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Not the sharpest tool in the Tory box – politicalbetting.com

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  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,587
    Everywhere the Russians were, reporters seem to find atrocities. Oliver Carroll here on Yahiden, in the Chernihiv oblast.
    https://twitter.com/TimothyDSnyder/status/1513876285197635602

    And HYUFD would give Putin a veto on European politics.
  • NorthofStokeNorthofStoke Posts: 1,758
    Would it be conceivable that if BoJo feels he has to go that he will announce it but to take effect in a month to allow successor to be chosen?
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,618
    ydoethur said:

    Sean_F said:

    ydoethur said:

    Rishi resigns and takes Boris with him would be the most spectacular political event in years

    If it leads to Liz Truss as leader it would be the most disastrous as well. It’s the only good reason for him staying.

    However, I do think he has to go. How can I teach about this ‘British Values’ bollocks that Gove dreamed up when the PM is ignoring his own laws with such breathtaking chutzpah and lack of concern for the consequences?

    He’ll stay because the majority of Tory MPs are spineless cowards with no brains and no integrity, but he should go.
    It might lead to Priti Patel or Nadine Dorries as PM.
    Do you mind? I’m having lunch.
    Or even Mark Francois.
  • ozymandiasozymandias Posts: 1,503
    HYUFD said:

    I’m with Dunt:


    As am I.

    Boris has been an excellent PM in the round, he has handled the biggest issues (Ukraine, Covid, Brexit) extremely well.

    But lawmakers can not be lawbreakers.

    As an analogy, its like an excellent employee who hits all the KPIs who goes on a bender and attacks a colleague - it is gross misconduct, they have to go, even if they've been hitting their KPIs.
    "extremely well" lol. He is a buffoon that leaves a trail of chaos in his wake and is totally unfit for office in every way. I'll give him some credit for his support of Ukraine, but it is no more than any other PM of the last 100 years would have done.
    I'm glad you're willing, begrudgingly, to acknowledge the support for Ukraine but that's not all.

    Got a Brexit deal through Parliament which his predecessor couldn't? ✅
    First country in the world to roll out vaccines? ✅
    First country in Europe to lift lockdown? ✅
    [Thanks to pressure from MPs] didn't put the country into an unnecessary lockdown over Christmas/New Year (unlike Scotland, Wales, NI and rest of Europe)? ✅
    Followed his own laws? ❌

    Plenty of ticks in his column. The red X is gross misconduct though, he has to go regardless of how many credits there are in his column.
    You are just still trying to justify support that until recently was obsequious and obsessive. As Churchill said, even fools are right sometimes, and you are attempting to cherry pick "achievements" to justify your inappropriate fawning of the worst PM in history.
    I don't agree with BR's list and I don't need to. Boris could have personally cured cancer and he would still need to go. You cannot lie to the House of Commons and stay in office. The ministerial code is clear and unambiguous on that front.

    So he is right. He broke the law - and lied about doing so. Gross Misconduct. Off you go.
    Blair arguably committed gross misconduct over lying to take us to war but Labour kept him until 2007
    And won a handsome majority in between....
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,587
    Several people shot and multiple explosives found at New York City subway station

    #Brooklyn l #NY
    Police confirm explosive devices are present at the 36th Street station. Several people are down. Trains are being halted.

    https://twitter.com/IntelPointAlert/status/1513869148505391108
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 5,775
    HYUFD said:

    I’m with Dunt:


    As am I.

    Boris has been an excellent PM in the round, he has handled the biggest issues (Ukraine, Covid, Brexit) extremely well.

    But lawmakers can not be lawbreakers.

    As an analogy, its like an excellent employee who hits all the KPIs who goes on a bender and attacks a colleague - it is gross misconduct, they have to go, even if they've been hitting their KPIs.
    "extremely well" lol. He is a buffoon that leaves a trail of chaos in his wake and is totally unfit for office in every way. I'll give him some credit for his support of Ukraine, but it is no more than any other PM of the last 100 years would have done.
    I'm glad you're willing, begrudgingly, to acknowledge the support for Ukraine but that's not all.

    Got a Brexit deal through Parliament which his predecessor couldn't? ✅
    First country in the world to roll out vaccines? ✅
    First country in Europe to lift lockdown? ✅
    [Thanks to pressure from MPs] didn't put the country into an unnecessary lockdown over Christmas/New Year (unlike Scotland, Wales, NI and rest of Europe)? ✅
    Followed his own laws? ❌

    Plenty of ticks in his column. The red X is gross misconduct though, he has to go regardless of how many credits there are in his column.
    You are just still trying to justify support that until recently was obsequious and obsessive. As Churchill said, even fools are right sometimes, and you are attempting to cherry pick "achievements" to justify your inappropriate fawning of the worst PM in history.
    I don't agree with BR's list and I don't need to. Boris could have personally cured cancer and he would still need to go. You cannot lie to the House of Commons and stay in office. The ministerial code is clear and unambiguous on that front.

    So he is right. He broke the law - and lied about doing so. Gross Misconduct. Off you go.
    Blair arguably committed gross misconduct over lying to take us to war but Labour kept him until 2007
    To their eternal shame so did the British electorate. I wouldn’t be surprised if the same thing happens with Bozza. Knowing his luck London Bridge will be called by the weekend.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 53,122
    Sean_F said:

    Boris probably ought to resign but he won't, and I suspect the MPs won't move against him, unless the local election results are absolutely devastating.

    I think he may not go now, but he will have to give MPs a cast-iron guarantee that he will not lead them into the next election. Which means him announcing his departure next spring, in time for a new leader installed by the 2023 Conference. And maybe still something of a honeymoon by spring 2024. On new boundaries.

    With Boris long gone off on his lecture circuit.
  • Leon said:

    Dammit @Leon if your Casa advises on Tripadvisor that it’s open 12 to 10pm it should be bloody well open now..

    Is this the castle you used to swim to?


    Looks like it

    Shame you have iffy weather. Collioure is delightful in the sun
    It was a shame, though my burnt arms and neck would say otherwise. It was still a good place to visit but slightly too touristy for my liking; the streets were packed even on such a gloomy day. I’ve now nearly reached Argelès-Sur-Mer where I’m staying tonight, and my new favourite beer, Cap D’Ona, is brewed. I picked up a couple of bottles from a shop in Collioure and I’m drinking their “Ambrée Triple Bio” which is 7.5% ABV. I’m starting to feel a bit tipsy.. hope the hotel will let me check in!
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 6,947

    Would it be conceivable that if BoJo feels he has to go that he will announce it but to take effect in a month to allow successor to be chosen?

    Wouldn’t be unusual. That’s the general position. It would be more unusual if he immediately exited and there was an interim leader - constitutionally it’s not really a thing. The queen has to have a PM.
  • mwadamsmwadams Posts: 3,679

    Rishi resigns and takes Boris with him would be the most spectacular political event in years

    Certainly, Rishi would never be forgotten - and possibly with more affection than he would if skulking off in the next year or two.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,995
    HYUFD said:

    I’m with Dunt:


    As am I.

    Boris has been an excellent PM in the round, he has handled the biggest issues (Ukraine, Covid, Brexit) extremely well.

    But lawmakers can not be lawbreakers.

    As an analogy, its like an excellent employee who hits all the KPIs who goes on a bender and attacks a colleague - it is gross misconduct, they have to go, even if they've been hitting their KPIs.
    "extremely well" lol. He is a buffoon that leaves a trail of chaos in his wake and is totally unfit for office in every way. I'll give him some credit for his support of Ukraine, but it is no more than any other PM of the last 100 years would have done.
    I'm glad you're willing, begrudgingly, to acknowledge the support for Ukraine but that's not all.

    Got a Brexit deal through Parliament which his predecessor couldn't? ✅
    First country in the world to roll out vaccines? ✅
    First country in Europe to lift lockdown? ✅
    [Thanks to pressure from MPs] didn't put the country into an unnecessary lockdown over Christmas/New Year (unlike Scotland, Wales, NI and rest of Europe)? ✅
    Followed his own laws? ❌

    Plenty of ticks in his column. The red X is gross misconduct though, he has to go regardless of how many credits there are in his column.
    You are just still trying to justify support that until recently was obsequious and obsessive. As Churchill said, even fools are right sometimes, and you are attempting to cherry pick "achievements" to justify your inappropriate fawning of the worst PM in history.
    I don't agree with BR's list and I don't need to. Boris could have personally cured cancer and he would still need to go. You cannot lie to the House of Commons and stay in office. The ministerial code is clear and unambiguous on that front.

    So he is right. He broke the law - and lied about doing so. Gross Misconduct. Off you go.
    Blair arguably committed gross misconduct over lying to take us to war but Labour kept him until 2007
    The slight difference HYUFD is that the concrete evidence on the subject didn’t emerge until much later. We knew he wasn’t telling the truth, wilfully or not, from early on but the only enquiries into it were Hutton (ruled out interference) and Butler (refused to commit himself either way).

    Here we have what amounts to a criminal conviction while he’s in office. That should be enough for him to go.

    If it’s at a time when Wallace would be likely to replace him rather than one of the many stupid and nasty yes-people Johnson has promoted, so much the better
  • state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 5,826
    Leon said:

    kyf_100 said:

    Leon said:

    US inflation has just hit 8.5%, and they DON'T have the European energy crisis

    How bad can this get?

    Further inflationary pressures from the war in Ukraine, food prices up, gas prices up, steel prices up (Europe's biggest steel works was in Ukraine), also a problem with semiconductor chips as half the neon used in production was made in Ukraine.

    Add into that lockdowns in China with all the supply chain shortages that entails and my opinion is we are barely at the beginning of the upward curve.

    We are also seeing wage demands start to rise - a classic wage/inflationary spiral.

    I'm sitting on over 100k in cash and have been thinking about putting it all into gold.
    Likewise. I sold all my shares a few months back, made a decent profit, and now I have basically everything in cash

    This is not good if inflation is heading north of 10% (which I think it might be) - not good at all. But what does one do?
    shares should hold their inflationary value (they did to a large extent in Zimbabwe) . Any commodity share especially. There will be fluctuations but they will inflate
  • HYUFD said:

    I’m with Dunt:


    As am I.

    Boris has been an excellent PM in the round, he has handled the biggest issues (Ukraine, Covid, Brexit) extremely well.

    But lawmakers can not be lawbreakers.

    As an analogy, its like an excellent employee who hits all the KPIs who goes on a bender and attacks a colleague - it is gross misconduct, they have to go, even if they've been hitting their KPIs.
    "extremely well" lol. He is a buffoon that leaves a trail of chaos in his wake and is totally unfit for office in every way. I'll give him some credit for his support of Ukraine, but it is no more than any other PM of the last 100 years would have done.
    I'm glad you're willing, begrudgingly, to acknowledge the support for Ukraine but that's not all.

    Got a Brexit deal through Parliament which his predecessor couldn't? ✅
    First country in the world to roll out vaccines? ✅
    First country in Europe to lift lockdown? ✅
    [Thanks to pressure from MPs] didn't put the country into an unnecessary lockdown over Christmas/New Year (unlike Scotland, Wales, NI and rest of Europe)? ✅
    Followed his own laws? ❌

    Plenty of ticks in his column. The red X is gross misconduct though, he has to go regardless of how many credits there are in his column.
    You are just still trying to justify support that until recently was obsequious and obsessive. As Churchill said, even fools are right sometimes, and you are attempting to cherry pick "achievements" to justify your inappropriate fawning of the worst PM in history.
    I don't agree with BR's list and I don't need to. Boris could have personally cured cancer and he would still need to go. You cannot lie to the House of Commons and stay in office. The ministerial code is clear and unambiguous on that front.

    So he is right. He broke the law - and lied about doing so. Gross Misconduct. Off you go.
    Blair arguably committed gross misconduct over lying to take us to war but Labour kept him until 2007
    Laughable contemptable cowardice. Posting your open support for Tony Blair as cover for your Liar is entertaining even for you.

    Just so we're absolutely clear. You support lying. Law breaking. Malfeasance. Corruption of the Rule of Law. Its all acceptable to you.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,334
    moonshine said:

    HYUFD said:

    I’m with Dunt:


    As am I.

    Boris has been an excellent PM in the round, he has handled the biggest issues (Ukraine, Covid, Brexit) extremely well.

    But lawmakers can not be lawbreakers.

    As an analogy, its like an excellent employee who hits all the KPIs who goes on a bender and attacks a colleague - it is gross misconduct, they have to go, even if they've been hitting their KPIs.
    "extremely well" lol. He is a buffoon that leaves a trail of chaos in his wake and is totally unfit for office in every way. I'll give him some credit for his support of Ukraine, but it is no more than any other PM of the last 100 years would have done.
    I'm glad you're willing, begrudgingly, to acknowledge the support for Ukraine but that's not all.

    Got a Brexit deal through Parliament which his predecessor couldn't? ✅
    First country in the world to roll out vaccines? ✅
    First country in Europe to lift lockdown? ✅
    [Thanks to pressure from MPs] didn't put the country into an unnecessary lockdown over Christmas/New Year (unlike Scotland, Wales, NI and rest of Europe)? ✅
    Followed his own laws? ❌

    Plenty of ticks in his column. The red X is gross misconduct though, he has to go regardless of how many credits there are in his column.
    You are just still trying to justify support that until recently was obsequious and obsessive. As Churchill said, even fools are right sometimes, and you are attempting to cherry pick "achievements" to justify your inappropriate fawning of the worst PM in history.
    I don't agree with BR's list and I don't need to. Boris could have personally cured cancer and he would still need to go. You cannot lie to the House of Commons and stay in office. The ministerial code is clear and unambiguous on that front.

    So he is right. He broke the law - and lied about doing so. Gross Misconduct. Off you go.
    Blair arguably committed gross misconduct over lying to take us to war but Labour kept him until 2007
    To their eternal shame so did the British electorate. I wouldn’t be surprised if the same thing happens with Bozza. Knowing his luck London Bridge will be called by the weekend.
    Though in 2005 Labour's voteshare did collapse to just 35%. The lowest voteshare for a party winning a majority since WW2.

    What saved Blair under FPTP was most Labour defectors went LD not to Howard's Tories
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,587
    On the whole misleading Parliament thing.
    https://twitter.com/mikeysmith/status/1513871655482929163
    Rishi Sunak, 7 December 2021: “No, I did not attend any parties”
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,995

    Would it be conceivable that if BoJo feels he has to go that he will announce it but to take effect in a month to allow successor to be chosen?

    He would have to. No mechanism for an acting PM to be chosen. Even when prime ministers have been seriously ill (dying, in the case of Bonar Law) they officially stayed in office until their successor had kissed hands.
  • Nigelb said:

    On the whole misleading Parliament thing.
    https://twitter.com/mikeysmith/status/1513871655482929163
    Rishi Sunak, 7 December 2021: “No, I did not attend any parties”

    Its not a lie if he didn't think anything he attended was a party.

    Breaking the law is more serious than that.
  • ApplicantApplicant Posts: 3,379
    .

    I’m with Dunt:


    As am I.

    Boris has been an excellent PM in the round, he has handled the biggest issues (Ukraine, Covid, Brexit) extremely well.

    But lawmakers can not be lawbreakers.

    As an analogy, its like an excellent employee who hits all the KPIs who goes on a bender and attacks a colleague - it is gross misconduct, they have to go, even if they've been hitting their KPIs.
    "extremely well" lol. He is a buffoon that leaves a trail of chaos in his wake and is totally unfit for office in every way. I'll give him some credit for his support of Ukraine, but it is no more than any other PM of the last 100 years would have done.
    I'm glad you're willing, begrudgingly, to acknowledge the support for Ukraine but that's not all.

    Got a Brexit deal through Parliament which his predecessor couldn't? ✅
    First country in the world to roll out vaccines? ✅
    First country in Europe to lift lockdown? ✅
    [Thanks to pressure from MPs] didn't put the country into an unnecessary lockdown over Christmas/New Year (unlike Scotland, Wales, NI and rest of Europe)? ✅
    Followed his own laws? ❌

    Plenty of ticks in his column. The red X is gross misconduct though, he has to go regardless of how many credits there are in his column.
    You are just still trying to justify support that until recently was obsequious and obsessive. As Churchill said, even fools are right sometimes, and you are attempting to cherry pick "achievements" to justify your inappropriate fawning of the worst PM in history.
    "cherry pick"

    Covid, Brexit and Ukraine are cherries to you? They're the biggest issues of the last few years, potentially decades, and he handled them well. If Covid, Brexit and Ukraine are cherries then what else should we be looking at?

    But it doesn't matter if he's been one of the best PMs of the modern era on the big issues, he got this one specific one categorically wrong.
    He did not handle Brexit or Covid "well" by any objective measure; and the fact that you think he did is an insult to all those that lost businesses and lives.
    He handled covid better than Labour would have done, and in the circumstances that's really all that matters.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,637

    AlistairM said:

    dixiedean said:

    PM, Chancellor to get FPN according to BBC.

    Not sure this is survivable? If ones goes then the other surely has to? Other than at an election have both positions ever been vacated simultaneously?
    Boris can survive this if he is brazen enough and his MPs are spineless enough.

    So he's in with a decent shout.
    Quite. A whole aquarium full of invertebrates. And that's being unkind to the echinoderms, priapulid worms, polyps, whelks and other invertebrates.
  • Worth noting that Sunak has also lied to parliament. "No, I did not attend any parties."

    He has just been fined for attending the Prime Minister's birthday party and singing Happy Birthday.

    Sunak must also resign.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,637

    Nigelb said:

    On the whole misleading Parliament thing.
    https://twitter.com/mikeysmith/status/1513871655482929163
    Rishi Sunak, 7 December 2021: “No, I did not attend any parties”

    Its not a lie if he didn't think anything he attended was a party.

    Breaking the law is more serious than that.
    Birthday cakes?

    Lots of wine?

  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,637

    Nigelb said:

    On the whole misleading Parliament thing.
    https://twitter.com/mikeysmith/status/1513871655482929163
    Rishi Sunak, 7 December 2021: “No, I did not attend any parties”

    Its not a lie if he didn't think anything he attended was a party.

    Breaking the law is more serious than that.
    And it didn't have to be a party to be against the law - simply a non-work social event.
  • ApplicantApplicant Posts: 3,379

    HYUFD said:

    I’m with Dunt:


    As am I.

    Boris has been an excellent PM in the round, he has handled the biggest issues (Ukraine, Covid, Brexit) extremely well.

    But lawmakers can not be lawbreakers.

    As an analogy, its like an excellent employee who hits all the KPIs who goes on a bender and attacks a colleague - it is gross misconduct, they have to go, even if they've been hitting their KPIs.
    "extremely well" lol. He is a buffoon that leaves a trail of chaos in his wake and is totally unfit for office in every way. I'll give him some credit for his support of Ukraine, but it is no more than any other PM of the last 100 years would have done.
    I'm glad you're willing, begrudgingly, to acknowledge the support for Ukraine but that's not all.

    Got a Brexit deal through Parliament which his predecessor couldn't? ✅
    First country in the world to roll out vaccines? ✅
    First country in Europe to lift lockdown? ✅
    [Thanks to pressure from MPs] didn't put the country into an unnecessary lockdown over Christmas/New Year (unlike Scotland, Wales, NI and rest of Europe)? ✅
    Followed his own laws? ❌

    Plenty of ticks in his column. The red X is gross misconduct though, he has to go regardless of how many credits there are in his column.
    You are just still trying to justify support that until recently was obsequious and obsessive. As Churchill said, even fools are right sometimes, and you are attempting to cherry pick "achievements" to justify your inappropriate fawning of the worst PM in history.
    I don't agree with BR's list and I don't need to. Boris could have personally cured cancer and he would still need to go. You cannot lie to the House of Commons and stay in office. The ministerial code is clear and unambiguous on that front.

    So he is right. He broke the law - and lied about doing so. Gross Misconduct. Off you go.
    Blair arguably committed gross misconduct over lying to take us to war but Labour kept him until 2007
    Laughable contemptable cowardice. Posting your open support for Tony Blair as cover for your Liar is entertaining even for you.

    Just so we're absolutely clear. You support lying. Law breaking. Malfeasance. Corruption of the Rule of Law. Its all acceptable to you.
    The problem with setting a precedent is that the other side will follow it, and try to build on it.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,231
    HYUFD said:

    moonshine said:

    HYUFD said:

    I’m with Dunt:


    As am I.

    Boris has been an excellent PM in the round, he has handled the biggest issues (Ukraine, Covid, Brexit) extremely well.

    But lawmakers can not be lawbreakers.

    As an analogy, its like an excellent employee who hits all the KPIs who goes on a bender and attacks a colleague - it is gross misconduct, they have to go, even if they've been hitting their KPIs.
    "extremely well" lol. He is a buffoon that leaves a trail of chaos in his wake and is totally unfit for office in every way. I'll give him some credit for his support of Ukraine, but it is no more than any other PM of the last 100 years would have done.
    I'm glad you're willing, begrudgingly, to acknowledge the support for Ukraine but that's not all.

    Got a Brexit deal through Parliament which his predecessor couldn't? ✅
    First country in the world to roll out vaccines? ✅
    First country in Europe to lift lockdown? ✅
    [Thanks to pressure from MPs] didn't put the country into an unnecessary lockdown over Christmas/New Year (unlike Scotland, Wales, NI and rest of Europe)? ✅
    Followed his own laws? ❌

    Plenty of ticks in his column. The red X is gross misconduct though, he has to go regardless of how many credits there are in his column.
    You are just still trying to justify support that until recently was obsequious and obsessive. As Churchill said, even fools are right sometimes, and you are attempting to cherry pick "achievements" to justify your inappropriate fawning of the worst PM in history.
    I don't agree with BR's list and I don't need to. Boris could have personally cured cancer and he would still need to go. You cannot lie to the House of Commons and stay in office. The ministerial code is clear and unambiguous on that front.

    So he is right. He broke the law - and lied about doing so. Gross Misconduct. Off you go.
    Blair arguably committed gross misconduct over lying to take us to war but Labour kept him until 2007
    To their eternal shame so did the British electorate. I wouldn’t be surprised if the same thing happens with Bozza. Knowing his luck London Bridge will be called by the weekend.
    Though in 2005 Labour's voteshare did collapse to just 35%. The lowest voteshare for a party winning a majority since WW2.

    What saved Blair under FPTP was most Labour defectors went LD not to Howard's Tories
    Just illustrates what a shite system FPTP is!
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,839
    ydoethur said:

    Rishi resigns and takes Boris with him would be the most spectacular political event in years

    If it leads to Liz Truss as leader it would be the most disastrous as well. It’s the only good reason for him staying.
    Holy fuck! We're going to end up with Steven Toast's agent as PM.
  • Carnyx said:

    Nigelb said:

    On the whole misleading Parliament thing.
    https://twitter.com/mikeysmith/status/1513871655482929163
    Rishi Sunak, 7 December 2021: “No, I did not attend any parties”

    Its not a lie if he didn't think anything he attended was a party.

    Breaking the law is more serious than that.
    Birthday cakes?

    Lots of wine?

    I've had both at work before and not been a party.

    Having a slice of birthday cake while in the office on someone's birthday is not a party.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,721

    Worth noting that Sunak has also lied to parliament. "No, I did not attend any parties."

    He has just been fined for attending the Prime Minister's birthday party and singing Happy Birthday.

    Sunak must also resign.

    Sorry, you just have to laugh at this. It's pathetic.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 33,023

    Worth noting that Sunak has also lied to parliament. "No, I did not attend any parties."

    He has just been fined for attending the Prime Minister's birthday party and singing Happy Birthday.

    Sunak must also resign.

    Difficult to disagree with that.
  • Nigelb said:

    On the whole misleading Parliament thing.
    https://twitter.com/mikeysmith/status/1513871655482929163
    Rishi Sunak, 7 December 2021: “No, I did not attend any parties”

    Its not a lie if he didn't think anything he attended was a party.

    Breaking the law is more serious than that.
    There was a cake. And a singing of Happy Birthday. By Rishi Sunak.

    If he didn't think that was a party...
  • darkagedarkage Posts: 5,398

    Scott_xP said:

    Initial vibe among Conservative MPs is that Boris Johnson will survive this. Not sufficient momentum right now to remove him as leader.
    https://twitter.com/PaulBrandITV/status/1513873708154343426

    Jolly good! Keep digging!
    The other thing I have said about this issue, is that it will all end when the voters decisively reject Johnson. Not the conservative party, which he and Cummings were actually responsible for saving - we've already seen that they won't act, so no surprises on this front.
  • Dura_Ace said:

    moonshine said:

    HYUFD said:

    Le Pen says she supports sanctions on Russia except for oil and gas.

    Former centre right President Sarkozy meanwhile endorses Macron

    Give me strength. I abstain from alcohol except on days with a y in them.
    I drink on lundi, mardi, mercredi, jeudi, vendredi, samedi and dimanche as well.
    The relationship that the British have with alcohol is truly hideous.
    I bet you’re right at the top of everybody’s party invite list.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,231

    HYUFD said:

    I’m with Dunt:


    As am I.

    Boris has been an excellent PM in the round, he has handled the biggest issues (Ukraine, Covid, Brexit) extremely well.

    But lawmakers can not be lawbreakers.

    As an analogy, its like an excellent employee who hits all the KPIs who goes on a bender and attacks a colleague - it is gross misconduct, they have to go, even if they've been hitting their KPIs.
    "extremely well" lol. He is a buffoon that leaves a trail of chaos in his wake and is totally unfit for office in every way. I'll give him some credit for his support of Ukraine, but it is no more than any other PM of the last 100 years would have done.
    I'm glad you're willing, begrudgingly, to acknowledge the support for Ukraine but that's not all.

    Got a Brexit deal through Parliament which his predecessor couldn't? ✅
    First country in the world to roll out vaccines? ✅
    First country in Europe to lift lockdown? ✅
    [Thanks to pressure from MPs] didn't put the country into an unnecessary lockdown over Christmas/New Year (unlike Scotland, Wales, NI and rest of Europe)? ✅
    Followed his own laws? ❌

    Plenty of ticks in his column. The red X is gross misconduct though, he has to go regardless of how many credits there are in his column.
    You are just still trying to justify support that until recently was obsequious and obsessive. As Churchill said, even fools are right sometimes, and you are attempting to cherry pick "achievements" to justify your inappropriate fawning of the worst PM in history.
    I don't agree with BR's list and I don't need to. Boris could have personally cured cancer and he would still need to go. You cannot lie to the House of Commons and stay in office. The ministerial code is clear and unambiguous on that front.

    So he is right. He broke the law - and lied about doing so. Gross Misconduct. Off you go.
    Blair arguably committed gross misconduct over lying to take us to war but Labour kept him until 2007
    Laughable contemptable cowardice. Posting your open support for Tony Blair as cover for your Liar is entertaining even for you.

    Just so we're absolutely clear. You support lying. Law breaking. Malfeasance. Corruption of the Rule of Law. Its all acceptable to you.
    "THOU SHALT NOT BEAR FALSE WITNESS"
  • Carnyx said:

    Nigelb said:

    On the whole misleading Parliament thing.
    https://twitter.com/mikeysmith/status/1513871655482929163
    Rishi Sunak, 7 December 2021: “No, I did not attend any parties”

    Its not a lie if he didn't think anything he attended was a party.

    Breaking the law is more serious than that.
    And it didn't have to be a party to be against the law - simply a non-work social event.
    Exactly!

    Breaking the law is gross misconduct so he should go.

    That doesn't mean he lied to Parliament though. But that's a moot point, the threshold to go has already been passed.
  • Gary_BurtonGary_Burton Posts: 737
    I wasn't so bothered about this a couple of months ago but the only way I would be happy to let it go now is if members of the public who were fined (in some cases thousands of pounds) have their fines refunded.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,231

    Carnyx said:

    Nigelb said:

    On the whole misleading Parliament thing.
    https://twitter.com/mikeysmith/status/1513871655482929163
    Rishi Sunak, 7 December 2021: “No, I did not attend any parties”

    Its not a lie if he didn't think anything he attended was a party.

    Breaking the law is more serious than that.
    Birthday cakes?

    Lots of wine?

    I've had both at work before and not been a party.

    Having a slice of birthday cake while in the office on someone's birthday is not a party.
    Maybe the Tories aren't really a "Party" either!
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,995

    Nigelb said:

    On the whole misleading Parliament thing.
    https://twitter.com/mikeysmith/status/1513871655482929163
    Rishi Sunak, 7 December 2021: “No, I did not attend any parties”

    Its not a lie if he didn't think anything he attended was a party.

    Breaking the law is more serious than that.
    There was a cake. And a singing of Happy Birthday. By Rishi Sunak.

    If he didn't think that was a party...
    Perhaps he thought he was being asked about something else.

    ‘No, this isn’t a party. The Conservatives these days are more of a Sicilian-style cartel.’
  • Nigelb said:

    On the whole misleading Parliament thing.
    https://twitter.com/mikeysmith/status/1513871655482929163
    Rishi Sunak, 7 December 2021: “No, I did not attend any parties”

    Its not a lie if he didn't think anything he attended was a party.

    Breaking the law is more serious than that.
    There was a cake. And a singing of Happy Birthday. By Rishi Sunak.

    If he didn't think that was a party...
    I've had cake and sang happy birthday while at work before. Still thought of it as work, not a party.

    If wishing a colleague a happy birthday, while in the office, while at a work meeting is a "party" then you and I have different interpretations of the word party.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,334

    I wasn't so bothered about this a couple of months ago but the only way I would be happy to let it go now is if members of the public who were fined (in some cases thousands of pounds) have their fines refunded.

    I am sure Boris would oblige to save his hide, cake for all remains his motto.

    Sunak probably not and would resign first
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 33,023
    Leon said:

    US inflation has just hit 8.5%, and they DON'T have the European energy crisis

    How bad can this get?

    It's odd how their inflation rate is higher than ours, and other European countries. I don't know what the explanation is.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    Leon said:

    Dammit @Leon if your Casa advises on Tripadvisor that it’s open 12 to 10pm it should be bloody well open now..

    Is this the castle you used to swim to?


    Looks like it

    Shame you have iffy weather. Collioure is delightful in the sun
    It was a shame, though my burnt arms and neck would say otherwise. It was still a good place to visit but slightly too touristy for my liking; the streets were packed even on such a gloomy day. I’ve now nearly reached Argelès-Sur-Mer where I’m staying tonight, and my new favourite beer, Cap D’Ona, is brewed. I picked up a couple of bottles from a shop in Collioure and I’m drinking their “Ambrée Triple Bio” which is 7.5% ABV. I’m starting to feel a bit tipsy.. hope the hotel will let me check in!
    You provide a great service in making me feel comfortably out-unitted. Don't stop!
  • FlatlanderFlatlander Posts: 4,784
    edited April 2022

    Nigelb said:

    On the whole misleading Parliament thing.
    https://twitter.com/mikeysmith/status/1513871655482929163
    Rishi Sunak, 7 December 2021: “No, I did not attend any parties”

    Its not a lie if he didn't think anything he attended was a party.

    Breaking the law is more serious than that.
    There was a cake. And a singing of Happy Birthday. By Rishi Sunak.

    If he didn't think that was a party...
    It isn't a party if someone brings a cake into the office and some people sing a few lines.

    It could have been both not-a-party and also a definite breach of Covid regulations.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,721
    edited April 2022
    At the next general election this seriously inhibits any commentary about the pandemic from the Conservatives. If they bring it things like vaccines, which they might, this will come straight back at them.

    The Labour poster needs to read, "You cannot trust the Conservative Party", with 'Party' in jazzy letters.
  • nico679nico679 Posts: 6,277
    Clearly Johnson knew they were parties and the evidence supported that otherwise the police wouldn’t issue the FPN .

    He is a pathological liar and needs to go which ironically wouldn’t be the best news for Labour but would be best for the country .

    You simply can not normalize lying to the public and parliament without severe repercussions . Johnson has already lowered the bar .

    Once you allow politicians a free pass on that you take a hammer and chisel away at democracy .
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,995
    edited April 2022

    Nigelb said:

    On the whole misleading Parliament thing.
    https://twitter.com/mikeysmith/status/1513871655482929163
    Rishi Sunak, 7 December 2021: “No, I did not attend any parties”

    Its not a lie if he didn't think anything he attended was a party.

    Breaking the law is more serious than that.
    There was a cake. And a singing of Happy Birthday. By Rishi Sunak.

    If he didn't think that was a party...
    I've had cake and sang happy birthday while at work before. Still thought of it as work, not a party.

    If wishing a colleague a happy birthday, while in the office, while at a work meeting is a "party" then you and I have different interpretations of the word party.
    Even if that is true, it is hard to argue it was ‘reasonably necessary for work purposes,’ which was the relevant law and should have been comprehensible even to this lot.

    However, Johnson then has to explain how raising his glass of beer to a camera while wishing somebody happy birthday in a non-office location wasn’t a party!
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,637

    Nigelb said:

    On the whole misleading Parliament thing.
    https://twitter.com/mikeysmith/status/1513871655482929163
    Rishi Sunak, 7 December 2021: “No, I did not attend any parties”

    Its not a lie if he didn't think anything he attended was a party.

    Breaking the law is more serious than that.
    There was a cake. And a singing of Happy Birthday. By Rishi Sunak.

    If he didn't think that was a party...
    I've had cake and sang happy birthday while at work before. Still thought of it as work, not a party.

    If wishing a colleague a happy birthday, while in the office, while at a work meeting is a "party" then you and I have different interpretations of the word party.
    Mr Johnson does like to have his cake and eat it, especially when it comes to parties and the Party.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    Sean_F said:

    MISTY said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Applicant said:

    dixiedean said:

    PM, Chancellor to get FPN according to BBC.

    Two rounds of toast.
    Possibly PM Wallace or Javid or Truss by the end of the summer if true.

    Though depends on how bad the polling and local election losses turn out to be for the Tories as to whether Johnson and Sunak survive
    Direct question. The Prime Minister deliberately mislead the House. Repeatedly.

    Do you think he should follow the Ministerial Code and resign?
    Blair did not resign after misleading the House over WMD.
    Thatcher/Belgrano?
    What did she mislead the house about?
    Absolutely nothing. The Belgrano was part of a pincer movement that was a threat to the task force. The decision to sink was a tough one but militarily correct. The loss of life was exacerbated by the supporting Argentine vessels fleeing the scene.
    I never understood the fuss about the Belgrano. Wars are not won by playing nice.
    The essence of war is violence. Moderation in war is imbecility.

  • nico679 said:

    Clearly Johnson knew they were parties and the evidence supported that otherwise the police wouldn’t issue the FPN .

    He is a pathological liar and needs to go which ironically wouldn’t be the best news for Labour but would be best for the country .

    You simply can not normalize lying to the public and parliament without severe repercussions . Johnson has already lowered the bar .

    Once you allow politicians a free pass on that you take a hammer and chisel away at democracy .

    The Police would issue FPNs based upon what the law is, not whether someone knew something was a party or not. The law didn't say anything about parties.

    The law is what matters here, no lie has been proven but nor does it need to, the law matters.
  • Jonathan said:

    Worth noting that Sunak has also lied to parliament. "No, I did not attend any parties."

    He has just been fined for attending the Prime Minister's birthday party and singing Happy Birthday.

    Sunak must also resign.

    Sorry, you just have to laugh at this. It's pathetic.
    Pathetic being my comment that he must resign? Or that a cake and "happy birthday" is a party?
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,721

    Jonathan said:

    Worth noting that Sunak has also lied to parliament. "No, I did not attend any parties."

    He has just been fined for attending the Prime Minister's birthday party and singing Happy Birthday.

    Sunak must also resign.

    Sorry, you just have to laugh at this. It's pathetic.
    Pathetic being my comment that he must resign? Or that a cake and "happy birthday" is a party?
    Rishi's defence. Not your comment.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    Andy_JS said:

    Leon said:

    US inflation has just hit 8.5%, and they DON'T have the European energy crisis

    How bad can this get?

    It's odd how their inflation rate is higher than ours, and other European countries. I don't know what the explanation is.
    Their CPI includes rent, ours doesn't
  • IshmaelZ said:

    Leon said:

    Dammit @Leon if your Casa advises on Tripadvisor that it’s open 12 to 10pm it should be bloody well open now..

    Is this the castle you used to swim to?


    Looks like it

    Shame you have iffy weather. Collioure is delightful in the sun
    It was a shame, though my burnt arms and neck would say otherwise. It was still a good place to visit but slightly too touristy for my liking; the streets were packed even on such a gloomy day. I’ve now nearly reached Argelès-Sur-Mer where I’m staying tonight, and my new favourite beer, Cap D’Ona, is brewed. I picked up a couple of bottles from a shop in Collioure and I’m drinking their “Ambrée Triple Bio” which is 7.5% ABV. I’m starting to feel a bit tipsy.. hope the hotel will let me check in!
    You provide a great service in making me feel comfortably out-unitted. Don't stop!
    Very happy to help with that!
  • TimTTimT Posts: 6,468
    edited April 2022
    LOL. Misread this as First All-Primate Astronaut Team Arrives at the International Space Station

    https://gizmodo.com/first-all-private-astronaut-team-arrives-at-the-interna-1848777001
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    Putin dragged Lukashenko to a cosmodrome in far eastern Russia for this. He claims he has secret information about how mysterious “Englishmen” staged a “provocation” in Bucha. Not clear if he means the whole thing is fake or if they murdered hundreds and pretended Russia did it

    https://twitter.com/maxseddon/status/1513877588971855886
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 13,691
    Andy_JS said:

    Leon said:

    US inflation has just hit 8.5%, and they DON'T have the European energy crisis

    How bad can this get?

    It's odd how their inflation rate is higher than ours, and other European countries. I don't know what the explanation is.
    The economy was running hot with these pressures when Biden got in, but he pressed on with promised stimulus package, gasoline to the flames, Heading into election year bust will follow the boom.

    This happens a lot in politics, a heavy defeat related to some of the first decisions of a new administration, misjudging that they really ought to have laid off spending promises.
  • kyf_100kyf_100 Posts: 4,951
    IshmaelZ said:

    kyf_100 said:

    Leon said:

    US inflation has just hit 8.5%, and they DON'T have the European energy crisis

    How bad can this get?

    Further inflationary pressures from the war in Ukraine, food prices up, gas prices up, steel prices up (Europe's biggest steel works was in Ukraine), also a problem with semiconductor chips as half the neon used in production was made in Ukraine.

    Add into that lockdowns in China with all the supply chain shortages that entails and my opinion is we are barely at the beginning of the upward curve.

    We are also seeing wage demands start to rise - a classic wage/inflationary spiral.

    I'm sitting on over 100k in cash and have been thinking about putting it all into gold.
    Current £1,507.96/oz 50 year high £1,574.37 50 year low £18.76 it says here, can I suggest not absolutely every penny in gold?
    The problem with property is it looks toppy what with interest rates due to rise (not that 100k will get you far but I could consider a REIT). Same for the stock markets. (And I'm already invested there).

    When I think about how much sleep I'm losing over the thought of losing 8k a year to inflation, I wonder how companies like Apple are managing to sit on $202 billion in cash.

    There must be an extraordinary amount of money sloshing around looking for a safe investment at the moment. The question is where is safe...

    (Admittedly, it's a nice problem to have while millions will face the dilemma of "heating or eating" later this year)

  • Nigelb said:

    On the whole misleading Parliament thing.
    https://twitter.com/mikeysmith/status/1513871655482929163
    Rishi Sunak, 7 December 2021: “No, I did not attend any parties”

    Its not a lie if he didn't think anything he attended was a party.

    Breaking the law is more serious than that.
    There was a cake. And a singing of Happy Birthday. By Rishi Sunak.

    If he didn't think that was a party...
    I've had cake and sang happy birthday while at work before. Still thought of it as work, not a party.

    If wishing a colleague a happy birthday, while in the office, while at a work meeting is a "party" then you and I have different interpretations of the word party.
    1. Its Covid. You aren't allowed to gather socially. Hence 50 and counting fines issues
    2. Its clearly not work. I have eaten cake at work before. I have had birthday gatherings at work before. You aren't working at that point
    3. They sang "Happy Birthday" over the cake. Ask any child what a birthday party looks like and its a load of your friends in a room singing Happy Birthday over the cake.

    OK, so it wasn't Bunga Bunga like the one where Big Dog Liar waves his can of vaguely beer at the camera. But it clearly was not a work event. Sunak should have known better.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 33,023
    Next Tory leader:

    Truss
    Tugendhat
    Hunt
    Wallace
    Mordaunt
    Javid
    Sunak

    https://www.betfair.com/exchange/plus/politics/market/1.160663234
  • Andy_JS said:

    Leon said:

    US inflation has just hit 8.5%, and they DON'T have the European energy crisis

    How bad can this get?

    It's odd how their inflation rate is higher than ours, and other European countries. I don't know what the explanation is.
    I'd speculate that the basket of goods that are used to account for inflation is quite a bit more heavily weighted to fuel in the US for several reasons, including heating and air conditioning requirements, large distances for transporting goods, relatively inefficient vehicles etc.
  • TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,454
    IshmaelZ said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Leon said:

    US inflation has just hit 8.5%, and they DON'T have the European energy crisis

    How bad can this get?

    It's odd how their inflation rate is higher than ours, and other European countries. I don't know what the explanation is.
    Their CPI includes rent, ours doesn't
    "Private rental prices paid by tenants in the UK rose by 2.3% in the 12 months to February 2022, up from 2.1% in the 12 months to January 2022."

    https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/inflationandpriceindices/bulletins/indexofprivatehousingrentalprices/february2022
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,587

    I’m with Dunt:


    As am I.

    Boris has been an excellent PM in the round, he has handled the biggest issues (Ukraine, Covid, Brexit) extremely well.

    But lawmakers can not be lawbreakers.

    As an analogy, its like an excellent employee who hits all the KPIs who goes on a bender and attacks a colleague - it is gross misconduct, they have to go, even if they've been hitting their KPIs.
    "extremely well" lol. He is a buffoon that leaves a trail of chaos in his wake and is totally unfit for office in every way. I'll give him some credit for his support of Ukraine, but it is no more than any other PM of the last 100 years would have done.
    I'm glad you're willing, begrudgingly, to acknowledge the support for Ukraine but that's not all.

    Got a Brexit deal through Parliament which his predecessor couldn't? ✅
    First country in the world to roll out vaccines? ✅
    First country in Europe to lift lockdown? ✅
    [Thanks to pressure from MPs] didn't put the country into an unnecessary lockdown over Christmas/New Year (unlike Scotland, Wales, NI and rest of Europe)? ✅
    Followed his own laws? ❌

    Plenty of ticks in his column. The red X is gross misconduct though, he has to go regardless of how many credits there are in his column.
    You are just still trying to justify support that until recently was obsequious and obsessive. As Churchill said, even fools are right sometimes, and you are attempting to cherry pick "achievements" to justify your inappropriate fawning of the worst PM in history.
    "cherry pick"

    Covid, Brexit and Ukraine are cherries to you? They're the biggest issues of the last few years, potentially decades, and he handled them well. If Covid, Brexit and Ukraine are cherries then what else should we be looking at?

    But it doesn't matter if he's been one of the best PMs of the modern era on the big issues, he got this one specific one categorically wrong.
    He did not handle Brexit or Covid "well" by any objective measure; and the fact that you think he did is an insult to all those that lost businesses and lives. You keep telling yourself that and eventually even you might believe it. He is an incompetent fuckwit and the worst PM in history. You don't want to see that because you have been trying to convince yourself and others for years that he is some sort of latter day Churchill. You were succoured. He loves people like you. Anyway, must do some work, nice to see you again.
    The time to debate his legacy is after he's been turfed out.
    Which ought to be now.
  • ApplicantApplicant Posts: 3,379
    edited April 2022
    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    On the whole misleading Parliament thing.
    https://twitter.com/mikeysmith/status/1513871655482929163
    Rishi Sunak, 7 December 2021: “No, I did not attend any parties”

    Its not a lie if he didn't think anything he attended was a party.

    Breaking the law is more serious than that.
    There was a cake. And a singing of Happy Birthday. By Rishi Sunak.

    If he didn't think that was a party...
    I've had cake and sang happy birthday while at work before. Still thought of it as work, not a party.

    If wishing a colleague a happy birthday, while in the office, while at a work meeting is a "party" then you and I have different interpretations of the word party.
    Even if that is true, it is hard to argue it was ‘reasonably necessary for work purposes,’ which was the relevant law and should have been comprehensible even to this lot.

    However, Johnson then has to explain how raising his glass of beer to a camera while wishing somebody happy birthday in a non-office location wasn’t a party!
    I would strongly suggest that Boris's opponents avoid detailed arguments about what is or is not a party - it risks clouding the issue which should be very simple: he imposed draconian restrictions on the rest of us, and then failed to follow them. In which case, he felt that either (a) it was safe to ignore the restrictions because they were unnecessary; or (b) the restrictions shouldn't apply just to him (possibly through use of what he thought was a loophole).

    Either way, he needs to go. Whether he lied to Parliament is moot.
  • MISTYMISTY Posts: 1,594

    Sean_F said:

    MISTY said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Applicant said:

    dixiedean said:

    PM, Chancellor to get FPN according to BBC.

    Two rounds of toast.
    Possibly PM Wallace or Javid or Truss by the end of the summer if true.

    Though depends on how bad the polling and local election losses turn out to be for the Tories as to whether Johnson and Sunak survive
    Direct question. The Prime Minister deliberately mislead the House. Repeatedly.

    Do you think he should follow the Ministerial Code and resign?
    Blair did not resign after misleading the House over WMD.
    Thatcher/Belgrano?
    What did she mislead the house about?
    Absolutely nothing. The Belgrano was part of a pincer movement that was a threat to the task force. The decision to sink was a tough one but militarily correct. The loss of life was exacerbated by the supporting Argentine vessels fleeing the scene.
    I never understood the fuss about the Belgrano. Wars are not won by playing nice.
    The essence of war is violence. Moderation in war is imbecility.

    Tam Dalyell,
    Is famous as hell...
  • mwadamsmwadams Posts: 3,679
    Carnyx said:

    Nigelb said:

    On the whole misleading Parliament thing.
    https://twitter.com/mikeysmith/status/1513871655482929163
    Rishi Sunak, 7 December 2021: “No, I did not attend any parties”

    Its not a lie if he didn't think anything he attended was a party.

    Breaking the law is more serious than that.
    Birthday cakes?

    Lots of wine?

    "It didn't have a stripper, and my parties *always* have a stripper"
  • BlancheLivermoreBlancheLivermore Posts: 6,040
    edited April 2022
    dixiedean said:

    This definition of party is getting like Vlad's of a war.
    Perhaps Special Celebratory Operation?

    Oi! That’s the code name for my holiday..
  • bigglesbiggles Posts: 6,274
    “Mr Speaker I was going to resign but I have concluded the chances of Nadine Dorries slipping through the middle of any leadership contest are too high”.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 13,691
    edited April 2022
    Andy_JS said:

    Next Tory leader:

    Truss
    Tugendhat
    Hunt
    Wallace
    Mordaunt
    Javid
    Sunak

    https://www.betfair.com/exchange/plus/politics/market/1.160663234

    And Harper. ERG stable installed last Tory leader, they should be in the frame to win this one too with their runner?

    Tugendhat and Hunt likely to team up to ensure early momentum my Dad said a bit back.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    Putin says the west’s sanctions “blitzkrieg” against Russia has failed thanks to central bank measures to stabilize the economy.

    This is yet more evidence Putin was planning a blitzkrieg of his own: he’s obsessed with projecting his fears and flaws onto others.


    https://twitter.com/maxseddon/status/1513881079345827844
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    All Rishi has to do is swallow hard in front of the press, then go home & count his krugerrands. Boris has to get a job & face five years of Carrie rolling her eyes at him every morning over the breakfast table. If I was Sunak I’d be so tempted

    https://twitter.com/mikeysmith/status/1513871655482929163
  • Nigelb said:

    On the whole misleading Parliament thing.
    https://twitter.com/mikeysmith/status/1513871655482929163
    Rishi Sunak, 7 December 2021: “No, I did not attend any parties”

    Its not a lie if he didn't think anything he attended was a party.

    Breaking the law is more serious than that.
    There was a cake. And a singing of Happy Birthday. By Rishi Sunak.

    If he didn't think that was a party...
    I've had cake and sang happy birthday while at work before. Still thought of it as work, not a party.

    If wishing a colleague a happy birthday, while in the office, while at a work meeting is a "party" then you and I have different interpretations of the word party.
    1. Its Covid. You aren't allowed to gather socially. Hence 50 and counting fines issues
    2. Its clearly not work. I have eaten cake at work before. I have had birthday gatherings at work before. You aren't working at that point
    3. They sang "Happy Birthday" over the cake. Ask any child what a birthday party looks like and its a load of your friends in a room singing Happy Birthday over the cake.

    OK, so it wasn't Bunga Bunga like the one where Big Dog Liar waves his can of vaguely beer at the camera. But it clearly was not a work event. Sunak should have known better.
    Sorry but that's utter bollocks.

    If you gather for work purposes then having a slice of cake and singing happy birthday during your work meeting is not a party and was not against the law either. People who needed to be gathered together for required work purposes were entitled to eat and talk.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,587

    Nigelb said:

    On the whole misleading Parliament thing.
    https://twitter.com/mikeysmith/status/1513871655482929163
    Rishi Sunak, 7 December 2021: “No, I did not attend any parties”

    Its not a lie if he didn't think anything he attended was a party.

    Breaking the law is more serious than that.
    Are the Tories creating a Circumlocution Office, and are you seeking appointment ?
  • mwadamsmwadams Posts: 3,679
    Applicant said:

    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    On the whole misleading Parliament thing.
    https://twitter.com/mikeysmith/status/1513871655482929163
    Rishi Sunak, 7 December 2021: “No, I did not attend any parties”

    Its not a lie if he didn't think anything he attended was a party.

    Breaking the law is more serious than that.
    There was a cake. And a singing of Happy Birthday. By Rishi Sunak.

    If he didn't think that was a party...
    I've had cake and sang happy birthday while at work before. Still thought of it as work, not a party.

    If wishing a colleague a happy birthday, while in the office, while at a work meeting is a "party" then you and I have different interpretations of the word party.
    Even if that is true, it is hard to argue it was ‘reasonably necessary for work purposes,’ which was the relevant law and should have been comprehensible even to this lot.

    However, Johnson then has to explain how raising his glass of beer to a camera while wishing somebody happy birthday in a non-office location wasn’t a party!
    I would strongly suggest that Boris's opponents avoid detailed arguments about what is or is not a party - it risks clouding the issue which should be very simple: he imposed draconian restrictions on the rest of us, and then failed to follow them. In which case, he felt that either (a) it was safe to ignore the restrictions because they were unnecessary; or (b) the restrictions shouldn't apply just to him (possibly through use of what he thought was a loophole.

    Either way, he needs to go. Whether he lied to Parliament is moot.
    This is *not* about the parties any more. Unless he is able to overturn the FPN, they are not in doubt (legally). This is now purely about the layers of lies. No-one should mention the party. Just the FPN and the lies.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,597
    TimT said:

    LOL. Misread this as First All-Primate Astronaut Team Arrives at the International Space Station

    https://gizmodo.com/first-all-private-astronaut-team-arrives-at-the-interna-1848777001

    What is interesting, to me, is that for all the Twatter stuff, Elon Musk and SpaceX have quietly moved real, orbital, space travel forward.

    This is their second entirely private orbital mission.

    Compare with the bizarre parade of Sue Origin or Not So Virgin - all about the publicity.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,932
    Andy_JS said:

    Leon said:

    US inflation has just hit 8.5%, and they DON'T have the European energy crisis

    How bad can this get?

    It's odd how their inflation rate is higher than ours, and other European countries. I don't know what the explanation is.
    A few explanations - auto fuel has a higher weight (once you take into account that tax is half of the price in Europe) so high oil prices have a bigger impact. Supply and demand are especially out of whack for cars, too - used cars are still up 35% y/y despite a drop in March. Core inflation is higher there too because of higher wage growth. European inflation will probably be higher than US inflation later in the year though, because of gas prices.
  • ApplicantApplicant Posts: 3,379
    mwadams said:

    Applicant said:

    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    On the whole misleading Parliament thing.
    https://twitter.com/mikeysmith/status/1513871655482929163
    Rishi Sunak, 7 December 2021: “No, I did not attend any parties”

    Its not a lie if he didn't think anything he attended was a party.

    Breaking the law is more serious than that.
    There was a cake. And a singing of Happy Birthday. By Rishi Sunak.

    If he didn't think that was a party...
    I've had cake and sang happy birthday while at work before. Still thought of it as work, not a party.

    If wishing a colleague a happy birthday, while in the office, while at a work meeting is a "party" then you and I have different interpretations of the word party.
    Even if that is true, it is hard to argue it was ‘reasonably necessary for work purposes,’ which was the relevant law and should have been comprehensible even to this lot.

    However, Johnson then has to explain how raising his glass of beer to a camera while wishing somebody happy birthday in a non-office location wasn’t a party!
    I would strongly suggest that Boris's opponents avoid detailed arguments about what is or is not a party - it risks clouding the issue which should be very simple: he imposed draconian restrictions on the rest of us, and then failed to follow them. In which case, he felt that either (a) it was safe to ignore the restrictions because they were unnecessary; or (b) the restrictions shouldn't apply just to him (possibly through use of what he thought was a loophole.

    Either way, he needs to go. Whether he lied to Parliament is moot.
    This is *not* about the parties any more. Unless he is able to overturn the FPN, they are not in doubt (legally). This is now purely about the layers of lies. No-one should mention the party. Just the FPN and the lies.
    No, the lies are irrelevant and distracting. It's about breaking the law.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 11,775

    Nigelb said:

    On the whole misleading Parliament thing.
    https://twitter.com/mikeysmith/status/1513871655482929163
    Rishi Sunak, 7 December 2021: “No, I did not attend any parties”

    Its not a lie if he didn't think anything he attended was a party.

    Breaking the law is more serious than that.
    There was a cake. And a singing of Happy Birthday. By Rishi Sunak.

    If he didn't think that was a party...
    I've had cake and sang happy birthday while at work before. Still thought of it as work, not a party.

    If wishing a colleague a happy birthday, while in the office, while at a work meeting is a "party" then you and I have different interpretations of the word party.
    1. Its Covid. You aren't allowed to gather socially. Hence 50 and counting fines issues
    2. Its clearly not work. I have eaten cake at work before. I have had birthday gatherings at work before. You aren't working at that point
    3. They sang "Happy Birthday" over the cake. Ask any child what a birthday party looks like and its a load of your friends in a room singing Happy Birthday over the cake.

    OK, so it wasn't Bunga Bunga like the one where Big Dog Liar waves his can of vaguely beer at the camera. But it clearly was not a work event. Sunak should have known better.
    Sorry but that's utter bollocks.

    If you gather for work purposes then having a slice of cake and singing happy birthday during your work meeting is not a party and was not against the law either. People who needed to be gathered together for required work purposes were entitled to eat and talk.
    Carrie attended. Carrie had no reason to be there for a work meeting. Ergo, not a work meeting. Law broken.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,334
    If the Labour lead is less than 10% that will be an OK result for Boris after today
  • bigglesbiggles Posts: 6,274
    edited April 2022

    Andy_JS said:

    Next Tory leader:

    Truss
    Tugendhat
    Hunt
    Wallace
    Mordaunt
    Javid
    Sunak

    https://www.betfair.com/exchange/plus/politics/market/1.160663234

    And Harper. ERG stable installed last Tory leader, they should be in the frame to win this one too with their runner?
    Because of Ukraine, I’d think there’d be pressure to make it a coronation. To me that says Truss, Wallace, or Tugendhat (though his lack of a Gvt experience might be the issue, and I doubt he’ll commit to be sufficiently gung-ho on the NI Protocol). Hunt might squeeze in by outflanking them on the right re: NI.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,618

    Sean_F said:

    MISTY said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Applicant said:

    dixiedean said:

    PM, Chancellor to get FPN according to BBC.

    Two rounds of toast.
    Possibly PM Wallace or Javid or Truss by the end of the summer if true.

    Though depends on how bad the polling and local election losses turn out to be for the Tories as to whether Johnson and Sunak survive
    Direct question. The Prime Minister deliberately mislead the House. Repeatedly.

    Do you think he should follow the Ministerial Code and resign?
    Blair did not resign after misleading the House over WMD.
    Thatcher/Belgrano?
    What did she mislead the house about?
    Absolutely nothing. The Belgrano was part of a pincer movement that was a threat to the task force. The decision to sink was a tough one but militarily correct. The loss of life was exacerbated by the supporting Argentine vessels fleeing the scene.
    I never understood the fuss about the Belgrano. Wars are not won by playing nice.
    The essence of war is violence. Moderation in war is imbecility.

    Quite so.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,932
    HYUFD said:

    If the Labour lead is less than 10% that will be an OK result for Boris after today
    I salute your expectations management.
  • IshmaelZ said:

    All Rishi has to do is swallow hard in front of the press, then go home & count his krugerrands. Boris has to get a job & face five years of Carrie rolling her eyes at him every morning over the breakfast table. If I was Sunak I’d be so tempted

    https://twitter.com/mikeysmith/status/1513871655482929163

    Rishi Sunak is only 41, and a week is a long time etc. If he "does the honourable thing" the attention instantly goes to the PM, and there is a way back for him. And, if things don't move in the right direction for him, he can slip away at the next election to spend more time with his wife's money as you say.

    I don't think it's in his DNA to do it, but it does make a lot of sense.
  • mwadamsmwadams Posts: 3,679
    Applicant said:

    mwadams said:

    Applicant said:

    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    On the whole misleading Parliament thing.
    https://twitter.com/mikeysmith/status/1513871655482929163
    Rishi Sunak, 7 December 2021: “No, I did not attend any parties”

    Its not a lie if he didn't think anything he attended was a party.

    Breaking the law is more serious than that.
    There was a cake. And a singing of Happy Birthday. By Rishi Sunak.

    If he didn't think that was a party...
    I've had cake and sang happy birthday while at work before. Still thought of it as work, not a party.

    If wishing a colleague a happy birthday, while in the office, while at a work meeting is a "party" then you and I have different interpretations of the word party.
    Even if that is true, it is hard to argue it was ‘reasonably necessary for work purposes,’ which was the relevant law and should have been comprehensible even to this lot.

    However, Johnson then has to explain how raising his glass of beer to a camera while wishing somebody happy birthday in a non-office location wasn’t a party!
    I would strongly suggest that Boris's opponents avoid detailed arguments about what is or is not a party - it risks clouding the issue which should be very simple: he imposed draconian restrictions on the rest of us, and then failed to follow them. In which case, he felt that either (a) it was safe to ignore the restrictions because they were unnecessary; or (b) the restrictions shouldn't apply just to him (possibly through use of what he thought was a loophole.

    Either way, he needs to go. Whether he lied to Parliament is moot.
    This is *not* about the parties any more. Unless he is able to overturn the FPN, they are not in doubt (legally). This is now purely about the layers of lies. No-one should mention the party. Just the FPN and the lies.
    No, the lies are irrelevant and distracting. It's about breaking the law.
    AIUI there's no obligation to resign for that. But the thing that *does* oblige him to resign is lying to Parliament, under the ministerial code. So "breaking the law" is in fact a distraction from the resigning offence.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    IshmaelZ said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Leon said:

    US inflation has just hit 8.5%, and they DON'T have the European energy crisis

    How bad can this get?

    It's odd how their inflation rate is higher than ours, and other European countries. I don't know what the explanation is.
    Their CPI includes rent, ours doesn't
    "Private rental prices paid by tenants in the UK rose by 2.3% in the 12 months to February 2022, up from 2.1% in the 12 months to January 2022."

    https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/inflationandpriceindices/bulletins/indexofprivatehousingrentalprices/february2022
    It's 39% in Miami, and that is in CPI. Our 2.3% isn't
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 13,691
    It’s a good betting point Big G. Tory lead in April looks a worse bet than it did this morning (ignore Survation whose polls trend friendly to Labour, the monthly Kantor poll if any could give Tories their first lead for a while).

    Also there is a UK election campaign on, a very good May result for Johnson could mean June general election, a disappointing Conservative night might put a bit of pressure on Johnson.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,637

    HYUFD said:

    If the Labour lead is less than 10% that will be an OK result for Boris after today
    I salute your expectations management.
    Is that echo of Mr Galloway deliberate, I wonder?
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,597

    Sean_F said:

    MISTY said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Applicant said:

    dixiedean said:

    PM, Chancellor to get FPN according to BBC.

    Two rounds of toast.
    Possibly PM Wallace or Javid or Truss by the end of the summer if true.

    Though depends on how bad the polling and local election losses turn out to be for the Tories as to whether Johnson and Sunak survive
    Direct question. The Prime Minister deliberately mislead the House. Repeatedly.

    Do you think he should follow the Ministerial Code and resign?
    Blair did not resign after misleading the House over WMD.
    Thatcher/Belgrano?
    What did she mislead the house about?
    Absolutely nothing. The Belgrano was part of a pincer movement that was a threat to the task force. The decision to sink was a tough one but militarily correct. The loss of life was exacerbated by the supporting Argentine vessels fleeing the scene.
    I never understood the fuss about the Belgrano. Wars are not won by playing nice.
    The essence of war is violence. Moderation in war is imbecility.

    Long time back, there was a very good documentary series by the BBC on the Falklands. They got everyone involved at a senior level, except Galteri, Thatcher and Reagan to participate.

    The Commander of the Argentine Navy said the Belgians was in a mission to attack the task force. The captain of the Belgians said that he was on a mission to attack the task force. He also has instructions to attack any Royal Navy ships he happened across - such as submarines.

    The U.K. government knew, because the NSA was sending decrypts of Argentine communications in real-time - the contents of these was disclosed by Julian Assange and Wikileaks, in one of their data dumps.

  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    OPERATIONAL NOTE

    We are waiting for Tory MPs - especially the cabinet - to issue messages of support for Boris Johnson and Rishi Sunak

    The spreadsheet is waiting to record the timing of your statements of support

    Just a tweet will do

    @TomLarkinSky


    https://twitter.com/SamCoatesSky/status/1513882757457395712
  • mwadams said:

    Applicant said:

    mwadams said:

    Applicant said:

    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    On the whole misleading Parliament thing.
    https://twitter.com/mikeysmith/status/1513871655482929163
    Rishi Sunak, 7 December 2021: “No, I did not attend any parties”

    Its not a lie if he didn't think anything he attended was a party.

    Breaking the law is more serious than that.
    There was a cake. And a singing of Happy Birthday. By Rishi Sunak.

    If he didn't think that was a party...
    I've had cake and sang happy birthday while at work before. Still thought of it as work, not a party.

    If wishing a colleague a happy birthday, while in the office, while at a work meeting is a "party" then you and I have different interpretations of the word party.
    Even if that is true, it is hard to argue it was ‘reasonably necessary for work purposes,’ which was the relevant law and should have been comprehensible even to this lot.

    However, Johnson then has to explain how raising his glass of beer to a camera while wishing somebody happy birthday in a non-office location wasn’t a party!
    I would strongly suggest that Boris's opponents avoid detailed arguments about what is or is not a party - it risks clouding the issue which should be very simple: he imposed draconian restrictions on the rest of us, and then failed to follow them. In which case, he felt that either (a) it was safe to ignore the restrictions because they were unnecessary; or (b) the restrictions shouldn't apply just to him (possibly through use of what he thought was a loophole.

    Either way, he needs to go. Whether he lied to Parliament is moot.
    This is *not* about the parties any more. Unless he is able to overturn the FPN, they are not in doubt (legally). This is now purely about the layers of lies. No-one should mention the party. Just the FPN and the lies.
    No, the lies are irrelevant and distracting. It's about breaking the law.
    AIUI there's no obligation to resign for that. But the thing that *does* oblige him to resign is lying to Parliament, under the ministerial code. So "breaking the law" is in fact a distraction from the resigning offence.
    Lawmakers can not be lawbreakers, so that is a resigning offence.

    Lying to Parliament has not been proven. It doesn't need to be though, lawmakers can not be lawbreakers.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 36,118
    A senior Tory MP messages: “He’s going to hang on and destroy the house like Samson tearing down the walls of the temple.”
    https://twitter.com/NJ_Timothy/status/1513880978145660933
  • Postal votes land on doormats early next week (and this week in Scotland, I think). Just saying.
  • Nigelb said:

    On the whole misleading Parliament thing.
    https://twitter.com/mikeysmith/status/1513871655482929163
    Rishi Sunak, 7 December 2021: “No, I did not attend any parties”

    Its not a lie if he didn't think anything he attended was a party.

    Breaking the law is more serious than that.
    There was a cake. And a singing of Happy Birthday. By Rishi Sunak.

    If he didn't think that was a party...
    I've had cake and sang happy birthday while at work before. Still thought of it as work, not a party.

    If wishing a colleague a happy birthday, while in the office, while at a work meeting is a "party" then you and I have different interpretations of the word party.
    1. Its Covid. You aren't allowed to gather socially. Hence 50 and counting fines issues
    2. Its clearly not work. I have eaten cake at work before. I have had birthday gatherings at work before. You aren't working at that point
    3. They sang "Happy Birthday" over the cake. Ask any child what a birthday party looks like and its a load of your friends in a room singing Happy Birthday over the cake.

    OK, so it wasn't Bunga Bunga like the one where Big Dog Liar waves his can of vaguely beer at the camera. But it clearly was not a work event. Sunak should have known better.
    Sorry but that's utter bollocks.

    If you gather for work purposes then having a slice of cake and singing happy birthday during your work meeting is not a party and was not against the law either. People who needed to be gathered together for required work purposes were entitled to eat and talk.
    The Metropolitan Police clearly disagree.
  • mwadams said:

    Applicant said:

    mwadams said:

    Applicant said:

    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    On the whole misleading Parliament thing.
    https://twitter.com/mikeysmith/status/1513871655482929163
    Rishi Sunak, 7 December 2021: “No, I did not attend any parties”

    Its not a lie if he didn't think anything he attended was a party.

    Breaking the law is more serious than that.
    There was a cake. And a singing of Happy Birthday. By Rishi Sunak.

    If he didn't think that was a party...
    I've had cake and sang happy birthday while at work before. Still thought of it as work, not a party.

    If wishing a colleague a happy birthday, while in the office, while at a work meeting is a "party" then you and I have different interpretations of the word party.
    Even if that is true, it is hard to argue it was ‘reasonably necessary for work purposes,’ which was the relevant law and should have been comprehensible even to this lot.

    However, Johnson then has to explain how raising his glass of beer to a camera while wishing somebody happy birthday in a non-office location wasn’t a party!
    I would strongly suggest that Boris's opponents avoid detailed arguments about what is or is not a party - it risks clouding the issue which should be very simple: he imposed draconian restrictions on the rest of us, and then failed to follow them. In which case, he felt that either (a) it was safe to ignore the restrictions because they were unnecessary; or (b) the restrictions shouldn't apply just to him (possibly through use of what he thought was a loophole.

    Either way, he needs to go. Whether he lied to Parliament is moot.
    This is *not* about the parties any more. Unless he is able to overturn the FPN, they are not in doubt (legally). This is now purely about the layers of lies. No-one should mention the party. Just the FPN and the lies.
    No, the lies are irrelevant and distracting. It's about breaking the law.
    AIUI there's no obligation to resign for that. But the thing that *does* oblige him to resign is lying to Parliament, under the ministerial code. So "breaking the law" is in fact a distraction from the resigning offence.
    Lawmakers can not be lawbreakers, so that is a resigning offence.

    Lying to Parliament has not been proven. It doesn't need to be though, lawmakers can not be lawbreakers.
    1. "I did not attend a party"
    2. Fined for attending a party
    3. Q.E.D.

    Proven.
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 7,085
    Wow.

    Make or break time for Johnson ... and the tories?

    Do they do what they have to do to regain public trust over the next two years? Or do they really go the John Major route and sink the tories for a generation?
  • mwadamsmwadams Posts: 3,679

    mwadams said:

    Applicant said:

    mwadams said:

    Applicant said:

    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    On the whole misleading Parliament thing.
    https://twitter.com/mikeysmith/status/1513871655482929163
    Rishi Sunak, 7 December 2021: “No, I did not attend any parties”

    Its not a lie if he didn't think anything he attended was a party.

    Breaking the law is more serious than that.
    There was a cake. And a singing of Happy Birthday. By Rishi Sunak.

    If he didn't think that was a party...
    I've had cake and sang happy birthday while at work before. Still thought of it as work, not a party.

    If wishing a colleague a happy birthday, while in the office, while at a work meeting is a "party" then you and I have different interpretations of the word party.
    Even if that is true, it is hard to argue it was ‘reasonably necessary for work purposes,’ which was the relevant law and should have been comprehensible even to this lot.

    However, Johnson then has to explain how raising his glass of beer to a camera while wishing somebody happy birthday in a non-office location wasn’t a party!
    I would strongly suggest that Boris's opponents avoid detailed arguments about what is or is not a party - it risks clouding the issue which should be very simple: he imposed draconian restrictions on the rest of us, and then failed to follow them. In which case, he felt that either (a) it was safe to ignore the restrictions because they were unnecessary; or (b) the restrictions shouldn't apply just to him (possibly through use of what he thought was a loophole.

    Either way, he needs to go. Whether he lied to Parliament is moot.
    This is *not* about the parties any more. Unless he is able to overturn the FPN, they are not in doubt (legally). This is now purely about the layers of lies. No-one should mention the party. Just the FPN and the lies.
    No, the lies are irrelevant and distracting. It's about breaking the law.
    AIUI there's no obligation to resign for that. But the thing that *does* oblige him to resign is lying to Parliament, under the ministerial code. So "breaking the law" is in fact a distraction from the resigning offence.
    Lawmakers can not be lawbreakers, so that is a resigning offence.

    Lying to Parliament has not been proven. It doesn't need to be though, lawmakers can not be lawbreakers.
    Should not, I agree- morally, they should resign for that; especially in this case. But this government and most of the parliamentary party has proven that it doesn't give a fig for that. They all knew they had done wrong and hoped to get away with it.

    But there is a specific requirement in the ministerial code to resign if you have been found to have been lying to parliament. This is as clear a case of that as you will ever see.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,878
    Nigelb said:

    Several people shot and multiple explosives found at New York City subway station

    #Brooklyn l #NY
    Police confirm explosive devices are present at the 36th Street station. Several people are down. Trains are being halted.

    https://twitter.com/IntelPointAlert/status/1513869148505391108

    Not now, Allah
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,981
    edited April 2022
    mwadams said:

    Applicant said:

    mwadams said:

    Applicant said:

    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    On the whole misleading Parliament thing.
    https://twitter.com/mikeysmith/status/1513871655482929163
    Rishi Sunak, 7 December 2021: “No, I did not attend any parties”

    Its not a lie if he didn't think anything he attended was a party.

    Breaking the law is more serious than that.
    There was a cake. And a singing of Happy Birthday. By Rishi Sunak.

    If he didn't think that was a party...
    I've had cake and sang happy birthday while at work before. Still thought of it as work, not a party.

    If wishing a colleague a happy birthday, while in the office, while at a work meeting is a "party" then you and I have different interpretations of the word party.
    Even if that is true, it is hard to argue it was ‘reasonably necessary for work purposes,’ which was the relevant law and should have been comprehensible even to this lot.

    However, Johnson then has to explain how raising his glass of beer to a camera while wishing somebody happy birthday in a non-office location wasn’t a party!
    I would strongly suggest that Boris's opponents avoid detailed arguments about what is or is not a party - it risks clouding the issue which should be very simple: he imposed draconian restrictions on the rest of us, and then failed to follow them. In which case, he felt that either (a) it was safe to ignore the restrictions because they were unnecessary; or (b) the restrictions shouldn't apply just to him (possibly through use of what he thought was a loophole.

    Either way, he needs to go. Whether he lied to Parliament is moot.
    This is *not* about the parties any more. Unless he is able to overturn the FPN, they are not in doubt (legally). This is now purely about the layers of lies. No-one should mention the party. Just the FPN and the lies.
    No, the lies are irrelevant and distracting. It's about breaking the law.
    AIUI there's no obligation to resign for that. But the thing that *does* oblige him to resign is lying to Parliament, under the ministerial code. So "breaking the law" is in fact a distraction from the resigning offence.
    An obligation is only an obligation insofar as it is enforceable. SFAICS no-one has the power the enforce this one. So, in the modern world, an obligation it is not.
    The only power with leverage is that possessed by Tory MPs to force a VONC among the Tory MPs, and the power of the opposition to force a VONC in the House of Commons.

    Good luck with both of those.

    PS Truss will not be the next leader.

  • mwadams said:

    Applicant said:

    mwadams said:

    Applicant said:

    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    On the whole misleading Parliament thing.
    https://twitter.com/mikeysmith/status/1513871655482929163
    Rishi Sunak, 7 December 2021: “No, I did not attend any parties”

    Its not a lie if he didn't think anything he attended was a party.

    Breaking the law is more serious than that.
    There was a cake. And a singing of Happy Birthday. By Rishi Sunak.

    If he didn't think that was a party...
    I've had cake and sang happy birthday while at work before. Still thought of it as work, not a party.

    If wishing a colleague a happy birthday, while in the office, while at a work meeting is a "party" then you and I have different interpretations of the word party.
    Even if that is true, it is hard to argue it was ‘reasonably necessary for work purposes,’ which was the relevant law and should have been comprehensible even to this lot.

    However, Johnson then has to explain how raising his glass of beer to a camera while wishing somebody happy birthday in a non-office location wasn’t a party!
    I would strongly suggest that Boris's opponents avoid detailed arguments about what is or is not a party - it risks clouding the issue which should be very simple: he imposed draconian restrictions on the rest of us, and then failed to follow them. In which case, he felt that either (a) it was safe to ignore the restrictions because they were unnecessary; or (b) the restrictions shouldn't apply just to him (possibly through use of what he thought was a loophole.

    Either way, he needs to go. Whether he lied to Parliament is moot.
    This is *not* about the parties any more. Unless he is able to overturn the FPN, they are not in doubt (legally). This is now purely about the layers of lies. No-one should mention the party. Just the FPN and the lies.
    No, the lies are irrelevant and distracting. It's about breaking the law.
    AIUI there's no obligation to resign for that. But the thing that *does* oblige him to resign is lying to Parliament, under the ministerial code. So "breaking the law" is in fact a distraction from the resigning offence.
    Lawmakers can not be lawbreakers, so that is a resigning offence.

    Lying to Parliament has not been proven. It doesn't need to be though, lawmakers can not be lawbreakers.
    1. "I did not attend a party"
    2. Fined for attending a party
    3. Q.E.D.

    Proven.
    2. Fined for attending a party breaking the law.

    Fines have nothing to do with parties, it has to do with the law. Lawbreaking does not require parties.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,569

    mwadams said:

    Applicant said:

    mwadams said:

    Applicant said:

    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    On the whole misleading Parliament thing.
    https://twitter.com/mikeysmith/status/1513871655482929163
    Rishi Sunak, 7 December 2021: “No, I did not attend any parties”

    Its not a lie if he didn't think anything he attended was a party.

    Breaking the law is more serious than that.
    There was a cake. And a singing of Happy Birthday. By Rishi Sunak.

    If he didn't think that was a party...
    I've had cake and sang happy birthday while at work before. Still thought of it as work, not a party.

    If wishing a colleague a happy birthday, while in the office, while at a work meeting is a "party" then you and I have different interpretations of the word party.
    Even if that is true, it is hard to argue it was ‘reasonably necessary for work purposes,’ which was the relevant law and should have been comprehensible even to this lot.

    However, Johnson then has to explain how raising his glass of beer to a camera while wishing somebody happy birthday in a non-office location wasn’t a party!
    I would strongly suggest that Boris's opponents avoid detailed arguments about what is or is not a party - it risks clouding the issue which should be very simple: he imposed draconian restrictions on the rest of us, and then failed to follow them. In which case, he felt that either (a) it was safe to ignore the restrictions because they were unnecessary; or (b) the restrictions shouldn't apply just to him (possibly through use of what he thought was a loophole.

    Either way, he needs to go. Whether he lied to Parliament is moot.
    This is *not* about the parties any more. Unless he is able to overturn the FPN, they are not in doubt (legally). This is now purely about the layers of lies. No-one should mention the party. Just the FPN and the lies.
    No, the lies are irrelevant and distracting. It's about breaking the law.
    AIUI there's no obligation to resign for that. But the thing that *does* oblige him to resign is lying to Parliament, under the ministerial code. So "breaking the law" is in fact a distraction from the resigning offence.
    Lawmakers can not be lawbreakers, so that is a resigning offence.

    Lying to Parliament has not been proven. It doesn't need to be though, lawmakers can not be lawbreakers.
    Excellent principle, they certainly shouldn't, but the empirical evidence is that they can... at least until the next election.
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