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The latest polling is giving us widely different numbers – politicalbetting.com

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  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,664

    Well there's full employment and good pay rises.

    But the Guardian considers them bad things when the private sector working class get them.
    'Good pay rises'? Not in real terms.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,070
    TOPPING said:

    Talking of a bounce for the new leader, and following on from my hot take from the membership front line, where I said that all of my mate's friends were for Rishi, I now think that if he gets it (big if, obvs) then he will have a large bounce as people might think (aided by Rishi's team if they know what's good for them) that he was the nice bloke who handed out free money while everyone else was trying to stop him doing so.

    If he did get it, he likely get a large bounce simply on the basis of having demonstrated the ability to pull off a near miracle.
    A useful talent in our present situation.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,664
    Sandpit said:

    Well there's full employment and good pay rises.

    But the Guardian considers them bad things when the private sector working class get them.
    If FoM were still in place, there would be massive pressure on the minimum wage and housing costs right now, alongside rising unemployment.

    The absence of these, of course, doesn’t make the news.
    Counterfactual and unprovable.

    I might just as well say: if Labour had won in 2010 the UK would be the leading European economy now.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,368
    Andy_JS said:

    Why was no request made to EDF to keep the two nuclears at Hinkley B in service for another two years, rather than shutting them this week and losing a gigawatt of power? A delay was among the options presented in the Government’s “worst-case” modelling for a crisis this winter.

    Telegraph

    FFS

    Boris Johnson asleep on the job?
    You've read Jennifer Arcuri's memoir too.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,434
    As the vaccine programme has already shown us, the benefits of Brexit feedoms (or any freedoms) cannot be 'sought'; they happen. In that regard, they're a bit like lifeboats on an Ocean liner. You don't walk past them sneering and challenge the crew to find a use for them; you're just glad they're there.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,962
    DavidL said:

    Well there's full employment and good pay rises.

    But the Guardian considers them bad things when the private sector working class get them.
    Oh and there are record exports to the EU, but I can't find that on the list strangely enough.
    Isn’t that mainly due to increased fuel exports due to u-know-what in Ukraine? Not sure how sustainable (arf) that is.
  • DavidL said:

    Well there's full employment and good pay rises.

    But the Guardian considers them bad things when the private sector working class get them.
    Oh and there are record exports to the EU, but I can't find that on the list strangely enough.
    Yet we told for the sixth consecutive year that the crops are 'rotting in the fields'.

    Well those farmers must be both very rich if they can have their crops not be harvested for so long without going bankrupt and also incredibly stupid if they keep planting crops which cannot be harvested.

    Or perhaps the 'crops are rotting in the fields' claims have been lies since 2017.

    The amount of union jack packaging in the supermarkets suggest that as well.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,664

    As the vaccine programme has already shown us, the benefits of Brexit feedoms (or any freedoms) cannot be 'sought'; they happen. In that regard, they're a bit like lifeboats on an Ocean liner. You don't walk past them sneering and challenge the crew to find a use for them; you're just glad they're there.
    Vaccine roll-out ≠ a benefit of Brexit. We were perfectly at liberty to do our own thing while in the EU.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,135
    Yes, I was aware of that Truss fandom for Savile. Bit surprised it hasn't been raised before now.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,831

    DavidL said:

    Well there's full employment and good pay rises.

    But the Guardian considers them bad things when the private sector working class get them.
    Oh and there are record exports to the EU, but I can't find that on the list strangely enough.
    Isn’t that mainly due to increased fuel exports due to u-know-what in Ukraine? Not sure how sustainable (arf) that is.

    DavidL said:

    Well there's full employment and good pay rises.

    But the Guardian considers them bad things when the private sector working class get them.
    Oh and there are record exports to the EU, but I can't find that on the list strangely enough.
    Isn’t that mainly due to increased fuel exports due to u-know-what in Ukraine? Not sure how sustainable (arf) that is.
    That is certainly a factor but the ONS's position is that across the board our exports are back to "normal" so far as the EU is concerned. We are sending 6.5% of our electricity production to France this morning. That rate has increased significantly over the last month so there are probably more records to come.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 13,799

    As the vaccine programme has already shown us, the benefits of Brexit feedoms (or any freedoms) cannot be 'sought'; they happen. In that regard, they're a bit like lifeboats on an Ocean liner. You don't walk past them sneering and challenge the crew to find a use for them; you're just glad they're there.
    Ooh, and there's also not having to ration our gas.
    Now there's a big risk of speaking too soon here of course. We might have a gas free winter. But if we were still in the EU, we definitely would.
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 5,747

    As the vaccine programme has already shown us, the benefits of Brexit feedoms (or any freedoms) cannot be 'sought'; they happen. In that regard, they're a bit like lifeboats on an Ocean liner. You don't walk past them sneering and challenge the crew to find a use for them; you're just glad they're there.
    Vaccine roll-out ≠ a benefit of Brexit. We were perfectly at liberty to do our own thing while in the EU.
    You come across as silly saying this because you know perfectly well how it would have played out. Just admit that there have been some items in the plus column but you think there are far more negatives.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,370

    Carnyx said:

    Pulpstar said:

    eek said:

    You would have thought someone would have spent a while checking Liz's twitter for awkward tweets


    How many hours would that take, or if it was to be done in quick time I presume it'd need an IT professional.
    There's (free) software available to download all the tweets from a user's timeline. For someone who knows what they're doing it'd be an hour or so's work to set it up, and then it's running cost-free from then on. It's the sort of thing that every Fleet Street newsroom should have installed tbh.
    Does that erase all, or just between certain dates? One would assume the latter. Not very helpful deleting the Savile one if it wipes your current campaigning tweets.
    Nonono, “download” as in “a tool for a journalist or campaigner to find all Liz Truss’s past tweets and store a copy on their own computer”. Not as in “erase”.

    Downloaded as in a copy still exists even after Liz Truss has deleted it from twitter....
  • FishingFishing Posts: 5,037

    Well there's full employment and good pay rises.

    But the Guardian considers them bad things when the private sector working class get them.
    We've also grown faster than France, Italy or Germany since we left the Single Market:

    https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/sn02784/

    Of course we're scheduled to slow down next year when Sunak's idiotic corporation tax rises kick in.
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 5,747
    kinabalu said:

    Yes, I was aware of that Truss fandom for Savile. Bit surprised it hasn't been raised before now.

    Because it’s moronic to think that tweet means anything? Are you suggesting that Truss knew Savile was a dirty necrophiliac paedo and still decided to give him a positive word upon his death?
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,368

    Tory leadership race ‘where we are’ update.







    If every weekday morning school children saluted the Union flag and prayed to Mrs Thatcher that might be a start.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,592
    kinabalu said:

    Yes, I was aware of that Truss fandom for Savile. Bit surprised it hasn't been raised before now.

    How is that tweet 'fandom'?

    People *liked* Saville, and he had successfully fought off allegations about the truth in court. Read those obituaries I posted from the day after she posted that tweet.

    If you want to go the other way, just look at Tom Watson's vile campaigns.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,434
    There is a very big international campaign to get people out of farming, emanating afaik from the WEF and dangerous green factions. In The Netherlands they're shutting farms, resulting in mass protests. In the UK it isn't as bad, but the Government is still paying people to leave farming, which is a disgrace. Liz is right and brave to prioritise growing food over solar panels - let's hope that resolve continues once in office.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,831

    eek said:

    You would have thought someone would have spent a while checking Liz's twitter for awkward tweets


    I am no Truss fan, but I wonder what saddo found that? There really are people with such sad lives that they spend hours trawling through opponents old tweets from a decade ago to find a tweet that was based on the passing of a celebrity that at that time most people did not know was a pedo.
    Good grief, can you imagine the frothing rage the Sun, Mail and Express would get themselves into if that tweet had been from Starmer?
    QTWAIN.

    When he passed it wasn't public knowledge that he was a paedo, that came out post-mortem. That a politician would say RIP to a celebrity is neither here nor there.

    What's far more concerning is those who did know or see the evidence he was a paedo but did nothing about it, or covered it up.
    That post is disgraceful.

    ‘When he passed’ is the sort of euphemistic crap imported from the US that must be fought with might and main. The disgusting old paedo DIED.
    Although it doesn't address the UK/US usage, it's interesting to see 'when he passed' in Google NGrams:
    https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=when+he+passed&year_start=1800&year_end=2019&corpus=26&smoothing=3

    Usage dipped down until 1980, then increased.
    Saying 'passed on' or 'passed away' may have come from America, but a very long time ago. It's only 'passed' on its own that's a recent American intruder. It sounds quite stupid really, like they missed a question on Mastermind.
    Passed away apparently started in 15th century England so I don' t think we can blame the Americans for that one.

    https://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/278400.html#:~:text=What's the origin of the phrase 'Pass away'?,a dead person was a literal physical event.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,585

    There is a very big international campaign to get people out of farming, emanating afaik from the WEF and dangerous green factions. In The Netherlands they're shutting farms, resulting in mass protests. In the UK it isn't as bad, but the Government is still paying people to leave farming, which is a disgrace. Liz is right and brave to prioritise growing food over solar panels - let's hope that resolve continues once in office.
    Sri Lanka.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,368
    kinabalu said:

    Yes, I was aware of that Truss fandom for Savile. Bit surprised it hasn't been raised before now.

    Now then, now then!
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,070

    Tory leadership race ‘where we are’ update.





    Are they planning to outlaw the SNP ? :smile:


  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,405

    As the vaccine programme has already shown us, the benefits of Brexit feedoms (or any freedoms) cannot be 'sought'; they happen. In that regard, they're a bit like lifeboats on an Ocean liner. You don't walk past them sneering and challenge the crew to find a use for them; you're just glad they're there.
    Vaccine roll-out ≠ a benefit of Brexit. We were perfectly at liberty to do our own thing while in the EU.
    Its the road not traveled. Yes we would have been at liberty to do as we did, but many suspect we would have been under pressure to stay within the EU procurement. Indeed even at the time the government was criticized for not going with the EU despite Brexit.

    In the end it may seem like it made little difference. I'd suggest that some lives were saved by earlier vaccination, but its impossible to really know.

    Those who hate Brexit will say bollocks, those who love Brexit will claim it as a win (there don't seem many wins around to claim right now).
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    moonshine said:

    As the vaccine programme has already shown us, the benefits of Brexit feedoms (or any freedoms) cannot be 'sought'; they happen. In that regard, they're a bit like lifeboats on an Ocean liner. You don't walk past them sneering and challenge the crew to find a use for them; you're just glad they're there.
    Vaccine roll-out ≠ a benefit of Brexit. We were perfectly at liberty to do our own thing while in the EU.
    You come across as silly saying this because you know perfectly well how it would have played out. Just admit that there have been some items in the plus column but you think there are far more negatives.
    That's simply wrong, and disregards the awkward squad relationship we always had with the EU as members. It would have depended entirely on the PM at the time.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,434
    Nigelb said:

    eek said:

    You would have thought someone would have spent a while checking Liz's twitter for awkward tweets


    I am no Truss fan, but I wonder what saddo found that? There really are people with such sad lives that they spend hours trawling through opponents old tweets from a decade ago to find a tweet that was based on the passing of a celebrity that at that time most people did not know was a pedo.
    Good grief, can you imagine the frothing rage the Sun, Mail and Express would get themselves into if that tweet had been from Starmer?
    QTWAIN.

    When he passed it wasn't public knowledge that he was a paedo, that came out post-mortem. That a politician would say RIP to a celebrity is neither here nor there.

    What's far more concerning is those who did know or see the evidence he was a paedo but did nothing about it, or covered it up.
    QTWAIN?

    You cannot imagine the frothing rage the Sun, Mail and Express would get themselves into if that tweet had been from Starmer?

    Along with half of PB.

    It's not as though anyone's arguing this is disqualificatory. Though it might prompt those who admire her unfiltered nature to think about the potential downside as well.

    What potential downside? She expressed vague sympathy that someone she half knew had died. Why on earth would she, or anyone else, feel the need to cover up this fact after Savile's crimes were revealed? The idea of doing so borders on unhinged.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,636

    kinabalu said:

    Yes, I was aware of that Truss fandom for Savile. Bit surprised it hasn't been raised before now.

    Now then, now then!
    What’s this about Truss then?

  • DriverDriver Posts: 4,963
    Well, not in the 26 minutes since someone else posted that link.
  • FishingFishing Posts: 5,037

    There is a very big international campaign to get people out of farming, emanating afaik from the WEF and dangerous green factions. In The Netherlands they're shutting farms, resulting in mass protests. In the UK it isn't as bad, but the Government is still paying people to leave farming, which is a disgrace. Liz is right and brave to prioritise growing food over solar panels - let's hope that resolve continues once in office.
    It's a low wage, low skill industry which uses land inefficiently and messes up the environment when done intensively and needs huge amounts of immigrant labour. We should absolutely be out of it, concentrating on industries where we have a comparative advantage instead.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    edited August 2022
    moonshine said:

    kinabalu said:

    Yes, I was aware of that Truss fandom for Savile. Bit surprised it hasn't been raised before now.

    Because it’s moronic to think that tweet means anything? Are you suggesting that Truss knew Savile was a dirty necrophiliac paedo and still decided to give him a positive word upon his death?
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-15507826

    https://www.channel4.com/news/sir-jimmy-savile-dies-aged-84

    ETA and chaz n Mills in the vanguard

    https://www.digitalspy.com/showbiz/a348210/sir-jimmy-savile-tributes-pour-in/

    "Tributes pour in." It was a good year before the truth emerged
  • eekeek Posts: 28,370
    Fishing said:

    Well there's full employment and good pay rises.

    But the Guardian considers them bad things when the private sector working class get them.
    We've also grown faster than France, Italy or Germany since we left the Single Market:

    https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/sn02784/

    Of course we're scheduled to slow down next year when Sunak's idiotic corporation tax rises kick in.
    The idiotic bit was cutting corporation tax while removing investment allowances.

    The end result was a shift from investing in productivity improvements to throwing cheap labour at the problem in the hope for short term profits.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,962
    Nigelb said:

    Tory leadership race ‘where we are’ update.





    Are they planning to outlaw the SNP ? :smile:


    I believe internment camps with compulsory viewing of Dad’s Army and loudspeakers blasting out Vera Lynn are part of the master plan.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,070
    .

    Nigelb said:

    eek said:

    You would have thought someone would have spent a while checking Liz's twitter for awkward tweets


    I am no Truss fan, but I wonder what saddo found that? There really are people with such sad lives that they spend hours trawling through opponents old tweets from a decade ago to find a tweet that was based on the passing of a celebrity that at that time most people did not know was a pedo.
    Good grief, can you imagine the frothing rage the Sun, Mail and Express would get themselves into if that tweet had been from Starmer?
    QTWAIN.

    When he passed it wasn't public knowledge that he was a paedo, that came out post-mortem. That a politician would say RIP to a celebrity is neither here nor there.

    What's far more concerning is those who did know or see the evidence he was a paedo but did nothing about it, or covered it up.
    QTWAIN?

    You cannot imagine the frothing rage the Sun, Mail and Express would get themselves into if that tweet had been from Starmer?

    Along with half of PB.

    It's not as though anyone's arguing this is disqualificatory. Though it might prompt those who admire her unfiltered nature to think about the potential downside as well.

    What potential downside? She expressed vague sympathy that someone she half knew had died. Why on earth would she, or anyone else, feel the need to cover up this fact after Savile's crimes were revealed? The idea of doing so borders on unhinged.
    See my comment upthread about her compulsion to say stuff without thinking.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,368
    edited August 2022
    TOPPING said:

    Talking of a bounce for the new leader, and following on from my hot take from the membership front line, where I said that all of my mate's friends were for Rishi, I now think that if he gets it (big if, obvs) then he will have a large bounce as people might think (aided by Rishi's team if they know what's good for them) that he was the nice bloke who handed out free money while everyone else was trying to stop him doing so.

    The media are already aiming at that fox.

    £17b in BiBs loans paid to organisations that have subsequently gone through the hoop. All media channels were reporting the Scottish guy who spent his £50k loan on two cars, liquidated the company and subsequently won 200 grand in Vegas.

    But other than that yes.
  • DriverDriver Posts: 4,963
    edited August 2022
    Cookie said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    On another note, I so miss the rain. It’s really eating into me now. The drying out of everything is just horrible to see. It’s almost physical - like I can feel it happening. Water is life.

    Rainfall across England and Wales in July was just 31% of average levels, the lowest for at least two decades.

    https://www.metoffice.gov.uk/hadobs/hadukp/charts/hadukp_daily_plots.html

    Looking back through that data it's notable how wet the month of July was while Brown was PM. 2007 191% of average, 2008 147%, 2009 195%. What a dreary run.
    Gordon Brown
    Why Does It Always Rain on Me?
    Is it because I lied when I was seventeen?
    Why Does It Always Rain on Me?
    Even when the sun is shining
    I can't avoid the lightning

    Sums up his Premiership really.
    Though if Prime Ministerial lying was what caused rain, we'd currently be experiencing a flood that not even Noah's Ark could save us from.
    Very true. I vaguely recall in one of the early Pratchetts there was a lorry driver who was (unknown to him) the son of a rain god and it rained everywhere he went. That might explain it better.
    I think that was Douglas Adams.
    I've a feeling it was So Long and Thanks for All the Fish. The fourth book in the hitchhikers' trilogy.
    One of the happiest books ever written. I always think Adams must have been in an unusually good place when he wrote that.
    You are right (and I'm wrong too, I thought it was in Truckers but on second thoughts that doesn't have human viewpoint characters): https://hitchhikers.fandom.com/wiki/Rob_McKenna
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 5,747
    IshmaelZ said:

    moonshine said:

    As the vaccine programme has already shown us, the benefits of Brexit feedoms (or any freedoms) cannot be 'sought'; they happen. In that regard, they're a bit like lifeboats on an Ocean liner. You don't walk past them sneering and challenge the crew to find a use for them; you're just glad they're there.
    Vaccine roll-out ≠ a benefit of Brexit. We were perfectly at liberty to do our own thing while in the EU.
    You come across as silly saying this because you know perfectly well how it would have played out. Just admit that there have been some items in the plus column but you think there are far more negatives.
    That's simply wrong, and disregards the awkward squad relationship we always had with the EU as members. It would have depended entirely on the PM at the time.
    Had we not voted for Brexit and there been any realistic contender as PM other than Johnson than it’s very clear we have been in the eu procurement scheme. Starmer was making political hay about how reckless the govt was being even AFTER Brexit.

    It was a win in the Brexit column. As it turned out it had a fairly fleeting impact because of the extreme hesitation in 2021 to lift all restrictions after the win, and the silly unjustifiable reimposition of them upon omicron. But the uk vaccine procurement no doubt did save lives.
  • So Kansas has voted pro abortion rights:

    https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2022/08/02/us/elections/results-kansas-abortion-amendment.html

    Which means that repealing RvW is working as it should do and perhaps not how some of the GOP expected.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,434

    Nigelb said:

    Tory leadership race ‘where we are’ update.





    Are they planning to outlaw the SNP ? :smile:


    I believe internment camps with compulsory viewing of Dad’s Army and loudspeakers blasting out Vera Lynn are part of the master plan.
    If the diet is non-stop fish and chips, fried breakfast and cups of builder's tea, I'm in.
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,679
    I see that Truss/Savile tweet was brought to light by 'Old Holborn', who was a prolific Guido poster and nihilist back in the day. What does that tell us?
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,717
    Pulpstar said:

    eek said:

    You would have thought someone would have spent a while checking Liz's twitter for awkward tweets


    How many hours would that take, or if it was to be done in quick time I presume it'd need an IT professional. Quite honestly there's better use of people's time and money than going through all their old tweets and eliminating ones that might be inconvienient.
    Offence archeology is the term aiui.

  • DriverDriver Posts: 4,963

    As the vaccine programme has already shown us, the benefits of Brexit feedoms (or any freedoms) cannot be 'sought'; they happen. In that regard, they're a bit like lifeboats on an Ocean liner. You don't walk past them sneering and challenge the crew to find a use for them; you're just glad they're there.
    Vaccine roll-out ≠ a benefit of Brexit. We were perfectly at liberty to do our own thing while in the EU.
    Except we wouldn't have, as the the political pressure to show we were good Europeans would have been irresistible after a Remain vote. And in any case weren't EU countries that wanted to go their own way excluded from buying vaccines that the EU itself was, effectively limiting them to Chinese and Russian vaccines?
  • eekeek Posts: 28,370

    I see that Truss/Savile tweet was brought to light by 'Old Holborn', who was a prolific Guido poster and nihilist back in the day. What does that tell us?

    Beyond the fact they are trouble makers for fun and lols not much really.
  • DavidL said:

    eek said:

    You would have thought someone would have spent a while checking Liz's twitter for awkward tweets


    I am no Truss fan, but I wonder what saddo found that? There really are people with such sad lives that they spend hours trawling through opponents old tweets from a decade ago to find a tweet that was based on the passing of a celebrity that at that time most people did not know was a pedo.
    Good grief, can you imagine the frothing rage the Sun, Mail and Express would get themselves into if that tweet had been from Starmer?
    QTWAIN.

    When he passed it wasn't public knowledge that he was a paedo, that came out post-mortem. That a politician would say RIP to a celebrity is neither here nor there.

    What's far more concerning is those who did know or see the evidence he was a paedo but did nothing about it, or covered it up.
    That post is disgraceful.

    ‘When he passed’ is the sort of euphemistic crap imported from the US that must be fought with might and main. The disgusting old paedo DIED.
    Although it doesn't address the UK/US usage, it's interesting to see 'when he passed' in Google NGrams:
    https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=when+he+passed&year_start=1800&year_end=2019&corpus=26&smoothing=3

    Usage dipped down until 1980, then increased.
    Saying 'passed on' or 'passed away' may have come from America, but a very long time ago. It's only 'passed' on its own that's a recent American intruder. It sounds quite stupid really, like they missed a question on Mastermind.
    Passed away apparently started in 15th century England so I don' t think we can blame the Americans for that one.

    https://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/278400.html#:~:text=What's the origin of the phrase 'Pass away'?,a dead person was a literal physical event.
    The Historical Thesaurus of English has "pass away" as from 1375, "pass (hence)" from 1300, "pass the ghost" from 1400, "pass on" 1804, "pass out" 1867, "pass over" 1897

    https://ht.ac.uk/category/?type=search&qsearch=pass&page=1#id=15487
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,585
    Fishing said:

    There is a very big international campaign to get people out of farming, emanating afaik from the WEF and dangerous green factions. In The Netherlands they're shutting farms, resulting in mass protests. In the UK it isn't as bad, but the Government is still paying people to leave farming, which is a disgrace. Liz is right and brave to prioritise growing food over solar panels - let's hope that resolve continues once in office.
    It's a low wage, low skill industry which uses land inefficiently and messes up the environment when done intensively and needs huge amounts of immigrant labour. We should absolutely be out of it, concentrating on industries where we have a comparative advantage instead.
    Yes and no. There’s a balance to be struck between land management, food security, and food quality.

    How many countries were relying on food imports from Ukraine and Russia this year?

    There needs to be investment in capital from the large farms, and investment in food quality from the smaller ones. Agree on what would be called slave labour, if other countries were doing it.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,434
    Fishing said:

    There is a very big international campaign to get people out of farming, emanating afaik from the WEF and dangerous green factions. In The Netherlands they're shutting farms, resulting in mass protests. In the UK it isn't as bad, but the Government is still paying people to leave farming, which is a disgrace. Liz is right and brave to prioritise growing food over solar panels - let's hope that resolve continues once in office.
    It's a low wage, low skill industry which uses land inefficiently and messes up the environment when done intensively and needs huge amounts of immigrant labour. We should absolutely be out of it, concentrating on industries where we have a comparative advantage instead.
    Idiotic.
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,679
    moonshine said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    moonshine said:

    As the vaccine programme has already shown us, the benefits of Brexit feedoms (or any freedoms) cannot be 'sought'; they happen. In that regard, they're a bit like lifeboats on an Ocean liner. You don't walk past them sneering and challenge the crew to find a use for them; you're just glad they're there.
    Vaccine roll-out ≠ a benefit of Brexit. We were perfectly at liberty to do our own thing while in the EU.
    You come across as silly saying this because you know perfectly well how it would have played out. Just admit that there have been some items in the plus column but you think there are far more negatives.
    That's simply wrong, and disregards the awkward squad relationship we always had with the EU as members. It would have depended entirely on the PM at the time.
    Had we not voted for Brexit and there been any realistic contender as PM other than Johnson than it’s very clear we have been in the eu procurement scheme. Starmer was making political hay about how reckless the govt was being even AFTER Brexit.

    It was a win in the Brexit column. As it turned out it had a fairly fleeting impact because of the extreme hesitation in 2021 to lift all restrictions after the win, and the silly unjustifiable reimposition of them upon omicron. But the uk vaccine procurement no doubt did save lives.
    Nor necessarily. Our presence in the EU procurement scheme might have been beneficial to it. All that sniping and one-upmanship between the two sides was a baleful distraction.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,368

    Nigelb said:

    Tory leadership race ‘where we are’ update.





    Are they planning to outlaw the SNP ? :smile:


    I believe internment camps with compulsory viewing of Dad’s Army and loudspeakers blasting out Vera Lynn are part of the master plan.
    Well if Liz wins she can adopt the same brainwashing programme that turned her from a middle of the road Liberal to a rabid right-winger.

    I am hoping the programme doesn't involve an intervention from Mark Field, mind you.
  • DriverDriver Posts: 4,963

    So Kansas has voted pro abortion rights:

    https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2022/08/02/us/elections/results-kansas-abortion-amendment.html

    Which means that repealing RvW is working as it should do and perhaps not how some of the GOP expected.

    Yes, it does rather put all the wailing and gnashing of teeth over Dobbs into context.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,070
    moonshine said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    moonshine said:

    As the vaccine programme has already shown us, the benefits of Brexit feedoms (or any freedoms) cannot be 'sought'; they happen. In that regard, they're a bit like lifeboats on an Ocean liner. You don't walk past them sneering and challenge the crew to find a use for them; you're just glad they're there.
    Vaccine roll-out ≠ a benefit of Brexit. We were perfectly at liberty to do our own thing while in the EU.
    You come across as silly saying this because you know perfectly well how it would have played out. Just admit that there have been some items in the plus column but you think there are far more negatives.
    That's simply wrong, and disregards the awkward squad relationship we always had with the EU as members. It would have depended entirely on the PM at the time.
    Had we not voted for Brexit and there been any realistic contender as PM other than Johnson than it’s very clear we have been in the eu procurement scheme. Starmer was making political hay about how reckless the govt was being even AFTER Brexit.

    It was a win in the Brexit column. As it turned out it had a fairly fleeting impact because of the extreme hesitation in 2021 to lift all restrictions after the win, and the silly unjustifiable reimposition of them upon omicron. But the uk vaccine procurement no doubt did save lives.
    It's an interesting counterfactual.
    Certainly there was a compulsion to show that we could do stuff on our own, so the 'benefit' is possibly true.
    On the other side of the scales, there might not have been the disgraceful campaign against the AZN vaccine. That might have saved many more lives worldwide.

  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,863
    I agree with comments above that current polls aren't telling us much while the leadership is being decided. New PMs always get a honeymoon, even if one that tends not to last too long without an accompanying election victory. I expect Truss (if it is her) will benefit through the autumn, with relief at the clown's demise, but would be surprised - given the circumstances and the grim news lined up for later in the year - if it takes her into the New Year.

    Local elections next year should be interesting.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,592
    Nigelb said:

    .

    Nigelb said:

    eek said:

    You would have thought someone would have spent a while checking Liz's twitter for awkward tweets


    I am no Truss fan, but I wonder what saddo found that? There really are people with such sad lives that they spend hours trawling through opponents old tweets from a decade ago to find a tweet that was based on the passing of a celebrity that at that time most people did not know was a pedo.
    Good grief, can you imagine the frothing rage the Sun, Mail and Express would get themselves into if that tweet had been from Starmer?
    QTWAIN.

    When he passed it wasn't public knowledge that he was a paedo, that came out post-mortem. That a politician would say RIP to a celebrity is neither here nor there.

    What's far more concerning is those who did know or see the evidence he was a paedo but did nothing about it, or covered it up.
    QTWAIN?

    You cannot imagine the frothing rage the Sun, Mail and Express would get themselves into if that tweet had been from Starmer?

    Along with half of PB.

    It's not as though anyone's arguing this is disqualificatory. Though it might prompt those who admire her unfiltered nature to think about the potential downside as well.

    What potential downside? She expressed vague sympathy that someone she half knew had died. Why on earth would she, or anyone else, feel the need to cover up this fact after Savile's crimes were revealed? The idea of doing so borders on unhinged.
    See my comment upthread about her compulsion to say stuff without thinking.
    You mean this comment?

    "It's not as though anyone's arguing this is disqualificatory. Though it might prompt those who admire her unfiltered nature to think about the potential downside as well."

    How the heck is saying a little anecdote on a famous person on the day they died in any way 'unfiltered' a year *before* it was revealed he was evil?

    May we have a list of other famous people who we should be careful posting reminiscences about because they've done evil things that are not yet public? No? And that's why your comment is wrong.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,135

    kinabalu said:

    Yes, I was aware of that Truss fandom for Savile. Bit surprised it hasn't been raised before now.

    How is that tweet 'fandom'?

    People *liked* Saville, and he had successfully fought off allegations about the truth in court. Read those obituaries I posted from the day after she posted that tweet.

    If you want to go the other way, just look at Tom Watson's vile campaigns.
    Airing gushing public praise for a celeb isn't fandom iyo? Well there are serviceable alternatives, I suppose.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,863
    Nigelb said:

    moonshine said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    moonshine said:

    As the vaccine programme has already shown us, the benefits of Brexit feedoms (or any freedoms) cannot be 'sought'; they happen. In that regard, they're a bit like lifeboats on an Ocean liner. You don't walk past them sneering and challenge the crew to find a use for them; you're just glad they're there.
    Vaccine roll-out ≠ a benefit of Brexit. We were perfectly at liberty to do our own thing while in the EU.
    You come across as silly saying this because you know perfectly well how it would have played out. Just admit that there have been some items in the plus column but you think there are far more negatives.
    That's simply wrong, and disregards the awkward squad relationship we always had with the EU as members. It would have depended entirely on the PM at the time.
    Had we not voted for Brexit and there been any realistic contender as PM other than Johnson than it’s very clear we have been in the eu procurement scheme. Starmer was making political hay about how reckless the govt was being even AFTER Brexit.

    It was a win in the Brexit column. As it turned out it had a fairly fleeting impact because of the extreme hesitation in 2021 to lift all restrictions after the win, and the silly unjustifiable reimposition of them upon omicron. But the uk vaccine procurement no doubt did save lives.
    It's an interesting counterfactual.
    Certainly there was a compulsion to show that we could do stuff on our own, so the 'benefit' is possibly true.
    On the other side of the scales, there might not have been the disgraceful campaign against the AZN vaccine. That might have saved many more lives worldwide.

    Indeed. And it was possible - as Hungary did - to be BOTH in the EU scheme and doing our own deals. A remain vote wouldn't have magicked away our desire to be leading our own research nor our general wariness of new pan-EU initiatives.
  • FishingFishing Posts: 5,037

    Fishing said:

    There is a very big international campaign to get people out of farming, emanating afaik from the WEF and dangerous green factions. In The Netherlands they're shutting farms, resulting in mass protests. In the UK it isn't as bad, but the Government is still paying people to leave farming, which is a disgrace. Liz is right and brave to prioritise growing food over solar panels - let's hope that resolve continues once in office.
    It's a low wage, low skill industry which uses land inefficiently and messes up the environment when done intensively and needs huge amounts of immigrant labour. We should absolutely be out of it, concentrating on industries where we have a comparative advantage instead.
    Idiotic.
    No, the idiotic thing is concentrating on, and subsidising, low wage, failing industries. We should be encouraging success, not reinforcing failure.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,585

    moonshine said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    moonshine said:

    As the vaccine programme has already shown us, the benefits of Brexit feedoms (or any freedoms) cannot be 'sought'; they happen. In that regard, they're a bit like lifeboats on an Ocean liner. You don't walk past them sneering and challenge the crew to find a use for them; you're just glad they're there.
    Vaccine roll-out ≠ a benefit of Brexit. We were perfectly at liberty to do our own thing while in the EU.
    You come across as silly saying this because you know perfectly well how it would have played out. Just admit that there have been some items in the plus column but you think there are far more negatives.
    That's simply wrong, and disregards the awkward squad relationship we always had with the EU as members. It would have depended entirely on the PM at the time.
    Had we not voted for Brexit and there been any realistic contender as PM other than Johnson than it’s very clear we have been in the eu procurement scheme. Starmer was making political hay about how reckless the govt was being even AFTER Brexit.

    It was a win in the Brexit column. As it turned out it had a fairly fleeting impact because of the extreme hesitation in 2021 to lift all restrictions after the win, and the silly unjustifiable reimposition of them upon omicron. But the uk vaccine procurement no doubt did save lives.
    Nor necessarily. Our presence in the EU procurement scheme might have been beneficial to it. All that sniping and one-upmanship between the two sides was a baleful distraction.
    It could also be argued that the mere presence of the UK scheme, and the political implications of that, prevented the EU scheme from being even more flat-footed than it was.

    Another month later, and the US would have bought up almost the entire Pfizer output for six months.
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,723
    edited August 2022

    DavidL said:

    eek said:

    You would have thought someone would have spent a while checking Liz's twitter for awkward tweets


    I am no Truss fan, but I wonder what saddo found that? There really are people with such sad lives that they spend hours trawling through opponents old tweets from a decade ago to find a tweet that was based on the passing of a celebrity that at that time most people did not know was a pedo.
    Good grief, can you imagine the frothing rage the Sun, Mail and Express would get themselves into if that tweet had been from Starmer?
    QTWAIN.

    When he passed it wasn't public knowledge that he was a paedo, that came out post-mortem. That a politician would say RIP to a celebrity is neither here nor there.

    What's far more concerning is those who did know or see the evidence he was a paedo but did nothing about it, or covered it up.
    That post is disgraceful.

    ‘When he passed’ is the sort of euphemistic crap imported from the US that must be fought with might and main. The disgusting old paedo DIED.
    Although it doesn't address the UK/US usage, it's interesting to see 'when he passed' in Google NGrams:
    https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=when+he+passed&year_start=1800&year_end=2019&corpus=26&smoothing=3

    Usage dipped down until 1980, then increased.
    Saying 'passed on' or 'passed away' may have come from America, but a very long time ago. It's only 'passed' on its own that's a recent American intruder. It sounds quite stupid really, like they missed a question on Mastermind.
    Passed away apparently started in 15th century England so I don' t think we can blame the Americans for that one.

    https://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/278400.html#:~:text=What's the origin of the phrase 'Pass away'?,a dead person was a literal physical event.
    The Historical Thesaurus of English has "pass away" as from 1375, "pass (hence)" from 1300, "pass the ghost" from 1400, "pass on" 1804, "pass out" 1867, "pass over" 1897

    https://ht.ac.uk/category/?type=search&qsearch=pass&page=1#id=15487
    I realky dislike the word 'passed'. I lost my wife,(scarcely credible that it's 10 yrs ago) ...she died, she did not pass away or pass . She died... and may her soul still rest in peace.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,368
    Fishing said:

    There is a very big international campaign to get people out of farming, emanating afaik from the WEF and dangerous green factions. In The Netherlands they're shutting farms, resulting in mass protests. In the UK it isn't as bad, but the Government is still paying people to leave farming, which is a disgrace. Liz is right and brave to prioritise growing food over solar panels - let's hope that resolve continues once in office.
    It's a low wage, low skill industry which uses land inefficiently and messes up the environment when done intensively and needs huge amounts of immigrant labour. We should absolutely be out of it, concentrating on industries where we have a comparative advantage instead.
    Feed the population with lithium batteries!
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    eek said:

    I see that Truss/Savile tweet was brought to light by 'Old Holborn', who was a prolific Guido poster and nihilist back in the day. What does that tell us?

    Beyond the fact they are trouble makers for fun and lols not much really.
    This is just nonsensical, look at this
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-15507826

    And the six More on this story links at the bottom, it was like the Queen Mother dying, sorry, passing, until it wasn't.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,434
    edited August 2022
    IshmaelZ said:

    moonshine said:

    As the vaccine programme has already shown us, the benefits of Brexit feedoms (or any freedoms) cannot be 'sought'; they happen. In that regard, they're a bit like lifeboats on an Ocean liner. You don't walk past them sneering and challenge the crew to find a use for them; you're just glad they're there.
    Vaccine roll-out ≠ a benefit of Brexit. We were perfectly at liberty to do our own thing while in the EU.
    You come across as silly saying this because you know perfectly well how it would have played out. Just admit that there have been some items in the plus column but you think there are far more negatives.
    That's simply wrong, and disregards the awkward squad relationship we always had with the EU as members. It would have depended entirely on the PM at the time.
    What awkward squad relationship? Thatcher was in the ground by this time, and her tenure was the last time we were in any way 'awkward' in a meaningful sense - one that didn't involve playing to Sun readers and then quietly capitulating a week later. 'I won't pay this bill' Osborne and 'I won't accept Juncker' Cameron would have jumped at the EU scheme, demanded that 'at least one' of the vaccine factories was in Britain, been told to fuck off, and no more would have been said.
  • mwadamsmwadams Posts: 3,593
    Driver said:

    Well, not in the 26 minutes since someone else posted that link.
    Stop talking the country down, or Rishi's Prevent Militia will have to have a word. 26 minutes is plenty of time for our Glorious Government to increase the Sunshine and Apple Pie quotas.
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,828
    Fishing said:

    Fishing said:

    There is a very big international campaign to get people out of farming, emanating afaik from the WEF and dangerous green factions. In The Netherlands they're shutting farms, resulting in mass protests. In the UK it isn't as bad, but the Government is still paying people to leave farming, which is a disgrace. Liz is right and brave to prioritise growing food over solar panels - let's hope that resolve continues once in office.
    It's a low wage, low skill industry which uses land inefficiently and messes up the environment when done intensively and needs huge amounts of immigrant labour. We should absolutely be out of it, concentrating on industries where we have a comparative advantage instead.
    Idiotic.
    No, the idiotic thing is concentrating on, and subsidising, low wage, failing industries. We should be encouraging success, not reinforcing failure.
    How do you intend to manage without food? Or do you not regard food security as an issue?
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,434
    Nigelb said:

    moonshine said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    moonshine said:

    As the vaccine programme has already shown us, the benefits of Brexit feedoms (or any freedoms) cannot be 'sought'; they happen. In that regard, they're a bit like lifeboats on an Ocean liner. You don't walk past them sneering and challenge the crew to find a use for them; you're just glad they're there.
    Vaccine roll-out ≠ a benefit of Brexit. We were perfectly at liberty to do our own thing while in the EU.
    You come across as silly saying this because you know perfectly well how it would have played out. Just admit that there have been some items in the plus column but you think there are far more negatives.
    That's simply wrong, and disregards the awkward squad relationship we always had with the EU as members. It would have depended entirely on the PM at the time.
    Had we not voted for Brexit and there been any realistic contender as PM other than Johnson than it’s very clear we have been in the eu procurement scheme. Starmer was making political hay about how reckless the govt was being even AFTER Brexit.

    It was a win in the Brexit column. As it turned out it had a fairly fleeting impact because of the extreme hesitation in 2021 to lift all restrictions after the win, and the silly unjustifiable reimposition of them upon omicron. But the uk vaccine procurement no doubt did save lives.
    It's an interesting counterfactual.
    Certainly there was a compulsion to show that we could do stuff on our own, so the 'benefit' is possibly true.
    On the other side of the scales, there might not have been the disgraceful campaign against the AZN vaccine. That might have saved many more lives worldwide.

    In my opinion, the UK should have moved completely over to AZN, giving our Pfizer orders (and the bill) to other nations. I think we'd have saved a packet.
  • OllyTOllyT Posts: 5,006

    So Kansas has voted pro abortion rights:

    https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2022/08/02/us/elections/results-kansas-abortion-amendment.html

    Which means that repealing RvW is working as it should do and perhaps not how some of the GOP expected.

    As far as the GOP is concerned I think the stacking of the SC with social conservatives is going to turn into one of those "be very careful what you wish for" moments.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,924

    So Kansas has voted pro abortion rights:

    https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2022/08/02/us/elections/results-kansas-abortion-amendment.html

    Which means that repealing RvW is working as it should do and perhaps not how some of the GOP expected.

    Yes, the ruling was correct to leave it to the states.

    However for pro life activists even if only 1 or 2 states like Alabama and Mississippi ban abortion that would still be better than the situation under Roe v Wade where abortion on demand was effectively legal US wide.

    They don't really care if the GOP fail to retake Congress and the White House and lose some governors races and state legislatures in the process due to the pro choice backlash
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,434
    mwadams said:

    Driver said:

    Well, not in the 26 minutes since someone else posted that link.
    Stop talking the country down, or Rishi's Prevent Militia will have to have a word. 26 minutes is plenty of time for our Glorious Government to increase the Sunshine and Apple Pie quotas.
    Liz's Tweet is fine - Sunak's is truly Orwellian. Thank God his nasty little campaign is failing. Let's hope he's nowhere near high office in a few week's time.
  • FishingFishing Posts: 5,037
    eek said:

    Fishing said:

    Well there's full employment and good pay rises.

    But the Guardian considers them bad things when the private sector working class get them.
    We've also grown faster than France, Italy or Germany since we left the Single Market:

    https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/sn02784/

    Of course we're scheduled to slow down next year when Sunak's idiotic corporation tax rises kick in.
    The idiotic bit was cutting corporation tax while removing investment allowances.

    The end result was a shift from investing in productivity improvements to throwing cheap labour at the problem in the hope for short term profits.
    Not necessarily. Empirical studies indicate that factor substitutability is pretty low, and capital expenditure which only happens because of the tax system is unlikely to be efficient or economic. Business investment is undoubtedly too low overall in this country, but I doubt that distorting the tax system is the best way to achieve that.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,790
    Babylon 5 on sedition coming in little packets:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T3VA9pZ_kY0
  • Motion text
    That this House mourns the death of Sir Jimmy Savile OBE who has died two days before his 85th birthday; recognises his enormous contribution to charitable giving, raising more than 40 million for charities during his lifetime; appreciates his essential Yorkshire character; remembers the smiles brought to the faces of children who appeared on Jim'll Fix It; enjoyed his choice of music during his time as a disc jockey; and sends its condolences and sympathy to family and friends in Leeds, Yorkshire, the UK and throughout the world.
    https://edm.parliament.uk/early-day-motion/43425/sir-jimmy-savile-obe

    Signatories include one Jeremy Corbyn
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,135
    moonshine said:

    kinabalu said:

    Yes, I was aware of that Truss fandom for Savile. Bit surprised it hasn't been raised before now.

    Because it’s moronic to think that tweet means anything? Are you suggesting that Truss knew Savile was a dirty necrophiliac paedo and still decided to give him a positive word upon his death?
    Course not. But it's a bit dim to say it means NOTHING or to not expect dirty tricks in election campaigns. To me it means she was oblivious to the rumours and dark aura around Jimmy Savile and - worse - is the sort of person who found him an attractive benign persona. This speaks to bad judgement. Not some sort of gamechanger - since there's far more important and relevant and recent evidence of her bad judgement - but, you know, it doesn't look great. Hence why, as I say, I'd have semi expected it to have been dug up and aired before now.
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,717

    Motion text
    That this House mourns the death of Sir Jimmy Savile OBE who has died two days before his 85th birthday; recognises his enormous contribution to charitable giving, raising more than 40 million for charities during his lifetime; appreciates his essential Yorkshire character; remembers the smiles brought to the faces of children who appeared on Jim'll Fix It; enjoyed his choice of music during his time as a disc jockey; and sends its condolences and sympathy to family and friends in Leeds, Yorkshire, the UK and throughout the world.
    https://edm.parliament.uk/early-day-motion/43425/sir-jimmy-savile-obe

    Signatories include one Jeremy Corbyn

    "Motion text" is text for a motion.
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 14,310
    moonshine said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    moonshine said:

    As the vaccine programme has already shown us, the benefits of Brexit feedoms (or any freedoms) cannot be 'sought'; they happen. In that regard, they're a bit like lifeboats on an Ocean liner. You don't walk past them sneering and challenge the crew to find a use for them; you're just glad they're there.
    Vaccine roll-out ≠ a benefit of Brexit. We were perfectly at liberty to do our own thing while in the EU.
    You come across as silly saying this because you know perfectly well how it would have played out. Just admit that there have been some items in the plus column but you think there are far more negatives.
    That's simply wrong, and disregards the awkward squad relationship we always had with the EU as members. It would have depended entirely on the PM at the time.
    Had we not voted for Brexit and there been any realistic contender as PM other than Johnson than it’s very clear we have been in the eu procurement scheme. Starmer was making political hay about how reckless the govt was being even AFTER Brexit.

    It was a win in the Brexit column. As it turned out it had a fairly fleeting impact because of the extreme hesitation in 2021 to lift all restrictions after the win, and the silly unjustifiable reimposition of them upon omicron. But the uk vaccine procurement no doubt did save lives.
    There is a big plot hole in the "Brexit helped us with the vaccines" story. The UK would have most likely, like a couple of other EU members, decided to do it's own thing even tho part of the EU had we voted to Remain.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,957
    edited August 2022

    As the vaccine programme has already shown us, the benefits of Brexit feedoms (or any freedoms) cannot be 'sought'; they happen. In that regard, they're a bit like lifeboats on an Ocean liner. You don't walk past them sneering and challenge the crew to find a use for them; you're just glad they're there.
    Vaccine roll-out ≠ a benefit of Brexit. We were perfectly at liberty to do our own thing while in the EU.
    Its the road not traveled. Yes we would have been at liberty to do as we did, but many suspect we would have been under pressure to stay within the EU procurement. Indeed even at the time the government was criticized for not going with the EU despite Brexit.

    In the end it may seem like it made little difference. I'd suggest that some lives were saved by earlier vaccination, but its impossible to really know.

    Those who hate Brexit will say bollocks, those who love Brexit will claim it as a win (there don't seem many wins around to claim right now).
    You should have more faith in our elected, sovereign government. "The big boy made me do it" is not compelling evidence that you love your country sufficiently deeply.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,175
    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Yes, I was aware of that Truss fandom for Savile. Bit surprised it hasn't been raised before now.

    How is that tweet 'fandom'?

    People *liked* Saville, and he had successfully fought off allegations about the truth in court. Read those obituaries I posted from the day after she posted that tweet.

    If you want to go the other way, just look at Tom Watson's vile campaigns.
    Airing gushing public praise for a celeb isn't fandom iyo? Well there are serviceable alternatives, I suppose.
    So what if she was a fan? My favourite Savile praise is in Rob Brydon's book published just before it all came out:

    Jimmy was something of a hero of mine. Like Basil Brush, he was someone who turned a lot of people off, but to whom I was drawn...I can remember, as though it was last week,...sitting with Jimmy after the show and listening to him dispense his wisdom. I don't say that in a sarcastic way; I've remembered his words to this day. 'Look at me,' he said, 'I can't sing, I can't dance, I can't act. I can do f*** all. But, I turn up at places, I smile, I wave. The punters look at me and say, "Jim's having a good time, therefore so are we."'
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,636

    moonshine said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    moonshine said:

    As the vaccine programme has already shown us, the benefits of Brexit feedoms (or any freedoms) cannot be 'sought'; they happen. In that regard, they're a bit like lifeboats on an Ocean liner. You don't walk past them sneering and challenge the crew to find a use for them; you're just glad they're there.
    Vaccine roll-out ≠ a benefit of Brexit. We were perfectly at liberty to do our own thing while in the EU.
    You come across as silly saying this because you know perfectly well how it would have played out. Just admit that there have been some items in the plus column but you think there are far more negatives.
    That's simply wrong, and disregards the awkward squad relationship we always had with the EU as members. It would have depended entirely on the PM at the time.
    Had we not voted for Brexit and there been any realistic contender as PM other than Johnson than it’s very clear we have been in the eu procurement scheme. Starmer was making political hay about how reckless the govt was being even AFTER Brexit.

    It was a win in the Brexit column. As it turned out it had a fairly fleeting impact because of the extreme hesitation in 2021 to lift all restrictions after the win, and the silly unjustifiable reimposition of them upon omicron. But the uk vaccine procurement no doubt did save lives.
    There is a big plot hole in the "Brexit helped us with the vaccines" story. The UK would have most likely, like a couple of other EU members, decided to do it's own thing even tho part of the EU had we voted to Remain.
    All 27 members were part of the scheme so that’s not true. It prevented any parallel negotiations with companies that Brussels was talking to.
  • nico679nico679 Posts: 6,275
    edited August 2022
    Nigelb said:

    Tory leadership race ‘where we are’ update.





    Are they planning to outlaw the SNP ? :smile:


    Deeply disturbing . I expect two years of the government accusing anyone of criticizing them of being unpatriotic and the right wing press pushing this mantra.

    The Tories in their current form are a danger to UK democracy and need to be removed at the next GE before the UK becomes unrecognizable.

  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,405
    TOPPING said:

    As the vaccine programme has already shown us, the benefits of Brexit feedoms (or any freedoms) cannot be 'sought'; they happen. In that regard, they're a bit like lifeboats on an Ocean liner. You don't walk past them sneering and challenge the crew to find a use for them; you're just glad they're there.
    Vaccine roll-out ≠ a benefit of Brexit. We were perfectly at liberty to do our own thing while in the EU.
    Its the road not traveled. Yes we would have been at liberty to do as we did, but many suspect we would have been under pressure to stay within the EU procurement. Indeed even at the time the government was criticized for not going with the EU despite Brexit.

    In the end it may seem like it made little difference. I'd suggest that some lives were saved by earlier vaccination, but its impossible to really know.

    Those who hate Brexit will say bollocks, those who love Brexit will claim it as a win (there don't seem many wins around to claim right now).
    You should have more faith in our elected, sovereign government. "The big boy made me do it" is not compelling evidence that you love your country sufficiently deeply.
    Have you seen our government for the last three years? (And indeed before?)
  • DriverDriver Posts: 4,963

    moonshine said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    moonshine said:

    As the vaccine programme has already shown us, the benefits of Brexit feedoms (or any freedoms) cannot be 'sought'; they happen. In that regard, they're a bit like lifeboats on an Ocean liner. You don't walk past them sneering and challenge the crew to find a use for them; you're just glad they're there.
    Vaccine roll-out ≠ a benefit of Brexit. We were perfectly at liberty to do our own thing while in the EU.
    You come across as silly saying this because you know perfectly well how it would have played out. Just admit that there have been some items in the plus column but you think there are far more negatives.
    That's simply wrong, and disregards the awkward squad relationship we always had with the EU as members. It would have depended entirely on the PM at the time.
    Had we not voted for Brexit and there been any realistic contender as PM other than Johnson than it’s very clear we have been in the eu procurement scheme. Starmer was making political hay about how reckless the govt was being even AFTER Brexit.

    It was a win in the Brexit column. As it turned out it had a fairly fleeting impact because of the extreme hesitation in 2021 to lift all restrictions after the win, and the silly unjustifiable reimposition of them upon omicron. But the uk vaccine procurement no doubt did save lives.
    There is a big plot hole in the "Brexit helped us with the vaccines" story. The UK would have most likely, like a couple of other EU members, decided to do it's own thing even tho part of the EU had we voted to Remain.
    Except we wouldn't have, as the the political pressure to show we were good Europeans would have been irresistible after a Remain vote.

    Which is obvious to anyone who was paying attention in 2020, who couldn't miss the amount of pressure there was to join the EU scheme even though we had left.
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,717
    nico679 said:

    Nigelb said:

    Tory leadership race ‘where we are’ update.





    Are they planning to outlaw the SNP ? :smile:


    Deeply disturbing . I expect two years of the government accusing anyone of criticizing them of being unpatriotic and the right wing press pushing this mantra.

    The Tories in their current form are a danger to UK democracy and need to be removed at the next GE before the UK becomes unrecognizable.

    I want to 'like' this but that may be misinterpreted.

  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    kinabalu said:

    moonshine said:

    kinabalu said:

    Yes, I was aware of that Truss fandom for Savile. Bit surprised it hasn't been raised before now.

    Because it’s moronic to think that tweet means anything? Are you suggesting that Truss knew Savile was a dirty necrophiliac paedo and still decided to give him a positive word upon his death?
    Course not. But it's a bit dim to say it means NOTHING or to not expect dirty tricks in election campaigns. To me it means she was oblivious to the rumours and dark aura around Jimmy Savile and - worse - is the sort of person who found him an attractive benign persona. This speaks to bad judgement. Not some sort of gamechanger - since there's far more important and relevant and recent evidence of her bad judgement - but, you know, it doesn't look great. Hence why, as I say, I'd have semi expected it to have been dug up and aired before now.
    Unusual to see you digging so assiduously in so deep a hole. Just search Jimmy Savile tributes and be amazed at the outpourings. Prince of Wales, DG BBC, bloody everyone. With, with hindsight, some notable exceptions - Downing Street kept very quiet. But he is a fellow Leeds local of Truss, and Always in good spirits is pretty restrained stuff. Nothing to see here.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,592
    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Yes, I was aware of that Truss fandom for Savile. Bit surprised it hasn't been raised before now.

    How is that tweet 'fandom'?

    People *liked* Saville, and he had successfully fought off allegations about the truth in court. Read those obituaries I posted from the day after she posted that tweet.

    If you want to go the other way, just look at Tom Watson's vile campaigns.
    Airing gushing public praise for a celeb isn't fandom iyo? Well there are serviceable alternatives, I suppose.
    You and I have very different definitions of 'gushing' and 'fandom', then.

    As I said, read the obituaries from the day after he died (the day after her tweet).
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,135

    Nigelb said:

    Tory leadership race ‘where we are’ update.





    Are they planning to outlaw the SNP ? :smile:


    I believe internment camps with compulsory viewing of Dad’s Army and loudspeakers blasting out Vera Lynn are part of the master plan.
    Glasgow will be first on the list, I think, so perhaps time to "make plans". Bag packed and a few thousand in readies.
  • IshmaelZ said:

    kinabalu said:

    moonshine said:

    kinabalu said:

    Yes, I was aware of that Truss fandom for Savile. Bit surprised it hasn't been raised before now.

    Because it’s moronic to think that tweet means anything? Are you suggesting that Truss knew Savile was a dirty necrophiliac paedo and still decided to give him a positive word upon his death?
    Course not. But it's a bit dim to say it means NOTHING or to not expect dirty tricks in election campaigns. To me it means she was oblivious to the rumours and dark aura around Jimmy Savile and - worse - is the sort of person who found him an attractive benign persona. This speaks to bad judgement. Not some sort of gamechanger - since there's far more important and relevant and recent evidence of her bad judgement - but, you know, it doesn't look great. Hence why, as I say, I'd have semi expected it to have been dug up and aired before now.
    Unusual to see you digging so assiduously in so deep a hole. Just search Jimmy Savile tributes and be amazed at the outpourings. Prince of Wales, DG BBC, bloody everyone. With, with hindsight, some notable exceptions - Downing Street kept very quiet. But he is a fellow Leeds local of Truss, and Always in good spirits is pretty restrained stuff. Nothing to see here.
    Charles Kennedy MP
    The former Liberal Democrat leader and MP for Ross, Skye and Lochaber said Sir Jimmy was "a true and long-standing friend to the West Highlands over decades of diligence and decency".

    "When not resident at his home in Glencoe, he made it available for mountain rescue use," he said.

    "It was typical of the man that he never drew attention to such characteristic generosity. A sad loss indeed."
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,592
    On another point: there was a rumour yesterday that the Russians had suffered a local difficulty in Kherson.

    They got a train to an offloading point. They set off a smoke screen around the train whilst it was unloaded (presumably to prevent a UAV from seeing it and giving accurate coordinates to artillery). Fortunately, either one of the pyrotechnics started a fire, or in the smoke something was mishandled, and part of the train went afire.

    I've no idea if this is true, but I'd so love it to be.
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 14,310
    Driver said:

    moonshine said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    moonshine said:

    As the vaccine programme has already shown us, the benefits of Brexit feedoms (or any freedoms) cannot be 'sought'; they happen. In that regard, they're a bit like lifeboats on an Ocean liner. You don't walk past them sneering and challenge the crew to find a use for them; you're just glad they're there.
    Vaccine roll-out ≠ a benefit of Brexit. We were perfectly at liberty to do our own thing while in the EU.
    You come across as silly saying this because you know perfectly well how it would have played out. Just admit that there have been some items in the plus column but you think there are far more negatives.
    That's simply wrong, and disregards the awkward squad relationship we always had with the EU as members. It would have depended entirely on the PM at the time.
    Had we not voted for Brexit and there been any realistic contender as PM other than Johnson than it’s very clear we have been in the eu procurement scheme. Starmer was making political hay about how reckless the govt was being even AFTER Brexit.

    It was a win in the Brexit column. As it turned out it had a fairly fleeting impact because of the extreme hesitation in 2021 to lift all restrictions after the win, and the silly unjustifiable reimposition of them upon omicron. But the uk vaccine procurement no doubt did save lives.
    There is a big plot hole in the "Brexit helped us with the vaccines" story. The UK would have most likely, like a couple of other EU members, decided to do it's own thing even tho part of the EU had we voted to Remain.
    Except we wouldn't have, as the the political pressure to show we were good Europeans would have been irresistible after a Remain vote.

    Which is obvious to anyone who was paying attention in 2020, who couldn't miss the amount of pressure there was to join the EU scheme even though we had left.
    That is what you want to believe. You are like one of those few children in the class that still believes in Santa. You are desperately clinging onto anything that suggests Brexit gives Britain an advantage, when the reality is that Brexit having any benefits is for the fairies. Here is an inconvenient article for you: https://www.instituteforgovernment.org.uk/blog/covid-vaccine-decisions-brexit
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,070
    Given the dependence of Russian logistics on the rail system, this bodes reasonably well for Ukraine's upcoming offensive.

    https://twitter.com/Hromadske/status/1554751858744475648
    It is highly unlikely the railway connection between Kherson and Crimea remains operational after the Ukrainian strike on Russian ammo train in Kherson Oblast, reports the UK Intelligence
  • KeystoneKeystone Posts: 127

    As the vaccine programme has already shown us, the benefits of Brexit feedoms (or any freedoms) cannot be 'sought'; they happen. In that regard, they're a bit like lifeboats on an Ocean liner. You don't walk past them sneering and challenge the crew to find a use for them; you're just glad they're there.
    Love it. The ineffability of Brexit benefits - it would be impossible to describe them.

    Like something out of medieval Catholic theology.

    Lucky we have some clergymen to intermediate for the rest of us, no?
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,135

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Yes, I was aware of that Truss fandom for Savile. Bit surprised it hasn't been raised before now.

    How is that tweet 'fandom'?

    People *liked* Saville, and he had successfully fought off allegations about the truth in court. Read those obituaries I posted from the day after she posted that tweet.

    If you want to go the other way, just look at Tom Watson's vile campaigns.
    Airing gushing public praise for a celeb isn't fandom iyo? Well there are serviceable alternatives, I suppose.
    You and I have very different definitions of 'gushing' and 'fandom', then.

    As I said, read the obituaries from the day after he died (the day after her tweet).
    Obituaries are slightly different though. They're a 'formal' thing with an etiquette of stressing the positives. The person writing them is usually just doing a job of work.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 11,786
    Driver said:

    moonshine said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    moonshine said:

    As the vaccine programme has already shown us, the benefits of Brexit feedoms (or any freedoms) cannot be 'sought'; they happen. In that regard, they're a bit like lifeboats on an Ocean liner. You don't walk past them sneering and challenge the crew to find a use for them; you're just glad they're there.
    Vaccine roll-out ≠ a benefit of Brexit. We were perfectly at liberty to do our own thing while in the EU.
    You come across as silly saying this because you know perfectly well how it would have played out. Just admit that there have been some items in the plus column but you think there are far more negatives.
    That's simply wrong, and disregards the awkward squad relationship we always had with the EU as members. It would have depended entirely on the PM at the time.
    Had we not voted for Brexit and there been any realistic contender as PM other than Johnson than it’s very clear we have been in the eu procurement scheme. Starmer was making political hay about how reckless the govt was being even AFTER Brexit.

    It was a win in the Brexit column. As it turned out it had a fairly fleeting impact because of the extreme hesitation in 2021 to lift all restrictions after the win, and the silly unjustifiable reimposition of them upon omicron. But the uk vaccine procurement no doubt did save lives.
    There is a big plot hole in the "Brexit helped us with the vaccines" story. The UK would have most likely, like a couple of other EU members, decided to do it's own thing even tho part of the EU had we voted to Remain.
    Except we wouldn't have, as the the political pressure to show we were good Europeans would have been irresistible after a Remain vote.

    Which is obvious to anyone who was paying attention in 2020, who couldn't miss the amount of pressure there was to join the EU scheme even though we had left.
    What nonsense. You are just making stuff up. We did lots of stuff independent of the EU while in the EU and as we had expertise in the area I don't think there is any chance we would have just followed the EU scheme.

    You are projecting your bias of those who wanted to remain as just being EU slaves. Most remainers don't think the EU is/was perfect, they just preferred it to leaving on the balance of benefits.
  • DriverDriver Posts: 4,963

    Driver said:

    moonshine said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    moonshine said:

    As the vaccine programme has already shown us, the benefits of Brexit feedoms (or any freedoms) cannot be 'sought'; they happen. In that regard, they're a bit like lifeboats on an Ocean liner. You don't walk past them sneering and challenge the crew to find a use for them; you're just glad they're there.
    Vaccine roll-out ≠ a benefit of Brexit. We were perfectly at liberty to do our own thing while in the EU.
    You come across as silly saying this because you know perfectly well how it would have played out. Just admit that there have been some items in the plus column but you think there are far more negatives.
    That's simply wrong, and disregards the awkward squad relationship we always had with the EU as members. It would have depended entirely on the PM at the time.
    Had we not voted for Brexit and there been any realistic contender as PM other than Johnson than it’s very clear we have been in the eu procurement scheme. Starmer was making political hay about how reckless the govt was being even AFTER Brexit.

    It was a win in the Brexit column. As it turned out it had a fairly fleeting impact because of the extreme hesitation in 2021 to lift all restrictions after the win, and the silly unjustifiable reimposition of them upon omicron. But the uk vaccine procurement no doubt did save lives.
    There is a big plot hole in the "Brexit helped us with the vaccines" story. The UK would have most likely, like a couple of other EU members, decided to do it's own thing even tho part of the EU had we voted to Remain.
    Except we wouldn't have, as the the political pressure to show we were good Europeans would have been irresistible after a Remain vote.

    Which is obvious to anyone who was paying attention in 2020, who couldn't miss the amount of pressure there was to join the EU scheme even though we had left.
    That is what you want to believe.
    Backed up with evidence of having paid attention to our relationship with the EU for more than 30 years.

    Former Remainers saying "we could have done it anyway" are technically true, but massively miss the point. We wouldn't have.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    Tory leadership race ‘where we are’ update.




    Sunak's an airhead. I think I have detected a genuine unconscious bias in myself in that it took me 10 minutes to draw that conclusion whereas it would have been an instantaneous reaction if the text were swapped around.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,070

    Nigelb said:

    .

    Nigelb said:

    eek said:

    You would have thought someone would have spent a while checking Liz's twitter for awkward tweets


    I am no Truss fan, but I wonder what saddo found that? There really are people with such sad lives that they spend hours trawling through opponents old tweets from a decade ago to find a tweet that was based on the passing of a celebrity that at that time most people did not know was a pedo.
    Good grief, can you imagine the frothing rage the Sun, Mail and Express would get themselves into if that tweet had been from Starmer?
    QTWAIN.

    When he passed it wasn't public knowledge that he was a paedo, that came out post-mortem. That a politician would say RIP to a celebrity is neither here nor there.

    What's far more concerning is those who did know or see the evidence he was a paedo but did nothing about it, or covered it up.
    QTWAIN?

    You cannot imagine the frothing rage the Sun, Mail and Express would get themselves into if that tweet had been from Starmer?

    Along with half of PB.

    It's not as though anyone's arguing this is disqualificatory. Though it might prompt those who admire her unfiltered nature to think about the potential downside as well.

    What potential downside? She expressed vague sympathy that someone she half knew had died. Why on earth would she, or anyone else, feel the need to cover up this fact after Savile's crimes were revealed? The idea of doing so borders on unhinged.
    See my comment upthread about her compulsion to say stuff without thinking.
    You mean this comment?

    "It's not as though anyone's arguing this is disqualificatory. Though it might prompt those who admire her unfiltered nature to think about the potential downside as well."

    How the heck is saying a little anecdote on a famous person on the day they died in any way 'unfiltered' a year *before* it was revealed he was evil?

    May we have a list of other famous people who we should be careful posting reminiscences about because they've done evil things that are not yet public? No? And that's why your comment is wrong.
    No, that was the comment to which @Luckyguy1983 replied.

    Rather this:
    Well it does tell us that she's been a somewhat incontinent Tweeter for quite some time.
    And yesterday's contretemps indicate she still hasn't learned to think before pronouncing.


    It's not a big deal , but what struck me about the tweet was that it's as much about her as Savile.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,592
    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Yes, I was aware of that Truss fandom for Savile. Bit surprised it hasn't been raised before now.

    How is that tweet 'fandom'?

    People *liked* Saville, and he had successfully fought off allegations about the truth in court. Read those obituaries I posted from the day after she posted that tweet.

    If you want to go the other way, just look at Tom Watson's vile campaigns.
    Airing gushing public praise for a celeb isn't fandom iyo? Well there are serviceable alternatives, I suppose.
    You and I have very different definitions of 'gushing' and 'fandom', then.

    As I said, read the obituaries from the day after he died (the day after her tweet).
    Obituaries are slightly different though. They're a 'formal' thing with an etiquette of stressing the positives. The person writing them is usually just doing a job of work.
    Just read the other comments made at the time, then. He was not seen as being evil at that time, so what's wrong with posting a minor personal anecdote about him when he died?

    I have a personal anecdote about Bernie Ecclestone. It is a positive, pleasant one about him. Yet I always temper it with the fact I realise he is (at best) controversial, and at worst a raving sh**bag. If he were to die, and if I was active on Twitter, I'd probably post it in a positive manner.
  • HYUFD said:

    So Kansas has voted pro abortion rights:

    https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2022/08/02/us/elections/results-kansas-abortion-amendment.html

    Which means that repealing RvW is working as it should do and perhaps not how some of the GOP expected.

    Yes, the ruling was correct to leave it to the states.

    However for pro life activists even if only 1 or 2 states like Alabama and Mississippi ban abortion that would still be better than the situation under Roe v Wade where abortion on demand was effectively legal US wide.

    They don't really care if the GOP fail to retake Congress and the White House and lose some governors races and state legislatures in the process due to the pro choice backlash
    They'll certainly care in Congress passes some pro choice legislation in that scenario.

    It really is not in the interests of the pro lifers for the GOP to be either obsessional or extreme about abortion.
  • DriverDriver Posts: 4,963
    kjh said:

    Driver said:

    moonshine said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    moonshine said:

    As the vaccine programme has already shown us, the benefits of Brexit feedoms (or any freedoms) cannot be 'sought'; they happen. In that regard, they're a bit like lifeboats on an Ocean liner. You don't walk past them sneering and challenge the crew to find a use for them; you're just glad they're there.
    Vaccine roll-out ≠ a benefit of Brexit. We were perfectly at liberty to do our own thing while in the EU.
    You come across as silly saying this because you know perfectly well how it would have played out. Just admit that there have been some items in the plus column but you think there are far more negatives.
    That's simply wrong, and disregards the awkward squad relationship we always had with the EU as members. It would have depended entirely on the PM at the time.
    Had we not voted for Brexit and there been any realistic contender as PM other than Johnson than it’s very clear we have been in the eu procurement scheme. Starmer was making political hay about how reckless the govt was being even AFTER Brexit.

    It was a win in the Brexit column. As it turned out it had a fairly fleeting impact because of the extreme hesitation in 2021 to lift all restrictions after the win, and the silly unjustifiable reimposition of them upon omicron. But the uk vaccine procurement no doubt did save lives.
    There is a big plot hole in the "Brexit helped us with the vaccines" story. The UK would have most likely, like a couple of other EU members, decided to do it's own thing even tho part of the EU had we voted to Remain.
    Except we wouldn't have, as the the political pressure to show we were good Europeans would have been irresistible after a Remain vote.

    Which is obvious to anyone who was paying attention in 2020, who couldn't miss the amount of pressure there was to join the EU scheme even though we had left.
    What nonsense. You are just making stuff up. We did lots of stuff independent of the EU while in the EU and as we had expertise in the area I don't think there is any chance we would have just followed the EU scheme.
    Then you obviously weren't paying attention.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,831
    So, faster growth, record exports, full employment, higher wages. It's been a disaster right enough.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    .

    Nigelb said:

    eek said:

    You would have thought someone would have spent a while checking Liz's twitter for awkward tweets


    I am no Truss fan, but I wonder what saddo found that? There really are people with such sad lives that they spend hours trawling through opponents old tweets from a decade ago to find a tweet that was based on the passing of a celebrity that at that time most people did not know was a pedo.
    Good grief, can you imagine the frothing rage the Sun, Mail and Express would get themselves into if that tweet had been from Starmer?
    QTWAIN.

    When he passed it wasn't public knowledge that he was a paedo, that came out post-mortem. That a politician would say RIP to a celebrity is neither here nor there.

    What's far more concerning is those who did know or see the evidence he was a paedo but did nothing about it, or covered it up.
    QTWAIN?

    You cannot imagine the frothing rage the Sun, Mail and Express would get themselves into if that tweet had been from Starmer?

    Along with half of PB.

    It's not as though anyone's arguing this is disqualificatory. Though it might prompt those who admire her unfiltered nature to think about the potential downside as well.

    What potential downside? She expressed vague sympathy that someone she half knew had died. Why on earth would she, or anyone else, feel the need to cover up this fact after Savile's crimes were revealed? The idea of doing so borders on unhinged.
    See my comment upthread about her compulsion to say stuff without thinking.
    You mean this comment?

    "It's not as though anyone's arguing this is disqualificatory. Though it might prompt those who admire her unfiltered nature to think about the potential downside as well."

    How the heck is saying a little anecdote on a famous person on the day they died in any way 'unfiltered' a year *before* it was revealed he was evil?

    May we have a list of other famous people who we should be careful posting reminiscences about because they've done evil things that are not yet public? No? And that's why your comment is wrong.
    No, that was the comment to which @Luckyguy1983 replied.

    Rather this:
    Well it does tell us that she's been a somewhat incontinent Tweeter for quite some time.
    And yesterday's contretemps indicate she still hasn't learned to think before pronouncing.


    It's not a big deal , but what struck me about the tweet was that it's as much about her as Savile.
    Digging party growing.

  • Bundeskanzler Olaf Scholz
    @Bundeskanzler

    Regierungsvertreter*in aus Deutschland
    Bei @Siemens_Energy konnte ich mit eigenen Augen sehen: Die gewartete Turbine ist da und jederzeit einsatzbereit. Sie muss nur von Russland angefordert werden. Es gibt also keine technischen Gründe, die Gaslieferungen zu reduzieren.

    At @Siemens_Energy I could see with my own eyes: The serviced turbine is there and ready for use at any time. It only has to be requested from Russia. So there are no technical reasons to reduce gas supplies.

    https://twitter.com/Bundeskanzler/status/1554749662594211841

    No technical reasons Olaf, just the moral one of funding an evil, murderous tyrant
  • moonshine said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    moonshine said:

    As the vaccine programme has already shown us, the benefits of Brexit feedoms (or any freedoms) cannot be 'sought'; they happen. In that regard, they're a bit like lifeboats on an Ocean liner. You don't walk past them sneering and challenge the crew to find a use for them; you're just glad they're there.
    Vaccine roll-out ≠ a benefit of Brexit. We were perfectly at liberty to do our own thing while in the EU.
    You come across as silly saying this because you know perfectly well how it would have played out. Just admit that there have been some items in the plus column but you think there are far more negatives.
    That's simply wrong, and disregards the awkward squad relationship we always had with the EU as members. It would have depended entirely on the PM at the time.
    Had we not voted for Brexit and there been any realistic contender as PM other than Johnson than it’s very clear we have been in the eu procurement scheme. Starmer was making political hay about how reckless the govt was being even AFTER Brexit.

    It was a win in the Brexit column. As it turned out it had a fairly fleeting impact because of the extreme hesitation in 2021 to lift all restrictions after the win, and the silly unjustifiable reimposition of them upon omicron. But the uk vaccine procurement no doubt did save lives.
    There is a big plot hole in the "Brexit helped us with the vaccines" story. The UK would have most likely, like a couple of other EU members, decided to do it's own thing even tho part of the EU had we voted to Remain.
    No, the vax story plot hole is that if it were not for Brexit, the EMA would still be (more-or-less) the MHRA.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Yes, I was aware of that Truss fandom for Savile. Bit surprised it hasn't been raised before now.

    How is that tweet 'fandom'?

    People *liked* Saville, and he had successfully fought off allegations about the truth in court. Read those obituaries I posted from the day after she posted that tweet.

    If you want to go the other way, just look at Tom Watson's vile campaigns.
    Airing gushing public praise for a celeb isn't fandom iyo? Well there are serviceable alternatives, I suppose.
    You and I have very different definitions of 'gushing' and 'fandom', then.

    As I said, read the obituaries from the day after he died (the day after her tweet).
    Obituaries are slightly different though. They're a 'formal' thing with an etiquette of stressing the positives. The person writing them is usually just doing a job of work.
    "Tributes" are entirely voluntary.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,592
    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    .

    Nigelb said:

    eek said:

    You would have thought someone would have spent a while checking Liz's twitter for awkward tweets


    I am no Truss fan, but I wonder what saddo found that? There really are people with such sad lives that they spend hours trawling through opponents old tweets from a decade ago to find a tweet that was based on the passing of a celebrity that at that time most people did not know was a pedo.
    Good grief, can you imagine the frothing rage the Sun, Mail and Express would get themselves into if that tweet had been from Starmer?
    QTWAIN.

    When he passed it wasn't public knowledge that he was a paedo, that came out post-mortem. That a politician would say RIP to a celebrity is neither here nor there.

    What's far more concerning is those who did know or see the evidence he was a paedo but did nothing about it, or covered it up.
    QTWAIN?

    You cannot imagine the frothing rage the Sun, Mail and Express would get themselves into if that tweet had been from Starmer?

    Along with half of PB.

    It's not as though anyone's arguing this is disqualificatory. Though it might prompt those who admire her unfiltered nature to think about the potential downside as well.

    What potential downside? She expressed vague sympathy that someone she half knew had died. Why on earth would she, or anyone else, feel the need to cover up this fact after Savile's crimes were revealed? The idea of doing so borders on unhinged.
    See my comment upthread about her compulsion to say stuff without thinking.
    You mean this comment?

    "It's not as though anyone's arguing this is disqualificatory. Though it might prompt those who admire her unfiltered nature to think about the potential downside as well."

    How the heck is saying a little anecdote on a famous person on the day they died in any way 'unfiltered' a year *before* it was revealed he was evil?

    May we have a list of other famous people who we should be careful posting reminiscences about because they've done evil things that are not yet public? No? And that's why your comment is wrong.
    No, that was the comment to which @Luckyguy1983 replied.

    Rather this:
    Well it does tell us that she's been a somewhat incontinent Tweeter for quite some time.
    And yesterday's contretemps indicate she still hasn't learned to think before pronouncing.


    It's not a big deal , but what struck me about the tweet was that it's as much about her as Savile.
    That's what happens when someone you have met dies. You think about them and how you related to them.
This discussion has been closed.