Possibly PM Wallace or Javid or Truss by the end of the summer if true.
Though depends on how bad the polling and local election losses turn out to be for the Tories as to whether Johnson and Sunak survive
Direct question. The Prime Minister deliberately mislead the House. Repeatedly.
Do you think he should follow the Ministerial Code and resign?
Blair did not resign after misleading the House over WMD.
Whataboutery. Two wrongs don't make a right.
Your party leader openly and deliberately lied to parliament on a number of occasions. Should he now resign?
Of course he should and I think it is when not if now.
But your former party set this bar pretty low and HYUFD is right. Blair, at best misled Parliament, and didn’t have the principle to resign.
It’s symptomatic of modern politics I’m afraid. There is little honour across the board. Offences one party deems as resigning matters the other just dismisses.
Society gets the politicians we deserve. It’s been a grim path from Blair to Johnson?
I see your Blair and I'll raise you Eden (over Suez).
Possibly PM Wallace or Javid or Truss by the end of the summer if true.
Though depends on how bad the polling and local election losses turn out to be for the Tories as to whether Johnson and Sunak survive
Direct question. The Prime Minister deliberately mislead the House. Repeatedly.
Do you think he should follow the Ministerial Code and resign?
Blair did not resign after misleading the House over WMD.
Thatcher/Belgrano?
What did she mislead the house about?
Absolutely nothing. The Belgrano was part of a pincer movement that was a threat to the task force. The decision to sink was a tough one but militarily correct. The loss of life was exacerbated by the supporting Argentine vessels fleeing the scene.
I never understood the fuss about the Belgrano. Wars are not won by playing nice.
If Sunak is smarting over No. 10 briefings then he is perfectly positioned to get his revenge whilst also (possibly) retrieving enough credibility for a return to the cabinet at some point should he decide to continue in politics.
Boris has been an excellent PM in the round, he has handled the biggest issues (Ukraine, Covid, Brexit) extremely well.
But lawmakers can not be lawbreakers.
As an analogy, its like an excellent employee who hits all the KPIs who goes on a bender and attacks a colleague - it is gross misconduct, they have to go, even if they've been hitting their KPIs.
"extremely well" lol. He is a buffoon that leaves a trail of chaos in his wake and is totally unfit for office in every way. I'll give him some credit for his support of Ukraine, but it is no more than any other PM of the last 100 years would have done.
I'm glad you're willing, begrudgingly, to acknowledge the support for Ukraine but that's not all.
Got a Brexit deal through Parliament which his predecessor couldn't? ✅ First country in the world to roll out vaccines? ✅ First country in Europe to lift lockdown? ✅ [Thanks to pressure from MPs] didn't put the country into an unnecessary lockdown over Christmas/New Year (unlike Scotland, Wales, NI and rest of Europe)? ✅ Followed his own laws? ❌
Plenty of ticks in his column. The red X is gross misconduct though, he has to go regardless of how many credits there are in his column.
Possibly PM Wallace or Javid or Truss by the end of the summer if true.
Though depends on how bad the polling and local election losses turn out to be for the Tories as to whether Johnson and Sunak survive
Direct question. The Prime Minister deliberately mislead the House. Repeatedly.
Do you think he should follow the Ministerial Code and resign?
Blair did not resign after misleading the House over WMD.
Whataboutery. Two wrongs don't make a right.
Your party leader openly and deliberately lied to parliament on a number of occasions. Should he now resign?
Of course he should and I think it is when not if now.
But your former party set this bar pretty low and HYUFD is right. Blair, at best misled Parliament, and didn’t have the principle to resign.
It’s symptomatic of modern politics I’m afraid. There is little honour across the board. Offences one party deems as resigning matters the other just dismisses.
Society gets the politicians we deserve. It’s been a grim path from Blair to Johnson?
I see your Blair and I'll raise you Eden (over Suez).
Cements Rishi Sunak's fall from grace as possibly one of the swiftest ever. The door was slightly ajar and now it is firmly shut forever. Given how rich he is why would he bother to carry on? Move to California and live on his and his wife's millions seems much more preferable!
Maybe the FPN will mean he can't go back to the US? They are pretty tough on this area, as I understand it.
An FPN is not a conviction it is the equivalent of a parking ticket or speeding ticket, I don't think they're tough at all on this area are they?
Politically its very different, but the US aren't involved in the politics of it.
You can get an FPN for speeding. A parking penalty is not an FPN. It’s a lesser thing.
Boris has been an excellent PM in the round, he has handled the biggest issues (Ukraine, Covid, Brexit) extremely well.
But lawmakers can not be lawbreakers.
As an analogy, its like an excellent employee who hits all the KPIs who goes on a bender and attacks a colleague - it is gross misconduct, they have to go, even if they've been hitting their KPIs.
I think that was my example. Employee is highly regarded, beats all KPIs at appraisal time then accidently punches the boss at a work dinner. Doesn't matter how highly you perform you're getting the sack and you're out the door with no notice and not even your bus fare home.
Possibly PM Wallace or Javid or Truss by the end of the summer if true.
Though depends on how bad the polling and local election losses turn out to be for the Tories as to whether Johnson and Sunak survive
Direct question. The Prime Minister deliberately mislead the House. Repeatedly.
Do you think he should follow the Ministerial Code and resign?
Blair did not resign after misleading the House over WMD.
Whataboutery. Two wrongs don't make a right.
Your party leader openly and deliberately lied to parliament on a number of occasions. Should he now resign?
Of course he should and I think it is when not if now.
But your former party set this bar pretty low and HYUFD is right. Blair, at best misled Parliament, and didn’t have the principle to resign.
It’s symptomatic of modern politics I’m afraid. There is little honour across the board. Offences one party deems as resigning matters the other just dismisses.
Society gets the politicians we deserve. It’s been a grim path from Blair to Johnson?
I see your Blair and I'll raise you Eden (over Suez).
The more they move there, the more it isn't in Ukraine.
And the more likely that Finland (and Sweden) join NATO.
True, though if Finland and Sweden make an application to join NATO and Russia then attacks Finland and Sweden before their NATO membership is confirmed, that would still not technically be an attack on a NATO member state
If Finland and Sweden apply whilst Russia is moving troops up to the border, Putin would discover what the "fast track" channel is for.
Fuck technicalities, we wheel out the good stuff....
Would the same argument not apply to a speeding ticket?
C'mon. Context, innit? We weren't all shut in our houses to stop us speeding.
I don't think that's WIlliam's point.
If you accept Ian Dunt's argument, then speeding fines would result in you leaving office.
But you can disagree and still want Boris and/or Sunak to leave.
I don't give a shit about the legal technicalities. They don't matter. They locked us down, then ignored the rules themselves. That's it.
If it were a speeding fine it would be embarrassing but no-one would seriously be calling for resignations. We probably wouldn't even know. And I wouldn't be bothered by that.
This is different. Technically, a triviality. Politically? Devastating.
Re Crispin Blunt, I see that his outburst on twitter was not a one-off. He was likewise ranting about it on a local Conservative WhatsApp group, leading one councillor to reply that he was unfit to hold public office. Given too his attacks on Lisa Townsend, it's hard not to agree.
Yes, I somewhat regret defending Blunt's right to speak out last night. He might just be a twat
Would the same argument not apply to a speeding ticket?
Don't be stupid
A speeding ticket is an FPN, is it not?
Murder and tax fraud can both get you sent to prison. That doesn’t mean they are the same.
I think you should measure the comparative seriousness of criminal offences by the penalty. So, no, you are unlikely to get life imprisonment for tax fraud. But it depends on the size of the FPN awarded. I think a speeding ticket is £100 and 3 points.
Would the same argument not apply to a speeding ticket?
Don't be stupid
A speeding ticket is an FPN, is it not?
It is, but it is often accepted that it may be due to a lapse of judgement. If anyone thinks that the PM having a party against rules that he set up himself when other people in the country had relatives dying without seeing them is the equivalent of a speeding or parking ticket they are a political dunce at best or an ignorant moron at worst.
Re Crispin Blunt, I see that his outburst on twitter was not a one-off. He was likewise ranting about it on a local Conservative WhatsApp group, leading one councillor to reply that he was unfit to hold public office. Given too his attacks on Lisa Townsend, it's hard not to agree.
Yes, I somewhat regret defending Blunt's right to speak out last night. He might just be a twat
Cements Rishi Sunak's fall from grace as possibly one of the swiftest ever. The door was slightly ajar and now it is firmly shut forever. Given how rich he is why would he bother to carry on? Move to California and live on his and his wife's millions seems much more preferable!
Maybe the FPN will mean he can't go back to the US? They are pretty tough on this area, as I understand it.
An FPN is not a conviction it is the equivalent of a parking ticket or speeding ticket, I don't think they're tough at all on this area are they?
Politically its very different, but the US aren't involved in the politics of it.
True, but the way to challenge a FPN is simply not to pay it, whereupon the only option the police have is to charge you with the offence - they can't just enforce it as if it were a fine. Johnson might just consider going down that route on an anything to buy time basis but the danger for Rishi and indeed him is that the end result is a proper conviction for a proper crime.
Would the same argument not apply to a speeding ticket?
C'mon. Context, innit? We weren't all shut in our houses to stop us speeding.
I don't think that's WIlliam's point.
If you accept Ian Dunt's argument, then speeding fines would result in you leaving office.
But you can disagree and still want Boris and/or Sunak to leave.
I don't give a shit about the legal technicalities. They don't matter. They locked us down, then ignored the rules themselves. That's it.
If it were a speeding fine it would be embarrassing but no-one would seriously be calling for resignations. We probably wouldn't even know. And I wouldn't be bothered by that.
This is different. Technically, a triviality. Politically? Devastating.
Surely a speeding ticket is just the same. They tell us we can't drive more than x mph and then ignore the rules.
Would the same argument not apply to a speeding ticket?
C'mon. Context, innit? We weren't all shut in our houses to stop us speeding.
I don't think that's WIlliam's point.
If you accept Ian Dunt's argument, then speeding fines would result in you leaving office.
But you can disagree and still want Boris and/or Sunak to leave.
I don't give a shit about the legal technicalities. They don't matter. They locked us down, then ignored the rules themselves. That's it.
If it were a speeding fine it would be embarrassing but no-one would seriously be calling for resignations. We probably wouldn't even know. And I wouldn't be bothered by that.
This is different. Technically, a triviality. Politically? Devastating.
Surely a speeding ticket is just the same. They tell us we can't drive more than x mph and then ignore the rules.
not really as johnson did not make the speeding law , he did make this
"the PM’s official photographer took pictures, and the police have photographs of Johnson at the event “raising his can of Estrella beer towards the camera in a toast”."
According to the Graun. I don't see the PM surviving that picture's publication, which I would expect to see in Sue Gray's report.
Clearly, no-one at pb.com has ever tried to get someone who is in charge to resign (whether inside politics or outside).
Even if you uncover wrongdoing & it is an open-and-shut case, it is almost impossible to get anyone to resign.
The rules applies in politics, in local government, in companies, in universities, in the NHS, anywhere.
Someone may be encouraged to leave their job with a big pay-off and a NDA -- but that is not the same as resigning.
Even if the person is guilty of criminal acts, it is better for the institution to hush it up than force a resignation which will make the criminal acts public. In fact, the more criminal the behaviour, the greater the reluctance to make it public ... the bigger the potential pay-off for the guilty party for leaving "to pursue other challenges".
So, my prediction is absolutely no-one will be resigning.
Election night '92 the feeling was very much that the Tories were back for a comfortable 5 more years. That they were unable to hold themselves together was due to incompetence, poor behaviour, and their own internal contradictions. I began to plot to leave the country for a bit.
I remember it vividly. Night at the opera, with pink champagne on ice to (reluctantly) toast Prime Minister Kinnock. "Hung Parliament" said the exit polls.....then things got interesting.....
Remember it very well. At an election party at the Savoy with a rather vivacious redhead.
Re Crispin Blunt, I see that his outburst on twitter was not a one-off. He was likewise ranting about it on a local Conservative WhatsApp group, leading one councillor to reply that he was unfit to hold public office. Given too his attacks on Lisa Townsend, it's hard not to agree.
Yes, I somewhat regret defending Blunt's right to speak out last night. He might just be a twat
Would the same argument not apply to a speeding ticket?
C'mon. Context, innit? We weren't all shut in our houses to stop us speeding.
I don't think that's WIlliam's point.
If you accept Ian Dunt's argument, then speeding fines would result in you leaving office.
But you can disagree and still want Boris and/or Sunak to leave.
I don't give a shit about the legal technicalities. They don't matter. They locked us down, then ignored the rules themselves. That's it.
If it were a speeding fine it would be embarrassing but no-one would seriously be calling for resignations. We probably wouldn't even know. And I wouldn't be bothered by that.
This is different. Technically, a triviality. Politically? Devastating.
That's the point. Maybe it's politically survivable and maybe it isn't, but for Dunt to say that "no functioning country, on a basic moral, political or constitutional level, can allow that prime minister to stay in office" is absurd hyperbole. It's not a constitutional issue.
Would the same argument not apply to a speeding ticket?
C'mon. Context, innit? We weren't all shut in our houses to stop us speeding.
I don't think that's WIlliam's point.
If you accept Ian Dunt's argument, then speeding fines would result in you leaving office.
But you can disagree and still want Boris and/or Sunak to leave.
I don't give a shit about the legal technicalities. They don't matter. They locked us down, then ignored the rules themselves. That's it.
If it were a speeding fine it would be embarrassing but no-one would seriously be calling for resignations. We probably wouldn't even know. And I wouldn't be bothered by that.
This is different. Technically, a triviality. Politically? Devastating.
Surely a speeding ticket is just the same. They tell us we can't drive more than x mph and then ignore the rules.
If you can't see the difference, optics, consequences, whatever, between a speeding fine and breaking lockdown rules then that's entirely up to you.
I guess we'll see in a few weeks the wider public's view definitively via the ballot box. No doubt some will err to your view and vote accordingly. I suspect rather more will be incensed, if Boris is still PM, and cast their vote to reflect that.
Will be amusing if Dishi Rishi resigns, calling it a matter of principle.
Yes, Rishi can finish Boris by resigning like that. To be honest, I think they would both be happier when not in office. Boris can go to his real calling (after dinner speeches) and Rishi can sit by the pool in California.
US inflation has just hit 8.5%, and they DON'T have the European energy crisis
How bad can this get?
Further inflationary pressures from the war in Ukraine, food prices up, gas prices up, steel prices up (Europe's biggest steel works was in Ukraine), also a problem with semiconductor chips as half the neon used in production was made in Ukraine.
Add into that lockdowns in China with all the supply chain shortages that entails and my opinion is we are barely at the beginning of the upward curve.
We are also seeing wage demands start to rise - a classic wage/inflationary spiral.
I'm sitting on over 100k in cash and have been thinking about putting it all into gold.
Will be amusing if Dishi Rishi resigns, calling it a matter of principle.
What are his options: 1. Bunker down / dispute the FPN and hope BoJo does too 2. Quietly accept the fine, try to stay in job; hope Bojo makes a big song and dance 3. Resign, rehabilitate, come back? Or off to SoCal?
Would the same argument not apply to a speeding ticket?
C'mon. Context, innit? We weren't all shut in our houses to stop us speeding.
I don't think that's WIlliam's point.
If you accept Ian Dunt's argument, then speeding fines would result in you leaving office.
But you can disagree and still want Boris and/or Sunak to leave.
I don't give a shit about the legal technicalities. They don't matter. They locked us down, then ignored the rules themselves. That's it.
If it were a speeding fine it would be embarrassing but no-one would seriously be calling for resignations. We probably wouldn't even know. And I wouldn't be bothered by that.
This is different. Technically, a triviality. Politically? Devastating.
That's the point. Maybe it's politically survivable and maybe it isn't, but for Dunt to say that "no functioning country, on a basic moral, political or constitutional level, can allow that prime minister to stay in office" is absurd hyperbole. It's not a constitutional issue.
That's a fair point, its a political issue not a constitutional one.
Election night '92 the feeling was very much that the Tories were back for a comfortable 5 more years. That they were unable to hold themselves together was due to incompetence, poor behaviour, and their own internal contradictions. I began to plot to leave the country for a bit.
I remember it vividly. Night at the opera, with pink champagne on ice to (reluctantly) toast Prime Minister Kinnock. "Hung Parliament" said the exit polls.....then things got interesting.....
Remember it very well. At an election party at the Savoy with a rather vivacious redhead.
Re Crispin Blunt, I see that his outburst on twitter was not a one-off. He was likewise ranting about it on a local Conservative WhatsApp group, leading one councillor to reply that he was unfit to hold public office. Given too his attacks on Lisa Townsend, it's hard not to agree.
Yes, I somewhat regret defending Blunt's right to speak out last night. He might just be a twat
Try not to post when sloshed, there's a good chap
No @Leon posts after midday? PB wouldn't be the same. 😉
Boris has been an excellent PM in the round, he has handled the biggest issues (Ukraine, Covid, Brexit) extremely well.
But lawmakers can not be lawbreakers.
As an analogy, its like an excellent employee who hits all the KPIs who goes on a bender and attacks a colleague - it is gross misconduct, they have to go, even if they've been hitting their KPIs.
"extremely well" lol. He is a buffoon that leaves a trail of chaos in his wake and is totally unfit for office in every way. I'll give him some credit for his support of Ukraine, but it is no more than any other PM of the last 100 years would have done.
I'm glad you're willing, begrudgingly, to acknowledge the support for Ukraine but that's not all.
Got a Brexit deal through Parliament which his predecessor couldn't? ✅ First country in the world to roll out vaccines? ✅ First country in Europe to lift lockdown? ✅ [Thanks to pressure from MPs] didn't put the country into an unnecessary lockdown over Christmas/New Year (unlike Scotland, Wales, NI and rest of Europe)? ✅ Followed his own laws? ❌
Plenty of ticks in his column. The red X is gross misconduct though, he has to go regardless of how many credits there are in his column.
You've omitted blatant and repeated lying to parliament.
Boris has been an excellent PM in the round, he has handled the biggest issues (Ukraine, Covid, Brexit) extremely well.
But lawmakers can not be lawbreakers.
As an analogy, its like an excellent employee who hits all the KPIs who goes on a bender and attacks a colleague - it is gross misconduct, they have to go, even if they've been hitting their KPIs.
"extremely well" lol. He is a buffoon that leaves a trail of chaos in his wake and is totally unfit for office in every way. I'll give him some credit for his support of Ukraine, but it is no more than any other PM of the last 100 years would have done.
I'm glad you're willing, begrudgingly, to acknowledge the support for Ukraine but that's not all.
Got a Brexit deal through Parliament which his predecessor couldn't? ✅ First country in the world to roll out vaccines? ✅ First country in Europe to lift lockdown? ✅ [Thanks to pressure from MPs] didn't put the country into an unnecessary lockdown over Christmas/New Year (unlike Scotland, Wales, NI and rest of Europe)? ✅ Followed his own laws? ❌
Plenty of ticks in his column. The red X is gross misconduct though, he has to go regardless of how many credits there are in his column.
You are just still trying to justify support that until recently was obsequious and obsessive. As Churchill said, even fools are right sometimes, and you are attempting to cherry pick "achievements" to justify your inappropriate fawning of the worst PM in history.
Will be amusing if Dishi Rishi resigns, calling it a matter of principle.
What are his options: 1. Bunker down / dispute the FPN and hope BoJo does too 2. Quietly accept the fine, try to stay in job; hope Bojo makes a big song and dance 3. Resign, rehabilitate, come back? Or off to SoCal?
Disputing the fine means a prosecution. Please, oh pretty please...
US inflation has just hit 8.5%, and they DON'T have the European energy crisis
How bad can this get?
Further inflationary pressures from the war in Ukraine, food prices up, gas prices up, steel prices up (Europe's biggest steel works was in Ukraine), also a problem with semiconductor chips as half the neon used in production was made in Ukraine.
Add into that lockdowns in China with all the supply chain shortages that entails and my opinion is we are barely at the beginning of the upward curve.
We are also seeing wage demands start to rise - a classic wage/inflationary spiral.
I'm sitting on over 100k in cash and have been thinking about putting it all into gold.
Likewise. I sold all my shares a few months back, made a decent profit, and now I have basically everything in cash
This is not good if inflation is heading north of 10% (which I think it might be) - not good at all. But what does one do?
"the PM’s official photographer took pictures, and the police have photographs of Johnson at the event “raising his can of Estrella beer towards the camera in a toast”."
According to the Graun. I don't see the PM surviving that picture's publication, which I would expect to see in Sue Gray's report.
Boris has been an excellent PM in the round, he has handled the biggest issues (Ukraine, Covid, Brexit) extremely well.
But lawmakers can not be lawbreakers.
As an analogy, its like an excellent employee who hits all the KPIs who goes on a bender and attacks a colleague - it is gross misconduct, they have to go, even if they've been hitting their KPIs.
Clearly, no-one at pb.com has ever tried to get someone who is in charge to resign (whether inside politics or outside).
Even if you uncover wrongdoing & it is an open-and-shut case, it is almost impossible to get anyone to resign.
The rules applies in politics, in local government, in companies, in universities, in the NHS, anywhere.
Someone may be encouraged to leave their job with a big pay-off and a NDA -- but that is not the same as resigning.
Even if the person is guilty of criminal acts, it is better for the institution to hush it up than force a resignation which will make the criminal acts public. In fact, the more criminal the behaviour, the greater the reluctance to make it public ... the bigger the potential pay-off for the guilty party for leaving "to pursue other challenges".
So, my prediction is absolutely no-one will be resigning.
The transition is quite complex now. A few months ago Rishi was the leader in waiting. No more and that’s obviously even without him getting fined too. If you’re the parliamentary party, why push for a resignation now, unless you love a bit of Truss? If you don’t, it’s too risky she might takeover in the absence of anyone else. So you sit and wait and hope something turns up. Which it won’t.
The more they move there, the more it isn't in Ukraine.
And the more likely that Finland (and Sweden) join NATO.
True, though if Finland and Sweden make an application to join NATO and Russia then attacks Finland and Sweden before their NATO membership is confirmed, that would still not technically be an attack on a NATO member state
If Finland and Sweden apply whilst Russia is moving troops up to the border, Putin would discover what the "fast track" channel is for.
Fuck technicalities, we wheel out the good stuff....
Then head to WW3.
The position remains we only go to military action if a NATO member state is attacked otherwise just expanded sanctions, Sweden and Finland took the risk when they decided not to join NATO earlier. They are probably best now just staying independent nations as a NATO application would just provoke Putin
Mrs T would have called you frit.
Mrs T never went to war with a nuclear missile armed USSR either, nor China over Hong Kong.
She knew to fight battles she could win.
In the 1980s of course NATO stopped at West Berlin not the Baltic States.
When the USSR put missiles in Cuba JFK also avoided war and found a diplomatic solution
I think we are well past the point where 'fear of provoking Putin' is now that main problem.
Boris probably ought to resign but he won't, and I suspect the MPs won't move against him, unless the local election results are absolutely devastating.
Boris has been an excellent PM in the round, he has handled the biggest issues (Ukraine, Covid, Brexit) extremely well.
But lawmakers can not be lawbreakers.
As an analogy, its like an excellent employee who hits all the KPIs who goes on a bender and attacks a colleague - it is gross misconduct, they have to go, even if they've been hitting their KPIs.
"extremely well" lol. He is a buffoon that leaves a trail of chaos in his wake and is totally unfit for office in every way. I'll give him some credit for his support of Ukraine, but it is no more than any other PM of the last 100 years would have done.
I'm glad you're willing, begrudgingly, to acknowledge the support for Ukraine but that's not all.
Got a Brexit deal through Parliament which his predecessor couldn't? ✅ First country in the world to roll out vaccines? ✅ First country in Europe to lift lockdown? ✅ [Thanks to pressure from MPs] didn't put the country into an unnecessary lockdown over Christmas/New Year (unlike Scotland, Wales, NI and rest of Europe)? ✅ Followed his own laws? ❌
Plenty of ticks in his column. The red X is gross misconduct though, he has to go regardless of how many credits there are in his column.
You are just still trying to justify support that until recently was obsequious and obsessive. As Churchill said, even fools are right sometimes, and you are attempting to cherry pick "achievements" to justify your inappropriate fawning of the worst PM in history.
"cherry pick"
Covid, Brexit and Ukraine are cherries to you? They're the biggest issues of the last few years, potentially decades, and he handled them well. If Covid, Brexit and Ukraine are cherries then what else should we be looking at?
But it doesn't matter if he's been one of the best PMs of the modern era on the big issues, he got this one specific one categorically wrong.
Then Sunak would have to pay £1.2 million or something
Its what they do with speeding fines so the precedent is there. I have not thought about it deeply so there may be all sorts of arguments against but it does seem a principle that could justifiably be extended to all sorts of fines.
"the PM’s official photographer took pictures, and the police have photographs of Johnson at the event “raising his can of Estrella beer towards the camera in a toast”."
According to the Graun. I don't see the PM surviving that picture's publication, which I would expect to see in Sue Gray's report.
The only way that isn't the front cover is if there is a photo of Boris chugging a bottle of bubbles.
I'm rather hoping at least one casualty of all this will be the office of the Prime Minister's Official Photographer.
Could Boris do a John Major or David David? Resign as Tory leader/MP and immediately stand again.
No.
A general election perhaps? “Let the people decide “.
In 1990, I'm sure Thatcher considered it as a way of surviving the leadership bid, but it never happened. In this case, given I think the Conservative vote and seat total would go down, whilst Johnson might well see it as an 'answer', I suspect a good number of his fellow MPs will be dead set against the idea.
Were the PM to appeal and win (“were” is doing a lot in that sentence) then I don’t think the Met, above the rank of Chief Inspector, would enjoy the following six months.
Would the same argument not apply to a speeding ticket?
It's a good question. Fixed Penalty Notices are entirely inadequate for the repeated in-your-face breaches of the rules. The speeding equivalent would be Johnson tearing down Whitehall every night at 100 mph out of pure badness. He would lose his licence and eventually be locked up.
"the PM’s official photographer took pictures, and the police have photographs of Johnson at the event “raising his can of Estrella beer towards the camera in a toast”."
According to the Graun. I don't see the PM surviving that picture's publication, which I would expect to see in Sue Gray's report.
Oh no, not "waiting for Gray" again. I don't think I can bear it.
Boris has been an excellent PM in the round, he has handled the biggest issues (Ukraine, Covid, Brexit) extremely well.
But lawmakers can not be lawbreakers.
As an analogy, its like an excellent employee who hits all the KPIs who goes on a bender and attacks a colleague - it is gross misconduct, they have to go, even if they've been hitting their KPIs.
"extremely well" lol. He is a buffoon that leaves a trail of chaos in his wake and is totally unfit for office in every way. I'll give him some credit for his support of Ukraine, but it is no more than any other PM of the last 100 years would have done.
I'm glad you're willing, begrudgingly, to acknowledge the support for Ukraine but that's not all.
Got a Brexit deal through Parliament which his predecessor couldn't? ✅ First country in the world to roll out vaccines? ✅ First country in Europe to lift lockdown? ✅ [Thanks to pressure from MPs] didn't put the country into an unnecessary lockdown over Christmas/New Year (unlike Scotland, Wales, NI and rest of Europe)? ✅ Followed his own laws? ❌
Plenty of ticks in his column. The red X is gross misconduct though, he has to go regardless of how many credits there are in his column.
You are just still trying to justify support that until recently was obsequious and obsessive. As Churchill said, even fools are right sometimes, and you are attempting to cherry pick "achievements" to justify your inappropriate fawning of the worst PM in history.
I don't agree with BR's list and I don't need to. Boris could have personally cured cancer and he would still need to go. You cannot lie to the House of Commons and stay in office. The ministerial code is clear and unambiguous on that front.
So he is right. He broke the law - and lied about doing so. Gross Misconduct. Off you go.
Interrupting my holiday from sunny Leeds to say that Johnson needs to pay his FPN quickly and quietly if he has any hope of saving himself. With the attitude of his Government, however, I half expect him to push a retroactive bill through the Commons absolving himself.
I would be misleading PB if I didn't disclose the fact that I would be excited to see Boris kicking up a great, stinking, self-defeating fuss to escape all this, but I suspect he will do the sensible thing and try to pay it quickly and quietly.
Rishi resigns and takes Boris with him would be the most spectacular political event in years
If it leads to Liz Truss as leader it would be the most disastrous as well. It’s the only good reason for him staying.
However, I do think he has to go. How can I teach about this ‘British Values’ bollocks that Gove dreamed up when the PM is ignoring his own laws with such breathtaking chutzpah and lack of concern for the consequences?
He’ll stay because the majority of Tory MPs are spineless cowards with no brains and no integrity, but he should go.
Were the PM to appeal and win (“were” is doing a lot in that sentence) then I don’t think the Met, above the rank of Chief Inspector, would enjoy the following six months.
It's not an appeal! it's a referral for prosecution instead of the FPN.
Would the same argument not apply to a speeding ticket?
C'mon. Context, innit? We weren't all shut in our houses to stop us speeding.
I don't think that's WIlliam's point.
If you accept Ian Dunt's argument, then speeding fines would result in you leaving office.
But you can disagree and still want Boris and/or Sunak to leave.
I don't give a shit about the legal technicalities. They don't matter. They locked us down, then ignored the rules themselves. That's it.
If it were a speeding fine it would be embarrassing but no-one would seriously be calling for resignations. We probably wouldn't even know. And I wouldn't be bothered by that.
This is different. Technically, a triviality. Politically? Devastating.
That's the point. Maybe it's politically survivable and maybe it isn't, but for Dunt to say that "no functioning country, on a basic moral, political or constitutional level, can allow that prime minister to stay in office" is absurd hyperbole. It's not a constitutional issue.
You're doing exactly what Dunt predicts. Spinning off onto tangents, wibbling away about speeding tickets, diving into minutiae. The technicalities, in this limited and specific way, if you will, don't matter.
It might not be constitutional (and I'm no constitutional expert but isn't ours largely unwritten so it can evolve and be flexible like the US, for example, one cannot, so perhaps it might morph into one?), it's political.
Will be amusing if Dishi Rishi resigns, calling it a matter of principle.
Yes, Rishi can finish Boris by resigning like that. To be honest, I think they would both be happier when not in office. Boris can go to his real calling (after dinner speeches) and Rishi can sit by the pool in California.
It would be bloody funny if Rishi resigned and Boris said words to the effect of: the person who was actually responsible has now resigned so we can all move on.
I think where we’re at now is Boris will style it out. He’ll be thinking now about legacy and building memoire chapters. Intuitively the Tory MPs won’t let him fight another election but not obvious who would takeover and how. Labour govt in 2024 then.
Would the same argument not apply to a speeding ticket?
It's a good question. Fixed Penalty Notices are entirely inadequate for the repeated in-your-face breaches of the rules. The speeding equivalent would be Johnson tearing down Whitehall every night at 100 mph out of pure badness. He would lose his licence and eventually be locked up.
Having told Parliament at PMQs. "I have no car. What's more, I cannot even drive. (Because I'm always pissed...)"
Rishi resigns and takes Boris with him would be the most spectacular political event in years
If it leads to Liz Truss as leader it would be the most disastrous as well. It’s the only good reason for him staying.
However, I do think he has to go. How can I teach about this ‘British Values’ bollocks that Gove dreamed up when the PM is ignoring his own laws with such breathtaking chutzpah and lack of concern for the consequences?
He’ll stay because the majority of Tory MPs are spineless cowards with no brains and no integrity, but he should go.
It won't be Truss now, most likely Wallace, especially with Ukraine
US inflation has just hit 8.5%, and they DON'T have the European energy crisis
How bad can this get?
Further inflationary pressures from the war in Ukraine, food prices up, gas prices up, steel prices up (Europe's biggest steel works was in Ukraine), also a problem with semiconductor chips as half the neon used in production was made in Ukraine.
Add into that lockdowns in China with all the supply chain shortages that entails and my opinion is we are barely at the beginning of the upward curve.
We are also seeing wage demands start to rise - a classic wage/inflationary spiral.
I'm sitting on over 100k in cash and have been thinking about putting it all into gold.
Current £1,507.96/oz 50 year high £1,574.37 50 year low £18.76 it says here, can I suggest not absolutely every penny in gold?
Rishi resigns and takes Boris with him would be the most spectacular political event in years
If it leads to Liz Truss as leader it would be the most disastrous as well. It’s the only good reason for him staying.
However, I do think he has to go. How can I teach about this ‘British Values’ bollocks that Gove dreamed up when the PM is ignoring his own laws with such breathtaking chutzpah and lack of concern for the consequences?
He’ll stay because the majority of Tory MPs are spineless cowards with no brains and no integrity, but he should go.
It might lead to Priti Patel or Nadine Dorries as PM.
"the PM’s official photographer took pictures, and the police have photographs of Johnson at the event “raising his can of Estrella beer towards the camera in a toast”."
According to the Graun. I don't see the PM surviving that picture's publication, which I would expect to see in Sue Gray's report.
Yep. Bloody European beer.
I think it is well known that Johnson doesn't even like beer, which this photo is further evidence of.
Ed Davey calling for the recall of Parliament so that confidence in the Liar can be debated.
An interestingly shaped wedge. Will Tory MPs deny there was any lies - and thus Crispin Blunt the FPNs? Will they say "he didn't do it on purpose, look, ladycock!!!". Or will they just be frit like HY and refuse to even engage the issue?
Boris has been an excellent PM in the round, he has handled the biggest issues (Ukraine, Covid, Brexit) extremely well.
But lawmakers can not be lawbreakers.
As an analogy, its like an excellent employee who hits all the KPIs who goes on a bender and attacks a colleague - it is gross misconduct, they have to go, even if they've been hitting their KPIs.
"extremely well" lol. He is a buffoon that leaves a trail of chaos in his wake and is totally unfit for office in every way. I'll give him some credit for his support of Ukraine, but it is no more than any other PM of the last 100 years would have done.
I'm glad you're willing, begrudgingly, to acknowledge the support for Ukraine but that's not all.
Got a Brexit deal through Parliament which his predecessor couldn't? ✅ First country in the world to roll out vaccines? ✅ First country in Europe to lift lockdown? ✅ [Thanks to pressure from MPs] didn't put the country into an unnecessary lockdown over Christmas/New Year (unlike Scotland, Wales, NI and rest of Europe)? ✅ Followed his own laws? ❌
Plenty of ticks in his column. The red X is gross misconduct though, he has to go regardless of how many credits there are in his column.
You are just still trying to justify support that until recently was obsequious and obsessive. As Churchill said, even fools are right sometimes, and you are attempting to cherry pick "achievements" to justify your inappropriate fawning of the worst PM in history.
I don't agree with BR's list and I don't need to. Boris could have personally cured cancer and he would still need to go. You cannot lie to the House of Commons and stay in office. The ministerial code is clear and unambiguous on that front.
So he is right. He broke the law - and lied about doing so. Gross Misconduct. Off you go.
Blair arguably committed gross misconduct over lying to take us to war but Labour kept him until 2007
Boris has been an excellent PM in the round, he has handled the biggest issues (Ukraine, Covid, Brexit) extremely well.
But lawmakers can not be lawbreakers.
As an analogy, its like an excellent employee who hits all the KPIs who goes on a bender and attacks a colleague - it is gross misconduct, they have to go, even if they've been hitting their KPIs.
"extremely well" lol. He is a buffoon that leaves a trail of chaos in his wake and is totally unfit for office in every way. I'll give him some credit for his support of Ukraine, but it is no more than any other PM of the last 100 years would have done.
I'm glad you're willing, begrudgingly, to acknowledge the support for Ukraine but that's not all.
Got a Brexit deal through Parliament which his predecessor couldn't? ✅ First country in the world to roll out vaccines? ✅ First country in Europe to lift lockdown? ✅ [Thanks to pressure from MPs] didn't put the country into an unnecessary lockdown over Christmas/New Year (unlike Scotland, Wales, NI and rest of Europe)? ✅ Followed his own laws? ❌
Plenty of ticks in his column. The red X is gross misconduct though, he has to go regardless of how many credits there are in his column.
You are just still trying to justify support that until recently was obsequious and obsessive. As Churchill said, even fools are right sometimes, and you are attempting to cherry pick "achievements" to justify your inappropriate fawning of the worst PM in history.
"cherry pick"
Covid, Brexit and Ukraine are cherries to you? They're the biggest issues of the last few years, potentially decades, and he handled them well. If Covid, Brexit and Ukraine are cherries then what else should we be looking at?
But it doesn't matter if he's been one of the best PMs of the modern era on the big issues, he got this one specific one categorically wrong.
He did not handle Brexit or Covid "well" by any objective measure; and the fact that you think he did is an insult to all those that lost businesses and lives. You keep telling yourself that and eventually even you might believe it. He is an incompetent fuckwit and the worst PM in history. You don't want to see that because you have been trying to convince yourself and others for years that he is some sort of latter day Churchill. You were succoured. He loves people like you. Anyway, must do some work, nice to see you again.
Boris probably ought to resign but he won't, and I suspect the MPs won't move against him, unless the local election results are absolutely devastating.
Comments
Your biggest competition has just spontaneously combusted and you might be looking at a vacancy for the top job opening up at exactly the same time.
Got a Brexit deal through Parliament which his predecessor couldn't? ✅
First country in the world to roll out vaccines? ✅
First country in Europe to lift lockdown? ✅
[Thanks to pressure from MPs] didn't put the country into an unnecessary lockdown over Christmas/New Year (unlike Scotland, Wales, NI and rest of Europe)? ✅
Followed his own laws? ❌
Plenty of ticks in his column. The red X is gross misconduct though, he has to go regardless of how many credits there are in his column.
He has to go. How can HY defend this?
How bad can this get?
Well, lack of morality.
If it were a speeding fine it would be embarrassing but no-one would seriously be calling for resignations. We probably wouldn't even know. And I wouldn't be bothered by that.
This is different. Technically, a triviality. Politically? Devastating.
Former centre right President Sarkozy meanwhile endorses Macron
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-61073894
Then Sunak would have to pay £1.2 million or something
According to the Graun. I don't see the PM surviving that picture's publication, which I would expect to see in Sue Gray's report.
Clearly, no-one at pb.com has ever tried to get someone who is in charge to resign (whether inside politics or outside).
Even if you uncover wrongdoing & it is an open-and-shut case, it is almost impossible to get anyone to resign.
The rules applies in politics, in local government, in companies, in universities, in the NHS, anywhere.
Someone may be encouraged to leave their job with a big pay-off and a NDA -- but that is not the same as resigning.
Even if the person is guilty of criminal acts, it is better for the institution to hush it up than force a resignation which will make the criminal acts public. In fact, the more criminal the behaviour, the greater the reluctance to make it public ... the bigger the potential pay-off for the guilty party for leaving "to pursue other challenges".
So, my prediction is absolutely no-one will be resigning.
I guess we'll see in a few weeks the wider public's view definitively via the ballot box. No doubt some will err to your view and vote accordingly. I suspect rather more will be incensed, if Boris is still PM, and cast their vote to reflect that.
Add into that lockdowns in China with all the supply chain shortages that entails and my opinion is we are barely at the beginning of the upward curve.
We are also seeing wage demands start to rise - a classic wage/inflationary spiral.
I'm sitting on over 100k in cash and have been thinking about putting it all into gold.
1. Bunker down / dispute the FPN and hope BoJo does too
2. Quietly accept the fine, try to stay in job; hope Bojo makes a big song and dance
3. Resign, rehabilitate, come back? Or off to SoCal?
https://twitter.com/PaulBrandITV/status/1513873708154343426
Thank goodness I dropped by and spotted that.
This is not good if inflation is heading north of 10% (which I think it might be) - not good at all. But what does one do?
Bloody European beer.
Covid, Brexit and Ukraine are cherries to you? They're the biggest issues of the last few years, potentially decades, and he handled them well. If Covid, Brexit and Ukraine are cherries then what else should we be looking at?
But it doesn't matter if he's been one of the best PMs of the modern era on the big issues, he got this one specific one categorically wrong.
I'm rather hoping at least one casualty of all this will be the office of the Prime Minister's Official Photographer.
In this case, given I think the Conservative vote and seat total would go down, whilst Johnson might well see it as an 'answer', I suspect a good number of his fellow MPs will be dead set against the idea.
So he is right. He broke the law - and lied about doing so. Gross Misconduct. Off you go.
I would be misleading PB if I didn't disclose the fact that I would be excited to see Boris kicking up a great, stinking, self-defeating fuss to escape all this, but I suspect he will do the sensible thing and try to pay it quickly and quietly.
However, I do think he has to go. How can I teach about this ‘British Values’ bollocks that Gove dreamed up when the PM is ignoring his own laws with such breathtaking chutzpah and lack of concern for the consequences?
He’ll stay because the majority of Tory MPs are spineless cowards with no brains and no integrity, but he should go.
It might not be constitutional (and I'm no constitutional expert but isn't ours largely unwritten so it can evolve and be flexible like the US, for example, one cannot, so perhaps it might morph into one?), it's political.
Whatever. Johnson is, again, severely damaged.
MarqueeMark is nailing the correct Tory response - with a shrug, and a parental “it’s sad, but please leave the stage now.”
An interestingly shaped wedge. Will Tory MPs deny there was any lies - and thus Crispin Blunt the FPNs? Will they say "he didn't do it on purpose, look, ladycock!!!". Or will they just be frit like HY and refuse to even engage the issue?
https://twitter.com/EdwardJDavey/status/1513865154420789250