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Not the sharpest tool in the Tory box – politicalbetting.com

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    SKS Approval Rating is a massive drag on Labour

    Redfield & Wilton Strategies
    @RedfieldWilton
    ·
    16h
    Keir Starmer Approval Rating (10 Apr):

    Approve: 27% (-4)
    Disapprove: 32% (+1)
    Net: -5% (-5)

    Changes +/- 3 Apr

    -5 is a massive drag?

    BJO you need to lie down mate
    By definition any "minus" is a "drag". Surely.
    A drag, not a "massive drag".

    Starmer is the least drag on Labour in years.

    BJO is only doing this because he's comparing the two month honeymoon of Corbyn before he fell off a cliff.
  • Options
    theProletheProle Posts: 948
    darkage said:

    Khan has been completely ruined by this conviction, it is very bad. If you want to know the hell that people convicted of child sex offences go through, then look at some of the discussions on 'unlock'. Their lives are barely worth living. This state of affairs is certainly not civilisation marching forward to a state of enlightenment.

    Presuming that the jury got it right, and he did what I was accused of, I can't say I'm terribly sympathetic. Can't do the time, don't do the crime...
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,800
    darkage said:

    Khan has been completely ruined by this conviction, it is very bad. If you want to know the hell that people convicted of child sex offences go through, then look at some of the discussions on 'unlock'. Their lives are barely worth living. This state of affairs is certainly not civilisation marching forward to a state of enlightenment.

    Progress comes slowly, and is very much a case of two steps forward, one step back.

    The fact that people like Khan do face prosecution and ruin is a big improvement on where we were 25 years ago, when sexual offences against minors were likely to be covered up.
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,095

    Stocky said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    eek said:

    There are of course two issues here - is Blunt entitled to express his opinion, and is it sensible? The answer to the first is surely yes, and as I said yesterday I give him some credit for expressing it when it was obviously politically unwise. The answer to the second looks a solid no, for the reasons that Cyclefree sets out with her usual cogency.

    Should the Conservative Party take action against him? It depends whether his "clarification" expected today makes clear that he is not trivialising statutory rape of a child by a much older man (I believe that the police usually look the other way when a 16-year-old sleeps with a 15-year-old). If he were to confirm that he meant that it's no big deal, then I think he has no place in a serious party. If he clarifies that the offence is extremely serious and he is merely expressing incredulity that his friend was guilty of it, then I think that's not a political issue but a matter of judgment, and if MPs were thrown out of their parties for mistakes of judgment then, well...

    It's more than a matter of judgment - it's a fundamental attack on our Jury system - totally ignoring the (horrendous) crime an MP shouldn't be calling the decision of a Jury into doubt because he doesn't like the end result.

    And while he said he attended some of the case - as he didn't attend all of it he really isn't in a position to pass comment on the bits he didn't hear.
    Jurors are on average corruptible intimidatable and dim, and I don't think there is any duty on anybody not to attack the system in general, or isolated errors in particular. They happen. Not that I think there was one in this case, but someone claiming there was is not something to bloviate unduly about
    It must be terrifying to be innocent and have your future and reputation (and safety) in the hands of jurors. I'm not saying this MP guy is innocent - I've not followed the case and don't know the specifics of what he is charged with. But as I understand it the police (and CPS) proceed with a case on the basis that there is a decent chance of conviction. This means that actual evidence is secondary.

    I'm sure there are cases (maybe not this one) where the police and CPS think that a jury may convict because of the type of offence (believe the accuser) with no other evidence whatsoever (again - I'm not referring to this case) because they think that a jury will act out of prejudice given the nature of the charge and the notoriety of the accused.

    This is worrying if true. Maybe it isn't.
    I don't think you're right. The CPS do decide whether to prosecute on the basis of whether there is a decent chance of conviction, yes. But that depends on the quality of the evidence, so when you say the actual evidence is secondary, that's wrong.
    And on your last point, if there is no solid evidence the judge will direct the jury to acquit, regardless of any prejudice they hold.
    Have a look at the Roger Kearney murder conviction. The CPS decided to prosecute on no evidence other than he was having an affair with the murder victim and he was found guilty. He cannot appeal his conviction as there is no prosecution evidence to appeal against. His wife even gave him a full alibi for the night of the murder, yet he has spent the last 12 years in Prison. There are dozens of similar murder convictions based on no or very little evidence.

    https://www.dailyecho.co.uk/news/8202808.lawyer-gives-jury-a-list-detailing-why-they-have-to-find-kearney-not-guilty/

    The police are often just after a conviction, they are not particularly worried about whether the person is guilty or not
    If you ever wondered where Constable Savage ended up after the SPG.

    "He's a wrong 'un, Sir..."
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    FishingFishing Posts: 4,561

    When Blunt has a pop at the criminal justice system by effectively saying "My friend isn't a wrong 'un, the system has got this wrong", it is worth bearing in mind that he does have the inside track: from May 2010 to September 2012 he was the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Prisons and Youth Justice.

    So if the system is broken, Crispin - who should we blame? You must know.

    I suspect the voters of Reigate will have a different choice of Conservative candidate by 2024.

    Under-Secretary of State for Prisons and Youth Justice reads like a very important role.
    Heathener said:

    1st.

    This is all so reminiscent of 1992-7. The Conservative Party have pressed the self-destruct button. Like then, the PM has lost control of his MPs and they are in demob happy mode: shooting off their mouths no matter how inappropriate.

    Dirty sleazy tories. Gonna get a kickin'.

    It feels very different.

    The LOTO is no Blair (which may not be a bad thing). The Major Administration lost control of the media, which is unheard of for the Conservative Party. Johnson still has most newspapers, the Tories are conducting a great online ground offensive and they have BBC editorial control, something they have never had before. Labour have completely lost Scotland and the LDs are much weakened which means there is no hope for a non-Conservative Government without unacceptable conditions set by the SNP.

    I repeat it is wholly different, and Johnson still has the whip hand. Whether he will the other side of economic Armageddon is anyone's guess.
    Everything objective says the Conservatives are on the way out.
    Come back in two years.
    Are you telling me to go away?

    Thanks for the welcome.
    Not at all. When you write "everything objective says the Conservatives are on the way out" one bit of objective data you have overlooked is the date of the General Election - which may be as far away as two years.
    I cannot conceive of circumstances where the general election is before May 2024.

    Well, not unless Boris has been beavering away in the depths of Downing Street with test tubes and petri dishes and emerges next week with a cure for cancer. Even then, 52% of the population would demand 20 years of results to prove he wasn't lying...
    I think that's right. May 2024 if the Conservatives are significantly ahead in the polls, December 2024 if they are tied or behind would be my guess.
  • Options
    AlistairMAlistairM Posts: 2,004
    Roger said:

    The boy girl angle is an interesting one. I was having lunch with two friends and they told me of their son who learnt all about sex from his baby sitter. She was a neighbour of about 17 and he was 13 or 14 and apparently it went on until he was too old to need a sitter. He told them about ten years later. I asked his mother what she thought of it and she said she was shocked! His father thought he was a very lucky boy

    This is one of those situations where the gender to me is quite important. If my daughter when 14yo was introduced to sex by a 17yo male babysitter I would be calling the police. Although to be fair we wouldn't even have a babysitter at that age and also babysitters are overwhelming female (maybe for this reason?). If however my son when 14yo was introduced to sex by a 17yo female babysitter (again, don't think one is needed at that age) then I would be thinking he was very lucky indeed!
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,466
    moonshine said:

    Controversial perhaps but I think it’s great Shell and BP are going into renewables. Without them we can’t save the planet.

    No reason this should be controversial. The easiest way to decarbonise supply is for existing sellers of energy to plug low carbon products into their existing corporate platform and client base. They won’t all manage it if they have high cultural inertia but those with nimble management will.

    The area of the economy that really doesn’t get enough attention from the left (or the right) are the international commodity traders. Barely regulated, mostly private and incorporated in low tax jurisdictions, foreign policy power brokers in their own right and systemic to our economies. And often with morals in the gutter.

    Zelensky wrote to the Swiss based traders to ask them to stop buying Russian oil products, as it was funding genocide. Trafigura’s response can be loosely paraphrased as “meh”. Totsa / Total are seemingly still all in on Russia, which should be to Macron’s eternal shame.

    In comparison the British government should be fiercely defending the likes of Shell and Bp, which are not only among the fastest of the oil groups to try and transition to low carbon but also in lockstep with national interest.
    Similarly, South Korea's SK Inc started as Korea's largest refinery business, and now has one of Korea's top three battery manufacturers as a subsidiary.
  • Options
    turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 15,148

    dixiedean said:

    Election night '92 the feeling was very much that the Tories were back for a comfortable 5 more years.
    That they were unable to hold themselves together was due to incompetence, poor behaviour, and their own internal contradictions.
    I began to plot to leave the country for a bit.

    I remember it vividly. Night at the opera, with pink champagne on ice to (reluctantly) toast Prime Minister Kinnock. "Hung Parliament" said the exit polls.....then things got interesting.....
    First election I stayed up late to watch (at the ripe age of 19). Now I cannot get enough of them, although I decry the ever increasing accuracy of exit polling. Is there anything more pointless than an exit poll? The result for real is known pretty much within hours anyway.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,466

    SKS Approval Rating is a massive drag on Labour

    Redfield & Wilton Strategies
    @RedfieldWilton
    ·
    16h
    Keir Starmer Approval Rating (10 Apr):

    Approve: 27% (-4)
    Disapprove: 32% (+1)
    Net: -5% (-5)

    Changes +/- 3 Apr

    The Corbyn legacy is probably a larger one.
  • Options
    Gary_BurtonGary_Burton Posts: 737
    Idiotic remark from Crispin Blunt and very unfortunate as he is one of the few Tories I have time for particularly on foreign policy.

    Lib Dems would love a by election in Reigate.
  • Options
    TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 40,005
    edited April 2022
    Truss is just a fag paper away from hiring Annie Leibowitz to do a special on her (or more likely trying to get it done on the public's dollar).


  • Options
    turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 15,148

    tlg86 said:

    Cookie said:

    Controversial perhaps but I think it’s great Shell and BP are going into renewables. Without them we can’t save the planet.

    I don't think that's particularly controversial.
    It is when you're a lefty who actually cares more about hating capitalism than saving the planet.
    I've been told I am a Tory now, by "real" lefties, is there room in the PB Tory squad?
    Badge of honour for a moderate leftie I'd have thought!
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,980
    Sean_F said:

    darkage said:

    Khan has been completely ruined by this conviction, it is very bad. If you want to know the hell that people convicted of child sex offences go through, then look at some of the discussions on 'unlock'. Their lives are barely worth living. This state of affairs is certainly not civilisation marching forward to a state of enlightenment.

    Progress comes slowly, and is very much a case of two steps forward, one step back.

    The fact that people like Khan do face prosecution and ruin is a big improvement on where we were 25 years ago, when sexual offences against minors were likely to be covered up.
    Plus 60 years ago we still hanged people, some convictions literally meant your life was over
  • Options
    OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,088

    Unemployed 1,292,000
    Job vacancies 1,288,000

    The effect on pay rises and business investment will be interesting.

    And despite the best employment situation since anyone can remember there will be endless thousands rushing off to get themselves £50k in debt doing totally unsuitable 'university' courses.

    Despite all the negatvity on here about the economic position, the employment situation is this Country is remarkable.
    Its a good time to be skilled working class northerner.

    Not so good to be a young graduate in the south.
    Latest wage growth data don't fully bear that out. A selection of sectors below.
    Manufacturing: 1.9%
    Of which engineering: 1.5%
    Construction: 5.8%
    Accommodation/food services: 14.1%
    Finance/insurance: 12.2%
    Professional/scientific/technical 9.9%.
    Best wage growth in 'unskilled' services occupation, with graduate heave services sectors doing well and 'skilled' manual sectors lagging.
    What you really don't want to be is a public sector worker:
    Public administration: 1.4%
    Education: 1.0%.
    (ONS data on average weekly earnings incl bonuses, y/y growth rates, Feb 2022).
  • Options
    turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 15,148

    When Blunt has a pop at the criminal justice system by effectively saying "My friend isn't a wrong 'un, the system has got this wrong", it is worth bearing in mind that he does have the inside track: from May 2010 to September 2012 he was the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Prisons and Youth Justice.

    So if the system is broken, Crispin - who should we blame? You must know.

    I suspect the voters of Reigate will have a different choice of Conservative candidate by 2024.

    Under-Secretary of State for Prisons and Youth Justice reads like a very important role.
    Heathener said:

    1st.

    This is all so reminiscent of 1992-7. The Conservative Party have pressed the self-destruct button. Like then, the PM has lost control of his MPs and they are in demob happy mode: shooting off their mouths no matter how inappropriate.

    Dirty sleazy tories. Gonna get a kickin'.

    It feels very different.

    The LOTO is no Blair (which may not be a bad thing). The Major Administration lost control of the media, which is unheard of for the Conservative Party. Johnson still has most newspapers, the Tories are conducting a great online ground offensive and they have BBC editorial control, something they have never had before. Labour have completely lost Scotland and the LDs are much weakened which means there is no hope for a non-Conservative Government without unacceptable conditions set by the SNP.

    I repeat it is wholly different, and Johnson still has the whip hand. Whether he will the other side of economic Armageddon is anyone's guess.
    "and they have BBC editorial control" - do you really believe this?

    I think the BBC tries really hard to be balanced. This usually means the more extreme someone views are the more they are likely to think the BBC is biased because it does not represent their views. Can you give some examples of the editorial control? And please not the 'Johnson at the cenotaph mistake'.

    I am no fan of the BBC. I think its far too metropolitan elite, and has no concept of the population out of the bigger cities. You only need watch Countryfile to see this. You will learn more in 5 minutes of Clarksons Farm than you will in a year of Countryfile. But even with this, I think they try damn hard to be as balanced as possible, especially in terms of the political parties.
    What do you think was the BBC's motivation to edit out (clumsily) a reference to Brexit in this piece?

    https://twitter.com/PhantomPower14/status/1513092843803402246?s=20&t=Zn21Yk2vHhK6jgATF2iOYw
    I have no idea. Time? Not telling the story they wanted to?

    One clumsy bit of editing is not proof of the claim of editorial bias.
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,095

    dixiedean said:

    Election night '92 the feeling was very much that the Tories were back for a comfortable 5 more years.
    That they were unable to hold themselves together was due to incompetence, poor behaviour, and their own internal contradictions.
    I began to plot to leave the country for a bit.

    I remember it vividly. Night at the opera, with pink champagne on ice to (reluctantly) toast Prime Minister Kinnock. "Hung Parliament" said the exit polls.....then things got interesting.....
    Remember it very well. At an election party at the Savoy with a rather vivacious redhead.
  • Options
    bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 21,844

    SKS Approval Rating is a massive drag on Labour

    Redfield & Wilton Strategies
    @RedfieldWilton
    ·
    16h
    Keir Starmer Approval Rating (10 Apr):

    Approve: 27% (-4)
    Disapprove: 32% (+1)
    Net: -5% (-5)

    Changes +/- 3 Apr

    -5 is a massive drag?

    BJO you need to lie down mate
    -11 with IPSOS MASSIVE drag

    CHB you need to wake up mate
  • Options

    Idiotic remark from Crispin Blunt and very unfortunate as he is one of the few Tories I have time for particularly on foreign policy.

    Lib Dems would love a by election in Reigate.

    I really cannot understand why so many politicians do not seem to have a political antennae

    He has made this statement


    “On reflection I have decided to retract my statement defending Imran Ahmad Khan. I am sorry that my defence of him has been a cause of significant upset and concern not least to victims of sexual offences. It was not my intention to do this.

    To be clear I do not condone any form of abuse and I strongly believe in the independence and integrity of the justice system.

    It is a particularly difficult time for LGBT+ rights across the world and my statement risks distracting the APPG for Global LGBT+ Rights from its important purpose. I have today offered the officers my resignation so a new Chair can be found to continue the work of the group with full force.”
  • Options
    TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 40,005

    When Blunt has a pop at the criminal justice system by effectively saying "My friend isn't a wrong 'un, the system has got this wrong", it is worth bearing in mind that he does have the inside track: from May 2010 to September 2012 he was the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Prisons and Youth Justice.

    So if the system is broken, Crispin - who should we blame? You must know.

    I suspect the voters of Reigate will have a different choice of Conservative candidate by 2024.

    Under-Secretary of State for Prisons and Youth Justice reads like a very important role.
    Heathener said:

    1st.

    This is all so reminiscent of 1992-7. The Conservative Party have pressed the self-destruct button. Like then, the PM has lost control of his MPs and they are in demob happy mode: shooting off their mouths no matter how inappropriate.

    Dirty sleazy tories. Gonna get a kickin'.

    It feels very different.

    The LOTO is no Blair (which may not be a bad thing). The Major Administration lost control of the media, which is unheard of for the Conservative Party. Johnson still has most newspapers, the Tories are conducting a great online ground offensive and they have BBC editorial control, something they have never had before. Labour have completely lost Scotland and the LDs are much weakened which means there is no hope for a non-Conservative Government without unacceptable conditions set by the SNP.

    I repeat it is wholly different, and Johnson still has the whip hand. Whether he will the other side of economic Armageddon is anyone's guess.
    "and they have BBC editorial control" - do you really believe this?

    I think the BBC tries really hard to be balanced. This usually means the more extreme someone views are the more they are likely to think the BBC is biased because it does not represent their views. Can you give some examples of the editorial control? And please not the 'Johnson at the cenotaph mistake'.

    I am no fan of the BBC. I think its far too metropolitan elite, and has no concept of the population out of the bigger cities. You only need watch Countryfile to see this. You will learn more in 5 minutes of Clarksons Farm than you will in a year of Countryfile. But even with this, I think they try damn hard to be as balanced as possible, especially in terms of the political parties.
    What do you think was the BBC's motivation to edit out (clumsily) a reference to Brexit in this piece?

    https://twitter.com/PhantomPower14/status/1513092843803402246?s=20&t=Zn21Yk2vHhK6jgATF2iOYw
    I have no idea. Time? Not telling the story they wanted to?

    One clumsy bit of editing is not proof of the claim of editorial bias.
    An interviewee not telling the story they want so they edit his input? Definitely not a sign of editorial bias.
  • Options
    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,189

    Stocky said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    eek said:

    There are of course two issues here - is Blunt entitled to express his opinion, and is it sensible? The answer to the first is surely yes, and as I said yesterday I give him some credit for expressing it when it was obviously politically unwise. The answer to the second looks a solid no, for the reasons that Cyclefree sets out with her usual cogency.

    Should the Conservative Party take action against him? It depends whether his "clarification" expected today makes clear that he is not trivialising statutory rape of a child by a much older man (I believe that the police usually look the other way when a 16-year-old sleeps with a 15-year-old). If he were to confirm that he meant that it's no big deal, then I think he has no place in a serious party. If he clarifies that the offence is extremely serious and he is merely expressing incredulity that his friend was guilty of it, then I think that's not a political issue but a matter of judgment, and if MPs were thrown out of their parties for mistakes of judgment then, well...

    It's more than a matter of judgment - it's a fundamental attack on our Jury system - totally ignoring the (horrendous) crime an MP shouldn't be calling the decision of a Jury into doubt because he doesn't like the end result.

    And while he said he attended some of the case - as he didn't attend all of it he really isn't in a position to pass comment on the bits he didn't hear.
    Jurors are on average corruptible intimidatable and dim, and I don't think there is any duty on anybody not to attack the system in general, or isolated errors in particular. They happen. Not that I think there was one in this case, but someone claiming there was is not something to bloviate unduly about
    It must be terrifying to be innocent and have your future and reputation (and safety) in the hands of jurors. I'm not saying this MP guy is innocent - I've not followed the case and don't know the specifics of what he is charged with. But as I understand it the police (and CPS) proceed with a case on the basis that there is a decent chance of conviction. This means that actual evidence is secondary.

    I'm sure there are cases (maybe not this one) where the police and CPS think that a jury may convict because of the type of offence (believe the accuser) with no other evidence whatsoever (again - I'm not referring to this case) because they think that a jury will act out of prejudice given the nature of the charge and the notoriety of the accused.

    This is worrying if true. Maybe it isn't.
    I don't think you're right. The CPS do decide whether to prosecute on the basis of whether there is a decent chance of conviction, yes. But that depends on the quality of the evidence, so when you say the actual evidence is secondary, that's wrong.
    And on your last point, if there is no solid evidence the judge will direct the jury to acquit, regardless of any prejudice they hold.
    Have a look at the Roger Kearney murder conviction. The CPS decided to prosecute on no evidence other than he was having an affair with the murder victim and he was found guilty. He cannot appeal his conviction as there is no prosecution evidence to appeal against. His wife even gave him a full alibi for the night of the murder, yet he has spent the last 12 years in Prison. There are dozens of similar murder convictions based on no or very little evidence.

    https://www.dailyecho.co.uk/news/8202808.lawyer-gives-jury-a-list-detailing-why-they-have-to-find-kearney-not-guilty/

    The police are often just after a conviction, they are not particularly worried about whether the person is guilty or not
    That link makes no mention of the alibi.
  • Options
    dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,952

    Truss is just a fag paper away from hiring Annie Leibowitz to do a special on her (or more likely trying to get it done on the public's dollar).


    Looks like a 1000 piece jigsaw coming soon to a charity shop nearby.
  • Options
    Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 12,983

    When Blunt has a pop at the criminal justice system by effectively saying "My friend isn't a wrong 'un, the system has got this wrong", it is worth bearing in mind that he does have the inside track: from May 2010 to September 2012 he was the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Prisons and Youth Justice.

    So if the system is broken, Crispin - who should we blame? You must know.

    I suspect the voters of Reigate will have a different choice of Conservative candidate by 2024.

    Under-Secretary of State for Prisons and Youth Justice reads like a very important role.
    Heathener said:

    1st.

    This is all so reminiscent of 1992-7. The Conservative Party have pressed the self-destruct button. Like then, the PM has lost control of his MPs and they are in demob happy mode: shooting off their mouths no matter how inappropriate.

    Dirty sleazy tories. Gonna get a kickin'.

    It feels very different.

    The LOTO is no Blair (which may not be a bad thing). The Major Administration lost control of the media, which is unheard of for the Conservative Party. Johnson still has most newspapers, the Tories are conducting a great online ground offensive and they have BBC editorial control, something they have never had before. Labour have completely lost Scotland and the LDs are much weakened which means there is no hope for a non-Conservative Government without unacceptable conditions set by the SNP.

    I repeat it is wholly different, and Johnson still has the whip hand. Whether he will the other side of economic Armageddon is anyone's guess.
    "and they have BBC editorial control" - do you really believe this?

    I think the BBC tries really hard to be balanced. This usually means the more extreme someone views are the more they are likely to think the BBC is biased because it does not represent their views. Can you give some examples of the editorial control? And please not the 'Johnson at the cenotaph mistake'.

    I am no fan of the BBC. I think its far too metropolitan elite, and has no concept of the population out of the bigger cities. You only need watch Countryfile to see this. You will learn more in 5 minutes of Clarksons Farm than you will in a year of Countryfile. But even with this, I think they try damn hard to be as balanced as possible, especially in terms of the political parties.
    What do you think was the BBC's motivation to edit out (clumsily) a reference to Brexit in this piece?

    https://twitter.com/PhantomPower14/status/1513092843803402246?s=20&t=Zn21Yk2vHhK6jgATF2iOYw
    Because they know the tories are thin skinned bullies and they are scared of getting the C4 treatment from Mad Nad.
  • Options
    Gary_BurtonGary_Burton Posts: 737
    HYUFD said:

    When Blunt has a pop at the criminal justice system by effectively saying "My friend isn't a wrong 'un, the system has got this wrong", it is worth bearing in mind that he does have the inside track: from May 2010 to September 2012 he was the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Prisons and Youth Justice.

    So if the system is broken, Crispin - who should we blame? You must know.

    I suspect the voters of Reigate will have a different choice of Conservative candidate by 2024.

    Under-Secretary of State for Prisons and Youth Justice reads like a very important role.
    Heathener said:

    1st.

    This is all so reminiscent of 1992-7. The Conservative Party have pressed the self-destruct button. Like then, the PM has lost control of his MPs and they are in demob happy mode: shooting off their mouths no matter how inappropriate.

    Dirty sleazy tories. Gonna get a kickin'.

    It feels very different.

    The LOTO is no Blair (which may not be a bad thing). The Major Administration lost control of the media, which is unheard of for the Conservative Party. Johnson still has most newspapers, the Tories are conducting a great online ground offensive and they have BBC editorial control, something they have never had before. Labour have completely lost Scotland and the LDs are much weakened which means there is no hope for a non-Conservative Government without unacceptable conditions set by the SNP.

    I repeat it is wholly different, and Johnson still has the whip hand. Whether he will the other side of economic Armageddon is anyone's guess.
    I do not think you are right and it does not matter how often you repeat the assertion. The media are not wholly pro Johnson and never like hypocrisy which makes the comparison made by Heathener valid.

    Labour have not "completely lost" Scotland. It is simply a great untruth to state that Labour are not improving their position in Scotland: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_next_Scottish_Parliament_election

    I grant you that their position is not as it was back in 1997 but it does not need to be. There will be no such thing as "unacceptable conditions" set by the SNP. They will simply ask for and receive a 2nd Referendum on Scottish independence in exchange for a confidence and supply. It is not rocket science and Labour will be fine with that because the condition will be that Labour can campaign for the union. The SNP will be happy to accept.

    The Liberal Democrats are in a strong position as challengers in key areas that will severely dent the Conservatives especially around West and South-West London and Surrey. With Labour's blind eye support they will decapitate important Conservative MP's.

    Latest UK polling yesterday had Labour with an 8% lead. At the last General Election the Conservatives won by 11.5%. This is a huge shift in British public opinion.

    Everything objective says the Conservatives are on the way out.
    The Scottish seats is a huge difference though. Those 56 seats need finding elsewhere in the UK, and that makes it a lot harder, or you face coalition. And it its with the SNP you know what the price will be.
    I do not see why Labour will have any problem having an agreement with the SNP. The price will be a referendum on independence not independence. There is an important difference and both parties will accept that as a fair deal.
    And what will Labour campaign for in this subsequent referendum?

    And what will happen if the SNP win? Labour lose "their" Scottish seats forever. Bye bye Starmer.

    And what happens if the SNP lose? I'm sure they would happily continue co-operatively working with Labour after their dreams are destroyed. Bye Bye Starmer.

    It's a marriage made in heaven. What could possibly go wrong!
    Provided Labour have most seats, a PM Starmer can ignore the SNP even in a hung parliament and the SNP are hardly likely to vote with the Tory opposition. He can just offer devomax.

    Only if the Tories have most seats in a hung parliament does Starmer have to offer the SNP indyref2 to get into power
    I would be surprised if there is another referendum this side of 2030. Certainly the earliest it can realistically happen now is 2028, two years after the next Holyrood election. Also it's generally older Indy supporters who are impatient for another referendum. A lot of younger SNP/Green supporters who like Sturgeon seem happy to kick the can down the road.
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,095
    edited April 2022

    Unemployed 1,292,000
    Job vacancies 1,288,000

    The effect on pay rises and business investment will be interesting.

    And despite the best employment situation since anyone can remember there will be endless thousands rushing off to get themselves £50k in debt doing totally unsuitable 'university' courses.

    Despite all the negatvity on here about the economic position, the employment situation is this Country is remarkable.
    Its a good time to be skilled working class northerner.

    Not so good to be a young graduate in the south.
    Latest wage growth data don't fully bear that out. A selection of sectors below.
    Manufacturing: 1.9%
    Of which engineering: 1.5%
    Construction: 5.8%
    Accommodation/food services: 14.1%
    Finance/insurance: 12.2%
    Professional/scientific/technical 9.9%.
    Best wage growth in 'unskilled' services occupation, with graduate heave services sectors doing well and 'skilled' manual sectors lagging.
    What you really don't want to be is a public sector worker:
    Public administration: 1.4%
    Education: 1.0%.
    (ONS data on average weekly earnings incl bonuses, y/y growth rates, Feb 2022).
    Public sector workers had their salaries and pensions paid right the way through the Covid pandemic though. Netted out over the past three years, they've done alright.
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    dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,952

    And I’m back!

    Quick op, which is a good sign that nothing was too bad, though I haven’t seen the surgeon yet.

    Thank for all the good wishes.

    Wow. I've only managed two coffees and three cigarettes!
    Best wishes. Hope all goes well.
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    Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 12,983

    Truss is just a fag paper away from hiring Annie Leibowitz to do a special on her (or more likely trying to get it done on the public's dollar).


    Dressing gown + wellies is a rig of the day more traditionally associated with the hopelessly deranged than a cabinet minister.
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    Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 8,843
    darkage said:

    Khan has been completely ruined by this conviction, it is very bad. If you want to know the hell that people convicted of child sex offences go through, then look at some of the discussions on 'unlock'. Their lives are barely worth living. This state of affairs is certainly not civilisation marching forward to a state of enlightenment.

    Before you shed too many tears for the lives of convicted child abusers remember the living hell many of their victims continue to live with for the rest of their lives. The difference is the child abuser had a choice to do it or not. The victim not so much. The saying "you made your bed..." is apposite here
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    NerysHughesNerysHughes Posts: 3,347

    Stocky said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    eek said:

    There are of course two issues here - is Blunt entitled to express his opinion, and is it sensible? The answer to the first is surely yes, and as I said yesterday I give him some credit for expressing it when it was obviously politically unwise. The answer to the second looks a solid no, for the reasons that Cyclefree sets out with her usual cogency.

    Should the Conservative Party take action against him? It depends whether his "clarification" expected today makes clear that he is not trivialising statutory rape of a child by a much older man (I believe that the police usually look the other way when a 16-year-old sleeps with a 15-year-old). If he were to confirm that he meant that it's no big deal, then I think he has no place in a serious party. If he clarifies that the offence is extremely serious and he is merely expressing incredulity that his friend was guilty of it, then I think that's not a political issue but a matter of judgment, and if MPs were thrown out of their parties for mistakes of judgment then, well...

    It's more than a matter of judgment - it's a fundamental attack on our Jury system - totally ignoring the (horrendous) crime an MP shouldn't be calling the decision of a Jury into doubt because he doesn't like the end result.

    And while he said he attended some of the case - as he didn't attend all of it he really isn't in a position to pass comment on the bits he didn't hear.
    Jurors are on average corruptible intimidatable and dim, and I don't think there is any duty on anybody not to attack the system in general, or isolated errors in particular. They happen. Not that I think there was one in this case, but someone claiming there was is not something to bloviate unduly about
    It must be terrifying to be innocent and have your future and reputation (and safety) in the hands of jurors. I'm not saying this MP guy is innocent - I've not followed the case and don't know the specifics of what he is charged with. But as I understand it the police (and CPS) proceed with a case on the basis that there is a decent chance of conviction. This means that actual evidence is secondary.

    I'm sure there are cases (maybe not this one) where the police and CPS think that a jury may convict because of the type of offence (believe the accuser) with no other evidence whatsoever (again - I'm not referring to this case) because they think that a jury will act out of prejudice given the nature of the charge and the notoriety of the accused.

    This is worrying if true. Maybe it isn't.
    I don't think you're right. The CPS do decide whether to prosecute on the basis of whether there is a decent chance of conviction, yes. But that depends on the quality of the evidence, so when you say the actual evidence is secondary, that's wrong.
    And on your last point, if there is no solid evidence the judge will direct the jury to acquit, regardless of any prejudice they hold.
    Have a look at the Roger Kearney murder conviction. The CPS decided to prosecute on no evidence other than he was having an affair with the murder victim and he was found guilty. He cannot appeal his conviction as there is no prosecution evidence to appeal against. His wife even gave him a full alibi for the night of the murder, yet he has spent the last 12 years in Prison. There are dozens of similar murder convictions based on no or very little evidence.

    https://www.dailyecho.co.uk/news/8202808.lawyer-gives-jury-a-list-detailing-why-they-have-to-find-kearney-not-guilty/

    The police are often just after a conviction, they are not particularly worried about whether the person is guilty or not
    If you ever wondered where Constable Savage ended up after the SPG.

    "He's a wrong 'un, Sir..."
    Exactly, I have no idea whether Kearney is guilty is not, but there was absolutely no forensic evidence, no circumstantial evidence and his wife (despite learning of the affair on his arrest) gave him a full alibi for the night of the murder. He was convicted on nothing. 5 years ago I had a completely wrong impression of how the justice system works and thought the term "beyond reasonable doubt" actually meant something. It often really doesn't.
  • Options
    another_richardanother_richard Posts: 25,055

    Unemployed 1,292,000
    Job vacancies 1,288,000

    The effect on pay rises and business investment will be interesting.

    And despite the best employment situation since anyone can remember there will be endless thousands rushing off to get themselves £50k in debt doing totally unsuitable 'university' courses.

    Despite all the negatvity on here about the economic position, the employment situation is this Country is remarkable.
    Its a good time to be skilled working class northerner.

    Not so good to be a young graduate in the south.
    Latest wage growth data don't fully bear that out. A selection of sectors below.
    Manufacturing: 1.9%
    Of which engineering: 1.5%
    Construction: 5.8%
    Accommodation/food services: 14.1%
    Finance/insurance: 12.2%
    Professional/scientific/technical 9.9%.
    Best wage growth in 'unskilled' services occupation, with graduate heave services sectors doing well and 'skilled' manual sectors lagging.
    What you really don't want to be is a public sector worker:
    Public administration: 1.4%
    Education: 1.0%.
    (ONS data on average weekly earnings incl bonuses, y/y growth rates, Feb 2022).
    Merely my anecdote (although backed up by the PMIs) but pay is increasing rapidly in manufacturing and construction currently.

    As many people will be getting their annual pay rise in April we should see any effect come through in the next few months.
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    boulayboulay Posts: 3,905

    Truss is just a fag paper away from hiring Annie Leibowitz to do a special on her (or more likely trying to get it done on the public's dollar).


    She’s a white bonnet away from full handmaid’s tale….


  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,052

    Truss is just a fag paper away from hiring Annie Leibowitz to do a special on her (or more likely trying to get it done on the public's dollar).


    Cynthia Nixon wants to go into politics, so maybe they should swap jobs.
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    turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 15,148

    When Blunt has a pop at the criminal justice system by effectively saying "My friend isn't a wrong 'un, the system has got this wrong", it is worth bearing in mind that he does have the inside track: from May 2010 to September 2012 he was the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Prisons and Youth Justice.

    So if the system is broken, Crispin - who should we blame? You must know.

    I suspect the voters of Reigate will have a different choice of Conservative candidate by 2024.

    Under-Secretary of State for Prisons and Youth Justice reads like a very important role.
    Heathener said:

    1st.

    This is all so reminiscent of 1992-7. The Conservative Party have pressed the self-destruct button. Like then, the PM has lost control of his MPs and they are in demob happy mode: shooting off their mouths no matter how inappropriate.

    Dirty sleazy tories. Gonna get a kickin'.

    It feels very different.

    The LOTO is no Blair (which may not be a bad thing). The Major Administration lost control of the media, which is unheard of for the Conservative Party. Johnson still has most newspapers, the Tories are conducting a great online ground offensive and they have BBC editorial control, something they have never had before. Labour have completely lost Scotland and the LDs are much weakened which means there is no hope for a non-Conservative Government without unacceptable conditions set by the SNP.

    I repeat it is wholly different, and Johnson still has the whip hand. Whether he will the other side of economic Armageddon is anyone's guess.
    "and they have BBC editorial control" - do you really believe this?

    I think the BBC tries really hard to be balanced. This usually means the more extreme someone views are the more they are likely to think the BBC is biased because it does not represent their views. Can you give some examples of the editorial control? And please not the 'Johnson at the cenotaph mistake'.

    I am no fan of the BBC. I think its far too metropolitan elite, and has no concept of the population out of the bigger cities. You only need watch Countryfile to see this. You will learn more in 5 minutes of Clarksons Farm than you will in a year of Countryfile. But even with this, I think they try damn hard to be as balanced as possible, especially in terms of the political parties.
    What do you think was the BBC's motivation to edit out (clumsily) a reference to Brexit in this piece?

    https://twitter.com/PhantomPower14/status/1513092843803402246?s=20&t=Zn21Yk2vHhK6jgATF2iOYw
    I have no idea. Time? Not telling the story they wanted to?

    One clumsy bit of editing is not proof of the claim of editorial bias.
    An interviewee not telling the story they want so they edit his input? Definitely not a sign of editorial bias.
    One data point.
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    MattWMattW Posts: 18,447
    Excellent piece.
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    MattWMattW Posts: 18,447
    boulay said:

    Truss is just a fag paper away from hiring Annie Leibowitz to do a special on her (or more likely trying to get it done on the public's dollar).


    She’s a white bonnet away from full handmaid’s tale….


    What depressing kneejerk reactions. Truss was styled by the fashion lecturer who put on the exhibition:

    Sophie photographed Elizabeth in her constituency, close to where she grew up and began her photography. The all-female team shot on location at Hockwold Hall, which also has a direct link to the suffragettes. Alongside photographing, Sophie also styled Elizabeth, using clothing from local graduate designers and stores. The final portrait features a dress created by Norwich University of the Arts graduate Kate Illingsworth.
    https://www.wsc.ac.uk/about-the-college/news/4819-college-lecturer-photographs-liz-truss-for-209-women-initiative
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    NerysHughesNerysHughes Posts: 3,347

    Unemployed 1,292,000
    Job vacancies 1,288,000

    The effect on pay rises and business investment will be interesting.

    And despite the best employment situation since anyone can remember there will be endless thousands rushing off to get themselves £50k in debt doing totally unsuitable 'university' courses.

    Despite all the negatvity on here about the economic position, the employment situation is this Country is remarkable.
    Its a good time to be skilled working class northerner.

    Not so good to be a young graduate in the south.
    Latest wage growth data don't fully bear that out. A selection of sectors below.
    Manufacturing: 1.9%
    Of which engineering: 1.5%
    Construction: 5.8%
    Accommodation/food services: 14.1%
    Finance/insurance: 12.2%
    Professional/scientific/technical 9.9%.
    Best wage growth in 'unskilled' services occupation, with graduate heave services sectors doing well and 'skilled' manual sectors lagging.
    What you really don't want to be is a public sector worker:
    Public administration: 1.4%
    Education: 1.0%.
    (ONS data on average weekly earnings incl bonuses, y/y growth rates, Feb 2022).
    Merely my anecdote (although backed up by the PMIs) but pay is increasing rapidly in manufacturing and construction currently.

    As many people will be getting their annual pay rise in April we should see any effect come through in the next few months.
    For an electrician in Hampshire wages have gone up between 25-30% over the past 3 years.
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    mwadamsmwadams Posts: 3,137
    Applicant said:

    When Blunt has a pop at the criminal justice system by effectively saying "My friend isn't a wrong 'un, the system has got this wrong", it is worth bearing in mind that he does have the inside track: from May 2010 to September 2012 he was the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Prisons and Youth Justice.

    So if the system is broken, Crispin - who should we blame? You must know.

    I suspect the voters of Reigate will have a different choice of Conservative candidate by 2024.

    Under-Secretary of State for Prisons and Youth Justice reads like a very important role.
    Heathener said:

    1st.

    This is all so reminiscent of 1992-7. The Conservative Party have pressed the self-destruct button. Like then, the PM has lost control of his MPs and they are in demob happy mode: shooting off their mouths no matter how inappropriate.

    Dirty sleazy tories. Gonna get a kickin'.

    It feels very different.

    The LOTO is no Blair (which may not be a bad thing). The Major Administration lost control of the media, which is unheard of for the Conservative Party. Johnson still has most newspapers, the Tories are conducting a great online ground offensive and they have BBC editorial control, something they have never had before. Labour have completely lost Scotland and the LDs are much weakened which means there is no hope for a non-Conservative Government without unacceptable conditions set by the SNP.

    I repeat it is wholly different, and Johnson still has the whip hand. Whether he will the other side of economic Armageddon is anyone's guess.
    I do not think you are right and it does not matter how often you repeat the assertion. The media are not wholly pro Johnson and never like hypocrisy which makes the comparison made by Heathener valid.

    Labour have not "completely lost" Scotland. It is simply a great untruth to state that Labour are not improving their position in Scotland: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_next_Scottish_Parliament_election

    I grant you that their position is not as it was back in 1997 but it does not need to be. There will be no such thing as "unacceptable conditions" set by the SNP. They will simply ask for and receive a 2nd Referendum on Scottish independence in exchange for a confidence and supply. It is not rocket science and Labour will be fine with that because the condition will be that Labour can campaign for the union. The SNP will be happy to accept.

    The Liberal Democrats are in a strong position as challengers in key areas that will severely dent the Conservatives especially around West and South-West London and Surrey. With Labour's blind eye support they will decapitate important Conservative MP's.

    Latest UK polling yesterday had Labour with an 8% lead. At the last General Election the Conservatives won by 11.5%. This is a huge shift in British public opinion.

    Everything objective says the Conservatives are on the way out.
    Ah, the Lib Dems are going to get obsessed with "decapitation" again? Useful to know.
    I think this is just a polite way of admitting that they aren't in a position to run a national campaign. They will be heavily targeting a comparatively small number of seats, and shoring up their sitting MPs.
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    TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 40,005
    Dura_Ace said:

    Truss is just a fag paper away from hiring Annie Leibowitz to do a special on her (or more likely trying to get it done on the public's dollar).


    Dressing gown + wellies is a rig of the day more traditionally associated with the hopelessly deranged than a cabinet minister.
    I'll confidently predict that the phrase 'I can pull this look off' stampeded through style maven Truss's head.
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    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,279

    And I’m back!

    Quick op, which is a good sign that nothing was too bad, though I haven’t seen the surgeon yet.

    Thank for all the good wishes.

    Excellent news
  • Options
    algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 10,504

    By the way, contyrary to what some of us thought yesterday, the recall process, if triggered by court action, does not (according to the Guardian) kick in until all appeals have been exhausted, so the potential by-election is some way off.

    Yes. It's in sec 1 and 3 of the Act, which, though not brilliantly drafted, it's clear enough.

    There is of course no such thing as a time when " it is no longer possible for there to be a relevant appeal" (sec 3.1). Ask any postmaster.

    https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2015/25/2015-06-22

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    Fysics_TeacherFysics_Teacher Posts: 6,060
    HYUFD said:
    So in the lead, but too close for potential anti-Le Pen voters to take it for granted?

    I might put a bit on Macron.

    But not until the effects of the anaesthetic wear off…
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    I’ve just stopped for my first beer. I somehow forgot to buy any on my way out of Banyuls this morning, so I’ve worked up quite a thirst. I’m in a little town called Port Verdres, which neighbours Collioures (where I intend to have lunch at Casa Leon!).

    The weather today is the worst so far: the sky is totally overcast and it isn’t remotely warm. I’m rather pleased about this as I caught a bit too much sun while cooled by the strong wind yesterday and I need a day in the shade.

    I was delighted to discover this morning on checking out that my delicious dinner last night only cost me €29. I spent nearly that on beer. The lady on reception went through my bill with me and tilted her head slightly as she checked the number of beers I’d had; I looked at her deadly serious and said “En vacances je bois comme un trou” (on holiday I drink like a hole). She laughed quite hard.
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    Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 12,983
    MattW said:



    What depressing kneejerk reactions. Truss was styled by the fashion lecturer who put on the exhibition:

    So that's Lavrov and this fashion designer who have mugged Fizzy Lizzy off and made her look a fucking idiot in recent weeks.
  • Options
    Fysics_TeacherFysics_Teacher Posts: 6,060

    I’ve just stopped for my first beer. I somehow forgot to buy any on my way out of Banyuls this morning, so I’ve worked up quite a thirst. I’m in a little town called Port Verdres, which neighbours Collioures (where I intend to have lunch at Casa Leon!).

    The weather today is the worst so far: the sky is totally overcast and it isn’t remotely warm. I’m rather pleased about this as I caught a bit too much sun while cooled by the strong wind yesterday and I need a day in the shade.

    I was delighted to discover this morning on checking out that my delicious dinner last night only cost me €29. I spent nearly that on beer. The lady on reception went through my bill with me and tilted her head slightly as she checked the number of beers I’d had; I looked at her deadly serious and said “En vacances je bois comme un trou” (on holiday I drink like a hole). She laughed quite hard.

    Great phrase!
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    Gary_BurtonGary_Burton Posts: 737
    edited April 2022
    Sean_F said:

    When Blunt has a pop at the criminal justice system by effectively saying "My friend isn't a wrong 'un, the system has got this wrong", it is worth bearing in mind that he does have the inside track: from May 2010 to September 2012 he was the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Prisons and Youth Justice.

    So if the system is broken, Crispin - who should we blame? You must know.

    I suspect the voters of Reigate will have a different choice of Conservative candidate by 2024.

    Under-Secretary of State for Prisons and Youth Justice reads like a very important role.
    Heathener said:

    1st.

    This is all so reminiscent of 1992-7. The Conservative Party have pressed the self-destruct button. Like then, the PM has lost control of his MPs and they are in demob happy mode: shooting off their mouths no matter how inappropriate.

    Dirty sleazy tories. Gonna get a kickin'.

    It feels very different.

    The LOTO is no Blair (which may not be a bad thing). The Major Administration lost control of the media, which is unheard of for the Conservative Party. Johnson still has most newspapers, the Tories are conducting a great online ground offensive and they have BBC editorial control, something they have never had before. Labour have completely lost Scotland and the LDs are much weakened which means there is no hope for a non-Conservative Government without unacceptable conditions set by the SNP.

    I repeat it is wholly different, and Johnson still has the whip hand. Whether he will the other side of economic Armageddon is anyone's guess.
    I do not think you are right and it does not matter how often you repeat the assertion. The media are not wholly pro Johnson and never like hypocrisy which makes the comparison made by Heathener valid.

    Labour have not "completely lost" Scotland. It is simply a great untruth to state that Labour are not improving their position in Scotland: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_next_Scottish_Parliament_election

    I grant you that their position is not as it was back in 1997 but it does not need to be. There will be no such thing as "unacceptable conditions" set by the SNP. They will simply ask for and receive a 2nd Referendum on Scottish independence in exchange for a confidence and supply. It is not rocket science and Labour will be fine with that because the condition will be that Labour can campaign for the union. The SNP will be happy to accept.

    The Liberal Democrats are in a strong position as challengers in key areas that will severely dent the Conservatives especially around West and South-West London and Surrey. With Labour's blind eye support they will decapitate important Conservative MP's.

    Latest UK polling yesterday had Labour with an 8% lead. At the last General Election the Conservatives won by 11.5%. This is a huge shift in British public opinion.

    Everything objective says the Conservatives are on the way out.
    They may be. But, back in the mid 90's Labour was winning places like Hertsmere, Dacorum, Kettering, Fenland (!), Castle Point etc. where they're not even in the running now.
    I think 300 seats would be a momentous result for Labour TBH (especially given that Labour will struggle to get more than 15-20 seats in Scotland ever again), I have a lot of doubts about Starmer personally although 260-280 seats similar to 2017 is still possible if whoever leading the Conservatives is more unpopular. And yes there aren't many places like Southport, Altrincham and possibly even now Macclesfield that Labour has never won before that are now viable targets.

    Having said that I don't necessarily buy the idea that the Tories will easily reinvent themselves in opposition and be back in after one term if they do lose the next GE (or get locked out by Lab+SNP+LDs) as I made the mistake of thinking that was possible for Labour after 2010 (as did the National party in New Zealand after 2017 and also Scottish Labour after 2007).
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    IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    algarkirk said:

    By the way, contyrary to what some of us thought yesterday, the recall process, if triggered by court action, does not (according to the Guardian) kick in until all appeals have been exhausted, so the potential by-election is some way off.

    Yes. It's in sec 1 and 3 of the Act, which, though not brilliantly drafted, it's clear enough.

    There is of course no such thing as a time when " it is no longer possible for there to be a relevant appeal" (sec 3.1). Ask any postmaster.

    https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2015/25/2015-06-22

    There's two quite distinct Acts which are relevant

    your point about postmasters appears to be wrong because the 2021 cases were referrals by the Criminal Cases Review Commission, expressly excluded by s 3 (5) d
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    RogerRoger Posts: 18,891
    edited April 2022

    Truss is just a fag paper away from hiring Annie Leibowitz to do a special on her (or more likely trying to get it done on the public's dollar).


    Gimme one of these Annie....these students are crap

    https://hauteliving.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/1510102703817.jpg
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    algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 10,504

    Stocky said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    eek said:

    There are of course two issues here - is Blunt entitled to express his opinion, and is it sensible? The answer to the first is surely yes, and as I said yesterday I give him some credit for expressing it when it was obviously politically unwise. The answer to the second looks a solid no, for the reasons that Cyclefree sets out with her usual cogency.

    Should the Conservative Party take action against him? It depends whether his "clarification" expected today makes clear that he is not trivialising statutory rape of a child by a much older man (I believe that the police usually look the other way when a 16-year-old sleeps with a 15-year-old). If he were to confirm that he meant that it's no big deal, then I think he has no place in a serious party. If he clarifies that the offence is extremely serious and he is merely expressing incredulity that his friend was guilty of it, then I think that's not a political issue but a matter of judgment, and if MPs were thrown out of their parties for mistakes of judgment then, well...

    It's more than a matter of judgment - it's a fundamental attack on our Jury system - totally ignoring the (horrendous) crime an MP shouldn't be calling the decision of a Jury into doubt because he doesn't like the end result.

    And while he said he attended some of the case - as he didn't attend all of it he really isn't in a position to pass comment on the bits he didn't hear.
    Jurors are on average corruptible intimidatable and dim, and I don't think there is any duty on anybody not to attack the system in general, or isolated errors in particular. They happen. Not that I think there was one in this case, but someone claiming there was is not something to bloviate unduly about
    It must be terrifying to be innocent and have your future and reputation (and safety) in the hands of jurors. I'm not saying this MP guy is innocent - I've not followed the case and don't know the specifics of what he is charged with. But as I understand it the police (and CPS) proceed with a case on the basis that there is a decent chance of conviction. This means that actual evidence is secondary.

    I'm sure there are cases (maybe not this one) where the police and CPS think that a jury may convict because of the type of offence (believe the accuser) with no other evidence whatsoever (again - I'm not referring to this case) because they think that a jury will act out of prejudice given the nature of the charge and the notoriety of the accused.

    This is worrying if true. Maybe it isn't.
    I don't think you're right. The CPS do decide whether to prosecute on the basis of whether there is a decent chance of conviction, yes. But that depends on the quality of the evidence, so when you say the actual evidence is secondary, that's wrong.
    And on your last point, if there is no solid evidence the judge will direct the jury to acquit, regardless of any prejudice they hold.
    Have a look at the Roger Kearney murder conviction. The CPS decided to prosecute on no evidence other than he was having an affair with the murder victim and he was found guilty. He cannot appeal his conviction as there is no prosecution evidence to appeal against. His wife even gave him a full alibi for the night of the murder, yet he has spent the last 12 years in Prison. There are dozens of similar murder convictions based on no or very little evidence.

    https://www.dailyecho.co.uk/news/8202808.lawyer-gives-jury-a-list-detailing-why-they-have-to-find-kearney-not-guilty/

    The police are often just after a conviction, they are not particularly worried about whether the person is guilty or not
    I don't know this case, but the assertion that "he cannot appeal as there is no prosecution evidence to appeal against" is just factually wrong.

    If this were the case then the judge must have made a ruling at the close of the prosecution case that there WAS a case to answer and must give reasons in open court. This judgement can be appealed.

    A cursory Google shows that this case was appealed, that the single judge said no, that the appellant didn't take it to an oral hearing for leave to appeal, and the the CCRC has rejected the case.

  • Options
    Gary_BurtonGary_Burton Posts: 737

    HYUFD said:
    So in the lead, but too close for potential anti-Le Pen voters to take it for granted?

    I might put a bit on Macron.

    But not until the effects of the anaesthetic wear off…
    Right now I think the result will be Macron 55% Le Pen 45%. Nothing between Le Pen getting 52% and Macron getting 60% would surprise me though.
  • Options
    MISTYMISTY Posts: 1,594
    I don't see why the tories are not far more concerned about the cost of living crisis than they are.

    Perhaps they are basking in the praise lavished on them in the media over Ukraine. Out there in the country, I suspect the view is very different. People are ready to listen to labour on wealth taxes.
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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,598
    Somebody has sabotaged the railway tracks near Belgorod, a Russian border town close to the Ukrainian city of Kharkiv.

    It will put a stop to Russian troop redeployments from Kyiv to the Donbas for a while.

    Looks like Ukraine has sabotage teams working within Russia itself.


    https://twitter.com/visegrad24/status/1513821648394334209
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    tlg86 said:

    Cookie said:

    Controversial perhaps but I think it’s great Shell and BP are going into renewables. Without them we can’t save the planet.

    I don't think that's particularly controversial.
    It is when you're a lefty who actually cares more about hating capitalism than saving the planet.
    I've been told I am a Tory now, by "real" lefties, is there room in the PB Tory squad?
    Badge of honour for a moderate leftie I'd have thought!
    I wear it with pride!
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    CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,183
    edited April 2022
    IshmaelZ said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Blunt has deleted his tweet and statement.

    Now he needs to retract them.

    This is what he said - https://twitter.com/soniasodha/status/1513648564689375238?s=21&t=A7goiI85ZLJ4xW-JnAbjwA.

    To my mind he needs to make it absolutely clear that he does not think that sexual abuse of a boy is " minor on any scale". It is an appalling thing to say.
    He said that *one particular incident* of the sexual abuse of a boy was minor on any scale. That is a completely different statement from your version of it. Let's not throw logic out of the window, shall we, no matter how indignant we are?
    I didn't give my version of it. I attached the copy of exactly what he wrote.
  • Options
    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,179
    President Vladimir V. Putin of Russia said on Tuesday that the “main goal” of the war in Ukraine was “to help people” in the country’s east, the latest sign that Russia is focused on the battle for the Donbas region as the next stage of the war.

    Mr. Putin, visiting a spaceport in the Russian Far East along with President Aleksandr G. Lukashenko of Belarus, his close ally, told workers at the facility in televised remarks that “there is no doubt” that the war will be successful.

    NY Times blog
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    @turbotubbs just been out for a short run, it is glorious today in London. Lovely 17 degrees.

    Sadly been suffering from shin splints, got the new shoes fitted with extra support, so increasing the mileage again slowly.
  • Options
    BREAKING: Police have now made over 50 referrals for partygate fines. That’s more than double their last update a couple of weeks ago. The scale is damning.

    https://twitter.com/PaulBrandITV/status/1513827310717353990

    The parties didn't happen
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    IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    MISTY said:

    I don't see why the tories are not far more concerned about the cost of living crisis than they are.

    Perhaps they are basking in the praise lavished on them in the media over Ukraine. Out there in the country, I suspect the view is very different. People are ready to listen to labour on wealth taxes.

    It is possible the head money honcho is not wholly focused on the job, except in the sense of focusing on saving it
  • Options

    I’ve just stopped for my first beer. I somehow forgot to buy any on my way out of Banyuls this morning, so I’ve worked up quite a thirst. I’m in a little town called Port Verdres, which neighbours Collioures (where I intend to have lunch at Casa Leon!).

    The weather today is the worst so far: the sky is totally overcast and it isn’t remotely warm. I’m rather pleased about this as I caught a bit too much sun while cooled by the strong wind yesterday and I need a day in the shade.

    I was delighted to discover this morning on checking out that my delicious dinner last night only cost me €29. I spent nearly that on beer. The lady on reception went through my bill with me and tilted her head slightly as she checked the number of beers I’d had; I looked at her deadly serious and said “En vacances je bois comme un trou” (on holiday I drink like a hole). She laughed quite hard.

    Great phrase!
    I love French idiom. I’m not sure how I’ll be able to use my favourite one - il a le cul bordé de nouilles (he has an arse surrounded by noodles) which somehow means he is very lucky.
  • Options
    RogerRoger Posts: 18,891

    BREAKING: Police have now made over 50 referrals for partygate fines. That’s more than double their last update a couple of weeks ago. The scale is damning.

    https://twitter.com/PaulBrandITV/status/1513827310717353990

    The parties didn't happen

    Looks like a trip to Donbass PDQ
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    nico679nico679 Posts: 4,772
    Still quite a variation in the run off polls from 55 to 45 to Macron to 52.5 v 47.5.

    Macron has indicated that he’s willing to make some changes to his pension reforms in an effort to shore up more left wing support .

    So will be interesting to see what these are and what effect they might have on the polls.
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    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,800

    Sean_F said:

    When Blunt has a pop at the criminal justice system by effectively saying "My friend isn't a wrong 'un, the system has got this wrong", it is worth bearing in mind that he does have the inside track: from May 2010 to September 2012 he was the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Prisons and Youth Justice.

    So if the system is broken, Crispin - who should we blame? You must know.

    I suspect the voters of Reigate will have a different choice of Conservative candidate by 2024.

    Under-Secretary of State for Prisons and Youth Justice reads like a very important role.
    Heathener said:

    1st.

    This is all so reminiscent of 1992-7. The Conservative Party have pressed the self-destruct button. Like then, the PM has lost control of his MPs and they are in demob happy mode: shooting off their mouths no matter how inappropriate.

    Dirty sleazy tories. Gonna get a kickin'.

    It feels very different.

    The LOTO is no Blair (which may not be a bad thing). The Major Administration lost control of the media, which is unheard of for the Conservative Party. Johnson still has most newspapers, the Tories are conducting a great online ground offensive and they have BBC editorial control, something they have never had before. Labour have completely lost Scotland and the LDs are much weakened which means there is no hope for a non-Conservative Government without unacceptable conditions set by the SNP.

    I repeat it is wholly different, and Johnson still has the whip hand. Whether he will the other side of economic Armageddon is anyone's guess.
    I do not think you are right and it does not matter how often you repeat the assertion. The media are not wholly pro Johnson and never like hypocrisy which makes the comparison made by Heathener valid.

    Labour have not "completely lost" Scotland. It is simply a great untruth to state that Labour are not improving their position in Scotland: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_next_Scottish_Parliament_election

    I grant you that their position is not as it was back in 1997 but it does not need to be. There will be no such thing as "unacceptable conditions" set by the SNP. They will simply ask for and receive a 2nd Referendum on Scottish independence in exchange for a confidence and supply. It is not rocket science and Labour will be fine with that because the condition will be that Labour can campaign for the union. The SNP will be happy to accept.

    The Liberal Democrats are in a strong position as challengers in key areas that will severely dent the Conservatives especially around West and South-West London and Surrey. With Labour's blind eye support they will decapitate important Conservative MP's.

    Latest UK polling yesterday had Labour with an 8% lead. At the last General Election the Conservatives won by 11.5%. This is a huge shift in British public opinion.

    Everything objective says the Conservatives are on the way out.
    They may be. But, back in the mid 90's Labour was winning places like Hertsmere, Dacorum, Kettering, Fenland (!), Castle Point etc. where they're not even in the running now.
    I think 300 seats would be a momentous result for Labour TBH (especially given that Labour will struggle to get more than 15-20 seats in Scotland ever again), I have a lot of doubts about Starmer personally although 260-280 seats similar to 2017 is still possible if whoever leading the Conservatives is more unpopular. And yes there aren't many places like Southport, Altrincham and possibly even now Macclesfield that Labour has never won before that are now viable targets.

    Having said that I don't necessarily buy the idea that the Tories will easily reinvent themselves in opposition and be back in after one term if they do lose the next GE (or get locked out by Lab+SNP+LDs) as I made the mistake of thinking that was possible for Labour after 2010 (as did the National party in New Zealand after 2017 and also Scottish Labour after 2007).
    At this stage I'd say it's pretty much 50/50 whether the Conservatives win the next election.
  • Options
    Fysics_TeacherFysics_Teacher Posts: 6,060

    I’ve just stopped for my first beer. I somehow forgot to buy any on my way out of Banyuls this morning, so I’ve worked up quite a thirst. I’m in a little town called Port Verdres, which neighbours Collioures (where I intend to have lunch at Casa Leon!).

    The weather today is the worst so far: the sky is totally overcast and it isn’t remotely warm. I’m rather pleased about this as I caught a bit too much sun while cooled by the strong wind yesterday and I need a day in the shade.

    I was delighted to discover this morning on checking out that my delicious dinner last night only cost me €29. I spent nearly that on beer. The lady on reception went through my bill with me and tilted her head slightly as she checked the number of beers I’d had; I looked at her deadly serious and said “En vacances je bois comme un trou” (on holiday I drink like a hole). She laughed quite hard.

    Great phrase!
    I love French idiom. I’m not sure how I’ll be able to use my favourite one - il a le cul bordé de nouilles (he has an arse surrounded by noodles) which somehow means he is very lucky.
    English idioms can be pretty obscure as well:
    “I’ll go the the foot of our stairs!” (An expression of surprise).
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    turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 15,148

    @turbotubbs just been out for a short run, it is glorious today in London. Lovely 17 degrees.

    Sadly been suffering from shin splints, got the new shoes fitted with extra support, so increasing the mileage again slowly.

    Take it steady and don't expect an instant cure. Good luck with it.
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    TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,387
    nico679 said:

    Still quite a variation in the run off polls from 55 to 45 to Macron to 52.5 v 47.5.

    Macron has indicated that he’s willing to make some changes to his pension reforms in an effort to shore up more left wing support .

    So will be interesting to see what these are and what effect they might have on the polls.

    If that were the difference between 67.5 and 65, we'd call it MOE. We should do the same here, it's just that the small margin makes a bigger difference.
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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,598
    It appears Blunt "has previous" when it comes to defending men convicted of sexual offences:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leeds-44140747
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    ApplicantApplicant Posts: 3,379
    MISTY said:

    I don't see why the tories are not far more concerned about the cost of living crisis than they are.

    Perhaps they are basking in the praise lavished on them in the media over Ukraine. Out there in the country, I suspect the view is very different. People are ready to listen to labour on wealth taxes.

    I would hope that Labour would have some new ideas that would actually help.
  • Options

    @turbotubbs just been out for a short run, it is glorious today in London. Lovely 17 degrees.

    Sadly been suffering from shin splints, got the new shoes fitted with extra support, so increasing the mileage again slowly.

    Take it steady and don't expect an instant cure. Good luck with it.
    Yes I am well aware :(

    Been running injury free for four years and then bam :(

    If you have any advice please let me know. I am stretching and doing strengthening in addition to my normal weight lifting.

    Hope you are keeping well. Sending my best wishes.
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    CoL will lose the Red Wall for good. Then the Tories can’t win a majority
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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,598

    I’ve just stopped for my first beer. I somehow forgot to buy any on my way out of Banyuls this morning, so I’ve worked up quite a thirst. I’m in a little town called Port Verdres, which neighbours Collioures (where I intend to have lunch at Casa Leon!).

    The weather today is the worst so far: the sky is totally overcast and it isn’t remotely warm. I’m rather pleased about this as I caught a bit too much sun while cooled by the strong wind yesterday and I need a day in the shade.

    I was delighted to discover this morning on checking out that my delicious dinner last night only cost me €29. I spent nearly that on beer. The lady on reception went through my bill with me and tilted her head slightly as she checked the number of beers I’d had; I looked at her deadly serious and said “En vacances je bois comme un trou” (on holiday I drink like a hole). She laughed quite hard.

    Great phrase!
    I love French idiom. I’m not sure how I’ll be able to use my favourite one - il a le cul bordé de nouilles (he has an arse surrounded by noodles) which somehow means he is very lucky.
    l'esprit d'escalier is my favourite...
  • Options

    When Blunt has a pop at the criminal justice system by effectively saying "My friend isn't a wrong 'un, the system has got this wrong", it is worth bearing in mind that he does have the inside track: from May 2010 to September 2012 he was the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Prisons and Youth Justice.

    So if the system is broken, Crispin - who should we blame? You must know.

    I suspect the voters of Reigate will have a different choice of Conservative candidate by 2024.

    Under-Secretary of State for Prisons and Youth Justice reads like a very important role.
    Heathener said:

    1st.

    This is all so reminiscent of 1992-7. The Conservative Party have pressed the self-destruct button. Like then, the PM has lost control of his MPs and they are in demob happy mode: shooting off their mouths no matter how inappropriate.

    Dirty sleazy tories. Gonna get a kickin'.

    It feels very different.

    The LOTO is no Blair (which may not be a bad thing). The Major Administration lost control of the media, which is unheard of for the Conservative Party. Johnson still has most newspapers, the Tories are conducting a great online ground offensive and they have BBC editorial control, something they have never had before. Labour have completely lost Scotland and the LDs are much weakened which means there is no hope for a non-Conservative Government without unacceptable conditions set by the SNP.

    I repeat it is wholly different, and Johnson still has the whip hand. Whether he will the other side of economic Armageddon is anyone's guess.
    "and they have BBC editorial control" - do you really believe this?

    I think the BBC tries really hard to be balanced. This usually means the more extreme someone views are the more they are likely to think the BBC is biased because it does not represent their views. Can you give some examples of the editorial control? And please not the 'Johnson at the cenotaph mistake'.

    I am no fan of the BBC. I think its far too metropolitan elite, and has no concept of the population out of the bigger cities. You only need watch Countryfile to see this. You will learn more in 5 minutes of Clarksons Farm than you will in a year of Countryfile. But even with this, I think they try damn hard to be as balanced as possible, especially in terms of the political parties.
    What do you think was the BBC's motivation to edit out (clumsily) a reference to Brexit in this piece?

    https://twitter.com/PhantomPower14/status/1513092843803402246?s=20&t=Zn21Yk2vHhK6jgATF2iOYw
    Don't mention the war!
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    IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    Cyclefree said:



    IshmaelZ said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Blunt has deleted his tweet and statement.

    Now he needs to retract them.

    This is what he said - https://twitter.com/soniasodha/status/1513648564689375238?s=21&t=A7goiI85ZLJ4xW-JnAbjwA.

    To my mind he needs to make it absolutely clear that he does not think that sexual abuse of a boy is " minor on any scale". It is an appalling thing to say.
    He said that *one particular incident* of the sexual abuse of a boy was minor on any scale. That is a completely different statement from your version of it. Let's not throw logic out of the window, shall we, no matter how indignant we are?
    I didn't give my version of it. I attached the copy of exactly what he wrote.
    But you glossed it wrong. A specific instance of sexual abuse of a boy is a minor event" is a completely different statement from "sexual abuse of a boy is a minor event"

    And while you are there what in God's name do you mean by "What makes his comment even worse is that this was sexual abuse of a boy." Really? Really really? Less serious if 15 y.o. girl was victim? I'd be doing a Blunt about that if it was me.
  • Options
    darkagedarkage Posts: 4,796
    edited April 2022
    Pagan2 said:

    darkage said:

    Khan has been completely ruined by this conviction, it is very bad. If you want to know the hell that people convicted of child sex offences go through, then look at some of the discussions on 'unlock'. Their lives are barely worth living. This state of affairs is certainly not civilisation marching forward to a state of enlightenment.

    Before you shed too many tears for the lives of convicted child abusers remember the living hell many of their victims continue to live with for the rest of their lives. The difference is the child abuser had a choice to do it or not. The victim not so much. The saying "you made your bed..." is apposite here
    I am not defending these people. But the approach to this topic is completely irrational, and actually it has become impossible to even discuss it given the level of fervour. Amongst the general chorus of condemnation and panic, I have just read comments here, which celebrate child sexual abuse (where it is an adult female who is the perpetrator), which pass by unnoticed. Perhaps this was actually part of the point Blunt was making, it is because Khan is male that his fate has been what it is.
  • Options
    OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,088

    Unemployed 1,292,000
    Job vacancies 1,288,000

    The effect on pay rises and business investment will be interesting.

    And despite the best employment situation since anyone can remember there will be endless thousands rushing off to get themselves £50k in debt doing totally unsuitable 'university' courses.

    Despite all the negatvity on here about the economic position, the employment situation is this Country is remarkable.
    Its a good time to be skilled working class northerner.

    Not so good to be a young graduate in the south.
    Latest wage growth data don't fully bear that out. A selection of sectors below.
    Manufacturing: 1.9%
    Of which engineering: 1.5%
    Construction: 5.8%
    Accommodation/food services: 14.1%
    Finance/insurance: 12.2%
    Professional/scientific/technical 9.9%.
    Best wage growth in 'unskilled' services occupation, with graduate heave services sectors doing well and 'skilled' manual sectors lagging.
    What you really don't want to be is a public sector worker:
    Public administration: 1.4%
    Education: 1.0%.
    (ONS data on average weekly earnings incl bonuses, y/y growth rates, Feb 2022).
    Merely my anecdote (although backed up by the PMIs) but pay is increasing rapidly in manufacturing and construction currently.

    As many people will be getting their annual pay rise in April we should see any effect come through in the next few months.
    Well fingers crossed. The way the cost of living is going up we all need a pay rise.
  • Options
    CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,183
    edited April 2022
    IshmaelZ said:

    Cyclefree said:



    IshmaelZ said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Blunt has deleted his tweet and statement.

    Now he needs to retract them.

    This is what he said - https://twitter.com/soniasodha/status/1513648564689375238?s=21&t=A7goiI85ZLJ4xW-JnAbjwA.

    To my mind he needs to make it absolutely clear that he does not think that sexual abuse of a boy is " minor on any scale". It is an appalling thing to say.
    He said that *one particular incident* of the sexual abuse of a boy was minor on any scale. That is a completely different statement from your version of it. Let's not throw logic out of the window, shall we, no matter how indignant we are?
    I didn't give my version of it. I attached the copy of exactly what he wrote.
    But you glossed it wrong. A specific instance of sexual abuse of a boy is a minor event" is a completely different statement from "sexual abuse of a boy is a minor event"

    And while you are there what in God's name do you mean by "What makes his comment even worse is that this was sexual abuse of a boy." Really? Really really? Less serious if 15 y.o. girl was victim? I'd be doing a Blunt about that if it was me.
    Read the whole paragraph.

    Here you go.

    "What makes his comment even worse is that this was sexual abuse of a boy. In the concern about sexual violence perpetrated on women and girls, sexual abuse of boys risks being forgotten and not taken as seriously as it should be. It is hard for victims to speak up and they often feel shame precisely because it is not given the publicity and concern it should receive. And this MP has just reinforced all this with his revoltingly casual and cruel dismissal of a serious crime and his total indifference to the victim."

    I have been very forceful on here about sexual violence against girls. But we must not forget that boys suffer it too. And that is why I wrote the above paragraph. Because by dismissing it in the way that he did Blunt risked reinforcing a view that somehow it is not as harmful or as important as violence against girls.

  • Options
    StockyStocky Posts: 9,718
    edited April 2022
    darkage said:

    Pagan2 said:

    darkage said:

    Khan has been completely ruined by this conviction, it is very bad. If you want to know the hell that people convicted of child sex offences go through, then look at some of the discussions on 'unlock'. Their lives are barely worth living. This state of affairs is certainly not civilisation marching forward to a state of enlightenment.

    Before you shed too many tears for the lives of convicted child abusers remember the living hell many of their victims continue to live with for the rest of their lives. The difference is the child abuser had a choice to do it or not. The victim not so much. The saying "you made your bed..." is apposite here
    I am not defending these people. But the approach to this topic is completely irrational, and actually it has become impossible to even discuss it given the level of fervour. Amongst the general chorus of condemnation and panic, I have just read comments here, which celebrate child sexual abuse (where it is an adult female who is the perpetrator), which pass by unnoticed. Perhaps this was actually part of the point Blunt was making, it is because Khan is male, gay and muslim, that his fate has been what it is.
    And an MP. And a Tory MP.

    Did he do it? I don't know. What was the evidence? Did the police proceed on the basis of evidence or because they thought a jury would convict regardless because of the things you mention?
  • Options
    algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 10,504
    MISTY said:

    I don't see why the tories are not far more concerned about the cost of living crisis than they are.

    Perhaps they are basking in the praise lavished on them in the media over Ukraine. Out there in the country, I suspect the view is very different. People are ready to listen to labour on wealth taxes.

    Because it is real and there is startlingly little they can do about it. Lots of money is chasing scarcer goods of all sorts, which tends to lower the value of money. Dishing out greater amounts of money is difficult because the state is already maxed out on every possible measure AND ineffective because it lowers the value of money further.

    So humming the songs of Pooh and talking about something else is the best answer for the Tories.

    The best answer for Labour is to remember that all parties can lose the next election and to try to ensure that by a margin the Tories deserve to lose it more than Labour do.

    if they have a real 'New Deal' up their sleeve (and I hope they have) they will be well advised to reveal it after victory not before. It will be costly and tricky.

    Until then they should promise a careful review of every single issue under the sun.
  • Options
    algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 10,504

    Unemployed 1,292,000
    Job vacancies 1,288,000

    The effect on pay rises and business investment will be interesting.

    And despite the best employment situation since anyone can remember there will be endless thousands rushing off to get themselves £50k in debt doing totally unsuitable 'university' courses.

    Despite all the negatvity on here about the economic position, the employment situation is this Country is remarkable.
    Its a good time to be skilled working class northerner.

    Not so good to be a young graduate in the south.
    Latest wage growth data don't fully bear that out. A selection of sectors below.
    Manufacturing: 1.9%
    Of which engineering: 1.5%
    Construction: 5.8%
    Accommodation/food services: 14.1%
    Finance/insurance: 12.2%
    Professional/scientific/technical 9.9%.
    Best wage growth in 'unskilled' services occupation, with graduate heave services sectors doing well and 'skilled' manual sectors lagging.
    What you really don't want to be is a public sector worker:
    Public administration: 1.4%
    Education: 1.0%.
    (ONS data on average weekly earnings incl bonuses, y/y growth rates, Feb 2022).
    Merely my anecdote (although backed up by the PMIs) but pay is increasing rapidly in manufacturing and construction currently.

    As many people will be getting their annual pay rise in April we should see any effect come through in the next few months.
    Well fingers crossed. The way the cost of living is going up we all need a pay rise.
    If a cost of living crisis could be dealt with by pay rises we would not need any further discussion and the Tories would stay in government for ever by opening the taps. The cost of living crisis is caused by already too much money chasing too few goods. More money chasing the same goods does not assist.

  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,980
    algarkirk said:

    MISTY said:

    I don't see why the tories are not far more concerned about the cost of living crisis than they are.

    Perhaps they are basking in the praise lavished on them in the media over Ukraine. Out there in the country, I suspect the view is very different. People are ready to listen to labour on wealth taxes.

    Because it is real and there is startlingly little they can do about it. Lots of money is chasing scarcer goods of all sorts, which tends to lower the value of money. Dishing out greater amounts of money is difficult because the state is already maxed out on every possible measure AND ineffective because it lowers the value of money further.

    So humming the songs of Pooh and talking about something else is the best answer for the Tories.

    The best answer for Labour is to remember that all parties can lose the next election and to try to ensure that by a margin the Tories deserve to lose it more than Labour do.

    if they have a real 'New Deal' up their sleeve (and I hope they have) they will be well advised to reveal it after victory not before. It will be costly and tricky.

    Until then they should promise a careful review of every single issue under the sun.
    Of course in the 1970s when inflation was sky high we had 3 changes of government within 10 years
  • Options
    TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 40,005
    MattW said:

    boulay said:

    Truss is just a fag paper away from hiring Annie Leibowitz to do a special on her (or more likely trying to get it done on the public's dollar).


    She’s a white bonnet away from full handmaid’s tale….


    What depressing kneejerk reactions. Truss was styled by the fashion lecturer who put on the exhibition:

    Sophie photographed Elizabeth in her constituency, close to where she grew up and began her photography. The all-female team shot on location at Hockwold Hall, which also has a direct link to the suffragettes. Alongside photographing, Sophie also styled Elizabeth, using clothing from local graduate designers and stores. The final portrait features a dress created by Norwich University of the Arts graduate Kate Illingsworth.
    https://www.wsc.ac.uk/about-the-college/news/4819-college-lecturer-photographs-liz-truss-for-209-women-initiative
    There are some enthusiastic Tory fluffers on here but for day in, day out assiduous defence of small and large C conservatism, you are the nonpareil. I salute you.
  • Options
    TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 40,005
    I may be mistaken but piteous grovelling is not usually the next stage after threatening to sue the bollocks off an institution is it?


  • Options
    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,279
    edited April 2022
    algarkirk said:

    Unemployed 1,292,000
    Job vacancies 1,288,000

    The effect on pay rises and business investment will be interesting.

    And despite the best employment situation since anyone can remember there will be endless thousands rushing off to get themselves £50k in debt doing totally unsuitable 'university' courses.

    Despite all the negatvity on here about the economic position, the employment situation is this Country is remarkable.
    Its a good time to be skilled working class northerner.

    Not so good to be a young graduate in the south.
    Latest wage growth data don't fully bear that out. A selection of sectors below.
    Manufacturing: 1.9%
    Of which engineering: 1.5%
    Construction: 5.8%
    Accommodation/food services: 14.1%
    Finance/insurance: 12.2%
    Professional/scientific/technical 9.9%.
    Best wage growth in 'unskilled' services occupation, with graduate heave services sectors doing well and 'skilled' manual sectors lagging.
    What you really don't want to be is a public sector worker:
    Public administration: 1.4%
    Education: 1.0%.
    (ONS data on average weekly earnings incl bonuses, y/y growth rates, Feb 2022).
    Merely my anecdote (although backed up by the PMIs) but pay is increasing rapidly in manufacturing and construction currently.

    As many people will be getting their annual pay rise in April we should see any effect come through in the next few months.
    Well fingers crossed. The way the cost of living is going up we all need a pay rise.
    If a cost of living crisis could be dealt with by pay rises we would not need any further discussion and the Tories would stay in government for ever by opening the taps. The cost of living crisis is caused by already too much money chasing too few goods. More money chasing the same goods does not assist.

    For goodness sake don't tell @BartholomewRoberts. Not a few months ago he was celebrating price rises and wage rises and price rises and wage rises...
  • Options

    I may be mistaken but piteous grovelling is not usually the next stage after threatening to sue the bollocks off an institution is it?


    Elon has nothing to do with Twitter lol
  • Options
    ApplicantApplicant Posts: 3,379

    I may be mistaken but piteous grovelling is not usually the next stage after threatening to sue the bollocks off an institution is it?


    Elon has nothing to do with Twitter lol
    Indeed. He's only the biggest shareholder.
  • Options
    OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,088
    algarkirk said:

    Unemployed 1,292,000
    Job vacancies 1,288,000

    The effect on pay rises and business investment will be interesting.

    And despite the best employment situation since anyone can remember there will be endless thousands rushing off to get themselves £50k in debt doing totally unsuitable 'university' courses.

    Despite all the negatvity on here about the economic position, the employment situation is this Country is remarkable.
    Its a good time to be skilled working class northerner.

    Not so good to be a young graduate in the south.
    Latest wage growth data don't fully bear that out. A selection of sectors below.
    Manufacturing: 1.9%
    Of which engineering: 1.5%
    Construction: 5.8%
    Accommodation/food services: 14.1%
    Finance/insurance: 12.2%
    Professional/scientific/technical 9.9%.
    Best wage growth in 'unskilled' services occupation, with graduate heave services sectors doing well and 'skilled' manual sectors lagging.
    What you really don't want to be is a public sector worker:
    Public administration: 1.4%
    Education: 1.0%.
    (ONS data on average weekly earnings incl bonuses, y/y growth rates, Feb 2022).
    Merely my anecdote (although backed up by the PMIs) but pay is increasing rapidly in manufacturing and construction currently.

    As many people will be getting their annual pay rise in April we should see any effect come through in the next few months.
    Well fingers crossed. The way the cost of living is going up we all need a pay rise.
    If a cost of living crisis could be dealt with by pay rises we would not need any further discussion and the Tories would stay in government for ever by opening the taps. The cost of living crisis is caused by already too much money chasing too few goods. More money chasing the same goods does not assist.

    If accompanied by an increase in productivity then it is affordable (this is why we get paid more than 14th century peasants without it just pushing up the price of turnips).
    I plan to request a 10% pay rise accompanied by a promise to stay off PB.com and stop doing wordle.
  • Options
    Applicant said:

    I may be mistaken but piteous grovelling is not usually the next stage after threatening to sue the bollocks off an institution is it?


    Elon has nothing to do with Twitter lol
    Indeed. He's only the biggest shareholder.
    It doesn't mean he has any impact on these decisions
  • Options
    TOPPING said:

    algarkirk said:

    Unemployed 1,292,000
    Job vacancies 1,288,000

    The effect on pay rises and business investment will be interesting.

    And despite the best employment situation since anyone can remember there will be endless thousands rushing off to get themselves £50k in debt doing totally unsuitable 'university' courses.

    Despite all the negatvity on here about the economic position, the employment situation is this Country is remarkable.
    Its a good time to be skilled working class northerner.

    Not so good to be a young graduate in the south.
    Latest wage growth data don't fully bear that out. A selection of sectors below.
    Manufacturing: 1.9%
    Of which engineering: 1.5%
    Construction: 5.8%
    Accommodation/food services: 14.1%
    Finance/insurance: 12.2%
    Professional/scientific/technical 9.9%.
    Best wage growth in 'unskilled' services occupation, with graduate heave services sectors doing well and 'skilled' manual sectors lagging.
    What you really don't want to be is a public sector worker:
    Public administration: 1.4%
    Education: 1.0%.
    (ONS data on average weekly earnings incl bonuses, y/y growth rates, Feb 2022).
    Merely my anecdote (although backed up by the PMIs) but pay is increasing rapidly in manufacturing and construction currently.

    As many people will be getting their annual pay rise in April we should see any effect come through in the next few months.
    Well fingers crossed. The way the cost of living is going up we all need a pay rise.
    If a cost of living crisis could be dealt with by pay rises we would not need any further discussion and the Tories would stay in government for ever by opening the taps. The cost of living crisis is caused by already too much money chasing too few goods. More money chasing the same goods does not assist.

    For goodness sake don't tell @BartholomewRoberts. Not a few months ago he was celebrating price rises and wage rises and price rises and wage rises...
    He was saying this was the roaring twenties.
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    NerysHughesNerysHughes Posts: 3,347
    algarkirk said:

    Stocky said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    eek said:

    There are of course two issues here - is Blunt entitled to express his opinion, and is it sensible? The answer to the first is surely yes, and as I said yesterday I give him some credit for expressing it when it was obviously politically unwise. The answer to the second looks a solid no, for the reasons that Cyclefree sets out with her usual cogency.

    Should the Conservative Party take action against him? It depends whether his "clarification" expected today makes clear that he is not trivialising statutory rape of a child by a much older man (I believe that the police usually look the other way when a 16-year-old sleeps with a 15-year-old). If he were to confirm that he meant that it's no big deal, then I think he has no place in a serious party. If he clarifies that the offence is extremely serious and he is merely expressing incredulity that his friend was guilty of it, then I think that's not a political issue but a matter of judgment, and if MPs were thrown out of their parties for mistakes of judgment then, well...

    It's more than a matter of judgment - it's a fundamental attack on our Jury system - totally ignoring the (horrendous) crime an MP shouldn't be calling the decision of a Jury into doubt because he doesn't like the end result.

    And while he said he attended some of the case - as he didn't attend all of it he really isn't in a position to pass comment on the bits he didn't hear.
    Jurors are on average corruptible intimidatable and dim, and I don't think there is any duty on anybody not to attack the system in general, or isolated errors in particular. They happen. Not that I think there was one in this case, but someone claiming there was is not something to bloviate unduly about
    It must be terrifying to be innocent and have your future and reputation (and safety) in the hands of jurors. I'm not saying this MP guy is innocent - I've not followed the case and don't know the specifics of what he is charged with. But as I understand it the police (and CPS) proceed with a case on the basis that there is a decent chance of conviction. This means that actual evidence is secondary.

    I'm sure there are cases (maybe not this one) where the police and CPS think that a jury may convict because of the type of offence (believe the accuser) with no other evidence whatsoever (again - I'm not referring to this case) because they think that a jury will act out of prejudice given the nature of the charge and the notoriety of the accused.

    This is worrying if true. Maybe it isn't.
    I don't think you're right. The CPS do decide whether to prosecute on the basis of whether there is a decent chance of conviction, yes. But that depends on the quality of the evidence, so when you say the actual evidence is secondary, that's wrong.
    And on your last point, if there is no solid evidence the judge will direct the jury to acquit, regardless of any prejudice they hold.
    Have a look at the Roger Kearney murder conviction. The CPS decided to prosecute on no evidence other than he was having an affair with the murder victim and he was found guilty. He cannot appeal his conviction as there is no prosecution evidence to appeal against. His wife even gave him a full alibi for the night of the murder, yet he has spent the last 12 years in Prison. There are dozens of similar murder convictions based on no or very little evidence.

    https://www.dailyecho.co.uk/news/8202808.lawyer-gives-jury-a-list-detailing-why-they-have-to-find-kearney-not-guilty/

    The police are often just after a conviction, they are not particularly worried about whether the person is guilty or not
    I don't know this case, but the assertion that "he cannot appeal as there is no prosecution evidence to appeal against" is just factually wrong.

    If this were the case then the judge must have made a ruling at the close of the prosecution case that there WAS a case to answer and must give reasons in open court. This judgement can be appealed.

    A cursory Google shows that this case was appealed, that the single judge said no, that the appellant didn't take it to an oral hearing for leave to appeal, and the the CCRC has rejected the case.

    In this case he was found guilty for three reasons.

    1. He was having an affair with the victim
    2. There was a very poor CCTV image of a car that may have been Kearneys in an area and at a time the murder may have happened. When I say poor it was just an outline, no registration, colour or anything else could be seen.
    3. CCTV images showed Kearney acting "strange" when he went to work as a postman in the hours after the murder. The definition of acting strange was coming in a different entrance and running back to his car to get his glasses.

    That is it, how do you appeal that? The CCRC require you to produce new evidence to contradict what you were found guilty on.

    As mentioned there was no forensic evidence against him. Below the victims body in the boot of her car there was a thumb print in blood on a tesco bag which was not hers or Kearneys. Unfortunately the police have thrown this evidence away.

    Kearney will never admit his guilt, hence he will spend the rest of his life in prison.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,466

    President Vladimir V. Putin of Russia said on Tuesday that the “main goal” of the war in Ukraine was “to help people” in the country’s east, the latest sign that Russia is focused on the battle for the Donbas region as the next stage of the war.

    Mr. Putin, visiting a spaceport in the Russian Far East along with President Aleksandr G. Lukashenko of Belarus, his close ally, told workers at the facility in televised remarks that “there is no doubt” that the war will be successful.

    NY Times blog

    As justification for genocide, 'they made me do it' is a bit thin.

    – “the main goal is to help people”
    – “we were forced to do it”
    – “we couldn’t put up with it any longer”
    – “a clash was inevitable”
    – “it was just a matter of time”
    – “we didn’t have a choice, this was the right thing to do”

    https://twitter.com/maxseddon/status/1513827494125883395

  • Options

    I may be mistaken but piteous grovelling is not usually the next stage after threatening to sue the bollocks off an institution is it?


    Some of the reactions on Twitter have been inspired. Endless screenshots not just of him on RT but adverts for his RT show. "But that was produced by another company" he protests. Yes, to be broadcast on RT.

    Suspect the move to pleading is because he has instructed someone like Carter-Fuck who have advised that he may be wasting his money.
  • Options
    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,179
    Nigelb said:

    President Vladimir V. Putin of Russia said on Tuesday that the “main goal” of the war in Ukraine was “to help people” in the country’s east, the latest sign that Russia is focused on the battle for the Donbas region as the next stage of the war.

    Mr. Putin, visiting a spaceport in the Russian Far East along with President Aleksandr G. Lukashenko of Belarus, his close ally, told workers at the facility in televised remarks that “there is no doubt” that the war will be successful.

    NY Times blog

    As justification for genocide, 'they made me do it' is a bit thin.

    – “the main goal is to help people”
    – “we were forced to do it”
    – “we couldn’t put up with it any longer”
    – “a clash was inevitable”
    – “it was just a matter of time”
    – “we didn’t have a choice, this was the right thing to do”

    https://twitter.com/maxseddon/status/1513827494125883395

    Wont wash with the Hague judges, if by some good fortune we get the bastard there.
  • Options
    YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 7,172
    edited April 2022
    algarkirk said:



    SNIP

    if they have a real 'New Deal' up their sleeve (and I hope they have) they will be well advised to reveal it after victory not before. It will be costly and tricky.

    Until then they should promise a careful review of every single issue under the sun.

    Then the problems really start when the Labour-led Coalition tries to enact something "costly and tricky".

    My guess is you need a single party Government with a minimum majority of ~15 to do anything "costly and tricky".
  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,052

    I may be mistaken but piteous grovelling is not usually the next stage after threatening to sue the bollocks off an institution is it?


    Surely if he wants his blue check removed he only has to ask?
  • Options
    mwadamsmwadams Posts: 3,137

    I may be mistaken but piteous grovelling is not usually the next stage after threatening to sue the bollocks off an institution is it?


    Surely if he wants his blue check removed he only has to ask?
    I can certainly understand why he would want to obscure the fact that he is *the* George Galloway.
  • Options
    FarooqFarooq Posts: 10,775

    SKS Approval Rating is a massive drag on Labour

    Redfield & Wilton Strategies
    @RedfieldWilton
    ·
    16h
    Keir Starmer Approval Rating (10 Apr):

    Approve: 27% (-4)
    Disapprove: 32% (+1)
    Net: -5% (-5)

    Changes +/- 3 Apr

    Awaiting Corbyn's approval ratings with eager anticipation
  • Options
    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,179
    Paul Brand
    @PaulBrandITV
    ·
    18m
    The
    @LibDems
    respond:

    “The police have now completely shredded Johnson’s claims that no laws were broken. He cannot be trusted and cannot continue as Prime Minister. No other leader in any other organisation would be allowed to continue after law-breaking on this scale.”
  • Options
    algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 10,504

    algarkirk said:

    Unemployed 1,292,000
    Job vacancies 1,288,000

    The effect on pay rises and business investment will be interesting.

    And despite the best employment situation since anyone can remember there will be endless thousands rushing off to get themselves £50k in debt doing totally unsuitable 'university' courses.

    Despite all the negatvity on here about the economic position, the employment situation is this Country is remarkable.
    Its a good time to be skilled working class northerner.

    Not so good to be a young graduate in the south.
    Latest wage growth data don't fully bear that out. A selection of sectors below.
    Manufacturing: 1.9%
    Of which engineering: 1.5%
    Construction: 5.8%
    Accommodation/food services: 14.1%
    Finance/insurance: 12.2%
    Professional/scientific/technical 9.9%.
    Best wage growth in 'unskilled' services occupation, with graduate heave services sectors doing well and 'skilled' manual sectors lagging.
    What you really don't want to be is a public sector worker:
    Public administration: 1.4%
    Education: 1.0%.
    (ONS data on average weekly earnings incl bonuses, y/y growth rates, Feb 2022).
    Merely my anecdote (although backed up by the PMIs) but pay is increasing rapidly in manufacturing and construction currently.

    As many people will be getting their annual pay rise in April we should see any effect come through in the next few months.
    Well fingers crossed. The way the cost of living is going up we all need a pay rise.
    If a cost of living crisis could be dealt with by pay rises we would not need any further discussion and the Tories would stay in government for ever by opening the taps. The cost of living crisis is caused by already too much money chasing too few goods. More money chasing the same goods does not assist.

    If accompanied by an increase in productivity then it is affordable (this is why we get paid more than 14th century peasants without it just pushing up the price of turnips).
    I plan to request a 10% pay rise accompanied by a promise to stay off PB.com and stop doing wordle.
    Sadly not so simple. Huge numbers of jobs have no measurable, or indeed real, means of increasing productivity. GPs, building surveyors, compliance officers, social workers, most teachers, MPs may be examples. The 10% extra through productivity (the whole idea has an early 1960s feel, National Productivity Year was announced in 1962, with a commemorative stamp) will be matched by the 10% extra needed for the others with more fixed productivity to catch up. And still more cash will be chasing scarcer goods.

    Of course your point about economic history since the Black Death is also true. But it is not a quick fix silver bullet.

    I suspect we are also hampered by the growth of both non-jobs (see David Graeber for details) and a larger and larger chuck of GDP being expensive but not very joy giving - prisons, tax experts, HMRC, security precautions, compliance etc. It's a shame Graeber has died because he could make a good book out of it.

This discussion has been closed.