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Remember Starmer can be next PM even if CON wins most seats – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,218
edited March 2022 in General
imageRemember Starmer can be next PM even if CON wins most seats – politicalbetting.com

For almost the last three months I have been saying that Starmer for next PM is one of the better political bets at the moment. He’s currently a 14% chance on Betfair which has moved up a fair bit since the 8-9% betting chance he was on in January when the narrative was that Johnson would be booted out.

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    Convinced
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,983
    Lets hope so and let's hope it's soon. The present one is unbearable
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,987
    I would agree that Starmer could become PM if the Tories win most seats, provided Labour + LD + SNP is more than Tories + DUP and it is a hung parliament.

    Johnson would also have to invoke Art 16 to get DUP support again, the DUP the only party who might still support the Tories in a hung parliament
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/mar/11/ukraine-military-drone-crashes-into-croatian-capital-zagreb

    Armed attack on NATO country by Ukraine on the face of it.

    Sorry guys but rules are rules
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,679
    IshmaelZ said:

    Convinced

    No, keep the faith Ishmael about Johnson getting the bullet! I might disagree but I like to read that take.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 14,080
    FPT:
    Leon said:

    Grim

    Hong Kong’s Hospital Authority has asked the public to understand its difficulties with saturated mortuaries amid the city’s Covid-19 crisis, as an image of bodies lying next to living patients on a hospital ward surfaced online.
    https://hongkongfp.com/2022/03/11/covid-19-hong-kong-hospital-authority-urges-understanding-as-shocking-photo-emerges-of-bodies-stored-on-ward/


    https://twitter.com/tomgrundy/status/1502229988481052674

    Now multiply that by a thousand if omicron goes to work in China. As it might already be doing.


    “Mainland China reported over 1,000 new COVID-19 infections in dozens of cities, the highest daily count in about two years, with the Omicron variant forcing a northeastern city to go under lockdown and the financial hub Shanghai to close schools.”

    https://twitter.com/reuters_health/status/1502264336911376387?s=21
    I was speculating on this the other day.

    Will Omicron get to China? Almost certainly - you can't lockdown your way out of this one.

    Will it result in major health problems? I had thought not - Omicron being mild and all that - but maybe HK gives the lie to that. Does HK have issues with vaccines (takeup/mix of vaccines (is Sinovac any good?)/how boosted are they?) Do the same things apply in China? But even if it does strike, my expectation is that it won't strike hard for long - a peak, and then waning by four weeks later.

    Will the Chinese state's response have implications? Quite probably. They are still apparently wedded to zero covid. They will try to lockdown their way out of it. This could by March 2020 on steroids for them. Conceivably they could try to bring China to a complete standstill.

    Which would be something of a nuisance for the already precarious world economy - but could also have an ameliorative effect on fuel prices and other commodities.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 52,302
    India has accidentally fired a missile into Pakistan.

    @shreyadhoundial
    Just IN : Govt of India statement on the ' Missile Incident ' raised by Pakistan

    * During regular mantainance a technical malfunction led to the accidental firing of a missile. It landed in Pakistan.

    * A high-level Court of Enquiry ordered.

    * Incident deeply regrettable


    https://twitter.com/shreyadhoundial/status/1502272187163877382
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,987
    MISTY said:

    I'm not as virulently opposed to Donald Trump as many on here, but I had to smile at his latest comments on Ukraine.

    'the trouble with Putin is that he's got a very big ego....'

    LOL the ultimate political pot/kettle, surely.

    Interesting Trump comments there and he did call Putin's invasion 'a crime against humanity.'

    'I rebuilt our whole nuclear arsenal. Stronger, bigger and better than ever before.


    'It's better and bigger than Russia. He should say we are a nuclear nation, we don't want war and we don't want to wipe out Russia.

    'This is the way he should be talking, he isn't talking about our nuclear capability.

    'Instead, he keeps saying that they are a nuclear nation, we don't want war. He is playing right into Putin's hands when he does that....Maybe they understood me even better, that's OK, because they knew there'd be a big penalty.'

    Trump added that the Russian invasion of Ukraine 'truly is a crime against humanity' which 'has to end soon'.

    'The problem with Putin is he's got a very big ego,' he explained.
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10601975/Trump-tears-Biden-playing-Putins-hands.html
  • MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,382
    HYUFD said:

    I would agree that Starmer could become PM if the Tories win most seats, provided Labour + LD + SNP is more than Tories + DUP and it is a hung parliament.

    Johnson would also have to invoke Art 16 to get DUP support again, the DUP the only party who might still support the Tories in a hung parliament

    The DUP look set to lose most of their current seats
  • MISTYMISTY Posts: 1,594
    HYUFD said:

    MISTY said:

    I'm not as virulently opposed to Donald Trump as many on here, but I had to smile at his latest comments on Ukraine.

    'the trouble with Putin is that he's got a very big ego....'

    LOL the ultimate political pot/kettle, surely.

    Interesting Trump comments there and he did call Putin's invasion 'a crime against humanity.'

    'I rebuilt our whole nuclear arsenal. Stronger, bigger and better than ever before.


    'It's better and bigger than Russia. He should say we are a nuclear nation, we don't want war and we don't want to wipe out Russia.

    'This is the way he should be talking, he isn't talking about our nuclear capability.

    'Instead, he keeps saying that they are a nuclear nation, we don't want war. He is playing right into Putin's hands when he does that....Maybe they understood me even better, that's OK, because they knew there'd be a big penalty.'

    Trump added that the Russian invasion of Ukraine 'truly is a crime against humanity' which 'has to end soon'.

    'The problem with Putin is he's got a very big ego,' he explained.
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10601975/Trump-tears-Biden-playing-Putins-hands.html
    Yes it goes back to the argument as to whether any major Western leader would ever use a nuclear weapon under any circumstances at all.

    you get the impression that some really would not.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,806
    edited March 2022
    IshmaelZ said:

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/mar/11/ukraine-military-drone-crashes-into-croatian-capital-zagreb

    Armed attack on NATO country by Ukraine on the face of it.

    Sorry guys but rules are rules

    Er... it was a Ukraine drone, and unarmed.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,533
    edited March 2022
    Cookie said:

    FPT:

    Leon said:

    Grim

    Hong Kong’s Hospital Authority has asked the public to understand its difficulties with saturated mortuaries amid the city’s Covid-19 crisis, as an image of bodies lying next to living patients on a hospital ward surfaced online.
    https://hongkongfp.com/2022/03/11/covid-19-hong-kong-hospital-authority-urges-understanding-as-shocking-photo-emerges-of-bodies-stored-on-ward/


    https://twitter.com/tomgrundy/status/1502229988481052674

    Now multiply that by a thousand if omicron goes to work in China. As it might already be doing.


    “Mainland China reported over 1,000 new COVID-19 infections in dozens of cities, the highest daily count in about two years, with the Omicron variant forcing a northeastern city to go under lockdown and the financial hub Shanghai to close schools.”

    https://twitter.com/reuters_health/status/1502264336911376387?s=21
    I was speculating on this the other day.

    Will Omicron get to China? Almost certainly - you can't lockdown your way out of this one.

    Will it result in major health problems? I had thought not - Omicron being mild and all that - but maybe HK gives the lie to that. Does HK have issues with vaccines (takeup/mix of vaccines (is Sinovac any good?)/how boosted are they?) Do the same things apply in China? But even if it does strike, my expectation is that it won't strike hard for long - a peak, and then waning by four weeks later.

    Will the Chinese state's response have implications? Quite probably. They are still apparently wedded to zero covid. They will try to lockdown their way out of it. This could by March 2020 on steroids for them. Conceivably they could try to bring China to a complete standstill.

    Which would be something of a nuisance for the already precarious world economy - but could also have an ameliorative effect on fuel prices and other commodities.
    Hong Kong is suffering the highest official death rate per capita of any jurisdiction during the pandemic ....

    The resulting surge in infections has overwhelmed the public healthcare system, stretching the capacity of isolation wards, intensive care facilities and mortuaries to their limit. Patients are routinely turned away from hospitals, while high-risk elderly admissions have been left waiting outside, sometimes in the cold.

    (https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/3/9/in-zero-covid-hong-kong-deaths-smash-global-records

    now that is put down to poor vaccine uptake among the elderly in Hong Kong, but the Chinese vaccines are a bag of shit, so there is no certainty even if there were jabbed with Chinese vaccines it would be helping that much. One just doesn't work and the other the protection wanes really quickly (such that in places like Chile they went round and gave everybody 2 more jabs of Pfizer).
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,806
    MISTY said:

    HYUFD said:

    MISTY said:

    I'm not as virulently opposed to Donald Trump as many on here, but I had to smile at his latest comments on Ukraine.

    'the trouble with Putin is that he's got a very big ego....'

    LOL the ultimate political pot/kettle, surely.

    Interesting Trump comments there and he did call Putin's invasion 'a crime against humanity.'

    'I rebuilt our whole nuclear arsenal. Stronger, bigger and better than ever before.


    'It's better and bigger than Russia. He should say we are a nuclear nation, we don't want war and we don't want to wipe out Russia.

    'This is the way he should be talking, he isn't talking about our nuclear capability.

    'Instead, he keeps saying that they are a nuclear nation, we don't want war. He is playing right into Putin's hands when he does that....Maybe they understood me even better, that's OK, because they knew there'd be a big penalty.'

    Trump added that the Russian invasion of Ukraine 'truly is a crime against humanity' which 'has to end soon'.

    'The problem with Putin is he's got a very big ego,' he explained.
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10601975/Trump-tears-Biden-playing-Putins-hands.html
    Yes it goes back to the argument as to whether any major Western leader would ever use a nuclear weapon under any circumstances at all.

    you get the impression that some really would not.
    I can't think of one. (Corbyn, I grant you, if he had become a Western leader but he didn't.)
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,987

    HYUFD said:

    I would agree that Starmer could become PM if the Tories win most seats, provided Labour + LD + SNP is more than Tories + DUP and it is a hung parliament.

    Johnson would also have to invoke Art 16 to get DUP support again, the DUP the only party who might still support the Tories in a hung parliament

    The DUP look set to lose most of their current seats
    Not really, most of them are in staunch Unionist areas and if they did lose some of them they would go to the TUV who are even harder line or the UUP who also oppose the NI Protocol.

    In any case the last poll had the DUP back up a bit to a clear second on 19% and that was for Stormont, at FPTP Westminster fewer would vote TUV and more DUP
  • HYUFD said:

    I would agree that Starmer could become PM if the Tories win most seats, provided Labour + LD + SNP is more than Tories + DUP and it is a hung parliament.

    Johnson would also have to invoke Art 16 to get DUP support again, the DUP the only party who might still support the Tories in a hung parliament

    Can't understand why you think the DUP would want to do business with your party after last time...
  • BigRichBigRich Posts: 3,492
    Leon said:

    BigRich said:

    Leon said:

    Panic buying in Shanghai. Could get messy

    Panic Buying dew to Covid/lockdown fears or war/global food shortages fears,

    Or both?
    Covid & lockdown. Because Omicron BA2

    See Hong Kong for the possible short term future of China

    One problem is their reliance on Sinovac (used a lot in HK) which, it turns out, offers almost no protection at all against omicron. So if you’ve just had two sinovac shots then you’re essentially unvaccinated.

    One fascinating (if morbid) comparisons at the moment is to look at New Zeeland compared to Hong Kong, for both this is there first big wave. and are recording similar numbers of COVID cases, (slightly more in HK than NZ but HK doing a bit more testing) and both are vaccinated to a high degree a bit more in NZ but not a lot 1.85 Doses per person against 2.11 but over the last week the death rate in HK is roughly 50 times that of NZ 5 per million v 235
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,606
    edited March 2022
    Cookie said:

    FPT:

    Leon said:

    Grim

    Hong Kong’s Hospital Authority has asked the public to understand its difficulties with saturated mortuaries amid the city’s Covid-19 crisis, as an image of bodies lying next to living patients on a hospital ward surfaced online.
    https://hongkongfp.com/2022/03/11/covid-19-hong-kong-hospital-authority-urges-understanding-as-shocking-photo-emerges-of-bodies-stored-on-ward/


    https://twitter.com/tomgrundy/status/1502229988481052674

    Now multiply that by a thousand if omicron goes to work in China. As it might already be doing.


    “Mainland China reported over 1,000 new COVID-19 infections in dozens of cities, the highest daily count in about two years, with the Omicron variant forcing a northeastern city to go under lockdown and the financial hub Shanghai to close schools.”

    https://twitter.com/reuters_health/status/1502264336911376387?s=21
    I was speculating on this the other day.

    Will Omicron get to China? Almost certainly - you can't lockdown your way out of this one.

    Will it result in major health problems? I had thought not - Omicron being mild and all that - but maybe HK gives the lie to that. Does HK have issues with vaccines (takeup/mix of vaccines (is Sinovac any good?)/how boosted are they?) Do the same things apply in China? But even if it does strike, my expectation is that it won't strike hard for long - a peak, and then waning by four weeks later.

    Will the Chinese state's response have implications? Quite probably. They are still apparently wedded to zero covid. They will try to lockdown their way out of it. This could by March 2020 on steroids for them. Conceivably they could try to bring China to a complete standstill.

    Which would be something of a nuisance for the already precarious world economy - but could also have an ameliorative effect on fuel prices and other commodities.
    China has a high level of vaccination, but they used a lot of Sinovac (useless against Omicron).

    They are now boostering as fast as they can (presumably with MRNA?), but they've only got to 35% or so

    https://ourworldindata.org/covid-vaccinations

    Quite possible they could see a Hong Kong type situation in multiple cities. A short, sharp pretty hideous shock, and a lot of dead old people

    HK has a a real problem with older vax refuseniks; not sure if that is the case on the mainland
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,950
    IshmaelZ said:

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/mar/11/ukraine-military-drone-crashes-into-croatian-capital-zagreb

    Armed attack on NATO country by Ukraine on the face of it.

    Sorry guys but rules are rules

    Send in the NATO troops.

    Sort of pretext Putin would use!
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,950

    HYUFD said:

    I would agree that Starmer could become PM if the Tories win most seats, provided Labour + LD + SNP is more than Tories + DUP and it is a hung parliament.

    Johnson would also have to invoke Art 16 to get DUP support again, the DUP the only party who might still support the Tories in a hung parliament

    Can't understand why you think the DUP would want to do business with your party after last time...
    Pork-barrel politics.

    It's just that the price went up next time.
  • BigRichBigRich Posts: 3,492

    India has accidentally fired a missile into Pakistan.

    @shreyadhoundial
    Just IN : Govt of India statement on the ' Missile Incident ' raised by Pakistan

    * During regular mantainance a technical malfunction led to the accidental firing of a missile. It landed in Pakistan.

    * A high-level Court of Enquiry ordered.

    * Incident deeply regrettable


    https://twitter.com/shreyadhoundial/status/1502272187163877382

    Is saying 'Incident deeply regrettable' the same as saying sorry? I think sorry would be a very good word to use now.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,606
    Quite extraordinarily bad situation in Hong Kong right now

    "To say Hong Kong's current Covid death rate is the highest in the world doesn't quite do justice to how extreme it is. It is markedly higher than any of the countries with the worst overall Covid death rates have ever recorded on a weekly basis."

    https://twitter.com/Birdyword/status/1501839293643649026?s=20&t=wpNRsEKuGQQkyv8jygYkHQ
  • pingping Posts: 3,805
    HYUFD said:

    MISTY said:

    I'm not as virulently opposed to Donald Trump as many on here, but I had to smile at his latest comments on Ukraine.

    'the trouble with Putin is that he's got a very big ego....'

    LOL the ultimate political pot/kettle, surely.

    Interesting Trump comments there and he did call Putin's invasion 'a crime against humanity.'

    'I rebuilt our whole nuclear arsenal. Stronger, bigger and better than ever before.


    'It's better and bigger than Russia. He should say we are a nuclear nation, we don't want war and we don't want to wipe out Russia.

    'This is the way he should be talking, he isn't talking about our nuclear capability.

    'Instead, he keeps saying that they are a nuclear nation, we don't want war. He is playing right into Putin's hands when he does that....Maybe they understood me even better, that's OK, because they knew there'd be a big penalty.'

    Trump added that the Russian invasion of Ukraine 'truly is a crime against humanity' which 'has to end soon'.

    'The problem with Putin is he's got a very big ego,' he explained.
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10601975/Trump-tears-Biden-playing-Putins-hands.html
    “'The problem with Putin is he's got a very big ego”

    Lol.

    Pot, kettle.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,950
    edited March 2022

    India has accidentally fired a missile into Pakistan.

    @shreyadhoundial
    Just IN : Govt of India statement on the ' Missile Incident ' raised by Pakistan

    * During regular mantainance a technical malfunction led to the accidental firing of a missile. It landed in Pakistan.

    * A high-level Court of Enquiry ordered.

    * Incident deeply regrettable


    https://twitter.com/shreyadhoundial/status/1502272187163877382

    We all must be grateful for how much worse it could have been.

    "Deep condolences to all former residents of Rawalpindi...."
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,983
    IshmaelZ said:

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/mar/11/ukraine-military-drone-crashes-into-croatian-capital-zagreb

    Armed attack on NATO country by Ukraine on the face of it.

    Sorry guys but rules are rules

    Not a great ad for Turkish drones.

    Where's this war's exocet?
  • TimTTimT Posts: 6,468
    ping said:

    HYUFD said:

    MISTY said:

    I'm not as virulently opposed to Donald Trump as many on here, but I had to smile at his latest comments on Ukraine.

    'the trouble with Putin is that he's got a very big ego....'

    LOL the ultimate political pot/kettle, surely.

    Interesting Trump comments there and he did call Putin's invasion 'a crime against humanity.'

    'I rebuilt our whole nuclear arsenal. Stronger, bigger and better than ever before.


    'It's better and bigger than Russia. He should say we are a nuclear nation, we don't want war and we don't want to wipe out Russia.

    'This is the way he should be talking, he isn't talking about our nuclear capability.

    'Instead, he keeps saying that they are a nuclear nation, we don't want war. He is playing right into Putin's hands when he does that....Maybe they understood me even better, that's OK, because they knew there'd be a big penalty.'

    Trump added that the Russian invasion of Ukraine 'truly is a crime against humanity' which 'has to end soon'.

    'The problem with Putin is he's got a very big ego,' he explained.
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10601975/Trump-tears-Biden-playing-Putins-hands.html
    “'The problem with Putin is he's got a very big ego”

    Lol.

    Pot, kettle.
    As they say, it takes one to recognize one. One of those brief flashes of Trump self-awareness.
  • ChameleonChameleon Posts: 4,264
    edited March 2022
    Looks like we're now up to 4 dead Russian generals (including the Chechen warlord).

    Meanwhile in Kherson they're going house to house rounding up anyone with links to the Ukrainian government/police/defence forces: https://twitter.com/kherradio/status/1502241215651135488
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,606
    Roger said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/mar/11/ukraine-military-drone-crashes-into-croatian-capital-zagreb

    Armed attack on NATO country by Ukraine on the face of it.

    Sorry guys but rules are rules

    Not a great ad for Turkish drones.

    Where's this war's exocet?
    It's called the NLAW, and it's British

    You're welcome, Rog

    "A Ukrainian fighter - standing next to a destroyed Russian tank - tells CBS news how effective the British supplied NLAW ATGM has been in Ukraine and asks for more.🔥

    🇬🇧🤝🇺🇦"

    https://twitter.com/JimmySecUK/status/1501504691053678595?s=20&t=4raASY-YTtbrxWsovUT4kw
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,950
    Chameleon said:

    Looks like we're now up to 4 dead Russian generals (including the Chechen warlord).

    That's not including the ones Putin has had executed for failing to deliver Blitzkrieg.....
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 52,302
    Roger said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/mar/11/ukraine-military-drone-crashes-into-croatian-capital-zagreb

    Armed attack on NATO country by Ukraine on the face of it.

    Sorry guys but rules are rules

    Not a great ad for Turkish drones.

    Where's this war's exocet?
    It's an old Soviet drone, not the modern Turkish Bayraktar.
  • ApplicantApplicant Posts: 3,379
    If the numbers allow a more stable Con-led coalition than Lab-led coalition, a Con-led coalition is what we will have.

    Just like in 2010.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,533
    edited March 2022
    Leon said:

    Quite extraordinarily bad situation in Hong Kong right now

    "To say Hong Kong's current Covid death rate is the highest in the world doesn't quite do justice to how extreme it is. It is markedly higher than any of the countries with the worst overall Covid death rates have ever recorded on a weekly basis."

    https://twitter.com/Birdyword/status/1501839293643649026?s=20&t=wpNRsEKuGQQkyv8jygYkHQ

    Strange how the BBC doesn't give any clear context of where the UK are in excess deaths. From there report it would hard to know that UK middle of the pack, better than most of Europe, basically the same as France and now not far behind Germany.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/health-60690251

    Not world beating (due to poor handling of first wave*), but not world leading death rates (as so been reported).

    * interesting that Hancock in his long form interview with "Diary of a CEO", he explained that modellers told SAGE that the UK was 3 weeks behind the likes of Italy in the first wave and since now proved to be totally wrong and UK was in fact on par with spread in Italy (due to all the skiing holidays etc). Hence why the lockdown didn't come for several weeks after Europe, as they thought a) wasn't well seeded in the UK and b) that lockdown wouldn't hold for more than a month or two.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 50,159
    HYUFD said:

    I would agree that Starmer could become PM if the Tories win most seats, provided Labour + LD + SNP is more than Tories + DUP and it is a hung parliament.

    Johnson would also have to invoke Art 16 to get DUP support again, the DUP the only party who might still support the Tories in a hung parliament

    Despite having been utterly shafted the last time? Maybe you overestimate even their stupidity.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,606
    edited March 2022
    TimT said:

    Of course, new thread, just as I post a longer post. FPT

    TimT Posts: 5,396
    8:34AM edited 8:36AM

    Applicant said:
    » show previous quotes
    5. There is no clear relationship between levels of excess mortality and different levels of restrictions/ NPIs across Western Europe or indeed the whole of Europe.

    Months and months of lockdown shown to be pointless.


    But in a complex adaptive system, you can't even reach that conclusion.

    Two states in exactly the same starting position (as near as can be measured) implementing the exact same measures (as near as can be measured) will have different - potentially vastly different - outcomes. That does not mean to say that the measures themselves were useless, just that the sensitivity to initial conditions has a greater impact on outcomes than the measures.

    Take two wooded areas of the same size and climatic conditions, and the same amount of fuel in the system. We know that for each system, removing dead undergrowth reduces the prospect of a massive wildfire resulting from a lightning strike. But, if we remove the dead wood and scrub from one wood and not the other, we still cannot predict which of the two will produce a wildfire if both are struck with lightning. If the untended wood has no fire and the tended wood does, it still does not mean that the measures taken to remove fuel from the tended wood were wrong or useless.

    No, but it does deprive Labour or the SNP of the narrative that the Tory government in London was "uniquely useless" in combatting Covid, hence the UK having "the worst death toll in the world"

    I still get lefty friends chanting that mantra at me, when it is not just wrong, it is howlingly wrong, a complete inversion of the truth. In terms of Covid deaths, the UK has done BETTER than most countries in the world (MUCH better than many), and has done BETTER than most of her peers in western Europe.
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 8,832
    TimT said:

    Of course, new thread, just as I post a longer post. FPT

    TimT Posts: 5,396
    8:34AM edited 8:36AM

    Applicant said:
    » show previous quotes
    5. There is no clear relationship between levels of excess mortality and different levels of restrictions/ NPIs across Western Europe or indeed the whole of Europe.

    Months and months of lockdown shown to be pointless.


    But in a complex adaptive system, you can't even reach that conclusion.

    Two states in exactly the same starting position (as near as can be measured) implementing the exact same measures (as near as can be measured) will have different - potentially vastly different - outcomes. That does not mean to say that the measures themselves were useless, just that the sensitivity to initial conditions has a greater impact on outcomes than the measures.

    Take two wooded areas of the same size and climatic conditions, and the same amount of fuel in the system. We know that for each system, removing dead undergrowth reduces the prospect of a massive wildfire resulting from a lightning strike. But, if we remove the dead wood and scrub from one wood and not the other, we still cannot predict which of the two will produce a wildfire if both are struck with lightning. If the untended wood has no fire and the tended wood does, it still does not mean that the measures taken to remove fuel from the tended wood were wrong or useless.

    There's also the possibility that, given different unerlying populations, risks, exposures, countries generally did about enough in restrictions to keep deaths somewhere within an acceptable range taking into account also the costs. Some countries had to lock down harder to do that, some less so, which would give you apparently similar results irrespective of lockdown severity.

    I haven't looked at this in detail, but it depends, of course, on your comparison groups. Sweden, say - I have't checked this, did better than us on headline figures with fewer restrictions. But did worse than its neighbours with more restrictions. So what do we conclude?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,606
    edited March 2022
    From what I'm reading, Shanghai has a similar vax profile to Hong Kong. Lots of Sinovac, and quite a lot of older vax refusers.

    There is no reason Shanghai should avoid Hong Kong's fate, unless the CCP locks it down right now?

    Flights are already being diverted. This is the commercial capital of China


    "Shanghai is really on edge right now over accelerating Covid cases; I haven’t seen everyone this nervous since February 2020… a lot of rumors are swirling amidst the confirmed news that schools are now closed, flights are being diverted, and public events are getting canceled"

    https://twitter.com/danwwang/status/1502255518185713664?s=20&t=4raASY-YTtbrxWsovUT4kw
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,533
    edited March 2022
    Leon said:

    Roger said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/mar/11/ukraine-military-drone-crashes-into-croatian-capital-zagreb

    Armed attack on NATO country by Ukraine on the face of it.

    Sorry guys but rules are rules

    Not a great ad for Turkish drones.

    Where's this war's exocet?
    It's called the NLAW, and it's British

    You're welcome, Rog

    "A Ukrainian fighter - standing next to a destroyed Russian tank - tells CBS news how effective the British supplied NLAW ATGM has been in Ukraine and asks for more.🔥

    🇬🇧🤝🇺🇦"

    https://twitter.com/JimmySecUK/status/1501504691053678595?s=20&t=4raASY-YTtbrxWsovUT4kw
    Well British made (final assembly in Northern Ireland), but collaboration between the Swedes, the French and the British.
  • glwglw Posts: 9,956
    TimT said:

    Of course, new thread, just as I post a longer post. FPT

    TimT Posts: 5,396
    8:34AM edited 8:36AM

    Applicant said:
    » show previous quotes
    5. There is no clear relationship between levels of excess mortality and different levels of restrictions/ NPIs across Western Europe or indeed the whole of Europe.

    Months and months of lockdown shown to be pointless.


    But in a complex adaptive system, you can't even reach that conclusion.

    Two states in exactly the same starting position (as near as can be measured) implementing the exact same measures (as near as can be measured) will have different - potentially vastly different - outcomes. That does not mean to say that the measures themselves were useless, just that the sensitivity to initial conditions has a greater impact on outcomes than the measures.

    Take two wooded areas of the same size and climatic conditions, and the same amount of fuel in the system. We know that for each system, removing dead undergrowth reduces the prospect of a massive wildfire resulting from a lightning strike. But, if we remove the dead wood and scrub from one wood and not the other, we still cannot predict which of the two will produce a wildfire if both are struck with lightning. If the untended wood has no fire and the tended wood does, it still does not mean that the measures taken to remove fuel from the tended wood were wrong or useless.

    Good points. I'm sure some NPIs did work, lockdown really ought to because if you don't mix with people you can't spread the virus, but a lot of the minor NPIs really do look dubious, particularly if you are dealing with an airborne virus. Disentangling what worked from what didn't, and figuring out how effective the good measures were and why that was, will be a very important part of learning how to deal with the next pandemic.
  • TimTTimT Posts: 6,468
    Leon said:

    TimT said:

    Of course, new thread, just as I post a longer post. FPT

    TimT Posts: 5,396
    8:34AM edited 8:36AM

    Applicant said:
    » show previous quotes
    5. There is no clear relationship between levels of excess mortality and different levels of restrictions/ NPIs across Western Europe or indeed the whole of Europe.

    Months and months of lockdown shown to be pointless.


    But in a complex adaptive system, you can't even reach that conclusion.

    Two states in exactly the same starting position (as near as can be measured) implementing the exact same measures (as near as can be measured) will have different - potentially vastly different - outcomes. That does not mean to say that the measures themselves were useless, just that the sensitivity to initial conditions has a greater impact on outcomes than the measures.

    Take two wooded areas of the same size and climatic conditions, and the same amount of fuel in the system. We know that for each system, removing dead undergrowth reduces the prospect of a massive wildfire resulting from a lightning strike. But, if we remove the dead wood and scrub from one wood and not the other, we still cannot predict which of the two will produce a wildfire if both are struck with lightning. If the untended wood has no fire and the tended wood does, it still does not mean that the measures taken to remove fuel from the tended wood were wrong or useless.

    No, but it does deprive Labour or the SNP of the narrative that the Tory government in London was "uniquely useless" in combatting Covid, hence the UK having "the worst death toll in the world"

    I still get lefty friends chanting that mantra at me, when it is not just wrong, it is howlingly wrong, a complete inversion of the truth. In terms of Covid deaths, the UK has done BETTER than most countries in the world (MUCH better than many), and has done BETTER than most of her peers in western Europe.
    Agreed. I have been arguing against the 'world COVID league tables' idea since the outset. Clearly, I am not a convincing communicator.

    Another way of stating the above is that, when you make decisions based on probabilities, getting an adverse outcome does not make the decision bad. If there is a 90% chance of rain and you take an umbrella with you when you walk to the pub, if the 10% chance materializes and it does not rain, it does not make taking the umbrella a bad idea.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,533
    edited March 2022
    Leon said:

    From what I'm reading, Shanghai has a similar vax profile to Hong Kong. Lots of Sinovac, and quite a lot of older vax refusers.

    There is no reason Shanghai should avoid Hong Kong's fate, unless the CCP locks it down right now?

    That has always been a key factor missing in the blunt reporting about vaccine rates. The age profile is super important. Having 90% of 11 year olds vaccinated compared to 90% of 80 years olds is world of difference.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,987
    edited March 2022
    Applicant said:

    If the numbers allow a more stable Con-led coalition than Lab-led coalition, a Con-led coalition is what we will have.

    Just like in 2010.

    Not post Brexit, the LDs would not support the Tories again unless they align the UK more closely to the SM and CU even if the Tories win most seats in a hung parliament like 2010. The Tories won't do that as it would split the party, boost Farage and RefUK and the ERG would go beserk!
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 50,159
    Jenkins: This appalling war is unlike most in Europe’s history in that it appears to be the will literally of one man rather than an entire country. None of Putin’s top brass are thought to have known of or supported it. Sheer terror now keeps them loyal. Yet no expert is predicting an early coup or assassination – let alone a new boyars’ plot of oligarchs sweeping into the Kremlin in gold-plated helicopters. Somehow or other, mediation is going to have to disentangle this horror on terms vaguely acceptable to Putin.

    Then it will be in no one’s interest for the punitive ostracism of Russia to continue a moment longer, on the spurious grounds that ordinary Russians somehow “allowed” Putin to invade Ukraine. Punishing losers is a counter-productive outcome of war. It’s worth remembering the economic devastation and humiliation of Germany after 1918, or Russia after 1989. Ukraine will have to rebuild. So too will Russia. This is not kindness, just common sense.

  • ApplicantApplicant Posts: 3,379
    TimT said:

    Of course, new thread, just as I post a longer post. FPT

    TimT Posts: 5,396
    8:34AM edited 8:36AM

    Applicant said:
    » show previous quotes
    5. There is no clear relationship between levels of excess mortality and different levels of restrictions/ NPIs across Western Europe or indeed the whole of Europe.

    Months and months of lockdown shown to be pointless.


    But in a complex adaptive system, you can't even reach that conclusion.

    Two states in exactly the same starting position (as near as can be measured) implementing the exact same measures (as near as can be measured) will have different - potentially vastly different - outcomes. That does not mean to say that the measures themselves were useless, just that the sensitivity to initial conditions has a greater impact on outcomes than the measures.

    Take two wooded areas of the same size and climatic conditions, and the same amount of fuel in the system. We know that for each system, removing dead undergrowth reduces the prospect of a massive wildfire resulting from a lightning strike. But, if we remove the dead wood and scrub from one wood and not the other, we still cannot predict which of the two will produce a wildfire if both are struck with lightning. If the untended wood has no fire and the tended wood does, it still does not mean that the measures taken to remove fuel from the tended wood were wrong or useless.

    OK, perhaps "pointless" is an exaggeration. But certainly not worth the cost.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,950
    Leon said:

    From what I'm reading, Shanghai has a similar vax profile to Hong Kong. Lots of Sinovac, and quite a lot of older vax refusers.

    There is no reason Shanghai should avoid Hong Kong's fate, unless the CCP locks it down right now?

    Flights are already being diverted. This is the commercial capital of China


    "Shanghai is really on edge right now over accelerating Covid cases; I haven’t seen everyone this nervous since February 2020… a lot of rumors are swirling amidst the confirmed news that schools are now closed, flights are being diverted, and public events are getting canceled"

    https://twitter.com/danwwang/status/1502255518185713664?s=20&t=4raASY-YTtbrxWsovUT4kw

    Can't the West send them a tsunami of PROPER vaccinations that actually, you know, work?

    All they have to do in return is stop being so nice to that Mr Putin.....
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 50,159
    HYUFD said:

    Applicant said:

    If the numbers allow a more stable Con-led coalition than Lab-led coalition, a Con-led coalition is what we will have.

    Just like in 2010.

    Not post Brexit, the LDs would not support the Tories again unless they align the UK more closely to the SM and CU even if the Tories win most seats in a hung parliament like 2010. The Tories won't do that as it would split the party, boost Farage and RefUK and the ERG would go beserk!
    Karma will eventually arrive to reward your party’s pig-headed stupidity.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,393

    Leon said:

    Roger said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/mar/11/ukraine-military-drone-crashes-into-croatian-capital-zagreb

    Armed attack on NATO country by Ukraine on the face of it.

    Sorry guys but rules are rules

    Not a great ad for Turkish drones.

    Where's this war's exocet?
    It's called the NLAW, and it's British

    You're welcome, Rog

    "A Ukrainian fighter - standing next to a destroyed Russian tank - tells CBS news how effective the British supplied NLAW ATGM has been in Ukraine and asks for more.🔥

    🇬🇧🤝🇺🇦"

    https://twitter.com/JimmySecUK/status/1501504691053678595?s=20&t=4raASY-YTtbrxWsovUT4kw
    Well British made (final assembly in Northern Ireland), but collaboration between the Swedes, the French and the British.
    UK made. NI ...
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,259

    India has accidentally fired a missile into Pakistan.

    @shreyadhoundial
    Just IN : Govt of India statement on the ' Missile Incident ' raised by Pakistan

    * During regular mantainance a technical malfunction led to the accidental firing of a missile. It landed in Pakistan.

    * A high-level Court of Enquiry ordered.

    * Incident deeply regrettable


    https://twitter.com/shreyadhoundial/status/1502272187163877382

    For fuck's sake, NOT NOW INDIA
    We're all still here, so I think it's OK ... for now.
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 8,832
    Carnyx said:

    Leon said:

    Roger said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/mar/11/ukraine-military-drone-crashes-into-croatian-capital-zagreb

    Armed attack on NATO country by Ukraine on the face of it.

    Sorry guys but rules are rules

    Not a great ad for Turkish drones.

    Where's this war's exocet?
    It's called the NLAW, and it's British

    You're welcome, Rog

    "A Ukrainian fighter - standing next to a destroyed Russian tank - tells CBS news how effective the British supplied NLAW ATGM has been in Ukraine and asks for more.🔥

    🇬🇧🤝🇺🇦"

    https://twitter.com/JimmySecUK/status/1501504691053678595?s=20&t=4raASY-YTtbrxWsovUT4kw
    Well British made (final assembly in Northern Ireland), but collaboration between the Swedes, the French and the British.
    UK made. NI ...
    'Team GB' made? :wink:
  • TimTTimT Posts: 6,468
    Applicant said:

    TimT said:

    Of course, new thread, just as I post a longer post. FPT

    TimT Posts: 5,396
    8:34AM edited 8:36AM

    Applicant said:
    » show previous quotes
    5. There is no clear relationship between levels of excess mortality and different levels of restrictions/ NPIs across Western Europe or indeed the whole of Europe.

    Months and months of lockdown shown to be pointless.


    But in a complex adaptive system, you can't even reach that conclusion.

    Two states in exactly the same starting position (as near as can be measured) implementing the exact same measures (as near as can be measured) will have different - potentially vastly different - outcomes. That does not mean to say that the measures themselves were useless, just that the sensitivity to initial conditions has a greater impact on outcomes than the measures.

    Take two wooded areas of the same size and climatic conditions, and the same amount of fuel in the system. We know that for each system, removing dead undergrowth reduces the prospect of a massive wildfire resulting from a lightning strike. But, if we remove the dead wood and scrub from one wood and not the other, we still cannot predict which of the two will produce a wildfire if both are struck with lightning. If the untended wood has no fire and the tended wood does, it still does not mean that the measures taken to remove fuel from the tended wood were wrong or useless.

    OK, perhaps "pointless" is an exaggeration. But certainly not worth the cost.
    That is a valid opinion based on what you value, but not a fact.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,606
    glw said:

    TimT said:

    Of course, new thread, just as I post a longer post. FPT

    TimT Posts: 5,396
    8:34AM edited 8:36AM

    Applicant said:
    » show previous quotes
    5. There is no clear relationship between levels of excess mortality and different levels of restrictions/ NPIs across Western Europe or indeed the whole of Europe.

    Months and months of lockdown shown to be pointless.


    But in a complex adaptive system, you can't even reach that conclusion.

    Two states in exactly the same starting position (as near as can be measured) implementing the exact same measures (as near as can be measured) will have different - potentially vastly different - outcomes. That does not mean to say that the measures themselves were useless, just that the sensitivity to initial conditions has a greater impact on outcomes than the measures.

    Take two wooded areas of the same size and climatic conditions, and the same amount of fuel in the system. We know that for each system, removing dead undergrowth reduces the prospect of a massive wildfire resulting from a lightning strike. But, if we remove the dead wood and scrub from one wood and not the other, we still cannot predict which of the two will produce a wildfire if both are struck with lightning. If the untended wood has no fire and the tended wood does, it still does not mean that the measures taken to remove fuel from the tended wood were wrong or useless.

    Good points. I'm sure some NPIs did work, lockdown really ought to because if you don't mix with people you can't spread the virus, but a lot of the minor NPIs really do look dubious, particularly if you are dealing with an airborne virus. Disentangling what worked from what didn't, and figuring out how effective the good measures were and why that was, will be a very important part of learning how to deal with the next pandemic.
    There is another level of complexity: the variants

    Classic Covid, the original, was a lumbering beast compared to the updated versions. It probably WAS stopped by surgical masks and 2m distancing etc

    It is estimated that Omicron BA2 is TWENTY TIMES more transmissible than that first version. Possibly masks - certainly anything less than a well fitted FFP2 - offer no protection at all against Omicron. Hong Kong - highly mask friendly - suggests that might be the case

    There might not be any NPI - short of total solitary isolation in an underground cell for years - which mitigates against Omicron Plus
  • CookieCookie Posts: 14,080
    Leon said:

    Cookie said:

    FPT:

    Leon said:

    Grim

    Hong Kong’s Hospital Authority has asked the public to understand its difficulties with saturated mortuaries amid the city’s Covid-19 crisis, as an image of bodies lying next to living patients on a hospital ward surfaced online.
    https://hongkongfp.com/2022/03/11/covid-19-hong-kong-hospital-authority-urges-understanding-as-shocking-photo-emerges-of-bodies-stored-on-ward/


    https://twitter.com/tomgrundy/status/1502229988481052674

    Now multiply that by a thousand if omicron goes to work in China. As it might already be doing.


    “Mainland China reported over 1,000 new COVID-19 infections in dozens of cities, the highest daily count in about two years, with the Omicron variant forcing a northeastern city to go under lockdown and the financial hub Shanghai to close schools.”

    https://twitter.com/reuters_health/status/1502264336911376387?s=21
    I was speculating on this the other day.

    Will Omicron get to China? Almost certainly - you can't lockdown your way out of this one.

    Will it result in major health problems? I had thought not - Omicron being mild and all that - but maybe HK gives the lie to that. Does HK have issues with vaccines (takeup/mix of vaccines (is Sinovac any good?)/how boosted are they?) Do the same things apply in China? But even if it does strike, my expectation is that it won't strike hard for long - a peak, and then waning by four weeks later.

    Will the Chinese state's response have implications? Quite probably. They are still apparently wedded to zero covid. They will try to lockdown their way out of it. This could by March 2020 on steroids for them. Conceivably they could try to bring China to a complete standstill.

    Which would be something of a nuisance for the already precarious world economy - but could also have an ameliorative effect on fuel prices and other commodities.
    China has a high level of vaccination, but they used a lot of Sinovac (useless against Omicron).

    They are now boostering as fast as they can (presumably with MRNA?), but they've only got to 35% or so

    https://ourworldindata.org/covid-vaccinations

    Quite possible they could see a Hong Kong type situation in multiple cities. A short, sharp pretty hideous shock, and a lot of dead old people

    HK has a a real problem with older vax refuseniks; not sure if that is the case on the mainland
    On a cheerier note - now you're here - I don't know if you'd gone to bed by the time I replied last night but you were spot on with Castlerigg!
  • boulayboulay Posts: 5,557
    Question for anyone who knows/understands UK bankruptcy/administration law…..

    If Chelsea are, as some reports say, a couple of weeks from running out of money, is it actually more in the govt’s interests to let them go into administration and then bankruptcy than to allow a sale before then?

    Mainly wondering on the basis that if they go into administration they will have points deducted but not in danger of relegation and so not overly damaging to the club, however if they can ensure that Abramovich gets as little as possible capital value for the club as possible then surely that’s the aim but I’m not sure if the rules about bankruptcy would enable that aim.

    Sorry if this question makes no sense!
  • BurgessianBurgessian Posts: 2,812
    Leon said:

    TimT said:

    Of course, new thread, just as I post a longer post. FPT

    TimT Posts: 5,396
    8:34AM edited 8:36AM

    Applicant said:
    » show previous quotes
    5. There is no clear relationship between levels of excess mortality and different levels of restrictions/ NPIs across Western Europe or indeed the whole of Europe.

    Months and months of lockdown shown to be pointless.


    But in a complex adaptive system, you can't even reach that conclusion.

    Two states in exactly the same starting position (as near as can be measured) implementing the exact same measures (as near as can be measured) will have different - potentially vastly different - outcomes. That does not mean to say that the measures themselves were useless, just that the sensitivity to initial conditions has a greater impact on outcomes than the measures.

    Take two wooded areas of the same size and climatic conditions, and the same amount of fuel in the system. We know that for each system, removing dead undergrowth reduces the prospect of a massive wildfire resulting from a lightning strike. But, if we remove the dead wood and scrub from one wood and not the other, we still cannot predict which of the two will produce a wildfire if both are struck with lightning. If the untended wood has no fire and the tended wood does, it still does not mean that the measures taken to remove fuel from the tended wood were wrong or useless.

    No, but it does deprive Labour or the SNP of the narrative that the Tory government in London was "uniquely useless" in combatting Covid, hence the UK having "the worst death toll in the world"

    I still get lefty friends chanting that mantra at me, when it is not just wrong, it is howlingly wrong, a complete inversion of the truth. In terms of Covid deaths, the UK has done BETTER than most countries in the world (MUCH better than many), and has done BETTER than most of her peers in western Europe.
    Lefties will be lefties. I get the same with ScotNats. Apparently Nicola scowling at us for 2 years had a huge impact - scared the lurgy away.

    Enlightening thread on the Lancet report here:

    https://twitter.com/drraghibali/status/1502227961084264450

    Rates:
    W. Europe: 140.0 (133.5-146.3)
    Italy: 227.4 (212.0-242.5)
    Portugal: 202.2 (190.7-212.2)
    Spain: 186.7 (181.3-191.5)
    Belgium: 146.6 (135.8-156.3)
    Netherlands: 140.0 (131.3-147.6)
    UK: 126.8(122.3-130.9) Eng. 125.8(122.1-128.7)
    France: 124.2 (120.5-127.7)
    Germany: 120.5 (115.1-125.1)

    Absolute numbers:
    Italy: 259000
    Germany : 203000
    UK: 169000 (England: 142000)
    Spain: 162000
    France: 155000
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,533
    edited March 2022
    Carnyx said:

    Leon said:

    Roger said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/mar/11/ukraine-military-drone-crashes-into-croatian-capital-zagreb

    Armed attack on NATO country by Ukraine on the face of it.

    Sorry guys but rules are rules

    Not a great ad for Turkish drones.

    Where's this war's exocet?
    It's called the NLAW, and it's British

    You're welcome, Rog

    "A Ukrainian fighter - standing next to a destroyed Russian tank - tells CBS news how effective the British supplied NLAW ATGM has been in Ukraine and asks for more.🔥

    🇬🇧🤝🇺🇦"

    https://twitter.com/JimmySecUK/status/1501504691053678595?s=20&t=4raASY-YTtbrxWsovUT4kw
    Well British made (final assembly in Northern Ireland), but collaboration between the Swedes, the French and the British.
    UK made. NI ...
    Actually British made i.e. all the major components, missile etc are made in Britain. Mostly, Plymouth, Glenrothes, Basingstoke, but also Coventry, Gateshead, Bristol and Birmingham. Just final assembly is in Belfast, NI.
  • glwglw Posts: 9,956
    Leon said:

    There is another level of complexity: the variants

    Classic Covid, the original, was a lumbering beast compared to the updated versions. It probably WAS stopped by surgical masks and 2m distancing etc

    It is estimated that Omicron BA2 is TWENTY TIMES more transmissible than that first version. Possibly masks - certainly anything less than a well fitted FFP2 - offer no protection at all against Omicron. Hong Kong - highly mask friendly - suggests that might be the case

    There might not be any NPI - short of total solitary isolation in an underground cell for years - which mitigates against Omicron Plus

    Yes that's a good point too. The coronavirus is now due to mutation perhaps the most transmissible virus in medical history, with a high reproduction rate and a short serial interval it just goes through populations like a wildfire.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 28,437
    IanB2 said:

    Jenkins: This appalling war is unlike most in Europe’s history in that it appears to be the will literally of one man rather than an entire country. None of Putin’s top brass are thought to have known of or supported it. Sheer terror now keeps them loyal. Yet no expert is predicting an early coup or assassination – let alone a new boyars’ plot of oligarchs sweeping into the Kremlin in gold-plated helicopters. Somehow or other, mediation is going to have to disentangle this horror on terms vaguely acceptable to Putin.

    Then it will be in no one’s interest for the punitive ostracism of Russia to continue a moment longer, on the spurious grounds that ordinary Russians somehow “allowed” Putin to invade Ukraine. Punishing losers is a counter-productive outcome of war. It’s worth remembering the economic devastation and humiliation of Germany after 1918, or Russia after 1989. Ukraine will have to rebuild. So too will Russia. This is not kindness, just common sense.

    Some sanctions are based on wishful thinking. Putin's not going to reverse ferret because Chelsea face relegation. We need, or Ukraine needs, to find a form of words that Putin can present as victory, because otherwise he will grind away till Ukraine is a pile of rubble.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,223
    boulay said:

    Question for anyone who knows/understands UK bankruptcy/administration law…..

    If Chelsea are, as some reports say, a couple of weeks from running out of money, is it actually more in the govt’s interests to let them go into administration and then bankruptcy than to allow a sale before then?

    Mainly wondering on the basis that if they go into administration they will have points deducted but not in danger of relegation and so not overly damaging to the club, however if they can ensure that Abramovich gets as little as possible capital value for the club as possible then surely that’s the aim but I’m not sure if the rules about bankruptcy would enable that aim.

    Sorry if this question makes no sense!

    If they go bankrupt then they're out of the league.
  • NorthofStokeNorthofStoke Posts: 1,758
    IanB2 said:

    Jenkins: This appalling war is unlike most in Europe’s history in that it appears to be the will literally of one man rather than an entire country. None of Putin’s top brass are thought to have known of or supported it. Sheer terror now keeps them loyal. Yet no expert is predicting an early coup or assassination – let alone a new boyars’ plot of oligarchs sweeping into the Kremlin in gold-plated helicopters. Somehow or other, mediation is going to have to disentangle this horror on terms vaguely acceptable to Putin.

    Then it will be in no one’s interest for the punitive ostracism of Russia to continue a moment longer, on the spurious grounds that ordinary Russians somehow “allowed” Putin to invade Ukraine. Punishing losers is a counter-productive outcome of war. It’s worth remembering the economic devastation and humiliation of Germany after 1918, or Russia after 1989. Ukraine will have to rebuild. So too will Russia. This is not kindness, just common sense.

    However under Putin or similar the West must reduce and then eliminate dependency on Russian fossil fuels and resources exports. We will also have to limit Russian access to technology. Their economy will still collapse as China will also have to tack more West. Why? China needs to sustain high growth levels or its current strategy will implode. They can only do so via a lot of trade and economic and academic exchanges with the West.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 28,437

    Carnyx said:

    Leon said:

    Roger said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/mar/11/ukraine-military-drone-crashes-into-croatian-capital-zagreb

    Armed attack on NATO country by Ukraine on the face of it.

    Sorry guys but rules are rules

    Not a great ad for Turkish drones.

    Where's this war's exocet?
    It's called the NLAW, and it's British

    You're welcome, Rog

    "A Ukrainian fighter - standing next to a destroyed Russian tank - tells CBS news how effective the British supplied NLAW ATGM has been in Ukraine and asks for more.🔥

    🇬🇧🤝🇺🇦"

    https://twitter.com/JimmySecUK/status/1501504691053678595?s=20&t=4raASY-YTtbrxWsovUT4kw
    Well British made (final assembly in Northern Ireland), but collaboration between the Swedes, the French and the British.
    UK made. NI ...
    Actually British made i.e. all the major components, missile etc are made in Britain. Mostly, Plymouth, Glenrothes, Basingstoke, but also Coventry, Gateshead, Bristol and Birmingham. Just final assembly is in Belfast, NI.
    Britain, as opposed to Great Britain, is synonymous with the UK, or at least it was till Boris started referring to the UK all the time as some sort of penance for selling out Northern Ireland over the Irish Sea border.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,950
    tlg86 said:

    boulay said:

    Question for anyone who knows/understands UK bankruptcy/administration law…..

    If Chelsea are, as some reports say, a couple of weeks from running out of money, is it actually more in the govt’s interests to let them go into administration and then bankruptcy than to allow a sale before then?

    Mainly wondering on the basis that if they go into administration they will have points deducted but not in danger of relegation and so not overly damaging to the club, however if they can ensure that Abramovich gets as little as possible capital value for the club as possible then surely that’s the aim but I’m not sure if the rules about bankruptcy would enable that aim.

    Sorry if this question makes no sense!

    If they go bankrupt then they're out of the league.
    And only two relegated this season? One if Everton follow them?

    Betting implications? (None on Norwich, obvs.....#Doomed)

  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,606
    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    Cookie said:

    FPT:

    Leon said:

    Grim

    Hong Kong’s Hospital Authority has asked the public to understand its difficulties with saturated mortuaries amid the city’s Covid-19 crisis, as an image of bodies lying next to living patients on a hospital ward surfaced online.
    https://hongkongfp.com/2022/03/11/covid-19-hong-kong-hospital-authority-urges-understanding-as-shocking-photo-emerges-of-bodies-stored-on-ward/


    https://twitter.com/tomgrundy/status/1502229988481052674

    Now multiply that by a thousand if omicron goes to work in China. As it might already be doing.


    “Mainland China reported over 1,000 new COVID-19 infections in dozens of cities, the highest daily count in about two years, with the Omicron variant forcing a northeastern city to go under lockdown and the financial hub Shanghai to close schools.”

    https://twitter.com/reuters_health/status/1502264336911376387?s=21
    I was speculating on this the other day.

    Will Omicron get to China? Almost certainly - you can't lockdown your way out of this one.

    Will it result in major health problems? I had thought not - Omicron being mild and all that - but maybe HK gives the lie to that. Does HK have issues with vaccines (takeup/mix of vaccines (is Sinovac any good?)/how boosted are they?) Do the same things apply in China? But even if it does strike, my expectation is that it won't strike hard for long - a peak, and then waning by four weeks later.

    Will the Chinese state's response have implications? Quite probably. They are still apparently wedded to zero covid. They will try to lockdown their way out of it. This could by March 2020 on steroids for them. Conceivably they could try to bring China to a complete standstill.

    Which would be something of a nuisance for the already precarious world economy - but could also have an ameliorative effect on fuel prices and other commodities.
    China has a high level of vaccination, but they used a lot of Sinovac (useless against Omicron).

    They are now boostering as fast as they can (presumably with MRNA?), but they've only got to 35% or so

    https://ourworldindata.org/covid-vaccinations

    Quite possible they could see a Hong Kong type situation in multiple cities. A short, sharp pretty hideous shock, and a lot of dead old people

    HK has a a real problem with older vax refuseniks; not sure if that is the case on the mainland
    On a cheerier note - now you're here - I don't know if you'd gone to bed by the time I replied last night but you were spot on with Castlerigg!
    Ha, thanks.

    I know roughly where you live, and I know that Castlerigg is indeed amazing, so it wasn't that hard to guess (given that I am obsessed with megaliths, and visit them whenever I can)

  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,950
    "Russia's is moving to ban Instagram, which seemed inevitable – and wants to have Meta, the parent company, declared an "extremist organization."

    Even in the context of wartime repression, this is astonishing – it basically likens Facebook to al-Qaeda."

    https://twitter.com/maxseddon/status/1502253590815154179
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,606
    glw said:

    Leon said:

    There is another level of complexity: the variants

    Classic Covid, the original, was a lumbering beast compared to the updated versions. It probably WAS stopped by surgical masks and 2m distancing etc

    It is estimated that Omicron BA2 is TWENTY TIMES more transmissible than that first version. Possibly masks - certainly anything less than a well fitted FFP2 - offer no protection at all against Omicron. Hong Kong - highly mask friendly - suggests that might be the case

    There might not be any NPI - short of total solitary isolation in an underground cell for years - which mitigates against Omicron Plus

    Yes that's a good point too. The coronavirus is now due to mutation perhaps the most transmissible virus in medical history, with a high reproduction rate and a short serial interval it just goes through populations like a wildfire.
    Yep.

    Tho the Chinese are still trying to keep it out: desperately building quarantine camps in Shanghai, and now closing all schools, museums, galleries, etc. And diverting flights - from their own commercial capital

    https://twitter.com/songpinganq/status/1502274934868877312?s=20&t=4raASY-YTtbrxWsovUT4kw

    They know it is going to be bad. They will surely lockdown Shanghai completely?
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,533

    "Russia's is moving to ban Instagram, which seemed inevitable – and wants to have Meta, the parent company, declared an "extremist organization."

    Even in the context of wartime repression, this is astonishing – it basically likens Facebook to al-Qaeda."

    https://twitter.com/maxseddon/status/1502253590815154179

    Well they have certainly radicalised more people than Al-Qaeda....
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,223

    tlg86 said:

    boulay said:

    Question for anyone who knows/understands UK bankruptcy/administration law…..

    If Chelsea are, as some reports say, a couple of weeks from running out of money, is it actually more in the govt’s interests to let them go into administration and then bankruptcy than to allow a sale before then?

    Mainly wondering on the basis that if they go into administration they will have points deducted but not in danger of relegation and so not overly damaging to the club, however if they can ensure that Abramovich gets as little as possible capital value for the club as possible then surely that’s the aim but I’m not sure if the rules about bankruptcy would enable that aim.

    Sorry if this question makes no sense!

    If they go bankrupt then they're out of the league.
    And only two relegated this season? One if Everton follow them?

    Betting implications? (None on Norwich, obvs.....#Doomed)

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-39282487

    A man who sued Coral for not paying out £250,000 on a bet that Rangers would be relegated has lost his legal fight.

    Albert Kinloch, 72, placed £100 at 2,500/1 on the Ibrox club being relegated from the Scottish Premier League (SPL) in the 2011/12 season.


    Quite how Betfair would handle such a situation, I don't know...
  • eekeek Posts: 28,592

    "Russia's is moving to ban Instagram, which seemed inevitable – and wants to have Meta, the parent company, declared an "extremist organization."

    Even in the context of wartime repression, this is astonishing – it basically likens Facebook to al-Qaeda."

    https://twitter.com/maxseddon/status/1502253590815154179

    Given the damage Facebook's algorithms can do to the "news" on someone's newsfeed after clicking a couple of dubious links I agree with Russia.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,606
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,259
    Mykolaiv governor Vitaly Kim: "We have offered the Russian forces near the city to surrender to us. In 1-2 days, we will know their answer."
    https://twitter.com/NeilPHauer/status/1502243166006689804
  • NorthofStokeNorthofStoke Posts: 1,758
    tlg86 said:

    boulay said:

    Question for anyone who knows/understands UK bankruptcy/administration law…..

    If Chelsea are, as some reports say, a couple of weeks from running out of money, is it actually more in the govt’s interests to let them go into administration and then bankruptcy than to allow a sale before then?

    Mainly wondering on the basis that if they go into administration they will have points deducted but not in danger of relegation and so not overly damaging to the club, however if they can ensure that Abramovich gets as little as possible capital value for the club as possible then surely that’s the aim but I’m not sure if the rules about bankruptcy would enable that aim.

    Sorry if this question makes no sense!

    If they go bankrupt then they're out of the league.
    What would happen in these circumstances?
    1. Receivers appointed.
    2. Bankruptcy.
    3. One hour later, new owners appointed who meet all debts and liabilities apart from loans to Abramovich.
  • ApplicantApplicant Posts: 3,379
    edited March 2022
    glw said:

    TimT said:

    Of course, new thread, just as I post a longer post. FPT

    TimT Posts: 5,396
    8:34AM edited 8:36AM

    Applicant said:
    » show previous quotes
    5. There is no clear relationship between levels of excess mortality and different levels of restrictions/ NPIs across Western Europe or indeed the whole of Europe.

    Months and months of lockdown shown to be pointless.


    But in a complex adaptive system, you can't even reach that conclusion.

    Two states in exactly the same starting position (as near as can be measured) implementing the exact same measures (as near as can be measured) will have different - potentially vastly different - outcomes. That does not mean to say that the measures themselves were useless, just that the sensitivity to initial conditions has a greater impact on outcomes than the measures.

    Take two wooded areas of the same size and climatic conditions, and the same amount of fuel in the system. We know that for each system, removing dead undergrowth reduces the prospect of a massive wildfire resulting from a lightning strike. But, if we remove the dead wood and scrub from one wood and not the other, we still cannot predict which of the two will produce a wildfire if both are struck with lightning. If the untended wood has no fire and the tended wood does, it still does not mean that the measures taken to remove fuel from the tended wood were wrong or useless.

    Good points. I'm sure some NPIs did work, lockdown really ought to because if you don't mix with people you can't spread the virus, but a lot of the minor NPIs really do look dubious, particularly if you are dealing with an airborne virus. Disentangling what worked from what didn't, and figuring out how effective the good measures were and why that was, will be a very important part of learning how to deal with the next pandemic.
    It seems to me as if the case for NPIs rested on an unspoken assumption that the graph of transmission vs mobility reduction looked something like this:



    But in reality it seems to have been more like this - and the first inflection point was reached by voluntary action, and the second inflection point wasn't achievable in a democratic Western society:



  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,533
    Leon said:
    Probably nothing.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 14,080
    Chameleon said:

    Looks like we're now up to 4 dead Russian generals (including the Chechen warlord).

    Meanwhile in Kherson they're going house to house rounding up anyone with links to the Ukrainian government/police/defence forces: https://twitter.com/kherradio/status/1502241215651135488

    4 out of how many? I have no idea how significant that it.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,937
    IshmaelZ said:

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/mar/11/ukraine-military-drone-crashes-into-croatian-capital-zagreb

    Armed attack on NATO country by Ukraine on the face of it.

    Sorry guys but rules are rules

    I don't believe that even the Grauniad would report that.

    Can someone explain how a drone that cannot carry weapons can launch an armed attack?
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tupolev_Tu-141
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,259
    Roger said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/mar/11/ukraine-military-drone-crashes-into-croatian-capital-zagreb

    Armed attack on NATO country by Ukraine on the face of it.

    Sorry guys but rules are rules

    Not a great ad for Turkish drones.

    Where's this war's exocet?
    It wasn't a Turkish drone - for which the war has been a tremendous ad.
    (Though I realise the Bayraktar camerawork probably isn't up to your standards.)
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,223

    tlg86 said:

    boulay said:

    Question for anyone who knows/understands UK bankruptcy/administration law…..

    If Chelsea are, as some reports say, a couple of weeks from running out of money, is it actually more in the govt’s interests to let them go into administration and then bankruptcy than to allow a sale before then?

    Mainly wondering on the basis that if they go into administration they will have points deducted but not in danger of relegation and so not overly damaging to the club, however if they can ensure that Abramovich gets as little as possible capital value for the club as possible then surely that’s the aim but I’m not sure if the rules about bankruptcy would enable that aim.

    Sorry if this question makes no sense!

    If they go bankrupt then they're out of the league.
    What would happen in these circumstances?
    1. Receivers appointed.
    2. Bankruptcy.
    3. One hour later, new owners appointed who meet all debts and liabilities apart from loans to Abramovich.
    I wonder how significant that loan from Abramovich is? Did he do it as a loan, rather than simply as a gift, for precisely this scenario?
  • kamskikamski Posts: 5,208

    Leon said:

    TimT said:

    Of course, new thread, just as I post a longer post. FPT

    TimT Posts: 5,396
    8:34AM edited 8:36AM

    Applicant said:
    » show previous quotes
    5. There is no clear relationship between levels of excess mortality and different levels of restrictions/ NPIs across Western Europe or indeed the whole of Europe.

    Months and months of lockdown shown to be pointless.


    But in a complex adaptive system, you can't even reach that conclusion.

    Two states in exactly the same starting position (as near as can be measured) implementing the exact same measures (as near as can be measured) will have different - potentially vastly different - outcomes. That does not mean to say that the measures themselves were useless, just that the sensitivity to initial conditions has a greater impact on outcomes than the measures.

    Take two wooded areas of the same size and climatic conditions, and the same amount of fuel in the system. We know that for each system, removing dead undergrowth reduces the prospect of a massive wildfire resulting from a lightning strike. But, if we remove the dead wood and scrub from one wood and not the other, we still cannot predict which of the two will produce a wildfire if both are struck with lightning. If the untended wood has no fire and the tended wood does, it still does not mean that the measures taken to remove fuel from the tended wood were wrong or useless.

    No, but it does deprive Labour or the SNP of the narrative that the Tory government in London was "uniquely useless" in combatting Covid, hence the UK having "the worst death toll in the world"

    I still get lefty friends chanting that mantra at me, when it is not just wrong, it is howlingly wrong, a complete inversion of the truth. In terms of Covid deaths, the UK has done BETTER than most countries in the world (MUCH better than many), and has done BETTER than most of her peers in western Europe.
    Lefties will be lefties. I get the same with ScotNats. Apparently Nicola scowling at us for 2 years had a huge impact - scared the lurgy away.

    Enlightening thread on the Lancet report here:

    https://twitter.com/drraghibali/status/1502227961084264450

    Rates:
    W. Europe: 140.0 (133.5-146.3)
    Italy: 227.4 (212.0-242.5)
    Portugal: 202.2 (190.7-212.2)
    Spain: 186.7 (181.3-191.5)
    Belgium: 146.6 (135.8-156.3)
    Netherlands: 140.0 (131.3-147.6)
    UK: 126.8(122.3-130.9) Eng. 125.8(122.1-128.7)
    France: 124.2 (120.5-127.7)
    Germany: 120.5 (115.1-125.1)

    Absolute numbers:
    Italy: 259000
    Germany : 203000
    UK: 169000 (England: 142000)
    Spain: 162000
    France: 155000
    The latest Economist model has Germany 123k excess deaths, France 107k, Italy 191k, Spain 121k, Britain 151k, so a bit lower in all cases? Britain looks a little bit worse in comparison terms in the economist model. Seems nobody can even agree on excess death numbers! Probably even differences of 30% can't be put down to any specific policies, if you plotted a graph of the whole world the closest correlation might just be percentage of old people in the population - with some interesting outliers

    Generally, I think if we're smart we can learn different things from different countries that did certain things well - some of the best examples will be from outside Europe though.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,606

    Leon said:
    Probably nothing.
    Interesting SCMP article on Omicron in Shanghai

    https://twitter.com/PhraAthit/status/1502283981462593541?s=20&t=4raASY-YTtbrxWsovUT4kw

    The locals don't seem worried, partly because "we have high levels of vaccination". They seem unaware that if they are vaxxed with Sinovac they have almost no protection

    Hong Kongers are therefore skeptical:

    "Shanghai, once a model city in China’s Covid-19 fightback, is tackling its biggest outbreak of the pandemic
    Quarantine or isolation offer no guarantee of remaining Covid-free, notes Hong Kong-based virologist"
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 50,159
    edited March 2022
    A great performance from Blink there, goes straight into the lead.

    And Sizzle takes second place!
  • ApplicantApplicant Posts: 3,379
    TimT said:

    Applicant said:

    TimT said:

    Of course, new thread, just as I post a longer post. FPT

    TimT Posts: 5,396
    8:34AM edited 8:36AM

    Applicant said:
    » show previous quotes
    5. There is no clear relationship between levels of excess mortality and different levels of restrictions/ NPIs across Western Europe or indeed the whole of Europe.

    Months and months of lockdown shown to be pointless.


    But in a complex adaptive system, you can't even reach that conclusion.

    Two states in exactly the same starting position (as near as can be measured) implementing the exact same measures (as near as can be measured) will have different - potentially vastly different - outcomes. That does not mean to say that the measures themselves were useless, just that the sensitivity to initial conditions has a greater impact on outcomes than the measures.

    Take two wooded areas of the same size and climatic conditions, and the same amount of fuel in the system. We know that for each system, removing dead undergrowth reduces the prospect of a massive wildfire resulting from a lightning strike. But, if we remove the dead wood and scrub from one wood and not the other, we still cannot predict which of the two will produce a wildfire if both are struck with lightning. If the untended wood has no fire and the tended wood does, it still does not mean that the measures taken to remove fuel from the tended wood were wrong or useless.

    OK, perhaps "pointless" is an exaggeration. But certainly not worth the cost.
    That is a valid opinion based on what you value, but not a fact.
    Well, I never valued a death from any cause within 28 days of a positive test for one specific respiratory virus as infinitely more important than anything else.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,259
    MattW said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/mar/11/ukraine-military-drone-crashes-into-croatian-capital-zagreb

    Armed attack on NATO country by Ukraine on the face of it.

    Sorry guys but rules are rules

    I don't believe that even the Grauniad would report that.

    Can someone explain how a drone that cannot carry weapons can launch an armed attack?
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tupolev_Tu-141
    This is the slightly worrying bit of the report from Hungary and Croatia's point of view.
    ...The large drone flew at least 350 miles (560km) apparently undetected by air defences in Croatia and Hungary, both members of the western military alliance....
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,223
    That was a truly terrible umpiring decision. Thank God for DRS.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,950
    Nigelb said:

    Roger said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/mar/11/ukraine-military-drone-crashes-into-croatian-capital-zagreb

    Armed attack on NATO country by Ukraine on the face of it.

    Sorry guys but rules are rules

    Not a great ad for Turkish drones.

    Where's this war's exocet?
    It wasn't a Turkish drone - for which the war has been a tremendous ad.
    (Though I realise the Bayraktar camerawork probably isn't up to your standards.)
    They need to strap Roger Deakins under one!
  • bigglesbiggles Posts: 6,198
    Leon said:
    If China starts having a really nasty outbreak to worry about, I’m guessing we need to stop hoping they’ll mediate in Ukraine and tell Putin to pack it in.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,259
    Prospects for battlefield promotion...

    Russian general Andrey Kolesnikov is a “200”. Russian and Ukrainian lingo for “killed in action”.
    https://twitter.com/olex_scherba/status/1502254582906433538
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,606
    China exercising its normal light touch when it comes to lockdowns


    "Changchun city, 9 millions residents.
    It is in lockdown now.
    https://twitter.com/AP/status/1502219611265466374?t=eumEqYl8KvFosGCtoXJU3A&s=19

    Chinese authority sent all 6556 students of a university off to Covid quarantine camps yesterday.

    Totally more than 20 000 people were bussed away to quarantine camps yesterday."

    https://twitter.com/songpinganq/status/1502285200398553090?s=20&t=RCQN0IBjXut1uF23e4HjVQ
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,714
    Wow. Just seen the front page of The Express. They've clearly decided there's a not inconsiderable market for the pro-Putin stance.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 14,080
    If anyone is interested in the view that 'Demoralised and incompetent, Putin’s army is marching to its doom' and has 59 minutes to listen to some fairly well-informed views on that matter, this is quite good (and actually a little more balanced than the title implies):
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a2awysdmPhQ&t=1793s
  • MISTYMISTY Posts: 1,594
    Leon said:

    Roger said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/mar/11/ukraine-military-drone-crashes-into-croatian-capital-zagreb

    Armed attack on NATO country by Ukraine on the face of it.

    Sorry guys but rules are rules

    Not a great ad for Turkish drones.

    Where's this war's exocet?
    It's called the NLAW, and it's British

    You're welcome, Rog

    "A Ukrainian fighter - standing next to a destroyed Russian tank - tells CBS news how effective the British supplied NLAW ATGM has been in Ukraine and asks for more.🔥

    🇬🇧🤝🇺🇦"

    https://twitter.com/JimmySecUK/status/1501504691053678595?s=20&t=4raASY-YTtbrxWsovUT4kw

    For some anti-tank and anti-aircraft manufacturers, Ukraine is all their xmases at once.

    The Russians are the perfect test arena. There are loads of them, they aren't that well protected or well hidden and they aren't going anywhere.

    Ukraine is also a great shop window as the world has officially designated the targets Bad People. There are few protests over the compelling footage of wreckage and dead, therefore, and these can be widely shared.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 50,159
    edited March 2022
    Fuse incurs two refusals; could have been a competitor.

    Tikita takes second with a great final run

    Blink wins this round. Grand final this evening!
  • BigRichBigRich Posts: 3,492
    Applicant said:

    glw said:

    TimT said:

    Of course, new thread, just as I post a longer post. FPT

    TimT Posts: 5,396
    8:34AM edited 8:36AM

    Applicant said:
    » show previous quotes
    5. There is no clear relationship between levels of excess mortality and different levels of restrictions/ NPIs across Western Europe or indeed the whole of Europe.

    Months and months of lockdown shown to be pointless.


    But in a complex adaptive system, you can't even reach that conclusion.

    Two states in exactly the same starting position (as near as can be measured) implementing the exact same measures (as near as can be measured) will have different - potentially vastly different - outcomes. That does not mean to say that the measures themselves were useless, just that the sensitivity to initial conditions has a greater impact on outcomes than the measures.

    Take two wooded areas of the same size and climatic conditions, and the same amount of fuel in the system. We know that for each system, removing dead undergrowth reduces the prospect of a massive wildfire resulting from a lightning strike. But, if we remove the dead wood and scrub from one wood and not the other, we still cannot predict which of the two will produce a wildfire if both are struck with lightning. If the untended wood has no fire and the tended wood does, it still does not mean that the measures taken to remove fuel from the tended wood were wrong or useless.

    Good points. I'm sure some NPIs did work, lockdown really ought to because if you don't mix with people you can't spread the virus, but a lot of the minor NPIs really do look dubious, particularly if you are dealing with an airborne virus. Disentangling what worked from what didn't, and figuring out how effective the good measures were and why that was, will be a very important part of learning how to deal with the next pandemic.
    It seems to me as if the case for NPIs rested on an unspoken assumption that the graph of transmission vs mobility reduction looked something like this:



    But in reality it seems to have been more like this - and the first inflection point was reached by voluntary action, and the second inflection point wasn't achievable in a democratic Western society:



    That's exactly my thoughts.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 8,955
    edited March 2022
    1) Appreciate everyone is very excited by the excess deaths figures. Actuarial/statistical types I know don't think a proper assessment can be made for a few years (particularly of you want to take account of delayed cancer ops, QALY etc).

    2) We need better names for our military stuff in the Tiktok wars. NLAW = Frostbolt? Queen Elizabeth = Ark Royal.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,950
    edited March 2022
    Nigelb said:

    Prospects for battlefield promotion...

    Russian general Andrey Kolesnikov is a “200”. Russian and Ukrainian lingo for “killed in action”.
    https://twitter.com/olex_scherba/status/1502254582906433538

    200? A double wrong-answer Pointless death?
  • boulayboulay Posts: 5,557
    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    boulay said:

    Question for anyone who knows/understands UK bankruptcy/administration law…..

    If Chelsea are, as some reports say, a couple of weeks from running out of money, is it actually more in the govt’s interests to let them go into administration and then bankruptcy than to allow a sale before then?

    Mainly wondering on the basis that if they go into administration they will have points deducted but not in danger of relegation and so not overly damaging to the club, however if they can ensure that Abramovich gets as little as possible capital value for the club as possible then surely that’s the aim but I’m not sure if the rules about bankruptcy would enable that aim.

    Sorry if this question makes no sense!

    If they go bankrupt then they're out of the league.
    What would happen in these circumstances?
    1. Receivers appointed.
    2. Bankruptcy.
    3. One hour later, new owners appointed who meet all debts and liabilities apart from loans to Abramovich.
    I wonder how significant that loan from Abramovich is? Did he do it as a loan, rather than simply as a gift, for precisely this scenario?
    I always assumed the loan was to dodge FFP regulations in some way. I’m now wondering if there is the potential that the loan/debt is sold to an investor in say Mid East/China and the funds buying the debt are paid into an account in a country that does not have sanctions against him.

    So for example if a new buyer buys the assets of Chelsea for 1.5b but there is still a legally binding debt to (what ultimately looks like a offshore company) then at some point that debt can be called in - Abramovich never apparently intended to call it in but it can be.

    So the company (1.5b Ltd) that Chelsea owes 1.5b speaks to, for example Sheik X and issues paperwork confirming they have sold the debt to Sheik X for 1b.

    Conveniently 1.5b Ltd has a bank account with Emirates bank to where the proceeds are paid.

    Emirates bank receives instruction to pay consultancy fees to Abman Romanovich Ltd account.

    At some point in the future Sheik X calls in loan of 1.5b from Chelsea making a nice 0.5b turn.

    Job done.



  • NorthofStokeNorthofStoke Posts: 1,758
    biggles said:

    Leon said:
    If China starts having a really nasty outbreak to worry about, I’m guessing we need to stop hoping they’ll mediate in Ukraine and tell Putin to pack it in.
    Probably increases their desire to do so.
This discussion has been closed.