Of all the migrants and asylum seekers I spoke to in Calais and Dunkirk, none of them are deterred by Priti Patel’s policy of sending illegal arrivals to Rwanda
Contradicts Sky recent piece filmed in Calais with real refugees declaring they are changing their plans as they do not want to be sent to Rwanda
My point was that those deterred are unlikely to ever find themselves in Calais.
Those interviewed were in Calais and made their fear of going to Rwanda very clear
If they were already in Calais and it deterred them they'd be looking to leave Calais at the time.
They likely wouldn't be in Calais anymore and wouldn't be heading there anymore.
Almost by definition, apart from when the policy is introduced, those who are deterred won't be found but that's because they're deterred.
That will go over Scott's head though.
Twitter is saying there have been no cross Channel boats in the last 4 days
No idea if this is true, or - if it is true - whether it is "Rwanda" doing it
If the plan succeeds then it will be a coup for Patel. The whole idea, of course, is DETERRENCE. You only have to send a few people to Rwanda and there's a good chance the entire trafficking network will collapse. The risk is too great. You spend $10k to get to England and you might end up in Rwanda??
While I understand the idea, four days of data isn't going to be enough to confirm. The Rwanda deportation will actually have to happen to a few migrants, otherwise the rest will quickly get canny to the empty threat.
We'll know after a few years. Politically, a huge evidence-free win for Patel.
It's entirely possible that the announcement has put people off. I would assume, in that case that the boats will start again at some point.
Unless, as others have pointed out, it is the weather.
The policy is designed to stop people crossing from Calais.
Calais is full of people wanting to cross.
They have not been deterred.
This is not complicated
And when Australia took this approach, it stopped right away.....no of course not. Its only when it was clear they were actually going to do this and continue to do it for a very long time.
Now the British scheme seems a total mess, and the government flip flop on everything.
Is it a mess?
The Spectator @spectator · 2h New on the Spectator data hub: no migrants have been detected crossing the Channel in small boats for the past five days.
That was part of the charm of an American road trip, easy to find cheap motel that was decent, cheap dinner for hearty grub, and of course cheap gas to drive 100s of miles.
Until you actually saw the motel room or ate the dinner.
That's not true tho. Often the once-cheap motels are perfectly acceptable. Sometimes they are great. ie they will be in an amazing location just because that's the most convenient place to site the motel. I remember a chain motel in Moab Utah which had astonishing views of the red desert rocks, from every room, and it was about $40 a night
That doesn't seem do-able now
See here. Moab, Utah. Even the mediocre 2 star chain motels are $150 minimum
As for the food, yes, that can be challenging, but less so here in the south where there is soul food everywhere
On top of inflation, I was reading about this the other day. Basically mom and pop motels are been driven out the market, where now the "system" has become individual entrepreneurs own / finance the physical location and a small number of chain brands service them for a significant management fee and cut of the revenue. The chain brand might not be on the front of the door, but they are the ones providing all the staff, the cleaning, etc etc etc. The big brands have been aggressively moving into this business model to ensure they don't have to worry about AirBnB.
It's a damn shame, as it has taken a lot of fun out of the Great American Roadtrip
Time was, you didn't really have to worry about accommodation. You drove the interstate and you pulled over when exhausted, the place would be $50 a night, it would have ice and a fridge, a coffee machine, a vending machine, it would be clean and secure, saddle up next morning and on you go
If you have to WORRY about the next stop - will it be $200? - then that makes everything three times less appealing
The prices for some of these chain motels now are insane. $250 a night for something bleak on a strip mall near Nashville? You can get 4-5 star hotels in beautiful parts of Europe for that
I was going to suggest to Mrs U to relive the old days of doing this later in the summer. I might have to suggest we do it like in student days via camping instead. However, not sure that will go down too well though!
It explains so much of the mess we are in. If you are a homeowner, life has challenges but is still fundamentally fairly peachy. If you aren't, well- good luck.
And any fiddling with tax rates, fuel bills or anything else is tiny in comparison.
Yup because homeowners have been given the homes for free years ago without any savings or sacrifices on their part and anyone who says otherwise is just Tory scum. There you go. Happy now.
I didn't mention Tory Scum, and actually, I'm one of the lucky ones. I got on the housebuying train just before it went stratospheric. In a way that a twenty year younger version of me couldn't have.
But the effect of house prices going up by 20k in three months is positive for some, negative for others, and it does dwarf the other figures we study in minute detail.
And the bottom line is that £20 000 in three months... that more than most doctors, headteachers, solicitors have made. For a box of bricks that you live in. I'm not blaming those of use who benefit from it, but something's not right somewhere, surely?
It's not even positive for very many of us. Sure, my house is worth more money. But if I want to move, the house I want to move to will cost even more. From a personal point of view, I would be far happier if house prices halved - on paper, I would be less wealthy, but the chance of my daughters being able to afford to own a house when they grow up would be much increased.
Also, in re HYUFD's point saying great, Londoners can sell up and move to the country, where does that leave the folk actually living in Cornwall, Richmondshire, etc., with the local property market driven up?
Unless most of London and the Home counties move up North or to Cornwall little different.
That of course will never happen, even if more people are mainly WFH and some have moved out of London for more space
You don't need many people to move to displace the locals, when the ability to buy second homes conferred by high London prices is added, come to think of it.
We are not talking second homes, which only tend to be in the prettiest parts not Wigan, Barnsley or Truro, we are talking first homes.
Plus Londoners would bring with them skills and savings to put into the local economy
Am I trolling here? Perhaps just a little bit, so I apologise. But these crazy cats are trying to take this to court. I’m not sure whether I admire them or think they’re batshit crazy…
I know it probably won’t happen, but what if it did, what if they could get a court to declare that the referendum wasn’t a free and fair election cos of Russian interference? God that would unleash a shitstorm.
I mean, I’m as Remainy as they come but Jesus, I’m not sure I’d want to go through something like that…
Much too late, surely.
Yeah it is, we’re out, it’s done.
But it wouldn’t look good, to say the least. Especially if the government knew and simply ignored it for, well, politics. For their backbenchers. For whatever reason. Not now Russia’s the baddie, unequivocally.
I don’t think it’ll get that far. It’s just interesting to ponder the hypothetical fallout.
I'm not sure telling 17 million voters "you're so stupid you only voted that way because of Russian money" would be very successful, tbh.
The policy is designed to stop people crossing from Calais.
Calais is full of people wanting to cross.
They have not been deterred.
This is not complicated
And when Australia took this approach, it stopped right away.....no of course not. Its only when it was clear they were actually going to do this and continue to do it for a very long time.
Now the British scheme seems a total mess, and the government flip flop on everything.
Is it a mess?
The Spectator @spectator · 2h New on the Spectator data hub: no migrants have been detected crossing the Channel in small boats for the past five days.
Am I trolling here? Perhaps just a little bit, so I apologise. But these crazy cats are trying to take this to court. I’m not sure whether I admire them or think they’re batshit crazy…
I know it probably won’t happen, but what if it did, what if they could get a court to declare that the referendum wasn’t a free and fair election cos of Russian interference? God that would unleash a shitstorm.
I mean, I’m as Remainy as they come but Jesus, I’m not sure I’d want to go through something like that…
If the vote had been compromised by Russia, the only fair course of action would be to rerun the EU Referendum, we are not a Russian autocracy, we are a democracy after all.
Anyway, on topic, if Johnson is deposed, what happens to the wallpaper?
We are a parliamentary democracy not a direct democracy, as the 2016 to 2019 period proved it was only getting a Tory majority in December 2019 that delivered Brexit through Parliament into law in 2020.
The referendum result itself changed nothing legally
You say that now...evidence item 1 m'lud, the prorogation of Parliament.
All the Brexiteers were crying foul. "The sovereign 2017 Parliament is undemocratic because it will not enact the will of the people, who voted (in a non- binding referendum) to leave the EU".
Now I am not blaming you HY, you are, like myself a good honest yeoman serf who voted Remain.
Yes but the prorogation of Parliament made sod all difference. Parliament still refused to vote for Brexit and the Supreme Court ruled it unconstitutional anyway.
Only the Tory majority in December 2019 delivered Brexit as I said
I have been somewhat (OK very) flippant, and technically you are right about Johnson's 2019 manifesto and subsequent Parliamentary landslide being sovereign. It is a tricky conundrum nonetheless if Putin directly and substantively changed the course of British history by chicanery against the real express will of the people.
Am I trolling here? Perhaps just a little bit, so I apologise. But these crazy cats are trying to take this to court. I’m not sure whether I admire them or think they’re batshit crazy…
I know it probably won’t happen, but what if it did, what if they could get a court to declare that the referendum wasn’t a free and fair election cos of Russian interference? God that would unleash a shitstorm.
I mean, I’m as Remainy as they come but Jesus, I’m not sure I’d want to go through something like that…
If the vote had been compromised by Russia, the only fair course of action would be to rerun the EU Referendum, we are not a Russian autocracy, we are a democracy after all.
Anyway, on topic, if Johnson is deposed, what happens to the wallpaper?
We are a parliamentary democracy not a direct democracy, as the 2016 to 2019 period proved it was only getting a Tory majority in December 2019 that delivered Brexit through Parliament into law in 2020.
The referendum result itself changed nothing legally
You say that now...evidence item 1 m'lud, the prorogation of Parliament.
All the Brexiteers were crying foul. "The sovereign 2017 Parliament is undemocratic because it will not enact the will of the people, who voted (in a non- binding referendum) to leave the EU".
Now I am not blaming you HY, you are, like myself a good honest yeoman serf who voted Remain.
Yes but the prorogation of Parliament made sod all difference. Parliament still refused to vote for Brexit and the Supreme Court ruled it unconstitutional anyway.
Only the Tory majority in December 2019 delivered Brexit as I said
The prorogation was still grossly illegal and undemocratic.
"Your Honour, I'm not going to plead guilty to this mugging, I only scored 5p and a Curly-Wurly."
Of course it wasn't. Prorogation was incredibly overdue, and the proposed length of it was so long only because it covered the party conference recess during which nothing would have happened. The Supreme Court might well have ruled it illegal, but their ruling was (to use a technical legal term) horseshit.
Am I trolling here? Perhaps just a little bit, so I apologise. But these crazy cats are trying to take this to court. I’m not sure whether I admire them or think they’re batshit crazy…
I know it probably won’t happen, but what if it did, what if they could get a court to declare that the referendum wasn’t a free and fair election cos of Russian interference? God that would unleash a shitstorm.
I mean, I’m as Remainy as they come but Jesus, I’m not sure I’d want to go through something like that…
Agreed, it would not be a good thing. That said, anyone who continues to believe that Russia did not attempt to influence the vote is a dumbass to put it mildly. The reality though, is that our democratic system was most likely subverted, but we have to live with the result and try and learn from it
The policy is designed to stop people crossing from Calais.
Calais is full of people wanting to cross.
They have not been deterred.
This is not complicated
And when Australia took this approach, it stopped right away.....no of course not. Its only when it was clear they were actually going to do this and continue to do it for a very long time.
Now the British scheme seems a total mess, and the government flip flop on everything.
Is it a mess?
The Spectator @spectator · 2h New on the Spectator data hub: no migrants have been detected crossing the Channel in small boats for the past five days.
Winston County's representative at the January 1861 Alabama Secession Convention was Charles Christopher Sheats, a 21-year-old schoolteacher. He refused to sign Alabama's Ordinance of Secession, even after it had been passed by a vote of 61 to 39. Sheats became so vocal in his opposition that he was eventually arrested. Upon his release, he became a leader of a pro-neutrality group. Later, as a vocal Southern Unionist, he spent much of the war in prison.[4]
A meeting was held at Looney's Tavern, where a series of resolutions was passed. These stated that the people of Winston County had no desire to take part in the war and intended to support neither side. One resolution declared that if a state could secede from the Union, then a county could secede from the state. Richard Payne, a pro-Confederate, laughed with delight. "Winston County secedes!" he shouted. "Hoorah for the 'Free State of Winston'!" From Payne's remark was born the legend of the "Republic of Winston.
In general, people in the southern Appalachians opposed secession -- and many such areas have been voting Republican ever since.
(Alabama is not on my immediate travel list. I want to complete my list of states and have yet to visit Alaska, Hawaii, and Louisiana. After that, I am thinking about visiting Britain for a tour of anti-slavery sites, if such is possible. I'd like to know more about men like Wilberforce, and the places that produced them. And, if they exist, I'd like to see memorials to the sailors in the anti-slavery patrols.)
Am I trolling here? Perhaps just a little bit, so I apologise. But these crazy cats are trying to take this to court. I’m not sure whether I admire them or think they’re batshit crazy…
I know it probably won’t happen, but what if it did, what if they could get a court to declare that the referendum wasn’t a free and fair election cos of Russian interference? God that would unleash a shitstorm.
I mean, I’m as Remainy as they come but Jesus, I’m not sure I’d want to go through something like that…
If the vote had been compromised by Russia, the only fair course of action would be to rerun the EU Referendum, we are not a Russian autocracy, we are a democracy after all.
Anyway, on topic, if Johnson is deposed, what happens to the wallpaper?
It really is ridiculous that some just cannot let go and realise Brexit has happened, rather than encourage the UK and EU to work together for our mutual benefit rather than sow conspiracy theories
It also has to be said the remain camp had all the cards and just lost a campaign they should have won, not helped by Obama telling us to go to the back of the queue
As for the wallpaper there are some very nice quality emulsion paints on the market
Am I trolling here? Perhaps just a little bit, so I apologise. But these crazy cats are trying to take this to court. I’m not sure whether I admire them or think they’re batshit crazy…
I know it probably won’t happen, but what if it did, what if they could get a court to declare that the referendum wasn’t a free and fair election cos of Russian interference? God that would unleash a shitstorm.
I mean, I’m as Remainy as they come but Jesus, I’m not sure I’d want to go through something like that…
Much too late, surely.
Meaningless given 2019 GE, even if the referendum were binding on the parliament, which it wasn't. Edit: HYUFD on this one is totally right about the referendum result changing nothing legally. Though I think a different tune was spun about the weight to be given to it by Tories at the time.
It explains so much of the mess we are in. If you are a homeowner, life has challenges but is still fundamentally fairly peachy. If you aren't, well- good luck.
And any fiddling with tax rates, fuel bills or anything else is tiny in comparison.
Yup because homeowners have been given the homes for free years ago without any savings or sacrifices on their part and anyone who says otherwise is just Tory scum. There you go. Happy now.
One for you to contemplate Felix.
Doesn't alter the fact that when I bought my first home in 1980 I had to find a 10 percent deposit, take out a crippling mortgage and could not afford to carpet it for 2 years - new furniture was another 3 and 5 years more without holidays. So you can take your axes and place them right up the unmentionable!
That was part of the charm of an American road trip, easy to find cheap motel that was decent, cheap dinner for hearty grub, and of course cheap gas to drive 100s of miles.
Until you actually saw the motel room or ate the dinner.
That's not true tho. Often the once-cheap motels are perfectly acceptable. Sometimes they are great. ie they will be in an amazing location just because that's the most convenient place to site the motel. I remember a chain motel in Moab Utah which had astonishing views of the red desert rocks, from every room, and it was about $40 a night
That doesn't seem do-able now
See here. Moab, Utah. Even the mediocre 2 star chain motels are $150 minimum
As for the food, yes, that can be challenging, but less so here in the south where there is soul food everywhere
On top of inflation, I was reading about this the other day. Basically mom and pop motels are been driven out the market, where now the "system" has become individual entrepreneurs own / finance the physical location and a small number of chain brands service them for a significant management fee and cut of the revenue. The chain brand might not be on the front of the door, but they are the ones providing all the staff, the cleaning, etc etc etc. The big brands have been aggressively moving into this business model to ensure they don't have to worry about AirBnB.
It's a damn shame, as it has taken a lot of fun out of the Great American Roadtrip
Time was, you didn't really have to worry about accommodation. You drove the interstate and you pulled over when exhausted, the place would be $50 a night, it would have ice and a fridge, a coffee machine, a vending machine, it would be clean and secure, saddle up next morning and on you go
If you have to WORRY about the next stop - will it be $200? - then that makes everything three times less appealing
The prices for some of these chain motels now are insane. $250 a night for something bleak on a strip mall near Nashville? You can get 4-5 star hotels in beautiful parts of Europe for that
I was going to suggest to Mrs U to relive the old days of doing this later in the summer. I might have to suggest we do it like in student days via camping instead. However, not sure that will go down too well though!
Yes, and we're not imagining it
"Hotel Prices Have Climbed 44%: How to Save on Your Next Vacation"
That was last year, I reckon they could have gone up another 50% or more since
Motel prices might have tripled in 3 years, when you add in all the other stuff you mention
The cheap but brilliant American road trip is no more, at least for now. Quite sad
Am I trolling here? Perhaps just a little bit, so I apologise. But these crazy cats are trying to take this to court. I’m not sure whether I admire them or think they’re batshit crazy…
I know it probably won’t happen, but what if it did, what if they could get a court to declare that the referendum wasn’t a free and fair election cos of Russian interference? God that would unleash a shitstorm.
I mean, I’m as Remainy as they come but Jesus, I’m not sure I’d want to go through something like that…
Agreed, it would not be a good thing. That said, anyone who continues to believe that Russia did not attempt to influence the vote is a dumbass to put it mildly. The reality though, is that our democratic system was most likely subverted, but we have to live with the result and try and learn from it
I'm sure that Putin tried to influence the Brexit referendum result, but very sceptical that it made a ha'pennyworth of difference. Voters are quite capable of being stupid on their own account, without any external assistance. In any case it was much more likely to have been Corbyn and Seumas Milne who tipped the balance.
Am I trolling here? Perhaps just a little bit, so I apologise. But these crazy cats are trying to take this to court. I’m not sure whether I admire them or think they’re batshit crazy…
I know it probably won’t happen, but what if it did, what if they could get a court to declare that the referendum wasn’t a free and fair election cos of Russian interference? God that would unleash a shitstorm.
I mean, I’m as Remainy as they come but Jesus, I’m not sure I’d want to go through something like that…
Much too late, surely.
Yeah it is, we’re out, it’s done.
But it wouldn’t look good, to say the least. Especially if the government knew and simply ignored it for, well, politics. For their backbenchers. For whatever reason. Not now Russia’s the baddie, unequivocally.
I don’t think it’ll get that far. It’s just interesting to ponder the hypothetical fallout.
I'm not sure telling 17 million voters "you're so stupid you only voted that way because of Russian money" would be very successful, tbh.
Well, there is that. I think plenty would be a bit peeved though.
It explains so much of the mess we are in. If you are a homeowner, life has challenges but is still fundamentally fairly peachy. If you aren't, well- good luck.
And any fiddling with tax rates, fuel bills or anything else is tiny in comparison.
Yup because homeowners have been given the homes for free years ago without any savings or sacrifices on their part and anyone who says otherwise is just Tory scum. There you go. Happy now.
I didn't mention Tory Scum, and actually, I'm one of the lucky ones. I got on the housebuying train just before it went stratospheric. In a way that a twenty year younger version of me couldn't have.
But the effect of house prices going up by 20k in three months is positive for some, negative for others, and it does dwarf the other figures we study in minute detail.
And the bottom line is that £20 000 in three months... that more than most doctors, headteachers, solicitors have made. For a box of bricks that you live in. I'm not blaming those of use who benefit from it, but something's not right somewhere, surely?
It's not even positive for very many of us. Sure, my house is worth more money. But if I want to move, the house I want to move to will cost even more. From a personal point of view, I would be far happier if house prices halved - on paper, I would be less wealthy, but the chance of my daughters being able to afford to own a house when they grow up would be much increased.
House prices do go down - in 1990 when I moved to Lewisham I lost 20k on my flat and saved it on the house. When I moved to Spain my house fell from 300k to 250k in 2008 before I sold it at that price.
That was part of the charm of an American road trip, easy to find cheap motel that was decent, cheap dinner for hearty grub, and of course cheap gas to drive 100s of miles.
Until you actually saw the motel room or ate the dinner.
That's not true tho. Often the once-cheap motels are perfectly acceptable. Sometimes they are great. ie they will be in an amazing location just because that's the most convenient place to site the motel. I remember a chain motel in Moab Utah which had astonishing views of the red desert rocks, from every room, and it was about $40 a night
That doesn't seem do-able now
See here. Moab, Utah. Even the mediocre 2 star chain motels are $150 minimum
As for the food, yes, that can be challenging, but less so here in the south where there is soul food everywhere
On top of inflation, I was reading about this the other day. Basically mom and pop motels are been driven out the market, where now the "system" has become individual entrepreneurs own / finance the physical location and a small number of chain brands service them for a significant management fee and cut of the revenue. The chain brand might not be on the front of the door, but they are the ones providing all the staff, the cleaning, etc etc etc. The big brands have been aggressively moving into this business model to ensure they don't have to worry about AirBnB.
It's a damn shame, as it has taken a lot of fun out of the Great American Roadtrip
Time was, you didn't really have to worry about accommodation. You drove the interstate and you pulled over when exhausted, the place would be $50 a night, it would have ice and a fridge, a coffee machine, a vending machine, it would be clean and secure, saddle up next morning and on you go
If you have to WORRY about the next stop - will it be $200? - then that makes everything three times less appealing
The prices for some of these chain motels now are insane. $250 a night for something bleak on a strip mall near Nashville? You can get 4-5 star hotels in beautiful parts of Europe for that
I was going to suggest to Mrs U to relive the old days of doing this later in the summer. I might have to suggest we do it like in student days via camping instead. However, not sure that will go down too well though!
Yes, and we're not imagining it
"Hotel Prices Have Climbed 44%: How to Save on Your Next Vacation"
That was last year, I reckon they could have gone up another 50% or more since
Motel prices might have tripled in 3 years, when you add in all the other stuff you mention
The cheap but brilliant American road trip is no more, at least for now. Quite sad
That’s a shame. If accommodation is so difficult and expensive, it’s going to have to be a Cannonball Run when I’m there next year
Am I trolling here? Perhaps just a little bit, so I apologise. But these crazy cats are trying to take this to court. I’m not sure whether I admire them or think they’re batshit crazy…
I know it probably won’t happen, but what if it did, what if they could get a court to declare that the referendum wasn’t a free and fair election cos of Russian interference? God that would unleash a shitstorm.
I mean, I’m as Remainy as they come but Jesus, I’m not sure I’d want to go through something like that…
Agreed, it would not be a good thing. That said, anyone who continues to believe that Russia did not attempt to influence the vote is a dumbass to put it mildly. The reality though, is that our democratic system was most likely subverted, but we have to live with the result and try and learn from it
I am not sure your final sentence if true, is good enough. It is difficult to see how that particular wrong is best righted, and indeed HYUFD's assertion that none of this matters because of the result of the 2019 GE, but I would argue to an extent that was also sold on a false premise, based on evidence we the voters were unaware of (even if Mrs May was).
Am I trolling here? Perhaps just a little bit, so I apologise. But these crazy cats are trying to take this to court. I’m not sure whether I admire them or think they’re batshit crazy…
I know it probably won’t happen, but what if it did, what if they could get a court to declare that the referendum wasn’t a free and fair election cos of Russian interference? God that would unleash a shitstorm.
I mean, I’m as Remainy as they come but Jesus, I’m not sure I’d want to go through something like that…
If the vote had been compromised by Russia, the only fair course of action would be to rerun the EU Referendum, we are not a Russian autocracy, we are a democracy after all.
Anyway, on topic, if Johnson is deposed, what happens to the wallpaper?
We are a parliamentary democracy not a direct democracy, as the 2016 to 2019 period proved it was only getting a Tory majority in December 2019 that delivered Brexit through Parliament into law in 2020.
The referendum result itself changed nothing legally
You say that now...evidence item 1 m'lud, the prorogation of Parliament.
All the Brexiteers were crying foul. "The sovereign 2017 Parliament is undemocratic because it will not enact the will of the people, who voted (in a non- binding referendum) to leave the EU".
Now I am not blaming you HY, you are, like myself a good honest yeoman serf who voted Remain.
Yes but the prorogation of Parliament made sod all difference. Parliament still refused to vote for Brexit and the Supreme Court ruled it unconstitutional anyway.
Only the Tory majority in December 2019 delivered Brexit as I said
I have been somewhat (OK very) flippant, and technically you are right about Johnson's 2019 manifesto and subsequent Parliamentary landslide being sovereign. It is a tricky conundrum nonetheless if Putin directly and substantively changed the course of British history by chicanery against the real express will of the people.
Lawmaking power in the UK only comes from the will of the people in general elections not referendums in reality.
We have had far too many referendums in recent years, personally I would gladly never see another referendum held in the UK again. Just let the elected House of Commons have the final say on UK law
It explains so much of the mess we are in. If you are a homeowner, life has challenges but is still fundamentally fairly peachy. If you aren't, well- good luck.
And any fiddling with tax rates, fuel bills or anything else is tiny in comparison.
Yup because homeowners have been given the homes for free years ago without any savings or sacrifices on their part and anyone who says otherwise is just Tory scum. There you go. Happy now.
I didn't mention Tory Scum, and actually, I'm one of the lucky ones. I got on the housebuying train just before it went stratospheric. In a way that a twenty year younger version of me couldn't have.
But the effect of house prices going up by 20k in three months is positive for some, negative for others, and it does dwarf the other figures we study in minute detail.
And the bottom line is that £20 000 in three months... that more than most doctors, headteachers, solicitors have made. For a box of bricks that you live in. I'm not blaming those of use who benefit from it, but something's not right somewhere, surely?
It's not even positive for very many of us. Sure, my house is worth more money. But if I want to move, the house I want to move to will cost even more. From a personal point of view, I would be far happier if house prices halved - on paper, I would be less wealthy, but the chance of my daughters being able to afford to own a house when they grow up would be much increased.
Also, in re HYUFD's point saying great, Londoners can sell up and move to the country, where does that leave the folk actually living in Cornwall, Richmondshire, etc., with the local property market driven up?
Unless most of London and the Home counties move up North or to Cornwall little different.
That of course will never happen, even if more people are mainly WFH and some have moved out of London for more space
You don't need many people to move to displace the locals, when the ability to buy second homes conferred by high London prices is added, come to think of it.
We are not talking second homes, which only tend to be in the prettiest parts not Wigan, Barnsley or Truro, we are talking first homes.
Plus Londoners would bring with them skills and savings to put into the local economy
We weren't; we are now, as I noticed it actually strengthens your argument that the Londoners have lots of money to buy up houses.
The policy is designed to stop people crossing from Calais.
Calais is full of people wanting to cross.
They have not been deterred.
This is not complicated
And when Australia took this approach, it stopped right away.....no of course not. Its only when it was clear they were actually going to do this and continue to do it for a very long time.
Now the British scheme seems a total mess, and the government flip flop on everything.
Is it a mess?
The Spectator @spectator · 2h New on the Spectator data hub: no migrants have been detected crossing the Channel in small boats for the past five days.
Am I trolling here? Perhaps just a little bit, so I apologise. But these crazy cats are trying to take this to court. I’m not sure whether I admire them or think they’re batshit crazy…
I know it probably won’t happen, but what if it did, what if they could get a court to declare that the referendum wasn’t a free and fair election cos of Russian interference? God that would unleash a shitstorm.
I mean, I’m as Remainy as they come but Jesus, I’m not sure I’d want to go through something like that…
If the vote had been compromised by Russia, the only fair course of action would be to rerun the EU Referendum, we are not a Russian autocracy, we are a democracy after all.
Anyway, on topic, if Johnson is deposed, what happens to the wallpaper?
Even if there was overwhelming evidence of Russian interference how do you re-run the EU ref when the UK has already left . The problem with any case is how do you quantify the impact of interference and prove that it moved enough votes.
Unless the voting process itself was compromised then you either accept the way people voted or you don't. The debate after the referendum went on for longer than the debate before the referendum and the electorate had at least two further chances to affect the ultimate outcome.
It explains so much of the mess we are in. If you are a homeowner, life has challenges but is still fundamentally fairly peachy. If you aren't, well- good luck.
And any fiddling with tax rates, fuel bills or anything else is tiny in comparison.
Yup because homeowners have been given the homes for free years ago without any savings or sacrifices on their part and anyone who says otherwise is just Tory scum. There you go. Happy now.
I didn't mention Tory Scum, and actually, I'm one of the lucky ones. I got on the housebuying train just before it went stratospheric. In a way that a twenty year younger version of me couldn't have.
But the effect of house prices going up by 20k in three months is positive for some, negative for others, and it does dwarf the other figures we study in minute detail.
And the bottom line is that £20 000 in three months... that more than most doctors, headteachers, solicitors have made. For a box of bricks that you live in. I'm not blaming those of use who benefit from it, but something's not right somewhere, surely?
It's not even positive for very many of us. Sure, my house is worth more money. But if I want to move, the house I want to move to will cost even more. From a personal point of view, I would be far happier if house prices halved - on paper, I would be less wealthy, but the chance of my daughters being able to afford to own a house when they grow up would be much increased.
Also, in re HYUFD's point saying great, Londoners can sell up and move to the country, where does that leave the folk actually living in Cornwall, Richmondshire, etc., with the local property market driven up?
Unless most of London and the Home counties move up North or to Cornwall little different.
That of course will never happen, even if more people are mainly WFH and some have moved out of London for more space
You don't need many people to move to displace the locals, when the ability to buy second homes conferred by high London prices is added, come to think of it.
If, [not going to happen] I returned to live in the UK I'd be content to return to NE England as there I could afford a decent home. I knew once I left London and was on a relatively fixed lower income there would be no return.
Am I trolling here? Perhaps just a little bit, so I apologise. But these crazy cats are trying to take this to court. I’m not sure whether I admire them or think they’re batshit crazy…
I know it probably won’t happen, but what if it did, what if they could get a court to declare that the referendum wasn’t a free and fair election cos of Russian interference? God that would unleash a shitstorm.
I mean, I’m as Remainy as they come but Jesus, I’m not sure I’d want to go through something like that…
If the vote had been compromised by Russia, the only fair course of action would be to rerun the EU Referendum, we are not a Russian autocracy, we are a democracy after all.
Anyway, on topic, if Johnson is deposed, what happens to the wallpaper?
It really is ridiculous that some just cannot let go and realise Brexit has happened, rather than encourage the UK and EU to work together for our mutual benefit rather than sow conspiracy theories
It also has to be said the remain camp had all the cards and just lost a campaign they should have won, not helped by Obama telling us to go to the back of the queue
As for the wallpaper there are some very nice quality emulsion paints on the market
No, no!
Brexit is done, but if it has been done on the illicit whim of Vladimir Putin and not on the express wish of the British people this wrong must be righted, and the only fair way is a rerun of the original vote.
I am sure that Brexit has been such a success that nothing will change, but foreign foes can't be seen to subvert our democracy.
I understand many have been very upset by Brexit, but the only way to improve it is for both sides to grow up and work together to improve the relationship
Never ending leavers and remainers fighting yesterday's battles is plain tedious
Big G's voice on Brexit is quite interesting. There are relatively few prominent voices taking the Big G position - of having voted Remain, but then advocating implementing the result of the referendum in as pragmatic a way as possible and moving on - yet this is the position of pretty much every person of my parents' generation that I have spoken to on the subject. It gives me hope that we can move past the issue (as we seem to have moved past masking - an issue which divided and excited even more than Brexit).
Do we have any Alabama experts on the board today?
I have one day here in the far north west bit. Tuscumbia/Muscle Shoals. By the mighty Tennessee River
I was gonna hike the river or some canyons.... but it's decided to rain. Heavily (the first day of bad weather after a week of pure sun - which returns tomorrow, huzzah)
Things To Do In Alabama When It Rains. Are there any? I thought of driving to Alabama's Most Depressing Town, say Selma, or Bessemer, to indulge in a day of Full on Feasting on American Declinism, but are they that bad? I want BAD. I want Mississippi BAD. Detroit BAD. Shuttered streets, empty factories, fentanyl addicts, desolate malls, maybe a rich Woke student shouting at poor white people about their privilege - in the rain.
Where can I get that?
Quick YouTube (there are channels dedicated to driving the "hood" of these kind of places), Bessemer looks pretty bad. Worst of those kind of places I have been, Gary, Indiana.
Gary, Indiana at one point was the murder capital of the US. You are right, FU, it is a horrible little town on the Southwest corner of Lake Michigan. So depressing. Stopped once on the way from Chicago to Warsaw, Indiana and my hosts were amazed I'd gotten out alive!!!
I know Indiana quite well from the David Soul song Silver Lady. The wind and rain cuts through you, there, and leaves you chilled to the bone. Bleak, as you say. Best to play the song rather than visit. This applies to quite a few places in America, come to think of it. Galverston is another good example. Just play the song and leave it at that.
Went to Galveston once, while touring Texas. Canvey Island with pelicans.
The policy is designed to stop people crossing from Calais.
Calais is full of people wanting to cross.
They have not been deterred.
This is not complicated
And when Australia took this approach, it stopped right away.....no of course not. Its only when it was clear they were actually going to do this and continue to do it for a very long time.
Now the British scheme seems a total mess, and the government flip flop on everything.
Is it a mess?
The Spectator @spectator · 2h New on the Spectator data hub: no migrants have been detected crossing the Channel in small boats for the past five days.
Am I trolling here? Perhaps just a little bit, so I apologise. But these crazy cats are trying to take this to court. I’m not sure whether I admire them or think they’re batshit crazy…
I know it probably won’t happen, but what if it did, what if they could get a court to declare that the referendum wasn’t a free and fair election cos of Russian interference? God that would unleash a shitstorm.
I mean, I’m as Remainy as they come but Jesus, I’m not sure I’d want to go through something like that…
If the vote had been compromised by Russia, the only fair course of action would be to rerun the EU Referendum, we are not a Russian autocracy, we are a democracy after all.
Anyway, on topic, if Johnson is deposed, what happens to the wallpaper?
We are a parliamentary democracy not a direct democracy, as the 2016 to 2019 period proved it was only getting a Tory majority in December 2019 that delivered Brexit through Parliament into law in 2020.
The referendum result itself changed nothing legally
You say that now...evidence item 1 m'lud, the prorogation of Parliament.
All the Brexiteers were crying foul. "The sovereign 2017 Parliament is undemocratic because it will not enact the will of the people, who voted (in a non- binding referendum) to leave the EU".
Now I am not blaming you HY, you are, like myself a good honest yeoman serf who voted Remain.
Yes but the prorogation of Parliament made sod all difference. Parliament still refused to vote for Brexit and the Supreme Court ruled it unconstitutional anyway.
Only the Tory majority in December 2019 delivered Brexit as I said
I have been somewhat (OK very) flippant, and technically you are right about Johnson's 2019 manifesto and subsequent Parliamentary landslide being sovereign. It is a tricky conundrum nonetheless if Putin directly and substantively changed the course of British history by chicanery against the real express will of the people.
Lawmaking power in the UK only comes from the will of the people in general elections not referendums in reality.
We have had far too many referendums in recent years, personally I would gladly never see another referendum held in the UK again. Just let the elected House of Commons have the final say on UK law
Yes but, if the HoC has had it's final say on faulty evidence furnished by an enemy power are you not uncomfortable with that?
I am very disturbed that armed with such incendiary information Mrs May chose to hide the facts.
Am I trolling here? Perhaps just a little bit, so I apologise. But these crazy cats are trying to take this to court. I’m not sure whether I admire them or think they’re batshit crazy…
I know it probably won’t happen, but what if it did, what if they could get a court to declare that the referendum wasn’t a free and fair election cos of Russian interference? God that would unleash a shitstorm.
I mean, I’m as Remainy as they come but Jesus, I’m not sure I’d want to go through something like that…
If the vote had been compromised by Russia, the only fair course of action would be to rerun the EU Referendum, we are not a Russian autocracy, we are a democracy after all.
Anyway, on topic, if Johnson is deposed, what happens to the wallpaper?
It really is ridiculous that some just cannot let go and realise Brexit has happened, rather than encourage the UK and EU to work together for our mutual benefit rather than sow conspiracy theories
It also has to be said the remain camp had all the cards and just lost a campaign they should have won, not helped by Obama telling us to go to the back of the queue
As for the wallpaper there are some very nice quality emulsion paints on the market
No, no!
Brexit is done, but if it has been done on the illicit whim of Vladimir Putin and not on the express wish of the British people this wrong must be righted, and the only fair way is a rerun of the original vote.
I am sure that Brexit has been such a success that nothing will change, but foreign foes can't be seen to subvert our democracy.
I understand many have been very upset by Brexit, but the only way to improve it is for both sides to grow up and work together to improve the relationship
Never ending leavers and remainers fighting yesterday's battles is plain tedious
Big G's voice on Brexit is quite interesting. There are relatively few prominent voices taking the Big G position - of having voted Remain, but then advocating implementing the result of the referendum in as pragmatic a way as possible and moving on - yet this is the position of pretty much every person of my parents' generation that I have spoken to on the subject. It gives me hope that we can move past the issue (as we seem to have moved past masking - an issue which divided and excited even more than Brexit).
Me and my family too. Voted remain, accept the result and move on. Life is way too short.
Am I trolling here? Perhaps just a little bit, so I apologise. But these crazy cats are trying to take this to court. I’m not sure whether I admire them or think they’re batshit crazy…
I know it probably won’t happen, but what if it did, what if they could get a court to declare that the referendum wasn’t a free and fair election cos of Russian interference? God that would unleash a shitstorm.
I mean, I’m as Remainy as they come but Jesus, I’m not sure I’d want to go through something like that…
If the vote had been compromised by Russia, the only fair course of action would be to rerun the EU Referendum, we are not a Russian autocracy, we are a democracy after all.
Anyway, on topic, if Johnson is deposed, what happens to the wallpaper?
It really is ridiculous that some just cannot let go and realise Brexit has happened, rather than encourage the UK and EU to work together for our mutual benefit rather than sow conspiracy theories
It also has to be said the remain camp had all the cards and just lost a campaign they should have won, not helped by Obama telling us to go to the back of the queue
As for the wallpaper there are some very nice quality emulsion paints on the market
No, no!
Brexit is done, but if it has been done on the illicit whim of Vladimir Putin and not on the express wish of the British people this wrong must be righted, and the only fair way is a rerun of the original vote.
I am sure that Brexit has been such a success that nothing will change, but foreign foes can't be seen to subvert our democracy.
I understand many have been very upset by Brexit, but the only way to improve it is for both sides to grow up and work together to improve the relationship
Never ending leavers and remainers fighting yesterday's battles is plain tedious
Big G's voice on Brexit is quite interesting. There are relatively few prominent voices taking the Big G position - of having voted Remain, but then advocating implementing the result of the referendum in as pragmatic a way as possible and moving on - yet this is the position of pretty much every person of my parents' generation that I have spoken to on the subject. It gives me hope that we can move past the issue (as we seem to have moved past masking - an issue which divided and excited even more than Brexit).
The next Labour leader after SKS will have to take that position (and mean it) to win the 2028/2029 general election.
This is SKS's position too I believe... but no one believes it for obvious reasons...
Am I trolling here? Perhaps just a little bit, so I apologise. But these crazy cats are trying to take this to court. I’m not sure whether I admire them or think they’re batshit crazy…
I know it probably won’t happen, but what if it did, what if they could get a court to declare that the referendum wasn’t a free and fair election cos of Russian interference? God that would unleash a shitstorm.
I mean, I’m as Remainy as they come but Jesus, I’m not sure I’d want to go through something like that…
Much too late, surely.
Yeah it is, we’re out, it’s done.
But it wouldn’t look good, to say the least. Especially if the government knew and simply ignored it for, well, politics. For their backbenchers. For whatever reason. Not now Russia’s the baddie, unequivocally.
I don’t think it’ll get that far. It’s just interesting to ponder the hypothetical fallout.
I'm not sure telling 17 million voters "you're so stupid you only voted that way because of Russian money" would be very successful, tbh.
Perhaps, but it isn't quite that simple. Most people are very susceptible to remarketing via social media. Anyone that thinks themselves immune is probably the most suggestible.
Do we have any Alabama experts on the board today?
I have one day here in the far north west bit. Tuscumbia/Muscle Shoals. By the mighty Tennessee River
I was gonna hike the river or some canyons.... but it's decided to rain. Heavily (the first day of bad weather after a week of pure sun - which returns tomorrow, huzzah)
Things To Do In Alabama When It Rains. Are there any? I thought of driving to Alabama's Most Depressing Town, say Selma, or Bessemer, to indulge in a day of Full on Feasting on American Declinism, but are they that bad? I want BAD. I want Mississippi BAD. Detroit BAD. Shuttered streets, empty factories, fentanyl addicts, desolate malls, maybe a rich Woke student shouting at poor white people about their privilege - in the rain.
Where can I get that?
Quick YouTube (there are channels dedicated to driving the "hood" of these kind of places), Bessemer looks pretty bad. Worst of those kind of places I have been, Gary, Indiana.
Gary, Indiana at one point was the murder capital of the US. You are right, FU, it is a horrible little town on the Southwest corner of Lake Michigan. So depressing. Stopped once on the way from Chicago to Warsaw, Indiana and my hosts were amazed I'd gotten out alive!!!
I know Indiana quite well from the David Soul song Silver Lady. The wind and rain cuts through you, there, and leaves you chilled to the bone. Bleak, as you say. Best to play the song rather than visit. This applies to quite a few places in America, come to think of it. Galverston is another good example. Just play the song and leave it at that.
Sorry, K, but you do not know shit about Indiana, which is a VERY diverse state plenty of great places & people from Lake Michigan dunes to the banks of the Ohio River. Or Galveston for that matter.
Am I trolling here? Perhaps just a little bit, so I apologise. But these crazy cats are trying to take this to court. I’m not sure whether I admire them or think they’re batshit crazy…
I know it probably won’t happen, but what if it did, what if they could get a court to declare that the referendum wasn’t a free and fair election cos of Russian interference? God that would unleash a shitstorm.
I mean, I’m as Remainy as they come but Jesus, I’m not sure I’d want to go through something like that…
If the vote had been compromised by Russia, the only fair course of action would be to rerun the EU Referendum, we are not a Russian autocracy, we are a democracy after all.
Anyway, on topic, if Johnson is deposed, what happens to the wallpaper?
It really is ridiculous that some just cannot let go and realise Brexit has happened, rather than encourage the UK and EU to work together for our mutual benefit rather than sow conspiracy theories
It also has to be said the remain camp had all the cards and just lost a campaign they should have won, not helped by Obama telling us to go to the back of the queue
As for the wallpaper there are some very nice quality emulsion paints on the market
No, no!
Brexit is done, but if it has been done on the illicit whim of Vladimir Putin and not on the express wish of the British people this wrong must be righted, and the only fair way is a rerun of the original vote.
I am sure that Brexit has been such a success that nothing will change, but foreign foes can't be seen to subvert our democracy.
I understand many have been very upset by Brexit, but the only way to improve it is for both sides to grow up and work together to improve the relationship
Never ending leavers and remainers fighting yesterday's battles is plain tedious
Big G's voice on Brexit is quite interesting. There are relatively few prominent voices taking the Big G position - of having voted Remain, but then advocating implementing the result of the referendum in as pragmatic a way as possible and moving on - yet this is the position of pretty much every person of my parents' generation that I have spoken to on the subject. It gives me hope that we can move past the issue (as we seem to have moved past masking - an issue which divided and excited even more than Brexit).
Me and my family too. Voted remain, accept the result and move on. Life is way too short.
Agreed, my position too. It won't stop me pointing out it was fucking pointless, and laughing at those that believe in it, but we have to learn to live with it.
Am I trolling here? Perhaps just a little bit, so I apologise. But these crazy cats are trying to take this to court. I’m not sure whether I admire them or think they’re batshit crazy…
I know it probably won’t happen, but what if it did, what if they could get a court to declare that the referendum wasn’t a free and fair election cos of Russian interference? God that would unleash a shitstorm.
I mean, I’m as Remainy as they come but Jesus, I’m not sure I’d want to go through something like that…
If the vote had been compromised by Russia, the only fair course of action would be to rerun the EU Referendum, we are not a Russian autocracy, we are a democracy after all.
Anyway, on topic, if Johnson is deposed, what happens to the wallpaper?
It really is ridiculous that some just cannot let go and realise Brexit has happened, rather than encourage the UK and EU to work together for our mutual benefit rather than sow conspiracy theories
It also has to be said the remain camp had all the cards and just lost a campaign they should have won, not helped by Obama telling us to go to the back of the queue
As for the wallpaper there are some very nice quality emulsion paints on the market
No, no!
Brexit is done, but if it has been done on the illicit whim of Vladimir Putin and not on the express wish of the British people this wrong must be righted, and the only fair way is a rerun of the original vote.
I am sure that Brexit has been such a success that nothing will change, but foreign foes can't be seen to subvert our democracy.
I understand many have been very upset by Brexit, but the only way to improve it is for both sides to grow up and work together to improve the relationship
Never ending leavers and remainers fighting yesterday's battles is plain tedious
Big G's voice on Brexit is quite interesting. There are relatively few prominent voices taking the Big G position - of having voted Remain, but then advocating implementing the result of the referendum in as pragmatic a way as possible and moving on - yet this is the position of pretty much every person of my parents' generation that I have spoken to on the subject. It gives me hope that we can move past the issue (as we seem to have moved past masking - an issue which divided and excited even more than Brexit).
The next Labour leader after SKS will have to take that position (and mean it) to win the 2028/2029 general election.
This is SKS's position too I believe... but no one believes it for obvious reasons...
Maybe he should write two letters to himself in order to make up his mind. That way we couldn't doubt his intentions.
Am I trolling here? Perhaps just a little bit, so I apologise. But these crazy cats are trying to take this to court. I’m not sure whether I admire them or think they’re batshit crazy…
I know it probably won’t happen, but what if it did, what if they could get a court to declare that the referendum wasn’t a free and fair election cos of Russian interference? God that would unleash a shitstorm.
I mean, I’m as Remainy as they come but Jesus, I’m not sure I’d want to go through something like that…
If the vote had been compromised by Russia, the only fair course of action would be to rerun the EU Referendum, we are not a Russian autocracy, we are a democracy after all.
Anyway, on topic, if Johnson is deposed, what happens to the wallpaper?
It really is ridiculous that some just cannot let go and realise Brexit has happened, rather than encourage the UK and EU to work together for our mutual benefit rather than sow conspiracy theories
It also has to be said the remain camp had all the cards and just lost a campaign they should have won, not helped by Obama telling us to go to the back of the queue
As for the wallpaper there are some very nice quality emulsion paints on the market
No, no!
Brexit is done, but if it has been done on the illicit whim of Vladimir Putin and not on the express wish of the British people this wrong must be righted, and the only fair way is a rerun of the original vote.
I am sure that Brexit has been such a success that nothing will change, but foreign foes can't be seen to subvert our democracy.
I understand many have been very upset by Brexit, but the only way to improve it is for both sides to grow up and work together to improve the relationship
Never ending leavers and remainers fighting yesterday's battles is plain tedious
Big G's voice on Brexit is quite interesting. There are relatively few prominent voices taking the Big G position - of having voted Remain, but then advocating implementing the result of the referendum in as pragmatic a way as possible and moving on - yet this is the position of pretty much every person of my parents' generation that I have spoken to on the subject. It gives me hope that we can move past the issue (as we seem to have moved past masking - an issue which divided and excited even more than Brexit).
Yes, but most of them will be Tory voters anyway. Maybe it is just that they don't want to talk about it or admit they're happy with Mr Johnson fronting it (BigG is an exception here). Also the oldies don't have to sort out the mess or deal with it like businesses and farmers andf students and teachers do.
Am I trolling here? Perhaps just a little bit, so I apologise. But these crazy cats are trying to take this to court. I’m not sure whether I admire them or think they’re batshit crazy…
I know it probably won’t happen, but what if it did, what if they could get a court to declare that the referendum wasn’t a free and fair election cos of Russian interference? God that would unleash a shitstorm.
I mean, I’m as Remainy as they come but Jesus, I’m not sure I’d want to go through something like that…
Much too late, surely.
Yeah it is, we’re out, it’s done.
But it wouldn’t look good, to say the least. Especially if the government knew and simply ignored it for, well, politics. For their backbenchers. For whatever reason. Not now Russia’s the baddie, unequivocally.
I don’t think it’ll get that far. It’s just interesting to ponder the hypothetical fallout.
I'm not sure telling 17 million voters "you're so stupid you only voted that way because of Russian money" would be very successful, tbh.
Perhaps, but it isn't quite that simple. Most people are very susceptible to remarketing via social media. Anyone that thinks themselves immune is probably the most suggestible.
Given the amount of pro-Remain rigging that Cameron did, complaining about a bit of Russian money on the other side seems a little churlish.
Am I trolling here? Perhaps just a little bit, so I apologise. But these crazy cats are trying to take this to court. I’m not sure whether I admire them or think they’re batshit crazy…
I know it probably won’t happen, but what if it did, what if they could get a court to declare that the referendum wasn’t a free and fair election cos of Russian interference? God that would unleash a shitstorm.
I mean, I’m as Remainy as they come but Jesus, I’m not sure I’d want to go through something like that…
Agreed, it would not be a good thing. That said, anyone who continues to believe that Russia did not attempt to influence the vote is a dumbass to put it mildly. The reality though, is that our democratic system was most likely subverted, but we have to live with the result and try and learn from it
I am not sure your final sentence if true, is good enough. It is difficult to see how that particular wrong is best righted, and indeed HYUFD's assertion that none of this matters because of the result of the 2019 GE, but I would argue to an extent that was also sold on a false premise, based on evidence we the voters were unaware of (even if Mrs May was).
Yes, but from a pragmatic perspective, what do you do about it?
It explains so much of the mess we are in. If you are a homeowner, life has challenges but is still fundamentally fairly peachy. If you aren't, well- good luck.
And any fiddling with tax rates, fuel bills or anything else is tiny in comparison.
Yup because homeowners have been given the homes for free years ago without any savings or sacrifices on their part and anyone who says otherwise is just Tory scum. There you go. Happy now.
One for you to contemplate Felix.
Doesn't alter the fact that when I bought my first home in 1980 I had to find a 10 percent deposit, take out a crippling mortgage and could not afford to carpet it for 2 years - new furniture was another 3 and 5 years more without holidays. So you can take your axes and place them right up the unmentionable!
So could you have bought in Lewisham today? I doubt it. Looks like you would have to have rented. So no asset growth and no sunny retirement.
You've got yours Felix. Have a little sympathy for those simply born later.
I'm still wondering why MoS thought the Angela Rayner story was a good idea? Anyone?
I'm fairly sure it was planted to help her, and hinder Boris
It's a clever piece of spin, either by anti-Boris-ite Tories, or Rayner's team
No I'm sorry neither the MoS nor the anti-Boris faction are that wily.
This was the latest in a long list of dreadful and hateful tripe from the Mail stable. Once you realise what has come before, you realise that they really did mean it and have probably been surprised at the backlash.
Well done Boris and other Conservatives for condemning it. It demeans us and the whole of politics.
Am I trolling here? Perhaps just a little bit, so I apologise. But these crazy cats are trying to take this to court. I’m not sure whether I admire them or think they’re batshit crazy…
I know it probably won’t happen, but what if it did, what if they could get a court to declare that the referendum wasn’t a free and fair election cos of Russian interference? God that would unleash a shitstorm.
I mean, I’m as Remainy as they come but Jesus, I’m not sure I’d want to go through something like that…
If the vote had been compromised by Russia, the only fair course of action would be to rerun the EU Referendum, we are not a Russian autocracy, we are a democracy after all.
Anyway, on topic, if Johnson is deposed, what happens to the wallpaper?
We are a parliamentary democracy not a direct democracy, as the 2016 to 2019 period proved it was only getting a Tory majority in December 2019 that delivered Brexit through Parliament into law in 2020.
The referendum result itself changed nothing legally
You say that now...evidence item 1 m'lud, the prorogation of Parliament.
All the Brexiteers were crying foul. "The sovereign 2017 Parliament is undemocratic because it will not enact the will of the people, who voted (in a non- binding referendum) to leave the EU".
Now I am not blaming you HY, you are, like myself a good honest yeoman serf who voted Remain.
Yes but the prorogation of Parliament made sod all difference. Parliament still refused to vote for Brexit and the Supreme Court ruled it unconstitutional anyway.
Only the Tory majority in December 2019 delivered Brexit as I said
I have been somewhat (OK very) flippant, and technically you are right about Johnson's 2019 manifesto and subsequent Parliamentary landslide being sovereign. It is a tricky conundrum nonetheless if Putin directly and substantively changed the course of British history by chicanery against the real express will of the people.
Lawmaking power in the UK only comes from the will of the people in general elections not referendums in reality.
We have had far too many referendums in recent years, personally I would gladly never see another referendum held in the UK again. Just let the elected House of Commons have the final say on UK law
Yes but, if the HoC has had it's final say on faulty evidence furnished by an enemy power are you not uncomfortable with that?
I am very disturbed that armed with such incendiary information Mrs May chose to hide the facts.
If you really believe the average Tory voter in 2019 voted for Boris and Brexit because of Russian propoganda rather than as they wanted to regain sovereignty and control immigration, then I expect you also believe Elvis is still around too!
Am I trolling here? Perhaps just a little bit, so I apologise. But these crazy cats are trying to take this to court. I’m not sure whether I admire them or think they’re batshit crazy…
I know it probably won’t happen, but what if it did, what if they could get a court to declare that the referendum wasn’t a free and fair election cos of Russian interference? God that would unleash a shitstorm.
I mean, I’m as Remainy as they come but Jesus, I’m not sure I’d want to go through something like that…
If the vote had been compromised by Russia, the only fair course of action would be to rerun the EU Referendum, we are not a Russian autocracy, we are a democracy after all.
Anyway, on topic, if Johnson is deposed, what happens to the wallpaper?
We are a parliamentary democracy not a direct democracy, as the 2016 to 2019 period proved it was only getting a Tory majority in December 2019 that delivered Brexit through Parliament into law in 2020.
The referendum result itself changed nothing legally
You say that now...evidence item 1 m'lud, the prorogation of Parliament.
All the Brexiteers were crying foul. "The sovereign 2017 Parliament is undemocratic because it will not enact the will of the people, who voted (in a non- binding referendum) to leave the EU".
Now I am not blaming you HY, you are, like myself a good honest yeoman serf who voted Remain.
Yes but the prorogation of Parliament made sod all difference. Parliament still refused to vote for Brexit and the Supreme Court ruled it unconstitutional anyway.
Only the Tory majority in December 2019 delivered Brexit as I said
I have been somewhat (OK very) flippant, and technically you are right about Johnson's 2019 manifesto and subsequent Parliamentary landslide being sovereign. It is a tricky conundrum nonetheless if Putin directly and substantively changed the course of British history by chicanery against the real express will of the people.
Lawmaking power in the UK only comes from the will of the people in general elections not referendums in reality.
We have had far too many referendums in recent years, personally I would gladly never see another referendum held in the UK again. Just let the elected House of Commons have the final say on UK law
Yes but, if the HoC has had it's final say on faulty evidence furnished by an enemy power are you not uncomfortable with that?
I am very disturbed that armed with such incendiary information Mrs May chose to hide the facts.
That’s what I’m getting at. If it becomes unarguable that the govt knew, but did nothing about it. That’s what’ll be incendiary.
Imagine, the party of law and order, of patriotism, knowingly implementing the decision of a referendum tainted by foreign interference. That would be extraordinary, surely, whether you were for or against Brexit.
I'm still wondering why MoS thought the Angela Rayner story was a good idea? Anyone?
I'm fairly sure it was planted to help her, and hinder Boris
It's a clever piece of spin, either by anti-Boris-ite Tories, or Rayner's team
No I'm sorry neither the MoS nor the anti-Boris faction are that wily.
This was the latest in a long list of dreadful and hateful tripe from the Mail stable. Once you realise what has come before, you realise that they really did mean it and have probably been surprised at the backlash.
Well done Boris and other Conservatives for condemning it. It demeans us and the whole of politics.
Absurdly naive
This story only helps Rayner, and only troubles Boris. And that is bloody obvious. So we can see its provenance quite clearly
BTW I don't blame Rayner's team for planting it, if it was them. Politics is a rough business and Boris presents an easy target in this context
Of all the migrants and asylum seekers I spoke to in Calais and Dunkirk, none of them are deterred by Priti Patel’s policy of sending illegal arrivals to Rwanda
Contradicts Sky recent piece filmed in Calais with real refugees declaring they are changing their plans as they do not want to be sent to Rwanda
My point was that those deterred are unlikely to ever find themselves in Calais.
Those interviewed were in Calais and made their fear of going to Rwanda very clear
If they were already in Calais and it deterred them they'd be looking to leave Calais at the time.
They likely wouldn't be in Calais anymore and wouldn't be heading there anymore.
Almost by definition, apart from when the policy is introduced, those who are deterred won't be found but that's because they're deterred.
That will go over Scott's head though.
Twitter is saying there have been no cross Channel boats in the last 4 days
No idea if this is true, or - if it is true - whether it is "Rwanda" doing it
If the plan succeeds then it will be a coup for Patel. The whole idea, of course, is DETERRENCE. You only have to send a few people to Rwanda and there's a good chance the entire trafficking network will collapse. The risk is too great. You spend $10k to get to England and you might end up in Rwanda??
That is correct. The aim is to deter people from making the crossing. The other aspect of this as well is that it makes the smugglers’ model riskier to migrants / less attractive. You can’t offer as a smuggler “even if you get intercepted, you get another chance” if a lot of the men attempting the journey think “I’ll end up in Rwanda.” I suspect that will be the ultimate success of the policy.
An obvious trap for Labour to fall into. If the policy is successful in that it reduces immigration, is Starmer going to pledge to scrap it? Understandably his party members are appalled at the Rwanda gambit so he can hardly ignore it. Tricky one.
Am I trolling here? Perhaps just a little bit, so I apologise. But these crazy cats are trying to take this to court. I’m not sure whether I admire them or think they’re batshit crazy…
I know it probably won’t happen, but what if it did, what if they could get a court to declare that the referendum wasn’t a free and fair election cos of Russian interference? God that would unleash a shitstorm.
I mean, I’m as Remainy as they come but Jesus, I’m not sure I’d want to go through something like that…
If the vote had been compromised by Russia, the only fair course of action would be to rerun the EU Referendum, we are not a Russian autocracy, we are a democracy after all.
Anyway, on topic, if Johnson is deposed, what happens to the wallpaper?
It really is ridiculous that some just cannot let go and realise Brexit has happened, rather than encourage the UK and EU to work together for our mutual benefit rather than sow conspiracy theories
It also has to be said the remain camp had all the cards and just lost a campaign they should have won, not helped by Obama telling us to go to the back of the queue
As for the wallpaper there are some very nice quality emulsion paints on the market
No, no!
Brexit is done, but if it has been done on the illicit whim of Vladimir Putin and not on the express wish of the British people this wrong must be righted, and the only fair way is a rerun of the original vote.
I am sure that Brexit has been such a success that nothing will change, but foreign foes can't be seen to subvert our democracy.
I understand many have been very upset by Brexit, but the only way to improve it is for both sides to grow up and work together to improve the relationship
Never ending leavers and remainers fighting yesterday's battles is plain tedious
Big G's voice on Brexit is quite interesting. There are relatively few prominent voices taking the Big G position - of having voted Remain, but then advocating implementing the result of the referendum in as pragmatic a way as possible and moving on - yet this is the position of pretty much every person of my parents' generation that I have spoken to on the subject. It gives me hope that we can move past the issue (as we seem to have moved past masking - an issue which divided and excited even more than Brexit).
Me and my family too. Voted remain, accept the result and move on. Life is way too short.
I don't know any of my friends who voted Remain who think we should currently be seeking to rejoin. Literally no-one.
Perhaps one day it might come to the fore as a topic but it's hardly the priority of this country right now. A vote was held, a decision taken and now we have to live with the consequences of it.
Quite apart from anything else, why should the EU have us back? And even if they did, we would be back to zero having lost all of our veto and opt-out rights.
Crikey, I'm not going to survive here long if Jeremy Hunt* becomes PM. The Naughtie pronounciation is somehow embedded in my brain whenever I think of him.
*very carefully typed letter by letter with checking afterwards
Do we have any Alabama experts on the board today?
I have one day here in the far north west bit. Tuscumbia/Muscle Shoals. By the mighty Tennessee River
I was gonna hike the river or some canyons.... but it's decided to rain. Heavily (the first day of bad weather after a week of pure sun - which returns tomorrow, huzzah)
Things To Do In Alabama When It Rains. Are there any? I thought of driving to Alabama's Most Depressing Town, say Selma, or Bessemer, to indulge in a day of Full on Feasting on American Declinism, but are they that bad? I want BAD. I want Mississippi BAD. Detroit BAD. Shuttered streets, empty factories, fentanyl addicts, desolate malls, maybe a rich Woke student shouting at poor white people about their privilege - in the rain.
Where can I get that?
Quick YouTube (there are channels dedicated to driving the "hood" of these kind of places), Bessemer looks pretty bad. Worst of those kind of places I have been, Gary, Indiana.
Gary, Indiana at one point was the murder capital of the US. You are right, FU, it is a horrible little town on the Southwest corner of Lake Michigan. So depressing. Stopped once on the way from Chicago to Warsaw, Indiana and my hosts were amazed I'd gotten out alive!!!
I know Indiana quite well from the David Soul song Silver Lady. The wind and rain cuts through you, there, and leaves you chilled to the bone. Bleak, as you say. Best to play the song rather than visit. This applies to quite a few places in America, come to think of it. Galverston is another good example. Just play the song and leave it at that.
Went to Galveston once, while touring Texas. Canvey Island with pelicans.
Haha - interesting song though. My understanding is that it was initially written as an anti-Vietnam war song, but in Glen Campbell's hands - who was, I think, Republican by inclination, and disinclined to play anything which might be perceived as unpatriotic - became something rather more subtle and nuanced.
I also love that a song of such yearning can be written about somewhere so unpreposessing. As someone who still gets a hairs on the back of the neck feeling from this song - even though it was written as a joke - I can fully identify. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yKG8SSSAvPQ
Do we have any Alabama experts on the board today?
I have one day here in the far north west bit. Tuscumbia/Muscle Shoals. By the mighty Tennessee River
I was gonna hike the river or some canyons.... but it's decided to rain. Heavily (the first day of bad weather after a week of pure sun - which returns tomorrow, huzzah)
Things To Do In Alabama When It Rains. Are there any? I thought of driving to Alabama's Most Depressing Town, say Selma, or Bessemer, to indulge in a day of Full on Feasting on American Declinism, but are they that bad? I want BAD. I want Mississippi BAD. Detroit BAD. Shuttered streets, empty factories, fentanyl addicts, desolate malls, maybe a rich Woke student shouting at poor white people about their privilege - in the rain.
Where can I get that?
Quick YouTube (there are channels dedicated to driving the "hood" of these kind of places), Bessemer looks pretty bad. Worst of those kind of places I have been, Gary, Indiana.
Gary, Indiana at one point was the murder capital of the US. You are right, FU, it is a horrible little town on the Southwest corner of Lake Michigan. So depressing. Stopped once on the way from Chicago to Warsaw, Indiana and my hosts were amazed I'd gotten out alive!!!
I know Indiana quite well from the David Soul song Silver Lady. The wind and rain cuts through you, there, and leaves you chilled to the bone. Bleak, as you say. Best to play the song rather than visit. This applies to quite a few places in America, come to think of it. Galverston is another good example. Just play the song and leave it at that.
Went to Galveston once, while touring Texas. Canvey Island with pelicans.
a) complete accidents b) Accidents dew to rushing because they are supplying so much fuel to the Russian army c) False Flag, by Russian state d) sabotage by workers sympathetic to Ukraine e) Sabotage/bomb by Ukrainian special forces f) Missile/helicopter strike by Ukraine.
I think f most likely, but any other thoughts? will we see more of this?
Crikey, I'm not going to survive here long if Jeremy Hunt* becomes PM. The Naughtie pronounciation is somehow embedded in my brain whenever I think of him.
*very carefully typed letter by letter with checking afterwards
Also steer clear of Old Mother Hunt with her flat-cut punt (not a punt cut flat but a flat-cut punt).
a) complete accidents b) Accidents dew to rushing because they are supplying so much fuel to the Russian army c) False Flag, by Russian state d) sabotage by workers sympathetic to Ukraine e) Sabotage/bomb by Ukrainian special forces f) Missile/helicopter strike by Ukraine.
I think f most likely, but any other thoughts? will we see more of this?
Do we have any Alabama experts on the board today?
I have one day here in the far north west bit. Tuscumbia/Muscle Shoals. By the mighty Tennessee River
I was gonna hike the river or some canyons.... but it's decided to rain. Heavily (the first day of bad weather after a week of pure sun - which returns tomorrow, huzzah)
Things To Do In Alabama When It Rains. Are there any? I thought of driving to Alabama's Most Depressing Town, say Selma, or Bessemer, to indulge in a day of Full on Feasting on American Declinism, but are they that bad? I want BAD. I want Mississippi BAD. Detroit BAD. Shuttered streets, empty factories, fentanyl addicts, desolate malls, maybe a rich Woke student shouting at poor white people about their privilege - in the rain.
Where can I get that?
Quick YouTube (there are channels dedicated to driving the "hood" of these kind of places), Bessemer looks pretty bad. Worst of those kind of places I have been, Gary, Indiana.
Gary, Indiana at one point was the murder capital of the US. You are right, FU, it is a horrible little town on the Southwest corner of Lake Michigan. So depressing. Stopped once on the way from Chicago to Warsaw, Indiana and my hosts were amazed I'd gotten out alive!!!
I know Indiana quite well from the David Soul song Silver Lady. The wind and rain cuts through you, there, and leaves you chilled to the bone. Bleak, as you say. Best to play the song rather than visit. This applies to quite a few places in America, come to think of it. Galverston is another good example. Just play the song and leave it at that.
Went to Galveston once, while touring Texas. Canvey Island with pelicans.
That's kind of the point though. The feelings of love we have for our home are emotional, not rational. Even crappy places are (often) loved by those who call them home.
Am I trolling here? Perhaps just a little bit, so I apologise. But these crazy cats are trying to take this to court. I’m not sure whether I admire them or think they’re batshit crazy…
I know it probably won’t happen, but what if it did, what if they could get a court to declare that the referendum wasn’t a free and fair election cos of Russian interference? God that would unleash a shitstorm.
I mean, I’m as Remainy as they come but Jesus, I’m not sure I’d want to go through something like that…
If the vote had been compromised by Russia, the only fair course of action would be to rerun the EU Referendum, we are not a Russian autocracy, we are a democracy after all.
Anyway, on topic, if Johnson is deposed, what happens to the wallpaper?
It really is ridiculous that some just cannot let go and realise Brexit has happened, rather than encourage the UK and EU to work together for our mutual benefit rather than sow conspiracy theories
It also has to be said the remain camp had all the cards and just lost a campaign they should have won, not helped by Obama telling us to go to the back of the queue
As for the wallpaper there are some very nice quality emulsion paints on the market
No, no!
Brexit is done, but if it has been done on the illicit whim of Vladimir Putin and not on the express wish of the British people this wrong must be righted, and the only fair way is a rerun of the original vote.
I am sure that Brexit has been such a success that nothing will change, but foreign foes can't be seen to subvert our democracy.
I understand many have been very upset by Brexit, but the only way to improve it is for both sides to grow up and work together to improve the relationship
Never ending leavers and remainers fighting yesterday's battles is plain tedious
Big G's voice on Brexit is quite interesting. There are relatively few prominent voices taking the Big G position - of having voted Remain, but then advocating implementing the result of the referendum in as pragmatic a way as possible and moving on - yet this is the position of pretty much every person of my parents' generation that I have spoken to on the subject. It gives me hope that we can move past the issue (as we seem to have moved past masking - an issue which divided and excited even more than Brexit).
Me and my family too. Voted remain, accept the result and move on. Life is way too short.
Many people aren't going to go out on the street and be civilly disobedient. But we'll vote for candidates and parties who promise (!) to get closer to Europe, to try and get rid of the ridiculous controls that we've agreed to ..... musicians and theatre people touring, working across borders, for example. Rejoin Erasmus is another one. Some sort of common customs area. And, having supported the idea of European Unity since the 1950's I'm not going to give up now.
JUST IN: Twitter is working to hammer out terms of a transaction and could reach an agreement with Elon Musk as soon as today if negotiations go smoothly, according to a person with knowledge of the matter
Do we have any Alabama experts on the board today?
I have one day here in the far north west bit. Tuscumbia/Muscle Shoals. By the mighty Tennessee River
I was gonna hike the river or some canyons.... but it's decided to rain. Heavily (the first day of bad weather after a week of pure sun - which returns tomorrow, huzzah)
Things To Do In Alabama When It Rains. Are there any? I thought of driving to Alabama's Most Depressing Town, say Selma, or Bessemer, to indulge in a day of Full on Feasting on American Declinism, but are they that bad? I want BAD. I want Mississippi BAD. Detroit BAD. Shuttered streets, empty factories, fentanyl addicts, desolate malls, maybe a rich Woke student shouting at poor white people about their privilege - in the rain.
Where can I get that?
Quick YouTube (there are channels dedicated to driving the "hood" of these kind of places), Bessemer looks pretty bad. Worst of those kind of places I have been, Gary, Indiana.
Gary, Indiana at one point was the murder capital of the US. You are right, FU, it is a horrible little town on the Southwest corner of Lake Michigan. So depressing. Stopped once on the way from Chicago to Warsaw, Indiana and my hosts were amazed I'd gotten out alive!!!
I know Indiana quite well from the David Soul song Silver Lady. The wind and rain cuts through you, there, and leaves you chilled to the bone. Bleak, as you say. Best to play the song rather than visit. This applies to quite a few places in America, come to think of it. Galverston is another good example. Just play the song and leave it at that.
Sorry, K, but you do not know shit about Indiana, which is a VERY diverse state plenty of great places & people from Lake Michigan dunes to the banks of the Ohio River. Or Galveston for that matter.
Ignorance does NOT become you.
Though it DOES fit Leon to a Texas (or Tennessee) T.
By the way, if you or he ever visit the alleged shithole that is Terra Haute, Indiana, check out the Eugene V. Debs House & Museum:
BTW, when you google "Eugene V Debs" first thing that pops up is this:
Eugene V. Debs Former Member of the Indiana State Senate
True enough, but hilarious none the less, considering that EVD also ran for President three times (last time from federal prison) plus many other accomplishments more notable than being a freaking state senator!
Am I trolling here? Perhaps just a little bit, so I apologise. But these crazy cats are trying to take this to court. I’m not sure whether I admire them or think they’re batshit crazy…
I know it probably won’t happen, but what if it did, what if they could get a court to declare that the referendum wasn’t a free and fair election cos of Russian interference? God that would unleash a shitstorm.
I mean, I’m as Remainy as they come but Jesus, I’m not sure I’d want to go through something like that…
Agreed, it would not be a good thing. That said, anyone who continues to believe that Russia did not attempt to influence the vote is a dumbass to put it mildly. The reality though, is that our democratic system was most likely subverted, but we have to live with the result and try and learn from it
I'm sure that Putin tried to influence the Brexit referendum result, but very sceptical that it made a ha'pennyworth of difference. Voters are quite capable of being stupid on their own account, without any external assistance. In any case it was much more likely to have been Corbyn and Seumas Milne who tipped the balance.
If you learned what I have learned over the last couple of years about social media marketing you would not be so convinced that there was no influence. I think the likelihood that it tipped the balance was more likely than unlikely. There was a very high turnout on an issue that failed to inspire interest in a large part of the population only a few years before. The opinion polls moved considerably and the authorities were completely pig ignorant about what was going on.
Here is a simple example of how it works: I, Vladimir, put out an advert that might appeal to folk who might be nationalistic but probably don't vote. It might be a man wearing a union flag waist coat. The caption reads: "it isn't racist to wear the Union Jack". The advertiser then chooses the demographic that might most be motivated by this. It gets lots of "likes" and comments on FB. This then pleases the algorithm that then pushes it out even more. The people that like or share it are remarketed over an over again with targeted messages that make them feel angrier and angrier about "the establishment" and the EU, and they share it and like it etc. etc. and a whole group of statistically significant voters are influenced to vote a particular way. Anyone who thinks Putin did not do this and did not influence the outcome is deluding themself.
Am I trolling here? Perhaps just a little bit, so I apologise. But these crazy cats are trying to take this to court. I’m not sure whether I admire them or think they’re batshit crazy…
I know it probably won’t happen, but what if it did, what if they could get a court to declare that the referendum wasn’t a free and fair election cos of Russian interference? God that would unleash a shitstorm.
I mean, I’m as Remainy as they come but Jesus, I’m not sure I’d want to go through something like that…
If the vote had been compromised by Russia, the only fair course of action would be to rerun the EU Referendum, we are not a Russian autocracy, we are a democracy after all.
Anyway, on topic, if Johnson is deposed, what happens to the wallpaper?
It really is ridiculous that some just cannot let go and realise Brexit has happened, rather than encourage the UK and EU to work together for our mutual benefit rather than sow conspiracy theories
It also has to be said the remain camp had all the cards and just lost a campaign they should have won, not helped by Obama telling us to go to the back of the queue
As for the wallpaper there are some very nice quality emulsion paints on the market
No, no!
Brexit is done, but if it has been done on the illicit whim of Vladimir Putin and not on the express wish of the British people this wrong must be righted, and the only fair way is a rerun of the original vote.
I am sure that Brexit has been such a success that nothing will change, but foreign foes can't be seen to subvert our democracy.
I understand many have been very upset by Brexit, but the only way to improve it is for both sides to grow up and work together to improve the relationship
Never ending leavers and remainers fighting yesterday's battles is plain tedious
Big G's voice on Brexit is quite interesting. There are relatively few prominent voices taking the Big G position - of having voted Remain, but then advocating implementing the result of the referendum in as pragmatic a way as possible and moving on - yet this is the position of pretty much every person of my parents' generation that I have spoken to on the subject. It gives me hope that we can move past the issue (as we seem to have moved past masking - an issue which divided and excited even more than Brexit).
The next Labour leader after SKS will have to take that position (and mean it) to win the 2028/2029 general election.
This is SKS's position too I believe... but no one believes it for obvious reasons...
Maybe he should write two letters to himself in order to make up his mind. That way we couldn't doubt his intentions.
Perhaps the failure of renegotiating with the EU and the most pathetically bad and negative Remain campaign had nothing to do with the outcome?
Do we have any Alabama experts on the board today?
I have one day here in the far north west bit. Tuscumbia/Muscle Shoals. By the mighty Tennessee River
I was gonna hike the river or some canyons.... but it's decided to rain. Heavily (the first day of bad weather after a week of pure sun - which returns tomorrow, huzzah)
Things To Do In Alabama When It Rains. Are there any? I thought of driving to Alabama's Most Depressing Town, say Selma, or Bessemer, to indulge in a day of Full on Feasting on American Declinism, but are they that bad? I want BAD. I want Mississippi BAD. Detroit BAD. Shuttered streets, empty factories, fentanyl addicts, desolate malls, maybe a rich Woke student shouting at poor white people about their privilege - in the rain.
Where can I get that?
Quick YouTube (there are channels dedicated to driving the "hood" of these kind of places), Bessemer looks pretty bad. Worst of those kind of places I have been, Gary, Indiana.
Gary, Indiana at one point was the murder capital of the US. You are right, FU, it is a horrible little town on the Southwest corner of Lake Michigan. So depressing. Stopped once on the way from Chicago to Warsaw, Indiana and my hosts were amazed I'd gotten out alive!!!
I know Indiana quite well from the David Soul song Silver Lady. The wind and rain cuts through you, there, and leaves you chilled to the bone. Bleak, as you say. Best to play the song rather than visit. This applies to quite a few places in America, come to think of it. Galverston is another good example. Just play the song and leave it at that.
Went to Galveston once, while touring Texas. Canvey Island with pelicans.
Haha - interesting song though. My understanding is that it was initially written as an anti-Vietnam war song, but in Glen Campbell's hands - who was, I think, Republican by inclination, and disinclined to play anything which might be perceived as unpatriotic - became something rather more subtle and nuanced.
I also love that a song of such yearning can be written about somewhere so unpreposessing. As someone who still gets a hairs on the back of the neck feeling from this song - even though it was written as a joke - I can fully identify. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yKG8SSSAvPQ
Yes, quite like the song. Hence was disappointed with the real thing. AFAIK no-one's ever written a song about Canvey, although Dr Feelgood came from there.
I'm still wondering why MoS thought the Angela Rayner story was a good idea? Anyone?
I'm fairly sure it was planted to help her, and hinder Boris
It's a clever piece of spin, either by anti-Boris-ite Tories, or Rayner's team
No I'm sorry neither the MoS nor the anti-Boris faction are that wily.
This was the latest in a long list of dreadful and hateful tripe from the Mail stable. Once you realise what has come before, you realise that they really did mean it and have probably been surprised at the backlash.
Well done Boris and other Conservatives for condemning it. It demeans us and the whole of politics.
Absurdly naive
This story only helps Rayner, and only troubles Boris. And that is bloody obvious. So we can see its provenance quite clearly
BTW I don't blame Rayner's team for planting it, if it was them. Politics is a rough business and Boris presents an easy target in this context
Sometimes your compass on political matters is wildly inaccurate.
The story was a cock-up by the MoS and nothing more. They've been getting increasingly vile of late under their new editorial team (united across both Daily Mail and MoS) and thought they could get away with yet another nasty story.
It was nothing more than a massive error of judgement by the Mail. Stop looking for conspiracies under every stone.
As I mentioned a while back, misogynism is rife in the Conservative parliamentary party but I'm really glad to see many of them come out against this. It fills me with hope.
I suspect too that there are the first winds of change starting to blow through the party: that this dive into the moral cesspit cannot continue and that if they are to rebuild they have to do so by showing that they are unlike the current leader. In essence, that they are fundamentally decent people.
JUST IN: Twitter is working to hammer out terms of a transaction and could reach an agreement with Elon Musk as soon as today if negotiations go smoothly, according to a person with knowledge of the matter
LOL, sounds like Musk has won. This could get rather interesting.
Someone commented that he should move the HQ to Texas which is an interesting prospect given the current exodus from California.
Weren't we debating the "alleged" importance of Twitter the other day? With some on here claiming it is a meaningless echo-chamber, of little importance?
Musk is paying $43 BILLION for this meaningless echo chamber, which rather answers that question
Twitter is the most influential social media site on the planet, for politics, journalism, academe, etc
Labour 42% (–) Conservative 34% (–) Liberal Democrat 11% (+1) Green 4% (-1) Scottish National Party 4% (-1) Reform UK 4% (+1) Other 1% (–)
Changes +/- 17 Apr
There comes a time when the polls no longer doing much tells us that what we're looking at is the settled will of the country. That could well be the case here. LAB by 8 feels right and it also feels baked in. I'd be surprised if GE24 deviates by much from this although gun to head I'd predict LAB by 4 or 5 on the day.
Am I trolling here? Perhaps just a little bit, so I apologise. But these crazy cats are trying to take this to court. I’m not sure whether I admire them or think they’re batshit crazy…
I know it probably won’t happen, but what if it did, what if they could get a court to declare that the referendum wasn’t a free and fair election cos of Russian interference? God that would unleash a shitstorm.
I mean, I’m as Remainy as they come but Jesus, I’m not sure I’d want to go through something like that…
Agreed, it would not be a good thing. That said, anyone who continues to believe that Russia did not attempt to influence the vote is a dumbass to put it mildly. The reality though, is that our democratic system was most likely subverted, but we have to live with the result and try and learn from it
I'm sure that Putin tried to influence the Brexit referendum result, but very sceptical that it made a ha'pennyworth of difference. Voters are quite capable of being stupid on their own account, without any external assistance. In any case it was much more likely to have been Corbyn and Seumas Milne who tipped the balance.
If you learned what I have learned over the last couple of years about social media marketing you would not be so convinced that there was no influence. I think the likelihood that it tipped the balance was more likely than unlikely. There was a very high turnout on an issue that failed to inspire interest in a large part of the population only a few years before. The opinion polls moved considerably and the authorities were completely pig ignorant about what was going on.
Here is a simple example of how it works: I, Vladimir, put out an advert that might appeal to folk who might be nationalistic but probably don't vote. It might be a man wearing a union flag waist coat. The caption reads: "it isn't racist to wear the Union Jack". The advertiser then chooses the demographic that might most be motivated by this. It gets lots of "likes" and comments on FB. This then pleases the algorithm that then pushes it out even more. The people that like or share it are remarketed over an over again with targeted messages that make them feel angrier and angrier about "the establishment" and the EU, and they share it and like it etc. etc. and a whole group of statistically significant voters are influenced to vote a particular way. Anyone who thinks Putin did not do this and did not influence the outcome is deluding themself.
But as we understand it, the vote to leave came from the demographic (the over 40s) which uses social media least.
And I saw almost none of this. But I did see a constant social media barrage from the Remain side, little of which would have withstood any scrutiny whatsoever.
Am I trolling here? Perhaps just a little bit, so I apologise. But these crazy cats are trying to take this to court. I’m not sure whether I admire them or think they’re batshit crazy…
I know it probably won’t happen, but what if it did, what if they could get a court to declare that the referendum wasn’t a free and fair election cos of Russian interference? God that would unleash a shitstorm.
I mean, I’m as Remainy as they come but Jesus, I’m not sure I’d want to go through something like that…
If the vote had been compromised by Russia, the only fair course of action would be to rerun the EU Referendum, we are not a Russian autocracy, we are a democracy after all.
Anyway, on topic, if Johnson is deposed, what happens to the wallpaper?
It really is ridiculous that some just cannot let go and realise Brexit has happened, rather than encourage the UK and EU to work together for our mutual benefit rather than sow conspiracy theories
It also has to be said the remain camp had all the cards and just lost a campaign they should have won, not helped by Obama telling us to go to the back of the queue
As for the wallpaper there are some very nice quality emulsion paints on the market
No, no!
Brexit is done, but if it has been done on the illicit whim of Vladimir Putin and not on the express wish of the British people this wrong must be righted, and the only fair way is a rerun of the original vote.
I am sure that Brexit has been such a success that nothing will change, but foreign foes can't be seen to subvert our democracy.
I understand many have been very upset by Brexit, but the only way to improve it is for both sides to grow up and work together to improve the relationship
Never ending leavers and remainers fighting yesterday's battles is plain tedious
Big G's voice on Brexit is quite interesting. There are relatively few prominent voices taking the Big G position - of having voted Remain, but then advocating implementing the result of the referendum in as pragmatic a way as possible and moving on - yet this is the position of pretty much every person of my parents' generation that I have spoken to on the subject. It gives me hope that we can move past the issue (as we seem to have moved past masking - an issue which divided and excited even more than Brexit).
Its pretty much my position too. I had a lot of leave sympathy, but voted with a heavy heart to remain, as I thought ultimately, despite the manifold flaws in the EU, being in was in our best interests. And then having 'lost' I thought we should implement the result of the once in a generation vote, and became more and more frustrated at the attempts to reverse the once in a generation vote. I had multiple disagreements with my very pro-remain car share, even though we both voted the same way. He is of the 'I hope brexit voters suffer' camp, though.
I'm still wondering why MoS thought the Angela Rayner story was a good idea? Anyone?
I'm fairly sure it was planted to help her, and hinder Boris
It's a clever piece of spin, either by anti-Boris-ite Tories, or Rayner's team
No I'm sorry neither the MoS nor the anti-Boris faction are that wily.
This was the latest in a long list of dreadful and hateful tripe from the Mail stable. Once you realise what has come before, you realise that they really did mean it and have probably been surprised at the backlash.
Well done Boris and other Conservatives for condemning it. It demeans us and the whole of politics.
Absurdly naive
This story only helps Rayner, and only troubles Boris. And that is bloody obvious. So we can see its provenance quite clearly
BTW I don't blame Rayner's team for planting it, if it was them. Politics is a rough business and Boris presents an easy target in this context
Sometimes your compass on political matters is wildly inaccurate.
The story was a cock-up by the MoS and nothing more. They've been getting increasingly vile of late under their new editorial team (united across both Daily Mail and MoS) and thought they could get away with yet another nasty story.
It was nothing more than a massive error of judgement by the Mail. Stop looking for conspiracies under every stone.
As I mentioned a while back, misogynism is rife in the Conservative parliamentary party but I'm really glad to see many of them come out against this. It fills me with hope.
I suspect too that there are the first winds of change starting to blow through the party. That this dive into the moral cesspit cannot continue and that if they are to rebuild they have to do so by showing that they are unlike the current leader: that they are fundamentally decent people.
No, you're just wrong
It's a story fed to a credulous MoS by Labour insiders. It's bleedin' obvious
As to whether it was a MoS mistake, hmm. It doesn't make them look good, but it probably got a zillion clicks, so probably a wash
Labour 42% (–) Conservative 34% (–) Liberal Democrat 11% (+1) Green 4% (-1) Scottish National Party 4% (-1) Reform UK 4% (+1) Other 1% (–)
Changes +/- 17 Apr
There comes a time when the polls no longer doing much tells us that what we're looking at is the settled will of the country. That could well be the case here. LAB by 8 feels right and it also feels baked in. I'd be surprised if GE24 deviates by much from this although gun to head I'd predict LAB by 4 or 5 on the day.
Public opinion is not going to stay static for the next 2 years lol!
Am I trolling here? Perhaps just a little bit, so I apologise. But these crazy cats are trying to take this to court. I’m not sure whether I admire them or think they’re batshit crazy…
I know it probably won’t happen, but what if it did, what if they could get a court to declare that the referendum wasn’t a free and fair election cos of Russian interference? God that would unleash a shitstorm.
I mean, I’m as Remainy as they come but Jesus, I’m not sure I’d want to go through something like that…
Much too late, surely.
Yeah it is, we’re out, it’s done.
But it wouldn’t look good, to say the least. Especially if the government knew and simply ignored it for, well, politics. For their backbenchers. For whatever reason. Not now Russia’s the baddie, unequivocally.
I don’t think it’ll get that far. It’s just interesting to ponder the hypothetical fallout.
I'm not sure telling 17 million voters "you're so stupid you only voted that way because of Russian money" would be very successful, tbh.
Perhaps, but it isn't quite that simple. Most people are very susceptible to remarketing via social media. Anyone that thinks themselves immune is probably the most suggestible.
Given the amount of pro-Remain rigging that Cameron did, complaining about a bit of Russian money on the other side seems a little churlish.
Well done for winning this years Dumbest Comment on PB Award. You seriously think we should not be concerned about a hostile state trying to subvert our democratic system? FFS!
Do we have any Alabama experts on the board today?
I have one day here in the far north west bit. Tuscumbia/Muscle Shoals. By the mighty Tennessee River
I was gonna hike the river or some canyons.... but it's decided to rain. Heavily (the first day of bad weather after a week of pure sun - which returns tomorrow, huzzah)
Things To Do In Alabama When It Rains. Are there any? I thought of driving to Alabama's Most Depressing Town, say Selma, or Bessemer, to indulge in a day of Full on Feasting on American Declinism, but are they that bad? I want BAD. I want Mississippi BAD. Detroit BAD. Shuttered streets, empty factories, fentanyl addicts, desolate malls, maybe a rich Woke student shouting at poor white people about their privilege - in the rain.
Where can I get that?
Quick YouTube (there are channels dedicated to driving the "hood" of these kind of places), Bessemer looks pretty bad. Worst of those kind of places I have been, Gary, Indiana.
Gary, Indiana at one point was the murder capital of the US. You are right, FU, it is a horrible little town on the Southwest corner of Lake Michigan. So depressing. Stopped once on the way from Chicago to Warsaw, Indiana and my hosts were amazed I'd gotten out alive!!!
I know Indiana quite well from the David Soul song Silver Lady. The wind and rain cuts through you, there, and leaves you chilled to the bone. Bleak, as you say. Best to play the song rather than visit. This applies to quite a few places in America, come to think of it. Galverston is another good example. Just play the song and leave it at that.
Went to Galveston once, while touring Texas. Canvey Island with pelicans.
Haha - interesting song though. My understanding is that it was initially written as an anti-Vietnam war song, but in Glen Campbell's hands - who was, I think, Republican by inclination, and disinclined to play anything which might be perceived as unpatriotic - became something rather more subtle and nuanced.
I also love that a song of such yearning can be written about somewhere so unpreposessing. As someone who still gets a hairs on the back of the neck feeling from this song - even though it was written as a joke - I can fully identify. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yKG8SSSAvPQ
Don't think Campbell's personal politics had much to do with tinkering with this Jimmy Webb masterpiece, more like corporate sensitivity and desire to maximize record sales to country AND pop audiences.
And the tinkering did NOTHING to lessen the impact of this great anti-war classic.
Am I trolling here? Perhaps just a little bit, so I apologise. But these crazy cats are trying to take this to court. I’m not sure whether I admire them or think they’re batshit crazy…
I know it probably won’t happen, but what if it did, what if they could get a court to declare that the referendum wasn’t a free and fair election cos of Russian interference? God that would unleash a shitstorm.
I mean, I’m as Remainy as they come but Jesus, I’m not sure I’d want to go through something like that…
If the vote had been compromised by Russia, the only fair course of action would be to rerun the EU Referendum, we are not a Russian autocracy, we are a democracy after all.
Anyway, on topic, if Johnson is deposed, what happens to the wallpaper?
It really is ridiculous that some just cannot let go and realise Brexit has happened, rather than encourage the UK and EU to work together for our mutual benefit rather than sow conspiracy theories
It also has to be said the remain camp had all the cards and just lost a campaign they should have won, not helped by Obama telling us to go to the back of the queue
As for the wallpaper there are some very nice quality emulsion paints on the market
No, no!
Brexit is done, but if it has been done on the illicit whim of Vladimir Putin and not on the express wish of the British people this wrong must be righted, and the only fair way is a rerun of the original vote.
I am sure that Brexit has been such a success that nothing will change, but foreign foes can't be seen to subvert our democracy.
I understand many have been very upset by Brexit, but the only way to improve it is for both sides to grow up and work together to improve the relationship
Never ending leavers and remainers fighting yesterday's battles is plain tedious
Big G's voice on Brexit is quite interesting. There are relatively few prominent voices taking the Big G position - of having voted Remain, but then advocating implementing the result of the referendum in as pragmatic a way as possible and moving on - yet this is the position of pretty much every person of my parents' generation that I have spoken to on the subject. It gives me hope that we can move past the issue (as we seem to have moved past masking - an issue which divided and excited even more than Brexit).
Its pretty much my position too. I had a lot of leave sympathy, but voted with a heavy heart to remain, as I thought ultimately, despite the manifold flaws in the EU, being in was in our best interests. And then having 'lost' I thought we should implement the result of the once in a generation vote, and became more and more frustrated at the attempts to reverse the once in a generation vote. I had multiple disagreements with my very pro-remain car share, even though we both voted the same way. He is of the 'I hope brexit voters suffer' camp, though.
I wanted to Remain but felt we should have voted through Theresa May's deal. I still think this was the best all-round compromise to the various mutually incompatible dimensions and which would have left us with a good trade partnership in the EU.
"Pour boiling water on a crust of bread; pour the water off and it is ready; season with salt and pepper. Serve in a breakfast cup and eat with a spoon"
"Good Things in England", Florence White, 1932
Bread and water. Just deserts for voting Tory.
Sounds like luxury compared to Scottish Indy desserts.
Scots after-tea reward for voting ‘No’ is Boris Johnson.
Am I trolling here? Perhaps just a little bit, so I apologise. But these crazy cats are trying to take this to court. I’m not sure whether I admire them or think they’re batshit crazy…
I know it probably won’t happen, but what if it did, what if they could get a court to declare that the referendum wasn’t a free and fair election cos of Russian interference? God that would unleash a shitstorm.
I mean, I’m as Remainy as they come but Jesus, I’m not sure I’d want to go through something like that…
Agreed, it would not be a good thing. That said, anyone who continues to believe that Russia did not attempt to influence the vote is a dumbass to put it mildly. The reality though, is that our democratic system was most likely subverted, but we have to live with the result and try and learn from it
I'm sure that Putin tried to influence the Brexit referendum result, but very sceptical that it made a ha'pennyworth of difference. Voters are quite capable of being stupid on their own account, without any external assistance. In any case it was much more likely to have been Corbyn and Seumas Milne who tipped the balance.
If you learned what I have learned over the last couple of years about social media marketing you would not be so convinced that there was no influence. I think the likelihood that it tipped the balance was more likely than unlikely. There was a very high turnout on an issue that failed to inspire interest in a large part of the population only a few years before. The opinion polls moved considerably and the authorities were completely pig ignorant about what was going on.
Here is a simple example of how it works: I, Vladimir, put out an advert that might appeal to folk who might be nationalistic but probably don't vote. It might be a man wearing a union flag waist coat. The caption reads: "it isn't racist to wear the Union Jack". The advertiser then chooses the demographic that might most be motivated by this. It gets lots of "likes" and comments on FB. This then pleases the algorithm that then pushes it out even more. The people that like or share it are remarketed over an over again with targeted messages that make them feel angrier and angrier about "the establishment" and the EU, and they share it and like it etc. etc. and a whole group of statistically significant voters are influenced to vote a particular way. Anyone who thinks Putin did not do this and did not influence the outcome is deluding themself.
But as we understand it, the vote to leave came from the demographic (the over 40s) which uses social media least.
And I saw almost none of this. But I did see a constant social media barrage from the Remain side, little of which would have withstood any scrutiny whatsoever.
And don't forget that, amoungst other things, the Remain side got a £9m advertising spend that was denied to the Leave side.
Labour 42% (–) Conservative 34% (–) Liberal Democrat 11% (+1) Green 4% (-1) Scottish National Party 4% (-1) Reform UK 4% (+1) Other 1% (–)
Changes +/- 17 Apr
There comes a time when the polls no longer doing much tells us that what we're looking at is the settled will of the country. That could well be the case here. LAB by 8 feels right and it also feels baked in. I'd be surprised if GE24 deviates by much from this although gun to head I'd predict LAB by 4 or 5 on the day.
I agree. I have this sense that even a GE campaign won't shift things. I've not heard so many people talking about time for change since, well, 1997.
Am I trolling here? Perhaps just a little bit, so I apologise. But these crazy cats are trying to take this to court. I’m not sure whether I admire them or think they’re batshit crazy…
I know it probably won’t happen, but what if it did, what if they could get a court to declare that the referendum wasn’t a free and fair election cos of Russian interference? God that would unleash a shitstorm.
I mean, I’m as Remainy as they come but Jesus, I’m not sure I’d want to go through something like that…
Much too late, surely.
Yeah it is, we’re out, it’s done.
But it wouldn’t look good, to say the least. Especially if the government knew and simply ignored it for, well, politics. For their backbenchers. For whatever reason. Not now Russia’s the baddie, unequivocally.
I don’t think it’ll get that far. It’s just interesting to ponder the hypothetical fallout.
I'm not sure telling 17 million voters "you're so stupid you only voted that way because of Russian money" would be very successful, tbh.
Perhaps, but it isn't quite that simple. Most people are very susceptible to remarketing via social media. Anyone that thinks themselves immune is probably the most suggestible.
Given the amount of pro-Remain rigging that Cameron did, complaining about a bit of Russian money on the other side seems a little churlish.
Well done for winning this years Dumbest Comment on PB Award. You seriously think we should not be concerned about a hostile state trying to subvert our democratic system? FFS!
What does Putin want with that? He wants to divide us internally. Why are you playing his game?
Of all the migrants and asylum seekers I spoke to in Calais and Dunkirk, none of them are deterred by Priti Patel’s policy of sending illegal arrivals to Rwanda
Contradicts Sky recent piece filmed in Calais with real refugees declaring they are changing their plans as they do not want to be sent to Rwanda
My point was that those deterred are unlikely to ever find themselves in Calais.
Those interviewed were in Calais and made their fear of going to Rwanda very clear
If they were already in Calais and it deterred them they'd be looking to leave Calais at the time.
They likely wouldn't be in Calais anymore and wouldn't be heading there anymore.
Almost by definition, apart from when the policy is introduced, those who are deterred won't be found but that's because they're deterred.
That will go over Scott's head though.
It'll go over everyone's head who has a brain in it. I thought you'd undergone a cleansing since your Lazarus moment when you discovered your idol had feet of clay?
"Pour boiling water on a crust of bread; pour the water off and it is ready; season with salt and pepper. Serve in a breakfast cup and eat with a spoon"
"Good Things in England", Florence White, 1932
Bread and water. Just deserts for voting Tory.
Sounds like luxury compared to Scottish Indy desserts.
Scots after-tea reward for voting ‘No’ is Boris Johnson.
The policy is designed to stop people crossing from Calais.
Calais is full of people wanting to cross.
They have not been deterred.
This is not complicated
And when Australia took this approach, it stopped right away.....no of course not. Its only when it was clear they were actually going to do this and continue to do it for a very long time.
Now the British scheme seems a total mess, and the government flip flop on everything.
Is it a mess?
The Spectator @spectator · 2h New on the Spectator data hub: no migrants have been detected crossing the Channel in small boats for the past five days.
Labour 42% (–) Conservative 34% (–) Liberal Democrat 11% (+1) Green 4% (-1) Scottish National Party 4% (-1) Reform UK 4% (+1) Other 1% (–)
Changes +/- 17 Apr
There comes a time when the polls no longer doing much tells us that what we're looking at is the settled will of the country. That could well be the case here. LAB by 8 feels right and it also feels baked in. I'd be surprised if GE24 deviates by much from this although gun to head I'd predict LAB by 4 or 5 on the day.
I really didn't think that, after nearly six years, there was anything new to be said about the Brexit referendum, Russian interference, respecting the vote, and so on.
Labour 42% (–) Conservative 34% (–) Liberal Democrat 11% (+1) Green 4% (-1) Scottish National Party 4% (-1) Reform UK 4% (+1) Other 1% (–)
Changes +/- 17 Apr
There comes a time when the polls no longer doing much tells us that what we're looking at is the settled will of the country. That could well be the case here. LAB by 8 feels right and it also feels baked in. I'd be surprised if GE24 deviates by much from this although gun to head I'd predict LAB by 4 or 5 on the day.
I agree. I have this sense that even a GE campaign won't shift things. I've not heard so many people talking about time for change since, well, 1997.
Possibly, but there may be two years of titanic political end economic turbulence, a probable change of PM and then big cabinet shakeup between now and the GE.
I'm still wondering why MoS thought the Angela Rayner story was a good idea? Anyone?
I'm fairly sure it was planted to help her, and hinder Boris
It's a clever piece of spin, either by anti-Boris-ite Tories, or Rayner's team
No I'm sorry neither the MoS nor the anti-Boris faction are that wily.
This was the latest in a long list of dreadful and hateful tripe from the Mail stable. Once you realise what has come before, you realise that they really did mean it and have probably been surprised at the backlash.
Well done Boris and other Conservatives for condemning it. It demeans us and the whole of politics.
Absurdly naive
This story only helps Rayner, and only troubles Boris. And that is bloody obvious. So we can see its provenance quite clearly
BTW I don't blame Rayner's team for planting it, if it was them. Politics is a rough business and Boris presents an easy target in this context
Sometimes your compass on political matters is wildly inaccurate.
The story was a cock-up by the MoS and nothing more. They've been getting increasingly vile of late under their new editorial team (united across both Daily Mail and MoS) and thought they could get away with yet another nasty story.
It was nothing more than a massive error of judgement by the Mail. Stop looking for conspiracies under every stone.
As I mentioned a while back, misogynism is rife in the Conservative parliamentary party but I'm really glad to see many of them come out against this. It fills me with hope.
I suspect too that there are the first winds of change starting to blow through the party. That this dive into the moral cesspit cannot continue and that if they are to rebuild they have to do so by showing that they are unlike the current leader: that they are fundamentally decent people.
No, you're just wrong
It's a story fed to a credulous MoS by Labour insiders. It's bleedin' obvious
Sorry Leon but you are simply wrong. You are looking at 2 plus 2 and making 57.
I'm afraid it really IS a case of a misogynistic old boy in the tory party feeding a story which the MoS thought was a great one to run. Totally in keeping with a stream of other stories.
As I mentioned there really ARE some misogynists of this ilk on the tory backbenches.
I’m still at Girona airport. They dragged us off the plane due to a piece of paper in the engine, and the need for an engineer from Barcelona to remove it. They sent us a €4 token for non alcoholic drinks or food. It cost me that to buy a dry sandwich and half a packet of crisps, and more than that for a drink to wash it down with.
I’m 254th in the queue to chat with Ryanair online so I’ve playing big chess with random kids
The projected national shares at the local elections 4 years ago were Con 35%, Lab 35%, LD 16%. The Conservatives are not expected to get less than 35% this time, although Labour could be slightly higher.
Labour only led by 38% to 31% in the NEV in 2012 and the Tories are in a far better position in the West Midlands and Scotland now where they are likely to hold up reasonably well IMO even if they do very badly in the Northern Mets vote wise.
Therefore I'd probably predict something like Lab 35% Con 33% LD 16%. Greens could also do well on the upside.
Admittedly I now think the LDs could be higher (despite the lack of favourable areas up) as they might now smash it out of the park in southern councils like Somerset, Woking, S Cambs and St Albans and do well as a protest vote on northern councils like Sunderland, Liverpool and Sheffield.
- “ … in 2012 and the Tories are in a far better position in… Scotland now…”
Huh?
Scottish Tories polling in the teens* is surely about the same as 2012?
(*last three Scottish Westminster VI polls, full-sample, SCon VI: 17%, 19%, 19%)
Comments
Unless, as others have pointed out, it is the weather.
Plus Londoners would bring with them skills and savings to put into the local economy
Wiki tells us we knew of 26 letters at the time it was announced the 48 letter threshold was reached.
since I am fascinated by the American Civil War. In general, people in the southern Appalachians opposed secession -- and many such areas have been voting Republican ever since.
(Alabama is not on my immediate travel list. I want to complete my list of states and have yet to visit Alaska, Hawaii, and Louisiana. After that, I am thinking about visiting Britain for a tour of anti-slavery sites, if such is possible. I'd like to know more about men like Wilberforce, and the places that produced them. And, if they exist, I'd like to see memorials to the sailors in the anti-slavery patrols.)
They admit that their original case to sue the EU wrt EU Citizenship will turn into a pumpkin on Apr 24th ie today https://www.crowdfunder.co.uk/p/eu-citizenship-is-a-permanent-status
And suddenly this new gambit appears 2 days beforehand.
Hmmm.
Are they angling for some of Jolyon's spare spondulicks?
"Hotel Prices Have Climbed 44%: How to Save on Your Next Vacation"
That was last year, I reckon they could have gone up another 50% or more since
Motel prices might have tripled in 3 years, when you add in all the other stuff you mention
The cheap but brilliant American road trip is no more, at least for now. Quite sad
We have had far too many referendums in recent years, personally I would gladly never see another referendum held in the UK again. Just let the elected House of Commons have the final say on UK law
Westminster Voting Intention (24 Apr):
Labour 42% (–)
Conservative 34% (–)
Liberal Democrat 11% (+1)
Green 4% (-1)
Scottish National Party 4% (-1)
Reform UK 4% (+1)
Other 1% (–)
Changes +/- 17 Apr
I am very disturbed that armed with such incendiary information Mrs May chose to hide the facts.
This is SKS's position too I believe... but no one believes it for obvious reasons...
It's a clever piece of spin, either by anti-Boris-ite Tories, or Rayner's team
Ignorance does NOT become you.
You've got yours Felix. Have a little sympathy for those simply born later.
This was the latest in a long list of dreadful and hateful tripe from the Mail stable. Once you realise what has come before, you realise that they really did mean it and have probably been surprised at the backlash.
Well done Boris and other Conservatives for condemning it. It demeans us and the whole of politics.
Imagine, the party of law and order, of patriotism, knowingly implementing the decision of a referendum tainted by foreign interference. That would be extraordinary, surely, whether you were for or against Brexit.
This story only helps Rayner, and only troubles Boris. And that is bloody obvious. So we can see its provenance quite clearly
BTW I don't blame Rayner's team for planting it, if it was them. Politics is a rough business and Boris presents an easy target in this context
Perhaps one day it might come to the fore as a topic but it's hardly the priority of this country right now. A vote was held, a decision taken and now we have to live with the consequences of it.
Quite apart from anything else, why should the EU have us back? And even if they did, we would be back to zero having lost all of our veto and opt-out rights.
*very carefully typed letter by letter with checking afterwards
https://twitter.com/holbornlolz/status/1518609387333554176?s=21&t=SQcDfCxyDZ3MK0A6r5kj5Q
I also love that a song of such yearning can be written about somewhere so unpreposessing. As someone who still gets a hairs on the back of the neck feeling from this song - even though it was written as a joke - I can fully identify. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yKG8SSSAvPQ
One of my Guilty Pleasures though -
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HhKZLhxFFUY
https://twitter.com/TWMCLtd/status/1518390835519311874?ref_src=twsrc^tfw|twcamp^tweetembed|twterm^1518390835519311874|twgr^|twcon^s1_c10&ref_url=https://hotair.com/allahpundit/2022/04/25/a-mysterious-explosion-in-bryansk-n464687
As I see it possibilities include:
a) complete accidents
b) Accidents dew to rushing because they are supplying so much fuel to the Russian army
c) False Flag, by Russian state
d) sabotage by workers sympathetic to Ukraine
e) Sabotage/bomb by Ukrainian special forces
f) Missile/helicopter strike by Ukraine.
I think f most likely, but any other thoughts? will we see more of this?
https://twitter.com/AggregateOsint/status/1518589834830352384
And, having supported the idea of European Unity since the 1950's I'm not going to give up now.
By the way, if you or he ever visit the alleged shithole that is Terra Haute, Indiana, check out the Eugene V. Debs House & Museum:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eugene_V._Debs_Home
BTW, when you google "Eugene V Debs" first thing that pops up is this:
Eugene V. Debs
Former Member of the Indiana State Senate
True enough, but hilarious none the less, considering that EVD also ran for President three times (last time from federal prison) plus many other accomplishments more notable than being a freaking state senator!
Here is a simple example of how it works: I, Vladimir, put out an advert that might appeal to folk who might be nationalistic but probably don't vote. It might be a man wearing a union flag waist coat. The caption reads: "it isn't racist to wear the Union Jack". The advertiser then chooses the demographic that might most be motivated by this. It gets lots of "likes" and comments on FB. This then pleases the algorithm that then pushes it out even more. The people that like or share it are remarketed over an over again with targeted messages that make them feel angrier and angrier about "the establishment" and the EU, and they share it and like it etc. etc. and a whole group of statistically significant voters are influenced to vote a particular way. Anyone who thinks Putin did not do this and did not influence the outcome is deluding themself.
AFAIK no-one's ever written a song about Canvey, although Dr Feelgood came from there.
The story was a cock-up by the MoS and nothing more. They've been getting increasingly vile of late under their new editorial team (united across both Daily Mail and MoS) and thought they could get away with yet another nasty story.
It was nothing more than a massive error of judgement by the Mail. Stop looking for conspiracies under every stone.
As I mentioned a while back, misogynism is rife in the Conservative parliamentary party but I'm really glad to see many of them come out against this. It fills me with hope.
I suspect too that there are the first winds of change starting to blow through the party: that this dive into the moral cesspit cannot continue and that if they are to rebuild they have to do so by showing that they are unlike the current leader. In essence, that they are fundamentally decent people.
Musk is paying $43 BILLION for this meaningless echo chamber, which rather answers that question
Twitter is the most influential social media site on the planet, for politics, journalism, academe, etc
And I saw almost none of this. But I did see a constant social media barrage from the Remain side, little of which would have withstood any scrutiny whatsoever.
It's a story fed to a credulous MoS by Labour insiders. It's bleedin' obvious
As to whether it was a MoS mistake, hmm. It doesn't make them look good, but it probably got a zillion clicks, so probably a wash
And the tinkering did NOTHING to lessen the impact of this great anti-war classic.
https://www.wideopencountry.com/galveston-glen-campbell/
What is done is done. For now.
AND also sample the local seafood!
It looks like you're the same old soullessTory.
And I was right.
I'm afraid it really IS a case of a misogynistic old boy in the tory party feeding a story which the MoS thought was a great one to run. Totally in keeping with a stream of other stories.
As I mentioned there really ARE some misogynists of this ilk on the tory backbenches.
I’m 254th in the queue to chat with Ryanair online so I’ve playing big chess with random kids
Huh?
Scottish Tories polling in the teens* is surely about the same as 2012?
(*last three Scottish Westminster VI polls, full-sample, SCon VI: 17%, 19%, 19%)