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Could more Tory MP defections be in the pipeline? – politicalbetting.com

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  • Daveyboy1961Daveyboy1961 Posts: 3,872
    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Cicero said:

    The response to this is "restore Imperial measurements". In otherwords, impose further costs on the UK economy for no economic gain whatsoever. Basically no one under the age of 60 has been taught the rules of the Imperial system, it is the kind of nostalgia that allows people in the their fifties to talk about the Second World War as though they had anything to do with it. This is a government that thinks going back to the 70s or even the 50s is the solution to their political ills.

    Britian has got to escape this absurdity. The nostalgia trap will see us relegated to the lowest economic leagues. The fact that Johnson is doing it to try to save his own worthless political life is simply contemptible.

    Allowing imperial measurements doesn't impose any costs at all because nobody is obliged to use them if they don't want to.

    What's absurd is not giving up on imposing metric conformity but the hysterical reactions of people who engage in this kind of national psychoanalysis. What you're doing is not all that far removed from Maria Zakharova condemning Ukraine for wanting to claim borscht for itself.
    What is absurd is banging on about it as though it is an important subject for government to intervene on, but that is what populist apologists for Johnson are doing.
    TBOBS - "Tangible Benefits of Brexit" - are so thin on the ground, though, that one has to take what one can get. In this case the visceral thrill of being able to buy a pound of King Edwards.
    Ah, but it's the IBOBS that count. The Intangible Benefits of Brexit

    Being a free man in a free country. Walking tall, like an American citizen in 1779, inhaling the pure forest air of independence.

    We now own our mistakes. Boris Johnson might well be one of them. So we hurl him out of office. We cannot do that to Ursula of the Lying, the Unilateral Imposer of Article 16, but we don't have to worry any more, she has no power over us. We are free

    In time, Intangible Benefits like Freedom and Independence tend to turn into Tangible Benefits. But it can take a while (Ireland took at least sixty years), so: brace
    Did you used to pull the legs off crane flies when you were younger? Admit it, you just like trolling and winding up people, don't you.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 8,145
    IshmaelZ said:

    Do Britons believe the Gov't is currently taking the right measures to address the cost-of-living crisis?

    Yes 16%
    No 70%

    Do Britons believe a Gov't led by the Labour Party would currently be taking the right measures to address the cost-of-living crisis?

    Yes 36%
    No 36%

    It would be interesting to see the entrails

    My guess is the answer for the Tories is most of their opponents plus a % of their voters (with opponents from both ends)say no.

    For Labour mist of their supporters will give them the benefit of the doubt

    In short I’m not sure this polling is particularly illuminating
    Also, do people who say not right, all think the error is on the down side. I ain't no hardline weakest go to the wall hard line capitalist, but how it has always worked is, in recessions, individuals tighten their belts and live on fresh air, companies fail, and then you get a recovery. little to no sign of govt help for hard working families. Were we doing it wrong all along?
    That’s what I mean by “opponents from both ends” if I wasn’t clear.

    But I would expect them to be disproportionately Tory supporters who think the government is doing too much
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,376
    French robbing fans. Liverpool fans scaling fences. Locals scaling fences. LFC fans with counterfeit tickets. Locals likewise. Police overeacting. UEFA incompetence.

    All of these can be true simultaneously.
  • boulayboulay Posts: 5,441
    ..
    Leon said:

    So the French are blaming the Liverpool supporters

    The French and quite a few on pb are blaming the Liverpool supporters.
    I saw nothing yesterday to suggest Liverpool supporters behaved badly and remember I have been a Man Utd supporter for near 70 years
    Apart from the multiple videos of Liverpool fans climbing high fences and then sprinting into the stadium? Apart from them, then?
    The Today programme had Julien Laurent on this morning - a well respectedFrench football journalist.

    He was there and was absolutely totally blaming it on the French police and bad organisation.

    He was brutal about the behaviour of the French police - he pointed out that they never fail to use violence and gas with crowds whenever possible. He said that the police had treated the two sets of fans very differently with the arrival to the Liverpool fans end turned into a funnel by police vans to restrict width to three people and various causeways closed off from the metro to the ground.

    He was clear that none of the herding or problems were created for the Real Madrid fans and was clear that it was based on historic behaviour wrongly as much worse fan violence is happening week in and week out in French football.

    Finally he was absolutely full of praise for the Liverpool fans that they kept their cool even after the queuing followed by tear gas and was amazed they didn’t react.

    This was a respected French journalist who covers all the big football matches - has no need to defend Liverpool fans etc.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,872

    Carnyx said:

    Applicant said:

    Carnyx said:

    Farooq said:

    'Ok guys, jus' spitballing here, but what if we try tunnels again, only in a different place?'

    'Genius, trebles all round!'





    Great! They work in Norway and the Faroes. Once again the UK is backwards when it comes to infrastructure.
    How many Islands?.... How many tunnels?

    Compared to a few ferries now and again?

    Tunnels are always going to be better than ferries, due to not having to worry about the weather. Which is why the Greenwich foot tunnel was built during the reign of Queen Victoria.

    I don't see any particular reason why the Orkney and Shetland Islands shouldn't follow the Faroes in having tunnels between some of the islands.
    There's a tunnel in Greenwich that's only 30cm long?
    Rotherhithe tunnel was earlier IIRC. Brunel sen and jun innit.
    I've walked through the Greenwich and Woolwich tunnels. Not Rotherhithe, yet.

    https://www.ianvisits.co.uk/articles/walking-through-a-tunnel-under-the-thames-part-1-11764/
    Only done Greenwich!

    IIRC Rotherhithe might be tricky to walk through without being fried by accident. It was converted to a Tube line at some point, though I've been on the train through it. Not sure about current situation with all the changes.
    The air quality is terrible, driving with windows open would make me feel ill, so it would be a terrible place to walk. I have seen the odd pedestrian but that is probably once every 50 trips. Cyclists are also fairly rare but a disaster to traffic flow as the exits are longish and uphill and nowhere to overtake them so one cyclist will add several minutes to a couple of hundred cars.
    With unusual foresight the Clyde Tunnel builders constructed separate pedestrian/cyclist tunnels running parallel to the main ones. Pretty horrible and scary, mind.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 8,537
    Pensfold said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    'Ok guys, jus' spitballing here, but what if we try tunnels again, only in a different place?'

    'Genius, trebles all round!'





    Great! They work in Norway and the Faroes. Once again the UK is backwards when it comes to infrastructure.
    How many Islands?.... How many tunnels?

    Compared to a few ferries now and again?

    Tunnels are always going to be better than ferries, due to not having to worry about the weather. Which is why the Greenwich foot tunnel was built during the reign of Queen Victoria.

    I don't see any particular reason why the Orkney and Shetland Islands shouldn't follow the Faroes in having tunnels between some of the islands.
    I'd say that the people suggesting it are short term political kite flyers rather than strategic planners, so a good reason for it almost definitely not happening (though not a bad idea per se).
    Makes fair sense for the Shetland main island axis; though one would want to check how deeply glaciated the lateral troughs were. Orkney is more scattered, and the Churchill Barriers already connect the main ring around Scapa, apart from Hoy. A tunnel to the mainland would make some sense, esp if from Hoy to Thurso (and back to Stromness). But I don't think the UK boosters are really thinking: rail tunnels across the Dornoch Firth, Cromarty Firth (from Invergordon) and Kessock Narrows would be a huge improvement all round.
    For that matter a rail tunnel under the Firth of Forth to relieve capacity and fatigue loading on the Forth Bridge. There will have been enough studies done for the Queensferry Crossing, and as the Scots generally seem to deliver most such projects on time and within budget (rail electrification, Q. Crossing) in marked contrast to the DfT, it could be quite promising.
    "and as the Scots generally seem to deliver most such projects on time and within budget"

    The unfinished ferries at Ferguson's say "hi".
    As does the Scottish parliament building.
    The Edinburgh Tram Inquiry? Was opened in 2014.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    Sandpit said:


    Jo Maugham
    @JolyonMaugham
    ·
    22h
    If anyone would care to share a copy of the unredacted Sue Gray report with us - our Threema is on our website - we will consider whether we can bring a private prosecution for misconduct in public office.

    https://twitter.com/JolyonMaugham/status/1530897762845437953

    At what point does a judge formally label him a vexatious litigant, and bar him from appearing in court?
    Courts are incredibly wary of declaring people vexatious litigants because it is such a major infraction of fundamental human rights, and such a convenient tool for shutting down legitimate scrutiny of the organs of state

    Your post has induced me to pop Mr Maugham 50 notes at https://actions.goodlawproject.org/support/
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,517
    MattW said:

    @NickPalmer

    Thanks for the piece.

    Can I take you off-topic slightly?

    How do you compare the activity around HMQ's 70th Jubilee this year, and the corresponding ones for Queen Margrethe II's 50th Jubilee in Denmark, also this year?
    (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Jubilee_of_Margrethe_II)

    Not really close enough to either to give a qualified opinion! In general I'd expect the Danes to do some worthy events and otherwise be a bit more relaxed than us, but I don't honestly know.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,908

    Leon said:

    So the French are blaming the Liverpool supporters

    The French and quite a few on pb are blaming the Liverpool supporters.
    I saw nothing yesterday to suggest Liverpool supporters behaved badly and remember I have been a Man Utd supporter for near 70 years
    Apart from the multiple videos of Liverpool fans climbing high fences and then sprinting into the stadium? Apart from them, then?
    There are some comments that locals were climbing the fences

    However, I expect the French will continue to blame Liverpool
    FFS, there are videos of red shirted Liverpool fans climbing the fences.



    HOWEVER there are now dozens of videos of St Denis "locals" robbing fans (Spanish and British), attacking fans, mobbing the gates, storming fences.

    I suspect this is why the French govt is so desperate to blame the hymn-booing Scousers. The truth is much more awkward and embarrassing. Most of the real trouble and violence came from BAME French people, as you might expect if you have ever walked around St Denis

    Example one:

    "We have found over 30-40 French youths in the C and D blocks of the Stade de France who have stormed the stadium. This is not the fault of Liverpool fans. #bbcnews #bbcfootball
    #championsleague
    @liverpoolfc"



    https://twitter.com/SachMohan/status/1530649894616178688?s=20&t=HZas2nd4LhU3ya_bOhqKaQ

    Example two:

    "A herd of Moroccans and West Africans thugs yelling in #SaintDenis “#France belongs to us 👨🏿‍💼” as they attack and harassed every European person that dared to be walking around #stadedefrance . #Paris has fallen"


    https://twitter.com/AldoRossiSI/status/1530905961606561792?s=20&t=HZas2nd4LhU3ya_bOhqKaQ
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    It's possible that we are at 54 letters or will be in the next day or so but Brady holds back the announcement until next week when Parliament is back. He's perfectly entitled to do so.

    https://twitter.com/Samfr/status/1531245396474871808
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,673
    Applicant said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Cicero said:

    The response to this is "restore Imperial measurements". In otherwords, impose further costs on the UK economy for no economic gain whatsoever. Basically no one under the age of 60 has been taught the rules of the Imperial system, it is the kind of nostalgia that allows people in the their fifties to talk about the Second World War as though they had anything to do with it. This is a government that thinks going back to the 70s or even the 50s is the solution to their political ills.

    Britian has got to escape this absurdity. The nostalgia trap will see us relegated to the lowest economic leagues. The fact that Johnson is doing it to try to save his own worthless political life is simply contemptible.

    Allowing imperial measurements doesn't impose any costs at all because nobody is obliged to use them if they don't want to.

    What's absurd is not giving up on imposing metric conformity but the hysterical reactions of people who engage in this kind of national psychoanalysis. What you're doing is not all that far removed from Maria Zakharova condemning Ukraine for wanting to claim borscht for itself.
    What is absurd is banging on about it as though it is an important subject for government to intervene on, but that is what populist apologists for Johnson are doing.
    TBOBS - "Tangible Benefits of Brexit" - are so thin on the ground, though, that one has to take what one can get. In this case the visceral thrill of being able to buy a pound of King Edwards.
    Ah, but it's the IBOBS that count. The Intangible Benefits of Brexit

    Being a free man in a free country. Walking tall, like an American citizen in 1779, inhaling the pure forest air of independence.

    We now own our mistakes. Boris Johnson might well be one of them. So we hurl him out of office. We cannot do that to Ursula of the Lying, the Unilateral Imposer of Article 16, but we don't have to worry any more, she has no power over us. We are free

    In time, Intangible Benefits like Freedom and Independence tend to turn into Tangible Benefits. But it can take a while (Ireland took at least sixty years), so: brace
    We were perfectly free before you plonker. Otherwise how did we manage to decide for ourselves to have the referendum Duh!
    That was allowed by the Europhiles - eventually - because they thought they'd win.
    Yes, the referendum was a silly idea. The mantra should always have been: if you want to quit the EU then vote UKIP in sufficient numbers; parliamentary sovereignty and all that. That approach would have been democratically watertight and saved us a raft of problems.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 22,887
    edited May 2022

    Is it me or is the daily MOD brief on Ukraine becoming lost in the realms of wishful thinking?

    https://twitter.com/DefenceHQ/status/1531143716840284161?s=20&t=FIwr0IRFqeu7iJ3RTVZDBQ

    It starts with:
    "Russia has likely suffered devastating losses amongst its mid and junior ranking officers..."

    Whereas all the new outlets are indicating Russian progress, sadly, e.g. the BBC's "Heavy fighting as Russia advances into key eastern city".

    TBH I think it is the other way round.

    Mainstream news outlets have generally been 24-48 hours behind the situation on the ground, compared to specialist sources.

    To me the normal MSM reporting in the normal news cycle has been dire, and the elements that have done OK sometimes are 1) The rolling summary reports from the frontline, which have picked up on specialist sources and 2) The analytical stuff from reporters who have had time to think and look at context.

    The report that you quote is about one area. OTOH an example that has been somewhat missed in the MSM have been a Ukr counter-offensive covered yesterday. Presumably that will reach the general MSM eventually.

    https://www.understandingwar.org/backgrounder/russian-offensive-campaign-assessment-may-29

    IMO UK & US intelligence have got things right for most of the time. The DefenceHQ feed has been correct, but cautious and stolid. It reminds me of the famous Ian McDonald in the Falklands War. (*)

    An quick summary from the RUSI of events before the invasion is here:
    https://rusi.org/explore-our-research/publications/commentary/ukraine-and-intelligence-prebuttal-quick-post-mortem

    The Russian losses of junior officers have aiui been a thing throughout, as they have no authoritative non-commissioned level in their organisation.

    (*) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AOv4s30R40U

    I'd be interested to hear others' views on this.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,142
    Naughty BBC. They just showed a shot of empty seats in the Liverpool end and implied that it was at 20:36 BST (i.e. the actual kick off). The pictures they were showing from around just after 20:00.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    So the French are blaming the Liverpool supporters

    The French and quite a few on pb are blaming the Liverpool supporters.
    I saw nothing yesterday to suggest Liverpool supporters behaved badly and remember I have been a Man Utd supporter for near 70 years
    Apart from the multiple videos of Liverpool fans climbing high fences and then sprinting into the stadium? Apart from them, then?
    There are some comments that locals were climbing the fences

    However, I expect the French will continue to blame Liverpool
    FFS, there are videos of red shirted Liverpool fans climbing the fences.



    HOWEVER there are now dozens of videos of St Denis "locals" robbing fans (Spanish and British), attacking fans, mobbing the gates, storming fences.

    I suspect this is why the French govt is so desperate to blame the hymn-booing Scousers. The truth is much more awkward and embarrassing. Most of the real trouble and violence came from BAME French people, as you might expect if you have ever walked around St Denis

    Example one:

    "We have found over 30-40 French youths in the C and D blocks of the Stade de France who have stormed the stadium. This is not the fault of Liverpool fans. #bbcnews #bbcfootball
    #championsleague
    @liverpoolfc"



    https://twitter.com/SachMohan/status/1530649894616178688?s=20&t=HZas2nd4LhU3ya_bOhqKaQ

    Example two:

    "A herd of Moroccans and West Africans thugs yelling in #SaintDenis “#France belongs to us 👨🏿‍💼” as they attack and harassed every European person that dared to be walking around #stadedefrance . #Paris has fallen"


    https://twitter.com/AldoRossiSI/status/1530905961606561792?s=20&t=HZas2nd4LhU3ya_bOhqKaQ
    Which makes that arsehat Klopps exhortation to go to Paris without a ticket look even more inspired. Why is he still in a job?
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,683
    Eabhal said:

    Pensfold said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    'Ok guys, jus' spitballing here, but what if we try tunnels again, only in a different place?'

    'Genius, trebles all round!'





    Great! They work in Norway and the Faroes. Once again the UK is backwards when it comes to infrastructure.
    How many Islands?.... How many tunnels?

    Compared to a few ferries now and again?

    Tunnels are always going to be better than ferries, due to not having to worry about the weather. Which is why the Greenwich foot tunnel was built during the reign of Queen Victoria.

    I don't see any particular reason why the Orkney and Shetland Islands shouldn't follow the Faroes in having tunnels between some of the islands.
    I'd say that the people suggesting it are short term political kite flyers rather than strategic planners, so a good reason for it almost definitely not happening (though not a bad idea per se).
    Makes fair sense for the Shetland main island axis; though one would want to check how deeply glaciated the lateral troughs were. Orkney is more scattered, and the Churchill Barriers already connect the main ring around Scapa, apart from Hoy. A tunnel to the mainland would make some sense, esp if from Hoy to Thurso (and back to Stromness). But I don't think the UK boosters are really thinking: rail tunnels across the Dornoch Firth, Cromarty Firth (from Invergordon) and Kessock Narrows would be a huge improvement all round.
    For that matter a rail tunnel under the Firth of Forth to relieve capacity and fatigue loading on the Forth Bridge. There will have been enough studies done for the Queensferry Crossing, and as the Scots generally seem to deliver most such projects on time and within budget (rail electrification, Q. Crossing) in marked contrast to the DfT, it could be quite promising.
    "and as the Scots generally seem to deliver most such projects on time and within budget"

    The unfinished ferries at Ferguson's say "hi".
    As does the Scottish parliament building.
    The Edinburgh Tram Inquiry? Was opened in 2014.
    Into a Labour/LD fiasco, imposed by a Unionist + SG alliancde to screw up the transport planning of the SNP government for years.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,908
    boulay said:

    ..

    Leon said:

    So the French are blaming the Liverpool supporters

    The French and quite a few on pb are blaming the Liverpool supporters.
    I saw nothing yesterday to suggest Liverpool supporters behaved badly and remember I have been a Man Utd supporter for near 70 years
    Apart from the multiple videos of Liverpool fans climbing high fences and then sprinting into the stadium? Apart from them, then?
    The Today programme had Julien Laurent on this morning - a well respectedFrench football journalist.

    He was there and was absolutely totally blaming it on the French police and bad organisation.

    He was brutal about the behaviour of the French police - he pointed out that they never fail to use violence and gas with crowds whenever possible. He said that the police had treated the two sets of fans very differently with the arrival to the Liverpool fans end turned into a funnel by police vans to restrict width to three people and various causeways closed off from the metro to the ground.

    He was clear that none of the herding or problems were created for the Real Madrid fans and was clear that it was based on historic behaviour wrongly as much worse fan violence is happening week in and week out in French football.

    Finally he was absolutely full of praise for the Liverpool fans that they kept their cool even after the queuing followed by tear gas and was amazed they didn’t react.

    This was a respected French journalist who covers all the big football matches - has no need to defend Liverpool fans etc.

    A good Spectator article sums it all up


    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/marine-le-pen-is-right-about-liverpool-fans


    I tend to blame, in descending order


    Equal first: Ugly French locals and ugly French police
    UEFA for not anticipating this
    Silly Scousers turning up ticketless and trying to get in
    Macron (just because)
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,683
    Pensfold said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    'Ok guys, jus' spitballing here, but what if we try tunnels again, only in a different place?'

    'Genius, trebles all round!'





    Great! They work in Norway and the Faroes. Once again the UK is backwards when it comes to infrastructure.
    How many Islands?.... How many tunnels?

    Compared to a few ferries now and again?

    Tunnels are always going to be better than ferries, due to not having to worry about the weather. Which is why the Greenwich foot tunnel was built during the reign of Queen Victoria.

    I don't see any particular reason why the Orkney and Shetland Islands shouldn't follow the Faroes in having tunnels between some of the islands.
    I'd say that the people suggesting it are short term political kite flyers rather than strategic planners, so a good reason for it almost definitely not happening (though not a bad idea per se).
    Makes fair sense for the Shetland main island axis; though one would want to check how deeply glaciated the lateral troughs were. Orkney is more scattered, and the Churchill Barriers already connect the main ring around Scapa, apart from Hoy. A tunnel to the mainland would make some sense, esp if from Hoy to Thurso (and back to Stromness). But I don't think the UK boosters are really thinking: rail tunnels across the Dornoch Firth, Cromarty Firth (from Invergordon) and Kessock Narrows would be a huge improvement all round.
    For that matter a rail tunnel under the Firth of Forth to relieve capacity and fatigue loading on the Forth Bridge. There will have been enough studies done for the Queensferry Crossing, and as the Scots generally seem to deliver most such projects on time and within budget (rail electrification, Q. Crossing) in marked contrast to the DfT, it could be quite promising.
    "and as the Scots generally seem to deliver most such projects on time and within budget"

    The unfinished ferries at Ferguson's say "hi".
    As does the Scottish parliament building.
    London Labour enforced. The Scots wanted to reuse the Royal High School, which is still empty and looking for a role IIRC.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,011
    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Cicero said:

    The response to this is "restore Imperial measurements". In otherwords, impose further costs on the UK economy for no economic gain whatsoever. Basically no one under the age of 60 has been taught the rules of the Imperial system, it is the kind of nostalgia that allows people in the their fifties to talk about the Second World War as though they had anything to do with it. This is a government that thinks going back to the 70s or even the 50s is the solution to their political ills.

    Britian has got to escape this absurdity. The nostalgia trap will see us relegated to the lowest economic leagues. The fact that Johnson is doing it to try to save his own worthless political life is simply contemptible.

    Allowing imperial measurements doesn't impose any costs at all because nobody is obliged to use them if they don't want to.

    What's absurd is not giving up on imposing metric conformity but the hysterical reactions of people who engage in this kind of national psychoanalysis. What you're doing is not all that far removed from Maria Zakharova condemning Ukraine for wanting to claim borscht for itself.
    What is absurd is banging on about it as though it is an important subject for government to intervene on, but that is what populist apologists for Johnson are doing.
    TBOBS - "Tangible Benefits of Brexit" - are so thin on the ground, though, that one has to take what one can get. In this case the visceral thrill of being able to buy a pound of King Edwards.
    Ah, but it's the IBOBS that count. The Intangible Benefits of Brexit

    Being a free man in a free country. Walking tall, like an American citizen in 1779, inhaling the pure forest air of independence.

    We now own our mistakes. Boris Johnson might well be one of them. So we hurl him out of office. We cannot do that to Ursula of the Lying, the Unilateral Imposer of Article 16, but we don't have to worry any more, she has no power over us. We are free

    In time, Intangible Benefits like Freedom and Independence tend to turn into Tangible Benefits. But it can take a while (Ireland took at least sixty years), so: brace
    Yes, I'm afraid this is pretty much the size of it. 17m of our number felt somehow under the yoke of "Foreign" as they went about their daily business. To the extent they now don't, instead feel free and empowered and just that teeny bit more important, then that is the benefit of Brexit. The one and only, thus not to be sneered at. Because if you sneer at the one and only benefit you're sneering at Brexit itself and - worse - at those who wanted it. Plus, in all seriousness, although not a Leaver myself if leaving the EU truly has made 17m people feel more free and more empowered and that little bit more important - not so frustrated and invisible - then this is no small thing.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 62,873
    Sky reporting Jeremy Wright concludes Boris should resign

    Keep it coming folks
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,517
    IshmaelZ said:

    Toms said:

    "In the area of animal welfare, which is my main focus these days, his government has been better than most so far."

    Like favoring dogs over people at Kabul airport? At tax-payer' expense?

    I would love to be corrected here.

    The case for the defence is that the dogs airlift was (I believe) done at Pen Farthing's charity's expense, that they offered to take refugees as well (the dogs were all in the hold so there was plenty of passenger space) but it didn't fit into the planned evacuation (which is fair enough) and that it didn't detract from the rest of the evacuation at all. The only extra burden was for air traffic control to allow them to land and take off, and a few soldiers to let the consignment through the barrier and take them to the plane.

    People with various agendas have blown it up into a big issue when I suspect it actually wasn't. But I wasn't there, so all this is second- or third-hand.
    There is a parliamentary rule against "imputing motive" for good reason. It is better manners to address an argument on its merits than to dismiss its proponents as "people with an agenda."

    Nobody denies the plane was privately funded. Your point about refugees is nonsensical. the plane had plenty of human passengers, all employees of Farthing, who crucially WOULD HAVE BEEN IN NO DANGER WHATEVER if they had remained in Afghanistan (evidence was given to FAC that other animal welfare operations have continued unhindered by the taliban in Afghanistan, and there was never any reason to suppose that would not be the case). If those placesw were taken by, effectively, economic migrants, they could have been taken by people who have now been tortured to death. actually tortured, to actual death.

    FAC evidence is also utterly conclusive that masses of admin time in London was wasted over the issue. I don't know if you have read the FAC evidence and conclusions. I have, and watched a lot of the hearings. It is conclusive. Even if it weren't, I think a lot of people would think that even if there was only a 5% chance that just one person who needed to get out would fail because of time wasted by Farthing, he wshould have been told to fuck off.

    But then again, doggies. Awwww.
    Fair enough - as I said, I don't claim any detailed knowledge, and you've clearly looked at it more closely. The point about private funding was in response to the "at taxpayers' expense" phrase in the original post.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    Sky reporting Jeremy Wright concludes Boris should resign

    Keep it coming folks

    Already "icy" in A Meeks spreadsheet in February
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 13,400
    Are they colluding behind the scenes to keep the scary drip coming, or giving each other succour from afar?
  • ApplicantApplicant Posts: 3,379

    Carnyx said:

    Applicant said:

    Carnyx said:

    Farooq said:

    'Ok guys, jus' spitballing here, but what if we try tunnels again, only in a different place?'

    'Genius, trebles all round!'





    Great! They work in Norway and the Faroes. Once again the UK is backwards when it comes to infrastructure.
    How many Islands?.... How many tunnels?

    Compared to a few ferries now and again?

    Tunnels are always going to be better than ferries, due to not having to worry about the weather. Which is why the Greenwich foot tunnel was built during the reign of Queen Victoria.

    I don't see any particular reason why the Orkney and Shetland Islands shouldn't follow the Faroes in having tunnels between some of the islands.
    There's a tunnel in Greenwich that's only 30cm long?
    Rotherhithe tunnel was earlier IIRC. Brunel sen and jun innit.
    I've walked through the Greenwich and Woolwich tunnels. Not Rotherhithe, yet.

    https://www.ianvisits.co.uk/articles/walking-through-a-tunnel-under-the-thames-part-1-11764/
    Only done Greenwich!

    IIRC Rotherhithe might be tricky to walk through without being fried by accident. It was converted to a Tube line at some point, though I've been on the train through it. Not sure about current situation with all the changes.
    Rotherhithe is still a road tunnel, and unlike Blackwall you can still walk through it although the air quality must be awful and I've never seen anyone crazy enough to try. It's the much earlier tunnel built by Brunel that has been converted to rail use (formerly East London line, now the Overground) - although this tunnel also crosses at Rotherhithe.
    Hold on - the Overground goes through a tunnel?
    At Whitechapel the Underground passes over the Overground.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,908
    edited May 2022
    IshmaelZ said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    So the French are blaming the Liverpool supporters

    The French and quite a few on pb are blaming the Liverpool supporters.
    I saw nothing yesterday to suggest Liverpool supporters behaved badly and remember I have been a Man Utd supporter for near 70 years
    Apart from the multiple videos of Liverpool fans climbing high fences and then sprinting into the stadium? Apart from them, then?
    There are some comments that locals were climbing the fences

    However, I expect the French will continue to blame Liverpool
    FFS, there are videos of red shirted Liverpool fans climbing the fences.



    HOWEVER there are now dozens of videos of St Denis "locals" robbing fans (Spanish and British), attacking fans, mobbing the gates, storming fences.

    I suspect this is why the French govt is so desperate to blame the hymn-booing Scousers. The truth is much more awkward and embarrassing. Most of the real trouble and violence came from BAME French people, as you might expect if you have ever walked around St Denis

    Example one:

    "We have found over 30-40 French youths in the C and D blocks of the Stade de France who have stormed the stadium. This is not the fault of Liverpool fans. #bbcnews #bbcfootball
    #championsleague
    @liverpoolfc"



    https://twitter.com/SachMohan/status/1530649894616178688?s=20&t=HZas2nd4LhU3ya_bOhqKaQ

    Example two:

    "A herd of Moroccans and West Africans thugs yelling in #SaintDenis “#France belongs to us 👨🏿‍💼” as they attack and harassed every European person that dared to be walking around #stadedefrance . #Paris has fallen"


    https://twitter.com/AldoRossiSI/status/1530905961606561792?s=20&t=HZas2nd4LhU3ya_bOhqKaQ
    Which makes that arsehat Klopps exhortation to go to Paris without a ticket look even more inspired. Why is he still in a job?
    This is incredible. Apparently it's a wellknown French TV star forcing their way in to the stadium (because, famous) and then loads of locals follow (because, example) and you can just see distressed Liverpool fans at the end, I think

    And they proudly film it all?! And post it on social media?

    Marine le Pen has called it a humiliation for France. This is not good timing for Macron

    https://twitter.com/FFLose/status/1530657070638309377?s=20&t=HZas2nd4LhU3ya_bOhqKaQ


    EDIT: there is a claim on Twitter that this is a false interpretation of the video. My schoolboy French is not good enough to work out what they are saying

    Can someone else do a better job of translating?
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,872
    Leon said:

    boulay said:

    ..

    Leon said:

    So the French are blaming the Liverpool supporters

    The French and quite a few on pb are blaming the Liverpool supporters.
    I saw nothing yesterday to suggest Liverpool supporters behaved badly and remember I have been a Man Utd supporter for near 70 years
    Apart from the multiple videos of Liverpool fans climbing high fences and then sprinting into the stadium? Apart from them, then?
    The Today programme had Julien Laurent on this morning - a well respectedFrench football journalist.

    He was there and was absolutely totally blaming it on the French police and bad organisation.

    He was brutal about the behaviour of the French police - he pointed out that they never fail to use violence and gas with crowds whenever possible. He said that the police had treated the two sets of fans very differently with the arrival to the Liverpool fans end turned into a funnel by police vans to restrict width to three people and various causeways closed off from the metro to the ground.

    He was clear that none of the herding or problems were created for the Real Madrid fans and was clear that it was based on historic behaviour wrongly as much worse fan violence is happening week in and week out in French football.

    Finally he was absolutely full of praise for the Liverpool fans that they kept their cool even after the queuing followed by tear gas and was amazed they didn’t react.

    This was a respected French journalist who covers all the big football matches - has no need to defend Liverpool fans etc.

    A good Spectator article sums it all up


    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/marine-le-pen-is-right-about-liverpool-fans


    I tend to blame, in descending order


    Equal first: Ugly French locals and ugly French police
    UEFA for not anticipating this
    Silly Scousers turning up ticketless and trying to get in
    Macron (just because)
    I am disappointed to see no fragment of blame attached to Woke. You can do better..
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,376

    Sky reporting Jeremy Wright concludes Boris should resign

    Keep it coming folks

    Lego man himself!
    Not one whose seat is under threat. Even in a '97 type meltdown.
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,673

    Sky reporting Jeremy Wright concludes Boris should resign

    Keep it coming folks

    We've been told repeatedly told by various sources that the Gray Report was one massive anti-climax (just Boris and some naff sandwiches). So why are an increasing number of Tory MPs demanding he quit? Do they not appreciate that Boris was vindicated, or are there ulterior motives at play?
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 28,871

    Sky reporting Jeremy Wright concludes Boris should resign

    Keep it coming folks

    Yep. This is one area where more is definitely better.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 62,873

    Are they colluding behind the scenes to keep the scary drip coming, or giving each other succour from afar?

    To be fair I have no idea but whatever let's get over the line immediately Parliament returns
  • ApplicantApplicant Posts: 3,379
    IshmaelZ said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    So the French are blaming the Liverpool supporters

    The French and quite a few on pb are blaming the Liverpool supporters.
    I saw nothing yesterday to suggest Liverpool supporters behaved badly and remember I have been a Man Utd supporter for near 70 years
    Apart from the multiple videos of Liverpool fans climbing high fences and then sprinting into the stadium? Apart from them, then?
    There are some comments that locals were climbing the fences

    However, I expect the French will continue to blame Liverpool
    FFS, there are videos of red shirted Liverpool fans climbing the fences.



    HOWEVER there are now dozens of videos of St Denis "locals" robbing fans (Spanish and British), attacking fans, mobbing the gates, storming fences.

    I suspect this is why the French govt is so desperate to blame the hymn-booing Scousers. The truth is much more awkward and embarrassing. Most of the real trouble and violence came from BAME French people, as you might expect if you have ever walked around St Denis

    Example one:

    "We have found over 30-40 French youths in the C and D blocks of the Stade de France who have stormed the stadium. This is not the fault of Liverpool fans. #bbcnews #bbcfootball
    #championsleague
    @liverpoolfc"



    https://twitter.com/SachMohan/status/1530649894616178688?s=20&t=HZas2nd4LhU3ya_bOhqKaQ

    Example two:

    "A herd of Moroccans and West Africans thugs yelling in #SaintDenis “#France belongs to us 👨🏿‍💼” as they attack and harassed every European person that dared to be walking around #stadedefrance . #Paris has fallen"


    https://twitter.com/AldoRossiSI/status/1530905961606561792?s=20&t=HZas2nd4LhU3ya_bOhqKaQ
    Which makes that arsehat Klopps exhortation to go to Paris without a ticket look even more inspired. Why is he still in a job?
    Going to Paris without a ticket wouldn't be a problem - there was a fan zone, right?

    Going to Saint-Denis without a ticket is a different matter,
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 13,400

    It's possible that we are at 54 letters or will be in the next day or so but Brady holds back the announcement until next week when Parliament is back. He's perfectly entitled to do so.

    https://twitter.com/Samfr/status/1531245396474871808

    I reckon he will announce straight away, call it for early next week. They can even do the ballot remotely without having to vote in person.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,247

    Sky reporting Jeremy Wright concludes Boris should resign

    Keep it coming folks

    Wright by name, right by nature.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,011
    Applicant said:

    Some old nonsense just came through on Twitter. Is it true that Johnson went pro- Leave because the Telegraph threatened to remove his £275,000 pa hobble if he did not?

    So the cost of Brexit was £275,000 pa. Let's put that on the side of a bus.

    Conservative MPs get rid of this appalling man.

    Interesting if true. It might be that the famous two articles were actually an earlier and later draft. Boris submitted the Remain version, but then his masters at the Telegraph told him 'If you think we're publishing this crap you've got another thing coming. Do it again.' It certainly doesn't seem beyond the realms of possibility.
    Surely "he thought it was his best chance of becoming PM" is more likely?
    Positioning for the Tory leadership. He needed to be Leave to maximize his chances, whichever way the Ref went. All very sordid. Which he is. Forget all this jocular amiability stuff. That's not the essence of the man. Tawdry. Empty. Vacuous. Malign. These are the sort of words you need.
  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 7,172
    Leon said:

    So the French are blaming the Liverpool supporters

    The French and quite a few on pb are blaming the Liverpool supporters.
    I saw nothing yesterday to suggest Liverpool supporters behaved badly and remember I have been a Man Utd supporter for near 70 years
    Apart from the multiple videos of Liverpool fans climbing high fences and then sprinting into the stadium? Apart from them, then?
    It has been a really, really tough call for the Daily Mail.

    Should they go for the xenophobic angle: "Bungling Inspector Clouseau messes up at the Stade de France. Frogs let our lads down at Dunkirk in 39, and let our lads down again at Paris. That's the EU for you, better off out."

    Or the class war angle : "Drunken Scouse yobs without tickets stealing hubcaps and beating up innocent bystanders. Always causing trouble. Lotta them knew they were buying fake tiks.. it's in their DNA."

    The DM went for xenophobia ...
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,831
    boulay said:

    ..

    Leon said:

    So the French are blaming the Liverpool supporters

    The French and quite a few on pb are blaming the Liverpool supporters.
    I saw nothing yesterday to suggest Liverpool supporters behaved badly and remember I have been a Man Utd supporter for near 70 years
    Apart from the multiple videos of Liverpool fans climbing high fences and then sprinting into the stadium? Apart from them, then?
    The Today programme had Julien Laurent on this morning - a well respectedFrench football journalist.

    He was there and was absolutely totally blaming it on the French police and bad organisation.

    He was brutal about the behaviour of the French police - he pointed out that they never fail to use violence and gas with crowds whenever possible. He said that the police had treated the two sets of fans very differently with the arrival to the Liverpool fans end turned into a funnel by police vans to restrict width to three people and various causeways closed off from the metro to the ground.

    He was clear that none of the herding or problems were created for the Real Madrid fans and was clear that it was based on historic behaviour wrongly as much worse fan violence is happening week in and week out in French football.

    Finally he was absolutely full of praise for the Liverpool fans that they kept their cool even after the queuing followed by tear gas and was amazed they didn’t react.

    This was a respected French journalist who covers all the big football matches - has no need to defend Liverpool fans etc.
    Obviously the self-hating James O'Brien of French journalism.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 62,873

    Sky reporting Jeremy Wright concludes Boris should resign

    Keep it coming folks

    We've been told repeatedly told by various sources that the Gray Report was one massive anti-climax (just Boris and some naff sandwiches). So why are an increasing number of Tory MPs demanding he quit? Do they not appreciate that Boris was vindicated, or are there ulterior motives at play?
    They are facing the anger of their voters

    The Queen's Platinum Jubilee party could be the occasion with social gatherings that takes Boris down

    Oh the irony
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,344

    Applicant said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Cicero said:

    The response to this is "restore Imperial measurements". In otherwords, impose further costs on the UK economy for no economic gain whatsoever. Basically no one under the age of 60 has been taught the rules of the Imperial system, it is the kind of nostalgia that allows people in the their fifties to talk about the Second World War as though they had anything to do with it. This is a government that thinks going back to the 70s or even the 50s is the solution to their political ills.

    Britian has got to escape this absurdity. The nostalgia trap will see us relegated to the lowest economic leagues. The fact that Johnson is doing it to try to save his own worthless political life is simply contemptible.

    Allowing imperial measurements doesn't impose any costs at all because nobody is obliged to use them if they don't want to.

    What's absurd is not giving up on imposing metric conformity but the hysterical reactions of people who engage in this kind of national psychoanalysis. What you're doing is not all that far removed from Maria Zakharova condemning Ukraine for wanting to claim borscht for itself.
    What is absurd is banging on about it as though it is an important subject for government to intervene on, but that is what populist apologists for Johnson are doing.
    TBOBS - "Tangible Benefits of Brexit" - are so thin on the ground, though, that one has to take what one can get. In this case the visceral thrill of being able to buy a pound of King Edwards.
    Ah, but it's the IBOBS that count. The Intangible Benefits of Brexit

    Being a free man in a free country. Walking tall, like an American citizen in 1779, inhaling the pure forest air of independence.

    We now own our mistakes. Boris Johnson might well be one of them. So we hurl him out of office. We cannot do that to Ursula of the Lying, the Unilateral Imposer of Article 16, but we don't have to worry any more, she has no power over us. We are free

    In time, Intangible Benefits like Freedom and Independence tend to turn into Tangible Benefits. But it can take a while (Ireland took at least sixty years), so: brace
    We were perfectly free before you plonker. Otherwise how did we manage to decide for ourselves to have the referendum Duh!
    That was allowed by the Europhiles - eventually - because they thought they'd win.
    Yes, the referendum was a silly idea. The mantra should always have been: if you want to quit the EU then vote UKIP in sufficient numbers; parliamentary sovereignty and all that. That approach would have been democratically watertight and saved us a raft of problems.
    Not at all. We vote for individual MPs not for parties. And lots of people voted for individual MPs who put in their manifestos that they would support a referendum on EU membership. That was the democratic way to do things. All the rest is just you and your fellow travellers being bad losers.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    MattW said:

    @NickPalmer

    Thanks for the piece.

    Can I take you off-topic slightly?

    How do you compare the activity around HMQ's 70th Jubilee this year, and the corresponding ones for Queen Margrethe II's 50th Jubilee in Denmark, also this year?
    (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Jubilee_of_Margrethe_II)

    Not really close enough to either to give a qualified opinion! In general I'd expect the Danes to do some worthy events and otherwise be a bit more relaxed than us, but I don't honestly know.
    Was sailing in Lofoten in 2018 and tapped up at a tiny fishing village with an art gallery which was having an opening of a joint exhibition by Queen Sonja, who turned up in the Royal yacht, and the keyboardist from Aha. Security was the two local bobbies, and after half an hour the gallery was opened to the public, with unlimited access to the very good champagne. This would have happened differently in the UK
  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,908

    Leon said:

    So the French are blaming the Liverpool supporters

    The French and quite a few on pb are blaming the Liverpool supporters.
    I saw nothing yesterday to suggest Liverpool supporters behaved badly and remember I have been a Man Utd supporter for near 70 years
    Apart from the multiple videos of Liverpool fans climbing high fences and then sprinting into the stadium? Apart from them, then?
    It has been a really, really tough call for the Daily Mail.

    Should they go for the xenophobic angle: "Bungling Inspector Clouseau messes up at the Stade de France. Frogs let our lads down at Dunkirk in 39, and let our lads down again at Paris. That's the EU for you, better off out."

    Or the class war angle : "Drunken Scouse yobs without tickets stealing hubcaps and beating up innocent bystanders. Always causing trouble. Lotta them knew they were buying fake tiks.. it's in their DNA."

    The DM went for xenophobia ...
    The more I look at the videos, the more I believe the Mail is right in this instance, indeed they could have been a lot more Daily Mail-y given the obvious race angle

    Another one


    "English supporter beaten to the ground by a dozen individuals to steal his cell phone and wallet. Hello #DarmaninDemission
    #UEFAChampionsLeagueFINAL"


    https://twitter.com/Chancla_Div/status/1530887018078777345?s=20&t=HZas2nd4LhU3ya_bOhqKaQ
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    Lord Howard (age 80) on R4 saying issue in Paris was closed gates and not late arrivals of fans. Praised Liverpool fans who said they would look after his wife (age 82) who he got separated from.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,908

    Leon said:

    boulay said:

    ..

    Leon said:

    So the French are blaming the Liverpool supporters

    The French and quite a few on pb are blaming the Liverpool supporters.
    I saw nothing yesterday to suggest Liverpool supporters behaved badly and remember I have been a Man Utd supporter for near 70 years
    Apart from the multiple videos of Liverpool fans climbing high fences and then sprinting into the stadium? Apart from them, then?
    The Today programme had Julien Laurent on this morning - a well respectedFrench football journalist.

    He was there and was absolutely totally blaming it on the French police and bad organisation.

    He was brutal about the behaviour of the French police - he pointed out that they never fail to use violence and gas with crowds whenever possible. He said that the police had treated the two sets of fans very differently with the arrival to the Liverpool fans end turned into a funnel by police vans to restrict width to three people and various causeways closed off from the metro to the ground.

    He was clear that none of the herding or problems were created for the Real Madrid fans and was clear that it was based on historic behaviour wrongly as much worse fan violence is happening week in and week out in French football.

    Finally he was absolutely full of praise for the Liverpool fans that they kept their cool even after the queuing followed by tear gas and was amazed they didn’t react.

    This was a respected French journalist who covers all the big football matches - has no need to defend Liverpool fans etc.

    A good Spectator article sums it all up


    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/marine-le-pen-is-right-about-liverpool-fans


    I tend to blame, in descending order


    Equal first: Ugly French locals and ugly French police
    UEFA for not anticipating this
    Silly Scousers turning up ticketless and trying to get in
    Macron (just because)
    I am disappointed to see no fragment of blame attached to Woke. You can do better..
    TBH I just completely forgot Woke. Must be the benign mood induced by beautiful and very unWoke Tbilisi
  • JohnLilburneJohnLilburne Posts: 6,230

    Applicant said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Cicero said:

    The response to this is "restore Imperial measurements". In otherwords, impose further costs on the UK economy for no economic gain whatsoever. Basically no one under the age of 60 has been taught the rules of the Imperial system, it is the kind of nostalgia that allows people in the their fifties to talk about the Second World War as though they had anything to do with it. This is a government that thinks going back to the 70s or even the 50s is the solution to their political ills.

    Britian has got to escape this absurdity. The nostalgia trap will see us relegated to the lowest economic leagues. The fact that Johnson is doing it to try to save his own worthless political life is simply contemptible.

    Allowing imperial measurements doesn't impose any costs at all because nobody is obliged to use them if they don't want to.

    What's absurd is not giving up on imposing metric conformity but the hysterical reactions of people who engage in this kind of national psychoanalysis. What you're doing is not all that far removed from Maria Zakharova condemning Ukraine for wanting to claim borscht for itself.
    What is absurd is banging on about it as though it is an important subject for government to intervene on, but that is what populist apologists for Johnson are doing.
    TBOBS - "Tangible Benefits of Brexit" - are so thin on the ground, though, that one has to take what one can get. In this case the visceral thrill of being able to buy a pound of King Edwards.
    Ah, but it's the IBOBS that count. The Intangible Benefits of Brexit

    Being a free man in a free country. Walking tall, like an American citizen in 1779, inhaling the pure forest air of independence.

    We now own our mistakes. Boris Johnson might well be one of them. So we hurl him out of office. We cannot do that to Ursula of the Lying, the Unilateral Imposer of Article 16, but we don't have to worry any more, she has no power over us. We are free

    In time, Intangible Benefits like Freedom and Independence tend to turn into Tangible Benefits. But it can take a while (Ireland took at least sixty years), so: brace
    We were perfectly free before you plonker. Otherwise how did we manage to decide for ourselves to have the referendum Duh!
    That was allowed by the Europhiles - eventually - because they thought they'd win.
    Yes, the referendum was a silly idea. The mantra should always have been: if you want to quit the EU then vote UKIP in sufficient numbers; parliamentary sovereignty and all that. That approach would have been democratically watertight and saved us a raft of problems.
    A UKIP government would have been... interesting.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 22,887
    edited May 2022

    Carnyx said:

    Applicant said:

    Carnyx said:

    Farooq said:

    'Ok guys, jus' spitballing here, but what if we try tunnels again, only in a different place?'

    'Genius, trebles all round!'





    Great! They work in Norway and the Faroes. Once again the UK is backwards when it comes to infrastructure.
    How many Islands?.... How many tunnels?

    Compared to a few ferries now and again?

    Tunnels are always going to be better than ferries, due to not having to worry about the weather. Which is why the Greenwich foot tunnel was built during the reign of Queen Victoria.

    I don't see any particular reason why the Orkney and Shetland Islands shouldn't follow the Faroes in having tunnels between some of the islands.
    There's a tunnel in Greenwich that's only 30cm long?
    Rotherhithe tunnel was earlier IIRC. Brunel sen and jun innit.
    I've walked through the Greenwich and Woolwich tunnels. Not Rotherhithe, yet.

    https://www.ianvisits.co.uk/articles/walking-through-a-tunnel-under-the-thames-part-1-11764/
    Only done Greenwich!

    IIRC Rotherhithe might be tricky to walk through without being fried by accident. It was converted to a Tube line at some point, though I've been on the train through it. Not sure about current situation with all the changes.
    The air quality is terrible, driving with windows open would make me feel ill, so it would be a terrible place to walk. I have seen the odd pedestrian but that is probably once every 50 trips. Cyclists are also fairly rare but a disaster to traffic flow as the exits are longish and uphill and nowhere to overtake them so one cyclist will add several minutes to a couple of hundred cars.
    With unusual foresight the Clyde Tunnel builders constructed separate pedestrian/cyclist tunnels running parallel to the main ones. Pretty horrible and scary, mind.
    The Clyde solution is great.

    I don't see much of a problem with sloped exits for cyclists, as the depth of Thames Tunnels is minimal. As ever it is about separating the 3 modes of travel on public highways - basics that should have been done for the last half century.

    The way to deal with vehicle fumes is either no vehicles, or electric vehicles.

    The recent creation of more pedestrian / cycle bridges, as we have seen with the conversion of Hammersmith Bridge, is excellent.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,152

    It's possible that we are at 54 letters or will be in the next day or so but Brady holds back the announcement until next week when Parliament is back. He's perfectly entitled to do so.

    https://twitter.com/Samfr/status/1531245396474871808

    What timetable works better for BoJo? Draw it out, or quick'n'dirty?

    (Last night, Sam F noted that promising noises on grammar schools were the sort of thing likely to tickle the tummy of Sir Graham Brady.)
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,256

    3rd rate - like this government (if only…)



    ydoethur said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Morning all! Interesting to read that MPs may want to speak to Mrs Johnson - mainly because the press can't. There is a black hole which although light cannot escape it (because of the rumoured super-injunction) can at least be seen because of its impact.

    Wasn't the last time Mrs Johnson was seen when Bonzo was physically dragging her down the road to vote in the local elections...?

    Oh fuck there's another one is there about ......... running off with ....?

    Don't see it affects us if we haven't been served with it.
    Thing I've never understood about superinjunctions.

    If people don't know they exist, what's the mechanism that makes them effective?
    My favourite one was the Ryan Giggs one, which everyone knew about within about a week, and Joshua Rozenberg began a BBC analysis of it with these immortal words.

    'Well, the law is clear. There's a court order in place which says we cannot name Ryan Giggs as the holder of this superinjunction.'
    Talking of superinjunctions, I was chatting with a non-political friend in Glasgow yesterday who claimed that Sturgeon’s absence from public life is nothing to do with COVID but in fact a result of the #BalmoralHotelIncident and consequent bruising (which is almost certainly rubbish as the alleged “incident” has been doing the rounds for ages) - but it does show how some of this “bubble” rubbish can cut through.
    She did not want to meet her old ex - pal again , poor old Macbeth got sent instead.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 22,887

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    'Ok guys, jus' spitballing here, but what if we try tunnels again, only in a different place?'

    'Genius, trebles all round!'





    Great! They work in Norway and the Faroes. Once again the UK is backwards when it comes to infrastructure.
    How many Islands?.... How many tunnels?

    Compared to a few ferries now and again?

    Tunnels are always going to be better than ferries, due to not having to worry about the weather. Which is why the Greenwich foot tunnel was built during the reign of Queen Victoria.

    I don't see any particular reason why the Orkney and Shetland Islands shouldn't follow the Faroes in having tunnels between some of the islands.
    I'd say that the people suggesting it are short term political kite flyers rather than strategic planners, so a good reason for it almost definitely not happening (though not a bad idea per se).
    Makes fair sense for the Shetland main island axis; though one would want to check how deeply glaciated the lateral troughs were. Orkney is more scattered, and the Churchill Barriers already connect the main ring around Scapa, apart from Hoy. A tunnel to the mainland would make some sense, esp if from Hoy to Thurso (and back to Stromness). But I don't think the UK boosters are really thinking: rail tunnels across the Dornoch Firth, Cromarty Firth (from Invergordon) and Kessock Narrows would be a huge improvement all round.
    For that matter a rail tunnel under the Firth of Forth to relieve capacity and fatigue loading on the Forth Bridge. There will have been enough studies done for the Queensferry Crossing, and as the Scots generally seem to deliver most such projects on time and within budget (rail electrification, Q. Crossing) in marked contrast to the DfT, it could be quite promising.
    "and as the Scots generally seem to deliver most such projects on time and within budget"

    The unfinished ferries at Ferguson's say "hi".
    Holyrood Parliament Building also says hi.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 28,871

    Sky reporting Jeremy Wright concludes Boris should resign

    Keep it coming folks

    We've been told repeatedly told by various sources that the Gray Report was one massive anti-climax (just Boris and some naff sandwiches). So why are an increasing number of Tory MPs demanding he quit? Do they not appreciate that Boris was vindicated, or are there ulterior motives at play?
    Maybe they haven't read it.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,908
    A Liverpool fan writes on Twitter

    "Then when you think, ah well that's over at least we are in, leaving the ground. Not one single lesson was learnt. Everyone of us funnels through 2 tiny gates straight into absolute hundreds of gangs of locals armed with knives attempting to slash anyone they could get near"

    Quite a thread


    https://twitter.com/ozzylfc19x/status/1530818591704104960?s=20&t=HZas2nd4LhU3ya_bOhqKaQ


    The Ugly Face of Modern France
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 13,400
    edited May 2022

    Sky reporting Jeremy Wright concludes Boris should resign

    Keep it coming folks

    We've been told repeatedly told by various sources that the Gray Report was one massive anti-climax (just Boris and some naff sandwiches). So why are an increasing number of Tory MPs demanding he quit? Do they not appreciate that Boris was vindicated, or are there ulterior motives at play?
    Just some sandwiches in the report photo, how convenient. But there was A proper do later, all hushed up and denied, but the Telegraph is playing straight bat now with the details unlike the ridiculous Mail. Last week revealed The ABBA rave mysteriously only partially investigated by both Gray and MET. The new revelation of vomit and wine over the office and abused cleaning and security staff, with no one yet reprimanded. It wasn’t an anti climax last week, it was a whole new depth of disappointment in Boris and his shameless “we do what we like” yobs he encouraged rather than properly led, the penny is now dropping for those with a sense of decency isn’t it.
  • FlatlanderFlatlander Posts: 4,622
    edited May 2022
    IshmaelZ said:

    MattW said:

    @NickPalmer

    Thanks for the piece.

    Can I take you off-topic slightly?

    How do you compare the activity around HMQ's 70th Jubilee this year, and the corresponding ones for Queen Margrethe II's 50th Jubilee in Denmark, also this year?
    (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Jubilee_of_Margrethe_II)

    Not really close enough to either to give a qualified opinion! In general I'd expect the Danes to do some worthy events and otherwise be a bit more relaxed than us, but I don't honestly know.
    Was sailing in Lofoten in 2018 and tapped up at a tiny fishing village with an art gallery which was having an opening of a joint exhibition by Queen Sonja, who turned up in the Royal yacht, and the keyboardist from Aha. Security was the two local bobbies, and after half an hour the gallery was opened to the public, with unlimited access to the very good champagne. This would have happened differently in the UK
    I once climbed a steep mountain in western Norway - glacier and all, so ropes required - and on reaching the summit found that they kept a log book for climbers in a waterproof box in the very small cairn.

    The latest page to be filled in had 'Sonja' scrawled across it - dated the week before.

    We decided to move on to the next blank page.

    She was apparently a ski instructor in a previous life...
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    A French journalist travelling in a vehicle marked as "humanitarian aid" was killed in the Donbas region today after the vehicle came under fire by Russian forces. Working to confirm what area this was in.

    https://twitter.com/kylejglen/status/1531247187396550657?

    GRAPHIC IMAGES

    Looks like a UK truck too.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,908
    And just to show this is not some hymn-booer giving a biased perspective, an equally alarming and even more illuminating thread from a MADRID fan


    "Hence the delay in the start of the match.
    6. At the exit of the stadium, the subject has already been completely crazy. The same criminals were at the exit of the stadium in groups of 30-40 people rushing against Madridista families to rob them and more things. In fact, 👇🏻"

    https://twitter.com/moscardol/status/1530694233346166785?s=20&t=HZas2nd4LhU3ya_bOhqKaQ
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,831
    edited May 2022
    Leon said:

    A Liverpool fan writes on Twitter

    "Then when you think, ah well that's over at least we are in, leaving the ground. Not one single lesson was learnt. Everyone of us funnels through 2 tiny gates straight into absolute hundreds of gangs of locals armed with knives attempting to slash anyone they could get near"

    Quite a thread


    https://twitter.com/ozzylfc19x/status/1530818591704104960?s=20&t=HZas2nd4LhU3ya_bOhqKaQ


    The Ugly Face of Modern France

    Hmm.

    Liverpool fans queuing patiently in Area A, bunch of "locals" steams in, overwhelms security, etc. Liverpool fans look on disapprovingly.

    Now let's imagine you are plod on this. Special Plod Group, perhaps, so you are on it. You get a report of a disturbance in Area A. You rush to Area A and all you can see are Liverpool fans....

    Now, neither of us were there so we don't really know what went down but let's not do that twitter thing of assessing the entire issue and opining definitively what happened on the evidence of three tweets. Please.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,011

    Applicant said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Cicero said:

    The response to this is "restore Imperial measurements". In otherwords, impose further costs on the UK economy for no economic gain whatsoever. Basically no one under the age of 60 has been taught the rules of the Imperial system, it is the kind of nostalgia that allows people in the their fifties to talk about the Second World War as though they had anything to do with it. This is a government that thinks going back to the 70s or even the 50s is the solution to their political ills.

    Britian has got to escape this absurdity. The nostalgia trap will see us relegated to the lowest economic leagues. The fact that Johnson is doing it to try to save his own worthless political life is simply contemptible.

    Allowing imperial measurements doesn't impose any costs at all because nobody is obliged to use them if they don't want to.

    What's absurd is not giving up on imposing metric conformity but the hysterical reactions of people who engage in this kind of national psychoanalysis. What you're doing is not all that far removed from Maria Zakharova condemning Ukraine for wanting to claim borscht for itself.
    What is absurd is banging on about it as though it is an important subject for government to intervene on, but that is what populist apologists for Johnson are doing.
    TBOBS - "Tangible Benefits of Brexit" - are so thin on the ground, though, that one has to take what one can get. In this case the visceral thrill of being able to buy a pound of King Edwards.
    Ah, but it's the IBOBS that count. The Intangible Benefits of Brexit

    Being a free man in a free country. Walking tall, like an American citizen in 1779, inhaling the pure forest air of independence.

    We now own our mistakes. Boris Johnson might well be one of them. So we hurl him out of office. We cannot do that to Ursula of the Lying, the Unilateral Imposer of Article 16, but we don't have to worry any more, she has no power over us. We are free

    In time, Intangible Benefits like Freedom and Independence tend to turn into Tangible Benefits. But it can take a while (Ireland took at least sixty years), so: brace
    We were perfectly free before you plonker. Otherwise how did we manage to decide for ourselves to have the referendum Duh!
    That was allowed by the Europhiles - eventually - because they thought they'd win.
    Yes, the referendum was a silly idea. The mantra should always have been: if you want to quit the EU then vote UKIP in sufficient numbers; parliamentary sovereignty and all that. That approach would have been democratically watertight and saved us a raft of problems.
    Was about to leap in and point out the obvious downside that such a message might have led to PM Farage - but then I considered what the Cameron approach did lead to and decided not such a strong point after all.
  • ApplicantApplicant Posts: 3,379

    It's possible that we are at 54 letters or will be in the next day or so but Brady holds back the announcement until next week when Parliament is back. He's perfectly entitled to do so.

    https://twitter.com/Samfr/status/1531245396474871808

    I reckon he will announce straight away, call it for early next week. They can even do the ballot remotely without having to vote in person.
    Interestingly, the Institure for Government says: The no confidence vote is then scheduled by the chair in consultation with the party leader. I'm not sure what exactly "consultation" would involve.

    https://www.instituteforgovernment.org.uk/explainers/conservative-party-leadership-contests
  • MattWMattW Posts: 22,887
    edited May 2022
    Unusual from Comical Dave:



  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,908
    TOPPING said:

    Leon said:

    A Liverpool fan writes on Twitter

    "Then when you think, ah well that's over at least we are in, leaving the ground. Not one single lesson was learnt. Everyone of us funnels through 2 tiny gates straight into absolute hundreds of gangs of locals armed with knives attempting to slash anyone they could get near"

    Quite a thread


    https://twitter.com/ozzylfc19x/status/1530818591704104960?s=20&t=HZas2nd4LhU3ya_bOhqKaQ


    The Ugly Face of Modern France

    Hmm.

    Liverpool fans queuing patiently in Area A, bunch of "locals" steams in, overwhelms security, etc. Liverpool fans look on disapprovingly.

    Now let's imagine you are plod on this. Special Plod Group, perhaps, so you are on it. You get a report of a disturbance in Area A. You rush to Area A and all you can see are Liverpool fans....

    Now, neither of us were there so we don't really know what went down but let's not do that twitter thing of assessing the entire issue and opining definitively what happened on the evidence of three tweets. Please.
    Except that exactly the same thing happened to the Madrid fans, as I have just proved. Do try and keep up

    The French govt are desperate to blame Les Anglais because this is a real fucking disaster, politically, for Macron
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 13,400
    Applicant said:

    It's possible that we are at 54 letters or will be in the next day or so but Brady holds back the announcement until next week when Parliament is back. He's perfectly entitled to do so.

    https://twitter.com/Samfr/status/1531245396474871808

    I reckon he will announce straight away, call it for early next week. They can even do the ballot remotely without having to vote in person.
    Interestingly, the Institure for Government says: The no confidence vote is then scheduled by the chair in consultation with the party leader. I'm not sure what exactly "consultation" would involve.

    https://www.instituteforgovernment.org.uk/explainers/conservative-party-leadership-contests
    Brady goes in to consult. Doesn’t come out.

    Later Suitcase put into back of car, and driven off.
  • ApplicantApplicant Posts: 3,379

    A French journalist travelling in a vehicle marked as "humanitarian aid" was killed in the Donbas region today after the vehicle came under fire by Russian forces. Working to confirm what area this was in.

    https://twitter.com/kylejglen/status/1531247187396550657?

    GRAPHIC IMAGES

    Looks like a UK truck too.

    Definitely a UK numberplate for a vehicle that the public-facing DVLA database seems to match the lorry in the picture. But it's SORN...
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,781
    MattW said:

    Unusual from Comical Dave:



    I was hoping we had heard the last of Comical Dave now the EU has stopped playing silly buggers over covid vaccines....
  • ApplicantApplicant Posts: 3,379
    MattW said:

    Unusual from Comical Dave:



    Where do Moldovans go to?
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,011
    tlg86 said:

    Naughty BBC. They just showed a shot of empty seats in the Liverpool end and implied that it was at 20:36 BST (i.e. the actual kick off). The pictures they were showing from around just after 20:00.

    Which was the scheduled kick off. I've seen naughtier. That's "fields of wheat" territory.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,831
    Leon said:

    TOPPING said:

    Leon said:

    A Liverpool fan writes on Twitter

    "Then when you think, ah well that's over at least we are in, leaving the ground. Not one single lesson was learnt. Everyone of us funnels through 2 tiny gates straight into absolute hundreds of gangs of locals armed with knives attempting to slash anyone they could get near"

    Quite a thread


    https://twitter.com/ozzylfc19x/status/1530818591704104960?s=20&t=HZas2nd4LhU3ya_bOhqKaQ


    The Ugly Face of Modern France

    Hmm.

    Liverpool fans queuing patiently in Area A, bunch of "locals" steams in, overwhelms security, etc. Liverpool fans look on disapprovingly.

    Now let's imagine you are plod on this. Special Plod Group, perhaps, so you are on it. You get a report of a disturbance in Area A. You rush to Area A and all you can see are Liverpool fans....

    Now, neither of us were there so we don't really know what went down but let's not do that twitter thing of assessing the entire issue and opining definitively what happened on the evidence of three tweets. Please.
    Except that exactly the same thing happened to the Madrid fans, as I have just proved. Do try and keep up

    The French govt are desperate to blame Les Anglais because this is a real fucking disaster, politically, for Macron
    Crowd control at a football match is a disaster for Macron?

    LOL seriously?

    Have any of the millions of egregious violations of law by UK plod been a disaster for any UK PM?
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,872
    There's no idiot like an auld ex-footballer idiot who thinks everyone wants to hear his barely sentient thoughts about abolutely everything.


  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,256
    MattW said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    'Ok guys, jus' spitballing here, but what if we try tunnels again, only in a different place?'

    'Genius, trebles all round!'





    Great! They work in Norway and the Faroes. Once again the UK is backwards when it comes to infrastructure.
    How many Islands?.... How many tunnels?

    Compared to a few ferries now and again?

    Tunnels are always going to be better than ferries, due to not having to worry about the weather. Which is why the Greenwich foot tunnel was built during the reign of Queen Victoria.

    I don't see any particular reason why the Orkney and Shetland Islands shouldn't follow the Faroes in having tunnels between some of the islands.
    I'd say that the people suggesting it are short term political kite flyers rather than strategic planners, so a good reason for it almost definitely not happening (though not a bad idea per se).
    Makes fair sense for the Shetland main island axis; though one would want to check how deeply glaciated the lateral troughs were. Orkney is more scattered, and the Churchill Barriers already connect the main ring around Scapa, apart from Hoy. A tunnel to the mainland would make some sense, esp if from Hoy to Thurso (and back to Stromness). But I don't think the UK boosters are really thinking: rail tunnels across the Dornoch Firth, Cromarty Firth (from Invergordon) and Kessock Narrows would be a huge improvement all round.
    For that matter a rail tunnel under the Firth of Forth to relieve capacity and fatigue loading on the Forth Bridge. There will have been enough studies done for the Queensferry Crossing, and as the Scots generally seem to deliver most such projects on time and within budget (rail electrification, Q. Crossing) in marked contrast to the DfT, it could be quite promising.
    "and as the Scots generally seem to deliver most such projects on time and within budget"

    The unfinished ferries at Ferguson's say "hi".
    Holyrood Parliament Building also says hi.
    Ferries is a Sturgeon clusterfcuk for sure but Holyrood was just badness by London Labour. At least it heralded their doom, a London stitch up too far and they got their just desserts handed to them.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,781
    edited May 2022
    Leon said:

    TOPPING said:

    Leon said:

    A Liverpool fan writes on Twitter

    "Then when you think, ah well that's over at least we are in, leaving the ground. Not one single lesson was learnt. Everyone of us funnels through 2 tiny gates straight into absolute hundreds of gangs of locals armed with knives attempting to slash anyone they could get near"

    Quite a thread


    https://twitter.com/ozzylfc19x/status/1530818591704104960?s=20&t=HZas2nd4LhU3ya_bOhqKaQ


    The Ugly Face of Modern France

    Hmm.

    Liverpool fans queuing patiently in Area A, bunch of "locals" steams in, overwhelms security, etc. Liverpool fans look on disapprovingly.

    Now let's imagine you are plod on this. Special Plod Group, perhaps, so you are on it. You get a report of a disturbance in Area A. You rush to Area A and all you can see are Liverpool fans....

    Now, neither of us were there so we don't really know what went down but let's not do that twitter thing of assessing the entire issue and opining definitively what happened on the evidence of three tweets. Please.
    Except that exactly the same thing happened to the Madrid fans, as I have just proved. Do try and keep up

    The French govt are desperate to blame Les Anglais because this is a real fucking disaster, politically, for Macron
    The fact you see time and time again big groups of 50-100 of North African appearance speaking fluent French not wearing any football colours who are right up in and around the stadium gates, says the whole security operation has failed. They are clearly not the Moroccan Liverpool Supporters Association and certainly not English, I mean Scouse, fans.

    The other tell tale sign they are locals, when they see the first hint of the French riot police they run away, because they know the tear gas and beatings are coming.

    Putting aside when the security failed at Wembley last summer, if you go to game, you can't get anywhere near as close as that to the stadium as a rando with no ticket.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,575
    Hardline conservative Peter Dutton is elected unopposed as the new Leader of the Australian Liberal Party after Scott Morrison's resignation and will be Leader of the Opposition to the Labor government of new PM Albanese.

    https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-05-30/peter-dutton-new-liberal-leader-press-conference/101109716

    David Littleproud defeats former Leader Barnaby Joyce meanwhile to be elected new Leader of the National Party, the minor party in the centre right Coalition

    https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-05-30/barnaby-joyce-out-david-littleproud-elected-to-lead-nationals/101109494
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 13,400
    edited May 2022
    TOPPING said:

    Leon said:

    TOPPING said:

    Leon said:

    A Liverpool fan writes on Twitter

    "Then when you think, ah well that's over at least we are in, leaving the ground. Not one single lesson was learnt. Everyone of us funnels through 2 tiny gates straight into absolute hundreds of gangs of locals armed with knives attempting to slash anyone they could get near"

    Quite a thread


    https://twitter.com/ozzylfc19x/status/1530818591704104960?s=20&t=HZas2nd4LhU3ya_bOhqKaQ


    The Ugly Face of Modern France

    Hmm.

    Liverpool fans queuing patiently in Area A, bunch of "locals" steams in, overwhelms security, etc. Liverpool fans look on disapprovingly.

    Now let's imagine you are plod on this. Special Plod Group, perhaps, so you are on it. You get a report of a disturbance in Area A. You rush to Area A and all you can see are Liverpool fans....

    Now, neither of us were there so we don't really know what went down but let's not do that twitter thing of assessing the entire issue and opining definitively what happened on the evidence of three tweets. Please.
    Except that exactly the same thing happened to the Madrid fans, as I have just proved. Do try and keep up

    The French govt are desperate to blame Les Anglais because this is a real fucking disaster, politically, for Macron
    Crowd control at a football match is a disaster for Macron?

    LOL seriously?

    Have any of the millions of egregious violations of law by UK plod been a disaster for any UK PM?
    Then where do you think Liverpool fans will get near perfect fakes on mass quantity and not realise they are holding a fake? By my understanding of French, their Home Secretary is on record saying 75% of paper tickets in Liverpool fans hands are proven fake.

    More use of eTicket might be a sensible thing in future?
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,376
    edited May 2022
    Just reading free newspaper The Light. ("The Uncensored Truth").
    A curious melange.

    Pro PRC, Russia, Christianity (but not the "official" bit), self-sufficiency, organic back-to-nature, fossil fuels, Capitalism, Corbyn.

    Anti vaccine, 5g, climate change, socialism, BBC, post-1974 county boundaries, Ukraine, WHO, Israel.

    Bigs up both Chris Chope and Piers Corbyn.
    Who's funding?
    I can have a guess.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 22,887
    edited May 2022
    TOPPING said:

    Leon said:

    A Liverpool fan writes on Twitter

    "Then when you think, ah well that's over at least we are in, leaving the ground. Not one single lesson was learnt. Everyone of us funnels through 2 tiny gates straight into absolute hundreds of gangs of locals armed with knives attempting to slash anyone they could get near"

    Quite a thread


    https://twitter.com/ozzylfc19x/status/1530818591704104960?s=20&t=HZas2nd4LhU3ya_bOhqKaQ


    The Ugly Face of Modern France

    Hmm.

    Liverpool fans queuing patiently in Area A, bunch of "locals" steams in, overwhelms security, etc. Liverpool fans look on disapprovingly.

    Now let's imagine you are plod on this. Special Plod Group, perhaps, so you are on it. You get a report of a disturbance in Area A. You rush to Area A and all you can see are Liverpool fans....

    Now, neither of us were there so we don't really know what went down but let's not do that twitter thing of assessing the entire issue and opining definitively what happened on the evidence of three tweets. Please.
    Watching France24, they seem to be calling out the French Police for teargassing groups of waiting fans with nowhere to run to, for not following agreed international policing behaviour standards, and the Parisian Authorities for not being to organise a football match in a National Stadium.

    And asking questions about the Olympics.

    Where are the French Govt blaming Liverpool fans (which TBH I would expect, but then I'm an evidence-based cynic where the French Govt is concerned)?
  • Pro_RataPro_Rata Posts: 5,272
    edited May 2022
    Applicant said:

    MattW said:

    Unusual from Comical Dave:



    Where do Moldovans go to?
    Reads as Romania as far as my glasses can tell.

    Nice of the Icelandic government to sail their entire island to Spain for the benefit of holidaymakers. Bet that saves some airport chaos.
  • If rumours are believed above and Tories getting destroyed in Wakefield, then we must not dismiss a Labour landslide
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,142
    kinabalu said:

    tlg86 said:

    Naughty BBC. They just showed a shot of empty seats in the Liverpool end and implied that it was at 20:36 BST (i.e. the actual kick off). The pictures they were showing from around just after 20:00.

    Which was the scheduled kick off. I've seen naughtier. That's "fields of wheat" territory.
    They said despite a 36 minute delay, there were still lots of empty seats at kick off and showed footage from before 20:36.

    But there's some interesting videos on the net, like this one:

    https://twitter.com/Fordman_R/status/1530685722591735810

    The tricky thing is trying to marry up the numbers inside the ground and what was going on outside the ground. Clearly quite a lot of Liverpool fans made it into the ground well before kick off, but it's hard to say whether the delay to others was because a lot arrived late together, possibly with some with fake tickets, or because it was a shit show from the French police.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,908
    TOPPING said:

    Leon said:

    TOPPING said:

    Leon said:

    A Liverpool fan writes on Twitter

    "Then when you think, ah well that's over at least we are in, leaving the ground. Not one single lesson was learnt. Everyone of us funnels through 2 tiny gates straight into absolute hundreds of gangs of locals armed with knives attempting to slash anyone they could get near"

    Quite a thread


    https://twitter.com/ozzylfc19x/status/1530818591704104960?s=20&t=HZas2nd4LhU3ya_bOhqKaQ


    The Ugly Face of Modern France

    Hmm.

    Liverpool fans queuing patiently in Area A, bunch of "locals" steams in, overwhelms security, etc. Liverpool fans look on disapprovingly.

    Now let's imagine you are plod on this. Special Plod Group, perhaps, so you are on it. You get a report of a disturbance in Area A. You rush to Area A and all you can see are Liverpool fans....

    Now, neither of us were there so we don't really know what went down but let's not do that twitter thing of assessing the entire issue and opining definitively what happened on the evidence of three tweets. Please.
    Except that exactly the same thing happened to the Madrid fans, as I have just proved. Do try and keep up

    The French govt are desperate to blame Les Anglais because this is a real fucking disaster, politically, for Macron
    Crowd control at a football match is a disaster for Macron?

    LOL seriously?

    Have any of the millions of egregious violations of law by UK plod been a disaster for any UK PM?
    Oui. It's causing a major political storm in France. Not because it is footie violence but because it makes France look really bad. This is also headline news in Spain

    Le Pen is all over it. And this is just before the elex

    A former French Minister -on the left- also tweets (she blames French organisation and police)

    https://twitter.com/CecileDuflot/status/1530850642415300608?s=20&t=HZas2nd4LhU3ya_bOhqKaQ
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,575

    If rumours are believed above and Tories getting destroyed in Wakefield, then we must not dismiss a Labour landslide

    Hardly, even Gordon Brown and Ed Miliband and Corbyn in 2017 won Wakefield. It was just the scale of the Tory landslide in 2019 that meant Labour lost it in the first place
  • pingping Posts: 3,805
    edited May 2022
    Applicant said:

    MattW said:

    Unusual from Comical Dave:



    Where do Moldovans go to?
    From Chișinău to Bucharest!

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=93mpIFeQ4f4
  • HYUFD said:

    If rumours are believed above and Tories getting destroyed in Wakefield, then we must not dismiss a Labour landslide

    Hardly, even Gordon Brown and Ed Miliband and Corbyn in 2017 won Wakefield. It was just the scale of the Tory landslide in 2019 that meant Labour lost it in the first place
    If it’s much worse than YouGov model then yes we must not dismiss it
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 28,871

    If rumours are believed above and Tories getting destroyed in Wakefield, then we must not dismiss a Labour landslide

    I did say bet on an acca to have LD and Lab wins on 23rd June. But that isn't the same as a Labour landslide: no Scotland recovery, still in trouble in the midlands, no chance in most southern seats.

    If Bonzo remains in place then I expect a Labour minority government supported by unofficial confidence and supply arrangements with the LDs and probably most parties that aren't the DUP. Then everyone realised collegiate politics is brilliant and we get a new electoral system.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,376

    If rumours are believed above and Tories getting destroyed in Wakefield, then we must not dismiss a Labour landslide

    Would have to be a total destruction to point to a landslide.
    Nevertheless. It's the more important of the two by-elections.
    There is a residual belief that Boris has a magical hotline to the Brexit north. Reinforced by Hartlepool.
    However. That coincided with Peak Boris, as astutely spotted on here. It's a view which is oft repeated, but supported by no polling evidence whatsoever. (Midlands is different).
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,422
    edited May 2022
    HYUFD said:

    If rumours are believed above and Tories getting destroyed in Wakefield, then we must not dismiss a Labour landslide

    Hardly, even Gordon Brown and Ed Miliband and Corbyn in 2017 won Wakefield. It was just the scale of the Tory landslide in 2019 that meant Labour lost it in the first place
    Wakefield South is the best Tory ward in Wakefield but in 2010 it was moved into the Hemsworth constituency. That's why it was surprising the Conservatives managed to win the seat in 2019.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,781
    edited May 2022

    HYUFD said:

    If rumours are believed above and Tories getting destroyed in Wakefield, then we must not dismiss a Labour landslide

    Hardly, even Gordon Brown and Ed Miliband and Corbyn in 2017 won Wakefield. It was just the scale of the Tory landslide in 2019 that meant Labour lost it in the first place
    If it’s much worse than YouGov model then yes we must not dismiss it
    I think you have to rather factor in this isn't a by-election because the local MP died, its because of noncing. I imagine rather hard sell that the locals put trust in Tories, which historically is far from a given and the new bloke turns out to have sexually assaulted kids. That is going to torpedo any parties campaign locally.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,908
    MattW said:

    TOPPING said:

    Leon said:

    A Liverpool fan writes on Twitter

    "Then when you think, ah well that's over at least we are in, leaving the ground. Not one single lesson was learnt. Everyone of us funnels through 2 tiny gates straight into absolute hundreds of gangs of locals armed with knives attempting to slash anyone they could get near"

    Quite a thread


    https://twitter.com/ozzylfc19x/status/1530818591704104960?s=20&t=HZas2nd4LhU3ya_bOhqKaQ


    The Ugly Face of Modern France

    Hmm.

    Liverpool fans queuing patiently in Area A, bunch of "locals" steams in, overwhelms security, etc. Liverpool fans look on disapprovingly.

    Now let's imagine you are plod on this. Special Plod Group, perhaps, so you are on it. You get a report of a disturbance in Area A. You rush to Area A and all you can see are Liverpool fans....

    Now, neither of us were there so we don't really know what went down but let's not do that twitter thing of assessing the entire issue and opining definitively what happened on the evidence of three tweets. Please.
    Watching France24, they seem to be calling out the French Police for teargassing groups of waiting fans with nowhere to run to, for not following agreed international policing behaviour standards, and the Parisian Authorities for not being to organise a football match in a National Stadium.

    And asking questions about the Olympics.

    Where are the French Govt blaming Liverpool fans (which TBH I would expect, but then I'm an evidence-based cynic where the French Govt is concerned)?
    One French minister has attempted to blame ticketless hymn-booers, but even centrist Macron-supporting Le Monde is not having it


    "The hope is that the international exposure of this masterful failure will finally contribute to a questioning. The distressing attempts of the police to prevent journalists from filming the most compromising scenes for them will not be enough this time."

    *A masterful failure*. Damning.

    It actually says that Liverpool fans were the reason many people did NOT die

    https://www.lemonde.fr/sport/article/2022/05/29/le-chaos-au-stade-de-france-est-l-aboutissement-des-politiques-francaises-de-gestion-des-supporteurs_6128104_3242.html
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,256
    kinabalu said:

    There's no idiot like an auld ex-footballer idiot who thinks everyone wants to hear his barely sentient thoughts about abolutely everything.


    Graeme's looking a bit rive gauche there. As if he's holding forth on 'agency versus structure" rather than on the footy.
    Lost his marbles
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    Applicant said:

    A French journalist travelling in a vehicle marked as "humanitarian aid" was killed in the Donbas region today after the vehicle came under fire by Russian forces. Working to confirm what area this was in.

    https://twitter.com/kylejglen/status/1531247187396550657?

    GRAPHIC IMAGES

    Looks like a UK truck too.

    Definitely a UK numberplate for a vehicle that the public-facing DVLA database seems to match the lorry in the picture. But it's SORN...
    Atrocity for sure, but I'd have put HUMANITARIAN AID in letters which weren't about 75% smaller than the numberplate, and not in Ukraine colours, and in Russian
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,152
    dixiedean said:

    If rumours are believed above and Tories getting destroyed in Wakefield, then we must not dismiss a Labour landslide

    Would have to be a total destruction to point to a landslide.
    Nevertheless. It's the more important of the two by-elections.
    There is a residual belief that Boris has a magical hotline to the Brexit north. Reinforced by Hartlepool.
    However. That coincided with Peak Boris, as astutely spotted on here. It's a view which is oft repeated, but supported by no polling evidence whatsoever. (Midlands is different).
    And Hartlepool had a simply massive BXP vote to hoover up.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,011
    Leon said:

    TOPPING said:

    Leon said:

    A Liverpool fan writes on Twitter

    "Then when you think, ah well that's over at least we are in, leaving the ground. Not one single lesson was learnt. Everyone of us funnels through 2 tiny gates straight into absolute hundreds of gangs of locals armed with knives attempting to slash anyone they could get near"

    Quite a thread


    https://twitter.com/ozzylfc19x/status/1530818591704104960?s=20&t=HZas2nd4LhU3ya_bOhqKaQ


    The Ugly Face of Modern France

    Hmm.

    Liverpool fans queuing patiently in Area A, bunch of "locals" steams in, overwhelms security, etc. Liverpool fans look on disapprovingly.

    Now let's imagine you are plod on this. Special Plod Group, perhaps, so you are on it. You get a report of a disturbance in Area A. You rush to Area A and all you can see are Liverpool fans....

    Now, neither of us were there so we don't really know what went down but let's not do that twitter thing of assessing the entire issue and opining definitively what happened on the evidence of three tweets. Please.
    Except that exactly the same thing happened to the Madrid fans, as I have just proved. Do try and keep up

    The French govt are desperate to blame Les Anglais because this is a real fucking disaster, politically, for Macron
    As in a fly brushing his wrist. He's just won and got his next 5 years.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,422
    edited May 2022
    Leon said:

    A Liverpool fan writes on Twitter

    "Then when you think, ah well that's over at least we are in, leaving the ground. Not one single lesson was learnt. Everyone of us funnels through 2 tiny gates straight into absolute hundreds of gangs of locals armed with knives attempting to slash anyone they could get near"

    Quite a thread


    https://twitter.com/ozzylfc19x/status/1530818591704104960?s=20&t=HZas2nd4LhU3ya_bOhqKaQ


    The Ugly Face of Modern France

    This is the sort of information that helps to explain why Le Pen got 42% of the vote recently.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,376
    HYUFD said:

    If rumours are believed above and Tories getting destroyed in Wakefield, then we must not dismiss a Labour landslide

    Hardly, even Gordon Brown and Ed Miliband and Corbyn in 2017 won Wakefield. It was just the scale of the Tory landslide in 2019 that meant Labour lost it in the first place
    Yes. Wakefield's a strange one. It was never Tory. But wasn't one of those with 60% plus Labour votes either in the last 50 years.
    Was very close to being Tory in 1983 (majority 360) and 1987.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 22,887
    malcolmg said:

    MattW said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    'Ok guys, jus' spitballing here, but what if we try tunnels again, only in a different place?'

    'Genius, trebles all round!'





    Great! They work in Norway and the Faroes. Once again the UK is backwards when it comes to infrastructure.
    How many Islands?.... How many tunnels?

    Compared to a few ferries now and again?

    Tunnels are always going to be better than ferries, due to not having to worry about the weather. Which is why the Greenwich foot tunnel was built during the reign of Queen Victoria.

    I don't see any particular reason why the Orkney and Shetland Islands shouldn't follow the Faroes in having tunnels between some of the islands.
    I'd say that the people suggesting it are short term political kite flyers rather than strategic planners, so a good reason for it almost definitely not happening (though not a bad idea per se).
    Makes fair sense for the Shetland main island axis; though one would want to check how deeply glaciated the lateral troughs were. Orkney is more scattered, and the Churchill Barriers already connect the main ring around Scapa, apart from Hoy. A tunnel to the mainland would make some sense, esp if from Hoy to Thurso (and back to Stromness). But I don't think the UK boosters are really thinking: rail tunnels across the Dornoch Firth, Cromarty Firth (from Invergordon) and Kessock Narrows would be a huge improvement all round.
    For that matter a rail tunnel under the Firth of Forth to relieve capacity and fatigue loading on the Forth Bridge. There will have been enough studies done for the Queensferry Crossing, and as the Scots generally seem to deliver most such projects on time and within budget (rail electrification, Q. Crossing) in marked contrast to the DfT, it could be quite promising.
    "and as the Scots generally seem to deliver most such projects on time and within budget"

    The unfinished ferries at Ferguson's say "hi".
    Holyrood Parliament Building also says hi.
    Ferries is a Sturgeon clusterfcuk for sure but Holyrood was just badness by London Labour. At least it heralded their doom, a London stitch up too far and they got their just desserts handed to them.
    That's fair.

    The Cardiff Senedd did OK imo.

    At the Palace of Westminster Renovation, the outcome remains to be seen - though the vanity of the politicians is already effing expensive.
  • ohnotnowohnotnow Posts: 3,742
    Carnyx said:

    Pensfold said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    'Ok guys, jus' spitballing here, but what if we try tunnels again, only in a different place?'

    'Genius, trebles all round!'





    Great! They work in Norway and the Faroes. Once again the UK is backwards when it comes to infrastructure.
    How many Islands?.... How many tunnels?

    Compared to a few ferries now and again?

    Tunnels are always going to be better than ferries, due to not having to worry about the weather. Which is why the Greenwich foot tunnel was built during the reign of Queen Victoria.

    I don't see any particular reason why the Orkney and Shetland Islands shouldn't follow the Faroes in having tunnels between some of the islands.
    I'd say that the people suggesting it are short term political kite flyers rather than strategic planners, so a good reason for it almost definitely not happening (though not a bad idea per se).
    Makes fair sense for the Shetland main island axis; though one would want to check how deeply glaciated the lateral troughs were. Orkney is more scattered, and the Churchill Barriers already connect the main ring around Scapa, apart from Hoy. A tunnel to the mainland would make some sense, esp if from Hoy to Thurso (and back to Stromness). But I don't think the UK boosters are really thinking: rail tunnels across the Dornoch Firth, Cromarty Firth (from Invergordon) and Kessock Narrows would be a huge improvement all round.
    For that matter a rail tunnel under the Firth of Forth to relieve capacity and fatigue loading on the Forth Bridge. There will have been enough studies done for the Queensferry Crossing, and as the Scots generally seem to deliver most such projects on time and within budget (rail electrification, Q. Crossing) in marked contrast to the DfT, it could be quite promising.
    "and as the Scots generally seem to deliver most such projects on time and within budget"

    The unfinished ferries at Ferguson's say "hi".
    As does the Scottish parliament building.
    London Labour enforced. The Scots wanted to reuse the Royal High School, which is still empty and looking for a role IIRC.
    Afair the school would have been used for the debating chamber and a few 'grand' offices - but they would have to have built another building for people to actually do work in. Personally, I'd have gone with that - but no idea what the costs/practicalities might have been.
  • Pro_RataPro_Rata Posts: 5,272

    If rumours are believed above and Tories getting destroyed in Wakefield, then we must not dismiss a Labour landslide

    This is broadly a restate of previous posts.

    The local council elections swung from a 5% Tory lead in the relevant wards in 2021 to a 17% Labour lead in 2022 (with the by-election already known to be pending).

    There are no particular local election quirks in those wards: full slates of candidates, few independents, or LD/green wards etc, to suggest the locals aren't pretty indicative here.

    Indeed in neighbouring Batley and Spen, the 'swing' between 2021 locals to the subsequent by-election was about 0.5% towards Labour, even with Galloway standing in the BE (the Tories actually won the 2021 locals by a handful of votes).

    So, my central expectation is a Labour majority comfortably above 10%.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677
    HYUFD said:

    Hardline conservative Peter Dutton is elected unopposed as the new Leader of the Australian Liberal Party after Scott Morrison's resignation

    I hope they abbreviate the hideous twat's name in the same way they did for ScoMo.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    dixiedean said:

    Just reading free newspaper The Light. ("The Uncensored Truth").
    A curious melange.

    Pro PRC, Russia, Christianity (but not the "official" bit), self-sufficiency, organic back-to-nature, fossil fuels, Capitalism, Corbyn.

    Anti vaccine, 5g, climate change, socialism, BBC, post-1974 county boundaries, Ukraine, WHO, Israel.

    Bigs up both Chris Chope and Piers Corbyn.
    Who's funding?
    I can have a guess.

    Lord Goldsmith?
  • MattWMattW Posts: 22,887

    MattW said:

    Unusual from Comical Dave:



    I was hoping we had heard the last of Comical Dave now the EU has stopped playing silly buggers over covid vaccines....
    Unfortunately for you he is still one of the most connected connectors in the Eurobubble, and influential for his selective reporting on eg the European Parliament Members, who affect the UK in some respects.

    Sorry :smile:
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,142
    Thread from journo Rob Draper:

    https://twitter.com/draper_rob/status/1530830463270518785

    My only thought reading this is, it's remarkable so many Liverpool fans made it in at all.

    The bit about going to turnstile N - at the Real end - is very odd. Where were the Real fans entering the ground? Very strange.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,781
    edited May 2022
    https://twitter.com/RobHarris/status/1531253219057446914?s=20&t=X32JiBPQw8X6o3TEhuwbAQ

    That is quite a weird fake. The colours being slightly off is an old school sign of being a fake, because people don't have access to industrial printing machines or even if they do aren't been super careful about inks etc. But totally different font is just plain weird, you can photoshop that across really easily.
This discussion has been closed.