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Could more Tory MP defections be in the pipeline? – politicalbetting.com

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  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,872

    'Ok guys, jus' spitballing here, but what if we try tunnels again, only in a different place?'

    'Genius, trebles all round!'





    Great! They work in Norway and the Faroes. Once again the UK is backwards when it comes to infrastructure.
    How many Islands?.... How many tunnels?

    Compared to a few ferries now and again?

    Tunnels are always going to be better than ferries, due to not having to worry about the weather. Which is why the Greenwich foot tunnel was built during the reign of Queen Victoria.

    I don't see any particular reason why the Orkney and Shetland Islands shouldn't follow the Faroes in having tunnels between some of the islands.
    I'd say that the people suggesting it are short term political kite flyers rather than strategic planners, so a good reason for it almost definitely not happening (though not a bad idea per se).
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 8,145

    Do Britons believe the Gov't is currently taking the right measures to address the cost-of-living crisis?

    Yes 16%
    No 70%

    Do Britons believe a Gov't led by the Labour Party would currently be taking the right measures to address the cost-of-living crisis?

    Yes 36%
    No 36%

    It would be interesting to see the entrails

    My guess is the answer for the Tories is most of their opponents plus a % of their voters (with opponents from both ends)say no.

    For Labour mist of their supporters will give them the benefit of the doubt

    In short I’m not sure this polling is particularly illuminating
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,790
    .
    Dura_Ace said:

    ydoethur said:

    Farooq said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Cicero said:



    There are now over 40,000 refugees here, and this is, please remember, in a population of only 1.3 million. The fact that Britain is still imposing visa restrictions in a piecemeal and incompetent way so that essentially only family members of those Ukrainian citizens already in the country are being let in, means the total number of actual refugeesnin Britain is barely more than Estonia, for a country more than 50 times the size.

    We recently had the first and apparently only visit from Social Services to make sure we aren't mistreating "our" Ukrainians. They were fucking hopeless and the Ukrainians found it very unsettling assuming it to be a visit from our version of the KGB. Which, in a sense, it was.
    Interesting. Do you think there are any ways in which social services and the KGB are different?
    Social services still exist, the KGB don't.

    The KGB had some high profile successes as well as clusterfucks. Social services tend only to manage the latter (for 'high profile' cases).
    This was a clusterfuck.

    They insisted on having their own translator on the phone despite being told many times this wasn't necessary. The translator was fucking terrible and not translating accurately. One of the first things they said was something on the lines of, "We've have to make sure you wouldn't be better off somewhere else". This caused both Ukrainians to start weeping volubly. At this point I thought Mrs DA was going to ask to borrow my Ruger 10/22 and I was going to have to spend all night digging shallow graves in the woods.
    Shallow is usually a mistake, I think ?
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    Carnyx said:

    kle4 said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    https://twitter.com/JAHeale/status/1531189521978728448

    Prime Minister Boris Johnson now the least popular member of his own Cabinet among the Tory grassroots h/t @ConHome

    Boris Johnson, winning again!

    He will be announcing an order for Spitfires for the RAF next :D:D
    The RAF already finds it absolutely necessary to operate six (and two Hurricanes).
    Probably get more consistent use out of them than much of our kit?
    The FAA have closed down their equivalent of the Battle of Britain Memorial Flight (more exactly, handed it over to a charitable trust AIUI). Their priorities are correct ...
    After that twonk who took out 11 people at Shoreham i'd prefer these things to be maintained and flown by the Air Force, or not at all
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,683

    'Ok guys, jus' spitballing here, but what if we try tunnels again, only in a different place?'

    'Genius, trebles all round!'





    Well at least they seem to have rejected overwater tunnels.
    Or 'almost but not quite breaking the surface' tunnels, which seemed to be mooted for the Johnson Crossing to NI at one time.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    Nigelb said:

    .

    Dura_Ace said:

    ydoethur said:

    Farooq said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Cicero said:



    There are now over 40,000 refugees here, and this is, please remember, in a population of only 1.3 million. The fact that Britain is still imposing visa restrictions in a piecemeal and incompetent way so that essentially only family members of those Ukrainian citizens already in the country are being let in, means the total number of actual refugeesnin Britain is barely more than Estonia, for a country more than 50 times the size.

    We recently had the first and apparently only visit from Social Services to make sure we aren't mistreating "our" Ukrainians. They were fucking hopeless and the Ukrainians found it very unsettling assuming it to be a visit from our version of the KGB. Which, in a sense, it was.
    Interesting. Do you think there are any ways in which social services and the KGB are different?
    Social services still exist, the KGB don't.

    The KGB had some high profile successes as well as clusterfucks. Social services tend only to manage the latter (for 'high profile' cases).
    This was a clusterfuck.

    They insisted on having their own translator on the phone despite being told many times this wasn't necessary. The translator was fucking terrible and not translating accurately. One of the first things they said was something on the lines of, "We've have to make sure you wouldn't be better off somewhere else". This caused both Ukrainians to start weeping volubly. At this point I thought Mrs DA was going to ask to borrow my Ruger 10/22 and I was going to have to spend all night digging shallow graves in the woods.
    Shallow is usually a mistake, I think ?
    It's easy to sneer, but have you seen how deep a proper grave is? Just not achievable by one man in one night which is the time usually allowed
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,270
    Some old nonsense just came through on Twitter. Is it true that Johnson went pro- Leave because the Telegraph threatened to remove his £275,000 pa hobble if he did not?

    So the cost of Brexit was £275,000 pa. Let's put that on the side of a bus.

    Conservative MPs get rid of this appalling man.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,922
    Boris Johnson faces a forever inquiry over partygate - an investigation without end. My @tortoise column https://www.tortoisemedia.com/2022/05/30/the-forever-inquiry/
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,979
    ydoethur said:

    Cicero said:

    I have been catching up with the UK media this morning with a growing sense of disbelief and even rage. Here in Estonia, we recognise that the war in Ukraine is existential for European democracy. If Ukraine loses, the full force of Russian brutality will go on to challenge every other European democracy, including the UK and Ireland.

    There are now over 40,000 refugees here, and this is, please remember, in a population of only 1.3 million. The fact that Britain is still imposing visa restrictions in a piecemeal and incompetent way so that essentially only family members of those Ukrainian citizens already in the country are being let in, means the total number of actual refugeesnin Britain is barely more than Estonia, for a country more than 50 times the size. Poland is dealing with over 3.5 million refugees. Meanwhile the Brits are running around patting themselves on the back thinking that Boris is leading the charge. Um... he really is not. Across the Baltic there are crowd funding programmes that are buying equipment and supplies for the Ukrainians. In a single day the Lithuanians (total population 2.7 million) funded €5 million for a Bayraktar. However. although I do find the Daily Mail printing any old rubbish about the war irritating, it is the Johnson circus that has been raising my blood pressure.

    The British economy is already trying to compete with one hand behind its back. A chaotic tarrif regime, new restrictions and a massive amount of paperwork have had a strongely negative effect on exports. Small and medium size businesses have been disproportionately affected. I notice daily that the number of previously available British products, from Alpen to Lea and Perrins Worcestershire sauce are no longer available here. This is happening across British export markets.

    The response to this is "restore Imperial measurements". In otherwords, impose further costs on the UK economy for no economic gain whatsoever. Basically no one under the age of 60 has been taught the rules of the Imperial system, it is the kind of nostalgia that allows people in the their fifties to talk about the Second World War as though they had anything to do with it. This is a government that thinks going back to the 70s or even the 50s is the solution to their political ills.

    Britian has got to escape this absurdity. The nostalgia trap will see us relegated to the lowest economic leagues. The fact that Johnson is doing it to try to save his own worthless political life is simply contemptible.

    The Conservative grown ups: Ben Wallace, Therese Coffey, Anne Marie Trevelyan and even Liz Truss, have got to deal with Johnson (and the absurd Rees Mogg) now. The longer this farce continues, the greater the economic damage and the lower the reputation of the country will fall.

    If you can consider even Liz Truss would be better, things must look grim.

    The news from Eastern Ukraine certainly does. It's starting to look as though the question will be whether Luhansk, Donetsk and the Azov coast will be enough to satisfy Putin, at least for now so that he stops his attacks on the rest of Ukraine.

    His past record doesn't exactly inspire hope, and it's quite clear that's not what he wanted.

    Any further info from your position on what the Russian government might be thinking?
    Donbas and the coast probably would satisfy him, as a salami slice, hence why he should have focused on it from the start. Dare we say international opposition would have been less unified had he done so as well.

    One can easily see him declaring job partly done and graciously stating he's willing to ceasefire at that point. Hopefully Ukraine can recover to a strong enough position they are not left with no option but to accept that. Once gone the areas will be gone forever if 'ceasefire' creates a new line.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,683

    'Ok guys, jus' spitballing here, but what if we try tunnels again, only in a different place?'

    'Genius, trebles all round!'





    Great! They work in Norway and the Faroes. Once again the UK is backwards when it comes to infrastructure.
    How many Islands?.... How many tunnels?

    Compared to a few ferries now and again?

    Tunnels are always going to be better than ferries, due to not having to worry about the weather. Which is why the Greenwich foot tunnel was built during the reign of Queen Victoria.

    I don't see any particular reason why the Orkney and Shetland Islands shouldn't follow the Faroes in having tunnels between some of the islands.
    I'd say that the people suggesting it are short term political kite flyers rather than strategic planners, so a good reason for it almost definitely not happening (though not a bad idea per se).
    Makes fair sense for the Shetland main island axis; though one would want to check how deeply glaciated the lateral troughs were. Orkney is more scattered, and the Churchill Barriers already connect the main ring around Scapa, apart from Hoy. A tunnel to the mainland would make some sense, esp if from Hoy to Thurso (and back to Stromness). But I don't think the UK boosters are really thinking: rail tunnels across the Dornoch Firth, Cromarty Firth (from Invergordon) and Kessock Narrows would be a huge improvement all round.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    Do Britons believe the Gov't is currently taking the right measures to address the cost-of-living crisis?

    Yes 16%
    No 70%

    Do Britons believe a Gov't led by the Labour Party would currently be taking the right measures to address the cost-of-living crisis?

    Yes 36%
    No 36%

    It would be interesting to see the entrails

    My guess is the answer for the Tories is most of their opponents plus a % of their voters (with opponents from both ends)say no.

    For Labour mist of their supporters will give them the benefit of the doubt

    In short I’m not sure this polling is particularly illuminating
    Also, do people who say not right, all think the error is on the down side. I ain't no hardline weakest go to the wall hard line capitalist, but how it has always worked is, in recessions, individuals tighten their belts and live on fresh air, companies fail, and then you get a recovery. little to no sign of govt help for hard working families. Were we doing it wrong all along?
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,683
    IshmaelZ said:

    Nigelb said:

    .

    Dura_Ace said:

    ydoethur said:

    Farooq said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Cicero said:



    There are now over 40,000 refugees here, and this is, please remember, in a population of only 1.3 million. The fact that Britain is still imposing visa restrictions in a piecemeal and incompetent way so that essentially only family members of those Ukrainian citizens already in the country are being let in, means the total number of actual refugeesnin Britain is barely more than Estonia, for a country more than 50 times the size.

    We recently had the first and apparently only visit from Social Services to make sure we aren't mistreating "our" Ukrainians. They were fucking hopeless and the Ukrainians found it very unsettling assuming it to be a visit from our version of the KGB. Which, in a sense, it was.
    Interesting. Do you think there are any ways in which social services and the KGB are different?
    Social services still exist, the KGB don't.

    The KGB had some high profile successes as well as clusterfucks. Social services tend only to manage the latter (for 'high profile' cases).
    This was a clusterfuck.

    They insisted on having their own translator on the phone despite being told many times this wasn't necessary. The translator was fucking terrible and not translating accurately. One of the first things they said was something on the lines of, "We've have to make sure you wouldn't be better off somewhere else". This caused both Ukrainians to start weeping volubly. At this point I thought Mrs DA was going to ask to borrow my Ruger 10/22 and I was going to have to spend all night digging shallow graves in the woods.
    Shallow is usually a mistake, I think ?
    It's easy to sneer, but have you seen how deep a proper grave is? Just not achievable by one man in one night which is the time usually allowed
    And tree roots, iron pan, boulders, hard clay subsoil, etc. etc.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,683
    Farooq said:

    'Ok guys, jus' spitballing here, but what if we try tunnels again, only in a different place?'

    'Genius, trebles all round!'





    Great! They work in Norway and the Faroes. Once again the UK is backwards when it comes to infrastructure.
    How many Islands?.... How many tunnels?

    Compared to a few ferries now and again?

    Tunnels are always going to be better than ferries, due to not having to worry about the weather. Which is why the Greenwich foot tunnel was built during the reign of Queen Victoria.

    I don't see any particular reason why the Orkney and Shetland Islands shouldn't follow the Faroes in having tunnels between some of the islands.
    There's a tunnel in Greenwich that's only 30cm long?
    Rotherhithe tunnel was earlier IIRC. Brunel sen and jun innit.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,683
    edited May 2022
    IshmaelZ said:

    Carnyx said:

    kle4 said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    https://twitter.com/JAHeale/status/1531189521978728448

    Prime Minister Boris Johnson now the least popular member of his own Cabinet among the Tory grassroots h/t @ConHome

    Boris Johnson, winning again!

    He will be announcing an order for Spitfires for the RAF next :D:D
    The RAF already finds it absolutely necessary to operate six (and two Hurricanes).
    Probably get more consistent use out of them than much of our kit?
    The FAA have closed down their equivalent of the Battle of Britain Memorial Flight (more exactly, handed it over to a charitable trust AIUI). Their priorities are correct ...
    After that twonk who took out 11 people at Shoreham i'd prefer these things to be maintained and flown by the Air Force, or not at all
    Fair enough; but it is a secondary question. The first is, is it the job of the Raff to defend the kingdom or is it to give Brexiters wet underwear?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,790
    edited May 2022

    Nigelb said:

    Is it me or is the daily MOD brief on Ukraine becoming lost in the realms of wishful thinking?

    https://twitter.com/DefenceHQ/status/1531143716840284161?s=20&t=FIwr0IRFqeu7iJ3RTVZDBQ

    It starts with:
    "Russia has likely suffered devastating losses amongst its mid and junior ranking officers..."

    Whereas all the new outlets are indicating Russian progress, sadly, e.g. the BBC's "Heavy fighting as Russia advances into key eastern city".

    No - both things you quote above are true.
    Russia is taking territory, but slowly, and at great cost.

    Ukraine claimed several T62s destroyed yesterday, so it seems Russia is genuinely reduced to throwing in obsolete replacements for their lost equipment.

    They still have significantly superior artillery (in numbers, certainly), but recent and ongoing deliveries to Ukraine are beginning to redress the balance.
    For now there's no real sign of Ukraine's resolve to fight weakening.
    I remember the Korean War. The North attacked, drove the South and the Americans almost out of the peninsula. Then the Americans, ourselves and the South landed behind the Northern lines and they were driven back almost to the Chinese border.
    Then the Chinese joined in and everyone ended up pretty well where they'd started.
    That was a very different war, though, as it was as much, if not more a civil war as it was a contest between the west and Russia/China. True, the north invaded the south, but the post WWII division of the country was imposed rather than natural, and there were massive numbers of Koreans in both north and south opposed to the regimes they lived under.
    As to your last point, that might be true of the border - it certainly isn't true of the people, as there was huge displacement of population in both directions.

    Ukraine, in contrast is quite simply an invasion by a hostile power.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,683
    edited May 2022
    Selebian said:

    'Ok guys, jus' spitballing here, but what if we try tunnels again, only in a different place?'

    'Genius, trebles all round!'





    Great! They work in Norway and the Faroes. Once again the UK is backwards when it comes to infrastructure.
    Linking the smaller islands to the mainland in Shetland could be a bit of a game-changer for the small islands. There's a noticeable difference between e.g. Unst and the main island. The causeways made a big difference to the Western Isles (also some negatives, of course, including implication in the storm surge that took out that family some years back)

    See in Faroe this has been done with tunnels. Why tunnels rather than bridges? Weather conditions?
    There is a good reason for causeways/bridges, though: to combine with tidal power.

  • FlatlanderFlatlander Posts: 4,622
    edited May 2022
    Selebian said:

    Cicero said:

    The response to this is "restore Imperial measurements". In otherwords, impose further costs on the UK economy for no economic gain whatsoever. Basically no one under the age of 60 has been taught the rules of the Imperial system, it is the kind of nostalgia that allows people in the their fifties to talk about the Second World War as though they had anything to do with it. This is a government that thinks going back to the 70s or even the 50s is the solution to their political ills.

    Britian has got to escape this absurdity. The nostalgia trap will see us relegated to the lowest economic leagues. The fact that Johnson is doing it to try to save his own worthless political life is simply contemptible.

    Allowing imperial measurements doesn't impose any costs at all because nobody is obliged to use them if they don't want to.

    What's absurd is not giving up on imposing metric conformity but the hysterical reactions of people who engage in this kind of national psychoanalysis. What you're doing is not all that far removed from Maria Zakharova condemning Ukraine for wanting to claim borscht for itself.
    It shouldn't be difficult with the aid of computers to provide prices in both sets of measures if people wish.

    Then customers can use the set of measures that most suit them.
    It's just change for the sake of change. Which is what the left were accused of, once upon a time.
    I sincerely hope. they won't suggest it for medicine. That really would be 'cat, meet some pigeons!'
    Nurse! 1/2800oz of morphine, now, please!

    What could possibly go wrong?
    Haven't there been incidents with the metric system where mg and μg have been confused? I think μg is banned as a notation in some parts.

    Relying on a prefix makes it easier to get wrong. Particularly when the two prefixes are just the same letter in different languages.

    Not that I would advocate for grains as an alternative.
  • CiceroCicero Posts: 3,070

    Cicero said:

    I have been catching up with the UK media this morning with a growing sense of disbelief and even rage. Here in Estonia, we recognise that the war in Ukraine is existential for European democracy. If Ukraine loses, the full force of Russian brutality will go on to challenge every other European democracy, including the UK and Ireland.

    There are now over 40,000 refugees here, and this is, please remember, in a population of only 1.3 million. The fact that Britain is still imposing visa restrictions in a piecemeal and incompetent way so that essentially only family members of those Ukrainian citizens already in the country are being let in, means the total number of actual refugeesnin Britain is barely more than Estonia, for a country more than 50 times the size. Poland is dealing with over 3.5 million refugees. Meanwhile the Brits are running around patting themselves on the back thinking that Boris is leading the charge. Um... he really is not. Across the Baltic there are crowd funding programmes that are buying equipment and supplies for the Ukrainians. In a single day the Lithuanians (total population 2.7 million) funded €5 million for a Bayraktar. However. although I do find the Daily Mail printing any old rubbish about the war irritating, it is the Johnson circus that has been raising my blood pressure.

    The British economy is already trying to compete with one hand behind its back. A chaotic tarrif regime, new restrictions and a massive amount of paperwork have had a strongely negative effect on exports. Small and medium size businesses have been disproportionately affected. I notice daily that the number of previously available British products, from Alpen to Lea and Perrins Worcestershire sauce are no longer available here. This is happening across British export markets.

    The response to this is "restore Imperial measurements". In otherwords, impose further costs on the UK economy for no economic gain whatsoever. Basically no one under the age of 60 has been taught the rules of the Imperial system, it is the kind of nostalgia that allows people in the their fifties to talk about the Second World War as though they had anything to do with it. This is a government that thinks going back to the 70s or even the 50s is the solution to their political ills.

    Britian has got to escape this absurdity. The nostalgia trap will see us relegated to the lowest economic leagues. The fact that Johnson is doing it to try to save his own worthless political life is simply contemptible.

    The Conservative grown ups: Ben Wallace, Therese Coffey, Anne Marie Trevelyan and even Liz Truss, have got to deal with Johnson (and the absurd Rees Mogg) now. The longer this farce continues, the greater the economic damage and the lower the reputation of the country will fall.

    Whilst I completely agree with your post and can only imagine how absurd we look on the outside, you have committed the cardinal sin.

    You said "Meanwhile the Brits are running around patting themselves on the back thinking that Boris is leading the charge. Um... he really is not. "

    We know that Boris has personally armed and trained the Ukrainian army led the free world and is a Hero in Ukraine unlike EU quislings in France and Germany.

    That you would post such heresy in Jubilee week just proves that you are one of those statue-cancelling lady cock advocating wokeist traitors that Leon is always complaining about. You don't even have the decency to post from a leaver patriot place like France. Shame! Shame I say!
    Shame indeed RP :smile:
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,790
    IshmaelZ said:

    Nigelb said:

    .

    Dura_Ace said:

    ydoethur said:

    Farooq said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Cicero said:



    There are now over 40,000 refugees here, and this is, please remember, in a population of only 1.3 million. The fact that Britain is still imposing visa restrictions in a piecemeal and incompetent way so that essentially only family members of those Ukrainian citizens already in the country are being let in, means the total number of actual refugeesnin Britain is barely more than Estonia, for a country more than 50 times the size.

    We recently had the first and apparently only visit from Social Services to make sure we aren't mistreating "our" Ukrainians. They were fucking hopeless and the Ukrainians found it very unsettling assuming it to be a visit from our version of the KGB. Which, in a sense, it was.
    Interesting. Do you think there are any ways in which social services and the KGB are different?
    Social services still exist, the KGB don't.

    The KGB had some high profile successes as well as clusterfucks. Social services tend only to manage the latter (for 'high profile' cases).
    This was a clusterfuck.

    They insisted on having their own translator on the phone despite being told many times this wasn't necessary. The translator was fucking terrible and not translating accurately. One of the first things they said was something on the lines of, "We've have to make sure you wouldn't be better off somewhere else". This caused both Ukrainians to start weeping volubly. At this point I thought Mrs DA was going to ask to borrow my Ruger 10/22 and I was going to have to spend all night digging shallow graves in the woods.
    Shallow is usually a mistake, I think ?
    It's easy to sneer, but have you seen how deep a proper grave is? Just not achievable by one man in one night which is the time usually allowed
    @Dura_Ace has, though, an unusual quantity of tools at his disposal.
    It wouldn't surprise me were he to have a ditch digging machine in one of his barns.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,735
    Farooq said:

    'Ok guys, jus' spitballing here, but what if we try tunnels again, only in a different place?'

    'Genius, trebles all round!'





    Great! They work in Norway and the Faroes. Once again the UK is backwards when it comes to infrastructure.
    How many Islands?.... How many tunnels?

    Compared to a few ferries now and again?

    Tunnels are always going to be better than ferries, due to not having to worry about the weather. Which is why the Greenwich foot tunnel was built during the reign of Queen Victoria.

    I don't see any particular reason why the Orkney and Shetland Islands shouldn't follow the Faroes in having tunnels between some of the islands.
    There's a tunnel in Greenwich that's only 30cm long?
    It's been known as the Greenwich 30cm tunnel since 1973 but the Tories are going to change its name back, apparently.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,683
    Carnyx said:

    'Ok guys, jus' spitballing here, but what if we try tunnels again, only in a different place?'

    'Genius, trebles all round!'





    Great! They work in Norway and the Faroes. Once again the UK is backwards when it comes to infrastructure.
    How many Islands?.... How many tunnels?

    Compared to a few ferries now and again?

    Tunnels are always going to be better than ferries, due to not having to worry about the weather. Which is why the Greenwich foot tunnel was built during the reign of Queen Victoria.

    I don't see any particular reason why the Orkney and Shetland Islands shouldn't follow the Faroes in having tunnels between some of the islands.
    I'd say that the people suggesting it are short term political kite flyers rather than strategic planners, so a good reason for it almost definitely not happening (though not a bad idea per se).
    Makes fair sense for the Shetland main island axis; though one would want to check how deeply glaciated the lateral troughs were. Orkney is more scattered, and the Churchill Barriers already connect the main ring around Scapa, apart from Hoy. A tunnel to the mainland would make some sense, esp if from Hoy to Thurso (and back to Stromness). But I don't think the UK boosters are really thinking: rail tunnels across the Dornoch Firth, Cromarty Firth (from Invergordon) and Kessock Narrows would be a huge improvement all round.
    For that matter a rail tunnel under the Firth of Forth to relieve capacity and fatigue loading on the Forth Bridge. There will have been enough studies done for the Queensferry Crossing, and as the Scots generally seem to deliver most such projects on time and within budget (rail electrification, Q. Crossing) in marked contrast to the DfT, it could be quite promising.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    Applicant said:

    I am glad from a political view that Labour now seem to have a popular view on the whole trans debate but I am going to be totally honest when I say, it doesn't impact how I vote and I don't know anyone else who it does either.

    I can't believe there is somebody that goes, that CoL crisis is terrible and I am struggling to eat but those trans policies are a bridge too far, Tory for me. Am I wrong?

    Ah, I see you're missing the point of the focus on the inability or unwillingness to define a woman.
    More that you are missing the point that aside from the hyper partisan and the political zealots nobody else cares.

    Its a fascinating bit of political bubble projection that people may be made poorer and may be fed up with the government's massive failings but can't vote Labour because of something one of them said about what a woman us.

    Politics was much more fun when the grown ups were on both sides. Could have genuine policy debates. Now its more like having to explain to the other side very excited by lady cocks that their issue is very small and the voters are far away.
    I’m not sure telling them they are “very small” is the best choice of phrase
    Yeah, is he saying that lady dicks are not as big as mens'?

    reactionary bilge.
  • ApplicantApplicant Posts: 3,379
    Carnyx said:

    Farooq said:

    'Ok guys, jus' spitballing here, but what if we try tunnels again, only in a different place?'

    'Genius, trebles all round!'





    Great! They work in Norway and the Faroes. Once again the UK is backwards when it comes to infrastructure.
    How many Islands?.... How many tunnels?

    Compared to a few ferries now and again?

    Tunnels are always going to be better than ferries, due to not having to worry about the weather. Which is why the Greenwich foot tunnel was built during the reign of Queen Victoria.

    I don't see any particular reason why the Orkney and Shetland Islands shouldn't follow the Faroes in having tunnels between some of the islands.
    There's a tunnel in Greenwich that's only 30cm long?
    Rotherhithe tunnel was earlier IIRC. Brunel sen and jun innit.
    I've walked through the Greenwich and Woolwich tunnels. Not Rotherhithe, yet.

    https://www.ianvisits.co.uk/articles/walking-through-a-tunnel-under-the-thames-part-1-11764/
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,247
    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    'Ok guys, jus' spitballing here, but what if we try tunnels again, only in a different place?'

    'Genius, trebles all round!'





    Great! They work in Norway and the Faroes. Once again the UK is backwards when it comes to infrastructure.
    How many Islands?.... How many tunnels?

    Compared to a few ferries now and again?

    Tunnels are always going to be better than ferries, due to not having to worry about the weather. Which is why the Greenwich foot tunnel was built during the reign of Queen Victoria.

    I don't see any particular reason why the Orkney and Shetland Islands shouldn't follow the Faroes in having tunnels between some of the islands.
    I'd say that the people suggesting it are short term political kite flyers rather than strategic planners, so a good reason for it almost definitely not happening (though not a bad idea per se).
    Makes fair sense for the Shetland main island axis; though one would want to check how deeply glaciated the lateral troughs were. Orkney is more scattered, and the Churchill Barriers already connect the main ring around Scapa, apart from Hoy. A tunnel to the mainland would make some sense, esp if from Hoy to Thurso (and back to Stromness). But I don't think the UK boosters are really thinking: rail tunnels across the Dornoch Firth, Cromarty Firth (from Invergordon) and Kessock Narrows would be a huge improvement all round.
    For that matter a rail tunnel under the Firth of Forth to relieve capacity and fatigue loading on the Forth Bridge. There will have been enough studies done for the Queensferry Crossing, and as the Scots generally seem to deliver most such projects on time and within budget (rail electrification, Q. Crossing) in marked contrast to the DfT, it could be quite promising.
    Shame about the ferries...
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    IshmaelZ said:

    Nigelb said:

    .

    Dura_Ace said:

    ydoethur said:

    Farooq said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Cicero said:



    There are now over 40,000 refugees here, and this is, please remember, in a population of only 1.3 million. The fact that Britain is still imposing visa restrictions in a piecemeal and incompetent way so that essentially only family members of those Ukrainian citizens already in the country are being let in, means the total number of actual refugeesnin Britain is barely more than Estonia, for a country more than 50 times the size.

    We recently had the first and apparently only visit from Social Services to make sure we aren't mistreating "our" Ukrainians. They were fucking hopeless and the Ukrainians found it very unsettling assuming it to be a visit from our version of the KGB. Which, in a sense, it was.
    Interesting. Do you think there are any ways in which social services and the KGB are different?
    Social services still exist, the KGB don't.

    The KGB had some high profile successes as well as clusterfucks. Social services tend only to manage the latter (for 'high profile' cases).
    This was a clusterfuck.

    They insisted on having their own translator on the phone despite being told many times this wasn't necessary. The translator was fucking terrible and not translating accurately. One of the first things they said was something on the lines of, "We've have to make sure you wouldn't be better off somewhere else". This caused both Ukrainians to start weeping volubly. At this point I thought Mrs DA was going to ask to borrow my Ruger 10/22 and I was going to have to spend all night digging shallow graves in the woods.
    Shallow is usually a mistake, I think ?
    It's easy to sneer, but have you seen how deep a proper grave is? Just not achievable by one man in one night which is the time usually allowed
    I once saw an otherwise risible Liam Neeson “angry old man takes out baddies” movie where he recommended wrapping bodies in chicken wire before dumping them in water so the fish could get at them….struck me as a useful tip…
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,683
    Applicant said:

    Carnyx said:

    Farooq said:

    'Ok guys, jus' spitballing here, but what if we try tunnels again, only in a different place?'

    'Genius, trebles all round!'





    Great! They work in Norway and the Faroes. Once again the UK is backwards when it comes to infrastructure.
    How many Islands?.... How many tunnels?

    Compared to a few ferries now and again?

    Tunnels are always going to be better than ferries, due to not having to worry about the weather. Which is why the Greenwich foot tunnel was built during the reign of Queen Victoria.

    I don't see any particular reason why the Orkney and Shetland Islands shouldn't follow the Faroes in having tunnels between some of the islands.
    There's a tunnel in Greenwich that's only 30cm long?
    Rotherhithe tunnel was earlier IIRC. Brunel sen and jun innit.
    I've walked through the Greenwich and Woolwich tunnels. Not Rotherhithe, yet.

    https://www.ianvisits.co.uk/articles/walking-through-a-tunnel-under-the-thames-part-1-11764/
    Only done Greenwich!

    IIRC Rotherhithe might be tricky to walk through without being fried by accident. It was converted to a Tube line at some point, though I've been on the train through it. Not sure about current situation with all the changes.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,683
    Sandpit said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    'Ok guys, jus' spitballing here, but what if we try tunnels again, only in a different place?'

    'Genius, trebles all round!'



    Great! They work in Norway and the Faroes. Once again the UK is backwards when it comes to infrastructure.
    How many Islands?.... How many tunnels?

    Compared to a few ferries now and again?

    Tunnels are always going to be better than ferries, due to not having to worry about the weather. Which is why the Greenwich foot tunnel was built during the reign of Queen Victoria.

    I don't see any particular reason why the Orkney and Shetland Islands shouldn't follow the Faroes in having tunnels between some of the islands.
    I'd say that the people suggesting it are short term political kite flyers rather than strategic planners, so a good reason for it almost definitely not happening (though not a bad idea per se).
    Makes fair sense for the Shetland main island axis; though one would want to check how deeply glaciated the lateral troughs were. Orkney is more scattered, and the Churchill Barriers already connect the main ring around Scapa, apart from Hoy. A tunnel to the mainland would make some sense, esp if from Hoy to Thurso (and back to Stromness). But I don't think the UK boosters are really thinking: rail tunnels across the Dornoch Firth, Cromarty Firth (from Invergordon) and Kessock Narrows would be a huge improvement all round.
    For that matter a rail tunnel under the Firth of Forth to relieve capacity and fatigue loading on the Forth Bridge. There will have been enough studies done for the Queensferry Crossing, and as the Scots generally seem to deliver most such projects on time and within budget (rail electrification, Q. Crossing) in marked contrast to the DfT, it could be quite promising.
    They need to build another bridge first. There’s three bridges there now, the next one will be the Fourth Bridge.
    No need; just call the tunnel the Forth Crossing.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,380
    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Is it me or is the daily MOD brief on Ukraine becoming lost in the realms of wishful thinking?

    https://twitter.com/DefenceHQ/status/1531143716840284161?s=20&t=FIwr0IRFqeu7iJ3RTVZDBQ

    It starts with:
    "Russia has likely suffered devastating losses amongst its mid and junior ranking officers..."

    Whereas all the new outlets are indicating Russian progress, sadly, e.g. the BBC's "Heavy fighting as Russia advances into key eastern city".

    No - both things you quote above are true.
    Russia is taking territory, but slowly, and at great cost.

    Ukraine claimed several T62s destroyed yesterday, so it seems Russia is genuinely reduced to throwing in obsolete replacements for their lost equipment.

    They still have significantly superior artillery (in numbers, certainly), but recent and ongoing deliveries to Ukraine are beginning to redress the balance.
    For now there's no real sign of Ukraine's resolve to fight weakening.
    I remember the Korean War. The North attacked, drove the South and the Americans almost out of the peninsula. Then the Americans, ourselves and the South landed behind the Northern lines and they were driven back almost to the Chinese border.
    Then the Chinese joined in and everyone ended up pretty well where they'd started.
    That was a very different war, though, as it was as much, if not more a civil war as it was a contest between the west and Russia/China. True, the north invaded the south, but the post WWII division of the country was imposed rather than natural, and there were massive numbers of Koreans in both north and south opposed to the regimes they lived under.
    As to your last point, that might be true of the border - it certainly isn't true of the people, as there were huge displacement of population in both directions.

    Ukraine, in contrast is quite simply an invasion by a hostile power.
    To be honest, Mr B, I think we're both over-simplifying. AIUI, all the Koreans wanted after 1945 was to be left alone to rebuild their nation after 50 or so years of Japanese colonisation. And Kim (whatever he was) and the S Korean leader were close to being very much the same.
    Agree about the border, but I don't think many moved North.

    In Ukraine there are some at least who still consider themselves Russian.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    ydoethur said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    'Ok guys, jus' spitballing here, but what if we try tunnels again, only in a different place?'

    'Genius, trebles all round!'





    Great! They work in Norway and the Faroes. Once again the UK is backwards when it comes to infrastructure.
    How many Islands?.... How many tunnels?

    Compared to a few ferries now and again?

    Tunnels are always going to be better than ferries, due to not having to worry about the weather. Which is why the Greenwich foot tunnel was built during the reign of Queen Victoria.

    I don't see any particular reason why the Orkney and Shetland Islands shouldn't follow the Faroes in having tunnels between some of the islands.
    I'd say that the people suggesting it are short term political kite flyers rather than strategic planners, so a good reason for it almost definitely not happening (though not a bad idea per se).
    Makes fair sense for the Shetland main island axis; though one would want to check how deeply glaciated the lateral troughs were. Orkney is more scattered, and the Churchill Barriers already connect the main ring around Scapa, apart from Hoy. A tunnel to the mainland would make some sense, esp if from Hoy to Thurso (and back to Stromness). But I don't think the UK boosters are really thinking: rail tunnels across the Dornoch Firth, Cromarty Firth (from Invergordon) and Kessock Narrows would be a huge improvement all round.
    For that matter a rail tunnel under the Firth of Forth to relieve capacity and fatigue loading on the Forth Bridge. There will have been enough studies done for the Queensferry Crossing, and as the Scots generally seem to deliver most such projects on time and within budget (rail electrification, Q. Crossing) in marked contrast to the DfT, it could be quite promising.
    Shame about the ferries...
    And the trains…..and the airport….and BiFab….
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    Carnyx said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Carnyx said:

    kle4 said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    https://twitter.com/JAHeale/status/1531189521978728448

    Prime Minister Boris Johnson now the least popular member of his own Cabinet among the Tory grassroots h/t @ConHome

    Boris Johnson, winning again!

    He will be announcing an order for Spitfires for the RAF next :D:D
    The RAF already finds it absolutely necessary to operate six (and two Hurricanes).
    Probably get more consistent use out of them than much of our kit?
    The FAA have closed down their equivalent of the Battle of Britain Memorial Flight (more exactly, handed it over to a charitable trust AIUI). Their priorities are correct ...
    After that twonk who took out 11 people at Shoreham i'd prefer these things to be maintained and flown by the Air Force, or not at all
    Fair enough; but it is a secondary question. The first is, is it the job of the Raff to defend the kingdom or is it to give Brexiters wet underwear?
    Well, it's also the job of the army to troop the Colour and the Navy to fire 87 gun salutes for HMQ. Soft power innit. The BoB was an actual thing, not a Leaver construct, and I have to say on the couple of occasions I have seen a Spitfire in flight it has brought a slight lump to my throat, and I am not a Brexiter.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,683
    ydoethur said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    'Ok guys, jus' spitballing here, but what if we try tunnels again, only in a different place?'

    'Genius, trebles all round!'





    Great! They work in Norway and the Faroes. Once again the UK is backwards when it comes to infrastructure.
    How many Islands?.... How many tunnels?

    Compared to a few ferries now and again?

    Tunnels are always going to be better than ferries, due to not having to worry about the weather. Which is why the Greenwich foot tunnel was built during the reign of Queen Victoria.

    I don't see any particular reason why the Orkney and Shetland Islands shouldn't follow the Faroes in having tunnels between some of the islands.
    I'd say that the people suggesting it are short term political kite flyers rather than strategic planners, so a good reason for it almost definitely not happening (though not a bad idea per se).
    Makes fair sense for the Shetland main island axis; though one would want to check how deeply glaciated the lateral troughs were. Orkney is more scattered, and the Churchill Barriers already connect the main ring around Scapa, apart from Hoy. A tunnel to the mainland would make some sense, esp if from Hoy to Thurso (and back to Stromness). But I don't think the UK boosters are really thinking: rail tunnels across the Dornoch Firth, Cromarty Firth (from Invergordon) and Kessock Narrows would be a huge improvement all round.
    For that matter a rail tunnel under the Firth of Forth to relieve capacity and fatigue loading on the Forth Bridge. There will have been enough studies done for the Queensferry Crossing, and as the Scots generally seem to deliver most such projects on time and within budget (rail electrification, Q. Crossing) in marked contrast to the DfT, it could be quite promising.
    Shame about the ferries...
    Quite, but dont' forget they are the ones you hear about because CArlotta et al don't like to talk about the successes. A reading of Modern Railways is quite the corrective - the general sentiment is one of not taking hostages, and the DfT seem to score almost as low as Mr Ross at ConHome, but devolution per se isn't a reason to hold fire, and the Welsh Gmt have had some flak. But the general feeling is that at least the Scottish Gmt wants and likes railways and takes them seriously ...
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,683
    IshmaelZ said:

    Carnyx said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Carnyx said:

    kle4 said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    https://twitter.com/JAHeale/status/1531189521978728448

    Prime Minister Boris Johnson now the least popular member of his own Cabinet among the Tory grassroots h/t @ConHome

    Boris Johnson, winning again!

    He will be announcing an order for Spitfires for the RAF next :D:D
    The RAF already finds it absolutely necessary to operate six (and two Hurricanes).
    Probably get more consistent use out of them than much of our kit?
    The FAA have closed down their equivalent of the Battle of Britain Memorial Flight (more exactly, handed it over to a charitable trust AIUI). Their priorities are correct ...
    After that twonk who took out 11 people at Shoreham i'd prefer these things to be maintained and flown by the Air Force, or not at all
    Fair enough; but it is a secondary question. The first is, is it the job of the Raff to defend the kingdom or is it to give Brexiters wet underwear?
    Well, it's also the job of the army to troop the Colour and the Navy to fire 87 gun salutes for HMQ. Soft power innit. The BoB was an actual thing, not a Leaver construct, and I have to say on the couple of occasions I have seen a Spitfire in flight it has brought a slight lump to my throat, and I am not a Brexiter.
    Actually, on second thoughts, it'd make more sense to keep a few Spits (and a Hurrican and Lancaster) than the Red Arrows, given the cost of training fast jet pilots and the increasing proportion of that part of the Raff the Arrows occupy.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    IshmaelZ said:

    Nigelb said:

    .

    Dura_Ace said:

    ydoethur said:

    Farooq said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Cicero said:



    There are now over 40,000 refugees here, and this is, please remember, in a population of only 1.3 million. The fact that Britain is still imposing visa restrictions in a piecemeal and incompetent way so that essentially only family members of those Ukrainian citizens already in the country are being let in, means the total number of actual refugeesnin Britain is barely more than Estonia, for a country more than 50 times the size.

    We recently had the first and apparently only visit from Social Services to make sure we aren't mistreating "our" Ukrainians. They were fucking hopeless and the Ukrainians found it very unsettling assuming it to be a visit from our version of the KGB. Which, in a sense, it was.
    Interesting. Do you think there are any ways in which social services and the KGB are different?
    Social services still exist, the KGB don't.

    The KGB had some high profile successes as well as clusterfucks. Social services tend only to manage the latter (for 'high profile' cases).
    This was a clusterfuck.

    They insisted on having their own translator on the phone despite being told many times this wasn't necessary. The translator was fucking terrible and not translating accurately. One of the first things they said was something on the lines of, "We've have to make sure you wouldn't be better off somewhere else". This caused both Ukrainians to start weeping volubly. At this point I thought Mrs DA was going to ask to borrow my Ruger 10/22 and I was going to have to spend all night digging shallow graves in the woods.
    Shallow is usually a mistake, I think ?
    It's easy to sneer, but have you seen how deep a proper grave is? Just not achievable by one man in one night which is the time usually allowed
    I once saw an otherwise risible Liam Neeson “angry old man takes out baddies” movie where he recommended wrapping bodies in chicken wire before dumping them in water so the fish could get at them….struck me as a useful tip…
    In Order of Disappearance. It is very good, as is the Norwegian original.

    even if it wasn't, deserves Oscar for Best Title.
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 8,661

    Selebian said:

    Cicero said:

    The response to this is "restore Imperial measurements". In otherwords, impose further costs on the UK economy for no economic gain whatsoever. Basically no one under the age of 60 has been taught the rules of the Imperial system, it is the kind of nostalgia that allows people in the their fifties to talk about the Second World War as though they had anything to do with it. This is a government that thinks going back to the 70s or even the 50s is the solution to their political ills.

    Britian has got to escape this absurdity. The nostalgia trap will see us relegated to the lowest economic leagues. The fact that Johnson is doing it to try to save his own worthless political life is simply contemptible.

    Allowing imperial measurements doesn't impose any costs at all because nobody is obliged to use them if they don't want to.

    What's absurd is not giving up on imposing metric conformity but the hysterical reactions of people who engage in this kind of national psychoanalysis. What you're doing is not all that far removed from Maria Zakharova condemning Ukraine for wanting to claim borscht for itself.
    It shouldn't be difficult with the aid of computers to provide prices in both sets of measures if people wish.

    Then customers can use the set of measures that most suit them.
    It's just change for the sake of change. Which is what the left were accused of, once upon a time.
    I sincerely hope. they won't suggest it for medicine. That really would be 'cat, meet some pigeons!'
    Nurse! 1/2800oz of morphine, now, please!

    What could possibly go wrong?
    Haven't there been incidents with the metric system where mg and μg have been confused? I think μg is banned as a notation in some parts.

    Relying on a prefix makes it easier to get wrong. Particularly when the two prefixes are just the same letter in different languages.

    Not that I would advocate for grains as an alternative.
    There's nothing doctors can't cock up :wink:
  • ApplicantApplicant Posts: 3,379
    Carnyx said:

    Applicant said:

    Carnyx said:

    Farooq said:

    'Ok guys, jus' spitballing here, but what if we try tunnels again, only in a different place?'

    'Genius, trebles all round!'





    Great! They work in Norway and the Faroes. Once again the UK is backwards when it comes to infrastructure.
    How many Islands?.... How many tunnels?

    Compared to a few ferries now and again?

    Tunnels are always going to be better than ferries, due to not having to worry about the weather. Which is why the Greenwich foot tunnel was built during the reign of Queen Victoria.

    I don't see any particular reason why the Orkney and Shetland Islands shouldn't follow the Faroes in having tunnels between some of the islands.
    There's a tunnel in Greenwich that's only 30cm long?
    Rotherhithe tunnel was earlier IIRC. Brunel sen and jun innit.
    I've walked through the Greenwich and Woolwich tunnels. Not Rotherhithe, yet.

    https://www.ianvisits.co.uk/articles/walking-through-a-tunnel-under-the-thames-part-1-11764/
    Only done Greenwich!

    IIRC Rotherhithe might be tricky to walk through without being fried by accident. It was converted to a Tube line at some point, though I've been on the train through it. Not sure about current situation with all the changes.
    Woolwich is longer and more boring and doesn't even go anywhere useful on the north side now, after they closed North Woolwich station. I'm not sure how much use it gets any more, it's been made pretty much redundant by the DLR I would think.
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 8,661
    ydoethur said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    'Ok guys, jus' spitballing here, but what if we try tunnels again, only in a different place?'

    'Genius, trebles all round!'





    Great! They work in Norway and the Faroes. Once again the UK is backwards when it comes to infrastructure.
    How many Islands?.... How many tunnels?

    Compared to a few ferries now and again?

    Tunnels are always going to be better than ferries, due to not having to worry about the weather. Which is why the Greenwich foot tunnel was built during the reign of Queen Victoria.

    I don't see any particular reason why the Orkney and Shetland Islands shouldn't follow the Faroes in having tunnels between some of the islands.
    I'd say that the people suggesting it are short term political kite flyers rather than strategic planners, so a good reason for it almost definitely not happening (though not a bad idea per se).
    Makes fair sense for the Shetland main island axis; though one would want to check how deeply glaciated the lateral troughs were. Orkney is more scattered, and the Churchill Barriers already connect the main ring around Scapa, apart from Hoy. A tunnel to the mainland would make some sense, esp if from Hoy to Thurso (and back to Stromness). But I don't think the UK boosters are really thinking: rail tunnels across the Dornoch Firth, Cromarty Firth (from Invergordon) and Kessock Narrows would be a huge improvement all round.
    For that matter a rail tunnel under the Firth of Forth to relieve capacity and fatigue loading on the Forth Bridge. There will have been enough studies done for the Queensferry Crossing, and as the Scots generally seem to deliver most such projects on time and within budget (rail electrification, Q. Crossing) in marked contrast to the DfT, it could be quite promising.
    Shame about the ferries...
    Good argument to find an alternative to commissioning more ferries, to be fair :wink:
  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 8,163
    edited May 2022
    Re: tunnels

    Firstly, can someone kindly explain to the hard of thinking that tunnels costing billions are not a better idea than a few ferries costing millions and paid for by private companies like Stena?

    Secondly, a live WW1 grenade has washed up on a beach in Belfast Lough. The nearest ammo dump is Beauforts Dyke (nearly 1000ft deep) 30 miles to the east. There is supposed to be about 1 million tonnes of unexploded ordinance down there. A few years back it was mustard gas washing up...

    That is the location of the proposed Boris bridge / tunnel

    https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/ww1-grenade-found-by-child-on-co-down-beach-capable-of-exploding-41700008.html
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,735
    Carnyx said:

    Applicant said:

    Carnyx said:

    Farooq said:

    'Ok guys, jus' spitballing here, but what if we try tunnels again, only in a different place?'

    'Genius, trebles all round!'





    Great! They work in Norway and the Faroes. Once again the UK is backwards when it comes to infrastructure.
    How many Islands?.... How many tunnels?

    Compared to a few ferries now and again?

    Tunnels are always going to be better than ferries, due to not having to worry about the weather. Which is why the Greenwich foot tunnel was built during the reign of Queen Victoria.

    I don't see any particular reason why the Orkney and Shetland Islands shouldn't follow the Faroes in having tunnels between some of the islands.
    There's a tunnel in Greenwich that's only 30cm long?
    Rotherhithe tunnel was earlier IIRC. Brunel sen and jun innit.
    I've walked through the Greenwich and Woolwich tunnels. Not Rotherhithe, yet.

    https://www.ianvisits.co.uk/articles/walking-through-a-tunnel-under-the-thames-part-1-11764/
    Only done Greenwich!

    IIRC Rotherhithe might be tricky to walk through without being fried by accident. It was converted to a Tube line at some point, though I've been on the train through it. Not sure about current situation with all the changes.
    Rotherhithe is still a road tunnel, and unlike Blackwall you can still walk through it although the air quality must be awful and I've never seen anyone crazy enough to try. It's the much earlier tunnel built by Brunel that has been converted to rail use (formerly East London line, now the Overground) - although this tunnel also crosses at Rotherhithe.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 62,873

    Some old nonsense just came through on Twitter. Is it true that Johnson went pro- Leave because the Telegraph threatened to remove his £275,000 pa hobble if he did not?

    So the cost of Brexit was £275,000 pa. Let's put that on the side of a bus.

    Conservative MPs get rid of this appalling man.

    I want Boris gone, but not because of Brexit, or covid which he was ahead of the game opening the economy, or indeed Ukraine where he has at least supported Ukraine while Germany and France prevaricate

    I want him out for partygate and his arrogance in putting his mps and his party in disarray for his own selfish ego

    Conservative mps just have to remove him
  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 7,172

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Is it me or is the daily MOD brief on Ukraine becoming lost in the realms of wishful thinking?

    https://twitter.com/DefenceHQ/status/1531143716840284161?s=20&t=FIwr0IRFqeu7iJ3RTVZDBQ

    It starts with:
    "Russia has likely suffered devastating losses amongst its mid and junior ranking officers..."

    Whereas all the new outlets are indicating Russian progress, sadly, e.g. the BBC's "Heavy fighting as Russia advances into key eastern city".

    No - both things you quote above are true.
    Russia is taking territory, but slowly, and at great cost.

    Ukraine claimed several T62s destroyed yesterday, so it seems Russia is genuinely reduced to throwing in obsolete replacements for their lost equipment.

    They still have significantly superior artillery (in numbers, certainly), but recent and ongoing deliveries to Ukraine are beginning to redress the balance.
    For now there's no real sign of Ukraine's resolve to fight weakening.
    I remember the Korean War. The North attacked, drove the South and the Americans almost out of the peninsula. Then the Americans, ourselves and the South landed behind the Northern lines and they were driven back almost to the Chinese border.
    Then the Chinese joined in and everyone ended up pretty well where they'd started.
    That was a very different war, though, as it was as much, if not more a civil war as it was a contest between the west and Russia/China. True, the north invaded the south, but the post WWII division of the country was imposed rather than natural, and there were massive numbers of Koreans in both north and south opposed to the regimes they lived under.
    As to your last point, that might be true of the border - it certainly isn't true of the people, as there were huge displacement of population in both directions.

    Ukraine, in contrast is quite simply an invasion by a hostile power.
    To be honest, Mr B, I think we're both over-simplifying. AIUI, all the Koreans wanted after 1945 was to be left alone to rebuild their nation after 50 or so years of Japanese colonisation. And Kim (whatever he was) and the S Korean leader were close to being very much the same.
    Agree about the border, but I don't think many moved North.

    In Ukraine there are some at least who still consider themselves Russian.
    The conflict certainly has elements of a Civil War about it, as there are many families who have members in Russia and in Ukraine.

    It just makes it all the sadder, and shows what a terrible tragedy this is for both Russia and Ukraine.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,735
    Pissing it down suddenly.

    If we do get rationed electricity then shutting down those gas and coal power stations isn't going to look very smart.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,718
    Carnyx said:

    Applicant said:

    Carnyx said:

    Farooq said:

    'Ok guys, jus' spitballing here, but what if we try tunnels again, only in a different place?'

    'Genius, trebles all round!'





    Great! They work in Norway and the Faroes. Once again the UK is backwards when it comes to infrastructure.
    How many Islands?.... How many tunnels?

    Compared to a few ferries now and again?

    Tunnels are always going to be better than ferries, due to not having to worry about the weather. Which is why the Greenwich foot tunnel was built during the reign of Queen Victoria.

    I don't see any particular reason why the Orkney and Shetland Islands shouldn't follow the Faroes in having tunnels between some of the islands.
    There's a tunnel in Greenwich that's only 30cm long?
    Rotherhithe tunnel was earlier IIRC. Brunel sen and jun innit.
    I've walked through the Greenwich and Woolwich tunnels. Not Rotherhithe, yet.

    https://www.ianvisits.co.uk/articles/walking-through-a-tunnel-under-the-thames-part-1-11764/
    Only done Greenwich!

    IIRC Rotherhithe might be tricky to walk through without being fried by accident. It was converted to a Tube line at some point, though I've been on the train through it. Not sure about current situation with all the changes.
    The air quality is terrible, driving with windows open would make me feel ill, so it would be a terrible place to walk. I have seen the odd pedestrian but that is probably once every 50 trips. Cyclists are also fairly rare but a disaster to traffic flow as the exits are longish and uphill and nowhere to overtake them so one cyclist will add several minutes to a couple of hundred cars.
  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 8,163
    IshmaelZ said:

    Applicant said:

    I am glad from a political view that Labour now seem to have a popular view on the whole trans debate but I am going to be totally honest when I say, it doesn't impact how I vote and I don't know anyone else who it does either.

    I can't believe there is somebody that goes, that CoL crisis is terrible and I am struggling to eat but those trans policies are a bridge too far, Tory for me. Am I wrong?

    Ah, I see you're missing the point of the focus on the inability or unwillingness to define a woman.
    More that you are missing the point that aside from the hyper partisan and the political zealots nobody else cares.

    Its a fascinating bit of political bubble projection that people may be made poorer and may be fed up with the government's massive failings but can't vote Labour because of something one of them said about what a woman us.

    Politics was much more fun when the grown ups were on both sides. Could have genuine policy debates. Now its more like having to explain to the other side very excited by lady cocks that their issue is very small and the voters are far away.
    I’m not sure telling them they are “very small” is the best choice of phrase
    Yeah, is he saying that lady dicks are not as big as mens'?

    reactionary bilge.
    Nothing reactionary about it. A clitoris is definitely smaller than a penis...
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    My latest is on shift in mood on the war. Russia advancing. Ukrainians nervous about western support. West looking more divided and uncertain. But - big picture - things still going really badly for Putin. West needs to keep its nerve and concentration

    https://twitter.com/gideonrachman/status/1531221980929789953
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 62,873
    So the French are blaming the Liverpool supporters
  • ApplicantApplicant Posts: 3,379

    Carnyx said:

    Applicant said:

    Carnyx said:

    Farooq said:

    'Ok guys, jus' spitballing here, but what if we try tunnels again, only in a different place?'

    'Genius, trebles all round!'





    Great! They work in Norway and the Faroes. Once again the UK is backwards when it comes to infrastructure.
    How many Islands?.... How many tunnels?

    Compared to a few ferries now and again?

    Tunnels are always going to be better than ferries, due to not having to worry about the weather. Which is why the Greenwich foot tunnel was built during the reign of Queen Victoria.

    I don't see any particular reason why the Orkney and Shetland Islands shouldn't follow the Faroes in having tunnels between some of the islands.
    There's a tunnel in Greenwich that's only 30cm long?
    Rotherhithe tunnel was earlier IIRC. Brunel sen and jun innit.
    I've walked through the Greenwich and Woolwich tunnels. Not Rotherhithe, yet.

    https://www.ianvisits.co.uk/articles/walking-through-a-tunnel-under-the-thames-part-1-11764/
    Only done Greenwich!

    IIRC Rotherhithe might be tricky to walk through without being fried by accident. It was converted to a Tube line at some point, though I've been on the train through it. Not sure about current situation with all the changes.
    The air quality is terrible, driving with windows open would make me feel ill, so it would be a terrible place to walk. I have seen the odd pedestrian but that is probably once every 50 trips. Cyclists are also fairly rare but a disaster to traffic flow as the exits are longish and uphill and nowhere to overtake them so one cyclist will add several minutes to a couple of hundred cars.
    The Rotherhithe tunnel is one place where cyclists should definitely be on the pavement.
  • ApplicantApplicant Posts: 3,379

    So the French are blaming the Liverpool supporters

    MRDA...
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,707

    So the French are blaming the Liverpool supporters

    The French and quite a few on pb are blaming the Liverpool supporters.
  • BurgessianBurgessian Posts: 2,739
    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    'Ok guys, jus' spitballing here, but what if we try tunnels again, only in a different place?'

    'Genius, trebles all round!'





    Great! They work in Norway and the Faroes. Once again the UK is backwards when it comes to infrastructure.
    How many Islands?.... How many tunnels?

    Compared to a few ferries now and again?

    Tunnels are always going to be better than ferries, due to not having to worry about the weather. Which is why the Greenwich foot tunnel was built during the reign of Queen Victoria.

    I don't see any particular reason why the Orkney and Shetland Islands shouldn't follow the Faroes in having tunnels between some of the islands.
    I'd say that the people suggesting it are short term political kite flyers rather than strategic planners, so a good reason for it almost definitely not happening (though not a bad idea per se).
    Makes fair sense for the Shetland main island axis; though one would want to check how deeply glaciated the lateral troughs were. Orkney is more scattered, and the Churchill Barriers already connect the main ring around Scapa, apart from Hoy. A tunnel to the mainland would make some sense, esp if from Hoy to Thurso (and back to Stromness). But I don't think the UK boosters are really thinking: rail tunnels across the Dornoch Firth, Cromarty Firth (from Invergordon) and Kessock Narrows would be a huge improvement all round.
    For that matter a rail tunnel under the Firth of Forth to relieve capacity and fatigue loading on the Forth Bridge. There will have been enough studies done for the Queensferry Crossing, and as the Scots generally seem to deliver most such projects on time and within budget (rail electrification, Q. Crossing) in marked contrast to the DfT, it could be quite promising.
    "and as the Scots generally seem to deliver most such projects on time and within budget"

    The unfinished ferries at Ferguson's say "hi".
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,011

    Cicero said:

    The response to this is "restore Imperial measurements". In otherwords, impose further costs on the UK economy for no economic gain whatsoever. Basically no one under the age of 60 has been taught the rules of the Imperial system, it is the kind of nostalgia that allows people in the their fifties to talk about the Second World War as though they had anything to do with it. This is a government that thinks going back to the 70s or even the 50s is the solution to their political ills.

    Britian has got to escape this absurdity. The nostalgia trap will see us relegated to the lowest economic leagues. The fact that Johnson is doing it to try to save his own worthless political life is simply contemptible.

    Allowing imperial measurements doesn't impose any costs at all because nobody is obliged to use them if they don't want to.

    What's absurd is not giving up on imposing metric conformity but the hysterical reactions of people who engage in this kind of national psychoanalysis. What you're doing is not all that far removed from Maria Zakharova condemning Ukraine for wanting to claim borscht for itself.
    What is absurd is banging on about it as though it is an important subject for government to intervene on, but that is what populist apologists for Johnson are doing.
    TBOBS - "Tangible Benefits of Brexit" - are so thin on the ground, though, that one has to take what one can get. In this case the visceral thrill of being able to buy a pound of King Edwards.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,683

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    'Ok guys, jus' spitballing here, but what if we try tunnels again, only in a different place?'

    'Genius, trebles all round!'





    Great! They work in Norway and the Faroes. Once again the UK is backwards when it comes to infrastructure.
    How many Islands?.... How many tunnels?

    Compared to a few ferries now and again?

    Tunnels are always going to be better than ferries, due to not having to worry about the weather. Which is why the Greenwich foot tunnel was built during the reign of Queen Victoria.

    I don't see any particular reason why the Orkney and Shetland Islands shouldn't follow the Faroes in having tunnels between some of the islands.
    I'd say that the people suggesting it are short term political kite flyers rather than strategic planners, so a good reason for it almost definitely not happening (though not a bad idea per se).
    Makes fair sense for the Shetland main island axis; though one would want to check how deeply glaciated the lateral troughs were. Orkney is more scattered, and the Churchill Barriers already connect the main ring around Scapa, apart from Hoy. A tunnel to the mainland would make some sense, esp if from Hoy to Thurso (and back to Stromness). But I don't think the UK boosters are really thinking: rail tunnels across the Dornoch Firth, Cromarty Firth (from Invergordon) and Kessock Narrows would be a huge improvement all round.
    For that matter a rail tunnel under the Firth of Forth to relieve capacity and fatigue loading on the Forth Bridge. There will have been enough studies done for the Queensferry Crossing, and as the Scots generally seem to deliver most such projects on time and within budget (rail electrification, Q. Crossing) in marked contrast to the DfT, it could be quite promising.
    "and as the Scots generally seem to deliver most such projects on time and within budget"

    The unfinished ferries at Ferguson's say "hi".
    I said 'most'.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 62,873
    edited May 2022

    So the French are blaming the Liverpool supporters

    The French and quite a few on pb are blaming the Liverpool supporters.
    I saw nothing yesterday to suggest Liverpool supporters behaved badly and remember I have been a Man Utd supporter for near 70 years
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,270

    IshmaelZ said:

    Applicant said:

    I am glad from a political view that Labour now seem to have a popular view on the whole trans debate but I am going to be totally honest when I say, it doesn't impact how I vote and I don't know anyone else who it does either.

    I can't believe there is somebody that goes, that CoL crisis is terrible and I am struggling to eat but those trans policies are a bridge too far, Tory for me. Am I wrong?

    Ah, I see you're missing the point of the focus on the inability or unwillingness to define a woman.
    More that you are missing the point that aside from the hyper partisan and the political zealots nobody else cares.

    Its a fascinating bit of political bubble projection that people may be made poorer and may be fed up with the government's massive failings but can't vote Labour because of something one of them said about what a woman us.

    Politics was much more fun when the grown ups were on both sides. Could have genuine policy debates. Now its more like having to explain to the other side very excited by lady cocks that their issue is very small and the voters are far away.
    I’m not sure telling them they are “very small” is the best choice of phrase
    Yeah, is he saying that lady dicks are not as big as mens'?

    reactionary bilge.
    Nothing reactionary about it. A clitoris is definitely smaller than a penis...
    It is this kind of educational detail that draws us to PB.
  • FlatlanderFlatlander Posts: 4,622
    edited May 2022
    Carnyx said:

    'Ok guys, jus' spitballing here, but what if we try tunnels again, only in a different place?'

    'Genius, trebles all round!'





    Well at least they seem to have rejected overwater tunnels.
    Or 'almost but not quite breaking the surface' tunnels, which seemed to be mooted for the Johnson Crossing to NI at one time.
    The Conwy tunnel was sunk from the surface (an "immersed tube" as it is called officially), although admittedly the bottom is not 300m down...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zp3iBQKxk3g
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,922
    The 60 Conservative MPs most at risk of losing their seat to Labour - many of whom represent 'red wall' seats - are strikingly more loyal to Johnson. Will this change if Labour win the Wakefield by-election? https://twitter.com/joe_armitage/status/1531233048779493378/photo/1
  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 8,163
    edited May 2022

    Pissing it down suddenly.

    If we do get rationed electricity then shutting down those gas and coal power stations isn't going to look very smart.

    In that case I think we can expect Boris's lot to do it because "not very smart" is something they are actually good at ;)
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,455

    So the French are blaming the Liverpool supporters

    The French and quite a few on pb are blaming the Liverpool supporters.
    I’ll go with Mr @TheScreamingEagles and his story. He’s not really your average football fan, was there with the prawn sandwich brigade and arrived in plenty of time to collect tickets and enter the ground. Yet still came across a lot of trouble, that appeared to be mostly the result of poor organisation and policing rather than behaviour of fans.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,718

    Re: tunnels

    Firstly, can someone kindly explain to the hard of thinking that tunnels costing billions are not a better idea than a few ferries costing millions and paid for by private companies like Stena?

    Secondly, a live WW1 grenade has washed up on a beach in Belfast Lough. The nearest ammo dump is Beauforts Dyke (nearly 1000ft deep) 30 miles to the east. There is supposed to be about 1 million tonnes of unexploded ordinance down there. A few years back it was mustard gas washing up...

    That is the location of the proposed Boris bridge / tunnel

    https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/ww1-grenade-found-by-child-on-co-down-beach-capable-of-exploding-41700008.html

    Do ferry routes get named after attention seeking politicians?
  • BurgessianBurgessian Posts: 2,739
    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    'Ok guys, jus' spitballing here, but what if we try tunnels again, only in a different place?'

    'Genius, trebles all round!'





    Great! They work in Norway and the Faroes. Once again the UK is backwards when it comes to infrastructure.
    How many Islands?.... How many tunnels?

    Compared to a few ferries now and again?

    Tunnels are always going to be better than ferries, due to not having to worry about the weather. Which is why the Greenwich foot tunnel was built during the reign of Queen Victoria.

    I don't see any particular reason why the Orkney and Shetland Islands shouldn't follow the Faroes in having tunnels between some of the islands.
    I'd say that the people suggesting it are short term political kite flyers rather than strategic planners, so a good reason for it almost definitely not happening (though not a bad idea per se).
    Makes fair sense for the Shetland main island axis; though one would want to check how deeply glaciated the lateral troughs were. Orkney is more scattered, and the Churchill Barriers already connect the main ring around Scapa, apart from Hoy. A tunnel to the mainland would make some sense, esp if from Hoy to Thurso (and back to Stromness). But I don't think the UK boosters are really thinking: rail tunnels across the Dornoch Firth, Cromarty Firth (from Invergordon) and Kessock Narrows would be a huge improvement all round.
    For that matter a rail tunnel under the Firth of Forth to relieve capacity and fatigue loading on the Forth Bridge. There will have been enough studies done for the Queensferry Crossing, and as the Scots generally seem to deliver most such projects on time and within budget (rail electrification, Q. Crossing) in marked contrast to the DfT, it could be quite promising.
    "and as the Scots generally seem to deliver most such projects on time and within budget"

    The unfinished ferries at Ferguson's say "hi".
    I said 'most'.
    True. But "most" is working pretty hard!

    Especially given the roads. (I believe the project to dual the A96 from Inverness to Aberdeen has been scrapped despite millions spent on consultancy and prep.)

  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 62,873

    Carnyx said:

    'Ok guys, jus' spitballing here, but what if we try tunnels again, only in a different place?'

    'Genius, trebles all round!'





    Well at least they seem to have rejected overwater tunnels.
    Or 'almost but not quite breaking the surface' tunnels, which seemed to be mooted for the Johnson Crossing to NI at one time.
    The Conwy tunnel was sunk from the surface (an "immersed tube" as it is called officially), although admittedly the bottom is not 300m down...
    I remember being at a meeting when the construction of the Conwy tunnel was being discussed, and a member of the public asked why the tubes would not just float up to the surface of the river

    The engineer spoke at great length to explain why this was impossible, while everyone else buried their head in their hands
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677

    So the French are blaming the Liverpool supporters

    The French and quite a few on pb are blaming the Liverpool supporters.
    I saw nothing yesterday to suggest Liverpool supporters behaved badly and remember I have been a Man Utd supporter for near 70 years
    I've go to say I've always found Liverpool supporters to be fairly genial. Nothing like, say, going to Oldham or Birmingham City where you get the impression that'd they definitely kick the snot of you given half a chance.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    So the French are blaming the Liverpool supporters

    Not just the French

    you want to justify Klopp telling the cokeheads to go to Paris without tickets?
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    THREAD: We're urging Scotland fans to plan ahead for Wednesday's match against Ukraine, with our temporary timetable still in place……

    The temporary timetable means fewer options for fans going to/from Glasgow before & after the game.

    The last train to Edinburgh from Glasgow Queen St is 2215, on which those attending the match will be unable to travel.


    https://twitter.com/ScotRail/status/1531232092662779905
  • El_CapitanoEl_Capitano Posts: 4,238


    Joe Armitage
    @joe_armitage
    The 39 Conservative MPs most at risk of losing their seats to the Lib Dems at the next election pose the greatest risk to Johnson. 7 have already submitted letters of no confidence and a lot are wavering.

    https://twitter.com/joe_armitage/status/1531170019006201856

    I would not be entirely astonished to see Caroline Nokes jump to the Lib Dems.
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,673

    Some old nonsense just came through on Twitter. Is it true that Johnson went pro- Leave because the Telegraph threatened to remove his £275,000 pa hobble if he did not?

    So the cost of Brexit was £275,000 pa. Let's put that on the side of a bus.

    Conservative MPs get rid of this appalling man.

    Interesting if true. It might be that the famous two articles were actually an earlier and later draft. Boris submitted the Remain version, but then his masters at the Telegraph told him 'If you think we're publishing this crap you've got another thing coming. Do it again.' It certainly doesn't seem beyond the realms of possibility.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    IshmaelZ said:

    Applicant said:

    I am glad from a political view that Labour now seem to have a popular view on the whole trans debate but I am going to be totally honest when I say, it doesn't impact how I vote and I don't know anyone else who it does either.

    I can't believe there is somebody that goes, that CoL crisis is terrible and I am struggling to eat but those trans policies are a bridge too far, Tory for me. Am I wrong?

    Ah, I see you're missing the point of the focus on the inability or unwillingness to define a woman.
    More that you are missing the point that aside from the hyper partisan and the political zealots nobody else cares.

    Its a fascinating bit of political bubble projection that people may be made poorer and may be fed up with the government's massive failings but can't vote Labour because of something one of them said about what a woman us.

    Politics was much more fun when the grown ups were on both sides. Could have genuine policy debates. Now its more like having to explain to the other side very excited by lady cocks that their issue is very small and the voters are far away.
    I’m not sure telling them they are “very small” is the best choice of phrase
    Yeah, is he saying that lady dicks are not as big as mens'?

    reactionary bilge.
    Nothing reactionary about it. A clitoris is definitely smaller than a penis...
    I'll PM you a nude selfie...
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,735
    Mrs C, you're right that Johnson is an imbecile but bad energy policy has happened under three parties. I still remember a year or two ago we had micro-breaks in power supply, which was just fantastic for me (working online).
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,270

    Some old nonsense just came through on Twitter. Is it true that Johnson went pro- Leave because the Telegraph threatened to remove his £275,000 pa hobble if he did not?

    So the cost of Brexit was £275,000 pa. Let's put that on the side of a bus.

    Conservative MPs get rid of this appalling man.

    I want Boris gone, but not because of Brexit, or covid which he was ahead of the game opening the economy, or indeed Ukraine where he has at least supported Ukraine while Germany and France prevaricate

    I want him out for partygate and his arrogance in putting his mps and his party in disarray for his own selfish ego

    Conservative mps just have to remove him
    The point being made was that Johnson instinctively went with the Leave side, not because he believed it to be in the UK's interests but to save his £275,000 sideline.

    I would question both your Covid (except for the swift roll out of vaccines) and Ukraine analysis. For the large part I would put both down to spin.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,908
    kinabalu said:

    Cicero said:

    The response to this is "restore Imperial measurements". In otherwords, impose further costs on the UK economy for no economic gain whatsoever. Basically no one under the age of 60 has been taught the rules of the Imperial system, it is the kind of nostalgia that allows people in the their fifties to talk about the Second World War as though they had anything to do with it. This is a government that thinks going back to the 70s or even the 50s is the solution to their political ills.

    Britian has got to escape this absurdity. The nostalgia trap will see us relegated to the lowest economic leagues. The fact that Johnson is doing it to try to save his own worthless political life is simply contemptible.

    Allowing imperial measurements doesn't impose any costs at all because nobody is obliged to use them if they don't want to.

    What's absurd is not giving up on imposing metric conformity but the hysterical reactions of people who engage in this kind of national psychoanalysis. What you're doing is not all that far removed from Maria Zakharova condemning Ukraine for wanting to claim borscht for itself.
    What is absurd is banging on about it as though it is an important subject for government to intervene on, but that is what populist apologists for Johnson are doing.
    TBOBS - "Tangible Benefits of Brexit" - are so thin on the ground, though, that one has to take what one can get. In this case the visceral thrill of being able to buy a pound of King Edwards.
    Ah, but it's the IBOBS that count. The Intangible Benefits of Brexit

    Being a free man in a free country. Walking tall, like an American citizen in 1779, inhaling the pure forest air of independence.

    We now own our mistakes. Boris Johnson might well be one of them. So we hurl him out of office. We cannot do that to Ursula of the Lying, the Unilateral Imposer of Article 16, but we don't have to worry any more, she has no power over us. We are free

    In time, Intangible Benefits like Freedom and Independence tend to turn into Tangible Benefits. But it can take a while (Ireland took at least sixty years), so: brace
  • PensfoldPensfold Posts: 191


    Joe Armitage
    @joe_armitage
    The 39 Conservative MPs most at risk of losing their seats to the Lib Dems at the next election pose the greatest risk to Johnson. 7 have already submitted letters of no confidence and a lot are wavering.

    https://twitter.com/joe_armitage/status/1531170019006201856

    I would not be entirely astonished to see Caroline Nokes jump to the Lib Dems.
    More likely jump to Labour than Lib Dem. She will have seen what happened to others who moved to Lib Dem and didn't get re-elected.
  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 8,163
    IshmaelZ said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Applicant said:

    I am glad from a political view that Labour now seem to have a popular view on the whole trans debate but I am going to be totally honest when I say, it doesn't impact how I vote and I don't know anyone else who it does either.

    I can't believe there is somebody that goes, that CoL crisis is terrible and I am struggling to eat but those trans policies are a bridge too far, Tory for me. Am I wrong?

    Ah, I see you're missing the point of the focus on the inability or unwillingness to define a woman.
    More that you are missing the point that aside from the hyper partisan and the political zealots nobody else cares.

    Its a fascinating bit of political bubble projection that people may be made poorer and may be fed up with the government's massive failings but can't vote Labour because of something one of them said about what a woman us.

    Politics was much more fun when the grown ups were on both sides. Could have genuine policy debates. Now its more like having to explain to the other side very excited by lady cocks that their issue is very small and the voters are far away.
    I’m not sure telling them they are “very small” is the best choice of phrase
    Yeah, is he saying that lady dicks are not as big as mens'?

    reactionary bilge.
    Nothing reactionary about it. A clitoris is definitely smaller than a penis...
    I'll PM you a nude selfie...
    No thank you!
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,454

    IshmaelZ said:

    Applicant said:

    I am glad from a political view that Labour now seem to have a popular view on the whole trans debate but I am going to be totally honest when I say, it doesn't impact how I vote and I don't know anyone else who it does either.

    I can't believe there is somebody that goes, that CoL crisis is terrible and I am struggling to eat but those trans policies are a bridge too far, Tory for me. Am I wrong?

    Ah, I see you're missing the point of the focus on the inability or unwillingness to define a woman.
    More that you are missing the point that aside from the hyper partisan and the political zealots nobody else cares.

    Its a fascinating bit of political bubble projection that people may be made poorer and may be fed up with the government's massive failings but can't vote Labour because of something one of them said about what a woman us.

    Politics was much more fun when the grown ups were on both sides. Could have genuine policy debates. Now its more like having to explain to the other side very excited by lady cocks that their issue is very small and the voters are far away.
    I’m not sure telling them they are “very small” is the best choice of phrase
    Yeah, is he saying that lady dicks are not as big as mens'?

    reactionary bilge.
    Nothing reactionary about it. A clitoris is definitely smaller than a penis...
    You think?

    "The bit of the clitoris that can be seen is about the size of a pea. However, in total, the clitoris can be as long as 5 inches (12 cm) long! Not sounding so small now, huh? While we’re on the subject of size, did you know that in early fetal development, the penis and the clitoris actually start out the same? They form into the different sexual organs around week nine of pregnancy."

    https://www.naturalcycles.com/cyclematters/5-facts-about-the-clitoris

    More feminist propaganda aimed at making those blokes who STILL can't find it all the worse about life....

    (Not that I was ever one of those blokes... 😉 )
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,152
    Scott_xP said:

    The 60 Conservative MPs most at risk of losing their seat to Labour - many of whom represent 'red wall' seats - are strikingly more loyal to Johnson. Will this change if Labour win the Wakefield by-election? https://twitter.com/joe_armitage/status/1531233048779493378/photo/1

    Unsurprising in a lot of ways. Without Brexit Boris, they have got good reason to think that they wouldn't have got over the line in 2019.

    Boris did that by telling them a pile of porkies, but he's still the best hope that MPs in Red Wall marginals have. And the longer they stick by their man, the sillier they would look if they dropped him.

    For some, the point of no return may have passed already.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    Mrs C, you're right that Johnson is an imbecile but bad energy policy has happened under three parties. I still remember a year or two ago we had micro-breaks in power supply, which was just fantastic for me (working online).

    And will continue. An uninterruptible power supply wouldn't be the worst investment you could make
  • JonWCJonWC Posts: 288

    Some old nonsense just came through on Twitter. Is it true that Johnson went pro- Leave because the Telegraph threatened to remove his £275,000 pa hobble if he did not?

    So the cost of Brexit was £275,000 pa. Let's put that on the side of a bus.

    Conservative MPs get rid of this appalling man.

    I want Boris gone, but not because of Brexit, or covid which he was ahead of the game opening the economy, or indeed Ukraine where he has at least supported Ukraine while Germany and France prevaricate

    I want him out for partygate and his arrogance in putting his mps and his party in disarray for his own selfish ego

    Conservative mps just have to remove him
    While I agree with this, I think even a fairly glancing blow at the vote of confidence will eventually finish Boris off. While he absolutely strikes me as the sort of man who would carry on Black Knight style if he won by a single vote, I think he cares about his place in history and would change his mind sooner or later to avoid the historic humiliation of either

    a) being removed in disgrace at a subsequent VOC after the local election annihilation next year;
    b) losing repeated votes in the HoC - after all he would clearly not have majority support there;
    c) losing his seat as the Tories get smashed at the next election.

    Nobody would want to hear chants of "Are you May in disguise?" Even Theresa May might be chanting that soon...
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 62,873

    Some old nonsense just came through on Twitter. Is it true that Johnson went pro- Leave because the Telegraph threatened to remove his £275,000 pa hobble if he did not?

    So the cost of Brexit was £275,000 pa. Let's put that on the side of a bus.

    Conservative MPs get rid of this appalling man.

    I want Boris gone, but not because of Brexit, or covid which he was ahead of the game opening the economy, or indeed Ukraine where he has at least supported Ukraine while Germany and France prevaricate

    I want him out for partygate and his arrogance in putting his mps and his party in disarray for his own selfish ego

    Conservative mps just have to remove him
    The point being made was that Johnson instinctively went with the Leave side, not because he believed it to be in the UK's interests but to save his £275,000 sideline.

    I would question both your Covid (except for the swift roll out of vaccines) and Ukraine analysis. For the large part I would put both down to spin.
    I would put it down to our different political outlook but we both agree he needs to go

    And the EU are yet again failing to agree on Russian sanctions apparently
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,535

    Jo Maugham
    @JolyonMaugham
    ·
    22h
    If anyone would care to share a copy of the unredacted Sue Gray report with us - our Threema is on our website - we will consider whether we can bring a private prosecution for misconduct in public office.

    https://twitter.com/JolyonMaugham/status/1530897762845437953
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,011

    Do Britons believe the Gov't is currently taking the right measures to address the cost-of-living crisis?

    Yes 16%
    No 70%

    Do Britons believe a Gov't led by the Labour Party would currently be taking the right measures to address the cost-of-living crisis?

    Yes 36%
    No 36%

    It would be interesting to see the entrails

    My guess is the answer for the Tories is most of their opponents plus a % of their voters (with opponents from both ends)say no.

    For Labour mist of their supporters will give them the benefit of the doubt

    In short I’m not sure this polling is particularly illuminating
    I'd maybe just see it as further evidence that Labour are closing off one of the big trad reasons they lose elections - not trusted on the economy cf the Cons.
  • BurgessianBurgessian Posts: 2,739


    Joe Armitage
    @joe_armitage
    The 39 Conservative MPs most at risk of losing their seats to the Lib Dems at the next election pose the greatest risk to Johnson. 7 have already submitted letters of no confidence and a lot are wavering.

    https://twitter.com/joe_armitage/status/1531170019006201856

    I would not be entirely astonished to see Caroline Nokes jump to the Lib Dems.
    She seems to loathe BJ. I remember seeing her questioning him at a Select Committee Chairs meeting about equality issues. Icy.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,707
    Sandpit said:

    So the French are blaming the Liverpool supporters

    The French and quite a few on pb are blaming the Liverpool supporters.
    I’ll go with Mr @TheScreamingEagles and his story. He’s not really your average football fan, was there with the prawn sandwich brigade and arrived in plenty of time to collect tickets and enter the ground. Yet still came across a lot of trouble, that appeared to be mostly the result of poor organisation and policing rather than behaviour of fans.
    Crucially, @TheScreamingEagles also reported that his bona-fide ticket was initially condemned as fake by French officials, so we should perhaps take with a further pinch of salt any claims of large numbers of tickets were counterfeit, even if some were.
  • ApplicantApplicant Posts: 3,379

    Some old nonsense just came through on Twitter. Is it true that Johnson went pro- Leave because the Telegraph threatened to remove his £275,000 pa hobble if he did not?

    So the cost of Brexit was £275,000 pa. Let's put that on the side of a bus.

    Conservative MPs get rid of this appalling man.

    Interesting if true. It might be that the famous two articles were actually an earlier and later draft. Boris submitted the Remain version, but then his masters at the Telegraph told him 'If you think we're publishing this crap you've got another thing coming. Do it again.' It certainly doesn't seem beyond the realms of possibility.
    Surely "he thought it was his best chance of becoming PM" is more likely?
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,893

    Some old nonsense just came through on Twitter. Is it true that Johnson went pro- Leave because the Telegraph threatened to remove his £275,000 pa hobble if he did not?

    So the cost of Brexit was £275,000 pa. Let's put that on the side of a bus.

    Conservative MPs get rid of this appalling man.

    I want Boris gone, but not because of Brexit, or covid which he was ahead of the game opening the economy, or indeed Ukraine where he has at least supported Ukraine while Germany and France prevaricate

    I want him out for partygate and his arrogance in putting his mps and his party in disarray for his own selfish ego

    Conservative mps just have to remove him
    The point being made was that Johnson instinctively went with the Leave side, not because he believed it to be in the UK's interests but to save his £275,000 sideline.

    I would question both your Covid (except for the swift roll out of vaccines) and Ukraine analysis. For the large part I would put both down to spin.
    You seem to have now accepted it as fact, but you had answered your own question in your original comment.
  • PensfoldPensfold Posts: 191

    THREAD: We're urging Scotland fans to plan ahead for Wednesday's match against Ukraine, with our temporary timetable still in place……

    The temporary timetable means fewer options for fans going to/from Glasgow before & after the game.

    The last train to Edinburgh from Glasgow Queen St is 2215, on which those attending the match will be unable to travel.


    https://twitter.com/ScotRail/status/1531232092662779905

    Young men not allowed to leave Ukraine so expect an all female Ukraine support in Glasgow for Uk versus Scotland.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,908

    So the French are blaming the Liverpool supporters

    The French and quite a few on pb are blaming the Liverpool supporters.
    I saw nothing yesterday to suggest Liverpool supporters behaved badly and remember I have been a Man Utd supporter for near 70 years
    Apart from the multiple videos of Liverpool fans climbing high fences and then sprinting into the stadium? Apart from them, then?
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,735
    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Cicero said:

    The response to this is "restore Imperial measurements". In otherwords, impose further costs on the UK economy for no economic gain whatsoever. Basically no one under the age of 60 has been taught the rules of the Imperial system, it is the kind of nostalgia that allows people in the their fifties to talk about the Second World War as though they had anything to do with it. This is a government that thinks going back to the 70s or even the 50s is the solution to their political ills.

    Britian has got to escape this absurdity. The nostalgia trap will see us relegated to the lowest economic leagues. The fact that Johnson is doing it to try to save his own worthless political life is simply contemptible.

    Allowing imperial measurements doesn't impose any costs at all because nobody is obliged to use them if they don't want to.

    What's absurd is not giving up on imposing metric conformity but the hysterical reactions of people who engage in this kind of national psychoanalysis. What you're doing is not all that far removed from Maria Zakharova condemning Ukraine for wanting to claim borscht for itself.
    What is absurd is banging on about it as though it is an important subject for government to intervene on, but that is what populist apologists for Johnson are doing.
    TBOBS - "Tangible Benefits of Brexit" - are so thin on the ground, though, that one has to take what one can get. In this case the visceral thrill of being able to buy a pound of King Edwards.
    Ah, but it's the IBOBS that count. The Intangible Benefits of Brexit

    Being a free man in a free country. Walking tall, like an American citizen in 1779, inhaling the pure forest air of independence.

    We now own our mistakes. Boris Johnson might well be one of them. So we hurl him out of office. We cannot do that to Ursula of the Lying, the Unilateral Imposer of Article 16, but we don't have to worry any more, she has no power over us. We are free

    In time, Intangible Benefits like Freedom and Independence tend to turn into Tangible Benefits. But it can take a while (Ireland took at least sixty years), so: brace
    That thing where you start out reading a contribution imagining it is satirical, and then about three quarters of the way through you realise that the poster is actually serious, and you check who posted it, and yes it is Leon.
  • PensfoldPensfold Posts: 191

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    'Ok guys, jus' spitballing here, but what if we try tunnels again, only in a different place?'

    'Genius, trebles all round!'





    Great! They work in Norway and the Faroes. Once again the UK is backwards when it comes to infrastructure.
    How many Islands?.... How many tunnels?

    Compared to a few ferries now and again?

    Tunnels are always going to be better than ferries, due to not having to worry about the weather. Which is why the Greenwich foot tunnel was built during the reign of Queen Victoria.

    I don't see any particular reason why the Orkney and Shetland Islands shouldn't follow the Faroes in having tunnels between some of the islands.
    I'd say that the people suggesting it are short term political kite flyers rather than strategic planners, so a good reason for it almost definitely not happening (though not a bad idea per se).
    Makes fair sense for the Shetland main island axis; though one would want to check how deeply glaciated the lateral troughs were. Orkney is more scattered, and the Churchill Barriers already connect the main ring around Scapa, apart from Hoy. A tunnel to the mainland would make some sense, esp if from Hoy to Thurso (and back to Stromness). But I don't think the UK boosters are really thinking: rail tunnels across the Dornoch Firth, Cromarty Firth (from Invergordon) and Kessock Narrows would be a huge improvement all round.
    For that matter a rail tunnel under the Firth of Forth to relieve capacity and fatigue loading on the Forth Bridge. There will have been enough studies done for the Queensferry Crossing, and as the Scots generally seem to deliver most such projects on time and within budget (rail electrification, Q. Crossing) in marked contrast to the DfT, it could be quite promising.
    "and as the Scots generally seem to deliver most such projects on time and within budget"

    The unfinished ferries at Ferguson's say "hi".
    As does the Scottish parliament building.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,011
    Dura_Ace said:

    So the French are blaming the Liverpool supporters

    The French and quite a few on pb are blaming the Liverpool supporters.
    I saw nothing yesterday to suggest Liverpool supporters behaved badly and remember I have been a Man Utd supporter for near 70 years
    I've go to say I've always found Liverpool supporters to be fairly genial. Nothing like, say, going to Oldham or Birmingham City where you get the impression that'd they definitely kick the snot of you given half a chance.
    Although in the Shankly era they pioneered the practice of pissing on the terraces. Per my dad. No link or anything peer reviewed.
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 14,289
    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Cicero said:

    The response to this is "restore Imperial measurements". In otherwords, impose further costs on the UK economy for no economic gain whatsoever. Basically no one under the age of 60 has been taught the rules of the Imperial system, it is the kind of nostalgia that allows people in the their fifties to talk about the Second World War as though they had anything to do with it. This is a government that thinks going back to the 70s or even the 50s is the solution to their political ills.

    Britian has got to escape this absurdity. The nostalgia trap will see us relegated to the lowest economic leagues. The fact that Johnson is doing it to try to save his own worthless political life is simply contemptible.

    Allowing imperial measurements doesn't impose any costs at all because nobody is obliged to use them if they don't want to.

    What's absurd is not giving up on imposing metric conformity but the hysterical reactions of people who engage in this kind of national psychoanalysis. What you're doing is not all that far removed from Maria Zakharova condemning Ukraine for wanting to claim borscht for itself.
    What is absurd is banging on about it as though it is an important subject for government to intervene on, but that is what populist apologists for Johnson are doing.
    TBOBS - "Tangible Benefits of Brexit" - are so thin on the ground, though, that one has to take what one can get. In this case the visceral thrill of being able to buy a pound of King Edwards.
    Ah, but it's the IBOBS that count. The Intangible Benefits of Brexit

    Being a free man in a free country. Walking tall, like an American citizen in 1779, inhaling the pure forest air of independence.

    We now own our mistakes. Boris Johnson might well be one of them. So we hurl him out of office. We cannot do that to Ursula of the Lying, the Unilateral Imposer of Article 16, but we don't have to worry any more, she has no power over us. We are free

    In time, Intangible Benefits like Freedom and Independence tend to turn into Tangible Benefits. But it can take a while (Ireland took at least sixty years), so: brace
    We were perfectly free before you plonker. Otherwise how did we manage to decide for ourselves to have the referendum Duh!
  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,908

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Cicero said:

    The response to this is "restore Imperial measurements". In otherwords, impose further costs on the UK economy for no economic gain whatsoever. Basically no one under the age of 60 has been taught the rules of the Imperial system, it is the kind of nostalgia that allows people in the their fifties to talk about the Second World War as though they had anything to do with it. This is a government that thinks going back to the 70s or even the 50s is the solution to their political ills.

    Britian has got to escape this absurdity. The nostalgia trap will see us relegated to the lowest economic leagues. The fact that Johnson is doing it to try to save his own worthless political life is simply contemptible.

    Allowing imperial measurements doesn't impose any costs at all because nobody is obliged to use them if they don't want to.

    What's absurd is not giving up on imposing metric conformity but the hysterical reactions of people who engage in this kind of national psychoanalysis. What you're doing is not all that far removed from Maria Zakharova condemning Ukraine for wanting to claim borscht for itself.
    What is absurd is banging on about it as though it is an important subject for government to intervene on, but that is what populist apologists for Johnson are doing.
    TBOBS - "Tangible Benefits of Brexit" - are so thin on the ground, though, that one has to take what one can get. In this case the visceral thrill of being able to buy a pound of King Edwards.
    Ah, but it's the IBOBS that count. The Intangible Benefits of Brexit

    Being a free man in a free country. Walking tall, like an American citizen in 1779, inhaling the pure forest air of independence.

    We now own our mistakes. Boris Johnson might well be one of them. So we hurl him out of office. We cannot do that to Ursula of the Lying, the Unilateral Imposer of Article 16, but we don't have to worry any more, she has no power over us. We are free

    In time, Intangible Benefits like Freedom and Independence tend to turn into Tangible Benefits. But it can take a while (Ireland took at least sixty years), so: brace
    That thing where you start out reading a contribution imagining it is satirical, and then about three quarters of the way through you realise that the poster is actually serious, and you check who posted it, and yes it is Leon.
    *glows with pride*
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 62,873
    Leon said:

    So the French are blaming the Liverpool supporters

    The French and quite a few on pb are blaming the Liverpool supporters.
    I saw nothing yesterday to suggest Liverpool supporters behaved badly and remember I have been a Man Utd supporter for near 70 years
    Apart from the multiple videos of Liverpool fans climbing high fences and then sprinting into the stadium? Apart from them, then?
    There are some comments that locals were climbing the fences

    However, I expect the French will continue to blame Liverpool
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    No Macron, but:

    French Foreign Minister Catherine Colonna visited Bucha in Kyiv region.
    Bucha is a symbol of the russian army's crimes against humanity.


    https://twitter.com/arnocast/status/1531223117661618177
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,455


    Jo Maugham
    @JolyonMaugham
    ·
    22h
    If anyone would care to share a copy of the unredacted Sue Gray report with us - our Threema is on our website - we will consider whether we can bring a private prosecution for misconduct in public office.

    https://twitter.com/JolyonMaugham/status/1530897762845437953

    At what point does a judge formally label him a vexatious litigant, and bar him from appearing in court?
  • ApplicantApplicant Posts: 3,379

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Cicero said:

    The response to this is "restore Imperial measurements". In otherwords, impose further costs on the UK economy for no economic gain whatsoever. Basically no one under the age of 60 has been taught the rules of the Imperial system, it is the kind of nostalgia that allows people in the their fifties to talk about the Second World War as though they had anything to do with it. This is a government that thinks going back to the 70s or even the 50s is the solution to their political ills.

    Britian has got to escape this absurdity. The nostalgia trap will see us relegated to the lowest economic leagues. The fact that Johnson is doing it to try to save his own worthless political life is simply contemptible.

    Allowing imperial measurements doesn't impose any costs at all because nobody is obliged to use them if they don't want to.

    What's absurd is not giving up on imposing metric conformity but the hysterical reactions of people who engage in this kind of national psychoanalysis. What you're doing is not all that far removed from Maria Zakharova condemning Ukraine for wanting to claim borscht for itself.
    What is absurd is banging on about it as though it is an important subject for government to intervene on, but that is what populist apologists for Johnson are doing.
    TBOBS - "Tangible Benefits of Brexit" - are so thin on the ground, though, that one has to take what one can get. In this case the visceral thrill of being able to buy a pound of King Edwards.
    Ah, but it's the IBOBS that count. The Intangible Benefits of Brexit

    Being a free man in a free country. Walking tall, like an American citizen in 1779, inhaling the pure forest air of independence.

    We now own our mistakes. Boris Johnson might well be one of them. So we hurl him out of office. We cannot do that to Ursula of the Lying, the Unilateral Imposer of Article 16, but we don't have to worry any more, she has no power over us. We are free

    In time, Intangible Benefits like Freedom and Independence tend to turn into Tangible Benefits. But it can take a while (Ireland took at least sixty years), so: brace
    We were perfectly free before you plonker. Otherwise how did we manage to decide for ourselves to have the referendum Duh!
    That was allowed by the Europhiles - eventually - because they thought they'd win.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,735
    Mr. Foremain, yes and no.

    The electorate voted for three parties promising a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty (the Constitution with a new font), and when the one that got a majority reneged upon it there was no chance for a public vote.

    Pro-EU MPs helped remove the chance for a softer departure, and earlier removed the pressure valve (and morally necessary referendum) on Lisbon, which led to the much starker choice of Remain (which some would've leapt on as a platform to try and get us into the euro) and Leave.

    The Leave side benefited from division, the advantage of the pro-EU side was in compromise, but they shunned that because they were in the ascendancy and thought they would be forever. A bit like Labour and its Celtic fiefdoms, which very nearly led to the end of the UK as currently constituted.

    Ignoring and belittling sceptics and doing nothing to persuade those in the middle (indeed, baiting 'standing up for the UK' or a referendum in campaigning then turning native in government) served only to strengthen the adversaries of the pro-EU side.
  • Daveyboy1961Daveyboy1961 Posts: 3,872
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Cicero said:

    The response to this is "restore Imperial measurements". In otherwords, impose further costs on the UK economy for no economic gain whatsoever. Basically no one under the age of 60 has been taught the rules of the Imperial system, it is the kind of nostalgia that allows people in the their fifties to talk about the Second World War as though they had anything to do with it. This is a government that thinks going back to the 70s or even the 50s is the solution to their political ills.

    Britian has got to escape this absurdity. The nostalgia trap will see us relegated to the lowest economic leagues. The fact that Johnson is doing it to try to save his own worthless political life is simply contemptible.

    Allowing imperial measurements doesn't impose any costs at all because nobody is obliged to use them if they don't want to.

    What's absurd is not giving up on imposing metric conformity but the hysterical reactions of people who engage in this kind of national psychoanalysis. What you're doing is not all that far removed from Maria Zakharova condemning Ukraine for wanting to claim borscht for itself.
    What is absurd is banging on about it as though it is an important subject for government to intervene on, but that is what populist apologists for Johnson are doing.
    TBOBS - "Tangible Benefits of Brexit" - are so thin on the ground, though, that one has to take what one can get. In this case the visceral thrill of being able to buy a pound of King Edwards.
    Ah, but it's the IBOBS that count. The Intangible Benefits of Brexit

    Being a free man in a free country. Walking tall, like an American citizen in 1779, inhaling the pure forest air of independence.

    We now own our mistakes. Boris Johnson might well be one of them. So we hurl him out of office. We cannot do that to Ursula of the Lying, the Unilateral Imposer of Article 16, but we don't have to worry any more, she has no power over us. We are free

    In time, Intangible Benefits like Freedom and Independence tend to turn into Tangible Benefits. But it can take a while (Ireland took at least sixty years), so: brace
    That thing where you start out reading a contribution imagining it is satirical, and then about three quarters of the way through you realise that the poster is actually serious, and you check who posted it, and yes it is Leon.
    *glows with pride*
    just like a slice of Gammon covered in honey
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,011
    JonWC said:

    Some old nonsense just came through on Twitter. Is it true that Johnson went pro- Leave because the Telegraph threatened to remove his £275,000 pa hobble if he did not?

    So the cost of Brexit was £275,000 pa. Let's put that on the side of a bus.

    Conservative MPs get rid of this appalling man.

    I want Boris gone, but not because of Brexit, or covid which he was ahead of the game opening the economy, or indeed Ukraine where he has at least supported Ukraine while Germany and France prevaricate

    I want him out for partygate and his arrogance in putting his mps and his party in disarray for his own selfish ego

    Conservative mps just have to remove him
    While I agree with this, I think even a fairly glancing blow at the vote of confidence will eventually finish Boris off. While he absolutely strikes me as the sort of man who would carry on Black Knight style if he won by a single vote, I think he cares about his place in history and would change his mind sooner or later to avoid the historic humiliation of either

    a) being removed in disgrace at a subsequent VOC after the local election annihilation next year;
    b) losing repeated votes in the HoC - after all he would clearly not have majority support there;
    c) losing his seat as the Tories get smashed at the next election.

    Nobody would want to hear chants of "Are you May in disguise?" Even Theresa May might be chanting that soon...
    Maybe so. I have him down as Never Resign but perhaps there are circs where he would. There's a sliver of (possible) evidence for this in his past - how he caved and pulled out of the leadership election after Gove's intervention.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 21,994

    Carnyx said:

    Applicant said:

    Carnyx said:

    Farooq said:

    'Ok guys, jus' spitballing here, but what if we try tunnels again, only in a different place?'

    'Genius, trebles all round!'





    Great! They work in Norway and the Faroes. Once again the UK is backwards when it comes to infrastructure.
    How many Islands?.... How many tunnels?

    Compared to a few ferries now and again?

    Tunnels are always going to be better than ferries, due to not having to worry about the weather. Which is why the Greenwich foot tunnel was built during the reign of Queen Victoria.

    I don't see any particular reason why the Orkney and Shetland Islands shouldn't follow the Faroes in having tunnels between some of the islands.
    There's a tunnel in Greenwich that's only 30cm long?
    Rotherhithe tunnel was earlier IIRC. Brunel sen and jun innit.
    I've walked through the Greenwich and Woolwich tunnels. Not Rotherhithe, yet.

    https://www.ianvisits.co.uk/articles/walking-through-a-tunnel-under-the-thames-part-1-11764/
    Only done Greenwich!

    IIRC Rotherhithe might be tricky to walk through without being fried by accident. It was converted to a Tube line at some point, though I've been on the train through it. Not sure about current situation with all the changes.
    Rotherhithe is still a road tunnel, and unlike Blackwall you can still walk through it although the air quality must be awful and I've never seen anyone crazy enough to try. It's the much earlier tunnel built by Brunel that has been converted to rail use (formerly East London line, now the Overground) - although this tunnel also crosses at Rotherhithe.
    Hold on - the Overground goes through a tunnel?
  • pingping Posts: 3,805

    Scott_xP said:

    The 60 Conservative MPs most at risk of losing their seat to Labour - many of whom represent 'red wall' seats - are strikingly more loyal to Johnson. Will this change if Labour win the Wakefield by-election? https://twitter.com/joe_armitage/status/1531233048779493378/photo/1

    Unsurprising in a lot of ways. Without Brexit Boris, they have got good reason to think that they wouldn't have got over the line in 2019.

    Boris did that by telling them a pile of porkies, but he's still the best hope that MPs in Red Wall marginals have. And the longer they stick by their man, the sillier they would look if they dropped him.

    For some, the point of no return may have passed already.
    Indeed. I made exactly that point when @Tissue_Price spoke out. He was universally applauded on PB, but to me it was a clear mistake.
This discussion has been closed.