I have just joined the party so I can vote for the next leader. (I also voted in the last Labour election). I will be voting for whoever clamps down on low skill migrants. Theresa May did a great job on non-EU migration but they are opening up the floodgates again to replace lost EU migration. They need to seriously up the earnings thresholds for both work and family.
Obviously I think you are wrong, dead wrong about immigration.
But it is indeed bat-shit that flower arrangers et al are now allowed in under our “new improved” immigration measures.
I’m willing to bet anyone that there is no quantifiable difference in skill between our former European influx, and the new crowd who tend to come from Nigeria, the Philippines, and the Indian sub-continent.
I think that isn't quite true, because the flower arrangers need to earn 26k a year. That's way too low, but it is still a long way above Romanian beggars and Bulgarian strawberry pickers.
I don’t think that’s the right comparison though. Agricultural workers, and beggars, were not representative migrants.
In practice, a lot of EU migrants were university graduates from places like Italy, Spain etc who couldn’t get a job in their home countries.
They then picked up casual jobs - coffee shop or care work - but worked up the ladder from there with a mixture of hard work and smarts.
But we told them to fuck off, so that’s that.
No, we didn't.
We did. So they have.
I missed the part of the Brexit legislation about telling EU nationals to fuck off. There were a few reported incidents of abuse, and at least one murder that subsequently proved not to be about Brexit, but I really don’t think we told people to fuck off.
I think you are being woefully naive here.
Brexit took place in a cantankerous spirit of narrow-mindedness which started with Farage’s posters and culminated in tabloid campaigns against the judiciary. Hitherto serious politicos made comments about “starving Ireland” or “going to war with Spain”. Jeremy Hunt likened the EU to a Soviet gulag.
Perhaps there is some polling on how EU, and indeed even non-EU migrants experienced the ensuing culture war.
It wasn't just one sided though. I seem to remember the Taoiseach making some comments about cutting the UK off from any flights.
Looking at the numbers, we have somewhere north of 7m EU citizens.
If it was "fuck off" (it wasn't) it seems they ignored it.
It was, and they don’t come anymore. Mission accomplished.
Except that's demonstrably untrue. Recently published ONS stats for EU migration merely suggest that the numbers of people arriving from and returning to the EU were roughly in balance during the years ending mid-2020 and mid-2021 (24k net immigration to the UK in 2020, 12k net emigration from the UK in 2021.)
462,000 people, approximately equivalent to the entire population of Bristol, are estimated to have arrived from the EU over that two year period. Therefore, they're still coming.
Don't let facts get in the way of his small-minded bitter rants.
It's a bit dickless to say "Don't let facts get in the way of..." and very dickless indeed to chip in to someone else's argument like that because you haven't the balls to get into a fight directly. Yellow card.
In other news, I have emulated the Duke of York (hill-climbing-wise, not paedophilia) and admired the beacon close up. I hope Her Maj will be pleased.
What on earth are you dribbling on about? Read the thread!
I have just joined the party so I can vote for the next leader. (I also voted in the last Labour election). I will be voting for whoever clamps down on low skill migrants. Theresa May did a great job on non-EU migration but they are opening up the floodgates again to replace lost EU migration. They need to seriously up the earnings thresholds for both work and family.
Obviously I think you are wrong, dead wrong about immigration.
But it is indeed bat-shit that flower arrangers et al are now allowed in under our “new improved” immigration measures.
I’m willing to bet anyone that there is no quantifiable difference in skill between our former European influx, and the new crowd who tend to come from Nigeria, the Philippines, and the Indian sub-continent.
I think that isn't quite true, because the flower arrangers need to earn 26k a year. That's way too low, but it is still a long way above Romanian beggars and Bulgarian strawberry pickers.
I don’t think that’s the right comparison though. Agricultural workers, and beggars, were not representative migrants.
In practice, a lot of EU migrants were university graduates from places like Italy, Spain etc who couldn’t get a job in their home countries.
They then picked up casual jobs - coffee shop or care work - but worked up the ladder from there with a mixture of hard work and smarts.
But we told them to fuck off, so that’s that.
No, we didn't.
We did. So they have.
I missed the part of the Brexit legislation about telling EU nationals to fuck off. There were a few reported incidents of abuse, and at least one murder that subsequently proved not to be about Brexit, but I really don’t think we told people to fuck off.
I think you are being woefully naive here.
Brexit took place in a cantankerous spirit of narrow-mindedness which started with Farage’s posters and culminated in tabloid campaigns against the judiciary. Hitherto serious politicos made comments about “starving Ireland” or “going to war with Spain”. Jeremy Hunt likened the EU to a Soviet gulag.
Perhaps there is some polling on how EU, and indeed even non-EU migrants experienced the ensuing culture war.
It wasn't just one sided though. I seem to remember the Taoiseach making some comments about cutting the UK off from any flights.
Looking at the numbers, we have somewhere north of 7m EU citizens.
If it was "fuck off" (it wasn't) it seems they ignored it.
It was, and they don’t come anymore. Mission accomplished.
Except that's demonstrably untrue. Recently published ONS stats for EU migration merely suggest that the numbers of people arriving from and returning to the EU were roughly in balance during the years ending mid-2020 and mid-2021 (24k net immigration to the UK in 2020, 12k net emigration from the UK in 2021.)
462,000 people, approximately equivalent to the entire population of Bristol, are estimated to have arrived from the EU over that two year period. Therefore, they're still coming.
Balanced out - according to your own figures - by those leaving.
Mission accomplished.
Your assertion was that EU migrants weren't coming, because a post-Brexit wave of demented xenophobic cruelty had driven them away.
1. They are still coming. 2. Why would the aforementioned 462,000 people have chosen to immerse themselves in an environment where they were unwanted and abused? Are they all pig-ignorant of the supposed facts on the ground here, or are they all masochists?
No, that’s not my assertion.
I described the spirit of narrow-minded xenophobia that infused “long Brexit”, and explained how offensive it was to migrants (including myself). “Fuck off” was the message.
I then noted that EU migration was now essentially zero, ie “they have fucked off”.
Some choose to be pedantic with their responses, but I assume that’s because they don’t want the above on their conscience.
Pointing out that the facts show that you're spouting bullshit is not really "pedantic".
No, that was referring to some other posters. You just spew hate.
I have just joined the party so I can vote for the next leader. (I also voted in the last Labour election). I will be voting for whoever clamps down on low skill migrants. Theresa May did a great job on non-EU migration but they are opening up the floodgates again to replace lost EU migration. They need to seriously up the earnings thresholds for both work and family.
Obviously I think you are wrong, dead wrong about immigration.
But it is indeed bat-shit that flower arrangers et al are now allowed in under our “new improved” immigration measures.
I’m willing to bet anyone that there is no quantifiable difference in skill between our former European influx, and the new crowd who tend to come from Nigeria, the Philippines, and the Indian sub-continent.
I think that isn't quite true, because the flower arrangers need to earn 26k a year. That's way too low, but it is still a long way above Romanian beggars and Bulgarian strawberry pickers.
I don’t think that’s the right comparison though. Agricultural workers, and beggars, were not representative migrants.
In practice, a lot of EU migrants were university graduates from places like Italy, Spain etc who couldn’t get a job in their home countries.
They then picked up casual jobs - coffee shop or care work - but worked up the ladder from there with a mixture of hard work and smarts.
But we told them to fuck off, so that’s that.
No, we didn't.
We did. So they have.
I missed the part of the Brexit legislation about telling EU nationals to fuck off. There were a few reported incidents of abuse, and at least one murder that subsequently proved not to be about Brexit, but I really don’t think we told people to fuck off.
I think you are being woefully naive here.
Brexit took place in a cantankerous spirit of narrow-mindedness which started with Farage’s posters and culminated in tabloid campaigns against the judiciary. Hitherto serious politicos made comments about “starving Ireland” or “going to war with Spain”. Jeremy Hunt likened the EU to a Soviet gulag.
Perhaps there is some polling on how EU, and indeed even non-EU migrants experienced the ensuing culture war.
It wasn't just one sided though. I seem to remember the Taoiseach making some comments about cutting the UK off from any flights.
Looking at the numbers, we have somewhere north of 7m EU citizens.
If it was "fuck off" (it wasn't) it seems they ignored it.
It was, and they don’t come anymore. Mission accomplished.
A net 50,000 EU citizens came to the UK in 2019.
Indeed. Net migration from the EU remained positive from the referendum until the Covid restrictions of 2020 came into play. My expectation is that it will now be positive again. There are estimated to be 3.5 m EU residents in this country atm. That is about 5% of our population. The idea that they went home en masse because they were hated or unwelcome is frankly ridiculous.
Most of my EU colleagues have moved back. Not all, but most.
I don’t doubt your personal experience and it is not surprising that this is patchy but the overall figures are plain. The EU continues to be a net source of labour and skills to the UK. It may be a smaller percentage of our net immigration than it was before but it’s still net in.
The figures are plain in that EU migration is now essentially zero, whereas non-EU is now delivering the same volume we saw before from the EU.
50k a year is not "essentially zero". It is half of Cameron's immigration target from a part of the world covering just 6% of the global population.
The figure given upthread was net 12k in across 20 and 21. Undoubtedly suppressed by Covid, but that doesn’t seem to have stopped RoW.
Using the Covid numbers are laughable. It hasn't stopped the rest of the world because they relaxed controls there, so there was built up supply suddenly coming through.
You seem to be agreeing and disagreeing?
I’m surprised anyone managed to get into the country during Covid, but as you say it didn’t stop RoW migration.
I have just joined the party so I can vote for the next leader. (I also voted in the last Labour election). I will be voting for whoever clamps down on low skill migrants. Theresa May did a great job on non-EU migration but they are opening up the floodgates again to replace lost EU migration. They need to seriously up the earnings thresholds for both work and family.
Obviously I think you are wrong, dead wrong about immigration.
But it is indeed bat-shit that flower arrangers et al are now allowed in under our “new improved” immigration measures.
I’m willing to bet anyone that there is no quantifiable difference in skill between our former European influx, and the new crowd who tend to come from Nigeria, the Philippines, and the Indian sub-continent.
I think that isn't quite true, because the flower arrangers need to earn 26k a year. That's way too low, but it is still a long way above Romanian beggars and Bulgarian strawberry pickers.
I don’t think that’s the right comparison though. Agricultural workers, and beggars, were not representative migrants.
In practice, a lot of EU migrants were university graduates from places like Italy, Spain etc who couldn’t get a job in their home countries.
They then picked up casual jobs - coffee shop or care work - but worked up the ladder from there with a mixture of hard work and smarts.
But we told them to fuck off, so that’s that.
No, we didn't.
We did. So they have.
I missed the part of the Brexit legislation about telling EU nationals to fuck off. There were a few reported incidents of abuse, and at least one murder that subsequently proved not to be about Brexit, but I really don’t think we told people to fuck off.
I think you are being woefully naive here.
Brexit took place in a cantankerous spirit of narrow-mindedness which started with Farage’s posters and culminated in tabloid campaigns against the judiciary. Hitherto serious politicos made comments about “starving Ireland” or “going to war with Spain”. Jeremy Hunt likened the EU to a Soviet gulag.
Perhaps there is some polling on how EU, and indeed even non-EU migrants experienced the ensuing culture war.
It wasn't just one sided though. I seem to remember the Taoiseach making some comments about cutting the UK off from any flights.
Looking at the numbers, we have somewhere north of 7m EU citizens.
If it was "fuck off" (it wasn't) it seems they ignored it.
It was, and they don’t come anymore. Mission accomplished.
A net 50,000 EU citizens came to the UK in 2019.
Indeed. Net migration from the EU remained positive from the referendum until the Covid restrictions of 2020 came into play. My expectation is that it will now be positive again. There are estimated to be 3.5 m EU residents in this country atm. That is about 5% of our population. The idea that they went home en masse because they were hated or unwelcome is frankly ridiculous.
Most of my EU colleagues have moved back. Not all, but most.
I don’t doubt your personal experience and it is not surprising that this is patchy but the overall figures are plain. The EU continues to be a net source of labour and skills to the UK. It may be a smaller percentage of our net immigration than it was before but it’s still net in.
The figures are plain in that EU migration is now essentially zero, whereas non-EU is now delivering the same volume we saw before from the EU.
This will be shown to be rubbish later in the year. The only time we got close to zero was when a lot of them lost their jobs in hospitality thanks to Covid and even then the net 3.5m remained. The number coming remains high as others pointed out. It’s just temporarily the number leaving came close to that but that was an exceptional situation. You are simply showing your own bias and prejudice I’m afraid. This country remains one of the most welcoming in the world.
I’m sure the UK is more welcoming, that remiains true. However that doesn’t really characterise “Brexit”.
As with your bizarre apologetics for Boris, I’m afraid you live in a bit of a bubble.
I really have no idea what you are talking about in your last sentence. But whatever.
Next time I see one, I’ll let you know. You produce one every few days.
I have just joined the party so I can vote for the next leader. (I also voted in the last Labour election). I will be voting for whoever clamps down on low skill migrants. Theresa May did a great job on non-EU migration but they are opening up the floodgates again to replace lost EU migration. They need to seriously up the earnings thresholds for both work and family.
Obviously I think you are wrong, dead wrong about immigration.
But it is indeed bat-shit that flower arrangers et al are now allowed in under our “new improved” immigration measures.
I’m willing to bet anyone that there is no quantifiable difference in skill between our former European influx, and the new crowd who tend to come from Nigeria, the Philippines, and the Indian sub-continent.
I think that isn't quite true, because the flower arrangers need to earn 26k a year. That's way too low, but it is still a long way above Romanian beggars and Bulgarian strawberry pickers.
I don’t think that’s the right comparison though. Agricultural workers, and beggars, were not representative migrants.
In practice, a lot of EU migrants were university graduates from places like Italy, Spain etc who couldn’t get a job in their home countries.
They then picked up casual jobs - coffee shop or care work - but worked up the ladder from there with a mixture of hard work and smarts.
But we told them to fuck off, so that’s that.
No, we didn't.
We did. So they have.
I missed the part of the Brexit legislation about telling EU nationals to fuck off. There were a few reported incidents of abuse, and at least one murder that subsequently proved not to be about Brexit, but I really don’t think we told people to fuck off.
I think you are being woefully naive here.
Brexit took place in a cantankerous spirit of narrow-mindedness which started with Farage’s posters and culminated in tabloid campaigns against the judiciary. Hitherto serious politicos made comments about “starving Ireland” or “going to war with Spain”. Jeremy Hunt likened the EU to a Soviet gulag.
Perhaps there is some polling on how EU, and indeed even non-EU migrants experienced the ensuing culture war.
It wasn't just one sided though. I seem to remember the Taoiseach making some comments about cutting the UK off from any flights.
Nothing’s one sided, though.
What was - and remains - shocking was the latent nastiness that was unleashed in Britain.
Previously the general assumption was that the British were too sensible and stolidly good-mannered to descend to such levels, indeed that was much of the attraction.
Mate, you now live in America and you are attending to retire to New Zealand. It no longer has anything to do with you, so you can shut the fuck up
Not at all, I’m a British citizen with two British kids.
The worlds a lot more complicated that Brexiters realise. Well, apart from decimal currency; that’s a lot easier.
And it seems that Brexit was a lot more complicated than your simplistic reduction of it to nasty xenophobia.
I have just joined the party so I can vote for the next leader. (I also voted in the last Labour election). I will be voting for whoever clamps down on low skill migrants. Theresa May did a great job on non-EU migration but they are opening up the floodgates again to replace lost EU migration. They need to seriously up the earnings thresholds for both work and family.
Obviously I think you are wrong, dead wrong about immigration.
But it is indeed bat-shit that flower arrangers et al are now allowed in under our “new improved” immigration measures.
I’m willing to bet anyone that there is no quantifiable difference in skill between our former European influx, and the new crowd who tend to come from Nigeria, the Philippines, and the Indian sub-continent.
I think that isn't quite true, because the flower arrangers need to earn 26k a year. That's way too low, but it is still a long way above Romanian beggars and Bulgarian strawberry pickers.
I don’t think that’s the right comparison though. Agricultural workers, and beggars, were not representative migrants.
In practice, a lot of EU migrants were university graduates from places like Italy, Spain etc who couldn’t get a job in their home countries.
They then picked up casual jobs - coffee shop or care work - but worked up the ladder from there with a mixture of hard work and smarts.
But we told them to fuck off, so that’s that.
No, we didn't.
We did. So they have.
I missed the part of the Brexit legislation about telling EU nationals to fuck off. There were a few reported incidents of abuse, and at least one murder that subsequently proved not to be about Brexit, but I really don’t think we told people to fuck off.
I think you are being woefully naive here.
Brexit took place in a cantankerous spirit of narrow-mindedness which started with Farage’s posters and culminated in tabloid campaigns against the judiciary. Hitherto serious politicos made comments about “starving Ireland” or “going to war with Spain”. Jeremy Hunt likened the EU to a Soviet gulag.
Perhaps there is some polling on how EU, and indeed even non-EU migrants experienced the ensuing culture war.
It wasn't just one sided though. I seem to remember the Taoiseach making some comments about cutting the UK off from any flights.
Looking at the numbers, we have somewhere north of 7m EU citizens.
If it was "fuck off" (it wasn't) it seems they ignored it.
It was, and they don’t come anymore. Mission accomplished.
Except that's demonstrably untrue. Recently published ONS stats for EU migration merely suggest that the numbers of people arriving from and returning to the EU were roughly in balance during the years ending mid-2020 and mid-2021 (24k net immigration to the UK in 2020, 12k net emigration from the UK in 2021.)
462,000 people, approximately equivalent to the entire population of Bristol, are estimated to have arrived from the EU over that two year period. Therefore, they're still coming.
Don't let facts get in the way of his small-minded bitter rants.
It's a bit dickless to say "Don't let facts get in the way of..." and very dickless indeed to chip in to someone else's argument like that because you haven't the balls to get into a fight directly. Yellow card.
In other news, I have emulated the Duke of York (hill-climbing-wise, not paedophilia) and admired the beacon close up. I hope Her Maj will be pleased.
What on earth are you dribbling on about? Read the thread!
I have just joined the party so I can vote for the next leader. (I also voted in the last Labour election). I will be voting for whoever clamps down on low skill migrants. Theresa May did a great job on non-EU migration but they are opening up the floodgates again to replace lost EU migration. They need to seriously up the earnings thresholds for both work and family.
Obviously I think you are wrong, dead wrong about immigration.
But it is indeed bat-shit that flower arrangers et al are now allowed in under our “new improved” immigration measures.
I’m willing to bet anyone that there is no quantifiable difference in skill between our former European influx, and the new crowd who tend to come from Nigeria, the Philippines, and the Indian sub-continent.
I think that isn't quite true, because the flower arrangers need to earn 26k a year. That's way too low, but it is still a long way above Romanian beggars and Bulgarian strawberry pickers.
I don’t think that’s the right comparison though. Agricultural workers, and beggars, were not representative migrants.
In practice, a lot of EU migrants were university graduates from places like Italy, Spain etc who couldn’t get a job in their home countries.
They then picked up casual jobs - coffee shop or care work - but worked up the ladder from there with a mixture of hard work and smarts.
But we told them to fuck off, so that’s that.
No, we didn't.
We did. So they have.
I missed the part of the Brexit legislation about telling EU nationals to fuck off. There were a few reported incidents of abuse, and at least one murder that subsequently proved not to be about Brexit, but I really don’t think we told people to fuck off.
I think you are being woefully naive here.
Brexit took place in a cantankerous spirit of narrow-mindedness which started with Farage’s posters and culminated in tabloid campaigns against the judiciary. Hitherto serious politicos made comments about “starving Ireland” or “going to war with Spain”. Jeremy Hunt likened the EU to a Soviet gulag.
Perhaps there is some polling on how EU, and indeed even non-EU migrants experienced the ensuing culture war.
It wasn't just one sided though. I seem to remember the Taoiseach making some comments about cutting the UK off from any flights.
Looking at the numbers, we have somewhere north of 7m EU citizens.
If it was "fuck off" (it wasn't) it seems they ignored it.
It was, and they don’t come anymore. Mission accomplished.
Except that's demonstrably untrue. Recently published ONS stats for EU migration merely suggest that the numbers of people arriving from and returning to the EU were roughly in balance during the years ending mid-2020 and mid-2021 (24k net immigration to the UK in 2020, 12k net emigration from the UK in 2021.)
462,000 people, approximately equivalent to the entire population of Bristol, are estimated to have arrived from the EU over that two year period. Therefore, they're still coming.
Balanced out - according to your own figures - by those leaving.
Mission accomplished.
Your assertion was that EU migrants weren't coming, because a post-Brexit wave of demented xenophobic cruelty had driven them away.
1. They are still coming. 2. Why would the aforementioned 462,000 people have chosen to immerse themselves in an environment where they were unwanted and abused? Are they all pig-ignorant of the supposed facts on the ground here, or are they all masochists?
No, that’s not my assertion.
I described the spirit of narrow-minded xenophobia that infused “long Brexit”, and explained how offensive it was to migrants (including myself). “Fuck off” was the message.
I then noted that EU migration was now essentially zero, ie “they have fucked off”.
Some choose to be pedantic with their responses, but I assume that’s because they don’t want the above on their conscience.
Pointing out that the facts show that you're spouting bullshit is not really "pedantic".
No, that was referring to some other posters. You just spew hate.
I have just joined the party so I can vote for the next leader. (I also voted in the last Labour election). I will be voting for whoever clamps down on low skill migrants. Theresa May did a great job on non-EU migration but they are opening up the floodgates again to replace lost EU migration. They need to seriously up the earnings thresholds for both work and family.
Obviously I think you are wrong, dead wrong about immigration.
But it is indeed bat-shit that flower arrangers et al are now allowed in under our “new improved” immigration measures.
I’m willing to bet anyone that there is no quantifiable difference in skill between our former European influx, and the new crowd who tend to come from Nigeria, the Philippines, and the Indian sub-continent.
I think that isn't quite true, because the flower arrangers need to earn 26k a year. That's way too low, but it is still a long way above Romanian beggars and Bulgarian strawberry pickers.
I don’t think that’s the right comparison though. Agricultural workers, and beggars, were not representative migrants.
In practice, a lot of EU migrants were university graduates from places like Italy, Spain etc who couldn’t get a job in their home countries.
They then picked up casual jobs - coffee shop or care work - but worked up the ladder from there with a mixture of hard work and smarts.
But we told them to fuck off, so that’s that.
No, we didn't.
We did. So they have.
I missed the part of the Brexit legislation about telling EU nationals to fuck off. There were a few reported incidents of abuse, and at least one murder that subsequently proved not to be about Brexit, but I really don’t think we told people to fuck off.
I think you are being woefully naive here.
Brexit took place in a cantankerous spirit of narrow-mindedness which started with Farage’s posters and culminated in tabloid campaigns against the judiciary. Hitherto serious politicos made comments about “starving Ireland” or “going to war with Spain”. Jeremy Hunt likened the EU to a Soviet gulag.
Perhaps there is some polling on how EU, and indeed even non-EU migrants experienced the ensuing culture war.
It wasn't just one sided though. I seem to remember the Taoiseach making some comments about cutting the UK off from any flights.
Looking at the numbers, we have somewhere north of 7m EU citizens.
If it was "fuck off" (it wasn't) it seems they ignored it.
It was, and they don’t come anymore. Mission accomplished.
A net 50,000 EU citizens came to the UK in 2019.
Indeed. Net migration from the EU remained positive from the referendum until the Covid restrictions of 2020 came into play. My expectation is that it will now be positive again. There are estimated to be 3.5 m EU residents in this country atm. That is about 5% of our population. The idea that they went home en masse because they were hated or unwelcome is frankly ridiculous.
Most of my EU colleagues have moved back. Not all, but most.
I don’t doubt your personal experience and it is not surprising that this is patchy but the overall figures are plain. The EU continues to be a net source of labour and skills to the UK. It may be a smaller percentage of our net immigration than it was before but it’s still net in.
The figures are plain in that EU migration is now essentially zero, whereas non-EU is now delivering the same volume we saw before from the EU.
50k a year is not "essentially zero". It is half of Cameron's immigration target from a part of the world covering just 6% of the global population.
The figure given upthread was net 12k in across 20 and 21. Undoubtedly suppressed by Covid, but that doesn’t seem to have stopped RoW.
Using the Covid numbers are laughable. It hasn't stopped the rest of the world because they relaxed controls there, so there was built up supply suddenly coming through.
You seem to be agreeing and disagreeing?
I’m surprised anyone managed to get into the country during Covid, but as you say it didn’t stop RoW migration.
Who is to say RoW migration wouldn't be 5x if COVID stopped?
Utterly bizarre, nay bonkers, that this idea "but republics are boring" narrative has crept in. What the fuck are you people even on about? Do you leap out of bed every morning with a spring in your step because the moment your eyes crack open you remember WE HAVE A QUEEN‽
I do
Likewise, but my alarm is God Save The Queen which might explain it.
I have just joined the party so I can vote for the next leader. (I also voted in the last Labour election). I will be voting for whoever clamps down on low skill migrants. Theresa May did a great job on non-EU migration but they are opening up the floodgates again to replace lost EU migration. They need to seriously up the earnings thresholds for both work and family.
Obviously I think you are wrong, dead wrong about immigration.
But it is indeed bat-shit that flower arrangers et al are now allowed in under our “new improved” immigration measures.
I’m willing to bet anyone that there is no quantifiable difference in skill between our former European influx, and the new crowd who tend to come from Nigeria, the Philippines, and the Indian sub-continent.
I think that isn't quite true, because the flower arrangers need to earn 26k a year. That's way too low, but it is still a long way above Romanian beggars and Bulgarian strawberry pickers.
I don’t think that’s the right comparison though. Agricultural workers, and beggars, were not representative migrants.
In practice, a lot of EU migrants were university graduates from places like Italy, Spain etc who couldn’t get a job in their home countries.
They then picked up casual jobs - coffee shop or care work - but worked up the ladder from there with a mixture of hard work and smarts.
But we told them to fuck off, so that’s that.
No, we didn't.
We did. So they have.
I missed the part of the Brexit legislation about telling EU nationals to fuck off. There were a few reported incidents of abuse, and at least one murder that subsequently proved not to be about Brexit, but I really don’t think we told people to fuck off.
I think you are being woefully naive here.
Brexit took place in a cantankerous spirit of narrow-mindedness which started with Farage’s posters and culminated in tabloid campaigns against the judiciary. Hitherto serious politicos made comments about “starving Ireland” or “going to war with Spain”. Jeremy Hunt likened the EU to a Soviet gulag.
Perhaps there is some polling on how EU, and indeed even non-EU migrants experienced the ensuing culture war.
It wasn't just one sided though. I seem to remember the Taoiseach making some comments about cutting the UK off from any flights.
Nothing’s one sided, though.
What was - and remains - shocking was the latent nastiness that was unleashed in Britain.
Previously the general assumption was that the British were too sensible and stolidly good-mannered to descend to such levels, indeed that was much of the attraction.
Mate, you now live in America and you are attending to retire to New Zealand. It no longer has anything to do with you, so you can shut the fuck up
Not at all, I’m a British citizen with two British kids.
The worlds a lot more complicated that Brexiters realise. Well, apart from decimal currency; that’s a lot easier.
And it seems that Brexit was a lot more complicated than your simplistic reduction of it to nasty xenophobia.
Nasty xenophobia was one, though of course not the only, presiding spirit of Brexit.
It astonished me that hordes of people don’t get it, but I believe there’s a psychological term for it.
“Mosques in Minneapolis are preparing to publicly broadcast the Islamic call to prayer over loudspeakers after the community became the first large U.S city to allow it. apne.ws/7D26SCY”
Really. Go to Albania and find that being woken up by the muezzin at silly o'clock is just part of life. It's no big deal.
Why would it not be as irritating as fuck? Having X happen when you want X not to happen is by definition annoying, including being woken up, and I don't see what a bit of seasoned-traveller, rub-along-with-all-sorts, lifes-rich-tapestry bollocks about Albania adds to the mix. What the fuck is special about the poxy muezzins of Albania? Is it the world's only muslim country?
Once you allow it, then it swiftly becomes insanely loud
“JAKARTA: Every morning Rina is jolted awake at 3am by blaring speakers so loud she has developed an anxiety disorder: she can't sleep, she's too nauseous to eat -- but she is also too scared to complain because doing so could see her jailed or attacked.
The noisy neighbour is the local mosque in her Jakarta suburb, and the clamorous sound is the call to prayer.”
It’s a bit like American gun law. The 2nd amendment was written at a time of muskets and local militias, it didn’t envisage assault rifles and AK47s
The call to prayer can be a mellifluous thing if sung by one man quietly in a minaret (tho even then it should be severely regulated). The Koran did not envisage massive amplifying systems and mosques competing for worshippers
I've never heard a peep out of the Regent's Park mosque when trudging back and forth to Lord's so I assume they're content to go about their prayers without upsetting everyone else.
I have just joined the party so I can vote for the next leader. (I also voted in the last Labour election). I will be voting for whoever clamps down on low skill migrants. Theresa May did a great job on non-EU migration but they are opening up the floodgates again to replace lost EU migration. They need to seriously up the earnings thresholds for both work and family.
Obviously I think you are wrong, dead wrong about immigration.
But it is indeed bat-shit that flower arrangers et al are now allowed in under our “new improved” immigration measures.
I’m willing to bet anyone that there is no quantifiable difference in skill between our former European influx, and the new crowd who tend to come from Nigeria, the Philippines, and the Indian sub-continent.
I think that isn't quite true, because the flower arrangers need to earn 26k a year. That's way too low, but it is still a long way above Romanian beggars and Bulgarian strawberry pickers.
I don’t think that’s the right comparison though. Agricultural workers, and beggars, were not representative migrants.
In practice, a lot of EU migrants were university graduates from places like Italy, Spain etc who couldn’t get a job in their home countries.
They then picked up casual jobs - coffee shop or care work - but worked up the ladder from there with a mixture of hard work and smarts.
But we told them to fuck off, so that’s that.
No, we didn't.
We did. So they have.
I missed the part of the Brexit legislation about telling EU nationals to fuck off. There were a few reported incidents of abuse, and at least one murder that subsequently proved not to be about Brexit, but I really don’t think we told people to fuck off.
I think you are being woefully naive here.
Brexit took place in a cantankerous spirit of narrow-mindedness which started with Farage’s posters and culminated in tabloid campaigns against the judiciary. Hitherto serious politicos made comments about “starving Ireland” or “going to war with Spain”. Jeremy Hunt likened the EU to a Soviet gulag.
Perhaps there is some polling on how EU, and indeed even non-EU migrants experienced the ensuing culture war.
I know emotions ran high over that period but some of the things you've posted there are simply not true. Priti Patel never said anything that even remotely approximated to “starving Ireland” and the fact that people continue to repeat that she did just shows that it was a far more successful piece of fake news than anything the Leave campaign ever came up with.
The misquoting and mythology on the Remain side is astonishing. Raab said he "hadn't appreciated the full extent" of how much trade went through Dover-Calais and this is still repeated everywhere as he didn't know it was our made export route.
What Raab said was: "We are, and I hadn't quite understood the full extent of this, but if you look at the UK and if you look at how we trade in goods, we are particularly reliant on the Dover-Calais crossing." https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46142188
So either Raab did not know Dover-Calais is our main trade route, or he did know but did not know by what margin it is our main trade route. Given Raab must have known Dover-Calais is *a* trade route, which is the more natural meaning?
“Mosques in Minneapolis are preparing to publicly broadcast the Islamic call to prayer over loudspeakers after the community became the first large U.S city to allow it. apne.ws/7D26SCY”
Unnecessary, though. The call to prayer made sense in a world before watches, phones etc. In a secular society/community where Islam is a minority belief, broadcasting a call to prayer ain’t on, imo.
Should we ban church bells too, for the same reason?
Are church bells rung multiple times a day, every day, throughout the year, and then electronically amplified so you can hear them in every home?
No
I can hear the church bells in my in-laws house several times a day. The church is half a mile away.
It's not loud enough to wake a person, though. If it were I'd find it a lot less pleasant. Intolerable even.
Seems like an obvious compromise would be to allow the call to prayer, but to limit the volume.
I don't think they should allow any new call to prayer or church bells more than once a week. If you have done it since time immemorial I can understand grandfathering it in.
I have just joined the party so I can vote for the next leader. (I also voted in the last Labour election). I will be voting for whoever clamps down on low skill migrants. Theresa May did a great job on non-EU migration but they are opening up the floodgates again to replace lost EU migration. They need to seriously up the earnings thresholds for both work and family.
Obviously I think you are wrong, dead wrong about immigration.
But it is indeed bat-shit that flower arrangers et al are now allowed in under our “new improved” immigration measures.
I’m willing to bet anyone that there is no quantifiable difference in skill between our former European influx, and the new crowd who tend to come from Nigeria, the Philippines, and the Indian sub-continent.
I think that isn't quite true, because the flower arrangers need to earn 26k a year. That's way too low, but it is still a long way above Romanian beggars and Bulgarian strawberry pickers.
I don’t think that’s the right comparison though. Agricultural workers, and beggars, were not representative migrants.
In practice, a lot of EU migrants were university graduates from places like Italy, Spain etc who couldn’t get a job in their home countries.
They then picked up casual jobs - coffee shop or care work - but worked up the ladder from there with a mixture of hard work and smarts.
But we told them to fuck off, so that’s that.
No, we didn't.
We did. So they have.
I missed the part of the Brexit legislation about telling EU nationals to fuck off. There were a few reported incidents of abuse, and at least one murder that subsequently proved not to be about Brexit, but I really don’t think we told people to fuck off.
I think you are being woefully naive here.
Brexit took place in a cantankerous spirit of narrow-mindedness which started with Farage’s posters and culminated in tabloid campaigns against the judiciary. Hitherto serious politicos made comments about “starving Ireland” or “going to war with Spain”. Jeremy Hunt likened the EU to a Soviet gulag.
Perhaps there is some polling on how EU, and indeed even non-EU migrants experienced the ensuing culture war.
It wasn't just one sided though. I seem to remember the Taoiseach making some comments about cutting the UK off from any flights.
Looking at the numbers, we have somewhere north of 7m EU citizens.
If it was "fuck off" (it wasn't) it seems they ignored it.
It was, and they don’t come anymore. Mission accomplished.
Except that's demonstrably untrue. Recently published ONS stats for EU migration merely suggest that the numbers of people arriving from and returning to the EU were roughly in balance during the years ending mid-2020 and mid-2021 (24k net immigration to the UK in 2020, 12k net emigration from the UK in 2021.)
462,000 people, approximately equivalent to the entire population of Bristol, are estimated to have arrived from the EU over that two year period. Therefore, they're still coming.
Don't let facts get in the way of his small-minded bitter rants.
It's a bit dickless to say "Don't let facts get in the way of..." and very dickless indeed to chip in to someone else's argument like that because you haven't the balls to get into a fight directly. Yellow card.
In other news, I have emulated the Duke of York (hill-climbing-wise, not paedophilia) and admired the beacon close up. I hope Her Maj will be pleased.
What on earth are you dribbling on about? Read the thread!
I have just joined the party so I can vote for the next leader. (I also voted in the last Labour election). I will be voting for whoever clamps down on low skill migrants. Theresa May did a great job on non-EU migration but they are opening up the floodgates again to replace lost EU migration. They need to seriously up the earnings thresholds for both work and family.
Obviously I think you are wrong, dead wrong about immigration.
But it is indeed bat-shit that flower arrangers et al are now allowed in under our “new improved” immigration measures.
I’m willing to bet anyone that there is no quantifiable difference in skill between our former European influx, and the new crowd who tend to come from Nigeria, the Philippines, and the Indian sub-continent.
I think that isn't quite true, because the flower arrangers need to earn 26k a year. That's way too low, but it is still a long way above Romanian beggars and Bulgarian strawberry pickers.
I don’t think that’s the right comparison though. Agricultural workers, and beggars, were not representative migrants.
In practice, a lot of EU migrants were university graduates from places like Italy, Spain etc who couldn’t get a job in their home countries.
They then picked up casual jobs - coffee shop or care work - but worked up the ladder from there with a mixture of hard work and smarts.
But we told them to fuck off, so that’s that.
No, we didn't.
We did. So they have.
I missed the part of the Brexit legislation about telling EU nationals to fuck off. There were a few reported incidents of abuse, and at least one murder that subsequently proved not to be about Brexit, but I really don’t think we told people to fuck off.
I think you are being woefully naive here.
Brexit took place in a cantankerous spirit of narrow-mindedness which started with Farage’s posters and culminated in tabloid campaigns against the judiciary. Hitherto serious politicos made comments about “starving Ireland” or “going to war with Spain”. Jeremy Hunt likened the EU to a Soviet gulag.
Perhaps there is some polling on how EU, and indeed even non-EU migrants experienced the ensuing culture war.
It wasn't just one sided though. I seem to remember the Taoiseach making some comments about cutting the UK off from any flights.
Looking at the numbers, we have somewhere north of 7m EU citizens.
If it was "fuck off" (it wasn't) it seems they ignored it.
It was, and they don’t come anymore. Mission accomplished.
Except that's demonstrably untrue. Recently published ONS stats for EU migration merely suggest that the numbers of people arriving from and returning to the EU were roughly in balance during the years ending mid-2020 and mid-2021 (24k net immigration to the UK in 2020, 12k net emigration from the UK in 2021.)
462,000 people, approximately equivalent to the entire population of Bristol, are estimated to have arrived from the EU over that two year period. Therefore, they're still coming.
Balanced out - according to your own figures - by those leaving.
Mission accomplished.
Your assertion was that EU migrants weren't coming, because a post-Brexit wave of demented xenophobic cruelty had driven them away.
1. They are still coming. 2. Why would the aforementioned 462,000 people have chosen to immerse themselves in an environment where they were unwanted and abused? Are they all pig-ignorant of the supposed facts on the ground here, or are they all masochists?
No, that’s not my assertion.
I described the spirit of narrow-minded xenophobia that infused “long Brexit”, and explained how offensive it was to migrants (including myself). “Fuck off” was the message.
I then noted that EU migration was now essentially zero, ie “they have fucked off”.
Some choose to be pedantic with their responses, but I assume that’s because they don’t want the above on their conscience.
Pointing out that the facts show that you're spouting bullshit is not really "pedantic".
No, that was referring to some other posters. You just spew hate.
I have just joined the party so I can vote for the next leader. (I also voted in the last Labour election). I will be voting for whoever clamps down on low skill migrants. Theresa May did a great job on non-EU migration but they are opening up the floodgates again to replace lost EU migration. They need to seriously up the earnings thresholds for both work and family.
Obviously I think you are wrong, dead wrong about immigration.
But it is indeed bat-shit that flower arrangers et al are now allowed in under our “new improved” immigration measures.
I’m willing to bet anyone that there is no quantifiable difference in skill between our former European influx, and the new crowd who tend to come from Nigeria, the Philippines, and the Indian sub-continent.
I think that isn't quite true, because the flower arrangers need to earn 26k a year. That's way too low, but it is still a long way above Romanian beggars and Bulgarian strawberry pickers.
I don’t think that’s the right comparison though. Agricultural workers, and beggars, were not representative migrants.
In practice, a lot of EU migrants were university graduates from places like Italy, Spain etc who couldn’t get a job in their home countries.
They then picked up casual jobs - coffee shop or care work - but worked up the ladder from there with a mixture of hard work and smarts.
But we told them to fuck off, so that’s that.
No, we didn't.
We did. So they have.
I missed the part of the Brexit legislation about telling EU nationals to fuck off. There were a few reported incidents of abuse, and at least one murder that subsequently proved not to be about Brexit, but I really don’t think we told people to fuck off.
I think you are being woefully naive here.
Brexit took place in a cantankerous spirit of narrow-mindedness which started with Farage’s posters and culminated in tabloid campaigns against the judiciary. Hitherto serious politicos made comments about “starving Ireland” or “going to war with Spain”. Jeremy Hunt likened the EU to a Soviet gulag.
Perhaps there is some polling on how EU, and indeed even non-EU migrants experienced the ensuing culture war.
It wasn't just one sided though. I seem to remember the Taoiseach making some comments about cutting the UK off from any flights.
Looking at the numbers, we have somewhere north of 7m EU citizens.
If it was "fuck off" (it wasn't) it seems they ignored it.
It was, and they don’t come anymore. Mission accomplished.
A net 50,000 EU citizens came to the UK in 2019.
Indeed. Net migration from the EU remained positive from the referendum until the Covid restrictions of 2020 came into play. My expectation is that it will now be positive again. There are estimated to be 3.5 m EU residents in this country atm. That is about 5% of our population. The idea that they went home en masse because they were hated or unwelcome is frankly ridiculous.
Most of my EU colleagues have moved back. Not all, but most.
I don’t doubt your personal experience and it is not surprising that this is patchy but the overall figures are plain. The EU continues to be a net source of labour and skills to the UK. It may be a smaller percentage of our net immigration than it was before but it’s still net in.
The figures are plain in that EU migration is now essentially zero, whereas non-EU is now delivering the same volume we saw before from the EU.
50k a year is not "essentially zero". It is half of Cameron's immigration target from a part of the world covering just 6% of the global population.
The figure given upthread was net 12k in across 20 and 21. Undoubtedly suppressed by Covid, but that doesn’t seem to have stopped RoW.
Using the Covid numbers are laughable. It hasn't stopped the rest of the world because they relaxed controls there, so there was built up supply suddenly coming through.
You seem to be agreeing and disagreeing?
I’m surprised anyone managed to get into the country during Covid, but as you say it didn’t stop RoW migration.
Who is to say RoW migration wouldn't be 5x if COVID stopped?
I dunno. I’m as surprised as anyone.
My argument though is simply about the rhetoric and character of “long Brexit” and it’s affect on the migrant experience.
“Mosques in Minneapolis are preparing to publicly broadcast the Islamic call to prayer over loudspeakers after the community became the first large U.S city to allow it. apne.ws/7D26SCY”
Unnecessary, though. The call to prayer made sense in a world before watches, phones etc. In a secular society/community where Islam is a minority belief, broadcasting a call to prayer ain’t on, imo.
Should we ban church bells too, for the same reason?
Are church bells rung multiple times a day, every day, throughout the year, and then electronically amplified so you can hear them in every home?
No
Them darkies are nothing but trouble aren't they with their horrible foreign habits?
I have just joined the party so I can vote for the next leader. (I also voted in the last Labour election). I will be voting for whoever clamps down on low skill migrants. Theresa May did a great job on non-EU migration but they are opening up the floodgates again to replace lost EU migration. They need to seriously up the earnings thresholds for both work and family.
Obviously I think you are wrong, dead wrong about immigration.
But it is indeed bat-shit that flower arrangers et al are now allowed in under our “new improved” immigration measures.
I’m willing to bet anyone that there is no quantifiable difference in skill between our former European influx, and the new crowd who tend to come from Nigeria, the Philippines, and the Indian sub-continent.
I think that isn't quite true, because the flower arrangers need to earn 26k a year. That's way too low, but it is still a long way above Romanian beggars and Bulgarian strawberry pickers.
I don’t think that’s the right comparison though. Agricultural workers, and beggars, were not representative migrants.
In practice, a lot of EU migrants were university graduates from places like Italy, Spain etc who couldn’t get a job in their home countries.
They then picked up casual jobs - coffee shop or care work - but worked up the ladder from there with a mixture of hard work and smarts.
But we told them to fuck off, so that’s that.
No, we didn't.
We did. So they have.
I missed the part of the Brexit legislation about telling EU nationals to fuck off. There were a few reported incidents of abuse, and at least one murder that subsequently proved not to be about Brexit, but I really don’t think we told people to fuck off.
I think you are being woefully naive here.
Brexit took place in a cantankerous spirit of narrow-mindedness which started with Farage’s posters and culminated in tabloid campaigns against the judiciary. Hitherto serious politicos made comments about “starving Ireland” or “going to war with Spain”. Jeremy Hunt likened the EU to a Soviet gulag.
Perhaps there is some polling on how EU, and indeed even non-EU migrants experienced the ensuing culture war.
It wasn't just one sided though. I seem to remember the Taoiseach making some comments about cutting the UK off from any flights.
Looking at the numbers, we have somewhere north of 7m EU citizens.
If it was "fuck off" (it wasn't) it seems they ignored it.
It was, and they don’t come anymore. Mission accomplished.
Except that's demonstrably untrue. Recently published ONS stats for EU migration merely suggest that the numbers of people arriving from and returning to the EU were roughly in balance during the years ending mid-2020 and mid-2021 (24k net immigration to the UK in 2020, 12k net emigration from the UK in 2021.)
462,000 people, approximately equivalent to the entire population of Bristol, are estimated to have arrived from the EU over that two year period. Therefore, they're still coming.
Don't let facts get in the way of his small-minded bitter rants.
It's a bit dickless to say "Don't let facts get in the way of..." and very dickless indeed to chip in to someone else's argument like that because you haven't the balls to get into a fight directly. Yellow card.
In other news, I have emulated the Duke of York (hill-climbing-wise, not paedophilia) and admired the beacon close up. I hope Her Maj will be pleased.
What on earth are you dribbling on about? Read the thread!
I have just joined the party so I can vote for the next leader. (I also voted in the last Labour election). I will be voting for whoever clamps down on low skill migrants. Theresa May did a great job on non-EU migration but they are opening up the floodgates again to replace lost EU migration. They need to seriously up the earnings thresholds for both work and family.
Obviously I think you are wrong, dead wrong about immigration.
But it is indeed bat-shit that flower arrangers et al are now allowed in under our “new improved” immigration measures.
I’m willing to bet anyone that there is no quantifiable difference in skill between our former European influx, and the new crowd who tend to come from Nigeria, the Philippines, and the Indian sub-continent.
I think that isn't quite true, because the flower arrangers need to earn 26k a year. That's way too low, but it is still a long way above Romanian beggars and Bulgarian strawberry pickers.
I don’t think that’s the right comparison though. Agricultural workers, and beggars, were not representative migrants.
In practice, a lot of EU migrants were university graduates from places like Italy, Spain etc who couldn’t get a job in their home countries.
They then picked up casual jobs - coffee shop or care work - but worked up the ladder from there with a mixture of hard work and smarts.
But we told them to fuck off, so that’s that.
No, we didn't.
We did. So they have.
I missed the part of the Brexit legislation about telling EU nationals to fuck off. There were a few reported incidents of abuse, and at least one murder that subsequently proved not to be about Brexit, but I really don’t think we told people to fuck off.
I think you are being woefully naive here.
Brexit took place in a cantankerous spirit of narrow-mindedness which started with Farage’s posters and culminated in tabloid campaigns against the judiciary. Hitherto serious politicos made comments about “starving Ireland” or “going to war with Spain”. Jeremy Hunt likened the EU to a Soviet gulag.
Perhaps there is some polling on how EU, and indeed even non-EU migrants experienced the ensuing culture war.
It wasn't just one sided though. I seem to remember the Taoiseach making some comments about cutting the UK off from any flights.
Looking at the numbers, we have somewhere north of 7m EU citizens.
If it was "fuck off" (it wasn't) it seems they ignored it.
It was, and they don’t come anymore. Mission accomplished.
Except that's demonstrably untrue. Recently published ONS stats for EU migration merely suggest that the numbers of people arriving from and returning to the EU were roughly in balance during the years ending mid-2020 and mid-2021 (24k net immigration to the UK in 2020, 12k net emigration from the UK in 2021.)
462,000 people, approximately equivalent to the entire population of Bristol, are estimated to have arrived from the EU over that two year period. Therefore, they're still coming.
Balanced out - according to your own figures - by those leaving.
Mission accomplished.
Your assertion was that EU migrants weren't coming, because a post-Brexit wave of demented xenophobic cruelty had driven them away.
1. They are still coming. 2. Why would the aforementioned 462,000 people have chosen to immerse themselves in an environment where they were unwanted and abused? Are they all pig-ignorant of the supposed facts on the ground here, or are they all masochists?
No, that’s not my assertion.
I described the spirit of narrow-minded xenophobia that infused “long Brexit”, and explained how offensive it was to migrants (including myself). “Fuck off” was the message.
I then noted that EU migration was now essentially zero, ie “they have fucked off”.
Some choose to be pedantic with their responses, but I assume that’s because they don’t want the above on their conscience.
Pointing out that the facts show that you're spouting bullshit is not really "pedantic".
No, that was referring to some other posters. You just spew hate.
I have just joined the party so I can vote for the next leader. (I also voted in the last Labour election). I will be voting for whoever clamps down on low skill migrants. Theresa May did a great job on non-EU migration but they are opening up the floodgates again to replace lost EU migration. They need to seriously up the earnings thresholds for both work and family.
Obviously I think you are wrong, dead wrong about immigration.
But it is indeed bat-shit that flower arrangers et al are now allowed in under our “new improved” immigration measures.
I’m willing to bet anyone that there is no quantifiable difference in skill between our former European influx, and the new crowd who tend to come from Nigeria, the Philippines, and the Indian sub-continent.
I think that isn't quite true, because the flower arrangers need to earn 26k a year. That's way too low, but it is still a long way above Romanian beggars and Bulgarian strawberry pickers.
I don’t think that’s the right comparison though. Agricultural workers, and beggars, were not representative migrants.
In practice, a lot of EU migrants were university graduates from places like Italy, Spain etc who couldn’t get a job in their home countries.
They then picked up casual jobs - coffee shop or care work - but worked up the ladder from there with a mixture of hard work and smarts.
But we told them to fuck off, so that’s that.
No, we didn't.
We did. So they have.
I missed the part of the Brexit legislation about telling EU nationals to fuck off. There were a few reported incidents of abuse, and at least one murder that subsequently proved not to be about Brexit, but I really don’t think we told people to fuck off.
I think you are being woefully naive here.
Brexit took place in a cantankerous spirit of narrow-mindedness which started with Farage’s posters and culminated in tabloid campaigns against the judiciary. Hitherto serious politicos made comments about “starving Ireland” or “going to war with Spain”. Jeremy Hunt likened the EU to a Soviet gulag.
Perhaps there is some polling on how EU, and indeed even non-EU migrants experienced the ensuing culture war.
It wasn't just one sided though. I seem to remember the Taoiseach making some comments about cutting the UK off from any flights.
Looking at the numbers, we have somewhere north of 7m EU citizens.
If it was "fuck off" (it wasn't) it seems they ignored it.
It was, and they don’t come anymore. Mission accomplished.
A net 50,000 EU citizens came to the UK in 2019.
Indeed. Net migration from the EU remained positive from the referendum until the Covid restrictions of 2020 came into play. My expectation is that it will now be positive again. There are estimated to be 3.5 m EU residents in this country atm. That is about 5% of our population. The idea that they went home en masse because they were hated or unwelcome is frankly ridiculous.
Most of my EU colleagues have moved back. Not all, but most.
I don’t doubt your personal experience and it is not surprising that this is patchy but the overall figures are plain. The EU continues to be a net source of labour and skills to the UK. It may be a smaller percentage of our net immigration than it was before but it’s still net in.
The figures are plain in that EU migration is now essentially zero, whereas non-EU is now delivering the same volume we saw before from the EU.
50k a year is not "essentially zero". It is half of Cameron's immigration target from a part of the world covering just 6% of the global population.
The figure given upthread was net 12k in across 20 and 21. Undoubtedly suppressed by Covid, but that doesn’t seem to have stopped RoW.
Using the Covid numbers are laughable. It hasn't stopped the rest of the world because they relaxed controls there, so there was built up supply suddenly coming through.
You seem to be agreeing and disagreeing?
I’m surprised anyone managed to get into the country during Covid, but as you say it didn’t stop RoW migration.
Who is to say RoW migration wouldn't be 5x if COVID stopped?
I dunno. I’m as surprised as anyone.
My argument though is simply about the rhetoric and character of “long Brexit” and it’s affect on the migrant experience.
But we can see the pre-COVID post-Brexit experience is still 50,000 people a year coming. NET. That completely undermines your claims.
I have just joined the party so I can vote for the next leader. (I also voted in the last Labour election). I will be voting for whoever clamps down on low skill migrants. Theresa May did a great job on non-EU migration but they are opening up the floodgates again to replace lost EU migration. They need to seriously up the earnings thresholds for both work and family.
Obviously I think you are wrong, dead wrong about immigration.
But it is indeed bat-shit that flower arrangers et al are now allowed in under our “new improved” immigration measures.
I’m willing to bet anyone that there is no quantifiable difference in skill between our former European influx, and the new crowd who tend to come from Nigeria, the Philippines, and the Indian sub-continent.
I think that isn't quite true, because the flower arrangers need to earn 26k a year. That's way too low, but it is still a long way above Romanian beggars and Bulgarian strawberry pickers.
I don’t think that’s the right comparison though. Agricultural workers, and beggars, were not representative migrants.
In practice, a lot of EU migrants were university graduates from places like Italy, Spain etc who couldn’t get a job in their home countries.
They then picked up casual jobs - coffee shop or care work - but worked up the ladder from there with a mixture of hard work and smarts.
But we told them to fuck off, so that’s that.
No, we didn't.
We did. So they have.
I missed the part of the Brexit legislation about telling EU nationals to fuck off. There were a few reported incidents of abuse, and at least one murder that subsequently proved not to be about Brexit, but I really don’t think we told people to fuck off.
I think you are being woefully naive here.
Brexit took place in a cantankerous spirit of narrow-mindedness which started with Farage’s posters and culminated in tabloid campaigns against the judiciary. Hitherto serious politicos made comments about “starving Ireland” or “going to war with Spain”. Jeremy Hunt likened the EU to a Soviet gulag.
Perhaps there is some polling on how EU, and indeed even non-EU migrants experienced the ensuing culture war.
It wasn't just one sided though. I seem to remember the Taoiseach making some comments about cutting the UK off from any flights.
Nothing’s one sided, though.
What was - and remains - shocking was the latent nastiness that was unleashed in Britain.
Previously the general assumption was that the British were too sensible and stolidly good-mannered to descend to such levels, indeed that was much of the attraction.
Mate, you now live in America and you are attending to retire to New Zealand. It no longer has anything to do with you, so you can shut the fuck up
Not at all, I’m a British citizen with two British kids.
The worlds a lot more complicated that Brexiters realise. Well, apart from decimal currency; that’s a lot easier.
And it seems that Brexit was a lot more complicated than your simplistic reduction of it to nasty xenophobia.
Nasty xenophobia was one, though of course not the only, presiding spirit of Brexit.
It astonished me that hordes of people don’t get it, but I believe there’s a psychological term for it.
Nasty Anglophobia was widespread amongst Remainians.
Again, far from universal, probably not the majority, but it was definitely a large part of that movement.
“Mosques in Minneapolis are preparing to publicly broadcast the Islamic call to prayer over loudspeakers after the community became the first large U.S city to allow it. apne.ws/7D26SCY”
Unnecessary, though. The call to prayer made sense in a world before watches, phones etc. In a secular society/community where Islam is a minority belief, broadcasting a call to prayer ain’t on, imo.
Should we ban church bells too, for the same reason?
Are church bells rung multiple times a day, every day, throughout the year, and then electronically amplified so you can hear them in every home?
No
Them darkies are nothing but trouble aren't they with their horrible foreign habits?
Try ringing some church bells in Somalia or other similar countries.
So just because other countries are illiberal, we should be too?
What gets me is the asymmetry: I don't mind real live muezzins getting up at sparrowfart to call the faithful, but what they do is hitch up a seriously shit PA system to a timer, and stay in bed, probably miles away and with noise cancelling hedfones on. How many of the faithful do not have a smartphone with a timer/reminder app built in to it, anyway?
Muezzins are shit, as are first cousin marriages and suicide bombings, irrespective of the skin colour of the perps.
In Lebanon I am fairly sure aggressive use of the call to prayer was a factor in the civil war
The local Muslims did it really loud to annoy the Christians (and probably half their own community, but anyway). The Christians got duly annoyed - as you do if you are woken every single day at 3am by an insanely loud unintelligible screeching. Someone bombed a minaret, off it kicked
So I was told by a Christian restaurateur in Byblos. He seemed pretty candid and laid back, otherwise, so I tend to believe him
The answer is don’t allow it to start. And if you have to ban church bells as well to equalise it, so be it - tho not many bells are electronically amplified and rung before dawn
I have just joined the party so I can vote for the next leader. (I also voted in the last Labour election). I will be voting for whoever clamps down on low skill migrants. Theresa May did a great job on non-EU migration but they are opening up the floodgates again to replace lost EU migration. They need to seriously up the earnings thresholds for both work and family.
Obviously I think you are wrong, dead wrong about immigration.
But it is indeed bat-shit that flower arrangers et al are now allowed in under our “new improved” immigration measures.
I’m willing to bet anyone that there is no quantifiable difference in skill between our former European influx, and the new crowd who tend to come from Nigeria, the Philippines, and the Indian sub-continent.
I think that isn't quite true, because the flower arrangers need to earn 26k a year. That's way too low, but it is still a long way above Romanian beggars and Bulgarian strawberry pickers.
I don’t think that’s the right comparison though. Agricultural workers, and beggars, were not representative migrants.
In practice, a lot of EU migrants were university graduates from places like Italy, Spain etc who couldn’t get a job in their home countries.
They then picked up casual jobs - coffee shop or care work - but worked up the ladder from there with a mixture of hard work and smarts.
But we told them to fuck off, so that’s that.
No, we didn't.
We did. So they have.
I missed the part of the Brexit legislation about telling EU nationals to fuck off. There were a few reported incidents of abuse, and at least one murder that subsequently proved not to be about Brexit, but I really don’t think we told people to fuck off.
I think you are being woefully naive here.
Brexit took place in a cantankerous spirit of narrow-mindedness which started with Farage’s posters and culminated in tabloid campaigns against the judiciary. Hitherto serious politicos made comments about “starving Ireland” or “going to war with Spain”. Jeremy Hunt likened the EU to a Soviet gulag.
Perhaps there is some polling on how EU, and indeed even non-EU migrants experienced the ensuing culture war.
I know emotions ran high over that period but some of the things you've posted there are simply not true. Priti Patel never said anything that even remotely approximated to “starving Ireland” and the fact that people continue to repeat that she did just shows that it was a far more successful piece of fake news than anything the Leave campaign ever came up with.
The misquoting and mythology on the Remain side is astonishing. Raab said he "hadn't appreciated the full extent" of how much trade went through Dover-Calais and this is still repeated everywhere as he didn't know it was our made export route.
What Raab said was: "We are, and I hadn't quite understood the full extent of this, but if you look at the UK and if you look at how we trade in goods, we are particularly reliant on the Dover-Calais crossing." https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46142188
So either Raab did not know Dover-Calais is our main trade route, or he did know but did not know by what margin it is our main trade route. Given Raab must have known Dover-Calais is *a* trade route, which is the more natural meaning?
Personally, I’m happy to give Raab benefit of the doubt on this one. I take it to mean that he didn’t realise the degree to which EU <> UK trade was concentrated on that route.
I don’t believe he ever pretended to be a trade guru.
Well you'd not know it was jubilee tonight in Norwich. Quiet. Even the the pub opposite is merely simmering. On the plus side, no sign of knitted queens. The now closed Keir Hardie hall looks on silently, the ghosts of working men mutter about a rum old do, one taxi sped past with jacks and limited and quite turgid bunting adorns the late night corner shop. Yet if Teemu Pukki farts on any given Saturday you can hear the applause from my flat. A fine city. Fine, weird and contrary.
I have just joined the party so I can vote for the next leader. (I also voted in the last Labour election). I will be voting for whoever clamps down on low skill migrants. Theresa May did a great job on non-EU migration but they are opening up the floodgates again to replace lost EU migration. They need to seriously up the earnings thresholds for both work and family.
Obviously I think you are wrong, dead wrong about immigration.
But it is indeed bat-shit that flower arrangers et al are now allowed in under our “new improved” immigration measures.
I’m willing to bet anyone that there is no quantifiable difference in skill between our former European influx, and the new crowd who tend to come from Nigeria, the Philippines, and the Indian sub-continent.
I think that isn't quite true, because the flower arrangers need to earn 26k a year. That's way too low, but it is still a long way above Romanian beggars and Bulgarian strawberry pickers.
I don’t think that’s the right comparison though. Agricultural workers, and beggars, were not representative migrants.
In practice, a lot of EU migrants were university graduates from places like Italy, Spain etc who couldn’t get a job in their home countries.
They then picked up casual jobs - coffee shop or care work - but worked up the ladder from there with a mixture of hard work and smarts.
But we told them to fuck off, so that’s that.
No, we didn't.
We did. So they have.
I missed the part of the Brexit legislation about telling EU nationals to fuck off. There were a few reported incidents of abuse, and at least one murder that subsequently proved not to be about Brexit, but I really don’t think we told people to fuck off.
I think you are being woefully naive here.
Brexit took place in a cantankerous spirit of narrow-mindedness which started with Farage’s posters and culminated in tabloid campaigns against the judiciary. Hitherto serious politicos made comments about “starving Ireland” or “going to war with Spain”. Jeremy Hunt likened the EU to a Soviet gulag.
Perhaps there is some polling on how EU, and indeed even non-EU migrants experienced the ensuing culture war.
It wasn't just one sided though. I seem to remember the Taoiseach making some comments about cutting the UK off from any flights.
Nothing’s one sided, though.
What was - and remains - shocking was the latent nastiness that was unleashed in Britain.
Previously the general assumption was that the British were too sensible and stolidly good-mannered to descend to such levels, indeed that was much of the attraction.
Mate, you now live in America and you are attending to retire to New Zealand. It no longer has anything to do with you, so you can shut the fuck up
Not at all, I’m a British citizen with two British kids.
The worlds a lot more complicated that Brexiters realise. Well, apart from decimal currency; that’s a lot easier.
And it seems that Brexit was a lot more complicated than your simplistic reduction of it to nasty xenophobia.
Nasty xenophobia was one, though of course not the only, presiding spirit of Brexit.
It astonished me that hordes of people don’t get it, but I believe there’s a psychological term for it.
Nasty Anglophobia was widespread amongst Remainians.
Again, far from universal, probably not the majority, but it was definitely a large part of that movement.
I have just joined the party so I can vote for the next leader. (I also voted in the last Labour election). I will be voting for whoever clamps down on low skill migrants. Theresa May did a great job on non-EU migration but they are opening up the floodgates again to replace lost EU migration. They need to seriously up the earnings thresholds for both work and family.
Obviously I think you are wrong, dead wrong about immigration.
But it is indeed bat-shit that flower arrangers et al are now allowed in under our “new improved” immigration measures.
I’m willing to bet anyone that there is no quantifiable difference in skill between our former European influx, and the new crowd who tend to come from Nigeria, the Philippines, and the Indian sub-continent.
I think that isn't quite true, because the flower arrangers need to earn 26k a year. That's way too low, but it is still a long way above Romanian beggars and Bulgarian strawberry pickers.
I don’t think that’s the right comparison though. Agricultural workers, and beggars, were not representative migrants.
In practice, a lot of EU migrants were university graduates from places like Italy, Spain etc who couldn’t get a job in their home countries.
They then picked up casual jobs - coffee shop or care work - but worked up the ladder from there with a mixture of hard work and smarts.
But we told them to fuck off, so that’s that.
No, we didn't.
We did. So they have.
I missed the part of the Brexit legislation about telling EU nationals to fuck off. There were a few reported incidents of abuse, and at least one murder that subsequently proved not to be about Brexit, but I really don’t think we told people to fuck off.
I think you are being woefully naive here.
Brexit took place in a cantankerous spirit of narrow-mindedness which started with Farage’s posters and culminated in tabloid campaigns against the judiciary. Hitherto serious politicos made comments about “starving Ireland” or “going to war with Spain”. Jeremy Hunt likened the EU to a Soviet gulag.
Perhaps there is some polling on how EU, and indeed even non-EU migrants experienced the ensuing culture war.
It wasn't just one sided though. I seem to remember the Taoiseach making some comments about cutting the UK off from any flights.
Looking at the numbers, we have somewhere north of 7m EU citizens.
If it was "fuck off" (it wasn't) it seems they ignored it.
It was, and they don’t come anymore. Mission accomplished.
Except that's demonstrably untrue. Recently published ONS stats for EU migration merely suggest that the numbers of people arriving from and returning to the EU were roughly in balance during the years ending mid-2020 and mid-2021 (24k net immigration to the UK in 2020, 12k net emigration from the UK in 2021.)
462,000 people, approximately equivalent to the entire population of Bristol, are estimated to have arrived from the EU over that two year period. Therefore, they're still coming.
Don't let facts get in the way of his small-minded bitter rants.
It's a bit dickless to say "Don't let facts get in the way of..." and very dickless indeed to chip in to someone else's argument like that because you haven't the balls to get into a fight directly. Yellow card.
In other news, I have emulated the Duke of York (hill-climbing-wise, not paedophilia) and admired the beacon close up. I hope Her Maj will be pleased.
What on earth are you dribbling on about? Read the thread!
I have just joined the party so I can vote for the next leader. (I also voted in the last Labour election). I will be voting for whoever clamps down on low skill migrants. Theresa May did a great job on non-EU migration but they are opening up the floodgates again to replace lost EU migration. They need to seriously up the earnings thresholds for both work and family.
Obviously I think you are wrong, dead wrong about immigration.
But it is indeed bat-shit that flower arrangers et al are now allowed in under our “new improved” immigration measures.
I’m willing to bet anyone that there is no quantifiable difference in skill between our former European influx, and the new crowd who tend to come from Nigeria, the Philippines, and the Indian sub-continent.
I think that isn't quite true, because the flower arrangers need to earn 26k a year. That's way too low, but it is still a long way above Romanian beggars and Bulgarian strawberry pickers.
I don’t think that’s the right comparison though. Agricultural workers, and beggars, were not representative migrants.
In practice, a lot of EU migrants were university graduates from places like Italy, Spain etc who couldn’t get a job in their home countries.
They then picked up casual jobs - coffee shop or care work - but worked up the ladder from there with a mixture of hard work and smarts.
But we told them to fuck off, so that’s that.
No, we didn't.
We did. So they have.
I missed the part of the Brexit legislation about telling EU nationals to fuck off. There were a few reported incidents of abuse, and at least one murder that subsequently proved not to be about Brexit, but I really don’t think we told people to fuck off.
I think you are being woefully naive here.
Brexit took place in a cantankerous spirit of narrow-mindedness which started with Farage’s posters and culminated in tabloid campaigns against the judiciary. Hitherto serious politicos made comments about “starving Ireland” or “going to war with Spain”. Jeremy Hunt likened the EU to a Soviet gulag.
Perhaps there is some polling on how EU, and indeed even non-EU migrants experienced the ensuing culture war.
It wasn't just one sided though. I seem to remember the Taoiseach making some comments about cutting the UK off from any flights.
Looking at the numbers, we have somewhere north of 7m EU citizens.
If it was "fuck off" (it wasn't) it seems they ignored it.
It was, and they don’t come anymore. Mission accomplished.
Except that's demonstrably untrue. Recently published ONS stats for EU migration merely suggest that the numbers of people arriving from and returning to the EU were roughly in balance during the years ending mid-2020 and mid-2021 (24k net immigration to the UK in 2020, 12k net emigration from the UK in 2021.)
462,000 people, approximately equivalent to the entire population of Bristol, are estimated to have arrived from the EU over that two year period. Therefore, they're still coming.
Balanced out - according to your own figures - by those leaving.
Mission accomplished.
Your assertion was that EU migrants weren't coming, because a post-Brexit wave of demented xenophobic cruelty had driven them away.
1. They are still coming. 2. Why would the aforementioned 462,000 people have chosen to immerse themselves in an environment where they were unwanted and abused? Are they all pig-ignorant of the supposed facts on the ground here, or are they all masochists?
No, that’s not my assertion.
I described the spirit of narrow-minded xenophobia that infused “long Brexit”, and explained how offensive it was to migrants (including myself). “Fuck off” was the message.
I then noted that EU migration was now essentially zero, ie “they have fucked off”.
Some choose to be pedantic with their responses, but I assume that’s because they don’t want the above on their conscience.
Pointing out that the facts show that you're spouting bullshit is not really "pedantic".
No, that was referring to some other posters. You just spew hate.
I have just joined the party so I can vote for the next leader. (I also voted in the last Labour election). I will be voting for whoever clamps down on low skill migrants. Theresa May did a great job on non-EU migration but they are opening up the floodgates again to replace lost EU migration. They need to seriously up the earnings thresholds for both work and family.
Obviously I think you are wrong, dead wrong about immigration.
But it is indeed bat-shit that flower arrangers et al are now allowed in under our “new improved” immigration measures.
I’m willing to bet anyone that there is no quantifiable difference in skill between our former European influx, and the new crowd who tend to come from Nigeria, the Philippines, and the Indian sub-continent.
I think that isn't quite true, because the flower arrangers need to earn 26k a year. That's way too low, but it is still a long way above Romanian beggars and Bulgarian strawberry pickers.
I don’t think that’s the right comparison though. Agricultural workers, and beggars, were not representative migrants.
In practice, a lot of EU migrants were university graduates from places like Italy, Spain etc who couldn’t get a job in their home countries.
They then picked up casual jobs - coffee shop or care work - but worked up the ladder from there with a mixture of hard work and smarts.
But we told them to fuck off, so that’s that.
No, we didn't.
We did. So they have.
I missed the part of the Brexit legislation about telling EU nationals to fuck off. There were a few reported incidents of abuse, and at least one murder that subsequently proved not to be about Brexit, but I really don’t think we told people to fuck off.
I think you are being woefully naive here.
Brexit took place in a cantankerous spirit of narrow-mindedness which started with Farage’s posters and culminated in tabloid campaigns against the judiciary. Hitherto serious politicos made comments about “starving Ireland” or “going to war with Spain”. Jeremy Hunt likened the EU to a Soviet gulag.
Perhaps there is some polling on how EU, and indeed even non-EU migrants experienced the ensuing culture war.
It wasn't just one sided though. I seem to remember the Taoiseach making some comments about cutting the UK off from any flights.
Looking at the numbers, we have somewhere north of 7m EU citizens.
If it was "fuck off" (it wasn't) it seems they ignored it.
It was, and they don’t come anymore. Mission accomplished.
A net 50,000 EU citizens came to the UK in 2019.
Indeed. Net migration from the EU remained positive from the referendum until the Covid restrictions of 2020 came into play. My expectation is that it will now be positive again. There are estimated to be 3.5 m EU residents in this country atm. That is about 5% of our population. The idea that they went home en masse because they were hated or unwelcome is frankly ridiculous.
Most of my EU colleagues have moved back. Not all, but most.
I don’t doubt your personal experience and it is not surprising that this is patchy but the overall figures are plain. The EU continues to be a net source of labour and skills to the UK. It may be a smaller percentage of our net immigration than it was before but it’s still net in.
The figures are plain in that EU migration is now essentially zero, whereas non-EU is now delivering the same volume we saw before from the EU.
50k a year is not "essentially zero". It is half of Cameron's immigration target from a part of the world covering just 6% of the global population.
The figure given upthread was net 12k in across 20 and 21. Undoubtedly suppressed by Covid, but that doesn’t seem to have stopped RoW.
Using the Covid numbers are laughable. It hasn't stopped the rest of the world because they relaxed controls there, so there was built up supply suddenly coming through.
You seem to be agreeing and disagreeing?
I’m surprised anyone managed to get into the country during Covid, but as you say it didn’t stop RoW migration.
Who is to say RoW migration wouldn't be 5x if COVID stopped?
I dunno. I’m as surprised as anyone.
My argument though is simply about the rhetoric and character of “long Brexit” and it’s affect on the migrant experience.
But we can see the pre-COVID post-Brexit experience is still 50,000 people a year coming. NET. That completely undermines your claims.
“Mosques in Minneapolis are preparing to publicly broadcast the Islamic call to prayer over loudspeakers after the community became the first large U.S city to allow it. apne.ws/7D26SCY”
Unnecessary, though. The call to prayer made sense in a world before watches, phones etc. In a secular society/community where Islam is a minority belief, broadcasting a call to prayer ain’t on, imo.
Should we ban church bells too, for the same reason?
Are church bells rung multiple times a day, every day, throughout the year, and then electronically amplified so you can hear them in every home?
No
Them darkies are nothing but trouble aren't they with their horrible foreign habits?
I have just joined the party so I can vote for the next leader. (I also voted in the last Labour election). I will be voting for whoever clamps down on low skill migrants. Theresa May did a great job on non-EU migration but they are opening up the floodgates again to replace lost EU migration. They need to seriously up the earnings thresholds for both work and family.
Obviously I think you are wrong, dead wrong about immigration.
But it is indeed bat-shit that flower arrangers et al are now allowed in under our “new improved” immigration measures.
I’m willing to bet anyone that there is no quantifiable difference in skill between our former European influx, and the new crowd who tend to come from Nigeria, the Philippines, and the Indian sub-continent.
I think that isn't quite true, because the flower arrangers need to earn 26k a year. That's way too low, but it is still a long way above Romanian beggars and Bulgarian strawberry pickers.
I don’t think that’s the right comparison though. Agricultural workers, and beggars, were not representative migrants.
In practice, a lot of EU migrants were university graduates from places like Italy, Spain etc who couldn’t get a job in their home countries.
They then picked up casual jobs - coffee shop or care work - but worked up the ladder from there with a mixture of hard work and smarts.
But we told them to fuck off, so that’s that.
No, we didn't.
We did. So they have.
I missed the part of the Brexit legislation about telling EU nationals to fuck off. There were a few reported incidents of abuse, and at least one murder that subsequently proved not to be about Brexit, but I really don’t think we told people to fuck off.
I think you are being woefully naive here.
Brexit took place in a cantankerous spirit of narrow-mindedness which started with Farage’s posters and culminated in tabloid campaigns against the judiciary. Hitherto serious politicos made comments about “starving Ireland” or “going to war with Spain”. Jeremy Hunt likened the EU to a Soviet gulag.
Perhaps there is some polling on how EU, and indeed even non-EU migrants experienced the ensuing culture war.
It wasn't just one sided though. I seem to remember the Taoiseach making some comments about cutting the UK off from any flights.
Nothing’s one sided, though.
What was - and remains - shocking was the latent nastiness that was unleashed in Britain.
Previously the general assumption was that the British were too sensible and stolidly good-mannered to descend to such levels, indeed that was much of the attraction.
Mate, you now live in America and you are attending to retire to New Zealand. It no longer has anything to do with you, so you can shut the fuck up
Not at all, I’m a British citizen with two British kids.
The worlds a lot more complicated that Brexiters realise. Well, apart from decimal currency; that’s a lot easier.
And it seems that Brexit was a lot more complicated than your simplistic reduction of it to nasty xenophobia.
It’s as clear as day, but sadly you won’t get any admission on here.
Now that Brexit has revealed itself to be an economic and political shit-show, all they have left is the supposed high-minded nobility of the decision itself.
I have just joined the party so I can vote for the next leader. (I also voted in the last Labour election). I will be voting for whoever clamps down on low skill migrants. Theresa May did a great job on non-EU migration but they are opening up the floodgates again to replace lost EU migration. They need to seriously up the earnings thresholds for both work and family.
Obviously I think you are wrong, dead wrong about immigration.
But it is indeed bat-shit that flower arrangers et al are now allowed in under our “new improved” immigration measures.
I’m willing to bet anyone that there is no quantifiable difference in skill between our former European influx, and the new crowd who tend to come from Nigeria, the Philippines, and the Indian sub-continent.
I think that isn't quite true, because the flower arrangers need to earn 26k a year. That's way too low, but it is still a long way above Romanian beggars and Bulgarian strawberry pickers.
I don’t think that’s the right comparison though. Agricultural workers, and beggars, were not representative migrants.
In practice, a lot of EU migrants were university graduates from places like Italy, Spain etc who couldn’t get a job in their home countries.
They then picked up casual jobs - coffee shop or care work - but worked up the ladder from there with a mixture of hard work and smarts.
But we told them to fuck off, so that’s that.
No, we didn't.
We did. So they have.
I missed the part of the Brexit legislation about telling EU nationals to fuck off. There were a few reported incidents of abuse, and at least one murder that subsequently proved not to be about Brexit, but I really don’t think we told people to fuck off.
I think you are being woefully naive here.
Brexit took place in a cantankerous spirit of narrow-mindedness which started with Farage’s posters and culminated in tabloid campaigns against the judiciary. Hitherto serious politicos made comments about “starving Ireland” or “going to war with Spain”. Jeremy Hunt likened the EU to a Soviet gulag.
Perhaps there is some polling on how EU, and indeed even non-EU migrants experienced the ensuing culture war.
I know emotions ran high over that period but some of the things you've posted there are simply not true. Priti Patel never said anything that even remotely approximated to “starving Ireland” and the fact that people continue to repeat that she did just shows that it was a far more successful piece of fake news than anything the Leave campaign ever came up with.
The misquoting and mythology on the Remain side is astonishing. Raab said he "hadn't appreciated the full extent" of how much trade went through Dover-Calais and this is still repeated everywhere as he didn't know it was our made export route.
What Raab said was: "We are, and I hadn't quite understood the full extent of this, but if you look at the UK and if you look at how we trade in goods, we are particularly reliant on the Dover-Calais crossing." https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46142188
So either Raab did not know Dover-Calais is our main trade route, or he did know but did not know by what margin it is our main trade route. Given Raab must have known Dover-Calais is *a* trade route, which is the more natural meaning?
Personally, I’m happy to give Raab benefit of the doubt on this one. I take it to mean that he didn’t realise the degree to which EU <> UK trade was concentrated on that route.
I don’t believe he ever pretended to be a trade guru.
It's right there in the language. He didn't say he didn't know. He said he didn't know "the full extent". And of course, by saying it he did know now. So his crime was that at some point Iin the past, he didn't know the exact margin. And still even sensible Remainers bring it up. It just shows how much group think they have.
I have just joined the party so I can vote for the next leader. (I also voted in the last Labour election). I will be voting for whoever clamps down on low skill migrants. Theresa May did a great job on non-EU migration but they are opening up the floodgates again to replace lost EU migration. They need to seriously up the earnings thresholds for both work and family.
Obviously I think you are wrong, dead wrong about immigration.
But it is indeed bat-shit that flower arrangers et al are now allowed in under our “new improved” immigration measures.
I’m willing to bet anyone that there is no quantifiable difference in skill between our former European influx, and the new crowd who tend to come from Nigeria, the Philippines, and the Indian sub-continent.
I think that isn't quite true, because the flower arrangers need to earn 26k a year. That's way too low, but it is still a long way above Romanian beggars and Bulgarian strawberry pickers.
I don’t think that’s the right comparison though. Agricultural workers, and beggars, were not representative migrants.
In practice, a lot of EU migrants were university graduates from places like Italy, Spain etc who couldn’t get a job in their home countries.
They then picked up casual jobs - coffee shop or care work - but worked up the ladder from there with a mixture of hard work and smarts.
But we told them to fuck off, so that’s that.
No, we didn't.
We did. So they have.
I missed the part of the Brexit legislation about telling EU nationals to fuck off. There were a few reported incidents of abuse, and at least one murder that subsequently proved not to be about Brexit, but I really don’t think we told people to fuck off.
I think you are being woefully naive here.
Brexit took place in a cantankerous spirit of narrow-mindedness which started with Farage’s posters and culminated in tabloid campaigns against the judiciary. Hitherto serious politicos made comments about “starving Ireland” or “going to war with Spain”. Jeremy Hunt likened the EU to a Soviet gulag.
Perhaps there is some polling on how EU, and indeed even non-EU migrants experienced the ensuing culture war.
It wasn't just one sided though. I seem to remember the Taoiseach making some comments about cutting the UK off from any flights.
Nothing’s one sided, though.
What was - and remains - shocking was the latent nastiness that was unleashed in Britain.
Previously the general assumption was that the British were too sensible and stolidly good-mannered to descend to such levels, indeed that was much of the attraction.
Mate, you now live in America and you are attending to retire to New Zealand. It no longer has anything to do with you, so you can shut the fuck up
Not at all, I’m a British citizen with two British kids.
The worlds a lot more complicated that Brexiters realise. Well, apart from decimal currency; that’s a lot easier.
And it seems that Brexit was a lot more complicated than your simplistic reduction of it to nasty xenophobia.
Nasty xenophobia was one, though of course not the only, presiding spirit of Brexit.
It astonished me that hordes of people don’t get it, but I believe there’s a psychological term for it.
Nasty Anglophobia was widespread amongst Remainians.
Again, far from universal, probably not the majority, but it was definitely a large part of that movement.
No, not really. Unless you define "Anglophobia" as being somewhat against parochialism.
That is about as tight a link as the claim that controlling immigration is inherently xenophobic.
"A Washington state Guardsman received a phone call from a Ukrainian who has an issue with the Javelin. Guardsman talked him through it. 30 minutes later, Guardsman gets a call from the Ukrainian who just blew up a Russia vehicle."
If you are furious with the state of the Nation then stop voting Tory. 12 years. Simples.
In the last two elections the only serious choice you lefties gave us was: Jeremy Corbyn
Of course we voted Tory
So you reap what you sow. Stop moaning man up and take some responsibility.
Corbyn in charge of Covid response? In charge of Ukraine response? Happy to take responsibility for voting for Boris. Be happy if he is ousted now, though.
If you are furious with the state of the Nation then stop voting Tory. 12 years. Simples.
In the last two elections the only serious choice you lefties gave us was: Jeremy Corbyn
Of course we voted Tory
If Change UK had worked we might today be thankful for Chancellor Mike Gapes interventions at the behest of World Stateswoman and PM Anna Soubry. And that racist one would have her funny tinge chart out checking immigrants.
In fact, let’s go through these 12 years of “mistakenly voting Tory”
In 2010 the Labour offering was the obviously rubbish and autistic Gordon Brown, at the arse end of 13 years of a Labour government which had clearly run out of energy, had no ideas, and was bitterly divided and guilt ridden over Iraq. Facing him was the new and moderately interesting David Cameron
Sane Choice: Cameron, the Tory
In 2015 the Labour offering was the ridiculously geeky Ed Miliband, again devoid of great ideas, apart from higher taxes, facing a now experienced Cameron who had led a fairly tolerable Coalition government, running the economy quite well, even if nothing inspiring had occurred
Sane choice: Cameron, the Tory
In 2017, the Labour offering was Jeremy Corbyn facing a wildly rubbish Tory leader but frankly, she was facing Corbyn: a mad stupid Marxist lover of the IRA and Hamas
Sane choice: May, the Tory
In 2019, the Labour offering was, er, Jeremy Corbyn, the same Marxist traitor, only this time he was promising a 2nd referendum, on Brexit without enacting the first, a ;policy which would have destroyed British democracy and probably led to civil strife. His opponent was a narcissist clown but who cares in this context
Sane choice: Boris, the Tory
So in each case the sane choice has been: vote Tory
In fact, let’s go through these 12 years of “mistakenly voting Tory”
In 2010 the Labour offering was the obviously rubbish and autistic Gordon Brown, at the arse end of 13 years of a Labour government which had clearly run out of energy, had no ideas, and was bitterly divided and guilt ridden over Iraq. Facing him was the new and moderately interesting David Cameron
Sane Choice: Cameron, the Tory
In 2015 the Labour offering was the ridiculously geeky Ed Miliband, again devoid of great ideas, apart from higher taxes, facing a now experienced Cameron who had led a fairly tolerable Coalition government, running the economy quite well, even if nothing inspiring had occurred
Sane choice: Cameron, the Tory
In 2017, the Labour offering was Jeremy Corbyn facing a wildly rubbish Tory leader but frankly, she was facing Corbyn: a mad stupid Marxist lover of the IRA and Hamas
Sane choice: May, the Tory
In 2019, the Labour offering was, er, Jeremy Corbyn, the same Marxist traitor, only this time he was promising a 2nd referendum, on Brexit without enacting the first, a ;policy which would have destroyed British democracy and probably led to civil strife. His opponent was a narcissist clown but who cares in this context
Sane choice: Boris, the Tory
So in each case the sane choice has been: vote Tory
Sorry
Indeed, had the Labour Party picked David Miliband rather than Ed Miliband in 2010 they might have got a hung parliament in 2015.
Had Labour picked Andy Burnham rather than Jeremy Corbyn in 2015 they might even have narrowly won the 2017 general election against May's Tories. They have nobody to blame for their 12 years out of power but themselves!
I have just joined the party so I can vote for the next leader. (I also voted in the last Labour election). I will be voting for whoever clamps down on low skill migrants. Theresa May did a great job on non-EU migration but they are opening up the floodgates again to replace lost EU migration. They need to seriously up the earnings thresholds for both work and family.
Obviously I think you are wrong, dead wrong about immigration.
But it is indeed bat-shit that flower arrangers et al are now allowed in under our “new improved” immigration measures.
I’m willing to bet anyone that there is no quantifiable difference in skill between our former European influx, and the new crowd who tend to come from Nigeria, the Philippines, and the Indian sub-continent.
I think that isn't quite true, because the flower arrangers need to earn 26k a year. That's way too low, but it is still a long way above Romanian beggars and Bulgarian strawberry pickers.
I don’t think that’s the right comparison though. Agricultural workers, and beggars, were not representative migrants.
In practice, a lot of EU migrants were university graduates from places like Italy, Spain etc who couldn’t get a job in their home countries.
They then picked up casual jobs - coffee shop or care work - but worked up the ladder from there with a mixture of hard work and smarts.
But we told them to fuck off, so that’s that.
No, we didn't.
We did. So they have.
I missed the part of the Brexit legislation about telling EU nationals to fuck off. There were a few reported incidents of abuse, and at least one murder that subsequently proved not to be about Brexit, but I really don’t think we told people to fuck off.
I think you are being woefully naive here.
Brexit took place in a cantankerous spirit of narrow-mindedness which started with Farage’s posters and culminated in tabloid campaigns against the judiciary. Hitherto serious politicos made comments about “starving Ireland” or “going to war with Spain”. Jeremy Hunt likened the EU to a Soviet gulag.
Perhaps there is some polling on how EU, and indeed even non-EU migrants experienced the ensuing culture war.
It wasn't just one sided though. I seem to remember the Taoiseach making some comments about cutting the UK off from any flights.
Looking at the numbers, we have somewhere north of 7m EU citizens.
If it was "fuck off" (it wasn't) it seems they ignored it.
It was, and they don’t come anymore. Mission accomplished.
Except that's demonstrably untrue. Recently published ONS stats for EU migration merely suggest that the numbers of people arriving from and returning to the EU were roughly in balance during the years ending mid-2020 and mid-2021 (24k net immigration to the UK in 2020, 12k net emigration from the UK in 2021.)
462,000 people, approximately equivalent to the entire population of Bristol, are estimated to have arrived from the EU over that two year period. Therefore, they're still coming.
Don't let facts get in the way of his small-minded bitter rants.
It's a bit dickless to say "Don't let facts get in the way of..." and very dickless indeed to chip in to someone else's argument like that because you haven't the balls to get into a fight directly. Yellow card.
In other news, I have emulated the Duke of York (hill-climbing-wise, not paedophilia) and admired the beacon close up. I hope Her Maj will be pleased.
What on earth are you dribbling on about? Read the thread!
I have just joined the party so I can vote for the next leader. (I also voted in the last Labour election). I will be voting for whoever clamps down on low skill migrants. Theresa May did a great job on non-EU migration but they are opening up the floodgates again to replace lost EU migration. They need to seriously up the earnings thresholds for both work and family.
Obviously I think you are wrong, dead wrong about immigration.
But it is indeed bat-shit that flower arrangers et al are now allowed in under our “new improved” immigration measures.
I’m willing to bet anyone that there is no quantifiable difference in skill between our former European influx, and the new crowd who tend to come from Nigeria, the Philippines, and the Indian sub-continent.
I think that isn't quite true, because the flower arrangers need to earn 26k a year. That's way too low, but it is still a long way above Romanian beggars and Bulgarian strawberry pickers.
I don’t think that’s the right comparison though. Agricultural workers, and beggars, were not representative migrants.
In practice, a lot of EU migrants were university graduates from places like Italy, Spain etc who couldn’t get a job in their home countries.
They then picked up casual jobs - coffee shop or care work - but worked up the ladder from there with a mixture of hard work and smarts.
But we told them to fuck off, so that’s that.
No, we didn't.
We did. So they have.
I missed the part of the Brexit legislation about telling EU nationals to fuck off. There were a few reported incidents of abuse, and at least one murder that subsequently proved not to be about Brexit, but I really don’t think we told people to fuck off.
I think you are being woefully naive here.
Brexit took place in a cantankerous spirit of narrow-mindedness which started with Farage’s posters and culminated in tabloid campaigns against the judiciary. Hitherto serious politicos made comments about “starving Ireland” or “going to war with Spain”. Jeremy Hunt likened the EU to a Soviet gulag.
Perhaps there is some polling on how EU, and indeed even non-EU migrants experienced the ensuing culture war.
It wasn't just one sided though. I seem to remember the Taoiseach making some comments about cutting the UK off from any flights.
Looking at the numbers, we have somewhere north of 7m EU citizens.
If it was "fuck off" (it wasn't) it seems they ignored it.
It was, and they don’t come anymore. Mission accomplished.
Except that's demonstrably untrue. Recently published ONS stats for EU migration merely suggest that the numbers of people arriving from and returning to the EU were roughly in balance during the years ending mid-2020 and mid-2021 (24k net immigration to the UK in 2020, 12k net emigration from the UK in 2021.)
462,000 people, approximately equivalent to the entire population of Bristol, are estimated to have arrived from the EU over that two year period. Therefore, they're still coming.
Balanced out - according to your own figures - by those leaving.
Mission accomplished.
Your assertion was that EU migrants weren't coming, because a post-Brexit wave of demented xenophobic cruelty had driven them away.
1. They are still coming. 2. Why would the aforementioned 462,000 people have chosen to immerse themselves in an environment where they were unwanted and abused? Are they all pig-ignorant of the supposed facts on the ground here, or are they all masochists?
No, that’s not my assertion.
I described the spirit of narrow-minded xenophobia that infused “long Brexit”, and explained how offensive it was to migrants (including myself). “Fuck off” was the message.
I then noted that EU migration was now essentially zero, ie “they have fucked off”.
Some choose to be pedantic with their responses, but I assume that’s because they don’t want the above on their conscience.
Pointing out that the facts show that you're spouting bullshit is not really "pedantic".
No, that was referring to some other posters. You just spew hate.
I have just joined the party so I can vote for the next leader. (I also voted in the last Labour election). I will be voting for whoever clamps down on low skill migrants. Theresa May did a great job on non-EU migration but they are opening up the floodgates again to replace lost EU migration. They need to seriously up the earnings thresholds for both work and family.
Obviously I think you are wrong, dead wrong about immigration.
But it is indeed bat-shit that flower arrangers et al are now allowed in under our “new improved” immigration measures.
I’m willing to bet anyone that there is no quantifiable difference in skill between our former European influx, and the new crowd who tend to come from Nigeria, the Philippines, and the Indian sub-continent.
I think that isn't quite true, because the flower arrangers need to earn 26k a year. That's way too low, but it is still a long way above Romanian beggars and Bulgarian strawberry pickers.
I don’t think that’s the right comparison though. Agricultural workers, and beggars, were not representative migrants.
In practice, a lot of EU migrants were university graduates from places like Italy, Spain etc who couldn’t get a job in their home countries.
They then picked up casual jobs - coffee shop or care work - but worked up the ladder from there with a mixture of hard work and smarts.
But we told them to fuck off, so that’s that.
No, we didn't.
We did. So they have.
I missed the part of the Brexit legislation about telling EU nationals to fuck off. There were a few reported incidents of abuse, and at least one murder that subsequently proved not to be about Brexit, but I really don’t think we told people to fuck off.
I think you are being woefully naive here.
Brexit took place in a cantankerous spirit of narrow-mindedness which started with Farage’s posters and culminated in tabloid campaigns against the judiciary. Hitherto serious politicos made comments about “starving Ireland” or “going to war with Spain”. Jeremy Hunt likened the EU to a Soviet gulag.
Perhaps there is some polling on how EU, and indeed even non-EU migrants experienced the ensuing culture war.
It wasn't just one sided though. I seem to remember the Taoiseach making some comments about cutting the UK off from any flights.
Looking at the numbers, we have somewhere north of 7m EU citizens.
If it was "fuck off" (it wasn't) it seems they ignored it.
It was, and they don’t come anymore. Mission accomplished.
A net 50,000 EU citizens came to the UK in 2019.
Indeed. Net migration from the EU remained positive from the referendum until the Covid restrictions of 2020 came into play. My expectation is that it will now be positive again. There are estimated to be 3.5 m EU residents in this country atm. That is about 5% of our population. The idea that they went home en masse because they were hated or unwelcome is frankly ridiculous.
Most of my EU colleagues have moved back. Not all, but most.
I don’t doubt your personal experience and it is not surprising that this is patchy but the overall figures are plain. The EU continues to be a net source of labour and skills to the UK. It may be a smaller percentage of our net immigration than it was before but it’s still net in.
The figures are plain in that EU migration is now essentially zero, whereas non-EU is now delivering the same volume we saw before from the EU.
50k a year is not "essentially zero". It is half of Cameron's immigration target from a part of the world covering just 6% of the global population.
The figure given upthread was net 12k in across 20 and 21. Undoubtedly suppressed by Covid, but that doesn’t seem to have stopped RoW.
Using the Covid numbers are laughable. It hasn't stopped the rest of the world because they relaxed controls there, so there was built up supply suddenly coming through.
In fact, let’s go through these 12 years of “mistakenly voting Tory”
In 2010 the Labour offering was the obviously rubbish and autistic Gordon Brown, at the arse end of 13 years of a Labour government which had clearly run out of energy, had no ideas, and was bitterly divided and guilt ridden over Iraq. Facing him was the new and moderately interesting David Cameron
Sane Choice: Cameron, the Tory
In 2015 the Labour offering was the ridiculously geeky Ed Miliband, again devoid of great ideas, apart from higher taxes, facing a now experienced Cameron who had led a fairly tolerable Coalition government, running the economy quite well, even if nothing inspiring had occurred
Sane choice: Cameron, the Tory
In 2017, the Labour offering was Jeremy Corbyn facing a wildly rubbish Tory leader but frankly, she was facing Corbyn: a mad stupid Marxist lover of the IRA and Hamas
Sane choice: May, the Tory
In 2019, the Labour offering was, er, Jeremy Corbyn, the same Marxist traitor, only this time he was promising a 2nd referendum, on Brexit without enacting the first, a ;policy which would have destroyed British democracy and probably led to civil strife. His opponent was a narcissist clown but who cares in this context
Sane choice: Boris, the Tory
So in each case the sane choice has been: vote Tory
Sorry
And yet despite all those "sane choices", you are apoplectic at the state of the country.
It is one thing that amuses me about patriots (who often seem to flee these shores at the slightest opportunity). They really seem to hate this country.
In fact, let’s go through these 12 years of “mistakenly voting Tory”
In 2010 the Labour offering was the obviously rubbish and autistic Gordon Brown, at the arse end of 13 years of a Labour government which had clearly run out of energy, had no ideas, and was bitterly divided and guilt ridden over Iraq. Facing him was the new and moderately interesting David Cameron
Sane Choice: Cameron, the Tory
In 2015 the Labour offering was the ridiculously geeky Ed Miliband, again devoid of great ideas, apart from higher taxes, facing a now experienced Cameron who had led a fairly tolerable Coalition government, running the economy quite well, even if nothing inspiring had occurred
Sane choice: Cameron, the Tory
In 2017, the Labour offering was Jeremy Corbyn facing a wildly rubbish Tory leader but frankly, she was facing Corbyn: a mad stupid Marxist lover of the IRA and Hamas
Sane choice: May, the Tory
In 2019, the Labour offering was, er, Jeremy Corbyn, the same Marxist traitor, only this time he was promising a 2nd referendum, on Brexit without enacting the first, a ;policy which would have destroyed British democracy and probably led to civil strife. His opponent was a narcissist clown but who cares in this context
Sane choice: Boris, the Tory
So in each case the sane choice has been: vote Tory
Sorry
Since '45 id have been tempted by Attlee, Wilson and Sunny Jim (but would have gone for Maggie).
In fact, let’s go through these 12 years of “mistakenly voting Tory”
In 2010 the Labour offering was the obviously rubbish and autistic Gordon Brown, at the arse end of 13 years of a Labour government which had clearly run out of energy, had no ideas, and was bitterly divided and guilt ridden over Iraq. Facing him was the new and moderately interesting David Cameron
Sane Choice: Cameron, the Tory
In 2015 the Labour offering was the ridiculously geeky Ed Miliband, again devoid of great ideas, apart from higher taxes, facing a now experienced Cameron who had led a fairly tolerable Coalition government, running the economy quite well, even if nothing inspiring had occurred
Sane choice: Cameron, the Tory
In 2017, the Labour offering was Jeremy Corbyn facing a wildly rubbish Tory leader but frankly, she was facing Corbyn: a mad stupid Marxist lover of the IRA and Hamas
Sane choice: May, the Tory
In 2019, the Labour offering was, er, Jeremy Corbyn, the same Marxist traitor, only this time he was promising a 2nd referendum, on Brexit without enacting the first, a ;policy which would have destroyed British democracy and probably led to civil strife. His opponent was a narcissist clown but who cares in this context
Sane choice: Boris, the Tory
So in each case the sane choice has been: vote Tory
Sorry
And yet despite all those "sane choices", you are apoplectic at the state of the country.
It is one thing that amuses me about patriots (who often seem to flee these shores at the slightest opportunity). They really seem to hate this country.
The country. And the BBC And the National Trust And local government And the universities And the judiciary And the Scots Etc etc etc
Disappointingly few Wicker Queens ablazing in this part of Merrie Englande. I'm staying in Bray tonight and they've doubled down on bunting but seem otherwise to have avoided the midsummer madness.
In fact, let’s go through these 12 years of “mistakenly voting Tory”
In 2010 the Labour offering was the obviously rubbish and autistic Gordon Brown, at the arse end of 13 years of a Labour government which had clearly run out of energy, had no ideas, and was bitterly divided and guilt ridden over Iraq. Facing him was the new and moderately interesting David Cameron
Sane Choice: Cameron, the Tory
In 2015 the Labour offering was the ridiculously geeky Ed Miliband, again devoid of great ideas, apart from higher taxes, facing a now experienced Cameron who had led a fairly tolerable Coalition government, running the economy quite well, even if nothing inspiring had occurred
Sane choice: Cameron, the Tory
In 2017, the Labour offering was Jeremy Corbyn facing a wildly rubbish Tory leader but frankly, she was facing Corbyn: a mad stupid Marxist lover of the IRA and Hamas
Sane choice: May, the Tory
In 2019, the Labour offering was, er, Jeremy Corbyn, the same Marxist traitor, only this time he was promising a 2nd referendum, on Brexit without enacting the first, a ;policy which would have destroyed British democracy and probably led to civil strife. His opponent was a narcissist clown but who cares in this context
Sane choice: Boris, the Tory
So in each case the sane choice has been: vote Tory
Sorry
Since '45 id have been tempted by Attlee, Wilson and Sunny Jim (but would have gone for Maggie).
Wilson was an arsehole. He gets too easy a ride on here, for some reason.
Why does Leon keep saying "autistic" (a) as an insult (b) to insult people who are likely not autistic.
Because I know autism well, and I am not using it as an insult, I am using it as the right descriptive term for certain awkward personality types in politics
To my mind, of recent British politicians, both Theresa May and Gordon Brown fit the description
Now, you may believe I am wrong, and that’s fine, you may believe “only doctors should use the word” or whatever, but please don’t mischaracterise my motives
In fact, let’s go through these 12 years of “mistakenly voting Tory”
In 2010 the Labour offering was the obviously rubbish and autistic Gordon Brown, at the arse end of 13 years of a Labour government which had clearly run out of energy, had no ideas, and was bitterly divided and guilt ridden over Iraq. Facing him was the new and moderately interesting David Cameron
Sane Choice: Cameron, the Tory
In 2015 the Labour offering was the ridiculously geeky Ed Miliband, again devoid of great ideas, apart from higher taxes, facing a now experienced Cameron who had led a fairly tolerable Coalition government, running the economy quite well, even if nothing inspiring had occurred
Sane choice: Cameron, the Tory
In 2017, the Labour offering was Jeremy Corbyn facing a wildly rubbish Tory leader but frankly, she was facing Corbyn: a mad stupid Marxist lover of the IRA and Hamas
Sane choice: May, the Tory
In 2019, the Labour offering was, er, Jeremy Corbyn, the same Marxist traitor, only this time he was promising a 2nd referendum, on Brexit without enacting the first, a ;policy which would have destroyed British democracy and probably led to civil strife. His opponent was a narcissist clown but who cares in this context
Sane choice: Boris, the Tory
So in each case the sane choice has been: vote Tory
Sorry
And yet despite all those "sane choices", you are apoplectic at the state of the country.
It is one thing that amuses me about patriots (who often seem to flee these shores at the slightest opportunity). They really seem to hate this country.
The country. And the BBC And the National Trust And local government And the universities And the judiciary And the Scots Etc etc etc
Dyspepsia is treatable, though.
Says the New Zealander now living in New York
Really, your position is laughable. You need to move to an American political website
Why does Leon keep saying "autistic" (a) as an insult (b) to insult people who are likely not autistic.
Because I know autism well, and I am not using it as an insult, I am using it as the right descriptive term for certain awkward personality types in politics
To my mind, of recent British politicians, both Theresa May and Gordon Brown fit the description
Now, you may believe I am wrong, and that’s fine, you may believe “only doctors should use the word” or whatever, but please don’t mischaracterise my motives
I am on the autism spectrum and Gordon Brown definitely was. Theresa May wasn't. You can be awkward and detail focused without being ASD.
In fact, let’s go through these 12 years of “mistakenly voting Tory”
In 2010 the Labour offering was the obviously rubbish and autistic Gordon Brown, at the arse end of 13 years of a Labour government which had clearly run out of energy, had no ideas, and was bitterly divided and guilt ridden over Iraq. Facing him was the new and moderately interesting David Cameron
Sane Choice: Cameron, the Tory
In 2015 the Labour offering was the ridiculously geeky Ed Miliband, again devoid of great ideas, apart from higher taxes, facing a now experienced Cameron who had led a fairly tolerable Coalition government, running the economy quite well, even if nothing inspiring had occurred
Sane choice: Cameron, the Tory
In 2017, the Labour offering was Jeremy Corbyn facing a wildly rubbish Tory leader but frankly, she was facing Corbyn: a mad stupid Marxist lover of the IRA and Hamas
Sane choice: May, the Tory
In 2019, the Labour offering was, er, Jeremy Corbyn, the same Marxist traitor, only this time he was promising a 2nd referendum, on Brexit without enacting the first, a ;policy which would have destroyed British democracy and probably led to civil strife. His opponent was a narcissist clown but who cares in this context
Sane choice: Boris, the Tory
So in each case the sane choice has been: vote Tory
Sorry
Indeed, had the Labour Party picked David Miliband rather than Ed Miliband in 2010 they might have got a hung parliament in 2015.
Had Labour picked Andy Burnham rather than Jeremy Corbyn in 2015 they might even have narrowly won the 2017 general election against May's Tories. They have nobody to blame for their 12 years out of power but themselves!
David Miliband is the most ridiculously overrated what if. He did nothing in his ministerial career to suggest he'd be a good leader or PM yet there is this bizarre cult of the king over water around him. Its the same with Burnham. Really average health and sports minister, now flavour of the month because he made a fuss during lockdown.
In fact, let’s go through these 12 years of “mistakenly voting Tory”
In 2010 the Labour offering was the obviously rubbish and autistic Gordon Brown, at the arse end of 13 years of a Labour government which had clearly run out of energy, had no ideas, and was bitterly divided and guilt ridden over Iraq. Facing him was the new and moderately interesting David Cameron
Sane Choice: Cameron, the Tory
In 2015 the Labour offering was the ridiculously geeky Ed Miliband, again devoid of great ideas, apart from higher taxes, facing a now experienced Cameron who had led a fairly tolerable Coalition government, running the economy quite well, even if nothing inspiring had occurred
Sane choice: Cameron, the Tory
In 2017, the Labour offering was Jeremy Corbyn facing a wildly rubbish Tory leader but frankly, she was facing Corbyn: a mad stupid Marxist lover of the IRA and Hamas
Sane choice: May, the Tory
In 2019, the Labour offering was, er, Jeremy Corbyn, the same Marxist traitor, only this time he was promising a 2nd referendum, on Brexit without enacting the first, a ;policy which would have destroyed British democracy and probably led to civil strife. His opponent was a narcissist clown but who cares in this context
Sane choice: Boris, the Tory
So in each case the sane choice has been: vote Tory
Sorry
And yet despite all those "sane choices", you are apoplectic at the state of the country.
It is one thing that amuses me about patriots (who often seem to flee these shores at the slightest opportunity). They really seem to hate this country.
The country. And the BBC And the National Trust And local government And the universities And the judiciary And the Scots Etc etc etc
Dyspepsia is treatable, though.
Says the New Zealander now living in New York
Really, your position is laughable. You need to move to an American political website
I feel like I’ve spent more time in the UK than you have in recent years.
Anyway, US politics is dull, confusing, and intractable. There’s no fun in it.
Observing UK politics over the last ten years has been like the longest ever Netflix box-set. Personally I can’t wait for this season’s finale.
I have just joined the party so I can vote for the next leader. (I also voted in the last Labour election). I will be voting for whoever clamps down on low skill migrants. Theresa May did a great job on non-EU migration but they are opening up the floodgates again to replace lost EU migration. They need to seriously up the earnings thresholds for both work and family.
Obviously I think you are wrong, dead wrong about immigration.
But it is indeed bat-shit that flower arrangers et al are now allowed in under our “new improved” immigration measures.
I’m willing to bet anyone that there is no quantifiable difference in skill between our former European influx, and the new crowd who tend to come from Nigeria, the Philippines, and the Indian sub-continent.
I think that isn't quite true, because the flower arrangers need to earn 26k a year. That's way too low, but it is still a long way above Romanian beggars and Bulgarian strawberry pickers.
I don’t think that’s the right comparison though. Agricultural workers, and beggars, were not representative migrants.
In practice, a lot of EU migrants were university graduates from places like Italy, Spain etc who couldn’t get a job in their home countries.
They then picked up casual jobs - coffee shop or care work - but worked up the ladder from there with a mixture of hard work and smarts.
But we told them to fuck off, so that’s that.
No, we didn't.
We did. So they have.
I missed the part of the Brexit legislation about telling EU nationals to fuck off. There were a few reported incidents of abuse, and at least one murder that subsequently proved not to be about Brexit, but I really don’t think we told people to fuck off.
I think you are being woefully naive here.
Brexit took place in a cantankerous spirit of narrow-mindedness which started with Farage’s posters and culminated in tabloid campaigns against the judiciary. Hitherto serious politicos made comments about “starving Ireland” or “going to war with Spain”. Jeremy Hunt likened the EU to a Soviet gulag.
Perhaps there is some polling on how EU, and indeed even non-EU migrants experienced the ensuing culture war.
It wasn't just one sided though. I seem to remember the Taoiseach making some comments about cutting the UK off from any flights.
Looking at the numbers, we have somewhere north of 7m EU citizens.
If it was "fuck off" (it wasn't) it seems they ignored it.
It was, and they don’t come anymore. Mission accomplished.
Except that's demonstrably untrue. Recently published ONS stats for EU migration merely suggest that the numbers of people arriving from and returning to the EU were roughly in balance during the years ending mid-2020 and mid-2021 (24k net immigration to the UK in 2020, 12k net emigration from the UK in 2021.)
462,000 people, approximately equivalent to the entire population of Bristol, are estimated to have arrived from the EU over that two year period. Therefore, they're still coming.
Don't let facts get in the way of his small-minded bitter rants.
It's a bit dickless to say "Don't let facts get in the way of..." and very dickless indeed to chip in to someone else's argument like that because you haven't the balls to get into a fight directly. Yellow card.
In other news, I have emulated the Duke of York (hill-climbing-wise, not paedophilia) and admired the beacon close up. I hope Her Maj will be pleased.
What on earth are you dribbling on about? Read the thread!
I have just joined the party so I can vote for the next leader. (I also voted in the last Labour election). I will be voting for whoever clamps down on low skill migrants. Theresa May did a great job on non-EU migration but they are opening up the floodgates again to replace lost EU migration. They need to seriously up the earnings thresholds for both work and family.
Obviously I think you are wrong, dead wrong about immigration.
But it is indeed bat-shit that flower arrangers et al are now allowed in under our “new improved” immigration measures.
I’m willing to bet anyone that there is no quantifiable difference in skill between our former European influx, and the new crowd who tend to come from Nigeria, the Philippines, and the Indian sub-continent.
I think that isn't quite true, because the flower arrangers need to earn 26k a year. That's way too low, but it is still a long way above Romanian beggars and Bulgarian strawberry pickers.
I don’t think that’s the right comparison though. Agricultural workers, and beggars, were not representative migrants.
In practice, a lot of EU migrants were university graduates from places like Italy, Spain etc who couldn’t get a job in their home countries.
They then picked up casual jobs - coffee shop or care work - but worked up the ladder from there with a mixture of hard work and smarts.
But we told them to fuck off, so that’s that.
No, we didn't.
We did. So they have.
I missed the part of the Brexit legislation about telling EU nationals to fuck off. There were a few reported incidents of abuse, and at least one murder that subsequently proved not to be about Brexit, but I really don’t think we told people to fuck off.
I think you are being woefully naive here.
Brexit took place in a cantankerous spirit of narrow-mindedness which started with Farage’s posters and culminated in tabloid campaigns against the judiciary. Hitherto serious politicos made comments about “starving Ireland” or “going to war with Spain”. Jeremy Hunt likened the EU to a Soviet gulag.
Perhaps there is some polling on how EU, and indeed even non-EU migrants experienced the ensuing culture war.
It wasn't just one sided though. I seem to remember the Taoiseach making some comments about cutting the UK off from any flights.
Looking at the numbers, we have somewhere north of 7m EU citizens.
If it was "fuck off" (it wasn't) it seems they ignored it.
It was, and they don’t come anymore. Mission accomplished.
Except that's demonstrably untrue. Recently published ONS stats for EU migration merely suggest that the numbers of people arriving from and returning to the EU were roughly in balance during the years ending mid-2020 and mid-2021 (24k net immigration to the UK in 2020, 12k net emigration from the UK in 2021.)
462,000 people, approximately equivalent to the entire population of Bristol, are estimated to have arrived from the EU over that two year period. Therefore, they're still coming.
Balanced out - according to your own figures - by those leaving.
Mission accomplished.
Your assertion was that EU migrants weren't coming, because a post-Brexit wave of demented xenophobic cruelty had driven them away.
1. They are still coming. 2. Why would the aforementioned 462,000 people have chosen to immerse themselves in an environment where they were unwanted and abused? Are they all pig-ignorant of the supposed facts on the ground here, or are they all masochists?
No, that’s not my assertion.
I described the spirit of narrow-minded xenophobia that infused “long Brexit”, and explained how offensive it was to migrants (including myself). “Fuck off” was the message.
I then noted that EU migration was now essentially zero, ie “they have fucked off”.
Some choose to be pedantic with their responses, but I assume that’s because they don’t want the above on their conscience.
Pointing out that the facts show that you're spouting bullshit is not really "pedantic".
No, that was referring to some other posters. You just spew hate.
I have just joined the party so I can vote for the next leader. (I also voted in the last Labour election). I will be voting for whoever clamps down on low skill migrants. Theresa May did a great job on non-EU migration but they are opening up the floodgates again to replace lost EU migration. They need to seriously up the earnings thresholds for both work and family.
Obviously I think you are wrong, dead wrong about immigration.
But it is indeed bat-shit that flower arrangers et al are now allowed in under our “new improved” immigration measures.
I’m willing to bet anyone that there is no quantifiable difference in skill between our former European influx, and the new crowd who tend to come from Nigeria, the Philippines, and the Indian sub-continent.
I think that isn't quite true, because the flower arrangers need to earn 26k a year. That's way too low, but it is still a long way above Romanian beggars and Bulgarian strawberry pickers.
I don’t think that’s the right comparison though. Agricultural workers, and beggars, were not representative migrants.
In practice, a lot of EU migrants were university graduates from places like Italy, Spain etc who couldn’t get a job in their home countries.
They then picked up casual jobs - coffee shop or care work - but worked up the ladder from there with a mixture of hard work and smarts.
But we told them to fuck off, so that’s that.
No, we didn't.
We did. So they have.
I missed the part of the Brexit legislation about telling EU nationals to fuck off. There were a few reported incidents of abuse, and at least one murder that subsequently proved not to be about Brexit, but I really don’t think we told people to fuck off.
I think you are being woefully naive here.
Brexit took place in a cantankerous spirit of narrow-mindedness which started with Farage’s posters and culminated in tabloid campaigns against the judiciary. Hitherto serious politicos made comments about “starving Ireland” or “going to war with Spain”. Jeremy Hunt likened the EU to a Soviet gulag.
Perhaps there is some polling on how EU, and indeed even non-EU migrants experienced the ensuing culture war.
It wasn't just one sided though. I seem to remember the Taoiseach making some comments about cutting the UK off from any flights.
Looking at the numbers, we have somewhere north of 7m EU citizens.
If it was "fuck off" (it wasn't) it seems they ignored it.
It was, and they don’t come anymore. Mission accomplished.
A net 50,000 EU citizens came to the UK in 2019.
Indeed. Net migration from the EU remained positive from the referendum until the Covid restrictions of 2020 came into play. My expectation is that it will now be positive again. There are estimated to be 3.5 m EU residents in this country atm. That is about 5% of our population. The idea that they went home en masse because they were hated or unwelcome is frankly ridiculous.
Most of my EU colleagues have moved back. Not all, but most.
I don’t doubt your personal experience and it is not surprising that this is patchy but the overall figures are plain. The EU continues to be a net source of labour and skills to the UK. It may be a smaller percentage of our net immigration than it was before but it’s still net in.
The figures are plain in that EU migration is now essentially zero, whereas non-EU is now delivering the same volume we saw before from the EU.
50k a year is not "essentially zero". It is half of Cameron's immigration target from a part of the world covering just 6% of the global population.
The figure given upthread was net 12k in across 20 and 21. Undoubtedly suppressed by Covid, but that doesn’t seem to have stopped RoW.
Using the Covid numbers are laughable. It hasn't stopped the rest of the world because they relaxed controls there, so there was built up supply suddenly coming through.
“Mosques in Minneapolis are preparing to publicly broadcast the Islamic call to prayer over loudspeakers after the community became the first large U.S city to allow it. apne.ws/7D26SCY”
Unnecessary, though. The call to prayer made sense in a world before watches, phones etc. In a secular society/community where Islam is a minority belief, broadcasting a call to prayer ain’t on, imo.
Should we ban church bells too, for the same reason?
Are church bells rung multiple times a day, every day, throughout the year, and then electronically amplified so you can hear them in every home?
No
Them darkies are nothing but trouble aren't they with their horrible foreign habits?
Try ringing some church bells in Somalia or other similar countries.
So just because other countries are illiberal, we should be too?
What gets me is the asymmetry: I don't mind real live muezzins getting up at sparrowfart to call the faithful, but what they do is hitch up a seriously shit PA system to a timer, and stay in bed, probably miles away and with noise cancelling hedfones on. How many of the faithful do not have a smartphone with a timer/reminder app built in to it, anyway?
Muezzins are shit, as are first cousin marriages and suicide bombings, irrespective of the skin colour of the perps.
Personally, I'm of the view that the hurdle for banning something should be a high one. There is no law against being offended; I shouldn't be able to ban people from wearing Nazi uniforms, or styling themselves like Johnny Rotten, or wearing a Burqua.
Likewise, though, if I have a bar or a bank, I am quite within my rights to say "if you wish to enter here and do business, then your face must be visible."
And I think the same of the Muezzin - it should be treated like any other noise: is it a nuisance?
If it is - like it's disturbing people's sleep at daybreak - then sure, ban it. On the other hand, if it's not disturbing people any more than the overflow noise from a Taverna, then you can't.
It's a little like free speech - it applies to all, not just to those of which you approve.
I'm not much of a monarchist. In fact I'd vote for abolition tomorrow if there was a referendum, but the Jubilee has really thrown into stark relief how much the Queen is loved the world over. From Macron at the Arc d'Triumph to Obama's message on Instagram, there is no denying HMQ is something rare and special in a world leader. This jubilee feels something like a swansong, and I think we shall not see her like again.
Why does Leon keep saying "autistic" (a) as an insult (b) to insult people who are likely not autistic.
Because I know autism well, and I am not using it as an insult, I am using it as the right descriptive term for certain awkward personality types in politics
To my mind, of recent British politicians, both Theresa May and Gordon Brown fit the description
Now, you may believe I am wrong, and that’s fine, you may believe “only doctors should use the word” or whatever, but please don’t mischaracterise my motives
I am on the autism spectrum and Gordon Brown definitely was. Theresa May wasn't. You can be awkward and detail focused without being ASD.
That’s interesting, can you elaborate? I think they both stimmed a little, for example.
In fact, let’s go through these 12 years of “mistakenly voting Tory”
In 2010 the Labour offering was the obviously rubbish and autistic Gordon Brown, at the arse end of 13 years of a Labour government which had clearly run out of energy, had no ideas, and was bitterly divided and guilt ridden over Iraq. Facing him was the new and moderately interesting David Cameron
Sane Choice: Cameron, the Tory
In 2015 the Labour offering was the ridiculously geeky Ed Miliband, again devoid of great ideas, apart from higher taxes, facing a now experienced Cameron who had led a fairly tolerable Coalition government, running the economy quite well, even if nothing inspiring had occurred
Sane choice: Cameron, the Tory
In 2017, the Labour offering was Jeremy Corbyn facing a wildly rubbish Tory leader but frankly, she was facing Corbyn: a mad stupid Marxist lover of the IRA and Hamas
Sane choice: May, the Tory
In 2019, the Labour offering was, er, Jeremy Corbyn, the same Marxist traitor, only this time he was promising a 2nd referendum, on Brexit without enacting the first, a ;policy which would have destroyed British democracy and probably led to civil strife. His opponent was a narcissist clown but who cares in this context
Sane choice: Boris, the Tory
So in each case the sane choice has been: vote Tory
Sorry
Since '45 id have been tempted by Attlee, Wilson and Sunny Jim (but would have gone for Maggie).
Wilson was an arsehole. He gets too easy a ride on here, for some reason.
Soft on Wilson, soft on the causes of Wilson. The PB way,
I'm not much of a monarchist. In fact I'd vote for abolition tomorrow if there was a referendum, but the Jubilee has really thrown into stark relief how much the Queen is loved the world over. From Macron at the Arc d'Triumph to Obama's message on Instagram, there is no denying HMQ is something rare and special in a world leader. This jubilee feels something like a swansong, and I think we shall not see her like again.
She may yet defy the odds - and give us a 100th Birthday Party that puts today in the shade.....
“Mosques in Minneapolis are preparing to publicly broadcast the Islamic call to prayer over loudspeakers after the community became the first large U.S city to allow it. apne.ws/7D26SCY”
Unnecessary, though. The call to prayer made sense in a world before watches, phones etc. In a secular society/community where Islam is a minority belief, broadcasting a call to prayer ain’t on, imo.
Should we ban church bells too, for the same reason?
Are church bells rung multiple times a day, every day, throughout the year, and then electronically amplified so you can hear them in every home?
No
Them darkies are nothing but trouble aren't they with their horrible foreign habits?
Try ringing some church bells in Somalia or other similar countries.
So just because other countries are illiberal, we should be too?
What gets me is the asymmetry: I don't mind real live muezzins getting up at sparrowfart to call the faithful, but what they do is hitch up a seriously shit PA system to a timer, and stay in bed, probably miles away and with noise cancelling hedfones on. How many of the faithful do not have a smartphone with a timer/reminder app built in to it, anyway?
Muezzins are shit, as are first cousin marriages and suicide bombings, irrespective of the skin colour of the perps.
Personally, I'm of the view that the hurdle for banning something should be a high one. There is no law against being offended; I shouldn't be able to ban people from wearing Nazi uniforms, or styling themselves like Johnny Rotten, or wearing a Burqua.
Likewise, though, if I have a bar or a bank, I am quite within my rights to say "if you wish to enter here and do business, then your face must be visible."
And I think the same of the Muezzin - it should be treated like any other noise: is it a nuisance?
If it is - like it's disturbing people's sleep at daybreak - then sure, ban it. On the other hand, if it's not disturbing people any more than the overflow noise from a Taverna, then you can't.
It's a little like free speech - it applies to all, not just to those of which you approve.
It's pretty clearly a nuisance. And it happens 35 times a week.
In fact, let’s go through these 12 years of “mistakenly voting Tory”
In 2010 the Labour offering was the obviously rubbish and autistic Gordon Brown, at the arse end of 13 years of a Labour government which had clearly run out of energy, had no ideas, and was bitterly divided and guilt ridden over Iraq. Facing him was the new and moderately interesting David Cameron
Sane Choice: Cameron, the Tory
In 2015 the Labour offering was the ridiculously geeky Ed Miliband, again devoid of great ideas, apart from higher taxes, facing a now experienced Cameron who had led a fairly tolerable Coalition government, running the economy quite well, even if nothing inspiring had occurred
Sane choice: Cameron, the Tory
In 2017, the Labour offering was Jeremy Corbyn facing a wildly rubbish Tory leader but frankly, she was facing Corbyn: a mad stupid Marxist lover of the IRA and Hamas
Sane choice: May, the Tory
In 2019, the Labour offering was, er, Jeremy Corbyn, the same Marxist traitor, only this time he was promising a 2nd referendum, on Brexit without enacting the first, a ;policy which would have destroyed British democracy and probably led to civil strife. His opponent was a narcissist clown but who cares in this context
Sane choice: Boris, the Tory
So in each case the sane choice has been: vote Tory
Sorry
And yet despite all those "sane choices", you are apoplectic at the state of the country.
It is one thing that amuses me about patriots (who often seem to flee these shores at the slightest opportunity). They really seem to hate this country.
The country. And the BBC And the National Trust And local government And the universities And the judiciary And the Scots Etc etc etc
Dyspepsia is treatable, though.
Says the New Zealander now living in New York
Really, your position is laughable. You need to move to an American political website
I feel like I’ve spent more time in the UK than you have in recent years.
Anyway, US politics is dull, confusing, and intractable. There’s no fun in it.
Observing UK politics over the last ten years has been like the longest ever Netflix box-set. Personally I can’t wait for this season’s finale.
We know what will happen. The Tories will change their leader if they think they're heading for an election defeat. Labour won't change their leader regardless of circumstances. Because the Tories are more ruthless about winning elections.
In fact, let’s go through these 12 years of “mistakenly voting Tory”
In 2010 the Labour offering was the obviously rubbish and autistic Gordon Brown, at the arse end of 13 years of a Labour government which had clearly run out of energy, had no ideas, and was bitterly divided and guilt ridden over Iraq. Facing him was the new and moderately interesting David Cameron
Sane Choice: Cameron, the Tory
In 2015 the Labour offering was the ridiculously geeky Ed Miliband, again devoid of great ideas, apart from higher taxes, facing a now experienced Cameron who had led a fairly tolerable Coalition government, running the economy quite well, even if nothing inspiring had occurred
Sane choice: Cameron, the Tory
In 2017, the Labour offering was Jeremy Corbyn facing a wildly rubbish Tory leader but frankly, she was facing Corbyn: a mad stupid Marxist lover of the IRA and Hamas
Sane choice: May, the Tory
In 2019, the Labour offering was, er, Jeremy Corbyn, the same Marxist traitor, only this time he was promising a 2nd referendum, on Brexit without enacting the first, a ;policy which would have destroyed British democracy and probably led to civil strife. His opponent was a narcissist clown but who cares in this context
Sane choice: Boris, the Tory
So in each case the sane choice has been: vote Tory
Sorry
And yet despite all those "sane choices", you are apoplectic at the state of the country.
It is one thing that amuses me about patriots (who often seem to flee these shores at the slightest opportunity). They really seem to hate this country.
The country. And the BBC And the National Trust And local government And the universities And the judiciary And the Scots Etc etc etc
Dyspepsia is treatable, though.
Says the New Zealander now living in New York
Really, your position is laughable. You need to move to an American political website
I feel like I’ve spent more time in the UK than you have in recent years.
Anyway, US politics is dull, confusing, and intractable. There’s no fun in it.
Observing UK politics over the last ten years has been like the longest ever Netflix box-set. Personally I can’t wait for this season’s finale.
We know what will happen. The Tories will change their leader if they think they're heading for an election defeat. Labour won't change their leader regardless of circumstances. Because the Tories are more ruthless about winning elections.
Why does Leon keep saying "autistic" (a) as an insult (b) to insult people who are likely not autistic.
Because I know autism well, and I am not using it as an insult, I am using it as the right descriptive term for certain awkward personality types in politics
To my mind, of recent British politicians, both Theresa May and Gordon Brown fit the description
Now, you may believe I am wrong, and that’s fine, you may believe “only doctors should use the word” or whatever, but please don’t mischaracterise my motives
I am on the autism spectrum and Gordon Brown definitely was. Theresa May wasn't. You can be awkward and detail focused without being ASD.
My work is autism adjacent, and I'm always annoyed when people say things like 'We're all somewhere on the spectrum.' While it may be true a lot of people display autistic traits, the thing that is missing from these characterisations is the D in ASD, that being the disorder component. May might have been stilted and unsociable but that doesn't mean she had ASD.
Why does Leon keep saying "autistic" (a) as an insult (b) to insult people who are likely not autistic.
Because I know autism well, and I am not using it as an insult, I am using it as the right descriptive term for certain awkward personality types in politics
To my mind, of recent British politicians, both Theresa May and Gordon Brown fit the description
Now, you may believe I am wrong, and that’s fine, you may believe “only doctors should use the word” or whatever, but please don’t mischaracterise my motives
I am on the autism spectrum and Gordon Brown definitely was. Theresa May wasn't. You can be awkward and detail focused without being ASD.
T May? Really?
Her total inability to relax in social settings, her complete inability to read the public mind (dementia tax!), her slavish devotion to rule following - to a totally bizarre extent (my biggest vice is running through wheat fields!) - they all scream ASD to me
I have people very close to me who are ASD, I absolutely do not see it as an insult. It’s more like calling someone short or tall or introvert or musical or vain or shy or whatever, to me - just a statement of observed fact, only perhaps more precise than most, in terms of psychology
I am also aware that PB has a lot of people who are probably ASD, so I do not use the word lightly
I am happy to admit that I am narcissistic, a tiny bit sociopathic, and a functioning alcoholic ex drug addict. And, clearly, exhibitionistic
Why does Leon keep saying "autistic" (a) as an insult (b) to insult people who are likely not autistic.
Because I know autism well, and I am not using it as an insult, I am using it as the right descriptive term for certain awkward personality types in politics
To my mind, of recent British politicians, both Theresa May and Gordon Brown fit the description
Now, you may believe I am wrong, and that’s fine, you may believe “only doctors should use the word” or whatever, but please don’t mischaracterise my motives
I am on the autism spectrum and Gordon Brown definitely was. Theresa May wasn't. You can be awkward and detail focused without being ASD.
That’s interesting, can you elaborate? I think they both stimmed a little, for example.
Brown stimmed massively. He often couldn't get words out because his thoughts were racing ahead of his speech. He struggled to maintain eye contact even with his good eye. He froze went he couldn't process everything. He couldn't ad lib speaking, often leaning back on prepared talking points inappropriately. And the phone/printer throwing clearly suggests autism meltdowns. I don't think any of those are true for May.
Why does Leon keep saying "autistic" (a) as an insult (b) to insult people who are likely not autistic.
Because I know autism well, and I am not using it as an insult, I am using it as the right descriptive term for certain awkward personality types in politics
To my mind, of recent British politicians, both Theresa May and Gordon Brown fit the description
Now, you may believe I am wrong, and that’s fine, you may believe “only doctors should use the word” or whatever, but please don’t mischaracterise my motives
I am on the autism spectrum and Gordon Brown definitely was. Theresa May wasn't. You can be awkward and detail focused without being ASD.
That’s interesting, can you elaborate? I think they both stimmed a little, for example.
Brown stimmed massively. He often couldn't get words out because his thoughts were racing ahead of his speech. He struggled to maintain eye contact even with his good eye. He froze went he couldn't process everything. He couldn't ad lib speaking, often leaning back on prepared talking points inappropriately. And the phone/printer throwing clearly suggests autism meltdowns. I don't think any of those are true for May.
May had that odd thing in the corner of her mouth, very similar to Brown. I think she also “froze” on several occasions.
But I’m not an expert, and you obviously have authority here.
Both of course were far superior to Boris who is certainly not autistic.
I'm not much of a monarchist. In fact I'd vote for abolition tomorrow if there was a referendum, but the Jubilee has really thrown into stark relief how much the Queen is loved the world over. From Macron at the Arc d'Triumph to Obama's message on Instagram, there is no denying HMQ is something rare and special in a world leader. This jubilee feels something like a swansong, and I think we shall not see her like again.
She may yet defy the odds - and give us a 100th Birthday Party that puts today in the shade.....
She was looking awful thin on the balcony. But perhaps you're right. I always think of my old boss in Germany, ten years ago, who took me aside and in conspiratorial tones informed me that he thought the Queen would die soon... I think of all the people that I have known who, in pure actuarial terms, would be expected to outlive the Queen by a few decades at the very least and are now dead. She's resilient.
Why does Leon keep saying "autistic" (a) as an insult (b) to insult people who are likely not autistic.
Because I know autism well, and I am not using it as an insult, I am using it as the right descriptive term for certain awkward personality types in politics
To my mind, of recent British politicians, both Theresa May and Gordon Brown fit the description
Now, you may believe I am wrong, and that’s fine, you may believe “only doctors should use the word” or whatever, but please don’t mischaracterise my motives
I am on the autism spectrum and Gordon Brown definitely was. Theresa May wasn't. You can be awkward and detail focused without being ASD.
T May? Really?
Her total inability to relax in social settings, her complete inability to read the public mind (dementia tax!), her slavish devotion to rule following - to a totally bizarre extent (my biggest vice is running through wheat fields!) - they all scream ASD to me
I have people very close to me who are ASD, I absolutely do not see it as an insult. It’s more like calling someone short or tall or introvert or musical or vain or shy or whatever, to me - just a statement of observed fact, only perhaps more precise than most, in terms of psychology
I am also aware that PB has a lot of people who are probably ASD, so I do not use the word lightly
I am happy to admit that I am narcissistic, a tiny bit sociopathic, and a functioning alcoholic ex drug addict. And, clearly, exhibitionistic
I don't agree with those features at all. Her inability to relax comes from introvertedness, not ASD. (I am ASD and an extrovert, so can enjoy myself in social settings very easily.) The rule following comes from growing up in a very English, Christian moral household. The dementia tax was just an (incorrect) belief that Corbyn being a joke meant it was their chance to get unpopular things through, given no one sane would ever vote for him.
“Around the age of 5, most children develop the "theory of mind", which means that, for the first time, they come to understand that other people have feelings, motivations and needs just as real as their own.
Why does Leon keep saying "autistic" (a) as an insult (b) to insult people who are likely not autistic.
Because I know autism well, and I am not using it as an insult, I am using it as the right descriptive term for certain awkward personality types in politics
To my mind, of recent British politicians, both Theresa May and Gordon Brown fit the description
Now, you may believe I am wrong, and that’s fine, you may believe “only doctors should use the word” or whatever, but please don’t mischaracterise my motives
I am on the autism spectrum and Gordon Brown definitely was. Theresa May wasn't. You can be awkward and detail focused without being ASD.
That’s interesting, can you elaborate? I think they both stimmed a little, for example.
Brown stimmed massively. He often couldn't get words out because his thoughts were racing ahead of his speech. He struggled to maintain eye contact even with his good eye. He froze went he couldn't process everything. He couldn't ad lib speaking, often leaning back on prepared talking points inappropriately. And the phone/printer throwing clearly suggests autism meltdowns. I don't think any of those are true for May.
May had that odd thing in the corner of her mouth, very similar to Brown. I think she also “froze” on several occasions.
But I’m not an expert, and you obviously have authority here.
Both of course were far superior to Boris who is certainly not autistic.
Yes, autistic people can surely make brilliant politicians, it’s not a guaranteed handicap. The focus on detail, work, logic, can all be assets, depends on the circs
I agree that TMay had facial tics that, to me, looked quite ASD. Her grimacing as she ate those chips in St Austell, it was very much like Brown doing one of his terrible “smiling” vids, trying to fake normal human reactions
It’s also notable that no one has a problem with labelling Boris as a narcissist (which I think he is). That is also a personality “disorder”, if it is serious. Yet PB is fine with THAT term
So why is “autism” different? It is just another personality “disorder” (the word *disorder* itself is objectionable, personality TYPE is superior)
Why aren’t the right wing press moaning about current net migration .
That’s obvious ! Having demonized EU nationals and pushed for Brexit they can’t talk about migration as then it’s clear that they lied to their readers .
There seems to be lots of revisionism going on amongst some Leavers in here. The Leave side won because of the toxic debate over immigration . The promise to cut immigration was a major factor which turns out to be yet another lie .
“Mosques in Minneapolis are preparing to publicly broadcast the Islamic call to prayer over loudspeakers after the community became the first large U.S city to allow it. apne.ws/7D26SCY”
Unnecessary, though. The call to prayer made sense in a world before watches, phones etc. In a secular society/community where Islam is a minority belief, broadcasting a call to prayer ain’t on, imo.
Should we ban church bells too, for the same reason?
Are church bells rung multiple times a day, every day, throughout the year, and then electronically amplified so you can hear them in every home?
No
Them darkies are nothing but trouble aren't they with their horrible foreign habits?
Is it possible to be on an extreme end of the autistic spectrum but in the opposite direction to what are usually called autistic people?
I’ve maybe heard Bill Clinton described as this. Pathologically sociable and charming, always needs to be surrounded by people, effortlessly good at making them relax and feel loved, superb at appearing chilled and comfortable, yet there is something missing, something clinically odd about it
I'm not much of a monarchist. In fact I'd vote for abolition tomorrow if there was a referendum, but the Jubilee has really thrown into stark relief how much the Queen is loved the world over. From Macron at the Arc d'Triumph to Obama's message on Instagram, there is no denying HMQ is something rare and special in a world leader. This jubilee feels something like a swansong, and I think we shall not see her like again.
It's much easier to be loved when you don't have to get involved in the messy business of making tough choices. If you're the one choosing between cutting services and putting people's taxes up, guaranteed half the country will hate you and the other half won't thank you.
In fact, it's often hard to know what the queen thinks about anything at all. She functions in the eyes of many people as a blank slate, onto which some people paint their own ideas.
Who else could possibly be as famous as her without really having to say much of interest? I can only think of two quotes from her. One basically "we've had a bad year" which was mostly memorable because annus anus hur hur. And the other "people should think carefully about their vote" or suchlike, which felt a lot like drawing back the curtain to reveal... another curtain.
Does anyone have anything else about her off the top of your heads?
That my whole life whether it be long or short shall be devoted to your service.
That said, I agree with you, but I think that's the point of Constitutional Monarchy. They get to be above the fray of every day politics. Regardless, I think the original point still stands and it doesn't matter why she is loved only that she is. Elizabeth II gets to be a unifying figure in a way that her successor will never be.
I was simply struck, and surprised, by the love that the world appears to have for her.
Why aren’t the right wing press moaning about current net migration .
That’s obvious ! Having demonized EU nationals and pushed for Brexit they can’t talk about migration as then it’s clear that they lied to their readers .
There seems to be lots of revisionism going on amongst some Leavers in here. The Leave side won because of the toxic debate over immigration . The promise to cut immigration was a major factor which turns out to be yet another lie .
The promise was to CONTROL immigration. No more open borders. That has been delivered
“Mosques in Minneapolis are preparing to publicly broadcast the Islamic call to prayer over loudspeakers after the community became the first large U.S city to allow it. apne.ws/7D26SCY”
Unnecessary, though. The call to prayer made sense in a world before watches, phones etc. In a secular society/community where Islam is a minority belief, broadcasting a call to prayer ain’t on, imo.
Should we ban church bells too, for the same reason?
Are church bells rung multiple times a day, every day, throughout the year, and then electronically amplified so you can hear them in every home?
No
Them darkies are nothing but trouble aren't they with their horrible foreign habits?
Why does Leon keep saying "autistic" (a) as an insult (b) to insult people who are likely not autistic.
Because I know autism well, and I am not using it as an insult, I am using it as the right descriptive term for certain awkward personality types in politics
To my mind, of recent British politicians, both Theresa May and Gordon Brown fit the description
Now, you may believe I am wrong, and that’s fine, you may believe “only doctors should use the word” or whatever, but please don’t mischaracterise my motives
You constantly use "autism" as a term of disparagement. It is very tiresome and demeans the site when some half wits chip in to agree with your proclamations.
You are not the expert on ASD that you claim. If you were you would stfu making your ludicrous pronouncements that this former PM, or that former PM is on the spectrum.
I have explained before why this pisses me off so much in earnest detail, but you still post your old bollocks.
Why aren’t the right wing press moaning about current net migration .
That’s obvious ! Having demonized EU nationals and pushed for Brexit they can’t talk about migration as then it’s clear that they lied to their readers .
There seems to be lots of revisionism going on amongst some Leavers in here. The Leave side won because of the toxic debate over immigration . The promise to cut immigration was a major factor which turns out to be yet another lie .
The thing is, the numbers don’t lie. And at some stage someone - maybe Farage, maybe someone else - is going to twig that the issue can be re-exhumed to open up some new front in the culture wars.
Why aren’t the right wing press moaning about current net migration .
That’s obvious ! Having demonized EU nationals and pushed for Brexit they can’t talk about migration as then it’s clear that they lied to their readers .
There seems to be lots of revisionism going on amongst some Leavers in here. The Leave side won because of the toxic debate over immigration . The promise to cut immigration was a major factor which turns out to be yet another lie .
The thing is, the numbers don’t lie. And at some stage someone - maybe Farage, maybe someone else - is going to twig that the issue can be re-exhumed to open up some new front in the culture wars.
Farage is waiting for an opportunity. Now Brexit is over he'll have no issue going for the Tories again, I would think.
Nico is right as usual, immigration isn't being cut at all. I wonder if this is why the Red Wall is swinging back to Labour.
Why does Leon keep saying "autistic" (a) as an insult (b) to insult people who are likely not autistic.
Because I know autism well, and I am not using it as an insult, I am using it as the right descriptive term for certain awkward personality types in politics
To my mind, of recent British politicians, both Theresa May and Gordon Brown fit the description
Now, you may believe I am wrong, and that’s fine, you may believe “only doctors should use the word” or whatever, but please don’t mischaracterise my motives
I am on the autism spectrum and Gordon Brown definitely was. Theresa May wasn't. You can be awkward and detail focused without being ASD.
That’s interesting, can you elaborate? I think they both stimmed a little, for example.
Brown stimmed massively. He often couldn't get words out because his thoughts were racing ahead of his speech. He struggled to maintain eye contact even with his good eye. He froze went he couldn't process everything. He couldn't ad lib speaking, often leaning back on prepared talking points inappropriately. And the phone/printer throwing clearly suggests autism meltdowns. I don't think any of those are true for May.
May had that odd thing in the corner of her mouth, very similar to Brown. I think she also “froze” on several occasions.
But I’m not an expert, and you obviously have authority here.
Both of course were far superior to Boris who is certainly not autistic.
Yes, autistic people can surely make brilliant politicians, it’s not a guaranteed handicap. The focus on detail, work, logic, can all be assets, depends on the circs
I agree that TMay had facial tics that, to me, looked quite ASD. Her grimacing as she ate those chips in St Austell, it was very much like Brown doing one of his terrible “smiling” vids, trying to fake normal human reactions
It’s also notable that no one has a problem with labelling Boris as a narcissist (which I think he is). That is also a personality “disorder”, if it is serious. Yet PB is fine with THAT term
So why is “autism” different? It is just another personality “disorder” (the word *disorder* itself is objectionable, personality TYPE is superior)
I think Boris is a psychopath
As someone who is ACTUALLY on the psychopathic spectrum, I object
Why aren’t the right wing press moaning about current net migration .
That’s obvious ! Having demonized EU nationals and pushed for Brexit they can’t talk about migration as then it’s clear that they lied to their readers .
There seems to be lots of revisionism going on amongst some Leavers in here. The Leave side won because of the toxic debate over immigration . The promise to cut immigration was a major factor which turns out to be yet another lie .
The thing is, the numbers don’t lie. And at some stage someone - maybe Farage, maybe someone else - is going to twig that the issue can be re-exhumed to open up some new front in the culture wars.
Farage is waiting for an opportunity. Now Brexit is over he'll have no issue going for the Tories again, I would think.
Nico is right as usual, immigration isn't being cut at all. I wonder if this is why the Red Wall is swinging back to Labour.
EU immigration has fallen since Brexit, we await and see what impact Patel's Reanda policy has on channel boat crossings
In terms of the monarchy I did really like Diana and admit I did shed a tear the night she died in that car crash, I always got emotional when the tv networks kept repeating the footage of her running up and hugging William and Harry . In terms of the Queen I respect her service to the country and it will feel strange when she’s no longer with us .
I know Harry gets a lot of hate but I do wish people would have a bit more empathy . To lose your mother in that way and everything that went on afterwards would be very hard . William seems to have coped better but it can’t have been easy .
In terms of the monarchy I did really like Diana and admit I did shed a tear the night she died in that car crash, I always got emotional when the tv networks kept repeating the footage of her running up and hugging William and Harry . In terms of the Queen I respect her service to the country and it will feel strange when she’s no longer with us .
I know Harry gets a lot of hate but I do wish people would have a bit more empathy . To lose your mother in that way and everything that went on afterwards would be very hard . William seems to have coped better but it can’t have been easy .
Indeed, Diana was probably the saviour of the 21st century monarchy and however brutal the Queen was in forcing Charles to marry her she was absolutely right in terms of preserving the firm.
Do we really think the children of Charles and Camilla would have had the telegenic appeal and empathetic connection with the public William and Kate and their children have?
Why does Leon keep saying "autistic" (a) as an insult (b) to insult people who are likely not autistic.
Because I know autism well, and I am not using it as an insult, I am using it as the right descriptive term for certain awkward personality types in politics
To my mind, of recent British politicians, both Theresa May and Gordon Brown fit the description
Now, you may believe I am wrong, and that’s fine, you may believe “only doctors should use the word” or whatever, but please don’t mischaracterise my motives
I am on the autism spectrum and Gordon Brown definitely was. Theresa May wasn't. You can be awkward and detail focused without being ASD.
That’s interesting, can you elaborate? I think they both stimmed a little, for example.
Brown stimmed massively. He often couldn't get words out because his thoughts were racing ahead of his speech. He struggled to maintain eye contact even with his good eye. He froze went he couldn't process everything. He couldn't ad lib speaking, often leaning back on prepared talking points inappropriately. And the phone/printer throwing clearly suggests autism meltdowns. I don't think any of those are true for May.
May had that odd thing in the corner of her mouth, very similar to Brown. I think she also “froze” on several occasions.
But I’m not an expert, and you obviously have authority here.
Both of course were far superior to Boris who is certainly not autistic.
Yes, autistic people can surely make brilliant politicians, it’s not a guaranteed handicap. The focus on detail, work, logic, can all be assets, depends on the circs
I agree that TMay had facial tics that, to me, looked quite ASD. Her grimacing as she ate those chips in St Austell, it was very much like Brown doing one of his terrible “smiling” vids, trying to fake normal human reactions
It’s also notable that no one has a problem with labelling Boris as a narcissist (which I think he is). That is also a personality “disorder”, if it is serious. Yet PB is fine with THAT term
So why is “autism” different? It is just another personality “disorder” (the word *disorder* itself is objectionable, personality TYPE is superior)
I think Boris is a psychopath
As someone who is ACTUALLY on the psychopathic spectrum, I object
In terms of the monarchy I did really like Diana and admit I did shed a tear the night she died in that car crash, I always got emotional when the tv networks kept repeating the footage of her running up and hugging William and Harry . In terms of the Queen I respect her service to the country and it will feel strange when she’s no longer with us .
I know Harry gets a lot of hate but I do wish people would have a bit more empathy . To lose your mother in that way and everything that went on afterwards would be very hard . William seems to have coped better but it can’t have been easy .
As regards Harry, I do respect his desire to protect his wife and children. I'm not sure that he's chosen the easiest way to do so, but I'm not him.
Why does Leon keep saying "autistic" (a) as an insult (b) to insult people who are likely not autistic.
Because I know autism well, and I am not using it as an insult, I am using it as the right descriptive term for certain awkward personality types in politics
To my mind, of recent British politicians, both Theresa May and Gordon Brown fit the description
Now, you may believe I am wrong, and that’s fine, you may believe “only doctors should use the word” or whatever, but please don’t mischaracterise my motives
I am on the autism spectrum and Gordon Brown definitely was. Theresa May wasn't. You can be awkward and detail focused without being ASD.
That’s interesting, can you elaborate? I think they both stimmed a little, for example.
Brown stimmed massively. He often couldn't get words out because his thoughts were racing ahead of his speech. He struggled to maintain eye contact even with his good eye. He froze went he couldn't process everything. He couldn't ad lib speaking, often leaning back on prepared talking points inappropriately. And the phone/printer throwing clearly suggests autism meltdowns. I don't think any of those are true for May.
May had that odd thing in the corner of her mouth, very similar to Brown. I think she also “froze” on several occasions.
But I’m not an expert, and you obviously have authority here.
Both of course were far superior to Boris who is certainly not autistic.
Yes, autistic people can surely make brilliant politicians, it’s not a guaranteed handicap. The focus on detail, work, logic, can all be assets, depends on the circs
I agree that TMay had facial tics that, to me, looked quite ASD. Her grimacing as she ate those chips in St Austell, it was very much like Brown doing one of his terrible “smiling” vids, trying to fake normal human reactions
It’s also notable that no one has a problem with labelling Boris as a narcissist (which I think he is). That is also a personality “disorder”, if it is serious. Yet PB is fine with THAT term
So why is “autism” different? It is just another personality “disorder” (the word *disorder* itself is objectionable, personality TYPE is superior)
I think Boris is a psychopath
As someone who is ACTUALLY on the psychopathic spectrum, I object
Many of the 20 items on that list seem rather Big Dog.
Some of them uncannily so...
Blair was probably also a psychopath to some degree but not as much as Boris. Often psychopaths get to the top and hold their positions in business as well as politics by combining charisma and perceived charm with ruthlessness and calculation
Why aren’t the right wing press moaning about current net migration .
That’s obvious ! Having demonized EU nationals and pushed for Brexit they can’t talk about migration as then it’s clear that they lied to their readers .
There seems to be lots of revisionism going on amongst some Leavers in here. The Leave side won because of the toxic debate over immigration . The promise to cut immigration was a major factor which turns out to be yet another lie .
The promise was to CONTROL immigration. No more open borders. That has been delivered
I think Leavers who voted on immigration were expecting the numbers to be cut . And no 10 have got away with the current numbers because the right wing press daren’t go near the issue for obvious reasons .
It's a start: "OPEC has agreed to pump more crude oil over the next two months as Russian production begins to drop because of Western sanctions.
The oil exporters' cartel said it would increase supply by 648,000 barrels per day in July and August, 200,000 barrels per day more than scheduled under a supply agreement with other producers, including Russia, known as OPEC+." source: https://www.cnn.com/2022/06/02/energy/oil-prices-opec-russia/index.html
Why aren’t the right wing press moaning about current net migration .
That’s obvious ! Having demonized EU nationals and pushed for Brexit they can’t talk about migration as then it’s clear that they lied to their readers .
There seems to be lots of revisionism going on amongst some Leavers in here. The Leave side won because of the toxic debate over immigration . The promise to cut immigration was a major factor which turns out to be yet another lie .
The promise was to CONTROL immigration. No more open borders. That has been delivered
The whole point is we can now hold our leaders to account for the immigration policy, which we couldn't under the EU.
And I don't care about the quantity of immigration. I care about the quality of it. Half a million genuinely skilled professionals is great. Arranged brides and fence installers, not so much.
Why aren’t the right wing press moaning about current net migration .
That’s obvious ! Having demonized EU nationals and pushed for Brexit they can’t talk about migration as then it’s clear that they lied to their readers .
There seems to be lots of revisionism going on amongst some Leavers in here. The Leave side won because of the toxic debate over immigration . The promise to cut immigration was a major factor which turns out to be yet another lie .
The thing is, the numbers don’t lie. And at some stage someone - maybe Farage, maybe someone else - is going to twig that the issue can be re-exhumed to open up some new front in the culture wars.
Farage is waiting for an opportunity. Now Brexit is over he'll have no issue going for the Tories again, I would think.
Nico is right as usual, immigration isn't being cut at all. I wonder if this is why the Red Wall is swinging back to Labour.
EU immigration has fallen since Brexit, we await and see what impact Patel's Reanda policy has on channel boat crossings
Both of those policies are good, but the primary problem right now is low skilled legal migration through the family, student and "skilled" worker routes.
Why aren’t the right wing press moaning about current net migration .
That’s obvious ! Having demonized EU nationals and pushed for Brexit they can’t talk about migration as then it’s clear that they lied to their readers .
There seems to be lots of revisionism going on amongst some Leavers in here. The Leave side won because of the toxic debate over immigration . The promise to cut immigration was a major factor which turns out to be yet another lie .
The thing is, the numbers don’t lie. And at some stage someone - maybe Farage, maybe someone else - is going to twig that the issue can be re-exhumed to open up some new front in the culture wars.
Farage is waiting for an opportunity. Now Brexit is over he'll have no issue going for the Tories again, I would think.
Nico is right as usual, immigration isn't being cut at all. I wonder if this is why the Red Wall is swinging back to Labour.
EU immigration has fallen since Brexit, we await and see what impact Patel's Reanda policy has on channel boat crossings
Both of those policies are good, but the primary problem right now is low skilled legal migration through the family, student and "skilled" worker routes.
Students surely are skilled, or are by the time they finish their course. In the meantime, they are paying for one of the UK’s globally leading export of industries.
I think the suggestion that there is abuse to the student visa is overblown these days.
Why aren’t the right wing press moaning about current net migration .
That’s obvious ! Having demonized EU nationals and pushed for Brexit they can’t talk about migration as then it’s clear that they lied to their readers .
There seems to be lots of revisionism going on amongst some Leavers in here. The Leave side won because of the toxic debate over immigration . The promise to cut immigration was a major factor which turns out to be yet another lie .
The thing is, the numbers don’t lie. And at some stage someone - maybe Farage, maybe someone else - is going to twig that the issue can be re-exhumed to open up some new front in the culture wars.
Farage is waiting for an opportunity. Now Brexit is over he'll have no issue going for the Tories again, I would think.
Nico is right as usual, immigration isn't being cut at all. I wonder if this is why the Red Wall is swinging back to Labour.
EU immigration has fallen since Brexit, we await and see what impact Patel's Reanda policy has on channel boat crossings
Both of those policies are good, but the primary problem right now is low skilled legal migration through the family, student and "skilled" worker routes.
Students surely are skilled, or are by the time they finish their course. In the meantime, they are paying for one of the UK’s globally leading export of industries.
I think the suggestion that there is abuse to the student visa is overblown these days.
There are plenty of low end universities, but the real low skill stuff here is the non-degree level students, of which there are still a lot.
OT, good thread about the prosecution the DOJ is bringing against someone who worked for an NFT website and used inside information to buy NFTs that were about to be listed then sell them for a profit. They're charging him with wire fraud. https://twitter.com/jonwu_/status/1532383955235639298
IANAL but it feels like it might also apply to someone who use inside information to trade on a prediction market...
I'm not much of a monarchist. In fact I'd vote for abolition tomorrow if there was a referendum, but the Jubilee has really thrown into stark relief how much the Queen is loved the world over. From Macron at the Arc d'Triumph to Obama's message on Instagram, there is no denying HMQ is something rare and special in a world leader. This jubilee feels something like a swansong, and I think we shall not see her like again.
It's much easier to be loved when you don't have to get involved in the messy business of making tough choices. If you're the one choosing between cutting services and putting people's taxes up, guaranteed half the country will hate you and the other half won't thank you.
In fact, it's often hard to know what the queen thinks about anything at all. She functions in the eyes of many people as a blank slate, onto which some people paint their own ideas.
Who else could possibly be as famous as her without really having to say much of interest? I can only think of two quotes from her. One basically "we've had a bad year" which was mostly memorable because annus anus hur hur. And the other "people should think carefully about their vote" or suchlike, which felt a lot like drawing back the curtain to reveal... another curtain.
Does anyone have anything else about her off the top of your heads?
Is that not in itself remarkable though - that it's often hard to know what the queen thinks about anything at all? Not many people in the public eye achieve that. She has managed to carry out her job for 70 years without really creating any opposition to her personally. Usually, the longer a figure is around, the more people find areas of disagreement. Not her. Presumably she has opinions - but not for her the giddy thrill of retweets and likes. She is the only figure in public life without any apparent ego.
OT, good thread about the prosecution the DOJ is bringing against someone who worked for an NFT website and used inside information to buy NFTs that were about to be listed then sell them for a profit. They're charging him with wire fraud. https://twitter.com/jonwu_/status/1532383955235639298
IANAL but it feels like it might also apply to someone who use inside information to trade on a prediction market...
You mean someone who knows in advance of an embargoed poll showing the Tories would win a landslide under Nadine Dorries could back her on the next prime minister market? By analogy with the NFT case, an employee of the polling company would be guilty but a journalist with advanced sight of the poll would not.
But suppose one of the pb mods knew of a pb header to be published based on this poll, then they would be guilty.
What if we discard the poll and have someone write a header saying "I've backed Mad Nad at 200/1" then again this would seem to fall into the US DoJ outline.
Comments
I’m surprised anyone managed to get into the country during Covid, but as you say it didn’t stop RoW migration.
You produce one every few days.
It astonished me that hordes of people don’t get it, but I believe there’s a psychological term for it.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46142188
So either Raab did not know Dover-Calais is our main trade route, or he did know but did not know by what margin it is our main trade route. Given Raab must have known Dover-Calais is *a* trade route, which is the more natural meaning?
I’m as surprised as anyone.
My argument though is simply about the rhetoric and character of “long Brexit” and it’s affect on the migrant experience.
The other one is House.
Bingo !
Again, far from universal, probably not the majority, but it was definitely a large part of that movement.
The local Muslims did it really loud to annoy the Christians (and probably half their own community, but anyway). The Christians got duly annoyed - as you do if you are woken every single day at 3am by an insanely loud unintelligible screeching. Someone bombed a minaret, off it kicked
So I was told by a Christian restaurateur in Byblos. He seemed pretty candid and laid back, otherwise, so I tend to believe him
The answer is don’t allow it to start. And if you have to ban church bells as well to equalise it, so be it - tho not many bells are electronically amplified and rung before dawn
I don’t believe he ever pretended to be a trade guru.
On the plus side, no sign of knitted queens. The now closed Keir Hardie hall looks on silently, the ghosts of working men mutter about a rum old do, one taxi sped past with jacks and limited and quite turgid bunting adorns the late night corner shop.
Yet if Teemu Pukki farts on any given Saturday you can hear the applause from my flat.
A fine city. Fine, weird and contrary.
Now that Brexit has revealed itself to be an economic and political shit-show, all they have left is the supposed high-minded nobility of the decision itself.
Of course we voted Tory
I used to use
Sound, thick, weary.
Then refined my strategy & reduced it to two;
Young, arise. Covers the 5 vowels + y.
For quordle or octordle, I use the original three, then go from there.
"A Washington state Guardsman received a phone call from a Ukrainian who has an issue with the Javelin. Guardsman talked him through it. 30 minutes later, Guardsman gets a call from the Ukrainian who just blew up a Russia vehicle."
https://twitter.com/StevenBeynon/status/1532429021308506112
And that racist one would have her funny tinge chart out checking immigrants.
In 2010 the Labour offering was the obviously rubbish and autistic Gordon Brown, at the arse end of 13 years of a Labour government which had clearly run out of energy, had no ideas, and was bitterly divided and guilt ridden over Iraq. Facing him was the new and moderately interesting David Cameron
Sane Choice: Cameron, the Tory
In 2015 the Labour offering was the ridiculously geeky Ed Miliband, again devoid of great ideas, apart from higher taxes, facing a now experienced Cameron who had led a fairly tolerable Coalition government, running the economy quite well, even if nothing inspiring had occurred
Sane choice: Cameron, the Tory
In 2017, the Labour offering was Jeremy Corbyn facing a wildly rubbish Tory leader but frankly, she was facing Corbyn: a mad stupid Marxist lover of the IRA and Hamas
Sane choice: May, the Tory
In 2019, the Labour offering was, er, Jeremy Corbyn, the same Marxist traitor, only this time he was promising a 2nd referendum, on Brexit without enacting the first, a ;policy which would have destroyed British democracy and probably led to civil strife. His opponent was a narcissist clown but who cares in this context
Sane choice: Boris, the Tory
So in each case the sane choice has been: vote Tory
Sorry
Had Labour picked Andy Burnham rather than Jeremy Corbyn in 2015 they might even have narrowly won the 2017 general election against May's Tories. They have nobody to blame for their 12 years out of power but themselves!
It is one thing that amuses me about patriots (who often seem to flee these shores at the slightest opportunity). They really seem to hate this country.
And the BBC
And the National Trust
And local government
And the universities
And the judiciary
And the Scots
Etc etc etc
Dyspepsia is treatable, though.
He gets too easy a ride on here, for some reason.
To my mind, of recent British politicians, both Theresa May and Gordon Brown fit the description
Now, you may believe I am wrong, and that’s fine, you may believe “only doctors should use the word” or whatever, but please don’t mischaracterise my motives
Really, your position is laughable. You need to move to an American political website
Anyway, US politics is dull, confusing, and intractable. There’s no fun in it.
Observing UK politics over the last ten years has been like the longest ever Netflix box-set.
Personally I can’t wait for this season’s finale.
Likewise, though, if I have a bar or a bank, I am quite within my rights to say "if you wish to enter here and do business, then your face must be visible."
And I think the same of the Muezzin - it should be treated like any other noise: is it a nuisance?
If it is - like it's disturbing people's sleep at daybreak - then sure, ban it. On the other hand, if it's not disturbing people any more than the overflow noise from a Taverna, then you can't.
It's a little like free speech - it applies to all, not just to those of which you approve.
I think they both stimmed a little, for example.
Her total inability to relax in social settings, her complete inability to read the public mind (dementia tax!), her slavish devotion to rule following - to a totally bizarre extent (my biggest vice is running through wheat fields!) - they all scream ASD to me
I have people very close to me who are ASD, I absolutely do not see it as an insult. It’s more like calling someone short or tall or introvert or musical or vain or shy or whatever, to me - just a statement of observed fact, only perhaps more precise than most, in terms of psychology
I am also aware that PB has a lot of people who are probably ASD, so I do not use the word lightly
I am happy to admit that I am narcissistic, a tiny bit sociopathic, and a functioning alcoholic ex drug addict. And, clearly, exhibitionistic
But I’m not an expert, and you obviously have authority here.
Both of course were far superior to Boris who is certainly not autistic.
Robin Ashenden" (£)
https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/why-georgia-is-going-mad-for-ukraine
https://mobile.twitter.com/JonnElledge/status/1108470287484547073
“Around the age of 5, most children develop the "theory of mind", which means that, for the first time, they come to understand that other people have feelings, motivations and needs just as real as their own.
“Theresa May is 62.”
I agree that TMay had facial tics that, to me, looked quite ASD. Her grimacing as she ate those chips in St Austell, it was very much like Brown doing one of his terrible “smiling” vids, trying to fake normal human reactions
It’s also notable that no one has a problem with labelling Boris as a narcissist (which I think he is). That is also a personality “disorder”, if it is serious. Yet PB is fine with THAT term
So why is “autism” different? It is just another personality “disorder” (the word *disorder* itself is objectionable, personality TYPE is superior)
That’s obvious ! Having demonized EU nationals and pushed for Brexit they can’t talk about migration as then it’s clear that they lied to their readers .
There seems to be lots of revisionism going on amongst some Leavers in here. The Leave side won because of the toxic debate over immigration . The promise to cut immigration was a major factor which turns out to be yet another lie .
Wordle 349 3/6
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I’ve maybe heard Bill Clinton described as this. Pathologically sociable and charming, always needs to be surrounded by people, effortlessly good at making them relax and feel loved, superb at appearing chilled and comfortable, yet there is something missing, something clinically odd about it
That said, I agree with you, but I think that's the point of Constitutional Monarchy. They get to be above the fray of every day politics. Regardless, I think the original point still stands and it doesn't matter why she is loved only that she is. Elizabeth II gets to be a unifying figure in a way that her successor will never be.
I was simply struck, and surprised, by the love that the world appears to have for her.
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You are not the expert on ASD that you claim. If you were you would stfu making your ludicrous pronouncements that this former PM, or that former PM is on the spectrum.
I have explained before why this pisses me off so much in earnest detail, but you still post your old bollocks.
And at some stage someone - maybe Farage, maybe someone else - is going to twig that the issue can be re-exhumed to open up some new front in the culture wars.
Nico is right as usual, immigration isn't being cut at all. I wonder if this is why the Red Wall is swinging back to Labour.
I know Harry gets a lot of hate but I do wish people would have a bit more empathy . To lose your mother in that way and everything that went on afterwards would be very hard . William seems to have coped better but it can’t have been easy .
Do we really think the children of Charles and Camilla would have had the telegenic appeal and empathetic connection with the public William and Kate and their children have?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychopathy_Checklist
Many of the 20 items on that list seem rather Big Dog.
Some of them uncannily so...
"OPEC has agreed to pump more crude oil over the next two months as Russian production begins to drop because of Western sanctions.
The oil exporters' cartel said it would increase supply by 648,000 barrels per day in July and August, 200,000 barrels per day more than scheduled under a supply agreement with other producers, including Russia, known as OPEC+."
source: https://www.cnn.com/2022/06/02/energy/oil-prices-opec-russia/index.html
And I don't care about the quantity of immigration. I care about the quality of it. Half a million genuinely skilled professionals is great. Arranged brides and fence installers, not so much.
I think the suggestion that there is abuse to the student visa is overblown these days.
https://twitter.com/jonwu_/status/1532383955235639298
IANAL but it feels like it might also apply to someone who use inside information to trade on a prediction market...
But suppose one of the pb mods knew of a pb header to be published based on this poll, then they would be guilty.
What if we discard the poll and have someone write a header saying "I've backed Mad Nad at 200/1" then again this would seem to fall into the US DoJ outline.
Tbh as a non-lawyer I cannot quite make sense of the DoJ's case that the employer (the polling company or pb in the examples above) is the victim. They do not seem to have lost anything.
https://www.justice.gov/usao-sdny/pr/former-employee-nft-marketplace-charged-first-ever-digital-asset-insider-trading-scheme
This thread has undergone its own London Bridge