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Read the wording carefully on US Senate bets – politicalbetting.com

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  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,368
    HYUFD said:

    Interest rates rise by 0.5%, biggest rise for 27 years.

    Will be interesting to see if it has any impact on house prices

    It will, but not just yet.

    I am looking to sell a property in Fratton, Portsmouth and the Estate Agent suggested that he is expecting things to get a little bit naughty in the early part of next year. The value of the property has increased from £220k in 2019 to a shade under £300k today. That is unsustainable.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298
    The US does seem to have a deeply engrained, more positive culture toward entrepreneurship and I presume therefore financial risk.

    That made sense during the days of frontier expansion, but perhaps less so now.

    Nevertheless, it would good to figure out how much the UK could get some of that. It seems to be a factor independent of the actual regulatory and perhaps even fiscal burden.
  • Alistair said:

    MaxPB said:

    dixiedean said:

    RPI predicted to peak at 18%!!

    The government is fucked. If that happens then around £600bn of our debt will attract RPI plus the coupon, so an average of ~19%, plus the interest on all of the other £1.2tn non index linked bonds.

    We're looking at a debt servicing cost of £130-150bn per year. Absolutely insane.
    And this is why inflation linked bonds should always form part og a personal investment portfolio
    By luck, I do have a reasonable sum in index-linked bonds, but I doubt that you can buy them at the moment.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,921
    MaxPB said:

    ohnotnow said:

    Just reading some voxpop-esque stuff on the BBC. My heart is bleeding...

    Louise and her husband have been saving to move home in Brighton since 2020, but they're having a major rethink.

    "We've had to substantially reconsider the amount of money we can borrow, says Louise.

    They'd been hoping to move to a bigger house so they could start a family.

    But now they can only afford smaller houses, Louise says it's "making us wonder whether we should bother moving at all".

    "Our options are either to stay put where we are or move to something about £200,000 cheaper than we had hoped."
    Maybe, but look at the underlying message there - couple who want to start a family are now unlikely to do so because they can't afford to move into their desired house.

    @Leon is right, the nation needs to have a rethink on how we approach old age care provision. The current mandate the NHS has to extend life at any cost is going to bankrupt the nation. Providing expensive care for a 90 year old so they can live for 6 more months results in higher taxes and lower income for working age people and less availability of housing which pushes up housing costs.

    You may dismiss these people but we need families and we need policies to help couples become families. Not just laugh at their misfortune.
    The average age at which most people own a property is 39 not 69.

    We don't need to kill off the likes of Mr and Mrs BigG as Leon was suggesting earlier.

    We also need tighter control of immigration
  • OnboardG1OnboardG1 Posts: 1,589

    The US does seem to have a deeply engrained, more positive culture toward entrepreneurship and I presume therefore financial risk.

    That made sense during the days of frontier expansion, but perhaps less so now.

    Nevertheless, it would good to figure out how much the UK could get some of that. It seems to be a factor independent of the actual regulatory and perhaps even fiscal burden.

    I suppose the flip side is that we have less examples like Theranos or Nikola Motors over here (although we have our own Enrons). It’s not an easy balance between risk aversion and recklessness.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,368
    tlg86 said:

    dixiedean said:

    Bof E also forecasting 13% inflation in Q4.
    A figure which seems to climb with every prediction from anyone.

    That is GRIM.
    On the plus side, it has risen so fast so quickly there is every chance it will fall equally fast.

    Unless of course wage inflation replaces commodity inflation.
    Sure, inflation will almost certainly be lower this time next year, but we'll still be paying huge energy bills.
    The cumulative effect of 13% inflation for year one, 9% for year 2, 5% for year three are nonetheless horrendous.
  • 148grss148grss Posts: 4,155

    Take pity on today’s 30 somethings who seem barely to have known an economy not in crisis.

    I mean, pity me all you want, but I think we'd have preferred people allowing for real political solutions, like mild social democracy, over pity.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 8,258
    TOPPING said:

    Mortimer said:

    TOPPING said:

    Taz said:

    I fear for those businesses and staff predominantly in the hospitality industry. It will be a bloodbath for them, especially in the less busy months post Xmas. Discretionary spend is going to fall off a cliff and the new PM, Liz Truss, is going to have to pivot very quickly from her current promises onto it to get something done. Average bills of £3,500 a year are going to see some people with bills far higher than that.

    There is still a wall of cash sloshing around from lockdown, where savings rates went through the roof, and the MPC was necessarily forced down. That is still playing out and will do for the next few months at least.

    Try getting a builder/plumber/sparks to come to your house next week. Ain't gonna happen.
    Add to this that Cable means our goods look cheap to the Americans. We've just had one of our best ever months for international sales....
    Long may it last. I still have my Brexit (= dollar weighted) position on. Has not quite let me down albeit with a few wobbles.

    A friend just showed me the long term chart of the S&P v FTSE and the difference in perf (S&P = 5x FTSE) is extraordinary.
    Be careful - part of that is tech weighting.

    I suspect I could cut the data in a defensible way that looks much better for the FTSE
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,838
    edited August 2022

    Alistair said:

    MaxPB said:

    dixiedean said:

    RPI predicted to peak at 18%!!

    The government is fucked. If that happens then around £600bn of our debt will attract RPI plus the coupon, so an average of ~19%, plus the interest on all of the other £1.2tn non index linked bonds.

    We're looking at a debt servicing cost of £130-150bn per year. Absolutely insane.
    And this is why inflation linked bonds should always form part og a personal investment portfolio
    By luck, I do have a reasonable sum in index-linked bonds, but I doubt that you can buy them at the moment.
    Not the National Savings ones; I was just checking this morning. Best that can be had is that existing ones can be carried over on a similar basis when they mature (inflation plus token interest element).
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,175
    OnboardG1 said:

    tlg86 said:

    OnboardG1 said:

    ohnotnow said:

    Just reading some voxpop-esque stuff on the BBC. My heart is bleeding...

    Louise and her husband have been saving to move home in Brighton since 2020, but they're having a major rethink.

    "We've had to substantially reconsider the amount of money we can borrow, says Louise.

    They'd been hoping to move to a bigger house so they could start a family.

    But now they can only afford smaller houses, Louise says it's "making us wonder whether we should bother moving at all".

    "Our options are either to stay put where we are or move to something about £200,000 cheaper than we had hoped."
    TBF it represents danger for the governing party when their natural voters are getting stung by their economic strategy. But yeah, weird pick.
    Lol, people with that attitude generally vote Labour.
    I’ll go past the partisan jab to say: home ownership has generally been a lead in to voting Tory. If they don’t vote Tory now they might once they have kids. If they can’t start a family on their schedule because of economics they’ll boot the incumbent government at the ballot box when they might have been swayed to the Tories in the Cameron years.
    The key to the "people like them" bit was that they live in Brighton.

    Tories tend to find somewhere that they can afford and make the most of things.
  • SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,773

    Take pity on today’s 30 somethings who seem barely to have known an economy not in crisis.

    One issue, is that we do seem to have the view nowadays that the government should be able to 'fix' any problem out there.

    And they don;'t have the power to solve this one .
  • FlatlanderFlatlander Posts: 4,668
    edited August 2022
    MaxPB said:

    ohnotnow said:

    Just reading some voxpop-esque stuff on the BBC. My heart is bleeding...

    Louise and her husband have been saving to move home in Brighton since 2020, but they're having a major rethink.

    "We've had to substantially reconsider the amount of money we can borrow, says Louise.

    They'd been hoping to move to a bigger house so they could start a family.

    But now they can only afford smaller houses, Louise says it's "making us wonder whether we should bother moving at all".

    "Our options are either to stay put where we are or move to something about £200,000 cheaper than we had hoped."
    Maybe, but look at the underlying message there - couple who want to start a family are now unlikely to do so because they can't afford to move into their desired house.

    @Leon is right, the nation needs to have a rethink on how we approach old age care provision. The current mandate the NHS has to extend life at any cost is going to bankrupt the nation. Providing expensive care for a 90 year old so they can live for 6 more months results in higher taxes and lower income for working age people and less availability of housing which pushes up housing costs.

    You may dismiss these people but we need families and we need policies to help couples become families. Not just laugh at their misfortune.
    On an individual level I am helping to prop up an 88 year old, a 92 year old and a 89 year old with dementia.

    Whilst I wouldn't ever want to farm them out I do wonder if they are having much fun and whether all the medical interventions are productive.

    The 92 year old is fine and active, but the 88 year old is depressed and the 89 year old has bouts of saying 'I want to be dead' over and over, but is not compus mentis enough to be allowed to say so officially.

    Meanwhile the generation below has to pay for it all, mostly through lost opportunities in this case but also in funding the NHS.

    It really is the mother of all moral dilemmas.
  • Take pity on today’s 30 somethings who seem barely to have known an economy not in crisis.

    To think when I took out a mortgage 22 years ago interest rates were 6% and I was scarred by double digit interest rates from my youth.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670

    HYUFD said:

    Interest rates rise by 0.5%, biggest rise for 27 years.

    Will be interesting to see if it has any impact on house prices

    It will, but not just yet.

    I am looking to sell a property in Fratton, Portsmouth and the Estate Agent suggested that he is expecting things to get a little bit naughty in the early part of next year. The value of the property has increased from £220k in 2019 to a shade under £300k today. That is unsustainable.
    I sold my previois home for 300k at thr start of 2019. It sold for 400k at the start of this year.

    Absolutely bonkers.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,921
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,175
    MaxPB said:

    ohnotnow said:

    Just reading some voxpop-esque stuff on the BBC. My heart is bleeding...

    Louise and her husband have been saving to move home in Brighton since 2020, but they're having a major rethink.

    "We've had to substantially reconsider the amount of money we can borrow, says Louise.

    They'd been hoping to move to a bigger house so they could start a family.

    But now they can only afford smaller houses, Louise says it's "making us wonder whether we should bother moving at all".

    "Our options are either to stay put where we are or move to something about £200,000 cheaper than we had hoped."
    Maybe, but look at the underlying message there - couple who want to start a family are now unlikely to do so because they can't afford to move into their desired house.

    @Leon is right, the nation needs to have a rethink on how we approach old age care provision. The current mandate the NHS has to extend life at any cost is going to bankrupt the nation. Providing expensive care for a 90 year old so they can live for 6 more months results in higher taxes and lower income for working age people and less availability of housing which pushes up housing costs.

    You may dismiss these people but we need families and we need policies to help couples become families. Not just laugh at their misfortune.
    Hang on, won't this be good for people on the ladder looking to move up? If house prices fall, the gaps become smaller.

    Obviously not a good time for anyone looking to cash-in their chips.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,811

    The US does seem to have a deeply engrained, more positive culture toward entrepreneurship and I presume therefore financial risk.

    That made sense during the days of frontier expansion, but perhaps less so now.

    Nevertheless, it would good to figure out how much the UK could get some of that. It seems to be a factor independent of the actual regulatory and perhaps even fiscal burden.

    It changed here post 2008 IMO, we turned into a much more meek society hell bent on protecting what little we have rather than taking risks to expand.

    The whole government and media rhetoric around casino banking and such didn't help. I also think not letting RBS and HBOS go bankrupt didn't help. RBS is still stinking up the equity markets with a lower book value market cap, Lloyds is slightly better.

    That renewal of companies post 2008 didn't happen, we are still left with a load of zombie companies carrying debt that they can just about service but unable to invest so they just stay where they are. Hopefully rising rates will finally put them out of their misery and newer and better companies will take their place.

    Finally, the UK has a significant number of defined benefit pensioners either retired or about to retire. This alone limits the amount of risk companies can take as a significant proportion of their cost base is now essentially paid to employees who have zero productivity.

    One, very controversial, thing the government could do is pass primary legislation to restate all defined benefit schemes as defined contribution with a formula to convert them, state and private.
  • DriverDriver Posts: 4,963
    IshmaelZ said:

    Driver said:

    Dynamo said:

    Sean_F said:


    Putin regards all of Ukraine and Belarus and the Baltic States as lost lands.

    Plainly, it would be excellent news if Ukraine recaptured Crimea and Donbass, but that's probably too much to hope for.

    So you are pro-revanchist. (That doesn't in itself mean you're wrong, but we might as well use words right.)

    Anyway the neo-Nazis of the Ukrainian army
    Some of us had you pegged as a Russian trollbot from your earliest posts, but you've stopped even pretending, which is a shame.
    Irrespective of the merits of your general position, the dishonesty of that purported quotation makes you look a complete arse.
    It was merely the point at which anyone who hadn't already been convinced should have needed to stop reading.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,822

    Alistair said:

    MaxPB said:

    dixiedean said:

    RPI predicted to peak at 18%!!

    The government is fucked. If that happens then around £600bn of our debt will attract RPI plus the coupon, so an average of ~19%, plus the interest on all of the other £1.2tn non index linked bonds.

    We're looking at a debt servicing cost of £130-150bn per year. Absolutely insane.
    And this is why inflation linked bonds should always form part og a personal investment portfolio
    By luck, I do have a reasonable sum in index-linked bonds, but I doubt that you can buy them at the moment.
    Available, just none of those available are as good the NS&I Index linked certificates that are now only available for renewals.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,838
    edited August 2022

    Take pity on today’s 30 somethings who seem barely to have known an economy not in crisis.

    To think when I took out a mortgage 22 years ago interest rates were 6% and I was scarred by double digit interest rates from my youth.
    ...
  • OnboardG1OnboardG1 Posts: 1,589
    tlg86 said:

    OnboardG1 said:

    tlg86 said:

    OnboardG1 said:

    ohnotnow said:

    Just reading some voxpop-esque stuff on the BBC. My heart is bleeding...

    Louise and her husband have been saving to move home in Brighton since 2020, but they're having a major rethink.

    "We've had to substantially reconsider the amount of money we can borrow, says Louise.

    They'd been hoping to move to a bigger house so they could start a family.

    But now they can only afford smaller houses, Louise says it's "making us wonder whether we should bother moving at all".

    "Our options are either to stay put where we are or move to something about £200,000 cheaper than we had hoped."
    TBF it represents danger for the governing party when their natural voters are getting stung by their economic strategy. But yeah, weird pick.
    Lol, people with that attitude generally vote Labour.
    I’ll go past the partisan jab to say: home ownership has generally been a lead in to voting Tory. If they don’t vote Tory now they might once they have kids. If they can’t start a family on their schedule because of economics they’ll boot the incumbent government at the ballot box when they might have been swayed to the Tories in the Cameron years.
    The key to the "people like them" bit was that they live in Brighton.

    Tories tend to find somewhere that they can afford and make the most of things.
    They’re more likely to be Greens in Brighton. When did you last look at the election results?

    As to the latter part… ok sure whatever. I’m sure there are no prospective Tories hoping for a move to a larger property who are now cross that they might struggle to do so.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    Leon said:

    Can I second those PB-ers who are asking: where the heck do I put cash to hedge against inflation? Somewhere reasonably liquid but safe from a crash?

    No, because that is the cakeist holy grail. Put half in shares, half in cash or bonds, and fuhgeddaboutit for 10 years. as long as there is a market for high end lapidary sex toys that's your time horizon is it not?

    Also see https://monevator.com/

    key takeaway of which is just buy tracker funds, you don't want to be paying 1.5% a year of your stash to a chinless wealth manager
  • Leon said:

    OnboardG1 said:

    Leon said:

    148grss said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    So glad we fixed for 5 years when we got our house last year. 13% inflation is mad, interest rates will have to rise quite substantially, much more than the Bank is currently letting on. Whoever wins in 2024 is fucked.

    As fucked as whoever wins in September? By 2024, there might be enough visible failure for a grownup conversation about what we do about this, rather than all the boosterism nonsense.

    Meanwhile, Bozza looks like he may have done the political equivalent of shimmying down the drainpipe just before the husband enters the room. A fair chunk of the incoming pain is his responsibility, but you can be sure that his successor will be the one to cop the blame,
    Even more so, IMO. They're going to have to cut spending more than we've ever seen and to areas where cuts have previously been unthinkable like the NHS and pensions.
    In retrospect, we should have let Covid rip. Kill a million old people 🤷‍♂️🤷‍♂️ and the obese 🧐

    Before I am accused of callousness, my parents would have gone in the cull. So be it
    It's hard to say how much that strategy would have helped. At least some lost production is due to people actually being ill with Covid rather than being due to the measures taken to mitigate the spread of Covid.
    If everyone over 80 had died, that would have

    1 freed up a ton of property
    2 hugely reduced the burden of care on the state
    3 created a cascade of wealth thru the economy
    4 created business BY ITSELF (funeral homes etc)
    5 reduced the average age/obesity of the populace

    I might sound like I’m joking; I’m not
    Come to think of it, why bother with healthcare provision at all? It costs a bloody fortune, and it's most only old people that die. Healthcare is really just delaying the inevitable.
    Be serious. At some point we WILL have to ask ourselves: how much are we prepared to spend keeping very old people alive?

    Is it right that we sacrifice the options of the young to spend £££££ on anyone over 80? I don’t think it is. All societies are facing this dilemma
    I mean, you could do both - there is immense wealth in the hands of a few that could easily be taxed at a reasonable rate to pay for both options for the young and the continued existence of anyone over 80.

    From a purely material point of view, as well, older people still do lots of labour, just off the books labour - childcare and such - that allows the economy to function (especially for poorer younger people who can't afford childcare, but have parents / grandparents). The accumulation of wealth by the elderly is mostly due to house prices and pensions being linked to stocks - and that is down to a refusal to build and hold on to council houses, and an attempt to make grand left wing policy harder by making older people bare the brunt of it should it happen. My grandparents are not rich, and bought their house for £9k back in the 60s / 70s; it is now easily half a million just because it's within the M25. They see their monthly shopping go up and their bills increase and can, just about, cover that. They're lucky in that even in their late 80s / early 90s they are mobile within the home and seem to be clear in mind, but even the grandparents I have lost (to strokes and dementia) had to supplement their care by paying some towards it anyway.

    I know many people my age (early 90s kids) moan about policy favouring the old, but don't mistake that for distaste or dislike of the elderly.
    Don’t be ridiculous. People over 80 don’t “do lots of labour”. They aren’t running around looking after grandkids like people in their 60s

    They are generally a burden, of one sort or another. Like owning a boat. Nice to have, in some ways, and a store of cash at best, but generally a drain on resources and something you have to sacrifice in hard times. When poverty looms, you sell the yacht
    I’m about 50% sure you’re doing this for the reactions but in case you aren’t: this is inhumane, stupid and borderline evil.
    I’m evil for confronting demographic reality, and trying to make the lives of the young better?

    Get a grip. This is pathetic. This is why we can’t have this debate because people like you start weeping

    I have kids in their teens and I have parents in their 80s. If the latter have to die to help the former so be it. We are spending far too much time and money and political energy on the needs of the very old
    Perhaps it's time for these:



  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,717
    IshmaelZ said:

    MaxPB said:

    ohnotnow said:

    Just reading some voxpop-esque stuff on the BBC. My heart is bleeding...

    Louise and her husband have been saving to move home in Brighton since 2020, but they're having a major rethink.

    "We've had to substantially reconsider the amount of money we can borrow, says Louise.

    They'd been hoping to move to a bigger house so they could start a family.

    But now they can only afford smaller houses, Louise says it's "making us wonder whether we should bother moving at all".

    "Our options are either to stay put where we are or move to something about £200,000 cheaper than we had hoped."
    Maybe, but look at the underlying message there - couple who want to start a family are now unlikely to do so because they can't afford to move into their desired house.

    @Leon is right, the nation needs to have a rethink on how we approach old age care provision. The current mandate the NHS has to extend life at any cost is going to bankrupt the nation. Providing expensive care for a 90 year old so they can live for 6 more months results in higher taxes and lower income for working age people and less availability of housing which pushes up housing costs.

    You may dismiss these people but we need families and we need policies to help couples become families. Not just laugh at their misfortune.
    Your reminder of this piece on what it is like, on average, dying of old age in a US hospital

    https://slatestarcodex.com/2013/07/17/who-by-very-slow-decay/

    Personally I'd be happy to sign up now to an irrevocable, palliatave care only after 80 deal, in the full knowledge that I might feel a bit different about it once the euphoria of my 79th birthday party has worn off.
    The euphoria, such as it was, has just worn off for me so I won't sign up to your whizzo scheme if it's all the same to you.

  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    Alistair said:

    MaxPB said:

    dixiedean said:

    RPI predicted to peak at 18%!!

    The government is fucked. If that happens then around £600bn of our debt will attract RPI plus the coupon, so an average of ~19%, plus the interest on all of the other £1.2tn non index linked bonds.

    We're looking at a debt servicing cost of £130-150bn per year. Absolutely insane.
    And this is why inflation linked bonds should always form part og a personal investment portfolio
    By luck, I do have a reasonable sum in index-linked bonds, but I doubt that you can buy them at the moment.
    Available, just none of those available are as good the NS&I Index linked certificates that are now only available for renewals.
    But all rolling over from RPI + 2% to CPI + .00000000001%. still worth having mind.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,370
    MaxPB said:

    The US does seem to have a deeply engrained, more positive culture toward entrepreneurship and I presume therefore financial risk.

    That made sense during the days of frontier expansion, but perhaps less so now.

    Nevertheless, it would good to figure out how much the UK could get some of that. It seems to be a factor independent of the actual regulatory and perhaps even fiscal burden.

    It changed here post 2008 IMO, we turned into a much more meek society hell bent on protecting what little we have rather than taking risks to expand.

    The whole government and media rhetoric around casino banking and such didn't help. I also think not letting RBS and HBOS go bankrupt didn't help. RBS is still stinking up the equity markets with a lower book value market cap, Lloyds is slightly better.

    That renewal of companies post 2008 didn't happen, we are still left with a load of zombie companies carrying debt that they can just about service but unable to invest so they just stay where they are. Hopefully rising rates will finally put them out of their misery and newer and better companies will take their place.

    Finally, the UK has a significant number of defined benefit pensioners either retired or about to retire. This alone limits the amount of risk companies can take as a significant proportion of their cost base is now essentially paid to employees who have zero productivity.

    One, very controversial, thing the government could do is pass primary legislation to restate all defined benefit schemes as defined contribution with a formula to convert them, state and private.
    I've come up with a number of fixes that people claim are electoral suicide - wealth tax on residential property say - but nothing as electorally toxic as that
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,361
    HYUFD said:

    MaxPB said:

    ohnotnow said:

    Just reading some voxpop-esque stuff on the BBC. My heart is bleeding...

    Louise and her husband have been saving to move home in Brighton since 2020, but they're having a major rethink.

    "We've had to substantially reconsider the amount of money we can borrow, says Louise.

    They'd been hoping to move to a bigger house so they could start a family.

    But now they can only afford smaller houses, Louise says it's "making us wonder whether we should bother moving at all".

    "Our options are either to stay put where we are or move to something about £200,000 cheaper than we had hoped."
    Maybe, but look at the underlying message there - couple who want to start a family are now unlikely to do so because they can't afford to move into their desired house.

    @Leon is right, the nation needs to have a rethink on how we approach old age care provision. The current mandate the NHS has to extend life at any cost is going to bankrupt the nation. Providing expensive care for a 90 year old so they can live for 6 more months results in higher taxes and lower income for working age people and less availability of housing which pushes up housing costs.

    You may dismiss these people but we need families and we need policies to help couples become families. Not just laugh at their misfortune.
    The average age at which most people own a property is 39 not 69.

    We don't need to kill off the likes of Mr and Mrs BigG as Leon was suggesting earlier.

    We also need tighter control of immigration
    39 is a bit late to start a family, and if it's the average then a lot of people still won't open a property even by then.

    It would be a good sign if that age was brought down.
  • glwglw Posts: 9,906
    Leon said:

    If these BoE predictions pan out, and if they are mirrored across the West, then the pressure on Ukraine to sue for a bitter peace will be irresistible

    I see Marine Le Pen is arguing this in France already. She is not entirely stupid: she sees the political opportunity

    And it could get worse. Putin could shut off all gas and oil and see if we blink first. I suspect we would

    And when Ukraine has given up territory what you do propose we do the next time Putin decides to expand his "Russian Empire"?

    People arguing that Ukraine should cede territory are essentially saying "third time lucky" to Ukraine. No previous agreement has been upheld by Russia, why should anyone trust Russia now?

    If we want to end the war the best way is to arm Ukraine so that they can do so on their terms, not give in to Russia.

  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,288
    IshmaelZ said:

    MaxPB said:

    ohnotnow said:

    Just reading some voxpop-esque stuff on the BBC. My heart is bleeding...

    Louise and her husband have been saving to move home in Brighton since 2020, but they're having a major rethink.

    "We've had to substantially reconsider the amount of money we can borrow, says Louise.

    They'd been hoping to move to a bigger house so they could start a family.

    But now they can only afford smaller houses, Louise says it's "making us wonder whether we should bother moving at all".

    "Our options are either to stay put where we are or move to something about £200,000 cheaper than we had hoped."
    Maybe, but look at the underlying message there - couple who want to start a family are now unlikely to do so because they can't afford to move into their desired house.

    @Leon is right, the nation needs to have a rethink on how we approach old age care provision. The current mandate the NHS has to extend life at any cost is going to bankrupt the nation. Providing expensive care for a 90 year old so they can live for 6 more months results in higher taxes and lower income for working age people and less availability of housing which pushes up housing costs.

    You may dismiss these people but we need families and we need policies to help couples become families. Not just laugh at their misfortune.
    Your reminder of this piece on what it is like, on average, dying of old age in a US hospital

    https://slatestarcodex.com/2013/07/17/who-by-very-slow-decay/

    Personally I'd be happy to sign up now to an irrevocable, palliatave care only after 80 deal, in the full knowledge that I might feel a bit different about it once the euphoria of my 79th birthday party has worn off.
    My thoughts exactly. It should be “palliative care only” for anyone over 80

    80, ffs. It’s not 60. It’s 80. You’ve had your three score years and ten PLUS TEN

    Another thing: by the state guaranteeing to take over all health care for everyone even to the age of 120 - we have disincentivised having kids. People used to have kids partly so they’d have someone to look after them when they’re old. Now the state does that, no one has kids, we are all getting older and dying. It is absurd. We’ve got it all wrong
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,822
    Alistair said:

    HYUFD said:

    Interest rates rise by 0.5%, biggest rise for 27 years.

    Will be interesting to see if it has any impact on house prices

    It will, but not just yet.

    I am looking to sell a property in Fratton, Portsmouth and the Estate Agent suggested that he is expecting things to get a little bit naughty in the early part of next year. The value of the property has increased from £220k in 2019 to a shade under £300k today. That is unsustainable.
    I sold my previois home for 300k at thr start of 2019. It sold for 400k at the start of this year.

    Absolutely bonkers.
    Utility of houses has changed significantly with working from home. If it was a reasonable sized home in a nice environment away from commuter-ville then that could be sustainable.

    Small flat whose main benefit is proximity to jobs, prices should be significantly down.
  • 148grss148grss Posts: 4,155

    Take pity on today’s 30 somethings who seem barely to have known an economy not in crisis.

    One issue, is that we do seem to have the view nowadays that the government should be able to 'fix' any problem out there.

    And they don;'t have the power to solve this one .
    Government doesn't have the power to "solve" this - but it does have the power to alleviate the negative impact on especially the poorest individuals.

    And the reason that people believe governments should be able to fix many problems is that it demonstrably can - we had a post war period where it was shown that social programmes and public spending alongside private business and more equitable wealth redistribution could drastically change the standards of living. The NHS, the New Deal, public housing and public education. Hell, there was even a point where there was enough international agreement that destroying the planet is a bad idea to fix the hole in the Ozone.
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,385
    HYUFD said:

    MaxPB said:

    ohnotnow said:

    Just reading some voxpop-esque stuff on the BBC. My heart is bleeding...

    Louise and her husband have been saving to move home in Brighton since 2020, but they're having a major rethink.

    "We've had to substantially reconsider the amount of money we can borrow, says Louise.

    They'd been hoping to move to a bigger house so they could start a family.

    But now they can only afford smaller houses, Louise says it's "making us wonder whether we should bother moving at all".

    "Our options are either to stay put where we are or move to something about £200,000 cheaper than we had hoped."
    Maybe, but look at the underlying message there - couple who want to start a family are now unlikely to do so because they can't afford to move into their desired house.

    @Leon is right, the nation needs to have a rethink on how we approach old age care provision. The current mandate the NHS has to extend life at any cost is going to bankrupt the nation. Providing expensive care for a 90 year old so they can live for 6 more months results in higher taxes and lower income for working age people and less availability of housing which pushes up housing costs.

    You may dismiss these people but we need families and we need policies to help couples become families. Not just laugh at their misfortune.
    The average age at which most people own a property is 39 not 69.

    We don't need to kill off the likes of Mr and Mrs BigG as Leon was suggesting earlier.

    We also need tighter control of immigration
    We've "regained control", what are your Party doing about it aside from talking tough and using Rwanda while allowing hundreds of thousands into the country.

    Personally I have no problem with inward migration. I think we need to concentrate on the infrastructure and homes to meet the demands of our new citizens.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,288
    glw said:

    Leon said:

    If these BoE predictions pan out, and if they are mirrored across the West, then the pressure on Ukraine to sue for a bitter peace will be irresistible

    I see Marine Le Pen is arguing this in France already. She is not entirely stupid: she sees the political opportunity

    And it could get worse. Putin could shut off all gas and oil and see if we blink first. I suspect we would

    And when Ukraine has given up territory what you do propose we do the next time Putin decides to expand his "Russian Empire"?

    People arguing that Ukraine should cede territory are essentially saying "third time lucky" to Ukraine. No previous agreement has been upheld by Russia, why should anyone trust Russia now?

    If we want to end the war the best way is to arm Ukraine so that they can do so on their terms, not give in to Russia.

    I AM NOT SAYING ANY OF THAT

    Check my comments

    I am merely observing that with the awful economic prospectus the tacit pressure from the west, on Ukraine, to make a bad peace might be irresistible
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,811
    eek said:

    MaxPB said:

    The US does seem to have a deeply engrained, more positive culture toward entrepreneurship and I presume therefore financial risk.

    That made sense during the days of frontier expansion, but perhaps less so now.

    Nevertheless, it would good to figure out how much the UK could get some of that. It seems to be a factor independent of the actual regulatory and perhaps even fiscal burden.

    It changed here post 2008 IMO, we turned into a much more meek society hell bent on protecting what little we have rather than taking risks to expand.

    The whole government and media rhetoric around casino banking and such didn't help. I also think not letting RBS and HBOS go bankrupt didn't help. RBS is still stinking up the equity markets with a lower book value market cap, Lloyds is slightly better.

    That renewal of companies post 2008 didn't happen, we are still left with a load of zombie companies carrying debt that they can just about service but unable to invest so they just stay where they are. Hopefully rising rates will finally put them out of their misery and newer and better companies will take their place.

    Finally, the UK has a significant number of defined benefit pensioners either retired or about to retire. This alone limits the amount of risk companies can take as a significant proportion of their cost base is now essentially paid to employees who have zero productivity.

    One, very controversial, thing the government could do is pass primary legislation to restate all defined benefit schemes as defined contribution with a formula to convert them, state and private.
    I've come up with a number of fixes that people claim are electoral suicide - wealth tax on residential property say - but nothing as electorally toxic as that
    Oh yeah it's absolute electoral poison but these are the kinds of radical things that need to change in the UK or we're in for 40-50 years of managed decline while the 60+ year olds die off.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    Driver said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Driver said:

    Dynamo said:

    Sean_F said:


    Putin regards all of Ukraine and Belarus and the Baltic States as lost lands.

    Plainly, it would be excellent news if Ukraine recaptured Crimea and Donbass, but that's probably too much to hope for.

    So you are pro-revanchist. (That doesn't in itself mean you're wrong, but we might as well use words right.)

    Anyway the neo-Nazis of the Ukrainian army
    Some of us had you pegged as a Russian trollbot from your earliest posts, but you've stopped even pretending, which is a shame.
    Irrespective of the merits of your general position, the dishonesty of that purported quotation makes you look a complete arse.
    It was merely the point at which anyone who hadn't already been convinced should have needed to stop reading.
    No, it was a truly shitty little subterfuge.

    for new readers, he truncated "Anyway the neo-Nazis of the Ukrainian army's Azov Regiment..." to "Anyway the neo-Nazis of the Ukrainian army..."
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,288
    IshmaelZ said:

    Leon said:

    Can I second those PB-ers who are asking: where the heck do I put cash to hedge against inflation? Somewhere reasonably liquid but safe from a crash?

    No, because that is the cakeist holy grail. Put half in shares, half in cash or bonds, and fuhgeddaboutit for 10 years. as long as there is a market for high end lapidary sex toys that's your time horizon is it not?

    Also see https://monevator.com/

    key takeaway of which is just buy tracker funds, you don't want to be paying 1.5% a year of your stash to a chinless wealth manager
    Thanks. That sounds quite wise
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,358
    Nigelb said:

    .

    Wow. Simon Jenkins contrasts the west's "parody of imperial outreach" with Russia and China who "have merely desired to repossess ancestral neighbours".

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/aug/03/taiwan-nancy-pelosi-visit-ukraine-us

    If Jenkins were to be taken seriously, he'd be a dangerous fool.
    As it is, he's a fairly harmless eccentric who occasionally says interesting things.
    Jenkins is the kind of man who is quite happy to "cement evil", as Joachim Gauke put it.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,433

    The US does seem to have a deeply engrained, more positive culture toward entrepreneurship and I presume therefore financial risk.

    That made sense during the days of frontier expansion, but perhaps less so now.

    Nevertheless, it would good to figure out how much the UK could get some of that. It seems to be a factor independent of the actual regulatory and perhaps even fiscal burden.

    Governments have a role to play, and successive UK Governments have failed to support British businesses in recent times, and for most of the last century, if they ever did. And Brexit hasn't really changed that. I don't really blame Ministers - I think it comes from the Civil service. Could be wrong.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,358
    glw said:

    Leon said:

    If these BoE predictions pan out, and if they are mirrored across the West, then the pressure on Ukraine to sue for a bitter peace will be irresistible

    I see Marine Le Pen is arguing this in France already. She is not entirely stupid: she sees the political opportunity

    And it could get worse. Putin could shut off all gas and oil and see if we blink first. I suspect we would

    And when Ukraine has given up territory what you do propose we do the next time Putin decides to expand his "Russian Empire"?

    People arguing that Ukraine should cede territory are essentially saying "third time lucky" to Ukraine. No previous agreement has been upheld by Russia, why should anyone trust Russia now?

    If we want to end the war the best way is to arm Ukraine so that they can do so on their terms, not give in to Russia.

    Once Kherson goes, I suspect we'll see the Russian position collapse like a pack of cards.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    Leon said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    MaxPB said:

    ohnotnow said:

    Just reading some voxpop-esque stuff on the BBC. My heart is bleeding...

    Louise and her husband have been saving to move home in Brighton since 2020, but they're having a major rethink.

    "We've had to substantially reconsider the amount of money we can borrow, says Louise.

    They'd been hoping to move to a bigger house so they could start a family.

    But now they can only afford smaller houses, Louise says it's "making us wonder whether we should bother moving at all".

    "Our options are either to stay put where we are or move to something about £200,000 cheaper than we had hoped."
    Maybe, but look at the underlying message there - couple who want to start a family are now unlikely to do so because they can't afford to move into their desired house.

    @Leon is right, the nation needs to have a rethink on how we approach old age care provision. The current mandate the NHS has to extend life at any cost is going to bankrupt the nation. Providing expensive care for a 90 year old so they can live for 6 more months results in higher taxes and lower income for working age people and less availability of housing which pushes up housing costs.

    You may dismiss these people but we need families and we need policies to help couples become families. Not just laugh at their misfortune.
    Your reminder of this piece on what it is like, on average, dying of old age in a US hospital

    https://slatestarcodex.com/2013/07/17/who-by-very-slow-decay/

    Personally I'd be happy to sign up now to an irrevocable, palliatave care only after 80 deal, in the full knowledge that I might feel a bit different about it once the euphoria of my 79th birthday party has worn off.
    My thoughts exactly. It should be “palliative care only” for anyone over 80

    80, ffs. It’s not 60. It’s 80. You’ve had your three score years and ten PLUS TEN

    Another thing: by the state guaranteeing to take over all health care for everyone even to the age of 120 - we have disincentivised having kids. People used to have kids partly so they’d have someone to look after them when they’re old. Now the state does that, no one has kids, we are all getting older and dying. It is absurd. We’ve got it all wrong
    Famously the introduction of the NHS and the cradle to grave welfare state saw an immediate slump in UK births.
  • Take pity on today’s 30 somethings who seem barely to have known an economy not in crisis.

    One issue, is that we do seem to have the view nowadays that the government should be able to 'fix' any problem out there.

    And they don;'t have the power to solve this one .
    I had my doubts about bailing out the banks (I understood why it happened) but ever since then governments are faced with angry electorates saying 'well you bailed out the banks, you should intervene here.'
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,368
    HYUFD said:

    MaxPB said:

    ohnotnow said:

    Just reading some voxpop-esque stuff on the BBC. My heart is bleeding...

    Louise and her husband have been saving to move home in Brighton since 2020, but they're having a major rethink.

    "We've had to substantially reconsider the amount of money we can borrow, says Louise.

    They'd been hoping to move to a bigger house so they could start a family.

    But now they can only afford smaller houses, Louise says it's "making us wonder whether we should bother moving at all".

    "Our options are either to stay put where we are or move to something about £200,000 cheaper than we had hoped."
    Maybe, but look at the underlying message there - couple who want to start a family are now unlikely to do so because they can't afford to move into their desired house.

    @Leon is right, the nation needs to have a rethink on how we approach old age care provision. The current mandate the NHS has to extend life at any cost is going to bankrupt the nation. Providing expensive care for a 90 year old so they can live for 6 more months results in higher taxes and lower income for working age people and less availability of housing which pushes up housing costs.

    You may dismiss these people but we need families and we need policies to help couples become families. Not just laugh at their misfortune.
    The average age at which most people own a property is 39 not 69.

    We don't need to kill off the likes of Mr and Mrs BigG as Leon was suggesting earlier.

    We also need tighter control of immigration
    Pretty much everyone I grew up with was on the property ladder by thirty. Some of us were onto rung two or three of the ladder by that age. Mortgage rates were horrendous, but the initial purchase prices of properties were not so daunting.

    We cut our cloth to suit. No one had to worry about lease deals on new Range Rovers. Repaying a modest bank loan for a used Rover 216 or cash up front on an old Austin Metro eased that pain.Takeaways and eating out was a rare treat and not a daily occurrence. A round for six was around a fiver, in the mid/late 1980s. We never had it so good!

    Mind you, I'm not sure where tighter control of immigration comes into the equation.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,358
    edited August 2022
    Dynamo said:

    Sean_F said:


    Putin regards all of Ukraine and Belarus and the Baltic States as lost lands.

    Plainly, it would be excellent news if Ukraine recaptured Crimea and Donbass, but that's probably too much to hope for.

    So you are pro-revanchist. (That doesn't in itself mean you're wrong, but we might as well use words right.)

    Anyway the neo-Nazis of the Ukrainian army's Azov Regiment already control a portion of the Donbas, so if the position is not yet "excellent" does it count as "quite good" maybe? Would you say that to people who live there? If you think it's "plain" that it would be supertastic for the Ukrainian armed forces to reconquer the Crimea and re-establish the position created by Khrushchev in the 1950s, then there's no need to argue for the proposition against dimwits like me. The same may be true of the notion that a demonic Putin wants to fly the Russian flag over Belarus.

    Perhaps Khrushchev was looking a long way into the future (all the way to BЯexit and Scottish Iиdependeиce?*) when he said that if he were British he would vote Tory.

    * British politicians known for cooperating up to their eyeballs with Russia Today include Nigel Farage and Alec Salmond, as well as George Galloway. I can't think of any who were pro-Remain and pro-Union. Funny that.
    What I want to see happen when Ukraine takes back its territories is for people like you to get a bullet through the head.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670

    Alistair said:

    HYUFD said:

    Interest rates rise by 0.5%, biggest rise for 27 years.

    Will be interesting to see if it has any impact on house prices

    It will, but not just yet.

    I am looking to sell a property in Fratton, Portsmouth and the Estate Agent suggested that he is expecting things to get a little bit naughty in the early part of next year. The value of the property has increased from £220k in 2019 to a shade under £300k today. That is unsustainable.
    I sold my previois home for 300k at thr start of 2019. It sold for 400k at the start of this year.

    Absolutely bonkers.
    Utility of houses has changed significantly with working from home. If it was a reasonable sized home in a nice environment away from commuter-ville then that could be sustainable.

    Small flat whose main benefit is proximity to jobs, prices should be significantly down.
    Small two bedroom double upper with a tiny garden who's main feature is proximity to centre of the city
  • Taz said:

    HYUFD said:

    MaxPB said:

    ohnotnow said:

    Just reading some voxpop-esque stuff on the BBC. My heart is bleeding...

    Louise and her husband have been saving to move home in Brighton since 2020, but they're having a major rethink.

    "We've had to substantially reconsider the amount of money we can borrow, says Louise.

    They'd been hoping to move to a bigger house so they could start a family.

    But now they can only afford smaller houses, Louise says it's "making us wonder whether we should bother moving at all".

    "Our options are either to stay put where we are or move to something about £200,000 cheaper than we had hoped."
    Maybe, but look at the underlying message there - couple who want to start a family are now unlikely to do so because they can't afford to move into their desired house.

    @Leon is right, the nation needs to have a rethink on how we approach old age care provision. The current mandate the NHS has to extend life at any cost is going to bankrupt the nation. Providing expensive care for a 90 year old so they can live for 6 more months results in higher taxes and lower income for working age people and less availability of housing which pushes up housing costs.

    You may dismiss these people but we need families and we need policies to help couples become families. Not just laugh at their misfortune.
    The average age at which most people own a property is 39 not 69.

    We don't need to kill off the likes of Mr and Mrs BigG as Leon was suggesting earlier.

    We also need tighter control of immigration
    We've "regained control", what are your Party doing about it aside from talking tough and using Rwanda while allowing hundreds of thousands into the country.

    Personally I have no problem with inward migration. I think we need to concentrate on the infrastructure and homes to meet the demands of our new citizens.
    And that's increasingly the mood of the nation. Here's an interesting graph;



    https://twitter.com/BNHWalker/status/1555118652768354306

    The really interesting thing to me is that the downtrend in support for "cut immigration a lot" started in 2013ish, and there's not much of a break of trend since- including in 2016.
  • glwglw Posts: 9,906
    Leon said:

    glw said:

    Leon said:

    If these BoE predictions pan out, and if they are mirrored across the West, then the pressure on Ukraine to sue for a bitter peace will be irresistible

    I see Marine Le Pen is arguing this in France already. She is not entirely stupid: she sees the political opportunity

    And it could get worse. Putin could shut off all gas and oil and see if we blink first. I suspect we would

    And when Ukraine has given up territory what you do propose we do the next time Putin decides to expand his "Russian Empire"?

    People arguing that Ukraine should cede territory are essentially saying "third time lucky" to Ukraine. No previous agreement has been upheld by Russia, why should anyone trust Russia now?

    If we want to end the war the best way is to arm Ukraine so that they can do so on their terms, not give in to Russia.

    I AM NOT SAYING ANY OF THAT

    Check my comments

    I am merely observing that with the awful economic prospectus the tacit pressure from the west, on Ukraine, to make a bad peace might be irresistible
    It won't be a bad peace, it will merely be a pause until Putin goes for the rest of Ukraine, or the territory of some other country. Putin must be defeated.
  • Alistair said:

    HYUFD said:

    Interest rates rise by 0.5%, biggest rise for 27 years.

    Will be interesting to see if it has any impact on house prices

    It will, but not just yet.

    I am looking to sell a property in Fratton, Portsmouth and the Estate Agent suggested that he is expecting things to get a little bit naughty in the early part of next year. The value of the property has increased from £220k in 2019 to a shade under £300k today. That is unsustainable.
    I sold my previois home for 300k at thr start of 2019. It sold for 400k at the start of this year.

    Absolutely bonkers.
    Utility of houses has changed significantly with working from home. If it was a reasonable sized home in a nice environment away from commuter-ville then that could be sustainable.

    Small flat whose main benefit is proximity to jobs, prices should be significantly down.
    Except that with the price of fuel rocketing, winter back at the office might offer substantial cost savings as the firm pays for the central heating.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,433

    Take pity on today’s 30 somethings who seem barely to have known an economy not in crisis.

    One issue, is that we do seem to have the view nowadays that the government should be able to 'fix' any problem out there.

    And they don;'t have the power to solve this one .
    It will be solved by people creating value. The Government plays an important role in setting the tone, and then getting out of the way, and trying not to fuck it up.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,811

    Take pity on today’s 30 somethings who seem barely to have known an economy not in crisis.

    One issue, is that we do seem to have the view nowadays that the government should be able to 'fix' any problem out there.

    And they don;'t have the power to solve this one .
    I had my doubts about bailing out the banks (I understood why it happened) but ever since then governments are faced with angry electorates saying 'well you bailed out the banks, you should intervene here.'
    The government should have stood behind depositors at 100% and then let RBS and HBOS go bankrupt.
  • Sean_F said:

    Dynamo said:

    Sean_F said:


    Putin regards all of Ukraine and Belarus and the Baltic States as lost lands.

    Plainly, it would be excellent news if Ukraine recaptured Crimea and Donbass, but that's probably too much to hope for.

    So you are pro-revanchist. (That doesn't in itself mean you're wrong, but we might as well use words right.)

    Anyway the neo-Nazis of the Ukrainian army's Azov Regiment already control a portion of the Donbas, so if the position is not yet "excellent" does it count as "quite good" maybe? Would you say that to people who live there? If you think it's "plain" that it would be supertastic for the Ukrainian armed forces to reconquer the Crimea and re-establish the position created by Khrushchev in the 1950s, then there's no need to argue for the proposition against dimwits like me. The same may be true of the notion that a demonic Putin wants to fly the Russian flag over Belarus.

    Perhaps Khrushchev was looking a long way into the future (all the way to BЯexit and Scottish Iиdependeиce?*) when he said that if he were British he would vote Tory.

    * British politicians known for cooperating up to their eyeballs with Russia Today include Nigel Farage and Alec Salmond, as well as George Galloway. I can't think of any who were pro-Remain and pro-Union. Funny that.
    What I want to see happen when Ukraine takes back its territories is for people like you to get a bullet through the head.
    Could be tricky to arrange if he's working in London for Amnesty
  • DriverDriver Posts: 4,963
    IshmaelZ said:

    Driver said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Driver said:

    Dynamo said:

    Sean_F said:


    Putin regards all of Ukraine and Belarus and the Baltic States as lost lands.

    Plainly, it would be excellent news if Ukraine recaptured Crimea and Donbass, but that's probably too much to hope for.

    So you are pro-revanchist. (That doesn't in itself mean you're wrong, but we might as well use words right.)

    Anyway the neo-Nazis of the Ukrainian army
    Some of us had you pegged as a Russian trollbot from your earliest posts, but you've stopped even pretending, which is a shame.
    Irrespective of the merits of your general position, the dishonesty of that purported quotation makes you look a complete arse.
    It was merely the point at which anyone who hadn't already been convinced should have needed to stop reading.
    No, it was a truly shitty little subterfuge.

    for new readers, he truncated "Anyway the neo-Nazis of the Ukrainian army's Azov Regiment..." to "Anyway the neo-Nazis of the Ukrainian army..."
    The part is part of the whole...
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,433

    Sean_F said:

    Dynamo said:

    Sean_F said:


    Putin regards all of Ukraine and Belarus and the Baltic States as lost lands.

    Plainly, it would be excellent news if Ukraine recaptured Crimea and Donbass, but that's probably too much to hope for.

    So you are pro-revanchist. (That doesn't in itself mean you're wrong, but we might as well use words right.)

    Anyway the neo-Nazis of the Ukrainian army's Azov Regiment already control a portion of the Donbas, so if the position is not yet "excellent" does it count as "quite good" maybe? Would you say that to people who live there? If you think it's "plain" that it would be supertastic for the Ukrainian armed forces to reconquer the Crimea and re-establish the position created by Khrushchev in the 1950s, then there's no need to argue for the proposition against dimwits like me. The same may be true of the notion that a demonic Putin wants to fly the Russian flag over Belarus.

    Perhaps Khrushchev was looking a long way into the future (all the way to BЯexit and Scottish Iиdependeиce?*) when he said that if he were British he would vote Tory.

    * British politicians known for cooperating up to their eyeballs with Russia Today include Nigel Farage and Alec Salmond, as well as George Galloway. I can't think of any who were pro-Remain and pro-Union. Funny that.
    What I want to see happen when Ukraine takes back its territories is for people like you to get a bullet through the head.
    Could be tricky to arrange if he's working in London for Amnesty
    It's also extremely unpleasant.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,402
    ...

    MaxPB said:

    ohnotnow said:

    Just reading some voxpop-esque stuff on the BBC. My heart is bleeding...

    Louise and her husband have been saving to move home in Brighton since 2020, but they're having a major rethink.

    "We've had to substantially reconsider the amount of money we can borrow, says Louise.

    They'd been hoping to move to a bigger house so they could start a family.

    But now they can only afford smaller houses, Louise says it's "making us wonder whether we should bother moving at all".

    "Our options are either to stay put where we are or move to something about £200,000 cheaper than we had hoped."
    Maybe, but look at the underlying message there - couple who want to start a family are now unlikely to do so because they can't afford to move into their desired house.

    @Leon is right, the nation needs to have a rethink on how we approach old age care provision. The current mandate the NHS has to extend life at any cost is going to bankrupt the nation. Providing expensive care for a 90 year old so they can live for 6 more months results in higher taxes and lower income for working age people and less availability of housing which pushes up housing costs.

    You may dismiss these people but we need families and we need policies to help couples become families. Not just laugh at their misfortune.
    On an individual level I am helping to prop up an 88 year old, a 92 year old and a 89 year old with dementia.

    Whilst I wouldn't ever want to farm them out I do wonder if they are having much fun and whether all the medical interventions are productive.

    The 92 year old is fine and active, but the 88 year old is depressed and the 89 year old has bouts of saying 'I want to be dead' over and over, but is not compus mentis enough to be allowed to say so officially.

    Meanwhile the generation below has to pay for it all, mostly through lost opportunities in this case but also in funding the NHS.

    It really is the mother of all moral dilemmas.
    Longer term we are going to have to look at compulsory living wills, say at age 60, to define what we want out of our old age. And if we choose to continue existing, no matter what the quality of life, then we are going to have to pay for it.
    I also think we need to rethink housing. More communal, independent living in dedicated elderly flats, with some shared social facilities and wardens, would do wonders for mental health.
    Rather than expecting folk to rattle around in a home too large till they become lonely, isolated,
    depressed and unable to cope. And then banged off to an expensive care home.
  • SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,773

    Take pity on today’s 30 somethings who seem barely to have known an economy not in crisis.

    One issue, is that we do seem to have the view nowadays that the government should be able to 'fix' any problem out there.

    And they don;'t have the power to solve this one .
    I had my doubts about bailing out the banks (I understood why it happened) but ever since then governments are faced with angry electorates saying 'well you bailed out the banks, you should intervene here.'
    We are used to governments saying 'whatever it takes'. It happened with the banks, it happened with COVID, it's now going to happen with energy costs.

    The decade long low interest rate/flow of cheap money was always going to store up issues.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    Driver said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Driver said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Driver said:

    Dynamo said:

    Sean_F said:


    Putin regards all of Ukraine and Belarus and the Baltic States as lost lands.

    Plainly, it would be excellent news if Ukraine recaptured Crimea and Donbass, but that's probably too much to hope for.

    So you are pro-revanchist. (That doesn't in itself mean you're wrong, but we might as well use words right.)

    Anyway the neo-Nazis of the Ukrainian army
    Some of us had you pegged as a Russian trollbot from your earliest posts, but you've stopped even pretending, which is a shame.
    Irrespective of the merits of your general position, the dishonesty of that purported quotation makes you look a complete arse.
    It was merely the point at which anyone who hadn't already been convinced should have needed to stop reading.
    No, it was a truly shitty little subterfuge.

    for new readers, he truncated "Anyway the neo-Nazis of the Ukrainian army's Azov Regiment..." to "Anyway the neo-Nazis of the Ukrainian army..."
    The part is part of the whole...
    jerk
  • Sean_F said:

    Dynamo said:

    Sean_F said:


    Putin regards all of Ukraine and Belarus and the Baltic States as lost lands.

    Plainly, it would be excellent news if Ukraine recaptured Crimea and Donbass, but that's probably too much to hope for.

    So you are pro-revanchist. (That doesn't in itself mean you're wrong, but we might as well use words right.)

    Anyway the neo-Nazis of the Ukrainian army's Azov Regiment already control a portion of the Donbas, so if the position is not yet "excellent" does it count as "quite good" maybe? Would you say that to people who live there? If you think it's "plain" that it would be supertastic for the Ukrainian armed forces to reconquer the Crimea and re-establish the position created by Khrushchev in the 1950s, then there's no need to argue for the proposition against dimwits like me. The same may be true of the notion that a demonic Putin wants to fly the Russian flag over Belarus.

    Perhaps Khrushchev was looking a long way into the future (all the way to BЯexit and Scottish Iиdependeиce?*) when he said that if he were British he would vote Tory.

    * British politicians known for cooperating up to their eyeballs with Russia Today include Nigel Farage and Alec Salmond, as well as George Galloway. I can't think of any who were pro-Remain and pro-Union. Funny that.
    What I want to see happen when Ukraine takes back its territories is for people like you to get a bullet through the head.
    Could be tricky to arrange if he's working in London for Amnesty
    It's also extremely unpleasant.
    So is support for Putin
  • kjhkjh Posts: 11,786
    MaxPB said:

    The US does seem to have a deeply engrained, more positive culture toward entrepreneurship and I presume therefore financial risk.

    That made sense during the days of frontier expansion, but perhaps less so now.

    Nevertheless, it would good to figure out how much the UK could get some of that. It seems to be a factor independent of the actual regulatory and perhaps even fiscal burden.

    It changed here post 2008 IMO, we turned into a much more meek society hell bent on protecting what little we have rather than taking risks to expand.

    The whole government and media rhetoric around casino banking and such didn't help. I also think not letting RBS and HBOS go bankrupt didn't help. RBS is still stinking up the equity markets with a lower book value market cap, Lloyds is slightly better.

    That renewal of companies post 2008 didn't happen, we are still left with a load of zombie companies carrying debt that they can just about service but unable to invest so they just stay where they are. Hopefully rising rates will finally put them out of their misery and newer and better companies will take their place.

    Finally, the UK has a significant number of defined benefit pensioners either retired or about to retire. This alone limits the amount of risk companies can take as a significant proportion of their cost base is now essentially paid to employees who have zero productivity.

    One, very controversial, thing the government could do is pass primary legislation to restate all defined benefit schemes as defined contribution with a formula to convert them, state and private.
    I rather (no very much ) like your last 2 paras @maxpb. DB pensions are a drag on business. We need some original thought. It would also give those pensioners some flexibility with their funds which could also stimulate the economy (assuming they weren't all boring and just bought an annuity).
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,361

    Taz said:

    HYUFD said:

    MaxPB said:

    ohnotnow said:

    Just reading some voxpop-esque stuff on the BBC. My heart is bleeding...

    Louise and her husband have been saving to move home in Brighton since 2020, but they're having a major rethink.

    "We've had to substantially reconsider the amount of money we can borrow, says Louise.

    They'd been hoping to move to a bigger house so they could start a family.

    But now they can only afford smaller houses, Louise says it's "making us wonder whether we should bother moving at all".

    "Our options are either to stay put where we are or move to something about £200,000 cheaper than we had hoped."
    Maybe, but look at the underlying message there - couple who want to start a family are now unlikely to do so because they can't afford to move into their desired house.

    @Leon is right, the nation needs to have a rethink on how we approach old age care provision. The current mandate the NHS has to extend life at any cost is going to bankrupt the nation. Providing expensive care for a 90 year old so they can live for 6 more months results in higher taxes and lower income for working age people and less availability of housing which pushes up housing costs.

    You may dismiss these people but we need families and we need policies to help couples become families. Not just laugh at their misfortune.
    The average age at which most people own a property is 39 not 69.

    We don't need to kill off the likes of Mr and Mrs BigG as Leon was suggesting earlier.

    We also need tighter control of immigration
    We've "regained control", what are your Party doing about it aside from talking tough and using Rwanda while allowing hundreds of thousands into the country.

    Personally I have no problem with inward migration. I think we need to concentrate on the infrastructure and homes to meet the demands of our new citizens.
    And that's increasingly the mood of the nation. Here's an interesting graph;



    https://twitter.com/BNHWalker/status/1555118652768354306

    The really interesting thing to me is that the downtrend in support for "cut immigration a lot" started in 2013ish, and there's not much of a break of trend since- including in 2016.
    That looks like a methodology change in the series in 2013. Phone poll to online?
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,433

    Sean_F said:

    Dynamo said:

    Sean_F said:


    Putin regards all of Ukraine and Belarus and the Baltic States as lost lands.

    Plainly, it would be excellent news if Ukraine recaptured Crimea and Donbass, but that's probably too much to hope for.

    So you are pro-revanchist. (That doesn't in itself mean you're wrong, but we might as well use words right.)

    Anyway the neo-Nazis of the Ukrainian army's Azov Regiment already control a portion of the Donbas, so if the position is not yet "excellent" does it count as "quite good" maybe? Would you say that to people who live there? If you think it's "plain" that it would be supertastic for the Ukrainian armed forces to reconquer the Crimea and re-establish the position created by Khrushchev in the 1950s, then there's no need to argue for the proposition against dimwits like me. The same may be true of the notion that a demonic Putin wants to fly the Russian flag over Belarus.

    Perhaps Khrushchev was looking a long way into the future (all the way to BЯexit and Scottish Iиdependeиce?*) when he said that if he were British he would vote Tory.

    * British politicians known for cooperating up to their eyeballs with Russia Today include Nigel Farage and Alec Salmond, as well as George Galloway. I can't think of any who were pro-Remain and pro-Union. Funny that.
    What I want to see happen when Ukraine takes back its territories is for people like you to get a bullet through the head.
    Could be tricky to arrange if he's working in London for Amnesty
    It's also extremely unpleasant.
    So is support for Putin
    There is (thank goodness) a wide variety of positions on every subject at PB. We disagree passionately on many things, but hopefully we can get by without wishing each other to be terminated.
  • CiceroCicero Posts: 3,078
    Liz Truss´s comments on the independence of the Bank of England are going to cost Brits a lot of money. It really is back to the Seventies: weak fiscal policy and the undermining of monetary policy without any understanding of how you can be credible to the markets and why you need to be.

    The Tories will try and sell the "its a global problem" line for all that they are worth. Unfortunately Britain will be at the bottom of the pile and that really is the result of their exceptionally poor policy choices.

    The Bond market is going to kill off the Tories, quite possibly for a generation.

    "Never glad, confident morning again"
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 4,587
    Leon said:

    Can I second those PB-ers who are asking: where the heck do I put cash to hedge against inflation? Somewhere reasonably liquid but safe from a crash?

    Try one of the wealth-preservation funds, e.g:

    https://www.hl.co.uk/shares/shares-search-results/c/capital-gearing-trust-plc-ord-25p-shares/company-information

    (There are others. This is not financial advice. I do not hold this fund)
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,288
    We also need to get real about demented old people. Someone with severe Alzheimer's in their 80s and 90s should be given a huge whack of numbing morphine to imbibe, or not, and at that point the state has paid its debt, and now they have to take their chances

    Instead, at vast expense to everyone - emotionally as well as financially - we keep them alive for years. Which is lovely and humane and kind, but is it? Is it even humane - to them? Or do we do it to make ourselves feel better for no good reason?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,388
    Sean_F said:

    Dynamo said:

    Sean_F said:


    Putin regards all of Ukraine and Belarus and the Baltic States as lost lands.

    Plainly, it would be excellent news if Ukraine recaptured Crimea and Donbass, but that's probably too much to hope for.

    So you are pro-revanchist. (That doesn't in itself mean you're wrong, but we might as well use words right.)

    Anyway the neo-Nazis of the Ukrainian army's Azov Regiment already control a portion of the Donbas, so if the position is not yet "excellent" does it count as "quite good" maybe? Would you say that to people who live there? If you think it's "plain" that it would be supertastic for the Ukrainian armed forces to reconquer the Crimea and re-establish the position created by Khrushchev in the 1950s, then there's no need to argue for the proposition against dimwits like me. The same may be true of the notion that a demonic Putin wants to fly the Russian flag over Belarus.

    Perhaps Khrushchev was looking a long way into the future (all the way to BЯexit and Scottish Iиdependeиce?*) when he said that if he were British he would vote Tory.

    * British politicians known for cooperating up to their eyeballs with Russia Today include Nigel Farage and Alec Salmond, as well as George Galloway. I can't think of any who were pro-Remain and pro-Union. Funny that.
    What I want to see happen when Ukraine takes back its territories is for people like you to get a bullet through the head.
    A more fitting punishment would be to force them to watch all Donald Trump's speeches on a loop, with the subtitle 'This is how you come across' flashing at them all the time.

    It would have much the same effect but be slower and a better deterrent.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,388
    Leon said:

    We also need to get real about demented old people. Someone with severe Alzheimer's in their 80s and 90s should be given a huge whack of numbing morphine to imbibe, or not, and at that point the state has paid its debt, and now they have to take their chances

    Instead, at vast expense to everyone - emotionally as well as financially - we keep them alive for years. Which is lovely and humane and kind, but is it? Is it even humane - to them? Or do we do it to make ourselves feel better for no good reason?

    What about demented middle-aged people?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,288
    ydoethur said:

    Leon said:

    We also need to get real about demented old people. Someone with severe Alzheimer's in their 80s and 90s should be given a huge whack of numbing morphine to imbibe, or not, and at that point the state has paid its debt, and now they have to take their chances

    Instead, at vast expense to everyone - emotionally as well as financially - we keep them alive for years. Which is lovely and humane and kind, but is it? Is it even humane - to them? Or do we do it to make ourselves feel better for no good reason?

    What about demented middle-aged people?
    Personally, I'd cut them a bit of slack
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,358
    edited August 2022
    ydoethur said:

    Sean_F said:

    Dynamo said:

    Sean_F said:


    Putin regards all of Ukraine and Belarus and the Baltic States as lost lands.

    Plainly, it would be excellent news if Ukraine recaptured Crimea and Donbass, but that's probably too much to hope for.

    So you are pro-revanchist. (That doesn't in itself mean you're wrong, but we might as well use words right.)

    Anyway the neo-Nazis of the Ukrainian army's Azov Regiment already control a portion of the Donbas, so if the position is not yet "excellent" does it count as "quite good" maybe? Would you say that to people who live there? If you think it's "plain" that it would be supertastic for the Ukrainian armed forces to reconquer the Crimea and re-establish the position created by Khrushchev in the 1950s, then there's no need to argue for the proposition against dimwits like me. The same may be true of the notion that a demonic Putin wants to fly the Russian flag over Belarus.

    Perhaps Khrushchev was looking a long way into the future (all the way to BЯexit and Scottish Iиdependeиce?*) when he said that if he were British he would vote Tory.

    * British politicians known for cooperating up to their eyeballs with Russia Today include Nigel Farage and Alec Salmond, as well as George Galloway. I can't think of any who were pro-Remain and pro-Union. Funny that.
    What I want to see happen when Ukraine takes back its territories is for people like you to get a bullet through the head.
    A more fitting punishment would be to force them to watch all Donald Trump's speeches on a loop, with the subtitle 'This is how you come across' flashing at them all the time.

    It would have much the same effect but be slower and a better deterrent.
    That would work.

    In the words of Gus Fring "A bullet through the head is too humane."
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,921

    Taz said:

    HYUFD said:

    MaxPB said:

    ohnotnow said:

    Just reading some voxpop-esque stuff on the BBC. My heart is bleeding...

    Louise and her husband have been saving to move home in Brighton since 2020, but they're having a major rethink.

    "We've had to substantially reconsider the amount of money we can borrow, says Louise.

    They'd been hoping to move to a bigger house so they could start a family.

    But now they can only afford smaller houses, Louise says it's "making us wonder whether we should bother moving at all".

    "Our options are either to stay put where we are or move to something about £200,000 cheaper than we had hoped."
    Maybe, but look at the underlying message there - couple who want to start a family are now unlikely to do so because they can't afford to move into their desired house.

    @Leon is right, the nation needs to have a rethink on how we approach old age care provision. The current mandate the NHS has to extend life at any cost is going to bankrupt the nation. Providing expensive care for a 90 year old so they can live for 6 more months results in higher taxes and lower income for working age people and less availability of housing which pushes up housing costs.

    You may dismiss these people but we need families and we need policies to help couples become families. Not just laugh at their misfortune.
    The average age at which most people own a property is 39 not 69.

    We don't need to kill off the likes of Mr and Mrs BigG as Leon was suggesting earlier.

    We also need tighter control of immigration
    We've "regained control", what are your Party doing about it aside from talking tough and using Rwanda while allowing hundreds of thousands into the country.

    Personally I have no problem with inward migration. I think we need to concentrate on the infrastructure and homes to meet the demands of our new citizens.
    And that's increasingly the mood of the nation. Here's an interesting graph;



    https://twitter.com/BNHWalker/status/1555118652768354306

    The really interesting thing to me is that the downtrend in support for "cut immigration a lot" started in 2013ish, and there's not much of a break of trend since- including in 2016.
    On that chart reducing immigration still has about a 30% lead over increasing immigration
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,368

    nico679 said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    So glad we fixed for 5 years when we got our house last year. 13% inflation is mad, interest rates will have to rise quite substantially, much more than the Bank is currently letting on. Whoever wins in 2024 is fucked.

    As fucked as whoever wins in September? By 2024, there might be enough visible failure for a grownup conversation about what we do about this, rather than all the boosterism nonsense.

    Meanwhile, Bozza looks like he may have done the political equivalent of shimmying down the drainpipe just before the husband enters the room. A fair chunk of the incoming pain is his responsibility, but you can be sure that his successor will be the one to cop the blame,
    Even more so, IMO. They're going to have to cut spending more than we've ever seen and to areas where cuts have previously been unthinkable like the NHS and pensions.
    In retrospect, we should have let Covid rip. Kill a million old people 🤷‍♂️🤷‍♂️ and the obese 🧐

    Before I am accused of callousness, my parents would have gone in the cull. So be it
    It's hard to say how much that strategy would have helped. At least some lost production is due to people actually being ill with Covid rather than being due to the measures taken to mitigate the spread of Covid.
    If everyone over 80 had died, that would have

    1 freed up a ton of property
    2 hugely reduced the burden of care on the state
    3 created a cascade of wealth thru the economy
    4 created business BY ITSELF (funeral homes etc)
    5 reduced the average age/obesity of the populace

    I might sound like I’m joking; I’m not
    What’s not to like . It also removes a lot of Tory voters which can only be a good thing for the country !
    Are you really that bitter
    I think the target of your ire should be @Leon .
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,388
    Leon said:

    ydoethur said:

    Leon said:

    We also need to get real about demented old people. Someone with severe Alzheimer's in their 80s and 90s should be given a huge whack of numbing morphine to imbibe, or not, and at that point the state has paid its debt, and now they have to take their chances

    Instead, at vast expense to everyone - emotionally as well as financially - we keep them alive for years. Which is lovely and humane and kind, but is it? Is it even humane - to them? Or do we do it to make ourselves feel better for no good reason?

    What about demented middle-aged people?
    Personally, I'd cut them a bit of slack
    Never heard cocaine called that before.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    ydoethur said:

    Leon said:

    We also need to get real about demented old people. Someone with severe Alzheimer's in their 80s and 90s should be given a huge whack of numbing morphine to imbibe, or not, and at that point the state has paid its debt, and now they have to take their chances

    Instead, at vast expense to everyone - emotionally as well as financially - we keep them alive for years. Which is lovely and humane and kind, but is it? Is it even humane - to them? Or do we do it to make ourselves feel better for no good reason?

    What about demented middle-aged people?
    You want to abolish the entire DFE?
  • ydoethur said:

    Leon said:

    We also need to get real about demented old people. Someone with severe Alzheimer's in their 80s and 90s should be given a huge whack of numbing morphine to imbibe, or not, and at that point the state has paid its debt, and now they have to take their chances

    Instead, at vast expense to everyone - emotionally as well as financially - we keep them alive for years. Which is lovely and humane and kind, but is it? Is it even humane - to them? Or do we do it to make ourselves feel better for no good reason?

    What about demented middle-aged people?
    Let them carry on working for Amnesty
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,388
    IshmaelZ said:

    ydoethur said:

    Leon said:

    We also need to get real about demented old people. Someone with severe Alzheimer's in their 80s and 90s should be given a huge whack of numbing morphine to imbibe, or not, and at that point the state has paid its debt, and now they have to take their chances

    Instead, at vast expense to everyone - emotionally as well as financially - we keep them alive for years. Which is lovely and humane and kind, but is it? Is it even humane - to them? Or do we do it to make ourselves feel better for no good reason?

    What about demented middle-aged people?
    You want to abolish the entire DFE?
    *Thinks carefully*

    Well, that would be an acceptable compromise between letting them carry and what I actually want to do to them.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,921

    Take pity on today’s 30 somethings who seem barely to have known an economy not in crisis.

    One issue, is that we do seem to have the view nowadays that the government should be able to 'fix' any problem out there.

    And they don;'t have the power to solve this one .
    I had my doubts about bailing out the banks (I understood why it happened) but ever since then governments are faced with angry electorates saying 'well you bailed out the banks, you should intervene here.'
    If the US House of Representatives had stuck by its first vote in 2008 against the bank bailout, virtually the whole lot would have gone under, not just Lehmans
  • IshmaelZ said:

    ydoethur said:

    Leon said:

    We also need to get real about demented old people. Someone with severe Alzheimer's in their 80s and 90s should be given a huge whack of numbing morphine to imbibe, or not, and at that point the state has paid its debt, and now they have to take their chances

    Instead, at vast expense to everyone - emotionally as well as financially - we keep them alive for years. Which is lovely and humane and kind, but is it? Is it even humane - to them? Or do we do it to make ourselves feel better for no good reason?

    What about demented middle-aged people?
    You want to abolish the entire DFE?
    Best to think of that as a kind of care (or rather, don't care) in the community.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,070
    Somewhat impolitic, but I had to LOL.

    South Korea's President didn’t meet Nancy Pelosi because he didn't want to interrupt his vacation, his office says
    https://twitter.com/business/status/1555129418753916929
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,822
    ydoethur said:

    Leon said:

    We also need to get real about demented old people. Someone with severe Alzheimer's in their 80s and 90s should be given a huge whack of numbing morphine to imbibe, or not, and at that point the state has paid its debt, and now they have to take their chances

    Instead, at vast expense to everyone - emotionally as well as financially - we keep them alive for years. Which is lovely and humane and kind, but is it? Is it even humane - to them? Or do we do it to make ourselves feel better for no good reason?

    What about demented middle-aged people?
    Don't forget the reptilian elite who live on for centuries in all of this. How much do they cost the NHS. I bet THEY WILL NOT TELL US THAT!!!!!
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,368
    Nigelb said:

    Somewhat impolitic, but I had to LOL.

    South Korea's President didn’t meet Nancy Pelosi because he didn't want to interrupt his vacation, his office says
    https://twitter.com/business/status/1555129418753916929

    Since when did Dominic Raab become President of South Korea?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,921
    Sean_F said:

    Nigelb said:

    .

    Wow. Simon Jenkins contrasts the west's "parody of imperial outreach" with Russia and China who "have merely desired to repossess ancestral neighbours".

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/aug/03/taiwan-nancy-pelosi-visit-ukraine-us

    If Jenkins were to be taken seriously, he'd be a dangerous fool.
    As it is, he's a fairly harmless eccentric who occasionally says interesting things.
    Jenkins is the kind of man who is quite happy to "cement evil", as Joachim Gauke put it.
    Jenkins is very much in the realpolitik isolationist school, leave Russia and China to it, Ukraine and Taiwan are far away and of no direct interest to us. Give some token aid to Ukraine and
    that is it. To be fair he also was no enthusiast for the conflicts in Iraq or Afghanistan either
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,388

    Nigelb said:

    Somewhat impolitic, but I had to LOL.

    South Korea's President didn’t meet Nancy Pelosi because he didn't want to interrupt his vacation, his office says
    https://twitter.com/business/status/1555129418753916929

    Since when did Dominic Raab become President of South Korea?
    Since he had a religious experience and discovered his Seoul.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,288
    We also need to start believing in god and heaven again. Everyone is terrified of dying because they are like Phil Larkin in aubade. They think death is an eternity of nullity. Forever not existing. Get a grip you atheist wankers
  • 148grss148grss Posts: 4,155
    Leon said:

    We also need to get real about demented old people. Someone with severe Alzheimer's in their 80s and 90s should be given a huge whack of numbing morphine to imbibe, or not, and at that point the state has paid its debt, and now they have to take their chances

    Instead, at vast expense to everyone - emotionally as well as financially - we keep them alive for years. Which is lovely and humane and kind, but is it? Is it even humane - to them? Or do we do it to make ourselves feel better for no good reason?

    I would come at this from a different pov; I think it should be acceptable for people who wish to take the dignitas option, as long as they make that decision without pressure and it is about their autonomy over their quality of life. If you have a power of attorney who has a document outlining a position written before a stroke or steep decline that says "if I ever get to x state, let me go in peace" I have no issue with that.

    Your position, again, is just a hair away from saying all useless eaters should be terminated.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,288
    HYUFD said:

    Sean_F said:

    Nigelb said:

    .

    Wow. Simon Jenkins contrasts the west's "parody of imperial outreach" with Russia and China who "have merely desired to repossess ancestral neighbours".

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/aug/03/taiwan-nancy-pelosi-visit-ukraine-us

    If Jenkins were to be taken seriously, he'd be a dangerous fool.
    As it is, he's a fairly harmless eccentric who occasionally says interesting things.
    Jenkins is the kind of man who is quite happy to "cement evil", as Joachim Gauke put it.
    Jenkins is very much in the realpolitik isolationist school, leave Russia and China to it, Ukraine and Taiwan are far away and of no direct interest to us. Give some token aid to Ukraine and
    that is it. To be fair he also was no enthusiast for the conflicts in Iraq or Afghanistan either
    I think he’s more a nervous old journalist, in need to a controversial opinion, so he can keep his job
  • kjh said:

    kjh said:

    Good afternoon

    Still very much under the weather with covid but listening to the BOE governor he seems utterly powerless to mitigate the economic crisis now unfolding both here and across Europe, and it seems the country is becoming ungovernable by any political party for the forceable future and 2024 is definitely the election to lose

    Is this your first bout big G? Have I got that right? I have still managed to avoid it. Or at least if I have had it I didn't know. During the pandemic I have just gone for proper ailments ( paralysed vocal cord, broken legs) not your namby pamby COVID.
    Yes and for my wife.

    We caught it last week while on holiday on the Caledonian canal and it has floored both of us with my wife saying she has not felt as bad since she had Asian flu. Today is day 7 and we expect it will be some days more before we see much of an improvement

    We have both had 4 jabs and another due but at 78 and 82 it is not ideal to catch this rather nasty bug
    Get well soon Big G. Just realised my post sounded a bit callous, which wasn't intentional.
    Thanks and it was not callous at all
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,368
    Leon said:

    We also need to start believing in god and heaven again. Everyone is terrified of dying because they are like Phil Larkin in aubade. They think death is an eternity of nullity. Forever not existing. Get a grip you atheist wankers

    Agnostic w@nkers! We had this discussion last evening.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,921
    Taz said:

    HYUFD said:

    MaxPB said:

    ohnotnow said:

    Just reading some voxpop-esque stuff on the BBC. My heart is bleeding...

    Louise and her husband have been saving to move home in Brighton since 2020, but they're having a major rethink.

    "We've had to substantially reconsider the amount of money we can borrow, says Louise.

    They'd been hoping to move to a bigger house so they could start a family.

    But now they can only afford smaller houses, Louise says it's "making us wonder whether we should bother moving at all".

    "Our options are either to stay put where we are or move to something about £200,000 cheaper than we had hoped."
    Maybe, but look at the underlying message there - couple who want to start a family are now unlikely to do so because they can't afford to move into their desired house.

    @Leon is right, the nation needs to have a rethink on how we approach old age care provision. The current mandate the NHS has to extend life at any cost is going to bankrupt the nation. Providing expensive care for a 90 year old so they can live for 6 more months results in higher taxes and lower income for working age people and less availability of housing which pushes up housing costs.

    You may dismiss these people but we need families and we need policies to help couples become families. Not just laugh at their misfortune.
    The average age at which most people own a property is 39 not 69.

    We don't need to kill off the likes of Mr and Mrs BigG as Leon was suggesting earlier.

    We also need tighter control of immigration
    We've "regained control", what are your Party doing about it aside from talking tough and using Rwanda while allowing hundreds of thousands into the country.

    Personally I have no problem with inward migration. I think we need to concentrate on the infrastructure and homes to meet the demands of our new citizens.
    It ended free movement from the EU and replaced it with the same points system that applies to the rest of the world.

    We are one of the most densely populated nations on earth, England certainly. There are limits to how many new homes and how much infrastructure and public services we can afford and provide
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,957
    Alistair said:

    TOPPING said:

    Mortimer said:

    TOPPING said:

    Taz said:

    I fear for those businesses and staff predominantly in the hospitality industry. It will be a bloodbath for them, especially in the less busy months post Xmas. Discretionary spend is going to fall off a cliff and the new PM, Liz Truss, is going to have to pivot very quickly from her current promises onto it to get something done. Average bills of £3,500 a year are going to see some people with bills far higher than that.

    There is still a wall of cash sloshing around from lockdown, where savings rates went through the roof, and the MPC was necessarily forced down. That is still playing out and will do for the next few months at least.

    Try getting a builder/plumber/sparks to come to your house next week. Ain't gonna happen.
    Add to this that Cable means our goods look cheap to the Americans. We've just had one of our best ever months for international sales....
    Long may it last. I still have my Brexit (= dollar weighted) position on. Has not quite let me down albeit with a few wobbles.

    A friend just showed me the long term chart of the S&P v FTSE and the difference in perf (S&P = 5x FTSE) is extraordinary.
    Is that a total return comparison (i.e. Dividends reinvested) or just share price?
    yep not sure - he just showed me the chart; I didn't ask on what basis it was. I'll ask him.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,433
    glw said:

    Leon said:

    glw said:

    Leon said:

    If these BoE predictions pan out, and if they are mirrored across the West, then the pressure on Ukraine to sue for a bitter peace will be irresistible

    I see Marine Le Pen is arguing this in France already. She is not entirely stupid: she sees the political opportunity

    And it could get worse. Putin could shut off all gas and oil and see if we blink first. I suspect we would

    And when Ukraine has given up territory what you do propose we do the next time Putin decides to expand his "Russian Empire"?

    People arguing that Ukraine should cede territory are essentially saying "third time lucky" to Ukraine. No previous agreement has been upheld by Russia, why should anyone trust Russia now?

    If we want to end the war the best way is to arm Ukraine so that they can do so on their terms, not give in to Russia.

    I AM NOT SAYING ANY OF THAT

    Check my comments

    I am merely observing that with the awful economic prospectus the tacit pressure from the west, on Ukraine, to make a bad peace might be irresistible
    It won't be a bad peace, it will merely be a pause until Putin goes for the rest of Ukraine, or the territory of some other country. Putin must be defeated.
    This is a mantra rather than an argument. And the same things will be being said by the other side - 'we must win this war against the West, if they win Ukraine what next, this is an existential fight for Russia'. Yet we expect or hope for Putin to act rationally in the face of military losses and economic damage, and withdraw. Someone needs to start acting like the grown up in the room.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,585
    Sean_F said:

    glw said:

    Leon said:

    If these BoE predictions pan out, and if they are mirrored across the West, then the pressure on Ukraine to sue for a bitter peace will be irresistible

    I see Marine Le Pen is arguing this in France already. She is not entirely stupid: she sees the political opportunity

    And it could get worse. Putin could shut off all gas and oil and see if we blink first. I suspect we would

    And when Ukraine has given up territory what you do propose we do the next time Putin decides to expand his "Russian Empire"?

    People arguing that Ukraine should cede territory are essentially saying "third time lucky" to Ukraine. No previous agreement has been upheld by Russia, why should anyone trust Russia now?

    If we want to end the war the best way is to arm Ukraine so that they can do so on their terms, not give in to Russia.

    Once Kherson goes, I suspect we'll see the Russian position collapse like a pack of cards.
    Kherson does give every impression of being the cork in the bottle. Keep the HIMARS coming!
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,921
    Leon said:

    We also need to start believing in god and heaven again. Everyone is terrified of dying because they are like Phil Larkin in aubade. They think death is an eternity of nullity. Forever not existing. Get a grip you atheist wankers

    Indeed, if you truly believe in God you have no great fear of death but hope for eternal life (albeit there is the downside of hell too if you were really bad until you truly repent)
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,070

    Nigelb said:

    Somewhat impolitic, but I had to LOL.

    South Korea's President didn’t meet Nancy Pelosi because he didn't want to interrupt his vacation, his office says
    https://twitter.com/business/status/1555129418753916929

    Since when did Dominic Raab become President of South Korea?
    The new (conservative) administration had taken quite a strong pro-US line, but they seem to have got cold feet following China's tetchy response to the Taiwan visit.

    https://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/nation/2022/08/120_333926.html
    A huge question has arisen in Korea as U.S. House Speaker Nancy Pelosi's visit to Seoul as part of her high-profile Asia trip: did the Yoon administration handle the reception of the high-ranking U.S. official appropriately?

    Pelosi arrived in Seoul on Wednesday night from Taiwan for a two-day visit, during which she met her counterpart, National Assembly Speaker Kim Jin-pyo, and visited the Panmunjom Joint Security Area standing between the two Koreas.

    Her visit to Korea became the subject of heated debate here, just as her previous stop in Taiwan did ― though for slightly different reasons ― due to the possible impact on Seoul's relations with Beijing of her bold efforts to show her support of democracy in Taiwan and stand up against China's autocracy.

    The South Korean government was cautious of Pelosi's visit. President Yoon Suk-yeol has already showed a hard tilt toward Washington in the face of the intensifying U.S.-China rivalry several times, triggering temperamental responses from Beijing.

    Neither the Ministry of Foreign Affairs nor the National Assembly sent a South Korean delegation to welcome Speaker Pelosi when she arrived at Osan Air Base in Pyeongtaek. Broadcaster TV Chosun and other media reported that Pelosi was "very displeased" that no one from the Korean side was there to greet her, citing an unnamed official at the U.S. embassy here. ...
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,957

    TOPPING said:

    Mortimer said:

    TOPPING said:

    Taz said:

    I fear for those businesses and staff predominantly in the hospitality industry. It will be a bloodbath for them, especially in the less busy months post Xmas. Discretionary spend is going to fall off a cliff and the new PM, Liz Truss, is going to have to pivot very quickly from her current promises onto it to get something done. Average bills of £3,500 a year are going to see some people with bills far higher than that.

    There is still a wall of cash sloshing around from lockdown, where savings rates went through the roof, and the MPC was necessarily forced down. That is still playing out and will do for the next few months at least.

    Try getting a builder/plumber/sparks to come to your house next week. Ain't gonna happen.
    Add to this that Cable means our goods look cheap to the Americans. We've just had one of our best ever months for international sales....
    Long may it last. I still have my Brexit (= dollar weighted) position on. Has not quite let me down albeit with a few wobbles.

    A friend just showed me the long term chart of the S&P v FTSE and the difference in perf (S&P = 5x FTSE) is extraordinary.
    Be careful - part of that is tech weighting.

    I suspect I could cut the data in a defensible way that looks much better for the FTSE
    Yep I'm sure - I would be quite interested to see it. As I said he just showed me the chart and that was it - I didn't ask how it had been compiled or weighted or whether it was total return or what CCY treatment...

    In fact I'm going to ask him to send it to me now!!
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,288
    edited August 2022

    Leon said:

    We also need to start believing in god and heaven again. Everyone is terrified of dying because they are like Phil Larkin in aubade. They think death is an eternity of nullity. Forever not existing. Get a grip you atheist wankers

    Agnostic w@nkers! We had this discussion last evening.
    Everyone should calm down about this whole “death” thing

    I SPOKE TO GOD JUST LAST DECEMBER. When I did ayahuasca in Menorca

    God is a bit of a c*nt but basically it’s all fine. When you die your soul is reabsorbed into the mighty river of consciousness which turns the turbines of reality which constantly powers the universe. So chill out
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,679
    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    We also need to start believing in god and heaven again. Everyone is terrified of dying because they are like Phil Larkin in aubade. They think death is an eternity of nullity. Forever not existing. Get a grip you atheist wankers

    Indeed, if you truly believe in God you have no great fear of death but hope for eternal life (albeit there is the downside of hell too if you were really bad until you truly repent)
    Sitting on a cloud strumming a harp with a load of bible punchers for ever? No thanks. I think I'll take my chances with an eternity of nullity.
  • bigglesbiggles Posts: 6,052
    Leon said:

    We also need to start believing in god and heaven again. Everyone is terrified of dying because they are like Phil Larkin in aubade. They think death is an eternity of nullity. Forever not existing. Get a grip you atheist wankers

    We don’t think it’s an “eternity” of anything. We think we cease to exist. Everything about us is gone in an instant. But we did exist, and viewed from a certain perspective, still do as an event which happened.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,957
    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    We also need to start believing in god and heaven again. Everyone is terrified of dying because they are like Phil Larkin in aubade. They think death is an eternity of nullity. Forever not existing. Get a grip you atheist wankers

    Indeed, if you truly believe in God you have no great fear of death but hope for eternal life (albeit there is the downside of hell too if you were really bad until you truly repent)
    Where do you think you're heading?
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,957
    I think believing in god because you want to live forever in heaven is a bit like 100% of people who get married thinking they won't get divorced when the current divorce rate is 33%.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,070
    148grss said:

    Leon said:

    We also need to get real about demented old people. Someone with severe Alzheimer's in their 80s and 90s should be given a huge whack of numbing morphine to imbibe, or not, and at that point the state has paid its debt, and now they have to take their chances

    Instead, at vast expense to everyone - emotionally as well as financially - we keep them alive for years. Which is lovely and humane and kind, but is it? Is it even humane - to them? Or do we do it to make ourselves feel better for no good reason?

    I would come at this from a different pov; I think it should be acceptable for people who wish to take the dignitas option, as long as they make that decision without pressure and it is about their autonomy over their quality of life. If you have a power of attorney who has a document outlining a position written before a stroke or steep decline that says "if I ever get to x state, let me go in peace" I have no issue with that.

    Your position, again, is just a hair away from saying all useless eaters should be terminated.
    Soylent Green !
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,070
    TOPPING said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    We also need to start believing in god and heaven again. Everyone is terrified of dying because they are like Phil Larkin in aubade. They think death is an eternity of nullity. Forever not existing. Get a grip you atheist wankers

    Indeed, if you truly believe in God you have no great fear of death but hope for eternal life (albeit there is the downside of hell too if you were really bad until you truly repent)
    Where do you think you're heading?
    HYUFD is clearly one of the elect.
This discussion has been closed.