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Is the British public the new Édith Piaf? – politicalbetting.com

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  • DriverDriver Posts: 4,522

    Thanks for delivering this pair, Tory MPs and Daily Mail.

    Thanks a fucking bunch.

    The worst thing about Truss is that if/when she wins, she's provided so much material for Labour's attack messages.
    Which shouldn't matter, if people were able to ignore the crap that gets thrown around and ask what Labour would actually do.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 23,943
    Endillion said:

    Endillion said:

    Get on with it! We want to hear from the candidates

    Yes, we don't need to hear the audience's problems. We know them; we often share them.
    Yes, but Rishi doesn't.
    I doubt the average voter cares. Boris is a millionaire who owns four homes and won an 80-seat majority.
    Which was fine when Brexit was the #1 issue at the heart of the election, and not fine if the key issue of the next one is cost of living.
    In 2010 after the GFC, David Cameron's £30 million did not stop him getting to Number 10. In 1979, with high inflation and unemployment, the millionaire Mrs Thatcher entered Downing Street. Voters don't care.
  • ohnotnowohnotnow Posts: 2,806
    God, Rishi is losing this in real time. Talking over Liz, the host, the guests. No matter if what he says is right or wrong, he's coming across as a bully.
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 8,480
    edited July 2022
    Sunak is winning just through greater airtime and exposure so far, i would say. Truss seems less combative than I would expect at dealing with all the domination efforts so far.
  • Driver said:

    Thanks for delivering this pair, Tory MPs and Daily Mail.

    Thanks a fucking bunch.

    The worst thing about Truss is that if/when she wins, she's provided so much material for Labour's attack messages.
    Which shouldn't matter, if people were able to ignore the crap that gets thrown around and ask what Labour would actually do.
    Why do you care. You’ll vote Tory anyway
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,094
    Neither of them has much by way of common touch. It’s politician-speak from both sides and the audience, sitting there worrying about their fuel bills and the rest, must be wondering why they bothered coming.
  • PJHPJH Posts: 443
    At the half way point I don't think I would be very worried about either opponent if I was Starmer, but I would lose sleep about the state of the country I'm likely to inherit
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 27,016
    I know that Sunak has been a bit I AM TALKING OVER YOU. OK, a lot. But Trusster is doing a brilliant cosplay of bee-chewing glarebot. Every time someone quotes her words and actions back to her.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    Taz said:

    Give those two weapons and let them fight it out

    Cage match with barbed wire baseball bats, WWE style.
    interesting
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,812
    They are in Stoke and nobody has mentioned the astonishing success of Bet365.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,072
    I’ve turned it off. I wonder where I can emigrate to.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,544

    kle4 said:

    Sandpit said:

    glw said:

    Shares in France’s Eutelsat slump after it confirms OneWeb merger talks
    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2022/jul/25/france-eutelsat-uk-satellite-firm-oneweb-elon-musk-starlink

    Oh and the British government will have all sorts of handy vetos over the merged company.

    Rishi has quite possibly played an absolute blinder.

    It does rather look like the LEO constellations data provision market will be

    1) Starlink
    2) OneWeb - being actually operational and everything. Being the alternative to Starlink, in OneWebs chosen markets is probably quite a good business plan.
    3) Kuiper - if Jeff can ever get his rockets up.
    Kuiper will happen. Even *If* New Glenn never gets to orbit, Kuiper will launch, as Kuiper is not dependent on NG. It's Kuiper and Oneweb's USP...

    Also note sex-pest Musk's post that Starlink depends on the unlaunched Starship... (*)

    (*) I don't believe that for one minute. he was just sh*tting on the employees he could not sh*g.
    It may happen - the problem is persistent non-delivery. It is hard to think that the slow pace at Blue Origin may be matched by the satellites for Kuiper taking ages.

    Remember when Surrey Satellites saved Galileo’s bacon? Just…

    Starlink V2 is about getting an unassailable lead - even if Bezos is buying all the non Starship launch capacity on the planet, he can’t compete. Can’t solve that problem with money - he’d need throw weight. Which won’t be available for any price. Unless he launches on Starship
    As ever, you are a little too pro-Musk and a little too anti- his rivals. If you had not noticed, SS has not launched, let alone reached orbit. They're nearly as late as NG. And Raptor 2 isn't looking that good.
    Starlink is in operation now. Thousands of satellites. Hundreds of thousands of actual users etc. approval to operate in many countries. Uplink stations in many countries. More satellites being launched every week. Literally.

    OneWeb is now beginning to come into service. Satellites in orbit, ground stations up and running, approval granted by various countries.

    Kuiper - no satellites. No ground stations. No users. No approvals.

    Currently just OneWeb and Starlink are in the game.

    Not sure what you means about Raptor 2 - plenty of videos from the fence at McGregor of multi hundred second runs, thrust vectoring and everything…
    There are plenty of videos of BE-4 as well, with the same criteria. And note they are on Raptor *2* because Raptor *1* did not cut the mustard. And they have blown three Raptor 2's in the last few months.

    Now, this might mean they're pushing the limits. Or it could be a sign the program is in trouble. But bear in mind NG has seven BE-4 engines on its first stage. Super Heavy has 33 (*). As the N1 shows, even with protection, the failure of one engine can doom the rocket.

    SpaceX has a great record in such things. But they are really pushing the limits of the technology, and they may be in for a world of pain. And tech is filled with companies that were leaders who vanished. I doubt that will happen with SpaceX, but don't swallow the Musk Kool-Aid.

    (*) According to Wiki; it regularly changes.
    The main problem with the N1 was lack of funding - they were trying for all up testing, but lacked the funds to lose the first 1/2 dozen boosters. Some of their stuff was mad even by SpaceX throw-it-at-the-sky standards - explosively opened valves, which couldn’t be reset. So completely untested engines off the production line, first flight was first fire…

    The comments from those who’ve worked at SpaceX and were involved with them (as both competitors and helpers) all agree on one thing - it takes years to build an organisation that can launch orbital rockets. And it isn’t something you can create without launching to orbit. Blue Origin is years behind - they haven’t finalised the design of New Glenn to the point of building tooling - they’ve built some test tanks. They really need the experience that some of the small launcher companies have already got - flying rockets. There’s no substitute.
    From memory (there's an online book about it written by an US/?Indian? chap), the N1 was meant to have a dozen+ launches before it successfully got to orbit. The political will - and hence financing - ran out.

    As I keep on saying, you seem too down on Blue Origin, and far too *up* on Musk's ventures.

    I want both to succeed. In fact, it's vital they both do.

    Edit: 'Challenge to Apollo' by Asif A. Siddiqi. Available for free online, and a great resource.

    Part 1:
    https://history.nasa.gov/SP-4408pt1.pdf
    Part 2:
    https://history.nasa.gov/SP-4408pt2.pdf
    If I may, here's a section on what it's like when an Apollo or SuperHeavy-sized rocket goes boom near the pad:

    "Only in the trench did I understand the sense of the expression "your heart in your mouth." Something quite improbable was being created all around--the steppe was trembling like a vibration test thundering, rumbling, whistling, gnashing-- mixed together in some terrible, seemingly unending cacophony. The trench proved to be so shallow and unreliable that one wanted to burrow into the sand so as not to hear this nightmare.., the thick wave from the explosion passed over us, sweeping away and leveling everything. Behind it came hot metal raining down from above. Pieces of the rocket were thrown ten kilometers away, and large windows were shattered in structures
    40 kilometers away. ,_ 400 kilogram spherical tank landed on the roof o[ the installation and testing wing. seven kilometers from the launch pad.

    By some estimates, the strength of the explosion was close to 250 tons of TNT--not a nuclear explosion, but certainly the most powerful explosion ever in the history of rocketry. The booster had lifted off to a height of 200 meters before falling over and exploding on the launch pad itself, about twenty-three seconds after launch. The emergency rescue system fired in the nick of time, at T+ 14.5 seconds, to shoot the descent apparatus of the payload two kilometers from the pad, thus saving it from destruction. Remarkably, no doubt because of the
    stringent safety precautions, there were no fatalities or injuries, although the physical devastation was phenomenal. When the first teams arrived near the pad in the early-morning hours of July 4, there was only carnage left behind:
    We arrived at the fueling station and were horrified--the windows and doors were smashed out, the iron entrance gate was askew, the equipment was scattered about with the light o[ dawn and was turned to stone--the steppe was literally strewn withdead animals and birds. Where so many o[ them came [rom and how they appeared in
    such quantities at the station I still do not understand.'

    And they reckon that only a small fraction of the fuel on the rocket went boom.
    Stand back from the window, when the rocket goes boom.
    https://youtube.com/watch?v=wX5GD1N7bEw
    The Soviet lack of understanding of basic safety was a feature of their rocket programs

    If you don’t mind watching humans burning to death - https://youtu.be/_ybnj4jcnwg
    The little I read of either space programme, but particularly the Soviet one, the more I'm amazed anyone made it up there and back in their death traps.
    Very true.

    But not just in Russia: Brazil had a really nasty one in 2003, killing 19 people. This is one thing I fear with SpaceX's SH/SS development: failing frequently is fine until it is not.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VLS-1_V03
    The trick is not having people close to where you are playing with propellants.

    That and flight termination systems make rocketry safe. A kiloton or 2 on the horizon is just a loud bang.

    The Brazilian thing was stupid negligence of the most basic sort.
    Also see the event where Virgin Galactic's friends killed three engineers in an explosion.

    Or the event this year where another 'emergent' rocket company had an event with people nearby, fortunately without casualties. Can't find a link immediately, but they got *lots* of criticism...
    I’ll refrain from commenting too much on the Virgin thing. He likes to sue.

    The engineers were

    1) pumping around multiple tons of a known monopropellant. AKA an explosive.
    2) they were unaware of the pressure/temperature issues documented in the literature about said propellant.
    3) they had no temperature measurement or control on the propellant tanks
    4) they had done no worst case (or any case) study to work out a safe zone.
    5) they did their tests with people nearby. For no requirement or reason.
    6) it was a blazing hot day in the desert, and they had no idea what that was doing to their test rig.

    EDIT - do you mean those idiots who were running a giant blow torch they called a rocket motor, while trying to kill themselves? Complete with hiding behind a small hummock of earth about 6 feet from their “test”?

    I’ll stop there…
    Indeed. But the fact they were in that position was down to the company. Scaled, I think.

    Don't blame them for their actions; blame the company that put them in that position.
  • UnpopularUnpopular Posts: 775
    IanB2 said:

    Neither of them has much by way of common touch. It’s politician-speak from both sides and the audience, sitting there worrying about their fuel bills and the rest, must be wondering why they bothered coming.

    He's speaking more politic than she is. I think she's got it based on that.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,540
    And again Liz Truss keeps saying Levelling up and recession is personal to her because she experienced the pain or the 1980s and 90s in Paisley and Leeds. But somehow she doesn’t seem to be mentioning that was a period of conservative government.

    https://twitter.com/RoryStewartUK/status/1551666286668795904
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,585

    Actually, very reassured. Liz is going to have a chancellor who helps rationalise our debt. Nice.

    Is that the default option ?
  • eekeek Posts: 24,797

    They are in Stoke and nobody has mentioned the astonishing success of Bet365.

    For the very good reason that half of Bet365's size comes from it's various dealings in places that don't really allow online gambling...
  • RazedabodeRazedabode Posts: 2,973
    Is Liz policy to ignore that China exists? The soon to be the worlds largest economy?

    And banning TikTok?
  • MikeLMikeL Posts: 7,281
    I think very hard to assess how members will react to this.

    Could be good for Rishi but hard to say.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901
    So which one these should Starmer fear? I’m genuinely trying to see the challenge, but they are no Cameron, Major or Johnson. Even May has a gravitas neither of these possess.
  • TazTaz Posts: 10,704

    Sunak is winning just through greater airtime and exposure so far, i would say. Truss seems less combative than I would expect at dealing with all the domination efforts so far.

    Sunak continually talking over Truss and browbeating her is not a good look. This will work against him. Truss is less combative but less hectoring too.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 24,588
    edited July 2022
    Truss is doing better than Sunak. I say that as someone who can't bear her.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 113,972

    IshmaelZ said:

    There's an Opinium poll on this debate.

    I'm one of the 1,000 or so ordinary voters taking part in this poll.

    FIFTH time in two weeks

    Every statistics textbook I have ever read has started, Take a random sample....
    I'm represent several demographics that pollsters find hard to find.

    Tory member, asian heritage, muslim, and a few others.
    ...working-class northern lad, bespoke shoe collector?
    I'm working class by marriage, that counts?
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 26,286

    I’ve turned it off. I wonder where I can emigrate to.

    I'm watching the post-match interviews on BBC2, women's international cricket between England and South Africa.
  • DriverDriver Posts: 4,522

    Driver said:

    Thanks for delivering this pair, Tory MPs and Daily Mail.

    Thanks a fucking bunch.

    The worst thing about Truss is that if/when she wins, she's provided so much material for Labour's attack messages.
    Which shouldn't matter, if people were able to ignore the crap that gets thrown around and ask what Labour would actually do.
    Why do you care. You’ll vote Tory anyway
    I probably will if Sir Keir doesn't come up with any positive reasons to vote for him. Depends exactly where I'm living by then, though, there are some great Tory MPs in the local area and some that I would never vote for.
  • EndillionEndillion Posts: 4,960
    Truss much stronger on foreign affairs, making up a bit for being beaten up on the economy.

    Funny, that.
  • Jonathan said:

    So which one these should Starmer fear? I’m genuinely trying to see the challenge, but they are no Cameron, Major or Johnson. Even May has a gravitas neither of these possess.

    Probably Liz
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 5,794

    IshmaelZ said:

    There's an Opinium poll on this debate.

    I'm one of the 1,000 or so ordinary voters taking part in this poll.

    FIFTH time in two weeks

    Every statistics textbook I have ever read has started, Take a random sample....
    I'm represent several demographics that pollsters find hard to find.

    Tory member, asian heritage, muslim, and a few others.
    ...working-class northern lad, bespoke shoe collector?
    I'm working class by marriage, that counts?
    Which one?
  • eek said:

    They are in Stoke and nobody has mentioned the astonishing success of Bet365.

    For the very good reason that half of Bet365's size comes from it's various dealings in places that don't really allow online gambling...
    Bet365 keep sending me free bets almost every otherday!
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,094

    And again Liz Truss keeps saying Levelling up and recession is personal to her because she experienced the pain or the 1980s and 90s in Paisley and Leeds. But somehow she doesn’t seem to be mentioning that was a period of conservative government.

    https://twitter.com/RoryStewartUK/status/1551666286668795904

    She was anti-Tory until 1996
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,768

    I’ve turned it off. I wonder where I can emigrate to.

    Scotland?
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    This is sooo boring. Not gonna move the betting or the result
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,768

    Jonathan said:

    So which one these should Starmer fear? I’m genuinely trying to see the challenge, but they are no Cameron, Major or Johnson. Even May has a gravitas neither of these possess.

    Probably Liz
    In the sense she would leave an economic wasteland, perhaps.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,540
    Liz remembering the Iron Curtain being rolled back in the 1980s…….
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 5,794

    I’ve turned it off. I wonder where I can emigrate to.

    I think Truss is mad enough to call a December election (replicating the Great Man). Starmer by Christmas.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 113,972
    Eabhal said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    There's an Opinium poll on this debate.

    I'm one of the 1,000 or so ordinary voters taking part in this poll.

    FIFTH time in two weeks

    Every statistics textbook I have ever read has started, Take a random sample....
    I'm represent several demographics that pollsters find hard to find.

    Tory member, asian heritage, muslim, and a few others.
    ...working-class northern lad, bespoke shoe collector?
    I'm working class by marriage, that counts?
    Which one?
    I've only been married once.

    One is my limit.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,713
    Truss rules out direct involvement in Ukraine but will continue to provide weapons and sanctions, Sunak agrees
  • TazTaz Posts: 10,704

    I’ve turned it off. I wonder where I can emigrate to.

    It’s not very inspiring.

    You’d miss the North East and the toon in the top flight if you fled.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 5,794
    WARSHIPS TO THE BLACK SEA
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 27,016
    Driver said:

    Thanks for delivering this pair, Tory MPs and Daily Mail.

    Thanks a fucking bunch.

    The worst thing about Truss is that if/when she wins, she's provided so much material for Labour's attack messages.
    Which shouldn't matter, if people were able to ignore the crap that gets thrown around and ask what Labour would actually do.
    If this lot carry on this bad, all Labour will need to offer is calm sanity.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 27,016
    ydoethur said:

    I’ve turned it off. I wonder where I can emigrate to.

    Scotland?
    I can highly recommend it.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,038
    FWIW, my wife - who's a very centrist Conservative voter - has just declared for Truss as next PM off the back of this debate.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,840
    Andy_JS said:

    I’ve turned it off. I wonder where I can emigrate to.

    I'm watching the post-match interviews on BBC2, women's international cricket between England and South Africa.
    Are they making more or less sense on fiscal and monetary policy?
  • MikeLMikeL Posts: 7,281
    Rishi might pivot here - he's got the big economic attack in - now he can be more measured.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,094
    ydoethur said:

    Jonathan said:

    So which one these should Starmer fear? I’m genuinely trying to see the challenge, but they are no Cameron, Major or Johnson. Even May has a gravitas neither of these possess.

    Probably Liz
    In the sense she would leave an economic wasteland, perhaps.
    More likely, she will change her views and policies again to suit new circumstances.
  • Truss will win it by a landslide
  • MattWMattW Posts: 18,098
    edited July 2022
    Isn't that a Red Herring from Soph?

    "Would you deploy the RN to the Black Sea to protect grain shipments".

    Is that not prevented by the exclusion of warships from the Black Sea by Turkey under the Montreux Convention at the current time of tension?
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,038

    There's an Opinium poll on this debate.

    I'm one of the 1,000 or so ordinary voters taking part in this poll.

    It really does say a lot about the polling industry that you always seem to get polled whilst I never have in my life.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 46,280
    Can I just point out the overt kinkery evidenced by Liz Truss’s dress and necklace?

    She is totally Fetlife; probably domme
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,768

    Driver said:

    Thanks for delivering this pair, Tory MPs and Daily Mail.

    Thanks a fucking bunch.

    The worst thing about Truss is that if/when she wins, she's provided so much material for Labour's attack messages.
    Which shouldn't matter, if people were able to ignore the crap that gets thrown around and ask what Labour would actually do.
    If this lot carry on this bad, all Labour will need to offer is calm sanity.
    They don't need the 'calm' bit, to judge from the comments.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 47,789

    Liz remembering the Iron Curtain being rolled back in the 1980s…….

    1989 is in the 1980s
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    edited July 2022
    eek said:

    They are in Stoke and nobody has mentioned the astonishing success of Bet365.

    For the very good reason that half of Bet365's size comes from it's various dealings in places that don't really allow online gambling...
    and in ones that do, they restrict your account to 27p if you look like you might have half a clue about betting.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,776
    MikeL said:

    Rishi might pivot here - he's got the big economic attack in - now he can be more measured.

    Yes, it would do him no harm to emphasise some of the things that they agree on.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,961
    Eco-warrior Liz: " I was Greta before Greta...."

    Oops. The membership won't like that!
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 8,480
    edited July 2022
    Taz said:

    Sunak is winning just through greater airtime and exposure so far, i would say. Truss seems less combative than I would expect at dealing with all the domination efforts so far.

    Sunak continually talking over Truss and browbeating her is not a good look. This will work against him. Truss is less combative but less hectoring too.
    Truss just seems lower energy and less combative than I would expect, to me.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,094

    There's an Opinium poll on this debate.

    I'm one of the 1,000 or so ordinary voters taking part in this poll.

    It really does say a lot about the polling industry that you always seem to get polled whilst I never have in my life.
    You need to spend more time hanging around Primrose Hill? Or join YouGov.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,585

    Truss is doing better than Sunak. I say that as someone who can't bear her.

    They are both rather unconvincing, but where she comes across as a rather wooden Dr Who villain, he’s more like the irritating assistant.
  • TazTaz Posts: 10,704

    Truss will win it by a landslide

    Yes, you are quite right. This debate won’t shift anything.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 5,794
    Eabhal said:

    WARSHIPS TO THE BLACK SEA

    Now, RECYCLING.

    This has suddenly calmed down a bit. Energy pills wearing off?
  • DriverDriver Posts: 4,522
    Oh, god, here we go with the clothing trivia.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,812

    FWIW, my wife - who's a very centrist Conservative voter - has just declared for Truss as next PM off the back of this debate.

    Why genuinely?
    I find Rishi annoyingly disruptive but (to me) Liz is struggling to get her points across.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 27,016
    Chris Mason appears to be answering a question about Sunak's expensive clothes whilst sporting a Casio F91W costing a tenner
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,713
    Leon said:

    Can I just point out the overt kinkery evidenced by Liz Truss’s dress and necklace?

    She is totally Fetlife; probably domme

    Does that mean Rishi is the sub?
  • If the Tories were in opposition right now none of us would be saying these two have a good chance of winning an election
  • TazTaz Posts: 10,704
    Leon said:

    Can I just point out the overt kinkery evidenced by Liz Truss’s dress and necklace?

    She is totally Fetlife; probably domme

    Is that a good thing ?
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 43,625

    kle4 said:

    Sandpit said:

    glw said:

    Shares in France’s Eutelsat slump after it confirms OneWeb merger talks
    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2022/jul/25/france-eutelsat-uk-satellite-firm-oneweb-elon-musk-starlink

    Oh and the British government will have all sorts of handy vetos over the merged company.

    Rishi has quite possibly played an absolute blinder.

    It does rather look like the LEO constellations data provision market will be

    1) Starlink
    2) OneWeb - being actually operational and everything. Being the alternative to Starlink, in OneWebs chosen markets is probably quite a good business plan.
    3) Kuiper - if Jeff can ever get his rockets up.
    Kuiper will happen. Even *If* New Glenn never gets to orbit, Kuiper will launch, as Kuiper is not dependent on NG. It's Kuiper and Oneweb's USP...

    Also note sex-pest Musk's post that Starlink depends on the unlaunched Starship... (*)

    (*) I don't believe that for one minute. he was just sh*tting on the employees he could not sh*g.
    It may happen - the problem is persistent non-delivery. It is hard to think that the slow pace at Blue Origin may be matched by the satellites for Kuiper taking ages.

    Remember when Surrey Satellites saved Galileo’s bacon? Just…

    Starlink V2 is about getting an unassailable lead - even if Bezos is buying all the non Starship launch capacity on the planet, he can’t compete. Can’t solve that problem with money - he’d need throw weight. Which won’t be available for any price. Unless he launches on Starship
    As ever, you are a little too pro-Musk and a little too anti- his rivals. If you had not noticed, SS has not launched, let alone reached orbit. They're nearly as late as NG. And Raptor 2 isn't looking that good.
    Starlink is in operation now. Thousands of satellites. Hundreds of thousands of actual users etc. approval to operate in many countries. Uplink stations in many countries. More satellites being launched every week. Literally.

    OneWeb is now beginning to come into service. Satellites in orbit, ground stations up and running, approval granted by various countries.

    Kuiper - no satellites. No ground stations. No users. No approvals.

    Currently just OneWeb and Starlink are in the game.

    Not sure what you means about Raptor 2 - plenty of videos from the fence at McGregor of multi hundred second runs, thrust vectoring and everything…
    There are plenty of videos of BE-4 as well, with the same criteria. And note they are on Raptor *2* because Raptor *1* did not cut the mustard. And they have blown three Raptor 2's in the last few months.

    Now, this might mean they're pushing the limits. Or it could be a sign the program is in trouble. But bear in mind NG has seven BE-4 engines on its first stage. Super Heavy has 33 (*). As the N1 shows, even with protection, the failure of one engine can doom the rocket.

    SpaceX has a great record in such things. But they are really pushing the limits of the technology, and they may be in for a world of pain. And tech is filled with companies that were leaders who vanished. I doubt that will happen with SpaceX, but don't swallow the Musk Kool-Aid.

    (*) According to Wiki; it regularly changes.
    The main problem with the N1 was lack of funding - they were trying for all up testing, but lacked the funds to lose the first 1/2 dozen boosters. Some of their stuff was mad even by SpaceX throw-it-at-the-sky standards - explosively opened valves, which couldn’t be reset. So completely untested engines off the production line, first flight was first fire…

    The comments from those who’ve worked at SpaceX and were involved with them (as both competitors and helpers) all agree on one thing - it takes years to build an organisation that can launch orbital rockets. And it isn’t something you can create without launching to orbit. Blue Origin is years behind - they haven’t finalised the design of New Glenn to the point of building tooling - they’ve built some test tanks. They really need the experience that some of the small launcher companies have already got - flying rockets. There’s no substitute.
    From memory (there's an online book about it written by an US/?Indian? chap), the N1 was meant to have a dozen+ launches before it successfully got to orbit. The political will - and hence financing - ran out.

    As I keep on saying, you seem too down on Blue Origin, and far too *up* on Musk's ventures.

    I want both to succeed. In fact, it's vital they both do.

    Edit: 'Challenge to Apollo' by Asif A. Siddiqi. Available for free online, and a great resource.

    Part 1:
    https://history.nasa.gov/SP-4408pt1.pdf
    Part 2:
    https://history.nasa.gov/SP-4408pt2.pdf
    If I may, here's a section on what it's like when an Apollo or SuperHeavy-sized rocket goes boom near the pad:

    "Only in the trench did I understand the sense of the expression "your heart in your mouth." Something quite improbable was being created all around--the steppe was trembling like a vibration test thundering, rumbling, whistling, gnashing-- mixed together in some terrible, seemingly unending cacophony. The trench proved to be so shallow and unreliable that one wanted to burrow into the sand so as not to hear this nightmare.., the thick wave from the explosion passed over us, sweeping away and leveling everything. Behind it came hot metal raining down from above. Pieces of the rocket were thrown ten kilometers away, and large windows were shattered in structures
    40 kilometers away. ,_ 400 kilogram spherical tank landed on the roof o[ the installation and testing wing. seven kilometers from the launch pad.

    By some estimates, the strength of the explosion was close to 250 tons of TNT--not a nuclear explosion, but certainly the most powerful explosion ever in the history of rocketry. The booster had lifted off to a height of 200 meters before falling over and exploding on the launch pad itself, about twenty-three seconds after launch. The emergency rescue system fired in the nick of time, at T+ 14.5 seconds, to shoot the descent apparatus of the payload two kilometers from the pad, thus saving it from destruction. Remarkably, no doubt because of the
    stringent safety precautions, there were no fatalities or injuries, although the physical devastation was phenomenal. When the first teams arrived near the pad in the early-morning hours of July 4, there was only carnage left behind:
    We arrived at the fueling station and were horrified--the windows and doors were smashed out, the iron entrance gate was askew, the equipment was scattered about with the light o[ dawn and was turned to stone--the steppe was literally strewn withdead animals and birds. Where so many o[ them came [rom and how they appeared in
    such quantities at the station I still do not understand.'

    And they reckon that only a small fraction of the fuel on the rocket went boom.
    Stand back from the window, when the rocket goes boom.
    https://youtube.com/watch?v=wX5GD1N7bEw
    The Soviet lack of understanding of basic safety was a feature of their rocket programs

    If you don’t mind watching humans burning to death - https://youtu.be/_ybnj4jcnwg
    The little I read of either space programme, but particularly the Soviet one, the more I'm amazed anyone made it up there and back in their death traps.
    Very true.

    But not just in Russia: Brazil had a really nasty one in 2003, killing 19 people. This is one thing I fear with SpaceX's SH/SS development: failing frequently is fine until it is not.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VLS-1_V03
    The trick is not having people close to where you are playing with propellants.

    That and flight termination systems make rocketry safe. A kiloton or 2 on the horizon is just a loud bang.

    The Brazilian thing was stupid negligence of the most basic sort.
    Also see the event where Virgin Galactic's friends killed three engineers in an explosion.

    Or the event this year where another 'emergent' rocket company had an event with people nearby, fortunately without casualties. Can't find a link immediately, but they got *lots* of criticism...
    I’ll refrain from commenting too much on the Virgin thing. He likes to sue.

    The engineers were

    1) pumping around multiple tons of a known monopropellant. AKA an explosive.
    2) they were unaware of the pressure/temperature issues documented in the literature about said propellant.
    3) they had no temperature measurement or control on the propellant tanks
    4) they had done no worst case (or any case) study to work out a safe zone.
    5) they did their tests with people nearby. For no requirement or reason.
    6) it was a blazing hot day in the desert, and they had no idea what that was doing to their test rig.

    EDIT - do you mean those idiots who were running a giant blow torch they called a rocket motor, while trying to kill themselves? Complete with hiding behind a small hummock of earth about 6 feet from their “test”?

    I’ll stop there…
    Indeed. But the fact they were in that position was down to the company. Scaled, I think.

    Don't blame them for their actions; blame the company that put them in that position.
    At any time anyone could have criticised what they were doing. “We need to clear the test area”. “We need a $10 temperature sensor on the tank”.

    No one mandated that test was run that way - just no one enforced any kind of discipline.

  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 23,943

    ydoethur said:

    I’ve turned it off. I wonder where I can emigrate to.

    Scotland?
    I can highly recommend it.
    Liz Truss went to primary school in Scotland; will that matter?
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 6,851
    edited July 2022
    Jonathan said:

    So which one these should Starmer fear? I’m genuinely trying to see the challenge, but they are no Cameron, Major or Johnson. Even May has a gravitas neither of these possess.

    Its a valid question. Probably neither. Then again, the underlying position prior to Paterson, CoL and partygate was Tories comfortably heading to at least largest party by a distance. Some sort of ethics drive and Truss winning to negate the party angle and then Starmers aces are down to one, the economy. I guess he will need to be wary of smoke snd mirrors economics and an early election because of them.
    It will be 'new' and new will have a short term attraction for some
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274

    Eco-warrior Liz: " I was Greta before Greta...."

    Oops. The membership won't like that!

    She does realise she left the Lib Dems?
  • TazTaz Posts: 10,704
    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    Can I just point out the overt kinkery evidenced by Liz Truss’s dress and necklace?

    She is totally Fetlife; probably domme

    Does that mean Rishi is the sub?
    She’s got him pegged.
  • Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 13,227
    He's simply twice as smart as her, no? (Not that that is necessarily a decisive factor with the relevant electorate.)
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,768

    Eco-warrior Liz: " I was Greta before Greta...."

    Oops. The membership won't like that!

    If she skived school all the time that goes a long way to explain how she fecked up the maths GCSE she is so proud of.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,282
    Leon said:

    Can I just point out the overt kinkery evidenced by Liz Truss’s dress and necklace?

    She is totally Fetlife; probably domme

    Not watching. Is it this one?

    image
  • LeonLeon Posts: 46,280
    Sunak has blown it
  • RazedabodeRazedabode Posts: 2,973
    Didn’t Liz Truss grow up during a Tory government? That terrible terrible time she wanted to change.. by becoming a Tory
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,265
    Sunak had to shake things up, but seems to have calmed down now. Truss doing a bit better now, but from the Labour side I really don't think either of them are very scary.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901
    edited July 2022
    Sunak “I wasn’t born this way, my family emigrated 60 years ago”. How old is he?
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 113,972

    There's an Opinium poll on this debate.

    I'm one of the 1,000 or so ordinary voters taking part in this poll.

    It really does say a lot about the polling industry that you always seem to get polled whilst I never have in my life.
    You need to sign up to the polling panels.
  • EndillionEndillion Posts: 4,960
    IanB2 said:

    ydoethur said:

    Jonathan said:

    So which one these should Starmer fear? I’m genuinely trying to see the challenge, but they are no Cameron, Major or Johnson. Even May has a gravitas neither of these possess.

    Probably Liz
    In the sense she would leave an economic wasteland, perhaps.
    More likely, she will change her views and policies again to suit new circumstances.
    You say that like it's a bad thing.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    Taz said:

    I’ve turned it off. I wonder where I can emigrate to.

    It’s not very inspiring.

    You’d miss the North East and the toon in the top flight if you fled.
    interesting
  • LeonLeon Posts: 46,280
    Ok wait. Truss struggling
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,405
    Rishi: I can afford expensive suits so suck it up.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    On va au lit.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 5,794

    Chris Mason appears to be answering a question about Sunak's expensive clothes whilst sporting a Casio F91W costing a tenner

    The bombmaker's watch.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 27,016
    Leon said:

    Can I just point out the overt kinkery evidenced by Liz Truss’s dress and necklace?

    She is totally Fetlife; probably domme

    Probably??? Black leather, a whip, and "don't worry, I'm not going to hurt you"
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,038
    Truss is so comfortable in this she's now doing humour and doing so confidently.

    First time I can recall her doing non-cringe.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,842

    He's simply twice as smart as her, no? (Not that that is necessarily a decisive factor with the relevant electorate.)

    He's a smoother debater, but no idea if he's smarter.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 38,852
    Truss improving slightly. Just very slightly.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,094
    edited July 2022

    Sunak had to shake things up, but seems to have calmed down now. Truss doing a bit better now, but from the Labour side I really don't think either of them are very scary.

    If only Starmer were at all scary, the Tories would be worried.
  • Good slap down of the BBC for focussing on trivia
  • RazedabodeRazedabode Posts: 2,973
    Truss keeps talking about her experience growing up DURING A CONSERVATIVE GOVERNMENT
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 10,347

    I’ve turned it off. I wonder where I can emigrate to.

    You did valiantly to turn it on in the first place. This evening was good time to put lard on the cat's boil.

    North Korea is pleasant in the spring, and the level of public debate in the media is marginally above that of the UK.

    Lots of openings for human rights lawyers if you feel like a sideways shift.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,038
    Andy_JS said:

    I’ve turned it off. I wonder where I can emigrate to.

    I'm watching the post-match interviews on BBC2, women's international cricket between England and South Africa.
    Christ, it's not that bad.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,540
    Apart from Truss dobbing in Raab for calling Brits the worst idlers in the world, we seem to have learned precisely zip from this debate so far. And there are another six weeks of this, which may be a good or bad thing

    https://twitter.com/Peston/status/1551668735852814338
  • MattWMattW Posts: 18,098
    Liz missing the hopportunity to throw Mad Nad under the bus .. I think.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,768
    The only consistent thing about this thread is how wildly everyone disagrees on how any given candidate is doing at any given moment.

    And it's not as though you're even plugging your favourites.

    That tells me whatever else is happening it's not being well run or a particularly profitable exercise.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 27,016

    ydoethur said:

    I’ve turned it off. I wonder where I can emigrate to.

    Scotland?
    I can highly recommend it.
    Liz Truss went to primary school in Scotland; will that matter?
    For 5 minutes. Then she lived in Leeds and was so horrified by the kids in her high school that she joined the LibDems
  • LeonLeon Posts: 46,280
    Sunak is quite boring. Shut up about the fucking pharmacy
This discussion has been closed.