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PM Truss’s first test – the energy cost crisis – politicalbetting.com

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  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,946

    ..

    Chris said:

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    kle4 said:

    https://twitter.com/KayBurley/status/1559098922697728001

    Can Liz Truss provide evidence to back her suggestion there is "woke" culture in the civil service that "strays into antisemitism"? We asked @BrandonLewis 👇👇 #KayBurley wx

    This was a fucking disgraceful allegation from Truss - and shows she is continuity Johnson. She is a liar.

    There's definitely Woke culture in public infrastructure projects.

    My client is holding a "power games" in Regent's Park on Wednesday evening hosted by the Unite for Race Equality network.

    Have a guess as to how they'll play that.
    Provide evidence there is widespread anti-Semitism in the Civil Service, she used the Jewish Community to further her political agenda.

    Anti-Semitism is something we all take seriously when it is founded. Instead she made the allegation then immediately ran away.

    She is an absolute disgrace - and this has made it clear for me. I will never vote Tory whilst anyone associated with her is in a position of power.
    Conflating 'woke' with anti-Semitism is just bizarre.
    I think what happened there was she was slamming woke stuff, woke is practicsed by the left, the left is full of Corbynites, Corbyn and/or many of his fellow travellers either strayed into antisemitism or simply were antisemites, ergo woke is antisemitic.
    The most odd thing is that after accusing the Civil Service of anti-semitism without any evidence, she then came out with anti-semitic tropes herself, saying Jews were naturally Conservative because of their skills in business.

    https://twitter.com/jessicaelgot/status/1558054198788427777?t=fXijfbYWkVEOah8QvRAXtA&s=19
    I’ve often wondered: is that an “anti semitic trope”?

    Because Jews really are good at business, compared to the average.


    “Jews Make-Up 19% Of Forbes 200 World’s Richest List”

    https://jewishbusinessnews.com/2018/03/07/jews-make-19-forbes-200-worlds-richest-list/


    So I’d say it’s no more antisemitic to make this point than it is racist to say “Jamaicans are good at sprinting”

    At worst it is a little crude and a stereotype
    No - at worst it is code for "Jews are ruthless, money-obsessed and untrustworthy, in a secret conspiracy to control the world".

    Can't remember if the right on here currently see Farage as the great liberator & most influential politician of the last 20 years, or an embarassing old twat; the way Brexit's going probably tending to the latter. Anyway, a fine example of the dog whistlers to which you allude.

    "Jewish groups and MPs condemn Nigel Farage over antisemitic 'dog whistles'"

    https://tinyurl.com/5bfhzhr8
    In the US of course most Jews still vote Democrat and 76% of US Jews voted for Biden not Trump.

    Hence Trump distinguishes between his staunch support for Israel and US based Jews who he says 'don't like or care about Israel'

    https://www.cnbc.com/2021/12/17/trump-says-american-jews-dont-like-or-care-about-israel.html
  • kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    https://twitter.com/KayBurley/status/1559098922697728001

    Can Liz Truss provide evidence to back her suggestion there is "woke" culture in the civil service that "strays into antisemitism"? We asked @BrandonLewis 👇👇 #KayBurley wx

    This was a fucking disgraceful allegation from Truss - and shows she is continuity Johnson. She is a liar.

    There's definitely Woke culture in public infrastructure projects.

    My client is holding a "power games" in Regent's Park on Wednesday evening hosted by the Unite for Race Equality network.

    Have a guess as to how they'll play that.
    Provide evidence there is widespread anti-Semitism in the Civil Service, she used the Jewish Community to further her political agenda.

    Anti-Semitism is something we all take seriously when it is founded. Instead she made the allegation then immediately ran away.

    She is an absolute disgrace - and this has made it clear for me. I will never vote Tory whilst anyone associated with her is in a position of power.
    They are going to hold "egg and spoon" races, and other fun outdoor classics, but ensure that one's starting position in these races is handicapped depending on what "group" you are in - because there must always be an identity politics lesson to be imbibed. Never just neutral fun teambuilding.

    For clarity, that means that a white male I would have to start behind others in the race - probably at the back - and that's the intersectionality lecture delivered.

    That is Wokery and it goes on *all the time*.

    At some point this is going to directly collide with my career ambitions, as I personally cannot abide it but, for now, I will have a "prior engagement" that unfortunately cannot get out of.
    Is that really what they do?!

    Jesus f Christ

    Is this private or public sector?
    The thought of Casino having to start behind in an egg & spoon race in Regents Park because he's white - this is surely an uncalled for humiliation to rank right alongside those caused by the structural racism it is meant to highlight!
    @Casino_Royale should just tell them he self-identifies as Indian due to Indian ancestry. What are these fuckers going to do then? Give him a genetic test? Check to see if he wobbles his head? Race is a social construct so it has no reality anyway, as the same Woke cranks keep telling us

    This is the surreal yet inevitable endpoint of Wokeness. Everyone will self identify as African and gay so they can be first in the company egg and spoon race
    Yada yada.

    The relationship between you and this topic - structural racism - is an odd one indeed. It's a widely acknowledged complex problem but rather than take a pass on it - as posters do all the time on things which either don’t interest them or they can’t get their heads around – what happens is you get angry at the mere mention of it, lashing out at those who take it seriously, risibly making out that to talk about White Privilege is some mortal threat to civilisation, or in lighter vein (which isn’t actually that light) erupting into spasms of “oh god what do we call them this week then?” jocularity, seeking to trivialize the whole thing.

    The term White Fragility is one I realize irritates but tough titty because it also nails a certain specific mindset and set of attitudes and we have living proof of its acuity right here.
    So structural racism is a real problem, but straying into antisemitism is a vile lie?

    Jews don't count.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,167
    edited August 2022
    Cyclefree said:

    City of London has lost 14% of its restaurants since 2020
    Hospitality sector in Square Mile hobbled by switch to homeworking

    https://www.ft.com/content/f5f59e08-1dd4-41bb-a6f0-714e5c3ae47e (£££)

    The cost of energy is going to cause difficulties for a lot of retail outlets, not just hospitality.
    Sean_F said:

    A PSCO confronted a woman for having a sticker saying "trans-ideology erases women" on their door.

    @Fox_Claire
    Listen to whole of this. It's freaked me out. Furious too. An official from police explicitly says you can only express your views privately, lectures on need to be better informed re trans, when she spouts misinformation & deploys tears & threats. Coercive & bullying. For a sticker.


    https://mobile.twitter.com/Fox_Claire/status/1558978910645374977

    It's always disturbing when police officers don't actually understand the law that they're trying to enforce.
    It's worse than that. The police officer wasn't misunderstanding a law they were trying to enforce but was making up non-existent laws, in part because they have been wrongly trained to believe that saying something others might disagree with is some sort of "crime".
    Agree.

    Is this not simply a continuation of a long-run trend, part of which is assuming non-existent authority, part of it unacceptable laws, part of it is a long-run practice of abuse of the law to silence differing opinions?

    I think it can be dated to the 1990s laws allowing the issuing of warning letters when no offence has been committed, to politicians using harassment laws tactically to attack / silence political opponents, or even to feminists or others complaining about non-inciting blog comments being "violence" (which iirc was a thing 12-15 years ago at least when I first started writing a blog).

    I'd say the dangerous precedent is pandering to 'offence', police losing track of the neutrality of their role, and the whole 'hate incidents which are not a crime' thing.

    Here's another example of the police wanting to "check your thinking" from 2019.

    https://christianconcern.com/comment/ex-cop-sues-cops-over-hate-speech/
    https://www.spiked-online.com/2019/08/16/nineteen-eighty-four-is-now-a-policing-manual/
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,790
    Mr. kinabalu, yep, white fragility is a phrase used to try and reject the validity of the views held by white people who don't like the normalisation of racism against them without actually arguing against it and having to go to the trouble of using reason or evidence.

    And before anyone pretends or forgets what I'm talking about, recent concrete examples include the Met Commissioner openly wanting to be able to reject applicants due to their being white, and the atrocious attitude taken by multiple police forces towards white working class girls (and boys), prioritising 'cultural sensitivity' over investigating widespread sexual abuse.

    Do you believe in black fragility? Or Jewish fragility? I'd be surprised.

    Normalising racism is bad for everyone.
  • DynamoDynamo Posts: 651
    geoffw said:

    A glass-half-full person comments:
    The disruption to oil and gas supply is a global problem and is the cause of the price rises a.k.a. 'cost of living crisis'. It is a supply shock about which we can do nothing, a fait accompli. The policy issues that are being discussed can only mitigate the severity of the impact of the rising prices. This is global and it is one-off. A well-functioning market economy will react in the same way that the Le Chatalier principle works in thermodynamics - by adjusting to a new equilibrium in the least damaging manner. This process involves the inelasticities of (energy) supply and demand loosening up. For this to happen prices have to give the correct signals so as to encourage appropriate responses by suppliers and consumers. The price cap idea directly opposes the natural adjustment of the system by imposing constraints on the adjustment process. This is the opportunity cost of a price cap policy compared to a mitigation policy that does not interfere with prices. It could be quite substantial.

    Could be good or bad then, depending who pays for it. "Natural" - says the true believer. The trade war is not the only cause of inflation. The fall in output after the start of the pandemic period was always going to lead to inflation, sure as eggs are eggs.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,397

    SKS Guilty as charged of being a hyporite and a liar

    https://twitter.com/home?lang=en-gb

    Is there anything he could do that you would approve of?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,103

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    https://twitter.com/KayBurley/status/1559098922697728001

    Can Liz Truss provide evidence to back her suggestion there is "woke" culture in the civil service that "strays into antisemitism"? We asked @BrandonLewis 👇👇 #KayBurley wx

    This was a fucking disgraceful allegation from Truss - and shows she is continuity Johnson. She is a liar.

    There's definitely Woke culture in public infrastructure projects.

    My client is holding a "power games" in Regent's Park on Wednesday evening hosted by the Unite for Race Equality network.

    Have a guess as to how they'll play that.
    Provide evidence there is widespread anti-Semitism in the Civil Service, she used the Jewish Community to further her political agenda.

    Anti-Semitism is something we all take seriously when it is founded. Instead she made the allegation then immediately ran away.

    She is an absolute disgrace - and this has made it clear for me. I will never vote Tory whilst anyone associated with her is in a position of power.
    They are going to hold "egg and spoon" races, and other fun outdoor classics, but ensure that one's starting position in these races is handicapped depending on what "group" you are in - because there must always be an identity politics lesson to be imbibed. Never just neutral fun teambuilding.

    For clarity, that means that a white male I would have to start behind others in the race - probably at the back - and that's the intersectionality lecture delivered.

    That is Wokery and it goes on *all the time*.

    At some point this is going to directly collide with my career ambitions, as I personally cannot abide it but, for now, I will have a "prior engagement" that unfortunately cannot get out of.
    Is that really what they do?!

    Jesus f Christ

    Is this private or public sector?
    The thought of Casino having to start behind in an egg & spoon race in Regents Park because he's white - this is surely an uncalled for humiliation to rank right alongside those caused by the structural racism it is meant to highlight!
    @Casino_Royale should just tell them he self-identifies as Indian due to Indian ancestry. What are these fuckers going to do then? Give him a genetic test? Check to see if he wobbles his head? Race is a social construct so it has no reality anyway, as the same Woke cranks keep telling us

    This is the surreal yet inevitable endpoint of Wokeness. Everyone will self identify as African and gay so they can be first in the company egg and spoon race
    Yada yada.

    The relationship between you and this topic - structural racism - is an odd one indeed. It's a widely acknowledged complex problem but rather than take a pass on it - as posters do all the time on things which either don’t interest them or they can’t get their heads around – what happens is you get angry at the mere mention of it, lashing out at those who take it seriously, risibly making out that to talk about White Privilege is some mortal threat to civilisation, or in lighter vein (which isn’t actually that light) erupting into spasms of “oh god what do we call them this week then?” jocularity, seeking to trivialize the whole thing.

    The term White Fragility is one I realize irritates but tough titty because it also nails a certain specific mindset and set of attitudes and we have living proof of its acuity right here.
    So structural racism is a real problem, but straying into antisemitism is a vile lie?

    Jews don't count.
    That's a strange conclusion to reach from that post.
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 5,747
    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    https://twitter.com/KayBurley/status/1559098922697728001

    Can Liz Truss provide evidence to back her suggestion there is "woke" culture in the civil service that "strays into antisemitism"? We asked @BrandonLewis 👇👇 #KayBurley wx

    This was a fucking disgraceful allegation from Truss - and shows she is continuity Johnson. She is a liar.

    There's definitely Woke culture in public infrastructure projects.

    My client is holding a "power games" in Regent's Park on Wednesday evening hosted by the Unite for Race Equality network.

    Have a guess as to how they'll play that.
    Provide evidence there is widespread anti-Semitism in the Civil Service, she used the Jewish Community to further her political agenda.

    Anti-Semitism is something we all take seriously when it is founded. Instead she made the allegation then immediately ran away.

    She is an absolute disgrace - and this has made it clear for me. I will never vote Tory whilst anyone associated with her is in a position of power.
    They are going to hold "egg and spoon" races, and other fun outdoor classics, but ensure that one's starting position in these races is handicapped depending on what "group" you are in - because there must always be an identity politics lesson to be imbibed. Never just neutral fun teambuilding.

    For clarity, that means that a white male I would have to start behind others in the race - probably at the back - and that's the intersectionality lecture delivered.

    That is Wokery and it goes on *all the time*.

    At some point this is going to directly collide with my career ambitions, as I personally cannot abide it but, for now, I will have a "prior engagement" that unfortunately cannot get out of.
    Is that really what they do?!

    Jesus f Christ

    Is this private or public sector?
    The thought of Casino having to start behind in an egg & spoon race in Regents Park because he's white - this is surely an uncalled for humiliation to rank right alongside those caused by the structural racism it is meant to highlight!
    @Casino_Royale should just tell them he self-identifies as Indian due to Indian ancestry. What are these fuckers going to do then? Give him a genetic test? Check to see if he wobbles his head? Race is a social construct so it has no reality anyway, as the same Woke cranks keep telling us

    This is the surreal yet inevitable endpoint of Wokeness. Everyone will self identify as African and gay so they can be first in the company egg and spoon race
    Yada yada.

    The relationship between you and this topic - structural racism - is an odd one indeed. It's a widely acknowledged complex problem but rather than take a pass on it - as posters do all the time on things which either don’t interest them or they can’t get their heads around – what happens is you get angry at the mere mention of it, lashing out at those who take it seriously, risibly making out that to talk about White Privilege is some mortal threat to civilisation, or in lighter vein (which isn’t actually that light) erupting into
    spasms of “oh god what do we call them this
    week then?” jocularity, seeking to trivialize the
    whole thing.



    The term White Fragility is one I realize irritates but tough titty because it also nails a certain specific mindset and set of attitudes and we have living proof of its acuity right here.
    Your word salad has rather spoilt my appetite right before lunch.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,310

    Mr. Battery, funnily enough, 'what the fuck' was my response to this wonderful little video about white privilege:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1I3wJ7pJUjg

    Wokeness is fixated on categorising people by demographics such as race. We see this with some modern employment practices such as when Cressida Dick wanted the right to discriminate against white applicants.

    From the way she behaved I suggest Cressida Dick wanted to discriminate against competent applicants!
    And how amazingly successful she was in that!
  • dixiedean said:

    Announcement of price cap August 26.
    Announcement of Tory PM September 5.
    Period of maximum danger. Vague aspirations won't cut it.
    The 1922 was out of touch. Members holidays was the priority in framing the schedule.

    Is that really the timetable?

    Epic fail Tories. You're about to get reamed.

    Just think what the timetable play out looks like. Price cap of £stupid announced. Mistress Truss restates that "tax cuts not handouts" are her promise. Sunak / Labour (same thing briefs Simon Clarke) say "this is terrible, people will be in very real difficulty".
    Heels get dug in, PM says "nothing to do with me" and the ship of state literally burns and the Tories credibility with it.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,431
    Cyclefree said:

    Mr. Battery, funnily enough, 'what the fuck' was my response to this wonderful little video about white privilege:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1I3wJ7pJUjg

    Wokeness is fixated on categorising people by demographics such as race. We see this with some modern employment practices such as when Cressida Dick wanted the right to discriminate against white applicants.

    From the way she behaved I suggest Cressida Dick wanted to discriminate against competent applicants!
    And how amazingly successful she was in that!
    Takes one to know one?
  • kle4 said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    https://twitter.com/KayBurley/status/1559098922697728001

    Can Liz Truss provide evidence to back her suggestion there is "woke" culture in the civil service that "strays into antisemitism"? We asked @BrandonLewis 👇👇 #KayBurley wx

    This was a fucking disgraceful allegation from Truss - and shows she is continuity Johnson. She is a liar.

    There's definitely Woke culture in public infrastructure projects.

    My client is holding a "power games" in Regent's Park on Wednesday evening hosted by the Unite for Race Equality network.

    Have a guess as to how they'll play that.
    Provide evidence there is widespread anti-Semitism in the Civil Service, she used the Jewish Community to further her political agenda.

    Anti-Semitism is something we all take seriously when it is founded. Instead she made the allegation then immediately ran away.

    She is an absolute disgrace - and this has made it clear for me. I will never vote Tory whilst anyone associated with her is in a position of power.
    They are going to hold "egg and spoon" races, and other fun outdoor classics, but ensure that one's starting position in these races is handicapped depending on what "group" you are in - because there must always be an identity politics lesson to be imbibed. Never just neutral fun teambuilding.

    For clarity, that means that a white male I would have to start behind others in the race - probably at the back - and that's the intersectionality lecture delivered.

    That is Wokery and it goes on *all the time*.

    At some point this is going to directly collide with my career ambitions, as I personally cannot abide it but, for now, I will have a "prior engagement" that unfortunately cannot get out of.
    Is that really what they do?!

    Jesus f Christ

    Is this private or public sector?
    The thought of Casino having to start behind in an egg & spoon race in Regents Park because he's white - this is surely an uncalled for humiliation to rank right alongside those caused by the structural racism it is meant to highlight!
    @Casino_Royale should just tell them he self-identifies as Indian due to Indian ancestry. What are these fuckers going to do then? Give him a genetic test? Check to see if he wobbles his head? Race is a social construct so it has no reality anyway, as the same Woke cranks keep telling us

    This is the surreal yet inevitable endpoint of Wokeness. Everyone will self identify as African and gay so they can be first in the company egg and spoon race
    Yada yada.

    The relationship between you and this topic - structural racism - is an odd one indeed. It's a widely acknowledged complex problem but rather than take a pass on it - as posters do all the time on things which either don’t interest them or they can’t get their heads around – what happens is you get angry at the mere mention of it, lashing out at those who take it seriously, risibly making out that to talk about White Privilege is some mortal threat to civilisation, or in lighter vein (which isn’t actually that light) erupting into spasms of “oh god what do we call them this week then?” jocularity, seeking to trivialize the whole thing.

    The term White Fragility is one I realize irritates but tough titty because it also nails a certain specific mindset and set of attitudes and we have living proof of its acuity right here.
    So structural racism is a real problem, but straying into antisemitism is a vile lie?

    Jews don't count.
    That's a strange conclusion to reach from that post.
    Not at all.

    One of three situations can be true from what I can see:

    1 - Structural racism, including antisemitism, exists and should be tackled. In which case Truss saying antisemitism should be tackled should be agreed with.

    2 - Structural racism, including antisemitism, doesn't exist. In which case those suggesting racism exists may be called "liars" but the very concepts of "White Fragility" etc are also nonsensical.

    3 - Structural racism exists, but uniquely for some reason antisemitism does not. Structural racism is so rampant that talk of "White Fragility" makes sense, but antisemitism is so non-existent that even suggesting antisemitism needs to be tackled when its strayed into is a vile lie.

    I would go with #1. It seems Kinabalu goes with #3.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,309
    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    https://twitter.com/KayBurley/status/1559098922697728001

    Can Liz Truss provide evidence to back her suggestion there is "woke" culture in the civil service that "strays into antisemitism"? We asked @BrandonLewis 👇👇 #KayBurley wx

    This was a fucking disgraceful allegation from Truss - and shows she is continuity Johnson. She is a liar.

    There's definitely Woke culture in public infrastructure projects.

    My client is holding a "power games" in Regent's Park on Wednesday evening hosted by the Unite for Race Equality network.

    Have a guess as to how they'll play that.
    Provide evidence there is widespread anti-Semitism in the Civil Service, she used the Jewish Community to further her political agenda.

    Anti-Semitism is something we all take seriously when it is founded. Instead she made the allegation then immediately ran away.

    She is an absolute disgrace - and this has made it clear for me. I will never vote Tory whilst anyone associated with her is in a position of power.
    They are going to hold "egg and spoon" races, and other fun outdoor classics, but ensure that one's starting position in these races is handicapped depending on what "group" you are in - because there must always be an identity politics lesson to be imbibed. Never just neutral fun teambuilding.

    For clarity, that means that a white male I would have to start behind others in the race - probably at the back - and that's the intersectionality lecture delivered.

    That is Wokery and it goes on *all the time*.

    At some point this is going to directly collide with my career ambitions, as I personally cannot abide it but, for now, I will have a "prior engagement" that unfortunately cannot get out of.
    Is that really what they do?!

    Jesus f Christ

    Is this private or public sector?
    The thought of Casino having to start behind in an egg & spoon race in Regents Park because he's white - this is surely an uncalled for humiliation to rank right alongside those caused by the structural racism it is meant to highlight!
    @Casino_Royale should just tell them he self-identifies as Indian due to Indian ancestry. What are these fuckers going to do then? Give him a genetic test? Check to see if he wobbles his head? Race is a social construct so it has no reality anyway, as the same Woke cranks keep telling us

    This is the surreal yet inevitable endpoint of Wokeness. Everyone will self identify as African and gay so they can be first in the company egg and spoon race
    Yada yada.

    The relationship between you and this topic - structural racism - is an odd one indeed. It's a widely acknowledged complex problem but rather than take a pass on it - as posters do all the time on things which either don’t interest them or they can’t get their heads around – what happens is you get angry at the mere mention of it, lashing out at those who take it seriously, risibly making out that to talk about White Privilege is some mortal threat to civilisation, or in lighter vein (which isn’t actually that light) erupting into spasms of “oh god what do we call them this week then?” jocularity, seeking to trivialize the whole thing.

    The term White Fragility is one I realize irritates but tough titty because it also nails a certain specific mindset and set of attitudes and we have living proof of its acuity right here.
    This week we call them BAGMs. No, really, because BAME is now deemed racist - an evolution I warned you about, you silly old woman, yet you refused to accept would happen - a new term has hoved into view. BAGMs. Black Asian and Global Majority. BAGMs. I expect you’ll be earnestly using it in your tedious, dull, pointlessly effeminate comments for two years before you belatedly realise we’ve all moved onto something else while you were playing Ladies golf

    The Times uses it here in its report of the Sadowitz affair

    “Call for Pleasance boycott after Jerry Sadowitz cancelled”

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/6b67dac4-1c1e-11ed-add4-d333562d46fb?shareToken=fd8f39c0d0d111167bd1c4f7bedd523b
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    https://twitter.com/KayBurley/status/1559098922697728001

    Can Liz Truss provide evidence to back her suggestion there is "woke" culture in the civil service that "strays into antisemitism"? We asked @BrandonLewis 👇👇 #KayBurley wx

    This was a fucking disgraceful allegation from Truss - and shows she is continuity Johnson. She is a liar.

    There's definitely Woke culture in public infrastructure projects.

    My client is holding a "power games" in Regent's Park on Wednesday evening hosted by the Unite for Race Equality network.

    Have a guess as to how they'll play that.
    Provide evidence there is widespread anti-Semitism in the Civil Service, she used the Jewish Community to further her political agenda.

    Anti-Semitism is something we all take seriously when it is founded. Instead she made the allegation then immediately ran away.

    She is an absolute disgrace - and this has made it clear for me. I will never vote Tory whilst anyone associated with her is in a position of power.
    They are going to hold "egg and spoon" races, and other fun outdoor classics, but ensure that one's starting position in these races is handicapped depending on what "group" you are in - because there must always be an identity politics lesson to be imbibed. Never just neutral fun teambuilding.

    For clarity, that means that a white male I would have to start behind others in the race - probably at the back - and that's the intersectionality lecture delivered.

    That is Wokery and it goes on *all the time*.

    At some point this is going to directly collide with my career ambitions, as I personally cannot abide it but, for now, I will have a "prior engagement" that unfortunately cannot get out of.
    Is that really what they do?!

    Jesus f Christ

    Is this private or public sector?
    The thought of Casino having to start behind in an egg & spoon race in Regents Park because he's white - this is surely an uncalled for humiliation to rank right alongside those caused by the structural racism it is meant to highlight!
    It is worse than a crime, it is a blunder. Because there is only one outcome of the race that establishes an interesting result, and that is if handicapped whitey wins anyway. and if that happens, what's the natural conclusion?
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,662
    edited August 2022
    ydoethur said:

    SKS Guilty as charged of being a hyporite and a liar

    https://twitter.com/home?lang=en-gb

    Is there anything he could do that you would approve of?
    ydoethur said:

    SKS Guilty as charged of being a hyporite and a liar

    https://twitter.com/home?lang=en-gb

    Is there anything he could do that you would approve of?
    He could be on the side of organised Labour in an Industrial Dispute in the middle of a cost of Living crisis

    You know like he said he was in that clip from 2020
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,957

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    https://twitter.com/KayBurley/status/1559098922697728001

    Can Liz Truss provide evidence to back her suggestion there is "woke" culture in the civil service that "strays into antisemitism"? We asked @BrandonLewis 👇👇 #KayBurley wx

    This was a fucking disgraceful allegation from Truss - and shows she is continuity Johnson. She is a liar.

    There's definitely Woke culture in public infrastructure projects.

    My client is holding a "power games" in Regent's Park on Wednesday evening hosted by the Unite for Race Equality network.

    Have a guess as to how they'll play that.
    Provide evidence there is widespread anti-Semitism in the Civil Service, she used the Jewish Community to further her political agenda.

    Anti-Semitism is something we all take seriously when it is founded. Instead she made the allegation then immediately ran away.

    She is an absolute disgrace - and this has made it clear for me. I will never vote Tory whilst anyone associated with her is in a position of power.
    They are going to hold "egg and spoon" races, and other fun outdoor classics, but ensure that one's starting position in these races is handicapped depending on what "group" you are in - because there must always be an identity politics lesson to be imbibed. Never just neutral fun teambuilding.

    For clarity, that means that a white male I would have to start behind others in the race - probably at the back - and that's the intersectionality lecture delivered.

    That is Wokery and it goes on *all the time*.

    At some point this is going to directly collide with my career ambitions, as I personally cannot abide it but, for now, I will have a "prior engagement" that unfortunately cannot get out of.
    Is that really what they do?!

    Jesus f Christ

    Is this private or public sector?
    The thought of Casino having to start behind in an egg & spoon race in Regents Park because he's white - this is surely an uncalled for humiliation to rank right alongside those caused by the structural racism it is meant to highlight!
    @Casino_Royale should just tell them he self-identifies as Indian due to Indian ancestry. What are these fuckers going to do then? Give him a genetic test? Check to see if he wobbles his head? Race is a social construct so it has no reality anyway, as the same Woke cranks keep telling us

    This is the surreal yet inevitable endpoint of Wokeness. Everyone will self identify as African and gay so they can be first in the company egg and spoon race
    Yada yada.

    The relationship between you and this topic - structural racism - is an odd one indeed. It's a widely acknowledged complex problem but rather than take a pass on it - as posters do all the time on things which either don’t interest them or they can’t get their heads around – what happens is you get angry at the mere mention of it, lashing out at those who take it seriously, risibly making out that to talk about White Privilege is some mortal threat to civilisation, or in lighter vein (which isn’t actually that light) erupting into spasms of “oh god what do we call them this week then?” jocularity, seeking to trivialize the whole thing.

    The term White Fragility is one I realize irritates but tough titty because it also nails a certain specific mindset and set of attitudes and we have living proof of its acuity right here.
    So structural racism is a real problem, but straying into antisemitism is a vile lie?

    Jews don't count.
    Discrimination in the UK - a left wing guide:

    Groups the UK discriminates against in the past and now, consciously or unconsciously: blacks, gays, trans people, asians (south and east), muslims, hindus, sikhs, zoroastrians, buddhists, 7th day adventists, mormons (less so since the musical), ufo believers.

    Groups the UK never has and now doesn't discriminate against: jews
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,717
    Dynamo said:

    geoffw said:

    A glass-half-full person comments:
    The disruption to oil and gas supply is a global problem and is the cause of the price rises a.k.a. 'cost of living crisis'. It is a supply shock about which we can do nothing, a fait accompli. The policy issues that are being discussed can only mitigate the severity of the impact of the rising prices. This is global and it is one-off. A well-functioning market economy will react in the same way that the Le Chatalier principle works in thermodynamics - by adjusting to a new equilibrium in the least damaging manner. This process involves the inelasticities of (energy) supply and demand loosening up. For this to happen prices have to give the correct signals so as to encourage appropriate responses by suppliers and consumers. The price cap idea directly opposes the natural adjustment of the system by imposing constraints on the adjustment process. This is the opportunity cost of a price cap policy compared to a mitigation policy that does not interfere with prices. It could be quite substantial.

    Could be good or bad then, depending who pays for it. "Natural" - says the true believer. The trade war is not the only cause of inflation. The fall in output after the start of the pandemic period was always going to lead to inflation, sure as eggs are eggs.
    "Could be good or bad then …". No, a price cap implies a loss of welfare, so is unambiguously bad. How that loss is apportioned between people is up to government.

    In context, your "natural" point is fatuous.

    A fall in output only leads to inflation if demand does not fall pari passu.

  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,269
    Cyclefree said:

    Mr. Battery, funnily enough, 'what the fuck' was my response to this wonderful little video about white privilege:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1I3wJ7pJUjg

    Wokeness is fixated on categorising people by demographics such as race. We see this with some modern employment practices such as when Cressida Dick wanted the right to discriminate against white applicants.

    From the way she behaved I suggest Cressida Dick wanted to discriminate against competent applicants!
    And how amazingly successful she was in that!
    Hmmm

    A skill she does possess?

    Hmmm

    Perhaps she is useful after all.

    An old friend was incredibly bad at picking horses. On of the pro spreadbetting types we both knew, tried betting on *every other horse* than the one Alan bet on. And made some money….

    IDEA!
  • ydoethur said:

    SKS Guilty as charged of being a hyporite and a liar

    https://twitter.com/home?lang=en-gb

    Is there anything he could do that you would approve of?
    ydoethur said:

    SKS Guilty as charged of being a hyporite and a liar

    https://twitter.com/home?lang=en-gb

    Is there anything he could do that you would approve of?
    He could be on the side of organised Labour in an Industrial Dispute in the middle of a cost of Living crisis
    Problem is the definition of "organised Labour". When the unions in question are largely on the loony "we don't care about the Labour Party" side and have leaders who say "questionable" things, why should Starmer dance to their tune?

    There is no automatic union right / government wrong consideration. I have a huge amount of sympathy for all of the different professions on strike, but the proposed answer of "just pay what they ask" is how we get to 1970s style runaway inflation. Which is why the Labour government in the 70s didn't just support the unions.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,557

    SKS Guilty as charged of being a hyporite and a liar

    https://twitter.com/home?lang=en-gb

    What's the link supposed to be?
  • rjkrjk Posts: 71
    IshmaelZ said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    https://twitter.com/KayBurley/status/1559098922697728001

    Can Liz Truss provide evidence to back her suggestion there is "woke" culture in the civil service that "strays into antisemitism"? We asked @BrandonLewis 👇👇 #KayBurley wx

    This was a fucking disgraceful allegation from Truss - and shows she is continuity Johnson. She is a liar.

    There's definitely Woke culture in public infrastructure projects.

    My client is holding a "power games" in Regent's Park on Wednesday evening hosted by the Unite for Race Equality network.

    Have a guess as to how they'll play that.
    Provide evidence there is widespread anti-Semitism in the Civil Service, she used the Jewish Community to further her political agenda.

    Anti-Semitism is something we all take seriously when it is founded. Instead she made the allegation then immediately ran away.

    She is an absolute disgrace - and this has made it clear for me. I will never vote Tory whilst anyone associated with her is in a position of power.
    They are going to hold "egg and spoon" races, and other fun outdoor classics, but ensure that one's starting position in these races is handicapped depending on what "group" you are in - because there must always be an identity politics lesson to be imbibed. Never just neutral fun teambuilding.

    For clarity, that means that a white male I would have to start behind others in the race - probably at the back - and that's the intersectionality lecture delivered.

    That is Wokery and it goes on *all the time*.

    At some point this is going to directly collide with my career ambitions, as I personally cannot abide it but, for now, I will have a "prior engagement" that unfortunately cannot get out of.
    Is that really what they do?!

    Jesus f Christ

    Is this private or public sector?
    The thought of Casino having to start behind in an egg & spoon race in Regents Park because he's white - this is surely an uncalled for humiliation to rank right alongside those caused by the structural racism it is meant to highlight!
    It is worse than a crime, it is a blunder. Because there is only one outcome of the race that establishes an interesting result, and that is if handicapped whitey wins anyway. and if that happens, what's the natural conclusion?
    That there should have been a bigger handicap?
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,167

    "it doesn't work when the sun goes in" is a debate I thought we'd settled like 15 years ago.

    No of course not, that's why you store the electricity.

    Ideally, you store the energy from solar, though the technology isn't quite there yet. But right now, gas storage works as a reasonable proxy, and that does work if we can be bothered.

    Use solar as much as you can when it's there. That means you use less gas. That's fine as long as you store the not-used-today gas for nighttime and cloudy days.

    Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good, basically.
    As I said storing energy from day to night is viable, and if it wasn't countercyclical then solar would be perfect for that as it is in places like California.

    Storing energy from summer to winter, not so much, which is why stuff like tidal or wind is a more serious proposition in the UK. Wind and tidal energy can if at a surplus be stored for a few hours or days until its needed, not for six months at a time.

    Absolutely agreed with don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good, which is why I have said we absolutely can and should install solar where it is economically viable but where it is not economically viable we should be looking at any subsidies going to address our strategic situations which is that we are an island nation that needs peak energy supply in the winter, not the summer.

    Storing wind for a week when we have low pressure is far more sustainable than storing solar from July to use in January.
    Yes - that's about right imo.

    Seasonal storage on a domestic scale has, like micro wind, been tried and found unjustifiable except in the most unusual circumstances.

    On a larger scale - maybe, but requires demonstrating.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,309
    Incidentally, the Jerry Sadowitz Affair has plunged the Fringe into civil war. Hilarious


    “Luke Johnson, co-owner and director of Assembly Festival, the largest venue operator at the Fringe, said Pleasance “can get stuffed telling other venues to ban artists just because they lost their bottle”.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,072
    edited August 2022
    ydoethur said:

    Sean_F said:

    TOPPING said:

    fwiw while I have little doubt that the UK civil service and FO was at best anti-Israel and at worst anti-semitic in the past, I would be surprised if there were too many anti-semites there now for precisely the reason (wokeness) that Truss complains of.

    That said, it is easy for those on the left (not you @Stark_Dawning ) to stray into anti-Israel/pro-Palestine/anti-semitism so perhaps that's what she's getting at.

    It was always a theme in Yes Minister that the Civil Service was "pro Arab" (to put it politely).

    It probably was a hangover from Imperial times, when ex colonial administrators had fond memories of the local sheikh or emir offering them a boy for the night, as a form of hospitality.
    I thought it was more simply that the Arabs had oil and the Israelis didn't. Piss off the Arabs and it had unfortunate consequences for our oil supply (as Eden found out). 'The PM should be concerned about the Oily Places not the Holy Places.'

    Of course, that may have been a cover for anti-semitic prejudice.
    That's post WWII, though, and hardly a novel development.

    Pre-war antisemitism was not exactly unusual in British society, as this (surprisingly un-judgmental) article suggests:
    https://thecritic.co.uk/issues/august-september-2021/such-such-were-the-goys/

    (Incidentally, I note that both Michael Gove and Theresa May are self proclaimed admirers of Dornford Yates.)
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 8,727
    IshmaelZ said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    https://twitter.com/KayBurley/status/1559098922697728001

    Can Liz Truss provide evidence to back her suggestion there is "woke" culture in the civil service that "strays into antisemitism"? We asked @BrandonLewis 👇👇 #KayBurley wx

    This was a fucking disgraceful allegation from Truss - and shows she is continuity Johnson. She is a liar.

    There's definitely Woke culture in public infrastructure projects.

    My client is holding a "power games" in Regent's Park on Wednesday evening hosted by the Unite for Race Equality network.

    Have a guess as to how they'll play that.
    Provide evidence there is widespread anti-Semitism in the Civil Service, she used the Jewish Community to further her political agenda.

    Anti-Semitism is something we all take seriously when it is founded. Instead she made the allegation then immediately ran away.

    She is an absolute disgrace - and this has made it clear for me. I will never vote Tory whilst anyone associated with her is in a position of power.
    They are going to hold "egg and spoon" races, and other fun outdoor classics, but ensure that one's starting position in these races is handicapped depending on what "group" you are in - because there must always be an identity politics lesson to be imbibed. Never just neutral fun teambuilding.

    For clarity, that means that a white male I would have to start behind others in the race - probably at the back - and that's the intersectionality lecture delivered.

    That is Wokery and it goes on *all the time*.

    At some point this is going to directly collide with my career ambitions, as I personally cannot abide it but, for now, I will have a "prior engagement" that unfortunately cannot get out of.
    Is that really what they do?!

    Jesus f Christ

    Is this private or public sector?
    The thought of Casino having to start behind in an egg & spoon race in Regents Park because he's white - this is surely an uncalled for humiliation to rank right alongside those caused by the structural racism it is meant to highlight!
    It is worse than a crime, it is a blunder. Because there is only one outcome of the race that establishes an interesting result, and that is if handicapped whitey wins anyway. and if that happens, what's the natural conclusion?
    Casino's coach has been passing him cold or asthma rememdies? :innocent:
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    kle4 said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    https://twitter.com/KayBurley/status/1559098922697728001

    Can Liz Truss provide evidence to back her suggestion there is "woke" culture in the civil service that "strays into antisemitism"? We asked @BrandonLewis 👇👇 #KayBurley wx

    This was a fucking disgraceful allegation from Truss - and shows she is continuity Johnson. She is a liar.

    There's definitely Woke culture in public infrastructure projects.

    My client is holding a "power games" in Regent's Park on Wednesday evening hosted by the Unite for Race Equality network.

    Have a guess as to how they'll play that.
    Provide evidence there is widespread anti-Semitism in the Civil Service, she used the Jewish Community to further her political agenda.

    Anti-Semitism is something we all take seriously when it is founded. Instead she made the allegation then immediately ran away.

    She is an absolute disgrace - and this has made it clear for me. I will never vote Tory whilst anyone associated with her is in a position of power.
    They are going to hold "egg and spoon" races, and other fun outdoor classics, but ensure that one's starting position in these races is handicapped depending on what "group" you are in - because there must always be an identity politics lesson to be imbibed. Never just neutral fun teambuilding.

    For clarity, that means that a white male I would have to start behind others in the race - probably at the back - and that's the intersectionality lecture delivered.

    That is Wokery and it goes on *all the time*.

    At some point this is going to directly collide with my career ambitions, as I personally cannot abide it but, for now, I will have a "prior engagement" that unfortunately cannot get out of.
    Is that really what they do?!

    Jesus f Christ

    Is this private or public sector?
    The thought of Casino having to start behind in an egg & spoon race in Regents Park because he's white - this is surely an uncalled for humiliation to rank right alongside those caused by the structural racism it is meant to highlight!
    @Casino_Royale should just tell them he self-identifies as Indian due to Indian ancestry. What are these fuckers going to do then? Give him a genetic test? Check to see if he wobbles his head? Race is a social construct so it has no reality anyway, as the same Woke cranks keep telling us

    This is the surreal yet inevitable endpoint of Wokeness. Everyone will self identify as African and gay so they can be first in the company egg and spoon race
    Yada yada.

    The relationship between you and this topic - structural racism - is an odd one indeed. It's a widely acknowledged complex problem but rather than take a pass on it - as posters do all the time on things which either don’t interest them or they can’t get their heads around – what happens is you get angry at the mere mention of it, lashing out at those who take it seriously, risibly making out that to talk about White Privilege is some mortal threat to civilisation, or in lighter vein (which isn’t actually that light) erupting into spasms of “oh god what do we call them this week then?” jocularity, seeking to trivialize the whole thing.

    The term White Fragility is one I realize irritates but tough titty because it also nails a certain specific mindset and set of attitudes and we have living proof of its acuity right here.
    So structural racism is a real problem, but straying into antisemitism is a vile lie?

    Jews don't count.
    That's a strange conclusion to reach from that post.
    Not at all.

    One of three situations can be true from what I can see:

    1 - Structural racism, including antisemitism, exists and should be tackled. In which case Truss saying antisemitism should be tackled should be agreed with.

    2 - Structural racism, including antisemitism, doesn't exist. In which case those suggesting racism exists may be called "liars" but the very concepts of "White Fragility" etc are also nonsensical.

    3 - Structural racism exists, but uniquely for some reason antisemitism does not. Structural racism is so rampant that talk of "White Fragility" makes sense, but antisemitism is so non-existent that even suggesting antisemitism needs to be tackled when its strayed into is a vile lie.

    I would go with #1. It seems Kinabalu goes with #3.
    Kinabalu knows that 1 is the case. He just finds it irksome that those on the centre left and all points right are anti-anti-semitism on two entirely separate levels, both the obvious one because A Frank, holocaust, tolerance etc AND because his party elected a Leader so profoundly stupid that he was unable to recognise antisemitism in its most obvious form, in his party and in himself, and it is massive fun pointing this out. Again and again. The joke never gets old.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,370
    Leon said:

    Incidentally, the Jerry Sadowitz Affair has plunged the Fringe into civil war. Hilarious


    “Luke Johnson, co-owner and director of Assembly Festival, the largest venue operator at the Fringe, said Pleasance “can get stuffed telling other venues to ban artists just because they lost their bottle”.

    Given that anyone buying a ticket to Jerry Sadowitz would know exactly what to expect - I do have to wonder how utterly dire the show must have been...
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 8,663
    A
    Leon said:

    Incidentally, the Jerry Sadowitz Affair has plunged the Fringe into civil war. Hilarious


    “Luke Johnson, co-owner and director of Assembly Festival, the largest venue operator at the Fringe, said Pleasance “can get stuffed telling other venues to ban artists just because they lost their bottle”.

    Smart - he's thinking about next year, and the comedians he can nick off the Pleasance cos they're worried about the same happening to them.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,167
    dixiedean said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Liz's plan for the next few weeks is surely to keep everything a bit vague, a detailed plan would get picked apart at this stage (As ANY plan is going to have it's difficulties).
    Once she's in it's a different matter - but the race isn't technically over yet and she doesn't want another regional pay debacle.
    Basically 19 days of shouldering arms to deliveries outside offstump in cricketing terms.

    Unfortunately for her, the August 26 announcement of the new price cap is a 90 mph inswinging Yorker on middle.
    Yes. Liz Truss needs to address it first, otherwise she will be writing 'bottom-sitter' across her forehead.

    Keir Starmer has laid the elephant trap; it is for both candidates to deal with it - if they can stop rearranging deckchairs on the runaway train they are failing to drive.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,946
    Nigelb said:

    ydoethur said:

    Sean_F said:

    TOPPING said:

    fwiw while I have little doubt that the UK civil service and FO was at best anti-Israel and at worst anti-semitic in the past, I would be surprised if there were too many anti-semites there now for precisely the reason (wokeness) that Truss complains of.

    That said, it is easy for those on the left (not you @Stark_Dawning ) to stray into anti-Israel/pro-Palestine/anti-semitism so perhaps that's what she's getting at.

    It was always a theme in Yes Minister that the Civil Service was "pro Arab" (to put it politely).

    It probably was a hangover from Imperial times, when ex colonial administrators had fond memories of the local sheikh or emir offering them a boy for the night, as a form of hospitality.
    I thought it was more simply that the Arabs had oil and the Israelis didn't. Piss off the Arabs and it had unfortunate consequences for our oil supply (as Eden found out). 'The PM should be concerned about the Oily Places not the Holy Places.'

    Of course, that may have been a cover for anti-semitic prejudice.
    That's post WWII, though, and hardly a novel development.

    Pre-war antisemitism was not exactly unusual in British society, as this (surprisingly un-judgmental) article suggests:
    https://thecritic.co.uk/issues/august-september-2021/such-such-were-the-goys/

    (Incidentally, I note that both Michael Gove and Theresa May are self proclaimed admirers of Dornford Yates.)
    Most Jews voted Labour until Thatcher and Corbyn of course eg Alan Sugar
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,072
    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    https://twitter.com/KayBurley/status/1559098922697728001

    Can Liz Truss provide evidence to back her suggestion there is "woke" culture in the civil service that "strays into antisemitism"? We asked @BrandonLewis 👇👇 #KayBurley wx

    This was a fucking disgraceful allegation from Truss - and shows she is continuity Johnson. She is a liar.

    There's definitely Woke culture in public infrastructure projects.

    My client is holding a "power games" in Regent's Park on Wednesday evening hosted by the Unite for Race Equality network.

    Have a guess as to how they'll play that.
    Provide evidence there is widespread anti-Semitism in the Civil Service, she used the Jewish Community to further her political agenda.

    Anti-Semitism is something we all take seriously when it is founded. Instead she made the allegation then immediately ran away.

    She is an absolute disgrace - and this has made it clear for me. I will never vote Tory whilst anyone associated with her is in a position of power.
    They are going to hold "egg and spoon" races, and other fun outdoor classics, but ensure that one's starting position in these races is handicapped depending on what "group" you are in - because there must always be an identity politics lesson to be imbibed. Never just neutral fun teambuilding.

    For clarity, that means that a white male I would have to start behind others in the race - probably at the back - and that's the intersectionality lecture delivered.

    That is Wokery and it goes on *all the time*.

    At some point this is going to directly collide with my career ambitions, as I personally cannot abide it but, for now, I will have a "prior engagement" that unfortunately cannot get out of.
    Is that really what they do?!

    Jesus f Christ

    Is this private or public sector?
    The thought of Casino having to start behind in an egg & spoon race in Regents Park because he's white - this is surely an uncalled for humiliation to rank right alongside those caused by the structural racism it is meant to highlight!
    @Casino_Royale should just tell them he self-identifies as Indian due to Indian ancestry. What are these fuckers going to do then? Give him a genetic test? Check to see if he wobbles his head? Race is a social construct so it has no reality anyway, as the same Woke cranks keep telling us

    This is the surreal yet inevitable endpoint of Wokeness. Everyone will self identify as African and gay so they can be first in the company egg and spoon race
    Yada yada.

    The relationship between you and this topic - structural racism - is an odd one indeed. It's a widely acknowledged complex problem but rather than take a pass on it - as posters do all the time on things which either don’t interest them or they can’t get their heads around – what happens is you get angry at the mere mention of it, lashing out at those who take it seriously, risibly making out that to talk about White Privilege is some mortal threat to civilisation, or in lighter vein (which isn’t actually that light) erupting into spasms of “oh god what do we call them this week then?” jocularity, seeking to trivialize the whole thing.

    The term White Fragility is one I realize irritates but tough titty because it also nails a certain specific mindset and set of attitudes and we have living proof of its acuity right here.
    In this case it's surely hyper-irritability rather than fragility ?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,397
    edited August 2022
    Nigelb said:

    ydoethur said:

    Sean_F said:

    TOPPING said:

    fwiw while I have little doubt that the UK civil service and FO was at best anti-Israel and at worst anti-semitic in the past, I would be surprised if there were too many anti-semites there now for precisely the reason (wokeness) that Truss complains of.

    That said, it is easy for those on the left (not you @Stark_Dawning ) to stray into anti-Israel/pro-Palestine/anti-semitism so perhaps that's what she's getting at.

    It was always a theme in Yes Minister that the Civil Service was "pro Arab" (to put it politely).

    It probably was a hangover from Imperial times, when ex colonial administrators had fond memories of the local sheikh or emir offering them a boy for the night, as a form of hospitality.
    I thought it was more simply that the Arabs had oil and the Israelis didn't. Piss off the Arabs and it had unfortunate consequences for our oil supply (as Eden found out). 'The PM should be concerned about the Oily Places not the Holy Places.'

    Of course, that may have been a cover for anti-semitic prejudice.
    That's post WWII, though, and hardly a novel development.

    Pre-war antisemitism was not exactly unusual in British society, as this (surprisingly un-judgmental) article suggests:
    https://thecritic.co.uk/issues/august-september-2021/such-such-were-the-goys/

    (Incidentally, I note that both Michael Gove and Theresa May are self proclaimed admirers of Dornford Yates.)
    The Arabs had oil before WWII, and the Jews were in the process of establishing a new Jewish state in the Mandate of Palestine - to the extent that there was a major rebellion there among the Arabs in 1936-38.

    Not that I am disputing your major point. Have you ever read Kipling's Gehazi?

    (That said, Rufus Isaacs was it at happens a total crook. But that was because he was a greedy fool, not because he was Jewish.)
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,658
    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    https://twitter.com/KayBurley/status/1559098922697728001

    Can Liz Truss provide evidence to back her suggestion there is "woke" culture in the civil service that "strays into antisemitism"? We asked @BrandonLewis 👇👇 #KayBurley wx

    This was a fucking disgraceful allegation from Truss - and shows she is continuity Johnson. She is a liar.

    There's definitely Woke culture in public infrastructure projects.

    My client is holding a "power games" in Regent's Park on Wednesday evening hosted by the Unite for Race Equality network.

    Have a guess as to how they'll play that.
    Provide evidence there is widespread anti-Semitism in the Civil Service, she used the Jewish Community to further her political agenda.

    Anti-Semitism is something we all take seriously when it is founded. Instead she made the allegation then immediately ran away.

    She is an absolute disgrace - and this has made it clear for me. I will never vote Tory whilst anyone associated with her is in a position of power.
    They are going to hold "egg and spoon" races, and other fun outdoor classics, but ensure that one's starting position in these races is handicapped depending on what "group" you are in - because there must always be an identity politics lesson to be imbibed. Never just neutral fun teambuilding.

    For clarity, that means that a white male I would have to start behind others in the race - probably at the back - and that's the intersectionality lecture delivered.

    That is Wokery and it goes on *all the time*.

    At some point this is going to directly collide with my career ambitions, as I personally cannot abide it but, for now, I will have a "prior engagement" that unfortunately cannot get out of.
    Is that really what they do?!

    Jesus f Christ

    Is this private or public sector?
    The thought of Casino having to start behind in an egg & spoon race in Regents Park because he's white - this is surely an uncalled for humiliation to rank right alongside those caused by the structural racism it is meant to highlight!
    @Casino_Royale should just tell them he self-identifies as Indian due to Indian ancestry. What are these fuckers going to do then? Give him a genetic test? Check to see if he wobbles his head? Race is a social construct so it has no reality anyway, as the same Woke cranks keep telling us

    This is the surreal yet inevitable endpoint of Wokeness. Everyone will self identify as African and gay so they can be first in the company egg and spoon race
    Yada yada.

    The relationship between you and this topic - structural racism - is an odd one indeed. It's a widely acknowledged complex problem but rather than take a pass on it - as posters do all the time on things which either don’t interest them or they can’t get their heads around – what happens is you get angry at the mere mention of it, lashing out at those who take it seriously, risibly making out that to talk about White Privilege is some mortal threat to civilisation, or in lighter vein (which isn’t actually that light) erupting into spasms of “oh god what do we call them this week then?” jocularity, seeking to trivialize the whole thing.

    The term White Fragility is one I realize irritates but tough titty because it also nails a certain specific mindset and set of attitudes and we have living proof of its acuity right here.
    So structural racism is a real problem, but straying into antisemitism is a vile lie?

    Jews don't count.
    Discrimination in the UK - a left wing guide:

    Groups the UK discriminates against in the past and now, consciously or unconsciously: blacks, gays, trans people, asians (south and east), muslims, hindus, sikhs, zoroastrians, buddhists, 7th day adventists, mormons (less so since the musical), ufo believers.

    Groups the UK never has and now doesn't discriminate against: jews
    I don't think anyone claims that.

    What we are asking for is evidence that the current Civil Service is anti-semitic.

    Talking of the Paelestinian Mandate administration in the early part of the 20th century is not current.

    Neither are good diplomatic relations with Arab states evidence of anti-semitism.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,531
    edited August 2022

    Bart there just called Margaret Hodge - a Jewish woman - tolerating of anti-Semitism. A self hating Jew.

    So Bart is anti-Semitic. Lovely.

    Whilst not agreeing with Bart, your argument displays no logical consistency. Better to refrain from cheap shots particularly when they are so patently flawed.
    Bart said Margaret Hodge tolerated anti-Semitism by being on the backbenches with Corbyn.

    Not only did Hodge not support Corbyn for leader, she called out anti-Semitism from almost day one of him being elected. She worked night and day to remove him. Nobody sane suggests she actually tolerated anti-Semitism.

    Margaret Hodge is Jewish, Bart implied a Jewish woman tolerates anti-Semitism. It is not a huge stretch to conclude he was being anti-Semitic
    Yes it is a vast gulf of a step. You are tying yourself in knots to try and find some reason to criticise Bart and label him as anti-semeitic simply because you don't like what he says. It is a cheap shot and a wrong one as well.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,962
    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    https://twitter.com/KayBurley/status/1559098922697728001

    Can Liz Truss provide evidence to back her suggestion there is "woke" culture in the civil service that "strays into antisemitism"? We asked @BrandonLewis 👇👇 #KayBurley wx

    This was a fucking disgraceful allegation from Truss - and shows she is continuity Johnson. She is a liar.

    There's definitely Woke culture in public infrastructure projects.

    My client is holding a "power games" in Regent's Park on Wednesday evening hosted by the Unite for Race Equality network.

    Have a guess as to how they'll play that.
    Provide evidence there is widespread anti-Semitism in the Civil Service, she used the Jewish Community to further her political agenda.

    Anti-Semitism is something we all take seriously when it is founded. Instead she made the allegation then immediately ran away.

    She is an absolute disgrace - and this has made it clear for me. I will never vote Tory whilst anyone associated with her is in a position of power.
    They are going to hold "egg and spoon" races, and other fun outdoor classics, but ensure that one's starting position in these races is handicapped depending on what "group" you are in - because there must always be an identity politics lesson to be imbibed. Never just neutral fun teambuilding.

    For clarity, that means that a white male I would have to start behind others in the race - probably at the back - and that's the intersectionality lecture delivered.

    That is Wokery and it goes on *all the time*.

    At some point this is going to directly collide with my career ambitions, as I personally cannot abide it but, for now, I will have a "prior engagement" that unfortunately cannot get out of.
    Is that really what they do?!

    Jesus f Christ

    Is this private or public sector?
    The thought of Casino having to start behind in an egg & spoon race in Regents Park because he's white - this is surely an uncalled for humiliation to rank right alongside those caused by the structural racism it is meant to highlight!
    @Casino_Royale should just tell them he self-identifies as Indian due to Indian ancestry. What are these fuckers going to do then? Give him a genetic test? Check to see if he wobbles his head? Race is a social construct so it has no reality anyway, as the same Woke cranks keep telling us

    This is the surreal yet inevitable endpoint of Wokeness. Everyone will self identify as African and gay so they can be first in the company egg and spoon race
    Yada yada.

    The relationship between you and this topic - structural racism - is an odd one indeed. It's a widely acknowledged complex problem but rather than take a pass on it - as posters do all the time on things which either don’t interest them or they can’t get their heads around – what happens is you get angry at the mere mention of it, lashing out at those who take it seriously, risibly making out that to talk about White Privilege is some mortal threat to civilisation, or in lighter vein (which isn’t actually that light) erupting into spasms of “oh god what do we call them this week then?” jocularity, seeking to trivialize the whole thing.

    The term White Fragility is one I realize irritates but tough titty because it also nails a certain specific mindset and set of attitudes and we have living proof of its acuity right here.
    So structural racism is a real problem, but straying into antisemitism is a vile lie?

    Jews don't count.
    Discrimination in the UK - a left wing guide:

    Groups the UK discriminates against in the past and now, consciously or unconsciously: blacks, gays, trans people, asians (south and east), muslims, hindus, sikhs, zoroastrians, buddhists, 7th day adventists, mormons (less so since the musical), ufo believers.

    Groups the UK never has and now doesn't discriminate against: jews
    Antisemitism in the UK - a right wing guide:

    All the substantial antisemitism of the right in the UK was in the past and committed by a completely different right from that which exists today.

    This was a good one of which I was reminded of by a tweet at the weekend. Good old Manny, the antisemitic Tory was lucky Shinwell didn't put the heid in.

    'Your article (The big fight, G2, 24 February) refers to the “idea of fisticuffs, or worse, to settle differences between political rivals”, mentions the Duke of Wellington’s duel in 1829, and says “We have not seen any such shenanigans since”. On 4 April 1938 in the House of Commons, the Jewish Labour MP Manny Shinwell heavily criticised Neville Chamberlain’s government for not supporting the Popular Front government in Spain during the civil war by its continuing membership of the non-intervention pact. The Tory MP Commander Robert Tatton Bower yelled at him: “Go back to Poland!” Shinwell, construing this as an antisemitic remark, crossed the floor and smacked Bower across the face. This action did not affect Shinwell’s career as he became secretary of state for war in 1947 and later minister for defence. Quite appropriate positions of office!
    Dr Freddy Shaw
    London'
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,153

    Mr. kinabalu, the hypocrisy was and remains amusing, as amusing as it is alarming.

    A drunken fool's ideology that promotes racist nonsense is wretched whether it's bigoted against whites or Jews, or Koreans, or all three. Or blacks, Arabs, and Japanese.

    There are some crass and counterproductive aspects to antiracist thinking and activism- this I can well see. Indeed thanks to Leon we get most of them copied onto here for our perusal and scorn.

    What doesn't get copied in quite so much - in fact at all - are any of the countless depressing little incidents in everyday life that are driven by racism, conscious or unconscious, overt or latent, structural or freelance.

    What I genuinely cannot relate to about what you (and tbf several other right wing inclined posters on here) bring to this whole topic is how you are way more concerned about those aforesaid excesses of antiracism than you are about the thing it seeks to highlight and combat - racism.

    This is the problem with you guys from where I'm sitting.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677
    MattW said:



    Keir Starmer has laid the elephant trap; it is for both candidates to deal with it - if they can stop rearranging deckchairs on the runaway train they are failing to drive.

    Impressive metaphor density.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,309
    eek said:

    Leon said:

    Incidentally, the Jerry Sadowitz Affair has plunged the Fringe into civil war. Hilarious


    “Luke Johnson, co-owner and director of Assembly Festival, the largest venue operator at the Fringe, said Pleasance “can get stuffed telling other venues to ban artists just because they lost their bottle”.

    Given that anyone buying a ticket to Jerry Sadowitz would know exactly what to expect - I do have to wonder how utterly dire the show must have been...
    Apparently all the advertising material for the show actually WARNS that he will “get his dick out” at some point

    So if you went to the show you were warned this would happen, then it happens… and then you complain about it happening. How does that work?

    People went to the show expressly to be offended. They are Victorian prudes with an extra level of absurdity. They are the Whitehouse sub-branch of the Woke
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,359
    MattW said:

    Cyclefree said:

    City of London has lost 14% of its restaurants since 2020
    Hospitality sector in Square Mile hobbled by switch to homeworking

    https://www.ft.com/content/f5f59e08-1dd4-41bb-a6f0-714e5c3ae47e (£££)

    The cost of energy is going to cause difficulties for a lot of retail outlets, not just hospitality.
    Sean_F said:

    A PSCO confronted a woman for having a sticker saying "trans-ideology erases women" on their door.

    @Fox_Claire
    Listen to whole of this. It's freaked me out. Furious too. An official from police explicitly says you can only express your views privately, lectures on need to be better informed re trans, when she spouts misinformation & deploys tears & threats. Coercive & bullying. For a sticker.


    https://mobile.twitter.com/Fox_Claire/status/1558978910645374977

    It's always disturbing when police officers don't actually understand the law that they're trying to enforce.
    It's worse than that. The police officer wasn't misunderstanding a law they were trying to enforce but was making up non-existent laws, in part because they have been wrongly trained to believe that saying something others might disagree with is some sort of "crime".
    Agree.

    Is this not simply a continuation of a long-run trend, part of which is assuming non-existent authority, part of it unacceptable laws, part of it is a long-run practice of abuse of the law to silence differing opinions?

    I think it can be dated to the 1990s laws allowing the issuing of warning letters when no offence has been committed, to politicians using harassment laws tactically to attack / silence political opponents, or even to feminists or others complaining about non-inciting blog comments being "violence" (which iirc was a thing 12-15 years ago at least when I first started writing a blog).

    I'd say the dangerous precedent is pandering to 'offence', police losing track of the neutrality of their role, and the whole 'hate incidents which are not a crime' thing.

    Here's another example of the police wanting to "check your thinking" from 2019.

    https://christianconcern.com/comment/ex-cop-sues-cops-over-hate-speech/
    https://www.spiked-online.com/2019/08/16/nineteen-eighty-four-is-now-a-policing-manual/
    If something is a crime, the police should deal with it. If something is not a crime, it is no concern of theirs.

    Coming up with crap like "hate incidents" blurs that distinction.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,957
    Foxy said:

    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    https://twitter.com/KayBurley/status/1559098922697728001

    Can Liz Truss provide evidence to back her suggestion there is "woke" culture in the civil service that "strays into antisemitism"? We asked @BrandonLewis 👇👇 #KayBurley wx

    This was a fucking disgraceful allegation from Truss - and shows she is continuity Johnson. She is a liar.

    There's definitely Woke culture in public infrastructure projects.

    My client is holding a "power games" in Regent's Park on Wednesday evening hosted by the Unite for Race Equality network.

    Have a guess as to how they'll play that.
    Provide evidence there is widespread anti-Semitism in the Civil Service, she used the Jewish Community to further her political agenda.

    Anti-Semitism is something we all take seriously when it is founded. Instead she made the allegation then immediately ran away.

    She is an absolute disgrace - and this has made it clear for me. I will never vote Tory whilst anyone associated with her is in a position of power.
    They are going to hold "egg and spoon" races, and other fun outdoor classics, but ensure that one's starting position in these races is handicapped depending on what "group" you are in - because there must always be an identity politics lesson to be imbibed. Never just neutral fun teambuilding.

    For clarity, that means that a white male I would have to start behind others in the race - probably at the back - and that's the intersectionality lecture delivered.

    That is Wokery and it goes on *all the time*.

    At some point this is going to directly collide with my career ambitions, as I personally cannot abide it but, for now, I will have a "prior engagement" that unfortunately cannot get out of.
    Is that really what they do?!

    Jesus f Christ

    Is this private or public sector?
    The thought of Casino having to start behind in an egg & spoon race in Regents Park because he's white - this is surely an uncalled for humiliation to rank right alongside those caused by the structural racism it is meant to highlight!
    @Casino_Royale should just tell them he self-identifies as Indian due to Indian ancestry. What are these fuckers going to do then? Give him a genetic test? Check to see if he wobbles his head? Race is a social construct so it has no reality anyway, as the same Woke cranks keep telling us

    This is the surreal yet inevitable endpoint of Wokeness. Everyone will self identify as African and gay so they can be first in the company egg and spoon race
    Yada yada.

    The relationship between you and this topic - structural racism - is an odd one indeed. It's a widely acknowledged complex problem but rather than take a pass on it - as posters do all the time on things which either don’t interest them or they can’t get their heads around – what happens is you get angry at the mere mention of it, lashing out at those who take it seriously, risibly making out that to talk about White Privilege is some mortal threat to civilisation, or in lighter vein (which isn’t actually that light) erupting into spasms of “oh god what do we call them this week then?” jocularity, seeking to trivialize the whole thing.

    The term White Fragility is one I realize irritates but tough titty because it also nails a certain specific mindset and set of attitudes and we have living proof of its acuity right here.
    So structural racism is a real problem, but straying into antisemitism is a vile lie?

    Jews don't count.
    Discrimination in the UK - a left wing guide:

    Groups the UK discriminates against in the past and now, consciously or unconsciously: blacks, gays, trans people, asians (south and east), muslims, hindus, sikhs, zoroastrians, buddhists, 7th day adventists, mormons (less so since the musical), ufo believers.

    Groups the UK never has and now doesn't discriminate against: jews
    I don't think anyone claims that.

    What we are asking for is evidence that the current Civil Service is anti-semitic.

    Talking of the Paelestinian Mandate administration in the early part of the 20th century is not current.

    Neither are good diplomatic relations with Arab states evidence of anti-semitism.
    As I said earlier, I would doubt that there is too much anti-semitism in the civil service today because, ironically, of the "wokeism" that Truss complains of.

    There must be some, of course, as per @BartholomewRoberts' three scenarios so maybe this is just Truss pushing at an open door (I wonder what the reaction would have been if she had railed against homophobia - such virulent dismissal?).

    And there is as we have seen from various sources and posters a healthy "Arabist" tradition in the civil service plus on the left we have also seen with Jezza how pro-palestine/anti-israel can spill over into anti-semitism so again it's not out of the question for the civil service or those left wing members of it.

    In short, like Rumsfeld's known/unknowns, despite initial scepticism of the concept, @BartholomewRoberts has it pretty right in his categories. I'm also #1.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    https://twitter.com/KayBurley/status/1559098922697728001

    Can Liz Truss provide evidence to back her suggestion there is "woke" culture in the civil service that "strays into antisemitism"? We asked @BrandonLewis 👇👇 #KayBurley wx

    This was a fucking disgraceful allegation from Truss - and shows she is continuity Johnson. She is a liar.

    There's definitely Woke culture in public infrastructure projects.

    My client is holding a "power games" in Regent's Park on Wednesday evening hosted by the Unite for Race Equality network.

    Have a guess as to how they'll play that.
    Provide evidence there is widespread anti-Semitism in the Civil Service, she used the Jewish Community to further her political agenda.

    Anti-Semitism is something we all take seriously when it is founded. Instead she made the allegation then immediately ran away.

    She is an absolute disgrace - and this has made it clear for me. I will never vote Tory whilst anyone associated with her is in a position of power.
    They are going to hold "egg and spoon" races, and other fun outdoor classics, but ensure that one's starting position in these races is handicapped depending on what "group" you are in - because there must always be an identity politics lesson to be imbibed. Never just neutral fun teambuilding.

    For clarity, that means that a white male I would have to start behind others in the race - probably at the back - and that's the intersectionality lecture delivered.

    That is Wokery and it goes on *all the time*.

    At some point this is going to directly collide with my career ambitions, as I personally cannot abide it but, for now, I will have a "prior engagement" that unfortunately cannot get out of.
    Is that really what they do?!

    Jesus f Christ

    Is this private or public sector?
    The thought of Casino having to start behind in an egg & spoon race in Regents Park because he's white - this is surely an uncalled for humiliation to rank right alongside those caused by the structural racism it is meant to highlight!
    @Casino_Royale should just tell them he self-identifies as Indian due to Indian ancestry. What are these fuckers going to do then? Give him a genetic test? Check to see if he wobbles his head? Race is a social construct so it has no reality anyway, as the same Woke cranks keep telling us

    This is the surreal yet inevitable endpoint of Wokeness. Everyone will self identify as African and gay so they can be first in the company egg and spoon race
    Yada yada.

    The relationship between you and this topic - structural racism - is an odd one indeed. It's a widely acknowledged complex problem but rather than take a pass on it - as posters do all the time on things which either don’t interest them or they can’t get their heads around – what happens is you get angry at the mere mention of it, lashing out at those who take it seriously, risibly making out that to talk about White Privilege is some mortal threat to civilisation, or in lighter vein (which isn’t actually that light) erupting into spasms of “oh god what do we call them this week then?” jocularity, seeking to trivialize the whole thing.

    The term White Fragility is one I realize irritates but tough titty because it also nails a certain specific mindset and set of attitudes and we have living proof of its acuity right here.
    This week we call them BAGMs. No, really, because BAME is now deemed racist - an evolution I warned you about, you silly old woman, yet you refused to accept would happen - a new term has hoved into view. BAGMs. Black Asian and Global Majority. BAGMs. I expect you’ll be earnestly using it in your tedious, dull, pointlessly effeminate comments for two years before you belatedly realise we’ve all moved onto something else while you were playing Ladies golf

    The Times uses it here in its report of the Sadowitz affair

    “Call for Pleasance boycott after Jerry Sadowitz cancelled”

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/6b67dac4-1c1e-11ed-add4-d333562d46fb?shareToken=fd8f39c0d0d111167bd1c4f7bedd523b
    OK but do you just deny the existence of the structural racism altogether? Forget BAGM vs BAME, forget teaching white 6 year olds about their own innate supremacism, forget skewing med school entry towards relatively unqualified black people, forget egg n spoon races, which we can agree are shit solutions. Do you deny the existence of a problem?
  • MattW said:

    dixiedean said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Liz's plan for the next few weeks is surely to keep everything a bit vague, a detailed plan would get picked apart at this stage (As ANY plan is going to have it's difficulties).
    Once she's in it's a different matter - but the race isn't technically over yet and she doesn't want another regional pay debacle.
    Basically 19 days of shouldering arms to deliveries outside offstump in cricketing terms.

    Unfortunately for her, the August 26 announcement of the new price cap is a 90 mph inswinging Yorker on middle.
    Yes. Liz Truss needs to address it first, otherwise she will be writing 'bottom-sitter' across her forehead.

    Keir Starmer has laid the elephant trap; it is for both candidates to deal with it - if they can stop rearranging deckchairs on the runaway train they are failing to drive.
    The timetable of the election seems pretty perfect for me.

    The voting will be pretty much finished by 26 August anyway so the hustings will be pretty much done with. Once the announcement is made on 26 August there's only one more week (which includes a Bank Holiday) left and then the new PM is in place.

    So no hostages to fortune need to be made now without any knowledge of what's going to be said on 26 August, but from 26 August onwards then whoever wins can say they will introduce plans once if they're elected which can then be done without any unexpected surprises.

    Played smartly the new PM will have a week to discuss but not leak plans with their planned new Chancellor of the Exchequer then hit the ground running once in Downing Street.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,957
    Leon said:

    eek said:

    Leon said:

    Incidentally, the Jerry Sadowitz Affair has plunged the Fringe into civil war. Hilarious


    “Luke Johnson, co-owner and director of Assembly Festival, the largest venue operator at the Fringe, said Pleasance “can get stuffed telling other venues to ban artists just because they lost their bottle”.

    Given that anyone buying a ticket to Jerry Sadowitz would know exactly what to expect - I do have to wonder how utterly dire the show must have been...
    Apparently all the advertising material for the show actually WARNS that he will “get his dick out” at some point

    So if you went to the show you were warned this would happen, then it happens… and then you complain about it happening. How does that work?

    People went to the show expressly to be offended. They are Victorian prudes with an extra level of absurdity. They are the Whitehouse sub-branch of the Woke
    Malcolm Hardee is meanwhile spinning in his grave.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    Dura_Ace said:

    MattW said:



    Keir Starmer has laid the elephant trap; it is for both candidates to deal with it - if they can stop rearranging deckchairs on the runaway train they are failing to drive.

    Impressive metaphor density.
    Delete "drive" and substitute "steer."
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,167

    MattW said:

    dixiedean said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Liz's plan for the next few weeks is surely to keep everything a bit vague, a detailed plan would get picked apart at this stage (As ANY plan is going to have it's difficulties).
    Once she's in it's a different matter - but the race isn't technically over yet and she doesn't want another regional pay debacle.
    Basically 19 days of shouldering arms to deliveries outside offstump in cricketing terms.

    Unfortunately for her, the August 26 announcement of the new price cap is a 90 mph inswinging Yorker on middle.
    Yes. Liz Truss needs to address it first, otherwise she will be writing 'bottom-sitter' across her forehead.

    Keir Starmer has laid the elephant trap; it is for both candidates to deal with it - if they can stop rearranging deckchairs on the runaway train they are failing to drive.
    The timetable of the election seems pretty perfect for me.

    The voting will be pretty much finished by 26 August anyway so the hustings will be pretty much done with. Once the announcement is made on 26 August there's only one more week (which includes a Bank Holiday) left and then the new PM is in place.

    So no hostages to fortune need to be made now without any knowledge of what's going to be said on 26 August, but from 26 August onwards then whoever wins can say they will introduce plans once if they're elected which can then be done without any unexpected surprises.

    Played smartly the new PM will have a week to discuss but not leak plans with their planned new Chancellor of the Exchequer then hit the ground running once in Downing Street.
    Interesting. My view has been that it needs addressing in advance of the announcement of the cap.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,153
    edited August 2022

    Mr. Leon/Mr. kinabalu, indoctrinating children into this nonsense is rather more alarming than some seem to think.

    As this video rather shows:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1I3wJ7pJUjg

    I really do think that children can have an appreciation of the racist legacy of western colonialism - inc the notion of white privilege - without becoming so crippled with personal guilt that they can't tie their own shoelaces.
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,679
    Leon said:

    eek said:

    Leon said:

    Incidentally, the Jerry Sadowitz Affair has plunged the Fringe into civil war. Hilarious


    “Luke Johnson, co-owner and director of Assembly Festival, the largest venue operator at the Fringe, said Pleasance “can get stuffed telling other venues to ban artists just because they lost their bottle”.

    Given that anyone buying a ticket to Jerry Sadowitz would know exactly what to expect - I do have to wonder how utterly dire the show must have been...
    Apparently all the advertising material for the show actually WARNS that he will “get his dick out” at some point

    So if you went to the show you were warned this would happen, then it happens… and then you complain about it happening. How does that work?

    People went to the show expressly to be offended. They are Victorian prudes with an extra level of absurdity. They are the Whitehouse sub-branch of the Woke
    Are we sure it's the woke making the complaints though? One of the biggest offence takers over showbusiness on here - berating the manager of Ronnie Scott's, walking out of comedy shows etc. - is a vociferous anti-woke crusader.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,957
    edited August 2022

    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    https://twitter.com/KayBurley/status/1559098922697728001

    Can Liz Truss provide evidence to back her suggestion there is "woke" culture in the civil service that "strays into antisemitism"? We asked @BrandonLewis 👇👇 #KayBurley wx

    This was a fucking disgraceful allegation from Truss - and shows she is continuity Johnson. She is a liar.

    There's definitely Woke culture in public infrastructure projects.

    My client is holding a "power games" in Regent's Park on Wednesday evening hosted by the Unite for Race Equality network.

    Have a guess as to how they'll play that.
    Provide evidence there is widespread anti-Semitism in the Civil Service, she used the Jewish Community to further her political agenda.

    Anti-Semitism is something we all take seriously when it is founded. Instead she made the allegation then immediately ran away.

    She is an absolute disgrace - and this has made it clear for me. I will never vote Tory whilst anyone associated with her is in a position of power.
    They are going to hold "egg and spoon" races, and other fun outdoor classics, but ensure that one's starting position in these races is handicapped depending on what "group" you are in - because there must always be an identity politics lesson to be imbibed. Never just neutral fun teambuilding.

    For clarity, that means that a white male I would have to start behind others in the race - probably at the back - and that's the intersectionality lecture delivered.

    That is Wokery and it goes on *all the time*.

    At some point this is going to directly collide with my career ambitions, as I personally cannot abide it but, for now, I will have a "prior engagement" that unfortunately cannot get out of.
    Is that really what they do?!

    Jesus f Christ

    Is this private or public sector?
    The thought of Casino having to start behind in an egg & spoon race in Regents Park because he's white - this is surely an uncalled for humiliation to rank right alongside those caused by the structural racism it is meant to highlight!
    @Casino_Royale should just tell them he self-identifies as Indian due to Indian ancestry. What are these fuckers going to do then? Give him a genetic test? Check to see if he wobbles his head? Race is a social construct so it has no reality anyway, as the same Woke cranks keep telling us

    This is the surreal yet inevitable endpoint of Wokeness. Everyone will self identify as African and gay so they can be first in the company egg and spoon race
    Yada yada.

    The relationship between you and this topic - structural racism - is an odd one indeed. It's a widely acknowledged complex problem but rather than take a pass on it - as posters do all the time on things which either don’t interest them or they can’t get their heads around – what happens is you get angry at the mere mention of it, lashing out at those who take it seriously, risibly making out that to talk about White Privilege is some mortal threat to civilisation, or in lighter vein (which isn’t actually that light) erupting into spasms of “oh god what do we call them this week then?” jocularity, seeking to trivialize the whole thing.

    The term White Fragility is one I realize irritates but tough titty because it also nails a certain specific mindset and set of attitudes and we have living proof of its acuity right here.
    So structural racism is a real problem, but straying into antisemitism is a vile lie?

    Jews don't count.
    Discrimination in the UK - a left wing guide:

    Groups the UK discriminates against in the past and now, consciously or unconsciously: blacks, gays, trans people, asians (south and east), muslims, hindus, sikhs, zoroastrians, buddhists, 7th day adventists, mormons (less so since the musical), ufo believers.

    Groups the UK never has and now doesn't discriminate against: jews
    Antisemitism in the UK - a right wing guide:

    All the substantial antisemitism of the right in the UK was in the past and committed by a completely different right from that which exists today.

    This was a good one of which I was reminded of by a tweet at the weekend. Good old Manny, the antisemitic Tory was lucky Shinwell didn't put the heid in.

    'Your article (The big fight, G2, 24 February) refers to the “idea of fisticuffs, or worse, to settle differences between political rivals”, mentions the Duke of Wellington’s duel in 1829, and says “We have not seen any such shenanigans since”. On 4 April 1938 in the House of Commons, the Jewish Labour MP Manny Shinwell heavily criticised Neville Chamberlain’s government for not supporting the Popular Front government in Spain during the civil war by its continuing membership of the non-intervention pact. The Tory MP Commander Robert Tatton Bower yelled at him: “Go back to Poland!” Shinwell, construing this as an antisemitic remark, crossed the floor and smacked Bower across the face. This action did not affect Shinwell’s career as he became secretary of state for war in 1947 and later minister for defence. Quite appropriate positions of office!
    Dr Freddy Shaw
    London'
    Oh yes of course the right wing has been historically and virulently anti-semitic. Someone mentioned Yes Minister confirming the Arabist tendency in the civil service and at that time there weren't too many left wingers there I'm sure.

    That's a given. Or it was. But to temper that slightly we have now had the Cons with a Jew as leader quite recently and their would-be leader pointing out the presence of anti-semitism in one of our institutions.

    So it is not exonerating the right to point out the gross hypocrisy of the left.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,269
    Sean_F said:

    MattW said:

    Cyclefree said:

    City of London has lost 14% of its restaurants since 2020
    Hospitality sector in Square Mile hobbled by switch to homeworking

    https://www.ft.com/content/f5f59e08-1dd4-41bb-a6f0-714e5c3ae47e (£££)

    The cost of energy is going to cause difficulties for a lot of retail outlets, not just hospitality.
    Sean_F said:

    A PSCO confronted a woman for having a sticker saying "trans-ideology erases women" on their door.

    @Fox_Claire
    Listen to whole of this. It's freaked me out. Furious too. An official from police explicitly says you can only express your views privately, lectures on need to be better informed re trans, when she spouts misinformation & deploys tears & threats. Coercive & bullying. For a sticker.


    https://mobile.twitter.com/Fox_Claire/status/1558978910645374977

    It's always disturbing when police officers don't actually understand the law that they're trying to enforce.
    It's worse than that. The police officer wasn't misunderstanding a law they were trying to enforce but was making up non-existent laws, in part because they have been wrongly trained to believe that saying something others might disagree with is some sort of "crime".
    Agree.

    Is this not simply a continuation of a long-run trend, part of which is assuming non-existent authority, part of it unacceptable laws, part of it is a long-run practice of abuse of the law to silence differing opinions?

    I think it can be dated to the 1990s laws allowing the issuing of warning letters when no offence has been committed, to politicians using harassment laws tactically to attack / silence political opponents, or even to feminists or others complaining about non-inciting blog comments being "violence" (which iirc was a thing 12-15 years ago at least when I first started writing a blog).

    I'd say the dangerous precedent is pandering to 'offence', police losing track of the neutrality of their role, and the whole 'hate incidents which are not a crime' thing.

    Here's another example of the police wanting to "check your thinking" from 2019.

    https://christianconcern.com/comment/ex-cop-sues-cops-over-hate-speech/
    https://www.spiked-online.com/2019/08/16/nineteen-eighty-four-is-now-a-policing-manual/
    If something is a crime, the police should deal with it. If something is not a crime, it is no concern of theirs.

    Coming up with crap like "hate incidents" blurs that distinction.
    When an acquaintance was stopped in the street as part of The War On Photography, he reported the matter as a hate crime against him. On the grounds that he had fled from a police state (Iran) and found a police state here extremely traumatic. Since the whole “it’s a hate crime if the person perceived it”, he forced them to record it as such….
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    TOPPING said:

    Leon said:

    eek said:

    Leon said:

    Incidentally, the Jerry Sadowitz Affair has plunged the Fringe into civil war. Hilarious


    “Luke Johnson, co-owner and director of Assembly Festival, the largest venue operator at the Fringe, said Pleasance “can get stuffed telling other venues to ban artists just because they lost their bottle”.

    Given that anyone buying a ticket to Jerry Sadowitz would know exactly what to expect - I do have to wonder how utterly dire the show must have been...
    Apparently all the advertising material for the show actually WARNS that he will “get his dick out” at some point

    So if you went to the show you were warned this would happen, then it happens… and then you complain about it happening. How does that work?

    People went to the show expressly to be offended. They are Victorian prudes with an extra level of absurdity. They are the Whitehouse sub-branch of the Woke
    Malcolm Hardee is meanwhile spinning in his grave.
    An impressive character on any number of levels

    "The search commenced at 10:00 am. At 10:24 am one of the officers came up and said he had found a lifeless body. I followed the officer's line down. Six metres down I saw a white male. The male had a bottle of beer clenched in his right hand."
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,790
    Mr. kinabalu, a worldview that claims to be anti-racist is not if it seeks to actively discriminate against a race.

    The 'punching up' line some adopt (whether due to stupidity or malevolence) is how some try and excuse it. But normalising racism is inherently a bad thing, and the argument it's ok against one particular race (whites) is the kind of unwitting and unthinking irony that gave us the splendidly named Women And Equalities Committee. It also leads to a casual disregard for concerns of some just because they're white (as Rotherham and many, many other places proved).
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,072
    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    ydoethur said:

    Sean_F said:

    TOPPING said:

    fwiw while I have little doubt that the UK civil service and FO was at best anti-Israel and at worst anti-semitic in the past, I would be surprised if there were too many anti-semites there now for precisely the reason (wokeness) that Truss complains of.

    That said, it is easy for those on the left (not you @Stark_Dawning ) to stray into anti-Israel/pro-Palestine/anti-semitism so perhaps that's what she's getting at.

    It was always a theme in Yes Minister that the Civil Service was "pro Arab" (to put it politely).

    It probably was a hangover from Imperial times, when ex colonial administrators had fond memories of the local sheikh or emir offering them a boy for the night, as a form of hospitality.
    I thought it was more simply that the Arabs had oil and the Israelis didn't. Piss off the Arabs and it had unfortunate consequences for our oil supply (as Eden found out). 'The PM should be concerned about the Oily Places not the Holy Places.'

    Of course, that may have been a cover for anti-semitic prejudice.
    That's post WWII, though, and hardly a novel development.

    Pre-war antisemitism was not exactly unusual in British society, as this (surprisingly un-judgmental) article suggests:
    https://thecritic.co.uk/issues/august-september-2021/such-such-were-the-goys/

    (Incidentally, I note that both Michael Gove and Theresa May are self proclaimed admirers of Dornford Yates.)
    The Arabs had oil before WWII, and the Jews were in the process of establishing a new Jewish state in the Mandate of Palestine - to the extent that there was a major rebellion there among the Arabs in 1936-38.

    Not that I am disputing your major point. Have you ever read Kipling's Gehazi?

    (That said, Rufus Isaacs was it at happens a total crook. But that was because he was a greedy fool, not because he was Jewish.)
    Certainly, the Anglo-Persian Oil Company started production just before WWI, but the more relevant discoveries in (eg) Bahrain and Saudi Arabia were shortly before WWII.

    Have you ever read Kipling's Gehazi?
    No, but I might now.
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 21,984
    edited August 2022
    MattW said:

    MattW said:

    dixiedean said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Liz's plan for the next few weeks is surely to keep everything a bit vague, a detailed plan would get picked apart at this stage (As ANY plan is going to have it's difficulties).
    Once she's in it's a different matter - but the race isn't technically over yet and she doesn't want another regional pay debacle.
    Basically 19 days of shouldering arms to deliveries outside offstump in cricketing terms.

    Unfortunately for her, the August 26 announcement of the new price cap is a 90 mph inswinging Yorker on middle.
    Yes. Liz Truss needs to address it first, otherwise she will be writing 'bottom-sitter' across her forehead.

    Keir Starmer has laid the elephant trap; it is for both candidates to deal with it - if they can stop rearranging deckchairs on the runaway train they are failing to drive.
    The timetable of the election seems pretty perfect for me.

    The voting will be pretty much finished by 26 August anyway so the hustings will be pretty much done with. Once the announcement is made on 26 August there's only one more week (which includes a Bank Holiday) left and then the new PM is in place.

    So no hostages to fortune need to be made now without any knowledge of what's going to be said on 26 August, but from 26 August onwards then whoever wins can say they will introduce plans once if they're elected which can then be done without any unexpected surprises.

    Played smartly the new PM will have a week to discuss but not leak plans with their planned new Chancellor of the Exchequer then hit the ground running once in Downing Street.
    Interesting. My view has been that it needs addressing in advance of the announcement of the cap.
    Why?

    After the cap is announced, but before it comes into place, seems to be the ideal time to arrange any announcements. Do it too prematurely and any support suggested might not be deemed sufficent/appropriate once it is announced.

    By getting the cap announcement after voting is pretty much finished, but before the new PM takes office, pretty much dead balls the announcement politically so that the new PM can come in without any shocks and deal with it however is best deemed fit.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,153

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    https://twitter.com/KayBurley/status/1559098922697728001

    Can Liz Truss provide evidence to back her suggestion there is "woke" culture in the civil service that "strays into antisemitism"? We asked @BrandonLewis 👇👇 #KayBurley wx

    This was a fucking disgraceful allegation from Truss - and shows she is continuity Johnson. She is a liar.

    There's definitely Woke culture in public infrastructure projects.

    My client is holding a "power games" in Regent's Park on Wednesday evening hosted by the Unite for Race Equality network.

    Have a guess as to how they'll play that.
    Provide evidence there is widespread anti-Semitism in the Civil Service, she used the Jewish Community to further her political agenda.

    Anti-Semitism is something we all take seriously when it is founded. Instead she made the allegation then immediately ran away.

    She is an absolute disgrace - and this has made it clear for me. I will never vote Tory whilst anyone associated with her is in a position of power.
    They are going to hold "egg and spoon" races, and other fun outdoor classics, but ensure that one's starting position in these races is handicapped depending on what "group" you are in - because there must always be an identity politics lesson to be imbibed. Never just neutral fun teambuilding.

    For clarity, that means that a white male I would have to start behind others in the race - probably at the back - and that's the intersectionality lecture delivered.

    That is Wokery and it goes on *all the time*.

    At some point this is going to directly collide with my career ambitions, as I personally cannot abide it but, for now, I will have a "prior engagement" that unfortunately cannot get out of.
    Is that really what they do?!

    Jesus f Christ

    Is this private or public sector?
    The thought of Casino having to start behind in an egg & spoon race in Regents Park because he's white - this is surely an uncalled for humiliation to rank right alongside those caused by the structural racism it is meant to highlight!
    @Casino_Royale should just tell them he self-identifies as Indian due to Indian ancestry. What are these fuckers going to do then? Give him a genetic test? Check to see if he wobbles his head? Race is a social construct so it has no reality anyway, as the same Woke cranks keep telling us

    This is the surreal yet inevitable endpoint of Wokeness. Everyone will self identify as African and gay so they can be first in the company egg and spoon race
    Yada yada.

    The relationship between you and this topic - structural racism - is an odd one indeed. It's a widely acknowledged complex problem but rather than take a pass on it - as posters do all the time on things which either don’t interest them or they can’t get their heads around – what happens is you get angry at the mere mention of it, lashing out at those who take it seriously, risibly making out that to talk about White Privilege is some mortal threat to civilisation, or in lighter vein (which isn’t actually that light) erupting into spasms of “oh god what do we call them this week then?” jocularity, seeking to trivialize the whole thing.

    The term White Fragility is one I realize irritates but tough titty because it also nails a certain specific mindset and set of attitudes and we have living proof of its acuity right here.
    So structural racism is a real problem, but straying into antisemitism is a vile lie?

    Jews don't count.
    Return to sender. Poster who said "accusations of antisemitism are always a vile lie" unknown.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,359
    Nigelb said:

    ydoethur said:

    Sean_F said:

    TOPPING said:

    fwiw while I have little doubt that the UK civil service and FO was at best anti-Israel and at worst anti-semitic in the past, I would be surprised if there were too many anti-semites there now for precisely the reason (wokeness) that Truss complains of.

    That said, it is easy for those on the left (not you @Stark_Dawning ) to stray into anti-Israel/pro-Palestine/anti-semitism so perhaps that's what she's getting at.

    It was always a theme in Yes Minister that the Civil Service was "pro Arab" (to put it politely).

    It probably was a hangover from Imperial times, when ex colonial administrators had fond memories of the local sheikh or emir offering them a boy for the night, as a form of hospitality.
    I thought it was more simply that the Arabs had oil and the Israelis didn't. Piss off the Arabs and it had unfortunate consequences for our oil supply (as Eden found out). 'The PM should be concerned about the Oily Places not the Holy Places.'

    Of course, that may have been a cover for anti-semitic prejudice.
    That's post WWII, though, and hardly a novel development.

    Pre-war antisemitism was not exactly unusual in British society, as this (surprisingly un-judgmental) article suggests:
    https://thecritic.co.uk/issues/august-september-2021/such-such-were-the-goys/

    (Incidentally, I note that both Michael Gove and Theresa May are self proclaimed admirers of Dornford Yates.)
    Trollope has characters complaining "his greasy Israelitish smile", "a swarthy son of Judah", "a man whose father was probably selling matchsticks in Whitechapel". He had an especial loathing for Jews who converted to Christianity, who he saw as wolves in sheep's clothing. Mr. Melius, a popular preacher, is an immigrant from Bohemia and born a Jew, which makes him very suspect. It turns out, he is guilty of bigamy, and all good-thinking folk applaud when he gets ten years' imprisonment for it.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,957
    Sean_F said:

    Nigelb said:

    ydoethur said:

    Sean_F said:

    TOPPING said:

    fwiw while I have little doubt that the UK civil service and FO was at best anti-Israel and at worst anti-semitic in the past, I would be surprised if there were too many anti-semites there now for precisely the reason (wokeness) that Truss complains of.

    That said, it is easy for those on the left (not you @Stark_Dawning ) to stray into anti-Israel/pro-Palestine/anti-semitism so perhaps that's what she's getting at.

    It was always a theme in Yes Minister that the Civil Service was "pro Arab" (to put it politely).

    It probably was a hangover from Imperial times, when ex colonial administrators had fond memories of the local sheikh or emir offering them a boy for the night, as a form of hospitality.
    I thought it was more simply that the Arabs had oil and the Israelis didn't. Piss off the Arabs and it had unfortunate consequences for our oil supply (as Eden found out). 'The PM should be concerned about the Oily Places not the Holy Places.'

    Of course, that may have been a cover for anti-semitic prejudice.
    That's post WWII, though, and hardly a novel development.

    Pre-war antisemitism was not exactly unusual in British society, as this (surprisingly un-judgmental) article suggests:
    https://thecritic.co.uk/issues/august-september-2021/such-such-were-the-goys/

    (Incidentally, I note that both Michael Gove and Theresa May are self proclaimed admirers of Dornford Yates.)
    Trollope has characters complaining "his greasy Israelitish smile", "a swarthy son of Judah", "a man whose father was probably selling matchsticks in Whitechapel". He had an especial loathing for Jews who converted to Christianity, who he saw as wolves in sheep's clothing. Mr. Melius, a popular preacher, is an immigrant from Bohemia and born a Jew, which makes him very suspect. It turns out, he is guilty of bigamy, and all good-thinking folk applaud when he gets ten years' imprisonment for it.
    Plus there is, you know, the biggie Jew from literature.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,167
    Sean_F said:

    MattW said:

    Cyclefree said:

    City of London has lost 14% of its restaurants since 2020
    Hospitality sector in Square Mile hobbled by switch to homeworking

    https://www.ft.com/content/f5f59e08-1dd4-41bb-a6f0-714e5c3ae47e (£££)

    The cost of energy is going to cause difficulties for a lot of retail outlets, not just hospitality.
    Sean_F said:

    A PSCO confronted a woman for having a sticker saying "trans-ideology erases women" on their door.

    @Fox_Claire
    Listen to whole of this. It's freaked me out. Furious too. An official from police explicitly says you can only express your views privately, lectures on need to be better informed re trans, when she spouts misinformation & deploys tears & threats. Coercive & bullying. For a sticker.


    https://mobile.twitter.com/Fox_Claire/status/1558978910645374977

    It's always disturbing when police officers don't actually understand the law that they're trying to enforce.
    It's worse than that. The police officer wasn't misunderstanding a law they were trying to enforce but was making up non-existent laws, in part because they have been wrongly trained to believe that saying something others might disagree with is some sort of "crime".
    Agree.

    Is this not simply a continuation of a long-run trend, part of which is assuming non-existent authority, part of it unacceptable laws, part of it is a long-run practice of abuse of the law to silence differing opinions?

    I think it can be dated to the 1990s laws allowing the issuing of warning letters when no offence has been committed, to politicians using harassment laws tactically to attack / silence political opponents, or even to feminists or others complaining about non-inciting blog comments being "violence" (which iirc was a thing 12-15 years ago at least when I first started writing a blog).

    I'd say the dangerous precedent is pandering to 'offence', police losing track of the neutrality of their role, and the whole 'hate incidents which are not a crime' thing.

    Here's another example of the police wanting to "check your thinking" from 2019.

    https://christianconcern.com/comment/ex-cop-sues-cops-over-hate-speech/
    https://www.spiked-online.com/2019/08/16/nineteen-eighty-four-is-now-a-policing-manual/
    If something is a crime, the police should deal with it. If something is not a crime, it is no concern of theirs.

    Coming up with crap like "hate incidents" blurs that distinction.
    It's interesting that in the second case I cite, the complainant won a Judicial Review for police guidelines being unlawful.

    https://www.lawgazette.co.uk/news/court-of-appeal-rules-police-hate-incidents-guidance-unlawful/5110987.article
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,072
    Dura_Ace said:

    MattW said:



    Keir Starmer has laid the elephant trap; it is for both candidates to deal with it - if they can stop rearranging deckchairs on the runaway train they are failing to drive.

    Impressive metaphor density.
    Laying an elephant tramp in attempt to derail a train is quite an interesting one regarding Starmer.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,957
    edited August 2022
    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    https://twitter.com/KayBurley/status/1559098922697728001

    Can Liz Truss provide evidence to back her suggestion there is "woke" culture in the civil service that "strays into antisemitism"? We asked @BrandonLewis 👇👇 #KayBurley wx

    This was a fucking disgraceful allegation from Truss - and shows she is continuity Johnson. She is a liar.

    There's definitely Woke culture in public infrastructure projects.

    My client is holding a "power games" in Regent's Park on Wednesday evening hosted by the Unite for Race Equality network.

    Have a guess as to how they'll play that.
    Provide evidence there is widespread anti-Semitism in the Civil Service, she used the Jewish Community to further her political agenda.

    Anti-Semitism is something we all take seriously when it is founded. Instead she made the allegation then immediately ran away.

    She is an absolute disgrace - and this has made it clear for me. I will never vote Tory whilst anyone associated with her is in a position of power.
    They are going to hold "egg and spoon" races, and other fun outdoor classics, but ensure that one's starting position in these races is handicapped depending on what "group" you are in - because there must always be an identity politics lesson to be imbibed. Never just neutral fun teambuilding.

    For clarity, that means that a white male I would have to start behind others in the race - probably at the back - and that's the intersectionality lecture delivered.

    That is Wokery and it goes on *all the time*.

    At some point this is going to directly collide with my career ambitions, as I personally cannot abide it but, for now, I will have a "prior engagement" that unfortunately cannot get out of.
    Is that really what they do?!

    Jesus f Christ

    Is this private or public sector?
    The thought of Casino having to start behind in an egg & spoon race in Regents Park because he's white - this is surely an uncalled for humiliation to rank right alongside those caused by the structural racism it is meant to highlight!
    @Casino_Royale should just tell them he self-identifies as Indian due to Indian ancestry. What are these fuckers going to do then? Give him a genetic test? Check to see if he wobbles his head? Race is a social construct so it has no reality anyway, as the same Woke cranks keep telling us

    This is the surreal yet inevitable endpoint of Wokeness. Everyone will self identify as African and gay so they can be first in the company egg and spoon race
    Yada yada.

    The relationship between you and this topic - structural racism - is an odd one indeed. It's a widely acknowledged complex problem but rather than take a pass on it - as posters do all the time on things which either don’t interest them or they can’t get their heads around – what happens is you get angry at the mere mention of it, lashing out at those who take it seriously, risibly making out that to talk about White Privilege is some mortal threat to civilisation, or in lighter vein (which isn’t actually that light) erupting into spasms of “oh god what do we call them this week then?” jocularity, seeking to trivialize the whole thing.

    The term White Fragility is one I realize irritates but tough titty because it also nails a certain specific mindset and set of attitudes and we have living proof of its acuity right here.
    So structural racism is a real problem, but straying into antisemitism is a vile lie?

    Jews don't count.
    Discrimination in the UK - a left wing guide:

    Groups the UK discriminates against in the past and now, consciously or unconsciously: blacks, gays, trans people, asians (south and east), muslims, hindus, sikhs, zoroastrians, buddhists, 7th day adventists, mormons (less so since the musical), ufo believers.

    Groups the UK never has and now doesn't discriminate against: jews
    Antisemitism in the UK - a right wing guide:

    All the substantial antisemitism of the right in the UK was in the past and committed by a completely different right from that which exists today.

    This was a good one of which I was reminded of by a tweet at the weekend. Good old Manny, the antisemitic Tory was lucky Shinwell didn't put the heid in.

    'Your article (The big fight, G2, 24 February) refers to the “idea of fisticuffs, or worse, to settle differences between political rivals”, mentions the Duke of Wellington’s duel in 1829, and says “We have not seen any such shenanigans since”. On 4 April 1938 in the House of Commons, the Jewish Labour MP Manny Shinwell heavily criticised Neville Chamberlain’s government for not supporting the Popular Front government in Spain during the civil war by its continuing membership of the non-intervention pact. The Tory MP Commander Robert Tatton Bower yelled at him: “Go back to Poland!” Shinwell, construing this as an antisemitic remark, crossed the floor and smacked Bower across the face. This action did not affect Shinwell’s career as he became secretary of state for war in 1947 and later minister for defence. Quite appropriate positions of office!
    Dr Freddy Shaw
    London'
    Oh yes of course the right wing has been historically and virulently anti-semitic. Someone mentioned Yes Minister confirming the Arabist tendency in the civil service and at that time there weren't too many left wingers there I'm sure.

    That's a given. Or it was. But to temper that slightly we have now had the Cons with a Jew as leader quite recently and their would-be leader pointing out the presence of anti-semitism in one of our institutions.

    So it is not exonerating the right to point out the gross hypocrisy of the left.
    @Theuniondivvie

    And of course there was the "estonian/etonian" jibe (made by a right winger, if the story is correct, about his own party). So some growing pains/confusion there hondootedly.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,153
    edited August 2022
    Nigelb said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    https://twitter.com/KayBurley/status/1559098922697728001

    Can Liz Truss provide evidence to back her suggestion there is "woke" culture in the civil service that "strays into antisemitism"? We asked @BrandonLewis 👇👇 #KayBurley wx

    This was a fucking disgraceful allegation from Truss - and shows she is continuity Johnson. She is a liar.

    There's definitely Woke culture in public infrastructure projects.

    My client is holding a "power games" in Regent's Park on Wednesday evening hosted by the Unite for Race Equality network.

    Have a guess as to how they'll play that.
    Provide evidence there is widespread anti-Semitism in the Civil Service, she used the Jewish Community to further her political agenda.

    Anti-Semitism is something we all take seriously when it is founded. Instead she made the allegation then immediately ran away.

    She is an absolute disgrace - and this has made it clear for me. I will never vote Tory whilst anyone associated with her is in a position of power.
    They are going to hold "egg and spoon" races, and other fun outdoor classics, but ensure that one's starting position in these races is handicapped depending on what "group" you are in - because there must always be an identity politics lesson to be imbibed. Never just neutral fun teambuilding.

    For clarity, that means that a white male I would have to start behind others in the race - probably at the back - and that's the intersectionality lecture delivered.

    That is Wokery and it goes on *all the time*.

    At some point this is going to directly collide with my career ambitions, as I personally cannot abide it but, for now, I will have a "prior engagement" that unfortunately cannot get out of.
    Is that really what they do?!

    Jesus f Christ

    Is this private or public sector?
    The thought of Casino having to start behind in an egg & spoon race in Regents Park because he's white - this is surely an uncalled for humiliation to rank right alongside those caused by the structural racism it is meant to highlight!
    @Casino_Royale should just tell them he self-identifies as Indian due to Indian ancestry. What are these fuckers going to do then? Give him a genetic test? Check to see if he wobbles his head? Race is a social construct so it has no reality anyway, as the same Woke cranks keep telling us

    This is the surreal yet inevitable endpoint of Wokeness. Everyone will self identify as African and gay so they can be first in the company egg and spoon race
    Yada yada.

    The relationship between you and this topic - structural racism - is an odd one indeed. It's a widely acknowledged complex problem but rather than take a pass on it - as posters do all the time on things which either don’t interest them or they can’t get their heads around – what happens is you get angry at the mere mention of it, lashing out at those who take it seriously, risibly making out that to talk about White Privilege is some mortal threat to civilisation, or in lighter vein (which isn’t actually that light) erupting into spasms of “oh god what do we call them this week then?” jocularity, seeking to trivialize the whole thing.

    The term White Fragility is one I realize irritates but tough titty because it also nails a certain specific mindset and set of attitudes and we have living proof of its acuity right here.
    In this case it's surely hyper-irritability rather than fragility ?
    The "fragility" is certainly not such that the commentary wanes even one iota.

    Ah well, grist, mill etc, works both ways - :smile:
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,720
    Hugo Gye
    @HugoGye
    In 🇩🇪: cut gas use by 20% or there will be rationing over winter, households & businesses are told.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,309
    kinabalu said:

    Mr. kinabalu, the hypocrisy was and remains amusing, as amusing as it is alarming.

    A drunken fool's ideology that promotes racist nonsense is wretched whether it's bigoted against whites or Jews, or Koreans, or all three. Or blacks, Arabs, and Japanese.

    There are some crass and counterproductive aspects to antiracist thinking and activism- this I can well see. Indeed thanks to Leon we get most of them copied onto here for our perusal and scorn.

    What doesn't get copied in quite so much - in fact at all - are any of the countless depressing little incidents in everyday life that are driven by racism, conscious or unconscious, overt or latent, structural or freelance.

    What I genuinely cannot relate to about what you (and tbf several other right wing inclined posters on here) bring to this whole topic is how you are way more concerned about those aforesaid excesses of antiracism than you are about the thing it seeks to highlight and combat - racism.

    This is the problem with you guys from where I'm sitting.
    The problem with you, the ENORMOUS problem with you, is that you are up yourself, so glistening with the slime of moral self regard, you fail to see that Wokeness is taking a fucking wrecking ball to the Enlightenment, and also encouraging and cementing the racial divisions you pretend to worry about . Perhaps it is because you simply don't care? I do not think you are that callous. I think it is because you are actually quite stupid, and narrow minded, as we have established, on here, passim
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 21,984
    edited August 2022
    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    https://twitter.com/KayBurley/status/1559098922697728001

    Can Liz Truss provide evidence to back her suggestion there is "woke" culture in the civil service that "strays into antisemitism"? We asked @BrandonLewis 👇👇 #KayBurley wx

    This was a fucking disgraceful allegation from Truss - and shows she is continuity Johnson. She is a liar.

    There's definitely Woke culture in public infrastructure projects.

    My client is holding a "power games" in Regent's Park on Wednesday evening hosted by the Unite for Race Equality network.

    Have a guess as to how they'll play that.
    Provide evidence there is widespread anti-Semitism in the Civil Service, she used the Jewish Community to further her political agenda.

    Anti-Semitism is something we all take seriously when it is founded. Instead she made the allegation then immediately ran away.

    She is an absolute disgrace - and this has made it clear for me. I will never vote Tory whilst anyone associated with her is in a position of power.
    They are going to hold "egg and spoon" races, and other fun outdoor classics, but ensure that one's starting position in these races is handicapped depending on what "group" you are in - because there must always be an identity politics lesson to be imbibed. Never just neutral fun teambuilding.

    For clarity, that means that a white male I would have to start behind others in the race - probably at the back - and that's the intersectionality lecture delivered.

    That is Wokery and it goes on *all the time*.

    At some point this is going to directly collide with my career ambitions, as I personally cannot abide it but, for now, I will have a "prior engagement" that unfortunately cannot get out of.
    Is that really what they do?!

    Jesus f Christ

    Is this private or public sector?
    The thought of Casino having to start behind in an egg & spoon race in Regents Park because he's white - this is surely an uncalled for humiliation to rank right alongside those caused by the structural racism it is meant to highlight!
    @Casino_Royale should just tell them he self-identifies as Indian due to Indian ancestry. What are these fuckers going to do then? Give him a genetic test? Check to see if he wobbles his head? Race is a social construct so it has no reality anyway, as the same Woke cranks keep telling us

    This is the surreal yet inevitable endpoint of Wokeness. Everyone will self identify as African and gay so they can be first in the company egg and spoon race
    Yada yada.

    The relationship between you and this topic - structural racism - is an odd one indeed. It's a widely acknowledged complex problem but rather than take a pass on it - as posters do all the time on things which either don’t interest them or they can’t get their heads around – what happens is you get angry at the mere mention of it, lashing out at those who take it seriously, risibly making out that to talk about White Privilege is some mortal threat to civilisation, or in lighter vein (which isn’t actually that light) erupting into spasms of “oh god what do we call them this week then?” jocularity, seeking to trivialize the whole thing.

    The term White Fragility is one I realize irritates but tough titty because it also nails a certain specific mindset and set of attitudes and we have living proof of its acuity right here.
    So structural racism is a real problem, but straying into antisemitism is a vile lie?

    Jews don't count.
    Return to sender. Poster who said "accusations of antisemitism are always a vile lie" unknown.
    I didn't say always.

    On this thread @Theuniondivvie @Northern_Al @CorrectHorseBattery and yourself have all angrily suggested that straying into antisemitism as alleged by Truss was a lie.

    Meanwhile you're banging on about "Fragility" and "structural" racism.

    Who is the "Fragile" one really, when comments as mild as Trusses about "straying into" racism attract such vitriol?

    Racism is Structural against every race apart from Jews it seems?

    Which is it, is structural racism real including against Jews, or is racism real but uniquely Jews don't count?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,072
    TOPPING said:

    Sean_F said:

    Nigelb said:

    ydoethur said:

    Sean_F said:

    TOPPING said:

    fwiw while I have little doubt that the UK civil service and FO was at best anti-Israel and at worst anti-semitic in the past, I would be surprised if there were too many anti-semites there now for precisely the reason (wokeness) that Truss complains of.

    That said, it is easy for those on the left (not you @Stark_Dawning ) to stray into anti-Israel/pro-Palestine/anti-semitism so perhaps that's what she's getting at.

    It was always a theme in Yes Minister that the Civil Service was "pro Arab" (to put it politely).

    It probably was a hangover from Imperial times, when ex colonial administrators had fond memories of the local sheikh or emir offering them a boy for the night, as a form of hospitality.
    I thought it was more simply that the Arabs had oil and the Israelis didn't. Piss off the Arabs and it had unfortunate consequences for our oil supply (as Eden found out). 'The PM should be concerned about the Oily Places not the Holy Places.'

    Of course, that may have been a cover for anti-semitic prejudice.
    That's post WWII, though, and hardly a novel development.

    Pre-war antisemitism was not exactly unusual in British society, as this (surprisingly un-judgmental) article suggests:
    https://thecritic.co.uk/issues/august-september-2021/such-such-were-the-goys/

    (Incidentally, I note that both Michael Gove and Theresa May are self proclaimed admirers of Dornford Yates.)
    Trollope has characters complaining "his greasy Israelitish smile", "a swarthy son of Judah", "a man whose father was probably selling matchsticks in Whitechapel". He had an especial loathing for Jews who converted to Christianity, who he saw as wolves in sheep's clothing. Mr. Melius, a popular preacher, is an immigrant from Bohemia and born a Jew, which makes him very suspect. It turns out, he is guilty of bigamy, and all good-thinking folk applaud when he gets ten years' imprisonment for it.
    Plus there is, you know, the biggie Jew from literature.
    St. Paul... Jesus ?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,309
    IshmaelZ said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    https://twitter.com/KayBurley/status/1559098922697728001

    Can Liz Truss provide evidence to back her suggestion there is "woke" culture in the civil service that "strays into antisemitism"? We asked @BrandonLewis 👇👇 #KayBurley wx

    This was a fucking disgraceful allegation from Truss - and shows she is continuity Johnson. She is a liar.

    There's definitely Woke culture in public infrastructure projects.

    My client is holding a "power games" in Regent's Park on Wednesday evening hosted by the Unite for Race Equality network.

    Have a guess as to how they'll play that.
    Provide evidence there is widespread anti-Semitism in the Civil Service, she used the Jewish Community to further her political agenda.

    Anti-Semitism is something we all take seriously when it is founded. Instead she made the allegation then immediately ran away.

    She is an absolute disgrace - and this has made it clear for me. I will never vote Tory whilst anyone associated with her is in a position of power.
    They are going to hold "egg and spoon" races, and other fun outdoor classics, but ensure that one's starting position in these races is handicapped depending on what "group" you are in - because there must always be an identity politics lesson to be imbibed. Never just neutral fun teambuilding.

    For clarity, that means that a white male I would have to start behind others in the race - probably at the back - and that's the intersectionality lecture delivered.

    That is Wokery and it goes on *all the time*.

    At some point this is going to directly collide with my career ambitions, as I personally cannot abide it but, for now, I will have a "prior engagement" that unfortunately cannot get out of.
    Is that really what they do?!

    Jesus f Christ

    Is this private or public sector?
    The thought of Casino having to start behind in an egg & spoon race in Regents Park because he's white - this is surely an uncalled for humiliation to rank right alongside those caused by the structural racism it is meant to highlight!
    @Casino_Royale should just tell them he self-identifies as Indian due to Indian ancestry. What are these fuckers going to do then? Give him a genetic test? Check to see if he wobbles his head? Race is a social construct so it has no reality anyway, as the same Woke cranks keep telling us

    This is the surreal yet inevitable endpoint of Wokeness. Everyone will self identify as African and gay so they can be first in the company egg and spoon race
    Yada yada.

    The relationship between you and this topic - structural racism - is an odd one indeed. It's a widely acknowledged complex problem but rather than take a pass on it - as posters do all the time on things which either don’t interest them or they can’t get their heads around – what happens is you get angry at the mere mention of it, lashing out at those who take it seriously, risibly making out that to talk about White Privilege is some mortal threat to civilisation, or in lighter vein (which isn’t actually that light) erupting into spasms of “oh god what do we call them this week then?” jocularity, seeking to trivialize the whole thing.

    The term White Fragility is one I realize irritates but tough titty because it also nails a certain specific mindset and set of attitudes and we have living proof of its acuity right here.
    This week we call them BAGMs. No, really, because BAME is now deemed racist - an evolution I warned you about, you silly old woman, yet you refused to accept would happen - a new term has hoved into view. BAGMs. Black Asian and Global Majority. BAGMs. I expect you’ll be earnestly using it in your tedious, dull, pointlessly effeminate comments for two years before you belatedly realise we’ve all moved onto something else while you were playing Ladies golf

    The Times uses it here in its report of the Sadowitz affair

    “Call for Pleasance boycott after Jerry Sadowitz cancelled”

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/6b67dac4-1c1e-11ed-add4-d333562d46fb?shareToken=fd8f39c0d0d111167bd1c4f7bedd523b
    OK but do you just deny the existence of the structural racism altogether? Forget BAGM vs BAME, forget teaching white 6 year olds about their own innate supremacism, forget skewing med school entry towards relatively unqualified black people, forget egg n spoon races, which we can agree are shit solutions. Do you deny the existence of a problem?
    Not at all. Was there structural racism directed against black people in the Windrush Generation? Absolutely Yes. Was there structural racism directed at poor working class white girls in Telford, Bradford, Rotherham etc - tens or even hundreds of thousands of them - also yes.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,191

    Hugo Gye
    @HugoGye
    In 🇩🇪: cut gas use by 20% or there will be rationing over winter, households & businesses are told.

    Who is enforcing this ?

    Or is this like during Covid when the PM came on one day and said "If you all don't behave I'll have to lock you all in your homes", and then the next day says "We've done really well but we need to go further and so your freedoms will have to be restricted."

    My question is, is this a rhetorical device or an actual threat ?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,309
    Nigelb said:

    TOPPING said:

    Sean_F said:

    Nigelb said:

    ydoethur said:

    Sean_F said:

    TOPPING said:

    fwiw while I have little doubt that the UK civil service and FO was at best anti-Israel and at worst anti-semitic in the past, I would be surprised if there were too many anti-semites there now for precisely the reason (wokeness) that Truss complains of.

    That said, it is easy for those on the left (not you @Stark_Dawning ) to stray into anti-Israel/pro-Palestine/anti-semitism so perhaps that's what she's getting at.

    It was always a theme in Yes Minister that the Civil Service was "pro Arab" (to put it politely).

    It probably was a hangover from Imperial times, when ex colonial administrators had fond memories of the local sheikh or emir offering them a boy for the night, as a form of hospitality.
    I thought it was more simply that the Arabs had oil and the Israelis didn't. Piss off the Arabs and it had unfortunate consequences for our oil supply (as Eden found out). 'The PM should be concerned about the Oily Places not the Holy Places.'

    Of course, that may have been a cover for anti-semitic prejudice.
    That's post WWII, though, and hardly a novel development.

    Pre-war antisemitism was not exactly unusual in British society, as this (surprisingly un-judgmental) article suggests:
    https://thecritic.co.uk/issues/august-september-2021/such-such-were-the-goys/

    (Incidentally, I note that both Michael Gove and Theresa May are self proclaimed admirers of Dornford Yates.)
    Trollope has characters complaining "his greasy Israelitish smile", "a swarthy son of Judah", "a man whose father was probably selling matchsticks in Whitechapel". He had an especial loathing for Jews who converted to Christianity, who he saw as wolves in sheep's clothing. Mr. Melius, a popular preacher, is an immigrant from Bohemia and born a Jew, which makes him very suspect. It turns out, he is guilty of bigamy, and all good-thinking folk applaud when he gets ten years' imprisonment for it.
    Plus there is, you know, the biggie Jew from literature.
    St. Paul... Jesus ?
    Jehovah? Doesn't get much bigger!
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,658
    TOPPING said:

    Foxy said:

    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    https://twitter.com/KayBurley/status/1559098922697728001

    Can Liz Truss provide evidence to back her suggestion there is "woke" culture in the civil service that "strays into antisemitism"? We asked @BrandonLewis 👇👇 #KayBurley wx

    This was a fucking disgraceful allegation from Truss - and shows she is continuity Johnson. She is a liar.

    There's definitely Woke culture in public infrastructure projects.

    My client is holding a "power games" in Regent's Park on Wednesday evening hosted by the Unite for Race Equality network.

    Have a guess as to how they'll play that.
    Provide evidence there is widespread anti-Semitism in the Civil Service, she used the Jewish Community to further her political agenda.

    Anti-Semitism is something we all take seriously when it is founded. Instead she made the allegation then immediately ran away.

    She is an absolute disgrace - and this has made it clear for me. I will never vote Tory whilst anyone associated with her is in a position of power.
    They are going to hold "egg and spoon" races, and other fun outdoor classics, but ensure that one's starting position in these races is handicapped depending on what "group" you are in - because there must always be an identity politics lesson to be imbibed. Never just neutral fun teambuilding.

    For clarity, that means that a white male I would have to start behind others in the race - probably at the back - and that's the intersectionality lecture delivered.

    That is Wokery and it goes on *all the time*.

    At some point this is going to directly collide with my career ambitions, as I personally cannot abide it but, for now, I will have a "prior engagement" that unfortunately cannot get out of.
    Is that really what they do?!

    Jesus f Christ

    Is this private or public sector?
    The thought of Casino having to start behind in an egg & spoon race in Regents Park because he's white - this is surely an uncalled for humiliation to rank right alongside those caused by the structural racism it is meant to highlight!
    @Casino_Royale should just tell them he self-identifies as Indian due to Indian ancestry. What are these fuckers going to do then? Give him a genetic test? Check to see if he wobbles his head? Race is a social construct so it has no reality anyway, as the same Woke cranks keep telling us

    This is the surreal yet inevitable endpoint of Wokeness. Everyone will self identify as African and gay so they can be first in the company egg and spoon race
    Yada yada.

    The relationship between you and this topic - structural racism - is an odd one indeed. It's a widely acknowledged complex problem but rather than take a pass on it - as posters do all the time on things which either don’t interest them or they can’t get their heads around – what happens is you get angry at the mere mention of it, lashing out at those who take it seriously, risibly making out that to talk about White Privilege is some mortal threat to civilisation, or in lighter vein (which isn’t actually that light) erupting into spasms of “oh god what do we call them this week then?” jocularity, seeking to trivialize the whole thing.

    The term White Fragility is one I realize irritates but tough titty because it also nails a certain specific mindset and set of attitudes and we have living proof of its acuity right here.
    So structural racism is a real problem, but straying into antisemitism is a vile lie?

    Jews don't count.
    Discrimination in the UK - a left wing guide:

    Groups the UK discriminates against in the past and now, consciously or unconsciously: blacks, gays, trans people, asians (south and east), muslims, hindus, sikhs, zoroastrians, buddhists, 7th day adventists, mormons (less so since the musical), ufo believers.

    Groups the UK never has and now doesn't discriminate against: jews
    I don't think anyone claims that.

    What we are asking for is evidence that the current Civil Service is anti-semitic.

    Talking of the Paelestinian Mandate administration in the early part of the 20th century is not current.

    Neither are good diplomatic relations with Arab states evidence of anti-semitism.
    As I said earlier, I would doubt that there is too much anti-semitism in the civil service today because, ironically, of the "wokeism" that Truss complains of.

    There must be some, of course, as per @BartholomewRoberts' three scenarios so maybe this is just Truss pushing at an open door (I wonder what the reaction would have been if she had railed against homophobia - such virulent dismissal?).

    And there is as we have seen from various sources and posters a healthy "Arabist" tradition in the civil service plus on the left we have also seen with Jezza how pro-palestine/anti-israel can spill over into anti-semitism so again it's not out of the question for the civil service or those left wing members of it.

    In short, like Rumsfeld's known/unknowns, despite initial scepticism of the concept, @BartholomewRoberts has it pretty right in his categories. I'm also #1.
    So no evidence of anti-semitism in the Civil Service as an institution at all, just a bit of smearing.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,962

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    https://twitter.com/KayBurley/status/1559098922697728001

    Can Liz Truss provide evidence to back her suggestion there is "woke" culture in the civil service that "strays into antisemitism"? We asked @BrandonLewis 👇👇 #KayBurley wx

    This was a fucking disgraceful allegation from Truss - and shows she is continuity Johnson. She is a liar.

    There's definitely Woke culture in public infrastructure projects.

    My client is holding a "power games" in Regent's Park on Wednesday evening hosted by the Unite for Race Equality network.

    Have a guess as to how they'll play that.
    Provide evidence there is widespread anti-Semitism in the Civil Service, she used the Jewish Community to further her political agenda.

    Anti-Semitism is something we all take seriously when it is founded. Instead she made the allegation then immediately ran away.

    She is an absolute disgrace - and this has made it clear for me. I will never vote Tory whilst anyone associated with her is in a position of power.
    They are going to hold "egg and spoon" races, and other fun outdoor classics, but ensure that one's starting position in these races is handicapped depending on what "group" you are in - because there must always be an identity politics lesson to be imbibed. Never just neutral fun teambuilding.

    For clarity, that means that a white male I would have to start behind others in the race - probably at the back - and that's the intersectionality lecture delivered.

    That is Wokery and it goes on *all the time*.

    At some point this is going to directly collide with my career ambitions, as I personally cannot abide it but, for now, I will have a "prior engagement" that unfortunately cannot get out of.
    Is that really what they do?!

    Jesus f Christ

    Is this private or public sector?
    The thought of Casino having to start behind in an egg & spoon race in Regents Park because he's white - this is surely an uncalled for humiliation to rank right alongside those caused by the structural racism it is meant to highlight!
    @Casino_Royale should just tell them he self-identifies as Indian due to Indian ancestry. What are these fuckers going to do then? Give him a genetic test? Check to see if he wobbles his head? Race is a social construct so it has no reality anyway, as the same Woke cranks keep telling us

    This is the surreal yet inevitable endpoint of Wokeness. Everyone will self identify as African and gay so they can be first in the company egg and spoon race
    Yada yada.

    The relationship between you and this topic - structural racism - is an odd one indeed. It's a widely acknowledged complex problem but rather than take a pass on it - as posters do all the time on things which either don’t interest them or they can’t get their heads around – what happens is you get angry at the mere mention of it, lashing out at those who take it seriously, risibly making out that to talk about White Privilege is some mortal threat to civilisation, or in lighter vein (which isn’t actually that light) erupting into spasms of “oh god what do we call them this week then?” jocularity, seeking to trivialize the whole thing.

    The term White Fragility is one I realize irritates but tough titty because it also nails a certain specific mindset and set of attitudes and we have living proof of its acuity right here.
    So structural racism is a real problem, but straying into antisemitism is a vile lie?

    Jews don't count.
    Return to sender. Poster who said "accusations of antisemitism are always a vile lie" unknown.
    I didn't say always.

    On this thread @Theuniondivvie @Northern_Al @CorrectHorseBattery and yourself have all angrily suggested that straying into antisemitism as alleged by Truss was a lie.

    Meanwhile you're banging on about "Fragility" and "structural" racism.

    Who is the "Fragile" one really, when comments as mild as Trusses about "straying into" racism attract such vitriol?

    Racism is Structural against every race apart from Jews it seems?

    Which is it, is structural racism real including against Jews, or is racism real but uniquely Jews don't count?
    Eh?
    I know you don't react well to requests for evidence, but can you say what qualifies as 'angrily' and 'suggests straying into antisemitism as alleged by Truss was a lie' in my posts? If you could manage not to do it angrily that would also be great.
  • JohnOJohnO Posts: 4,291
    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    https://twitter.com/KayBurley/status/1559098922697728001

    Can Liz Truss provide evidence to back her suggestion there is "woke" culture in the civil service that "strays into antisemitism"? We asked @BrandonLewis 👇👇 #KayBurley wx

    This was a fucking disgraceful allegation from Truss - and shows she is continuity Johnson. She is a liar.

    There's definitely Woke culture in public infrastructure projects.

    My client is holding a "power games" in Regent's Park on Wednesday evening hosted by the Unite for Race Equality network.

    Have a guess as to how they'll play that.
    Provide evidence there is widespread anti-Semitism in the Civil Service, she used the Jewish Community to further her political agenda.

    Anti-Semitism is something we all take seriously when it is founded. Instead she made the allegation then immediately ran away.

    She is an absolute disgrace - and this has made it clear for me. I will never vote Tory whilst anyone associated with her is in a position of power.
    They are going to hold "egg and spoon" races, and other fun outdoor classics, but ensure that one's starting position in these races is handicapped depending on what "group" you are in - because there must always be an identity politics lesson to be imbibed. Never just neutral fun teambuilding.

    For clarity, that means that a white male I would have to start behind others in the race - probably at the back - and that's the intersectionality lecture delivered.

    That is Wokery and it goes on *all the time*.

    At some point this is going to directly collide with my career ambitions, as I personally cannot abide it but, for now, I will have a "prior engagement" that unfortunately cannot get out of.
    Is that really what they do?!

    Jesus f Christ

    Is this private or public sector?
    The thought of Casino having to start behind in an egg & spoon race in Regents Park because he's white - this is surely an uncalled for humiliation to rank right alongside those caused by the structural racism it is meant to highlight!
    @Casino_Royale should just tell them he self-identifies as Indian due to Indian ancestry. What are these fuckers going to do then? Give him a genetic test? Check to see if he wobbles his head? Race is a social construct so it has no reality anyway, as the same Woke cranks keep telling us

    This is the surreal yet inevitable endpoint of Wokeness. Everyone will self identify as African and gay so they can be first in the company egg and spoon race
    Yada yada.

    The relationship between you and this topic - structural racism - is an odd one indeed. It's a widely acknowledged complex problem but rather than take a pass on it - as posters do all the time on things which either don’t interest them or they can’t get their heads around – what happens is you get angry at the mere mention of it, lashing out at those who take it seriously, risibly making out that to talk about White Privilege is some mortal threat to civilisation, or in lighter vein (which isn’t actually that light) erupting into spasms of “oh god what do we call them this week then?” jocularity, seeking to trivialize the whole thing.

    The term White Fragility is one I realize irritates but tough titty because it also nails a certain specific mindset and set of attitudes and we have living proof of its acuity right here.
    So structural racism is a real problem, but straying into antisemitism is a vile lie?

    Jews don't count.
    Discrimination in the UK - a left wing guide:

    Groups the UK discriminates against in the past and now, consciously or unconsciously: blacks, gays, trans people, asians (south and east), muslims, hindus, sikhs, zoroastrians, buddhists, 7th day adventists, mormons (less so since the musical), ufo believers.

    Groups the UK never has and now doesn't discriminate against: jews
    Antisemitism in the UK - a right wing guide:

    All the substantial antisemitism of the right in the UK was in the past and committed by a completely different right from that which exists today.

    This was a good one of which I was reminded of by a tweet at the weekend. Good old Manny, the antisemitic Tory was lucky Shinwell didn't put the heid in.

    'Your article (The big fight, G2, 24 February) refers to the “idea of fisticuffs, or worse, to settle differences between political rivals”, mentions the Duke of Wellington’s duel in 1829, and says “We have not seen any such shenanigans since”. On 4 April 1938 in the House of Commons, the Jewish Labour MP Manny Shinwell heavily criticised Neville Chamberlain’s government for not supporting the Popular Front government in Spain during the civil war by its continuing membership of the non-intervention pact. The Tory MP Commander Robert Tatton Bower yelled at him: “Go back to Poland!” Shinwell, construing this as an antisemitic remark, crossed the floor and smacked Bower across the face. This action did not affect Shinwell’s career as he became secretary of state for war in 1947 and later minister for defence. Quite appropriate positions of office!
    Dr Freddy Shaw
    London'
    Oh yes of course the right wing has been historically and virulently anti-semitic. Someone mentioned Yes Minister confirming the Arabist tendency in the civil service and at that time there weren't too many left wingers there I'm sure.

    That's a given. Or it was. But to temper that slightly we have now had the Cons with a Jew as leader quite recently and their would-be leader pointing out the presence of anti-semitism in one of our institutions.

    So it is not exonerating the right to point out the gross hypocrisy of the left.
    @Theuniondivvie

    And of course there was the "estonian/etonian" jibe (made by a right winger, if the story is correct, about his own party). So some growing pains/confusion there hondootedly.
    Harold Macmillan no less
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    Pulpstar said:

    Hugo Gye
    @HugoGye
    In 🇩🇪: cut gas use by 20% or there will be rationing over winter, households & businesses are told.

    Who is enforcing this ?

    Or is this like during Covid when the PM came on one day and said "If you all don't behave I'll have to lock you all in your homes", and then the next day says "We've done really well but we need to go further and so your freedoms will have to be restricted."

    My question is, is this a rhetorical device or an actual threat ?
    "Warnings about what may come in winter are gaining ground in public discourse. A few days ago, Jens Kerstan, head of the environment department in Hamburg, said that the gas crisis – in the context of the confrontation with Moscow over the war in Ukraine – could lead to rationing of hot water in homes. In case of an emergency, he told the newspaper Welt am Sonntag, hot water availability would have to be limited to certain hours of the day. The politician also noted that the city-state is considering lowering the maximum temperature of private heating."

    https://english.elpais.com/international/2022-07-11/short-showers-and-limited-heating-germany-prepares-for-possible-power-cuts-this-winter.html

    It seems from the article that landlords of tenanted apartment blocks have control over the whole heating system. For freeholders you can presumably turn off the gas taps.

    See also google searches for firewood in German at all time high

    https://www.reddit.com/r/dataisbeautiful/comments/wnyps3/oc_google_searches_for_firewood_in_germany/
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 8,383
    Foxy said:

    TOPPING said:

    Foxy said:

    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    https://twitter.com/KayBurley/status/1559098922697728001

    Can Liz Truss provide evidence to back her suggestion there is "woke" culture in the civil service that "strays into antisemitism"? We asked @BrandonLewis 👇👇 #KayBurley wx

    This was a fucking disgraceful allegation from Truss - and shows she is continuity Johnson. She is a liar.

    There's definitely Woke culture in public infrastructure projects.

    My client is holding a "power games" in Regent's Park on Wednesday evening hosted by the Unite for Race Equality network.

    Have a guess as to how they'll play that.
    Provide evidence there is widespread anti-Semitism in the Civil Service, she used the Jewish Community to further her political agenda.

    Anti-Semitism is something we all take seriously when it is founded. Instead she made the allegation then immediately ran away.

    She is an absolute disgrace - and this has made it clear for me. I will never vote Tory whilst anyone associated with her is in a position of power.
    They are going to hold "egg and spoon" races, and other fun outdoor classics, but ensure that one's starting position in these races is handicapped depending on what "group" you are in - because there must always be an identity politics lesson to be imbibed. Never just neutral fun teambuilding.

    For clarity, that means that a white male I would have to start behind others in the race - probably at the back - and that's the intersectionality lecture delivered.

    That is Wokery and it goes on *all the time*.

    At some point this is going to directly collide with my career ambitions, as I personally cannot abide it but, for now, I will have a "prior engagement" that unfortunately cannot get out of.
    Is that really what they do?!

    Jesus f Christ

    Is this private or public sector?
    The thought of Casino having to start behind in an egg & spoon race in Regents Park because he's white - this is surely an uncalled for humiliation to rank right alongside those caused by the structural racism it is meant to highlight!
    @Casino_Royale should just tell them he self-identifies as Indian due to Indian ancestry. What are these fuckers going to do then? Give him a genetic test? Check to see if he wobbles his head? Race is a social construct so it has no reality anyway, as the same Woke cranks keep telling us

    This is the surreal yet inevitable endpoint of Wokeness. Everyone will self identify as African and gay so they can be first in the company egg and spoon race
    Yada yada.

    The relationship between you and this topic - structural racism - is an odd one indeed. It's a widely acknowledged complex problem but rather than take a pass on it - as posters do all the time on things which either don’t interest them or they can’t get their heads around – what happens is you get angry at the mere mention of it, lashing out at those who take it seriously, risibly making out that to talk about White Privilege is some mortal threat to civilisation, or in lighter vein (which isn’t actually that light) erupting into spasms of “oh god what do we call them this week then?” jocularity, seeking to trivialize the whole thing.

    The term White Fragility is one I realize irritates but tough titty because it also nails a certain specific mindset and set of attitudes and we have living proof of its acuity right here.
    So structural racism is a real problem, but straying into antisemitism is a vile lie?

    Jews don't count.
    Discrimination in the UK - a left wing guide:

    Groups the UK discriminates against in the past and now, consciously or unconsciously: blacks, gays, trans people, asians (south and east), muslims, hindus, sikhs, zoroastrians, buddhists, 7th day adventists, mormons (less so since the musical), ufo believers.

    Groups the UK never has and now doesn't discriminate against: jews
    I don't think anyone claims that.

    What we are asking for is evidence that the current Civil Service is anti-semitic.

    Talking of the Paelestinian Mandate administration in the early part of the 20th century is not current.

    Neither are good diplomatic relations with Arab states evidence of anti-semitism.
    As I said earlier, I would doubt that there is too much anti-semitism in the civil service today because, ironically, of the "wokeism" that Truss complains of.

    There must be some, of course, as per @BartholomewRoberts' three scenarios so maybe this is just Truss pushing at an open door (I wonder what the reaction would have been if she had railed against homophobia - such virulent dismissal?).

    And there is as we have seen from various sources and posters a healthy "Arabist" tradition in the civil service plus on the left we have also seen with Jezza how pro-palestine/anti-israel can spill over into anti-semitism so again it's not out of the question for the civil service or those left wing members of it.

    In short, like Rumsfeld's known/unknowns, despite initial scepticism of the concept, @BartholomewRoberts has it pretty right in his categories. I'm also #1.
    So no evidence of anti-semitism in the Civil Service as an institution at all, just a bit of smearing.
    And, equally, no evidence for Bart's assertion that the "Jewish community" has expressed concerns about anti-semitism in the Civil Service. He's just ignored me, which he is of course entitled to do, but....
  • kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    https://twitter.com/KayBurley/status/1559098922697728001

    Can Liz Truss provide evidence to back her suggestion there is "woke" culture in the civil service that "strays into antisemitism"? We asked @BrandonLewis 👇👇 #KayBurley wx

    This was a fucking disgraceful allegation from Truss - and shows she is continuity Johnson. She is a liar.

    There's definitely Woke culture in public infrastructure projects.

    My client is holding a "power games" in Regent's Park on Wednesday evening hosted by the Unite for Race Equality network.

    Have a guess as to how they'll play that.
    Provide evidence there is widespread anti-Semitism in the Civil Service, she used the Jewish Community to further her political agenda.

    Anti-Semitism is something we all take seriously when it is founded. Instead she made the allegation then immediately ran away.

    She is an absolute disgrace - and this has made it clear for me. I will never vote Tory whilst anyone associated with her is in a position of power.
    They are going to hold "egg and spoon" races, and other fun outdoor classics, but ensure that one's starting position in these races is handicapped depending on what "group" you are in - because there must always be an identity politics lesson to be imbibed. Never just neutral fun teambuilding.

    For clarity, that means that a white male I would have to start behind others in the race - probably at the back - and that's the intersectionality lecture delivered.

    That is Wokery and it goes on *all the time*.

    At some point this is going to directly collide with my career ambitions, as I personally cannot abide it but, for now, I will have a "prior engagement" that unfortunately cannot get out of.
    Is that really what they do?!

    Jesus f Christ

    Is this private or public sector?
    The thought of Casino having to start behind in an egg & spoon race in Regents Park because he's white - this is surely an uncalled for humiliation to rank right alongside those caused by the structural racism it is meant to highlight!
    @Casino_Royale should just tell them he self-identifies as Indian due to Indian ancestry. What are these fuckers going to do then? Give him a genetic test? Check to see if he wobbles his head? Race is a social construct so it has no reality anyway, as the same Woke cranks keep telling us

    This is the surreal yet inevitable endpoint of Wokeness. Everyone will self identify as African and gay so they can be first in the company egg and spoon race
    Yada yada.

    The relationship between you and this topic - structural racism - is an odd one indeed. It's a widely acknowledged complex problem but rather than take a pass on it - as posters do all the time on things which either don’t interest them or they can’t get their heads around – what happens is you get angry at the mere mention of it, lashing out at those who take it seriously, risibly making out that to talk about White Privilege is some mortal threat to civilisation, or in lighter vein (which isn’t actually that light) erupting into spasms of “oh god what do we call them this week then?” jocularity, seeking to trivialize the whole thing.

    The term White Fragility is one I realize irritates but tough titty because it also nails a certain specific mindset and set of attitudes and we have living proof of its acuity right here.
    So structural racism is a real problem, but straying into antisemitism is a vile lie?

    Jews don't count.
    Return to sender. Poster who said "accusations of antisemitism are always a vile lie" unknown.
    I didn't say always.

    On this thread @Theuniondivvie @Northern_Al @CorrectHorseBattery and yourself have all angrily suggested that straying into antisemitism as alleged by Truss was a lie.

    Meanwhile you're banging on about "Fragility" and "structural" racism.

    Who is the "Fragile" one really, when comments as mild as Trusses about "straying into" racism attract such vitriol?

    Racism is Structural against every race apart from Jews it seems?

    Which is it, is structural racism real including against Jews, or is racism real but uniquely Jews don't count?
    Eh?
    I know you don't react well to requests for evidence, but can you say what qualifies as 'angrily' and 'suggests straying into antisemitism as alleged by Truss was a lie' in my posts? If you could manage not to do it angrily that would also be great.
    Apologies TUD, I tagged the wrong name, I'm very sorry about that. I meant @Stuartinromford so I'm very, very sorry I mixed that up and tagged you instead.

    This is the post I meant which claimed that saying that sometimes antisemitism is strayed into is a "lie" which I wrongly wrote your name for.
    image
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,957
    Foxy said:

    TOPPING said:

    Foxy said:

    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    https://twitter.com/KayBurley/status/1559098922697728001

    Can Liz Truss provide evidence to back her suggestion there is "woke" culture in the civil service that "strays into antisemitism"? We asked @BrandonLewis 👇👇 #KayBurley wx

    This was a fucking disgraceful allegation from Truss - and shows she is continuity Johnson. She is a liar.

    There's definitely Woke culture in public infrastructure projects.

    My client is holding a "power games" in Regent's Park on Wednesday evening hosted by the Unite for Race Equality network.

    Have a guess as to how they'll play that.
    Provide evidence there is widespread anti-Semitism in the Civil Service, she used the Jewish Community to further her political agenda.

    Anti-Semitism is something we all take seriously when it is founded. Instead she made the allegation then immediately ran away.

    She is an absolute disgrace - and this has made it clear for me. I will never vote Tory whilst anyone associated with her is in a position of power.
    They are going to hold "egg and spoon" races, and other fun outdoor classics, but ensure that one's starting position in these races is handicapped depending on what "group" you are in - because there must always be an identity politics lesson to be imbibed. Never just neutral fun teambuilding.

    For clarity, that means that a white male I would have to start behind others in the race - probably at the back - and that's the intersectionality lecture delivered.

    That is Wokery and it goes on *all the time*.

    At some point this is going to directly collide with my career ambitions, as I personally cannot abide it but, for now, I will have a "prior engagement" that unfortunately cannot get out of.
    Is that really what they do?!

    Jesus f Christ

    Is this private or public sector?
    The thought of Casino having to start behind in an egg & spoon race in Regents Park because he's white - this is surely an uncalled for humiliation to rank right alongside those caused by the structural racism it is meant to highlight!
    @Casino_Royale should just tell them he self-identifies as Indian due to Indian ancestry. What are these fuckers going to do then? Give him a genetic test? Check to see if he wobbles his head? Race is a social construct so it has no reality anyway, as the same Woke cranks keep telling us

    This is the surreal yet inevitable endpoint of Wokeness. Everyone will self identify as African and gay so they can be first in the company egg and spoon race
    Yada yada.

    The relationship between you and this topic - structural racism - is an odd one indeed. It's a widely acknowledged complex problem but rather than take a pass on it - as posters do all the time on things which either don’t interest them or they can’t get their heads around – what happens is you get angry at the mere mention of it, lashing out at those who take it seriously, risibly making out that to talk about White Privilege is some mortal threat to civilisation, or in lighter vein (which isn’t actually that light) erupting into spasms of “oh god what do we call them this week then?” jocularity, seeking to trivialize the whole thing.

    The term White Fragility is one I realize irritates but tough titty because it also nails a certain specific mindset and set of attitudes and we have living proof of its acuity right here.
    So structural racism is a real problem, but straying into antisemitism is a vile lie?

    Jews don't count.
    Discrimination in the UK - a left wing guide:

    Groups the UK discriminates against in the past and now, consciously or unconsciously: blacks, gays, trans people, asians (south and east), muslims, hindus, sikhs, zoroastrians, buddhists, 7th day adventists, mormons (less so since the musical), ufo believers.

    Groups the UK never has and now doesn't discriminate against: jews
    I don't think anyone claims that.

    What we are asking for is evidence that the current Civil Service is anti-semitic.

    Talking of the Paelestinian Mandate administration in the early part of the 20th century is not current.

    Neither are good diplomatic relations with Arab states evidence of anti-semitism.
    As I said earlier, I would doubt that there is too much anti-semitism in the civil service today because, ironically, of the "wokeism" that Truss complains of.

    There must be some, of course, as per @BartholomewRoberts' three scenarios so maybe this is just Truss pushing at an open door (I wonder what the reaction would have been if she had railed against homophobia - such virulent dismissal?).

    And there is as we have seen from various sources and posters a healthy "Arabist" tradition in the civil service plus on the left we have also seen with Jezza how pro-palestine/anti-israel can spill over into anti-semitism so again it's not out of the question for the civil service or those left wing members of it.

    In short, like Rumsfeld's known/unknowns, despite initial scepticism of the concept, @BartholomewRoberts has it pretty right in his categories. I'm also #1.
    So no evidence of anti-semitism in the Civil Service as an institution at all, just a bit of smearing.
    Do you have evidence that there is no anti-semitism in the Civil Service as an institution at all?
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,957

    Foxy said:

    TOPPING said:

    Foxy said:

    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    https://twitter.com/KayBurley/status/1559098922697728001

    Can Liz Truss provide evidence to back her suggestion there is "woke" culture in the civil service that "strays into antisemitism"? We asked @BrandonLewis 👇👇 #KayBurley wx

    This was a fucking disgraceful allegation from Truss - and shows she is continuity Johnson. She is a liar.

    There's definitely Woke culture in public infrastructure projects.

    My client is holding a "power games" in Regent's Park on Wednesday evening hosted by the Unite for Race Equality network.

    Have a guess as to how they'll play that.
    Provide evidence there is widespread anti-Semitism in the Civil Service, she used the Jewish Community to further her political agenda.

    Anti-Semitism is something we all take seriously when it is founded. Instead she made the allegation then immediately ran away.

    She is an absolute disgrace - and this has made it clear for me. I will never vote Tory whilst anyone associated with her is in a position of power.
    They are going to hold "egg and spoon" races, and other fun outdoor classics, but ensure that one's starting position in these races is handicapped depending on what "group" you are in - because there must always be an identity politics lesson to be imbibed. Never just neutral fun teambuilding.

    For clarity, that means that a white male I would have to start behind others in the race - probably at the back - and that's the intersectionality lecture delivered.

    That is Wokery and it goes on *all the time*.

    At some point this is going to directly collide with my career ambitions, as I personally cannot abide it but, for now, I will have a "prior engagement" that unfortunately cannot get out of.
    Is that really what they do?!

    Jesus f Christ

    Is this private or public sector?
    The thought of Casino having to start behind in an egg & spoon race in Regents Park because he's white - this is surely an uncalled for humiliation to rank right alongside those caused by the structural racism it is meant to highlight!
    @Casino_Royale should just tell them he self-identifies as Indian due to Indian ancestry. What are these fuckers going to do then? Give him a genetic test? Check to see if he wobbles his head? Race is a social construct so it has no reality anyway, as the same Woke cranks keep telling us

    This is the surreal yet inevitable endpoint of Wokeness. Everyone will self identify as African and gay so they can be first in the company egg and spoon race
    Yada yada.

    The relationship between you and this topic - structural racism - is an odd one indeed. It's a widely acknowledged complex problem but rather than take a pass on it - as posters do all the time on things which either don’t interest them or they can’t get their heads around – what happens is you get angry at the mere mention of it, lashing out at those who take it seriously, risibly making out that to talk about White Privilege is some mortal threat to civilisation, or in lighter vein (which isn’t actually that light) erupting into spasms of “oh god what do we call them this week then?” jocularity, seeking to trivialize the whole thing.

    The term White Fragility is one I realize irritates but tough titty because it also nails a certain specific mindset and set of attitudes and we have living proof of its acuity right here.
    So structural racism is a real problem, but straying into antisemitism is a vile lie?

    Jews don't count.
    Discrimination in the UK - a left wing guide:

    Groups the UK discriminates against in the past and now, consciously or unconsciously: blacks, gays, trans people, asians (south and east), muslims, hindus, sikhs, zoroastrians, buddhists, 7th day adventists, mormons (less so since the musical), ufo believers.

    Groups the UK never has and now doesn't discriminate against: jews
    I don't think anyone claims that.

    What we are asking for is evidence that the current Civil Service is anti-semitic.

    Talking of the Paelestinian Mandate administration in the early part of the 20th century is not current.

    Neither are good diplomatic relations with Arab states evidence of anti-semitism.
    As I said earlier, I would doubt that there is too much anti-semitism in the civil service today because, ironically, of the "wokeism" that Truss complains of.

    There must be some, of course, as per @BartholomewRoberts' three scenarios so maybe this is just Truss pushing at an open door (I wonder what the reaction would have been if she had railed against homophobia - such virulent dismissal?).

    And there is as we have seen from various sources and posters a healthy "Arabist" tradition in the civil service plus on the left we have also seen with Jezza how pro-palestine/anti-israel can spill over into anti-semitism so again it's not out of the question for the civil service or those left wing members of it.

    In short, like Rumsfeld's known/unknowns, despite initial scepticism of the concept, @BartholomewRoberts has it pretty right in his categories. I'm also #1.
    So no evidence of anti-semitism in the Civil Service as an institution at all, just a bit of smearing.
    And, equally, no evidence for Bart's assertion that the "Jewish community" has expressed concerns about anti-semitism in the Civil Service. He's just ignored me, which he is of course entitled to do, but....
    Same question to you: do you have evidence that there is no anti-semitism in the Civil Service?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,072
    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    TOPPING said:

    Sean_F said:

    Nigelb said:

    ydoethur said:

    Sean_F said:

    TOPPING said:

    fwiw while I have little doubt that the UK civil service and FO was at best anti-Israel and at worst anti-semitic in the past, I would be surprised if there were too many anti-semites there now for precisely the reason (wokeness) that Truss complains of.

    That said, it is easy for those on the left (not you @Stark_Dawning ) to stray into anti-Israel/pro-Palestine/anti-semitism so perhaps that's what she's getting at.

    It was always a theme in Yes Minister that the Civil Service was "pro Arab" (to put it politely).

    It probably was a hangover from Imperial times, when ex colonial administrators had fond memories of the local sheikh or emir offering them a boy for the night, as a form of hospitality.
    I thought it was more simply that the Arabs had oil and the Israelis didn't. Piss off the Arabs and it had unfortunate consequences for our oil supply (as Eden found out). 'The PM should be concerned about the Oily Places not the Holy Places.'

    Of course, that may have been a cover for anti-semitic prejudice.
    That's post WWII, though, and hardly a novel development.

    Pre-war antisemitism was not exactly unusual in British society, as this (surprisingly un-judgmental) article suggests:
    https://thecritic.co.uk/issues/august-september-2021/such-such-were-the-goys/

    (Incidentally, I note that both Michael Gove and Theresa May are self proclaimed admirers of Dornford Yates.)
    Trollope has characters complaining "his greasy Israelitish smile", "a swarthy son of Judah", "a man whose father was probably selling matchsticks in Whitechapel". He had an especial loathing for Jews who converted to Christianity, who he saw as wolves in sheep's clothing. Mr. Melius, a popular preacher, is an immigrant from Bohemia and born a Jew, which makes him very suspect. It turns out, he is guilty of bigamy, and all good-thinking folk applaud when he gets ten years' imprisonment for it.
    Plus there is, you know, the biggie Jew from literature.
    St. Paul... Jesus ?
    Jehovah? Doesn't get much bigger!
    Would it be accurate to so describe a deity ?
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,153
    edited August 2022
    IshmaelZ said:

    kle4 said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    https://twitter.com/KayBurley/status/1559098922697728001

    Can Liz Truss provide evidence to back her suggestion there is "woke" culture in the civil service that "strays into antisemitism"? We asked @BrandonLewis 👇👇 #KayBurley wx

    This was a fucking disgraceful allegation from Truss - and shows she is continuity Johnson. She is a liar.

    There's definitely Woke culture in public infrastructure projects.

    My client is holding a "power games" in Regent's Park on Wednesday evening hosted by the Unite for Race Equality network.

    Have a guess as to how they'll play that.
    Provide evidence there is widespread anti-Semitism in the Civil Service, she used the Jewish Community to further her political agenda.

    Anti-Semitism is something we all take seriously when it is founded. Instead she made the allegation then immediately ran away.

    She is an absolute disgrace - and this has made it clear for me. I will never vote Tory whilst anyone associated with her is in a position of power.
    They are going to hold "egg and spoon" races, and other fun outdoor classics, but ensure that one's starting position in these races is handicapped depending on what "group" you are in - because there must always be an identity politics lesson to be imbibed. Never just neutral fun teambuilding.

    For clarity, that means that a white male I would have to start behind others in the race - probably at the back - and that's the intersectionality lecture delivered.

    That is Wokery and it goes on *all the time*.

    At some point this is going to directly collide with my career ambitions, as I personally cannot abide it but, for now, I will have a "prior engagement" that unfortunately cannot get out of.
    Is that really what they do?!

    Jesus f Christ

    Is this private or public sector?
    The thought of Casino having to start behind in an egg & spoon race in Regents Park because he's white - this is surely an uncalled for humiliation to rank right alongside those caused by the structural racism it is meant to highlight!
    @Casino_Royale should just tell them he self-identifies as Indian due to Indian ancestry. What are these fuckers going to do then? Give him a genetic test? Check to see if he wobbles his head? Race is a social construct so it has no reality anyway, as the same Woke cranks keep telling us

    This is the surreal yet inevitable endpoint of Wokeness. Everyone will self identify as African and gay so they can be first in the company egg and spoon race
    Yada yada.

    The relationship between you and this topic - structural racism - is an odd one indeed. It's a widely acknowledged complex problem but rather than take a pass on it - as posters do all the time on things which either don’t interest them or they can’t get their heads around – what happens is you get angry at the mere mention of it, lashing out at those who take it seriously, risibly making out that to talk about White Privilege is some mortal threat to civilisation, or in lighter vein (which isn’t actually that light) erupting into spasms of “oh god what do we call them this week then?” jocularity, seeking to trivialize the whole thing.

    The term White Fragility is one I realize irritates but tough titty because it also nails a certain specific mindset and set of attitudes and we have living proof of its acuity right here.
    So structural racism is a real problem, but straying into antisemitism is a vile lie?

    Jews don't count.
    That's a strange conclusion to reach from that post.
    Not at all.

    One of three situations can be true from what I can see:

    1 - Structural racism, including antisemitism, exists and should be tackled. In which case Truss saying antisemitism should be tackled should be agreed with.

    2 - Structural racism, including antisemitism, doesn't exist. In which case those suggesting racism exists may be called "liars" but the very concepts of "White Fragility" etc are also nonsensical.

    3 - Structural racism exists, but uniquely for some reason antisemitism does not. Structural racism is so rampant that talk of "White Fragility" makes sense, but antisemitism is so non-existent that even suggesting antisemitism needs to be tackled when its strayed into is a vile lie.

    I would go with #1. It seems Kinabalu goes with #3.
    Kinabalu knows that 1 is the case. He just finds it irksome that those on the centre left and all points right are anti-anti-semitism on two entirely separate levels, both the obvious one because A Frank, holocaust, tolerance etc AND because his party elected a Leader so profoundly stupid that he was unable to recognise antisemitism in its most obvious form, in his party and in himself, and it is massive fun pointing this out. Again and again. The joke never gets old.
    Yes I like BR's (1) - apart from the Truss ref obvs. That looks a rather generous interpretation of her remarks to me.

    Fair cop on JC. In fact I don't mind the joke but it depends - as so often with comedy - on who's telling it.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,957
    edited August 2022
    Nigelb said:

    TOPPING said:

    Sean_F said:

    Nigelb said:

    ydoethur said:

    Sean_F said:

    TOPPING said:

    fwiw while I have little doubt that the UK civil service and FO was at best anti-Israel and at worst anti-semitic in the past, I would be surprised if there were too many anti-semites there now for precisely the reason (wokeness) that Truss complains of.

    That said, it is easy for those on the left (not you @Stark_Dawning ) to stray into anti-Israel/pro-Palestine/anti-semitism so perhaps that's what she's getting at.

    It was always a theme in Yes Minister that the Civil Service was "pro Arab" (to put it politely).

    It probably was a hangover from Imperial times, when ex colonial administrators had fond memories of the local sheikh or emir offering them a boy for the night, as a form of hospitality.
    I thought it was more simply that the Arabs had oil and the Israelis didn't. Piss off the Arabs and it had unfortunate consequences for our oil supply (as Eden found out). 'The PM should be concerned about the Oily Places not the Holy Places.'

    Of course, that may have been a cover for anti-semitic prejudice.
    That's post WWII, though, and hardly a novel development.

    Pre-war antisemitism was not exactly unusual in British society, as this (surprisingly un-judgmental) article suggests:
    https://thecritic.co.uk/issues/august-september-2021/such-such-were-the-goys/

    (Incidentally, I note that both Michael Gove and Theresa May are self proclaimed admirers of Dornford Yates.)
    Trollope has characters complaining "his greasy Israelitish smile", "a swarthy son of Judah", "a man whose father was probably selling matchsticks in Whitechapel". He had an especial loathing for Jews who converted to Christianity, who he saw as wolves in sheep's clothing. Mr. Melius, a popular preacher, is an immigrant from Bohemia and born a Jew, which makes him very suspect. It turns out, he is guilty of bigamy, and all good-thinking folk applaud when he gets ten years' imprisonment for it.
    Plus there is, you know, the biggie Jew from literature.
    St. Paul... Jesus ?
    Question: "I am a Jew. Hath not a Jew eyes? Hath not a Jew hands, organs, dimensions, senses, affections, passions; fed with the same food, hurt with the same weapons, subject to the same diseases..."

    Answer from the Civil Service: No.

    :wink:
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,309
    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    TOPPING said:

    Sean_F said:

    Nigelb said:

    ydoethur said:

    Sean_F said:

    TOPPING said:

    fwiw while I have little doubt that the UK civil service and FO was at best anti-Israel and at worst anti-semitic in the past, I would be surprised if there were too many anti-semites there now for precisely the reason (wokeness) that Truss complains of.

    That said, it is easy for those on the left (not you @Stark_Dawning ) to stray into anti-Israel/pro-Palestine/anti-semitism so perhaps that's what she's getting at.

    It was always a theme in Yes Minister that the Civil Service was "pro Arab" (to put it politely).

    It probably was a hangover from Imperial times, when ex colonial administrators had fond memories of the local sheikh or emir offering them a boy for the night, as a form of hospitality.
    I thought it was more simply that the Arabs had oil and the Israelis didn't. Piss off the Arabs and it had unfortunate consequences for our oil supply (as Eden found out). 'The PM should be concerned about the Oily Places not the Holy Places.'

    Of course, that may have been a cover for anti-semitic prejudice.
    That's post WWII, though, and hardly a novel development.

    Pre-war antisemitism was not exactly unusual in British society, as this (surprisingly un-judgmental) article suggests:
    https://thecritic.co.uk/issues/august-september-2021/such-such-were-the-goys/

    (Incidentally, I note that both Michael Gove and Theresa May are self proclaimed admirers of Dornford Yates.)
    Trollope has characters complaining "his greasy Israelitish smile", "a swarthy son of Judah", "a man whose father was probably selling matchsticks in Whitechapel". He had an especial loathing for Jews who converted to Christianity, who he saw as wolves in sheep's clothing. Mr. Melius, a popular preacher, is an immigrant from Bohemia and born a Jew, which makes him very suspect. It turns out, he is guilty of bigamy, and all good-thinking folk applaud when he gets ten years' imprisonment for it.
    Plus there is, you know, the biggie Jew from literature.
    St. Paul... Jesus ?
    Jehovah? Doesn't get much bigger!
    Would it be accurate to so describe a deity ?
    Personally, I've always felt like God is an Englishman. Ralph Richardson type, as in the movie. Means well, enormously powerful, a bit vague sometimes, ineffable and omniscient, drinks too much

    As to whether God is actually Jewish, there is an old Israeli saying - if God is really Jewish, and the Jews are His chosen people, how come the Arabs got all the oil?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,072
    .
    TOPPING said:

    Foxy said:

    TOPPING said:

    Foxy said:

    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    https://twitter.com/KayBurley/status/1559098922697728001

    Can Liz Truss provide evidence to back her suggestion there is "woke" culture in the civil service that "strays into antisemitism"? We asked @BrandonLewis 👇👇 #KayBurley wx

    This was a fucking disgraceful allegation from Truss - and shows she is continuity Johnson. She is a liar.

    There's definitely Woke culture in public infrastructure projects.

    My client is holding a "power games" in Regent's Park on Wednesday evening hosted by the Unite for Race Equality network.

    Have a guess as to how they'll play that.
    Provide evidence there is widespread anti-Semitism in the Civil Service, she used the Jewish Community to further her political agenda.

    Anti-Semitism is something we all take seriously when it is founded. Instead she made the allegation then immediately ran away.

    She is an absolute disgrace - and this has made it clear for me. I will never vote Tory whilst anyone associated with her is in a position of power.
    They are going to hold "egg and spoon" races, and other fun outdoor classics, but ensure that one's starting position in these races is handicapped depending on what "group" you are in - because there must always be an identity politics lesson to be imbibed. Never just neutral fun teambuilding.

    For clarity, that means that a white male I would have to start behind others in the race - probably at the back - and that's the intersectionality lecture delivered.

    That is Wokery and it goes on *all the time*.

    At some point this is going to directly collide with my career ambitions, as I personally cannot abide it but, for now, I will have a "prior engagement" that unfortunately cannot get out of.
    Is that really what they do?!

    Jesus f Christ

    Is this private or public sector?
    The thought of Casino having to start behind in an egg & spoon race in Regents Park because he's white - this is surely an uncalled for humiliation to rank right alongside those caused by the structural racism it is meant to highlight!
    @Casino_Royale should just tell them he self-identifies as Indian due to Indian ancestry. What are these fuckers going to do then? Give him a genetic test? Check to see if he wobbles his head? Race is a social construct so it has no reality anyway, as the same Woke cranks keep telling us

    This is the surreal yet inevitable endpoint of Wokeness. Everyone will self identify as African and gay so they can be first in the company egg and spoon race
    Yada yada.

    The relationship between you and this topic - structural racism - is an odd one indeed. It's a widely acknowledged complex problem but rather than take a pass on it - as posters do all the time on things which either don’t interest them or they can’t get their heads around – what happens is you get angry at the mere mention of it, lashing out at those who take it seriously, risibly making out that to talk about White Privilege is some mortal threat to civilisation, or in lighter vein (which isn’t actually that light) erupting into spasms of “oh god what do we call them this week then?” jocularity, seeking to trivialize the whole thing.

    The term White Fragility is one I realize irritates but tough titty because it also nails a certain specific mindset and set of attitudes and we have living proof of its acuity right here.
    So structural racism is a real problem, but straying into antisemitism is a vile lie?

    Jews don't count.
    Discrimination in the UK - a left wing guide:

    Groups the UK discriminates against in the past and now, consciously or unconsciously: blacks, gays, trans people, asians (south and east), muslims, hindus, sikhs, zoroastrians, buddhists, 7th day adventists, mormons (less so since the musical), ufo believers.

    Groups the UK never has and now doesn't discriminate against: jews
    I don't think anyone claims that.

    What we are asking for is evidence that the current Civil Service is anti-semitic.

    Talking of the Paelestinian Mandate administration in the early part of the 20th century is not current.

    Neither are good diplomatic relations with Arab states evidence of anti-semitism.
    As I said earlier, I would doubt that there is too much anti-semitism in the civil service today because, ironically, of the "wokeism" that Truss complains of.

    There must be some, of course, as per @BartholomewRoberts' three scenarios so maybe this is just Truss pushing at an open door (I wonder what the reaction would have been if she had railed against homophobia - such virulent dismissal?).

    And there is as we have seen from various sources and posters a healthy "Arabist" tradition in the civil service plus on the left we have also seen with Jezza how pro-palestine/anti-israel can spill over into anti-semitism so again it's not out of the question for the civil service or those left wing members of it.

    In short, like Rumsfeld's known/unknowns, despite initial scepticism of the concept, @BartholomewRoberts has it pretty right in his categories. I'm also #1.
    So no evidence of anti-semitism in the Civil Service as an institution at all, just a bit of smearing.
    And, equally, no evidence for Bart's assertion that the "Jewish community" has expressed concerns about anti-semitism in the Civil Service. He's just ignored me, which he is of course entitled to do, but....
    Same question to you: do you have evidence that there is no anti-semitism in the Civil Service?
    Should I ask you to prove you are not a liar and a thief ?
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,962

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    https://twitter.com/KayBurley/status/1559098922697728001

    Can Liz Truss provide evidence to back her suggestion there is "woke" culture in the civil service that "strays into antisemitism"? We asked @BrandonLewis 👇👇 #KayBurley wx

    This was a fucking disgraceful allegation from Truss - and shows she is continuity Johnson. She is a liar.

    There's definitely Woke culture in public infrastructure projects.

    My client is holding a "power games" in Regent's Park on Wednesday evening hosted by the Unite for Race Equality network.

    Have a guess as to how they'll play that.
    Provide evidence there is widespread anti-Semitism in the Civil Service, she used the Jewish Community to further her political agenda.

    Anti-Semitism is something we all take seriously when it is founded. Instead she made the allegation then immediately ran away.

    She is an absolute disgrace - and this has made it clear for me. I will never vote Tory whilst anyone associated with her is in a position of power.
    They are going to hold "egg and spoon" races, and other fun outdoor classics, but ensure that one's starting position in these races is handicapped depending on what "group" you are in - because there must always be an identity politics lesson to be imbibed. Never just neutral fun teambuilding.

    For clarity, that means that a white male I would have to start behind others in the race - probably at the back - and that's the intersectionality lecture delivered.

    That is Wokery and it goes on *all the time*.

    At some point this is going to directly collide with my career ambitions, as I personally cannot abide it but, for now, I will have a "prior engagement" that unfortunately cannot get out of.
    Is that really what they do?!

    Jesus f Christ

    Is this private or public sector?
    The thought of Casino having to start behind in an egg & spoon race in Regents Park because he's white - this is surely an uncalled for humiliation to rank right alongside those caused by the structural racism it is meant to highlight!
    @Casino_Royale should just tell them he self-identifies as Indian due to Indian ancestry. What are these fuckers going to do then? Give him a genetic test? Check to see if he wobbles his head? Race is a social construct so it has no reality anyway, as the same Woke cranks keep telling us

    This is the surreal yet inevitable endpoint of Wokeness. Everyone will self identify as African and gay so they can be first in the company egg and spoon race
    Yada yada.

    The relationship between you and this topic - structural racism - is an odd one indeed. It's a widely acknowledged complex problem but rather than take a pass on it - as posters do all the time on things which either don’t interest them or they can’t get their heads around – what happens is you get angry at the mere mention of it, lashing out at those who take it seriously, risibly making out that to talk about White Privilege is some mortal threat to civilisation, or in lighter vein (which isn’t actually that light) erupting into spasms of “oh god what do we call them this week then?” jocularity, seeking to trivialize the whole thing.

    The term White Fragility is one I realize irritates but tough titty because it also nails a certain specific mindset and set of attitudes and we have living proof of its acuity right here.
    So structural racism is a real problem, but straying into antisemitism is a vile lie?

    Jews don't count.
    Return to sender. Poster who said "accusations of antisemitism are always a vile lie" unknown.
    I didn't say always.

    On this thread @Theuniondivvie @Northern_Al @CorrectHorseBattery and yourself have all angrily suggested that straying into antisemitism as alleged by Truss was a lie.

    Meanwhile you're banging on about "Fragility" and "structural" racism.

    Who is the "Fragile" one really, when comments as mild as Trusses about "straying into" racism attract such vitriol?

    Racism is Structural against every race apart from Jews it seems?

    Which is it, is structural racism real including against Jews, or is racism real but uniquely Jews don't count?
    Eh?
    I know you don't react well to requests for evidence, but can you say what qualifies as 'angrily' and 'suggests straying into antisemitism as alleged by Truss was a lie' in my posts? If you could manage not to do it angrily that would also be great.
    Apologies TUD, I tagged the wrong name, I'm very sorry about that. I meant @Stuartinromford so I'm very, very sorry I mixed that up and tagged you instead.

    This is the post I meant which claimed that saying that sometimes antisemitism is strayed into is a "lie" which I wrongly wrote your name for.
    image
    Fair enough. I try not to anything angrily this early in the day!
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 8,383
    TOPPING said:

    Foxy said:

    TOPPING said:

    Foxy said:

    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    https://twitter.com/KayBurley/status/1559098922697728001

    Can Liz Truss provide evidence to back her suggestion there is "woke" culture in the civil service that "strays into antisemitism"? We asked @BrandonLewis 👇👇 #KayBurley wx

    This was a fucking disgraceful allegation from Truss - and shows she is continuity Johnson. She is a liar.

    There's definitely Woke culture in public infrastructure projects.

    My client is holding a "power games" in Regent's Park on Wednesday evening hosted by the Unite for Race Equality network.

    Have a guess as to how they'll play that.
    Provide evidence there is widespread anti-Semitism in the Civil Service, she used the Jewish Community to further her political agenda.

    Anti-Semitism is something we all take seriously when it is founded. Instead she made the allegation then immediately ran away.

    She is an absolute disgrace - and this has made it clear for me. I will never vote Tory whilst anyone associated with her is in a position of power.
    They are going to hold "egg and spoon" races, and other fun outdoor classics, but ensure that one's starting position in these races is handicapped depending on what "group" you are in - because there must always be an identity politics lesson to be imbibed. Never just neutral fun teambuilding.

    For clarity, that means that a white male I would have to start behind others in the race - probably at the back - and that's the intersectionality lecture delivered.

    That is Wokery and it goes on *all the time*.

    At some point this is going to directly collide with my career ambitions, as I personally cannot abide it but, for now, I will have a "prior engagement" that unfortunately cannot get out of.
    Is that really what they do?!

    Jesus f Christ

    Is this private or public sector?
    The thought of Casino having to start behind in an egg & spoon race in Regents Park because he's white - this is surely an uncalled for humiliation to rank right alongside those caused by the structural racism it is meant to highlight!
    @Casino_Royale should just tell them he self-identifies as Indian due to Indian ancestry. What are these fuckers going to do then? Give him a genetic test? Check to see if he wobbles his head? Race is a social construct so it has no reality anyway, as the same Woke cranks keep telling us

    This is the surreal yet inevitable endpoint of Wokeness. Everyone will self identify as African and gay so they can be first in the company egg and spoon race
    Yada yada.

    The relationship between you and this topic - structural racism - is an odd one indeed. It's a widely acknowledged complex problem but rather than take a pass on it - as posters do all the time on things which either don’t interest them or they can’t get their heads around – what happens is you get angry at the mere mention of it, lashing out at those who take it seriously, risibly making out that to talk about White Privilege is some mortal threat to civilisation, or in lighter vein (which isn’t actually that light) erupting into spasms of “oh god what do we call them this week then?” jocularity, seeking to trivialize the whole thing.

    The term White Fragility is one I realize irritates but tough titty because it also nails a certain specific mindset and set of attitudes and we have living proof of its acuity right here.
    So structural racism is a real problem, but straying into antisemitism is a vile lie?

    Jews don't count.
    Discrimination in the UK - a left wing guide:

    Groups the UK discriminates against in the past and now, consciously or unconsciously: blacks, gays, trans people, asians (south and east), muslims, hindus, sikhs, zoroastrians, buddhists, 7th day adventists, mormons (less so since the musical), ufo believers.

    Groups the UK never has and now doesn't discriminate against: jews
    I don't think anyone claims that.

    What we are asking for is evidence that the current Civil Service is anti-semitic.

    Talking of the Paelestinian Mandate administration in the early part of the 20th century is not current.

    Neither are good diplomatic relations with Arab states evidence of anti-semitism.
    As I said earlier, I would doubt that there is too much anti-semitism in the civil service today because, ironically, of the "wokeism" that Truss complains of.

    There must be some, of course, as per @BartholomewRoberts' three scenarios so maybe this is just Truss pushing at an open door (I wonder what the reaction would have been if she had railed against homophobia - such virulent dismissal?).

    And there is as we have seen from various sources and posters a healthy "Arabist" tradition in the civil service plus on the left we have also seen with Jezza how pro-palestine/anti-israel can spill over into anti-semitism so again it's not out of the question for the civil service or those left wing members of it.

    In short, like Rumsfeld's known/unknowns, despite initial scepticism of the concept, @BartholomewRoberts has it pretty right in his categories. I'm also #1.
    So no evidence of anti-semitism in the Civil Service as an institution at all, just a bit of smearing.
    And, equally, no evidence for Bart's assertion that the "Jewish community" has expressed concerns about anti-semitism in the Civil Service. He's just ignored me, which he is of course entitled to do, but....
    Same question to you: do you have evidence that there is no anti-semitism in the Civil Service?
    No. But you know full well that you can't convict on the absence of evidence, otherwise antisemitism would be omnipresent - either it exists, or it hasn't been found yet.

    Also, thanks for the earlier rudeness about my career; I shall return to my paperclips while towering intellects like yours pontificate.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,309
    edited August 2022
    I am reliably informed by my extended family in Cornwall that it is now "absolutely pissing down" in Cornwall

    Ecce Delugium
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,072
    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    TOPPING said:

    Sean_F said:

    Nigelb said:

    ydoethur said:

    Sean_F said:

    TOPPING said:

    fwiw while I have little doubt that the UK civil service and FO was at best anti-Israel and at worst anti-semitic in the past, I would be surprised if there were too many anti-semites there now for precisely the reason (wokeness) that Truss complains of.

    That said, it is easy for those on the left (not you @Stark_Dawning ) to stray into anti-Israel/pro-Palestine/anti-semitism so perhaps that's what she's getting at.

    It was always a theme in Yes Minister that the Civil Service was "pro Arab" (to put it politely).

    It probably was a hangover from Imperial times, when ex colonial administrators had fond memories of the local sheikh or emir offering them a boy for the night, as a form of hospitality.
    I thought it was more simply that the Arabs had oil and the Israelis didn't. Piss off the Arabs and it had unfortunate consequences for our oil supply (as Eden found out). 'The PM should be concerned about the Oily Places not the Holy Places.'

    Of course, that may have been a cover for anti-semitic prejudice.
    That's post WWII, though, and hardly a novel development.

    Pre-war antisemitism was not exactly unusual in British society, as this (surprisingly un-judgmental) article suggests:
    https://thecritic.co.uk/issues/august-september-2021/such-such-were-the-goys/

    (Incidentally, I note that both Michael Gove and Theresa May are self proclaimed admirers of Dornford Yates.)
    Trollope has characters complaining "his greasy Israelitish smile", "a swarthy son of Judah", "a man whose father was probably selling matchsticks in Whitechapel". He had an especial loathing for Jews who converted to Christianity, who he saw as wolves in sheep's clothing. Mr. Melius, a popular preacher, is an immigrant from Bohemia and born a Jew, which makes him very suspect. It turns out, he is guilty of bigamy, and all good-thinking folk applaud when he gets ten years' imprisonment for it.
    Plus there is, you know, the biggie Jew from literature.
    St. Paul... Jesus ?
    Jehovah? Doesn't get much bigger!
    Would it be accurate to so describe a deity ?
    Personally, I've always felt like God is an Englishman. Ralph Richardson type, as in the movie. Means well, enormously powerful, a bit vague sometimes, ineffable and omniscient, drinks too much

    As to whether God is actually Jewish, there is an old Israeli saying - if God is really Jewish, and the Jews are His chosen people, how come the Arabs got all the oil?
    Jewish, yes - but not a Jew.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,962
    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    TOPPING said:

    Sean_F said:

    Nigelb said:

    ydoethur said:

    Sean_F said:

    TOPPING said:

    fwiw while I have little doubt that the UK civil service and FO was at best anti-Israel and at worst anti-semitic in the past, I would be surprised if there were too many anti-semites there now for precisely the reason (wokeness) that Truss complains of.

    That said, it is easy for those on the left (not you @Stark_Dawning ) to stray into anti-Israel/pro-Palestine/anti-semitism so perhaps that's what she's getting at.

    It was always a theme in Yes Minister that the Civil Service was "pro Arab" (to put it politely).

    It probably was a hangover from Imperial times, when ex colonial administrators had fond memories of the local sheikh or emir offering them a boy for the night, as a form of hospitality.
    I thought it was more simply that the Arabs had oil and the Israelis didn't. Piss off the Arabs and it had unfortunate consequences for our oil supply (as Eden found out). 'The PM should be concerned about the Oily Places not the Holy Places.'

    Of course, that may have been a cover for anti-semitic prejudice.
    That's post WWII, though, and hardly a novel development.

    Pre-war antisemitism was not exactly unusual in British society, as this (surprisingly un-judgmental) article suggests:
    https://thecritic.co.uk/issues/august-september-2021/such-such-were-the-goys/

    (Incidentally, I note that both Michael Gove and Theresa May are self proclaimed admirers of Dornford Yates.)
    Trollope has characters complaining "his greasy Israelitish smile", "a swarthy son of Judah", "a man whose father was probably selling matchsticks in Whitechapel". He had an especial loathing for Jews who converted to Christianity, who he saw as wolves in sheep's clothing. Mr. Melius, a popular preacher, is an immigrant from Bohemia and born a Jew, which makes him very suspect. It turns out, he is guilty of bigamy, and all good-thinking folk applaud when he gets ten years' imprisonment for it.
    Plus there is, you know, the biggie Jew from literature.
    St. Paul... Jesus ?
    Jehovah? Doesn't get much bigger!
    Would it be accurate to so describe a deity ?
    Personally, I've always felt like God is an Englishman. Ralph Richardson type, as in the movie. Means well, enormously powerful, a bit vague sometimes, ineffable and omniscient, drinks too much

    As to whether God is actually Jewish, there is an old Israeli saying - if God is really Jewish, and the Jews are His chosen people, how come the Arabs got all the oil?
    In that case God rides a (German) motorbike.


  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,957
    Nigelb said:

    .

    TOPPING said:

    Foxy said:

    TOPPING said:

    Foxy said:

    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    https://twitter.com/KayBurley/status/1559098922697728001

    Can Liz Truss provide evidence to back her suggestion there is "woke" culture in the civil service that "strays into antisemitism"? We asked @BrandonLewis 👇👇 #KayBurley wx

    This was a fucking disgraceful allegation from Truss - and shows she is continuity Johnson. She is a liar.

    There's definitely Woke culture in public infrastructure projects.

    My client is holding a "power games" in Regent's Park on Wednesday evening hosted by the Unite for Race Equality network.

    Have a guess as to how they'll play that.
    Provide evidence there is widespread anti-Semitism in the Civil Service, she used the Jewish Community to further her political agenda.

    Anti-Semitism is something we all take seriously when it is founded. Instead she made the allegation then immediately ran away.

    She is an absolute disgrace - and this has made it clear for me. I will never vote Tory whilst anyone associated with her is in a position of power.
    They are going to hold "egg and spoon" races, and other fun outdoor classics, but ensure that one's starting position in these races is handicapped depending on what "group" you are in - because there must always be an identity politics lesson to be imbibed. Never just neutral fun teambuilding.

    For clarity, that means that a white male I would have to start behind others in the race - probably at the back - and that's the intersectionality lecture delivered.

    That is Wokery and it goes on *all the time*.

    At some point this is going to directly collide with my career ambitions, as I personally cannot abide it but, for now, I will have a "prior engagement" that unfortunately cannot get out of.
    Is that really what they do?!

    Jesus f Christ

    Is this private or public sector?
    The thought of Casino having to start behind in an egg & spoon race in Regents Park because he's white - this is surely an uncalled for humiliation to rank right alongside those caused by the structural racism it is meant to highlight!
    @Casino_Royale should just tell them he self-identifies as Indian due to Indian ancestry. What are these fuckers going to do then? Give him a genetic test? Check to see if he wobbles his head? Race is a social construct so it has no reality anyway, as the same Woke cranks keep telling us

    This is the surreal yet inevitable endpoint of Wokeness. Everyone will self identify as African and gay so they can be first in the company egg and spoon race
    Yada yada.

    The relationship between you and this topic - structural racism - is an odd one indeed. It's a widely acknowledged complex problem but rather than take a pass on it - as posters do all the time on things which either don’t interest them or they can’t get their heads around – what happens is you get angry at the mere mention of it, lashing out at those who take it seriously, risibly making out that to talk about White Privilege is some mortal threat to civilisation, or in lighter vein (which isn’t actually that light) erupting into spasms of “oh god what do we call them this week then?” jocularity, seeking to trivialize the whole thing.

    The term White Fragility is one I realize irritates but tough titty because it also nails a certain specific mindset and set of attitudes and we have living proof of its acuity right here.
    So structural racism is a real problem, but straying into antisemitism is a vile lie?

    Jews don't count.
    Discrimination in the UK - a left wing guide:

    Groups the UK discriminates against in the past and now, consciously or unconsciously: blacks, gays, trans people, asians (south and east), muslims, hindus, sikhs, zoroastrians, buddhists, 7th day adventists, mormons (less so since the musical), ufo believers.

    Groups the UK never has and now doesn't discriminate against: jews
    I don't think anyone claims that.

    What we are asking for is evidence that the current Civil Service is anti-semitic.

    Talking of the Paelestinian Mandate administration in the early part of the 20th century is not current.

    Neither are good diplomatic relations with Arab states evidence of anti-semitism.
    As I said earlier, I would doubt that there is too much anti-semitism in the civil service today because, ironically, of the "wokeism" that Truss complains of.

    There must be some, of course, as per @BartholomewRoberts' three scenarios so maybe this is just Truss pushing at an open door (I wonder what the reaction would have been if she had railed against homophobia - such virulent dismissal?).

    And there is as we have seen from various sources and posters a healthy "Arabist" tradition in the civil service plus on the left we have also seen with Jezza how pro-palestine/anti-israel can spill over into anti-semitism so again it's not out of the question for the civil service or those left wing members of it.

    In short, like Rumsfeld's known/unknowns, despite initial scepticism of the concept, @BartholomewRoberts has it pretty right in his categories. I'm also #1.
    So no evidence of anti-semitism in the Civil Service as an institution at all, just a bit of smearing.
    And, equally, no evidence for Bart's assertion that the "Jewish community" has expressed concerns about anti-semitism in the Civil Service. He's just ignored me, which he is of course entitled to do, but....
    Same question to you: do you have evidence that there is no anti-semitism in the Civil Service?
    Should I ask you to prove you are not a liar and a thief ?
    You could try to answer the question.

    Or perhaps I will reframe it. Do you think (you personally, your own view no prizes or penalties for the right/wrong answer) that there is no discrimination in the Civil Service based upon peoples' race/religion/sexual orientation/etc.
  • nico679nico679 Posts: 6,275
    Given the results so far on the YouGov live poll the public are in an unforgiving mood when it comes to energy companies .

    A huge majority for freezing the energy cap and the same for the government not subsidizing the energy companies .

    You’re either on the side of the public or energy companies and the public aren’t interested in Truss’s defence of their profits .

    Starmer and Labour have played a blinder and regardless now have won the argument even if Mrs U-turn does another one .
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,309
    edited August 2022
    Nigelb said:

    .

    TOPPING said:

    Foxy said:

    TOPPING said:

    Foxy said:

    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    https://twitter.com/KayBurley/status/1559098922697728001

    Can Liz Truss provide evidence to back her suggestion there is "woke" culture in the civil service that "strays into antisemitism"? We asked @BrandonLewis 👇👇 #KayBurley wx

    This was a fucking disgraceful allegation from Truss - and shows she is continuity Johnson. She is a liar.

    There's definitely Woke culture in public infrastructure projects.

    My client is holding a "power games" in Regent's Park on Wednesday evening hosted by the Unite for Race Equality network.

    Have a guess as to how they'll play that.
    Provide evidence there is widespread anti-Semitism in the Civil Service, she used the Jewish Community to further her political agenda.

    Anti-Semitism is something we all take seriously when it is founded. Instead she made the allegation then immediately ran away.

    She is an absolute disgrace - and this has made it clear for me. I will never vote Tory whilst anyone associated with her is in a position of power.
    They are going to hold "egg and spoon" races, and other fun outdoor classics, but ensure that one's starting position in these races is handicapped depending on what "group" you are in - because there must always be an identity politics lesson to be imbibed. Never just neutral fun teambuilding.

    For clarity, that means that a white male I would have to start behind others in the race - probably at the back - and that's the intersectionality lecture delivered.

    That is Wokery and it goes on *all the time*.

    At some point this is going to directly collide with my career ambitions, as I personally cannot abide it but, for now, I will have a "prior engagement" that unfortunately cannot get out of.
    Is that really what they do?!

    Jesus f Christ

    Is this private or public sector?
    The thought of Casino having to start behind in an egg & spoon race in Regents Park because he's white - this is surely an uncalled for humiliation to rank right alongside those caused by the structural racism it is meant to highlight!
    @Casino_Royale should just tell them he self-identifies as Indian due to Indian ancestry. What are these fuckers going to do then? Give him a genetic test? Check to see if he wobbles his head? Race is a social construct so it has no reality anyway, as the same Woke cranks keep telling us

    This is the surreal yet inevitable endpoint of Wokeness. Everyone will self identify as African and gay so they can be first in the company egg and spoon race
    Yada yada.

    The relationship between you and this topic - structural racism - is an odd one indeed. It's a widely acknowledged complex problem but rather than take a pass on it - as posters do all the time on things which either don’t interest them or they can’t get their heads around – what happens is you get angry at the mere mention of it, lashing out at those who take it seriously, risibly making out that to talk about White Privilege is some mortal threat to civilisation, or in lighter vein (which isn’t actually that light) erupting into spasms of “oh god what do we call them this week then?” jocularity, seeking to trivialize the whole thing.

    The term White Fragility is one I realize irritates but tough titty because it also nails a certain specific mindset and set of attitudes and we have living proof of its acuity right here.
    So structural racism is a real problem, but straying into antisemitism is a vile lie?

    Jews don't count.
    Discrimination in the UK - a left wing guide:

    Groups the UK discriminates against in the past and now, consciously or unconsciously: blacks, gays, trans people, asians (south and east), muslims, hindus, sikhs, zoroastrians, buddhists, 7th day adventists, mormons (less so since the musical), ufo believers.

    Groups the UK never has and now doesn't discriminate against: jews
    I don't think anyone claims that.

    What we are asking for is evidence that the current Civil Service is anti-semitic.

    Talking of the Paelestinian Mandate administration in the early part of the 20th century is not current.

    Neither are good diplomatic relations with Arab states evidence of anti-semitism.
    As I said earlier, I would doubt that there is too much anti-semitism in the civil service today because, ironically, of the "wokeism" that Truss complains of.

    There must be some, of course, as per @BartholomewRoberts' three scenarios so maybe this is just Truss pushing at an open door (I wonder what the reaction would have been if she had railed against homophobia - such virulent dismissal?).

    And there is as we have seen from various sources and posters a healthy "Arabist" tradition in the civil service plus on the left we have also seen with Jezza how pro-palestine/anti-israel can spill over into anti-semitism so again it's not out of the question for the civil service or those left wing members of it.

    In short, like Rumsfeld's known/unknowns, despite initial scepticism of the concept, @BartholomewRoberts has it pretty right in his categories. I'm also #1.
    So no evidence of anti-semitism in the Civil Service as an institution at all, just a bit of smearing.
    And, equally, no evidence for Bart's assertion that the "Jewish community" has expressed concerns about anti-semitism in the Civil Service. He's just ignored me, which he is of course entitled to do, but....
    Same question to you: do you have evidence that there is no anti-semitism in the Civil Service?
    Should I ask you to prove you are not a liar and a thief ?
    I get confused when you @Nigelb interact with @TOPPING and/or @IshmaelZ - or when they interact with you, or with each other - as I always presume you are basically the same person. About 60, lives alone in Devon but comes to London sometimes, mildly cantankerous, oddly woke for a quite posh shire Tory type, gets drunk around 5pm, fond of badger baiting
  • kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    https://twitter.com/KayBurley/status/1559098922697728001

    Can Liz Truss provide evidence to back her suggestion there is "woke" culture in the civil service that "strays into antisemitism"? We asked @BrandonLewis 👇👇 #KayBurley wx

    This was a fucking disgraceful allegation from Truss - and shows she is continuity Johnson. She is a liar.

    There's definitely Woke culture in public infrastructure projects.

    My client is holding a "power games" in Regent's Park on Wednesday evening hosted by the Unite for Race Equality network.

    Have a guess as to how they'll play that.
    Provide evidence there is widespread anti-Semitism in the Civil Service, she used the Jewish Community to further her political agenda.

    Anti-Semitism is something we all take seriously when it is founded. Instead she made the allegation then immediately ran away.

    She is an absolute disgrace - and this has made it clear for me. I will never vote Tory whilst anyone associated with her is in a position of power.
    They are going to hold "egg and spoon" races, and other fun outdoor classics, but ensure that one's starting position in these races is handicapped depending on what "group" you are in - because there must always be an identity politics lesson to be imbibed. Never just neutral fun teambuilding.

    For clarity, that means that a white male I would have to start behind others in the race - probably at the back - and that's the intersectionality lecture delivered.

    That is Wokery and it goes on *all the time*.

    At some point this is going to directly collide with my career ambitions, as I personally cannot abide it but, for now, I will have a "prior engagement" that unfortunately cannot get out of.
    Is that really what they do?!

    Jesus f Christ

    Is this private or public sector?
    The thought of Casino having to start behind in an egg & spoon race in Regents Park because he's white - this is surely an uncalled for humiliation to rank right alongside those caused by the structural racism it is meant to highlight!
    @Casino_Royale should just tell them he self-identifies as Indian due to Indian ancestry. What are these fuckers going to do then? Give him a genetic test? Check to see if he wobbles his head? Race is a social construct so it has no reality anyway, as the same Woke cranks keep telling us

    This is the surreal yet inevitable endpoint of Wokeness. Everyone will self identify as African and gay so they can be first in the company egg and spoon race
    Yada yada.

    The relationship between you and this topic - structural racism - is an odd one indeed. It's a widely acknowledged complex problem but rather than take a pass on it - as posters do all the time on things which either don’t interest them or they can’t get their heads around – what happens is you get angry at the mere mention of it, lashing out at those who take it seriously, risibly making out that to talk about White Privilege is some mortal threat to civilisation, or in lighter vein (which isn’t actually that light) erupting into spasms of “oh god what do we call them this week then?” jocularity, seeking to trivialize the whole thing.

    The term White Fragility is one I realize irritates but tough titty because it also nails a certain specific mindset and set of attitudes and we have living proof of its acuity right here.
    So structural racism is a real problem, but straying into antisemitism is a vile lie?

    Jews don't count.
    Return to sender. Poster who said "accusations of antisemitism are always a vile lie" unknown.
    I didn't say always.

    On this thread @Theuniondivvie @Northern_Al @CorrectHorseBattery and yourself have all angrily suggested that straying into antisemitism as alleged by Truss was a lie.

    Meanwhile you're banging on about "Fragility" and "structural" racism.

    Who is the "Fragile" one really, when comments as mild as Trusses about "straying into" racism attract such vitriol?

    Racism is Structural against every race apart from Jews it seems?

    Which is it, is structural racism real including against Jews, or is racism real but uniquely Jews don't count?
    Eh?
    I know you don't react well to requests for evidence, but can you say what qualifies as 'angrily' and 'suggests straying into antisemitism as alleged by Truss was a lie' in my posts? If you could manage not to do it angrily that would also be great.
    Apologies TUD, I tagged the wrong name, I'm very sorry about that. I meant @Stuartinromford so I'm very, very sorry I mixed that up and tagged you instead.

    This is the post I meant which claimed that saying that sometimes antisemitism is strayed into is a "lie" which I wrongly wrote your name for.
    image
    "angry"? I'm not angry, just disappointed.

    And, whilst I don't want to spill over into defences of Jez, there is a difference between Jews as a race and community and the state of Israel.

    And as one commentator put it,

    Hard to overstate how bad you have to be at politics to send out a press release on your commitment to end antisemitism and piss off Jews this much.

    https://twitter.com/Samfr/status/1558212639129575426

  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    Leon said:

    I am reliably informed by my extended family in Cornwall that is now "absolutely pissing down" in Cornwall

    Ecce Delugium

    Truro and Falmouth, not universally

    https://www.netweather.tv/live-weather/radar
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,957

    TOPPING said:

    Foxy said:

    TOPPING said:

    Foxy said:

    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    https://twitter.com/KayBurley/status/1559098922697728001

    Can Liz Truss provide evidence to back her suggestion there is "woke" culture in the civil service that "strays into antisemitism"? We asked @BrandonLewis 👇👇 #KayBurley wx

    This was a fucking disgraceful allegation from Truss - and shows she is continuity Johnson. She is a liar.

    There's definitely Woke culture in public infrastructure projects.

    My client is holding a "power games" in Regent's Park on Wednesday evening hosted by the Unite for Race Equality network.

    Have a guess as to how they'll play that.
    Provide evidence there is widespread anti-Semitism in the Civil Service, she used the Jewish Community to further her political agenda.

    Anti-Semitism is something we all take seriously when it is founded. Instead she made the allegation then immediately ran away.

    She is an absolute disgrace - and this has made it clear for me. I will never vote Tory whilst anyone associated with her is in a position of power.
    They are going to hold "egg and spoon" races, and other fun outdoor classics, but ensure that one's starting position in these races is handicapped depending on what "group" you are in - because there must always be an identity politics lesson to be imbibed. Never just neutral fun teambuilding.

    For clarity, that means that a white male I would have to start behind others in the race - probably at the back - and that's the intersectionality lecture delivered.

    That is Wokery and it goes on *all the time*.

    At some point this is going to directly collide with my career ambitions, as I personally cannot abide it but, for now, I will have a "prior engagement" that unfortunately cannot get out of.
    Is that really what they do?!

    Jesus f Christ

    Is this private or public sector?
    The thought of Casino having to start behind in an egg & spoon race in Regents Park because he's white - this is surely an uncalled for humiliation to rank right alongside those caused by the structural racism it is meant to highlight!
    @Casino_Royale should just tell them he self-identifies as Indian due to Indian ancestry. What are these fuckers going to do then? Give him a genetic test? Check to see if he wobbles his head? Race is a social construct so it has no reality anyway, as the same Woke cranks keep telling us

    This is the surreal yet inevitable endpoint of Wokeness. Everyone will self identify as African and gay so they can be first in the company egg and spoon race
    Yada yada.

    The relationship between you and this topic - structural racism - is an odd one indeed. It's a widely acknowledged complex problem but rather than take a pass on it - as posters do all the time on things which either don’t interest them or they can’t get their heads around – what happens is you get angry at the mere mention of it, lashing out at those who take it seriously, risibly making out that to talk about White Privilege is some mortal threat to civilisation, or in lighter vein (which isn’t actually that light) erupting into spasms of “oh god what do we call them this week then?” jocularity, seeking to trivialize the whole thing.

    The term White Fragility is one I realize irritates but tough titty because it also nails a certain specific mindset and set of attitudes and we have living proof of its acuity right here.
    So structural racism is a real problem, but straying into antisemitism is a vile lie?

    Jews don't count.
    Discrimination in the UK - a left wing guide:

    Groups the UK discriminates against in the past and now, consciously or unconsciously: blacks, gays, trans people, asians (south and east), muslims, hindus, sikhs, zoroastrians, buddhists, 7th day adventists, mormons (less so since the musical), ufo believers.

    Groups the UK never has and now doesn't discriminate against: jews
    I don't think anyone claims that.

    What we are asking for is evidence that the current Civil Service is anti-semitic.

    Talking of the Paelestinian Mandate administration in the early part of the 20th century is not current.

    Neither are good diplomatic relations with Arab states evidence of anti-semitism.
    As I said earlier, I would doubt that there is too much anti-semitism in the civil service today because, ironically, of the "wokeism" that Truss complains of.

    There must be some, of course, as per @BartholomewRoberts' three scenarios so maybe this is just Truss pushing at an open door (I wonder what the reaction would have been if she had railed against homophobia - such virulent dismissal?).

    And there is as we have seen from various sources and posters a healthy "Arabist" tradition in the civil service plus on the left we have also seen with Jezza how pro-palestine/anti-israel can spill over into anti-semitism so again it's not out of the question for the civil service or those left wing members of it.

    In short, like Rumsfeld's known/unknowns, despite initial scepticism of the concept, @BartholomewRoberts has it pretty right in his categories. I'm also #1.
    So no evidence of anti-semitism in the Civil Service as an institution at all, just a bit of smearing.
    And, equally, no evidence for Bart's assertion that the "Jewish community" has expressed concerns about anti-semitism in the Civil Service. He's just ignored me, which he is of course entitled to do, but....
    Same question to you: do you have evidence that there is no anti-semitism in the Civil Service?
    No. But you know full well that you can't convict on the absence of evidence, otherwise antisemitism would be omnipresent - either it exists, or it hasn't been found yet.

    Also, thanks for the earlier rudeness about my career; I shall return to my paperclips while towering intellects like yours pontificate.
    Exactly. You have no evidence that there is no anti-semitism (or indeed any other form of discrimination) in the Civil Service. So it is possible if not probable (and perhaps it is probable) that there is discrimination in the Civil Service. So if Truss for her own reasons decided to focus on this corner of likely discrimination in the Civil Service shouldn't you be rejoicing that she is on a course to weed it out.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,072
    TOPPING said:

    Nigelb said:

    TOPPING said:

    Sean_F said:

    Nigelb said:

    ydoethur said:

    Sean_F said:

    TOPPING said:

    fwiw while I have little doubt that the UK civil service and FO was at best anti-Israel and at worst anti-semitic in the past, I would be surprised if there were too many anti-semites there now for precisely the reason (wokeness) that Truss complains of.

    That said, it is easy for those on the left (not you @Stark_Dawning ) to stray into anti-Israel/pro-Palestine/anti-semitism so perhaps that's what she's getting at.

    It was always a theme in Yes Minister that the Civil Service was "pro Arab" (to put it politely).

    It probably was a hangover from Imperial times, when ex colonial administrators had fond memories of the local sheikh or emir offering them a boy for the night, as a form of hospitality.
    I thought it was more simply that the Arabs had oil and the Israelis didn't. Piss off the Arabs and it had unfortunate consequences for our oil supply (as Eden found out). 'The PM should be concerned about the Oily Places not the Holy Places.'

    Of course, that may have been a cover for anti-semitic prejudice.
    That's post WWII, though, and hardly a novel development.

    Pre-war antisemitism was not exactly unusual in British society, as this (surprisingly un-judgmental) article suggests:
    https://thecritic.co.uk/issues/august-september-2021/such-such-were-the-goys/

    (Incidentally, I note that both Michael Gove and Theresa May are self proclaimed admirers of Dornford Yates.)
    Trollope has characters complaining "his greasy Israelitish smile", "a swarthy son of Judah", "a man whose father was probably selling matchsticks in Whitechapel". He had an especial loathing for Jews who converted to Christianity, who he saw as wolves in sheep's clothing. Mr. Melius, a popular preacher, is an immigrant from Bohemia and born a Jew, which makes him very suspect. It turns out, he is guilty of bigamy, and all good-thinking folk applaud when he gets ten years' imprisonment for it.
    Plus there is, you know, the biggie Jew from literature.
    St. Paul... Jesus ?
    Question: "I am a Jew. Hath not a Jew eyes? Hath not a Jew hands, organs, dimensions, senses, affections, passions; fed with the same food, hurt with the same weapons, subject to the same diseases..."

    ...
    The Elizabethan dramas (see also to an extent Marlowe's The Jew of Malta) are interesting in that respect.
    While steeped in anti-semitism, those two writers (if not the rest of the characters in them) treat their Jewish protagonists as real people, sympathetic even, rather than as ciphers.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,957
    I thought God was supposed to be Brian Blessed.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,072
    edited August 2022
    TOPPING said:

    Nigelb said:

    .

    TOPPING said:

    Foxy said:

    TOPPING said:

    Foxy said:

    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    https://twitter.com/KayBurley/status/1559098922697728001

    Can Liz Truss provide evidence to back her suggestion there is "woke" culture in the civil service that "strays into antisemitism"? We asked @BrandonLewis 👇👇 #KayBurley wx

    This was a fucking disgraceful allegation from Truss - and shows she is continuity Johnson. She is a liar.

    There's definitely Woke culture in public infrastructure projects.

    My client is holding a "power games" in Regent's Park on Wednesday evening hosted by the Unite for Race Equality network.

    Have a guess as to how they'll play that.
    Provide evidence there is widespread anti-Semitism in the Civil Service, she used the Jewish Community to further her political agenda.

    Anti-Semitism is something we all take seriously when it is founded. Instead she made the allegation then immediately ran away.

    She is an absolute disgrace - and this has made it clear for me. I will never vote Tory whilst anyone associated with her is in a position of power.
    They are going to hold "egg and spoon" races, and other fun outdoor classics, but ensure that one's starting position in these races is handicapped depending on what "group" you are in - because there must always be an identity politics lesson to be imbibed. Never just neutral fun teambuilding.

    For clarity, that means that a white male I would have to start behind others in the race - probably at the back - and that's the intersectionality lecture delivered.

    That is Wokery and it goes on *all the time*.

    At some point this is going to directly collide with my career ambitions, as I personally cannot abide it but, for now, I will have a "prior engagement" that unfortunately cannot get out of.
    Is that really what they do?!

    Jesus f Christ

    Is this private or public sector?
    The thought of Casino having to start behind in an egg & spoon race in Regents Park because he's white - this is surely an uncalled for humiliation to rank right alongside those caused by the structural racism it is meant to highlight!
    @Casino_Royale should just tell them he self-identifies as Indian due to Indian ancestry. What are these fuckers going to do then? Give him a genetic test? Check to see if he wobbles his head? Race is a social construct so it has no reality anyway, as the same Woke cranks keep telling us

    This is the surreal yet inevitable endpoint of Wokeness. Everyone will self identify as African and gay so they can be first in the company egg and spoon race
    Yada yada.

    The relationship between you and this topic - structural racism - is an odd one indeed. It's a widely acknowledged complex problem but rather than take a pass on it - as posters do all the time on things which either don’t interest them or they can’t get their heads around – what happens is you get angry at the mere mention of it, lashing out at those who take it seriously, risibly making out that to talk about White Privilege is some mortal threat to civilisation, or in lighter vein (which isn’t actually that light) erupting into spasms of “oh god what do we call them this week then?” jocularity, seeking to trivialize the whole thing.

    The term White Fragility is one I realize irritates but tough titty because it also nails a certain specific mindset and set of attitudes and we have living proof of its acuity right here.
    So structural racism is a real problem, but straying into antisemitism is a vile lie?

    Jews don't count.
    Discrimination in the UK - a left wing guide:

    Groups the UK discriminates against in the past and now, consciously or unconsciously: blacks, gays, trans people, asians (south and east), muslims, hindus, sikhs, zoroastrians, buddhists, 7th day adventists, mormons (less so since the musical), ufo believers.

    Groups the UK never has and now doesn't discriminate against: jews
    I don't think anyone claims that.

    What we are asking for is evidence that the current Civil Service is anti-semitic.

    Talking of the Paelestinian Mandate administration in the early part of the 20th century is not current.

    Neither are good diplomatic relations with Arab states evidence of anti-semitism.
    As I said earlier, I would doubt that there is too much anti-semitism in the civil service today because, ironically, of the "wokeism" that Truss complains of.

    There must be some, of course, as per @BartholomewRoberts' three scenarios so maybe this is just Truss pushing at an open door (I wonder what the reaction would have been if she had railed against homophobia - such virulent dismissal?).

    And there is as we have seen from various sources and posters a healthy "Arabist" tradition in the civil service plus on the left we have also seen with Jezza how pro-palestine/anti-israel can spill over into anti-semitism so again it's not out of the question for the civil service or those left wing members of it.

    In short, like Rumsfeld's known/unknowns, despite initial scepticism of the concept, @BartholomewRoberts has it pretty right in his categories. I'm also #1.
    So no evidence of anti-semitism in the Civil Service as an institution at all, just a bit of smearing.
    And, equally, no evidence for Bart's assertion that the "Jewish community" has expressed concerns about anti-semitism in the Civil Service. He's just ignored me, which he is of course entitled to do, but....
    Same question to you: do you have evidence that there is no anti-semitism in the Civil Service?
    Should I ask you to prove you are not a liar and a thief ?
    You could try to answer the question.

    Or perhaps I will reframe it. Do you think (you personally, your own view no prizes or penalties for the right/wrong answer) that there is no discrimination in the Civil Service based upon peoples' race/religion/sexual orientation/etc.
    No, I don't.
    But equally, I don't think that the person likely to be our next PM ought to be throwing around general accusations of anti-semitism without strong evidence.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,061
    edited August 2022
    nico679 said:

    Given the results so far on the YouGov live poll the public are in an unforgiving mood when it comes to energy companies .

    A huge majority for freezing the energy cap and the same for the government not subsidizing the energy companies .

    You’re either on the side of the public or energy companies and the public aren’t interested in Truss’s defence of their profits .

    Starmer and Labour have played a blinder and regardless now have won the argument even if Mrs U-turn does another one .

    Starmers plan subdidizes the energy companies
    Edit - and hes cancelling the £400 rebate per household by the looks of it
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,153
    edited August 2022
    moonshine said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    https://twitter.com/KayBurley/status/1559098922697728001

    Can Liz Truss provide evidence to back her suggestion there is "woke" culture in the civil service that "strays into antisemitism"? We asked @BrandonLewis 👇👇 #KayBurley wx

    This was a fucking disgraceful allegation from Truss - and shows she is continuity Johnson. She is a liar.

    There's definitely Woke culture in public infrastructure projects.

    My client is holding a "power games" in Regent's Park on Wednesday evening hosted by the Unite for Race Equality network.

    Have a guess as to how they'll play that.
    Provide evidence there is widespread anti-Semitism in the Civil Service, she used the Jewish Community to further her political agenda.

    Anti-Semitism is something we all take seriously when it is founded. Instead she made the allegation then immediately ran away.

    She is an absolute disgrace - and this has made it clear for me. I will never vote Tory whilst anyone associated with her is in a position of power.
    They are going to hold "egg and spoon" races, and other fun outdoor classics, but ensure that one's starting position in these races is handicapped depending on what "group" you are in - because there must always be an identity politics lesson to be imbibed. Never just neutral fun teambuilding.

    For clarity, that means that a white male I would have to start behind others in the race - probably at the back - and that's the intersectionality lecture delivered.

    That is Wokery and it goes on *all the time*.

    At some point this is going to directly collide with my career ambitions, as I personally cannot abide it but, for now, I will have a "prior engagement" that unfortunately cannot get out of.
    Is that really what they do?!

    Jesus f Christ

    Is this private or public sector?
    The thought of Casino having to start behind in an egg & spoon race in Regents Park because he's white - this is surely an uncalled for humiliation to rank right alongside those caused by the structural racism it is meant to highlight!
    @Casino_Royale should just tell them he self-identifies as Indian due to Indian ancestry. What are these fuckers going to do then? Give him a genetic test? Check to see if he wobbles his head? Race is a social construct so it has no reality anyway, as the same Woke cranks keep telling us

    This is the surreal yet inevitable endpoint of Wokeness. Everyone will self identify as African and gay so they can be first in the company egg and spoon race
    Yada yada.

    The relationship between you and this topic - structural racism - is an odd one indeed. It's a widely acknowledged complex problem but rather than take a pass on it - as posters do all the time on things which either don’t interest them or they can’t get their heads around – what happens is you get angry at the mere mention of it, lashing out at those who take it seriously, risibly making out that to talk about White Privilege is some mortal threat to civilisation, or in lighter vein (which isn’t actually that light) erupting into spasms of “oh god what do we call them this week then?” jocularity, seeking to trivialize the whole thing.

    The term White Fragility is one I realize irritates but tough titty because it also nails a certain specific mindset and set of attitudes and we have living proof of its acuity right here.
    Your word salad has rather spoilt my appetite right before lunch.
    It was written ok. Bet you just saw "White Fragility" and switched off.

    Guess what that's a great example of? :smile:
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,309
    IshmaelZ said:

    Leon said:

    I am reliably informed by my extended family in Cornwall that is now "absolutely pissing down" in Cornwall

    Ecce Delugium

    Truro and Falmouth, not universally

    https://www.netweather.tv/live-weather/radar
    That makes sense, as that is where most of them live


    We need a storm in London, quite desperately. It is infernally clammy now


    Blow, winds, and crack your cheeks! rage! blow!
    You cataracts and hurricanoes, spout
    Till you have drench'd our steeples, drown'd the cocks!
    You sulphurous and thought-executing fires,
    Vaunt-couriers to oak-cleaving thunderbolts,
    Singe my white head!
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,072
    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    .

    TOPPING said:

    Foxy said:

    TOPPING said:

    Foxy said:

    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    https://twitter.com/KayBurley/status/1559098922697728001

    Can Liz Truss provide evidence to back her suggestion there is "woke" culture in the civil service that "strays into antisemitism"? We asked @BrandonLewis 👇👇 #KayBurley wx

    This was a fucking disgraceful allegation from Truss - and shows she is continuity Johnson. She is a liar.

    There's definitely Woke culture in public infrastructure projects.

    My client is holding a "power games" in Regent's Park on Wednesday evening hosted by the Unite for Race Equality network.

    Have a guess as to how they'll play that.
    Provide evidence there is widespread anti-Semitism in the Civil Service, she used the Jewish Community to further her political agenda.

    Anti-Semitism is something we all take seriously when it is founded. Instead she made the allegation then immediately ran away.

    She is an absolute disgrace - and this has made it clear for me. I will never vote Tory whilst anyone associated with her is in a position of power.
    They are going to hold "egg and spoon" races, and other fun outdoor classics, but ensure that one's starting position in these races is handicapped depending on what "group" you are in - because there must always be an identity politics lesson to be imbibed. Never just neutral fun teambuilding.

    For clarity, that means that a white male I would have to start behind others in the race - probably at the back - and that's the intersectionality lecture delivered.

    That is Wokery and it goes on *all the time*.

    At some point this is going to directly collide with my career ambitions, as I personally cannot abide it but, for now, I will have a "prior engagement" that unfortunately cannot get out of.
    Is that really what they do?!

    Jesus f Christ

    Is this private or public sector?
    The thought of Casino having to start behind in an egg & spoon race in Regents Park because he's white - this is surely an uncalled for humiliation to rank right alongside those caused by the structural racism it is meant to highlight!
    @Casino_Royale should just tell them he self-identifies as Indian due to Indian ancestry. What are these fuckers going to do then? Give him a genetic test? Check to see if he wobbles his head? Race is a social construct so it has no reality anyway, as the same Woke cranks keep telling us

    This is the surreal yet inevitable endpoint of Wokeness. Everyone will self identify as African and gay so they can be first in the company egg and spoon race
    Yada yada.

    The relationship between you and this topic - structural racism - is an odd one indeed. It's a widely acknowledged complex problem but rather than take a pass on it - as posters do all the time on things which either don’t interest them or they can’t get their heads around – what happens is you get angry at the mere mention of it, lashing out at those who take it seriously, risibly making out that to talk about White Privilege is some mortal threat to civilisation, or in lighter vein (which isn’t actually that light) erupting into spasms of “oh god what do we call them this week then?” jocularity, seeking to trivialize the whole thing.

    The term White Fragility is one I realize irritates but tough titty because it also nails a certain specific mindset and set of attitudes and we have living proof of its acuity right here.
    So structural racism is a real problem, but straying into antisemitism is a vile lie?

    Jews don't count.
    Discrimination in the UK - a left wing guide:

    Groups the UK discriminates against in the past and now, consciously or unconsciously: blacks, gays, trans people, asians (south and east), muslims, hindus, sikhs, zoroastrians, buddhists, 7th day adventists, mormons (less so since the musical), ufo believers.

    Groups the UK never has and now doesn't discriminate against: jews
    I don't think anyone claims that.

    What we are asking for is evidence that the current Civil Service is anti-semitic.

    Talking of the Paelestinian Mandate administration in the early part of the 20th century is not current.

    Neither are good diplomatic relations with Arab states evidence of anti-semitism.
    As I said earlier, I would doubt that there is too much anti-semitism in the civil service today because, ironically, of the "wokeism" that Truss complains of.

    There must be some, of course, as per @BartholomewRoberts' three scenarios so maybe this is just Truss pushing at an open door (I wonder what the reaction would have been if she had railed against homophobia - such virulent dismissal?).

    And there is as we have seen from various sources and posters a healthy "Arabist" tradition in the civil service plus on the left we have also seen with Jezza how pro-palestine/anti-israel can spill over into anti-semitism so again it's not out of the question for the civil service or those left wing members of it.

    In short, like Rumsfeld's known/unknowns, despite initial scepticism of the concept, @BartholomewRoberts has it pretty right in his categories. I'm also #1.
    So no evidence of anti-semitism in the Civil Service as an institution at all, just a bit of smearing.
    And, equally, no evidence for Bart's assertion that the "Jewish community" has expressed concerns about anti-semitism in the Civil Service. He's just ignored me, which he is of course entitled to do, but....
    Same question to you: do you have evidence that there is no anti-semitism in the Civil Service?
    Should I ask you to prove you are not a liar and a thief ?
    I get confused when you @Nigelb interact with @TOPPING and/or @IshmaelZ - or when they interact with you, or with each other - as I always presume you are basically the same person. About 60, lives alone in Devon but comes to London sometimes, mildly cantankerous, oddly woke for a quite posh shire Tory type, gets drunk around 5pm, fond of badger baiting
    Well you do seem easily confused.
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