    20%, perhaps.

    A mixture of industry and business shutting down, poor people going cold and the wealthy elderly only heating one room etc.

    Futures markets are right now, near their peak and will come down, gradually, as traders realise actual use is meaningfully falling.

    Indeed. The key is to reduce demand without completely destroying our industrial base and economy for what will be a temporary shock. Our feckless leaders appear not to give the slightest thought to the problem.

    Basically three messages:
    1. Things will be tough. Suddenly and unavoidably we are poorer.
    2. The vulnerable will be protected.
    3. Reduce your energy consumption to minimise your direct costs and help bring prices down
    The government should be relentlessly focused on these three things.
    3 easier said than done when the temperature drops below zero in winter
    You should have lived in Berwick in the 1950s when we had no heating other than a coal fire, the windows froze inside, and we got dressed under the bed clothes but we survived
    You won't be able to have a coal fire now either because of climate change
    The Coalman who lives down the hill from me must be running some sort of money laundering enterprise then?
    The new regulations were that you couldn't sell coal in bags. So the coal merchants just used a pair of scissors to cut open the bags of coal.

    Plus they now aren't allowed to use British coal so it is imported from Columbia.

    Take that, climate change.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 49,002

    Taz said:

    dixiedean said:

    Germany filling it's gas storage quicker than expected. Now 85% full.
    An advantage of having some I suppose.

    The coalition did a great job on our gas storage.
    Criminal.

    Along with Clegg's 'why build nuclear when it wont deliver until 2022?'.

    To be fair, the new nuclear was approved by the UK government in 2012, and then we waited until 2016 for EDF to press the "go" button.

    And, of course, HPC isn't going to be live until 2028 at the earliest, and probably more like 2031-2032.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 55,103
    edited August 2022
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    FF43 said:

    ping said:

    Right, I’m gonna go out on a limb here and make a prediction;

    We’re going to see real energy demand destruction across Europe, this winter.

    20%, perhaps.

    A mixture of industry and business shutting down, poor people going cold and the wealthy elderly only heating one room etc.

    Futures markets are right now, near their peak and will come down, gradually, as traders realise actual use is meaningfully falling.

    Indeed. The key is to reduce demand without completely destroying our industrial base and economy for what will be a temporary shock. Our feckless leaders appear not to give the slightest thought to the problem.

    Basically three messages:
    1. Things will be tough. Suddenly and unavoidably we are poorer.
    2. The vulnerable will be protected.
    3. Reduce your energy consumption to minimise your direct costs and help bring prices down
    The government should be relentlessly focused on these three things.
    3 easier said than done when the temperature drops below zero in winter
    You should have lived in Berwick in the 1950s when we had no heating other than a coal fire, the windows froze inside, and we got dressed under the bed clothes but we survived
    You won't be able to have a coal fire now either because of climate change
    The Coalman who lives down the hill from me must be running some sort of money laundering enterprise then?
    Already now restricted due to its impact on health and the environment
    https://www.gov.uk/government/news/restrictions-on-sale-of-coal-and-wet-wood-for-home-burning-begin
    Thanks to this (and it is yet another Mikey Gove meddling policy) my log delivery man will be bringing the new legal minimum of 28 sacks of seasoned logs to the house next week. I can store that much, although it is an inconvenience.

    Somehow those who deliver seasoned logs have been caught up with stuff about wet wood which nobody who understand their stove would burn anyway.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 9,214

    Anyone noticed yet Labours lead has basically halved in the latest YouGov polling?

    Another finding in the same poll, 13% have faith in Truss to bring down inflation.

    The figure sounds too high to me 😆
    Daily Mail not cheerleading tomorrow, on the front at least. Suggests money to fix social care should be a priority.


    From the hints, it’s Hamilton in there 🥺 Oh Lewis. It’s looks like nuclear war in Tele tubbyland
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 49,002

    HYUFD said:

    pigeon said:

    Prediction: Starmer will face Johnson at GE 2024/5

    Please, somebody, make it stop.
    Unfortunately nobody is going to make it stop as the solutions are overwhelming and beyond our politicians of all parties

    This is the time for a cross party government but tribal politics will get in the way
    Agreed. Lab-LD coalition would be our best bet.
    Not if that means no new fracking as vetoed by the LDs reducing our potential energy supplies and hugely unaffordable subsidies from Starmer which give the rich as much as the poor instead of focusing on the latter.

    Sunak to be fair to him has the best plans on that

    Fracking in UK is such a total red herring. It's what right wingers grasp onto when they have no meaningful answers.


    Yep. I am hoping it should say something that there are a few of us on here who are in no way anti-hydrocarbons but who see fracking in the UK as a dead end. The economics and practicality just don't work. If you want to go that way then look at Underground Coal Gasification. Far more practical in the UK than fracking.
    I have a small personal investment in that space: they're looking to exploit off shore coal reserves. It's very interesting, and potentially very profitable.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 8,345
    dixiedean said:

    kjh said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    kjh said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    pigeon said:

    Prediction: Starmer will face Johnson at GE 2024/5

    Please, somebody, make it stop.
    Unfortunately nobody is going to make it stop as the solutions are overwhelming and beyond our politicians of all parties

    This is the time for a cross party government but tribal politics will get in the way
    Agreed. Lab-LD coalition would be our best bet.
    Not if that means no new fracking as vetoed by the LDs reducing our potential energy supplies and hugely unaffordable subsidies from Starmer which give the rich as much as the poor instead of focusing on the latter.

    Sunak to be fair to him has the best plans on that

    Fracking in UK is such a total red herring. It's what right wingers grasp onto when they have no meaningful answers.


    Fracking plus nuclear is vital to reduce our energy bills and help ensure no reliance on Russian gas. Renewables alone are not enough and fossil fuels are too linked to climate change
    Hang on. You can't use fossil fuels being "too linked to climate change" as a reason to SUPPORT fracking. Do you think that the gas produced from fracking is some super special type of methane that defies normal chemical processes?
    He is too stupid to realise it is a hydrocarbon.
    And kjh bang on cue comes on with his daily rudeness and insults to me without adding anything positive to the discussion
    He is right though
    You can be almost as pompous a windbag as him sometimes too. However you also can have decent and well meaning posts without his non stop acid rudeness towards me, day in, day out so you are still not in kjh's category which is sadly at the moment all his own
    Windbag. You really don't get the irony of your posts do you. You bore every one to tears every night with your mad posts and just go on and on and on whether it be religion, grammar schools, etc. Not a sole here agrees with anything you post.
    He flounders around this plaice with his pollocks.
    Sadly not the first time I have done that. Impressive triple pun so no eel feelings.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 36,825
    edited August 2022
    Leon said:

    This is like directly accessing the dreamland of the subconscious, via a laptop


    The only thing more boring than your Instagram dinners and conspiracy theories.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 37,054
    kjh said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    kjh said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    pigeon said:

    Prediction: Starmer will face Johnson at GE 2024/5

    Please, somebody, make it stop.
    Unfortunately nobody is going to make it stop as the solutions are overwhelming and beyond our politicians of all parties

    This is the time for a cross party government but tribal politics will get in the way
    Agreed. Lab-LD coalition would be our best bet.
    Not if that means no new fracking as vetoed by the LDs reducing our potential energy supplies and hugely unaffordable subsidies from Starmer which give the rich as much as the poor instead of focusing on the latter.

    Sunak to be fair to him has the best plans on that

    Fracking in UK is such a total red herring. It's what right wingers grasp onto when they have no meaningful answers.


    Fracking plus nuclear is vital to reduce our energy bills and help ensure no reliance on Russian gas. Renewables alone are not enough and fossil fuels are too linked to climate change
    Hang on. You can't use fossil fuels being "too linked to climate change" as a reason to SUPPORT fracking. Do you think that the gas produced from fracking is some super special type of methane that defies normal chemical processes?
    He is too stupid to realise it is a hydrocarbon.
    And kjh bang on cue comes on with his daily rudeness and insults to me without adding anything positive to the discussion
    He is right though
    You can be almost as pompous a windbag as him sometimes too. However you also can have decent and well meaning posts without his non stop acid rudeness towards me, day in, day out so you are still not in kjh's category which is sadly at the moment all his own
    Windbag. You really don't get the irony of your posts do you. You bore every one to tears every night with your mad posts and just go on and on and on whether it be religion, grammar schools, etc. Not a sole here agrees with anything you post.
    There are certain posters on here who I will never respond to or interact with. Either because they are boring or insufferably inane or twats. I suggest you add @HYUFD to your list. (He does not happen to be on mine.)
  • LeonLeon Posts: 30,637
    Robots of the Old Wild West



    OK that really is the last! Sorry!
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 20,506

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    FF43 said:

    ping said:

    Right, I’m gonna go out on a limb here and make a prediction;

    We’re going to see real energy demand destruction across Europe, this winter.

    20%, perhaps.

    A mixture of industry and business shutting down, poor people going cold and the wealthy elderly only heating one room etc.

    Futures markets are right now, near their peak and will come down, gradually, as traders realise actual use is meaningfully falling.

    Indeed. The key is to reduce demand without completely destroying our industrial base and economy for what will be a temporary shock. Our feckless leaders appear not to give the slightest thought to the problem.

    Basically three messages:
    1. Things will be tough. Suddenly and unavoidably we are poorer.
    2. The vulnerable will be protected.
    3. Reduce your energy consumption to minimise your direct costs and help bring prices down
    The government should be relentlessly focused on these three things.
    3 easier said than done when the temperature drops below zero in winter
    You should have lived in Berwick in the 1950s when we had no heating other than a coal fire, the windows froze inside, and we got dressed under the bed clothes but we survived
    You won't be able to have a coal fire now either because of climate change
    The Coalman who lives down the hill from me must be running some sort of money laundering enterprise then?
    Already now restricted due to its impact on health and the environment
    https://www.gov.uk/government/news/restrictions-on-sale-of-coal-and-wet-wood-for-home-burning-begin
    Thanks to this (and it is yet another Mikey Gove meddling policy) my log delivery man will be bringing the new legal minimum of 28 sacks of seasoned logs to the house next week. I can store that much, although it is an inconvenience.

    Somehow those who deliver seasoned logs have been caught up with stuff about wet wood which nobody who understand their stove would burn anyway.
    What a shame he is bowing out from frontline politics.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 37,054
    Leon said:

    Robots of the Old Wild West



    OK that really is the last! Sorry!

    This is supposed to be the end of art as we know it?
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 55,103

    Anyone noticed yet Labours lead has basically halved in the latest YouGov polling?

    Another finding in the same poll, 13% have faith in Truss to bring down inflation.

    The figure sounds too high to me 😆
    Daily Mail not cheerleading tomorrow, on the front at least. Suggests money to fix social care should be a priority.
    Hmmm. How coincidental that Truss announces she wants to divert funds from NHS to social care and within three days the Mail is starting a campaign on social care bed blockers?

    I guess Johnson has sent Dacre his new orders.

    As it happens I totally support this policy as social care is utterly broken and not fit for purpose as my family is finding out at the moment.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 30,637
    Imagine when they do an iteration of these image machines where the images can MOVE
  • Disaster polling for Truss and a big boost for Keir
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 35,880
    Leon said:

    dixiedean said:

    Leon said:

    This is my last, I promise. But Jesus F Christ United. This is brilliantly terrifying


    Spank me Daddy.
    Or else.
    lol

    The creative potential of this is bloody ENORMOUS. But the skill is in the prompting, not the drawing - the machine does all of the stupid art stuff in 5 seconds

    So a novelist can become an artist. Imagine a scary book, you can now fill it with these horrifying images. Fuckola!
    I think quite a few if not all novelists are artists.
    Just so you know, like.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 8,345
    edited August 2022

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    FF43 said:

    ping said:

    Right, I’m gonna go out on a limb here and make a prediction;

    We’re going to see real energy demand destruction across Europe, this winter.

    20%, perhaps.

    A mixture of industry and business shutting down, poor people going cold and the wealthy elderly only heating one room etc.

    Futures markets are right now, near their peak and will come down, gradually, as traders realise actual use is meaningfully falling.

    Indeed. The key is to reduce demand without completely destroying our industrial base and economy for what will be a temporary shock. Our feckless leaders appear not to give the slightest thought to the problem.

    Basically three messages:
    1. Things will be tough. Suddenly and unavoidably we are poorer.
    2. The vulnerable will be protected.
    3. Reduce your energy consumption to minimise your direct costs and help bring prices down
    The government should be relentlessly focused on these three things.
    3 easier said than done when the temperature drops below zero in winter
    You should have lived in Berwick in the 1950s when we had no heating other than a coal fire, the windows froze inside, and we got dressed under the bed clothes but we survived
    You won't be able to have a coal fire now either because of climate change
    The Coalman who lives down the hill from me must be running some sort of money laundering enterprise then?
    Already now restricted due to its impact on health and the environment
    https://www.gov.uk/government/news/restrictions-on-sale-of-coal-and-wet-wood-for-home-burning-begin
    Thanks to this (and it is yet another Mikey Gove meddling policy) my log delivery man will be bringing the new legal minimum of 28 sacks of seasoned logs to the house next week. I can store that much, although it is an inconvenience.

    Somehow those who deliver seasoned logs have been caught up with stuff about wet wood which nobody who understand their stove would burn anyway.
    Yes the law seems bizarre. Nobody would surely buy small quantities of wet wood. You would buy large quantities of wet wood to store or small quantities of dry wood to burn now. What idiot buys a small bag of wet wood they have to keep for a year to burn in just a day or so.

    Fortunately I have enough wet wood from my garden and enough space and I enjoy chopping it and I season it over about 3 years.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 55,103
    rcs1000 said:

    kyf_100 said:

    dixiedean said:

    70% of pubs don't expect to survive the winter.
    It is gonna change the world and then some.
    I don't think folk have got their heads round all this yet at all.

    This is a rather good read -

    https://duncanweldon.substack.com/p/in-the-bleak-midwinter

    Fundamentally:

    - The market for energy in Europe has failed
    - Continuing with a free market for energy will result in economic ruin - poverty, a collapse in domestic spending, mass bankruptcies for SMEs.
    - The government will *have* to bail everyone out, whether they want to or not.

    And the concluding paragraph:

    "Once the government has accepted that it can’t allocate energy using a price mechanism, then the only option left will be energy rationing. The politics of that are going to be exceptionally difficult."
    As Lilico has been saying repeatedly. If the price signal isn't used for demand then there will have to be rationing.

    It's extraordinary how stupid some people are.

    Gas demand has to fall, to reflect reduced supply.

    We can't simply subsidize ourselves out of trouble.
    As the French are finding out.

    It's almost as if kids leave school without even the basics of economic understanding.
  • londonpubmanlondonpubman Posts: 2,081

    Anyone noticed yet Labours lead has basically halved in the latest YouGov polling?

    Another finding in the same poll, 13% have faith in Truss to bring down inflation.

    The figure sounds too high to me 😆
    Daily Mail not cheerleading tomorrow, on the front at least. Suggests money to fix social care should be a priority.


    From the hints, it’s Hamilton in there 🥺 Oh Lewis. It’s looks like nuclear war in Tele tubbyland
    Looks all over for CON. No one likes Keir either. Is it an opportunity for your leader Davey and his team to step into the void and seek first LD government since 1906??
  • LeonLeon Posts: 30,637
    TOPPING said:

    Leon said:

    Robots of the Old Wild West



    OK that really is the last! Sorry!

    This is supposed to be the end of art as we know it?
    Whuh?

    I am clearly focusing on what this machine can do if you prompt it to make old photographs. It is phenomenally good at that. These images are created out of nothing, in a few seconds. Some of them are truly fucking scary. It seems to be good at scariness, which is why I compare it to the human subconscious, which is much better at fabricating nightmares than happy dreams

    I've not even tried to make anything "arty", but there are people now making absolutely exquisite pix with these various neural networks

    It's quite exciting. Novelists will be able to illustrate their own works with some terrific, bespoke imagery. That is, until the machines replace the novelists.

    ~10 years?

  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 107,357
    kjh said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    kjh said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    pigeon said:

    Prediction: Starmer will face Johnson at GE 2024/5

    Please, somebody, make it stop.
    Unfortunately nobody is going to make it stop as the solutions are overwhelming and beyond our politicians of all parties

    This is the time for a cross party government but tribal politics will get in the way
    Agreed. Lab-LD coalition would be our best bet.
    Not if that means no new fracking as vetoed by the LDs reducing our potential energy supplies and hugely unaffordable subsidies from Starmer which give the rich as much as the poor instead of focusing on the latter.

    Sunak to be fair to him has the best plans on that

    Fracking in UK is such a total red herring. It's what right wingers grasp onto when they have no meaningful answers.


    Fracking plus nuclear is vital to reduce our energy bills and help ensure no reliance on Russian gas. Renewables alone are not enough and fossil fuels are too linked to climate change
    Hang on. You can't use fossil fuels being "too linked to climate change" as a reason to SUPPORT fracking. Do you think that the gas produced from fracking is some super special type of methane that defies normal chemical processes?
    He is too stupid to realise it is a hydrocarbon.
    And kjh bang on cue comes on with his daily rudeness and insults to me without adding anything positive to the discussion
    He is right though
    You can be almost as pompous a windbag as him sometimes too. However you also can have decent and well meaning posts without his non stop acid rudeness towards me, day in, day out so you are still not in kjh's category which is sadly at the moment all his own
    Windbag. You really don't get the irony of your posts do you. You bore every one to tears every night with your mad posts and just go on and on and on whether it be religion, grammar schools, etc. Not a sole here agrees with anything you post.
    No some agree with me on grammars, one or 2 like Moonshine even on some of my religious posts. I am not going to be bullied into not posting what I think because of thought police like you. If you don't like what I post as Topping correctly suggests don't interact with me rather than engage in continuous vendetta.

    Personal vendettas on here distract from the issues and are tedious and boring
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 55,103
    kjh said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    FF43 said:

    ping said:

    Right, I’m gonna go out on a limb here and make a prediction;

    We’re going to see real energy demand destruction across Europe, this winter.

    20%, perhaps.

    A mixture of industry and business shutting down, poor people going cold and the wealthy elderly only heating one room etc.

    Futures markets are right now, near their peak and will come down, gradually, as traders realise actual use is meaningfully falling.

    Indeed. The key is to reduce demand without completely destroying our industrial base and economy for what will be a temporary shock. Our feckless leaders appear not to give the slightest thought to the problem.

    Basically three messages:
    1. Things will be tough. Suddenly and unavoidably we are poorer.
    2. The vulnerable will be protected.
    3. Reduce your energy consumption to minimise your direct costs and help bring prices down
    The government should be relentlessly focused on these three things.
    3 easier said than done when the temperature drops below zero in winter
    You should have lived in Berwick in the 1950s when we had no heating other than a coal fire, the windows froze inside, and we got dressed under the bed clothes but we survived
    You won't be able to have a coal fire now either because of climate change
    The Coalman who lives down the hill from me must be running some sort of money laundering enterprise then?
    Already now restricted due to its impact on health and the environment
    https://www.gov.uk/government/news/restrictions-on-sale-of-coal-and-wet-wood-for-home-burning-begin
    Thanks to this (and it is yet another Mikey Gove meddling policy) my log delivery man will be bringing the new legal minimum of 28 sacks of seasoned logs to the house next week. I can store that much, although it is an inconvenience.

    Somehow those who deliver seasoned logs have been caught up with stuff about wet wood which nobody who understand their stove would burn anyway.
    Yes the law seems bizarre. Nobody would surely buy small quantities of wet wood. You would buy large quantities of wet wood to store or small quantities of dry wood to burn now. What idiot buys a small bag of wet wood they have to keep for a year to burn in just a day or so.

    Fortunately I have enough wet wood from my garden and enough space and I enjoy chopping it and I season it over about 3 years.
    Apparently the string bags of logs you see at garages are wet wood and the whole Gove-is-a-genius policy was to stop these sales.

    But who was buying them? No one who understands a wood burner would use wet wood unless there was no alternative.

  • Anyone noticed yet Labours lead has basically halved in the latest YouGov polling?

    Another finding in the same poll, 13% have faith in Truss to bring down inflation.

    The figure sounds too high to me 😆
    Daily Mail not cheerleading tomorrow, on the front at least. Suggests money to fix social care should be a priority.


    From the hints, it’s Hamilton in there 🥺 Oh Lewis. It’s looks like nuclear war in Tele tubbyland
    Looks all over for CON. No one likes Keir either. Is it an opportunity for your leader Davey and his team to step into the void and seek first LD government since 1906??
    MoonRabbit is a Tory. Not a Lib Dem
  • sarissasarissa Posts: 1,452
    geoffw said:

    carnforth said:

    From The Times today:


    Looks awesome. Down in Devon with our classic mini, and a fair number of land based ones around. I like them. They don’t disrupt farming below them, are graceful and are helping to reach net zero. No idea why anyone would be against, potentially national parks excepted.
    Birds

    Cats and windows kill more.
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 5,759
    HYUFD said:

    kjh said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    kjh said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    pigeon said:

    Prediction: Starmer will face Johnson at GE 2024/5

    Please, somebody, make it stop.
    Unfortunately nobody is going to make it stop as the solutions are overwhelming and beyond our politicians of all parties

    This is the time for a cross party government but tribal politics will get in the way
    Agreed. Lab-LD coalition would be our best bet.
    Not if that means no new fracking as vetoed by the LDs reducing our potential energy supplies and hugely unaffordable subsidies from Starmer which give the rich as much as the poor instead of focusing on the latter.

    Sunak to be fair to him has the best plans on that

    Fracking in UK is such a total red herring. It's what right wingers grasp onto when they have no meaningful answers.


    Fracking plus nuclear is vital to reduce our energy bills and help ensure no reliance on Russian gas. Renewables alone are not enough and fossil fuels are too linked to climate change
    Hang on. You can't use fossil fuels being "too linked to climate change" as a reason to SUPPORT fracking. Do you think that the gas produced from fracking is some super special type of methane that defies normal chemical processes?
    He is too stupid to realise it is a hydrocarbon.
    And kjh bang on cue comes on with his daily rudeness and insults to me without adding anything positive to the discussion
    He is right though
    You can be almost as pompous a windbag as him sometimes too. However you also can have decent and well meaning posts without his non stop acid rudeness towards me, day in, day out so you are still not in kjh's category which is sadly at the moment all his own
    Windbag. You really don't get the irony of your posts do you. You bore every one to tears every night with your mad posts and just go on and on and on whether it be religion, grammar schools, etc. Not a sole here agrees with anything you post.
    No some agree with me on grammars, one or 2 like Moonshine even on some of my religious posts. I am not going to be bullied into not posting what I think because of thought police like you. If you don't like what I post as Topping correctly suggests don't interact with me rather than engage in continuous vendetta.

    Personal vendettas on here distract from the issues and are tedious and boring
    As somebody who disagrees with you on most political stuff, I agree with you entirely on your last sentence.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 49,002
    edited August 2022
    dixiedean said:

    HYUFD said:

    pigeon said:

    Prediction: Starmer will face Johnson at GE 2024/5

    Please, somebody, make it stop.
    Unfortunately nobody is going to make it stop as the solutions are overwhelming and beyond our politicians of all parties

    This is the time for a cross party government but tribal politics will get in the way
    Agreed. Lab-LD coalition would be our best bet.
    Not if that means no new fracking as vetoed by the LDs reducing our potential energy supplies and hugely unaffordable subsidies from Starmer which give the rich as much as the poor instead of focusing on the latter.

    Sunak to be fair to him has the best plans on that

    Fracking in UK is such a total red herring. It's what right wingers grasp onto when they have no meaningful answers.


    Yep. I am hoping it should say something that there are a few of us on here who are in no way anti-hydrocarbons but who see fracking in the UK as a dead end. The economics and practicality just don't work. If you want to go that way then look at Underground Coal Gasification. Far more practical in the UK than fracking.
    Richard, there are companies who've already drilled holes, and who are prepared to start fracking again - they have been restricted from doing so by the fact that they cause earth tremors that you can sleep through. OK, there may not be a golden future, but where is the harm on telling companies that want to do it, that they can do it?

    I am sure your idea of coal gasification has great merit, but it cannot be turned on right now and make any sort of difference this winter.
    Could fracking make a difference this winter?
    No.

    Let's put this in context for a second.

    There are probably 30 land rigs in Europe capable of directional drilling. Most of them are pre-contracted.

    Let's assume you can get one. And let's assume that the fracking ban doesn't exist. And that all restrictions on drilling activity are lifted. Drill where you like (so long as you have the mineral rights.)

    Unfortunately, this is where things get difficult. There hasn't been a single well drilled that has encountered commercial levels of gas. Realistically, we would need a programme of half a dozen rigs drilling experimental wells for a couple of year to see if there are any particular parts of the Bowland formation that are more encouraging. But do bear in mind that the 35 or so wells drilled by Cuadrilla and iGas were in the parts that seismic and core samples suggested were most attractive.

    The key stat is this: iGas's shares had lost more than 99% of their value even before the ban on fracking.
  • HYUFD said:

    kjh said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    kjh said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    pigeon said:

    Prediction: Starmer will face Johnson at GE 2024/5

    Please, somebody, make it stop.
    Unfortunately nobody is going to make it stop as the solutions are overwhelming and beyond our politicians of all parties

    This is the time for a cross party government but tribal politics will get in the way
    Agreed. Lab-LD coalition would be our best bet.
    Not if that means no new fracking as vetoed by the LDs reducing our potential energy supplies and hugely unaffordable subsidies from Starmer which give the rich as much as the poor instead of focusing on the latter.

    Sunak to be fair to him has the best plans on that

    Fracking in UK is such a total red herring. It's what right wingers grasp onto when they have no meaningful answers.


    Fracking plus nuclear is vital to reduce our energy bills and help ensure no reliance on Russian gas. Renewables alone are not enough and fossil fuels are too linked to climate change
    Hang on. You can't use fossil fuels being "too linked to climate change" as a reason to SUPPORT fracking. Do you think that the gas produced from fracking is some super special type of methane that defies normal chemical processes?
    He is too stupid to realise it is a hydrocarbon.
    And kjh bang on cue comes on with his daily rudeness and insults to me without adding anything positive to the discussion
    He is right though
    You can be almost as pompous a windbag as him sometimes too. However you also can have decent and well meaning posts without his non stop acid rudeness towards me, day in, day out so you are still not in kjh's category which is sadly at the moment all his own
    Windbag. You really don't get the irony of your posts do you. You bore every one to tears every night with your mad posts and just go on and on and on whether it be religion, grammar schools, etc. Not a sole here agrees with anything you post.
    No some agree with me on grammars, one or 2 like Moonshine even on some of my religious posts. I am not going to be bullied into not posting what I think because of thought police like you. If you don't like what I post as Topping correctly suggests don't interact with me rather than engage in continuous vendetta.

    Personal vendettas on here distract from the issues and are tedious and boring
    As somebody who disagrees with you on most political stuff, I agree with you entirely on your last sentence.
    As do I
  • LeonLeon Posts: 30,637
    TOPPING said:

    Leon said:

    Robots of the Old Wild West



    OK that really is the last! Sorry!

    This is supposed to be the end of art as we know it?

    You'll be glad to hear that I typed in this prompt


    "A fat political geek known as Topping, with a mask, photo, 1910s"


    And I got this uncannily accurate photo of you



    I mean, that actually is pretty close to what you look like, isn't it? These machines are spooky
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 49,002

    rcs1000 said:

    kyf_100 said:

    dixiedean said:

    70% of pubs don't expect to survive the winter.
    It is gonna change the world and then some.
    I don't think folk have got their heads round all this yet at all.

    This is a rather good read -

    https://duncanweldon.substack.com/p/in-the-bleak-midwinter

    Fundamentally:

    - The market for energy in Europe has failed
    - Continuing with a free market for energy will result in economic ruin - poverty, a collapse in domestic spending, mass bankruptcies for SMEs.
    - The government will *have* to bail everyone out, whether they want to or not.

    And the concluding paragraph:

    "Once the government has accepted that it can’t allocate energy using a price mechanism, then the only option left will be energy rationing. The politics of that are going to be exceptionally difficult."
    As Lilico has been saying repeatedly. If the price signal isn't used for demand then there will have to be rationing.

    It's extraordinary how stupid some people are.

    Gas demand has to fall, to reflect reduced supply.

    We can't simply subsidize ourselves out of trouble.
    I agree with your last.

    However, gas supply could also be increased.

    And gas demand could also fall by gas being substituted in power generation by other methods.
    Yes: but do be aware that seaborne coal prices are up almost as much as gas. The Newcastle coal price is well over $400/tonne right now. It wasn't that long ago that you could grab spot cargoes for $30 or $40/tonne.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 30,637
    edited August 2022
    How the fuck does the machine KNOW what @TOPPING actually looks like???

    Genuinely scary
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 20,424
    Does anyone know which candidate Tory MP Neil O'Brien is supporting?
  • Leon said:

    How the fuck does the machine KNOW what @TOPPING actually looks like???

    Genuinely scary

    Why can’t you just fuck off seriously
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 17,643
    Andy_JS said:

    Does anyone know which candidate Tory MP Neil O'Brien is supporting?

    Was Kemi.
    Seems to have gone into a kind of internal exile like his boss Gove.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 30,637

    Leon said:

    How the fuck does the machine KNOW what @TOPPING actually looks like???

    Genuinely scary

    Why can’t you just fuck off seriously
    OK I'm going to tell the machine to do you, now
  • kjhkjh Posts: 8,345
    HYUFD said:

    kjh said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    kjh said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    pigeon said:

    Prediction: Starmer will face Johnson at GE 2024/5

    Please, somebody, make it stop.
    Unfortunately nobody is going to make it stop as the solutions are overwhelming and beyond our politicians of all parties

    This is the time for a cross party government but tribal politics will get in the way
    Agreed. Lab-LD coalition would be our best bet.
    Not if that means no new fracking as vetoed by the LDs reducing our potential energy supplies and hugely unaffordable subsidies from Starmer which give the rich as much as the poor instead of focusing on the latter.

    Sunak to be fair to him has the best plans on that

    Fracking in UK is such a total red herring. It's what right wingers grasp onto when they have no meaningful answers.


    Fracking plus nuclear is vital to reduce our energy bills and help ensure no reliance on Russian gas. Renewables alone are not enough and fossil fuels are too linked to climate change
    Hang on. You can't use fossil fuels being "too linked to climate change" as a reason to SUPPORT fracking. Do you think that the gas produced from fracking is some super special type of methane that defies normal chemical processes?
    He is too stupid to realise it is a hydrocarbon.
    And kjh bang on cue comes on with his daily rudeness and insults to me without adding anything positive to the discussion
    He is right though
    You can be almost as pompous a windbag as him sometimes too. However you also can have decent and well meaning posts without his non stop acid rudeness towards me, day in, day out so you are still not in kjh's category which is sadly at the moment all his own
    Windbag. You really don't get the irony of your posts do you. You bore every one to tears every night with your mad posts and just go on and on and on whether it be religion, grammar schools, etc. Not a sole here agrees with anything you post.
    No some agree with me on grammars, one or 2 like Moonshine even on some of my religious posts. I am not going to be bullied into not posting what I think because of thought police like you. If you don't like what I post as Topping correctly suggests don't interact with me rather than engage in continuous vendetta.

    Personal vendettas on here distract from the issues and are tedious and boring
    I'm rather confused as to why I should stop interacting with you. Why don't you stop responding to me if you don't like the fact that I keep pointing out your errors. You never let stuff drop even when you are proved wrong. You just go on and on and on. How was my post tonight different from others pointing out you had made an idiotic post.

    The proof is in the pudding. I have only made 7k posts. You have made 100k. It isn't me posting endless drivel. Just ignore me.

    PS you are deluded if you think anyone agrees with your mad posts of the last few nights. Show me one.
  • Leon said:

    Leon said:

    How the fuck does the machine KNOW what @TOPPING actually looks like???

    Genuinely scary

    Why can’t you just fuck off seriously
    OK I'm going to tell the machine to do you, now
    I’m going to write a user script that hides your posts. Have a good life
  • Anyone noticed yet Labours lead has basically halved in the latest YouGov polling?

    Another finding in the same poll, 13% have faith in Truss to bring down inflation.

    The figure sounds too high to me 😆
    Daily Mail not cheerleading tomorrow, on the front at least. Suggests money to fix social care should be a priority.


    From the hints, it’s Hamilton in there 🥺 Oh Lewis. It’s looks like nuclear war in Tele tubbyland
    Looks all over for CON. No one likes Keir either. Is it an opportunity for your leader Davey and his team to step into the void and seek first LD government since 1906??
    QTWTAIN
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    kjh said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    FF43 said:

    ping said:

    Right, I’m gonna go out on a limb here and make a prediction;

    We’re going to see real energy demand destruction across Europe, this winter.

    20%, perhaps.

    A mixture of industry and business shutting down, poor people going cold and the wealthy elderly only heating one room etc.

    Futures markets are right now, near their peak and will come down, gradually, as traders realise actual use is meaningfully falling.

    Indeed. The key is to reduce demand without completely destroying our industrial base and economy for what will be a temporary shock. Our feckless leaders appear not to give the slightest thought to the problem.

    Basically three messages:
    1. Things will be tough. Suddenly and unavoidably we are poorer.
    2. The vulnerable will be protected.
    3. Reduce your energy consumption to minimise your direct costs and help bring prices down
    The government should be relentlessly focused on these three things.
    3 easier said than done when the temperature drops below zero in winter
    You should have lived in Berwick in the 1950s when we had no heating other than a coal fire, the windows froze inside, and we got dressed under the bed clothes but we survived
    You won't be able to have a coal fire now either because of climate change
    The Coalman who lives down the hill from me must be running some sort of money laundering enterprise then?
    Already now restricted due to its impact on health and the environment
    https://www.gov.uk/government/news/restrictions-on-sale-of-coal-and-wet-wood-for-home-burning-begin
    Thanks to this (and it is yet another Mikey Gove meddling policy) my log delivery man will be bringing the new legal minimum of 28 sacks of seasoned logs to the house next week. I can store that much, although it is an inconvenience.

    Somehow those who deliver seasoned logs have been caught up with stuff about wet wood which nobody who understand their stove would burn anyway.
    Yes the law seems bizarre. Nobody would surely buy small quantities of wet wood. You would buy large quantities of wet wood to store or small quantities of dry wood to burn now. What idiot buys a small bag of wet wood they have to keep for a year to burn in just a day or so.

    Fortunately I have enough wet wood from my garden and enough space and I enjoy chopping it and I season it over about 3 years.
    Apparently the string bags of logs you see at garages are wet wood and the whole Gove-is-a-genius policy was to stop these sales.

    But who was buying them? No one who understands a wood burner would use wet wood unless there was no alternative.

    Plenty of people who don't understand wood burners obv, and reasonably assumed that what is sold as firewood is suitable for burning in fires. Seems to me a clear rip off and entirely appropriate for state intervention.

    It does mean that the standard unit of a pickup load of logs is now illegal. Technically.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 49,002
    edited August 2022

    dixiedean said:

    HYUFD said:

    pigeon said:

    Prediction: Starmer will face Johnson at GE 2024/5

    Please, somebody, make it stop.
    Unfortunately nobody is going to make it stop as the solutions are overwhelming and beyond our politicians of all parties

    This is the time for a cross party government but tribal politics will get in the way
    Agreed. Lab-LD coalition would be our best bet.
    Not if that means no new fracking as vetoed by the LDs reducing our potential energy supplies and hugely unaffordable subsidies from Starmer which give the rich as much as the poor instead of focusing on the latter.

    Sunak to be fair to him has the best plans on that

    Fracking in UK is such a total red herring. It's what right wingers grasp onto when they have no meaningful answers.


    Yep. I am hoping it should say something that there are a few of us on here who are in no way anti-hydrocarbons but who see fracking in the UK as a dead end. The economics and practicality just don't work. If you want to go that way then look at Underground Coal Gasification. Far more practical in the UK than fracking.
    Richard, there are companies who've already drilled holes, and who are prepared to start fracking again - they have been restricted from doing so by the fact that they cause earth tremors that you can sleep through. OK, there may not be a golden future, but where is the harm on telling companies that want to do it, that they can do it?

    I am sure your idea of coal gasification has great merit, but it cannot be turned on right now and make any sort of difference this winter.
    Could fracking make a difference this winter?
    Richard could tell us, but I've heard January as an estimate. There's an awful lot of cold winter left at that point.
    Who said January?

    I think it's very important to take a step back and to understand on-shore shale gas, as opposed to conventional gas reservoirs.

    If I find a conventional gas reservoir (which will probably be off-shore), I will dig a well (or maybe a couple). And then I hook up the wells to some pipelines, maybe do a little bit of processing to strip any nasty shit in there, and we're done. That field will produce for years, maybe even decades.

    If I have a productive shale play, then I dig a well, I hyraulically fracture it, there's a massive whoosh of gas, and then a dramatic fall off. Here's a EIA chart for a horizontally fracked tight oil well, but it will look very similar for gas (only you'll see an 80% drop in production in maybe four months rather than 24) :



    Great shale plays have hundreds of thousands of prospective drilling sites. But to make them work you need hundreds of horizontal drilling rigs working. The US, at the peak of the shale gas boom, had about 1,700 rigs drilling for gas.

    So even assuming we knew where productive shale gas sites were in the UK (which we don't), to make a difference we would still need to bring on board tens, and then hundreds of drilling rigs, with trained crews. And that is going to take time: not least because you're also competing for those rigs and crews with people in other shale basins where they know there are productive gas assets.;
  • kjhkjh Posts: 8,345

    kjh said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    FF43 said:

    ping said:

    Right, I’m gonna go out on a limb here and make a prediction;

    We’re going to see real energy demand destruction across Europe, this winter.

    20%, perhaps.

    A mixture of industry and business shutting down, poor people going cold and the wealthy elderly only heating one room etc.

    Futures markets are right now, near their peak and will come down, gradually, as traders realise actual use is meaningfully falling.

    Indeed. The key is to reduce demand without completely destroying our industrial base and economy for what will be a temporary shock. Our feckless leaders appear not to give the slightest thought to the problem.

    Basically three messages:
    1. Things will be tough. Suddenly and unavoidably we are poorer.
    2. The vulnerable will be protected.
    3. Reduce your energy consumption to minimise your direct costs and help bring prices down
    The government should be relentlessly focused on these three things.
    3 easier said than done when the temperature drops below zero in winter
    You should have lived in Berwick in the 1950s when we had no heating other than a coal fire, the windows froze inside, and we got dressed under the bed clothes but we survived
    You won't be able to have a coal fire now either because of climate change
    The Coalman who lives down the hill from me must be running some sort of money laundering enterprise then?
    Already now restricted due to its impact on health and the environment
    https://www.gov.uk/government/news/restrictions-on-sale-of-coal-and-wet-wood-for-home-burning-begin
    Thanks to this (and it is yet another Mikey Gove meddling policy) my log delivery man will be bringing the new legal minimum of 28 sacks of seasoned logs to the house next week. I can store that much, although it is an inconvenience.

    Somehow those who deliver seasoned logs have been caught up with stuff about wet wood which nobody who understand their stove would burn anyway.
    Yes the law seems bizarre. Nobody would surely buy small quantities of wet wood. You would buy large quantities of wet wood to store or small quantities of dry wood to burn now. What idiot buys a small bag of wet wood they have to keep for a year to burn in just a day or so.

    Fortunately I have enough wet wood from my garden and enough space and I enjoy chopping it and I season it over about 3 years.
    Apparently the string bags of logs you see at garages are wet wood and the whole Gove-is-a-genius policy was to stop these sales.

    But who was buying them? No one who understands a wood burner would use wet wood unless there was no alternative.

    Yes I had read that but it is difficult to believe it is true. A real ripoff if true and potential chimney fire. I would have thought it could have been dealt with simpler. It seems like a trading standards issue or health and safety.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 30,637
    edited August 2022

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    How the fuck does the machine KNOW what @TOPPING actually looks like???

    Genuinely scary

    Why can’t you just fuck off seriously
    OK I'm going to tell the machine to do you, now
    I’m going to write a user script that hides your posts. Have a good life
    It's done it again!

    I typed in what I felt was a fair, neutral description of you: "a tragic incel known as CHB, photo, 1900s", and it just NAILED you. I'm starting to wonder if it has actual access to our personal photos. This is basically a selfie of you, it is so accurate


  • dixiedean said:

    HYUFD said:

    pigeon said:

    Prediction: Starmer will face Johnson at GE 2024/5

    Please, somebody, make it stop.
    Unfortunately nobody is going to make it stop as the solutions are overwhelming and beyond our politicians of all parties

    This is the time for a cross party government but tribal politics will get in the way
    Agreed. Lab-LD coalition would be our best bet.
    Not if that means no new fracking as vetoed by the LDs reducing our potential energy supplies and hugely unaffordable subsidies from Starmer which give the rich as much as the poor instead of focusing on the latter.

    Sunak to be fair to him has the best plans on that

    Fracking in UK is such a total red herring. It's what right wingers grasp onto when they have no meaningful answers.


    Yep. I am hoping it should say something that there are a few of us on here who are in no way anti-hydrocarbons but who see fracking in the UK as a dead end. The economics and practicality just don't work. If you want to go that way then look at Underground Coal Gasification. Far more practical in the UK than fracking.
    Richard, there are companies who've already drilled holes, and who are prepared to start fracking again - they have been restricted from doing so by the fact that they cause earth tremors that you can sleep through. OK, there may not be a golden future, but where is the harm on telling companies that want to do it, that they can do it?

    I am sure your idea of coal gasification has great merit, but it cannot be turned on right now and make any sort of difference this winter.
    Could fracking make a difference this winter?
    Richard could tell us, but I've heard January as an estimate. There's an awful lot of cold winter left at that point.
    Nah. Fracking wouldn't help us this winter even if the exploitable reserves were there. Which they are not. I doubt if it could even help us next winter to any great degree.

    Fracking is a red herring. There is no quick easy fix from UK gas for this winter's problems.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 28,188
    edited August 2022

    HYUFD said:

    pigeon said:

    Prediction: Starmer will face Johnson at GE 2024/5

    Please, somebody, make it stop.
    Unfortunately nobody is going to make it stop as the solutions are overwhelming and beyond our politicians of all parties

    This is the time for a cross party government but tribal politics will get in the way
    Agreed. Lab-LD coalition would be our best bet.
    Not if that means no new fracking as vetoed by the LDs reducing our potential energy supplies and hugely unaffordable subsidies from Starmer which give the rich as much as the poor instead of focusing on the latter.

    Sunak to be fair to him has the best plans on that

    Fracking in UK is such a total red herring. It's what right wingers grasp onto when they have no meaningful answers.


    Yep. I am hoping it should say something that there are a few of us on here who are in no way anti-hydrocarbons but who see fracking in the UK as a dead end. The economics and practicality just don't work. If you want to go that way then look at Underground Coal Gasification. Far more practical in the UK than fracking.
    Richard, there are companies who've already drilled holes, and who are prepared to start fracking again - they have been restricted from doing so by the fact that they cause earth tremors that you can sleep through. OK, there may not be a golden future, but where is the harm on telling companies that want to do it, that they can do it?

    I am sure your idea of coal gasification has great merit, but it cannot be turned on right now and make any sort of difference this winter.
    There are companies who have drilled holes and found... nothing. At least not in terms that would be of use to us. And as I explained yesterday, drilling a single hole for exploration and appraisal does nothing more than tell you if there are exploitable reserves there. To actually turn that into something useful you need to drill hundreds of holes. Each taking weeks to drill and each needing equipment, resources and people we don't have.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 20,424

    Andy_JS said:

    Does anyone know which candidate Tory MP Neil O'Brien is supporting?

    Was Kemi.
    Seems to have gone into a kind of internal exile like his boss Gove.
    Thanks. He's the last person I would have expected to support Kemi.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 30,637
    In all seriousness, these machines are frighteningly good

    The potential is near infinite, but.... my God the possible downsides

    What happens when they master the algos of humour? And they are funnier than any human? That's just a few years away. Those two lifelike photos of @TOPPING and @CorrectHorseBattery2 are already amusing in their studied and measured accuracy

    Brrr
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 28,188
    edited August 2022
    IshmaelZ said:

    kjh said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    FF43 said:

    ping said:

    Right, I’m gonna go out on a limb here and make a prediction;

    We’re going to see real energy demand destruction across Europe, this winter.

    20%, perhaps.

    A mixture of industry and business shutting down, poor people going cold and the wealthy elderly only heating one room etc.

    Futures markets are right now, near their peak and will come down, gradually, as traders realise actual use is meaningfully falling.

    Indeed. The key is to reduce demand without completely destroying our industrial base and economy for what will be a temporary shock. Our feckless leaders appear not to give the slightest thought to the problem.

    Basically three messages:
    1. Things will be tough. Suddenly and unavoidably we are poorer.
    2. The vulnerable will be protected.
    3. Reduce your energy consumption to minimise your direct costs and help bring prices down
    The government should be relentlessly focused on these three things.
    3 easier said than done when the temperature drops below zero in winter
    You should have lived in Berwick in the 1950s when we had no heating other than a coal fire, the windows froze inside, and we got dressed under the bed clothes but we survived
    You won't be able to have a coal fire now either because of climate change
    The Coalman who lives down the hill from me must be running some sort of money laundering enterprise then?
    Already now restricted due to its impact on health and the environment
    https://www.gov.uk/government/news/restrictions-on-sale-of-coal-and-wet-wood-for-home-burning-begin
    Thanks to this (and it is yet another Mikey Gove meddling policy) my log delivery man will be bringing the new legal minimum of 28 sacks of seasoned logs to the house next week. I can store that much, although it is an inconvenience.

    Somehow those who deliver seasoned logs have been caught up with stuff about wet wood which nobody who understand their stove would burn anyway.
    Yes the law seems bizarre. Nobody would surely buy small quantities of wet wood. You would buy large quantities of wet wood to store or small quantities of dry wood to burn now. What idiot buys a small bag of wet wood they have to keep for a year to burn in just a day or so.

    Fortunately I have enough wet wood from my garden and enough space and I enjoy chopping it and I season it over about 3 years.
    Apparently the string bags of logs you see at garages are wet wood and the whole Gove-is-a-genius policy was to stop these sales.

    But who was buying them? No one who understands a wood burner would use wet wood unless there was no alternative.

    Plenty of people who don't understand wood burners obv, and reasonably assumed that what is sold as firewood is suitable for burning in fires. Seems to me a clear rip off and entirely appropriate for state intervention.

    It does mean that the standard unit of a pickup load of logs is now illegal. Technically.
    I get 20 tonne loads of cord wood which my wife and I process and store ourselves. We have also spent the last decade planting woodland for rotation as well as more permanent woodland.

    Trouble is to do any of this you need space and most people don't have it.

    But I thought the new rules only covered wet wood and that kiln dried was exempt?

    Edit: I have just checked the regulations and I was correct. It is not illegal to sell dried wood in any quantity large or small so long as it has a moisture content of less than 20%. To be honest I would want my moisture content significantly lower than that if I were drying it for burning.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 17,643
    Andy_JS said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Does anyone know which candidate Tory MP Neil O'Brien is supporting?

    Was Kemi.
    Seems to have gone into a kind of internal exile like his boss Gove.
    Thanks. He's the last person I would have expected to support Kemi.
    The whole Levelling Up department did.
    It’s possible that it was a cunning Gove move to split the right and let Rishi through.

  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    China has reached a point of no return in its battle to contain what could be the biggest property crash the world has ever seen, experts are warning, putting the country’s Communist leadership and the global economy in peril.

    As western countries stand on the edge of a potentially ruinous recession in the coming year, China is also facing a slump thanks to “total collapse” of confidence among ordinary people in the once-buoyant housing market, the continued ravages of Beijing’s draconian zero-Covid strategy and an extreme heatwave that is affecting the supply of power and food.

    https://amp.theguardian.com/business/2022/aug/28/crunch-time-china-tries-to-fend-off-property-crash-global-economy

    It's physical gold, tinned food and shotgun cartridge time. Buckle up.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 49,002
    IshmaelZ said:

    China has reached a point of no return in its battle to contain what could be the biggest property crash the world has ever seen, experts are warning, putting the country’s Communist leadership and the global economy in peril.

    As western countries stand on the edge of a potentially ruinous recession in the coming year, China is also facing a slump thanks to “total collapse” of confidence among ordinary people in the once-buoyant housing market, the continued ravages of Beijing’s draconian zero-Covid strategy and an extreme heatwave that is affecting the supply of power and food.

    https://amp.theguardian.com/business/2022/aug/28/crunch-time-china-tries-to-fend-off-property-crash-global-economy

    It's physical gold, tinned food and shotgun cartridge time. Buckle up.

    On the positive side, a Chinese economic crash would mean less demand for coal and gas.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 43,682
    The Sunday Rawnsley, delayed because I have only just sat down to a fish supper in Rhode Island:

    Faced with a scary array of daunting crises that demand immediate attention, we have a zero government.

    One senior Tory uses the technical term “clusterfuck of nightmares” to describe what awaits his next leader.

    The battle has been ferociously personal, but it has been waged on a narrow strip of dogmatically rightwing ground. Both are market-loving, regulation-loathing, state-shrinking Tories and hard Brexiters, Mr Sunak by conviction, Ms Truss by career-convenient conversion. Both have treated the many challenges facing Britain as of less importance than conjuring up tax cuts that would most benefit the more affluent.

    There is a growing view among Conservative MPs that the handling of the energy crisis will define the fate of the new prime minister and determine their party’s prospects at the next election. Yet neither of the contenders has offered answers commensurate to the severity of the threat.

    The favourite to take over at Number 10 appears to be more interested in shielding Boris Johnson than protecting Britons from the cascading crises that he will leave in his wake.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    IshmaelZ said:

    kjh said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    FF43 said:

    ping said:

    Right, I’m gonna go out on a limb here and make a prediction;

    We’re going to see real energy demand destruction across Europe, this winter.

    20%, perhaps.

    A mixture of industry and business shutting down, poor people going cold and the wealthy elderly only heating one room etc.

    Futures markets are right now, near their peak and will come down, gradually, as traders realise actual use is meaningfully falling.

    Indeed. The key is to reduce demand without completely destroying our industrial base and economy for what will be a temporary shock. Our feckless leaders appear not to give the slightest thought to the problem.

    Basically three messages:
    1. Things will be tough. Suddenly and unavoidably we are poorer.
    2. The vulnerable will be protected.
    3. Reduce your energy consumption to minimise your direct costs and help bring prices down
    The government should be relentlessly focused on these three things.
    3 easier said than done when the temperature drops below zero in winter
    You should have lived in Berwick in the 1950s when we had no heating other than a coal fire, the windows froze inside, and we got dressed under the bed clothes but we survived
    You won't be able to have a coal fire now either because of climate change
    The Coalman who lives down the hill from me must be running some sort of money laundering enterprise then?
    Already now restricted due to its impact on health and the environment
    https://www.gov.uk/government/news/restrictions-on-sale-of-coal-and-wet-wood-for-home-burning-begin
    Thanks to this (and it is yet another Mikey Gove meddling policy) my log delivery man will be bringing the new legal minimum of 28 sacks of seasoned logs to the house next week. I can store that much, although it is an inconvenience.

    Somehow those who deliver seasoned logs have been caught up with stuff about wet wood which nobody who understand their stove would burn anyway.
    Yes the law seems bizarre. Nobody would surely buy small quantities of wet wood. You would buy large quantities of wet wood to store or small quantities of dry wood to burn now. What idiot buys a small bag of wet wood they have to keep for a year to burn in just a day or so.

    Fortunately I have enough wet wood from my garden and enough space and I enjoy chopping it and I season it over about 3 years.
    Apparently the string bags of logs you see at garages are wet wood and the whole Gove-is-a-genius policy was to stop these sales.

    But who was buying them? No one who understands a wood burner would use wet wood unless there was no alternative.

    Plenty of people who don't understand wood burners obv, and reasonably assumed that what is sold as firewood is suitable for burning in fires. Seems to me a clear rip off and entirely appropriate for state intervention.

    It does mean that the standard unit of a pickup load of logs is now illegal. Technically.
    I get 20 tonne loads of cord wood which my wife and I process and store ourselves. We have also spent the last decade planting woodland for rotation as well as more permanent woodland.

    Trouble is to do any of this you need space and most people don't have it.

    But I thought the new rules only covered wet wood and that kiln dried was exempt?
    Yes, but I imagine the tree surgeons selling the pickup loads don't have kilns (which seem a pointless faff given the efficiency of time and exposure to the elements)

    Like you I am self sufficient. Looking at the price of wood on the internet I am surprised it is cost effective to buy in, at least until the new gas hike.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 17,643
    It does rather feel like someone unplugged the bath in 2016 (or perhaps 2014, or maybe even 2001) and we have been circling the plug-hole ever since.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 20,506
    rcs1000 said:

    dixiedean said:

    HYUFD said:

    pigeon said:

    Prediction: Starmer will face Johnson at GE 2024/5

    Please, somebody, make it stop.
    Unfortunately nobody is going to make it stop as the solutions are overwhelming and beyond our politicians of all parties

    This is the time for a cross party government but tribal politics will get in the way
    Agreed. Lab-LD coalition would be our best bet.
    Not if that means no new fracking as vetoed by the LDs reducing our potential energy supplies and hugely unaffordable subsidies from Starmer which give the rich as much as the poor instead of focusing on the latter.

    Sunak to be fair to him has the best plans on that

    Fracking in UK is such a total red herring. It's what right wingers grasp onto when they have no meaningful answers.


    Yep. I am hoping it should say something that there are a few of us on here who are in no way anti-hydrocarbons but who see fracking in the UK as a dead end. The economics and practicality just don't work. If you want to go that way then look at Underground Coal Gasification. Far more practical in the UK than fracking.
    Richard, there are companies who've already drilled holes, and who are prepared to start fracking again - they have been restricted from doing so by the fact that they cause earth tremors that you can sleep through. OK, there may not be a golden future, but where is the harm on telling companies that want to do it, that they can do it?

    I am sure your idea of coal gasification has great merit, but it cannot be turned on right now and make any sort of difference this winter.
    Could fracking make a difference this winter?
    No.

    Let's put this in context for a second.

    There are probably 30 land rigs in Europe capable of directional drilling. Most of them are pre-contracted.

    Let's assume you can get one. And let's assume that the fracking ban doesn't exist. And that all restrictions on drilling activity are lifted. Drill where you like (so long as you have the mineral rights.)

    Unfortunately, this is where things get difficult. There hasn't been a single well drilled that has encountered commercial levels of gas. Realistically, we would need a programme of half a dozen rigs drilling experimental wells for a couple of year to see if there are any particular parts of the Bowland formation that are more encouraging. But do bear in mind that the 35 or so wells drilled by Cuadrilla and iGas were in the parts that seismic and core samples suggested were most attractive.

    The key stat is this: iGas's shares had lost more than 99% of their value even before the ban on fracking.

    Your post indicates that UK shale is a busted flush, that's why nobody does it. As you know, that is not the reason, the reason is because frackers cannot extract gas unless they guarantee that very minor earth tremors won't happen. So where's the harm in changing that rule given the far greater danger posed by the energy crisis? If they don't find much gas, that's their lookout.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 8,345

    IshmaelZ said:

    kjh said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    FF43 said:

    ping said:

    Right, I’m gonna go out on a limb here and make a prediction;

    We’re going to see real energy demand destruction across Europe, this winter.

    20%, perhaps.

    A mixture of industry and business shutting down, poor people going cold and the wealthy elderly only heating one room etc.

    Futures markets are right now, near their peak and will come down, gradually, as traders realise actual use is meaningfully falling.

    Indeed. The key is to reduce demand without completely destroying our industrial base and economy for what will be a temporary shock. Our feckless leaders appear not to give the slightest thought to the problem.

    Basically three messages:
    1. Things will be tough. Suddenly and unavoidably we are poorer.
    2. The vulnerable will be protected.
    3. Reduce your energy consumption to minimise your direct costs and help bring prices down
    The government should be relentlessly focused on these three things.
    3 easier said than done when the temperature drops below zero in winter
    You should have lived in Berwick in the 1950s when we had no heating other than a coal fire, the windows froze inside, and we got dressed under the bed clothes but we survived
    You won't be able to have a coal fire now either because of climate change
    The Coalman who lives down the hill from me must be running some sort of money laundering enterprise then?
    Already now restricted due to its impact on health and the environment
    https://www.gov.uk/government/news/restrictions-on-sale-of-coal-and-wet-wood-for-home-burning-begin
    Thanks to this (and it is yet another Mikey Gove meddling policy) my log delivery man will be bringing the new legal minimum of 28 sacks of seasoned logs to the house next week. I can store that much, although it is an inconvenience.

    Somehow those who deliver seasoned logs have been caught up with stuff about wet wood which nobody who understand their stove would burn anyway.
    Yes the law seems bizarre. Nobody would surely buy small quantities of wet wood. You would buy large quantities of wet wood to store or small quantities of dry wood to burn now. What idiot buys a small bag of wet wood they have to keep for a year to burn in just a day or so.

    Fortunately I have enough wet wood from my garden and enough space and I enjoy chopping it and I season it over about 3 years.
    Apparently the string bags of logs you see at garages are wet wood and the whole Gove-is-a-genius policy was to stop these sales.

    But who was buying them? No one who understands a wood burner would use wet wood unless there was no alternative.

    Plenty of people who don't understand wood burners obv, and reasonably assumed that what is sold as firewood is suitable for burning in fires. Seems to me a clear rip off and entirely appropriate for state intervention.

    It does mean that the standard unit of a pickup load of logs is now illegal. Technically.
    I get 20 tonne loads of cord wood which my wife and I process and store ourselves. We have also spent the last decade planting woodland for rotation as well as more permanent woodland.

    Trouble is to do any of this you need space and most people don't have it.

    But I thought the new rules only covered wet wood and that kiln dried was exempt?
    Yes that was my understanding.

    People should only being buying wet wood to season. In which case you would only be buying in quantity and therefore need storage which would be a challenge for many.

    Anyone selling wet wood in small quantities (ie to burn now) is not selling stuff fit for purpose. I would have thought current law should have taken care of that. Nobody goes to a garage to buy 6 logs to burn in a years time. If wet that should be a trading standards issue.

  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 9,214
    edited August 2022
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    How the fuck does the machine KNOW what @TOPPING actually looks like???

    Genuinely scary

    Why can’t you just fuck off seriously
    OK I'm going to tell the machine to do you, now
    Is this a fun PB bonding competition, to design a new avatar for horse 🤗

    I thought CHB2 sounded a like a horse droid from Star Wars, so I just done this using DREAM



    Edit: you are not obliged to use it

    Edit2: though it’s far better than rubbish Leon came up with 🙂
  • kjhkjh Posts: 8,345
    IshmaelZ said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    kjh said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    FF43 said:

    ping said:

    Right, I’m gonna go out on a limb here and make a prediction;

    We’re going to see real energy demand destruction across Europe, this winter.

    20%, perhaps.

    A mixture of industry and business shutting down, poor people going cold and the wealthy elderly only heating one room etc.

    Futures markets are right now, near their peak and will come down, gradually, as traders realise actual use is meaningfully falling.

    Indeed. The key is to reduce demand without completely destroying our industrial base and economy for what will be a temporary shock. Our feckless leaders appear not to give the slightest thought to the problem.

    Basically three messages:
    1. Things will be tough. Suddenly and unavoidably we are poorer.
    2. The vulnerable will be protected.
    3. Reduce your energy consumption to minimise your direct costs and help bring prices down
    The government should be relentlessly focused on these three things.
    3 easier said than done when the temperature drops below zero in winter
    You should have lived in Berwick in the 1950s when we had no heating other than a coal fire, the windows froze inside, and we got dressed under the bed clothes but we survived
    You won't be able to have a coal fire now either because of climate change
    The Coalman who lives down the hill from me must be running some sort of money laundering enterprise then?
    Already now restricted due to its impact on health and the environment
    https://www.gov.uk/government/news/restrictions-on-sale-of-coal-and-wet-wood-for-home-burning-begin
    Thanks to this (and it is yet another Mikey Gove meddling policy) my log delivery man will be bringing the new legal minimum of 28 sacks of seasoned logs to the house next week. I can store that much, although it is an inconvenience.

    Somehow those who deliver seasoned logs have been caught up with stuff about wet wood which nobody who understand their stove would burn anyway.
    Yes the law seems bizarre. Nobody would surely buy small quantities of wet wood. You would buy large quantities of wet wood to store or small quantities of dry wood to burn now. What idiot buys a small bag of wet wood they have to keep for a year to burn in just a day or so.

    Fortunately I have enough wet wood from my garden and enough space and I enjoy chopping it and I season it over about 3 years.
    Apparently the string bags of logs you see at garages are wet wood and the whole Gove-is-a-genius policy was to stop these sales.

    But who was buying them? No one who understands a wood burner would use wet wood unless there was no alternative.

    Plenty of people who don't understand wood burners obv, and reasonably assumed that what is sold as firewood is suitable for burning in fires. Seems to me a clear rip off and entirely appropriate for state intervention.

    It does mean that the standard unit of a pickup load of logs is now illegal. Technically.
    I get 20 tonne loads of cord wood which my wife and I process and store ourselves. We have also spent the last decade planting woodland for rotation as well as more permanent woodland.

    Trouble is to do any of this you need space and most people don't have it.

    But I thought the new rules only covered wet wood and that kiln dried was exempt?
    Yes, but I imagine the tree surgeons selling the pickup loads don't have kilns (which seem a pointless faff given the efficiency of time and exposure to the elements)

    Like you I am self sufficient. Looking at the price of wood on the internet I am surprised it is cost effective to buy in, at least until the new gas hike.
    I do think there is terrible wastage unfortunately. Every tree surgeon I have spoken to treats the wood they cut as waste. To much effort to store and season and not enough space. Plus a lot is softwood that most people don't want. I have no objection to softwood in a burner (so spitting not an issue) I mix with hard wood, but many won't touch it.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 20,506

    HYUFD said:

    pigeon said:

    Prediction: Starmer will face Johnson at GE 2024/5

    Please, somebody, make it stop.
    Unfortunately nobody is going to make it stop as the solutions are overwhelming and beyond our politicians of all parties

    This is the time for a cross party government but tribal politics will get in the way
    Agreed. Lab-LD coalition would be our best bet.
    Not if that means no new fracking as vetoed by the LDs reducing our potential energy supplies and hugely unaffordable subsidies from Starmer which give the rich as much as the poor instead of focusing on the latter.

    Sunak to be fair to him has the best plans on that

    Fracking in UK is such a total red herring. It's what right wingers grasp onto when they have no meaningful answers.


    Yep. I am hoping it should say something that there are a few of us on here who are in no way anti-hydrocarbons but who see fracking in the UK as a dead end. The economics and practicality just don't work. If you want to go that way then look at Underground Coal Gasification. Far more practical in the UK than fracking.
    Richard, there are companies who've already drilled holes, and who are prepared to start fracking again - they have been restricted from doing so by the fact that they cause earth tremors that you can sleep through. OK, there may not be a golden future, but where is the harm on telling companies that want to do it, that they can do it?

    I am sure your idea of coal gasification has great merit, but it cannot be turned on right now and make any sort of difference this winter.
    There are companies who have drilled holes and found... nothing. At least not in terms that would be of use to us. And as I explained yesterday, drilling a single hole for exploration and appraisal does nothing more than tell you if there are exploitable reserves there. To actually turn that into something useful you need to drill hundreds of holes. Each taking weeks to drill and each needing equipment, resources and people we don't have.
    I understand that, but we can perhaps all agree that if the companies have existing wells, and the means and desire to exploit them, we should reduce restrictions on such activity to a level commensurate with the current situation. No?
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 20,506
    In other 'sack the entire civil service' news, apparently the decision on the Cumbria coking coal mine has now been delayed until November??
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cumbria-62499981.amp
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 43,344

    It does rather feel like someone unplugged the bath in 2016 (or perhaps 2014, or maybe even 2001) and we have been circling the plug-hole ever since.

    It all went wrong around 1880.
  • HMS Prince of Wales breaks down shortly after leaving Portsmouth
    The £3 billion Royal Navy aircraft carrier anchors off the Isle of Wight after encountering 'mechanical issue'

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/08/28/hms-prince-wales-breaks-shortly-leaving-portsmouth/ (£££)

    The Telegraph adds that in its two years of service, the carrier has spent just 87 days at sea.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 17,643

    It does rather feel like someone unplugged the bath in 2016 (or perhaps 2014, or maybe even 2001) and we have been circling the plug-hole ever since.

    It all went wrong around 1880.
    From the 1880s a mounting sense of the limits of the liberal, regulative state became apparent. One reflection of this awareness was the increasing perception of national decline, relative to the increasing strength of other European countries and the United States…

    …One consequence of this and other developments was the growth of movements aimed at “national efficiency” as a means of establishing a more effective state machine. The recognition of social problems at home—such as the “discovery” of urban poverty in 1880s in the assumed presence of plenty and increasing anxiety about the “labour question”—also raised questions about the adequacy of the state in dealing with the mounting problems of an increasingly populous and complex society.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 9,214

    Anyone noticed yet Labours lead has basically halved in the latest YouGov polling?

    Another finding in the same poll, 13% have faith in Truss to bring down inflation.

    The figure sounds too high to me 😆
    Daily Mail not cheerleading tomorrow, on the front at least. Suggests money to fix social care should be a priority.


    From the hints, it’s Hamilton in there 🥺 Oh Lewis. It’s looks like nuclear war in Tele tubbyland
    Looks all over for CON. No one likes Keir either. Is it an opportunity for your leader Davey and his team to step into the void and seek first LD government since 1906??
    MoonRabbit is a Tory. Not a Lib Dem
    I’ll explain it one more time.

    MoonRabbit has strong conservative instincts as raised by Conservative members - but has never voted Tory. She only ever voted LibDem (plus once for a man with a bin on his head) this is because the current Tories are right wing populists, that is not only not proper Conservatism, but the very enemy of everything conservatives hold dear and believe in.

    Right wing Populism pushes the idea of popular sovereignty above the independence of democratic institutions, and the professionalism of the representatives of those institutions, conservatism does not. populism like Trump and Boris are populist opportunism masquerading as values and agenda for government, a crusading ideology pretending it is the voice of all the people, undemocratically deaf to anyone with a different view. They have hi jacked conservatism in UK, and they are trashing it. Instead of listening to criticism from CoE they instinctively attack the CoE, that is not UK conservatism. Likewise their undermining of civil service and attack on all the counterbalances of power - this too is not UK Conservatism.

    Hope that explains how proper Conservatives can be voting Lib Dem right now, as high time to see right wing populism as being the main enemy of UK conservatives now, and oppose it like Liz Cheney opposing the Trump garbage.

    Alternatively maybe I take Christian values far more seriously than my family and others who are still voting Conservative, so ideas like “beware apartheid of the pocket” from Lord David Steel, keeps my vote Lib Dem forever 🤷‍♀️

    I don’t think I can explain myself more clearly or honestly than this. Any questions 🙂
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 20,506

    In other 'sack the entire civil service' news, apparently the decision on the Cumbria coking coal mine has now been delayed until November??
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cumbria-62499981.amp

    In fact, who is the Minister concerned - why is the department itself even involved in this decision?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 30,637
    IshmaelZ said:

    China has reached a point of no return in its battle to contain what could be the biggest property crash the world has ever seen, experts are warning, putting the country’s Communist leadership and the global economy in peril.

    As western countries stand on the edge of a potentially ruinous recession in the coming year, China is also facing a slump thanks to “total collapse” of confidence among ordinary people in the once-buoyant housing market, the continued ravages of Beijing’s draconian zero-Covid strategy and an extreme heatwave that is affecting the supply of power and food.

    https://amp.theguardian.com/business/2022/aug/28/crunch-time-china-tries-to-fend-off-property-crash-global-economy

    It's physical gold, tinned food and shotgun cartridge time. Buckle up.

    It would help if China told Putin to quit his warring, around about now. Beijing is the only capital that can influence Moscow that directly

    Indeed, there must be elements in China considering this. We are all edging nearer the precipice, in Asia and Europe, An end to the Ukraine war would be a big relief
  • HYUFD said:

    pigeon said:

    Prediction: Starmer will face Johnson at GE 2024/5

    Please, somebody, make it stop.
    Unfortunately nobody is going to make it stop as the solutions are overwhelming and beyond our politicians of all parties

    This is the time for a cross party government but tribal politics will get in the way
    Agreed. Lab-LD coalition would be our best bet.
    Not if that means no new fracking as vetoed by the LDs reducing our potential energy supplies and hugely unaffordable subsidies from Starmer which give the rich as much as the poor instead of focusing on the latter.

    Sunak to be fair to him has the best plans on that

    Fracking in UK is such a total red herring. It's what right wingers grasp onto when they have no meaningful answers.


    Yep. I am hoping it should say something that there are a few of us on here who are in no way anti-hydrocarbons but who see fracking in the UK as a dead end. The economics and practicality just don't work. If you want to go that way then look at Underground Coal Gasification. Far more practical in the UK than fracking.
    Richard, there are companies who've already drilled holes, and who are prepared to start fracking again - they have been restricted from doing so by the fact that they cause earth tremors that you can sleep through. OK, there may not be a golden future, but where is the harm on telling companies that want to do it, that they can do it?

    I am sure your idea of coal gasification has great merit, but it cannot be turned on right now and make any sort of difference this winter.
    There are companies who have drilled holes and found... nothing. At least not in terms that would be of use to us. And as I explained yesterday, drilling a single hole for exploration and appraisal does nothing more than tell you if there are exploitable reserves there. To actually turn that into something useful you need to drill hundreds of holes. Each taking weeks to drill and each needing equipment, resources and people we don't have.
    I understand that, but we can perhaps all agree that if the companies have existing wells, and the means and desire to exploit them, we should reduce restrictions on such activity to a level commensurate with the current situation. No?
    There is no point. Those wells can produce nothing on their own. Indeed if they are like any normal exploration well they will already have been plugged and abandoned - which would have happened whether they found gas or not. It is very rare that the place where you drill your exploration and appraisal wells is the same place that you drill your development wells.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 17,643
    Truss considering cutting VAT to 10%.
This discussion has been closed.