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The latest polling is giving us widely different numbers – politicalbetting.com

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  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,962

    Nigelb said:

    Tory leadership race ‘where we are’ update.





    Are they planning to outlaw the SNP ? :smile:


    I believe internment camps with compulsory viewing of Dad’s Army and loudspeakers blasting out Vera Lynn are part of the master plan.
    If the diet is non-stop fish and chips, fried breakfast and cups of builder's tea, I'm in.
    But could you synthesise the necessary hatred of the UK to qualify? Tbf admitting to having watched a bit of Braveheart might do it.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 11,786
    Driver said:

    kjh said:

    Driver said:

    moonshine said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    moonshine said:

    As the vaccine programme has already shown us, the benefits of Brexit feedoms (or any freedoms) cannot be 'sought'; they happen. In that regard, they're a bit like lifeboats on an Ocean liner. You don't walk past them sneering and challenge the crew to find a use for them; you're just glad they're there.
    Vaccine roll-out ≠ a benefit of Brexit. We were perfectly at liberty to do our own thing while in the EU.
    You come across as silly saying this because you know perfectly well how it would have played out. Just admit that there have been some items in the plus column but you think there are far more negatives.
    That's simply wrong, and disregards the awkward squad relationship we always had with the EU as members. It would have depended entirely on the PM at the time.
    Had we not voted for Brexit and there been any realistic contender as PM other than Johnson than it’s very clear we have been in the eu procurement scheme. Starmer was making political hay about how reckless the govt was being even AFTER Brexit.

    It was a win in the Brexit column. As it turned out it had a fairly fleeting impact because of the extreme hesitation in 2021 to lift all restrictions after the win, and the silly unjustifiable reimposition of them upon omicron. But the uk vaccine procurement no doubt did save lives.
    There is a big plot hole in the "Brexit helped us with the vaccines" story. The UK would have most likely, like a couple of other EU members, decided to do it's own thing even tho part of the EU had we voted to Remain.
    Except we wouldn't have, as the the political pressure to show we were good Europeans would have been irresistible after a Remain vote.

    Which is obvious to anyone who was paying attention in 2020, who couldn't miss the amount of pressure there was to join the EU scheme even though we had left.
    What nonsense. You are just making stuff up. We did lots of stuff independent of the EU while in the EU and as we had expertise in the area I don't think there is any chance we would have just followed the EU scheme.
    Then you obviously weren't paying attention.
    Nope just not blinkered and biased by stating something that clearly you can not know as it never happened.
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 14,310

    There is a very big international campaign to get people out of farming, emanating afaik from the WEF and dangerous green factions. In The Netherlands they're shutting farms, resulting in mass protests. In the UK it isn't as bad, but the Government is still paying people to leave farming, which is a disgrace. Liz is right and brave to prioritise growing food over solar panels - let's hope that resolve continues once in office.
    As part of my family is in farming, I endorse the general thrust of your post, but Lightweight Lizzy's point is just plain silly. The amount of agricultural land that will be "lost" to solar would be miniscule even if it was greatly ramped up.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 11,786
    Driver said:

    Driver said:

    moonshine said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    moonshine said:

    As the vaccine programme has already shown us, the benefits of Brexit feedoms (or any freedoms) cannot be 'sought'; they happen. In that regard, they're a bit like lifeboats on an Ocean liner. You don't walk past them sneering and challenge the crew to find a use for them; you're just glad they're there.
    Vaccine roll-out ≠ a benefit of Brexit. We were perfectly at liberty to do our own thing while in the EU.
    You come across as silly saying this because you know perfectly well how it would have played out. Just admit that there have been some items in the plus column but you think there are far more negatives.
    That's simply wrong, and disregards the awkward squad relationship we always had with the EU as members. It would have depended entirely on the PM at the time.
    Had we not voted for Brexit and there been any realistic contender as PM other than Johnson than it’s very clear we have been in the eu procurement scheme. Starmer was making political hay about how reckless the govt was being even AFTER Brexit.

    It was a win in the Brexit column. As it turned out it had a fairly fleeting impact because of the extreme hesitation in 2021 to lift all restrictions after the win, and the silly unjustifiable reimposition of them upon omicron. But the uk vaccine procurement no doubt did save lives.
    There is a big plot hole in the "Brexit helped us with the vaccines" story. The UK would have most likely, like a couple of other EU members, decided to do it's own thing even tho part of the EU had we voted to Remain.
    Except we wouldn't have, as the the political pressure to show we were good Europeans would have been irresistible after a Remain vote.

    Which is obvious to anyone who was paying attention in 2020, who couldn't miss the amount of pressure there was to join the EU scheme even though we had left.
    That is what you want to believe.
    Backed up with evidence of having paid attention to our relationship with the EU for more than 30 years.

    Former Remainers saying "we could have done it anyway" are technically true, but massively miss the point. We wouldn't have.
    How the hell can you know? This is just based upon your hatred of the EU. Honestly.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,585
    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Yes, I was aware of that Truss fandom for Savile. Bit surprised it hasn't been raised before now.

    How is that tweet 'fandom'?

    People *liked* Saville, and he had successfully fought off allegations about the truth in court. Read those obituaries I posted from the day after she posted that tweet.

    If you want to go the other way, just look at Tom Watson's vile campaigns.
    Airing gushing public praise for a celeb isn't fandom iyo? Well there are serviceable alternatives, I suppose.
    You and I have very different definitions of 'gushing' and 'fandom', then.

    As I said, read the obituaries from the day after he died (the day after her tweet).
    Obituaries are slightly different though. They're a 'formal' thing with an etiquette of stressing the positives. The person writing them is usually just doing a job of work.
    If he’d been known to be a necrophilic paedophile on the day he’d died, you can bet the obituaries would have described him as “Entertainer turned monster”, rather than given him a hagiography.
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 14,310

    moonshine said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    moonshine said:

    As the vaccine programme has already shown us, the benefits of Brexit feedoms (or any freedoms) cannot be 'sought'; they happen. In that regard, they're a bit like lifeboats on an Ocean liner. You don't walk past them sneering and challenge the crew to find a use for them; you're just glad they're there.
    Vaccine roll-out ≠ a benefit of Brexit. We were perfectly at liberty to do our own thing while in the EU.
    You come across as silly saying this because you know perfectly well how it would have played out. Just admit that there have been some items in the plus column but you think there are far more negatives.
    That's simply wrong, and disregards the awkward squad relationship we always had with the EU as members. It would have depended entirely on the PM at the time.
    Had we not voted for Brexit and there been any realistic contender as PM other than Johnson than it’s very clear we have been in the eu procurement scheme. Starmer was making political hay about how reckless the govt was being even AFTER Brexit.

    It was a win in the Brexit column. As it turned out it had a fairly fleeting impact because of the extreme hesitation in 2021 to lift all restrictions after the win, and the silly unjustifiable reimposition of them upon omicron. But the uk vaccine procurement no doubt did save lives.
    There is a big plot hole in the "Brexit helped us with the vaccines" story. The UK would have most likely, like a couple of other EU members, decided to do it's own thing even tho part of the EU had we voted to Remain.
    No, the vax story plot hole is that if it were not for Brexit, the EMA would still be (more-or-less) the MHRA.
    Indeed. I know people from the MHRA. It was an area we were genuinely "world beating" in, and genuinely enabled further inward investment in pharma and devices. Fatboi and his cronies really fucked that one up. Fuck business he said.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,585
    edited August 2022


    Bundeskanzler Olaf Scholz
    @Bundeskanzler

    Regierungsvertreter*in aus Deutschland
    Bei @Siemens_Energy konnte ich mit eigenen Augen sehen: Die gewartete Turbine ist da und jederzeit einsatzbereit. Sie muss nur von Russland angefordert werden. Es gibt also keine technischen Gründe, die Gaslieferungen zu reduzieren.

    At @Siemens_Energy I could see with my own eyes: The serviced turbine is there and ready for use at any time. It only has to be requested from Russia. So there are no technical reasons to reduce gas supplies.

    https://twitter.com/Bundeskanzler/status/1554749662594211841

    No technical reasons Olaf, just the moral one of funding an evil, murderous tyrant

    At what point will it dawn on Herr Sholz, that despite his sucking Putin’s dick for the past six months, the Russian tyrant is still not turning the gas back on while NATO are supplying arms to Ukraine?

    The only way out of this is a lot of arms, quickly, to the Ukranians, so the war doesn’t go into the winter and Russia retreats defeated, and desparate for the gas revenue.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,592
    In other news, another gem from Corbyn's interview the other day::
    "Corbyn also suggested that he had been criticised over antisemitism because of his stance on the Middle East.

    “I have absolutely no doubt whatsoever that my clearly stated support for the right of Palestinian people to be able to live in peace free from occupation, free from being under siege as in Gaza, and for those living in refugee camps … played a factor in all this. Benjamin Netanyahu couldn’t wait to condemn me for my support for the Palestinian people.”"

    https://amp.theguardian.com/politics/2022/aug/02/jeremy-corbyn-urges-west-to-stop-arming-ukraine

    He isn't going to get back into the Labour Party, is he?
  • DriverDriver Posts: 4,963
    kjh said:

    Driver said:

    Driver said:

    moonshine said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    moonshine said:

    As the vaccine programme has already shown us, the benefits of Brexit feedoms (or any freedoms) cannot be 'sought'; they happen. In that regard, they're a bit like lifeboats on an Ocean liner. You don't walk past them sneering and challenge the crew to find a use for them; you're just glad they're there.
    Vaccine roll-out ≠ a benefit of Brexit. We were perfectly at liberty to do our own thing while in the EU.
    You come across as silly saying this because you know perfectly well how it would have played out. Just admit that there have been some items in the plus column but you think there are far more negatives.
    That's simply wrong, and disregards the awkward squad relationship we always had with the EU as members. It would have depended entirely on the PM at the time.
    Had we not voted for Brexit and there been any realistic contender as PM other than Johnson than it’s very clear we have been in the eu procurement scheme. Starmer was making political hay about how reckless the govt was being even AFTER Brexit.

    It was a win in the Brexit column. As it turned out it had a fairly fleeting impact because of the extreme hesitation in 2021 to lift all restrictions after the win, and the silly unjustifiable reimposition of them upon omicron. But the uk vaccine procurement no doubt did save lives.
    There is a big plot hole in the "Brexit helped us with the vaccines" story. The UK would have most likely, like a couple of other EU members, decided to do it's own thing even tho part of the EU had we voted to Remain.
    Except we wouldn't have, as the the political pressure to show we were good Europeans would have been irresistible after a Remain vote.

    Which is obvious to anyone who was paying attention in 2020, who couldn't miss the amount of pressure there was to join the EU scheme even though we had left.
    That is what you want to believe.
    Backed up with evidence of having paid attention to our relationship with the EU for more than 30 years.

    Former Remainers saying "we could have done it anyway" are technically true, but massively miss the point. We wouldn't have.
    How the hell can you know?
    Know 100%? I don't. But definitely beyond a reasonable doubt.
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 14,310
    Driver said:

    Driver said:

    moonshine said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    moonshine said:

    As the vaccine programme has already shown us, the benefits of Brexit feedoms (or any freedoms) cannot be 'sought'; they happen. In that regard, they're a bit like lifeboats on an Ocean liner. You don't walk past them sneering and challenge the crew to find a use for them; you're just glad they're there.
    Vaccine roll-out ≠ a benefit of Brexit. We were perfectly at liberty to do our own thing while in the EU.
    You come across as silly saying this because you know perfectly well how it would have played out. Just admit that there have been some items in the plus column but you think there are far more negatives.
    That's simply wrong, and disregards the awkward squad relationship we always had with the EU as members. It would have depended entirely on the PM at the time.
    Had we not voted for Brexit and there been any realistic contender as PM other than Johnson than it’s very clear we have been in the eu procurement scheme. Starmer was making political hay about how reckless the govt was being even AFTER Brexit.

    It was a win in the Brexit column. As it turned out it had a fairly fleeting impact because of the extreme hesitation in 2021 to lift all restrictions after the win, and the silly unjustifiable reimposition of them upon omicron. But the uk vaccine procurement no doubt did save lives.
    There is a big plot hole in the "Brexit helped us with the vaccines" story. The UK would have most likely, like a couple of other EU members, decided to do it's own thing even tho part of the EU had we voted to Remain.
    Except we wouldn't have, as the the political pressure to show we were good Europeans would have been irresistible after a Remain vote.

    Which is obvious to anyone who was paying attention in 2020, who couldn't miss the amount of pressure there was to join the EU scheme even though we had left.
    That is what you want to believe.
    Backed up with evidence of having paid attention to our relationship with the EU for more than 30 years.

    Former Remainers saying "we could have done it anyway" are technically true, but massively miss the point. We wouldn't have.
    And your expertise in the pharma and healthcare industry is what? Do you gain your opinions on that from the Daily Express in the same way you do for your opinions on the EU?

    The UK is/was a leader in the world for pharmaceuticals. It is very highly likely that we would have "done our own thing", even with a Tory government of the old more sensible less loony variety in power. So sorry, you are talking swivelly-eyed bollox. You are just desperate to find an argument that justifies the stupidity of Brexit, but when the vaccine argument is held up to scrutiny it has more holes in it than a Jeffrey Archer plot.

    Keep taking the tablets. I must go and do some work
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 8,380

    So Kansas has voted pro abortion rights:

    https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2022/08/02/us/elections/results-kansas-abortion-amendment.html

    Which means that repealing RvW is working as it should do and perhaps not how some of the GOP expected.

    The government interfering with women's bodies crowd were absolutely smashed in that vote. 59-41 in a State that Trump won in 2020 by 56-42.
    Yes, the Kansas vote is a smidgen of good news, a beacon of light, in the morass of bad news that we have been subjected to in recent times.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,136
    IshmaelZ said:

    kinabalu said:

    moonshine said:

    kinabalu said:

    Yes, I was aware of that Truss fandom for Savile. Bit surprised it hasn't been raised before now.

    Because it’s moronic to think that tweet means anything? Are you suggesting that Truss knew Savile was a dirty necrophiliac paedo and still decided to give him a positive word upon his death?
    Course not. But it's a bit dim to say it means NOTHING or to not expect dirty tricks in election campaigns. To me it means she was oblivious to the rumours and dark aura around Jimmy Savile and - worse - is the sort of person who found him an attractive benign persona. This speaks to bad judgement. Not some sort of gamechanger - since there's far more important and relevant and recent evidence of her bad judgement - but, you know, it doesn't look great. Hence why, as I say, I'd have semi expected it to have been dug up and aired before now.
    Unusual to see you digging so assiduously in so deep a hole. Just search Jimmy Savile tributes and be amazed at the outpourings. Prince of Wales, DG BBC, bloody everyone. With, with hindsight, some notable exceptions - Downing Street kept very quiet. But he is a fellow Leeds local of Truss, and Always in good spirits is pretty restrained stuff. Nothing to see here.
    Maybe she flipped it out on autopilot because of the local link. We can't know. But I don't agree it's a total nothing. Not a big deal, sure, but neither a nothing. If we imagine the evidence for her bad judgement as a large wobbly cake this is a bit of sugar sprinkled on top.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,175
    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Yes, I was aware of that Truss fandom for Savile. Bit surprised it hasn't been raised before now.

    How is that tweet 'fandom'?

    People *liked* Saville, and he had successfully fought off allegations about the truth in court. Read those obituaries I posted from the day after she posted that tweet.

    If you want to go the other way, just look at Tom Watson's vile campaigns.
    Airing gushing public praise for a celeb isn't fandom iyo? Well there are serviceable alternatives, I suppose.
    You and I have very different definitions of 'gushing' and 'fandom', then.

    As I said, read the obituaries from the day after he died (the day after her tweet).
    Obituaries are slightly different though. They're a 'formal' thing with an etiquette of stressing the positives. The person writing them is usually just doing a job of work.
    Didn't stop people being angry at the way the BBC handled the passing of Phil Spector:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-55702855

    The first version on the breaking news story on the BBC News website carried the headline: "Talented but flawed producer Phil Spector dies aged 81".

    The BBC said the headline "did not meet our editorial standards".

    The text was quickly changed to: "Pop producer jailed for murder dies at 81."
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,962
    Anyway, great to see that BJ got Brexit done and we can now put it behind us.
  • novanova Posts: 690

    Tory leadership race ‘where we are’ update.





    Surely we'll end up with the likes of Richard Littlejohn and Jeremy Clarkson in deradicalisation programmes?

    You'd be hard to find a group who spend more time professing hate for this country than middle-aged (or elderly now) male newspaper columnists.
  • nico679nico679 Posts: 6,275

    So Kansas has voted pro abortion rights:

    https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2022/08/02/us/elections/results-kansas-abortion-amendment.html

    Which means that repealing RvW is working as it should do and perhaps not how some of the GOP expected.

    The government interfering with women's bodies crowd were absolutely smashed in that vote. 59-41 in a State that Trump won in 2020 by 56-42.
    The SCOTUS decision certainly has given a boost to the Dems mid term chances of holding the Senate ,it could also help them in other downballot races like governorship and state legislatures.

    It’s pretty clear , if you want to protect your abortion rights you must vote Democrat. A GOP state legislature with a GOP governor would be a one way ticket to a loss of those rights .
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,719
    nova said:

    Tory leadership race ‘where we are’ update.





    Surely we'll end up with the likes of Richard Littlejohn and Jeremy Clarkson in deradicalisation programmes?

    You'd be hard to find a group who spend more time professing hate for this country than middle-aged (or elderly now) male newspaper columnists.
    I pretty sure Corbyn will be arrested under this bonkers plan.

    Sunak is so desperate now you can actually smell it.
  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 8,163
    DavidL said:

    So, faster growth, record exports, full employment, higher wages. It's been a disaster right enough.

    You must live on a different planet from me. Sainsbury's had empty shelves yesterday and the day before. When I asked they just said that stuff had not arrived. With a wry smile the guy told me that they were getting used it :open_mouth:
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    nova said:

    Tory leadership race ‘where we are’ update.





    Surely we'll end up with the likes of Richard Littlejohn and Jeremy Clarkson in deradicalisation programmes?

    You'd be hard to find a group who spend more time professing hate for this country than middle-aged (or elderly now) male newspaper columnists.
    Jeremy Clarkson is barely a year older than me, so let's all laugh at your foolish error in describing him as elderly.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,136
    tlg86 said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Yes, I was aware of that Truss fandom for Savile. Bit surprised it hasn't been raised before now.

    How is that tweet 'fandom'?

    People *liked* Saville, and he had successfully fought off allegations about the truth in court. Read those obituaries I posted from the day after she posted that tweet.

    If you want to go the other way, just look at Tom Watson's vile campaigns.
    Airing gushing public praise for a celeb isn't fandom iyo? Well there are serviceable alternatives, I suppose.
    So what if she was a fan? My favourite Savile praise is in Rob Brydon's book published just before it all came out:

    Jimmy was something of a hero of mine. Like Basil Brush, he was someone who turned a lot of people off, but to whom I was drawn...I can remember, as though it was last week,...sitting with Jimmy after the show and listening to him dispense his wisdom. I don't say that in a sarcastic way; I've remembered his words to this day. 'Look at me,' he said, 'I can't sing, I can't dance, I can't act. I can do f*** all. But, I turn up at places, I smile, I wave. The punters look at me and say, "Jim's having a good time, therefore so are we."'
    He fooled a lot of people, no question.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,585

    nova said:

    Tory leadership race ‘where we are’ update.





    Surely we'll end up with the likes of Richard Littlejohn and Jeremy Clarkson in deradicalisation programmes?

    You'd be hard to find a group who spend more time professing hate for this country than middle-aged (or elderly now) male newspaper columnists.
    I pretty sure Corbyn will be arrested under this bonkers plan.

    Sunak is so desperate now you can actually smell it.
    Liz should propose a British First Amendment.

    She’s already told the police to stop policing people taking offence on Twitter, and start solving actual crimes.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,839
    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/aug/03/discovered-in-the-deep-the-snail-with-iron-armour

    OT but for light relief if nobody has remarked on this - a nice mollusc. Brian was never like this.

    BTW also a fine example of nominative determinism.
  • DriverDriver Posts: 4,963

    Driver said:

    Driver said:

    moonshine said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    moonshine said:

    As the vaccine programme has already shown us, the benefits of Brexit feedoms (or any freedoms) cannot be 'sought'; they happen. In that regard, they're a bit like lifeboats on an Ocean liner. You don't walk past them sneering and challenge the crew to find a use for them; you're just glad they're there.
    Vaccine roll-out ≠ a benefit of Brexit. We were perfectly at liberty to do our own thing while in the EU.
    You come across as silly saying this because you know perfectly well how it would have played out. Just admit that there have been some items in the plus column but you think there are far more negatives.
    That's simply wrong, and disregards the awkward squad relationship we always had with the EU as members. It would have depended entirely on the PM at the time.
    Had we not voted for Brexit and there been any realistic contender as PM other than Johnson than it’s very clear we have been in the eu procurement scheme. Starmer was making political hay about how reckless the govt was being even AFTER Brexit.

    It was a win in the Brexit column. As it turned out it had a fairly fleeting impact because of the extreme hesitation in 2021 to lift all restrictions after the win, and the silly unjustifiable reimposition of them upon omicron. But the uk vaccine procurement no doubt did save lives.
    There is a big plot hole in the "Brexit helped us with the vaccines" story. The UK would have most likely, like a couple of other EU members, decided to do it's own thing even tho part of the EU had we voted to Remain.
    Except we wouldn't have, as the the political pressure to show we were good Europeans would have been irresistible after a Remain vote.

    Which is obvious to anyone who was paying attention in 2020, who couldn't miss the amount of pressure there was to join the EU scheme even though we had left.
    That is what you want to believe.
    Backed up with evidence of having paid attention to our relationship with the EU for more than 30 years.

    Former Remainers saying "we could have done it anyway" are technically true, but massively miss the point. We wouldn't have.
    And your expertise in the pharma and healthcare industry is what? Do you gain your opinions on that from the Daily Express in the same way you do for your opinions on the EU?

    The UK is/was a leader in the world for pharmaceuticals. It is very highly likely that we would have "done our own thing", even with a Tory government of the old more sensible less loony variety in power. So sorry, you are talking swivelly-eyed bollox. You are just desperate to find an argument that justifies the stupidity of Brexit, but when the vaccine argument is held up to scrutiny it has more holes in it than a Jeffrey Archer plot.

    Keep taking the tablets. I must go and do some work
    Unreconciled former Remainers being quite so abusive does nothing but add wight to my arguent. HAND.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,191
    Sandpit said:

    nova said:

    Tory leadership race ‘where we are’ update.





    Surely we'll end up with the likes of Richard Littlejohn and Jeremy Clarkson in deradicalisation programmes?

    You'd be hard to find a group who spend more time professing hate for this country than middle-aged (or elderly now) male newspaper columnists.
    I pretty sure Corbyn will be arrested under this bonkers plan.

    Sunak is so desperate now you can actually smell it.
    Liz should propose a British First Amendment.

    She’s already told the police to stop policing people taking offence on Twitter, and start solving actual crimes.
    I think she's just left old tweets up to prove the point tbh - offence archeology is the province of bores.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,636
    edited August 2022
    Sandpit said:

    nova said:

    Tory leadership race ‘where we are’ update.





    Surely we'll end up with the likes of Richard Littlejohn and Jeremy Clarkson in deradicalisation programmes?

    You'd be hard to find a group who spend more time professing hate for this country than middle-aged (or elderly now) male newspaper columnists.
    I pretty sure Corbyn will be arrested under this bonkers plan.

    Sunak is so desperate now you can actually smell it.
    Liz should propose a British First Amendment.

    She’s already told the police to stop policing people taking offence on Twitter, and start solving actual crimes.
    It would contrast with Sunak's "Tough on thought crime. Tough on the causes of thought crime."
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,962
    IshmaelZ said:

    Tory leadership race ‘where we are’ update.




    Sunak's an airhead. I think I have detected a genuine unconscious bias in myself in that it took me 10 minutes to draw that conclusion whereas it would have been an instantaneous reaction if the text were swapped around.
    That's the trouble with political nerds, they're really terrible at the crass stuff and end up with everyone despising them. Truss believes that childish guff and fellow believers can sense that. Of course she may believe something diametrically opposed to it in one, two or three years time..
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,136
    tlg86 said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Yes, I was aware of that Truss fandom for Savile. Bit surprised it hasn't been raised before now.

    How is that tweet 'fandom'?

    People *liked* Saville, and he had successfully fought off allegations about the truth in court. Read those obituaries I posted from the day after she posted that tweet.

    If you want to go the other way, just look at Tom Watson's vile campaigns.
    Airing gushing public praise for a celeb isn't fandom iyo? Well there are serviceable alternatives, I suppose.
    You and I have very different definitions of 'gushing' and 'fandom', then.

    As I said, read the obituaries from the day after he died (the day after her tweet).
    Obituaries are slightly different though. They're a 'formal' thing with an etiquette of stressing the positives. The person writing them is usually just doing a job of work.
    Didn't stop people being angry at the way the BBC handled the passing of Phil Spector:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-55702855

    The first version on the breaking news story on the BBC News website carried the headline: "Talented but flawed producer Phil Spector dies aged 81".

    The BBC said the headline "did not meet our editorial standards".

    The text was quickly changed to: "Pop producer jailed for murder dies at 81."
    Rather illustrates my point. Even with an actual murder conviction the obituaries tried to be positive. So with Savile - no conviction for anything - that was probably even more the case.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    kinabalu said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    kinabalu said:

    moonshine said:

    kinabalu said:

    Yes, I was aware of that Truss fandom for Savile. Bit surprised it hasn't been raised before now.

    Because it’s moronic to think that tweet means anything? Are you suggesting that Truss knew Savile was a dirty necrophiliac paedo and still decided to give him a positive word upon his death?
    Course not. But it's a bit dim to say it means NOTHING or to not expect dirty tricks in election campaigns. To me it means she was oblivious to the rumours and dark aura around Jimmy Savile and - worse - is the sort of person who found him an attractive benign persona. This speaks to bad judgement. Not some sort of gamechanger - since there's far more important and relevant and recent evidence of her bad judgement - but, you know, it doesn't look great. Hence why, as I say, I'd have semi expected it to have been dug up and aired before now.
    Unusual to see you digging so assiduously in so deep a hole. Just search Jimmy Savile tributes and be amazed at the outpourings. Prince of Wales, DG BBC, bloody everyone. With, with hindsight, some notable exceptions - Downing Street kept very quiet. But he is a fellow Leeds local of Truss, and Always in good spirits is pretty restrained stuff. Nothing to see here.
    Maybe she flipped it out on autopilot because of the local link. We can't know. But I don't agree it's a total nothing. Not a big deal, sure, but neither a nothing. If we imagine the evidence for her bad judgement as a large wobbly cake this is a bit of sugar sprinkled on top.
    Sir Jimmy Savile's home city is putting aside three days to celebrate the performer's life, with fun, bling and tributes to his trademark wackiness.

    Just about everyone in Leeds has benefited from the millions he raised for local hospitals – or just being shunted around on the trolleys he pushed on his weekly stint as an NHS porter – and a homespun version of lying in state will start the ceremonies on Tuesday. Savile's 15 nephews and nieces have agreed to local pressure for his gold-coloured coffin to stand for a day in the Queen's hotel, close to the clubs where he started his career as a DJ.

    ...

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2011/nov/08/leeds-pays-tribute-jimmy-savile

    Read the rest of it too, and marvel.

    Liz was like a secret UK doubter in a Sunak premiership. No choice but outward conformity
  • kjhkjh Posts: 11,786

    moonshine said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    moonshine said:

    As the vaccine programme has already shown us, the benefits of Brexit feedoms (or any freedoms) cannot be 'sought'; they happen. In that regard, they're a bit like lifeboats on an Ocean liner. You don't walk past them sneering and challenge the crew to find a use for them; you're just glad they're there.
    Vaccine roll-out ≠ a benefit of Brexit. We were perfectly at liberty to do our own thing while in the EU.
    You come across as silly saying this because you know perfectly well how it would have played out. Just admit that there have been some items in the plus column but you think there are far more negatives.
    That's simply wrong, and disregards the awkward squad relationship we always had with the EU as members. It would have depended entirely on the PM at the time.
    Had we not voted for Brexit and there been any realistic contender as PM other than Johnson than it’s very clear we have been in the eu procurement scheme. Starmer was making political hay about how reckless the govt was being even AFTER Brexit.

    It was a win in the Brexit column. As it turned out it had a fairly fleeting impact because of the extreme hesitation in 2021 to lift all restrictions after the win, and the silly unjustifiable reimposition of them upon omicron. But the uk vaccine procurement no doubt did save lives.
    There is a big plot hole in the "Brexit helped us with the vaccines" story. The UK would have most likely, like a couple of other EU members, decided to do it's own thing even tho part of the EU had we voted to Remain.
    No, the vax story plot hole is that if it were not for Brexit, the EMA would still be (more-or-less) the MHRA.
    Indeed. I know people from the MHRA. It was an area we were genuinely "world beating" in, and genuinely enabled further inward investment in pharma and devices. Fatboi and his cronies really fucked that one up. Fuck business he said.
    My wife banned me posting stuff on this at the time because she didn't want me to breach any confidentiality. She was in charge of drug safety at one of the large Pharma companies. The whole thing was a disaster on many fronts. The Pharmas were pulling their hair out over NI because of the dual and contradictory regulations which meant provision of medicine was in doubt with desperate requests to the UK Govt to just make a decision. As you say the MHRA is a disaster and so much duplication and of course loss of expertise and employees to Europe. For instance in her company the Irish operation was due to move to the UK. That was stopped because it made no sense now that the safety element was split into to two separate operations. They are now moving much of their UK safety stuff to India because they now don't have the economy of scale so it is cheaper to do it there.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,839

    moonshine said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    moonshine said:

    As the vaccine programme has already shown us, the benefits of Brexit feedoms (or any freedoms) cannot be 'sought'; they happen. In that regard, they're a bit like lifeboats on an Ocean liner. You don't walk past them sneering and challenge the crew to find a use for them; you're just glad they're there.
    Vaccine roll-out ≠ a benefit of Brexit. We were perfectly at liberty to do our own thing while in the EU.
    You come across as silly saying this because you know perfectly well how it would have played out. Just admit that there have been some items in the plus column but you think there are far more negatives.
    That's simply wrong, and disregards the awkward squad relationship we always had with the EU as members. It would have depended entirely on the PM at the time.
    Had we not voted for Brexit and there been any realistic contender as PM other than Johnson than it’s very clear we have been in the eu procurement scheme. Starmer was making political hay about how reckless the govt was being even AFTER Brexit.

    It was a win in the Brexit column. As it turned out it had a fairly fleeting impact because of the extreme hesitation in 2021 to lift all restrictions after the win, and the silly unjustifiable reimposition of them upon omicron. But the uk vaccine procurement no doubt did save lives.
    There is a big plot hole in the "Brexit helped us with the vaccines" story. The UK would have most likely, like a couple of other EU members, decided to do it's own thing even tho part of the EU had we voted to Remain.
    No, the vax story plot hole is that if it were not for Brexit, the EMA would still be (more-or-less) the MHRA.
    Indeed. I know people from the MHRA. It was an area we were genuinely "world beating" in, and genuinely enabled further inward investment in pharma and devices. Fatboi and his cronies really fucked that one up. Fuck business he said.
    What happened to that national vaccine research/manufacturing centre, BTW, the one that was going to be a permanent positive legacy of covid? I've not been keeping my eye on that.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,719
    Sandpit said:

    nova said:

    Tory leadership race ‘where we are’ update.





    Surely we'll end up with the likes of Richard Littlejohn and Jeremy Clarkson in deradicalisation programmes?

    You'd be hard to find a group who spend more time professing hate for this country than middle-aged (or elderly now) male newspaper columnists.
    I pretty sure Corbyn will be arrested under this bonkers plan.

    Sunak is so desperate now you can actually smell it.
    Liz should propose a British First Amendment.

    She’s already told the police to stop policing people taking offence on Twitter, and start solving actual crimes.
    Sunak would respond with a proposal for a 2nd amendment.

  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,136
    Sandpit said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Yes, I was aware of that Truss fandom for Savile. Bit surprised it hasn't been raised before now.

    How is that tweet 'fandom'?

    People *liked* Saville, and he had successfully fought off allegations about the truth in court. Read those obituaries I posted from the day after she posted that tweet.

    If you want to go the other way, just look at Tom Watson's vile campaigns.
    Airing gushing public praise for a celeb isn't fandom iyo? Well there are serviceable alternatives, I suppose.
    You and I have very different definitions of 'gushing' and 'fandom', then.

    As I said, read the obituaries from the day after he died (the day after her tweet).
    Obituaries are slightly different though. They're a 'formal' thing with an etiquette of stressing the positives. The person writing them is usually just doing a job of work.
    If he’d been known to be a necrophilic paedophile on the day he’d died, you can bet the obituaries would have described him as “Entertainer turned monster”, rather than given him a hagiography.
    Yes. This is my point.
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    What is it about apparently sensible Tory leadership candidates that they think that it is better to go crazy and completely shred their image and reputation than to lose with dignity? First Hunt and now Sunak.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,839
    nova said:

    Tory leadership race ‘where we are’ update.





    Surely we'll end up with the likes of Richard Littlejohn and Jeremy Clarkson in deradicalisation programmes?

    You'd be hard to find a group who spend more time professing hate for this country than middle-aged (or elderly now) male newspaper columnists.
    Also a grammatical howler in that tweet. Never try to make a singular noun conform to a plural pronoun - find some other wording to get around it ("We make a great country" for instance).
  • kjh said:

    Driver said:

    moonshine said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    moonshine said:

    As the vaccine programme has already shown us, the benefits of Brexit feedoms (or any freedoms) cannot be 'sought'; they happen. In that regard, they're a bit like lifeboats on an Ocean liner. You don't walk past them sneering and challenge the crew to find a use for them; you're just glad they're there.
    Vaccine roll-out ≠ a benefit of Brexit. We were perfectly at liberty to do our own thing while in the EU.
    You come across as silly saying this because you know perfectly well how it would have played out. Just admit that there have been some items in the plus column but you think there are far more negatives.
    That's simply wrong, and disregards the awkward squad relationship we always had with the EU as members. It would have depended entirely on the PM at the time.
    Had we not voted for Brexit and there been any realistic contender as PM other than Johnson than it’s very clear we have been in the eu procurement scheme. Starmer was making political hay about how reckless the govt was being even AFTER Brexit.

    It was a win in the Brexit column. As it turned out it had a fairly fleeting impact because of the extreme hesitation in 2021 to lift all restrictions after the win, and the silly unjustifiable reimposition of them upon omicron. But the uk vaccine procurement no doubt did save lives.
    There is a big plot hole in the "Brexit helped us with the vaccines" story. The UK would have most likely, like a couple of other EU members, decided to do it's own thing even tho part of the EU had we voted to Remain.
    Except we wouldn't have, as the the political pressure to show we were good Europeans would have been irresistible after a Remain vote.

    Which is obvious to anyone who was paying attention in 2020, who couldn't miss the amount of pressure there was to join the EU scheme even though we had left.
    What nonsense. You are just making stuff up. We did lots of stuff independent of the EU while in the EU and as we had expertise in the area I don't think there is any chance we would have just followed the EU scheme.

    You are projecting your bias of those who wanted to remain as just being EU slaves. Most remainers don't think the EU is/was perfect, they just preferred it to leaving on the balance of benefits.
    Worth remembering that, had 2016 gone the other way, it would have sealed the UK's position as "with the EU, but a long way from its centre". That might have been a good position, it might not have been. But the idea that it would have been followed by a frantic flurry of Good Europeanism is for the birds.
  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 8,163
    edited August 2022
    alex_ said:

    What is it about apparently sensible Tory leadership candidates that they think that it is better to go crazy and completely shred their image and reputation than to lose with dignity? First Hunt and now Sunak.

    They have to pander to a band of old people (the selectorate) who are probably garrulous, bad tempered and have a rosy memory of the world of their youth and want it back again.
  • DavidL said:

    So, faster growth, record exports, full employment, higher wages. It's been a disaster right enough.

    You must live on a different planet from me. Sainsbury's had empty shelves yesterday and the day before. When I asked they just said that stuff had not arrived. With a wry smile the guy told me that they were getting used it :open_mouth:
    Even the Guardian gave up pretending that the supermarkets have empty shelves last year.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,822
    alex_ said:

    What is it about apparently sensible Tory leadership candidates that they think that it is better to go crazy and completely shred their image and reputation than to lose with dignity? First Hunt and now Sunak.

    Tory members.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,831

    DavidL said:

    So, faster growth, record exports, full employment, higher wages. It's been a disaster right enough.

    You must live on a different planet from me. Sainsbury's had empty shelves yesterday and the day before. When I asked they just said that stuff had not arrived. With a wry smile the guy told me that they were getting used it :open_mouth:
    To be honest that was just a wind up. Although those statements are factually true they are not the whole picture. The whole picture is that we are living in a world where supply trails have been massively disrupted by both Covid and then by the Russian invasion of Ukraine, where economic performance has been hugely disrupted as a result with a deep recesssion and then record growth, and where statistics are even more unreliable than normal. In the midst of this cacophony of noise there is, somewhere, a little tinkle made by Brexit but whether it is for good or ill will not be obvious for many years yet and very much depends on what we do with it.
  • DriverDriver Posts: 4,963

    kjh said:

    Driver said:

    moonshine said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    moonshine said:

    As the vaccine programme has already shown us, the benefits of Brexit feedoms (or any freedoms) cannot be 'sought'; they happen. In that regard, they're a bit like lifeboats on an Ocean liner. You don't walk past them sneering and challenge the crew to find a use for them; you're just glad they're there.
    Vaccine roll-out ≠ a benefit of Brexit. We were perfectly at liberty to do our own thing while in the EU.
    You come across as silly saying this because you know perfectly well how it would have played out. Just admit that there have been some items in the plus column but you think there are far more negatives.
    That's simply wrong, and disregards the awkward squad relationship we always had with the EU as members. It would have depended entirely on the PM at the time.
    Had we not voted for Brexit and there been any realistic contender as PM other than Johnson than it’s very clear we have been in the eu procurement scheme. Starmer was making political hay about how reckless the govt was being even AFTER Brexit.

    It was a win in the Brexit column. As it turned out it had a fairly fleeting impact because of the extreme hesitation in 2021 to lift all restrictions after the win, and the silly unjustifiable reimposition of them upon omicron. But the uk vaccine procurement no doubt did save lives.
    There is a big plot hole in the "Brexit helped us with the vaccines" story. The UK would have most likely, like a couple of other EU members, decided to do it's own thing even tho part of the EU had we voted to Remain.
    Except we wouldn't have, as the the political pressure to show we were good Europeans would have been irresistible after a Remain vote.

    Which is obvious to anyone who was paying attention in 2020, who couldn't miss the amount of pressure there was to join the EU scheme even though we had left.
    What nonsense. You are just making stuff up. We did lots of stuff independent of the EU while in the EU and as we had expertise in the area I don't think there is any chance we would have just followed the EU scheme.

    You are projecting your bias of those who wanted to remain as just being EU slaves. Most remainers don't think the EU is/was perfect, they just preferred it to leaving on the balance of benefits.
    Worth remembering that, had 2016 gone the other way, it would have sealed the UK's position as "with the EU, but a long way from its centre". That might have been a good position, it might not have been. But the idea that it would have been followed by a frantic flurry of Good Europeanism is for the birds.
    I think that's massively optimistic. Far more likely that it would have been seen in Brussels (and by the Eurofanatics in politics and the civil service) as an endorsement of wanting to be in - any objections to the EU's direction of travel would have been laughed at, dismissed with "well, you had the chance to leave".
  • alex_ said:

    What is it about apparently sensible Tory leadership candidates that they think that it is better to go crazy and completely shred their image and reputation than to lose with dignity? First Hunt and now Sunak.

    Tory members.
    That, and positive feedback.

    The louder the Conservative right gets, the more that the Conservative left shuffles off, so the louder the right gets...

    It's tempting to think "Trying a little bit of national populism won't hurt. I know my limits, and I'll stop before it gets out of control..."
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 8,380
    I'm not convinced that PB posts on an 11-year-old tweet from Truss about Savile are a game-changer, or indeed that the subject is of any interest at all. Mind you, I'm impressed that nobody has yet come up with "and don't forget Starmer - he failed to prosecute Savile....".
    Oh bugger, I've just done it.
  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 8,163
    Sandpit said:

    nova said:

    Tory leadership race ‘where we are’ update.





    Surely we'll end up with the likes of Richard Littlejohn and Jeremy Clarkson in deradicalisation programmes?

    You'd be hard to find a group who spend more time professing hate for this country than middle-aged (or elderly now) male newspaper columnists.
    I pretty sure Corbyn will be arrested under this bonkers plan.

    Sunak is so desperate now you can actually smell it.
    Liz should propose a British First Amendment.

    She’s already told the police to stop policing people taking offence on Twitter, and start solving actual crimes.
    Why not go the whole hog and change the Party's name to "Britain First"? It would at least be honest.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,636
    nova said:

    Tory leadership race ‘where we are’ update.





    Surely we'll end up with the likes of Richard Littlejohn and Jeremy Clarkson in deradicalisation programmes?

    You'd be hard to find a group who spend more time professing hate for this country than middle-aged (or elderly now) male newspaper columnists.
    - Mr Hitchens, I have reason to believe that you are guilty of hating the country.
    - I love this country. It's the people who run it I can't stand.
    - We can clear this up if you just confirm that you think our best days lie ahead.
    - I've never been more sure that Britain is finished.
    - You're nicked!
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    alex_ said:

    What is it about apparently sensible Tory leadership candidates that they think that it is better to go crazy and completely shred their image and reputation than to lose with dignity? First Hunt and now Sunak.

    Tory members.
    That, and positive feedback.

    The louder the Conservative right gets, the more that the Conservative left shuffles off, so the louder the right gets...

    It's tempting to think "Trying a little bit of national populism won't hurt. I know my limits, and I'll stop before it gets out of control..."
    The 1 time in 1000 when the expression "positive feedback" is used in its proper sense.
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518

    alex_ said:

    What is it about apparently sensible Tory leadership candidates that they think that it is better to go crazy and completely shred their image and reputation than to lose with dignity? First Hunt and now Sunak.

    They have to pander to a band of old people (the selectorate) who are probably garrulous, bad tempered and have a rosy memory of the world of their youth and want it back again.
    It’s one thing doing that if they have a chance of victory and it might tip a few crucial votes their way. But this is just shredding their image and reputation for nothing. I’m sure lots of initial Sunak supporters are now beginning to wonder if we haven’t dodged a bullet if what’s coming out now are his real views…
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 8,380
    edited August 2022
    And as for Sunak, the Prevent programme would have to be fucking huge, and absorb virtually all government spending, if he wanted all those who "vilify Britain" to be referred to it. Slagging off one's own country from time to time is an integral part of the British character, I would have thought, and is pretty widespread.

    Mind you, I can think of one esteemed fellow poster who may well be in favour of sanctioning those who showed a lack of patriotism, however transitory.
  • ohnotnowohnotnow Posts: 3,785

    That's reminded me...

    On the day I was due to have a telephone appointment I had to take the phone with me every time I needed a piss just in case the doctor phoned at that precise moment.

    Even worse here. Our GP's all use a shared number across the city that doesn't allow you to call back. So if you miss the call or, as I did recently, fat-finger your mobile and cut it off - you're screwed.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,567

    Sandpit said:

    nova said:

    Tory leadership race ‘where we are’ update.





    Surely we'll end up with the likes of Richard Littlejohn and Jeremy Clarkson in deradicalisation programmes?

    You'd be hard to find a group who spend more time professing hate for this country than middle-aged (or elderly now) male newspaper columnists.
    I pretty sure Corbyn will be arrested under this bonkers plan.

    Sunak is so desperate now you can actually smell it.
    Liz should propose a British First Amendment.

    She’s already told the police to stop policing people taking offence on Twitter, and start solving actual crimes.
    Sunak would respond with a proposal for a 2nd amendment.

    Sunak offering right to bear arms is a tad extreme!

    Although, allowing everyone over 50 the right to carry a taser, to be used freely on the noisy or annoying youth - that should swing it with the membership....

  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,831

    In other news, another gem from Corbyn's interview the other day::
    "Corbyn also suggested that he had been criticised over antisemitism because of his stance on the Middle East.

    “I have absolutely no doubt whatsoever that my clearly stated support for the right of Palestinian people to be able to live in peace free from occupation, free from being under siege as in Gaza, and for those living in refugee camps … played a factor in all this. Benjamin Netanyahu couldn’t wait to condemn me for my support for the Palestinian people.”"

    https://amp.theguardian.com/politics/2022/aug/02/jeremy-corbyn-urges-west-to-stop-arming-ukraine

    He isn't going to get back into the Labour Party, is he?

    No, but that will probably suit him fine. A little bit of martyrdom to finish off a deeply undistinguished career. For most of his time in Parliament the majority, even in his own party, just ignored his stupidity and ignorance. At least now they are paying some attention.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 11,786
    edited August 2022
    Driver said:

    kjh said:

    Driver said:

    moonshine said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    moonshine said:

    As the vaccine programme has already shown us, the benefits of Brexit feedoms (or any freedoms) cannot be 'sought'; they happen. In that regard, they're a bit like lifeboats on an Ocean liner. You don't walk past them sneering and challenge the crew to find a use for them; you're just glad they're there.
    Vaccine roll-out ≠ a benefit of Brexit. We were perfectly at liberty to do our own thing while in the EU.
    You come across as silly saying this because you know perfectly well how it would have played out. Just admit that there have been some items in the plus column but you think there are far more negatives.
    That's simply wrong, and disregards the awkward squad relationship we always had with the EU as members. It would have depended entirely on the PM at the time.
    Had we not voted for Brexit and there been any realistic contender as PM other than Johnson than it’s very clear we have been in the eu procurement scheme. Starmer was making political hay about how reckless the govt was being even AFTER Brexit.

    It was a win in the Brexit column. As it turned out it had a fairly fleeting impact because of the extreme hesitation in 2021 to lift all restrictions after the win, and the silly unjustifiable reimposition of them upon omicron. But the uk vaccine procurement no doubt did save lives.
    There is a big plot hole in the "Brexit helped us with the vaccines" story. The UK would have most likely, like a couple of other EU members, decided to do it's own thing even tho part of the EU had we voted to Remain.
    Except we wouldn't have, as the the political pressure to show we were good Europeans would have been irresistible after a Remain vote.

    Which is obvious to anyone who was paying attention in 2020, who couldn't miss the amount of pressure there was to join the EU scheme even though we had left.
    What nonsense. You are just making stuff up. We did lots of stuff independent of the EU while in the EU and as we had expertise in the area I don't think there is any chance we would have just followed the EU scheme.

    You are projecting your bias of those who wanted to remain as just being EU slaves. Most remainers don't think the EU is/was perfect, they just preferred it to leaving on the balance of benefits.
    Worth remembering that, had 2016 gone the other way, it would have sealed the UK's position as "with the EU, but a long way from its centre". That might have been a good position, it might not have been. But the idea that it would have been followed by a frantic flurry of Good Europeanism is for the birds.
    I think that's massively optimistic. Far more likely that it would have been seen in Brussels (and by the Eurofanatics in politics and the civil service) as an endorsement of wanting to be in - any objections to the EU's direction of travel would have been laughed at, dismissed with "well, you had the chance to leave".
    You just hate the EU so much you are willing to make up stuff that didn't happen. What next ' the EU would have blocked us from helping the Ukraine with our military expertise'

    Countries in the EU can make their own decisions on most things and do so. It is as if our parliament and PM didn't exist in all those bad years we were in the EU.
  • DriverDriver Posts: 4,963
    ohnotnow said:

    That's reminded me...

    On the day I was due to have a telephone appointment I had to take the phone with me every time I needed a piss just in case the doctor phoned at that precise moment.

    Even worse here. Our GP's all use a shared number across the city that doesn't allow you to call back. So if you miss the call or, as I did recently, fat-finger your mobile and cut it off - you're screwed.
    I did the same, fortunately the GP called me straight back.

    But it's just another way that phone calls are an inadequate substitute for actually seeing a doctor.
  • DriverDriver Posts: 4,963
    kjh said:

    Driver said:

    kjh said:

    Driver said:

    moonshine said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    moonshine said:

    As the vaccine programme has already shown us, the benefits of Brexit feedoms (or any freedoms) cannot be 'sought'; they happen. In that regard, they're a bit like lifeboats on an Ocean liner. You don't walk past them sneering and challenge the crew to find a use for them; you're just glad they're there.
    Vaccine roll-out ≠ a benefit of Brexit. We were perfectly at liberty to do our own thing while in the EU.
    You come across as silly saying this because you know perfectly well how it would have played out. Just admit that there have been some items in the plus column but you think there are far more negatives.
    That's simply wrong, and disregards the awkward squad relationship we always had with the EU as members. It would have depended entirely on the PM at the time.
    Had we not voted for Brexit and there been any realistic contender as PM other than Johnson than it’s very clear we have been in the eu procurement scheme. Starmer was making political hay about how reckless the govt was being even AFTER Brexit.

    It was a win in the Brexit column. As it turned out it had a fairly fleeting impact because of the extreme hesitation in 2021 to lift all restrictions after the win, and the silly unjustifiable reimposition of them upon omicron. But the uk vaccine procurement no doubt did save lives.
    There is a big plot hole in the "Brexit helped us with the vaccines" story. The UK would have most likely, like a couple of other EU members, decided to do it's own thing even tho part of the EU had we voted to Remain.
    Except we wouldn't have, as the the political pressure to show we were good Europeans would have been irresistible after a Remain vote.

    Which is obvious to anyone who was paying attention in 2020, who couldn't miss the amount of pressure there was to join the EU scheme even though we had left.
    What nonsense. You are just making stuff up. We did lots of stuff independent of the EU while in the EU and as we had expertise in the area I don't think there is any chance we would have just followed the EU scheme.

    You are projecting your bias of those who wanted to remain as just being EU slaves. Most remainers don't think the EU is/was perfect, they just preferred it to leaving on the balance of benefits.
    Worth remembering that, had 2016 gone the other way, it would have sealed the UK's position as "with the EU, but a long way from its centre". That might have been a good position, it might not have been. But the idea that it would have been followed by a frantic flurry of Good Europeanism is for the birds.
    I think that's massively optimistic. Far more likely that it would have been seen in Brussels (and by the Eurofanatics in politics and the civil service) as an endorsement of wanting to be in - any objections to the EU's direction of travel would have been laughed at, dismissed with "well, you had the chance to leave".
    You just hate the EU so much you are willing to make up stuff that didn't happen. What next ' the EU would have blocked us from helping the Ukraine with our military expertise'

    Countries in the EU can make their own decisions on most things and do so. It is as if our parliament and PM didn't exist in all those bad years we were in the EU.
    I don't hate the EU - it's perfectly sensible for some countries to be in it. But your description of my theory of what would have happened as "making up stuff that didn't happen" rather misses the point.
  • AlistairMAlistairM Posts: 2,005

    The rozzers can coitus off.

    Poor Sunil is also going to end up on the nonce jotter at this rate.

    Police should be able to monitor passengers who spend hours on the railway network in case they are pickpockets or sex offenders — or are in need of help — a chief constable has said.

    Lucy D’Orsi, the head of the British Transport Police, wants to track Oyster and bank cards to spot “anomalous behaviour” and focus police resources on it.

    She told Policing TV: “An example I gave recently is somebody who’s travelling the [London] Underground for six hours. So they tap in and they tap out six hours later? Why is that? Possibly vulnerable, possibly a pickpocket, possibly a predatory sex offender.”

    Police can ask Transport for London and Network Rail for specific travel information on a suspect but do not have access to generic information about passenger movements.

    D’Orsi said she wanted to look at using data in a “better way”. She added: “Another example is somebody who takes a train from London to Liverpool and gets the return train back. That’s not normal. That’s not what people do.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/police-want-travel-card-data-track-suspicious-rail-passengers-latest-cbh88zqkt

    BIB - Actually I've done similar journeys, clients and suppliers have busy lives, and the only time I could discuss stuff with them was on a train journey.

    God help the trainspotters.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    The rozzers can coitus off.

    Poor Sunil is also going to end up on the nonce jotter at this rate.

    Police should be able to monitor passengers who spend hours on the railway network in case they are pickpockets or sex offenders — or are in need of help — a chief constable has said.

    Lucy D’Orsi, the head of the British Transport Police, wants to track Oyster and bank cards to spot “anomalous behaviour” and focus police resources on it.

    She told Policing TV: “An example I gave recently is somebody who’s travelling the [London] Underground for six hours. So they tap in and they tap out six hours later? Why is that? Possibly vulnerable, possibly a pickpocket, possibly a predatory sex offender.”

    Police can ask Transport for London and Network Rail for specific travel information on a suspect but do not have access to generic information about passenger movements.

    D’Orsi said she wanted to look at using data in a “better way”. She added: “Another example is somebody who takes a train from London to Liverpool and gets the return train back. That’s not normal. That’s not what people do.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/police-want-travel-card-data-track-suspicious-rail-passengers-latest-cbh88zqkt

    BIB - Actually I've done similar journeys, clients and suppliers have busy lives, and the only time I could discuss stuff with them was on a train journey.

    Suppliers?

    Are you that guy off Layer Cake?
  • The rozzers can coitus off.

    Poor Sunil is also going to end up on the nonce jotter at this rate.

    Police should be able to monitor passengers who spend hours on the railway network in case they are pickpockets or sex offenders — or are in need of help — a chief constable has said.

    Lucy D’Orsi, the head of the British Transport Police, wants to track Oyster and bank cards to spot “anomalous behaviour” and focus police resources on it.

    She told Policing TV: “An example I gave recently is somebody who’s travelling the [London] Underground for six hours. So they tap in and they tap out six hours later? Why is that? Possibly vulnerable, possibly a pickpocket, possibly a predatory sex offender.”

    Police can ask Transport for London and Network Rail for specific travel information on a suspect but do not have access to generic information about passenger movements.

    D’Orsi said she wanted to look at using data in a “better way”. She added: “Another example is somebody who takes a train from London to Liverpool and gets the return train back. That’s not normal. That’s not what people do.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/police-want-travel-card-data-track-suspicious-rail-passengers-latest-cbh88zqkt

    BIB - Actually I've done similar journeys, clients and suppliers have busy lives, and the only time I could discuss stuff with them was on a train journey.

    A schoolmate once had to entertain a cousin visiting London from somewhere 'up north'. He offered to tahe him to all the sights but it turned out all the guy wanted to do was ride the Underground. He was particularly fond of the Circle line. It was utter tedium for my friend, but endless hours of fun for the cousin.

    They would surely have been arrested under these insane proposals.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,927
    edited August 2022

    HYUFD said:

    So Kansas has voted pro abortion rights:

    https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2022/08/02/us/elections/results-kansas-abortion-amendment.html

    Which means that repealing RvW is working as it should do and perhaps not how some of the GOP expected.

    Yes, the ruling was correct to leave it to the states.

    However for pro life activists even if only 1 or 2 states like Alabama and Mississippi ban abortion that would still be better than the situation under Roe v Wade where abortion on demand was effectively legal US wide.

    They don't really care if the GOP fail to retake Congress and the White House and lose some governors races and state legislatures in the process due to the pro choice backlash
    They'll certainly care in Congress passes some pro choice legislation in that scenario.

    It really is not in the interests of the pro lifers for the GOP to be either obsessional or extreme about abortion.
    Congress cannot pass pro choice legislation making abortion legal nationwide again now without this SC striking it down as unconstitutional. Otherwise it requires the Democrats to win the Presidency, 2/3 of both Chambers of Congress and most state legislatures to pass a constitutional amendment for a nationwide right to abortion.

    So it very much is in the interests of pro lifers to keep the GOP pro life actually as even if the GOP lost the Presidency and Congress more GOP controlled states would have pro life legislation than when the GOP were in charge in DC and Roe v Wade still stood

  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,358
    kinabalu said:

    Sandpit said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Yes, I was aware of that Truss fandom for Savile. Bit surprised it hasn't been raised before now.

    How is that tweet 'fandom'?

    People *liked* Saville, and he had successfully fought off allegations about the truth in court. Read those obituaries I posted from the day after she posted that tweet.

    If you want to go the other way, just look at Tom Watson's vile campaigns.
    Airing gushing public praise for a celeb isn't fandom iyo? Well there are serviceable alternatives, I suppose.
    You and I have very different definitions of 'gushing' and 'fandom', then.

    As I said, read the obituaries from the day after he died (the day after her tweet).
    Obituaries are slightly different though. They're a 'formal' thing with an etiquette of stressing the positives. The person writing them is usually just doing a job of work.
    If he’d been known to be a necrophilic paedophile on the day he’d died, you can bet the obituaries would have described him as “Entertainer turned monster”, rather than given him a hagiography.
    Yes. This is my point.
    "Now then, now then, boys and girls. Just because she's dead, it doesn't mean she can't have some fun."
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,719

    The rozzers can coitus off.

    Poor Sunil is also going to end up on the nonce jotter at this rate.

    Police should be able to monitor passengers who spend hours on the railway network in case they are pickpockets or sex offenders — or are in need of help — a chief constable has said.

    Lucy D’Orsi, the head of the British Transport Police, wants to track Oyster and bank cards to spot “anomalous behaviour” and focus police resources on it.

    She told Policing TV: “An example I gave recently is somebody who’s travelling the [London] Underground for six hours. So they tap in and they tap out six hours later? Why is that? Possibly vulnerable, possibly a pickpocket, possibly a predatory sex offender.”

    Police can ask Transport for London and Network Rail for specific travel information on a suspect but do not have access to generic information about passenger movements.

    D’Orsi said she wanted to look at using data in a “better way”. She added: “Another example is somebody who takes a train from London to Liverpool and gets the return train back. That’s not normal. That’s not what people do.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/police-want-travel-card-data-track-suspicious-rail-passengers-latest-cbh88zqkt

    BIB - Actually I've done similar journeys, clients and suppliers have busy lives, and the only time I could discuss stuff with them was on a train journey.

    A schoolmate once had to entertain a cousin visiting London from somewhere 'up north'. He offered to tahe him to all the sights but it turned out all the guy wanted to do was ride the Underground. He was particularly fond of the Circle line. It was utter tedium for my friend, but endless hours of fun for the cousin.

    They would surely have been arrested under these insane proposals.
    They'll be arresting thousands this winter as old people travel all day on public transport to keep warm.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,296
    KARI LAKE! KARI LAKE!
  • DriverDriver Posts: 4,963

    The rozzers can coitus off.

    Poor Sunil is also going to end up on the nonce jotter at this rate.

    Police should be able to monitor passengers who spend hours on the railway network in case they are pickpockets or sex offenders — or are in need of help — a chief constable has said.

    Lucy D’Orsi, the head of the British Transport Police, wants to track Oyster and bank cards to spot “anomalous behaviour” and focus police resources on it.

    She told Policing TV: “An example I gave recently is somebody who’s travelling the [London] Underground for six hours. So they tap in and they tap out six hours later? Why is that? Possibly vulnerable, possibly a pickpocket, possibly a predatory sex offender.”

    Police can ask Transport for London and Network Rail for specific travel information on a suspect but do not have access to generic information about passenger movements.

    D’Orsi said she wanted to look at using data in a “better way”. She added: “Another example is somebody who takes a train from London to Liverpool and gets the return train back. That’s not normal. That’s not what people do.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/police-want-travel-card-data-track-suspicious-rail-passengers-latest-cbh88zqkt

    BIB - Actually I've done similar journeys, clients and suppliers have busy lives, and the only time I could discuss stuff with them was on a train journey.

    I'd never heard of Policing TV, so I googled it. Apparently their slogan is "global progressive policing" - god alone knows what's "progressive" about this nonsense.
  • On topic, surely the polls won't be any kind of reliable guide until the Leadership election is over and we have had a few months of government under the new Leader?

  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,061

    The rozzers can coitus off.

    Poor Sunil is also going to end up on the nonce jotter at this rate.

    Police should be able to monitor passengers who spend hours on the railway network in case they are pickpockets or sex offenders — or are in need of help — a chief constable has said.

    Lucy D’Orsi, the head of the British Transport Police, wants to track Oyster and bank cards to spot “anomalous behaviour” and focus police resources on it.

    She told Policing TV: “An example I gave recently is somebody who’s travelling the [London] Underground for six hours. So they tap in and they tap out six hours later? Why is that? Possibly vulnerable, possibly a pickpocket, possibly a predatory sex offender.”

    Police can ask Transport for London and Network Rail for specific travel information on a suspect but do not have access to generic information about passenger movements.

    D’Orsi said she wanted to look at using data in a “better way”. She added: “Another example is somebody who takes a train from London to Liverpool and gets the return train back. That’s not normal. That’s not what people do.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/police-want-travel-card-data-track-suspicious-rail-passengers-latest-cbh88zqkt

    BIB - Actually I've done similar journeys, clients and suppliers have busy lives, and the only time I could discuss stuff with them was on a train journey.

    They can indeed coitus off. 'Thats not normal'..... and? Plod trying to criminalise eccentricity, hobbies, doing things just because. Fuckers.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,719
    edited August 2022

    nova said:

    Tory leadership race ‘where we are’ update.





    Surely we'll end up with the likes of Richard Littlejohn and Jeremy Clarkson in deradicalisation programmes?

    You'd be hard to find a group who spend more time professing hate for this country than middle-aged (or elderly now) male newspaper columnists.
    - Mr Hitchens, I have reason to believe that you are guilty of hating the country.
    - I love this country. It's the people who run it I can't stand.
    - We can clear this up if you just confirm that you think our best days lie ahead.
    - I've never been more sure that Britain is finished.
    - You're nicked!
    Well, he's always complaining that you never see the police these days.
  • IshmaelZ said:

    The rozzers can coitus off.

    Poor Sunil is also going to end up on the nonce jotter at this rate.

    Police should be able to monitor passengers who spend hours on the railway network in case they are pickpockets or sex offenders — or are in need of help — a chief constable has said.

    Lucy D’Orsi, the head of the British Transport Police, wants to track Oyster and bank cards to spot “anomalous behaviour” and focus police resources on it.

    She told Policing TV: “An example I gave recently is somebody who’s travelling the [London] Underground for six hours. So they tap in and they tap out six hours later? Why is that? Possibly vulnerable, possibly a pickpocket, possibly a predatory sex offender.”

    Police can ask Transport for London and Network Rail for specific travel information on a suspect but do not have access to generic information about passenger movements.

    D’Orsi said she wanted to look at using data in a “better way”. She added: “Another example is somebody who takes a train from London to Liverpool and gets the return train back. That’s not normal. That’s not what people do.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/police-want-travel-card-data-track-suspicious-rail-passengers-latest-cbh88zqkt

    BIB - Actually I've done similar journeys, clients and suppliers have busy lives, and the only time I could discuss stuff with them was on a train journey.

    Suppliers?

    Are you that guy off Layer Cake?
    Well I am often described, professionally, as a fixer and a closer.

    I am also regularly referred to as a consigliere.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,370

    The rozzers can coitus off.

    Poor Sunil is also going to end up on the nonce jotter at this rate.

    Police should be able to monitor passengers who spend hours on the railway network in case they are pickpockets or sex offenders — or are in need of help — a chief constable has said.

    Lucy D’Orsi, the head of the British Transport Police, wants to track Oyster and bank cards to spot “anomalous behaviour” and focus police resources on it.

    She told Policing TV: “An example I gave recently is somebody who’s travelling the [London] Underground for six hours. So they tap in and they tap out six hours later? Why is that? Possibly vulnerable, possibly a pickpocket, possibly a predatory sex offender.”

    Police can ask Transport for London and Network Rail for specific travel information on a suspect but do not have access to generic information about passenger movements.

    D’Orsi said she wanted to look at using data in a “better way”. She added: “Another example is somebody who takes a train from London to Liverpool and gets the return train back. That’s not normal. That’s not what people do.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/police-want-travel-card-data-track-suspicious-rail-passengers-latest-cbh88zqkt

    BIB - Actually I've done similar journeys, clients and suppliers have busy lives, and the only time I could discuss stuff with them was on a train journey.

    A schoolmate once had to entertain a cousin visiting London from somewhere 'up north'. He offered to tahe him to all the sights but it turned out all the guy wanted to do was ride the Underground. He was particularly fond of the Circle line. It was utter tedium for my friend, but endless hours of fun for the cousin.

    They would surely have been arrested under these insane proposals.
    They'll be arresting thousands this winter as old people travel all day on public transport to keep warm.
    When we were down in London 2 weeks ago we did the Elizabeth line -> Liverpool Street to Paddington, Paddington to Abbey Wood, Abbey Wood to Barbican - because

    1) we could
    2) we had time to kill
    3) it was cooler than the other options given the temperature that day.
  • ohnotnowohnotnow Posts: 3,785
    Carnyx said:

    moonshine said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    moonshine said:

    As the vaccine programme has already shown us, the benefits of Brexit feedoms (or any freedoms) cannot be 'sought'; they happen. In that regard, they're a bit like lifeboats on an Ocean liner. You don't walk past them sneering and challenge the crew to find a use for them; you're just glad they're there.
    Vaccine roll-out ≠ a benefit of Brexit. We were perfectly at liberty to do our own thing while in the EU.
    You come across as silly saying this because you know perfectly well how it would have played out. Just admit that there have been some items in the plus column but you think there are far more negatives.
    That's simply wrong, and disregards the awkward squad relationship we always had with the EU as members. It would have depended entirely on the PM at the time.
    Had we not voted for Brexit and there been any realistic contender as PM other than Johnson than it’s very clear we have been in the eu procurement scheme. Starmer was making political hay about how reckless the govt was being even AFTER Brexit.

    It was a win in the Brexit column. As it turned out it had a fairly fleeting impact because of the extreme hesitation in 2021 to lift all restrictions after the win, and the silly unjustifiable reimposition of them upon omicron. But the uk vaccine procurement no doubt did save lives.
    There is a big plot hole in the "Brexit helped us with the vaccines" story. The UK would have most likely, like a couple of other EU members, decided to do it's own thing even tho part of the EU had we voted to Remain.
    No, the vax story plot hole is that if it were not for Brexit, the EMA would still be (more-or-less) the MHRA.
    Indeed. I know people from the MHRA. It was an area we were genuinely "world beating" in, and genuinely enabled further inward investment in pharma and devices. Fatboi and his cronies really fucked that one up. Fuck business he said.
    What happened to that national vaccine research/manufacturing centre, BTW, the one that was going to be a permanent positive legacy of covid? I've not been keeping my eye on that.
    I think it's been sold off (assuming this is the same place)

    https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-oxfordshire-61011189

  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,927

    So Kansas has voted pro abortion rights:

    https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2022/08/02/us/elections/results-kansas-abortion-amendment.html

    Which means that repealing RvW is working as it should do and perhaps not how some of the GOP expected.

    The government interfering with women's bodies crowd were absolutely smashed in that vote. 59-41 in a State that Trump won in 2020 by 56-42.
    Less than 50% in Kansas wanted abortion to be mostly illegal.

    In Arkansas by contrast 60% want it to be mostly illegal and in Mississippi 59% want it to be mostly illegal

    https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/religious-landscape-study/compare/views-about-abortion/by/state/
  • eekeek Posts: 28,370
    https://twitter.com/jdpoc/status/1554774013716467715

    John O'Connell
    @jdpoc
    ·
    1m
    THIS DAY in 1968, Franklin was introduced to Charlie Brown in #Peanuts', the world’s most popular strip cartoon.’




    John O'Connell
    @jdpoc
    ·
    47s
    Schultz was threatened and even blackmailed by various newspapers, syndicators and publishing companies for daring to have a black cartoon character.

    He told them to print it as it was, or not print it at all.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,361

    The rozzers can coitus off.

    Poor Sunil is also going to end up on the nonce jotter at this rate.

    Police should be able to monitor passengers who spend hours on the railway network in case they are pickpockets or sex offenders — or are in need of help — a chief constable has said.

    Lucy D’Orsi, the head of the British Transport Police, wants to track Oyster and bank cards to spot “anomalous behaviour” and focus police resources on it.

    She told Policing TV: “An example I gave recently is somebody who’s travelling the [London] Underground for six hours. So they tap in and they tap out six hours later? Why is that? Possibly vulnerable, possibly a pickpocket, possibly a predatory sex offender.”

    Police can ask Transport for London and Network Rail for specific travel information on a suspect but do not have access to generic information about passenger movements.

    D’Orsi said she wanted to look at using data in a “better way”. She added: “Another example is somebody who takes a train from London to Liverpool and gets the return train back. That’s not normal. That’s not what people do.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/police-want-travel-card-data-track-suspicious-rail-passengers-latest-cbh88zqkt

    BIB - Actually I've done similar journeys, clients and suppliers have busy lives, and the only time I could discuss stuff with them was on a train journey.

    A schoolmate once had to entertain a cousin visiting London from somewhere 'up north'. He offered to tahe him to all the sights but it turned out all the guy wanted to do was ride the Underground. He was particularly fond of the Circle line. It was utter tedium for my friend, but endless hours of fun for the cousin.

    They would surely have been arrested under these insane proposals.
    My brother did some sort of challenge of trying to ride the entire Underground network in a single day.

    Anyone a little bit unusual shouldn't have to put up with police harassment.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,927
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,719

    Media Guido
    @MediaGuido
    ·
    23m
    You can sense the palpable despair of most of the broadsheet punditry as it dawns on them that Liz Truss is in all likelihood going to be Prime Minister and will probably go on to smash Keir Starmer in the general election.
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 8,727

    The rozzers can coitus off.

    Poor Sunil is also going to end up on the nonce jotter at this rate.

    Police should be able to monitor passengers who spend hours on the railway network in case they are pickpockets or sex offenders — or are in need of help — a chief constable has said.

    Lucy D’Orsi, the head of the British Transport Police, wants to track Oyster and bank cards to spot “anomalous behaviour” and focus police resources on it.

    She told Policing TV: “An example I gave recently is somebody who’s travelling the [London] Underground for six hours. So they tap in and they tap out six hours later? Why is that? Possibly vulnerable, possibly a pickpocket, possibly a predatory sex offender.”

    Police can ask Transport for London and Network Rail for specific travel information on a suspect but do not have access to generic information about passenger movements.

    D’Orsi said she wanted to look at using data in a “better way”. She added: “Another example is somebody who takes a train from London to Liverpool and gets the return train back. That’s not normal. That’s not what people do.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/police-want-travel-card-data-track-suspicious-rail-passengers-latest-cbh88zqkt

    BIB - Actually I've done similar journeys, clients and suppliers have busy lives, and the only time I could discuss stuff with them was on a train journey.

    Good luck getting that through GDPR. Or did we ditch that?
  • eekeek Posts: 28,370
    Selebian said:

    The rozzers can coitus off.

    Poor Sunil is also going to end up on the nonce jotter at this rate.

    Police should be able to monitor passengers who spend hours on the railway network in case they are pickpockets or sex offenders — or are in need of help — a chief constable has said.

    Lucy D’Orsi, the head of the British Transport Police, wants to track Oyster and bank cards to spot “anomalous behaviour” and focus police resources on it.

    She told Policing TV: “An example I gave recently is somebody who’s travelling the [London] Underground for six hours. So they tap in and they tap out six hours later? Why is that? Possibly vulnerable, possibly a pickpocket, possibly a predatory sex offender.”

    Police can ask Transport for London and Network Rail for specific travel information on a suspect but do not have access to generic information about passenger movements.

    D’Orsi said she wanted to look at using data in a “better way”. She added: “Another example is somebody who takes a train from London to Liverpool and gets the return train back. That’s not normal. That’s not what people do.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/police-want-travel-card-data-track-suspicious-rail-passengers-latest-cbh88zqkt

    BIB - Actually I've done similar journeys, clients and suppliers have busy lives, and the only time I could discuss stuff with them was on a train journey.

    Good luck getting that through GDPR. Or did we ditch that?
    I can see it working with Oyster Cards - way, way more complex once you start looking at an Apple Watch payment....
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,061
    edited August 2022

    The rozzers can coitus off.

    Poor Sunil is also going to end up on the nonce jotter at this rate.

    Police should be able to monitor passengers who spend hours on the railway network in case they are pickpockets or sex offenders — or are in need of help — a chief constable has said.

    Lucy D’Orsi, the head of the British Transport Police, wants to track Oyster and bank cards to spot “anomalous behaviour” and focus police resources on it.

    She told Policing TV: “An example I gave recently is somebody who’s travelling the [London] Underground for six hours. So they tap in and they tap out six hours later? Why is that? Possibly vulnerable, possibly a pickpocket, possibly a predatory sex offender.”

    Police can ask Transport for London and Network Rail for specific travel information on a suspect but do not have access to generic information about passenger movements.

    D’Orsi said she wanted to look at using data in a “better way”. She added: “Another example is somebody who takes a train from London to Liverpool and gets the return train back. That’s not normal. That’s not what people do.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/police-want-travel-card-data-track-suspicious-rail-passengers-latest-cbh88zqkt

    BIB - Actually I've done similar journeys, clients and suppliers have busy lives, and the only time I could discuss stuff with them was on a train journey.

    A schoolmate once had to entertain a cousin visiting London from somewhere 'up north'. He offered to tahe him to all the sights but it turned out all the guy wanted to do was ride the Underground. He was particularly fond of the Circle line. It was utter tedium for my friend, but endless hours of fun for the cousin.

    They would surely have been arrested under these insane proposals.
    My brother did some sort of challenge of trying to ride the entire Underground network in a single day.

    Anyone a little bit unusual shouldn't have to put up with police harassment.
    Quite. Thats all that needs saying really
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 8,727

    I'm not convinced that PB posts on an 11-year-old tweet from Truss about Savile are a game-changer, or indeed that the subject is of any interest at all. Mind you, I'm impressed that nobody has yet come up with "and don't forget Starmer - he failed to prosecute Savile....".
    Oh bugger, I've just done it.

    Indeed. Just shows she really is the new Thatcher :wink:

    (the criticisms of Thatcher's involvement with Savile being just as out there unless she was aware of issues at the time)
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,061
    HYUFD said:
    Maricopa county left to report by any chance?
  • DriverDriver Posts: 4,963

    On topic, surely the polls won't be any kind of reliable guide until the Leadership election is over and we have had a few months of government under the new Leader?

    And polling's always more unreliable in the summer, isn't it, with people going on holiday?
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,361

    The rozzers can coitus off.

    Poor Sunil is also going to end up on the nonce jotter at this rate.

    Police should be able to monitor passengers who spend hours on the railway network in case they are pickpockets or sex offenders — or are in need of help — a chief constable has said.

    Lucy D’Orsi, the head of the British Transport Police, wants to track Oyster and bank cards to spot “anomalous behaviour” and focus police resources on it.

    She told Policing TV: “An example I gave recently is somebody who’s travelling the [London] Underground for six hours. So they tap in and they tap out six hours later? Why is that? Possibly vulnerable, possibly a pickpocket, possibly a predatory sex offender.”

    Police can ask Transport for London and Network Rail for specific travel information on a suspect but do not have access to generic information about passenger movements.

    D’Orsi said she wanted to look at using data in a “better way”. She added: “Another example is somebody who takes a train from London to Liverpool and gets the return train back. That’s not normal. That’s not what people do.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/police-want-travel-card-data-track-suspicious-rail-passengers-latest-cbh88zqkt

    BIB - Actually I've done similar journeys, clients and suppliers have busy lives, and the only time I could discuss stuff with them was on a train journey.

    I've done a similar journey, albeit over a smaller distance, as a result of a misunderstanding.

    The last thing I would need would be having to prove to the police it was entirely innocent and nothing to do with the delivery of narcotics.
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 8,727
    edited August 2022
    Driver said:
    MidExPro is also apt, particularly given they failed to pay the players around ten years ago (was it?)


    Edit: At least the estate agent isn't run by Fred and Rose. That's something. Not much. But something...
  • DriverDriver Posts: 4,963

    HYUFD said:
    Maricopa county left to report by any chance?
    89k votes left in Maricopa, but Taylor Robson only leads 46-45 there so far.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 11,786
    Driver said:

    kjh said:

    Driver said:

    kjh said:

    Driver said:

    moonshine said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    moonshine said:

    As the vaccine programme has already shown us, the benefits of Brexit feedoms (or any freedoms) cannot be 'sought'; they happen. In that regard, they're a bit like lifeboats on an Ocean liner. You don't walk past them sneering and challenge the crew to find a use for them; you're just glad they're there.
    Vaccine roll-out ≠ a benefit of Brexit. We were perfectly at liberty to do our own thing while in the EU.
    You come across as silly saying this because you know perfectly well how it would have played out. Just admit that there have been some items in the plus column but you think there are far more negatives.
    That's simply wrong, and disregards the awkward squad relationship we always had with the EU as members. It would have depended entirely on the PM at the time.
    Had we not voted for Brexit and there been any realistic contender as PM other than Johnson than it’s very clear we have been in the eu procurement scheme. Starmer was making political hay about how reckless the govt was being even AFTER Brexit.

    It was a win in the Brexit column. As it turned out it had a fairly fleeting impact because of the extreme hesitation in 2021 to lift all restrictions after the win, and the silly unjustifiable reimposition of them upon omicron. But the uk vaccine procurement no doubt did save lives.
    There is a big plot hole in the "Brexit helped us with the vaccines" story. The UK would have most likely, like a couple of other EU members, decided to do it's own thing even tho part of the EU had we voted to Remain.
    Except we wouldn't have, as the the political pressure to show we were good Europeans would have been irresistible after a Remain vote.

    Which is obvious to anyone who was paying attention in 2020, who couldn't miss the amount of pressure there was to join the EU scheme even though we had left.
    What nonsense. You are just making stuff up. We did lots of stuff independent of the EU while in the EU and as we had expertise in the area I don't think there is any chance we would have just followed the EU scheme.

    You are projecting your bias of those who wanted to remain as just being EU slaves. Most remainers don't think the EU is/was perfect, they just preferred it to leaving on the balance of benefits.
    Worth remembering that, had 2016 gone the other way, it would have sealed the UK's position as "with the EU, but a long way from its centre". That might have been a good position, it might not have been. But the idea that it would have been followed by a frantic flurry of Good Europeanism is for the birds.
    I think that's massively optimistic. Far more likely that it would have been seen in Brussels (and by the Eurofanatics in politics and the civil service) as an endorsement of wanting to be in - any objections to the EU's direction of travel would have been laughed at, dismissed with "well, you had the chance to leave".
    You just hate the EU so much you are willing to make up stuff that didn't happen. What next ' the EU would have blocked us from helping the Ukraine with our military expertise'

    Countries in the EU can make their own decisions on most things and do so. It is as if our parliament and PM didn't exist in all those bad years we were in the EU.
    I don't hate the EU - it's perfectly sensible for some countries to be in it. But your description of my theory of what would have happened as "making up stuff that didn't happen" rather misses the point.
    @driver I think I was being a bit combative with my replies to you for which I apologize.
  • DriverDriver Posts: 4,963
    kjh said:

    Driver said:

    kjh said:

    Driver said:

    kjh said:

    Driver said:

    moonshine said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    moonshine said:

    As the vaccine programme has already shown us, the benefits of Brexit feedoms (or any freedoms) cannot be 'sought'; they happen. In that regard, they're a bit like lifeboats on an Ocean liner. You don't walk past them sneering and challenge the crew to find a use for them; you're just glad they're there.
    Vaccine roll-out ≠ a benefit of Brexit. We were perfectly at liberty to do our own thing while in the EU.
    You come across as silly saying this because you know perfectly well how it would have played out. Just admit that there have been some items in the plus column but you think there are far more negatives.
    That's simply wrong, and disregards the awkward squad relationship we always had with the EU as members. It would have depended entirely on the PM at the time.
    Had we not voted for Brexit and there been any realistic contender as PM other than Johnson than it’s very clear we have been in the eu procurement scheme. Starmer was making political hay about how reckless the govt was being even AFTER Brexit.

    It was a win in the Brexit column. As it turned out it had a fairly fleeting impact because of the extreme hesitation in 2021 to lift all restrictions after the win, and the silly unjustifiable reimposition of them upon omicron. But the uk vaccine procurement no doubt did save lives.
    There is a big plot hole in the "Brexit helped us with the vaccines" story. The UK would have most likely, like a couple of other EU members, decided to do it's own thing even tho part of the EU had we voted to Remain.
    Except we wouldn't have, as the the political pressure to show we were good Europeans would have been irresistible after a Remain vote.

    Which is obvious to anyone who was paying attention in 2020, who couldn't miss the amount of pressure there was to join the EU scheme even though we had left.
    What nonsense. You are just making stuff up. We did lots of stuff independent of the EU while in the EU and as we had expertise in the area I don't think there is any chance we would have just followed the EU scheme.

    You are projecting your bias of those who wanted to remain as just being EU slaves. Most remainers don't think the EU is/was perfect, they just preferred it to leaving on the balance of benefits.
    Worth remembering that, had 2016 gone the other way, it would have sealed the UK's position as "with the EU, but a long way from its centre". That might have been a good position, it might not have been. But the idea that it would have been followed by a frantic flurry of Good Europeanism is for the birds.
    I think that's massively optimistic. Far more likely that it would have been seen in Brussels (and by the Eurofanatics in politics and the civil service) as an endorsement of wanting to be in - any objections to the EU's direction of travel would have been laughed at, dismissed with "well, you had the chance to leave".
    You just hate the EU so much you are willing to make up stuff that didn't happen. What next ' the EU would have blocked us from helping the Ukraine with our military expertise'

    Countries in the EU can make their own decisions on most things and do so. It is as if our parliament and PM didn't exist in all those bad years we were in the EU.
    I don't hate the EU - it's perfectly sensible for some countries to be in it. But your description of my theory of what would have happened as "making up stuff that didn't happen" rather misses the point.
    @driver I think I was being a bit combative with my replies to you for which I apologize.
    No worries, I accept :)
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 8,727
    eek said:

    Selebian said:

    The rozzers can coitus off.

    Poor Sunil is also going to end up on the nonce jotter at this rate.

    Police should be able to monitor passengers who spend hours on the railway network in case they are pickpockets or sex offenders — or are in need of help — a chief constable has said.

    Lucy D’Orsi, the head of the British Transport Police, wants to track Oyster and bank cards to spot “anomalous behaviour” and focus police resources on it.

    She told Policing TV: “An example I gave recently is somebody who’s travelling the [London] Underground for six hours. So they tap in and they tap out six hours later? Why is that? Possibly vulnerable, possibly a pickpocket, possibly a predatory sex offender.”

    Police can ask Transport for London and Network Rail for specific travel information on a suspect but do not have access to generic information about passenger movements.

    D’Orsi said she wanted to look at using data in a “better way”. She added: “Another example is somebody who takes a train from London to Liverpool and gets the return train back. That’s not normal. That’s not what people do.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/police-want-travel-card-data-track-suspicious-rail-passengers-latest-cbh88zqkt

    BIB - Actually I've done similar journeys, clients and suppliers have busy lives, and the only time I could discuss stuff with them was on a train journey.

    Good luck getting that through GDPR. Or did we ditch that?
    I can see it working with Oyster Cards - way, way more complex once you start looking at an Apple Watch payment....
    The analysis, fine. But passing on the data to police? I can't see the legal basis for that, given that the vast majority are likely to have reasons for behaving 'oddly' that are not illegal.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,822

    The rozzers can coitus off.

    Poor Sunil is also going to end up on the nonce jotter at this rate.

    Police should be able to monitor passengers who spend hours on the railway network in case they are pickpockets or sex offenders — or are in need of help — a chief constable has said.

    Lucy D’Orsi, the head of the British Transport Police, wants to track Oyster and bank cards to spot “anomalous behaviour” and focus police resources on it.

    She told Policing TV: “An example I gave recently is somebody who’s travelling the [London] Underground for six hours. So they tap in and they tap out six hours later? Why is that? Possibly vulnerable, possibly a pickpocket, possibly a predatory sex offender.”

    Police can ask Transport for London and Network Rail for specific travel information on a suspect but do not have access to generic information about passenger movements.

    D’Orsi said she wanted to look at using data in a “better way”. She added: “Another example is somebody who takes a train from London to Liverpool and gets the return train back. That’s not normal. That’s not what people do.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/police-want-travel-card-data-track-suspicious-rail-passengers-latest-cbh88zqkt

    BIB - Actually I've done similar journeys, clients and suppliers have busy lives, and the only time I could discuss stuff with them was on a train journey.

    Bonkers. Vast majority spending six hours will be homeless, and later this winter those wanting to avoid the cold too.

    Six hours for a pickpocket? Either they would be very slow and ineffective, in which case not a priority, or they would be taking a massive risk having many multiple wallets and phones on their person when arrested. Far better just to have one persons at a time, and create the plausible found it on the floor and was going to hand it in later story.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,405
    IshmaelZ said:

    nova said:

    Tory leadership race ‘where we are’ update.





    Surely we'll end up with the likes of Richard Littlejohn and Jeremy Clarkson in deradicalisation programmes?

    You'd be hard to find a group who spend more time professing hate for this country than middle-aged (or elderly now) male newspaper columnists.
    Jeremy Clarkson is barely a year older than me, so let's all laugh at your foolish error in describing him as elderly.
    Look in the mirror old man...
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,070
    Driver said:

    The rozzers can coitus off.

    Poor Sunil is also going to end up on the nonce jotter at this rate.

    Police should be able to monitor passengers who spend hours on the railway network in case they are pickpockets or sex offenders — or are in need of help — a chief constable has said.

    Lucy D’Orsi, the head of the British Transport Police, wants to track Oyster and bank cards to spot “anomalous behaviour” and focus police resources on it.

    She told Policing TV: “An example I gave recently is somebody who’s travelling the [London] Underground for six hours. So they tap in and they tap out six hours later? Why is that? Possibly vulnerable, possibly a pickpocket, possibly a predatory sex offender.”

    Police can ask Transport for London and Network Rail for specific travel information on a suspect but do not have access to generic information about passenger movements.

    D’Orsi said she wanted to look at using data in a “better way”. She added: “Another example is somebody who takes a train from London to Liverpool and gets the return train back. That’s not normal. That’s not what people do.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/police-want-travel-card-data-track-suspicious-rail-passengers-latest-cbh88zqkt

    BIB - Actually I've done similar journeys, clients and suppliers have busy lives, and the only time I could discuss stuff with them was on a train journey.

    I'd never heard of Policing TV, so I googled it. Apparently their slogan is "global progressive policing" - god alone knows what's "progressive" about this nonsense.
    Progressively more authoritarian ?
  • DriverDriver Posts: 4,963
    Selebian said:

    Driver said:
    MidExPro is also apt, particularly given they failed to pay the players around ten years ago (was it?)


    Edit: At least the estate agent isn't run by Fred and Rose. That's something. Not much. But something...
    Or some sort of joint venture with Betfred?
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,061
    Driver said:

    HYUFD said:
    Maricopa county left to report by any chance?
    89k votes left in Maricopa, but Taylor Robson only leads 46-45 there so far.
    Lake ftw then
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,136
    IshmaelZ said:

    kinabalu said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    kinabalu said:

    moonshine said:

    kinabalu said:

    Yes, I was aware of that Truss fandom for Savile. Bit surprised it hasn't been raised before now.

    Because it’s moronic to think that tweet means anything? Are you suggesting that Truss knew Savile was a dirty necrophiliac paedo and still decided to give him a positive word upon his death?
    Course not. But it's a bit dim to say it means NOTHING or to not expect dirty tricks in election campaigns. To me it means she was oblivious to the rumours and dark aura around Jimmy Savile and - worse - is the sort of person who found him an attractive benign persona. This speaks to bad judgement. Not some sort of gamechanger - since there's far more important and relevant and recent evidence of her bad judgement - but, you know, it doesn't look great. Hence why, as I say, I'd have semi expected it to have been dug up and aired before now.
    Unusual to see you digging so assiduously in so deep a hole. Just search Jimmy Savile tributes and be amazed at the outpourings. Prince of Wales, DG BBC, bloody everyone. With, with hindsight, some notable exceptions - Downing Street kept very quiet. But he is a fellow Leeds local of Truss, and Always in good spirits is pretty restrained stuff. Nothing to see here.
    Maybe she flipped it out on autopilot because of the local link. We can't know. But I don't agree it's a total nothing. Not a big deal, sure, but neither a nothing. If we imagine the evidence for her bad judgement as a large wobbly cake this is a bit of sugar sprinkled on top.
    Sir Jimmy Savile's home city is putting aside three days to celebrate the performer's life, with fun, bling and tributes to his trademark wackiness.

    Just about everyone in Leeds has benefited from the millions he raised for local hospitals – or just being shunted around on the trolleys he pushed on his weekly stint as an NHS porter – and a homespun version of lying in state will start the ceremonies on Tuesday. Savile's 15 nephews and nieces have agreed to local pressure for his gold-coloured coffin to stand for a day in the Queen's hotel, close to the clubs where he started his career as a DJ.

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2011/nov/08/leeds-pays-tribute-jimmy-savile

    Read the rest of it too, and marvel.

    Liz was like a secret UK doubter in a Sunak premiership. No choice but outward conformity
    Amazing, yes. And I guess this does open up a new - and better for Truss - way of looking at things. She *wasn't* on board with the Savile persona but because her town was his town and a place where he was venerated she felt she couldn't go against this - or even say nothing - so what she did was damn him with the faint praise of "always looked cheerful". Not saying I'm 100% persuaded by this but I will be having a think about it.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,296
    HYUFD said:
    El American
    @ElAmerican_
    ·
    2h
    #BREAKING |
    @KariLake
    is the projected winner of the Arizona GOP Primary according to sources.


    https://twitter.com/ElAmerican_/status/1554746746001039361?s=20&t=VogxfiVVJJcAckGDpUxU3Q


    UNFURL THE BLACK FLAGS, IT IS TIME
  • DriverDriver Posts: 4,963

    IshmaelZ said:

    nova said:

    Tory leadership race ‘where we are’ update.





    Surely we'll end up with the likes of Richard Littlejohn and Jeremy Clarkson in deradicalisation programmes?

    You'd be hard to find a group who spend more time professing hate for this country than middle-aged (or elderly now) male newspaper columnists.
    Jeremy Clarkson is barely a year older than me, so let's all laugh at your foolish error in describing him as elderly.
    Look in the mirror old man...
    62 can't be "elderly", surely?
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,585

    The rozzers can coitus off.

    Poor Sunil is also going to end up on the nonce jotter at this rate.

    Police should be able to monitor passengers who spend hours on the railway network in case they are pickpockets or sex offenders — or are in need of help — a chief constable has said.

    Lucy D’Orsi, the head of the British Transport Police, wants to track Oyster and bank cards to spot “anomalous behaviour” and focus police resources on it.

    She told Policing TV: “An example I gave recently is somebody who’s travelling the [London] Underground for six hours. So they tap in and they tap out six hours later? Why is that? Possibly vulnerable, possibly a pickpocket, possibly a predatory sex offender.”

    Police can ask Transport for London and Network Rail for specific travel information on a suspect but do not have access to generic information about passenger movements.

    D’Orsi said she wanted to look at using data in a “better way”. She added: “Another example is somebody who takes a train from London to Liverpool and gets the return train back. That’s not normal. That’s not what people do.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/police-want-travel-card-data-track-suspicious-rail-passengers-latest-cbh88zqkt

    BIB - Actually I've done similar journeys, clients and suppliers have busy lives, and the only time I could discuss stuff with them was on a train journey.

    A schoolmate once had to entertain a cousin visiting London from somewhere 'up north'. He offered to tahe him to all the sights but it turned out all the guy wanted to do was ride the Underground. He was particularly fond of the Circle line. It was utter tedium for my friend, but endless hours of fun for the cousin.

    They would surely have been arrested under these insane proposals.
    My brother did some sort of challenge of trying to ride the entire Underground network in a single day.

    Anyone a little bit unusual shouldn't have to put up with police harassment.
    Do students still do the Circle Line pub crawl? That would look like a very unusual use of an off-peak Travelcard.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,061
    Driver said:

    On topic, surely the polls won't be any kind of reliable guide until the Leadership election is over and we have had a few months of government under the new Leader?

    And polling's always more unreliable in the summer, isn't it, with people going on holiday?
    Looking at the polling last time, Boris got an initial boost from the 20s into the low 30s, then it settled and dropped back a touch before a second wind bounce leading to the election vote
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,296
    lol

    Kari Lake is claiming election fraud, EVEN THO SHE'S PROBABLY GOING TO WIN

    The Trumpites really are out there, living on Planet Special
This discussion has been closed.