Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. Sign in or register to get started.

PM Truss’s first test – the energy cost crisis – politicalbetting.com

123457

Comments

  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,397

    ydoethur said:

    BJO has had an absolute mare today. Linking to the Twitter homepage :D

    Surely normally the horse rather than the owl should have the mare?
    Neigh
    So you neigh and the owl gets to win-nie?
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,863
    DougSeal said:

    Is there going to be a prize for the best Leon impersonation?

    The position of deputy site twat is still available.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,269
    IanB2 said:

    Leon said:

    IanB2 said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Mr. kinabalu, the hypocrisy was and remains amusing, as amusing as it is alarming.

    A drunken fool's ideology that promotes racist nonsense is wretched whether it's bigoted against whites or Jews, or Koreans, or all three. Or blacks, Arabs, and Japanese.

    There are some crass and counterproductive aspects to antiracist thinking and activism- this I can well see. Indeed thanks to Leon we get most of them copied onto here for our perusal and scorn.

    What doesn't get copied in quite so much - in fact at all - are any of the countless depressing little incidents in everyday life that are driven by racism, conscious or unconscious, overt or latent, structural or freelance.

    What I genuinely cannot relate to about what you (and tbf several other right wing inclined posters on here) bring to this whole topic is how you are way more concerned about those aforesaid excesses of antiracism than you are about the thing it seeks to highlight and combat - racism.

    This is the problem with you guys from where I'm sitting.
    The problem with you, the ENORMOUS problem with you, is that you are up yourself, so glistening with the slime of moral self regard, you fail to see that Wokeness is taking a fucking wrecking ball to the Enlightenment, and also encouraging and cementing the racial divisions you pretend to worry about . Perhaps it is because you simply don't care? I do not think you are that callous. I think it is because you are actually quite stupid, and narrow minded, as we have established, on here, passim
    Yawn. Same old same old. Not just the sentiments but the language - almost right down to the actual words. You think of yourself as a freewheeling original with eclectic ‘impossible to pigeonhole’ opinions yet your views on whatever crops up on any particular PB day, and how you express them, are amongst the most predictable on here. I mean, if we got ‘AI’ on the job you’d be one of the first products off the delivery line and it’d be a damn fine one.
    I think everyone should post in the style of Leon for the rest of the day. I'm sure it's harder than it looks - a line I imagine Leon will have heard before.
    It's difficult, but not impossible, to convincingly copy my style. @eadric did it for a while with some elan
    Pretending to be impervious to logic, the gratuitous insults and bigotry, and putting random WORDS in capitals is the easy bit. The detachment from any sort of rational analysis grounded in the real world will be the difficult bit.
    I'd find it hard to copy you because you have absolutely no personality at all. No humour, no wit, no quirks, no nothing. You are a nullity. It would be like trying to draw a void
    And that is supposed to worry me, how? Most probably, you simply cannot draw.

    I wear the badge of being the anti-Leon with pride.
    Given the number of @SeanTs, you certainly can’t be accused of being prejudiced against a…. minority.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541
    Leon’s amusing
    IanB2 said:

    Leon said:

    IanB2 said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Mr. kinabalu, the hypocrisy was and remains amusing, as amusing as it is alarming.

    A drunken fool's ideology that promotes racist nonsense is wretched whether it's bigoted against whites or Jews, or Koreans, or all three. Or blacks, Arabs, and Japanese.

    There are some crass and counterproductive aspects to antiracist thinking and activism- this I can well see. Indeed thanks to Leon we get most of them copied onto here for our perusal and scorn.

    What doesn't get copied in quite so much - in fact at all - are any of the countless depressing little incidents in everyday life that are driven by racism, conscious or unconscious, overt or latent, structural or freelance.

    What I genuinely cannot relate to about what you (and tbf several other right wing inclined posters on here) bring to this whole topic is how you are way more concerned about those aforesaid excesses of antiracism than you are about the thing it seeks to highlight and combat - racism.

    This is the problem with you guys from where I'm sitting.
    The problem with you, the ENORMOUS problem with you, is that you are up yourself, so glistening with the slime of moral self regard, you fail to see that Wokeness is taking a fucking wrecking ball to the Enlightenment, and also encouraging and cementing the racial divisions you pretend to worry about . Perhaps it is because you simply don't care? I do not think you are that callous. I think it is because you are actually quite stupid, and narrow minded, as we have established, on here, passim
    Yawn. Same old same old. Not just the sentiments but the language - almost right down to the actual words. You think of yourself as a freewheeling original with eclectic ‘impossible to pigeonhole’ opinions yet your views on whatever crops up on any particular PB day, and how you express them, are amongst the most predictable on here. I mean, if we got ‘AI’ on the job you’d be one of the first products off the delivery line and it’d be a damn fine one.
    I think everyone should post in the style of Leon for the rest of the day. I'm sure it's harder than it looks - a line I imagine Leon will have heard before.
    It's difficult, but not impossible, to convincingly copy my style. @eadric did it for a while with some elan
    Pretending to be impervious to logic, the gratuitous insults and bigotry, and putting random WORDS in capitals is the easy bit. The detachment from any sort of rational analysis grounded in the real world will be the difficult bit.
    I'd find it hard to copy you because you have absolutely no personality at all. No humour, no wit, no quirks, no nothing. You are a nullity. It would be like trying to draw a
    void
    And that is supposed to worry me, how? Most probably, you simply cannot draw.

    I wear the badge of being the anti-Leon with pride.
    I think Leon’s protesting a bit too much about you TBH
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,963
    Dura_Ace said:

    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    TOPPING said:

    Sean_F said:

    Nigelb said:

    ydoethur said:

    Sean_F said:

    TOPPING said:

    fwiw while I have little doubt that the UK civil service and FO was at best anti-Israel and at worst anti-semitic in the past, I would be surprised if there were too many anti-semites there now for precisely the reason (wokeness) that Truss complains of.

    That said, it is easy for those on the left (not you @Stark_Dawning ) to stray into anti-Israel/pro-Palestine/anti-semitism so perhaps that's what she's getting at.

    It was always a theme in Yes Minister that the Civil Service was "pro Arab" (to put it politely).

    It probably was a hangover from Imperial times, when ex colonial administrators had fond memories of the local sheikh or emir offering them a boy for the night, as a form of hospitality.
    I thought it was more simply that the Arabs had oil and the Israelis didn't. Piss off the Arabs and it had unfortunate consequences for our oil supply (as Eden found out). 'The PM should be concerned about the Oily Places not the Holy Places.'

    Of course, that may have been a cover for anti-semitic prejudice.
    That's post WWII, though, and hardly a novel development.

    Pre-war antisemitism was not exactly unusual in British society, as this (surprisingly un-judgmental) article suggests:
    https://thecritic.co.uk/issues/august-september-2021/such-such-were-the-goys/

    (Incidentally, I note that both Michael Gove and Theresa May are self proclaimed admirers of Dornford Yates.)
    Trollope has characters complaining "his greasy Israelitish smile", "a swarthy son of Judah", "a man whose father was probably selling matchsticks in Whitechapel". He had an especial loathing for Jews who converted to Christianity, who he saw as wolves in sheep's clothing. Mr. Melius, a popular preacher, is an immigrant from Bohemia and born a Jew, which makes him very suspect. It turns out, he is guilty of bigamy, and all good-thinking folk applaud when he gets ten years' imprisonment for it.
    Plus there is, you know, the biggie Jew from literature.
    St. Paul... Jesus ?
    Jehovah? Doesn't get much bigger!
    Would it be accurate to so describe a deity ?
    Personally, I've always felt like God is an Englishman. Ralph Richardson type, as in the movie. Means well, enormously powerful, a bit vague sometimes, ineffable and omniscient, drinks too much

    As to whether God is actually Jewish, there is an old Israeli saying - if God is really Jewish, and the Jews are His chosen people, how come the Arabs got all the oil?
    In that case God rides a (German) motorbike.


    R75/6. First boxer with the camshaft under the crank.
    Knew I could depend on you!
    I think Sir R. dabbled in other marques (I have a vague memory of him road testing a Hesketh) but Beemers were always his first love.
  • ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    BJO has had an absolute mare today. Linking to the Twitter homepage :D

    Surely normally the horse rather than the owl should have the mare?
    Neigh
    So you neigh and the owl gets to win-nie?
    No he gets to whip and I get to neigh neigh
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,368
    DougSeal said:

    Is there going to be a prize for the best Leon impersonation?

    It's all a bit Benjamin Button, but it has to be @SeanT.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541
    IanB2 said:

    DougSeal said:

    Is there going to be a prize for the best Leon impersonation?

    The position of deputy site twat is still available.
    Thanks but I was aiming for the top job in that respect.
  • From here, please can we just ignore the poster called Leon and we'll all be much happier. Stop quoting him and stop responding to him, he'll get bored.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    ydoethur said:

    The BBC weather map tells me it's raining here.

    A look outside my office window tells me it isn't.

    If you drill down you will find the map represents a probability that it is raining

    Dry here but just been upgraded to amber warning which is exciting
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,313
    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Mr. kinabalu, the hypocrisy was and remains amusing, as amusing as it is alarming.

    A drunken fool's ideology that promotes racist nonsense is wretched whether it's bigoted against whites or Jews, or Koreans, or all three. Or blacks, Arabs, and Japanese.

    There are some crass and counterproductive aspects to antiracist thinking and activism- this I can well see. Indeed thanks to Leon we get most of them copied onto here for our perusal and scorn.

    What doesn't get copied in quite so much - in fact at all - are any of the countless depressing little incidents in everyday life that are driven by racism, conscious or unconscious, overt or latent, structural or freelance.

    What I genuinely cannot relate to about what you (and tbf several other right wing inclined posters on here) bring to this whole topic is how you are way more concerned about those aforesaid excesses of antiracism than you are about the thing it seeks to highlight and combat - racism.

    This is the problem with you guys from where I'm sitting.
    The problem with you, the ENORMOUS problem with you, is that you are up yourself, so glistening with the slime of moral self regard, you fail to see that Wokeness is taking a fucking wrecking ball to the Enlightenment, and also encouraging and cementing the racial divisions you pretend to worry about . Perhaps it is because you simply don't care? I do not think you are that callous. I think it is because you are actually quite stupid, and narrow minded, as we have established, on here, passim
    Yawn. Same old same old. Not just the sentiments but the language - almost right down to the actual words. You think of yourself as a freewheeling original with eclectic ‘impossible to pigeonhole’ opinions yet your views on whatever crops up on any particular PB day, and how you express them, are amongst the most predictable on here. I mean, if we got ‘AI’ on the job you’d be one of the first products off the delivery line and it’d be a damn fine one.
    I think everyone should post in the style of Leon for the rest of the day. I'm sure it's harder than it looks - a line I imagine Leon will have heard before.
    That would be quite the experiment!

    But I must be away. My gym beckons and the frisson will be building down there as they await.

    Then a G&T or three and as for this evening - who knows? It's a blank canvas on which I have yet to lay my brush.

    Brace.

    And Laters. :smile:
    I nominate this for the Worst Leon Impression Ever. And I should know, having endured @LadyG and @Mysticrose
  • Removal vans outside number 10
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,397

    DougSeal said:

    Is there going to be a prize for the best Leon impersonation?

    It's all a bit Benjamin Button, but it has to be @SeanT.
    He has never been as inventive as old Sean was though.

    I'm still waiting for somebody to top Sean's famous drunken rant, 'I don't give a tankard of warm donkey spunk what you think of me.'
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,359
    IshmaelZ said:

    Cyclefree said:

    kinabalu said:

    Mr. Leon/Mr. kinabalu, indoctrinating children into this nonsense is rather more alarming than some seem to think.

    As this video rather shows:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1I3wJ7pJUjg

    I really do think that children can have an appreciation of the racist legacy of western colonialism - inc the notion of white privilege - without becoming so crippled with personal guilt that they can't tie their own shoelaces.
    They shouldn't feel or be taught any personal guilt whatsoever. The sins of the fathers or, in this case, the multiple great-grandfathers, are not visited on the sons. This was the whole basis of Christian anti-semitism. It was wrong when applied to Jews. It is wrong when applied to people now who have no responsibility whatsoever for what people in previous centuries did or did not do.
    True but only 50% of the picture. Black people have no right to white guilt but they do have a right to the truth; there is a reason why holocaust denial is a crime. Slavery denial OTOH is routine, because its victims are a bit smaller and further away, and harder to see in the dark. It was the defining institution of its age and the basis of the rise of this country and the USA to world domination. Lying about this is wrong.
    There are people in the USA who will argue that slavery was a benign institution. I don't think there's anyone (outside of the lunatic fringe) who would argue that in the UK.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,397

    Removal vans outside number 10

    We always said he'd have to be taken away in a van.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,061

    Removal vans outside number 10

    Boz not coming home till September 5th then!
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,863
    edited August 2022

    From here, please can we just ignore the poster called Leon and we'll all be much happier. Stop quoting him and stop responding to him, he'll get bored.

    But he only comes here because he is bored? Despite being a globe-trotting lothario (by his own account).
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,863
    edited August 2022
    ydoethur said:

    DougSeal said:

    Is there going to be a prize for the best Leon impersonation?

    It's all a bit Benjamin Button, but it has to be @SeanT.
    He has never been as inventive as old Sean was though.

    I'm still waiting for somebody to top Sean's famous drunken rant, 'I don't give a tankard of warm donkey spunk what you think of me.'
    Anyone can afford to gamble with such small stakes.
  • Removal vans outside number 10

    We shall never get to see £200,000-worth of interior design in situ. :'(
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    Sean_F said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Cyclefree said:

    kinabalu said:

    Mr. Leon/Mr. kinabalu, indoctrinating children into this nonsense is rather more alarming than some seem to think.

    As this video rather shows:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1I3wJ7pJUjg

    I really do think that children can have an appreciation of the racist legacy of western colonialism - inc the notion of white privilege - without becoming so crippled with personal guilt that they can't tie their own shoelaces.
    They shouldn't feel or be taught any personal guilt whatsoever. The sins of the fathers or, in this case, the multiple great-grandfathers, are not visited on the sons. This was the whole basis of Christian anti-semitism. It was wrong when applied to Jews. It is wrong when applied to people now who have no responsibility whatsoever for what people in previous centuries did or did not do.
    True but only 50% of the picture. Black people have no right to white guilt but they do have a right to the truth; there is a reason why holocaust denial is a crime. Slavery denial OTOH is routine, because its victims are a bit smaller and further away, and harder to see in the dark. It was the defining institution of its age and the basis of the rise of this country and the USA to world domination. Lying about this is wrong.
    There are people in the USA who will argue that slavery was a benign institution. I don't think there's anyone (outside of the lunatic fringe) who would argue that in the UK.
    No, but the default position is a lot of bollocks mitigation: people have always done it, the Arabs did it more than we did it, Wilberforce, West Africa squadron, all that shit.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,863

    Removal vans outside number 10

    We shall never get to see £200,000-worth of interior design in situ. :'(
    Oh, yes you will.

    The Ceaucescu gold taps revelation is just weeks away….
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,963
    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Mr. kinabalu, the hypocrisy was and remains amusing, as amusing as it is alarming.

    A drunken fool's ideology that promotes racist nonsense is wretched whether it's bigoted against whites or Jews, or Koreans, or all three. Or blacks, Arabs, and Japanese.

    There are some crass and counterproductive aspects to antiracist thinking and activism- this I can well see. Indeed thanks to Leon we get most of them copied onto here for our perusal and scorn.

    What doesn't get copied in quite so much - in fact at all - are any of the countless depressing little incidents in everyday life that are driven by racism, conscious or unconscious, overt or latent, structural or freelance.

    What I genuinely cannot relate to about what you (and tbf several other right wing inclined posters on here) bring to this whole topic is how you are way more concerned about those aforesaid excesses of antiracism than you are about the thing it seeks to highlight and combat - racism.

    This is the problem with you guys from where I'm sitting.
    The problem with you, the ENORMOUS problem with you, is that you are up yourself, so glistening with the slime of moral self regard, you fail to see that Wokeness is taking a fucking wrecking ball to the Enlightenment, and also encouraging and cementing the racial divisions you pretend to worry about . Perhaps it is because you simply don't care? I do not think you are that callous. I think it is because you are actually quite stupid, and narrow minded, as we have established, on here, passim
    Yawn. Same old same old. Not just the sentiments but the language - almost right down to the actual words. You think of yourself as a freewheeling original with eclectic ‘impossible to pigeonhole’ opinions yet your views on whatever crops up on any particular PB day, and how you express them, are amongst the most predictable on here. I mean, if we got ‘AI’ on the job you’d be one of the first products off the delivery line and it’d be a damn fine one.
    I think everyone should post in the style of Leon for the rest of the day. I'm sure it's harder than it looks - a line I imagine Leon will have heard before.
    That would be quite the experiment!

    But I must be away. My gym beckons and the frisson will be building down there as they await.

    Then a G&T or three and as for this evening - who knows? It's a blank canvas on which I have yet to lay my brush.

    Brace.

    And Laters. :smile:
    I nominate this for the Worst Leon Impression Ever. And I should know, having endured @LadyG and @Mysticrose
    Indeed, for true authenticity it would have to have an 'and another thing' post five minutes later.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 11,069

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    https://twitter.com/KayBurley/status/1559098922697728001

    Can Liz Truss provide evidence to back her suggestion there is "woke" culture in the civil service that "strays into antisemitism"? We asked @BrandonLewis 👇👇 #KayBurley wx

    This was a fucking disgraceful allegation from Truss - and shows she is continuity Johnson. She is a liar.

    There's definitely Woke culture in public infrastructure projects.

    My client is holding a "power games" in Regent's Park on Wednesday evening hosted by the Unite for Race Equality network.

    Have a guess as to how they'll play that.
    Provide evidence there is widespread anti-Semitism in the Civil Service, she used the Jewish Community to further her political agenda.

    Anti-Semitism is something we all take seriously when it is founded. Instead she made the allegation then immediately ran away.

    She is an absolute disgrace - and this has made it clear for me. I will never vote Tory whilst anyone associated with her is in a position of power.
    They are going to hold "egg and spoon" races, and other fun outdoor classics, but ensure that one's starting position in these races is handicapped depending on what "group" you are in - because there must always be an identity politics lesson to be imbibed. Never just neutral fun teambuilding.

    For clarity, that means that a white male I would have to start behind others in the race - probably at the back - and that's the intersectionality lecture delivered.

    That is Wokery and it goes on *all the time*.

    At some point this is going to directly collide with my career ambitions, as I personally cannot abide it but, for now, I will have a "prior engagement" that unfortunately cannot get out of.
    Is that really what they do?!

    Jesus f Christ

    Is this private or public sector?
    The thought of Casino having to start behind in an egg & spoon race in Regents Park because he's white - this is surely an uncalled for humiliation to rank right alongside those caused by the structural racism it is meant to highlight!
    @Casino_Royale should just tell them he self-identifies as Indian due to Indian ancestry. What are these fuckers going to do then? Give him a genetic test? Check to see if he wobbles his head? Race is a social construct so it has no reality anyway, as the same Woke cranks keep telling us

    This is the surreal yet inevitable endpoint of Wokeness. Everyone will self identify as African and gay so they can be first in the company egg and spoon race
    Yada yada.

    The relationship between you and this topic - structural racism - is an odd one indeed. It's a widely acknowledged complex problem but rather than take a pass on it - as posters do all the time on things which either don’t interest them or they can’t get their heads around – what happens is you get angry at the mere mention of it, lashing out at those who take it seriously, risibly making out that to talk about White Privilege is some mortal threat to civilisation, or in lighter vein (which isn’t actually that light) erupting into spasms of “oh god what do we call them this week then?” jocularity, seeking to trivialize the whole thing.

    The term White Fragility is one I realize irritates but tough titty because it also nails a certain specific mindset and set of attitudes and we have living proof of its acuity right here.
    So structural racism is a real problem, but straying into antisemitism is a vile lie?

    Jews don't count.
    Return to sender. Poster who said "accusations of antisemitism are always a vile lie" unknown.
    I didn't say always.

    On this thread @Theuniondivvie @Northern_Al @CorrectHorseBattery and yourself have all angrily suggested that straying into antisemitism as alleged by Truss was a lie.

    Meanwhile you're banging on about "Fragility" and "structural" racism.

    Who is the "Fragile" one really, when comments as mild as Trusses about "straying into" racism attract such vitriol?

    Racism is Structural against every race apart from Jews it seems?

    Which is it, is structural racism real including against Jews, or is racism real but uniquely Jews don't count?
    Now mr @moonshine - see this here IS a "word salad".

    Genuinely hard to extract any sense from it but for the record and please save this tweet:

    Racism - 'structural' or otherwise - exists and it includes antisemitism and it's a bad thing.
    So we're getting somewhere. Structural racism, including antisemitism exists - that is now your opinion.

    In which case, surely what Truss said was eminently reasonable that antisemitism needs tackling [just as any other racism does too] and so can you acknowledge the logical end point of your train of thought and criticise the "Fragility" of those opposing what Truss said?
    You still appear to be ignoring what Truss said. Your position rests on pretending Truss said something she didn’t. She made a specific claim that “woke” civil service culture “strays into antisemitism”.

    In the same speech, she characterised Jewish culture in ways that some feel were stereotyping.

    The most detailed write-up of her comments that I can find is https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/aug/12/liz-truss-protect-british-jews-antisemitism-woke-culture
    Absolutely and "woke" civil service culture does indeed stray into antisemitism, just as almost any "woke" rally of any kind will inevitably have antisemitic placards being waved too. She was entirely correct in everything she wrote, and the Fragile individuals who feel threatened at institutional racism being called out should get over their own Fragility.

    Have I got that right, Kinabalu?
    I can't separate your attempt at humour from the point you are making. Do you have any evidence of "woke civil service culture" straying into antisemitism?
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,863
    You can never have enough dog pics
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,313

    Today I am Leon. How does it feel, you ask. INCREDIBLE. Slightly tipsy, like I've over-indulged on a fine breakfast retsina on one of the more interesting Greek islands. Not one that you lot would know about, because you are so incredibly STUPID. Even thinking about you trying to go there is so hideous and boring, eugh get rid

    Here is the picture from the balcony

    Greece of course is home to the Enlightenment, which is my favourite thing apart from SEX. Soon to be consigned to history by the crazed woke left of the cultural Marxist politically correct brigade. They won't be happy until everyone has their own pronoun and all the HOT TEENS self-identity as Chairman Mao or a dog and all the statues of white men have been melted down to make egg cups for Muslim rape gangs. It's quite sad really that you can't see this

    I could continue, just to enrage all the bitter remoaners of the hideous woke left who keep losing elections because they are FUCKING MORONS but also control everything and need to be purged. But it's getting boring and so Get Tae Fuck

    Personally, I think that's better than @NickPalmer's. More verve. IMHO


  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,431
    Two off topics.
    1. It's just started thundering here; no sign of rain but there are rumbles around.

    2. Someone asked up-thread why, if God loved the Jews why the Arabs had all the oil? I understand the reason is that when Moses crossed the Red Sea he turned to the Israelites and said "Turn left"; if they'd turned right……

  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,963
    Sean_F said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Cyclefree said:

    kinabalu said:

    Mr. Leon/Mr. kinabalu, indoctrinating children into this nonsense is rather more alarming than some seem to think.

    As this video rather shows:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1I3wJ7pJUjg

    I really do think that children can have an appreciation of the racist legacy of western colonialism - inc the notion of white privilege - without becoming so crippled with personal guilt that they can't tie their own shoelaces.
    They shouldn't feel or be taught any personal guilt whatsoever. The sins of the fathers or, in this case, the multiple great-grandfathers, are not visited on the sons. This was the whole basis of Christian anti-semitism. It was wrong when applied to Jews. It is wrong when applied to people now who have no responsibility whatsoever for what people in previous centuries did or did not do.
    True but only 50% of the picture. Black people have no right to white guilt but they do have a right to the truth; there is a reason why holocaust denial is a crime. Slavery denial OTOH is routine, because its victims are a bit smaller and further away, and harder to see in the dark. It was the defining institution of its age and the basis of the rise of this country and the USA to world domination. Lying about this is wrong.
    There are people in the USA who will argue that slavery was a benign institution. I don't think there's anyone (outside of the lunatic fringe) who would argue that in the UK.
    Well..

    'The much-anticipated report from the Commission on Race and Ethnic Disparities says that there is “a new story about the Caribbean experience which speaks to the slave period not only being about profit and suffering but how culturally African people transformed themselves into a re-modelled African/Britain.”'

    https://tinyurl.com/2p9ext2y
  • IncorrectHorseBIncorrectHorseB Posts: 20
    edited August 2022
    I'm a long-time lurker and a first time poster. What a great website this is.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 11,069
    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    kinabalu said:

    Mr. Leon/Mr. kinabalu, indoctrinating children into this nonsense is rather more alarming than some seem to think.

    As this video rather shows:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1I3wJ7pJUjg

    I really do think that children can have an appreciation of the racist legacy of western colonialism - inc the notion of white privilege - without becoming so crippled with personal guilt that they can't tie their own shoelaces.
    They shouldn't feel or be taught any personal guilt whatsoever. The sins of the fathers or, in this case, the multiple great-grandfathers, are not visited on the sons. This was the whole basis of Christian anti-semitism. It was wrong when applied to Jews. It is wrong when applied to people now who have no responsibility whatsoever for what people in previous centuries did or did not do.
    Indeed. The classic response is, of course, that they are enjoying the fruits of the sins of the (great … great grand) fathers.
    They may or may not be. But then the descendants of the slaves may also be benefiting - even if that was not the intention - from what happened to their ancestors. The point is that we cannot turn the clock back to what life would be now in numerous countries had slavery (or another evil) not happened. So all we can do is learn about the history and try to do better now and in the future. But making people now feel guilt over the actions of others is a no-no. As is ascribing some sort of superior moral worth to people because of who their ancestors may have been.

    We are responsible for our own actions and failures to act. Not those of the long dead. Getting people to accept and act on this apparently simple precept is quite hard enough without expecting them to bear the moral burden of the actions of others.
    Great. So let's teach the history that happened, rather than the nostalgic fairy stories that the likes of Boris, Liz and JRM want.
  • IanB2 said:

    You can never have enough dog pics

    Talking of dogs someone took their dog up Snowdon yesterday and its paws were so burnt the mountain rescue team had to evacuate the dog from the summit

    How could any dog owner be so cruel
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,072

    BJO has had an absolute mare today. Linking to the Twitter homepage :D

    I spent a good 30mins trying to work out his subtle message.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,863

    I'm a long-time lurker and a first time poster. What a great website this is.

    Hello Sean.
  • Got that thing where I know Truss is going to win but I can't bring myself to heavily expose myself on Rishi for the sake of an extra £200-£300.

    I will regret this decision in 3 weeks.

    Three hustings this week might be Rishi's last chance to turn things round.
  • londonpubmanlondonpubman Posts: 3,639

    Got that thing where I know Truss is going to win but I can't bring myself to heavily expose myself on Rishi for the sake of an extra £200-£300.

    I will regret this decision in 3 weeks.

    Three hustings this week might be Rishi's last chance to turn things round.
    Rishi needs to offer free energy for 5 years to do this!
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,397

    Got that thing where I know Truss is going to win but I can't bring myself to heavily expose myself on Rishi for the sake of an extra £200-£300.

    I will regret this decision in 3 weeks.

    Three hustings this week might be Rishi's last chance to turn things round.
    Given the numbers who have voted Truss' sudden death is the only thing that will change the race now.
  • kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    https://twitter.com/KayBurley/status/1559098922697728001

    Can Liz Truss provide evidence to back her suggestion there is "woke" culture in the civil service that "strays into antisemitism"? We asked @BrandonLewis 👇👇 #KayBurley wx

    This was a fucking disgraceful allegation from Truss - and shows she is continuity Johnson. She is a liar.

    There's definitely Woke culture in public infrastructure projects.

    My client is holding a "power games" in Regent's Park on Wednesday evening hosted by the Unite for Race Equality network.

    Have a guess as to how they'll play that.
    Provide evidence there is widespread anti-Semitism in the Civil Service, she used the Jewish Community to further her political agenda.

    Anti-Semitism is something we all take seriously when it is founded. Instead she made the allegation then immediately ran away.

    She is an absolute disgrace - and this has made it clear for me. I will never vote Tory whilst anyone associated with her is in a position of power.
    They are going to hold "egg and spoon" races, and other fun outdoor classics, but ensure that one's starting position in these races is handicapped depending on what "group" you are in - because there must always be an identity politics lesson to be imbibed. Never just neutral fun teambuilding.

    For clarity, that means that a white male I would have to start behind others in the race - probably at the back - and that's the intersectionality lecture delivered.

    That is Wokery and it goes on *all the time*.

    At some point this is going to directly collide with my career ambitions, as I personally cannot abide it but, for now, I will have a "prior engagement" that unfortunately cannot get out of.
    Is that really what they do?!

    Jesus f Christ

    Is this private or public sector?
    The thought of Casino having to start behind in an egg & spoon race in Regents Park because he's white - this is surely an uncalled for humiliation to rank right alongside those caused by the structural racism it is meant to highlight!
    @Casino_Royale should just tell them he self-identifies as Indian due to Indian ancestry. What are these fuckers going to do then? Give him a genetic test? Check to see if he wobbles his head? Race is a social construct so it has no reality anyway, as the same Woke cranks keep telling us

    This is the surreal yet inevitable endpoint of Wokeness. Everyone will self identify as African and gay so they can be first in the company egg and spoon race
    Yada yada.

    The relationship between you and this topic - structural racism - is an odd one indeed. It's a widely acknowledged complex problem but rather than take a pass on it - as posters do all the time on things which either don’t interest them or they can’t get their heads around – what happens is you get angry at the mere mention of it, lashing out at those who take it seriously, risibly making out that to talk about White Privilege is some mortal threat to civilisation, or in lighter vein (which isn’t actually that light) erupting into spasms of “oh god what do we call them this week then?” jocularity, seeking to trivialize the whole thing.

    The term White Fragility is one I realize irritates but tough titty because it also nails a certain specific mindset and set of attitudes and we have living proof of its acuity right here.
    So structural racism is a real problem, but straying into antisemitism is a vile lie?

    Jews don't count.
    Return to sender. Poster who said "accusations of antisemitism are always a vile lie" unknown.
    I didn't say always.

    On this thread @Theuniondivvie @Northern_Al @CorrectHorseBattery and yourself have all angrily suggested that straying into antisemitism as alleged by Truss was a lie.

    Meanwhile you're banging on about "Fragility" and "structural" racism.

    Who is the "Fragile" one really, when comments as mild as Trusses about "straying into" racism attract such vitriol?

    Racism is Structural against every race apart from Jews it seems?

    Which is it, is structural racism real including against Jews, or is racism real but uniquely Jews don't count?
    Now mr @moonshine - see this here IS a "word salad".

    Genuinely hard to extract any sense from it but for the record and please save this tweet:

    Racism - 'structural' or otherwise - exists and it includes antisemitism and it's a bad thing.
    So we're getting somewhere. Structural racism, including antisemitism exists - that is now your opinion.

    In which case, surely what Truss said was eminently reasonable that antisemitism needs tackling [just as any other racism does too] and so can you acknowledge the logical end point of your train of thought and criticise the "Fragility" of those opposing what Truss said?
    You still appear to be ignoring what Truss said. Your position rests on pretending Truss said something she didn’t. She made a specific claim that “woke” civil service culture “strays into antisemitism”.

    In the same speech, she characterised Jewish culture in ways that some feel were stereotyping.

    The most detailed write-up of her comments that I can find is https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/aug/12/liz-truss-protect-british-jews-antisemitism-woke-culture
    Absolutely and "woke" civil service culture does indeed stray into antisemitism, just as almost any "woke" rally of any kind will inevitably have antisemitic placards being waved too. She was entirely correct in everything she wrote, and the Fragile individuals who feel threatened at institutional racism being called out should get over their own Fragility.

    Have I got that right, Kinabalu?
    I can't separate your attempt at humour from the point you are making. Do you have any evidence of "woke civil service culture" straying into antisemitism?
    There's three examples so far been given in this thread, its up to others to argue how credible they find these complaints or not, but in general supposedly complaints about racism are supposed to be taken at the utmost level of seriousness and not be dismissed out of hand as "lies" by those who are offended by the allegations.

    1. Foreign Office antisemitism that had to be pushed back against (example given by Brandon Lewis in the clip earlier).
    2. Attempts to ban Kosher food from sale in NI (example given by Brandon Lewis in the clip earlier).
    3. 'BDS' policies where they are instituted (example given by Truss herself).

    3 examples. Now are you so confident that none of those examples ever strays into antisemitism, in any circumstances, or do you think that it is perhaps possible that sometimes it strays into antisemitism?
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,310

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    kinabalu said:

    Mr. Leon/Mr. kinabalu, indoctrinating children into this nonsense is rather more alarming than some seem to think.

    As this video rather shows:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1I3wJ7pJUjg

    I really do think that children can have an appreciation of the racist legacy of western colonialism - inc the notion of white privilege - without becoming so crippled with personal guilt that they can't tie their own shoelaces.
    They shouldn't feel or be taught any personal guilt whatsoever. The sins of the fathers or, in this case, the multiple great-grandfathers, are not visited on the sons. This was the whole basis of Christian anti-semitism. It was wrong when applied to Jews. It is wrong when applied to people now who have no responsibility whatsoever for what people in previous centuries did or did not do.
    Indeed. The classic response is, of course, that they are enjoying the fruits of the sins of the (great … great grand) fathers.
    They may or may not be. But then the descendants of the slaves may also be benefiting - even if that was not the intention - from what happened to their ancestors. The point is that we cannot turn the clock back to what life would be now in numerous countries had slavery (or another evil) not happened. So all we can do is learn about the history and try to do better now and in the future. But making people now feel guilt over the actions of others is a no-no. As is ascribing some sort of superior moral worth to people because of who their ancestors may have been.

    We are responsible for our own actions and failures to act. Not those of the long dead. Getting people to accept and act on this apparently simple precept is quite hard enough without expecting them to bear the moral burden of the actions of others.
    Great. So let's teach the history that happened, rather than the nostalgic fairy stories that the likes of Boris, Liz and JRM want.
    I agree. I am 100% in favour of really good history teaching.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 11,069
    IanB2 said:

    You can never have enough dog pics

    I passed by the grave of Charles Cruft yesterday. His wife said he actually preferred cats.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,397

    IanB2 said:

    You can never have enough dog pics

    I passed by the grave of Charles Cruft yesterday. His wife said he actually preferred cats.
    *Nobly refrains from punning on what she might actually have said*
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,567

    Removal vans outside number 10

    For Boris - or just Carrie?
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,957

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    https://twitter.com/KayBurley/status/1559098922697728001

    Can Liz Truss provide evidence to back her suggestion there is "woke" culture in the civil service that "strays into antisemitism"? We asked @BrandonLewis 👇👇 #KayBurley wx

    This was a fucking disgraceful allegation from Truss - and shows she is continuity Johnson. She is a liar.

    There's definitely Woke culture in public infrastructure projects.

    My client is holding a "power games" in Regent's Park on Wednesday evening hosted by the Unite for Race Equality network.

    Have a guess as to how they'll play that.
    Provide evidence there is widespread anti-Semitism in the Civil Service, she used the Jewish Community to further her political agenda.

    Anti-Semitism is something we all take seriously when it is founded. Instead she made the allegation then immediately ran away.

    She is an absolute disgrace - and this has made it clear for me. I will never vote Tory whilst anyone associated with her is in a position of power.
    They are going to hold "egg and spoon" races, and other fun outdoor classics, but ensure that one's starting position in these races is handicapped depending on what "group" you are in - because there must always be an identity politics lesson to be imbibed. Never just neutral fun teambuilding.

    For clarity, that means that a white male I would have to start behind others in the race - probably at the back - and that's the intersectionality lecture delivered.

    That is Wokery and it goes on *all the time*.

    At some point this is going to directly collide with my career ambitions, as I personally cannot abide it but, for now, I will have a "prior engagement" that unfortunately cannot get out of.
    Is that really what they do?!

    Jesus f Christ

    Is this private or public sector?
    The thought of Casino having to start behind in an egg & spoon race in Regents Park because he's white - this is surely an uncalled for humiliation to rank right alongside those caused by the structural racism it is meant to highlight!
    @Casino_Royale should just tell them he self-identifies as Indian due to Indian ancestry. What are these fuckers going to do then? Give him a genetic test? Check to see if he wobbles his head? Race is a social construct so it has no reality anyway, as the same Woke cranks keep telling us

    This is the surreal yet inevitable endpoint of Wokeness. Everyone will self identify as African and gay so they can be first in the company egg and spoon race
    Yada yada.

    The relationship between you and this topic - structural racism - is an odd one indeed. It's a widely acknowledged complex problem but rather than take a pass on it - as posters do all the time on things which either don’t interest them or they can’t get their heads around – what happens is you get angry at the mere mention of it, lashing out at those who take it seriously, risibly making out that to talk about White Privilege is some mortal threat to civilisation, or in lighter vein (which isn’t actually that light) erupting into spasms of “oh god what do we call them this week then?” jocularity, seeking to trivialize the whole thing.

    The term White Fragility is one I realize irritates but tough titty because it also nails a certain specific mindset and set of attitudes and we have living proof of its acuity right here.
    So structural racism is a real problem, but straying into antisemitism is a vile lie?

    Jews don't count.
    Return to sender. Poster who said "accusations of antisemitism are always a vile lie" unknown.
    I didn't say always.

    On this thread @Theuniondivvie @Northern_Al @CorrectHorseBattery and yourself have all angrily suggested that straying into antisemitism as alleged by Truss was a lie.

    Meanwhile you're banging on about "Fragility" and "structural" racism.

    Who is the "Fragile" one really, when comments as mild as Trusses about "straying into" racism attract such vitriol?

    Racism is Structural against every race apart from Jews it seems?

    Which is it, is structural racism real including against Jews, or is racism real but uniquely Jews don't count?
    Now mr @moonshine - see this here IS a "word salad".

    Genuinely hard to extract any sense from it but for the record and please save this tweet:

    Racism - 'structural' or otherwise - exists and it includes antisemitism and it's a bad thing.
    So we're getting somewhere. Structural racism, including antisemitism exists - that is now your opinion.

    In which case, surely what Truss said was eminently reasonable that antisemitism needs tackling [just as any other racism does too] and so can you acknowledge the logical end point of your train of thought and criticise the "Fragility" of those opposing what Truss said?
    You still appear to be ignoring what Truss said. Your position rests on pretending Truss said something she didn’t. She made a specific claim that “woke” civil service culture “strays into antisemitism”.

    In the same speech, she characterised Jewish culture in ways that some feel were stereotyping.

    The most detailed write-up of her comments that I can find is https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/aug/12/liz-truss-protect-british-jews-antisemitism-woke-culture
    Absolutely and "woke" civil service culture does indeed stray into antisemitism, just as almost any "woke" rally of any kind will inevitably have antisemitic placards being waved too. She was entirely correct in everything she wrote, and the Fragile individuals who feel threatened at institutional racism being called out should get over their own Fragility.

    Have I got that right, Kinabalu?
    I can't separate your attempt at humour from the point you are making. Do you have any evidence of "woke civil service culture" straying into antisemitism?
    He doesn't need any evidence. It is unconscious.
  • IanB2 said:

    I'm a long-time lurker and a first time poster. What a great website this is.

    Hello Sean.
    I am not familiar with this "Sean", I am just an old boy from the North of Scotland, I spent many years in the Civil Service until it became too woke for my liking so I left.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,397

    IanB2 said:

    I'm a long-time lurker and a first time poster. What a great website this is.

    Hello Sean.
    I am not familiar with this "Sean", I am just an old boy from the North of Scotland, I spent many years in the Civil Service until it became too woke for my liking so I left.
    You weren't in the DfE then, because they're not woke, they're really dozy.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,269

    IanB2 said:

    You can never have enough dog pics

    Talking of dogs someone took their dog up Snowdon yesterday and its paws were so burnt the mountain rescue team had to evacuate the dog from the summit

    How could any dog owner be so cruel
    A question. Was out rowing on the weekend. Idiot threw a stick into the river for his dog, in front of us. Dog charged in of course - some kind of small terrier. We did a crash stop - dig the blades in.

    The dog was on an incredibly long one of those reel in leads. Being the tidal Thames, the dog got swept past the boat and tangled up. Managed to untangle…

    Am I right in thinking that having a dog on lead like that when it goes swimming is pretty dangerous for the dog?
  • "Sean" sounds like a fantastic guy though, does he not post any more? I have noticed this site fall into wokeism very rapidly which is sad to see. I sometimes travel through Waterloo Station and see these awful signs telling me not to be racist. I find this difficult because actually I am racist. I also hate women.

    I've many times ranted to the SWR Twitter account, they have blocked me which is just the latest round of cancel culture. Really is despicable.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,567

    From here, please can we just ignore the poster called Leon and we'll all be much happier. Stop quoting him and stop responding to him, he'll get bored.

    No.

    We won't all be much happier. You will.

    And making you happy isn't worth the loss of lunch pictures from around the globe.

    Soz n that.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,840
    ydoethur said:

    IanB2 said:

    You can never have enough dog pics

    I passed by the grave of Charles Cruft yesterday. His wife said he actually preferred cats.
    *Nobly refrains from punning on what she might actually have said*
    Talking about cats -

    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/aug/14/cats-kill-birds-wildlife-keep-indoors

    Amongst the usual holocaust on wildlife and other issues, there is an interesting argument that cats are a much bigger animal welfare problem than culling badgers or hunting foxes on horseback.
  • ydoethur said:

    Got that thing where I know Truss is going to win but I can't bring myself to heavily expose myself on Rishi for the sake of an extra £200-£300.

    I will regret this decision in 3 weeks.

    Three hustings this week might be Rishi's last chance to turn things round.
    Given the numbers who have voted Truss' sudden death is the only thing that will change the race now.
    Indeed. If as reasonably estimated 80% of votes have already been cast at approximately 2:1 for Truss, then she's already got 53% of the vote.

    Either the estimates are miles off, or this is all over bar the counting already.
  • kyf_100kyf_100 Posts: 4,945
    edited August 2022
    Labour's latest energy price freeze proposal will cost £73bn a year

    Useful comparison chart to other proposals here -

    https://twitter.com/DrSimEvans/status/1559166816580239360
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,567
    ydoethur said:

    IanB2 said:

    You can never have enough dog pics

    I passed by the grave of Charles Cruft yesterday. His wife said he actually preferred cats.
    *Nobly refrains from punning on what she might actually have said*
    Mrs Slocombe died in vain then.....
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,957

    ydoethur said:

    Got that thing where I know Truss is going to win but I can't bring myself to heavily expose myself on Rishi for the sake of an extra £200-£300.

    I will regret this decision in 3 weeks.

    Three hustings this week might be Rishi's last chance to turn things round.
    Given the numbers who have voted Truss' sudden death is the only thing that will change the race now.
    Indeed. If as reasonably estimated 80% of votes have already been cast at approximately 2:1 for Truss, then she's already got 53% of the vote.

    Either the estimates are miles off, or this is all over bar the counting already.
    Your sympathy to the jewish people extends to your vocabulary and posting style.

    :smile:
  • From here, please can we just ignore the poster called Leon and we'll all be much happier. Stop quoting him and stop responding to him, he'll get bored.

    No.

    We won't all be much happier. You will.

    And making you happy isn't worth the loss of lunch pictures from around the globe.

    Soz n that.
    Well said, Leon is a fine poster, the cancel culture against him is just disgraceful.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 11,069
    edited August 2022

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    https://twitter.com/KayBurley/status/1559098922697728001

    Can Liz Truss provide evidence to back her suggestion there is "woke" culture in the civil service that "strays into antisemitism"? We asked @BrandonLewis 👇👇 #KayBurley wx

    This was a fucking disgraceful allegation from Truss - and shows she is continuity Johnson. She is a liar.

    There's definitely Woke culture in public infrastructure projects.

    My client is holding a "power games" in Regent's Park on Wednesday evening hosted by the Unite for Race Equality network.

    Have a guess as to how they'll play that.
    Provide evidence there is widespread anti-Semitism in the Civil Service, she used the Jewish Community to further her political agenda.

    Anti-Semitism is something we all take seriously when it is founded. Instead she made the allegation then immediately ran away.

    She is an absolute disgrace - and this has made it clear for me. I will never vote Tory whilst anyone associated with her is in a position of power.
    They are going to hold "egg and spoon" races, and other fun outdoor classics, but ensure that one's starting position in these races is handicapped depending on what "group" you are in - because there must always be an identity politics lesson to be imbibed. Never just neutral fun teambuilding.

    For clarity, that means that a white male I would have to start behind others in the race - probably at the back - and that's the intersectionality lecture delivered.

    That is Wokery and it goes on *all the time*.

    At some point this is going to directly collide with my career ambitions, as I personally cannot abide it but, for now, I will have a "prior engagement" that unfortunately cannot get out of.
    Is that really what they do?!

    Jesus f Christ

    Is this private or public sector?
    The thought of Casino having to start behind in an egg & spoon race in Regents Park because he's white - this is surely an uncalled for humiliation to rank right alongside those caused by the structural racism it is meant to highlight!
    @Casino_Royale should just tell them he self-identifies as Indian due to Indian ancestry. What are these fuckers going to do then? Give him a genetic test? Check to see if he wobbles his head? Race is a social construct so it has no reality anyway, as the same Woke cranks keep telling us

    This is the surreal yet inevitable endpoint of Wokeness. Everyone will self identify as African and gay so they can be first in the company egg and spoon race
    Yada yada.

    The relationship between you and this topic - structural racism - is an odd one indeed. It's a widely acknowledged complex problem but rather than take a pass on it - as posters do all the time on things which either don’t interest them or they can’t get their heads around – what happens is you get angry at the mere mention of it, lashing out at those who take it seriously, risibly making out that to talk about White Privilege is some mortal threat to civilisation, or in lighter vein (which isn’t actually that light) erupting into spasms of “oh god what do we call them this week then?” jocularity, seeking to trivialize the whole thing.

    The term White Fragility is one I realize irritates but tough titty because it also nails a certain specific mindset and set of attitudes and we have living proof of its acuity right here.
    So structural racism is a real problem, but straying into antisemitism is a vile lie?

    Jews don't count.
    Return to sender. Poster who said "accusations of antisemitism are always a vile lie" unknown.
    I didn't say always.

    On this thread @Theuniondivvie @Northern_Al @CorrectHorseBattery and yourself have all angrily suggested that straying into antisemitism as alleged by Truss was a lie.

    Meanwhile you're banging on about "Fragility" and "structural" racism.

    Who is the "Fragile" one really, when comments as mild as Trusses about "straying into" racism attract such vitriol?

    Racism is Structural against every race apart from Jews it seems?

    Which is it, is structural racism real including against Jews, or is racism real but uniquely Jews don't count?
    Now mr @moonshine - see this here IS a "word salad".

    Genuinely hard to extract any sense from it but for the record and please save this tweet:

    Racism - 'structural' or otherwise - exists and it includes antisemitism and it's a bad thing.
    So we're getting somewhere. Structural racism, including antisemitism exists - that is now your opinion.

    In which case, surely what Truss said was eminently reasonable that antisemitism needs tackling [just as any other racism does too] and so can you acknowledge the logical end point of your train of thought and criticise the "Fragility" of those opposing what Truss said?
    You still appear to be ignoring what Truss said. Your position rests on pretending Truss said something she didn’t. She made a specific claim that “woke” civil service culture “strays into antisemitism”.

    In the same speech, she characterised Jewish culture in ways that some feel were stereotyping.

    The most detailed write-up of her comments that I can find is https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/aug/12/liz-truss-protect-british-jews-antisemitism-woke-culture
    Absolutely and "woke" civil service culture does indeed stray into antisemitism, just as almost any "woke" rally of any kind will inevitably have antisemitic placards being waved too. She was entirely correct in everything she wrote, and the Fragile individuals who feel threatened at institutional racism being called out should get over their own Fragility.

    Have I got that right, Kinabalu?
    I can't separate your attempt at humour from the point you are making. Do you have any evidence of "woke civil service culture" straying into antisemitism?
    There's three examples so far been given in this thread, its up to others to argue how credible they find these complaints or not, but in general supposedly complaints about racism are supposed to be taken at the utmost level of seriousness and not be dismissed out of hand as "lies" by those who are offended by the allegations.

    1. Foreign Office antisemitism that had to be pushed back against (example given by Brandon Lewis in the clip earlier).
    2. Attempts to ban Kosher food from sale in NI (example given by Brandon Lewis in the clip earlier).
    3. 'BDS' policies where they are instituted (example given by Truss herself).

    3 examples. Now are you so confident that none of those examples ever strays into antisemitism, in any circumstances, or do you think that it is perhaps possible that sometimes it strays into antisemitism?
    Are those examples of "woke civil service culture" straying into antisemitism? To establish that, you need to show that they are or began as "wokeism" and that they stray into antisemitism.

    My apologies, I am coming to the thread late, but Lewis's earlier comments about kosher food in NI had nothing to do with "woke civil service culture". https://www.irishnews.com/news/northernirelandnews/2022/07/18/news/claims_protocol_is_stopping_jewish_people_in_the_north_from_practising_their_religion_branded_as_misleading_-2774372/ fact-checks his earlier comments.

    Edit: to be clear, Lewis is accusing the EU of antisemitism. His accusation has nothing to do with civil service culture. His accusation that the EU is being antisemitic is, at best, dubious, but that's beside the point. He's not talking about "woke civil service culture".
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,397

    ydoethur said:

    IanB2 said:

    You can never have enough dog pics

    I passed by the grave of Charles Cruft yesterday. His wife said he actually preferred cats.
    *Nobly refrains from punning on what she might actually have said*
    Mrs Slocombe died in vain then.....
    Possibly, but I wasn't being Sugden.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,957
    Carnyx said:

    ydoethur said:

    IanB2 said:

    You can never have enough dog pics

    I passed by the grave of Charles Cruft yesterday. His wife said he actually preferred cats.
    *Nobly refrains from punning on what she might actually have said*
    Talking about cats -

    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/aug/14/cats-kill-birds-wildlife-keep-indoors

    Amongst the usual holocaust on wildlife and other issues, there is an interesting argument that cats are a much bigger animal welfare problem than culling badgers or hunting foxes on horseback.
    As we're on the subject, that is an interesting use of the word "holocaust". Is it to denote something from the animal kingdom?
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,957

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    https://twitter.com/KayBurley/status/1559098922697728001

    Can Liz Truss provide evidence to back her suggestion there is "woke" culture in the civil service that "strays into antisemitism"? We asked @BrandonLewis 👇👇 #KayBurley wx

    This was a fucking disgraceful allegation from Truss - and shows she is continuity Johnson. She is a liar.

    There's definitely Woke culture in public infrastructure projects.

    My client is holding a "power games" in Regent's Park on Wednesday evening hosted by the Unite for Race Equality network.

    Have a guess as to how they'll play that.
    Provide evidence there is widespread anti-Semitism in the Civil Service, she used the Jewish Community to further her political agenda.

    Anti-Semitism is something we all take seriously when it is founded. Instead she made the allegation then immediately ran away.

    She is an absolute disgrace - and this has made it clear for me. I will never vote Tory whilst anyone associated with her is in a position of power.
    They are going to hold "egg and spoon" races, and other fun outdoor classics, but ensure that one's starting position in these races is handicapped depending on what "group" you are in - because there must always be an identity politics lesson to be imbibed. Never just neutral fun teambuilding.

    For clarity, that means that a white male I would have to start behind others in the race - probably at the back - and that's the intersectionality lecture delivered.

    That is Wokery and it goes on *all the time*.

    At some point this is going to directly collide with my career ambitions, as I personally cannot abide it but, for now, I will have a "prior engagement" that unfortunately cannot get out of.
    Is that really what they do?!

    Jesus f Christ

    Is this private or public sector?
    The thought of Casino having to start behind in an egg & spoon race in Regents Park because he's white - this is surely an uncalled for humiliation to rank right alongside those caused by the structural racism it is meant to highlight!
    @Casino_Royale should just tell them he self-identifies as Indian due to Indian ancestry. What are these fuckers going to do then? Give him a genetic test? Check to see if he wobbles his head? Race is a social construct so it has no reality anyway, as the same Woke cranks keep telling us

    This is the surreal yet inevitable endpoint of Wokeness. Everyone will self identify as African and gay so they can be first in the company egg and spoon race
    Yada yada.

    The relationship between you and this topic - structural racism - is an odd one indeed. It's a widely acknowledged complex problem but rather than take a pass on it - as posters do all the time on things which either don’t interest them or they can’t get their heads around – what happens is you get angry at the mere mention of it, lashing out at those who take it seriously, risibly making out that to talk about White Privilege is some mortal threat to civilisation, or in lighter vein (which isn’t actually that light) erupting into spasms of “oh god what do we call them this week then?” jocularity, seeking to trivialize the whole thing.

    The term White Fragility is one I realize irritates but tough titty because it also nails a certain specific mindset and set of attitudes and we have living proof of its acuity right here.
    So structural racism is a real problem, but straying into antisemitism is a vile lie?

    Jews don't count.
    Return to sender. Poster who said "accusations of antisemitism are always a vile lie" unknown.
    I didn't say always.

    On this thread @Theuniondivvie @Northern_Al @CorrectHorseBattery and yourself have all angrily suggested that straying into antisemitism as alleged by Truss was a lie.

    Meanwhile you're banging on about "Fragility" and "structural" racism.

    Who is the "Fragile" one really, when comments as mild as Trusses about "straying into" racism attract such vitriol?

    Racism is Structural against every race apart from Jews it seems?

    Which is it, is structural racism real including against Jews, or is racism real but uniquely Jews don't count?
    Now mr @moonshine - see this here IS a "word salad".

    Genuinely hard to extract any sense from it but for the record and please save this tweet:

    Racism - 'structural' or otherwise - exists and it includes antisemitism and it's a bad thing.
    So we're getting somewhere. Structural racism, including antisemitism exists - that is now your opinion.

    In which case, surely what Truss said was eminently reasonable that antisemitism needs tackling [just as any other racism does too] and so can you acknowledge the logical end point of your train of thought and criticise the "Fragility" of those opposing what Truss said?
    You still appear to be ignoring what Truss said. Your position rests on pretending Truss said something she didn’t. She made a specific claim that “woke” civil service culture “strays into antisemitism”.

    In the same speech, she characterised Jewish culture in ways that some feel were stereotyping.

    The most detailed write-up of her comments that I can find is https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/aug/12/liz-truss-protect-british-jews-antisemitism-woke-culture
    Absolutely and "woke" civil service culture does indeed stray into antisemitism, just as almost any "woke" rally of any kind will inevitably have antisemitic placards being waved too. She was entirely correct in everything she wrote, and the Fragile individuals who feel threatened at institutional racism being called out should get over their own Fragility.

    Have I got that right, Kinabalu?
    I can't separate your attempt at humour from the point you are making. Do you have any evidence of "woke civil service culture" straying into antisemitism?
    There's three examples so far been given in this thread, its up to others to argue how credible they find these complaints or not, but in general supposedly complaints about racism are supposed to be taken at the utmost level of seriousness and not be dismissed out of hand as "lies" by those who are offended by the allegations.

    1. Foreign Office antisemitism that had to be pushed back against (example given by Brandon Lewis in the clip earlier).
    2. Attempts to ban Kosher food from sale in NI (example given by Brandon Lewis in the clip earlier).
    3. 'BDS' policies where they are instituted (example given by Truss herself).

    3 examples. Now are you so confident that none of those examples ever strays into antisemitism, in any circumstances, or do you think that it is perhaps possible that sometimes it strays into antisemitism?
    Are those examples of "woke civil service culture" straying into antisemitism? To establish that, you need to show that they are or began as "wokeism" and that they stray into antisemitism.

    My apologies, I am coming to the thread late, but Lewis's earlier comments about kosher food in NI had nothing to do with "woke civil service culture". https://www.irishnews.com/news/northernirelandnews/2022/07/18/news/claims_protocol_is_stopping_jewish_people_in_the_north_from_practising_their_religion_branded_as_misleading_-2774372/ fact-checks his earlier comments.
    Yes you did come a bit late. We agreed that everyone can be and as far as some people are concerned absolutely are unconsciously racist and the Civil Service is no different. Hence irregardless of "evidence" it should accept that it is racist and make amends.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,567
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    IanB2 said:

    You can never have enough dog pics

    I passed by the grave of Charles Cruft yesterday. His wife said he actually preferred cats.
    *Nobly refrains from punning on what she might actually have said*
    Mrs Slocombe died in vain then.....
    Possibly, but I wasn't being Sugden.
    Mr. Humphreys, on the other hand.....
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 21,989
    edited August 2022

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    https://twitter.com/KayBurley/status/1559098922697728001

    Can Liz Truss provide evidence to back her suggestion there is "woke" culture in the civil service that "strays into antisemitism"? We asked @BrandonLewis 👇👇 #KayBurley wx

    This was a fucking disgraceful allegation from Truss - and shows she is continuity Johnson. She is a liar.

    There's definitely Woke culture in public infrastructure projects.

    My client is holding a "power games" in Regent's Park on Wednesday evening hosted by the Unite for Race Equality network.

    Have a guess as to how they'll play that.
    Provide evidence there is widespread anti-Semitism in the Civil Service, she used the Jewish Community to further her political agenda.

    Anti-Semitism is something we all take seriously when it is founded. Instead she made the allegation then immediately ran away.

    She is an absolute disgrace - and this has made it clear for me. I will never vote Tory whilst anyone associated with her is in a position of power.
    They are going to hold "egg and spoon" races, and other fun outdoor classics, but ensure that one's starting position in these races is handicapped depending on what "group" you are in - because there must always be an identity politics lesson to be imbibed. Never just neutral fun teambuilding.

    For clarity, that means that a white male I would have to start behind others in the race - probably at the back - and that's the intersectionality lecture delivered.

    That is Wokery and it goes on *all the time*.

    At some point this is going to directly collide with my career ambitions, as I personally cannot abide it but, for now, I will have a "prior engagement" that unfortunately cannot get out of.
    Is that really what they do?!

    Jesus f Christ

    Is this private or public sector?
    The thought of Casino having to start behind in an egg & spoon race in Regents Park because he's white - this is surely an uncalled for humiliation to rank right alongside those caused by the structural racism it is meant to highlight!
    @Casino_Royale should just tell them he self-identifies as Indian due to Indian ancestry. What are these fuckers going to do then? Give him a genetic test? Check to see if he wobbles his head? Race is a social construct so it has no reality anyway, as the same Woke cranks keep telling us

    This is the surreal yet inevitable endpoint of Wokeness. Everyone will self identify as African and gay so they can be first in the company egg and spoon race
    Yada yada.

    The relationship between you and this topic - structural racism - is an odd one indeed. It's a widely acknowledged complex problem but rather than take a pass on it - as posters do all the time on things which either don’t interest them or they can’t get their heads around – what happens is you get angry at the mere mention of it, lashing out at those who take it seriously, risibly making out that to talk about White Privilege is some mortal threat to civilisation, or in lighter vein (which isn’t actually that light) erupting into spasms of “oh god what do we call them this week then?” jocularity, seeking to trivialize the whole thing.

    The term White Fragility is one I realize irritates but tough titty because it also nails a certain specific mindset and set of attitudes and we have living proof of its acuity right here.
    So structural racism is a real problem, but straying into antisemitism is a vile lie?

    Jews don't count.
    Return to sender. Poster who said "accusations of antisemitism are always a vile lie" unknown.
    I didn't say always.

    On this thread @Theuniondivvie @Northern_Al @CorrectHorseBattery and yourself have all angrily suggested that straying into antisemitism as alleged by Truss was a lie.

    Meanwhile you're banging on about "Fragility" and "structural" racism.

    Who is the "Fragile" one really, when comments as mild as Trusses about "straying into" racism attract such vitriol?

    Racism is Structural against every race apart from Jews it seems?

    Which is it, is structural racism real including against Jews, or is racism real but uniquely Jews don't count?
    Now mr @moonshine - see this here IS a "word salad".

    Genuinely hard to extract any sense from it but for the record and please save this tweet:

    Racism - 'structural' or otherwise - exists and it includes antisemitism and it's a bad thing.
    So we're getting somewhere. Structural racism, including antisemitism exists - that is now your opinion.

    In which case, surely what Truss said was eminently reasonable that antisemitism needs tackling [just as any other racism does too] and so can you acknowledge the logical end point of your train of thought and criticise the "Fragility" of those opposing what Truss said?
    You still appear to be ignoring what Truss said. Your position rests on pretending Truss said something she didn’t. She made a specific claim that “woke” civil service culture “strays into antisemitism”.

    In the same speech, she characterised Jewish culture in ways that some feel were stereotyping.

    The most detailed write-up of her comments that I can find is https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/aug/12/liz-truss-protect-british-jews-antisemitism-woke-culture
    Absolutely and "woke" civil service culture does indeed stray into antisemitism, just as almost any "woke" rally of any kind will inevitably have antisemitic placards being waved too. She was entirely correct in everything she wrote, and the Fragile individuals who feel threatened at institutional racism being called out should get over their own Fragility.

    Have I got that right, Kinabalu?
    I can't separate your attempt at humour from the point you are making. Do you have any evidence of "woke civil service culture" straying into antisemitism?
    There's three examples so far been given in this thread, its up to others to argue how credible they find these complaints or not, but in general supposedly complaints about racism are supposed to be taken at the utmost level of seriousness and not be dismissed out of hand as "lies" by those who are offended by the allegations.

    1. Foreign Office antisemitism that had to be pushed back against (example given by Brandon Lewis in the clip earlier).
    2. Attempts to ban Kosher food from sale in NI (example given by Brandon Lewis in the clip earlier).
    3. 'BDS' policies where they are instituted (example given by Truss herself).

    3 examples. Now are you so confident that none of those examples ever strays into antisemitism, in any circumstances, or do you think that it is perhaps possible that sometimes it strays into antisemitism?
    Are those examples of "woke civil service culture" straying into antisemitism? To establish that, you need to show that they are or began as "wokeism" and that they stray into antisemitism.

    My apologies, I am coming to the thread late, but Lewis's earlier comments about kosher food in NI had nothing to do with "woke civil service culture". https://www.irishnews.com/news/northernirelandnews/2022/07/18/news/claims_protocol_is_stopping_jewish_people_in_the_north_from_practising_their_religion_branded_as_misleading_-2774372/ fact-checks his earlier comments.
    Seems from that own source that Lewis was entirely accurate in saying that it was causing issues for Kosher food and that any attempts to call it "misleading" is a matter of perspective. So yes, Kosher food was an issue, as your own source acknowledges, and I wonder if perhaps a less antisemitic culture had been in place that this issue would have been taken with more seriousness sooner?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,397

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    IanB2 said:

    You can never have enough dog pics

    I passed by the grave of Charles Cruft yesterday. His wife said he actually preferred cats.
    *Nobly refrains from punning on what she might actually have said*
    Mrs Slocombe died in vain then.....
    Possibly, but I wasn't being Sugden.
    Mr. Humphreys, on the other hand.....
    Very much the in man.
  • ALIENS

    Last night through my BEDROOM window I saw a massive light

    SOON they will come down and already the Government is in denial mode

    Not much longer to wait now Area 51 is certainly true
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,840
    edited August 2022
    TOPPING said:

    Carnyx said:

    ydoethur said:

    IanB2 said:

    You can never have enough dog pics

    I passed by the grave of Charles Cruft yesterday. His wife said he actually preferred cats.
    *Nobly refrains from punning on what she might actually have said*
    Talking about cats -

    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/aug/14/cats-kill-birds-wildlife-keep-indoors

    Amongst the usual massacre on wildlife and other issues, there is an interesting argument that cats are a much bigger animal welfare problem than culling badgers or hunting foxes on horseback.
    As we're on the subject, that is an interesting use of the word "holocaust". Is it to denote something from the animal kingdom?
    Was thinking of the old Bible/Greek meaning of a burnt offering/sacrifice, which was of animals, and metaphorically offered in this case to a certain notion of pet keeping. But yes, unfortunate other meaning, so have edited original and this. Apols.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,359
    edited August 2022

    Sean_F said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Cyclefree said:

    kinabalu said:

    Mr. Leon/Mr. kinabalu, indoctrinating children into this nonsense is rather more alarming than some seem to think.

    As this video rather shows:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1I3wJ7pJUjg

    I really do think that children can have an appreciation of the racist legacy of western colonialism - inc the notion of white privilege - without becoming so crippled with personal guilt that they can't tie their own shoelaces.
    They shouldn't feel or be taught any personal guilt whatsoever. The sins of the fathers or, in this case, the multiple great-grandfathers, are not visited on the sons. This was the whole basis of Christian anti-semitism. It was wrong when applied to Jews. It is wrong when applied to people now who have no responsibility whatsoever for what people in previous centuries did or did not do.
    True but only 50% of the picture. Black people have no right to white guilt but they do have a right to the truth; there is a reason why holocaust denial is a crime. Slavery denial OTOH is routine, because its victims are a bit smaller and further away, and harder to see in the dark. It was the defining institution of its age and the basis of the rise of this country and the USA to world domination. Lying about this is wrong.
    There are people in the USA who will argue that slavery was a benign institution. I don't think there's anyone (outside of the lunatic fringe) who would argue that in the UK.
    Well..

    'The much-anticipated report from the Commission on Race and Ethnic Disparities says that there is “a new story about the Caribbean experience which speaks to the slave period not only being about profit and suffering but how culturally African people transformed themselves into a re-modelled African/Britain.”'

    https://tinyurl.com/2p9ext2y
    There is certainly a story to be told about the courage and resilience with which slaves resisted and rebelled against their condition. The debate usually revolves around (a) abolitionists persuaded the British public it was wicked or (b) no such thing, it was just that industrialisation made slavery unprofitable. The bit that gets frequently left out, IMHO, is that every slave revolt or mutiny made the price of maintaining the institution that bit higher.
  • From here, please can we just ignore the poster called Leon and we'll all be much happier. Stop quoting him and stop responding to him, he'll get bored.

    You are one of the most pathetic and boring posters on this site. Are you ever right?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,953
    edited August 2022
    PWC to open up applications from those with 2.2s to improve social mobility and opportunities

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-62547303
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,191
    edited August 2022

    ydoethur said:

    Got that thing where I know Truss is going to win but I can't bring myself to heavily expose myself on Rishi for the sake of an extra £200-£300.

    I will regret this decision in 3 weeks.

    Three hustings this week might be Rishi's last chance to turn things round.
    Given the numbers who have voted Truss' sudden death is the only thing that will change the race now.
    Indeed. If as reasonably estimated 80% of votes have already been cast at approximately 2:1 for Truss, then she's already got 53% of the vote.

    Either the estimates are miles off, or this is all over bar the counting already.
    At the time the Opinium fieldwork was done (8 -> 12th August), Rishi needed 57% of the remaining vote to win.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,953
    edited August 2022
    Iran's state media, reacting to Rushdie's stabbing highlighted the news that Rushdie might lose an eye following the attack, says "an eye of the Satan has been blinded".

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-62546469
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,957
    edited August 2022
    Carnyx said:

    TOPPING said:

    Carnyx said:

    ydoethur said:

    IanB2 said:

    You can never have enough dog pics

    I passed by the grave of Charles Cruft yesterday. His wife said he actually preferred cats.
    *Nobly refrains from punning on what she might actually have said*
    Talking about cats -

    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/aug/14/cats-kill-birds-wildlife-keep-indoors

    Amongst the usual massacre on wildlife and other issues, there is an interesting argument that cats are a much bigger animal welfare problem than culling badgers or hunting foxes on horseback.
    As we're on the subject, that is an interesting use of the word "holocaust". Is it to denote something from the animal kingdom?
    Was thinking of the old Bible/Greek meaning of a burnt offering/sacrifice, which was of animals, and metaphorically offered in this case to a certain notion of pet keeping. But yes, unfortunate other meaning, so have edited original and this. Apols.
    Not offended at all just curious - it was interesting to determine the context/vernacular.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,061
    edited August 2022
    kyf_100 said:

    Labour's latest energy price freeze proposal will cost £73bn a year

    Useful comparison chart to other proposals here -

    https://twitter.com/DrSimEvans/status/1559166816580239360

    73 billion a year to protect the profits of private companies. About 10p on income tax, every year. To protect the profits of private companies.
    Bail out the fucking bankers again while youre at it, they could do with a new city penthouse each
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,957
    HYUFD said:

    PWC to open up applications for those with 2.2s to improve social mobility and opportunities

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-62547303

    Next you'll tell me they will take applications from Harrow as well as Eton and Winchester.
  • SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,773
    kyf_100 said:

    Labour's latest energy price freeze proposal will cost £73bn a year

    Useful comparison chart to other proposals here -

    https://twitter.com/DrSimEvans/status/1559166816580239360

    Bloody hell. That's over things like the entire education budget.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 11,069
    .

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    https://twitter.com/KayBurley/status/1559098922697728001

    Can Liz Truss provide evidence to back her suggestion there is "woke" culture in the civil service that "strays into antisemitism"? We asked @BrandonLewis 👇👇 #KayBurley wx

    This was a fucking disgraceful allegation from Truss - and shows she is continuity Johnson. She is a liar.

    There's definitely Woke culture in public infrastructure projects.

    My client is holding a "power games" in Regent's Park on Wednesday evening hosted by the Unite for Race Equality network.

    Have a guess as to how they'll play that.
    Provide evidence there is widespread anti-Semitism in the Civil Service, she used the Jewish Community to further her political agenda.

    Anti-Semitism is something we all take seriously when it is founded. Instead she made the allegation then immediately ran away.

    She is an absolute disgrace - and this has made it clear for me. I will never vote Tory whilst anyone associated with her is in a position of power.
    They are going to hold "egg and spoon" races, and other fun outdoor classics, but ensure that one's starting position in these races is handicapped depending on what "group" you are in - because there must always be an identity politics lesson to be imbibed. Never just neutral fun teambuilding.

    For clarity, that means that a white male I would have to start behind others in the race - probably at the back - and that's the intersectionality lecture delivered.

    That is Wokery and it goes on *all the time*.

    At some point this is going to directly collide with my career ambitions, as I personally cannot abide it but, for now, I will have a "prior engagement" that unfortunately cannot get out of.
    Is that really what they do?!

    Jesus f Christ

    Is this private or public sector?
    The thought of Casino having to start behind in an egg & spoon race in Regents Park because he's white - this is surely an uncalled for humiliation to rank right alongside those caused by the structural racism it is meant to highlight!
    @Casino_Royale should just tell them he self-identifies as Indian due to Indian ancestry. What are these fuckers going to do then? Give him a genetic test? Check to see if he wobbles his head? Race is a social construct so it has no reality anyway, as the same Woke cranks keep telling us

    This is the surreal yet inevitable endpoint of Wokeness. Everyone will self identify as African and gay so they can be first in the company egg and spoon race
    Yada yada.

    The relationship between you and this topic - structural racism - is an odd one indeed. It's a widely acknowledged complex problem but rather than take a pass on it - as posters do all the time on things which either don’t interest them or they can’t get their heads around – what happens is you get angry at the mere mention of it, lashing out at those who take it seriously, risibly making out that to talk about White Privilege is some mortal threat to civilisation, or in lighter vein (which isn’t actually that light) erupting into spasms of “oh god what do we call them this week then?” jocularity, seeking to trivialize the whole thing.

    The term White Fragility is one I realize irritates but tough titty because it also nails a certain specific mindset and set of attitudes and we have living proof of its acuity right here.
    So structural racism is a real problem, but straying into antisemitism is a vile lie?

    Jews don't count.
    Return to sender. Poster who said "accusations of antisemitism are always a vile lie" unknown.
    I didn't say always.

    On this thread @Theuniondivvie @Northern_Al @CorrectHorseBattery and yourself have all angrily suggested that straying into antisemitism as alleged by Truss was a lie.

    Meanwhile you're banging on about "Fragility" and "structural" racism.

    Who is the "Fragile" one really, when comments as mild as Trusses about "straying into" racism attract such vitriol?

    Racism is Structural against every race apart from Jews it seems?

    Which is it, is structural racism real including against Jews, or is racism real but uniquely Jews don't count?
    Now mr @moonshine - see this here IS a "word salad".

    Genuinely hard to extract any sense from it but for the record and please save this tweet:

    Racism - 'structural' or otherwise - exists and it includes antisemitism and it's a bad thing.
    So we're getting somewhere. Structural racism, including antisemitism exists - that is now your opinion.

    In which case, surely what Truss said was eminently reasonable that antisemitism needs tackling [just as any other racism does too] and so can you acknowledge the logical end point of your train of thought and criticise the "Fragility" of those opposing what Truss said?
    You still appear to be ignoring what Truss said. Your position rests on pretending Truss said something she didn’t. She made a specific claim that “woke” civil service culture “strays into antisemitism”.

    In the same speech, she characterised Jewish culture in ways that some feel were stereotyping.

    The most detailed write-up of her comments that I can find is https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/aug/12/liz-truss-protect-british-jews-antisemitism-woke-culture
    Absolutely and "woke" civil service culture does indeed stray into antisemitism, just as almost any "woke" rally of any kind will inevitably have antisemitic placards being waved too. She was entirely correct in everything she wrote, and the Fragile individuals who feel threatened at institutional racism being called out should get over their own Fragility.

    Have I got that right, Kinabalu?
    I can't separate your attempt at humour from the point you are making. Do you have any evidence of "woke civil service culture" straying into antisemitism?
    There's three examples so far been given in this thread, its up to others to argue how credible they find these complaints or not, but in general supposedly complaints about racism are supposed to be taken at the utmost level of seriousness and not be dismissed out of hand as "lies" by those who are offended by the allegations.

    1. Foreign Office antisemitism that had to be pushed back against (example given by Brandon Lewis in the clip earlier).
    2. Attempts to ban Kosher food from sale in NI (example given by Brandon Lewis in the clip earlier).
    3. 'BDS' policies where they are instituted (example given by Truss herself).

    3 examples. Now are you so confident that none of those examples ever strays into antisemitism, in any circumstances, or do you think that it is perhaps possible that sometimes it strays into antisemitism?
    Are those examples of "woke civil service culture" straying into antisemitism? To establish that, you need to show that they are or began as "wokeism" and that they stray into antisemitism.

    My apologies, I am coming to the thread late, but Lewis's earlier comments about kosher food in NI had nothing to do with "woke civil service culture". https://www.irishnews.com/news/northernirelandnews/2022/07/18/news/claims_protocol_is_stopping_jewish_people_in_the_north_from_practising_their_religion_branded_as_misleading_-2774372/ fact-checks his earlier comments.
    Seems from that own source that Lewis was entirely accurate in saying that it was causing issues for Kosher food and that any attempts to call it "misleading" is a matter of perspective. So yes, Kosher food was an issue, as your own source acknowledges, and I wonder if perhaps a less antisemitic culture had been in place that this issue would have been taken with more seriousness sooner?
    Lewis does not make the claim that an antisemitic culture in the civil service was delaying a solution being found. Do you have any evidence that that is the case? Come on, Bart, you're normally a serious poster who is willing to engage in issues, and not just spout silly rhetoric.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541
    HYUFD said:

    PWC to open up applications for those with 2.2s to improve social mobility and opportunities

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-62547303

    I don't know when they introduced that requirement but I know at least 2 people who graduated with me in the 90s with that degree who went on to work for PwC (or its predecessors)

  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,720
    HYUFD said:

    PWC to open up applications from those with 2.2s to improve social mobility and opportunities

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-62547303

    I thought the universities only awarded 1sts and the occasional 2.1 these days?
  • SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,773

    kyf_100 said:

    Labour's latest energy price freeze proposal will cost £73bn a year

    Useful comparison chart to other proposals here -

    https://twitter.com/DrSimEvans/status/1559166816580239360

    73 billion a year to protect the profits of private companies. About 10p on income tax, every year. To protect the profits of private companies.
    Bail out the fucking bankers again while youre at it, they could do with a new city penthouse each
    It'll be either that or nationalise the energy companies, which would be tricky as a lot of them won't be UK companies/

    (nationalising the energy suppliers won't do anything, as they buy the energy in)
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 9,152
    edited August 2022
    The cost to the economy of not doing anything may be a lot more , than that.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,720
    kyf_100 said:

    Labour's latest energy price freeze proposal will cost £73bn a year

    Useful comparison chart to other proposals here -

    https://twitter.com/DrSimEvans/status/1559166816580239360

    And will do nothing to save tens of thousands of small businesses which will fold this winter drowned under their energy costs.
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,679

    HYUFD said:

    PWC to open up applications from those with 2.2s to improve social mobility and opportunities

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-62547303

    I thought the universities only awarded 1sts and the occasional 2.1 these days?
    Just lie about it anyway. No one ever checks.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,269

    kyf_100 said:

    Labour's latest energy price freeze proposal will cost £73bn a year

    Useful comparison chart to other proposals here -

    https://twitter.com/DrSimEvans/status/1559166816580239360

    73 billion a year to protect the profits of private companies. About 10p on income tax, every year. To protect the profits of private companies.
    Bail out the fucking bankers again while youre at it, they could do with a new city penthouse each
    It'll be either that or nationalise the energy companies, which would be tricky as a lot of them won't be UK companies/

    (nationalising the energy suppliers won't do anything, as they buy the energy in)
    Nationalise Aramco?

    Think of it as traditional British Imperial policy…

    {Mark Sykes and François Georges-Picot have entered the chat}
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,061

    kyf_100 said:

    Labour's latest energy price freeze proposal will cost £73bn a year

    Useful comparison chart to other proposals here -

    https://twitter.com/DrSimEvans/status/1559166816580239360

    73 billion a year to protect the profits of private companies. About 10p on income tax, every year. To protect the profits of private companies.
    Bail out the fucking bankers again while youre at it, they could do with a new city penthouse each
    It'll be either that or nationalise the energy companies, which would be tricky as a lot of them won't be UK companies/

    (nationalising the energy suppliers won't do anything, as they buy the energy in)
    They've got to get hold of the production of our energy requirements (plus food security). Its the only long term solution. The whole process of globalisation is a frigging cancer
  • .

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    https://twitter.com/KayBurley/status/1559098922697728001

    Can Liz Truss provide evidence to back her suggestion there is "woke" culture in the civil service that "strays into antisemitism"? We asked @BrandonLewis 👇👇 #KayBurley wx

    This was a fucking disgraceful allegation from Truss - and shows she is continuity Johnson. She is a liar.

    There's definitely Woke culture in public infrastructure projects.

    My client is holding a "power games" in Regent's Park on Wednesday evening hosted by the Unite for Race Equality network.

    Have a guess as to how they'll play that.
    Provide evidence there is widespread anti-Semitism in the Civil Service, she used the Jewish Community to further her political agenda.

    Anti-Semitism is something we all take seriously when it is founded. Instead she made the allegation then immediately ran away.

    She is an absolute disgrace - and this has made it clear for me. I will never vote Tory whilst anyone associated with her is in a position of power.
    They are going to hold "egg and spoon" races, and other fun outdoor classics, but ensure that one's starting position in these races is handicapped depending on what "group" you are in - because there must always be an identity politics lesson to be imbibed. Never just neutral fun teambuilding.

    For clarity, that means that a white male I would have to start behind others in the race - probably at the back - and that's the intersectionality lecture delivered.

    That is Wokery and it goes on *all the time*.

    At some point this is going to directly collide with my career ambitions, as I personally cannot abide it but, for now, I will have a "prior engagement" that unfortunately cannot get out of.
    Is that really what they do?!

    Jesus f Christ

    Is this private or public sector?
    The thought of Casino having to start behind in an egg & spoon race in Regents Park because he's white - this is surely an uncalled for humiliation to rank right alongside those caused by the structural racism it is meant to highlight!
    @Casino_Royale should just tell them he self-identifies as Indian due to Indian ancestry. What are these fuckers going to do then? Give him a genetic test? Check to see if he wobbles his head? Race is a social construct so it has no reality anyway, as the same Woke cranks keep telling us

    This is the surreal yet inevitable endpoint of Wokeness. Everyone will self identify as African and gay so they can be first in the company egg and spoon race
    Yada yada.

    The relationship between you and this topic - structural racism - is an odd one indeed. It's a widely acknowledged complex problem but rather than take a pass on it - as posters do all the time on things which either don’t interest them or they can’t get their heads around – what happens is you get angry at the mere mention of it, lashing out at those who take it seriously, risibly making out that to talk about White Privilege is some mortal threat to civilisation, or in lighter vein (which isn’t actually that light) erupting into spasms of “oh god what do we call them this week then?” jocularity, seeking to trivialize the whole thing.

    The term White Fragility is one I realize irritates but tough titty because it also nails a certain specific mindset and set of attitudes and we have living proof of its acuity right here.
    So structural racism is a real problem, but straying into antisemitism is a vile lie?

    Jews don't count.
    Return to sender. Poster who said "accusations of antisemitism are always a vile lie" unknown.
    I didn't say always.

    On this thread @Theuniondivvie @Northern_Al @CorrectHorseBattery and yourself have all angrily suggested that straying into antisemitism as alleged by Truss was a lie.

    Meanwhile you're banging on about "Fragility" and "structural" racism.

    Who is the "Fragile" one really, when comments as mild as Trusses about "straying into" racism attract such vitriol?

    Racism is Structural against every race apart from Jews it seems?

    Which is it, is structural racism real including against Jews, or is racism real but uniquely Jews don't count?
    Now mr @moonshine - see this here IS a "word salad".

    Genuinely hard to extract any sense from it but for the record and please save this tweet:

    Racism - 'structural' or otherwise - exists and it includes antisemitism and it's a bad thing.
    So we're getting somewhere. Structural racism, including antisemitism exists - that is now your opinion.

    In which case, surely what Truss said was eminently reasonable that antisemitism needs tackling [just as any other racism does too] and so can you acknowledge the logical end point of your train of thought and criticise the "Fragility" of those opposing what Truss said?
    You still appear to be ignoring what Truss said. Your position rests on pretending Truss said something she didn’t. She made a specific claim that “woke” civil service culture “strays into antisemitism”.

    In the same speech, she characterised Jewish culture in ways that some feel were stereotyping.

    The most detailed write-up of her comments that I can find is https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/aug/12/liz-truss-protect-british-jews-antisemitism-woke-culture
    Absolutely and "woke" civil service culture does indeed stray into antisemitism, just as almost any "woke" rally of any kind will inevitably have antisemitic placards being waved too. She was entirely correct in everything she wrote, and the Fragile individuals who feel threatened at institutional racism being called out should get over their own Fragility.

    Have I got that right, Kinabalu?
    I can't separate your attempt at humour from the point you are making. Do you have any evidence of "woke civil service culture" straying into antisemitism?
    There's three examples so far been given in this thread, its up to others to argue how credible they find these complaints or not, but in general supposedly complaints about racism are supposed to be taken at the utmost level of seriousness and not be dismissed out of hand as "lies" by those who are offended by the allegations.

    1. Foreign Office antisemitism that had to be pushed back against (example given by Brandon Lewis in the clip earlier).
    2. Attempts to ban Kosher food from sale in NI (example given by Brandon Lewis in the clip earlier).
    3. 'BDS' policies where they are instituted (example given by Truss herself).

    3 examples. Now are you so confident that none of those examples ever strays into antisemitism, in any circumstances, or do you think that it is perhaps possible that sometimes it strays into antisemitism?
    Are those examples of "woke civil service culture" straying into antisemitism? To establish that, you need to show that they are or began as "wokeism" and that they stray into antisemitism.

    My apologies, I am coming to the thread late, but Lewis's earlier comments about kosher food in NI had nothing to do with "woke civil service culture". https://www.irishnews.com/news/northernirelandnews/2022/07/18/news/claims_protocol_is_stopping_jewish_people_in_the_north_from_practising_their_religion_branded_as_misleading_-2774372/ fact-checks his earlier comments.
    Seems from that own source that Lewis was entirely accurate in saying that it was causing issues for Kosher food and that any attempts to call it "misleading" is a matter of perspective. So yes, Kosher food was an issue, as your own source acknowledges, and I wonder if perhaps a less antisemitic culture had been in place that this issue would have been taken with more seriousness sooner?
    Lewis does not make the claim that an antisemitic culture in the civil service was delaying a solution being found. Do you have any evidence that that is the case? Come on, Bart, you're normally a serious poster who is willing to engage in issues, and not just spout silly rhetoric.
    Nobody said that there is an antisemitic culture, they said a culture that sometimes strays into antisemitism and sometimes is too much.

    Under the principles of "institutional racism" if Jews are being institutionally discriminated against then that is institutional racism. Antisemitism. If elements of Civil Service culture were straying into preventing solutions to the institutional racism being found, perhaps because they're not considering concerns being raised by Jews as a priority then that is an issue.

    This shouldn't need explaining any more than it should need explaining that the Met sometimes has issues it needs to face, or any other institution can. The notion that there is sometimes antisemitism in the Civil Service and that needs tackling when it happens, shouldn't be as shocking or objected to as the notion there is sometimes other forms of racism too.

    This is just 'Jews don't count', once more. Had black/gay/Muslim/any other been said instead of Jews many of the same people ferociously objecting would be nodding along sagely.
  • The Government getting involved in energy is just more left wing state encroachment with the loony left establishment media along for the ride
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,863
    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    PWC to open up applications for those with 2.2s to improve social mobility and opportunities

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-62547303

    I don't know when they introduced that requirement but I know at least 2 people who graduated with me in the 90s with that degree who went on to work for PwC (or its predecessors)

    If it carries on like this, HY will be able to get a job there…
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,644
    HYUFD said:

    PWC to open up applications from those with 2.2s to improve social mobility and opportunities

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-62547303

    They probably just can't find enough people with better degrees who are willing to work for them.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298
    The IFS says that inflation is expected to reach 18% for the poorest 20% of households.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,397

    The IFS says that inflation is expected to reach 18% for the poorest 20% of households.

    Fucking hell.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,313

    HYUFD said:

    PWC to open up applications from those with 2.2s to improve social mobility and opportunities

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-62547303

    I thought the universities only awarded 1sts and the occasional 2.1 these days?
    Just lie about it anyway. No one ever checks.
    Not one in my entire knapping career has anyone ever asked what grade of degree I got (a 2:2 as it happens). Indeed I'm not sure I've ever been asked, that much, if I even have a degree

    This has been useful, as about a term into my degree I decided that I didn't care what degree I got, so I did zero work (hence the 2:2)
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,191
    I note there's some test matches scheduled against the Saffers coming up. That should break the dry spell.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,072
    .
    kyf_100 said:

    Labour's latest energy price freeze proposal will cost £73bn a year

    Useful comparison chart to other proposals here -

    https://twitter.com/DrSimEvans/status/1559166816580239360

    Not sure price controls worked for Heath, either (or indeed for Nixon).
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/november/6/newsid_2538000/2538623.stm

    The only good thing about the 70s was that I was decades younger. We look set to repeat, without that consolation.

  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,717

    HYUFD said:

    PWC to open up applications from those with 2.2s to improve social mobility and opportunities

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-62547303

    They probably just can't find enough people with better degrees who are willing to work for them.
    These days the most difficult degree to get, and the only meaningful one is a third.

  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,359

    HYUFD said:

    PWC to open up applications from those with 2.2s to improve social mobility and opportunities

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-62547303

    They probably just can't find enough people with better degrees who are willing to work for them.
    People with 2:2's can launder money just as well as people with better degrees.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298
    edited August 2022
    Very interesting thread (and associated article) from Neil O’Brien MP in which he notes that the “Johnson government” actually increased immigration, seemingly by swapping Europeans with those from poorer countries “who pay less tax”.

    https://twitter.com/neildotobrien/status/1559058038736277506?s=21&t=OEra92fTH5N3oYqK1xwnMg

    I don’t know how this squares with the labour shortages. You could argue we now have the “worst of both worlds”.
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 9,152
    edited August 2022
    Unless Truss grasps the gravity of the sitution, Boris may return on a chariot by 2023.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,157

    "Sean" sounds like a fantastic guy though, does he not post any more? I have noticed this site fall into wokeism very rapidly which is sad to see. I sometimes travel through Waterloo Station and see these awful signs telling me not to be racist. I find this difficult because actually I am racist. I also hate women.

    I've many times ranted to the SWR Twitter account, they have blocked me which is just the latest round of cancel culture. Really is despicable.

    In satire much truth is sometimes revealed.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,957
    IanB2 said:

    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    PWC to open up applications for those with 2.2s to improve social mobility and opportunities

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-62547303

    I don't know when they introduced that requirement but I know at least 2 people who graduated with me in the 90s with that degree who went on to work for PwC (or its predecessors)

    If it carries on like this, HY will be able to get a job there…
    Uncalled for.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,644
    Boston Children’s Hospital seems to be the US version of the Tavistock clinic. Their marketing videos talk about "gender affirming hysterectomies" and say that a child playing with the opposite gender's toys is a sign of being trans.

    https://www.twitter.com/libsoftiktok/status/1558669742126223361

    https://www.twitter.com/libsoftiktok/status/1557775959217950725
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,368
    ydoethur said:

    DougSeal said:

    Is there going to be a prize for the best Leon impersonation?

    It's all a bit Benjamin Button, but it has to be @SeanT.
    He has never been as inventive as old Sean was though.

    I'm still waiting for somebody to top Sean's famous drunken rant, 'I don't give a tankard of warm donkey spunk what you think of me.'
    A genuine LOL!

    Indeed, this imposter @Leon is a poor imitation of the lamented @SeanT .
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,157

    Sean_F said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Cyclefree said:

    kinabalu said:

    Mr. Leon/Mr. kinabalu, indoctrinating children into this nonsense is rather more alarming than some seem to think.

    As this video rather shows:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1I3wJ7pJUjg

    I really do think that children can have an appreciation of the racist legacy of western colonialism - inc the notion of white privilege - without becoming so crippled with personal guilt that they can't tie their own shoelaces.
    They shouldn't feel or be taught any personal guilt whatsoever. The sins of the fathers or, in this case, the multiple great-grandfathers, are not visited on the sons. This was the whole basis of Christian anti-semitism. It was wrong when applied to Jews. It is wrong when applied to people now who have no responsibility whatsoever for what people in previous centuries did or did not do.
    True but only 50% of the picture. Black people have no right to white guilt but they do have a right to the truth; there is a reason why holocaust denial is a crime. Slavery denial OTOH is routine, because its victims are a bit smaller and further away, and harder to see in the dark. It was the defining institution of its age and the basis of the rise of this country and the USA to world domination. Lying about this is wrong.
    There are people in the USA who will argue that slavery was a benign institution. I don't think there's anyone (outside of the lunatic fringe) who would argue that in the UK.
    Well..

    'The much-anticipated report from the Commission on Race and Ethnic Disparities says that there is “a new story about the Caribbean experience which speaks to the slave period not only being about profit and suffering but how culturally African people transformed themselves into a re-modelled African/Britain.”'

    https://tinyurl.com/2p9ext2y
    It fair warms the cockles.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298

    Boston Children’s Hospital seems to be the US version of the Tavistock clinic. Their marketing videos talk about "gender affirming hysterectomies" and say that a child playing with the opposite gender's toys is a sign of being trans.

    https://www.twitter.com/libsoftiktok/status/1558669742126223361

    https://www.twitter.com/libsoftiktok/status/1557775959217950725

    I was in Boston yesterday.
    Lovely place, very chilled.
    You’d never guess it was a hotbed of gender affirming hysterectomy.
Sign In or Register to comment.