Could more Tory MP defections be in the pipeline? – politicalbetting.com

System

Could more Tory MP defections be in the pipeline? – politicalbetting.com

The style of the cartoon here will be nostalgic for longer-standing PBers – it comes from Marf, whose work often used to adorn PB columns. She’s flourishing and pursuing other careers, but I asked her to do one for my local CLP for old times’ sake. We’re using it to recruit new members from among “things are awful but what can one do?” people, who are really rather a large slice of the electorate these days.

Read the full story here

Carnyx

First!

FPT -

ydoethur said:

Carnyx said:

kjh said:

Foxy said:

dixiedean said:

HYUFD said:

Gardenwalker said:

Foxy said:

Gardenwalker said:

I’m not convinced “bobbies on the beat” *doesn’t* work, if one can use the term in the fullest sense.

To me it implies policemen who take have the time and focus to really understand a specific local community and can therefore act prophylactically, as it were.

The 1997 pledge card pledged to halve the time to sentencing for young offenders.

That sort of pledge should run again. Waiting lists for trial dates are a scandal. In practice a lot of cases are going to have to be abandoned otherwise.

The Tory record on crime is appalling.
Also on health care.
Also on standards of living.

I can’t think of a government - not since Major’s Tories indeed - with a poorer record to take to the voters on the three most salient issues.

In 1997, crime was falling thanks to Howard and unemployment was low and the economy was growing, certainly a better legacy on that than Brown Labour in 2010

There can be no doubt whatsoever that in 1997 Britain was a land of pure delight at the wisdom and foresight of its benign and wise rulers.

1997 was quite some election. I really enjoyed it.

That the economy had picked up didn't endear the government to the voters.

Same here. I was at a party and when the Northavon result came in as a LD win we all looked at each other going where the f*** is Northavon? A bit of thought and we could probably worked out it was north of the Avon.

Yes, but which Avon? There are at least three ignoring soundalikes.

Because it's from the Welsh 'Afon' meaning 'river.'

It's always amused me that so many people river to the 'River Avon' unaware that it's a tautology.

Esk/Usk/etc is also Brythonic for water (cf. Gaelic Uisge in the first element of 'whisky') ... hence the number of Esks and for that matter Axe and Exe too ...

Sandpit

2nd!

CarlottaVance

3rd rate - like this government (if only…)

ydoethur said:

Stuartinromford said:

IshmaelZ said:

RochdalePioneers said:

Morning all! Interesting to read that MPs may want to speak to Mrs Johnson - mainly because the press can't. There is a black hole which although light cannot escape it (because of the rumoured super-injunction) can at least be seen because of its impact.

Wasn't the last time Mrs Johnson was seen when Bonzo was physically dragging her down the road to vote in the local elections...?

Oh fuck there's another one is there about ......... running off with ....?

Don't see it affects us if we haven't been served with it.

Thing I've never understood about superinjunctions.

If people don't know they exist, what's the mechanism that makes them effective?

My favourite one was the Ryan Giggs one, which everyone knew about within about a week, and Joshua Rozenberg began a BBC analysis of it with these immortal words.

'Well, the law is clear. There's a court order in place which says we cannot name Ryan Giggs as the holder of this superinjunction.'

Talking of superinjunctions, I was chatting with a non-political friend in Glasgow yesterday who claimed that Sturgeon’s absence from public life is nothing to do with COVID but in fact a result of the #BalmoralHotelIncident and consequent bruising (which is almost certainly rubbish as the alleged “incident” has been doing the rounds for ages) - but it does show how some of this “bubble” rubbish can cut through.

ydoethur

Carnyx said:

First!

FPT -

ydoethur said:

Carnyx said:

kjh said:

Foxy said:

dixiedean said:

HYUFD said:

Gardenwalker said:

Foxy said:

Gardenwalker said:

I’m not convinced “bobbies on the beat” *doesn’t* work, if one can use the term in the fullest sense.

To me it implies policemen who take have the time and focus to really understand a specific local community and can therefore act prophylactically, as it were.

The 1997 pledge card pledged to halve the time to sentencing for young offenders.

That sort of pledge should run again. Waiting lists for trial dates are a scandal. In practice a lot of cases are going to have to be abandoned otherwise.

The Tory record on crime is appalling.
Also on health care.
Also on standards of living.

I can’t think of a government - not since Major’s Tories indeed - with a poorer record to take to the voters on the three most salient issues.

In 1997, crime was falling thanks to Howard and unemployment was low and the economy was growing, certainly a better legacy on that than Brown Labour in 2010

There can be no doubt whatsoever that in 1997 Britain was a land of pure delight at the wisdom and foresight of its benign and wise rulers.

1997 was quite some election. I really enjoyed it.

That the economy had picked up didn't endear the government to the voters.

Same here. I was at a party and when the Northavon result came in as a LD win we all looked at each other going where the f*** is Northavon? A bit of thought and we could probably worked out it was north of the Avon.

Yes, but which Avon? There are at least three ignoring soundalikes.

Because it's from the Welsh 'Afon' meaning 'river.'

It's always amused me that so many people river to the 'River Avon' unaware that it's a tautology.

Esk/Usk/etc is also Brythonic for water (cf. Gaelic Uisge in the first element of 'whisky') ... hence the number of Esks and for that matter Axe and Exe too ...

We could Baugh for England on this topic.

Well, we could if either of us were English!

Jonathan

Looked for the rat, couldn’t find it, then saw him in plain sight.

tlg86

The Trent flows north.

RochdalePioneers

On topic, its an interesting piece. As with last time there was the tendency for rats to start abandoning ship, the direction of travel will depend on where they are as opposed to some clear ideological change of heart.

If you are a Tory MP in one of the many blue wall seats where voters aren't mouth foamers, an early defection to the LDs would make a lot of sense. You're going to lose your seat to us anyway, why not keep it?

And in the red wall? We need to look for quieter MPs. Too many of the 2019 intake Tories are mad, bad, stupid or a combination of the three. Defecting to Labour wouldn't work as they wouldn't be accepted locally or in the party. I can only imagine the reaction of my friends on Teesside if Matt Vickers or Jacob Young suddenly had a yearning for donkey sanctuaries...

IshmaelZ

Carnyx said:

First!

FPT -

ydoethur said:

Carnyx said:

kjh said:

Foxy said:

dixiedean said:

HYUFD said:

Gardenwalker said:

Foxy said:

Gardenwalker said:

I’m not convinced “bobbies on the beat” *doesn’t* work, if one can use the term in the fullest sense.

To me it implies policemen who take have the time and focus to really understand a specific local community and can therefore act prophylactically, as it were.

The 1997 pledge card pledged to halve the time to sentencing for young offenders.

That sort of pledge should run again. Waiting lists for trial dates are a scandal. In practice a lot of cases are going to have to be abandoned otherwise.

The Tory record on crime is appalling.
Also on health care.
Also on standards of living.

I can’t think of a government - not since Major’s Tories indeed - with a poorer record to take to the voters on the three most salient issues.

In 1997, crime was falling thanks to Howard and unemployment was low and the economy was growing, certainly a better legacy on that than Brown Labour in 2010

There can be no doubt whatsoever that in 1997 Britain was a land of pure delight at the wisdom and foresight of its benign and wise rulers.

1997 was quite some election. I really enjoyed it.

That the economy had picked up didn't endear the government to the voters.

Same here. I was at a party and when the Northavon result came in as a LD win we all looked at each other going where the f*** is Northavon? A bit of thought and we could probably worked out it was north of the Avon.

Yes, but which Avon? There are at least three ignoring soundalikes.

Because it's from the Welsh 'Afon' meaning 'river.'

It's always amused me that so many people river to the 'River Avon' unaware that it's a tautology.

Esk/Usk/etc is also Brythonic for water (cf. Gaelic Uisge in the first element of 'whisky') ... hence the number of Esks and for that matter Axe and Exe too ...

Check out the etymology of Torpenhow. Clue - there's a hill there

Beibheirli_C

On topic:

I think you are mistaken Nick. Those in weaker seats seem to be fearful of rocking the boat. Johnson sycophants will never vote against him and (having been so close to Boris) would a Labour CLP accept them? That leaves the MPs in strong seats who will not throw that away for a less strong position under Labour.

If they do not defenestrate Boris then I expect all we will see are more lurches to the right, harsher policies - esp. Law and Order - and lots more weaponised nostaligia.

Carnyx

ydoethur said:

Carnyx said:

First!

FPT -

ydoethur said:

Carnyx said:

kjh said:

Foxy said:

dixiedean said:

HYUFD said:

Gardenwalker said:

Foxy said:

Gardenwalker said:

I’m not convinced “bobbies on the beat” *doesn’t* work, if one can use the term in the fullest sense.

To me it implies policemen who take have the time and focus to really understand a specific local community and can therefore act prophylactically, as it were.

The 1997 pledge card pledged to halve the time to sentencing for young offenders.

That sort of pledge should run again. Waiting lists for trial dates are a scandal. In practice a lot of cases are going to have to be abandoned otherwise.

The Tory record on crime is appalling.
Also on health care.
Also on standards of living.

I can’t think of a government - not since Major’s Tories indeed - with a poorer record to take to the voters on the three most salient issues.

In 1997, crime was falling thanks to Howard and unemployment was low and the economy was growing, certainly a better legacy on that than Brown Labour in 2010

There can be no doubt whatsoever that in 1997 Britain was a land of pure delight at the wisdom and foresight of its benign and wise rulers.

1997 was quite some election. I really enjoyed it.

That the economy had picked up didn't endear the government to the voters.

Same here. I was at a party and when the Northavon result came in as a LD win we all looked at each other going where the f*** is Northavon? A bit of thought and we could probably worked out it was north of the Avon.

Yes, but which Avon? There are at least three ignoring soundalikes.

Because it's from the Welsh 'Afon' meaning 'river.'

It's always amused me that so many people river to the 'River Avon' unaware that it's a tautology.

Esk/Usk/etc is also Brythonic for water (cf. Gaelic Uisge in the first element of 'whisky') ... hence the number of Esks and for that matter Axe and Exe too ...

We could Baugh for England on this topic.

Well, we could if either of us were English!

Especially on the Severn and Ouse.

ydoethur

Carnyx said:

ydoethur said:

Carnyx said:

First!

FPT -

ydoethur said:

Carnyx said:

kjh said:

Foxy said:

dixiedean said:

HYUFD said:

Gardenwalker said:

Foxy said:

Gardenwalker said:

I’m not convinced “bobbies on the beat” *doesn’t* work, if one can use the term in the fullest sense.

To me it implies policemen who take have the time and focus to really understand a specific local community and can therefore act prophylactically, as it were.

The 1997 pledge card pledged to halve the time to sentencing for young offenders.

That sort of pledge should run again. Waiting lists for trial dates are a scandal. In practice a lot of cases are going to have to be abandoned otherwise.

The Tory record on crime is appalling.
Also on health care.
Also on standards of living.

I can’t think of a government - not since Major’s Tories indeed - with a poorer record to take to the voters on the three most salient issues.

In 1997, crime was falling thanks to Howard and unemployment was low and the economy was growing, certainly a better legacy on that than Brown Labour in 2010

There can be no doubt whatsoever that in 1997 Britain was a land of pure delight at the wisdom and foresight of its benign and wise rulers.

1997 was quite some election. I really enjoyed it.

That the economy had picked up didn't endear the government to the voters.

Same here. I was at a party and when the Northavon result came in as a LD win we all looked at each other going where the f*** is Northavon? A bit of thought and we could probably worked out it was north of the Avon.

Yes, but which Avon? There are at least three ignoring soundalikes.

Because it's from the Welsh 'Afon' meaning 'river.'

It's always amused me that so many people river to the 'River Avon' unaware that it's a tautology.

Esk/Usk/etc is also Brythonic for water (cf. Gaelic Uisge in the first element of 'whisky') ... hence the number of Esks and for that matter Axe and Exe too ...

We could Baugh for England on this topic.

Well, we could if either of us were English!

Especially on the Severn and Ouse.

Everyone else gets a Leadon feeling...

rottenborough

Beibheirli_C said:

On topic:

I think you are mistaken Nick. Those in weaker seats seem to be fearful of rocking the boat. Johnson sycophants will never vote against him and (having been so close to Boris) would a Labour CLP accept them? That leaves the MPs in strong seats who will not throw that away for a less strong position under Labour.

If they do not defenestrate Boris then I expect all we will see are more lurches to the right, harsher policies - esp. Law and Order - and lots more weaponised nostaligia.

The latter sounds like a classic core vote operation. In which case, we can say hello to PM Starmer.

RochdalePioneers

rottenborough said:

Beibheirli_C said:

On topic:

I think you are mistaken Nick. Those in weaker seats seem to be fearful of rocking the boat. Johnson sycophants will never vote against him and (having been so close to Boris) would a Labour CLP accept them? That leaves the MPs in strong seats who will not throw that away for a less strong position under Labour.

If they do not defenestrate Boris then I expect all we will see are more lurches to the right, harsher policies - esp. Law and Order - and lots more weaponised nostaligia.

The latter sounds like a classic core vote operation. In which case, we can say hello to PM Starmer.

Its the exact same lack of political nous that goes with zealots of every persuasion. They are Right. They speak the Truth. So if you disagree with them you are wrong and a liar and obviously working for the other side.

Which is how we ended up with a Corbyn project which disappeared up its own paranoid arse and a Johnson government now thinking that "THEY BANNED CROWN LOGOS ON PINT GLASSES" is a vote winner.

Big_G_NorthWales

Good morning

Nick makes a good argument and I could see some defections by the conference season if the conservative party has not come to its senses and removed Boris

I would like to take this opportunity of saying that I am not a monarchist, notwithstanding my respect for the queen, and will not be attending any street parties or even watching much of the coverage

However, I do worry we are turning into a society that is joyless and where some want to denigrate those who are looking forward to the celebrations, which frankly is just acting as killjoys for something that shouldn't really bother anyone

We all need to be more tolerant and understanding to each other

IshmaelZ

turbotubbs said:

ydoethur said:

boulay said:

IshmaelZ said:

OK apart from the Nile, Mississippi, Volga, Lena and Ob, what NS oriented rivers have the Romans ever given us?

The Itchen?

That flows south. We're looking for ones that flow north.

This whole thing is turning into another staycationgate. The original question as posed was wrong. and even when (I think) correctly posed its wrong too, as the claim is the NIle runs only S to N. but there is a big southerly loop along the course.

This is too important to let go because new thread. The modified claim = only the NIle runs S to N NOT the NIle runs only S to N. Different things.

The modified, modified claim is I think that of the *great* rivers *of Africa* only the Nile runs *overall, by and large* SN which is getting a bit too specific to be interesting. It's like saying Hey I have 3 children and only one of them has a Christian name beginning with a vowel, what are the odds?

turbotubbs

RochdalePioneers said:

rottenborough said:

Beibheirli_C said:

On topic:

I think you are mistaken Nick. Those in weaker seats seem to be fearful of rocking the boat. Johnson sycophants will never vote against him and (having been so close to Boris) would a Labour CLP accept them? That leaves the MPs in strong seats who will not throw that away for a less strong position under Labour.

If they do not defenestrate Boris then I expect all we will see are more lurches to the right, harsher policies - esp. Law and Order - and lots more weaponised nostaligia.

The latter sounds like a classic core vote operation. In which case, we can say hello to PM Starmer.

Its the exact same lack of political nous that goes with zealots of every persuasion. They are Right. They speak the Truth. So if you disagree with them you are wrong and a liar and obviously working for the other side.

Which is how we ended up with a Corbyn project which disappeared up its own paranoid arse and a Johnson government now thinking that "THEY BANNED CROWN LOGOS ON PINT GLASSES" is a vote winner.

The imperial measures nonsense is such nonsense, not least as I distinctly remember ordering pints of beer and cider on saturday after cricket and receiving them. And they were the full 568 ml.
No issues at all.

Really, if this is the best the government has, its time to go and have a hard think about what being in power is for.

Stocky

Header: when you complement the government in the area of animal welfare what exactly are you referring to?

ydoethur

Stocky said:

Header: when you complement the government in the area of animal welfare what exactly are you referring to?

Johnson's record on animal welfare is literally dogging him at the moment.

IshmaelZ

RochdalePioneers said:

rottenborough said:

Beibheirli_C said:

On topic:

I think you are mistaken Nick. Those in weaker seats seem to be fearful of rocking the boat. Johnson sycophants will never vote against him and (having been so close to Boris) would a Labour CLP accept them? That leaves the MPs in strong seats who will not throw that away for a less strong position under Labour.

If they do not defenestrate Boris then I expect all we will see are more lurches to the right, harsher policies - esp. Law and Order - and lots more weaponised nostaligia.

The latter sounds like a classic core vote operation. In which case, we can say hello to PM Starmer.

Its the exact same lack of political nous that goes with zealots of every persuasion. They are Right. They speak the Truth. So if you disagree with them you are wrong and a liar and obviously working for the other side.

Which is how we ended up with a Corbyn project which disappeared up its own paranoid arse and a Johnson government now thinking that "THEY BANNED CROWN LOGOS ON PINT GLASSES" is a vote winner.

If the claim in PT is correct that they explored the possibility of switching the OS back to miles (linked tweet been deleted) that shows how this fuckwittery can spill over into real world effects. How is the army meant to do joint exercises abroad if its been brought up on rod and perch maps of Dartmoor?

HYUFD

How many Labour MPs defected before 2010 to the Conservatives despite the fact 96 Labour seats would then be lost at that general election? 0. Even before 1997 only 1 Tory MP, Alan Howarth, defected to Labour.

It is very rare to get defections from Tory to Labour or vice versa having spent your whole political career with the other party as your main political enemy. You might get a handful to the LDs but even then those would be more likely to be the most EUphile of Tory MPs and before the 2019 general election Boris ensured all Tory candidates were committed to Brexit anyway

Big_G_NorthWales

I see a French Minister is blaming Liverpool fans for arriving without tickets

I would just say that even if some did, it was upto the organisation of the event to put in arrangements to check tickets further out from the perimeter of the ground and from what I have seen and read the French Minister should hang his head in shame as families and their children were tear gassed by his police

RochdalePioneers

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Good morning

Nick makes a good argument and I could see some defections by the conference season if the conservative party has not come to its senses and removed Boris

I would like to take this opportunity of saying that I am not a monarchist, notwithstanding my respect for the queen, and will not be attending any street parties or even watching much of the coverage

However, I do worry we are turning into a society that is joyless and where some want to denigrate those who are looking forward to the celebrations, which frankly is just acting as killjoys for something that shouldn't really bother anyone

We all need to be more tolerant and understanding to each other

Good morning! On your latter points I feel there is a basic division which causes the problems. There are two groups:
Those who will celebrate / not celebrate for their own reasons
Those who will or won't celebrate for political reasons because it winds up the other lot

Frankly I find the spectacle of the monarchy to be amazing and preposterous in equal measure. The Ste Opening of Parliament was both the kind of pageant that we are experts at and an absurd spectacle in equal measure. And the Jubilee isn't much better.

The problem is that there are people who want to drape themselves in the Union flag to stick it up socialists / nationalists, and those repulsed by it all precisely because of the kind of people who are draped in the flag.

The solution is to steal back flags and symbols from the idiots. Blair got this right with the whole "Cool Britannia" thing (until we all got bored) and the Saltire up here is a national pride thing not a nat identity thing. So it can be done.

IshmaelZ

Stocky said:

Header: when you complement the government in the area of animal welfare what exactly are you referring to?

Plus, you cannot do government, or critique of government, on single issues like this. Say what you like about Jeremy, he is with me over Palestine. I really want to invade Iraq but never mind that, what do you think of my Disabled Hedgehog (Enabling) Bill. And in commending the BJ government on this, sorry, but there is no way round this: you are adopting a position in the great Doggies v Darkies debate.

ydoethur

HYUFD said:

How many Labour MPs defected before 2010 to the Conservatives despite the fact 96 Labour seats would then be lost at that general election? 0. Even before 1997 only 1 Tory MP, Alan Howarth, defected to Labour.

It is very rare to get defections from Tory to Labour or vice versa having spent your whole political career with the other party as your main political enemy. You might get a handful to the LDs but even then those would be more likely to be the most EUphile of Tory MPs and before the 2019 general election Boris ensured all Tory candidates were committed to Brexit anyway

Although two defected to the Liberal Democrats.

Interesting that more MPs defected to Labour under Hague than under Major.

RochdalePioneers

IshmaelZ said:

RochdalePioneers said:

rottenborough said:

Beibheirli_C said:

On topic:

I think you are mistaken Nick. Those in weaker seats seem to be fearful of rocking the boat. Johnson sycophants will never vote against him and (having been so close to Boris) would a Labour CLP accept them? That leaves the MPs in strong seats who will not throw that away for a less strong position under Labour.

If they do not defenestrate Boris then I expect all we will see are more lurches to the right, harsher policies - esp. Law and Order - and lots more weaponised nostaligia.

The latter sounds like a classic core vote operation. In which case, we can say hello to PM Starmer.

Its the exact same lack of political nous that goes with zealots of every persuasion. They are Right. They speak the Truth. So if you disagree with them you are wrong and a liar and obviously working for the other side.

Which is how we ended up with a Corbyn project which disappeared up its own paranoid arse and a Johnson government now thinking that "THEY BANNED CROWN LOGOS ON PINT GLASSES" is a vote winner.

If the claim in PT is correct that they explored the possibility of switching the OS back to miles (linked tweet been deleted) that shows how this fuckwittery can spill over into real world effects. How is the army meant to do joint exercises abroad if its been brought up on rod and perch maps of Dartmoor?

Remember that the best way to kill such stupidity is to say "excellent idea. let us go and look into this for you" and then bury it. They don't actually want to convert to imperial / level up / open grammar schools / bonfire red tape - they just want some headlines. So all the experts have to do is preserve it in aspic long enough for Bonzo and the rest of the clown troop to forget all about it.

Pulpstar

More rivers flowing generally northward - Weser, Elbe, Daugeva...

Big_G_NorthWales

HYUFD said:

How many Labour MPs defected before 2010 to the Conservatives despite the fact 96 Labour seats would then be lost at that general election? 0. Even before 1997 only 1 Tory MP, Alan Howarth, defected to Labour.

It is very rare to get defections from Tory to Labour or vice versa having spent your whole political career with the other party as your main political enemy. You might get a handful to the LDs but even then those would be more likely to be the most EUphile of Tory MPs and before the 2019 general election Boris ensured all Tory candidates were committed to Brexit anyway

'Your main political enemy'

Is this why you threaten Scotland with tanks ?

Opponent is the correct term

Beibheirli_C

rottenborough said:

Beibheirli_C said:

On topic:

I think you are mistaken Nick. Those in weaker seats seem to be fearful of rocking the boat. Johnson sycophants will never vote against him and (having been so close to Boris) would a Labour CLP accept them? That leaves the MPs in strong seats who will not throw that away for a less strong position under Labour.

If they do not defenestrate Boris then I expect all we will see are more lurches to the right, harsher policies - esp. Law and Order - and lots more weaponised nostaligia.

The latter sounds like a classic core vote operation. In which case, we can say hello to PM Starmer.

I expect you are right, but in the past, when parties wind up in electoral trouble, appealing to the core vote is exactly what they do. They only start "listening" a few years after they have been kicked into opposition and have fought the inevitable internal civil war over "Why we lost the election"

OnlyLivingBoy

RochdalePioneers said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Good morning

Nick makes a good argument and I could see some defections by the conference season if the conservative party has not come to its senses and removed Boris

I would like to take this opportunity of saying that I am not a monarchist, notwithstanding my respect for the queen, and will not be attending any street parties or even watching much of the coverage

However, I do worry we are turning into a society that is joyless and where some want to denigrate those who are looking forward to the celebrations, which frankly is just acting as killjoys for something that shouldn't really bother anyone

We all need to be more tolerant and understanding to each other

Good morning! On your latter points I feel there is a basic division which causes the problems. There are two groups:
Those who will celebrate / not celebrate for their own reasons
Those who will or won't celebrate for political reasons because it winds up the other lot

Frankly I find the spectacle of the monarchy to be amazing and preposterous in equal measure. The Ste Opening of Parliament was both the kind of pageant that we are experts at and an absurd spectacle in equal measure. And the Jubilee isn't much better.

The problem is that there are people who want to drape themselves in the Union flag to stick it up socialists / nationalists, and those repulsed by it all precisely because of the kind of people who are draped in the flag.

The solution is to steal back flags and symbols from the idiots. Blair got this right with the whole "Cool Britannia" thing (until we all got bored) and the Saltire up here is a national pride thing not a nat identity thing. So it can be done.

I will be attending a couple of local street parties over the Jubilee weekend, including one on our street. I'm not sure that in the real world they are terribly divisive, where we live there are probably not many ardent royalists but attendees will have a range of views from those like me who support a constitutional monarchy to convinced republicans. We will all have a good time because we live in a nice friendly neighbourhood full of lovely people and the events are more about celebrating our community and having a good time than anything royalist or patriotic.

Stocky

Nick may be right about defections on the way. Mass chicken-run as per Wakeford. I heartily disapprove, no matter of the direction.

noneoftheabove

RochdalePioneers said:

IshmaelZ said:

RochdalePioneers said:

rottenborough said:

Beibheirli_C said:

On topic:

I think you are mistaken Nick. Those in weaker seats seem to be fearful of rocking the boat. Johnson sycophants will never vote against him and (having been so close to Boris) would a Labour CLP accept them? That leaves the MPs in strong seats who will not throw that away for a less strong position under Labour.

If they do not defenestrate Boris then I expect all we will see are more lurches to the right, harsher policies - esp. Law and Order - and lots more weaponised nostaligia.

The latter sounds like a classic core vote operation. In which case, we can say hello to PM Starmer.

Its the exact same lack of political nous that goes with zealots of every persuasion. They are Right. They speak the Truth. So if you disagree with them you are wrong and a liar and obviously working for the other side.

Which is how we ended up with a Corbyn project which disappeared up its own paranoid arse and a Johnson government now thinking that "THEY BANNED CROWN LOGOS ON PINT GLASSES" is a vote winner.

If the claim in PT is correct that they explored the possibility of switching the OS back to miles (linked tweet been deleted) that shows how this fuckwittery can spill over into real world effects. How is the army meant to do joint exercises abroad if its been brought up on rod and perch maps of Dartmoor?

Remember that the best way to kill such stupidity is to say "excellent idea. let us go and look into this for you" and then bury it. They don't actually want to convert to imperial / level up / open grammar schools / bonfire red tape - they just want some headlines. So all the experts have to do is preserve it in aspic long enough for Bonzo and the rest of the clown troop to forget all about it.

Another reason this won't actually happen, is they much much prefer repeatedly announcing the same silly things to appeal to the Express, than implementing whatever silly thing it is. That way, they can announce it all again the following year, and the Express readers will be delighted yet again.

IshmaelZ

RochdalePioneers said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Good morning

Nick makes a good argument and I could see some defections by the conference season if the conservative party has not come to its senses and removed Boris

I would like to take this opportunity of saying that I am not a monarchist, notwithstanding my respect for the queen, and will not be attending any street parties or even watching much of the coverage

However, I do worry we are turning into a society that is joyless and where some want to denigrate those who are looking forward to the celebrations, which frankly is just acting as killjoys for something that shouldn't really bother anyone

We all need to be more tolerant and understanding to each other

Good morning! On your latter points I feel there is a basic division which causes the problems. There are two groups:
Those who will celebrate / not celebrate for their own reasons
Those who will or won't celebrate for political reasons because it winds up the other lot

Frankly I find the spectacle of the monarchy to be amazing and preposterous in equal measure. The Ste Opening of Parliament was both the kind of pageant that we are experts at and an absurd spectacle in equal measure. And the Jubilee isn't much better.

The problem is that there are people who want to drape themselves in the Union flag to stick it up socialists / nationalists, and those repulsed by it all precisely because of the kind of people who are draped in the flag.

The solution is to steal back flags and symbols from the idiots. Blair got this right with the whole "Cool Britannia" thing (until we all got bored) and the Saltire up here is a national pride thing not a nat identity thing. So it can be done.

Don't be silly. I am not a nat baiter, but you are just creating an opening for those who are to post photographs of hundreds and hundreds of obvious scumbags parading saltire through the streets of glasgow, framed to exclude the equal numbers of equal scumbags with UFs.

RochdalePioneers

OnlyLivingBoy said:

RochdalePioneers said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Good morning

Nick makes a good argument and I could see some defections by the conference season if the conservative party has not come to its senses and removed Boris

I would like to take this opportunity of saying that I am not a monarchist, notwithstanding my respect for the queen, and will not be attending any street parties or even watching much of the coverage

However, I do worry we are turning into a society that is joyless and where some want to denigrate those who are looking forward to the celebrations, which frankly is just acting as killjoys for something that shouldn't really bother anyone

We all need to be more tolerant and understanding to each other

Good morning! On your latter points I feel there is a basic division which causes the problems. There are two groups:
Those who will celebrate / not celebrate for their own reasons
Those who will or won't celebrate for political reasons because it winds up the other lot

Frankly I find the spectacle of the monarchy to be amazing and preposterous in equal measure. The Ste Opening of Parliament was both the kind of pageant that we are experts at and an absurd spectacle in equal measure. And the Jubilee isn't much better.

The problem is that there are people who want to drape themselves in the Union flag to stick it up socialists / nationalists, and those repulsed by it all precisely because of the kind of people who are draped in the flag.

The solution is to steal back flags and symbols from the idiots. Blair got this right with the whole "Cool Britannia" thing (until we all got bored) and the Saltire up here is a national pride thing not a nat identity thing. So it can be done.

I will be attending a couple of local street parties over the Jubilee weekend, including one on our street. I'm not sure that in the real world they are terribly divisive, where we live there are probably not many ardent royalists but attendees will have a range of views from those like me who support a constitutional monarchy to convinced republicans. We will all have a good time because we live in a nice friendly neighbourhood full of lovely people and the events are more about celebrating our community and having a good time than anything royalist or patriotic.

As ours will be! And most of the events will be like that. But there are definitely a stack of people out there who are flag shaggers or flag repulsed.

LostPassword

Everyone loves a political defection. The drama! The betrayal! Will there be more!?! (Almost never. Almost)

The defender of injustice now held up as a paragon of virtue. The stories of anguished soul-searching and new political relationships nurtured in the tea rooms of Westminster.

The arch observation that the average intelligence of both parties has been increased by the defection. The bemused responses on all sides in the local constituency parties.

Oh, please let there be more political defections. They are *such* fun.

OnlyLivingBoy

RochdalePioneers said:

IshmaelZ said:

RochdalePioneers said:

rottenborough said:

Beibheirli_C said:

On topic:

I think you are mistaken Nick. Those in weaker seats seem to be fearful of rocking the boat. Johnson sycophants will never vote against him and (having been so close to Boris) would a Labour CLP accept them? That leaves the MPs in strong seats who will not throw that away for a less strong position under Labour.

If they do not defenestrate Boris then I expect all we will see are more lurches to the right, harsher policies - esp. Law and Order - and lots more weaponised nostaligia.

The latter sounds like a classic core vote operation. In which case, we can say hello to PM Starmer.

Its the exact same lack of political nous that goes with zealots of every persuasion. They are Right. They speak the Truth. So if you disagree with them you are wrong and a liar and obviously working for the other side.

Which is how we ended up with a Corbyn project which disappeared up its own paranoid arse and a Johnson government now thinking that "THEY BANNED CROWN LOGOS ON PINT GLASSES" is a vote winner.

If the claim in PT is correct that they explored the possibility of switching the OS back to miles (linked tweet been deleted) that shows how this fuckwittery can spill over into real world effects. How is the army meant to do joint exercises abroad if its been brought up on rod and perch maps of Dartmoor?

Remember that the best way to kill such stupidity is to say "excellent idea. let us go and look into this for you" and then bury it. They don't actually want to convert to imperial / level up / open grammar schools / bonfire red tape - they just want some headlines. So all the experts have to do is preserve it in aspic long enough for Bonzo and the rest of the clown troop to forget all about it.

This is true. The only way to get something truly stupid done is to have a referendum on it.

SandyRentool

A few defections, and the number of letters to trigger a confidence vote will reduce by one.

But presumably any potential defectors will have submitted letters, so actually the chance of a vote would be reduced.

Big_G_NorthWales

RochdalePioneers said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Good morning

Nick makes a good argument and I could see some defections by the conference season if the conservative party has not come to its senses and removed Boris

I would like to take this opportunity of saying that I am not a monarchist, notwithstanding my respect for the queen, and will not be attending any street parties or even watching much of the coverage

However, I do worry we are turning into a society that is joyless and where some want to denigrate those who are looking forward to the celebrations, which frankly is just acting as killjoys for something that shouldn't really bother anyone

We all need to be more tolerant and understanding to each other

Good morning! On your latter points I feel there is a basic division which causes the problems. There are two groups:
Those who will celebrate / not celebrate for their own reasons
Those who will or won't celebrate for political reasons because it winds up the other lot

Frankly I find the spectacle of the monarchy to be amazing and preposterous in equal measure. The Ste Opening of Parliament was both the kind of pageant that we are experts at and an absurd spectacle in equal measure. And the Jubilee isn't much better.

The problem is that there are people who want to drape themselves in the Union flag to stick it up socialists / nationalists, and those repulsed by it all precisely because of the kind of people who are draped in the flag.

The solution is to steal back flags and symbols from the idiots. Blair got this right with the whole "Cool Britannia" thing (until we all got bored) and the Saltire up here is a national pride thing not a nat identity thing. So it can be done.

A fair response which is much where I am

Nigelb

ydoethur said:

Carnyx said:

First!

FPT -

ydoethur said:

Carnyx said:

kjh said:

Foxy said:

dixiedean said:

HYUFD said:

Gardenwalker said:

Foxy said:

Gardenwalker said:

I’m not convinced “bobbies on the beat” *doesn’t* work, if one can use the term in the fullest sense.

To me it implies policemen who take have the time and focus to really understand a specific local community and can therefore act prophylactically, as it were.

The 1997 pledge card pledged to halve the time to sentencing for young offenders.

That sort of pledge should run again. Waiting lists for trial dates are a scandal. In practice a lot of cases are going to have to be abandoned otherwise.

The Tory record on crime is appalling.
Also on health care.
Also on standards of living.

I can’t think of a government - not since Major’s Tories indeed - with a poorer record to take to the voters on the three most salient issues.

In 1997, crime was falling thanks to Howard and unemployment was low and the economy was growing, certainly a better legacy on that than Brown Labour in 2010

There can be no doubt whatsoever that in 1997 Britain was a land of pure delight at the wisdom and foresight of its benign and wise rulers.

1997 was quite some election. I really enjoyed it.

That the economy had picked up didn't endear the government to the voters.

Same here. I was at a party and when the Northavon result came in as a LD win we all looked at each other going where the f*** is Northavon? A bit of thought and we could probably worked out it was north of the Avon.

Yes, but which Avon? There are at least three ignoring soundalikes.

Because it's from the Welsh 'Afon' meaning 'river.'

It's always amused me that so many people river to the 'River Avon' unaware that it's a tautology.

Esk/Usk/etc is also Brythonic for water (cf. Gaelic Uisge in the first element of 'whisky') ... hence the number of Esks and for that matter Axe and Exe too ...

We could Baugh for England on this topic.

Well, we could if either of us were English!

(FPT) There's a Judge Judge, so what's wrong with River River ?

IshmaelZ

turbotubbs said:

RochdalePioneers said:

rottenborough said:

Beibheirli_C said:

On topic:

I think you are mistaken Nick. Those in weaker seats seem to be fearful of rocking the boat. Johnson sycophants will never vote against him and (having been so close to Boris) would a Labour CLP accept them? That leaves the MPs in strong seats who will not throw that away for a less strong position under Labour.

If they do not defenestrate Boris then I expect all we will see are more lurches to the right, harsher policies - esp. Law and Order - and lots more weaponised nostaligia.

The latter sounds like a classic core vote operation. In which case, we can say hello to PM Starmer.

Its the exact same lack of political nous that goes with zealots of every persuasion. They are Right. They speak the Truth. So if you disagree with them you are wrong and a liar and obviously working for the other side.

Which is how we ended up with a Corbyn project which disappeared up its own paranoid arse and a Johnson government now thinking that "THEY BANNED CROWN LOGOS ON PINT GLASSES" is a vote winner.

The imperial measures nonsense is such nonsense, not least as I distinctly remember ordering pints of beer and cider on saturday after cricket and receiving them. And they were the full 568 ml.
No issues at all.

Really, if this is the best the government has, its time to go and have a hard think about what being in power is for.

I think they have never actually used a map or GPS on a walk, nor ever been shopping. I doubt people ever bought bananas by weight in the first place and you certainly don't now, you self-select and weigh to get a price not a weight.

OnlyLivingBoy

RochdalePioneers said:

OnlyLivingBoy said:

RochdalePioneers said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Good morning

Nick makes a good argument and I could see some defections by the conference season if the conservative party has not come to its senses and removed Boris

I would like to take this opportunity of saying that I am not a monarchist, notwithstanding my respect for the queen, and will not be attending any street parties or even watching much of the coverage

However, I do worry we are turning into a society that is joyless and where some want to denigrate those who are looking forward to the celebrations, which frankly is just acting as killjoys for something that shouldn't really bother anyone

We all need to be more tolerant and understanding to each other

Good morning! On your latter points I feel there is a basic division which causes the problems. There are two groups:
Those who will celebrate / not celebrate for their own reasons
Those who will or won't celebrate for political reasons because it winds up the other lot

Frankly I find the spectacle of the monarchy to be amazing and preposterous in equal measure. The Ste Opening of Parliament was both the kind of pageant that we are experts at and an absurd spectacle in equal measure. And the Jubilee isn't much better.

The problem is that there are people who want to drape themselves in the Union flag to stick it up socialists / nationalists, and those repulsed by it all precisely because of the kind of people who are draped in the flag.

The solution is to steal back flags and symbols from the idiots. Blair got this right with the whole "Cool Britannia" thing (until we all got bored) and the Saltire up here is a national pride thing not a nat identity thing. So it can be done.

I will be attending a couple of local street parties over the Jubilee weekend, including one on our street. I'm not sure that in the real world they are terribly divisive, where we live there are probably not many ardent royalists but attendees will have a range of views from those like me who support a constitutional monarchy to convinced republicans. We will all have a good time because we live in a nice friendly neighbourhood full of lovely people and the events are more about celebrating our community and having a good time than anything royalist or patriotic.

As ours will be! And most of the events will be like that. But there are definitely a stack of people out there who are flag shaggers or flag repulsed.

Yes, although my guess would be that both groups are largely made up of people who don't like social events in any case.

IshmaelZ

Nigelb said:

ydoethur said:

Carnyx said:

First!

FPT -

ydoethur said:

Carnyx said:

kjh said:

Foxy said:

dixiedean said:

HYUFD said:

Gardenwalker said:

Foxy said:

Gardenwalker said:

I’m not convinced “bobbies on the beat” *doesn’t* work, if one can use the term in the fullest sense.

To me it implies policemen who take have the time and focus to really understand a specific local community and can therefore act prophylactically, as it were.

The 1997 pledge card pledged to halve the time to sentencing for young offenders.

That sort of pledge should run again. Waiting lists for trial dates are a scandal. In practice a lot of cases are going to have to be abandoned otherwise.

The Tory record on crime is appalling.
Also on health care.
Also on standards of living.

I can’t think of a government - not since Major’s Tories indeed - with a poorer record to take to the voters on the three most salient issues.

In 1997, crime was falling thanks to Howard and unemployment was low and the economy was growing, certainly a better legacy on that than Brown Labour in 2010

There can be no doubt whatsoever that in 1997 Britain was a land of pure delight at the wisdom and foresight of its benign and wise rulers.

1997 was quite some election. I really enjoyed it.

That the economy had picked up didn't endear the government to the voters.

Same here. I was at a party and when the Northavon result came in as a LD win we all looked at each other going where the f*** is Northavon? A bit of thought and we could probably worked out it was north of the Avon.

Yes, but which Avon? There are at least three ignoring soundalikes.

Because it's from the Welsh 'Afon' meaning 'river.'

It's always amused me that so many people river to the 'River Avon' unaware that it's a tautology.

Esk/Usk/etc is also Brythonic for water (cf. Gaelic Uisge in the first element of 'whisky') ... hence the number of Esks and for that matter Axe and Exe too ...

We could Baugh for England on this topic.

Well, we could if either of us were English!

(FPT) There's a Judge Judge, so what's wrong with River River ?

A shame Judge Judge never sat in the City of Townsville

RochdalePioneers

IshmaelZ said:

RochdalePioneers said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Good morning

Nick makes a good argument and I could see some defections by the conference season if the conservative party has not come to its senses and removed Boris

I would like to take this opportunity of saying that I am not a monarchist, notwithstanding my respect for the queen, and will not be attending any street parties or even watching much of the coverage

However, I do worry we are turning into a society that is joyless and where some want to denigrate those who are looking forward to the celebrations, which frankly is just acting as killjoys for something that shouldn't really bother anyone

We all need to be more tolerant and understanding to each other

Good morning! On your latter points I feel there is a basic division which causes the problems. There are two groups:
Those who will celebrate / not celebrate for their own reasons
Those who will or won't celebrate for political reasons because it winds up the other lot

Frankly I find the spectacle of the monarchy to be amazing and preposterous in equal measure. The Ste Opening of Parliament was both the kind of pageant that we are experts at and an absurd spectacle in equal measure. And the Jubilee isn't much better.

The problem is that there are people who want to drape themselves in the Union flag to stick it up socialists / nationalists, and those repulsed by it all precisely because of the kind of people who are draped in the flag.

The solution is to steal back flags and symbols from the idiots. Blair got this right with the whole "Cool Britannia" thing (until we all got bored) and the Saltire up here is a national pride thing not a nat identity thing. So it can be done.

Don't be silly. I am not a nat baiter, but you are just creating an opening for those who are to post photographs of hundreds and hundreds of obvious scumbags parading saltire through the streets of glasgow, framed to exclude the equal numbers of equal scumbags with UFs.

Didn't think I was being silly. You can fly the Saltire up here without looking like a lunatic as you would flying the Union flag south of the wall. Of course some of the people doing so will be hardcore secessionists but that's not everyone. The stylised flag works very well on the side of trains as the union one used to do on BA tails. You couldn't stick the union flag on a train though, just as the "Great British Railways" branding appears ultra tacky.

I think normals should be allowed to reclaim their national identity from the fascists and the political extremes. My FIL flies the Spanish flag in his yard (in Spain for the benefit of the doubt) and its fine, I see people up here with the Saltire. But stick a big union flag on a pole in England and it looks fascist.

SandyRentool

Jubilee preparations in full swing round here.

Bunting outside of Spoons, and the local yarn bombers have put a knitted queen and corgi on top of the post box in the town centre.

Mexicanpete

HYUFD said:

How many Labour MPs defected before 2010 to the Conservatives despite the fact 96 Labour seats would then be lost at that general election? 0. Even before 1997 only 1 Tory MP, Alan Howarth, defected to Labour.

It is very rare to get defections from Tory to Labour or vice versa having spent your whole political career with the other party as your main political enemy. You might get a handful to the LDs but even then those would be more likely to be the most EUphile of Tory MPs and before the 2019 general election Boris ensured all Tory candidates were committed to Brexit anyway

My MP Peter Temple- Morris defected post-1997 albeit via Independent status. Shaun Woodward left too as I recall. So as usual you are careful to select dates which support your narrative.

Anyway, when are Graham Stringer and Rosie Duffield joining Johnson?

tlg86

Big_G_NorthWales said:

I see a French Minister is blaming Liverpool fans for arriving without tickets

I would just say that even if some did, it was upto the organisation of the event to put in arrangements to check tickets further out from the perimeter of the ground and from what I have seen and read the French Minister should hang his head in shame as families and their children were tear gassed by his police

This morning on TalkSPORT they had a Liverpool fan on who said they got to the ground two and a quarter hours before kick off, but wasn't able to get into the ground until after the scheduled kick off time. What I want to know is, what time did the Liverpool fans who were in the ground an hour before the scheduled kick off arrive?

CorrectHorseBattery

https://twitter.com/LBC/status/1531189589960007682

Nick Ferrari asks Shadow Levelling Up Secretary @lisanandy if a woman can be born with a penis. @NickFerrariLBC

Another frontbencher explains the new Labour policy.

Can we stop asking this pointless question now?

Beibheirli_C

IshmaelZ said:

turbotubbs said:

RochdalePioneers said:

rottenborough said:

Beibheirli_C said:

On topic:

I think you are mistaken Nick. Those in weaker seats seem to be fearful of rocking the boat. Johnson sycophants will never vote against him and (having been so close to Boris) would a Labour CLP accept them? That leaves the MPs in strong seats who will not throw that away for a less strong position under Labour.

If they do not defenestrate Boris then I expect all we will see are more lurches to the right, harsher policies - esp. Law and Order - and lots more weaponised nostaligia.

The latter sounds like a classic core vote operation. In which case, we can say hello to PM Starmer.

Its the exact same lack of political nous that goes with zealots of every persuasion. They are Right. They speak the Truth. So if you disagree with them you are wrong and a liar and obviously working for the other side.

Which is how we ended up with a Corbyn project which disappeared up its own paranoid arse and a Johnson government now thinking that "THEY BANNED CROWN LOGOS ON PINT GLASSES" is a vote winner.

The imperial measures nonsense is such nonsense, not least as I distinctly remember ordering pints of beer and cider on saturday after cricket and receiving them. And they were the full 568 ml.
No issues at all.

Really, if this is the best the government has, its time to go and have a hard think about what being in power is for.

I think they have never actually used a map or GPS on a walk, nor ever been shopping. I doubt people ever bought bananas by weight in the first place and you certainly don't now, you self-select and weigh to get a price not a weight.

I buy bananas by the banana

Applicant

Stocky said:

Nick may be right about defections on the way. Mass chicken-run as per Wakeford. I heartily disapprove, no matter of the direction.

I wonder how many of them, like Wakeford, have previously sponsored a bill that would require defectors to resign and fight a by-election?

RochdalePioneers

LostPassword said:

Everyone loves a political defection. The drama! The betrayal! Will there be more!?! (Almost never. Almost)

The defender of injustice now held up as a paragon of virtue. The stories of anguished soul-searching and new political relationships nurtured in the tea rooms of Westminster.

The arch observation that the average intelligence of both parties has been increased by the defection. The bemused responses on all sides in the local constituency parties.

Oh, please let there be more political defections. They are *such* fun.

You know political parties are divided when you can have defections within the party. Labour have been there so many times as have the Tories. The problem is there is not a flag bearer outside the cabinet for the rebels to rally behind.

Everyone seems to agree that Hunt won't become leader. But as a senior ex cabinet member and a previous contender for the top job he feels like the obvious Heseltine figure.

Applicant

Nigelb said:

ydoethur said:

Carnyx said:

First!

FPT -

ydoethur said:

Carnyx said:

kjh said:

Foxy said:

dixiedean said:

HYUFD said:

Gardenwalker said:

Foxy said:

Gardenwalker said:

I’m not convinced “bobbies on the beat” *doesn’t* work, if one can use the term in the fullest sense.

To me it implies policemen who take have the time and focus to really understand a specific local community and can therefore act prophylactically, as it were.

The 1997 pledge card pledged to halve the time to sentencing for young offenders.

That sort of pledge should run again. Waiting lists for trial dates are a scandal. In practice a lot of cases are going to have to be abandoned otherwise.

The Tory record on crime is appalling.
Also on health care.
Also on standards of living.

I can’t think of a government - not since Major’s Tories indeed - with a poorer record to take to the voters on the three most salient issues.

In 1997, crime was falling thanks to Howard and unemployment was low and the economy was growing, certainly a better legacy on that than Brown Labour in 2010

There can be no doubt whatsoever that in 1997 Britain was a land of pure delight at the wisdom and foresight of its benign and wise rulers.

1997 was quite some election. I really enjoyed it.

That the economy had picked up didn't endear the government to the voters.

Same here. I was at a party and when the Northavon result came in as a LD win we all looked at each other going where the f*** is Northavon? A bit of thought and we could probably worked out it was north of the Avon.

Yes, but which Avon? There are at least three ignoring soundalikes.

Because it's from the Welsh 'Afon' meaning 'river.'

It's always amused me that so many people river to the 'River Avon' unaware that it's a tautology.

Esk/Usk/etc is also Brythonic for water (cf. Gaelic Uisge in the first element of 'whisky') ... hence the number of Esks and for that matter Axe and Exe too ...

We could Baugh for England on this topic.

Well, we could if either of us were English!

(FPT) There's a Judge Judge, so what's wrong with River River ?

Sahara Desert is the same...

HYUFD

Mexicanpete said:

HYUFD said:

How many Labour MPs defected before 2010 to the Conservatives despite the fact 96 Labour seats would then be lost at that general election? 0. Even before 1997 only 1 Tory MP, Alan Howarth, defected to Labour.

It is very rare to get defections from Tory to Labour or vice versa having spent your whole political career with the other party as your main political enemy. You might get a handful to the LDs but even then those would be more likely to be the most EUphile of Tory MPs and before the 2019 general election Boris ensured all Tory candidates were committed to Brexit anyway

My MP Peter Temple- Morris defected post-1997 albeit via Independent status. Shaun Woodward left too as I recall. So as usual you are careful to select dates which support your narrative.

Anyway, when are Graham Stringer and Rosie Duffield joining Johnson?

The Conservatives were in opposition when both Temple Morris and Woodward left and again both were staunch EUphiles to Blair Labour and that was still only 2 even in the Hague years

Big_G_NorthWales

CorrectHorseBattery said:

https://twitter.com/LBC/status/1531189589960007682

Nick Ferrari asks Shadow Levelling Up Secretary @lisanandy if a woman can be born with a penis. @NickFerrariLBC

Another frontbencher explains the new Labour policy.

Can we stop asking this pointless question now?

I am afraid that once the media latch onto something they will pursue the ' gocha' moment ad infinitum

Pulpstar

Nigelb said:

ydoethur said:

Carnyx said:

First!

FPT -

ydoethur said:

Carnyx said:

kjh said:

Foxy said:

dixiedean said:

HYUFD said:

Gardenwalker said:

Foxy said:

Gardenwalker said:

I’m not convinced “bobbies on the beat” *doesn’t* work, if one can use the term in the fullest sense.

To me it implies policemen who take have the time and focus to really understand a specific local community and can therefore act prophylactically, as it were.

The 1997 pledge card pledged to halve the time to sentencing for young offenders.

That sort of pledge should run again. Waiting lists for trial dates are a scandal. In practice a lot of cases are going to have to be abandoned otherwise.

The Tory record on crime is appalling.
Also on health care.
Also on standards of living.

I can’t think of a government - not since Major’s Tories indeed - with a poorer record to take to the voters on the three most salient issues.

In 1997, crime was falling thanks to Howard and unemployment was low and the economy was growing, certainly a better legacy on that than Brown Labour in 2010

There can be no doubt whatsoever that in 1997 Britain was a land of pure delight at the wisdom and foresight of its benign and wise rulers.

1997 was quite some election. I really enjoyed it.

That the economy had picked up didn't endear the government to the voters.

Same here. I was at a party and when the Northavon result came in as a LD win we all looked at each other going where the f*** is Northavon? A bit of thought and we could probably worked out it was north of the Avon.

Yes, but which Avon? There are at least three ignoring soundalikes.

Because it's from the Welsh 'Afon' meaning 'river.'

It's always amused me that so many people river to the 'River Avon' unaware that it's a tautology.

Esk/Usk/etc is also Brythonic for water (cf. Gaelic Uisge in the first element of 'whisky') ... hence the number of Esks and for that matter Axe and Exe too ...

We could Baugh for England on this topic.

Well, we could if either of us were English!

(FPT) There's a Judge Judge, so what's wrong with River River ?

My neighbour's kids have adopted this sort of naming convention for their ducks - two of them are called "Runner" and "Peking"

CorrectHorseBattery

The thing is, Wakeford and co aren't really Tories, as I explained when they were elected.

They would have been New Labour under Blair

Stark_Dawning

HYUFD said:

How many Labour MPs defected before 2010 to the Conservatives despite the fact 96 Labour seats would then be lost at that general election? 0. Even before 1997 only 1 Tory MP, Alan Howarth, defected to Labour.

It is very rare to get defections from Tory to Labour or vice versa having spent your whole political career with the other party as your main political enemy. You might get a handful to the LDs but even then those would be more likely to be the most EUphile of Tory MPs and before the 2019 general election Boris ensured all Tory candidates were committed to Brexit anyway

I wonder what the centrist Tory defectors to New Labour - the Howarths, the Woodwards and the Davieses - thought when Jezza came along.

ydoethur

Re discussion on the previous thread, Nevil Shute went up to Oxford in 1919 to study engineering. One of his father's friends said he had never known an engineering graduate from Oxford to fail to succeed in life, but none had ever made it as an engineer. Looking back at his own career, Shute commented drily that he thought there was some truth in this statement.

Ironically, despite only getting a third, he was himself a pretty successful engineer, especially in the airship industry, although after 1930 he was more of a business executive before turning full time to writing with a hiatus as a technician in WWII.

IshmaelZ

Big_G_NorthWales said:

I see a French Minister is blaming Liverpool fans for arriving without tickets

I would just say that even if some did, it was upto the organisation of the event to put in arrangements to check tickets further out from the perimeter of the ground and from what I have seen and read the French Minister should hang his head in shame as families and their children were tear gassed by his police

Surely a longer perimeter is merely less defensible?

If I were the French I'd machine gun them at Calais on the way in, mind, and prosecute any surviving families for allowing a child to be endangered.

CorrectHorseBattery

To be honest I'm surprised France didn't wave the white flag when all of those fans arrived

ydoethur

IshmaelZ said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

I see a French Minister is blaming Liverpool fans for arriving without tickets

I would just say that even if some did, it was upto the organisation of the event to put in arrangements to check tickets further out from the perimeter of the ground and from what I have seen and read the French Minister should hang his head in shame as families and their children were tear gassed by his police

Surely a longer perimeter is merely less defensible?

If I were the French I'd machine gun them at Calais on the way in, mind, and prosecute any surviving families for allowing a child to be endangered.

Why bother? Just tell Priti Patel they're asylum seekers and she'll have the Royal Navy sink them on the way over and send any survivors to Rwanda.

Applicant

.

Big_G_NorthWales said:

CorrectHorseBattery said:

https://twitter.com/LBC/status/1531189589960007682

Nick Ferrari asks Shadow Levelling Up Secretary @lisanandy if a woman can be born with a penis. @NickFerrariLBC

Another frontbencher explains the new Labour policy.

Can we stop asking this pointless question now?

I am afraid that once the media latch onto something they will pursue the ' gocha' moment ad infinitum

Yeah, and it's a bit much for a one-eyed Labourite to complain about the technique only on the rare occasions it's used on them.

OldKingCole

Nigelb said:

ydoethur said:

Carnyx said:

First!

FPT -

ydoethur said:

Carnyx said:

kjh said:

Foxy said:

dixiedean said:

HYUFD said:

Gardenwalker said:

Foxy said:

Gardenwalker said:

I’m not convinced “bobbies on the beat” *doesn’t* work, if one can use the term in the fullest sense.

To me it implies policemen who take have the time and focus to really understand a specific local community and can therefore act prophylactically, as it were.

The 1997 pledge card pledged to halve the time to sentencing for young offenders.

That sort of pledge should run again. Waiting lists for trial dates are a scandal. In practice a lot of cases are going to have to be abandoned otherwise.

The Tory record on crime is appalling.
Also on health care.
Also on standards of living.

I can’t think of a government - not since Major’s Tories indeed - with a poorer record to take to the voters on the three most salient issues.

In 1997, crime was falling thanks to Howard and unemployment was low and the economy was growing, certainly a better legacy on that than Brown Labour in 2010

There can be no doubt whatsoever that in 1997 Britain was a land of pure delight at the wisdom and foresight of its benign and wise rulers.

1997 was quite some election. I really enjoyed it.

That the economy had picked up didn't endear the government to the voters.

Same here. I was at a party and when the Northavon result came in as a LD win we all looked at each other going where the f*** is Northavon? A bit of thought and we could probably worked out it was north of the Avon.

Yes, but which Avon? There are at least three ignoring soundalikes.

Because it's from the Welsh 'Afon' meaning 'river.'

It's always amused me that so many people river to the 'River Avon' unaware that it's a tautology.

Esk/Usk/etc is also Brythonic for water (cf. Gaelic Uisge in the first element of 'whisky') ... hence the number of Esks and for that matter Axe and Exe too ...

We could Baugh for England on this topic.

Well, we could if either of us were English!

(FPT) There's a Judge Judge, so what's wrong with River River ?

Bit like the (alleged) reason for the large Aussie jumping animal being called a 'kangaroo' isn't it?
Saxon, pointing 'Whats that" Briton "A river'!

Big_G_NorthWales

tlg86 said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

I see a French Minister is blaming Liverpool fans for arriving without tickets

I would just say that even if some did, it was upto the organisation of the event to put in arrangements to check tickets further out from the perimeter of the ground and from what I have seen and read the French Minister should hang his head in shame as families and their children were tear gassed by his police

This morning on TalkSPORT they had a Liverpool fan on who said they got to the ground two and a quarter hours before kick off, but wasn't able to get into the ground until after the scheduled kick off time. What I want to know is, what time did the Liverpool fans who were in the ground an hour before the scheduled kick off arrive?

When my daughter, her husband and I went to the Champions League final with Man Utd in 1999 in Barcelona we were in the ground at least one hour before kick off

Nigelb

Brief first hand account of conditions on the front line. Sounds unpleasant.
https://mobile.twitter.com/EuromaidanPress/status/1531046131899281408

CorrectHorseBattery

Applicant said:

.

Big_G_NorthWales said:

CorrectHorseBattery said:

https://twitter.com/LBC/status/1531189589960007682

Nick Ferrari asks Shadow Levelling Up Secretary @lisanandy if a woman can be born with a penis. @NickFerrariLBC

Another frontbencher explains the new Labour policy.

Can we stop asking this pointless question now?

I am afraid that once the media latch onto something they will pursue the ' gocha' moment ad infinitum

Yeah, and it's a bit much for a one-eyed Labourite to complain about the technique only on the rare occasions it's used on them.

You must be gutted your pals are so far behind in the polls, beergate failed and now surely Johnson must be announcing a new bridge to the moon?

Benpointer

Is it me or is the daily MOD brief on Ukraine becoming lost in the realms of wishful thinking?

https://twitter.com/DefenceHQ/status/1531143716840284161?s=20&t=FIwr0IRFqeu7iJ3RTVZDBQ

It starts with:
"Russia has likely suffered devastating losses amongst its mid and junior ranking officers..."

Whereas all the new outlets are indicating Russian progress, sadly, e.g. the BBC's "Heavy fighting as Russia advances into key eastern city".

CorrectHorseBattery

https://twitter.com/JAHeale/status/1531189521978728448

Prime Minister Boris Johnson now the least popular member of his own Cabinet among the Tory grassroots h/t @ConHome

Boris Johnson, winning again!

Beibheirli_C

CorrectHorseBattery said:

https://twitter.com/LBC/status/1531189589960007682

Nick Ferrari asks Shadow Levelling Up Secretary @lisanandy if a woman can be born with a penis. @NickFerrariLBC

Another frontbencher explains the new Labour policy.

Can we stop asking this pointless question now?

I suggest that the next time a journalist asks such a question, the respondent ask them to drop their pants just to establish a basis for the conversation. There was a great vid on Youtube a few years back where a trans woman asked the (female) interviewer the same sort of questions that she normally got asked, but altered slightly - "Do you have a vagina? Can I see it? Are your boobs real? Can I touch them? When did you have your first period? What's it like having sex?" etc... The interviewer sad they were the most intrusive, rude and upsetting questions she had ever been asked....

Applicant

CorrectHorseBattery said:

Applicant said:

.

Big_G_NorthWales said:

CorrectHorseBattery said:

https://twitter.com/LBC/status/1531189589960007682

Nick Ferrari asks Shadow Levelling Up Secretary @lisanandy if a woman can be born with a penis. @NickFerrariLBC

Another frontbencher explains the new Labour policy.

Can we stop asking this pointless question now?

I am afraid that once the media latch onto something they will pursue the ' gocha' moment ad infinitum

Yeah, and it's a bit much for a one-eyed Labourite to complain about the technique only on the rare occasions it's used on them.

You must be gutted your pals are so far behind in the polls, beergate failed and now surely Johnson must be announcing a new bridge to the moon?

My pals? I voted Labour as recently as 2012 and have been begging for months for them to come up with some decent policies so I can consider voting for them again - but all they seem to be able to come up with is "the same mistakes the Tories are making, but bigger" - oh, and the "new policy" that biology exists.

IshmaelZ

RochdalePioneers said:

IshmaelZ said:

RochdalePioneers said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Good morning

Nick makes a good argument and I could see some defections by the conference season if the conservative party has not come to its senses and removed Boris

I would like to take this opportunity of saying that I am not a monarchist, notwithstanding my respect for the queen, and will not be attending any street parties or even watching much of the coverage

However, I do worry we are turning into a society that is joyless and where some want to denigrate those who are looking forward to the celebrations, which frankly is just acting as killjoys for something that shouldn't really bother anyone

We all need to be more tolerant and understanding to each other

Good morning! On your latter points I feel there is a basic division which causes the problems. There are two groups:
Those who will celebrate / not celebrate for their own reasons
Those who will or won't celebrate for political reasons because it winds up the other lot

Frankly I find the spectacle of the monarchy to be amazing and preposterous in equal measure. The Ste Opening of Parliament was both the kind of pageant that we are experts at and an absurd spectacle in equal measure. And the Jubilee isn't much better.

The problem is that there are people who want to drape themselves in the Union flag to stick it up socialists / nationalists, and those repulsed by it all precisely because of the kind of people who are draped in the flag.

The solution is to steal back flags and symbols from the idiots. Blair got this right with the whole "Cool Britannia" thing (until we all got bored) and the Saltire up here is a national pride thing not a nat identity thing. So it can be done.

Don't be silly. I am not a nat baiter, but you are just creating an opening for those who are to post photographs of hundreds and hundreds of obvious scumbags parading saltire through the streets of glasgow, framed to exclude the equal numbers of equal scumbags with UFs.

Didn't think I was being silly. You can fly the Saltire up here without looking like a lunatic as you would flying the Union flag south of the wall. Of course some of the people doing so will be hardcore secessionists but that's not everyone. The stylised flag works very well on the side of trains as the union one used to do on BA tails. You couldn't stick the union flag on a train though, just as the "Great British Railways" branding appears ultra tacky.

I think normals should be allowed to reclaim their national identity from the fascists and the political extremes. My FIL flies the Spanish flag in his yard (in Spain for the benefit of the doubt) and its fine, I see people up here with the Saltire. But stick a big union flag on a pole in England and it looks fascist.

That is all entirely subjective, I just think "pillock" in all the cases you mention.

There's a little old bloke in a little bungalow near my sister in Invernessshire who must have a collection of almost all the national flags in the world, as he flies one for the opposition whenever England play anyone else, at any sport.

Stuartinromford

Big_G_NorthWales said:

HYUFD said:

How many Labour MPs defected before 2010 to the Conservatives despite the fact 96 Labour seats would then be lost at that general election? 0. Even before 1997 only 1 Tory MP, Alan Howarth, defected to Labour.

It is very rare to get defections from Tory to Labour or vice versa having spent your whole political career with the other party as your main political enemy. You might get a handful to the LDs but even then those would be more likely to be the most EUphile of Tory MPs and before the 2019 general election Boris ensured all Tory candidates were committed to Brexit anyway

'Your main political enemy'

Is this why you threaten Scotland with tanks ?

Opponent is the correct term

Besides, as any fule kno, the opposition are the ones on the opposite side, the ones you can see.

The enemy are the ones behind you, that you can't see. After all, you can only stab someone in the back from behind.

ydoethur

Beibheirli_C said:

CorrectHorseBattery said:

https://twitter.com/LBC/status/1531189589960007682

Nick Ferrari asks Shadow Levelling Up Secretary @lisanandy if a woman can be born with a penis. @NickFerrariLBC

Another frontbencher explains the new Labour policy.

Can we stop asking this pointless question now?

I suggest that the next time a journalist asks such a question, the respondent ask them to drop their pants just to establish a basis for the conversation. There was a great vid on Youtube a few years back where a trans woman asked the (female) interviewer the same sort of questions that she normally got asked, but altered slightly - "Do you have a vagina? Can I see it? Are your boobs real? Can I touch them? When did you have your first period? What's it like having sex?" etc... The interviewer sad they were the most intrusive, rude and upsetting questions she had ever been asked....

Their credibility would disappear in a flash.

CorrectHorseBattery

Applicant said:

CorrectHorseBattery said:

Applicant said:

.

Big_G_NorthWales said:

CorrectHorseBattery said:

https://twitter.com/LBC/status/1531189589960007682

Nick Ferrari asks Shadow Levelling Up Secretary @lisanandy if a woman can be born with a penis. @NickFerrariLBC

Another frontbencher explains the new Labour policy.

Can we stop asking this pointless question now?

I am afraid that once the media latch onto something they will pursue the ' gocha' moment ad infinitum

Yeah, and it's a bit much for a one-eyed Labourite to complain about the technique only on the rare occasions it's used on them.

You must be gutted your pals are so far behind in the polls, beergate failed and now surely Johnson must be announcing a new bridge to the moon?

My pals? I voted Labour as recently as 2012 and have been begging for months for them to come up with some decent policies so I can consider voting for them again - but all they seem to be able to come up with is "the same mistakes the Tories are making, but bigger" - oh, and the "new policy" that biology is a thing.

You voted Labour in 2012 so in the local elections? What did Ed M do in 2015 to annoy you so much?

Windfall tax, cutting VAT - the Tories keep stealing them

Stark_Dawning

HYUFD said:

Mexicanpete said:

HYUFD said:

How many Labour MPs defected before 2010 to the Conservatives despite the fact 96 Labour seats would then be lost at that general election? 0. Even before 1997 only 1 Tory MP, Alan Howarth, defected to Labour.

It is very rare to get defections from Tory to Labour or vice versa having spent your whole political career with the other party as your main political enemy. You might get a handful to the LDs but even then those would be more likely to be the most EUphile of Tory MPs and before the 2019 general election Boris ensured all Tory candidates were committed to Brexit anyway

My MP Peter Temple- Morris defected post-1997 albeit via Independent status. Shaun Woodward left too as I recall. So as usual you are careful to select dates which support your narrative.

Anyway, when are Graham Stringer and Rosie Duffield joining Johnson?

The Conservatives were in opposition when both Temple Morris and Woodward left and again both were staunch EUphiles to Blair Labour and that was still only 2 even in the Hague years

Not sure that Woodward was a notable Europhile. Gay rights were his stated thing and the fact that the Tories were no longer the party of John Major.

Theuniondivvie

OnlyLivingBoy said:

RochdalePioneers said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Good morning

Nick makes a good argument and I could see some defections by the conference season if the conservative party has not come to its senses and removed Boris

I would like to take this opportunity of saying that I am not a monarchist, notwithstanding my respect for the queen, and will not be attending any street parties or even watching much of the coverage

However, I do worry we are turning into a society that is joyless and where some want to denigrate those who are looking forward to the celebrations, which frankly is just acting as killjoys for something that shouldn't really bother anyone

We all need to be more tolerant and understanding to each other

Good morning! On your latter points I feel there is a basic division which causes the problems. There are two groups:
Those who will celebrate / not celebrate for their own reasons
Those who will or won't celebrate for political reasons because it winds up the other lot

Frankly I find the spectacle of the monarchy to be amazing and preposterous in equal measure. The Ste Opening of Parliament was both the kind of pageant that we are experts at and an absurd spectacle in equal measure. And the Jubilee isn't much better.

The problem is that there are people who want to drape themselves in the Union flag to stick it up socialists / nationalists, and those repulsed by it all precisely because of the kind of people who are draped in the flag.

The solution is to steal back flags and symbols from the idiots. Blair got this right with the whole "Cool Britannia" thing (until we all got bored) and the Saltire up here is a national pride thing not a nat identity thing. So it can be done.

I will be attending a couple of local street parties over the Jubilee weekend, including one on our street. I'm not sure that in the real world they are terribly divisive, where we live there are probably not many ardent royalists but attendees will have a range of views from those like me who support a constitutional monarchy to convinced republicans. We will all have a good time because we live in a nice friendly neighbourhood full of lovely people and the events are more about celebrating our community and having a good time than anything royalist or patriotic.

I am frankly raging that I have not been provided with more of a choice of Jooby street parties to boycott.

noneoftheabove

tlg86 said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

I see a French Minister is blaming Liverpool fans for arriving without tickets

I would just say that even if some did, it was upto the organisation of the event to put in arrangements to check tickets further out from the perimeter of the ground and from what I have seen and read the French Minister should hang his head in shame as families and their children were tear gassed by his police

This morning on TalkSPORT they had a Liverpool fan on who said they got to the ground two and a quarter hours before kick off, but wasn't able to get into the ground until after the scheduled kick off time. What I want to know is, what time did the Liverpool fans who were in the ground an hour before the scheduled kick off arrive?

Not unusual at these events that some of the entrances work fine, and others don't. So two fans arriving at the ground at same time might get in hours apart.

For this type of game where it is obvious there can be problems, I would generally look to be at the ground at least 3.5 hours before kick off and be getting inside the stadium at least 2 hours before kick off, preferably 2.5.

CorrectHorseBattery

I am glad from a political view that Labour now seem to have a popular view on the whole trans debate but I am going to be totally honest when I say, it doesn't impact how I vote and I don't know anyone else who it does either.

I can't believe there is somebody that goes, that CoL crisis is terrible and I am struggling to eat but those trans policies are a bridge too far, Tory for me. Am I wrong?

Big_G_NorthWales

CorrectHorseBattery said:

To be honest I'm surprised France didn't wave the white flag when all of those fans arrived

Not sure what you mean by that

Policing large sporting events involving 100,000 fans or more requires responsibility from the police which France singularly failed to do

You only need to recall Hillsborough to understand the tragedy that a failed policing operation can result in, but by the grace of God this did not happen in Paris

Applicant

CorrectHorseBattery said:

Applicant said:

CorrectHorseBattery said:

Applicant said:

.

Big_G_NorthWales said:

CorrectHorseBattery said:

https://twitter.com/LBC/status/1531189589960007682

Nick Ferrari asks Shadow Levelling Up Secretary @lisanandy if a woman can be born with a penis. @NickFerrariLBC

Another frontbencher explains the new Labour policy.

Can we stop asking this pointless question now?

I am afraid that once the media latch onto something they will pursue the ' gocha' moment ad infinitum

Yeah, and it's a bit much for a one-eyed Labourite to complain about the technique only on the rare occasions it's used on them.

You must be gutted your pals are so far behind in the polls, beergate failed and now surely Johnson must be announcing a new bridge to the moon?

My pals? I voted Labour as recently as 2012 and have been begging for months for them to come up with some decent policies so I can consider voting for them again - but all they seem to be able to come up with is "the same mistakes the Tories are making, but bigger" - oh, and the "new policy" that biology is a thing.

You voted Labour in 2012 so in the local elections? What did Ed M do in 2015 to annoy you so much?

Windfall tax, cutting VAT - the Tories keep stealing them

2015? The complete lack of policies, for a start. Out of his great six "policies", as carved in stone, five and a half of them were things that nobody on any side would have disagreed with.

And in any case in 2015 I voted Lib Dem because, on balance, despite some of their shenanigans in coalition, they deserved a better reward for doing the right thing and going into coalition with Cameron.

As for windfall tax - you prove my point. A terrible idea that Labour would do the same, but bigger.

Beibheirli_C

CorrectHorseBattery said:

I am glad from a political view that Labour now seem to have a popular view on the whole trans debate but I am going to be totally honest when I say, it doesn't impact how I vote and I don't know anyone else who it does either.

I can't believe there is somebody that goes, that CoL crisis is terrible and I am struggling to eat but those trans policies are a bridge too far, Tory for me. Am I wrong?

I suspect that most people worry more about their own problems that those that upset policy activists

another_richard

CorrectHorseBattery said:

The thing is, Wakeford and co aren't really Tories, as I explained when they were elected.

They would have been New Labour under Blair

Aren't you confirming the 'Blair was a Tory' meme so beloved of many Labour supporters.

Although I'd say some of the 2019 Conservatives were more old rather than new Labour - support high government spending, socially moderate, distrust of globalisation, local rather than London based.

TheWhiteRabbit

noneoftheabove said:

tlg86 said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

I see a French Minister is blaming Liverpool fans for arriving without tickets

I would just say that even if some did, it was upto the organisation of the event to put in arrangements to check tickets further out from the perimeter of the ground and from what I have seen and read the French Minister should hang his head in shame as families and their children were tear gassed by his police

This morning on TalkSPORT they had a Liverpool fan on who said they got to the ground two and a quarter hours before kick off, but wasn't able to get into the ground until after the scheduled kick off time. What I want to know is, what time did the Liverpool fans who were in the ground an hour before the scheduled kick off arrive?

Not unusual at these events that some of the entrances work fine, and others don't. So two fans arriving at the ground at same time might get in hours apart.

For this type of game where it is obvious there can be problems, I would generally look to be at the ground at least 3.5 hours before kick off and be getting inside the stadium at least 2 hours before kick off, preferably 2.5.

Couldn't grounds do more to encourage this? Put some show on before hand that some fans would like to be there for but not others? Bring out a big screen and what highlights of their route to the final?

When I go to concerts at the O2, this is effectively what happens.

CorrectHorseBattery

Applicant said:

CorrectHorseBattery said:

Applicant said:

CorrectHorseBattery said:

Applicant said:

.

Big_G_NorthWales said:

CorrectHorseBattery said:

https://twitter.com/LBC/status/1531189589960007682

Nick Ferrari asks Shadow Levelling Up Secretary @lisanandy if a woman can be born with a penis. @NickFerrariLBC

Another frontbencher explains the new Labour policy.

Can we stop asking this pointless question now?

I am afraid that once the media latch onto something they will pursue the ' gocha' moment ad infinitum

Yeah, and it's a bit much for a one-eyed Labourite to complain about the technique only on the rare occasions it's used on them.

You must be gutted your pals are so far behind in the polls, beergate failed and now surely Johnson must be announcing a new bridge to the moon?

My pals? I voted Labour as recently as 2012 and have been begging for months for them to come up with some decent policies so I can consider voting for them again - but all they seem to be able to come up with is "the same mistakes the Tories are making, but bigger" - oh, and the "new policy" that biology is a thing.

You voted Labour in 2012 so in the local elections? What did Ed M do in 2015 to annoy you so much?

Windfall tax, cutting VAT - the Tories keep stealing them

2015? The complete lack of policies, for a start. Out of his great six "policies", as carved in stone, five and a half of them were things that nobody on any side would have disagreed with.

And in any case in 2015 I voted Lib Dem because, on balance, despite some of their shenanigans in coalition, they deserved a better reward for doing the right thing and going into coalition with Cameron.

As for windfall tax - you prove my point. A terrible idea that Labour would do the same, but bigger.

I liked Ed M, he would have been a much better PM than anyone else who has come since.

He had a terrible team of advisers.

Big_G_NorthWales

Conhome has Boris at the bottom of the cabinet ratings on -15

Just when will his mps come to their senses

Applicant

CorrectHorseBattery said:

I am glad from a political view that Labour now seem to have a popular view on the whole trans debate but I am going to be totally honest when I say, it doesn't impact how I vote and I don't know anyone else who it does either.

I can't believe there is somebody that goes, that CoL crisis is terrible and I am struggling to eat but those trans policies are a bridge too far, Tory for me. Am I wrong?

Ah, I see you're missing the point of the focus on the inability or unwillingness to define a woman.

Dura_Ace

Benpointer said:

Is it me or is the daily MOD brief on Ukraine becoming lost in the realms of wishful thinking?

https://twitter.com/DefenceHQ/status/1531143716840284161?s=20&t=FIwr0IRFqeu7iJ3RTVZDBQ

It starts with:
"Russia has likely suffered devastating losses amongst its mid and junior ranking officers..."

Whereas all the new outlets are indicating Russian progress, sadly, e.g. the BBC's "Heavy fighting as Russia advances into key eastern city".

Johnson has nailed his tattered colours firmly to the Ukrainian mast but is running out of shit to send them. Hence panglossian interpretations of events from the MoD.

CorrectHorseBattery

another_richard said:

CorrectHorseBattery said:

The thing is, Wakeford and co aren't really Tories, as I explained when they were elected.

They would have been New Labour under Blair

Aren't you confirming the 'Blair was a Tory' meme so beloved of many Labour supporters.

Although I'd say some of the 2019 Conservatives were more old rather than new Labour - support high government spending, socially moderate, distrust of globalisation, local rather than London based.

Blair wasn't a Tory, Blair was of the centre left.

These MPs I think belong there naturally - and I think the ease of which Wakeford moved is why that's true.

Benpointer

CorrectHorseBattery said:

https://twitter.com/LBC/status/1531189589960007682

Nick Ferrari asks Shadow Levelling Up Secretary @lisanandy if a woman can be born with a penis. @NickFerrariLBC

Another frontbencher explains the new Labour policy.

Can we stop asking this pointless question now?

Does Nick Ferrari post on here as @Leon? They both seem equally obsessed with penises.

Great answer from Nandy btw - it's the first time I have really watched her in an interview like that tbh. Rather impressive.

NickPalmer

Stocky said:

Header: when you complement the government in the area of animal welfare what exactly are you referring to?

They are ending live exports for slaughter and fattening - a major issue for the last 50 years which used to trigger enormous demonstrations and at least one protester death. They've increased penalties for cruelty to animals (levelling up to the Northern Ireland regulations, which curiously were stricter). They are considering phasing out cages for hens and pigs (farrowing crates), and may be introducing animal welfare labelling on meat.

There are things I don't agree with too - some of the above have been very slow, and the trade deals risk undermining some of the progress. But overall, in fairness, they're making a decent effort. Both major parties have shifted on this and there is very little partisan opposition.

CorrectHorseBattery

Applicant said:

CorrectHorseBattery said:

I am glad from a political view that Labour now seem to have a popular view on the whole trans debate but I am going to be totally honest when I say, it doesn't impact how I vote and I don't know anyone else who it does either.

I can't believe there is somebody that goes, that CoL crisis is terrible and I am struggling to eat but those trans policies are a bridge too far, Tory for me. Am I wrong?

Ah, I see you're missing the point of the focus on the inability or unwillingness to define a woman.

They defined a woman in the call - as I said the policy is now what people seem to want. Job done?

I'm not saying it can't be important, I just don't know anyone genuinely who votes on this issue. I am happy to be corrected.

Alphabet_Soup

Stark_Dawning said:

HYUFD said:

Mexicanpete said:

HYUFD said:

How many Labour MPs defected before 2010 to the Conservatives despite the fact 96 Labour seats would then be lost at that general election? 0. Even before 1997 only 1 Tory MP, Alan Howarth, defected to Labour.

It is very rare to get defections from Tory to Labour or vice versa having spent your whole political career with the other party as your main political enemy. You might get a handful to the LDs but even then those would be more likely to be the most EUphile of Tory MPs and before the 2019 general election Boris ensured all Tory candidates were committed to Brexit anyway

My MP Peter Temple- Morris defected post-1997 albeit via Independent status. Shaun Woodward left too as I recall. So as usual you are careful to select dates which support your narrative.

Anyway, when are Graham Stringer and Rosie Duffield joining Johnson?

The Conservatives were in opposition when both Temple Morris and Woodward left and again both were staunch EUphiles to Blair Labour and that was still only 2 even in the Hague years

Not sure that Woodward was a notable Europhile. Gay rights were his stated thing and the fact that the Tories were no longer the party of John Major.

Not only did Woodward defect, he famously took his butler with him and the National Union of Butlers gained a stalwart member. It would be misleading to suggest they have never looked back as looking back is essentially what they do, but it added to the jollity of the nation back in those dark days when we had to wait 25 years between jubilees.

Beibheirli_C

CorrectHorseBattery said:

https://twitter.com/JAHeale/status/1531189521978728448

Prime Minister Boris Johnson now the least popular member of his own Cabinet among the Tory grassroots h/t @ConHome

Boris Johnson, winning again!

He will be announcing an order for Spitfires for the RAF next

TheScreamingEagles

tlg86 said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

I see a French Minister is blaming Liverpool fans for arriving without tickets

I would just say that even if some did, it was upto the organisation of the event to put in arrangements to check tickets further out from the perimeter of the ground and from what I have seen and read the French Minister should hang his head in shame as families and their children were tear gassed by his police

This morning on TalkSPORT they had a Liverpool fan on who said they got to the ground two and a quarter hours before kick off, but wasn't able to get into the ground until after the scheduled kick off time. What I want to know is, what time did the Liverpool fans who were in the ground an hour before the scheduled kick off arrive?

5.30pm in my case.

We were advised that the gates would open at 5.30pm to 6pm

Big_G_NorthWales

Beibheirli_C said:

CorrectHorseBattery said:

https://twitter.com/LBC/status/1531189589960007682

Nick Ferrari asks Shadow Levelling Up Secretary @lisanandy if a woman can be born with a penis. @NickFerrariLBC

Another frontbencher explains the new Labour policy.

Can we stop asking this pointless question now?

I suggest that the next time a journalist asks such a question, the respondent ask them to drop their pants just to establish a basis for the conversation. There was a great vid on Youtube a few years back where a trans woman asked the (female) interviewer the same sort of questions that she normally got asked, but altered slightly - "Do you have a vagina? Can I see it? Are your boobs real? Can I touch them? When did you have your first period? What's it like having sex?" etc... The interviewer sad they were the most intrusive, rude and upsetting questions she had ever been asked....

The last journalist I saw ask the question was Kay Burley so what are you suggesting?

CorrectHorseBattery

Benpointer said:

CorrectHorseBattery said:

https://twitter.com/LBC/status/1531189589960007682

Nick Ferrari asks Shadow Levelling Up Secretary @lisanandy if a woman can be born with a penis. @NickFerrariLBC

Another frontbencher explains the new Labour policy.

Can we stop asking this pointless question now?

Does Nick Ferrari post on here as @Leon? They both seem equally obsessed with penises.

Great answer from Nandy btw - it's the first time I have really watched her in an interview like that tbh. Rather impressive.

Basically copy and paste of Wes Streeting's answer, who I think answered it slightly more coherently. That's always been Nandy's problem IMHO, she talks sense but waffles a bit.

Shocking because as I said, that is the Labour policy and Starmer will affirm the same in the next few weeks. I understand this from my friend.

IshmaelZ

Beibheirli_C said:

CorrectHorseBattery said:

https://twitter.com/LBC/status/1531189589960007682

Nick Ferrari asks Shadow Levelling Up Secretary @lisanandy if a woman can be born with a penis. @NickFerrariLBC

Another frontbencher explains the new Labour policy.

Can we stop asking this pointless question now?

I suggest that the next time a journalist asks such a question, the respondent ask them to drop their pants just to establish a basis for the conversation. There was a great vid on Youtube a few years back where a trans woman asked the (female) interviewer the same sort of questions that she normally got asked, but altered slightly - "Do you have a vagina? Can I see it? Are your boobs real? Can I touch them? When did you have your first period? What's it like having sex?" etc... The interviewer sad they were the most intrusive, rude and upsetting questions she had ever been asked....

Link, or it didn't happen, and does it really work anyway? extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, commonplace ones don't, and what is this bloke doing on telly anyway if he doesn't like that sort of question?

EPG

A blast from the past. And not an unwelcome one.

Applicant

CorrectHorseBattery said:

Applicant said:

CorrectHorseBattery said:

I am glad from a political view that Labour now seem to have a popular view on the whole trans debate but I am going to be totally honest when I say, it doesn't impact how I vote and I don't know anyone else who it does either.

I can't believe there is somebody that goes, that CoL crisis is terrible and I am struggling to eat but those trans policies are a bridge too far, Tory for me. Am I wrong?

Ah, I see you're missing the point of the focus on the inability or unwillingness to define a woman.

They defined a woman in the call - as I said the policy is now what people seem to want. Job done?

I'm not saying it can't be important, I just don't know anyone genuinely who votes on this issue. I am happy to be corrected.

The point is not that people vote directly on the issue, but that it betrays a lack of common sense/nouse/ability to think logically and that casts a shadow over everything else that they say.

tlg86

noneoftheabove said:

tlg86 said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

I see a French Minister is blaming Liverpool fans for arriving without tickets

I would just say that even if some did, it was upto the organisation of the event to put in arrangements to check tickets further out from the perimeter of the ground and from what I have seen and read the French Minister should hang his head in shame as families and their children were tear gassed by his police

This morning on TalkSPORT they had a Liverpool fan on who said they got to the ground two and a quarter hours before kick off, but wasn't able to get into the ground until after the scheduled kick off time. What I want to know is, what time did the Liverpool fans who were in the ground an hour before the scheduled kick off arrive?

Not unusual at these events that some of the entrances work fine, and others don't. So two fans arriving at the ground at same time might get in hours apart.

For this type of game where it is obvious there can be problems, I would generally look to be at the ground at least 3.5 hours before kick off and be getting inside the stadium at least 2 hours before kick off, preferably 2.5.

The fans look fairly evenly spread out in that image, so I doubt there were issues with specific gates. Gates opened at 18:00, so I wouldn't blame fans for not getting there much before then:

https://www.uefa.com/uefachampionsleague/event-guide/stadium/

Stark_Dawning

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Conhome has Boris at the bottom of the cabinet ratings on -15

Just when will his mps come to their senses

I wonder what's brought this on. It can't be PartyGate - most Tories think that's all part of Boris's charm. The CoL largesse?

CorrectHorseBattery

Applicant said:

CorrectHorseBattery said:

Applicant said:

CorrectHorseBattery said:

I am glad from a political view that Labour now seem to have a popular view on the whole trans debate but I am going to be totally honest when I say, it doesn't impact how I vote and I don't know anyone else who it does either.

I can't believe there is somebody that goes, that CoL crisis is terrible and I am struggling to eat but those trans policies are a bridge too far, Tory for me. Am I wrong?

Ah, I see you're missing the point of the focus on the inability or unwillingness to define a woman.

They defined a woman in the call - as I said the policy is now what people seem to want. Job done?

I'm not saying it can't be important, I just don't know anyone genuinely who votes on this issue. I am happy to be corrected.

The point is not that people vote directly on the issue, but that it betrays a lack of common sense/nouse/ability to think logically and that casts a shadow over everything else that they say.

But who is actually concluding that from this? I don't know anyone.

If it was at all important, it would show up in the polls that get asked about important issues. Or it would impact Labour's numbers.

In focus groups it doesn't come up from everything I have seen. They still call Starmer boring