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A Johnson 2022 exit is now the betting favourite – politicalbetting.com

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  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,862
    Leon said:

    It’s actually rather cheering that you can still go to a beautiful fascinating historic civilised city and have a delicious meal - surrounded by politicians! - for £14 a head. Including plentiful and excellent local wine


    AND - listen up, Merika - no one expects a tip, and they are totally surprised, even bemused, when you leave one

    Always a sign of the clueless tourist, leaving a tip in a country where the culture is that you don’t. Normally it’s Americans that mess up like that.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    Omnium said:

    Leon said:

    Good grief. Maybe the best meal I’ve had in Georgia (and the standard is high)

    Down in a cellar. Fine khinkali, nice green salad, fresh adjika (pictured) - that’s the hot smoky Georgian chili paprika sauce - and magnificent kutaisi kebabs in another dreamy spicy sauce

    Plus excellent bread and two large glasses of delicious chilled dry red wine

    Cost?

    £14

    No wonder the politicians come here



    Is that a battery operated tomato for extra taste?
    Chilled red wine?
    Lots of reds are the better for it, esp in hot weather
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,716

    All aboard the Supreme Court transantlantic express..




    Wow. Just jaw dropping.

    And I have to say I find his tweets on economics, models and covid are always worth a look.

    Is he a strict Catholic?
  • boulayboulay Posts: 5,486

    Omnium said:

    Leon said:

    Good grief. Maybe the best meal I’ve had in Georgia (and the standard is high)

    Down in a cellar. Fine khinkali, nice green salad, fresh adjika (pictured) - that’s the hot smoky Georgian chili paprika sauce - and magnificent kutaisi kebabs in another dreamy spicy sauce

    Plus excellent bread and two large glasses of delicious chilled dry red wine

    Cost?

    £14

    No wonder the politicians come here



    Is that a battery operated tomato for extra taste?
    Chilled red wine?
    A chilled fleurie in the summer is great.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,862
    boulay said:

    Omnium said:

    Leon said:

    Good grief. Maybe the best meal I’ve had in Georgia (and the standard is high)

    Down in a cellar. Fine khinkali, nice green salad, fresh adjika (pictured) - that’s the hot smoky Georgian chili paprika sauce - and magnificent kutaisi kebabs in another dreamy spicy sauce

    Plus excellent bread and two large glasses of delicious chilled dry red wine

    Cost?

    £14

    No wonder the politicians come here



    Is that a battery operated tomato for extra taste?
    Chilled red wine?
    A chilled fleurie in the summer is great.
    Or in a Portuguese jug.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559
    IanB2 said:

    Leon said:

    It’s actually rather cheering that you can still go to a beautiful fascinating historic civilised city and have a delicious meal - surrounded by politicians! - for £14 a head. Including plentiful and excellent local wine


    AND - listen up, Merika - no one expects a tip, and they are totally surprised, even bemused, when you leave one

    Always a sign of the clueless tourist, leaving a tip in a country where the culture is that you don’t. Normally it’s Americans that mess up like that.
    Because we aren't (as a rule) as cheap as UKers?
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,432
    edited June 2022

    With respect to the impact of the Sexual Revolution and it's relevance to Roe v Wade & today SCOTUS ruling, clear that Justice Kavanaugh brought some keen personal insights into the legal debate.

    After all, isn't his favorite cocktail being: Sex on the Beach.

    Reckon that Clarence Thomas's favorite is likely: Rum and Coke.

    Reminds me of Kavanagh QC, an old legal drama of the 90's with John Thaw.
  • ApplicantApplicant Posts: 3,379

    Ratger glad im not in *any american city* this weekend. Gonna get feisty.

    You don't fancy seeing some "mostly peaceful protests"?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277

    Omnium said:

    Leon said:

    Good grief. Maybe the best meal I’ve had in Georgia (and the standard is high)

    Down in a cellar. Fine khinkali, nice green salad, fresh adjika (pictured) - that’s the hot smoky Georgian chili paprika sauce - and magnificent kutaisi kebabs in another dreamy spicy sauce

    Plus excellent bread and two large glasses of delicious chilled dry red wine

    Cost?

    £14

    No wonder the politicians come here



    Is that a battery operated tomato for extra taste?
    Chilled red wine?
    In a hot climate - definitely Tbilisi in summer - chilled red wine is delicious. Even outside that scenario, some reds benefit from a bit of cool
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,061
    Applicant said:

    Ratger glad im not in *any american city* this weekend. Gonna get feisty.

    You don't fancy seeing some "mostly peaceful protests"?
    Not again, nah
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,647
    Omnium said:

    Leon said:

    Good grief. Maybe the best meal I’ve had in Georgia (and the standard is high)

    Down in a cellar. Fine khinkali, nice green salad, fresh adjika (pictured) - that’s the hot smoky Georgian chili paprika sauce - and magnificent kutaisi kebabs in another dreamy spicy sauce

    Plus excellent bread and two large glasses of delicious chilled dry red wine

    Cost?

    £14

    No wonder the politicians come here



    Is that a battery operated tomato for extra taste?
    They charge extra for that.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,862

    IanB2 said:

    Leon said:

    It’s actually rather cheering that you can still go to a beautiful fascinating historic civilised city and have a delicious meal - surrounded by politicians! - for £14 a head. Including plentiful and excellent local wine


    AND - listen up, Merika - no one expects a tip, and they are totally surprised, even bemused, when you leave one

    Always a sign of the clueless tourist, leaving a tip in a country where the culture is that you don’t. Normally it’s Americans that mess up like that.
    Because we aren't (as a rule) as cheap as UKers?
    Normally it’s some mixture of habit, fearing the shame you have at home if you don’t leave one, and ignorance. Americans don’t realise that leaving a tip in many countries can be seen as almost an insult.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,557
    Leon said:

    Good grief. Maybe the best meal I’ve had in Georgia (and the standard is high)

    Down in a cellar. Fine khinkali, nice green salad, fresh adjika (pictured) - that’s the hot smoky Georgian chili paprika sauce - and magnificent kutaisi kebabs in another dreamy spicy sauce

    Plus excellent bread and two large glasses of delicious chilled dry red wine

    Cost?

    £14

    No wonder the politicians come here



    Same price as a Big Mac meal in Leicester Square.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,432
    IanB2 said:

    Leon said:

    It’s actually rather cheering that you can still go to a beautiful fascinating historic civilised city and have a delicious meal - surrounded by politicians! - for £14 a head. Including plentiful and excellent local wine


    AND - listen up, Merika - no one expects a tip, and they are totally surprised, even bemused, when you leave one

    Always a sign of the clueless tourist, leaving a tip in a country where the culture is that you don’t. Normally it’s Americans that mess up like that.
    I don't agree. If you appreciate the service, you should tip. Nothing to do with being clueless.
  • boulayboulay Posts: 5,486
    Leon said:

    Omnium said:

    Leon said:

    Good grief. Maybe the best meal I’ve had in Georgia (and the standard is high)

    Down in a cellar. Fine khinkali, nice green salad, fresh adjika (pictured) - that’s the hot smoky Georgian chili paprika sauce - and magnificent kutaisi kebabs in another dreamy spicy sauce

    Plus excellent bread and two large glasses of delicious chilled dry red wine

    Cost?

    £14

    No wonder the politicians come here



    Is that a battery operated tomato for extra taste?
    Chilled red wine?
    In a hot climate - definitely Tbilisi in summer - chilled red wine is delicious. Even outside that scenario, some reds benefit from a bit of cool
    One of life’s simple pleasures, steak frites on a hot Saturday lunchtime with cold light red wine. Also has the benefit for me of not being as acidic as white so useful if on a long session.

  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277

    All aboard the Supreme Court transantlantic express..




    Wow. Just jaw dropping.

    And I have to say I find his tweets on economics, models and covid are always worth a look.

    Is he a strict Catholic?

    Yes
  • ApplicantApplicant Posts: 3,379

    IanB2 said:

    Leon said:

    It’s actually rather cheering that you can still go to a beautiful fascinating historic civilised city and have a delicious meal - surrounded by politicians! - for £14 a head. Including plentiful and excellent local wine


    AND - listen up, Merika - no one expects a tip, and they are totally surprised, even bemused, when you leave one

    Always a sign of the clueless tourist, leaving a tip in a country where the culture is that you don’t. Normally it’s Americans that mess up like that.
    Because we aren't (as a rule) as cheap as UKers?
    The American belief that it's OK not to list the price you're expected to pay - whether that's on a restaurant menu or on the shelf ticket in a supermarket - doesn't seem to make sense to the rest of the world, it's true.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,386

    With respect to the impact of the Sexual Revolution and it's relevance to Roe v Wade & today SCOTUS ruling, clear that Justice Kavanaugh brought some keen personal insights into the legal debate.

    After all, isn't his favorite cocktail being: Sex on the Beach.

    @MoonRabbit is Justice Kavanaugh? :hushed:
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277

    IanB2 said:

    Leon said:

    It’s actually rather cheering that you can still go to a beautiful fascinating historic civilised city and have a delicious meal - surrounded by politicians! - for £14 a head. Including plentiful and excellent local wine


    AND - listen up, Merika - no one expects a tip, and they are totally surprised, even bemused, when you leave one

    Always a sign of the clueless tourist, leaving a tip in a country where the culture is that you don’t. Normally it’s Americans that mess up like that.
    I don't agree. If you appreciate the service, you should tip. Nothing to do with being clueless.
    No @IanB2 - tho he is trying to wind me up - is right. Do not tip in a culture where they don’t tip. Japan is a great example. They are absolutely insulted if you tip. They do a great job because any job is worth doing well, and as best as you can

    Plus they are all relatively well paid
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559

    Andy_JS said:

    micktrain said:

    Scott_xP said:
    its all very interesting but i dont think a change of leader will save the tories
    Really? I can see Penny Mordaunt being a very difficult opponent for Keir Starmer.
    Really? Seems she cannot even compose an original tweet!
    ? Has she been copying Tweets? She's a very good media performer imo.
    Both posted short tweets saying that, after last night, their focus was on "delivery" of something or other unspecific.

    Evidently "delivery" is No. 10's buzz-word for this harsh morning-after.

    Whereas what most UKers seem to want, is deliverance from the likes of them and (esp) Big Dog.
    Ah, the old 'delivering on the priorities of the British people' that Boris takes every electoral set back as a coded command for. :lol:

    Well, if I were Mordaunt, I doubt I'd have bothered to jazz it up much either.
    IF yours truly were her, wouldn't have posted any drivel from No. 10 no-brains trust.

    Instead, would have delegated the dooty to the Undersecretary of State for Urinal Cake Exports or similar.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,070
    IshmaelZ said:

    Nigelb said:

    .

    .

    Nigelb said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Not for nothing, but #SupremeCourt justices can be #impeached with a simple majority in the #House.

    Relevant because at least 4 of them appear to have lied under oath in their confirmation hearings, and one was party to a violent coup attempt to overthrow the 2020 election.

    https://twitter.com/Seiurus/status/1540373576997429248

    Do we know what the lies were?
    The testified, for example, that they regarded Roe as "settled law".
    It was settled law.

    I wonder how far some of these Justices want to go back? How many would like to go back to Dredd Scott?
    Don't effing joke.

    Alito actually referenced Taney's opinion in Dredd Scott in his recent gun rights decision.
    Pungent PB Pundit Alert - Dread Scott
    Dred Scott
    I think you might have misunderstood SeaShanty's pun ?


  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,862

    IanB2 said:

    Leon said:

    It’s actually rather cheering that you can still go to a beautiful fascinating historic civilised city and have a delicious meal - surrounded by politicians! - for £14 a head. Including plentiful and excellent local wine


    AND - listen up, Merika - no one expects a tip, and they are totally surprised, even bemused, when you leave one

    Always a sign of the clueless tourist, leaving a tip in a country where the culture is that you don’t. Normally it’s Americans that mess up like that.
    I don't agree. If you appreciate the service, you should tip. Nothing to do with being clueless.
    Which simply reveals that you don’t have a clue.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,716
    Leon said:

    All aboard the Supreme Court transantlantic express..




    Wow. Just jaw dropping.

    And I have to say I find his tweets on economics, models and covid are always worth a look.

    Is he a strict Catholic?

    Yes
    Thanks.

    All is explained.

    He has gone full tonto on his thread this afternoon.

    SC is equivalent to stopping the Holocaust etc etc.

    Totally bonkers imho.

  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559
    ydoethur said:

    With respect to the impact of the Sexual Revolution and it's relevance to Roe v Wade & today SCOTUS ruling, clear that Justice Kavanaugh brought some keen personal insights into the legal debate.

    After all, isn't his favorite cocktail being: Sex on the Beach.

    @MoonRabbit is Justice Kavanaugh? :hushed:
    Expect my 5-pound note in your next incoming candy-gram.
  • With respect to the impact of the Sexual Revolution and it's relevance to Roe v Wade & today SCOTUS ruling, clear that Justice Kavanaugh brought some keen personal insights into the legal debate.

    After all, isn't his favorite cocktail being: Sex on the Beach.

    Reckon that Clarence Thomas's favorite is likely: Rum and Coke.

    Or a virgin Cuba Libre.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,862
    edited June 2022
    Leon said:

    IanB2 said:

    Leon said:

    It’s actually rather cheering that you can still go to a beautiful fascinating historic civilised city and have a delicious meal - surrounded by politicians! - for £14 a head. Including plentiful and excellent local wine


    AND - listen up, Merika - no one expects a tip, and they are totally surprised, even bemused, when you leave one

    Always a sign of the clueless tourist, leaving a tip in a country where the culture is that you don’t. Normally it’s Americans that mess up like that.
    I don't agree. If you appreciate the service, you should tip. Nothing to do with being clueless.
    No @IanB2 - tho he is trying to wind me up - is right. Do not tip in a culture where they don’t tip. Japan is a great example. They are absolutely insulted if you tip. They do a great job because any job is worth doing well, and as best as you can

    Plus they are all relatively well paid
    Absolutely. We used to have a well travelled guy on here who knew that kind of thing.

    Some Americans genuinely cannot understand how giving someone extra money can possibly be an insult. The scenario to paint for them is that they’d invited some guests home for dinner, treated them well, and at the end of the meal their guests had got out their wallet and left some dollars on the table. Most people immediately see how insulting that would be to the hosts. Once you get to that point, it’s simply a matter of context and culture.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,557

    IanB2 said:

    Leon said:

    It’s actually rather cheering that you can still go to a beautiful fascinating historic civilised city and have a delicious meal - surrounded by politicians! - for £14 a head. Including plentiful and excellent local wine


    AND - listen up, Merika - no one expects a tip, and they are totally surprised, even bemused, when you leave one

    Always a sign of the clueless tourist, leaving a tip in a country where the culture is that you don’t. Normally it’s Americans that mess up like that.
    I don't agree. If you appreciate the service, you should tip. Nothing to do with being clueless.
    I hate tipping. Love visiting places where it isn't part of the cultural set-up.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,432
    Leon said:

    IanB2 said:

    Leon said:

    It’s actually rather cheering that you can still go to a beautiful fascinating historic civilised city and have a delicious meal - surrounded by politicians! - for £14 a head. Including plentiful and excellent local wine


    AND - listen up, Merika - no one expects a tip, and they are totally surprised, even bemused, when you leave one

    Always a sign of the clueless tourist, leaving a tip in a country where the culture is that you don’t. Normally it’s Americans that mess up like that.
    I don't agree. If you appreciate the service, you should tip. Nothing to do with being clueless.
    No @IanB2 - tho he is trying to wind me up - is right. Do not tip in a culture where they don’t tip. Japan is a great example. They are absolutely insulted if you tip. They do a great job because any job is worth doing well, and as best as you can

    Plus they are all relatively well paid
    People are a great deal too easily insulted.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,781
    The other thing to remember about the Scotus judgement is that the Republican majority on the court is courtesy of appointments made by a president who lost the popular vote. The US constitutional set up is a mess. And it has been weaponised by the Republicans in order to impose their views on a country that doesn't agree with them.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559
    Applicant said:

    IanB2 said:

    Leon said:

    It’s actually rather cheering that you can still go to a beautiful fascinating historic civilised city and have a delicious meal - surrounded by politicians! - for £14 a head. Including plentiful and excellent local wine


    AND - listen up, Merika - no one expects a tip, and they are totally surprised, even bemused, when you leave one

    Always a sign of the clueless tourist, leaving a tip in a country where the culture is that you don’t. Normally it’s Americans that mess up like that.
    Because we aren't (as a rule) as cheap as UKers?
    The American belief that it's OK not to list the price you're expected to pay - whether that's on a restaurant menu or on the shelf ticket in a supermarket - doesn't seem to make sense to the rest of the world, it's true.
    Not OK in vast majority of restaurants (exceptions being hoity-toity) and about 99.46% of supermarkets in USA.

    Where are you getting your American groceries from?

    Ought to report them to appropriate state Attorney General's office for consumer fraud.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,368
    Boris Johnson is being harangued by Guru Murthy on C4 News.

    Johnson is being humiliated.

  • eekeek Posts: 28,370

    Applicant said:

    IanB2 said:

    Leon said:

    It’s actually rather cheering that you can still go to a beautiful fascinating historic civilised city and have a delicious meal - surrounded by politicians! - for £14 a head. Including plentiful and excellent local wine


    AND - listen up, Merika - no one expects a tip, and they are totally surprised, even bemused, when you leave one

    Always a sign of the clueless tourist, leaving a tip in a country where the culture is that you don’t. Normally it’s Americans that mess up like that.
    Because we aren't (as a rule) as cheap as UKers?
    The American belief that it's OK not to list the price you're expected to pay - whether that's on a restaurant menu or on the shelf ticket in a supermarket - doesn't seem to make sense to the rest of the world, it's true.
    Not OK in vast majority of restaurants (exceptions being hoity-toity) and about 99.46% of supermarkets in USA.

    Where are you getting your American groceries from?

    Ought to report them to appropriate state Attorney General's office for consumer fraud.
    I think Applicant is making the complaint that the price listed is before Sales Tax unlike the rest of the world where the price displayed includes sales tax so the price you see IS the price you pay.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,432
    IanB2 said:

    IanB2 said:

    Leon said:

    It’s actually rather cheering that you can still go to a beautiful fascinating historic civilised city and have a delicious meal - surrounded by politicians! - for £14 a head. Including plentiful and excellent local wine


    AND - listen up, Merika - no one expects a tip, and they are totally surprised, even bemused, when you leave one

    Always a sign of the clueless tourist, leaving a tip in a country where the culture is that you don’t. Normally it’s Americans that mess up like that.
    I don't agree. If you appreciate the service, you should tip. Nothing to do with being clueless.
    Which simply reveals that you don’t have a clue.
    Personally I'd say it means I have a generous nature, and you're the type of pond life who would barter a penniless beggar down to 10p for a shoe shine because 'it's what they do here dear'.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,094
    Pulpstar said:

    Overturning Roe puts the USA back to the position of every other nation in the world in that it becomes elected representatives decision whether or not abortion.
    I of course think it should be allowed but like SCOTUS I can't see anything in the US constitution about it

    Sure, but I doubt that stops the conservative justices any more than it stops the democratic ones, when they want it.
  • ApplicantApplicant Posts: 3,379

    The other thing to remember about the Scotus judgement is that the Republican majority on the court is courtesy of appointments made by a president who lost the popular vote. The US constitutional set up is a mess. And it has been weaponised by the Republicans in order to impose their views on a country that doesn't agree with them.

    The popular vote is irrelevant. If it were relevant, candidates would campaign in a different way.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559
    IanB2 said:

    IanB2 said:

    Leon said:

    It’s actually rather cheering that you can still go to a beautiful fascinating historic civilised city and have a delicious meal - surrounded by politicians! - for £14 a head. Including plentiful and excellent local wine


    AND - listen up, Merika - no one expects a tip, and they are totally surprised, even bemused, when you leave one

    Always a sign of the clueless tourist, leaving a tip in a country where the culture is that you don’t. Normally it’s Americans that mess up like that.
    Because we aren't (as a rule) as cheap as UKers?
    Normally it’s some mixture of habit, fearing the shame you have at home if you don’t leave one, and ignorance. Americans don’t realise that leaving a tip in many countries can be seen as almost an insult.
    An insult that folks get over pretty quickly I reckon.
  • The other thing to remember about the Scotus judgement is that the Republican majority on the court is courtesy of appointments made by a president who lost the popular vote. The US constitutional set up is a mess. And it has been weaponised by the Republicans in order to impose their views on a country that doesn't agree with them.

    He lost the popular vote but won the election, fair and square that time around. The US was never supposed to be a one person, one vote, popular vote democracy and protecting the interests of small states is a feature not a bug. As much as I dislike what they're doing with that, it is a deliberate protection against majoritarianism from the bigger states.

    Also as much as I dislike today's judgement and the way its overturned precedent and repealing rights, nothing is being imposed upon states that voted the other way. They'll still be able to have legal abortions, those who are being denied their liberty is women in red states.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,431
    IanB2 said:

    IanB2 said:

    Leon said:

    It’s actually rather cheering that you can still go to a beautiful fascinating historic civilised city and have a delicious meal - surrounded by politicians! - for £14 a head. Including plentiful and excellent local wine


    AND - listen up, Merika - no one expects a tip, and they are totally surprised, even bemused, when you leave one

    Always a sign of the clueless tourist, leaving a tip in a country where the culture is that you don’t. Normally it’s Americans that mess up like that.
    I don't agree. If you appreciate the service, you should tip. Nothing to do with being clueless.
    Which simply reveals that you don’t have a clue.
    Australians?
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,862

    Applicant said:

    IanB2 said:

    Leon said:

    It’s actually rather cheering that you can still go to a beautiful fascinating historic civilised city and have a delicious meal - surrounded by politicians! - for £14 a head. Including plentiful and excellent local wine


    AND - listen up, Merika - no one expects a tip, and they are totally surprised, even bemused, when you leave one

    Always a sign of the clueless tourist, leaving a tip in a country where the culture is that you don’t. Normally it’s Americans that mess up like that.
    Because we aren't (as a rule) as cheap as UKers?
    The American belief that it's OK not to list the price you're expected to pay - whether that's on a restaurant menu or on the shelf ticket in a supermarket - doesn't seem to make sense to the rest of the world, it's true.
    Not OK in vast majority of restaurants (exceptions being hoity-toity) and about 99.46% of supermarkets in USA.

    Where are you getting your American groceries from?

    Ought to report them to appropriate state Attorney General's office for consumer fraud.
    Since you are defending the American habit of leaving extra money - which actually originates from the abolition of slavery, but that’s another story - if you drive your car into a hand valet car wash place in Jersey City, leave the car and keys with a guy who takes it through the automatic car wash while you go to pay the cashier at the desk (about €12 as I recall); when the car emerges from the car wash a group of about five guys give the car a thorough valet inside, hoovering and the rest, when they return the key, are you expected to tip?
  • ApplicantApplicant Posts: 3,379

    Applicant said:

    IanB2 said:

    Leon said:

    It’s actually rather cheering that you can still go to a beautiful fascinating historic civilised city and have a delicious meal - surrounded by politicians! - for £14 a head. Including plentiful and excellent local wine


    AND - listen up, Merika - no one expects a tip, and they are totally surprised, even bemused, when you leave one

    Always a sign of the clueless tourist, leaving a tip in a country where the culture is that you don’t. Normally it’s Americans that mess up like that.
    Because we aren't (as a rule) as cheap as UKers?
    The American belief that it's OK not to list the price you're expected to pay - whether that's on a restaurant menu or on the shelf ticket in a supermarket - doesn't seem to make sense to the rest of the world, it's true.
    Not OK in vast majority of restaurants (exceptions being hoity-toity) and about 99.46% of supermarkets in USA.

    Where are you getting your American groceries from?

    Ought to report them to appropriate state Attorney General's office for consumer fraud.
    Places with sales tax.
  • boulayboulay Posts: 5,486
    Leon said:
    Thanks for this Leon. I now have my mission of spending hot summer afternoons with a chilled Kylie Minogue popping her cork.


  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,587
    Andy_JS said:

    IanB2 said:

    Leon said:

    It’s actually rather cheering that you can still go to a beautiful fascinating historic civilised city and have a delicious meal - surrounded by politicians! - for £14 a head. Including plentiful and excellent local wine


    AND - listen up, Merika - no one expects a tip, and they are totally surprised, even bemused, when you leave one

    Always a sign of the clueless tourist, leaving a tip in a country where the culture is that you don’t. Normally it’s Americans that mess up like that.
    I don't agree. If you appreciate the service, you should tip. Nothing to do with being clueless.
    I hate tipping. Love visiting places where it isn't part of the cultural set-up.
    Tipping is insidious because it makes the person feel good, when it is massively open to abuse by the employer.

    Employers should pay fair wages, not expect tips to make up their staff's pay, or steal the tips.

    9It'll be interesting to see if the recent law changes wrt tips have been effective.)
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,862

    Leon said:

    IanB2 said:

    Leon said:

    It’s actually rather cheering that you can still go to a beautiful fascinating historic civilised city and have a delicious meal - surrounded by politicians! - for £14 a head. Including plentiful and excellent local wine


    AND - listen up, Merika - no one expects a tip, and they are totally surprised, even bemused, when you leave one

    Always a sign of the clueless tourist, leaving a tip in a country where the culture is that you don’t. Normally it’s Americans that mess up like that.
    I don't agree. If you appreciate the service, you should tip. Nothing to do with being clueless.
    No @IanB2 - tho he is trying to wind me up - is right. Do not tip in a culture where they don’t tip. Japan is a great example. They are absolutely insulted if you tip. They do a great job because any job is worth doing well, and as best as you can

    Plus they are all relatively well paid
    Tipping should be unacceptable everywhere. Its a hangover from the days of servile grovelling. Pay hospitality staff a living wage, balls to tipping.
    It’s a hangover from white employers not wanting to pay black former slave women a proper wage.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559
    eek said:

    Applicant said:

    IanB2 said:

    Leon said:

    It’s actually rather cheering that you can still go to a beautiful fascinating historic civilised city and have a delicious meal - surrounded by politicians! - for £14 a head. Including plentiful and excellent local wine


    AND - listen up, Merika - no one expects a tip, and they are totally surprised, even bemused, when you leave one

    Always a sign of the clueless tourist, leaving a tip in a country where the culture is that you don’t. Normally it’s Americans that mess up like that.
    Because we aren't (as a rule) as cheap as UKers?
    The American belief that it's OK not to list the price you're expected to pay - whether that's on a restaurant menu or on the shelf ticket in a supermarket - doesn't seem to make sense to the rest of the world, it's true.
    Not OK in vast majority of restaurants (exceptions being hoity-toity) and about 99.46% of supermarkets in USA.

    Where are you getting your American groceries from?

    Ought to report them to appropriate state Attorney General's office for consumer fraud.
    I think Applicant is making the complaint that the price listed is before Sales Tax unlike the rest of the world where the price displayed includes sales tax so the price you see IS the price you pay.
    Ah, that makes sense, and is an excellent point.

    Suggest a trip to the Great Beaver State of Oregon - no sales tax.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,432

    IanB2 said:

    IanB2 said:

    Leon said:

    It’s actually rather cheering that you can still go to a beautiful fascinating historic civilised city and have a delicious meal - surrounded by politicians! - for £14 a head. Including plentiful and excellent local wine


    AND - listen up, Merika - no one expects a tip, and they are totally surprised, even bemused, when you leave one

    Always a sign of the clueless tourist, leaving a tip in a country where the culture is that you don’t. Normally it’s Americans that mess up like that.
    Because we aren't (as a rule) as cheap as UKers?
    Normally it’s some mixture of habit, fearing the shame you have at home if you don’t leave one, and ignorance. Americans don’t realise that leaving a tip in many countries can be seen as almost an insult.
    An insult that folks get over pretty quickly I reckon.
    Quite. And where is their cultural understanding that Westerners tip? The job of a host is to make people who may have all sorts of customs feel welcome.
  • Stocky said:

    micktrain said:

    rcs1000 said:

    micktrain said:

    rcs1000 said:

    micktrain said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    micktrain said:

    kinabalu said:

    Stocky said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    This what the culture wars lead to.

    Nadine Dorries and the other collaborators in the UK culture war can feck right off.

    It’s a two way war, pal
    Republicans v women.

    pal.
    It’s not outrageous to believe that all human life begins at conception, and must therefore be protected as much as a baby

    I don’t agree but I respect that sincere belief honestly held by many in the USA

    Trouble is SOME right wingers have hijacked this cause as a way to monster the Left, as they believe the Left is bent on destroying the America they know

    It’s a war. Pal.
    Enough of this chippy 'pal' thing. It's a cringer.

    On the 'respect' front, for me it depends. People who believe abortion is morally wrong and (if a woman) would never contemplate it - I respect that. But people (esp men) who seek to impose that view by law on everyone else and in the process roll back the emancipation of women by 50 years - I don't respect that. I have contempt for it tbh.
    It's a subset of the right isn't it - the deeply religious conservative ones. Very niche over here thankfully. Plenty of them are women.
    A subset wielding disproportionate power atm for various reasons. Personally I think this is so gross that it won't hold. Can't say how exactly it will collapse but I'm pretty sure it will. You can't do this to women in 2022. You can't just sort of 'pretend' those struggles of the civil rights era never happened. I know the phrase 'wrong side of history' is over-bandied and can irritate, but it really does apply here.
    maybe the tide of history is turning...maybe women have decided they have had enough of the sexual revolution

    Dunno if you are a Russian bot, but this seems to me entirely plausible. Women can be much more socially conservative than men, see female genital mutilation, which is often preserved by the opinions of women (men tend not to care, or be anti)

    The same process is known to defending rape lawyers, who will always try to pack a jury with women, as they are more judgemental (“the slut was drunk and asking for it”)
    Women under 45 are more strongly pro-Choice than men under 45. Above 60, it's the other way around.
    it will be women who rollback the sexual revolution when they decide they are no longer benefitting from it...maybe they are sick of rough casual sex and men who wont commit or even working in large corporations for 60 hours per week to afford a house...at that point the whole sexual revolution collapses
    You do know that they aren't obliged to have rough casual sex? Women aren't forced to swipe left on Tinder.
    you have the classic "goldman sachs" type view of seeing us as a society of atomised indviduals...have you never heard of social pressure....that "goldman sachs" type view of people as atomised individuals has done tremendous harm
    While the "micktrain" worldview of seeking to control the behaviour of consenting adults has been utterly without problems, right?
    happy medium mate happy medium....society doesnt have to be saudi arabia nor the present day uk...there is a balance between outright sexual decadence and sexual repression
    Are we talking about sexual decadence though?

    Banning abortion means that females in normal relationships who have an accident or are naive and who do not want a baby - plus the male concerned who doesn't not want a baby either - are barred by state dictate from exercising choice.
    As someone who's lived in the UK for over 20 years, it's depressing to think I've missed out on all the sexual decadence going on around me. If we're living in the equivalent of the late Roman empire, please show me the way to all that rough sex. I'm ready to be brutalized.

    More seriously, it's amazing how ambivalent people can be about abortion until faced with financially supporting an unwanted kid. Than they're pro-choice all the way.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,862

    IanB2 said:

    IanB2 said:

    Leon said:

    It’s actually rather cheering that you can still go to a beautiful fascinating historic civilised city and have a delicious meal - surrounded by politicians! - for £14 a head. Including plentiful and excellent local wine


    AND - listen up, Merika - no one expects a tip, and they are totally surprised, even bemused, when you leave one

    Always a sign of the clueless tourist, leaving a tip in a country where the culture is that you don’t. Normally it’s Americans that mess up like that.
    Because we aren't (as a rule) as cheap as UKers?
    Normally it’s some mixture of habit, fearing the shame you have at home if you don’t leave one, and ignorance. Americans don’t realise that leaving a tip in many countries can be seen as almost an insult.
    An insult that folks get over pretty quickly I reckon.
    No, an insult that can create problems for the tourists that follow, once people get accustomed to being insulted and not minding so much.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,061
    Thinking of where we go from here, the Tories know ehat they need to do and we are at 'do or do not, there is no try'
    They either get rid and try to fight on with a fresh admunistration or they dont and reap everything coming their way.
    You're on your own, guys. We can provide no further assistance.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,647
    edited June 2022

    Applicant said:

    IanB2 said:

    Leon said:

    It’s actually rather cheering that you can still go to a beautiful fascinating historic civilised city and have a delicious meal - surrounded by politicians! - for £14 a head. Including plentiful and excellent local wine


    AND - listen up, Merika - no one expects a tip, and they are totally surprised, even bemused, when you leave one

    Always a sign of the clueless tourist, leaving a tip in a country where the culture is that you don’t. Normally it’s Americans that mess up like that.
    Because we aren't (as a rule) as cheap as UKers?
    The American belief that it's OK not to list the price you're expected to pay - whether that's on a restaurant menu or on the shelf ticket in a supermarket - doesn't seem to make sense to the rest of the world, it's true.
    Not OK in vast majority of restaurants (exceptions being hoity-toity) and about 99.46% of supermarkets in USA.

    Where are you getting your American groceries from?

    Ought to report them to appropriate state Attorney General's office for consumer fraud.
    Not supermarkets, but I always found sales tax added on at the till in other shops a bit weird.

    I always tip in America, because otherwise the service staff don't get properly paid.

    It is weird though. You tip the taxi driver but not the bus driver, the waitress but not the chef etc.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,781

    The other thing to remember about the Scotus judgement is that the Republican majority on the court is courtesy of appointments made by a president who lost the popular vote. The US constitutional set up is a mess. And it has been weaponised by the Republicans in order to impose their views on a country that doesn't agree with them.

    He lost the popular vote but won the election, fair and square that time around. The US was never supposed to be a one person, one vote, popular vote democracy and protecting the interests of small states is a feature not a bug. As much as I dislike what they're doing with that, it is a deliberate protection against majoritarianism from the bigger states.

    Also as much as I dislike today's judgement and the way its overturned precedent and repealing rights, nothing is being imposed upon states that voted the other way. They'll still be able to have legal abortions, those who are being denied their liberty is women in red states.
    The electoral college, like most things that are wrong with America, has its origins in slavery. It was designed to protect the South, who were fearful that direct voting would negatively affect them owing to much of their population being slaves and thus ineligible to vote. Slaves counted as 60% of a white person in apportioning electoral college votes, as well as Congressmen.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559
    IanB2 said:

    Applicant said:

    IanB2 said:

    Leon said:

    It’s actually rather cheering that you can still go to a beautiful fascinating historic civilised city and have a delicious meal - surrounded by politicians! - for £14 a head. Including plentiful and excellent local wine


    AND - listen up, Merika - no one expects a tip, and they are totally surprised, even bemused, when you leave one

    Always a sign of the clueless tourist, leaving a tip in a country where the culture is that you don’t. Normally it’s Americans that mess up like that.
    Because we aren't (as a rule) as cheap as UKers?
    The American belief that it's OK not to list the price you're expected to pay - whether that's on a restaurant menu or on the shelf ticket in a supermarket - doesn't seem to make sense to the rest of the world, it's true.
    Not OK in vast majority of restaurants (exceptions being hoity-toity) and about 99.46% of supermarkets in USA.

    Where are you getting your American groceries from?

    Ought to report them to appropriate state Attorney General's office for consumer fraud.
    Since you are defending the American habit of leaving extra money - which actually originates from the abolition of slavery, but that’s another story - if you drive your car into a hand valet car wash place in Jersey City, leave the car and keys with a guy who takes it through the automatic car wash while you go to pay the cashier at the desk (about €12 as I recall); when the car emerges from the car wash a group of about five guys give the car a thorough valet inside, hoovering and the rest, when they return the key, are you expected to tip?
    As I neither own a car nor live in Jersey City, don't have a clue.

    And agree with others on here, that a living wage beats a tip every day.

    And would appear from link below, that your contention that tipping "actually originates from the abolition of slavery" may NOT hold water:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gratuity

  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,557
    edited June 2022
    The reason I don't like tipping is nothing to do with being stingy. It's because I don't like trying to guess what someone else thinks is acceptable. Very stressful and ruins the experience.
  • nico679nico679 Posts: 6,275
    edited June 2022
    I just find younger women who are celebrating today’s SCOTUS decision even more beyond the pale than their older male peers .

    These women seem to want to be their partners doormat and be turned into a Stepford Wife .

    As for Clarence Thomas what a fxcking hateful human being . Utterly loathsome !


  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277
    edited June 2022
    IanB2 said:

    IanB2 said:

    IanB2 said:

    Leon said:

    It’s actually rather cheering that you can still go to a beautiful fascinating historic civilised city and have a delicious meal - surrounded by politicians! - for £14 a head. Including plentiful and excellent local wine


    AND - listen up, Merika - no one expects a tip, and they are totally surprised, even bemused, when you leave one

    Always a sign of the clueless tourist, leaving a tip in a country where the culture is that you don’t. Normally it’s Americans that mess up like that.
    Because we aren't (as a rule) as cheap as UKers?
    Normally it’s some mixture of habit, fearing the shame you have at home if you don’t leave one, and ignorance. Americans don’t realise that leaving a tip in many countries can be seen as almost an insult.
    An insult that folks get over pretty quickly I reckon.
    No, an insult that can create problems for the tourists that follow, once people get accustomed to being insulted and not minding so much.
    Yes, at the risk of making an offensive analogy, it’s like feeding alligators

    Once alligators get used to being fed by humans, they expect the NEXT human to feed them, and when that human does not - disaster can ensue, as the human becomes the snack

    In a non-tipping culture, don’t tip

    Trouble is most countries are in the grey zone. At one end is America where you tip for everything, at the other is Japan where it is extremely rare

  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,781
    Applicant said:

    The other thing to remember about the Scotus judgement is that the Republican majority on the court is courtesy of appointments made by a president who lost the popular vote. The US constitutional set up is a mess. And it has been weaponised by the Republicans in order to impose their views on a country that doesn't agree with them.

    The popular vote is irrelevant. If it were relevant, candidates would campaign in a different way.
    Sure, it's irrelevant because that's not how the votes are counted. It is extremely relevant when it comes to the question of legitimacy in a supposed democracy.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,647

    Stocky said:

    micktrain said:

    rcs1000 said:

    micktrain said:

    rcs1000 said:

    micktrain said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    micktrain said:

    kinabalu said:

    Stocky said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    This what the culture wars lead to.

    Nadine Dorries and the other collaborators in the UK culture war can feck right off.

    It’s a two way war, pal
    Republicans v women.

    pal.
    It’s not outrageous to believe that all human life begins at conception, and must therefore be protected as much as a baby

    I don’t agree but I respect that sincere belief honestly held by many in the USA

    Trouble is SOME right wingers have hijacked this cause as a way to monster the Left, as they believe the Left is bent on destroying the America they know

    It’s a war. Pal.
    Enough of this chippy 'pal' thing. It's a cringer.

    On the 'respect' front, for me it depends. People who believe abortion is morally wrong and (if a woman) would never contemplate it - I respect that. But people (esp men) who seek to impose that view by law on everyone else and in the process roll back the emancipation of women by 50 years - I don't respect that. I have contempt for it tbh.
    It's a subset of the right isn't it - the deeply religious conservative ones. Very niche over here thankfully. Plenty of them are women.
    A subset wielding disproportionate power atm for various reasons. Personally I think this is so gross that it won't hold. Can't say how exactly it will collapse but I'm pretty sure it will. You can't do this to women in 2022. You can't just sort of 'pretend' those struggles of the civil rights era never happened. I know the phrase 'wrong side of history' is over-bandied and can irritate, but it really does apply here.
    maybe the tide of history is turning...maybe women have decided they have had enough of the sexual revolution

    Dunno if you are a Russian bot, but this seems to me entirely plausible. Women can be much more socially conservative than men, see female genital mutilation, which is often preserved by the opinions of women (men tend not to care, or be anti)

    The same process is known to defending rape lawyers, who will always try to pack a jury with women, as they are more judgemental (“the slut was drunk and asking for it”)
    Women under 45 are more strongly pro-Choice than men under 45. Above 60, it's the other way around.
    it will be women who rollback the sexual revolution when they decide they are no longer benefitting from it...maybe they are sick of rough casual sex and men who wont commit or even working in large corporations for 60 hours per week to afford a house...at that point the whole sexual revolution collapses
    You do know that they aren't obliged to have rough casual sex? Women aren't forced to swipe left on Tinder.
    you have the classic "goldman sachs" type view of seeing us as a society of atomised indviduals...have you never heard of social pressure....that "goldman sachs" type view of people as atomised individuals has done tremendous harm
    While the "micktrain" worldview of seeking to control the behaviour of consenting adults has been utterly without problems, right?
    happy medium mate happy medium....society doesnt have to be saudi arabia nor the present day uk...there is a balance between outright sexual decadence and sexual repression
    Are we talking about sexual decadence though?

    Banning abortion means that females in normal relationships who have an accident or are naive and who do not want a baby - plus the male concerned who doesn't not want a baby either - are barred by state dictate from exercising choice.
    As someone who's lived in the UK for over 20 years, it's depressing to think I've missed out on all the sexual decadence going on around me. If we're living in the equivalent of the late Roman empire, please show me the way to all that rough sex. I'm ready to be brutalized.

    More seriously, it's amazing how ambivalent people can be about abortion until faced with financially supporting an unwanted kid. Than they're pro-choice all the way.
    I am fairly anti-abortion, but I do believe in freedom, and have no desire to impose my beliefs on others. As such I support individual women's right to choose.

  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559
    speaking of offensive money customs, what up with making people pay to sit on a chair in a London Park - without any notice of that fact on said chair?

    Am guessing that I am NOT the only "clueless American" to fall for that particular swindle!
  • micktrainmicktrain Posts: 137

    Stocky said:

    micktrain said:

    rcs1000 said:

    micktrain said:

    rcs1000 said:

    micktrain said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    micktrain said:

    kinabalu said:

    Stocky said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    This what the culture wars lead to.

    Nadine Dorries and the other collaborators in the UK culture war can feck right off.

    It’s a two way war, pal
    Republicans v women.

    pal.
    It’s not outrageous to believe that all human life begins at conception, and must therefore be protected as much as a baby

    I don’t agree but I respect that sincere belief honestly held by many in the USA

    Trouble is SOME right wingers have hijacked this cause as a way to monster the Left, as they believe the Left is bent on destroying the America they know

    It’s a war. Pal.
    Enough of this chippy 'pal' thing. It's a cringer.

    On the 'respect' front, for me it depends. People who believe abortion is morally wrong and (if a woman) would never contemplate it - I respect that. But people (esp men) who seek to impose that view by law on everyone else and in the process roll back the emancipation of women by 50 years - I don't respect that. I have contempt for it tbh.
    It's a subset of the right isn't it - the deeply religious conservative ones. Very niche over here thankfully. Plenty of them are women.
    A subset wielding disproportionate power atm for various reasons. Personally I think this is so gross that it won't hold. Can't say how exactly it will collapse but I'm pretty sure it will. You can't do this to women in 2022. You can't just sort of 'pretend' those struggles of the civil rights era never happened. I know the phrase 'wrong side of history' is over-bandied and can irritate, but it really does apply here.
    maybe the tide of history is turning...maybe women have decided they have had enough of the sexual revolution

    Dunno if you are a Russian bot, but this seems to me entirely plausible. Women can be much more socially conservative than men, see female genital mutilation, which is often preserved by the opinions of women (men tend not to care, or be anti)

    The same process is known to defending rape lawyers, who will always try to pack a jury with women, as they are more judgemental (“the slut was drunk and asking for it”)
    Women under 45 are more strongly pro-Choice than men under 45. Above 60, it's the other way around.
    it will be women who rollback the sexual revolution when they decide they are no longer benefitting from it...maybe they are sick of rough casual sex and men who wont commit or even working in large corporations for 60 hours per week to afford a house...at that point the whole sexual revolution collapses
    You do know that they aren't obliged to have rough casual sex? Women aren't forced to swipe left on Tinder.
    you have the classic "goldman sachs" type view of seeing us as a society of atomised indviduals...have you never heard of social pressure....that "goldman sachs" type view of people as atomised individuals has done tremendous harm
    While the "micktrain" worldview of seeking to control the behaviour of consenting adults has been utterly without problems, right?
    happy medium mate happy medium....society doesnt have to be saudi arabia nor the present day uk...there is a balance between outright sexual decadence and sexual repression
    Are we talking about sexual decadence though?

    Banning abortion means that females in normal relationships who have an accident or are naive and who do not want a baby - plus the male concerned who doesn't not want a baby either - are barred by state dictate from exercising choice.
    As someone who's lived in the UK for over 20 years, it's depressing to think I've missed out on all the sexual decadence going on around me. If we're living in the equivalent of the late Roman empire, please show me the way to all that rough sex. I'm ready to be brutalized.

    More seriously, it's amazing how ambivalent people can be about abortion until faced with financially supporting an unwanted kid. Than they're pro-choice all the way.
    the significance of today is it is the first major setback to the sexual revolution since it started in the 1960s with easily available contraception. Historians may lookback on today as the day when the sexual revolution started to go into reverse
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559
    IanB2 said:

    IanB2 said:

    IanB2 said:

    Leon said:

    It’s actually rather cheering that you can still go to a beautiful fascinating historic civilised city and have a delicious meal - surrounded by politicians! - for £14 a head. Including plentiful and excellent local wine


    AND - listen up, Merika - no one expects a tip, and they are totally surprised, even bemused, when you leave one

    Always a sign of the clueless tourist, leaving a tip in a country where the culture is that you don’t. Normally it’s Americans that mess up like that.
    Because we aren't (as a rule) as cheap as UKers?
    Normally it’s some mixture of habit, fearing the shame you have at home if you don’t leave one, and ignorance. Americans don’t realise that leaving a tip in many countries can be seen as almost an insult.
    An insult that folks get over pretty quickly I reckon.
    No, an insult that can create problems for the tourists that follow, once people get accustomed to being insulted and not minding so much.
    Only for cheapskate tourists is a gratuity a "problem".
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    I am finding this Redactle hard.

    I regret telling people in here about it.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277
    Andy_JS said:

    The reason I don't like tipping is nothing to do with being stingy. It's because I don't like trying to guess what someone else thinks is acceptable. Very stressful and ruins the experience.

    Yes. Exactly

    One of the most stressful things in travel is when you get off a long haul flight to a new foreign country and the dude at the posh hotels takes your bags to your room and shows you everything, and all the time you are thinking, Shit, do I have to give him something, surely I do, but I have no foreign currency, and even if I do, how much, etc etc etc etc

    Really quite unpleasant at what should be a sweet moment. Arrival. And it’s got worse as we’ve moved to a cashless economy

    The good news is that hotels have realised this - at least the better kind - and they do it a different way. Your bags should be sent up. You are given a key card. Make your own way. Much nicer
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,135
    Ch4 interview with Boris, asked about whether he gets what the voters are saying he witters on and on about energy policy, keeps saying "wind".

    Indeed.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559
    Andy_JS said:

    The reason I don't like tipping is nothing to do with being stingy. It's because I don't like trying to guess what someone else thinks is acceptable. Very stressful and ruins the experience.

    Asking is an option.

    Esp. as sometimes/often a service charge or some other gratuity-substitute is built-in to the price.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,557
    Leon said:

    IanB2 said:

    IanB2 said:

    IanB2 said:

    Leon said:

    It’s actually rather cheering that you can still go to a beautiful fascinating historic civilised city and have a delicious meal - surrounded by politicians! - for £14 a head. Including plentiful and excellent local wine


    AND - listen up, Merika - no one expects a tip, and they are totally surprised, even bemused, when you leave one

    Always a sign of the clueless tourist, leaving a tip in a country where the culture is that you don’t. Normally it’s Americans that mess up like that.
    Because we aren't (as a rule) as cheap as UKers?
    Normally it’s some mixture of habit, fearing the shame you have at home if you don’t leave one, and ignorance. Americans don’t realise that leaving a tip in many countries can be seen as almost an insult.
    An insult that folks get over pretty quickly I reckon.
    No, an insult that can create problems for the tourists that follow, once people get accustomed to being insulted and not minding so much.
    Yes, at the risk of making an offensive analogy, it’s like feeding alligators

    Once alligators get used to being fed by humans, they expect the NEXT human to feed them, and when that human does not - disaster can ensue, as the human becomes the snack

    In a non-tipping culture, don’t tip

    Trouble is most countries are in the grey zone. At one end is America where you tip for everything, at the other is Japan where it is extremely rare

    I've never been in a British pub that expects tipping.
  • boulayboulay Posts: 5,486
    micktrain said:

    Stocky said:

    micktrain said:

    rcs1000 said:

    micktrain said:

    rcs1000 said:

    micktrain said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    micktrain said:

    kinabalu said:

    Stocky said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    This what the culture wars lead to.

    Nadine Dorries and the other collaborators in the UK culture war can feck right off.

    It’s a two way war, pal
    Republicans v women.

    pal.
    It’s not outrageous to believe that all human life begins at conception, and must therefore be protected as much as a baby

    I don’t agree but I respect that sincere belief honestly held by many in the USA

    Trouble is SOME right wingers have hijacked this cause as a way to monster the Left, as they believe the Left is bent on destroying the America they know

    It’s a war. Pal.
    Enough of this chippy 'pal' thing. It's a cringer.

    On the 'respect' front, for me it depends. People who believe abortion is morally wrong and (if a woman) would never contemplate it - I respect that. But people (esp men) who seek to impose that view by law on everyone else and in the process roll back the emancipation of women by 50 years - I don't respect that. I have contempt for it tbh.
    It's a subset of the right isn't it - the deeply religious conservative ones. Very niche over here thankfully. Plenty of them are women.
    A subset wielding disproportionate power atm for various reasons. Personally I think this is so gross that it won't hold. Can't say how exactly it will collapse but I'm pretty sure it will. You can't do this to women in 2022. You can't just sort of 'pretend' those struggles of the civil rights era never happened. I know the phrase 'wrong side of history' is over-bandied and can irritate, but it really does apply here.
    maybe the tide of history is turning...maybe women have decided they have had enough of the sexual revolution

    Dunno if you are a Russian bot, but this seems to me entirely plausible. Women can be much more socially conservative than men, see female genital mutilation, which is often preserved by the opinions of women (men tend not to care, or be anti)

    The same process is known to defending rape lawyers, who will always try to pack a jury with women, as they are more judgemental (“the slut was drunk and asking for it”)
    Women under 45 are more strongly pro-Choice than men under 45. Above 60, it's the other way around.
    it will be women who rollback the sexual revolution when they decide they are no longer benefitting from it...maybe they are sick of rough casual sex and men who wont commit or even working in large corporations for 60 hours per week to afford a house...at that point the whole sexual revolution collapses
    You do know that they aren't obliged to have rough casual sex? Women aren't forced to swipe left on Tinder.
    you have the classic "goldman sachs" type view of seeing us as a society of atomised indviduals...have you never heard of social pressure....that "goldman sachs" type view of people as atomised individuals has done tremendous harm
    While the "micktrain" worldview of seeking to control the behaviour of consenting adults has been utterly without problems, right?
    happy medium mate happy medium....society doesnt have to be saudi arabia nor the present day uk...there is a balance between outright sexual decadence and sexual repression
    Are we talking about sexual decadence though?

    Banning abortion means that females in normal relationships who have an accident or are naive and who do not want a baby - plus the male concerned who doesn't not want a baby either - are barred by state dictate from exercising choice.
    As someone who's lived in the UK for over 20 years, it's depressing to think I've missed out on all the sexual decadence going on around me. If we're living in the equivalent of the late Roman empire, please show me the way to all that rough sex. I'm ready to be brutalized.

    More seriously, it's amazing how ambivalent people can be about abortion until faced with financially supporting an unwanted kid. Than they're pro-choice all the way.
    the significance of today is it is the first major setback to the sexual revolution since it started in the 1960s with easily available contraception. Historians may lookback on today as the day when the sexual revolution started to go into reverse
    I tried to do a reverse sexual revolution with a girl once. Kicked her in the face by accident. Don’t try it, dude.
  • sladeslade Posts: 2,041

    Leon said:

    ON topic, have any PB-ers ever been to Montenegro?

    I have to move on soon, possibly tomorrow, and for various reasons I need to be a bit closer to civilisation than the Caucasus, yet I still fancy somewhere new (and not too far away)

    Montenegro fits the bill. Is it as lovely as it looks in photos? Food? Wine? People?

    IF you can, find & read "Njegos [Njegoš]: Poet, Prince, Bishop" by Milovan Djilas [Đilas] perhaps the most notable Montenegrin of the 20th century, famous for his role as one of Tito's key lieutenants with Partisans during WWII, and also for breaking with Stalin AND then Tito.

    This book is both Djilas's biography of the founder of the (semi) modern Montenegrin state AND also a love poem to the land and people of the Black Mountain.

    Djilas can be a rather turgid writer, but this book is one of his best, along with "Conversations with Stalin".

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milovan_Djilas

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petar_II_Petrović-Njegoš
    Djilas gave a couple of lectures at Manchester University in the early 1960s when I was a student there. He led me to a lifelong interest in Yugoslavia. I went to Montenegro in the 1980s when it was beginning to establish a semi-independent life for itself. The main tourist place is the Gulf of Kotor but if you go up the steep road at the head of it you get into a completely different place like the old capital of Cetinje.
  • micktrainmicktrain Posts: 137
    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    The reason I don't like tipping is nothing to do with being stingy. It's because I don't like trying to guess what someone else thinks is acceptable. Very stressful and ruins the experience.

    Yes. Exactly

    One of the most stressful things in travel is when you get off a long haul flight to a new foreign country and the dude at the posh hotels takes your bags to your room and shows you everything, and all the time you are thinking, Shit, do I have to give him something, surely I do, but I have no foreign currency, and even if I do, how much, etc etc etc etc

    Really quite unpleasant at what should be a sweet moment. Arrival. And it’s got worse as we’ve moved to a cashless economy

    The good news is that hotels have realised this - at least the better kind - and they do it a different way. Your bags should be sent up. You are given a key card. Make your own way. Much nicer
    dont you take out cash to get a cab or are you chauffered straight there
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277

    IanB2 said:

    IanB2 said:

    IanB2 said:

    Leon said:

    It’s actually rather cheering that you can still go to a beautiful fascinating historic civilised city and have a delicious meal - surrounded by politicians! - for £14 a head. Including plentiful and excellent local wine


    AND - listen up, Merika - no one expects a tip, and they are totally surprised, even bemused, when you leave one

    Always a sign of the clueless tourist, leaving a tip in a country where the culture is that you don’t. Normally it’s Americans that mess up like that.
    Because we aren't (as a rule) as cheap as UKers?
    Normally it’s some mixture of habit, fearing the shame you have at home if you don’t leave one, and ignorance. Americans don’t realise that leaving a tip in many countries can be seen as almost an insult.
    An insult that folks get over pretty quickly I reckon.
    No, an insult that can create problems for the tourists that follow, once people get accustomed to being insulted and not minding so much.
    Only for cheapskate tourists is a gratuity a "problem".
    I don’t think you understand. Would you offer money to a girl who sleeps with you because she likes you? Would you tip her?

    Of course not. That makes her a whore. Tipping in some cultures is just one step down from that and people can get properly offended, especially if it is the white man playing the big guy
  • micktrain said:

    Stocky said:

    micktrain said:

    rcs1000 said:

    micktrain said:

    rcs1000 said:

    micktrain said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    micktrain said:

    kinabalu said:

    Stocky said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    This what the culture wars lead to.

    Nadine Dorries and the other collaborators in the UK culture war can feck right off.

    It’s a two way war, pal
    Republicans v women.

    pal.
    It’s not outrageous to believe that all human life begins at conception, and must therefore be protected as much as a baby

    I don’t agree but I respect that sincere belief honestly held by many in the USA

    Trouble is SOME right wingers have hijacked this cause as a way to monster the Left, as they believe the Left is bent on destroying the America they know

    It’s a war. Pal.
    Enough of this chippy 'pal' thing. It's a cringer.

    On the 'respect' front, for me it depends. People who believe abortion is morally wrong and (if a woman) would never contemplate it - I respect that. But people (esp men) who seek to impose that view by law on everyone else and in the process roll back the emancipation of women by 50 years - I don't respect that. I have contempt for it tbh.
    It's a subset of the right isn't it - the deeply religious conservative ones. Very niche over here thankfully. Plenty of them are women.
    A subset wielding disproportionate power atm for various reasons. Personally I think this is so gross that it won't hold. Can't say how exactly it will collapse but I'm pretty sure it will. You can't do this to women in 2022. You can't just sort of 'pretend' those struggles of the civil rights era never happened. I know the phrase 'wrong side of history' is over-bandied and can irritate, but it really does apply here.
    maybe the tide of history is turning...maybe women have decided they have had enough of the sexual revolution

    Dunno if you are a Russian bot, but this seems to me entirely plausible. Women can be much more socially conservative than men, see female genital mutilation, which is often preserved by the opinions of women (men tend not to care, or be anti)

    The same process is known to defending rape lawyers, who will always try to pack a jury with women, as they are more judgemental (“the slut was drunk and asking for it”)
    Women under 45 are more strongly pro-Choice than men under 45. Above 60, it's the other way around.
    it will be women who rollback the sexual revolution when they decide they are no longer benefitting from it...maybe they are sick of rough casual sex and men who wont commit or even working in large corporations for 60 hours per week to afford a house...at that point the whole sexual revolution collapses
    You do know that they aren't obliged to have rough casual sex? Women aren't forced to swipe left on Tinder.
    you have the classic "goldman sachs" type view of seeing us as a society of atomised indviduals...have you never heard of social pressure....that "goldman sachs" type view of people as atomised individuals has done tremendous harm
    While the "micktrain" worldview of seeking to control the behaviour of consenting adults has been utterly without problems, right?
    happy medium mate happy medium....society doesnt have to be saudi arabia nor the present day uk...there is a balance between outright sexual decadence and sexual repression
    Are we talking about sexual decadence though?

    Banning abortion means that females in normal relationships who have an accident or are naive and who do not want a baby - plus the male concerned who doesn't not want a baby either - are barred by state dictate from exercising choice.
    As someone who's lived in the UK for over 20 years, it's depressing to think I've missed out on all the sexual decadence going on around me. If we're living in the equivalent of the late Roman empire, please show me the way to all that rough sex. I'm ready to be brutalized.

    More seriously, it's amazing how ambivalent people can be about abortion until faced with financially supporting an unwanted kid. Than they're pro-choice all the way.
    the significance of today is it is the first major setback to the sexual revolution since it started in the 1960s with easily available contraception. Historians may lookback on today as the day when the sexual revolution started to go into reverse
    The heyday of the sexual revolution for straight people (and men and women who liked to experiment with being bi) was in the 70s. Then came herpes, AIDS, Reagan, everybody getting older than dirt, etc. etc.

    I was in grade school in 1977, so I missed out on that as well.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,219

    With respect to the impact of the Sexual Revolution and it's relevance to Roe v Wade & today SCOTUS ruling, clear that Justice Kavanaugh brought some keen personal insights into the legal debate.

    After all, isn't his favorite cocktail being: Sex on the Beach.

    Reckon that Clarence Thomas's favorite is likely: Rum and Coke.

    Or a virgin Cuba Libre.
    Is that like a normal Cuba Libre... only with excellent branding and marketing and a big licencing fee paid to Sir Richard Beardie?
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,716
    Speaking to Times Radio, Lord Hague suggested members of the Cabinet should "steel themselves" to act and said he would resign if he was one of Mr Johnson's ministers.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,958
    Andy_JS said:

    Leon said:

    IanB2 said:

    IanB2 said:

    IanB2 said:

    Leon said:

    It’s actually rather cheering that you can still go to a beautiful fascinating historic civilised city and have a delicious meal - surrounded by politicians! - for £14 a head. Including plentiful and excellent local wine


    AND - listen up, Merika - no one expects a tip, and they are totally surprised, even bemused, when you leave one

    Always a sign of the clueless tourist, leaving a tip in a country where the culture is that you don’t. Normally it’s Americans that mess up like that.
    Because we aren't (as a rule) as cheap as UKers?
    Normally it’s some mixture of habit, fearing the shame you have at home if you don’t leave one, and ignorance. Americans don’t realise that leaving a tip in many countries can be seen as almost an insult.
    An insult that folks get over pretty quickly I reckon.
    No, an insult that can create problems for the tourists that follow, once people get accustomed to being insulted and not minding so much.
    Yes, at the risk of making an offensive analogy, it’s like feeding alligators

    Once alligators get used to being fed by humans, they expect the NEXT human to feed them, and when that human does not - disaster can ensue, as the human becomes the snack

    In a non-tipping culture, don’t tip

    Trouble is most countries are in the grey zone. At one end is America where you tip for everything, at the other is Japan where it is extremely rare

    I've never been in a British pub that expects tipping.
    My favoured local pub has excellent table service and I always tip.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    https://www.tripadvisor.co.uk/ShowTopic-g294194-i9343-k10586757-Tipping_practises-Georgia.html

    Actual Georgian from Georgia says she always tips in restaurants
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,838
    Leon said:

    IanB2 said:

    IanB2 said:

    IanB2 said:

    Leon said:

    It’s actually rather cheering that you can still go to a beautiful fascinating historic civilised city and have a delicious meal - surrounded by politicians! - for £14 a head. Including plentiful and excellent local wine


    AND - listen up, Merika - no one expects a tip, and they are totally surprised, even bemused, when you leave one

    Always a sign of the clueless tourist, leaving a tip in a country where the culture is that you don’t. Normally it’s Americans that mess up like that.
    Because we aren't (as a rule) as cheap as UKers?
    Normally it’s some mixture of habit, fearing the shame you have at home if you don’t leave one, and ignorance. Americans don’t realise that leaving a tip in many countries can be seen as almost an insult.
    An insult that folks get over pretty quickly I reckon.
    No, an insult that can create problems for the tourists that follow, once people get accustomed to being insulted and not minding so much.
    Only for cheapskate tourists is a gratuity a "problem".
    I don’t think you understand. Would you offer money to a girl who sleeps with you because she likes you? Would you tip her?

    Of course not. That makes her a whore. Tipping in some cultures is just one step down from that and people can get properly offended, especially if it is the white man playing the big guy
    https://www.google.co.uk/books/edition/What_the_Butler_Saw/qgqqAybHIA4C?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=servants+vails&printsec=frontcover

    Tips for servants were a huge problem in the C18 (not yours but other people's). Look for germain-en-laye in this - a nice example of tipping etiquette problems in the 18th century.
  • ApplicantApplicant Posts: 3,379

    Applicant said:

    The other thing to remember about the Scotus judgement is that the Republican majority on the court is courtesy of appointments made by a president who lost the popular vote. The US constitutional set up is a mess. And it has been weaponised by the Republicans in order to impose their views on a country that doesn't agree with them.

    The popular vote is irrelevant. If it were relevant, candidates would campaign in a different way.
    Sure, it's irrelevant because that's not how the votes are counted. It is extremely relevant when it comes to the question of legitimacy in a supposed democracy.
    No it isn't, because the electoral system doesn't work that way.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,557
    "Great Britain is decaying before our eyes
    Of course people are furious: nothing works, nobody is working, and everything is going to the dogs

    CAMILLA TOMINEY"

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/06/24/great-britain-decaying-eyes/
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,061

    IanB2 said:

    IanB2 said:

    IanB2 said:

    Leon said:

    It’s actually rather cheering that you can still go to a beautiful fascinating historic civilised city and have a delicious meal - surrounded by politicians! - for £14 a head. Including plentiful and excellent local wine


    AND - listen up, Merika - no one expects a tip, and they are totally surprised, even bemused, when you leave one

    Always a sign of the clueless tourist, leaving a tip in a country where the culture is that you don’t. Normally it’s Americans that mess up like that.
    Because we aren't (as a rule) as cheap as UKers?
    Normally it’s some mixture of habit, fearing the shame you have at home if you don’t leave one, and ignorance. Americans don’t realise that leaving a tip in many countries can be seen as almost an insult.
    An insult that folks get over pretty quickly I reckon.
    No, an insult that can create problems for the tourists that follow, once people get accustomed to being insulted and not minding so much.
    Only for cheapskate tourists is a gratuity a "problem".
    No, its a problem for those that find purchasing another humans servility and special attentions in place of a decent wage to be grossly offensive
  • CatManCatMan Posts: 3,058
    As ever, The Simpsons does it again:


  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,838

    Andy_JS said:

    Leon said:

    IanB2 said:

    IanB2 said:

    IanB2 said:

    Leon said:

    It’s actually rather cheering that you can still go to a beautiful fascinating historic civilised city and have a delicious meal - surrounded by politicians! - for £14 a head. Including plentiful and excellent local wine


    AND - listen up, Merika - no one expects a tip, and they are totally surprised, even bemused, when you leave one

    Always a sign of the clueless tourist, leaving a tip in a country where the culture is that you don’t. Normally it’s Americans that mess up like that.
    Because we aren't (as a rule) as cheap as UKers?
    Normally it’s some mixture of habit, fearing the shame you have at home if you don’t leave one, and ignorance. Americans don’t realise that leaving a tip in many countries can be seen as almost an insult.
    An insult that folks get over pretty quickly I reckon.
    No, an insult that can create problems for the tourists that follow, once people get accustomed to being insulted and not minding so much.
    Yes, at the risk of making an offensive analogy, it’s like feeding alligators

    Once alligators get used to being fed by humans, they expect the NEXT human to feed them, and when that human does not - disaster can ensue, as the human becomes the snack

    In a non-tipping culture, don’t tip

    Trouble is most countries are in the grey zone. At one end is America where you tip for everything, at the other is Japan where it is extremely rare

    I've never been in a British pub that expects tipping.
    My favoured local pub has excellent table service and I always tip.
    Me too.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559
    Leon said:

    IanB2 said:

    IanB2 said:

    IanB2 said:

    Leon said:

    It’s actually rather cheering that you can still go to a beautiful fascinating historic civilised city and have a delicious meal - surrounded by politicians! - for £14 a head. Including plentiful and excellent local wine


    AND - listen up, Merika - no one expects a tip, and they are totally surprised, even bemused, when you leave one

    Always a sign of the clueless tourist, leaving a tip in a country where the culture is that you don’t. Normally it’s Americans that mess up like that.
    Because we aren't (as a rule) as cheap as UKers?
    Normally it’s some mixture of habit, fearing the shame you have at home if you don’t leave one, and ignorance. Americans don’t realise that leaving a tip in many countries can be seen as almost an insult.
    An insult that folks get over pretty quickly I reckon.
    No, an insult that can create problems for the tourists that follow, once people get accustomed to being insulted and not minding so much.
    Yes, at the risk of making an offensive analogy, it’s like feeding alligators

    Once alligators get used to being fed by humans, they expect the NEXT human to feed them, and when that human does not - disaster can ensue, as the human becomes the snack

    In a non-tipping culture, don’t tip

    Trouble is most countries are in the grey zone. At one end is America where you tip for everything, at the other is Japan where it is extremely rare

    Don't most guide books (and some travel reportage) include information on local tipping customs?

    Personally have found a good approach is, checking out local custom beforehand - then asking in a bar or restaurant, "say, I've heard that it's considered inappropriate or impolite to give a tip in your country - is that so?" Actually a pretty good ice breaker.

    As gives distinct impression that
    > you are eager & willing to learn something about the country;
    > you are interested in and open to THEIR opinion and advice; and
    > you are willing to offer a tip IF it's the thing to do.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277
    IshmaelZ said:

    https://www.tripadvisor.co.uk/ShowTopic-g294194-i9343-k10586757-Tipping_practises-Georgia.html

    Actual Georgian from Georgia says she always tips in restaurants

    Yet look at that map on Wiki

    The only country besides Japan and Korea with zero tipping?

    Georgia

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gratuity
  • micktrainmicktrain Posts: 137

    micktrain said:

    Stocky said:

    micktrain said:

    rcs1000 said:

    micktrain said:

    rcs1000 said:

    micktrain said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    micktrain said:

    kinabalu said:

    Stocky said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    This what the culture wars lead to.

    Nadine Dorries and the other collaborators in the UK culture war can feck right off.

    It’s a two way war, pal
    Republicans v women.

    pal.
    It’s not outrageous to believe that all human life begins at conception, and must therefore be protected as much as a baby

    I don’t agree but I respect that sincere belief honestly held by many in the USA

    Trouble is SOME right wingers have hijacked this cause as a way to monster the Left, as they believe the Left is bent on destroying the America they know

    It’s a war. Pal.
    Enough of this chippy 'pal' thing. It's a cringer.

    On the 'respect' front, for me it depends. People who believe abortion is morally wrong and (if a woman) would never contemplate it - I respect that. But people (esp men) who seek to impose that view by law on everyone else and in the process roll back the emancipation of women by 50 years - I don't respect that. I have contempt for it tbh.
    It's a subset of the right isn't it - the deeply religious conservative ones. Very niche over here thankfully. Plenty of them are women.
    A subset wielding disproportionate power atm for various reasons. Personally I think this is so gross that it won't hold. Can't say how exactly it will collapse but I'm pretty sure it will. You can't do this to women in 2022. You can't just sort of 'pretend' those struggles of the civil rights era never happened. I know the phrase 'wrong side of history' is over-bandied and can irritate, but it really does apply here.
    maybe the tide of history is turning...maybe women have decided they have had enough of the sexual revolution

    Dunno if you are a Russian bot, but this seems to me entirely plausible. Women can be much more socially conservative than men, see female genital mutilation, which is often preserved by the opinions of women (men tend not to care, or be anti)

    The same process is known to defending rape lawyers, who will always try to pack a jury with women, as they are more judgemental (“the slut was drunk and asking for it”)
    Women under 45 are more strongly pro-Choice than men under 45. Above 60, it's the other way around.
    it will be women who rollback the sexual revolution when they decide they are no longer benefitting from it...maybe they are sick of rough casual sex and men who wont commit or even working in large corporations for 60 hours per week to afford a house...at that point the whole sexual revolution collapses
    You do know that they aren't obliged to have rough casual sex? Women aren't forced to swipe left on Tinder.
    you have the classic "goldman sachs" type view of seeing us as a society of atomised indviduals...have you never heard of social pressure....that "goldman sachs" type view of people as atomised individuals has done tremendous harm
    While the "micktrain" worldview of seeking to control the behaviour of consenting adults has been utterly without problems, right?
    happy medium mate happy medium....society doesnt have to be saudi arabia nor the present day uk...there is a balance between outright sexual decadence and sexual repression
    Are we talking about sexual decadence though?

    Banning abortion means that females in normal relationships who have an accident or are naive and who do not want a baby - plus the male concerned who doesn't not want a baby either - are barred by state dictate from exercising choice.
    As someone who's lived in the UK for over 20 years, it's depressing to think I've missed out on all the sexual decadence going on around me. If we're living in the equivalent of the late Roman empire, please show me the way to all that rough sex. I'm ready to be brutalized.

    More seriously, it's amazing how ambivalent people can be about abortion until faced with financially supporting an unwanted kid. Than they're pro-choice all the way.
    the significance of today is it is the first major setback to the sexual revolution since it started in the 1960s with easily available contraception. Historians may lookback on today as the day when the sexual revolution started to go into reverse
    The heyday of the sexual revolution for straight people (and men and women who liked to experiment with being bi) was in the 70s. Then came herpes, AIDS, Reagan, everybody getting older than dirt, etc. etc.

    I was in grade school in 1977, so I missed out on that as well.
    no i think the heyday was in the 90s pre the obsession with rape culture and post the section 28 1980s. I think sexual activity has actually been falling off the last 10 years as many studies show many young men not having sex over the past year. So the sexual revolution has in reality probably been reversing for a while....expect laws and legislation to follow...
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,219
    Foxy said:

    Stocky said:

    micktrain said:

    rcs1000 said:

    micktrain said:

    rcs1000 said:

    micktrain said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    micktrain said:

    kinabalu said:

    Stocky said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    This what the culture wars lead to.

    Nadine Dorries and the other collaborators in the UK culture war can feck right off.

    It’s a two way war, pal
    Republicans v women.

    pal.
    It’s not outrageous to believe that all human life begins at conception, and must therefore be protected as much as a baby

    I don’t agree but I respect that sincere belief honestly held by many in the USA

    Trouble is SOME right wingers have hijacked this cause as a way to monster the Left, as they believe the Left is bent on destroying the America they know

    It’s a war. Pal.
    Enough of this chippy 'pal' thing. It's a cringer.

    On the 'respect' front, for me it depends. People who believe abortion is morally wrong and (if a woman) would never contemplate it - I respect that. But people (esp men) who seek to impose that view by law on everyone else and in the process roll back the emancipation of women by 50 years - I don't respect that. I have contempt for it tbh.
    It's a subset of the right isn't it - the deeply religious conservative ones. Very niche over here thankfully. Plenty of them are women.
    A subset wielding disproportionate power atm for various reasons. Personally I think this is so gross that it won't hold. Can't say how exactly it will collapse but I'm pretty sure it will. You can't do this to women in 2022. You can't just sort of 'pretend' those struggles of the civil rights era never happened. I know the phrase 'wrong side of history' is over-bandied and can irritate, but it really does apply here.
    maybe the tide of history is turning...maybe women have decided they have had enough of the sexual revolution

    Dunno if you are a Russian bot, but this seems to me entirely plausible. Women can be much more socially conservative than men, see female genital mutilation, which is often preserved by the opinions of women (men tend not to care, or be anti)

    The same process is known to defending rape lawyers, who will always try to pack a jury with women, as they are more judgemental (“the slut was drunk and asking for it”)
    Women under 45 are more strongly pro-Choice than men under 45. Above 60, it's the other way around.
    it will be women who rollback the sexual revolution when they decide they are no longer benefitting from it...maybe they are sick of rough casual sex and men who wont commit or even working in large corporations for 60 hours per week to afford a house...at that point the whole sexual revolution collapses
    You do know that they aren't obliged to have rough casual sex? Women aren't forced to swipe left on Tinder.
    you have the classic "goldman sachs" type view of seeing us as a society of atomised indviduals...have you never heard of social pressure....that "goldman sachs" type view of people as atomised individuals has done tremendous harm
    While the "micktrain" worldview of seeking to control the behaviour of consenting adults has been utterly without problems, right?
    happy medium mate happy medium....society doesnt have to be saudi arabia nor the present day uk...there is a balance between outright sexual decadence and sexual repression
    Are we talking about sexual decadence though?

    Banning abortion means that females in normal relationships who have an accident or are naive and who do not want a baby - plus the male concerned who doesn't not want a baby either - are barred by state dictate from exercising choice.
    As someone who's lived in the UK for over 20 years, it's depressing to think I've missed out on all the sexual decadence going on around me. If we're living in the equivalent of the late Roman empire, please show me the way to all that rough sex. I'm ready to be brutalized.

    More seriously, it's amazing how ambivalent people can be about abortion until faced with financially supporting an unwanted kid. Than they're pro-choice all the way.
    I am fairly anti-abortion, but I do believe in freedom, and have no desire to impose my beliefs on others. As such I support individual women's right to choose.

    "Safe, legal and rare."

    Agree that, and everything else sane follows.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,716
    Gilead update:

    "Anti-abortion activists are already looking to a new goal: making abortion not just illegal, but “unthinkable.” “The truth is that the issue of abortion goes beyond politics and law,” Lila Rose, founder of Live Action, said. “We must persevere until abortion becomes unthinkable everywhere.” "

    NY Times

  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,838

    micktrain said:

    Stocky said:

    micktrain said:

    rcs1000 said:

    micktrain said:

    rcs1000 said:

    micktrain said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    micktrain said:

    kinabalu said:

    Stocky said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    This what the culture wars lead to.

    Nadine Dorries and the other collaborators in the UK culture war can feck right off.

    It’s a two way war, pal
    Republicans v women.

    pal.
    It’s not outrageous to believe that all human life begins at conception, and must therefore be protected as much as a baby

    I don’t agree but I respect that sincere belief honestly held by many in the USA

    Trouble is SOME right wingers have hijacked this cause as a way to monster the Left, as they believe the Left is bent on destroying the America they know

    It’s a war. Pal.
    Enough of this chippy 'pal' thing. It's a cringer.

    On the 'respect' front, for me it depends. People who believe abortion is morally wrong and (if a woman) would never contemplate it - I respect that. But people (esp men) who seek to impose that view by law on everyone else and in the process roll back the emancipation of women by 50 years - I don't respect that. I have contempt for it tbh.
    It's a subset of the right isn't it - the deeply religious conservative ones. Very niche over here thankfully. Plenty of them are women.
    A subset wielding disproportionate power atm for various reasons. Personally I think this is so gross that it won't hold. Can't say how exactly it will collapse but I'm pretty sure it will. You can't do this to women in 2022. You can't just sort of 'pretend' those struggles of the civil rights era never happened. I know the phrase 'wrong side of history' is over-bandied and can irritate, but it really does apply here.
    maybe the tide of history is turning...maybe women have decided they have had enough of the sexual revolution

    Dunno if you are a Russian bot, but this seems to me entirely plausible. Women can be much more socially conservative than men, see female genital mutilation, which is often preserved by the opinions of women (men tend not to care, or be anti)

    The same process is known to defending rape lawyers, who will always try to pack a jury with women, as they are more judgemental (“the slut was drunk and asking for it”)
    Women under 45 are more strongly pro-Choice than men under 45. Above 60, it's the other way around.
    it will be women who rollback the sexual revolution when they decide they are no longer benefitting from it...maybe they are sick of rough casual sex and men who wont commit or even working in large corporations for 60 hours per week to afford a house...at that point the whole sexual revolution collapses
    You do know that they aren't obliged to have rough casual sex? Women aren't forced to swipe left on Tinder.
    you have the classic "goldman sachs" type view of seeing us as a society of atomised indviduals...have you never heard of social pressure....that "goldman sachs" type view of people as atomised individuals has done tremendous harm
    While the "micktrain" worldview of seeking to control the behaviour of consenting adults has been utterly without problems, right?
    happy medium mate happy medium....society doesnt have to be saudi arabia nor the present day uk...there is a balance between outright sexual decadence and sexual repression
    Are we talking about sexual decadence though?

    Banning abortion means that females in normal relationships who have an accident or are naive and who do not want a baby - plus the male concerned who doesn't not want a baby either - are barred by state dictate from exercising choice.
    As someone who's lived in the UK for over 20 years, it's depressing to think I've missed out on all the sexual decadence going on around me. If we're living in the equivalent of the late Roman empire, please show me the way to all that rough sex. I'm ready to be brutalized.

    More seriously, it's amazing how ambivalent people can be about abortion until faced with financially supporting an unwanted kid. Than they're pro-choice all the way.
    the significance of today is it is the first major setback to the sexual revolution since it started in the 1960s with easily available contraception. Historians may lookback on today as the day when the sexual revolution started to go into reverse
    The heyday of the sexual revolution for straight people (and men and women who liked to experiment with being bi) was in the 70s. Then came herpes, AIDS, Reagan, everybody getting older than dirt, etc. etc.

    I was in grade school in 1977, so I missed out on that as well.
    I remmeber the feeling of growing up a teenager in the early 70s. That sense of having missed the bus was palpable.
  • ApplicantApplicant Posts: 3,379
    micktrain said:

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    The reason I don't like tipping is nothing to do with being stingy. It's because I don't like trying to guess what someone else thinks is acceptable. Very stressful and ruins the experience.

    Yes. Exactly

    One of the most stressful things in travel is when you get off a long haul flight to a new foreign country and the dude at the posh hotels takes your bags to your room and shows you everything, and all the time you are thinking, Shit, do I have to give him something, surely I do, but I have no foreign currency, and even if I do, how much, etc etc etc etc

    Really quite unpleasant at what should be a sweet moment. Arrival. And it’s got worse as we’ve moved to a cashless economy

    The good news is that hotels have realised this - at least the better kind - and they do it a different way. Your bags should be sent up. You are given a key card. Make your own way. Much nicer
    dont you take out cash to get a cab or are you chauffered straight there
    They take card. And that assumes you haven't booked the journey using an app.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,647
    edited June 2022

    micktrain said:

    Stocky said:

    micktrain said:

    rcs1000 said:

    micktrain said:

    rcs1000 said:

    micktrain said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    micktrain said:

    kinabalu said:

    Stocky said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    This what the culture wars lead to.

    Nadine Dorries and the other collaborators in the UK culture war can feck right off.

    It’s a two way war, pal
    Republicans v women.

    pal.
    It’s not outrageous to believe that all human life begins at conception, and must therefore be protected as much as a baby

    I don’t agree but I respect that sincere belief honestly held by many in the USA

    Trouble is SOME right wingers have hijacked this cause as a way to monster the Left, as they believe the Left is bent on destroying the America they know

    It’s a war. Pal.
    Enough of this chippy 'pal' thing. It's a cringer.

    On the 'respect' front, for me it depends. People who believe abortion is morally wrong and (if a woman) would never contemplate it - I respect that. But people (esp men) who seek to impose that view by law on everyone else and in the process roll back the emancipation of women by 50 years - I don't respect that. I have contempt for it tbh.
    It's a subset of the right isn't it - the deeply religious conservative ones. Very niche over here thankfully. Plenty of them are women.
    A subset wielding disproportionate power atm for various reasons. Personally I think this is so gross that it won't hold. Can't say how exactly it will collapse but I'm pretty sure it will. You can't do this to women in 2022. You can't just sort of 'pretend' those struggles of the civil rights era never happened. I know the phrase 'wrong side of history' is over-bandied and can irritate, but it really does apply here.
    maybe the tide of history is turning...maybe women have decided they have had enough of the sexual revolution

    Dunno if you are a Russian bot, but this seems to me entirely plausible. Women can be much more socially conservative than men, see female genital mutilation, which is often preserved by the opinions of women (men tend not to care, or be anti)

    The same process is known to defending rape lawyers, who will always try to pack a jury with women, as they are more judgemental (“the slut was drunk and asking for it”)
    Women under 45 are more strongly pro-Choice than men under 45. Above 60, it's the other way around.
    it will be women who rollback the sexual revolution when they decide they are no longer benefitting from it...maybe they are sick of rough casual sex and men who wont commit or even working in large corporations for 60 hours per week to afford a house...at that point the whole sexual revolution collapses
    You do know that they aren't obliged to have rough casual sex? Women aren't forced to swipe left on Tinder.
    you have the classic "goldman sachs" type view of seeing us as a society of atomised indviduals...have you never heard of social pressure....that "goldman sachs" type view of people as atomised individuals has done tremendous harm
    While the "micktrain" worldview of seeking to control the behaviour of consenting adults has been utterly without problems, right?
    happy medium mate happy medium....society doesnt have to be saudi arabia nor the present day uk...there is a balance between outright sexual decadence and sexual repression
    Are we talking about sexual decadence though?

    Banning abortion means that females in normal relationships who have an accident or are naive and who do not want a baby - plus the male concerned who doesn't not want a baby either - are barred by state dictate from exercising choice.
    As someone who's lived in the UK for over 20 years, it's depressing to think I've missed out on all the sexual decadence going on around me. If we're living in the equivalent of the late Roman empire, please show me the way to all that rough sex. I'm ready to be brutalized.

    More seriously, it's amazing how ambivalent people can be about abortion until faced with financially supporting an unwanted kid. Than they're pro-choice all the way.
    the significance of today is it is the first major setback to the sexual revolution since it started in the 1960s with easily available contraception. Historians may lookback on today as the day when the sexual revolution started to go into reverse
    The heyday of the sexual revolution for straight people (and men and women who liked to experiment with being bi) was in the 70s. Then came herpes, AIDS, Reagan, everybody getting older than dirt, etc. etc.

    I was in grade school in 1977, so I missed out on that as well.
    I would date it later, into the nineties, though also in grade school in 1977.

    The Sixties and Seventies had a lot of sexusl licence, but mostly for men, but there was a great deal of hypocracy over sexual liberation for women at that time. If was often exploitative and chauvinistic in those days, not to mention homophobic.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,094

    Andy_JS said:

    micktrain said:

    Scott_xP said:
    its all very interesting but i dont think a change of leader will save the tories
    Really? I can see Penny Mordaunt being a very difficult opponent for Keir Starmer.
    Really? Seems she cannot even compose an original tweet!
    ? Has she been copying Tweets? She's a very good media performer imo.
    Both posted short tweets saying that, after last night, their focus was on "delivery" of something or other unspecific.

    Evidently "delivery" is No. 10's buzz-word for this harsh morning-after.

    Whereas what most UKers seem to want, is deliverance from the likes of them and (esp) Big Dog.
    Ah, the old 'delivering on the priorities of the British people' that Boris takes every electoral set back as a coded command for. :lol:

    Well, if I were Mordaunt, I doubt I'd have bothered to jazz it up much either.
    Why does he only act to deliver after a setback? Can he not just do it?
  • UnpopularUnpopular Posts: 883
    Foxy said:

    Stocky said:

    micktrain said:

    rcs1000 said:

    micktrain said:

    rcs1000 said:

    micktrain said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    micktrain said:

    kinabalu said:

    Stocky said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    This what the culture wars lead to.

    Nadine Dorries and the other collaborators in the UK culture war can feck right off.

    It’s a two way war, pal
    Republicans v women.

    pal.
    It’s not outrageous to believe that all human life begins at conception, and must therefore be protected as much as a baby

    I don’t agree but I respect that sincere belief honestly held by many in the USA

    Trouble is SOME right wingers have hijacked this cause as a way to monster the Left, as they believe the Left is bent on destroying the America they know

    It’s a war. Pal.
    Enough of this chippy 'pal' thing. It's a cringer.

    On the 'respect' front, for me it depends. People who believe abortion is morally wrong and (if a woman) would never contemplate it - I respect that. But people (esp men) who seek to impose that view by law on everyone else and in the process roll back the emancipation of women by 50 years - I don't respect that. I have contempt for it tbh.
    It's a subset of the right isn't it - the deeply religious conservative ones. Very niche over here thankfully. Plenty of them are women.
    A subset wielding disproportionate power atm for various reasons. Personally I think this is so gross that it won't hold. Can't say how exactly it will collapse but I'm pretty sure it will. You can't do this to women in 2022. You can't just sort of 'pretend' those struggles of the civil rights era never happened. I know the phrase 'wrong side of history' is over-bandied and can irritate, but it really does apply here.
    maybe the tide of history is turning...maybe women have decided they have had enough of the sexual revolution

    Dunno if you are a Russian bot, but this seems to me entirely plausible. Women can be much more socially conservative than men, see female genital mutilation, which is often preserved by the opinions of women (men tend not to care, or be anti)

    The same process is known to defending rape lawyers, who will always try to pack a jury with women, as they are more judgemental (“the slut was drunk and asking for it”)
    Women under 45 are more strongly pro-Choice than men under 45. Above 60, it's the other way around.
    it will be women who rollback the sexual revolution when they decide they are no longer benefitting from it...maybe they are sick of rough casual sex and men who wont commit or even working in large corporations for 60 hours per week to afford a house...at that point the whole sexual revolution collapses
    You do know that they aren't obliged to have rough casual sex? Women aren't forced to swipe left on Tinder.
    you have the classic "goldman sachs" type view of seeing us as a society of atomised indviduals...have you never heard of social pressure....that "goldman sachs" type view of people as atomised individuals has done tremendous harm
    While the "micktrain" worldview of seeking to control the behaviour of consenting adults has been utterly without problems, right?
    happy medium mate happy medium....society doesnt have to be saudi arabia nor the present day uk...there is a balance between outright sexual decadence and sexual repression
    Are we talking about sexual decadence though?

    Banning abortion means that females in normal relationships who have an accident or are naive and who do not want a baby - plus the male concerned who doesn't not want a baby either - are barred by state dictate from exercising choice.
    As someone who's lived in the UK for over 20 years, it's depressing to think I've missed out on all the sexual decadence going on around me. If we're living in the equivalent of the late Roman empire, please show me the way to all that rough sex. I'm ready to be brutalized.

    More seriously, it's amazing how ambivalent people can be about abortion until faced with financially supporting an unwanted kid. Than they're pro-choice all the way.
    I am fairly anti-abortion, but I do believe in freedom, and have no desire to impose my beliefs on others. As such I support individual women's right to choose.

    I think that's a pretty average view-point in the UK. Most of the women I know, fairly educated and liberal, wouldn't personally get one but they're glad it's legal.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,061

    Gilead update:

    "Anti-abortion activists are already looking to a new goal: making abortion not just illegal, but “unthinkable.” “The truth is that the issue of abortion goes beyond politics and law,” Lila Rose, founder of Live Action, said. “We must persevere until abortion becomes unthinkable everywhere.” "

    NY Times

    Those bonnets are fucking hot though
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,405
    Andy_JS said:

    "Great Britain is decaying before our eyes
    Of course people are furious: nothing works, nobody is working, and everything is going to the dogs

    CAMILLA TOMINEY"

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/06/24/great-britain-decaying-eyes/

    Not quite my experience. Challenges to be sure, but a touch of the old hyperbole.
  • micktrainmicktrain Posts: 137
    Carnyx said:

    micktrain said:

    Stocky said:

    micktrain said:

    rcs1000 said:

    micktrain said:

    rcs1000 said:

    micktrain said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    micktrain said:

    kinabalu said:

    Stocky said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    This what the culture wars lead to.

    Nadine Dorries and the other collaborators in the UK culture war can feck right off.

    It’s a two way war, pal
    Republicans v women.

    pal.
    It’s not outrageous to believe that all human life begins at conception, and must therefore be protected as much as a baby

    I don’t agree but I respect that sincere belief honestly held by many in the USA

    Trouble is SOME right wingers have hijacked this cause as a way to monster the Left, as they believe the Left is bent on destroying the America they know

    It’s a war. Pal.
    Enough of this chippy 'pal' thing. It's a cringer.

    On the 'respect' front, for me it depends. People who believe abortion is morally wrong and (if a woman) would never contemplate it - I respect that. But people (esp men) who seek to impose that view by law on everyone else and in the process roll back the emancipation of women by 50 years - I don't respect that. I have contempt for it tbh.
    It's a subset of the right isn't it - the deeply religious conservative ones. Very niche over here thankfully. Plenty of them are women.
    A subset wielding disproportionate power atm for various reasons. Personally I think this is so gross that it won't hold. Can't say how exactly it will collapse but I'm pretty sure it will. You can't do this to women in 2022. You can't just sort of 'pretend' those struggles of the civil rights era never happened. I know the phrase 'wrong side of history' is over-bandied and can irritate, but it really does apply here.
    maybe the tide of history is turning...maybe women have decided they have had enough of the sexual revolution

    Dunno if you are a Russian bot, but this seems to me entirely plausible. Women can be much more socially conservative than men, see female genital mutilation, which is often preserved by the opinions of women (men tend not to care, or be anti)

    The same process is known to defending rape lawyers, who will always try to pack a jury with women, as they are more judgemental (“the slut was drunk and asking for it”)
    Women under 45 are more strongly pro-Choice than men under 45. Above 60, it's the other way around.
    it will be women who rollback the sexual revolution when they decide they are no longer benefitting from it...maybe they are sick of rough casual sex and men who wont commit or even working in large corporations for 60 hours per week to afford a house...at that point the whole sexual revolution collapses
    You do know that they aren't obliged to have rough casual sex? Women aren't forced to swipe left on Tinder.
    you have the classic "goldman sachs" type view of seeing us as a society of atomised indviduals...have you never heard of social pressure....that "goldman sachs" type view of people as atomised individuals has done tremendous harm
    While the "micktrain" worldview of seeking to control the behaviour of consenting adults has been utterly without problems, right?
    happy medium mate happy medium....society doesnt have to be saudi arabia nor the present day uk...there is a balance between outright sexual decadence and sexual repression
    Are we talking about sexual decadence though?

    Banning abortion means that females in normal relationships who have an accident or are naive and who do not want a baby - plus the male concerned who doesn't not want a baby either - are barred by state dictate from exercising choice.
    As someone who's lived in the UK for over 20 years, it's depressing to think I've missed out on all the sexual decadence going on around me. If we're living in the equivalent of the late Roman empire, please show me the way to all that rough sex. I'm ready to be brutalized.

    More seriously, it's amazing how ambivalent people can be about abortion until faced with financially supporting an unwanted kid. Than they're pro-choice all the way.
    the significance of today is it is the first major setback to the sexual revolution since it started in the 1960s with easily available contraception. Historians may lookback on today as the day when the sexual revolution started to go into reverse
    The heyday of the sexual revolution for straight people (and men and women who liked to experiment with being bi) was in the 70s. Then came herpes, AIDS, Reagan, everybody getting older than dirt, etc. etc.

    I was in grade school in 1977, so I missed out on that as well.
    I remmeber the feeling of growing up a teenager in the early 70s. That sense of having missed the bus was palpable.
    I think by 2050 we will look back on the late 20th century and not believe the level of sexual freedom there was in the same way medieval peasants looked back on the roman orgies
  • ApplicantApplicant Posts: 3,379

    IanB2 said:

    IanB2 said:

    IanB2 said:

    Leon said:

    It’s actually rather cheering that you can still go to a beautiful fascinating historic civilised city and have a delicious meal - surrounded by politicians! - for £14 a head. Including plentiful and excellent local wine


    AND - listen up, Merika - no one expects a tip, and they are totally surprised, even bemused, when you leave one

    Always a sign of the clueless tourist, leaving a tip in a country where the culture is that you don’t. Normally it’s Americans that mess up like that.
    Because we aren't (as a rule) as cheap as UKers?
    Normally it’s some mixture of habit, fearing the shame you have at home if you don’t leave one, and ignorance. Americans don’t realise that leaving a tip in many countries can be seen as almost an insult.
    An insult that folks get over pretty quickly I reckon.
    No, an insult that can create problems for the tourists that follow, once people get accustomed to being insulted and not minding so much.
    Only for cheapskate tourists is a gratuity a "problem".
    The rest of the world understands that waitstaff are employed by the restaurant and the cost of that employment should be included in the menu prices
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,061

    Foxy said:

    Stocky said:

    micktrain said:

    rcs1000 said:

    micktrain said:

    rcs1000 said:

    micktrain said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    micktrain said:

    kinabalu said:

    Stocky said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    This what the culture wars lead to.

    Nadine Dorries and the other collaborators in the UK culture war can feck right off.

    It’s a two way war, pal
    Republicans v women.

    pal.
    It’s not outrageous to believe that all human life begins at conception, and must therefore be protected as much as a baby

    I don’t agree but I respect that sincere belief honestly held by many in the USA

    Trouble is SOME right wingers have hijacked this cause as a way to monster the Left, as they believe the Left is bent on destroying the America they know

    It’s a war. Pal.
    Enough of this chippy 'pal' thing. It's a cringer.

    On the 'respect' front, for me it depends. People who believe abortion is morally wrong and (if a woman) would never contemplate it - I respect that. But people (esp men) who seek to impose that view by law on everyone else and in the process roll back the emancipation of women by 50 years - I don't respect that. I have contempt for it tbh.
    It's a subset of the right isn't it - the deeply religious conservative ones. Very niche over here thankfully. Plenty of them are women.
    A subset wielding disproportionate power atm for various reasons. Personally I think this is so gross that it won't hold. Can't say how exactly it will collapse but I'm pretty sure it will. You can't do this to women in 2022. You can't just sort of 'pretend' those struggles of the civil rights era never happened. I know the phrase 'wrong side of history' is over-bandied and can irritate, but it really does apply here.
    maybe the tide of history is turning...maybe women have decided they have had enough of the sexual revolution

    Dunno if you are a Russian bot, but this seems to me entirely plausible. Women can be much more socially conservative than men, see female genital mutilation, which is often preserved by the opinions of women (men tend not to care, or be anti)

    The same process is known to defending rape lawyers, who will always try to pack a jury with women, as they are more judgemental (“the slut was drunk and asking for it”)
    Women under 45 are more strongly pro-Choice than men under 45. Above 60, it's the other way around.
    it will be women who rollback the sexual revolution when they decide they are no longer benefitting from it...maybe they are sick of rough casual sex and men who wont commit or even working in large corporations for 60 hours per week to afford a house...at that point the whole sexual revolution collapses
    You do know that they aren't obliged to have rough casual sex? Women aren't forced to swipe left on Tinder.
    you have the classic "goldman sachs" type view of seeing us as a society of atomised indviduals...have you never heard of social pressure....that "goldman sachs" type view of people as atomised individuals has done tremendous harm
    While the "micktrain" worldview of seeking to control the behaviour of consenting adults has been utterly without problems, right?
    happy medium mate happy medium....society doesnt have to be saudi arabia nor the present day uk...there is a balance between outright sexual decadence and sexual repression
    Are we talking about sexual decadence though?

    Banning abortion means that females in normal relationships who have an accident or are naive and who do not want a baby - plus the male concerned who doesn't not want a baby either - are barred by state dictate from exercising choice.
    As someone who's lived in the UK for over 20 years, it's depressing to think I've missed out on all the sexual decadence going on around me. If we're living in the equivalent of the late Roman empire, please show me the way to all that rough sex. I'm ready to be brutalized.

    More seriously, it's amazing how ambivalent people can be about abortion until faced with financially supporting an unwanted kid. Than they're pro-choice all the way.
    I am fairly anti-abortion, but I do believe in freedom, and have no desire to impose my beliefs on others. As such I support individual women's right to choose.

    "Safe, legal and rare."

    Agree that, and everything else sane follows.
    Bingo lingo clickety click. Safe, legal and rare.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,781
    Applicant said:

    Applicant said:

    The other thing to remember about the Scotus judgement is that the Republican majority on the court is courtesy of appointments made by a president who lost the popular vote. The US constitutional set up is a mess. And it has been weaponised by the Republicans in order to impose their views on a country that doesn't agree with them.

    The popular vote is irrelevant. If it were relevant, candidates would campaign in a different way.
    Sure, it's irrelevant because that's not how the votes are counted. It is extremely relevant when it comes to the question of legitimacy in a supposed democracy.
    No it isn't, because the electoral system doesn't work that way.
    OK let me try this again. I know it doesn't work that way. The way it works was designed for bad reasons, has been maintained for bad reasons, is nonsensical and delivers outcomes that are out of line with what most people would consider to be fair or logical outcomes.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559

    IanB2 said:

    IanB2 said:

    IanB2 said:

    Leon said:

    It’s actually rather cheering that you can still go to a beautiful fascinating historic civilised city and have a delicious meal - surrounded by politicians! - for £14 a head. Including plentiful and excellent local wine


    AND - listen up, Merika - no one expects a tip, and they are totally surprised, even bemused, when you leave one

    Always a sign of the clueless tourist, leaving a tip in a country where the culture is that you don’t. Normally it’s Americans that mess up like that.
    Because we aren't (as a rule) as cheap as UKers?
    Normally it’s some mixture of habit, fearing the shame you have at home if you don’t leave one, and ignorance. Americans don’t realise that leaving a tip in many countries can be seen as almost an insult.
    An insult that folks get over pretty quickly I reckon.
    No, an insult that can create problems for the tourists that follow, once people get accustomed to being insulted and not minding so much.
    Only for cheapskate tourists is a gratuity a "problem".
    No, its a problem for those that find purchasing another humans servility and special attentions in place of a decent wage to be grossly offensive
    Then suggest the following approach:

    "As I find tipping to be a offense against equality and your human dignity, instead of offending you by offering you a servile gratuity, instead I shall write an sharp letter to your boss AND my MP demanding a fair living wage for you and yours. And please - no need to thank me!"

    Do you NOT tip at all? Or just grit you teeth while doing it?

    Do see your point, just cannot go with it whole hog, or even half-hog.
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