On the plus side, Boris is absorbing a lot of that hatred and resentment, and it will pass with him, like a bad bank, or a decommissioned nuclear site, or in a strange way, Jesus.
Boris is like Jesus for taking on our sins is the oddest hot take I've ever seen on this site. 😲
It's a common enough argument from many MPs too scared to act against a leader, or at least so they may leak. The Leader as lightning rod approach, we saw it used under May (admittedly it actually worked on that occasion).
But I’m struggling to get worked up over Roe v Wade.
It’s not covered by the constitution, nor by common law, and as far as I can tell the original SC justification was weak.
So let States decide, as ghastly as that must be for the poor women who have to live in said States.
I agree. I’m also highly pro-choice but if you actually look at the leaked, draft decision, it has merit. There is nothing in the US constitution which says women have a basic right to terminate a fetus. Finessing this as a right to privacy is bogus
The voters must decide in individual states, that’s democracy. Equally, democracy allows the president and senate to pass a law explicitly allowing abortion everywhere if they have enough votes in DC
This decision arguably allows such a vote to ban abortion nationwide, too. https://twitter.com/tribelaw/status/1521311115392737280 If the Alito opinion savaging Roe and Casey ends up being the Opinion of the Court, it will unravel many basic rights beyond abortion and will go further than returning the issue to the states: It will enable a GOP Congress to enact a nationwide ban on abortion and contraception.
I’m not sure even the GOP are that stupid . To ban abortion nationwide would cause such a furore that they would be pulverized in future elections . And banning contraception would be unbelievable given most Americans aren’t Catholic.
The democracy angle is a red herring imo. An outright ban on abortion is removing a fundamental right of women that I think should be protected regardless of which party happens to be in power, state or federal level, at any one time. States' Rights - ie "democracy" - was offered in the 1960s as for why racial segregation should continue in parts of the South. It didn't wash then, as a reason for allowing something appalling, and for me it doesn't scrub up any better now.
Funnily enough, I bet you’d argue exactly the opposite way with regard to gun laws and the 2nd Amendment
I would, yes, and I'd be right to do so. Literal minded consistency, regardless of nuance and context, is the enemy of good judgement.
You are so brilliantly boring
Just brilliant, I think you mean. Fat fingers?
But let's not bicker about this abortion banning monstrosity - we clearly agree about it and that's rather precious.
We agree in practice, but I maybe see nuance where you apparently don’t. The unborn child also has rights as @Sean_F eloquently puts it downthread (better than me). Otherwise we’d have no moral problems with third trimester abortion of perfectly viable babies
When do those rights commence? It’s the devil of a question and I respect the beliefs of those who might put it at conception, even if I disagree
No, we don't have a "nuance" issue. I support the right to abortion but with controls around reasons and term limits. I don't support an outright ban or anything close to it.
Sean was making the obvious sound deep. He has a talent for that. So do lots of you grinders on here.
Ooo bitchy!
(but I love you all)
Your brain is so weirdly narrow.
There can be no “fundamental right’ in this debate, not when it comes down to a clash between the fundamental right of a baby to live, versus the fundamental rights of a woman to govern her own body
It’s like saying there is a “fundamental right of a home owner to shoot a burglar dead” or a “fundamental right of a woman to stab her abusive husband”
This is fiercely debatable stuff. It IS nuanced - because two basic rights are clashing
A ball of cells is not a baby. A ball of cells does not have fundamental rights. Calling it a “baby” doesn’t make it a baby. No-one actually treats the early embryo as if it is a baby outside of the abortion debate, because it’s not.
That's just your opinion, bro.
But an informed and intelligent one. Which therefore outranks those that are neither. Where would we be if all opinions are deemed equally worthy of respect? In big big trouble.
And a rather pompous and arrogant one too.
You seem to think that anyone who disagrees with you is your inferior.
I've been in a lot of miscarriage meetings with other couples who have had failed pregnancies (my wife and I have lost three in total) and each one was absolutely devastating. @kinabalu doesn't speak for me or my wife who have been through the absolute worst of times with miscarriages, each time it felt like a huge and personal loss for both of us and the third almost broke our marriage.
I simply don't recognise anything that he's saying and all of the couples in those support groups would surely agree.
I still support the right to choose and in general abortion, yet the characterisation that people who think of an unborn child as a baby as incorrect or outranked by a third rate sixth form debater is laughable. His pompous self importance is part of his character but it's also a bit sad.
I don't think people who have not struggled with fertility can really appreciate how stressful it is. Foxjr2 was our final roll of the dice with IVF and was frozen for six months. It is a massive emotional rollercoaster and very stressful on a marriage.
There were a number of other embryos frozen with Fox jr2, and 3 were implanted, of which only he survived to term. Under British fertility law embryos cannot be stored indefinitely, so were allowed to thaw and disintegrate some years ago. After years of stress, that wasn't an entirely comfortable thing to do.
Very sorry to hear about your ordeal Foxy, we're finally on the way at the fourth attempt, baby due in just a few weeks now!
Is there degradation of embryos in cold storage that could cause birth defects? It seems a bit mad to let them just thaw otherwise.
Good luck to you and your family . You must be so excited.
Thanks! Extremely nervous is closer to the truth but also excited. We've already got a niece and nephew but everyone says it's always different when it's your own baby and I have no doubt about it.
Your own babies are gorgeous, other peoples look like mis-shapen potatoes or Winston Churchill. It is how biology works!
Weird old thing indeed. Do people really believe it, for instance, when people say the baby looks like one or the other parent? Because that takes real rose coloured goggles.
Re header, so COME ON DOLAN then! There's much to fret about these days, to put it mildly, but I still find time for this one - the possible return of Donald Trump to the White House. It's right up there.
US democracy is finished if they are stupid enough to give Trump a second go at becoming a full-blown dictator. The GOP will become a total cult and they will gerrymander and engineer a 3rd term or one of his family retaining power.
See, for example:
Tortoise @tortoise · 3h “He’s [Trump] created a charismatic death cult out of the Republican party… this is the death knell of US democracy.”
Hear more from former director for Europe and Russia at the US National Security Council, Fiona Hill, on this week’s episode of The Backstory with @afneil .
But I’m struggling to get worked up over Roe v Wade.
It’s not covered by the constitution, nor by common law, and as far as I can tell the original SC justification was weak.
So let States decide, as ghastly as that must be for the poor women who have to live in said States.
I agree. I’m also highly pro-choice but if you actually look at the leaked, draft decision, it has merit. There is nothing in the US constitution which says women have a basic right to terminate a fetus. Finessing this as a right to privacy is bogus
The voters must decide in individual states, that’s democracy. Equally, democracy allows the president and senate to pass a law explicitly allowing abortion everywhere if they have enough votes in DC
This decision arguably allows such a vote to ban abortion nationwide, too. https://twitter.com/tribelaw/status/1521311115392737280 If the Alito opinion savaging Roe and Casey ends up being the Opinion of the Court, it will unravel many basic rights beyond abortion and will go further than returning the issue to the states: It will enable a GOP Congress to enact a nationwide ban on abortion and contraception.
I’m not sure even the GOP are that stupid . To ban abortion nationwide would cause such a furore that they would be pulverized in future elections . And banning contraception would be unbelievable given most Americans aren’t Catholic.
The democracy angle is a red herring imo. An outright ban on abortion is removing a fundamental right of women that I think should be protected regardless of which party happens to be in power, state or federal level, at any one time. States' Rights - ie "democracy" - was offered in the 1960s as for why racial segregation should continue in parts of the South. It didn't wash then, as a reason for allowing something appalling, and for me it doesn't scrub up any better now.
Funnily enough, I bet you’d argue exactly the opposite way with regard to gun laws and the 2nd Amendment
I would, yes, and I'd be right to do so. Literal minded consistency, regardless of nuance and context, is the enemy of good judgement.
You are so brilliantly boring
Just brilliant, I think you mean. Fat fingers?
But let's not bicker about this abortion banning monstrosity - we clearly agree about it and that's rather precious.
We agree in practice, but I maybe see nuance where you apparently don’t. The unborn child also has rights as @Sean_F eloquently puts it downthread (better than me). Otherwise we’d have no moral problems with third trimester abortion of perfectly viable babies
When do those rights commence? It’s the devil of a question and I respect the beliefs of those who might put it at conception, even if I disagree
No, we don't have a "nuance" issue. I support the right to abortion but with controls around reasons and term limits. I don't support an outright ban or anything close to it.
Sean was making the obvious sound deep. He has a talent for that. So do lots of you grinders on here.
Ooo bitchy!
(but I love you all)
Your brain is so weirdly narrow.
There can be no “fundamental right’ in this debate, not when it comes down to a clash between the fundamental right of a baby to live, versus the fundamental rights of a woman to govern her own body
It’s like saying there is a “fundamental right of a home owner to shoot a burglar dead” or a “fundamental right of a woman to stab her abusive husband”
This is fiercely debatable stuff. It IS nuanced - because two basic rights are clashing
A ball of cells is not a baby. A ball of cells does not have fundamental rights. Calling it a “baby” doesn’t make it a baby. No-one actually treats the early embryo as if it is a baby outside of the abortion debate, because it’s not.
That's just your opinion, bro.
But an informed and intelligent one. Which therefore outranks those that are neither. Where would we be if all opinions are deemed equally worthy of respect? In big big trouble.
And a rather pompous and arrogant one too.
You seem to think that anyone who disagrees with you is your inferior.
I've been in a lot of miscarriage meetings with other couples who have had failed pregnancies (my wife and I have lost three in total) and each one was absolutely devastating. @kinabalu doesn't speak for me or my wife who have been through the absolute worst of times with miscarriages, each time it felt like a huge and personal loss for both of us and the third almost broke our marriage.
I simply don't recognise anything that he's saying and all of the couples in those support groups would surely agree.
I still support the right to choose and in general abortion, yet the characterisation that people who think of an unborn child as a baby as incorrect or outranked by a third rate sixth form debater is laughable. His pompous self importance is part of his character but it's also a bit sad.
I don't think people who have not struggled with fertility can really appreciate how stressful it is. Foxjr2 was our final roll of the dice with IVF and was frozen for six months. It is a massive emotional rollercoaster and very stressful on a marriage.
There were a number of other embryos frozen with Fox jr2, and 3 were implanted, of which only he survived to term. Under British fertility law embryos cannot be stored indefinitely, so were allowed to thaw and disintegrate some years ago. After years of stress, that wasn't an entirely comfortable thing to do.
Very sorry to hear about your ordeal Foxy, we're finally on the way at the fourth attempt, baby due in just a few weeks now!
Is there degradation of embryos in cold storage that could cause birth defects? It seems a bit mad to let them just thaw otherwise.
Good luck to you and your family . You must be so excited.
Thanks! Extremely nervous is closer to the truth but also excited. We've already got a niece and nephew but everyone says it's always different when it's your own baby and I have no doubt about it.
Your own babies are gorgeous, other peoples look like mis-shapen potatoes or Winston Churchill. It is how biology works!
Weird old thing indeed. Do people really believe it, for instance, when people say the baby looks like one or the other parent? Because that takes real rose coloured goggles.
I think they do mean it, but I find it hard to tell until 8 or 9 months.
I used to see the UK and US as a common brethren but I think the obsessions with gays, guns, and God so many in America have is bizarre.
The UK had one school shooting and all the parties united to pass some of the strongest gun control laws in the world, whereas in America they've had so many school shootings and nothing changes.
Depends which bits, California and New York city are culturally closer to the UK than they are to Alabama and West Virginia. Indeed California is now probably more culturally liberal than the UK, certainly the Brexit voting bits of the UK
Complaining or exclaiming about major impact of religion upon the United States is a fool's errand.
Seeing as how religion has ALWAYS been a major factor in American history and thus politics. As it used to be in Europe, including UK.
Big difference here was that, unlike you, we did NOT fight bloody wars - civil, uncivil, international - over religion. Conflict, yes. Riots, occasionally. But NOTHING like the English Civil War or Thirty Years War.
Interesting part of our religious heritage - indeed its hallmark - is our diversity of faiths and esp. creeds. Which soon led - as in UK - to opposition to an established church. Difference was that establishment was too weak to survive here for very long, just a few decades after independence in a few states. And was of course banned federally.
We still argue what "separation of church and state" means. But few Americans think it's a bad thing per se - even the nutters!
But I’m struggling to get worked up over Roe v Wade.
It’s not covered by the constitution, nor by common law, and as far as I can tell the original SC justification was weak.
So let States decide, as ghastly as that must be for the poor women who have to live in said States.
I agree. I’m also highly pro-choice but if you actually look at the leaked, draft decision, it has merit. There is nothing in the US constitution which says women have a basic right to terminate a fetus. Finessing this as a right to privacy is bogus
The voters must decide in individual states, that’s democracy. Equally, democracy allows the president and senate to pass a law explicitly allowing abortion everywhere if they have enough votes in DC
This decision arguably allows such a vote to ban abortion nationwide, too. https://twitter.com/tribelaw/status/1521311115392737280 If the Alito opinion savaging Roe and Casey ends up being the Opinion of the Court, it will unravel many basic rights beyond abortion and will go further than returning the issue to the states: It will enable a GOP Congress to enact a nationwide ban on abortion and contraception.
I’m not sure even the GOP are that stupid . To ban abortion nationwide would cause such a furore that they would be pulverized in future elections . And banning contraception would be unbelievable given most Americans aren’t Catholic.
The democracy angle is a red herring imo. An outright ban on abortion is removing a fundamental right of women that I think should be protected regardless of which party happens to be in power, state or federal level, at any one time. States' Rights - ie "democracy" - was offered in the 1960s as for why racial segregation should continue in parts of the South. It didn't wash then, as a reason for allowing something appalling, and for me it doesn't scrub up any better now.
Funnily enough, I bet you’d argue exactly the opposite way with regard to gun laws and the 2nd Amendment
I would, yes, and I'd be right to do so. Literal minded consistency, regardless of nuance and context, is the enemy of good judgement.
You are so brilliantly boring
Just brilliant, I think you mean. Fat fingers?
But let's not bicker about this abortion banning monstrosity - we clearly agree about it and that's rather precious.
We agree in practice, but I maybe see nuance where you apparently don’t. The unborn child also has rights as @Sean_F eloquently puts it downthread (better than me). Otherwise we’d have no moral problems with third trimester abortion of perfectly viable babies
When do those rights commence? It’s the devil of a question and I respect the beliefs of those who might put it at conception, even if I disagree
No, we don't have a "nuance" issue. I support the right to abortion but with controls around reasons and term limits. I don't support an outright ban or anything close to it.
Sean was making the obvious sound deep. He has a talent for that. So do lots of you grinders on here.
Ooo bitchy!
(but I love you all)
Your brain is so weirdly narrow.
There can be no “fundamental right’ in this debate, not when it comes down to a clash between the fundamental right of a baby to live, versus the fundamental rights of a woman to govern her own body
It’s like saying there is a “fundamental right of a home owner to shoot a burglar dead” or a “fundamental right of a woman to stab her abusive husband”
This is fiercely debatable stuff. It IS nuanced - because two basic rights are clashing
A ball of cells is not a baby. A ball of cells does not have fundamental rights. Calling it a “baby” doesn’t make it a baby. No-one actually treats the early embryo as if it is a baby outside of the abortion debate, because it’s not.
That's just your opinion, bro.
But an informed and intelligent one. Which therefore outranks those that are neither. Where would we be if all opinions are deemed equally worthy of respect? In big big trouble.
And a rather pompous and arrogant one too.
You seem to think that anyone who disagrees with you is your inferior.
I've been in a lot of miscarriage meetings with other couples who have had failed pregnancies (my wife and I have lost three in total) and each one was absolutely devastating. @kinabalu doesn't speak for me or my wife who have been through the absolute worst of times with miscarriages, each time it felt like a huge and personal loss for both of us and the third almost broke our marriage.
I simply don't recognise anything that he's saying and all of the couples in those support groups would surely agree.
I still support the right to choose and in general abortion, yet the characterisation that people who think of an unborn child as a baby as incorrect or outranked by a third rate sixth form debater is laughable. His pompous self importance is part of his character but it's also a bit sad.
I don't think people who have not struggled with fertility can really appreciate how stressful it is. Foxjr2 was our final roll of the dice with IVF and was frozen for six months. It is a massive emotional rollercoaster and very stressful on a marriage.
There were a number of other embryos frozen with Fox jr2, and 3 were implanted, of which only he survived to term. Under British fertility law embryos cannot be stored indefinitely, so were allowed to thaw and disintegrate some years ago. After years of stress, that wasn't an entirely comfortable thing to do.
Very sorry to hear about your ordeal Foxy, we're finally on the way at the fourth attempt, baby due in just a few weeks now!
Is there degradation of embryos in cold storage that could cause birth defects? It seems a bit mad to let them just thaw otherwise.
Good luck to you and your family . You must be so excited.
Thanks! Extremely nervous is closer to the truth but also excited. We've already got a niece and nephew but everyone says it's always different when it's your own baby and I have no doubt about it.
Your own babies are gorgeous, other peoples look like mis-shapen potatoes or Winston Churchill. It is how biology works!
Weird old thing indeed. Do people really believe it, for instance, when people say the baby looks like one or the other parent? Because that takes real rose coloured goggles.
There's a theory that via either social or biological evolution, people have evolved the trait of "seeing" the father in the baby.
There's a subconscious incentive to see traits that bear similarities with the father, because subconsciously that provides reassurance that the baby is the fathers in case there's any doubt, which is good for society and therefore a survival trait that could have evolved.
But I’m struggling to get worked up over Roe v Wade.
It’s not covered by the constitution, nor by common law, and as far as I can tell the original SC justification was weak.
So let States decide, as ghastly as that must be for the poor women who have to live in said States.
I agree. I’m also highly pro-choice but if you actually look at the leaked, draft decision, it has merit. There is nothing in the US constitution which says women have a basic right to terminate a fetus. Finessing this as a right to privacy is bogus
The voters must decide in individual states, that’s democracy. Equally, democracy allows the president and senate to pass a law explicitly allowing abortion everywhere if they have enough votes in DC
This decision arguably allows such a vote to ban abortion nationwide, too. https://twitter.com/tribelaw/status/1521311115392737280 If the Alito opinion savaging Roe and Casey ends up being the Opinion of the Court, it will unravel many basic rights beyond abortion and will go further than returning the issue to the states: It will enable a GOP Congress to enact a nationwide ban on abortion and contraception.
I’m not sure even the GOP are that stupid . To ban abortion nationwide would cause such a furore that they would be pulverized in future elections . And banning contraception would be unbelievable given most Americans aren’t Catholic.
The democracy angle is a red herring imo. An outright ban on abortion is removing a fundamental right of women that I think should be protected regardless of which party happens to be in power, state or federal level, at any one time. States' Rights - ie "democracy" - was offered in the 1960s as for why racial segregation should continue in parts of the South. It didn't wash then, as a reason for allowing something appalling, and for me it doesn't scrub up any better now.
Funnily enough, I bet you’d argue exactly the opposite way with regard to gun laws and the 2nd Amendment
I would, yes, and I'd be right to do so. Literal minded consistency, regardless of nuance and context, is the enemy of good judgement.
You are so brilliantly boring
Just brilliant, I think you mean. Fat fingers?
But let's not bicker about this abortion banning monstrosity - we clearly agree about it and that's rather precious.
We agree in practice, but I maybe see nuance where you apparently don’t. The unborn child also has rights as @Sean_F eloquently puts it downthread (better than me). Otherwise we’d have no moral problems with third trimester abortion of perfectly viable babies
When do those rights commence? It’s the devil of a question and I respect the beliefs of those who might put it at conception, even if I disagree
No, we don't have a "nuance" issue. I support the right to abortion but with controls around reasons and term limits. I don't support an outright ban or anything close to it.
Sean was making the obvious sound deep. He has a talent for that. So do lots of you grinders on here.
Ooo bitchy!
(but I love you all)
Your brain is so weirdly narrow.
There can be no “fundamental right’ in this debate, not when it comes down to a clash between the fundamental right of a baby to live, versus the fundamental rights of a woman to govern her own body
It’s like saying there is a “fundamental right of a home owner to shoot a burglar dead” or a “fundamental right of a woman to stab her abusive husband”
This is fiercely debatable stuff. It IS nuanced - because two basic rights are clashing
A ball of cells is not a baby. A ball of cells does not have fundamental rights. Calling it a “baby” doesn’t make it a baby. No-one actually treats the early embryo as if it is a baby outside of the abortion debate, because it’s not.
That's just your opinion, bro.
But an informed and intelligent one. Which therefore outranks those that are neither. Where would we be if all opinions are deemed equally worthy of respect? In big big trouble.
And a rather pompous and arrogant one too.
You seem to think that anyone who disagrees with you is your inferior.
I've been in a lot of miscarriage meetings with other couples who have had failed pregnancies (my wife and I have lost three in total) and each one was absolutely devastating. @kinabalu doesn't speak for me or my wife who have been through the absolute worst of times with miscarriages, each time it felt like a huge and personal loss for both of us and the third almost broke our marriage.
I simply don't recognise anything that he's saying and all of the couples in those support groups would surely agree.
I still support the right to choose and in general abortion, yet the characterisation that people who think of an unborn child as a baby as incorrect or outranked by a third rate sixth form debater is laughable. His pompous self importance is part of his character but it's also a bit sad.
I don't think people who have not struggled with fertility can really appreciate how stressful it is. Foxjr2 was our final roll of the dice with IVF and was frozen for six months. It is a massive emotional rollercoaster and very stressful on a marriage.
There were a number of other embryos frozen with Fox jr2, and 3 were implanted, of which only he survived to term. Under British fertility law embryos cannot be stored indefinitely, so were allowed to thaw and disintegrate some years ago. After years of stress, that wasn't an entirely comfortable thing to do.
Very sorry to hear about your ordeal Foxy, we're finally on the way at the fourth attempt, baby due in just a few weeks now!
Is there degradation of embryos in cold storage that could cause birth defects? It seems a bit mad to let them just thaw otherwise.
Good luck to you and your family . You must be so excited.
Thanks! Extremely nervous is closer to the truth but also excited. We've already got a niece and nephew but everyone says it's always different when it's your own baby and I have no doubt about it.
Your own babies are gorgeous, other peoples look like mis-shapen potatoes or Winston Churchill. It is how biology works!
Weird old thing indeed. Do people really believe it, for instance, when people say the baby looks like one or the other parent? Because that takes real rose coloured goggles.
We saw a photo of our great-niece's dad's sister as a baby. The resemblance is striking.
Complaining or exclaiming about major impact of religion upon the United States is a fool's errand.
Seeing as how religion has ALWAYS been a major factor in American history and thus politics. As it used to be in Europe, including UK.
Big difference here was that, unlike you, we did NOT fight bloody wars - civil, uncivil, international - over religion. Conflict, yes. Riots, occasionally. But NOTHING like the English Civil War or Thirty Years War.
Interesting part of our religious heritage - indeed its hallmark - is our diversity of faiths and esp. creeds. Which soon led - as in UK - to opposition to an established church. Difference was that establishment was too weak to survive here for very long, just a few decades after independence in a few states. And was of course banned federally.
We still argue what "separation of church and state" means. But few Americans think it's a bad thing per se - even the nutters!
Maybe you should try it sometime?
It's not really necessary to separate them now, since time has rendered it toothless anyway. So it's just vestigial.
Re header, so COME ON DOLAN then! There's much to fret about these days, to put it mildly, but I still find time for this one - the possible return of Donald Trump to the White House. It's right up there.
US democracy is finished if they are stupid enough to give Trump a second go at becoming a full-blown dictator. The GOP will become a total cult and they will gerrymander and engineer a 3rd term or one of his family retaining power.
3h “He’s [Trump] created a charismatic death cult out of the Republican party… this is the death knell of US democracy.”
Hear more from former director for Europe and Russia at the US National Security Council, Fiona Hill, on this week’s episode of The Backstory with @afneil
On the plus side, Boris is absorbing a lot of that hatred and resentment, and it will pass with him, like a bad bank, or a decommissioned nuclear site, or in a strange way, Jesus.
That might work if he fecked off and was never heard of again but I suspect that may not be what transpires. Scots have long collective memories, just consider the esteem and affection in which the sainted Margaret is held north of Gretna. At least we had some grudging respect for the mad eyed old monetarist.
Complaining or exclaiming about major impact of religion upon the United States is a fool's errand.
Seeing as how religion has ALWAYS been a major factor in American history and thus politics. As it used to be in Europe, including UK.
Big difference here was that, unlike you, we did NOT fight bloody wars - civil, uncivil, international - over religion. Conflict, yes. Riots, occasionally. But NOTHING like the English Civil War or Thirty Years War.
Interesting part of our religious heritage - indeed its hallmark - is our diversity of faiths and esp. creeds. Which soon led - as in UK - to opposition to an established church. Difference was that establishment was too weak to survive here for very long, just a few decades after independence in a few states. And was of course banned federally.
We still argue what "separation of church and state" means. But few Americans think it's a bad thing per se - even the nutters!
Maybe you should try it sometime?
Give it time. You haven't had as long as us to fight over religion.
US religious conservatives are still obsessed with abortion. But with gays? Not really. Even the jack-leg preachers and televangelists have given up queer-bashing. Cause the folks in the pews just are NOT that freaked out, or even interested.
Which is why they've switched to transexuals. Where they've got some feminist AND gay allies.
Personally think the proliferation of porn - dramatically illustrated this past week - has work this sea change.
Because back in the day, the religious & political right made BIG play re: debauchery of the homosexuals, for example using footage from SF Gay Pride Parade for fundraising & campaign commercials.
But for the last decade and more, all kinds of people - including Christian Coalition types - have had ready access to all kinds of porn - the bulk of it hetero - via the web. And they've taken pretty full advantage, regardless of faith or creed.
Meaning that they've gotten an eyeful - at least - of hetrosexuals getting up to all manner of hanky panky. And somehow, whatever the gays are getting up to, just does NOT seem quite as debauched as back in the day.
Jeez that’s a lot of curry ! The DM have done their best to protect Johnson by their false equivalence but the BP profits being announced today and no 10 still refusing anything to do with a windfall tax is a pretty awful look in the run up to the local elections .
The Metro has another story that’s hardly a vote winner re the covid loans !
Complaining or exclaiming about major impact of religion upon the United States is a fool's errand.
Seeing as how religion has ALWAYS been a major factor in American history and thus politics. As it used to be in Europe, including UK.
Big difference here was that, unlike you, we did NOT fight bloody wars - civil, uncivil, international - over religion. Conflict, yes. Riots, occasionally. But NOTHING like the English Civil War or Thirty Years War.
Interesting part of our religious heritage - indeed its hallmark - is our diversity of faiths and esp. creeds. Which soon led - as in UK - to opposition to an established church. Difference was that establishment was too weak to survive here for very long, just a few decades after independence in a few states. And was of course banned federally.
We still argue what "separation of church and state" means. But few Americans think it's a bad thing per se - even the nutters!
Maybe you should try it sometime?
I’m sorry @SeaShantyIrish2 but this is nonsense. America is intensely religious in a way that it’s entirely alien to UK/Oz/Canada, and also most Europeans
So you may de jure have separation of church and state but de facto you do not. The Civil War was infused with religious debate and that killed 750,000 Americans - including fully 20% of all Southern men of fighting age
On the plus side, Boris is absorbing a lot of that hatred and resentment, and it will pass with him, like a bad bank, or a decommissioned nuclear site, or in a strange way, Jesus.
Boris is like Jesus for taking on our sins is the oddest hot take I've ever seen on this site. 😲
Politics doesn't just pass like that. If the Tories lose the next election, they'll probably be out of power for at least a decade.
It's the sort of thing JRM might say if there was too much wine in the chalice at mass this morning.
Though didn't someone vaguely serious make some vaguely absurd Jesus comparison when BoJo rose from the Covid grave?
More sensibly... one of the potent aspects of Jesus as a story is his ability to act as a scapegoat for everything, really. And the concept of scapegoats is a potent thing deep in the human psyche. Put all the bad on X, and the rest of us can move on, whether that's fair or not. See postwar Germany and Hitler, and the effort needed to make it clear that it wasn't just him.
The Conservatives might have got away with that had they dumped BoJo earlier. Summer 2020, maybe? But now they are too tightly tied up with the man and his flaws. It's still in their interests to get rid, but only for damage limitation reasons.
On the plus side, Boris is absorbing a lot of that hatred and resentment, and it will pass with him, like a bad bank, or a decommissioned nuclear site, or in a strange way, Jesus.
That might work if he fecked off and was never heard of again but I suspect that may not be what transpires. Scots have long collective memories, just consider the esteem and affection in which the sainted Margaret is held north of Gretna. At least we had some grudging respect for the mad eyed old monetarist.
Quite. I knew an elderly right wing unionist utterly stuck in the mud - absolutely appalled that a "clown" (his word) was to be foisted on the UK as prime minister. Whatever else Mrs T was, she was never a clown.
Jeez that’s a lot of curry ! The DM have done their best to protect Johnson by their false equivalence but the BP profits being announced today and no 10 still refusing anything to do with a windfall tax is a pretty awful look in the run up to the local elections .
The Metro has another story that’s hardly a vote winner re the covid loans !
On the plus side, Boris is absorbing a lot of that hatred and resentment, and it will pass with him, like a bad bank, or a decommissioned nuclear site, or in a strange way, Jesus.
Boris is like Jesus for taking on our sins is the oddest hot take I've ever seen on this site. 😲
Politics doesn't just pass like that. If the Tories lose the next election, they'll probably be out of power for at least a decade.
It's the sort of thing JRM might say if there was too much wine in the chalice at mass this morning.
Though didn't someone vaguely serious make some vaguely absurd Jesus comparison when BoJo rose from the Covid grave?
More sensibly... one of the potent aspects of Jesus as a story is his ability to act as a scapegoat for everything, really. And the concept of scapegoats is a potent thing deep in the human psyche. Put all the bad on X, and the rest of us can move on, whether that's fair or not. See postwar Germany and Hitler, and the effort needed to make it clear that it wasn't just him.
The Conservatives might have got away with that had they dumped BoJo earlier. Summer 2020, maybe? But now they are too tightly tied up with the man and his flaws. It's still in their interests to get rid, but only for damage limitation reasons.
I remember someone making the Jesus comparison when Boris got over Covid, I can't remember who it was but I read it as firmly tongue in cheek - plus from memory, coincidentally wasn't it Easter at the time? Which made the comparisons a bit more timely and topical?
Jeez that’s a lot of curry ! The DM have done their best to protect Johnson by their false equivalence but the BP profits being announced today and no 10 still refusing anything to do with a windfall tax is a pretty awful look in the run up to the local elections .
The Metro has another story that’s hardly a vote winner re the covid loans !
Is it? A dozen folk at £15 per head plus drinks.
Lol! I was being sarcastic re the curry ! I expect a Beergate to disappear from the DM come Friday!
Complaining or exclaiming about major impact of religion upon the United States is a fool's errand.
Seeing as how religion has ALWAYS been a major factor in American history and thus politics. As it used to be in Europe, including UK.
Big difference here was that, unlike you, we did NOT fight bloody wars - civil, uncivil, international - over religion. Conflict, yes. Riots, occasionally. But NOTHING like the English Civil War or Thirty Years War.
Interesting part of our religious heritage - indeed its hallmark - is our diversity of faiths and esp. creeds. Which soon led - as in UK - to opposition to an established church. Difference was that establishment was too weak to survive here for very long, just a few decades after independence in a few states. And was of course banned federally.
We still argue what "separation of church and state" means. But few Americans think it's a bad thing per se - even the nutters!
Maybe you should try it sometime?
And of course the largest 2 Christian denominations in America are the Roman Catholic Church and the evangelical Southern Baptist Convention, both much more hardline than the Church of England on social issues, whose US cousin the Episcopalian church is just a small minority there
My apologies for carrying this over from the previous thread, but I would like to make three predictions, and one observation:
First, the result of this upcoming decision overturning Roe versus Wade will be an America something like Europe, though perhaps the Europe of a few decades ago, with different states having different laws on abortion. That was already beginning to happen before Roe, and many of those laws are still on the books. It will be possible for women seeking an abortion to go from a state where it would be forbidden to one where it is not. (In fact, if I caught the story right, Amazon is already promising to pay for such trips, for its workers.)
(I think that restoring this decision to legislatures and the votes of the people in states that have referendums and initiatives, will encourage some of the pragmatic regulations seen in many European nations, in the long run.)
Second, this will increase the drift of Hispanics to the Republican Party.
Third, pro-life women will continue to have more children than pro-choice women. You can see this most easily among activists, where it is common for pro-life women to have four -- or more -- children. Justice Barrett is unusual in that, but not unique: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amy_Coney_Barrett
In 1999, Barrett married fellow Notre Dame Law School graduate Jesse M. Barrett, a partner at SouthBank Legal – LaDue Curran & Kuehn LLC, in South Bend, Indiana,[215] and a law professor at Notre Dame Law School.[216] Previously, Jesse Barrett had worked as an Assistant U.S. Attorney for the Northern District of Indiana for 13 years.[217] The couple lives in South Bend and has seven children, two of whom were adopted from Haiti, one in 2005 and one after the 2010 Haiti earthquake.[36][218] Their youngest biological child has Down syndrome.
On the plus side, Boris is absorbing a lot of that hatred and resentment, and it will pass with him, like a bad bank, or a decommissioned nuclear site, or in a strange way, Jesus.
Boris is like Jesus for taking on our sins is the oddest hot take I've ever seen on this site. 😲
Politics doesn't just pass like that. If the Tories lose the next election, they'll probably be out of power for at least a decade.
It's the sort of thing JRM might say if there was too much wine in the chalice at mass this morning.
Though didn't someone vaguely serious make some vaguely absurd Jesus comparison when BoJo rose from the Covid grave?
More sensibly... one of the potent aspects of Jesus as a story is his ability to act as a scapegoat for everything, really. And the concept of scapegoats is a potent thing deep in the human psyche. Put all the bad on X, and the rest of us can move on, whether that's fair or not. See postwar Germany and Hitler, and the effort needed to make it clear that it wasn't just him.
The Conservatives might have got away with that had they dumped BoJo earlier. Summer 2020, maybe? But now they are too tightly tied up with the man and his flaws. It's still in their interests to get rid, but only for damage limitation reasons.
I remember someone making the Jesus comparison when Boris got over Covid, I can't remember who it was but I read it as firmly tongue in cheek - plus from memory, coincidentally wasn't it Easter at the time? Which made the comparisons a bit more timely and topical?
On the plus side, Boris is absorbing a lot of that hatred and resentment, and it will pass with him, like a bad bank, or a decommissioned nuclear site, or in a strange way, Jesus.
Boris is like Jesus for taking on our sins is the oddest hot take I've ever seen on this site. 😲
Politics doesn't just pass like that. If the Tories lose the next election, they'll probably be out of power for at least a decade.
It's the sort of thing JRM might say if there was too much wine in the chalice at mass this morning.
Though didn't someone vaguely serious make some vaguely absurd Jesus comparison when BoJo rose from the Covid grave?
More sensibly... one of the potent aspects of Jesus as a story is his ability to act as a scapegoat for everything, really. And the concept of scapegoats is a potent thing deep in the human psyche. Put all the bad on X, and the rest of us can move on, whether that's fair or not. See postwar Germany and Hitler, and the effort needed to make it clear that it wasn't just him.
The Conservatives might have got away with that had they dumped BoJo earlier. Summer 2020, maybe? But now they are too tightly tied up with the man and his flaws. It's still in their interests to get rid, but only for damage limitation reasons.
I remember someone making the Jesus comparison when Boris got over Covid, I can't remember who it was but I read it as firmly tongue in cheek - plus from memory, coincidentally wasn't it Easter at the time? Which made the comparisons a bit more timely and topical?
On the plus side, Boris is absorbing a lot of that hatred and resentment, and it will pass with him, like a bad bank, or a decommissioned nuclear site, or in a strange way, Jesus.
Boris is like Jesus for taking on our sins is the oddest hot take I've ever seen on this site. 😲
Politics doesn't just pass like that. If the Tories lose the next election, they'll probably be out of power for at least a decade.
It's the sort of thing JRM might say if there was too much wine in the chalice at mass this morning.
Though didn't someone vaguely serious make some vaguely absurd Jesus comparison when BoJo rose from the Covid grave?
More sensibly... one of the potent aspects of Jesus as a story is his ability to act as a scapegoat for everything, really. And the concept of scapegoats is a potent thing deep in the human psyche. Put all the bad on X, and the rest of us can move on, whether that's fair or not. See postwar Germany and Hitler, and the effort needed to make it clear that it wasn't just him.
The Conservatives might have got away with that had they dumped BoJo earlier. Summer 2020, maybe? But now they are too tightly tied up with the man and his flaws. It's still in their interests to get rid, but only for damage limitation reasons.
I remember someone making the Jesus comparison when Boris got over Covid, I can't remember who it was but I read it as firmly tongue in cheek - plus from memory, coincidentally wasn't it Easter at the time? Which made the comparisons a bit more timely and topical?
On the plus side, Boris is absorbing a lot of that hatred and resentment, and it will pass with him, like a bad bank, or a decommissioned nuclear site, or in a strange way, Jesus.
Boris is like Jesus for taking on our sins is the oddest hot take I've ever seen on this site. 😲
Politics doesn't just pass like that. If the Tories lose the next election, they'll probably be out of power for at least a decade.
It's the sort of thing JRM might say if there was too much wine in the chalice at mass this morning.
Though didn't someone vaguely serious make some vaguely absurd Jesus comparison when BoJo rose from the Covid grave?
More sensibly... one of the potent aspects of Jesus as a story is his ability to act as a scapegoat for everything, really. And the concept of scapegoats is a potent thing deep in the human psyche. Put all the bad on X, and the rest of us can move on, whether that's fair or not. See postwar Germany and Hitler, and the effort needed to make it clear that it wasn't just him.
The Conservatives might have got away with that had they dumped BoJo earlier. Summer 2020, maybe? But now they are too tightly tied up with the man and his flaws. It's still in their interests to get rid, but only for damage limitation reasons.
I remember someone making the Jesus comparison when Boris got over Covid, I can't remember who it was but I read it as firmly tongue in cheek - plus from memory, coincidentally wasn't it Easter at the time? Which made the comparisons a bit more timely and topical?
Yeah. Wasn't it Leon? He is risen.
Possibly me
I also compared Boris to Beowulf when he recovered from Covid: the hero who slew the Grendel of the Virus in her hideous lair, deep in the mere
Complaining or exclaiming about major impact of religion upon the United States is a fool's errand.
Seeing as how religion has ALWAYS been a major factor in American history and thus politics. As it used to be in Europe, including UK.
Big difference here was that, unlike you, we did NOT fight bloody wars - civil, uncivil, international - over religion. Conflict, yes. Riots, occasionally. But NOTHING like the English Civil War or Thirty Years War.
Interesting part of our religious heritage - indeed its hallmark - is our diversity of faiths and esp. creeds. Which soon led - as in UK - to opposition to an established church. Difference was that establishment was too weak to survive here for very long, just a few decades after independence in a few states. And was of course banned federally.
We still argue what "separation of church and state" means. But few Americans think it's a bad thing per se - even the nutters!
Maybe you should try it sometime?
I’m sorry @SeaShantyIrish2 but this is nonsense. America is intensely religious in a way that it’s entirely alien to UK/Oz/Canada, and also most Europeans
So you may de jure have separation of church and state but de facto you do not. The Civil War was infused with religious debate and that killed 750,000 Americans - including fully 20% of all Southern men of fighting age
Europeans USED to be intensely religious. Now you are intensely irreligious. Having totally lost your faith due to WAY too much wars of religion, auto de fes and "Gott Mit Uns"
Whereas Americans have NOT lost their faith, for the most part. And only a minority is theologically obsessed - just that it compares with about zilch in Europe PLUS the rest of the county have religious buttons that can definitely be pushed. For good (anti-Slavery), mixed (Prohibition) or ill (anti-Semitism).
I say Prohibition was mixed, because motivation (ending abuse of alcohol) was good but unexpected consequences (Al Capone) were bad. Same with "War on Drugs".
As for US Civil War, plenty of religious feeling on BOTH sides.
For example, Stonewall Jackson's first wife's father was a preacher, with anti-slavery views. Had a BIG influence on Jackson. Unfortunately, his first wife died in childbirth. His second father-in-law was also a minister. But he was pro-slavery. Had a BIG influence on Jackson. Which may well have been determinative, when push came to shove in Virginia after Fort Sumter.
Thank you for your responses to my article https://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2022/05/02/why-ukraine-was-particularly-vulnerable/ yesterday. I've gone thru your comments and created a conversation on vf.politicalbetting.com with my responses. You can see them there and ask further questions if you wish. If you don't want to take part it has a "Leave Conversation" button on the conversation which you can press. If you don't want to join in it's not a problem and you can cheerfully tell me to f*** off if you want...
But I’m struggling to get worked up over Roe v Wade.
It’s not covered by the constitution, nor by common law, and as far as I can tell the original SC justification was weak.
So let States decide, as ghastly as that must be for the poor women who have to live in said States.
I agree. I’m also highly pro-choice but if you actually look at the leaked, draft decision, it has merit. There is nothing in the US constitution which says women have a basic right to terminate a fetus. Finessing this as a right to privacy is bogus
The voters must decide in individual states, that’s democracy. Equally, democracy allows the president and senate to pass a law explicitly allowing abortion everywhere if they have enough votes in DC
This decision arguably allows such a vote to ban abortion nationwide, too. https://twitter.com/tribelaw/status/1521311115392737280 If the Alito opinion savaging Roe and Casey ends up being the Opinion of the Court, it will unravel many basic rights beyond abortion and will go further than returning the issue to the states: It will enable a GOP Congress to enact a nationwide ban on abortion and contraception.
I’m not sure even the GOP are that stupid . To ban abortion nationwide would cause such a furore that they would be pulverized in future elections . And banning contraception would be unbelievable given most Americans aren’t Catholic.
The democracy angle is a red herring imo. An outright ban on abortion is removing a fundamental right of women that I think should be protected regardless of which party happens to be in power, state or federal level, at any one time. States' Rights - ie "democracy" - was offered in the 1960s as for why racial segregation should continue in parts of the South. It didn't wash then, as a reason for allowing something appalling, and for me it doesn't scrub up any better now.
Funnily enough, I bet you’d argue exactly the opposite way with regard to gun laws and the 2nd Amendment
I would, yes, and I'd be right to do so. Literal minded consistency, regardless of nuance and context, is the enemy of good judgement.
You are so brilliantly boring
Just brilliant, I think you mean. Fat fingers?
But let's not bicker about this abortion banning monstrosity - we clearly agree about it and that's rather precious.
We agree in practice, but I maybe see nuance where you apparently don’t. The unborn child also has rights as @Sean_F eloquently puts it downthread (better than me). Otherwise we’d have no moral problems with third trimester abortion of perfectly viable babies
When do those rights commence? It’s the devil of a question and I respect the beliefs of those who might put it at conception, even if I disagree
No, we don't have a "nuance" issue. I support the right to abortion but with controls around reasons and term limits. I don't support an outright ban or anything close to it.
Sean was making the obvious sound deep. He has a talent for that. So do lots of you grinders on here.
Ooo bitchy!
(but I love you all)
Your brain is so weirdly narrow.
There can be no “fundamental right’ in this debate, not when it comes down to a clash between the fundamental right of a baby to live, versus the fundamental rights of a woman to govern her own body
It’s like saying there is a “fundamental right of a home owner to shoot a burglar dead” or a “fundamental right of a woman to stab her abusive husband”
This is fiercely debatable stuff. It IS nuanced - because two basic rights are clashing
A ball of cells is not a baby. A ball of cells does not have fundamental rights. Calling it a “baby” doesn’t make it a baby. No-one actually treats the early embryo as if it is a baby outside of the abortion debate, because it’s not.
That's just your opinion, bro.
But an informed and intelligent one. Which therefore outranks those that are neither. Where would we be if all opinions are deemed equally worthy of respect? In big big trouble.
And a rather pompous and arrogant one too.
You seem to think that anyone who disagrees with you is your inferior.
I've been in a lot of miscarriage meetings with other couples who have had failed pregnancies (my wife and I have lost three in total) and each one was absolutely devastating. @kinabalu doesn't speak for me or my wife who have been through the absolute worst of times with miscarriages, each time it felt like a huge and personal loss for both of us and the third almost broke our marriage.
I simply don't recognise anything that he's saying and all of the couples in those support groups would surely agree.
I still support the right to choose and in general abortion, yet the characterisation that people who think of an unborn child as a baby as incorrect or outranked by a third rate sixth form debater is laughable. His pompous self importance is part of his character but it's also a bit sad.
Max, you're assigning views to me that I neither hold nor have expressed. You wouldn't like me doing that with you, now, would you? No.
I have no problem with thinking of an unborn child as a baby. My problem is a ban on abortion. And I don't see that the first leads to the second. Nor, I see, do you.
Quoting specifically - "No-one actually treats the early embryo as if it is a baby outside of the abortion debate, because it’s not." - is incorrect. Plenty of couples (including us) lost pregnancies early on and it feels (and still does) as though the baby was snatched away.
You are simply wrong that people don't see early pregnancies as babies outside of the abortion debate. I dare you to go into one of the miscarriage support meetings and suggest as such, I think you'd walk out after being kicked in the balls a few times by irate women.
It wasn't Kin who wrote that Max.
Miscarriages certainly are a tragedy that bring a sense of loss, its even possible to have that sense of loss without a pregnancy or a miscarriage. A friend thought she was pregnant and was happy only to find out at the 12 week scan that it was a false positive, she'd never been pregnant. She mourned the loss, even though philosophically some might say there was 'nothing' to mourn, its not true and was still deeply distressing for her.
Finding out that you can't have children can also be deeply distressing too.
Sensitivity is certainly required on this subject, because sometimes you can never know what someone has been through.
Ah, I messed up the quote chain. My ire should be directed at @bondegezou, apologies @kinabalu.
And yes to all the above, it's extremely distressing. My wife was, in her less rational moments, contemplating asking me for a divorce after the third failed attempt so that I could remarry and have a family with some other woman because she thought she wasn't able. It can really drive people a bit crazy. That's when we decided to just take a break from trying actively and once the pressure was gone, just like magic it happened and (fingers crossed) this one is just a few weeks away!
I’m sorry I upset you, @MaxPB . Good luck with the birth!
I will not bore this new thread with further lengthy discussion. But if I may, I will note that if you ban abortion, you also ban IVF. I do not want to see either banned. I think we should do more to help those facing infertility problems. I hope we can live in a world where everyone can have a children when they want and not have children when they don’t want. The Republican Party does not agree.
Complaining or exclaiming about major impact of religion upon the United States is a fool's errand.
Seeing as how religion has ALWAYS been a major factor in American history and thus politics. As it used to be in Europe, including UK.
Big difference here was that, unlike you, we did NOT fight bloody wars - civil, uncivil, international - over religion. Conflict, yes. Riots, occasionally. But NOTHING like the English Civil War or Thirty Years War.
Interesting part of our religious heritage - indeed its hallmark - is our diversity of faiths and esp. creeds. Which soon led - as in UK - to opposition to an established church. Difference was that establishment was too weak to survive here for very long, just a few decades after independence in a few states. And was of course banned federally.
We still argue what "separation of church and state" means. But few Americans think it's a bad thing per se - even the nutters!
Maybe you should try it sometime?
I’m sorry @SeaShantyIrish2 but this is nonsense. America is intensely religious in a way that it’s entirely alien to UK/Oz/Canada, and also most Europeans
So you may de jure have separation of church and state but de facto you do not. The Civil War was infused with religious debate and that killed 750,000 Americans - including fully 20% of all Southern men of fighting age
Europeans USED to be intensely religious. Now you are intensely irreligious. Having totally lost your faith due to WAY too much wars of religion, auto de fes and "Gott Mit Uns"
Whereas Americans have NOT lost their faith, for the most part. And only a minority is theologically obsessed - just that it compares with about zilch in Europe PLUS the rest of the county have religious buttons that can definitely be pushed. For good (anti-Slavery), mixed (Prohibition) or ill (anti-Semitism).
I say Prohibition was mixed, because motivation (ending abuse of alcohol) was good but unexpected consequences (Al Capone) were bad. Same with "War on Drugs".
In a sense there is something admirable about America’s debate on abortion
It is akin to the slavery debate, in its power, yet much more nuanced (both sides have good arguments: they obviously did not on slavery). This is a profound and serious moral issue and Americans REALLY care. Perhaps they care too much, and they might end up shooting each other, but arguably that is better than the shrug of the cynical European
Tricky. I’m glad the UK is not embittered by this debate yet I am also glad a serious western society is exercised by it
The UK performed the same service for the rest of the EU when we had Brexit
Complaining or exclaiming about major impact of religion upon the United States is a fool's errand.
Seeing as how religion has ALWAYS been a major factor in American history and thus politics. As it used to be in Europe, including UK.
Big difference here was that, unlike you, we did NOT fight bloody wars - civil, uncivil, international - over religion. Conflict, yes. Riots, occasionally. But NOTHING like the English Civil War or Thirty Years War.
Interesting part of our religious heritage - indeed its hallmark - is our diversity of faiths and esp. creeds. Which soon led - as in UK - to opposition to an established church. Difference was that establishment was too weak to survive here for very long, just a few decades after independence in a few states. And was of course banned federally.
We still argue what "separation of church and state" means. But few Americans think it's a bad thing per se - even the nutters!
Maybe you should try it sometime?
I’m sorry @SeaShantyIrish2 but this is nonsense. America is intensely religious in a way that it’s entirely alien to UK/Oz/Canada, and also most Europeans
So you may de jure have separation of church and state but de facto you do not. The Civil War was infused with religious debate and that killed 750,000 Americans - including fully 20% of all Southern men of fighting age
Europeans USED to be intensely religious. Now you are intensely irreligious. Having totally lost your faith due to WAY too much wars of religion.
Was that really a factor in the decline? People were plenty religious for a quite some time after wars of religion.
If the genotype theory of political attitudes were true ("we will outbreed the pro-choicers!"), many aspects of society would look very different across the world, so I don't think it is the most important factor.
On the plus side, Boris is absorbing a lot of that hatred and resentment, and it will pass with him, like a bad bank, or a decommissioned nuclear site, or in a strange way, Jesus.
Boris is like Jesus for taking on our sins is the oddest hot take I've ever seen on this site. 😲
Politics doesn't just pass like that. If the Tories lose the next election, they'll probably be out of power for at least a decade.
It's the sort of thing JRM might say if there was too much wine in the chalice at mass this morning.
Though didn't someone vaguely serious make some vaguely absurd Jesus comparison when BoJo rose from the Covid grave?
More sensibly... one of the potent aspects of Jesus as a story is his ability to act as a scapegoat for everything, really. And the concept of scapegoats is a potent thing deep in the human psyche. Put all the bad on X, and the rest of us can move on, whether that's fair or not. See postwar Germany and Hitler, and the effort needed to make it clear that it wasn't just him.
The Conservatives might have got away with that had they dumped BoJo earlier. Summer 2020, maybe? But now they are too tightly tied up with the man and his flaws. It's still in their interests to get rid, but only for damage limitation reasons.
I remember someone making the Jesus comparison when Boris got over Covid, I can't remember who it was but I read it as firmly tongue in cheek - plus from memory, coincidentally wasn't it Easter at the time? Which made the comparisons a bit more timely and topical?
The comparison came up from various people all over the internet. I would be astonished if even 1 in 100 meant it seriously. Reminds me of an overwrought comparison on Labour List comments from someone talking about the 'other' JC having been denied, which was almost certainly a pisstake, but there's always one or two taking it seriously.
Jeez that’s a lot of curry ! The DM have done their best to protect Johnson by their false equivalence but the BP profits being announced today and no 10 still refusing anything to do with a windfall tax is a pretty awful look in the run up to the local elections .
The Metro has another story that’s hardly a vote winner re the covid loans !
Is it? A dozen folk at £15 per head plus drinks.
Lol! I was being sarcastic re the curry ! I expect a Beergate to disappear from the DM come Friday!
Being professional journalist I bet they wished they were allowed to print COVID LOANS GIVEN TO ISIS like a couple of other papers. The Stars back to form nailing the main political gaff of the day. Is this some other old vintage comedy I haven’t seen? It still looks funny even without understanding it.
Well at last, the Mail are gradually now inching towards defeat on their Starmer attack, conceding on their front page this evening that criminality rests on wether he carried on working after his 10pm take away. Really, I after all this innuendi it hinges on that? A few days ago they had someone who delivered 30 curries - if they hadn’t made that up it was true it would have given Labour a question to answer, but the Mail conceding criminality hinges on wether someone went back to work after a 10pm takeaway is surely sign they took it as far as they can?
The mail and the Tories repeating this stuff are coming close now to losing in the courts themselves if legally challenged, very close to claiming criminality they cannot support with any evidence - certainly on the Rayner libel they will need at least one person to swear in court in support of their story. What do you think? Angela’s libel writ Mail would have to settle out of court with page 2 apology?
This is the kicker - Mail are printing this, the real political headline is the bad day Boris and government have just had - Boris cost of heating gaff, the admittance Rwanda plan delayed, judges told covid loans went to ISIS, and Boris had a choice, he really didn’t need to impersonate Winston Churchill like an end of the pier show, he could have been himself with his own original sound bites. At the end of the day we must remember, Boris Johnson knows more than anyone what is to come about his crimes and mistakes, this could be why his demeanour is so flat? Even his “Churchillian address” to Ukraine parliament appeared a struggle for him. 😕
Good FT article on Irish Unity post-Sinn Fein victory this week
For those that know how to get around the paywall, try this:
“Would a Sinn Féin victory open the door to a united Ireland? “
TL;DR: A Sinn Fein victory in NI will be a minor earthquake, and they could also win in Dublin, but we are many many miles from a United Ireland, and Ulsterpeople show no appetite for a poll
Which is quite understandable, as right now Ulsterpeople have the best deal in Europe - EU Freedom of Movement as Irish citizens yet also UK free trade/NHS as Brits, and as part of Britain. They would be mad to give up this uniquely benign situation
On the plus side, Boris is absorbing a lot of that hatred and resentment, and it will pass with him, like a bad bank, or a decommissioned nuclear site, or in a strange way, Jesus.
“ decommissioned nuclear site “ so about one million years till it’s safe to approach the Tory Party again if they don’t dispose of him properly?
My apologies for carrying this over from the previous thread, but I would like to make three predictions, and one observation:
First, the result of this upcoming decision overturning Roe versus Wade will be an America something like Europe, though perhaps the Europe of a few decades ago, with different states having different laws on abortion. That was already beginning to happen before Roe, and many of those laws are still on the books. It will be possible for women seeking an abortion to go from a state where it would be forbidden to one where it is not. (In fact, if I caught the story right, Amazon is already promising to pay for such trips, for its workers.)
(I think that restoring this decision to legislatures and the votes of the people in states that have referendums and initiatives, will encourage some of the pragmatic regulations seen in many European nations, in the long run.)
Second, this will increase the drift of Hispanics to the Republican Party.
Third, pro-life women will continue to have more children than pro-choice women. You can see this most easily among activists, where it is common for pro-life women to have four -- or more -- children. Justice Barrett is unusual in that, but not unique: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amy_Coney_Barrett
In 1999, Barrett married fellow Notre Dame Law School graduate Jesse M. Barrett, a partner at SouthBank Legal – LaDue Curran & Kuehn LLC, in South Bend, Indiana,[215] and a law professor at Notre Dame Law School.[216] Previously, Jesse Barrett had worked as an Assistant U.S. Attorney for the Northern District of Indiana for 13 years.[217] The couple lives in South Bend and has seven children, two of whom were adopted from Haiti, one in 2005 and one after the 2010 Haiti earthquake.[36][218] Their youngest biological child has Down syndrome.
Agree with you on #1 and mostly #2 but think will change over time via assimilation, but we will see.
As for #3 that's true to degree, but IIRC even religious conservatives are not as fertile as the were in past generations, at least the media is down. AND a certain percentage of the sons and daughters of religious conservatives end up forsaking the faith(s) of their fathers and mothers. Seattle is full of 'em as are plenty of other urban centers, college towns & similar sanctuaries. Plus the ones who stay put (more or less) but stop filling the pews and shouting Hallaluah.
Complaining or exclaiming about major impact of religion upon the United States is a fool's errand.
Seeing as how religion has ALWAYS been a major factor in American history and thus politics. As it used to be in Europe, including UK.
Big difference here was that, unlike you, we did NOT fight bloody wars - civil, uncivil, international - over religion. Conflict, yes. Riots, occasionally. But NOTHING like the English Civil War or Thirty Years War.
Interesting part of our religious heritage - indeed its hallmark - is our diversity of faiths and esp. creeds. Which soon led - as in UK - to opposition to an established church. Difference was that establishment was too weak to survive here for very long, just a few decades after independence in a few states. And was of course banned federally.
We still argue what "separation of church and state" means. But few Americans think it's a bad thing per se - even the nutters!
Maybe you should try it sometime?
I’m sorry @SeaShantyIrish2 but this is nonsense. America is intensely religious in a way that it’s entirely alien to UK/Oz/Canada, and also most Europeans
So you may de jure have separation of church and state but de facto you do not. The Civil War was infused with religious debate and that killed 750,000 Americans - including fully 20% of all Southern men of fighting age
Europeans USED to be intensely religious. Now you are intensely irreligious. Having totally lost your faith due to WAY too much wars of religion, auto de fes and "Gott Mit Uns"
Whereas Americans have NOT lost their faith, for the most part. And only a minority is theologically obsessed - just that it compares with about zilch in Europe PLUS the rest of the county have religious buttons that can definitely be pushed. For good (anti-Slavery), mixed (Prohibition) or ill (anti-Semitism).
I say Prohibition was mixed, because motivation (ending abuse of alcohol) was good but unexpected consequences (Al Capone) were bad. Same with "War on Drugs".
As for US Civil War, plenty of religious feeling on BOTH sides.
For example, Stonewall Jackson's first wife's father was a preacher, with anti-slavery views. Had a BIG influence on Jackson. Unfortunately, his first wife died in childbirth. His second father-in-law was also a minister. But he was pro-slavery. Had a BIG influence on Jackson. Which may well have been determinative, when push came to shove in Virginia after Fort Sumter.
Depends which parts of Europe and America.
Poland and Greece and Romania for example are generally more religious than New England, NYC or the West Coast of the US
If the genotype theory of political attitudes were true ("we will outbreed the pro-choicers!"), many aspects of society would look very different across the world, so I don't think it is the most important factor.
Indeed. Makes the logarithmic rise of gay rights sentiment somewhat unfathomable.
I used to see the UK and US as a common brethren but I think the obsessions with gays, guns, and God so many in America have is bizarre.
The UK had one school shooting and all the parties united to pass some of the strongest gun control laws in the world, whereas in America they've had so many school shootings and nothing changes.
BTW, polls closed 15 min ago in 80 of Indiana's 92 counties.
When I worked as a poll inspector in Indiana (chief polling place officer) we had to count all the absentee votes, then all the votes cast on the day at our polling place. Then sign a mass of paperwork. Takes a while IF there's even moderate turnout.
PLUS anyone who is standing in line when polls officially close, is allowed to vote, so could be some time after 6pm when voting actually ends in some places, and counting begins.
Good FT article on Irish Unity post-Sinn Fein victory this week
For those that know how to get around the paywall, try this:
“Would a Sinn Féin victory open the door to a united Ireland? “
TL;DR: A Sinn Fein victory in NI will be a minor earthquake, and they could also win in Dublin, but we are many many miles from a United Ireland, and Ulsterpeople show no appetite for a poll
Which is quite understandable, as right now Ulsterpeople have the best deal in Europe - EU Freedom of Movement as Irish citizens yet also UK free trade/NHS as Brits, and as part of Britain. They would be mad to give up this uniquely benign situation
The DUP need you as policy advisor 😆
Seriously, I don’t trust the politicians there as being honest. Sinn Fane talk down border poll and United ireland because they know it’s costs them votes, the talking it down is not the same thing as not desiring it. That’s the bit you got wrong Leon, Nationalists would quite happily choose poor even skint if they could think of themselves free.
Jeez that’s a lot of curry ! The DM have done their best to protect Johnson by their false equivalence but the BP profits being announced today and no 10 still refusing anything to do with a windfall tax is a pretty awful look in the run up to the local elections .
The Metro has another story that’s hardly a vote winner re the covid loans !
Is it? A dozen folk at £15 per head plus drinks.
Lol! I was being sarcastic re the curry ! I expect a Beergate to disappear from the DM come Friday!
Being professional journalist I bet they wished they were allowed to print COVID LOANS GIVEN TO ISIS like a couple of other papers. The Stars back to form nailing the main political gaff of the day. Is this some other old vintage comedy I haven’t seen? It still looks funny even without understanding it.
Well at last, the Mail are gradually now inching towards defeat on their Starmer attack, conceding on their front page this evening that criminality rests on wether he carried on working after his 10pm take away. Really, I after all this innuendi it hinges on that? A few days ago they had someone who delivered 30 curries - if they hadn’t made that up it was true it would have given Labour a question to answer, but the Mail conceding criminality hinges on wether someone went back to work after a 10pm takeaway is surely sign they took it as far as they can?
The mail and the Tories repeating this stuff are coming close now to losing in the courts themselves if legally challenged, very close to claiming criminality they cannot support with any evidence - certainly on the Rayner libel they will need at least one person to swear in court in support of their story. What do you think? Angela’s libel writ Mail would have to settle out of court with page 2 apology?
This is the kicker - Mail are printing this, the real political headline is the bad day Boris and government have just had - Boris cost of heating gaff, the admittance Rwanda plan delayed, judges told covid loans went to ISIS, and Boris had a choice, he really didn’t need to impersonate Winston Churchill like an end of the pier show, he could have been himself with his own original sound bites. At the end of the day we must remember, Boris Johnson knows more than anyone what is to come about his crimes and mistakes, this could be why his demeanour is so flat? Even his “Churchillian address” to Ukraine parliament appeared a struggle for him. 😕
I saw a bit of Susannah Reid interviewing Johnson on GMB earler. Ouch!
Its easy to see why he hides in fridges and only does set pieces to hand picked audiences.
Jeez that’s a lot of curry ! The DM have done their best to protect Johnson by their false equivalence but the BP profits being announced today and no 10 still refusing anything to do with a windfall tax is a pretty awful look in the run up to the local elections .
The Metro has another story that’s hardly a vote winner re the covid loans !
Is it? A dozen folk at £15 per head plus drinks.
Lol! I was being sarcastic re the curry ! I expect a Beergate to disappear from the DM come Friday!
Being professional journalist I bet they wished they were allowed to print COVID LOANS GIVEN TO ISIS like a couple of other papers. The Stars back to form nailing the main political gaff of the day. Is this some other old vintage comedy I haven’t seen? It still looks funny even without understanding it.
Well at last, the Mail are gradually now inching towards defeat on their Starmer attack, conceding on their front page this evening that criminality rests on wether he carried on working after his 10pm take away. Really, I after all this innuendi it hinges on that? A few days ago they had someone who delivered 30 curries - if they hadn’t made that up it was true it would have given Labour a question to answer, but the Mail conceding criminality hinges on wether someone went back to work after a 10pm takeaway is surely sign they took it as far as they can?
The mail and the Tories repeating this stuff are coming close now to losing in the courts themselves if legally challenged, very close to claiming criminality they cannot support with any evidence - certainly on the Rayner libel they will need at least one person to swear in court in support of their story. What do you think? Angela’s libel writ Mail would have to settle out of court with page 2 apology?
This is the kicker - Mail are printing this, the real political headline is the bad day Boris and government have just had - Boris cost of heating gaff, the admittance Rwanda plan delayed, judges told covid loans went to ISIS, and Boris had a choice, he really didn’t need to impersonate Winston Churchill like an end of the pier show, he could have been himself with his own original sound bites. At the end of the day we must remember, Boris Johnson knows more than anyone what is to come about his crimes and mistakes, this could be why his demeanour is so flat? Even his “Churchillian address” to Ukraine parliament appeared a struggle for him. 😕
I imagine that the Mail are smart enough to ensure that everything they write is libel-proof; "we're just asking questions" yada yada. But it increasingly looks like a Zombie story; Labour can't really kill it because it probably wasn't a living thing in the first place.
The bigger problem for the Mail is that many of their readers must be getting bored of this by now. How long are they prepared to keep flogging it?
Jeez that’s a lot of curry ! The DM have done their best to protect Johnson by their false equivalence but the BP profits being announced today and no 10 still refusing anything to do with a windfall tax is a pretty awful look in the run up to the local elections .
The Metro has another story that’s hardly a vote winner re the covid loans !
Is it? A dozen folk at £15 per head plus drinks.
Lol! I was being sarcastic re the curry ! I expect a Beergate to disappear from the DM come Friday!
Being professional journalist I bet they wished they were allowed to print COVID LOANS GIVEN TO ISIS like a couple of other papers. The Stars back to form nailing the main political gaff of the day. Is this some other old vintage comedy I haven’t seen? It still looks funny even without understanding it.
Well at last, the Mail are gradually now inching towards defeat on their Starmer attack, conceding on their front page this evening that criminality rests on wether he carried on working after his 10pm take away. Really, I after all this innuendi it hinges on that? A few days ago they had someone who delivered 30 curries - if they hadn’t made that up it was true it would have given Labour a question to answer, but the Mail conceding criminality hinges on wether someone went back to work after a 10pm takeaway is surely sign they took it as far as they can?
The mail and the Tories repeating this stuff are coming close now to losing in the courts themselves if legally challenged, very close to claiming criminality they cannot support with any evidence - certainly on the Rayner libel they will need at least one person to swear in court in support of their story. What do you think? Angela’s libel writ Mail would have to settle out of court with page 2 apology?
This is the kicker - Mail are printing this, the real political headline is the bad day Boris and government have just had - Boris cost of heating gaff, the admittance Rwanda plan delayed, judges told covid loans went to ISIS, and Boris had a choice, he really didn’t need to impersonate Winston Churchill like an end of the pier show, he could have been himself with his own original sound bites. At the end of the day we must remember, Boris Johnson knows more than anyone what is to come about his crimes and mistakes, this could be why his demeanour is so flat? Even his “Churchillian address” to Ukraine parliament appeared a struggle for him. 😕
I’m not sure how you prove people went back to work after the curry . If you finished eating and then sit there discussing the campaign is that work ?
I agree today has been bad for the Tories local elections hopes , the BP profit news couldn’t have dropped at a worse time for them and Johnson’s performance on GMB was awful . His Churchill tribute act was cringe worthy and the timing looked like a desperate attempt to sway some voters with the local elections coming up.
Jeez that’s a lot of curry ! The DM have done their best to protect Johnson by their false equivalence but the BP profits being announced today and no 10 still refusing anything to do with a windfall tax is a pretty awful look in the run up to the local elections .
The Metro has another story that’s hardly a vote winner re the covid loans !
Is it? A dozen folk at £15 per head plus drinks.
Lol! I was being sarcastic re the curry ! I expect a Beergate to disappear from the DM come Friday!
Being professional journalist I bet they wished they were allowed to print COVID LOANS GIVEN TO ISIS like a couple of other papers. The Stars back to form nailing the main political gaff of the day. Is this some other old vintage comedy I haven’t seen? It still looks funny even without understanding it.
Well at last, the Mail are gradually now inching towards defeat on their Starmer attack, conceding on their front page this evening that criminality rests on wether he carried on working after his 10pm take away. Really, I after all this innuendi it hinges on that? A few days ago they had someone who delivered 30 curries - if they hadn’t made that up it was true it would have given Labour a question to answer, but the Mail conceding criminality hinges on wether someone went back to work after a 10pm takeaway is surely sign they took it as far as they can?
The mail and the Tories repeating this stuff are coming close now to losing in the courts themselves if legally challenged, very close to claiming criminality they cannot support with any evidence - certainly on the Rayner libel they will need at least one person to swear in court in support of their story. What do you think? Angela’s libel writ Mail would have to settle out of court with page 2 apology?
This is the kicker - Mail are printing this, the real political headline is the bad day Boris and government have just had - Boris cost of heating gaff, the admittance Rwanda plan delayed, judges told covid loans went to ISIS, and Boris had a choice, he really didn’t need to impersonate Winston Churchill like an end of the pier show, he could have been himself with his own original sound bites. At the end of the day we must remember, Boris Johnson knows more than anyone what is to come about his crimes and mistakes, this could be why his demeanour is so flat? Even his “Churchillian address” to Ukraine parliament appeared a struggle for him. 😕
I’m not sure how you prove people went back to work after the curry . If you finished eating and then sit there discussing the campaign is that work ?
I agree today has been bad for the Tories local elections hopes , the BP profit news couldn’t have dropped at a worse time for them and Johnson’s performance on GMB was awful . His Churchill tribute act was cringe worthy and the timing looked like a desperate attempt to sway some voters with the local elections coming up.
The timing may be suspect but I can't say I saw anything particularly cringeworthy about the speech he gave. Vaguely stirring boosting is something he's ok at, even if his UK attempts don't work so well thesedays.
Good FT article on Irish Unity post-Sinn Fein victory this week
For those that know how to get around the paywall, try this:
“Would a Sinn Féin victory open the door to a united Ireland? “
TL;DR: A Sinn Fein victory in NI will be a minor earthquake, and they could also win in Dublin, but we are many many miles from a United Ireland, and Ulsterpeople show no appetite for a poll
Which is quite understandable, as right now Ulsterpeople have the best deal in Europe - EU Freedom of Movement as Irish citizens yet also UK free trade/NHS as Brits, and as part of Britain. They would be mad to give up this uniquely benign situation
The DUP need you as policy advisor 😆
Seriously, I don’t trust the politicians there as being honest. Sinn Fane talk down border poll and United ireland because they know it’s costs them votes, the talking it down is not the same thing as not desiring it. That’s the bit you got wrong Leon, Nationalists would quite happily choose poor even skint if they could think of themselves free.
But they would lose quite badly, and possibly kick off the Troubles again
Like the SNP, I suspect they will become too accustomed to the milk of British kindness
Jeez that’s a lot of curry ! The DM have done their best to protect Johnson by their false equivalence but the BP profits being announced today and no 10 still refusing anything to do with a windfall tax is a pretty awful look in the run up to the local elections .
The Metro has another story that’s hardly a vote winner re the covid loans !
Is it? A dozen folk at £15 per head plus drinks.
Lol! I was being sarcastic re the curry ! I expect a Beergate to disappear from the DM come Friday!
Being professional journalist I bet they wished they were allowed to print COVID LOANS GIVEN TO ISIS like a couple of other papers. The Stars back to form nailing the main political gaff of the day. Is this some other old vintage comedy I haven’t seen? It still looks funny even without understanding it.
Well at last, the Mail are gradually now inching towards defeat on their Starmer attack, conceding on their front page this evening that criminality rests on wether he carried on working after his 10pm take away. Really, I after all this innuendi it hinges on that? A few days ago they had someone who delivered 30 curries - if they hadn’t made that up it was true it would have given Labour a question to answer, but the Mail conceding criminality hinges on wether someone went back to work after a 10pm takeaway is surely sign they took it as far as they can?
The mail and the Tories repeating this stuff are coming close now to losing in the courts themselves if legally challenged, very close to claiming criminality they cannot support with any evidence - certainly on the Rayner libel they will need at least one person to swear in court in support of their story. What do you think? Angela’s libel writ Mail would have to settle out of court with page 2 apology?
This is the kicker - Mail are printing this, the real political headline is the bad day Boris and government have just had - Boris cost of heating gaff, the admittance Rwanda plan delayed, judges told covid loans went to ISIS, and Boris had a choice, he really didn’t need to impersonate Winston Churchill like an end of the pier show, he could have been himself with his own original sound bites. At the end of the day we must remember, Boris Johnson knows more than anyone what is to come about his crimes and mistakes, this could be why his demeanour is so flat? Even his “Churchillian address” to Ukraine parliament appeared a struggle for him. 😕
I imagine that the Mail are smart enough to ensure that everything they write is libel-proof; "we're just asking questions" yada yada. But it increasingly looks like a Zombie story; Labour can't really kill it because it probably wasn't a living thing in the first place.
The bigger problem for the Mail is that many of their readers must be getting bored of this by now. How long are they prepared to keep flogging it?
Mail readers have a boredom threshold? Quite an achievement if so. Like Bob Beamon.
My apologies for carrying this over from the previous thread, but I would like to make three predictions, and one observation:
First, the result of this upcoming decision overturning Roe versus Wade will be an America something like Europe, though perhaps the Europe of a few decades ago, with different states having different laws on abortion. That was already beginning to happen before Roe, and many of those laws are still on the books. It will be possible for women seeking an abortion to go from a state where it would be forbidden to one where it is not. (In fact, if I caught the story right, Amazon is already promising to pay for such trips, for its workers.)
(I think that restoring this decision to legislatures and the votes of the people in states that have referendums and initiatives, will encourage some of the pragmatic regulations seen in many European nations, in the long run.)
Second, this will increase the drift of Hispanics to the Republican Party.
Third, pro-life women will continue to have more children than pro-choice women. You can see this most easily among activists, where it is common for pro-life women to have four -- or more -- children. Justice Barrett is unusual in that, but not unique: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amy_Coney_Barrett
In 1999, Barrett married fellow Notre Dame Law School graduate Jesse M. Barrett, a partner at SouthBank Legal – LaDue Curran & Kuehn LLC, in South Bend, Indiana,[215] and a law professor at Notre Dame Law School.[216] Previously, Jesse Barrett had worked as an Assistant U.S. Attorney for the Northern District of Indiana for 13 years.[217] The couple lives in South Bend and has seven children, two of whom were adopted from Haiti, one in 2005 and one after the 2010 Haiti earthquake.[36][218] Their youngest biological child has Down syndrome.
Complaining or exclaiming about major impact of religion upon the United States is a fool's errand.
Seeing as how religion has ALWAYS been a major factor in American history and thus politics. As it used to be in Europe, including UK.
Big difference here was that, unlike you, we did NOT fight bloody wars - civil, uncivil, international - over religion. Conflict, yes. Riots, occasionally. But NOTHING like the English Civil War or Thirty Years War.
Interesting part of our religious heritage - indeed its hallmark - is our diversity of faiths and esp. creeds. Which soon led - as in UK - to opposition to an established church. Difference was that establishment was too weak to survive here for very long, just a few decades after independence in a few states. And was of course banned federally.
We still argue what "separation of church and state" means. But few Americans think it's a bad thing per se - even the nutters!
Maybe you should try it sometime?
I’m sorry @SeaShantyIrish2 but this is nonsense. America is intensely religious in a way that it’s entirely alien to UK/Oz/Canada, and also most Europeans
So you may de jure have separation of church and state but de facto you do not. The Civil War was infused with religious debate and that killed 750,000 Americans - including fully 20% of all Southern men of fighting age
Europeans USED to be intensely religious. Now you are intensely irreligious. Having totally lost your faith due to WAY too much wars of religion.
Was that really a factor in the decline? People were plenty religious for a quite some time after wars of religion.
Until World War II. Eggheads started doubting with Darwin, but it was mass industrial slaughter of Somme and Verdun that killed religion in (western) Europe.
Jeez that’s a lot of curry ! The DM have done their best to protect Johnson by their false equivalence but the BP profits being announced today and no 10 still refusing anything to do with a windfall tax is a pretty awful look in the run up to the local elections .
The Metro has another story that’s hardly a vote winner re the covid loans !
Is it? A dozen folk at £15 per head plus drinks.
Lol! I was being sarcastic re the curry ! I expect a Beergate to disappear from the DM come Friday!
Being professional journalist I bet they wished they were allowed to print COVID LOANS GIVEN TO ISIS like a couple of other papers. The Stars back to form nailing the main political gaff of the day. Is this some other old vintage comedy I haven’t seen? It still looks funny even without understanding it.
Well at last, the Mail are gradually now inching towards defeat on their Starmer attack, conceding on their front page this evening that criminality rests on wether he carried on working after his 10pm take away. Really, I after all this innuendi it hinges on that? A few days ago they had someone who delivered 30 curries - if they hadn’t made that up it was true it would have given Labour a question to answer, but the Mail conceding criminality hinges on wether someone went back to work after a 10pm takeaway is surely sign they took it as far as they can?
The mail and the Tories repeating this stuff are coming close now to losing in the courts themselves if legally challenged, very close to claiming criminality they cannot support with any evidence - certainly on the Rayner libel they will need at least one person to swear in court in support of their story. What do you think? Angela’s libel writ Mail would have to settle out of court with page 2 apology?
This is the kicker - Mail are printing this, the real political headline is the bad day Boris and government have just had - Boris cost of heating gaff, the admittance Rwanda plan delayed, judges told covid loans went to ISIS, and Boris had a choice, he really didn’t need to impersonate Winston Churchill like an end of the pier show, he could have been himself with his own original sound bites. At the end of the day we must remember, Boris Johnson knows more than anyone what is to come about his crimes and mistakes, this could be why his demeanour is so flat? Even his “Churchillian address” to Ukraine parliament appeared a struggle for him. 😕
I’m not sure how you prove people went back to work after the curry . If you finished eating and then sit there discussing the campaign is that work ?
I agree today has been bad for the Tories local elections hopes , the BP profit news couldn’t have dropped at a worse time for them and Johnson’s performance on GMB was awful . His Churchill tribute act was cringe worthy and the timing looked like a desperate attempt to sway some voters with the local elections coming up.
Shells mega profits drop on Thursday morning. 🤣
No you are right sorry, the police ain’t dumb, at some point they had a conversation just like that “how do you prove or disprove people went back to work after a curry?” and then said to themselves “exactly, that’s why we ain’t going there.” The mail with the “hint hint” story all along never admitted, will never admit, that’s what it boiled down to if illegal or not hence uninvestigateable.
Jeez that’s a lot of curry ! The DM have done their best to protect Johnson by their false equivalence but the BP profits being announced today and no 10 still refusing anything to do with a windfall tax is a pretty awful look in the run up to the local elections .
The Metro has another story that’s hardly a vote winner re the covid loans !
Is it? A dozen folk at £15 per head plus drinks.
Lol! I was being sarcastic re the curry ! I expect a Beergate to disappear from the DM come Friday!
Being professional journalist I bet they wished they were allowed to print COVID LOANS GIVEN TO ISIS like a couple of other papers. The Stars back to form nailing the main political gaff of the day. Is this some other old vintage comedy I haven’t seen? It still looks funny even without understanding it.
Well at last, the Mail are gradually now inching towards defeat on their Starmer attack, conceding on their front page this evening that criminality rests on wether he carried on working after his 10pm take away. Really, I after all this innuendi it hinges on that? A few days ago they had someone who delivered 30 curries - if they hadn’t made that up it was true it would have given Labour a question to answer, but the Mail conceding criminality hinges on wether someone went back to work after a 10pm takeaway is surely sign they took it as far as they can?
The mail and the Tories repeating this stuff are coming close now to losing in the courts themselves if legally challenged, very close to claiming criminality they cannot support with any evidence - certainly on the Rayner libel they will need at least one person to swear in court in support of their story. What do you think? Angela’s libel writ Mail would have to settle out of court with page 2 apology?
This is the kicker - Mail are printing this, the real political headline is the bad day Boris and government have just had - Boris cost of heating gaff, the admittance Rwanda plan delayed, judges told covid loans went to ISIS, and Boris had a choice, he really didn’t need to impersonate Winston Churchill like an end of the pier show, he could have been himself with his own original sound bites. At the end of the day we must remember, Boris Johnson knows more than anyone what is to come about his crimes and mistakes, this could be why his demeanour is so flat? Even his “Churchillian address” to Ukraine parliament appeared a struggle for him. 😕
I imagine that the Mail are smart enough to ensure that everything they write is libel-proof; "we're just asking questions" yada yada. But it increasingly looks like a Zombie story; Labour can't really kill it because it probably wasn't a living thing in the first place.
The bigger problem for the Mail is that many of their readers must be getting bored of this by now. How long are they prepared to keep flogging it?
My mum reads it religiously cover to cover every day. She agrees with every single word of it before it is even delivered.
Backing Brexit if you lived in NI was unforgivable given its troubled history . The DUP are a loathsome bunch of religious nutjobs and got their just desserts when Johnson shafted them .
Jeez that’s a lot of curry ! The DM have done their best to protect Johnson by their false equivalence but the BP profits being announced today and no 10 still refusing anything to do with a windfall tax is a pretty awful look in the run up to the local elections .
The Metro has another story that’s hardly a vote winner re the covid loans !
Is it? A dozen folk at £15 per head plus drinks.
Lol! I was being sarcastic re the curry ! I expect a Beergate to disappear from the DM come Friday!
Being professional journalist I bet they wished they were allowed to print COVID LOANS GIVEN TO ISIS like a couple of other papers. The Stars back to form nailing the main political gaff of the day. Is this some other old vintage comedy I haven’t seen? It still looks funny even without understanding it.
Well at last, the Mail are gradually now inching towards defeat on their Starmer attack, conceding on their front page this evening that criminality rests on wether he carried on working after his 10pm take away. Really, I after all this innuendi it hinges on that? A few days ago they had someone who delivered 30 curries - if they hadn’t made that up it was true it would have given Labour a question to answer, but the Mail conceding criminality hinges on wether someone went back to work after a 10pm takeaway is surely sign they took it as far as they can?
The mail and the Tories repeating this stuff are coming close now to losing in the courts themselves if legally challenged, very close to claiming criminality they cannot support with any evidence - certainly on the Rayner libel they will need at least one person to swear in court in support of their story. What do you think? Angela’s libel writ Mail would have to settle out of court with page 2 apology?
This is the kicker - Mail are printing this, the real political headline is the bad day Boris and government have just had - Boris cost of heating gaff, the admittance Rwanda plan delayed, judges told covid loans went to ISIS, and Boris had a choice, he really didn’t need to impersonate Winston Churchill like an end of the pier show, he could have been himself with his own original sound bites. At the end of the day we must remember, Boris Johnson knows more than anyone what is to come about his crimes and mistakes, this could be why his demeanour is so flat? Even his “Churchillian address” to Ukraine parliament appeared a struggle for him. 😕
I saw a bit of Susannah Reid interviewing Johnson on GMB earler. Ouch!
Its easy to see why he hides in fridges and only does set pieces to hand picked audiences.
Boris Johnson the fearless Churchillian leader …not coming to Woman’s Hour and Emma Barnet any time soon 😆
“What do you say to this old lady pensioner who has to travel on buses to keep warm, the alternative is death” “Thank me for those bus passes, one of my great, one of many of my great, policy successes.”
6th District Republican Primary Updated 6m ago 6% REPORTED Candidate Votes Greg Pence* (incumbent - older brother of Mike Pence) 2,484 75.1% James Alspach 825 24.9% Total reported 3,309
Jeez that’s a lot of curry ! The DM have done their best to protect Johnson by their false equivalence but the BP profits being announced today and no 10 still refusing anything to do with a windfall tax is a pretty awful look in the run up to the local elections .
The Metro has another story that’s hardly a vote winner re the covid loans !
Is it? A dozen folk at £15 per head plus drinks.
Lol! I was being sarcastic re the curry ! I expect a Beergate to disappear from the DM come Friday!
Being professional journalist I bet they wished they were allowed to print COVID LOANS GIVEN TO ISIS like a couple of other papers. The Stars back to form nailing the main political gaff of the day. Is this some other old vintage comedy I haven’t seen? It still looks funny even without understanding it.
Well at last, the Mail are gradually now inching towards defeat on their Starmer attack, conceding on their front page this evening that criminality rests on wether he carried on working after his 10pm take away. Really, I after all this innuendi it hinges on that? A few days ago they had someone who delivered 30 curries - if they hadn’t made that up it was true it would have given Labour a question to answer, but the Mail conceding criminality hinges on wether someone went back to work after a 10pm takeaway is surely sign they took it as far as they can?
The mail and the Tories repeating this stuff are coming close now to losing in the courts themselves if legally challenged, very close to claiming criminality they cannot support with any evidence - certainly on the Rayner libel they will need at least one person to swear in court in support of their story. What do you think? Angela’s libel writ Mail would have to settle out of court with page 2 apology?
This is the kicker - Mail are printing this, the real political headline is the bad day Boris and government have just had - Boris cost of heating gaff, the admittance Rwanda plan delayed, judges told covid loans went to ISIS, and Boris had a choice, he really didn’t need to impersonate Winston Churchill like an end of the pier show, he could have been himself with his own original sound bites. At the end of the day we must remember, Boris Johnson knows more than anyone what is to come about his crimes and mistakes, this could be why his demeanour is so flat? Even his “Churchillian address” to Ukraine parliament appeared a struggle for him. 😕
I imagine that the Mail are smart enough to ensure that everything they write is libel-proof; "we're just asking questions" yada yada. But it increasingly looks like a Zombie story; Labour can't really kill it because it probably wasn't a living thing in the first place.
The bigger problem for the Mail is that many of their readers must be getting bored of this by now. How long are they prepared to keep flogging it?
My mum reads it religiously cover to cover every day. She agrees with every single word of it before it is even delivered.
Tell her the Shady Pines Retirement Home awaits unless she stops buying that hateful rag! You have to be a Golden Girls fan to get that!
I’m enjoying PB getting tribal and argumentative ahead of these elections. 🙂
so here’s some terrible bad news for both Labour and Tory supporters - your parties are entering these elections with the same two flawed old geezers as your leaders. Good Luck 😝
Jeez that’s a lot of curry ! The DM have done their best to protect Johnson by their false equivalence but the BP profits being announced today and no 10 still refusing anything to do with a windfall tax is a pretty awful look in the run up to the local elections .
The Metro has another story that’s hardly a vote winner re the covid loans !
Is it? A dozen folk at £15 per head plus drinks.
Lol! I was being sarcastic re the curry ! I expect a Beergate to disappear from the DM come Friday!
Being professional journalist I bet they wished they were allowed to print COVID LOANS GIVEN TO ISIS like a couple of other papers. The Stars back to form nailing the main political gaff of the day. Is this some other old vintage comedy I haven’t seen? It still looks funny even without understanding it.
Well at last, the Mail are gradually now inching towards defeat on their Starmer attack, conceding on their front page this evening that criminality rests on wether he carried on working after his 10pm take away. Really, I after all this innuendi it hinges on that? A few days ago they had someone who delivered 30 curries - if they hadn’t made that up it was true it would have given Labour a question to answer, but the Mail conceding criminality hinges on wether someone went back to work after a 10pm takeaway is surely sign they took it as far as they can?
The mail and the Tories repeating this stuff are coming close now to losing in the courts themselves if legally challenged, very close to claiming criminality they cannot support with any evidence - certainly on the Rayner libel they will need at least one person to swear in court in support of their story. What do you think? Angela’s libel writ Mail would have to settle out of court with page 2 apology?
This is the kicker - Mail are printing this, the real political headline is the bad day Boris and government have just had - Boris cost of heating gaff, the admittance Rwanda plan delayed, judges told covid loans went to ISIS, and Boris had a choice, he really didn’t need to impersonate Winston Churchill like an end of the pier show, he could have been himself with his own original sound bites. At the end of the day we must remember, Boris Johnson knows more than anyone what is to come about his crimes and mistakes, this could be why his demeanour is so flat? Even his “Churchillian address” to Ukraine parliament appeared a struggle for him. 😕
I imagine that the Mail are smart enough to ensure that everything they write is libel-proof; "we're just asking questions" yada yada. But it increasingly looks like a Zombie story; Labour can't really kill it because it probably wasn't a living thing in the first place.
The bigger problem for the Mail is that many of their readers must be getting bored of this by now. How long are they prepared to keep flogging it?
My mum reads it religiously cover to cover every day. She agrees with every single word of it before it is even delivered.
And my wife, sadly. Ironically I buy it for her!!!
Jeez that’s a lot of curry ! The DM have done their best to protect Johnson by their false equivalence but the BP profits being announced today and no 10 still refusing anything to do with a windfall tax is a pretty awful look in the run up to the local elections .
The Metro has another story that’s hardly a vote winner re the covid loans !
Is it? A dozen folk at £15 per head plus drinks.
Lol! I was being sarcastic re the curry ! I expect a Beergate to disappear from the DM come Friday!
Being professional journalist I bet they wished they were allowed to print COVID LOANS GIVEN TO ISIS like a couple of other papers. The Stars back to form nailing the main political gaff of the day. Is this some other old vintage comedy I haven’t seen? It still looks funny even without understanding it.
Well at last, the Mail are gradually now inching towards defeat on their Starmer attack, conceding on their front page this evening that criminality rests on wether he carried on working after his 10pm take away. Really, I after all this innuendi it hinges on that? A few days ago they had someone who delivered 30 curries - if they hadn’t made that up it was true it would have given Labour a question to answer, but the Mail conceding criminality hinges on wether someone went back to work after a 10pm takeaway is surely sign they took it as far as they can?
The mail and the Tories repeating this stuff are coming close now to losing in the courts themselves if legally challenged, very close to claiming criminality they cannot support with any evidence - certainly on the Rayner libel they will need at least one person to swear in court in support of their story. What do you think? Angela’s libel writ Mail would have to settle out of court with page 2 apology?
This is the kicker - Mail are printing this, the real political headline is the bad day Boris and government have just had - Boris cost of heating gaff, the admittance Rwanda plan delayed, judges told covid loans went to ISIS, and Boris had a choice, he really didn’t need to impersonate Winston Churchill like an end of the pier show, he could have been himself with his own original sound bites. At the end of the day we must remember, Boris Johnson knows more than anyone what is to come about his crimes and mistakes, this could be why his demeanour is so flat? Even his “Churchillian address” to Ukraine parliament appeared a struggle for him. 😕
I imagine that the Mail are smart enough to ensure that everything they write is libel-proof; "we're just asking questions" yada yada. But it increasingly looks like a Zombie story; Labour can't really kill it because it probably wasn't a living thing in the first place.
The bigger problem for the Mail is that many of their readers must be getting bored of this by now. How long are they prepared to keep flogging it?
My mum reads it religiously cover to cover every day. She agrees with every single word of it before it is even delivered.
And my wife, sadly. Ironically I buy it for her!!!
I’m enjoying PB getting tribal and argumentative ahead of these elections. 🙂
so here’s some terrible bad news for both Labour and Tory supporters - your parties are entering these elections with the same two flawed old geezers as your leaders. Good Luck 😝
Good job LDs have a fresh new invigorating leader to excite the electorate 👍👍👍
I’m enjoying PB getting tribal and argumentative ahead of these elections. 🙂
so here’s some terrible bad news for both Labour and Tory supporters - your parties are entering these elections with the same two flawed old geezers as your leaders. Good Luck 😝
But one is yesterday's man and the other is unknown - better the devil you know?
p.s. Johnson and Starmer aren't old, I'd much rather a PM at their ages than Blair/Cameron when they weren't ready
On the plus side, Boris is absorbing a lot of that hatred and resentment, and it will pass with him, like a bad bank, or a decommissioned nuclear site, or in a strange way, Jesus.
Boris is like Jesus for taking on our sins is the oddest hot take I've ever seen on this site. 😲
Politics doesn't just pass like that. If the Tories lose the next election, they'll probably be out of power for at least a decade.
It's the sort of thing JRM might say if there was too much wine in the chalice at mass this morning.
Though didn't someone vaguely serious make some vaguely absurd Jesus comparison when BoJo rose from the Covid grave?
More sensibly... one of the potent aspects of Jesus as a story is his ability to act as a scapegoat for everything, really. And the concept of scapegoats is a potent thing deep in the human psyche. Put all the bad on X, and the rest of us can move on, whether that's fair or not. See postwar Germany and Hitler, and the effort needed to make it clear that it wasn't just him.
The Conservatives might have got away with that had they dumped BoJo earlier. Summer 2020, maybe? But now they are too tightly tied up with the man and his flaws. It's still in their interests to get rid, but only for damage limitation reasons.
I accidentally flagged this I think - clumsy thumbs, sorry mods!
I am puzzled by what you think I actually meant. Your 'More sensibly... ' precedes a rather laboured explanation of the purpose of my whole post, which everyone else seems to have managed to grasp without an issue.
It's like I've said 'Good morning', and you've come in and said 'How horribly gauche - for the more sophisticated amongst us, I have actually noticed that it is the morning, and in addition, I would like to wish you all a 'good' morning.'
Jazmine Ulloa 19m ago In what appears to be a last ditch attempt to stop a boost of momentum for J.D. Vance, his opponents have been circulating fliers — online and in paper — accusing him of being a Democrat in disguise.
Jeez that’s a lot of curry ! The DM have done their best to protect Johnson by their false equivalence but the BP profits being announced today and no 10 still refusing anything to do with a windfall tax is a pretty awful look in the run up to the local elections .
The Metro has another story that’s hardly a vote winner re the covid loans !
Is it? A dozen folk at £15 per head plus drinks.
Lol! I was being sarcastic re the curry ! I expect a Beergate to disappear from the DM come Friday!
Being professional journalist I bet they wished they were allowed to print COVID LOANS GIVEN TO ISIS like a couple of other papers. The Stars back to form nailing the main political gaff of the day. Is this some other old vintage comedy I haven’t seen? It still looks funny even without understanding it.
Well at last, the Mail are gradually now inching towards defeat on their Starmer attack, conceding on their front page this evening that criminality rests on wether he carried on working after his 10pm take away. Really, I after all this innuendi it hinges on that? A few days ago they had someone who delivered 30 curries - if they hadn’t made that up it was true it would have given Labour a question to answer, but the Mail conceding criminality hinges on wether someone went back to work after a 10pm takeaway is surely sign they took it as far as they can?
The mail and the Tories repeating this stuff are coming close now to losing in the courts themselves if legally challenged, very close to claiming criminality they cannot support with any evidence - certainly on the Rayner libel they will need at least one person to swear in court in support of their story. What do you think? Angela’s libel writ Mail would have to settle out of court with page 2 apology?
This is the kicker - Mail are printing this, the real political headline is the bad day Boris and government have just had - Boris cost of heating gaff, the admittance Rwanda plan delayed, judges told covid loans went to ISIS, and Boris had a choice, he really didn’t need to impersonate Winston Churchill like an end of the pier show, he could have been himself with his own original sound bites. At the end of the day we must remember, Boris Johnson knows more than anyone what is to come about his crimes and mistakes, this could be why his demeanour is so flat? Even his “Churchillian address” to Ukraine parliament appeared a struggle for him. 😕
I saw a bit of Susannah Reid interviewing Johnson on GMB earler. Ouch!
Its easy to see why he hides in fridges and only does set pieces to hand picked audiences.
Surprisingly ITV News at Ten didn't make anything of it. Susanna was superb! ITV had a good edit of Johnson's speech to Ukraine, which if one watches in full was almost a Peppa Pig train wreck.
Delayed flight to DC, miss my flight to Asia. Everything is fucked
Sorry to hear that. 😕
Even more sorry if it means you have to come home now 😆
I ent comin’ ‘ome
I have a feeling my hideous 23 hour three-flight-connection USA-EU-Asia is about to turn into 36 hours
Feel for you. Just did 3+4.5+14 (and add another 5 for getting to and from airports, check-in and the interminable wait at US immigration) coming home Sunday, and have to do the reverse again on Friday/Saturday.
PS Apologies, did not intend to post the image a second time. Don't know how that happened. Certainly not meant to be a message for Leon
Complaining or exclaiming about major impact of religion upon the United States is a fool's errand.
Seeing as how religion has ALWAYS been a major factor in American history and thus politics. As it used to be in Europe, including UK.
Big difference here was that, unlike you, we did NOT fight bloody wars - civil, uncivil, international - over religion. Conflict, yes. Riots, occasionally. But NOTHING like the English Civil War or Thirty Years War.
Interesting part of our religious heritage - indeed its hallmark - is our diversity of faiths and esp. creeds. Which soon led - as in UK - to opposition to an established church. Difference was that establishment was too weak to survive here for very long, just a few decades after independence in a few states. And was of course banned federally.
We still argue what "separation of church and state" means. But few Americans think it's a bad thing per se - even the nutters!
Maybe you should try it sometime?
I’m sorry @SeaShantyIrish2 but this is nonsense. America is intensely religious in a way that it’s entirely alien to UK/Oz/Canada, and also most Europeans
So you may de jure have separation of church and state but de facto you do not. The Civil War was infused with religious debate and that killed 750,000 Americans - including fully 20% of all Southern men of fighting age
Europeans USED to be intensely religious. Now you are intensely irreligious. Having totally lost your faith due to WAY too much wars of religion, auto de fes and "Gott Mit Uns"
Whereas Americans have NOT lost their faith, for the most part. And only a minority is theologically obsessed - just that it compares with about zilch in Europe PLUS the rest of the county have religious buttons that can definitely be pushed. For good (anti-Slavery), mixed (Prohibition) or ill (anti-Semitism).
I say Prohibition was mixed, because motivation (ending abuse of alcohol) was good but unexpected consequences (Al Capone) were bad. Same with "War on Drugs".
In a sense there is something admirable about America’s debate on abortion
It is akin to the slavery debate, in its power, yet much more nuanced (both sides have good arguments: they obviously did not on slavery). This is a profound and serious moral issue and Americans REALLY care. Perhaps they care too much, and they might end up shooting each other, but arguably that is better than the shrug of the cynical European
Tricky. I’m glad the UK is not embittered by this debate yet I am also glad a serious western society is exercised by it
The UK performed the same service for the rest of the EU when we had Brexit
It's interesting how most conservatives in the UK (and Europe) aren't particularly bothered about the abortion debate.
My mum reads it religiously cover to cover every day. She agrees with every single word of it before it is even delivered.
And my wife, sadly. Ironically I buy it for her!!!
When I was 12, my ultra-tolerant Tory-voting mum used to buy me Land og Folk, the Danish equivalent of the Daily Worker, to read when I got home from school. She was indulging my teenage enthusiasm and enjoyed the startled look of the newsagents at this elegant lady looking for news of the latest dock strike. The things people do for their families...
Speaking of religion in America, one my favorite denomination, confined mostly to few small congregations in Appalachia:
Primitive Baptist Universalists aka "No Hellers"
excerpt from wiki:
Baptist minister and historian Bill Leonard has characterized PBU beliefs as the result of "press[ing] ... Calvinism to the ... conclusion that Christ's redemption is so powerful that all will be redeemed." According to Leonard, PBUs believe "It's hell enough down here."
Specific tenets of PBU theology include:
> Universal reconciliation: Christ's atonement was for all humanity, and at Resurrection all humanity will be reunited with Christ for an eternity in Heaven. > Hell is a factor of the temporal world, where temporal sins will be punished by an increased separation from God. > Satan is an entity solely of the temporal world, existing only as "natural man" warring against "spiritual man." > Sin, punishment, and death are factors only of the temporal world, thus ceasing to exist after Resurrection, and sin is punished in the temporal world by a separation from God. > The joy of righteousness is its own reward, so retribution and reward are needed only for the here and now.
Complaining or exclaiming about major impact of religion upon the United States is a fool's errand.
Seeing as how religion has ALWAYS been a major factor in American history and thus politics. As it used to be in Europe, including UK.
Big difference here was that, unlike you, we did NOT fight bloody wars - civil, uncivil, international - over religion. Conflict, yes. Riots, occasionally. But NOTHING like the English Civil War or Thirty Years War.
Interesting part of our religious heritage - indeed its hallmark - is our diversity of faiths and esp. creeds. Which soon led - as in UK - to opposition to an established church. Difference was that establishment was too weak to survive here for very long, just a few decades after independence in a few states. And was of course banned federally.
We still argue what "separation of church and state" means. But few Americans think it's a bad thing per se - even the nutters!
Maybe you should try it sometime?
I’m sorry @SeaShantyIrish2 but this is nonsense. America is intensely religious in a way that it’s entirely alien to UK/Oz/Canada, and also most Europeans
So you may de jure have separation of church and state but de facto you do not. The Civil War was infused with religious debate and that killed 750,000 Americans - including fully 20% of all Southern men of fighting age
Europeans USED to be intensely religious. Now you are intensely irreligious. Having totally lost your faith due to WAY too much wars of religion, auto de fes and "Gott Mit Uns"
Whereas Americans have NOT lost their faith, for the most part. And only a minority is theologically obsessed - just that it compares with about zilch in Europe PLUS the rest of the county have religious buttons that can definitely be pushed. For good (anti-Slavery), mixed (Prohibition) or ill (anti-Semitism).
I say Prohibition was mixed, because motivation (ending abuse of alcohol) was good but unexpected consequences (Al Capone) were bad. Same with "War on Drugs".
In a sense there is something admirable about America’s debate on abortion
It is akin to the slavery debate, in its power, yet much more nuanced (both sides have good arguments: they obviously did not on slavery). This is a profound and serious moral issue and Americans REALLY care. Perhaps they care too much, and they might end up shooting each other, but arguably that is better than the shrug of the cynical European
Tricky. I’m glad the UK is not embittered by this debate yet I am also glad a serious western society is exercised by it
The UK performed the same service for the rest of the EU when we had Brexit
It's interesting how most conservatives in the UK (and Europe) aren't particularly bothered about the abortion debate.
Some certainly are though eg Jacob Rees Mogg, Ann Widdecombe, Tim Montgomerie and Nadine Dorries and even Jeremy Hunt wants to lower the abortion time limit.
In Poland the governing conservative Law and Justice party too has kept abortion illegal except for rape or to save the life of the mother
Delayed flight to DC, miss my flight to Asia. Everything is fucked
Sorry to hear that. 😕
Even more sorry if it means you have to come home now 😆
I ent comin’ ‘ome
I have a feeling my hideous 23 hour three-flight-connection USA-EU-Asia is about to turn into 36 hours
Well, Louisiana IS a state of incompetence. Also lots of pilot & crew shortages in US airlines.
EDIT - Perhaps wire your editor, rent another car, and head for El Lay by way of Omaha?
I’m right. My next flight is TOMORROW afternoon from DC. Jesus F Christ. It’s turned from 23 hours to about 63 hours
Where are you visiting in Asia?
Greetings from a gradually reopening Bali!
Before COVID Bali welcomed around 20,000 international visitors a day. After April 2020 it didn’t get that many in an entire year. International flights are resuming - from 3/day a few weeks ago to ~20/day now with Australia coming back online. Ubud is busy again, Seminyak less so, Canggu still full of broke Russians who can’t get home.
Depending on your destination you may need to make sure any PCR test is still valid.
Complaining or exclaiming about major impact of religion upon the United States is a fool's errand.
Seeing as how religion has ALWAYS been a major factor in American history and thus politics. As it used to be in Europe, including UK.
Big difference here was that, unlike you, we did NOT fight bloody wars - civil, uncivil, international - over religion. Conflict, yes. Riots, occasionally. But NOTHING like the English Civil War or Thirty Years War.
Interesting part of our religious heritage - indeed its hallmark - is our diversity of faiths and esp. creeds. Which soon led - as in UK - to opposition to an established church. Difference was that establishment was too weak to survive here for very long, just a few decades after independence in a few states. And was of course banned federally.
We still argue what "separation of church and state" means. But few Americans think it's a bad thing per se - even the nutters!
Maybe you should try it sometime?
I’m sorry @SeaShantyIrish2 but this is nonsense. America is intensely religious in a way that it’s entirely alien to UK/Oz/Canada, and also most Europeans
So you may de jure have separation of church and state but de facto you do not. The Civil War was infused with religious debate and that killed 750,000 Americans - including fully 20% of all Southern men of fighting age
Europeans USED to be intensely religious. Now you are intensely irreligious. Having totally lost your faith due to WAY too much wars of religion, auto de fes and "Gott Mit Uns"
Whereas Americans have NOT lost their faith, for the most part. And only a minority is theologically obsessed - just that it compares with about zilch in Europe PLUS the rest of the county have religious buttons that can definitely be pushed. For good (anti-Slavery), mixed (Prohibition) or ill (anti-Semitism).
I say Prohibition was mixed, because motivation (ending abuse of alcohol) was good but unexpected consequences (Al Capone) were bad. Same with "War on Drugs".
In a sense there is something admirable about America’s debate on abortion
It is akin to the slavery debate, in its power, yet much more nuanced (both sides have good arguments: they obviously did not on slavery). This is a profound and serious moral issue and Americans REALLY care. Perhaps they care too much, and they might end up shooting each other, but arguably that is better than the shrug of the cynical European
Tricky. I’m glad the UK is not embittered by this debate yet I am also glad a serious western society is exercised by it
The UK performed the same service for the rest of the EU when we had Brexit
It's interesting how most conservatives in the UK (and Europe) aren't particularly bothered about the abortion debate.
Some certainly are though eg Jacob Rees Mogg, Ann Widdecombe, Tim Montgomerie and Nadine Dorries and even Jeremy Hunt wants to lower the abortion time limit.
But that’s largely driven by medical considerations (survivability of foetus) rather than religious /moral ones isn’t it?
Complaining or exclaiming about major impact of religion upon the United States is a fool's errand.
Seeing as how religion has ALWAYS been a major factor in American history and thus politics. As it used to be in Europe, including UK.
Big difference here was that, unlike you, we did NOT fight bloody wars - civil, uncivil, international - over religion. Conflict, yes. Riots, occasionally. But NOTHING like the English Civil War or Thirty Years War.
Interesting part of our religious heritage - indeed its hallmark - is our diversity of faiths and esp. creeds. Which soon led - as in UK - to opposition to an established church. Difference was that establishment was too weak to survive here for very long, just a few decades after independence in a few states. And was of course banned federally.
We still argue what "separation of church and state" means. But few Americans think it's a bad thing per se - even the nutters!
Maybe you should try it sometime?
I’m sorry @SeaShantyIrish2 but this is nonsense. America is intensely religious in a way that it’s entirely alien to UK/Oz/Canada, and also most Europeans
So you may de jure have separation of church and state but de facto you do not. The Civil War was infused with religious debate and that killed 750,000 Americans - including fully 20% of all Southern men of fighting age
Europeans USED to be intensely religious. Now you are intensely irreligious. Having totally lost your faith due to WAY too much wars of religion, auto de fes and "Gott Mit Uns"
Whereas Americans have NOT lost their faith, for the most part. And only a minority is theologically obsessed - just that it compares with about zilch in Europe PLUS the rest of the county have religious buttons that can definitely be pushed. For good (anti-Slavery), mixed (Prohibition) or ill (anti-Semitism).
I say Prohibition was mixed, because motivation (ending abuse of alcohol) was good but unexpected consequences (Al Capone) were bad. Same with "War on Drugs".
In a sense there is something admirable about America’s debate on abortion
It is akin to the slavery debate, in its power, yet much more nuanced (both sides have good arguments: they obviously did not on slavery). This is a profound and serious moral issue and Americans REALLY care. Perhaps they care too much, and they might end up shooting each other, but arguably that is better than the shrug of the cynical European
Tricky. I’m glad the UK is not embittered by this debate yet I am also glad a serious western society is exercised by it
The UK performed the same service for the rest of the EU when we had Brexit
It's interesting how most conservatives in the UK (and Europe) aren't particularly bothered about the abortion debate.
It is not very interesting imo. There are two related questions that might be interesting.
One in the United States is the extent to which abortion determines a person's vote, in the sense that they would vote for the other party on other issues. Will pro-choice Republicans now vote Democrat? Will pro-life Democrats who were previously voting Republican in order to restrict abortion, now vote Democrat?
And here, might abortion be a Brexit-type issue? One where most people are vaguely content with the status quo, and do not give it a moment's thought from one year to the next, but where that might change if ever they are forced to vote on it because some idiot prime minister calls a referendum in order to buy off a vocal minority on one side or the other.
OHIO US SENATE Republican Updated just now 2% REPORTED Candidate Votes Pct. Matt Dolan 4,221 30.5% J.D. Vance 3,565 25.8% Josh Mandel 2,665 19.3% Mike Gibbons 1,903 13.8% Jane Timken 1,118 8.1% Mark Pukita 193 1.4% Neil Patel 175 1.3% Total reported 13,840
Polls now closing in Ohio; polls in NW & SW Indiana closed half-hour ago
When do we get the results (or a reliable exit poll)?
Don't know re: exit poll. As for actual returns, starting to come in but guessing it will take several hours before bulk of vote is reported. Then almost certainly will have to wait for some slow to report big counties.
Complaining or exclaiming about major impact of religion upon the United States is a fool's errand.
Seeing as how religion has ALWAYS been a major factor in American history and thus politics. As it used to be in Europe, including UK.
Big difference here was that, unlike you, we did NOT fight bloody wars - civil, uncivil, international - over religion. Conflict, yes. Riots, occasionally. But NOTHING like the English Civil War or Thirty Years War.
Interesting part of our religious heritage - indeed its hallmark - is our diversity of faiths and esp. creeds. Which soon led - as in UK - to opposition to an established church. Difference was that establishment was too weak to survive here for very long, just a few decades after independence in a few states. And was of course banned federally.
We still argue what "separation of church and state" means. But few Americans think it's a bad thing per se - even the nutters!
Maybe you should try it sometime?
I’m sorry @SeaShantyIrish2 but this is nonsense. America is intensely religious in a way that it’s entirely alien to UK/Oz/Canada, and also most Europeans
So you may de jure have separation of church and state but de facto you do not. The Civil War was infused with religious debate and that killed 750,000 Americans - including fully 20% of all Southern men of fighting age
Europeans USED to be intensely religious. Now you are intensely irreligious. Having totally lost your faith due to WAY too much wars of religion, auto de fes and "Gott Mit Uns"
Whereas Americans have NOT lost their faith, for the most part. And only a minority is theologically obsessed - just that it compares with about zilch in Europe PLUS the rest of the county have religious buttons that can definitely be pushed. For good (anti-Slavery), mixed (Prohibition) or ill (anti-Semitism).
I say Prohibition was mixed, because motivation (ending abuse of alcohol) was good but unexpected consequences (Al Capone) were bad. Same with "War on Drugs".
In a sense there is something admirable about America’s debate on abortion
It is akin to the slavery debate, in its power, yet much more nuanced (both sides have good arguments: they obviously did not on slavery). This is a profound and serious moral issue and Americans REALLY care. Perhaps they care too much, and they might end up shooting each other, but arguably that is better than the shrug of the cynical European
Tricky. I’m glad the UK is not embittered by this debate yet I am also glad a serious western society is exercised by it
The UK performed the same service for the rest of the EU when we had Brexit
It's interesting how most conservatives in the UK (and Europe) aren't particularly bothered about the abortion debate.
It is not very interesting imo. There are two related questions that might be interesting.
One in the United States is the extent to which abortion determines a person's vote, in the sense that they would vote for the other party on other issues. Will pro-choice Republicans now vote Democrat? Will pro-life Democrats who were previously voting Republican in order to restrict abortion, now vote Democrat?
And here, might abortion be a Brexit-type issue? One where most people are vaguely content with the status quo, and do not give it a moment's thought from one year to the next, but where that might change if ever they are forced to vote on it because some idiot prime minister calls a referendum in order to buy off a vocal minority on one side or the other.
Europe was an issue that tore the country's politics apart for generations, it wasn't just because a PM chose to call a referendum about it.
If you don't think that Europe was already a massive issue in this country pre-2016 (and had been since the 1980s if not earlier) then you weren't paying much attention.
Republican Primary Updated just now 3% REPORTED Candidate Votes Pct. J.D. Vance 8,061 26.5% Matt Dolan 7,564 24.9% Josh Mandel 6,550 21.6% Mike Gibbons 4,491 14.8% Jane Timken 2,782 9.2% Mark Pukita 556 1.8% Neil Patel 384 1.3% Total reported 30,388
Good FT article on Irish Unity post-Sinn Fein victory this week
For those that know how to get around the paywall, try this:
“Would a Sinn Féin victory open the door to a united Ireland? “
TL;DR: A Sinn Fein victory in NI will be a minor earthquake, and they could also win in Dublin, but we are many many miles from a United Ireland, and Ulsterpeople show no appetite for a poll
Which is quite understandable, as right now Ulsterpeople have the best deal in Europe - EU Freedom of Movement as Irish citizens yet also UK free trade/NHS as Brits, and as part of Britain. They would be mad to give up this uniquely benign situation
Why is being the EU a marvelous boon for the Six Counties but a nightmarish obscenity for the rest of the UK?
Complaining or exclaiming about major impact of religion upon the United States is a fool's errand.
Seeing as how religion has ALWAYS been a major factor in American history and thus politics. As it used to be in Europe, including UK.
Big difference here was that, unlike you, we did NOT fight bloody wars - civil, uncivil, international - over religion. Conflict, yes. Riots, occasionally. But NOTHING like the English Civil War or Thirty Years War.
Interesting part of our religious heritage - indeed its hallmark - is our diversity of faiths and esp. creeds. Which soon led - as in UK - to opposition to an established church. Difference was that establishment was too weak to survive here for very long, just a few decades after independence in a few states. And was of course banned federally.
We still argue what "separation of church and state" means. But few Americans think it's a bad thing per se - even the nutters!
Maybe you should try it sometime?
I’m sorry @SeaShantyIrish2 but this is nonsense. America is intensely religious in a way that it’s entirely alien to UK/Oz/Canada, and also most Europeans
So you may de jure have separation of church and state but de facto you do not. The Civil War was infused with religious debate and that killed 750,000 Americans - including fully 20% of all Southern men of fighting age
Europeans USED to be intensely religious. Now you are intensely irreligious. Having totally lost your faith due to WAY too much wars of religion, auto de fes and "Gott Mit Uns"
Whereas Americans have NOT lost their faith, for the most part. And only a minority is theologically obsessed - just that it compares with about zilch in Europe PLUS the rest of the county have religious buttons that can definitely be pushed. For good (anti-Slavery), mixed (Prohibition) or ill (anti-Semitism).
I say Prohibition was mixed, because motivation (ending abuse of alcohol) was good but unexpected consequences (Al Capone) were bad. Same with "War on Drugs".
In a sense there is something admirable about America’s debate on abortion
It is akin to the slavery debate, in its power, yet much more nuanced (both sides have good arguments: they obviously did not on slavery). This is a profound and serious moral issue and Americans REALLY care. Perhaps they care too much, and they might end up shooting each other, but arguably that is better than the shrug of the cynical European
Tricky. I’m glad the UK is not embittered by this debate yet I am also glad a serious western society is exercised by it
The UK performed the same service for the rest of the EU when we had Brexit
It's interesting how most conservatives in the UK (and Europe) aren't particularly bothered about the abortion debate.
It is not very interesting imo. There are two related questions that might be interesting.
One in the United States is the extent to which abortion determines a person's vote, in the sense that they would vote for the other party on other issues. Will pro-choice Republicans now vote Democrat? Will pro-life Democrats who were previously voting Republican in order to restrict abortion, now vote Democrat?
And here, might abortion be a Brexit-type issue? One where most people are vaguely content with the status quo, and do not give it a moment's thought from one year to the next, but where that might change if ever they are forced to vote on it because some idiot prime minister calls a referendum in order to buy off a vocal minority on one side or the other.
Europe was an issue that tore the country's politics apart for generations, it wasn't just because a PM chose to call a referendum about it.
If you don't think that Europe was already a massive issue in this country pre-2016 (and had been since the 1980s if not earlier) then you weren't paying much attention.
Opinion polls repeatedly showed that most people did not give any priority to Europe as an issue.
Vance is winning (albeit with still partial returns everywhere) slew of mostly rural counties (Warren is his biggest so far)
Dolan is carrying Marion (Columbus) only big county to report anything yet, also some mid-sized counties; Mandel is taking some rural & small town counties.
Comments
https://www.liverpoolmuseums.org.uk/artifact/scapegoat
See, for example:
Tortoise
@tortoise
·
3h
“He’s [Trump] created a charismatic death cult out of the Republican party… this is the death knell of US democracy.”
Hear more from former director for Europe and Russia at the US National Security Council, Fiona Hill, on this week’s episode of The Backstory with
@afneil
.
https://twitter.com/tortoise/status/1521545120138465281
Seeing as how religion has ALWAYS been a major factor in American history and thus politics. As it used to be in Europe, including UK.
Big difference here was that, unlike you, we did NOT fight bloody wars - civil, uncivil, international - over religion. Conflict, yes. Riots, occasionally. But NOTHING like the English Civil War or Thirty Years War.
Interesting part of our religious heritage - indeed its hallmark - is our diversity of faiths and esp. creeds. Which soon led - as in UK - to opposition to an established church. Difference was that establishment was too weak to survive here for very long, just a few decades after independence in a few states. And was of course banned federally.
We still argue what "separation of church and state" means. But few Americans think it's a bad thing per se - even the nutters!
Maybe you should try it sometime?
There's a subconscious incentive to see traits that bear similarities with the father, because subconsciously that provides reassurance that the baby is the fathers in case there's any doubt, which is good for society and therefore a survival trait that could have evolved.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FR3SRtUWYAESlVV?format=jpg&name=medium
Accusing Starmer of not answering a straightforward question .
@MrHarryCole
EXC: Met police bodyguards looked on as Sir Keir Starmer and Labour allies consumed £200 of curry…
Fresh pressure for Durham Police to open investigation into #beergate as it emerges fellow cops were witnesses…
https://twitter.com/MrHarryCole/status/1521601164697083906
Which is why they've switched to transexuals. Where they've got some feminist AND gay allies.
Personally think the proliferation of porn - dramatically illustrated this past week - has work this sea change.
Because back in the day, the religious & political right made BIG play re: debauchery of the homosexuals, for example using footage from SF Gay Pride Parade for fundraising & campaign commercials.
But for the last decade and more, all kinds of people - including Christian Coalition types - have had ready access to all kinds of porn - the bulk of it hetero - via the web. And they've taken pretty full advantage, regardless of faith or creed.
Meaning that they've gotten an eyeful - at least - of hetrosexuals getting up to all manner of hanky panky. And somehow, whatever the gays are getting up to, just does NOT seem quite as debauched as back in the day.
Utterly clueless.
The Metro has another story that’s hardly a vote winner re the covid loans !
As opposed to abortion is legal except for ... exceptions where it's not ok.
So you may de jure have separation of church and state but de facto you do not. The Civil War was infused with religious debate and that killed 750,000 Americans - including fully 20% of all Southern men of fighting age
Though didn't someone vaguely serious make some vaguely absurd Jesus comparison when BoJo rose from the Covid grave?
More sensibly... one of the potent aspects of Jesus as a story is his ability to act as a scapegoat for everything, really. And the concept of scapegoats is a potent thing deep in the human psyche. Put all the bad on X, and the rest of us can move on, whether that's fair or not. See postwar Germany and Hitler, and the effort needed to make it clear that it wasn't just him.
The Conservatives might have got away with that had they dumped BoJo earlier. Summer 2020, maybe? But now they are too tightly tied up with the man and his flaws. It's still in their interests to get rid, but only for damage limitation reasons.
Since Victoria Wood has the disadvantage of being dead.
First, the result of this upcoming decision overturning Roe versus Wade will be an America something like Europe, though perhaps the Europe of a few decades ago, with different states having different laws on abortion. That was already beginning to happen before Roe, and many of those laws are still on the books. It will be possible for women seeking an abortion to go from a state where it would be forbidden to one where it is not. (In fact, if I caught the story right, Amazon is already promising to pay for such trips, for its workers.)
(I think that restoring this decision to legislatures and the votes of the people in states that have referendums and initiatives, will encourage some of the pragmatic regulations seen in many European nations, in the long run.)
Second, this will increase the drift of Hispanics to the Republican Party.
Third, pro-life women will continue to have more children than pro-choice women. You can see this most easily among activists, where it is common for pro-life women to have four -- or more -- children. Justice Barrett is unusual in that, but not unique: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amy_Coney_Barrett Finally, this observation. There is a small, but steady, trickle of "snowflake" babies being born. One recently was born from an embryo that had been frozen for 27 years. https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2020/12/01/tn-family-grows-embryo-adoption-baby-born-27-year-old-embryo/3784459001/
(As far as I know the baby is doing fine.)
He is risen.
I also compared Boris to Beowulf when he recovered from Covid: the hero who slew the Grendel of the Virus in her hideous lair, deep in the mere
Whereas Americans have NOT lost their faith, for the most part. And only a minority is theologically obsessed - just that it compares with about zilch in Europe PLUS the rest of the county have religious buttons that can definitely be pushed. For good (anti-Slavery), mixed (Prohibition) or ill (anti-Semitism).
I say Prohibition was mixed, because motivation (ending abuse of alcohol) was good but unexpected consequences (Al Capone) were bad. Same with "War on Drugs".
As for US Civil War, plenty of religious feeling on BOTH sides.
For example, Stonewall Jackson's first wife's father was a preacher, with anti-slavery views. Had a BIG influence on Jackson. Unfortunately, his first wife died in childbirth. His second father-in-law was also a minister. But he was pro-slavery. Had a BIG influence on Jackson. Which may well have been determinative, when push came to shove in Virginia after Fort Sumter.
Thank you for your responses to my article https://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2022/05/02/why-ukraine-was-particularly-vulnerable/ yesterday. I've gone thru your comments and created a conversation on vf.politicalbetting.com with my responses. You can see them there and ask further questions if you wish. If you don't want to take part it has a "Leave Conversation" button on the conversation which you can press. If you don't want to join in it's not a problem and you can cheerfully tell me to f*** off if you want...
I think @BartholomewRoberts answered this point very eloquently.
I will not bore this new thread with further lengthy discussion. But if I may, I will note that if you ban abortion, you also ban IVF. I do not want to see either banned. I think we should do more to help those facing infertility problems. I hope we can live in a world where everyone can have a children when they want and not have children when they don’t want. The Republican Party does not agree.
It is akin to the slavery debate, in its power, yet much more nuanced (both sides have good arguments: they obviously did not on slavery). This is a profound and serious moral issue and Americans REALLY care. Perhaps they care too much, and they might end up shooting each other, but arguably that is better than the shrug of the cynical European
Tricky. I’m glad the UK is not embittered by this debate yet I am also glad a serious western society is exercised by it
The UK performed the same service for the rest of the EU when we had Brexit
Well at last, the Mail are gradually now inching towards defeat on their Starmer attack, conceding on their front page this evening that criminality rests on wether he carried on working after his 10pm take away. Really, I after all this innuendi it hinges on that? A few days ago they had someone who delivered 30 curries - if they hadn’t made that up it was true it would have given Labour a question to answer, but the Mail conceding criminality hinges on wether someone went back to work after a 10pm takeaway is surely sign they took it as far as they can?
The mail and the Tories repeating this stuff are coming close now to losing in the courts themselves if legally challenged, very close to claiming criminality they cannot support with any evidence - certainly on the Rayner libel they will need at least one person to swear in court in support of their story. What do you think? Angela’s libel writ Mail would have to settle out of court with page 2 apology?
This is the kicker - Mail are printing this, the real political headline is the bad day Boris and government have just had - Boris cost of heating gaff, the admittance Rwanda plan delayed, judges told covid loans went to ISIS, and Boris had a choice, he really didn’t need to impersonate Winston Churchill like an end of the pier show, he could have been himself with his own original sound bites. At the end of the day we must remember, Boris Johnson knows more than anyone what is to come about his crimes and mistakes, this could be why his demeanour is so flat? Even his “Churchillian address” to Ukraine parliament appeared a struggle for him. 😕
In the week of a Chelsea Liverpool Cup Final too.
For those that know how to get around the paywall, try this:
“Would a Sinn Féin victory open the door to a united Ireland? “
TL;DR: A Sinn Fein victory in NI will be a minor earthquake, and they could also win in Dublin, but we are many many miles from a United Ireland, and Ulsterpeople show no appetite for a poll
Which is quite understandable, as right now Ulsterpeople have the best deal in Europe - EU Freedom of Movement as Irish citizens yet also UK free trade/NHS as Brits, and as part of Britain. They would be mad to give up this uniquely benign situation
(As far as I know the baby is doing fine.)
Agree with you on #1 and mostly #2 but think will change over time via assimilation, but we will see.
As for #3 that's true to degree, but IIRC even religious conservatives are not as fertile as the were in past generations, at least the media is down. AND a certain percentage of the sons and daughters of religious conservatives end up forsaking the faith(s) of their fathers and mothers. Seattle is full of 'em as are plenty of other urban centers, college towns & similar sanctuaries. Plus the ones who stay put (more or less) but stop filling the pews and shouting Hallaluah.
Poland and Greece and Romania for example are generally more religious than New England, NYC or the West Coast of the US
https://www.theonion.com/no-way-to-prevent-this-says-only-nation-where-this-r-1819576527
When I worked as a poll inspector in Indiana (chief polling place officer) we had to count all the absentee votes, then all the votes cast on the day at our polling place. Then sign a mass of paperwork. Takes a while IF there's even moderate turnout.
PLUS anyone who is standing in line when polls officially close, is allowed to vote, so could be some time after 6pm when voting actually ends in some places, and counting begins.
Seriously, I don’t trust the politicians there as being honest. Sinn Fane talk down border poll and United ireland because they know it’s costs them votes, the talking it down is not the same thing as not desiring it. That’s the bit you got wrong Leon, Nationalists would quite happily choose poor even skint if they could think of themselves free.
Its easy to see why he hides in fridges and only does set pieces to hand picked audiences.
The bigger problem for the Mail is that many of their readers must be getting bored of this by now. How long are they prepared to keep flogging it?
I agree today has been bad for the Tories local elections hopes , the BP profit news couldn’t have dropped at a worse time for them and Johnson’s performance on GMB was awful . His Churchill tribute act was cringe worthy and the timing looked like a desperate attempt to sway some voters with the local elections coming up.
Like the SNP, I suspect they will become too accustomed to the milk of British kindness
(As far as I know the baby is doing fine.)
Interestingly, in Western Europe the lowest birthrates were in those countries where abortion was prohibited longest (Ireland, Italy).
Delayed flight to DC, miss my flight to Asia. Everything is fucked
No you are right sorry, the police ain’t dumb, at some point they had a conversation just like that “how do you prove or disprove people went back to work after a curry?” and then said to themselves “exactly, that’s why we ain’t going there.” The mail with the “hint hint” story all along never admitted, will never admit, that’s what it boiled down to if illegal or not hence uninvestigateable.
Even more sorry if it means you have to come home now 😆
“What do you say to this old lady pensioner who has to travel on buses to keep warm, the alternative is death”
“Thank me for those bus passes, one of my great, one of many of my great, policy successes.”
I have a feeling my hideous 23 hour three-flight-connection USA-EU-Asia is about to turn into 36 hours
6th District Republican Primary
Updated 6m ago
6% REPORTED
Candidate Votes
Greg Pence* (incumbent - older brother of Mike Pence)
2,484 75.1%
James Alspach
825 24.9%
Total reported
3,309
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Y-RqkaWJhY
EDIT - Perhaps wire your editor, rent another car, and head for El Lay by way of Omaha?
so here’s some terrible bad news for both Labour and Tory supporters - your parties are entering these elections with the same two flawed old geezers as your leaders. Good Luck 😝
p.s. Johnson and Starmer aren't old, I'd much rather a PM at their ages than Blair/Cameron when they weren't ready
I am puzzled by what you think I actually meant. Your 'More sensibly... ' precedes a rather laboured explanation of the purpose of my whole post, which everyone else seems to have managed to grasp without an issue.
It's like I've said 'Good morning', and you've come in and said 'How horribly gauche - for the more sophisticated amongst us, I have actually noticed that it is the morning, and in addition, I would like to wish you all a 'good' morning.'
Jazmine Ulloa 19m ago
In what appears to be a last ditch attempt to stop a boost of momentum for J.D. Vance, his opponents have been circulating fliers — online and in paper — accusing him of being a Democrat in disguise.
Are you sure JD ain't deed (for tax porpoises)?
Full disclosure - I know one of the 'panelists' on that 'Mock the Week' copy
Edit - Bradley "Bradders" Walsh is only 6 years younger than Jimbo - but about 6 generations of human development...
...sad Bradders isn't a world leader in that
PS Apologies, did not intend to post the image a second time. Don't know how that happened. Certainly not meant to be a message for Leon
https://election.pressassociation.com/locals/provisional-may-election-declaration-times-in-chronological-order/
Primitive Baptist Universalists aka "No Hellers"
excerpt from wiki:
Baptist minister and historian Bill Leonard has characterized PBU beliefs as the result of "press[ing] ... Calvinism to the ... conclusion that Christ's redemption is so powerful that all will be redeemed." According to Leonard, PBUs believe "It's hell enough down here."
Specific tenets of PBU theology include:
> Universal reconciliation: Christ's atonement was for all humanity, and at Resurrection all humanity will be reunited with Christ for an eternity in Heaven.
> Hell is a factor of the temporal world, where temporal sins will be punished by an increased separation from God.
> Satan is an entity solely of the temporal world, existing only as "natural man" warring against "spiritual man."
> Sin, punishment, and death are factors only of the temporal world, thus ceasing to exist after Resurrection, and sin is punished in the temporal world by a separation from God.
> The joy of righteousness is its own reward, so retribution and reward are needed only for the here and now.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primitive_Baptist_Universalist
In Poland the governing conservative Law and Justice party too has kept abortion illegal except for rape or to save the life of the mother
Greetings from a gradually reopening Bali!
Before COVID Bali welcomed around 20,000 international visitors a day. After April 2020 it didn’t get that many in an entire year. International flights are resuming - from 3/day a few weeks ago to ~20/day now with Australia coming back online. Ubud is busy again, Seminyak less so, Canggu still full of broke Russians who can’t get home.
Depending on your destination you may need to make sure any PCR test is still valid.
One in the United States is the extent to which abortion determines a person's vote, in the sense that they would vote for the other party on other issues. Will pro-choice Republicans now vote Democrat? Will pro-life Democrats who were previously voting Republican in order to restrict abortion, now vote Democrat?
And here, might abortion be a Brexit-type issue? One where most people are vaguely content with the status quo, and do not give it a moment's thought from one year to the next, but where that might change if ever they are forced to vote on it because some idiot prime minister calls a referendum in order to buy off a vocal minority on one side or the other.
Updated just now
2% REPORTED
Candidate Votes Pct.
Matt Dolan
4,221 30.5%
J.D. Vance
3,565 25.8%
Josh Mandel
2,665 19.3%
Mike Gibbons
1,903 13.8%
Jane Timken
1,118 8.1%
Mark Pukita
193 1.4%
Neil Patel
175 1.3%
Total reported
13,840
If you don't think that Europe was already a massive issue in this country pre-2016 (and had been since the 1980s if not earlier) then you weren't paying much attention.
Republican Primary
Updated just now
3% REPORTED
Candidate Votes Pct.
J.D. Vance
8,061 26.5%
Matt Dolan
7,564 24.9%
Josh Mandel
6,550 21.6%
Mike Gibbons
4,491 14.8%
Jane Timken
2,782 9.2%
Mark Pukita
556 1.8%
Neil Patel
384 1.3%
Total reported
30,388
Dolan is carrying Marion (Columbus) only big county to report anything yet, also some mid-sized counties; Mandel is taking some rural & small town counties.