People who think “Wokeness” is just a silly rehash of “political correctness gone mad” are sinister morons. Woke is infinitely more dangerous. It seeks to deconstruct western cultural pride and self confidence, until the Chinese just stomp all over us
I wouldn’t worry too much. To me the extreme edges if it are just the same old stuff that’s been going on in university faculties since the 60s, but now we have the internet and social media so it’s more visible.
Same with far right nativists or far left tankies: they were always there, but now get to plaster their nonsense everywhere through anonymous Twitter accounts.
No. You are completely and dangerously wrong. Think again
Wasting yet more time doing yet more fucking customs forms this time to export products which are zero tariff zero quota zero VAT from one place to another to declare that its the same fucking standards on one side of the border as it is on the other.
Seriously, this is why the Border Operating Model doesn't work and why we're completely gumming up our border so that everything takes an eternity to get through. Pointless red tape to declare that no tariff is payable, that no vat is payable, that no standards are different because our standards are their standards are our fucking standards. What is the point in all this?
Before some arse says "but you voted for this", no I didn't. "This" is the Boris Brexit deal. Where after decades of cutting red tape cost and petty bureaucracy the Tory party decided to fuck all that off and impose as much as possible. Not because we actually have diverged and there is anything to check. But because we might want to do so at some point in the future.
Madness. And still prannocks say "but this is much better for the country than we had before". Is it fuck.
This is what you voted for. They literally said we'd leave the Single Market and Customs Union during the campaign.
And there isn't a single non-EU EEA nation in the Customs Union anyway.
So if you wanted to leave the EU but still have all EU benefits then I'm sorry but that's your own mistake.
And we actually have diverged. UK customs rules are not 100% the same as EU ones anymore. UK tariff schedules are not 100% the same as EU ones anymore. So the divergence is very real which is what we voted for.
So fill in the forms and quit moaning.
There was no need to leave the Single Market when we left the EU. That is a specific decision taken by he post-referendum Government. The EEA always was and still is an option - indeed the best option. It is only he idiocy of the Governments since 2016 that has prevented it being seriously considered.
If either May or Boris had gone for full EEA and full free movement then no way would the Tories have won a majority in 2019 and Brexit would not have got done as Farage's Brexit Party would have got about 15-20% of the vote. The Leave vote would thus still have been split rather than united as it was in December 2019 behind Boris' Brexit Deal
I know how much you love quoting polls as if they are the only thing in the world that matters so here is one that I quoted in a PB thread header the day after Leave won the referendum.
"A Yougov poll on 8th June showed that 42% of Leave supporters would prefer the EFTA/EEA route post-Brexit with 45% opposing. I would contend that this would indicate that overall there would be a clear majority of the country that would choose EFTA/EEA over complete separation from the Single Market."
The Government governs for the whole country not just those who won one particular side of a vote. It was incumbent upon them to seek a compromise, especially given that it was likely a majority of the electorate would have been happy with a soft Brexit. That we didn't do that was entirely due to a PM who did not understand Brexit and thought it was all about keeping the 'furrners' out followed by a PM who would have trouble finding the fluff in his belly button without a map and instructions.
So most Leave voters opposed EEA/EFTA, compared to the vast majority of Leave voters who voted for Boris' Deal in 2019.
Thanks for confirming I was absolutely right and Remain would have won in 2016 if the alternative was just Leave to EEA and keep free movement as most Leavers would not have bothered to turn out to vote Leave for just EEA
Nope you are not right and that is not what the figures showed. Given that almost half of Leave voters wanted to remain in the EEA and, given that we were leaving, a large majority of Remain voters would have wanted to minimise the damage as they saw it, then there would have been - and I contend still will be - a clear majority in favour of EFTA/EEA membership. I have the figures behind me. You have nothing but your rather singular views.
99% of Remain voters would still have voted Remain over Leave to EEA in the 2016 referendum. However plenty of working class Leave voters in the North and Midlands would have stayed home if Leave promised to keep free movement still and stay in the EEA.
So Remain would have won the referendum with about 60% of the vote and we would still be in the EU and no compromise would have been needed as there would have been no Brexit.
You won on the back of immigration control promises, EEA alone was never going to get you over 50% given we were outside the Eurozone in the EU anyway
We can still try for an EFTA deal with Norway, Switzerland, Iceland and Liechtenstein which preserves some elements of the single market and free movement. UKIP may protest a little but the referendum was about leaving the EU not ending all immigration and trade completely
A Starmer government may well do a version of that, especially if reliant on LD confidence and supply. Though given he needs the redwall seats I doubt he would agree to full free movement again. In a generation or two even the Tories might accept that to get back to power.
However the Tories now will not touch it with a bargepole given the threat of leakage to Farage and Tice. Plus Boris' current deal still has immigration just using a points system not free movement and trade deals with the EU and beyond anyway
Sorry I just realised I made a mistake. I was actually quoting you.
That full post should have been:
In June 2016 in response to my thread on joining the EEA HYUFD said:
"No, just realpolitik. We can still try for an EFTA deal with Norway, Switzerland, Iceland and Liechtenstein which preserves some elements of the single market and free movement. UKIP may protest a little but the referendum was about leaving the EU not ending all immigration and trade completely"
You were the one agreeing with me and advocating EFTA after the referendum.
People who think “Wokeness” is just a silly rehash of “political correctness gone mad” are sinister morons. Woke is infinitely more dangerous. It seeks to deconstruct western cultural pride and self confidence, until the Chinese just stomp all over us
🔷👀 MPs and insiders involved in the “shadow whipping operation” to shore up support for Boris Johnson amid partygate have told PoliticsHome they are “more and more confident” serious threats to his leadership from within have dampened
People who think “Wokeness” is just a silly rehash of “political correctness gone mad” are sinister morons. Woke is infinitely more dangerous. It seeks to deconstruct western cultural pride and self confidence, until the Chinese just stomp all over us
I wouldn’t worry too much. To me the extreme edges if it are just the same old stuff that’s been going on in university faculties since the 60s, but now we have the internet and social media so it’s more visible.
Same with far right nativists or far left tankies: they were always there, but now get to plaster their nonsense everywhere through anonymous Twitter accounts.
No. You are completely and dangerously wrong. Think again
🔷👀 MPs and insiders involved in the “shadow whipping operation” to shore up support for Boris Johnson amid partygate have told PoliticsHome they are “more and more confident” serious threats to his leadership from within have dampened
Wasting yet more time doing yet more fucking customs forms this time to export products which are zero tariff zero quota zero VAT from one place to another to declare that its the same fucking standards on one side of the border as it is on the other.
Seriously, this is why the Border Operating Model doesn't work and why we're completely gumming up our border so that everything takes an eternity to get through. Pointless red tape to declare that no tariff is payable, that no vat is payable, that no standards are different because our standards are their standards are our fucking standards. What is the point in all this?
Before some arse says "but you voted for this", no I didn't. "This" is the Boris Brexit deal. Where after decades of cutting red tape cost and petty bureaucracy the Tory party decided to fuck all that off and impose as much as possible. Not because we actually have diverged and there is anything to check. But because we might want to do so at some point in the future.
Madness. And still prannocks say "but this is much better for the country than we had before". Is it fuck.
This is what you voted for. They literally said we'd leave the Single Market and Customs Union during the campaign.
And there isn't a single non-EU EEA nation in the Customs Union anyway.
So if you wanted to leave the EU but still have all EU benefits then I'm sorry but that's your own mistake.
And we actually have diverged. UK customs rules are not 100% the same as EU ones anymore. UK tariff schedules are not 100% the same as EU ones anymore. So the divergence is very real which is what we voted for.
So fill in the forms and quit moaning.
There was no need to leave the Single Market when we left the EU. That is a specific decision taken by he post-referendum Government. The EEA always was and still is an option - indeed the best option. It is only he idiocy of the Governments since 2016 that has prevented it being seriously considered.
If either May or Boris had gone for full EEA and full free movement then no way would the Tories have won a majority in 2019 and Brexit would not have got done as Farage's Brexit Party would have got about 15-20% of the vote. The Leave vote would thus still have been split rather than united as it was in December 2019 behind Boris' Brexit Deal
I know how much you love quoting polls as if they are the only thing in the world that matters so here is one that I quoted in a PB thread header the day after Leave won the referendum.
"A Yougov poll on 8th June showed that 42% of Leave supporters would prefer the EFTA/EEA route post-Brexit with 45% opposing. I would contend that this would indicate that overall there would be a clear majority of the country that would choose EFTA/EEA over complete separation from the Single Market."
The Government governs for the whole country not just those who won one particular side of a vote. It was incumbent upon them to seek a compromise, especially given that it was likely a majority of the electorate would have been happy with a soft Brexit. That we didn't do that was entirely due to a PM who did not understand Brexit and thought it was all about keeping the 'furrners' out followed by a PM who would have trouble finding the fluff in his belly button without a map and instructions.
So most Leave voters opposed EEA/EFTA, compared to the vast majority of Leave voters who voted for Boris' Deal in 2019.
Thanks for confirming I was absolutely right and Remain would have won in 2016 if the alternative was just Leave to EEA and keep free movement as most Leavers would not have bothered to turn out to vote Leave for just EEA
Nope you are not right and that is not what the figures showed. Given that almost half of Leave voters wanted to remain in the EEA and, given that we were leaving, a large majority of Remain voters would have wanted to minimise the damage as they saw it, then there would have been - and I contend still will be - a clear majority in favour of EFTA/EEA membership. I have the figures behind me. You have nothing but your rather singular views.
99% of Remain voters would still have voted Remain over Leave to EEA in the 2016 referendum. However plenty of working class Leave voters in the North and Midlands would have stayed home if Leave promised to keep free movement still and stay in the EEA.
So Remain would have won the referendum with about 60% of the vote and we would still be in the EU and no compromise would have been needed as there would have been no Brexit.
You won on the back of immigration control promises, EEA alone was never going to get you over 50% given we were outside the Eurozone in the EU anyway
If Boris Brexit had been the promise, leave would have lost.
Boris got 43.6% in 2019 for his Brexit Deal. Add the Brexit Party's 3% and that is 46% for a hard Brexit outside the EEA and CU.
I doubt EEA plus free movement would even have got to 40% in a straight fight with Remain in 2016
No, he got 43.6% in a choice between him and the prospect of Corbyn as PM.
Wasting yet more time doing yet more fucking customs forms this time to export products which are zero tariff zero quota zero VAT from one place to another to declare that its the same fucking standards on one side of the border as it is on the other.
Seriously, this is why the Border Operating Model doesn't work and why we're completely gumming up our border so that everything takes an eternity to get through. Pointless red tape to declare that no tariff is payable, that no vat is payable, that no standards are different because our standards are their standards are our fucking standards. What is the point in all this?
Before some arse says "but you voted for this", no I didn't. "This" is the Boris Brexit deal. Where after decades of cutting red tape cost and petty bureaucracy the Tory party decided to fuck all that off and impose as much as possible. Not because we actually have diverged and there is anything to check. But because we might want to do so at some point in the future.
Madness. And still prannocks say "but this is much better for the country than we had before". Is it fuck.
This is what you voted for. They literally said we'd leave the Single Market and Customs Union during the campaign.
And there isn't a single non-EU EEA nation in the Customs Union anyway.
So if you wanted to leave the EU but still have all EU benefits then I'm sorry but that's your own mistake.
And we actually have diverged. UK customs rules are not 100% the same as EU ones anymore. UK tariff schedules are not 100% the same as EU ones anymore. So the divergence is very real which is what we voted for.
So fill in the forms and quit moaning.
There was no need to leave the Single Market when we left the EU. That is a specific decision taken by he post-referendum Government. The EEA always was and still is an option - indeed the best option. It is only he idiocy of the Governments since 2016 that has prevented it being seriously considered.
If either May or Boris had gone for full EEA and full free movement then no way would the Tories have won a majority in 2019 and Brexit would not have got done as Farage's Brexit Party would have got about 15-20% of the vote. The Leave vote would thus still have been split rather than united as it was in December 2019 behind Boris' Brexit Deal
I know how much you love quoting polls as if they are the only thing in the world that matters so here is one that I quoted in a PB thread header the day after Leave won the referendum.
"A Yougov poll on 8th June showed that 42% of Leave supporters would prefer the EFTA/EEA route post-Brexit with 45% opposing. I would contend that this would indicate that overall there would be a clear majority of the country that would choose EFTA/EEA over complete separation from the Single Market."
The Government governs for the whole country not just those who won one particular side of a vote. It was incumbent upon them to seek a compromise, especially given that it was likely a majority of the electorate would have been happy with a soft Brexit. That we didn't do that was entirely due to a PM who did not understand Brexit and thought it was all about keeping the 'furrners' out followed by a PM who would have trouble finding the fluff in his belly button without a map and instructions.
So most Leave voters opposed EEA/EFTA, compared to the vast majority of Leave voters who voted for Boris' Deal in 2019.
Thanks for confirming I was absolutely right and Remain would have won in 2016 if the alternative was just Leave to EEA and keep free movement as most Leavers would not have bothered to turn out to vote Leave for just EEA
Nope you are not right and that is not what the figures showed. Given that almost half of Leave voters wanted to remain in the EEA and, given that we were leaving, a large majority of Remain voters would have wanted to minimise the damage as they saw it, then there would have been - and I contend still will be - a clear majority in favour of EFTA/EEA membership. I have the figures behind me. You have nothing but your rather singular views.
99% of Remain voters would still have voted Remain over Leave to EEA in the 2016 referendum. However plenty of working class Leave voters in the North and Midlands would have stayed home if Leave promised to keep free movement still and stay in the EEA.
So Remain would have won the referendum with about 60% of the vote and we would still be in the EU and no compromise would have been needed as there would have been no Brexit.
You won on the back of immigration control promises, EEA alone was never going to get you over 50% given we were outside the Eurozone in the EU anyway
If Boris Brexit had been the promise, leave would have lost.
The irony being that he wanted to lose.
Yep, one of the many back of fag packet calculations that went wrong.
In more 'woke doesn't exist' news, Exeter Chiefs are to rebrand after being accused of cultural appropriation (by, if I remember the original story correctly, an utter pain in the arse). They will retain the name but base it on Celtic imagery instead. Although I do sort of get it I'm slightly puzzled as to why cultural appropriation of Native Americans is wrong but of Celts is ok. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union/2022/01/27/exeter-chiefs-replace-native-american-themed-imagery-end-season/
I don't want to get too dragged into this discussion, but most people in the UK are descended from the pre-Saxon native peoples, including Celts, the Anglo-Saxon incomers, AND the Norman incomers post-Hastings. Probably few people here have significant Native American heritage. Moreover, Celtic culture is basically extinct. All that's left are some pockets of Brythonic and Goidelic language, which are grand-daughter languages of any possible proto-Celtic language. Celtic as an identity is distant and loosely held, in much the same way as, say, Goths. There comes a point when there's nobody really left to feel offended. When was the last time you met someone who described their identity as "Celt"?
A lot of what passes for Celtic culture is an invention of the Romantic period, as with much of the ancient origins of the various national identities of Europe. It serves fairly directly as the bedrock for non-English identity in the islands of Britain and Ireland.
Is Exeter far enough West to claim a lineage from the "Celts" in the South West of England? I don't know.
On the one hand it is all a nonsense, but on the other hand it touches at a deep level on people's sense of identity. It's easy to feel a bit annoyed that they're exploiting other people's identity to make money. That doesn't sit comfortably with me.
Exeter has a long and colourful history as a Roman garrison, home to early English poetry, a loyal Royalist city, and more. Surely the rugby club can create a club identity based on some of the real local history instead of lazily appropriating somebody else's?
I consider myself fairly woke on race (if not quite other stuff) as my daughter is mixed race, my wife from a indian muslim heritage and dont believe in borders really . Honestly though I really dont get the argument about cultural appropriation especially when not done to ridicule etc. If the world never did any cultural appropriation then it would be a very insular,ignorant of other cultures and divided world . I am not a huge fan of sports teams being given hyped up names and prefer a straight Exeter/colchester./liverpool FC etc but if they are to have hyped up nicknames I dont think Exeter have anything to feel sorry for with their Chiefs nickname. After all isn't copying a form of flattery ?
Completely agreed. I backed the BLM protests and defended the acquittal of the statue pullers, I too think I'm very woke on race but the one thing I can not understand is 'cultural appropriation'.
Isn't cultural appropriation what we used to call multiculturalism or being a melting pot.
Learning and adopting and adapting elements from other cultures is a key strength and benefit of immigration and having an open and welcoming society so how can it be a bad thing?
[SNIP] But I do agree that the names are not chosen as terms of ridicule or disrepect, but more out of a wish to project a fierce, proud image. .
Still, the sport with the best names in the world - ancient and modern, here and abroad - is, I have to admit, football. Consider England: Sheffield Wednesday. That would baffle the Americans. Is Wednesday the fiercest day of the week? possibly not. Kudos to Sheffield Wednesday for sticking with it into the modern age. Consider Scotland: Inverness Caledonian Thistle. Really, really Scottish. More Scottish than Partick Thistle. Consider also the bafflingly poetic Heart of Midlothian and Queen of the South. Again, would baffle the Americans. Consider the wonderful semi-final of the (I think) 1904 FA Cup, between Thornaby Utopians and Middlesbrough Ironopolis. Consider Bolivia, where, historically, the two most successful teams are called "The Strongest" and "Always Ready". The Strongest normally win - apart from, presumably, when they are not ready. Consider Europe: Go-Ahead Eagles, Young Boys of Berne. Helpfully, these advertise their silliness by naming themselves in English: I'm sure there are names just as baffling if you are able to delve into other languages.
AC Milan also have an English name, weirdly. They are not AC Milano.
And I can't believe you missed out Grasshoppers Zurich!
"AC Milan was founded as Milan Foot-Ball and Cricket Club in 1899 by English expatriates Alfred Edwards and Herbert Kilpin."
Wasting yet more time doing yet more fucking customs forms this time to export products which are zero tariff zero quota zero VAT from one place to another to declare that its the same fucking standards on one side of the border as it is on the other.
Seriously, this is why the Border Operating Model doesn't work and why we're completely gumming up our border so that everything takes an eternity to get through. Pointless red tape to declare that no tariff is payable, that no vat is payable, that no standards are different because our standards are their standards are our fucking standards. What is the point in all this?
Before some arse says "but you voted for this", no I didn't. "This" is the Boris Brexit deal. Where after decades of cutting red tape cost and petty bureaucracy the Tory party decided to fuck all that off and impose as much as possible. Not because we actually have diverged and there is anything to check. But because we might want to do so at some point in the future.
Madness. And still prannocks say "but this is much better for the country than we had before". Is it fuck.
This is what you voted for. They literally said we'd leave the Single Market and Customs Union during the campaign.
And there isn't a single non-EU EEA nation in the Customs Union anyway.
So if you wanted to leave the EU but still have all EU benefits then I'm sorry but that's your own mistake.
And we actually have diverged. UK customs rules are not 100% the same as EU ones anymore. UK tariff schedules are not 100% the same as EU ones anymore. So the divergence is very real which is what we voted for.
So fill in the forms and quit moaning.
There was no need to leave the Single Market when we left the EU. That is a specific decision taken by he post-referendum Government. The EEA always was and still is an option - indeed the best option. It is only he idiocy of the Governments since 2016 that has prevented it being seriously considered.
If either May or Boris had gone for full EEA and full free movement then no way would the Tories have won a majority in 2019 and Brexit would not have got done as Farage's Brexit Party would have got about 15-20% of the vote. The Leave vote would thus still have been split rather than united as it was in December 2019 behind Boris' Brexit Deal
I know how much you love quoting polls as if they are the only thing in the world that matters so here is one that I quoted in a PB thread header the day after Leave won the referendum.
"A Yougov poll on 8th June showed that 42% of Leave supporters would prefer the EFTA/EEA route post-Brexit with 45% opposing. I would contend that this would indicate that overall there would be a clear majority of the country that would choose EFTA/EEA over complete separation from the Single Market."
The Government governs for the whole country not just those who won one particular side of a vote. It was incumbent upon them to seek a compromise, especially given that it was likely a majority of the electorate would have been happy with a soft Brexit. That we didn't do that was entirely due to a PM who did not understand Brexit and thought it was all about keeping the 'furrners' out followed by a PM who would have trouble finding the fluff in his belly button without a map and instructions.
So most Leave voters opposed EEA/EFTA, compared to the vast majority of Leave voters who voted for Boris' Deal in 2019.
Thanks for confirming I was absolutely right and Remain would have won in 2016 if the alternative was just Leave to EEA and keep free movement as most Leavers would not have bothered to turn out to vote Leave for just EEA
Nope you are not right and that is not what the figures showed. Given that almost half of Leave voters wanted to remain in the EEA and, given that we were leaving, a large majority of Remain voters would have wanted to minimise the damage as they saw it, then there would have been - and I contend still will be - a clear majority in favour of EFTA/EEA membership. I have the figures behind me. You have nothing but your rather singular views.
99% of Remain voters would still have voted Remain over Leave to EEA in the 2016 referendum. However plenty of working class Leave voters in the North and Midlands would have stayed home if Leave promised to keep free movement still and stay in the EEA.
So Remain would have won the referendum with about 60% of the vote and we would still be in the EU and no compromise would have been needed as there would have been no Brexit.
You won on the back of immigration control promises, EEA alone was never going to get you over 50% given we were outside the Eurozone in the EU anyway
We can still try for an EFTA deal with Norway, Switzerland, Iceland and Liechtenstein which preserves some elements of the single market and free movement. UKIP may protest a little but the referendum was about leaving the EU not ending all immigration and trade completely
A Starmer government may well do a version of that, especially if reliant on LD confidence and supply. Though given he needs the redwall seats I doubt he would agree to full free movement again. In a generation or two even the Tories might accept that to get back to power.
However the Tories now will not touch it with a bargepole given the threat of leakage to Farage and Tice. Plus Boris' current deal still has immigration just using a points system not free movement and trade deals with the EU and beyond anyway
Sorry I just realised I made a mistake. I was actually quoting you.
That full post should have been:
In June 2016 in response to my thread on joining the EEA HYUFD said:
"No, just realpolitik. We can still try for an EFTA deal with Norway, Switzerland, Iceland and Liechtenstein which preserves some elements of the single market and free movement. UKIP may protest a little but the referendum was about leaving the EU not ending all immigration and trade completely"
You were the one agreeing with me and advocating EFTA after the referendum.
What happened to you?
As a (for now) die-hard Boris supporter, he has adopted his relationship with consistency.
People who think “Wokeness” is just a silly rehash of “political correctness gone mad” are sinister morons. Woke is infinitely more dangerous. It seeks to deconstruct western cultural pride and self confidence, until the Chinese just stomp all over us
People who think “Wokeness” is just a silly rehash of “political correctness gone mad” are sinister morons. Woke is infinitely more dangerous. It seeks to deconstruct western cultural pride and self confidence, until the Chinese just stomp all over us
Wasting yet more time doing yet more fucking customs forms this time to export products which are zero tariff zero quota zero VAT from one place to another to declare that its the same fucking standards on one side of the border as it is on the other.
Seriously, this is why the Border Operating Model doesn't work and why we're completely gumming up our border so that everything takes an eternity to get through. Pointless red tape to declare that no tariff is payable, that no vat is payable, that no standards are different because our standards are their standards are our fucking standards. What is the point in all this?
Before some arse says "but you voted for this", no I didn't. "This" is the Boris Brexit deal. Where after decades of cutting red tape cost and petty bureaucracy the Tory party decided to fuck all that off and impose as much as possible. Not because we actually have diverged and there is anything to check. But because we might want to do so at some point in the future.
Madness. And still prannocks say "but this is much better for the country than we had before". Is it fuck.
This is what you voted for. They literally said we'd leave the Single Market and Customs Union during the campaign.
And there isn't a single non-EU EEA nation in the Customs Union anyway.
So if you wanted to leave the EU but still have all EU benefits then I'm sorry but that's your own mistake.
And we actually have diverged. UK customs rules are not 100% the same as EU ones anymore. UK tariff schedules are not 100% the same as EU ones anymore. So the divergence is very real which is what we voted for.
So fill in the forms and quit moaning.
There was no need to leave the Single Market when we left the EU. That is a specific decision taken by he post-referendum Government. The EEA always was and still is an option - indeed the best option. It is only he idiocy of the Governments since 2016 that has prevented it being seriously considered.
If either May or Boris had gone for full EEA and full free movement then no way would the Tories have won a majority in 2019 and Brexit would not have got done as Farage's Brexit Party would have got about 15-20% of the vote. The Leave vote would thus still have been split rather than united as it was in December 2019 behind Boris' Brexit Deal
I know how much you love quoting polls as if they are the only thing in the world that matters so here is one that I quoted in a PB thread header the day after Leave won the referendum.
"A Yougov poll on 8th June showed that 42% of Leave supporters would prefer the EFTA/EEA route post-Brexit with 45% opposing. I would contend that this would indicate that overall there would be a clear majority of the country that would choose EFTA/EEA over complete separation from the Single Market."
The Government governs for the whole country not just those who won one particular side of a vote. It was incumbent upon them to seek a compromise, especially given that it was likely a majority of the electorate would have been happy with a soft Brexit. That we didn't do that was entirely due to a PM who did not understand Brexit and thought it was all about keeping the 'furrners' out followed by a PM who would have trouble finding the fluff in his belly button without a map and instructions.
So most Leave voters opposed EEA/EFTA, compared to the vast majority of Leave voters who voted for Boris' Deal in 2019.
Thanks for confirming I was absolutely right and Remain would have won in 2016 if the alternative was just Leave to EEA and keep free movement as most Leavers would not have bothered to turn out to vote Leave for just EEA
Nope you are not right and that is not what the figures showed. Given that almost half of Leave voters wanted to remain in the EEA and, given that we were leaving, a large majority of Remain voters would have wanted to minimise the damage as they saw it, then there would have been - and I contend still will be - a clear majority in favour of EFTA/EEA membership. I have the figures behind me. You have nothing but your rather singular views.
99% of Remain voters would still have voted Remain over Leave to EEA in the 2016 referendum. However plenty of working class Leave voters in the North and Midlands would have stayed home if Leave promised to keep free movement still and stay in the EEA.
So Remain would have won the referendum with about 60% of the vote and we would still be in the EU and no compromise would have been needed as there would have been no Brexit.
You won on the back of immigration control promises, EEA alone was never going to get you over 50% given we were outside the Eurozone in the EU anyway
We can still try for an EFTA deal with Norway, Switzerland, Iceland and Liechtenstein which preserves some elements of the single market and free movement. UKIP may protest a little but the referendum was about leaving the EU not ending all immigration and trade completely
A Starmer government may well do a version of that, especially if reliant on LD confidence and supply. Though given he needs the redwall seats I doubt he would agree to full free movement again. In a generation or two even the Tories might accept that to get back to power.
However the Tories now will not touch it with a bargepole given the threat of leakage to Farage and Tice. Plus Boris' current deal still has immigration just using a points system not free movement and trade deals with the EU and beyond anyway
Sorry I just realised I made a mistake. I was actually quoting you.
That full post should have been:
In June 2016 in response to my thread on joining the EEA HYUFD said:
"No, just realpolitik. We can still try for an EFTA deal with Norway, Switzerland, Iceland and Liechtenstein which preserves some elements of the single market and free movement. UKIP may protest a little but the referendum was about leaving the EU not ending all immigration and trade completely"
You were the one agreeing with me and advocating EFTA after the referendum.
What happened to you?
"Absolutely no one is talking about leaving the Single Market".
r4 6 pm news leading on kabul. Lot of mileage left in that. Goldsmith been told to explain to Lords why he lied to them.
Just on that, the media have been showing lots of cuddly puppies all day as part of the evacuation and I would suggest not to underestimate just how popular their evacuation is with large parts of the population
Dog ownership has exploded during covid and I cannot recall a time when I have seen so many families out with their dogs on Llandudno and Colwyn Bays beaches and promenades
In more 'woke doesn't exist' news, Exeter Chiefs are to rebrand after being accused of cultural appropriation (by, if I remember the original story correctly, an utter pain in the arse). They will retain the name but base it on Celtic imagery instead. Although I do sort of get it I'm slightly puzzled as to why cultural appropriation of Native Americans is wrong but of Celts is ok. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union/2022/01/27/exeter-chiefs-replace-native-american-themed-imagery-end-season/
I don't want to get too dragged into this discussion, but most people in the UK are descended from the pre-Saxon native peoples, including Celts, the Anglo-Saxon incomers, AND the Norman incomers post-Hastings. Probably few people here have significant Native American heritage. Moreover, Celtic culture is basically extinct. All that's left are some pockets of Brythonic and Goidelic language, which are grand-daughter languages of any possible proto-Celtic language. Celtic as an identity is distant and loosely held, in much the same way as, say, Goths. There comes a point when there's nobody really left to feel offended. When was the last time you met someone who described their identity as "Celt"?
A lot of what passes for Celtic culture is an invention of the Romantic period, as with much of the ancient origins of the various national identities of Europe. It serves fairly directly as the bedrock for non-English identity in the islands of Britain and Ireland.
Is Exeter far enough West to claim a lineage from the "Celts" in the South West of England? I don't know.
On the one hand it is all a nonsense, but on the other hand it touches at a deep level on people's sense of identity. It's easy to feel a bit annoyed that they're exploiting other people's identity to make money. That doesn't sit comfortably with me.
Exeter has a long and colourful history as a Roman garrison, home to early English poetry, a loyal Royalist city, and more. Surely the rugby club can create a club identity based on some of the real local history instead of lazily appropriating somebody else's?
I consider myself fairly woke on race (if not quite other stuff) as my daughter is mixed race, my wife from a indian muslim heritage and dont believe in borders really . Honestly though I really dont get the argument about cultural appropriation especially when not done to ridicule etc. If the world never did any cultural appropriation then it would be a very insular,ignorant of other cultures and divided world . I am not a huge fan of sports teams being given hyped up names and prefer a straight Exeter/colchester./liverpool FC etc but if they are to have hyped up nicknames I dont think Exeter have anything to feel sorry for with their Chiefs nickname. After all isn't copying a form of flattery ?
Completely agreed. I backed the BLM protests and defended the acquittal of the statue pullers, I too think I'm very woke on race but the one thing I can not understand is 'cultural appropriation'.
Isn't cultural appropriation what we used to call multiculturalism or being a melting pot.
Learning and adopting and adapting elements from other cultures is a key strength and benefit of immigration and having an open and welcoming society so how can it be a bad thing?
[SNIP] But I do agree that the names are not chosen as terms of ridicule or disrepect, but more out of a wish to project a fierce, proud image. .
Still, the sport with the best names in the world - ancient and modern, here and abroad - is, I have to admit, football. Consider England: Sheffield Wednesday. That would baffle the Americans. Is Wednesday the fiercest day of the week? possibly not. Kudos to Sheffield Wednesday for sticking with it into the modern age. Consider Scotland: Inverness Caledonian Thistle. Really, really Scottish. More Scottish than Partick Thistle. Consider also the bafflingly poetic Heart of Midlothian and Queen of the South. Again, would baffle the Americans. Consider the wonderful semi-final of the (I think) 1904 FA Cup, between Thornaby Utopians and Middlesbrough Ironopolis. Consider Bolivia, where, historically, the two most successful teams are called "The Strongest" and "Always Ready". The Strongest normally win - apart from, presumably, when they are not ready. Consider Europe: Go-Ahead Eagles, Young Boys of Berne. Helpfully, these advertise their silliness by naming themselves in English: I'm sure there are names just as baffling if you are able to delve into other languages.
AC Milan also have an English name, weirdly. They are not AC Milano.
And I can't believe you missed out Grasshoppers Zurich!
"AC Milan was founded as Milan Foot-Ball and Cricket Club in 1899 by English expatriates Alfred Edwards and Herbert Kilpin."
As for joining the EEA I shall tell you what Michael Gove privately thinks about that.
Not going to happen, the Leavers (and The Notorious CRG in particular) would view it as a stepping stone to rejoining and oust any Tory PM to try it.
Labour will not offer to join the EEA as they know the Tories and Farage will spin it as trying to overturn democracy.
The other not so inconsiderable problem is getting our European friends to agree, after the whole Brexit farrago and exit deal they really don't want to have to go through that again.
The only terms they'd offer is something so humiliating and one sided that no UK Prime Minister could ever countenance it.
"no UK Prime Minister could ever countenance it."
Suez surely demonstrated that PMs can be backed into almost anything.
r4 6 pm news leading on kabul. Lot of mileage left in that. Goldsmith been told to explain to Lords why he lied to them.
Just on that, the media have been showing lots of cuddly puppies all day as part of the evacuation and I would suggest not to underestimate just how popular their evacuation is with large parts of the population
Dog ownership has exploded during covid and I cannot recall a time when I have seen so many families out with their dogs on Llandudno and Colwyn Bays beaches and promenades
Dog prices have more than trebled, with even bog standard cockapoo puppies now selling for £2500-£3000.
But, as companies start to insist that their office workers start to return to the office, there are signs that the number of dogs being given in to rescue centres is on the rise.
People who think “Wokeness” is just a silly rehash of “political correctness gone mad” are sinister morons. Woke is infinitely more dangerous. It seeks to deconstruct western cultural pride and self confidence, until the Chinese just stomp all over us
Why do you hunt out all these slightly mad right-wing sites to source your "Wokestapo" stuff?
(By the way, 'Wokestapo" is particularly feeble for a literary giant like you. It doesn't exactly roll off the tongue, does it?)
Every quote they use, as they say, comes direct from Princeton Uni
Okay. So why don't you give us the links direct from Princeton Uni then, rather than mediated with commentary from a far-right website? Let's read the primary sources for ourselves.
Oh, and can you at least agree that your use of "Wokestapo" is poor, for several reasons, at least one of them rather obvious?
Wasting yet more time doing yet more fucking customs forms this time to export products which are zero tariff zero quota zero VAT from one place to another to declare that its the same fucking standards on one side of the border as it is on the other.
Seriously, this is why the Border Operating Model doesn't work and why we're completely gumming up our border so that everything takes an eternity to get through. Pointless red tape to declare that no tariff is payable, that no vat is payable, that no standards are different because our standards are their standards are our fucking standards. What is the point in all this?
Before some arse says "but you voted for this", no I didn't. "This" is the Boris Brexit deal. Where after decades of cutting red tape cost and petty bureaucracy the Tory party decided to fuck all that off and impose as much as possible. Not because we actually have diverged and there is anything to check. But because we might want to do so at some point in the future.
Madness. And still prannocks say "but this is much better for the country than we had before". Is it fuck.
This is what you voted for. They literally said we'd leave the Single Market and Customs Union during the campaign.
And there isn't a single non-EU EEA nation in the Customs Union anyway.
So if you wanted to leave the EU but still have all EU benefits then I'm sorry but that's your own mistake.
And we actually have diverged. UK customs rules are not 100% the same as EU ones anymore. UK tariff schedules are not 100% the same as EU ones anymore. So the divergence is very real which is what we voted for.
So fill in the forms and quit moaning.
There was no need to leave the Single Market when we left the EU. That is a specific decision taken by he post-referendum Government. The EEA always was and still is an option - indeed the best option. It is only he idiocy of the Governments since 2016 that has prevented it being seriously considered.
If either May or Boris had gone for full EEA and full free movement then no way would the Tories have won a majority in 2019 and Brexit would not have got done as Farage's Brexit Party would have got about 15-20% of the vote. The Leave vote would thus still have been split rather than united as it was in December 2019 behind Boris' Brexit Deal
I know how much you love quoting polls as if they are the only thing in the world that matters so here is one that I quoted in a PB thread header the day after Leave won the referendum.
"A Yougov poll on 8th June showed that 42% of Leave supporters would prefer the EFTA/EEA route post-Brexit with 45% opposing. I would contend that this would indicate that overall there would be a clear majority of the country that would choose EFTA/EEA over complete separation from the Single Market."
The Government governs for the whole country not just those who won one particular side of a vote. It was incumbent upon them to seek a compromise, especially given that it was likely a majority of the electorate would have been happy with a soft Brexit. That we didn't do that was entirely due to a PM who did not understand Brexit and thought it was all about keeping the 'furrners' out followed by a PM who would have trouble finding the fluff in his belly button without a map and instructions.
So most Leave voters opposed EEA/EFTA, compared to the vast majority of Leave voters who voted for Boris' Deal in 2019.
Thanks for confirming I was absolutely right and Remain would have won in 2016 if the alternative was just Leave to EEA and keep free movement as most Leavers would not have bothered to turn out to vote Leave for just EEA
Nope you are not right and that is not what the figures showed. Given that almost half of Leave voters wanted to remain in the EEA and, given that we were leaving, a large majority of Remain voters would have wanted to minimise the damage as they saw it, then there would have been - and I contend still will be - a clear majority in favour of EFTA/EEA membership. I have the figures behind me. You have nothing but your rather singular views.
99% of Remain voters would still have voted Remain over Leave to EEA in the 2016 referendum. However plenty of working class Leave voters in the North and Midlands would have stayed home if Leave promised to keep free movement still and stay in the EEA.
So Remain would have won the referendum with about 60% of the vote and we would still be in the EU and no compromise would have been needed as there would have been no Brexit.
You won on the back of immigration control promises, EEA alone was never going to get you over 50% given we were outside the Eurozone in the EU anyway
If Boris Brexit had been the promise, leave would have lost.
Boris got 43.6% in 2019 for his Brexit Deal. Add the Brexit Party's 3% and that is 46% for a hard Brexit outside the EEA and CU.
I doubt EEA plus free movement would even have got to 40% in a straight fight with Remain in 2016
No, he got 43.6% in a choice between him and the prospect of Corbyn as PM.
I sometimes wonder why we even respond to his musings
People who think “Wokeness” is just a silly rehash of “political correctness gone mad” are sinister morons. Woke is infinitely more dangerous. It seeks to deconstruct western cultural pride and self confidence, until the Chinese just stomp all over us
Turns out the $100 million skull that Damien Hirst and White Cube said they sold in 2007 still belongs to them... The work appears to have been inside a storage facility in London for 15 years: https://t.co/1f8ESRj3Fh
r4 6 pm news leading on kabul. Lot of mileage left in that. Goldsmith been told to explain to Lords why he lied to them.
Just on that, the media have been showing lots of cuddly puppies all day as part of the evacuation and I would suggest not to underestimate just how popular their evacuation is with large parts of the population
Dog ownership has exploded during covid and I cannot recall a time when I have seen so many families out with their dogs on Llandudno and Colwyn Bays beaches and promenades
I love dogs and am bemused at the idea of the evacuation being popular.
People who think “Wokeness” is just a silly rehash of “political correctness gone mad” are sinister morons. Woke is infinitely more dangerous. It seeks to deconstruct western cultural pride and self confidence, until the Chinese just stomp all over us
Why do you hunt out all these slightly mad right-wing sites to source your "Wokestapo" stuff?
(By the way, 'Wokestapo" is particularly feeble for a literary giant like you. It doesn't exactly roll off the tongue, does it?)
Every quote they use, as they say, comes direct from Princeton Uni
No, they say it comes from a student run ballet company, called Princeton University Ballet. It is not Princeton University or controlled by Princeton University.
In more 'woke doesn't exist' news, Exeter Chiefs are to rebrand after being accused of cultural appropriation (by, if I remember the original story correctly, an utter pain in the arse). They will retain the name but base it on Celtic imagery instead. Although I do sort of get it I'm slightly puzzled as to why cultural appropriation of Native Americans is wrong but of Celts is ok. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union/2022/01/27/exeter-chiefs-replace-native-american-themed-imagery-end-season/
I don't want to get too dragged into this discussion, but most people in the UK are descended from the pre-Saxon native peoples, including Celts, the Anglo-Saxon incomers, AND the Norman incomers post-Hastings. Probably few people here have significant Native American heritage. Moreover, Celtic culture is basically extinct. All that's left are some pockets of Brythonic and Goidelic language, which are grand-daughter languages of any possible proto-Celtic language. Celtic as an identity is distant and loosely held, in much the same way as, say, Goths. There comes a point when there's nobody really left to feel offended. When was the last time you met someone who described their identity as "Celt"?
A lot of what passes for Celtic culture is an invention of the Romantic period, as with much of the ancient origins of the various national identities of Europe. It serves fairly directly as the bedrock for non-English identity in the islands of Britain and Ireland.
Is Exeter far enough West to claim a lineage from the "Celts" in the South West of England? I don't know.
On the one hand it is all a nonsense, but on the other hand it touches at a deep level on people's sense of identity. It's easy to feel a bit annoyed that they're exploiting other people's identity to make money. That doesn't sit comfortably with me.
Exeter has a long and colourful history as a Roman garrison, home to early English poetry, a loyal Royalist city, and more. Surely the rugby club can create a club identity based on some of the real local history instead of lazily appropriating somebody else's?
I consider myself fairly woke on race (if not quite other stuff) as my daughter is mixed race, my wife from a indian muslim heritage and dont believe in borders really . Honestly though I really dont get the argument about cultural appropriation especially when not done to ridicule etc. If the world never did any cultural appropriation then it would be a very insular,ignorant of other cultures and divided world . I am not a huge fan of sports teams being given hyped up names and prefer a straight Exeter/colchester./liverpool FC etc but if they are to have hyped up nicknames I dont think Exeter have anything to feel sorry for with their Chiefs nickname. After all isn't copying a form of flattery ?
Completely agreed. I backed the BLM protests and defended the acquittal of the statue pullers, I too think I'm very woke on race but the one thing I can not understand is 'cultural appropriation'.
Isn't cultural appropriation what we used to call multiculturalism or being a melting pot.
Learning and adopting and adapting elements from other cultures is a key strength and benefit of immigration and having an open and welcoming society so how can it be a bad thing?
[SNIP] But I do agree that the names are not chosen as terms of ridicule or disrepect, but more out of a wish to project a fierce, proud image. .
Still, the sport with the best names in the world - ancient and modern, here and abroad - is, I have to admit, football. Consider England: Sheffield Wednesday. That would baffle the Americans. Is Wednesday the fiercest day of the week? possibly not. Kudos to Sheffield Wednesday for sticking with it into the modern age. Consider Scotland: Inverness Caledonian Thistle. Really, really Scottish. More Scottish than Partick Thistle. Consider also the bafflingly poetic Heart of Midlothian and Queen of the South. Again, would baffle the Americans. Consider the wonderful semi-final of the (I think) 1904 FA Cup, between Thornaby Utopians and Middlesbrough Ironopolis. Consider Bolivia, where, historically, the two most successful teams are called "The Strongest" and "Always Ready". The Strongest normally win - apart from, presumably, when they are not ready. Consider Europe: Go-Ahead Eagles, Young Boys of Berne. Helpfully, these advertise their silliness by naming themselves in English: I'm sure there are names just as baffling if you are able to delve into other languages.
AC Milan also have an English name, weirdly. They are not AC Milano.
And I can't believe you missed out Grasshoppers Zurich!
"AC Milan was founded as Milan Foot-Ball and Cricket Club in 1899 by English expatriates Alfred Edwards and Herbert Kilpin."
Turns out the $100 million skull that Damien Hirst and White Cube said they sold in 2007 still belongs to them... The work appears to have been inside a storage facility in London for 15 years: https://t.co/1f8ESRj3Fh
Wasting yet more time doing yet more fucking customs forms this time to export products which are zero tariff zero quota zero VAT from one place to another to declare that its the same fucking standards on one side of the border as it is on the other.
Seriously, this is why the Border Operating Model doesn't work and why we're completely gumming up our border so that everything takes an eternity to get through. Pointless red tape to declare that no tariff is payable, that no vat is payable, that no standards are different because our standards are their standards are our fucking standards. What is the point in all this?
Before some arse says "but you voted for this", no I didn't. "This" is the Boris Brexit deal. Where after decades of cutting red tape cost and petty bureaucracy the Tory party decided to fuck all that off and impose as much as possible. Not because we actually have diverged and there is anything to check. But because we might want to do so at some point in the future.
Madness. And still prannocks say "but this is much better for the country than we had before". Is it fuck.
This is what you voted for. They literally said we'd leave the Single Market and Customs Union during the campaign.
And there isn't a single non-EU EEA nation in the Customs Union anyway.
So if you wanted to leave the EU but still have all EU benefits then I'm sorry but that's your own mistake.
And we actually have diverged. UK customs rules are not 100% the same as EU ones anymore. UK tariff schedules are not 100% the same as EU ones anymore. So the divergence is very real which is what we voted for.
So fill in the forms and quit moaning.
There was no need to leave the Single Market when we left the EU. That is a specific decision taken by he post-referendum Government. The EEA always was and still is an option - indeed the best option. It is only he idiocy of the Governments since 2016 that has prevented it being seriously considered.
If either May or Boris had gone for full EEA and full free movement then no way would the Tories have won a majority in 2019 and Brexit would not have got done as Farage's Brexit Party would have got about 15-20% of the vote. The Leave vote would thus still have been split rather than united as it was in December 2019 behind Boris' Brexit Deal
I know how much you love quoting polls as if they are the only thing in the world that matters so here is one that I quoted in a PB thread header the day after Leave won the referendum.
"A Yougov poll on 8th June showed that 42% of Leave supporters would prefer the EFTA/EEA route post-Brexit with 45% opposing. I would contend that this would indicate that overall there would be a clear majority of the country that would choose EFTA/EEA over complete separation from the Single Market."
The Government governs for the whole country not just those who won one particular side of a vote. It was incumbent upon them to seek a compromise, especially given that it was likely a majority of the electorate would have been happy with a soft Brexit. That we didn't do that was entirely due to a PM who did not understand Brexit and thought it was all about keeping the 'furrners' out followed by a PM who would have trouble finding the fluff in his belly button without a map and instructions.
So most Leave voters opposed EEA/EFTA, compared to the vast majority of Leave voters who voted for Boris' Deal in 2019.
Thanks for confirming I was absolutely right and Remain would have won in 2016 if the alternative was just Leave to EEA and keep free movement as most Leavers would not have bothered to turn out to vote Leave for just EEA
Nope you are not right and that is not what the figures showed. Given that almost half of Leave voters wanted to remain in the EEA and, given that we were leaving, a large majority of Remain voters would have wanted to minimise the damage as they saw it, then there would have been - and I contend still will be - a clear majority in favour of EFTA/EEA membership. I have the figures behind me. You have nothing but your rather singular views.
99% of Remain voters would still have voted Remain over Leave to EEA in the 2016 referendum. However plenty of working class Leave voters in the North and Midlands would have stayed home if Leave promised to keep free movement still and stay in the EEA.
So Remain would have won the referendum with about 60% of the vote and we would still be in the EU and no compromise would have been needed as there would have been no Brexit.
You won on the back of immigration control promises, EEA alone was never going to get you over 50% given we were outside the Eurozone in the EU anyway
We can still try for an EFTA deal with Norway, Switzerland, Iceland and Liechtenstein which preserves some elements of the single market and free movement. UKIP may protest a little but the referendum was about leaving the EU not ending all immigration and trade completely
A Starmer government may well do a version of that, especially if reliant on LD confidence and supply. Though given he needs the redwall seats I doubt he would agree to full free movement again. In a generation or two even the Tories might accept that to get back to power.
However the Tories now will not touch it with a bargepole given the threat of leakage to Farage and Tice. Plus Boris' current deal still has immigration just using a points system not free movement and trade deals with the EU and beyond anyway
Sorry I just realised I made a mistake. I was actually quoting you.
That full post should have been:
In June 2016 in response to my thread on joining the EEA HYUFD said:
"No, just realpolitik. We can still try for an EFTA deal with Norway, Switzerland, Iceland and Liechtenstein which preserves some elements of the single market and free movement. UKIP may protest a little but the referendum was about leaving the EU not ending all immigration and trade completely"
You were the one agreeing with me and advocating EFTA after the referendum.
What happened to you?
I had just voted Remain and Cameron was still Tory leader and PM (May did not even become PM until July 2016).
Most Remainers at that time would have accepted EEA as the closest alternative to Remain on offer. However they still would have voted for Remain over EEA in the Referendum if that was the main basis of the Leave campaign.
However over 5 years later, I am quite happy with the Boris Deal which respects the Leave vote in full, including ending free movement and replacing it with a points system and allowing us to do our own trade deals while still having a trade deal with the EU. I would have opposed No Deal Brexit yes but I actually think the Boris Deal is in many respects better than EEA
Wasting yet more time doing yet more fucking customs forms this time to export products which are zero tariff zero quota zero VAT from one place to another to declare that its the same fucking standards on one side of the border as it is on the other.
Seriously, this is why the Border Operating Model doesn't work and why we're completely gumming up our border so that everything takes an eternity to get through. Pointless red tape to declare that no tariff is payable, that no vat is payable, that no standards are different because our standards are their standards are our fucking standards. What is the point in all this?
Before some arse says "but you voted for this", no I didn't. "This" is the Boris Brexit deal. Where after decades of cutting red tape cost and petty bureaucracy the Tory party decided to fuck all that off and impose as much as possible. Not because we actually have diverged and there is anything to check. But because we might want to do so at some point in the future.
Madness. And still prannocks say "but this is much better for the country than we had before". Is it fuck.
This is what you voted for. They literally said we'd leave the Single Market and Customs Union during the campaign.
And there isn't a single non-EU EEA nation in the Customs Union anyway.
So if you wanted to leave the EU but still have all EU benefits then I'm sorry but that's your own mistake.
And we actually have diverged. UK customs rules are not 100% the same as EU ones anymore. UK tariff schedules are not 100% the same as EU ones anymore. So the divergence is very real which is what we voted for.
So fill in the forms and quit moaning.
There was no need to leave the Single Market when we left the EU. That is a specific decision taken by he post-referendum Government. The EEA always was and still is an option - indeed the best option. It is only he idiocy of the Governments since 2016 that has prevented it being seriously considered.
If either May or Boris had gone for full EEA and full free movement then no way would the Tories have won a majority in 2019 and Brexit would not have got done as Farage's Brexit Party would have got about 15-20% of the vote. The Leave vote would thus still have been split rather than united as it was in December 2019 behind Boris' Brexit Deal
I know how much you love quoting polls as if they are the only thing in the world that matters so here is one that I quoted in a PB thread header the day after Leave won the referendum.
"A Yougov poll on 8th June showed that 42% of Leave supporters would prefer the EFTA/EEA route post-Brexit with 45% opposing. I would contend that this would indicate that overall there would be a clear majority of the country that would choose EFTA/EEA over complete separation from the Single Market."
The Government governs for the whole country not just those who won one particular side of a vote. It was incumbent upon them to seek a compromise, especially given that it was likely a majority of the electorate would have been happy with a soft Brexit. That we didn't do that was entirely due to a PM who did not understand Brexit and thought it was all about keeping the 'furrners' out followed by a PM who would have trouble finding the fluff in his belly button without a map and instructions.
So most Leave voters opposed EEA/EFTA, compared to the vast majority of Leave voters who voted for Boris' Deal in 2019.
Thanks for confirming I was absolutely right and Remain would have won in 2016 if the alternative was just Leave to EEA and keep free movement as most Leavers would not have bothered to turn out to vote Leave for just EEA
Nope you are not right and that is not what the figures showed. Given that almost half of Leave voters wanted to remain in the EEA and, given that we were leaving, a large majority of Remain voters would have wanted to minimise the damage as they saw it, then there would have been - and I contend still will be - a clear majority in favour of EFTA/EEA membership. I have the figures behind me. You have nothing but your rather singular views.
99% of Remain voters would still have voted Remain over Leave to EEA in the 2016 referendum. However plenty of working class Leave voters in the North and Midlands would have stayed home if Leave promised to keep free movement still and stay in the EEA.
So Remain would have won the referendum with about 60% of the vote and we would still be in the EU and no compromise would have been needed as there would have been no Brexit.
You won on the back of immigration control promises, EEA alone was never going to get you over 50% given we were outside the Eurozone in the EU anyway
We can still try for an EFTA deal with Norway, Switzerland, Iceland and Liechtenstein which preserves some elements of the single market and free movement. UKIP may protest a little but the referendum was about leaving the EU not ending all immigration and trade completely
A Starmer government may well do a version of that, especially if reliant on LD confidence and supply. Though given he needs the redwall seats I doubt he would agree to full free movement again. In a generation or two even the Tories might accept that to get back to power.
However the Tories now will not touch it with a bargepole given the threat of leakage to Farage and Tice. Plus Boris' current deal still has immigration just using a points system not free movement and trade deals with the EU and beyond anyway
Sorry I just realised I made a mistake. I was actually quoting you.
That full post should have been:
In June 2016 in response to my thread on joining the EEA HYUFD said:
"No, just realpolitik. We can still try for an EFTA deal with Norway, Switzerland, Iceland and Liechtenstein which preserves some elements of the single market and free movement. UKIP may protest a little but the referendum was about leaving the EU not ending all immigration and trade completely"
You were the one agreeing with me and advocating EFTA after the referendum.
What happened to you?
"Absolutely no one is talking about leaving the Single Market".
Daniel Hannan.
Dan Hannan advocated staying in the EEA both before and after the referendum. Indeed he still does advocate it.
r4 6 pm news leading on kabul. Lot of mileage left in that. Goldsmith been told to explain to Lords why he lied to them.
Just on that, the media have been showing lots of cuddly puppies all day as part of the evacuation and I would suggest not to underestimate just how popular their evacuation is with large parts of the population
Dog ownership has exploded during covid and I cannot recall a time when I have seen so many families out with their dogs on Llandudno and Colwyn Bays beaches and promenades
Yes. Evacuation seems to be what dogs are best at. Gonna be piles of corpses outside thye rescue centre3s when everyone wants to go on hols this year and discovers what boarding costs.
This is a real moral dividing line: lovely doggies vs swarthy people. I am sure Hyduf will be along to point out that the swarthies were never going to vote con even if they got here.
r4 6 pm news leading on kabul. Lot of mileage left in that. Goldsmith been told to explain to Lords why he lied to them.
Just on that, the media have been showing lots of cuddly puppies all day as part of the evacuation and I would suggest not to underestimate just how popular their evacuation is with large parts of the population
Dog ownership has exploded during covid and I cannot recall a time when I have seen so many families out with their dogs on Llandudno and Colwyn Bays beaches and promenades
Might 'grown rapidly' be better than 'exploded'? Just that I had this vision of exploding dogs and their owners scattered along Llandudno promenade...
🔷👀 MPs and insiders involved in the “shadow whipping operation” to shore up support for Boris Johnson amid partygate have told PoliticsHome they are “more and more confident” serious threats to his leadership from within have dampened
Turns out the $100 million skull that Damien Hirst and White Cube said they sold in 2007 still belongs to them... The work appears to have been inside a storage facility in London for 15 years: https://t.co/1f8ESRj3Fh
The art market is clearly 9-bob.
You might think that; I couldn't possibly comment.
r4 6 pm news leading on kabul. Lot of mileage left in that. Goldsmith been told to explain to Lords why he lied to them.
Just on that, the media have been showing lots of cuddly puppies all day as part of the evacuation and I would suggest not to underestimate just how popular their evacuation is with large parts of the population
Dog ownership has exploded during covid and I cannot recall a time when I have seen so many families out with their dogs on Llandudno and Colwyn Bays beaches and promenades
Dog prices have more than trebled, with even bog standard cockapoo puppies now selling for £2500-£3000.
But, as companies start to insist that their office workers start to return to the office, there are signs that the number of dogs being given in to rescue centres is on the rise.
Really and I hope the worse fears of dogs being abandoned do not materialise
Mind you my beloved wife would adopt them all if she could
People who think “Wokeness” is just a silly rehash of “political correctness gone mad” are sinister morons. Woke is infinitely more dangerous. It seeks to deconstruct western cultural pride and self confidence, until the Chinese just stomp all over us
Why do you hunt out all these slightly mad right-wing sites to source your "Wokestapo" stuff?
(By the way, 'Wokestapo" is particularly feeble for a literary giant like you. It doesn't exactly roll off the tongue, does it?)
Every quote they use, as they say, comes direct from Princeton Uni
Okay. So why don't you give us the links direct from Princeton Uni then, rather than mediated with commentary from a far-right website? Let's read the primary sources for ourselves.
Oh, and can you at least agree that your use of "Wokestapo" is poor, for several reasons, at least one of them rather obvious?
Wokestapo is indeed poor. I have eaten only six olives in three days
Turns out the $100 million skull that Damien Hirst and White Cube said they sold in 2007 still belongs to them... The work appears to have been inside a storage facility in London for 15 years: https://t.co/1f8ESRj3Fh
It’s probably not even made of real diamonds, which of course they would have had to disclose to any buyer.
People who think “Wokeness” is just a silly rehash of “political correctness gone mad” are sinister morons. Woke is infinitely more dangerous. It seeks to deconstruct western cultural pride and self confidence, until the Chinese just stomp all over us
Why do you hunt out all these slightly mad right-wing sites to source your "Wokestapo" stuff?
(By the way, 'Wokestapo" is particularly feeble for a literary giant like you. It doesn't exactly roll off the tongue, does it?)
Every quote they use, as they say, comes direct from Princeton Uni
Okay. So why don't you give us the links direct from Princeton Uni then, rather than mediated with commentary from a far-right website? Let's read the primary sources for ourselves.
Oh, and can you at least agree that your use of "Wokestapo" is poor, for several reasons, at least one of them rather obvious?
If one must be used I'd have thought Wokerazzi would work better.
r4 6 pm news leading on kabul. Lot of mileage left in that. Goldsmith been told to explain to Lords why he lied to them.
Just on that, the media have been showing lots of cuddly puppies all day as part of the evacuation and I would suggest not to underestimate just how popular their evacuation is with large parts of the population
Dog ownership has exploded during covid and I cannot recall a time when I have seen so many families out with their dogs on Llandudno and Colwyn Bays beaches and promenades
I love dogs and am bemused at the idea of the evacuation being popular.
I don't think it matters about whether it is popular.
Those who dislike governments lying and being chaotic, already dislike this government. To those who don't mind that, this story does not change their vote. To people who like fluffy animals, a small number change their vote. To people with Afghan relatives or connections, a tiny number change their vote the other way.
Wasting yet more time doing yet more fucking customs forms this time to export products which are zero tariff zero quota zero VAT from one place to another to declare that its the same fucking standards on one side of the border as it is on the other.
Seriously, this is why the Border Operating Model doesn't work and why we're completely gumming up our border so that everything takes an eternity to get through. Pointless red tape to declare that no tariff is payable, that no vat is payable, that no standards are different because our standards are their standards are our fucking standards. What is the point in all this?
Before some arse says "but you voted for this", no I didn't. "This" is the Boris Brexit deal. Where after decades of cutting red tape cost and petty bureaucracy the Tory party decided to fuck all that off and impose as much as possible. Not because we actually have diverged and there is anything to check. But because we might want to do so at some point in the future.
Madness. And still prannocks say "but this is much better for the country than we had before". Is it fuck.
This is what you voted for. They literally said we'd leave the Single Market and Customs Union during the campaign.
And there isn't a single non-EU EEA nation in the Customs Union anyway.
So if you wanted to leave the EU but still have all EU benefits then I'm sorry but that's your own mistake.
And we actually have diverged. UK customs rules are not 100% the same as EU ones anymore. UK tariff schedules are not 100% the same as EU ones anymore. So the divergence is very real which is what we voted for.
So fill in the forms and quit moaning.
There was no need to leave the Single Market when we left the EU. That is a specific decision taken by he post-referendum Government. The EEA always was and still is an option - indeed the best option. It is only he idiocy of the Governments since 2016 that has prevented it being seriously considered.
If either May or Boris had gone for full EEA and full free movement then no way would the Tories have won a majority in 2019 and Brexit would not have got done as Farage's Brexit Party would have got about 15-20% of the vote. The Leave vote would thus still have been split rather than united as it was in December 2019 behind Boris' Brexit Deal
I know how much you love quoting polls as if they are the only thing in the world that matters so here is one that I quoted in a PB thread header the day after Leave won the referendum.
"A Yougov poll on 8th June showed that 42% of Leave supporters would prefer the EFTA/EEA route post-Brexit with 45% opposing. I would contend that this would indicate that overall there would be a clear majority of the country that would choose EFTA/EEA over complete separation from the Single Market."
The Government governs for the whole country not just those who won one particular side of a vote. It was incumbent upon them to seek a compromise, especially given that it was likely a majority of the electorate would have been happy with a soft Brexit. That we didn't do that was entirely due to a PM who did not understand Brexit and thought it was all about keeping the 'furrners' out followed by a PM who would have trouble finding the fluff in his belly button without a map and instructions.
So most Leave voters opposed EEA/EFTA, compared to the vast majority of Leave voters who voted for Boris' Deal in 2019.
Thanks for confirming I was absolutely right and Remain would have won in 2016 if the alternative was just Leave to EEA and keep free movement as most Leavers would not have bothered to turn out to vote Leave for just EEA
Nope you are not right and that is not what the figures showed. Given that almost half of Leave voters wanted to remain in the EEA and, given that we were leaving, a large majority of Remain voters would have wanted to minimise the damage as they saw it, then there would have been - and I contend still will be - a clear majority in favour of EFTA/EEA membership. I have the figures behind me. You have nothing but your rather singular views.
99% of Remain voters would still have voted Remain over Leave to EEA in the 2016 referendum. However plenty of working class Leave voters in the North and Midlands would have stayed home if Leave promised to keep free movement still and stay in the EEA.
So Remain would have won the referendum with about 60% of the vote and we would still be in the EU and no compromise would have been needed as there would have been no Brexit.
You won on the back of immigration control promises, EEA alone was never going to get you over 50% given we were outside the Eurozone in the EU anyway
We can still try for an EFTA deal with Norway, Switzerland, Iceland and Liechtenstein which preserves some elements of the single market and free movement. UKIP may protest a little but the referendum was about leaving the EU not ending all immigration and trade completely
A Starmer government may well do a version of that, especially if reliant on LD confidence and supply. Though given he needs the redwall seats I doubt he would agree to full free movement again. In a generation or two even the Tories might accept that to get back to power.
However the Tories now will not touch it with a bargepole given the threat of leakage to Farage and Tice. Plus Boris' current deal still has immigration just using a points system not free movement and trade deals with the EU and beyond anyway
Sorry I just realised I made a mistake. I was actually quoting you.
That full post should have been:
In June 2016 in response to my thread on joining the EEA HYUFD said:
"No, just realpolitik. We can still try for an EFTA deal with Norway, Switzerland, Iceland and Liechtenstein which preserves some elements of the single market and free movement. UKIP may protest a little but the referendum was about leaving the EU not ending all immigration and trade completely"
You were the one agreeing with me and advocating EFTA after the referendum.
What happened to you?
"Absolutely no one is talking about leaving the Single Market".
Daniel Hannan.
To be fair, if you watch that interview in full, it's clear that he was saying that nobody *in Brussels* was saying that you couldn't be in the single market while being outside the EU.
🔷👀 MPs and insiders involved in the “shadow whipping operation” to shore up support for Boris Johnson amid partygate have told PoliticsHome they are “more and more confident” serious threats to his leadership from within have dampened
I couldn't have put it better myself Richard. An EEA option would have been a typical British compromise and one that most, except the most ardent headbangers on both ends could have accepted. It is a shame that it was not properly offered. It would have been easy to have offered an additional confirmatory referendum that only offered EEA or hard Brexit, and this would not have in any way negated the first result.
It's interesting to hear Gavin Barwell on the consideration that Theresa May's team have to a new referendum. Although she apparently rejected it, supposedly on principle (but presumably also party management issues), it's easy to see how she could have gone for it if she'd not backed herself into a corner in the first 3 months of her leadership (when she really did not have to do so).
Interesting debate this morning, but I think @HYUFD and @Richard_Tyndall are both wrong.
I think after the vote there was a period of shock where all sorts of solutions were possible, including EFTA or “Norway for now”.
Polling did indeed suggest that - to the extent people understood the trade-offs - some middle option was preferable.
But May flunked it.
In the absence of any communicated strategy, “Brexit means Brexit”, both sides dug in to mutually incompatible “extremes”.*
In practice, this meant a hard (non-EEA) Brexit as May ended up feared the Spartans on the back bench more than anything.
By the time the opportunity did finally came around to go for an EEA type approach, Remainers in parliament failed to support it in favour of a second referendum.
I remain convinced that May could have sold the country on “Norway for Now” in mid to late 2016. I also think she screwed up in exercising A50, but that’s a separate argument.
*Personally I think the Remainer argument for a second referendum was totally valid.
People who think “Wokeness” is just a silly rehash of “political correctness gone mad” are sinister morons. Woke is infinitely more dangerous. It seeks to deconstruct western cultural pride and self confidence, until the Chinese just stomp all over us
Why do you hunt out all these slightly mad right-wing sites to source your "Wokestapo" stuff?
(By the way, 'Wokestapo" is particularly feeble for a literary giant like you. It doesn't exactly roll off the tongue, does it?)
Every quote they use, as they say, comes direct from Princeton Uni
Okay. So why don't you give us the links direct from Princeton Uni then, rather than mediated with commentary from a far-right website? Let's read the primary sources for ourselves.
Oh, and can you at least agree that your use of "Wokestapo" is poor, for several reasons, at least one of them rather obvious?
Wokestapo is indeed poor. I have eaten only six olives in three days
Should be slim enough to do some ballet dancing soon, then. But be careful.....
Wasting yet more time doing yet more fucking customs forms this time to export products which are zero tariff zero quota zero VAT from one place to another to declare that its the same fucking standards on one side of the border as it is on the other.
Seriously, this is why the Border Operating Model doesn't work and why we're completely gumming up our border so that everything takes an eternity to get through. Pointless red tape to declare that no tariff is payable, that no vat is payable, that no standards are different because our standards are their standards are our fucking standards. What is the point in all this?
Before some arse says "but you voted for this", no I didn't. "This" is the Boris Brexit deal. Where after decades of cutting red tape cost and petty bureaucracy the Tory party decided to fuck all that off and impose as much as possible. Not because we actually have diverged and there is anything to check. But because we might want to do so at some point in the future.
Madness. And still prannocks say "but this is much better for the country than we had before". Is it fuck.
This is what you voted for. They literally said we'd leave the Single Market and Customs Union during the campaign.
And there isn't a single non-EU EEA nation in the Customs Union anyway.
So if you wanted to leave the EU but still have all EU benefits then I'm sorry but that's your own mistake.
And we actually have diverged. UK customs rules are not 100% the same as EU ones anymore. UK tariff schedules are not 100% the same as EU ones anymore. So the divergence is very real which is what we voted for.
So fill in the forms and quit moaning.
There was no need to leave the Single Market when we left the EU. That is a specific decision taken by he post-referendum Government. The EEA always was and still is an option - indeed the best option. It is only he idiocy of the Governments since 2016 that has prevented it being seriously considered.
If either May or Boris had gone for full EEA and full free movement then no way would the Tories have won a majority in 2019 and Brexit would not have got done as Farage's Brexit Party would have got about 15-20% of the vote. The Leave vote would thus still have been split rather than united as it was in December 2019 behind Boris' Brexit Deal
I know how much you love quoting polls as if they are the only thing in the world that matters so here is one that I quoted in a PB thread header the day after Leave won the referendum.
"A Yougov poll on 8th June showed that 42% of Leave supporters would prefer the EFTA/EEA route post-Brexit with 45% opposing. I would contend that this would indicate that overall there would be a clear majority of the country that would choose EFTA/EEA over complete separation from the Single Market."
The Government governs for the whole country not just those who won one particular side of a vote. It was incumbent upon them to seek a compromise, especially given that it was likely a majority of the electorate would have been happy with a soft Brexit. That we didn't do that was entirely due to a PM who did not understand Brexit and thought it was all about keeping the 'furrners' out followed by a PM who would have trouble finding the fluff in his belly button without a map and instructions.
So most Leave voters opposed EEA/EFTA, compared to the vast majority of Leave voters who voted for Boris' Deal in 2019.
Thanks for confirming I was absolutely right and Remain would have won in 2016 if the alternative was just Leave to EEA and keep free movement as most Leavers would not have bothered to turn out to vote Leave for just EEA
Nope you are not right and that is not what the figures showed. Given that almost half of Leave voters wanted to remain in the EEA and, given that we were leaving, a large majority of Remain voters would have wanted to minimise the damage as they saw it, then there would have been - and I contend still will be - a clear majority in favour of EFTA/EEA membership. I have the figures behind me. You have nothing but your rather singular views.
99% of Remain voters would still have voted Remain over Leave to EEA in the 2016 referendum. However plenty of working class Leave voters in the North and Midlands would have stayed home if Leave promised to keep free movement still and stay in the EEA.
So Remain would have won the referendum with about 60% of the vote and we would still be in the EU and no compromise would have been needed as there would have been no Brexit.
You won on the back of immigration control promises, EEA alone was never going to get you over 50% given we were outside the Eurozone in the EU anyway
If Boris Brexit had been the promise, leave would have lost.
Boris got 43.6% in 2019 for his Brexit Deal. Add the Brexit Party's 3% and that is 46% for a hard Brexit outside the EEA and CU.
I doubt EEA plus free movement would even have got to 40% in a straight fight with Remain in 2016
No, he got 43.6% in a choice between him and the prospect of Corbyn as PM.
The vast majority of 2019 Tory voters either voted Leave or supported the Boris Deal like me.
Remainers who hated Corbyn or the few Leavers who opposed the Boris Deal as too hard and hated Corbyn voted LD. Leavers who thought the Boris Deal was too soft and wanted No Deal WTO terms Brexit voted Brexit Party or UKIP
r4 6 pm news leading on kabul. Lot of mileage left in that. Goldsmith been told to explain to Lords why he lied to them.
Just on that, the media have been showing lots of cuddly puppies all day as part of the evacuation and I would suggest not to underestimate just how popular their evacuation is with large parts of the population
Dog ownership has exploded during covid and I cannot recall a time when I have seen so many families out with their dogs on Llandudno and Colwyn Bays beaches and promenades
Might 'grown rapidly' be better than 'exploded'? Just that I had this vision of exploding dogs and their owners scattered along Llandudno promenade...
My use of language - dear me but I have had a chuckle
Wasting yet more time doing yet more fucking customs forms this time to export products which are zero tariff zero quota zero VAT from one place to another to declare that its the same fucking standards on one side of the border as it is on the other.
Seriously, this is why the Border Operating Model doesn't work and why we're completely gumming up our border so that everything takes an eternity to get through. Pointless red tape to declare that no tariff is payable, that no vat is payable, that no standards are different because our standards are their standards are our fucking standards. What is the point in all this?
Before some arse says "but you voted for this", no I didn't. "This" is the Boris Brexit deal. Where after decades of cutting red tape cost and petty bureaucracy the Tory party decided to fuck all that off and impose as much as possible. Not because we actually have diverged and there is anything to check. But because we might want to do so at some point in the future.
Madness. And still prannocks say "but this is much better for the country than we had before". Is it fuck.
This is what you voted for. They literally said we'd leave the Single Market and Customs Union during the campaign.
And there isn't a single non-EU EEA nation in the Customs Union anyway.
So if you wanted to leave the EU but still have all EU benefits then I'm sorry but that's your own mistake.
And we actually have diverged. UK customs rules are not 100% the same as EU ones anymore. UK tariff schedules are not 100% the same as EU ones anymore. So the divergence is very real which is what we voted for.
So fill in the forms and quit moaning.
There was no need to leave the Single Market when we left the EU. That is a specific decision taken by he post-referendum Government. The EEA always was and still is an option - indeed the best option. It is only he idiocy of the Governments since 2016 that has prevented it being seriously considered.
If either May or Boris had gone for full EEA and full free movement then no way would the Tories have won a majority in 2019 and Brexit would not have got done as Farage's Brexit Party would have got about 15-20% of the vote. The Leave vote would thus still have been split rather than united as it was in December 2019 behind Boris' Brexit Deal
I know how much you love quoting polls as if they are the only thing in the world that matters so here is one that I quoted in a PB thread header the day after Leave won the referendum.
"A Yougov poll on 8th June showed that 42% of Leave supporters would prefer the EFTA/EEA route post-Brexit with 45% opposing. I would contend that this would indicate that overall there would be a clear majority of the country that would choose EFTA/EEA over complete separation from the Single Market."
The Government governs for the whole country not just those who won one particular side of a vote. It was incumbent upon them to seek a compromise, especially given that it was likely a majority of the electorate would have been happy with a soft Brexit. That we didn't do that was entirely due to a PM who did not understand Brexit and thought it was all about keeping the 'furrners' out followed by a PM who would have trouble finding the fluff in his belly button without a map and instructions.
So most Leave voters opposed EEA/EFTA, compared to the vast majority of Leave voters who voted for Boris' Deal in 2019.
Thanks for confirming I was absolutely right and Remain would have won in 2016 if the alternative was just Leave to EEA and keep free movement as most Leavers would not have bothered to turn out to vote Leave for just EEA
Nope you are not right and that is not what the figures showed. Given that almost half of Leave voters wanted to remain in the EEA and, given that we were leaving, a large majority of Remain voters would have wanted to minimise the damage as they saw it, then there would have been - and I contend still will be - a clear majority in favour of EFTA/EEA membership. I have the figures behind me. You have nothing but your rather singular views.
99% of Remain voters would still have voted Remain over Leave to EEA in the 2016 referendum. However plenty of working class Leave voters in the North and Midlands would have stayed home if Leave promised to keep free movement still and stay in the EEA.
So Remain would have won the referendum with about 60% of the vote and we would still be in the EU and no compromise would have been needed as there would have been no Brexit.
You won on the back of immigration control promises, EEA alone was never going to get you over 50% given we were outside the Eurozone in the EU anyway
We can still try for an EFTA deal with Norway, Switzerland, Iceland and Liechtenstein which preserves some elements of the single market and free movement. UKIP may protest a little but the referendum was about leaving the EU not ending all immigration and trade completely
A Starmer government may well do a version of that, especially if reliant on LD confidence and supply. Though given he needs the redwall seats I doubt he would agree to full free movement again. In a generation or two even the Tories might accept that to get back to power.
However the Tories now will not touch it with a bargepole given the threat of leakage to Farage and Tice. Plus Boris' current deal still has immigration just using a points system not free movement and trade deals with the EU and beyond anyway
Sorry I just realised I made a mistake. I was actually quoting you.
That full post should have been:
In June 2016 in response to my thread on joining the EEA HYUFD said:
"No, just realpolitik. We can still try for an EFTA deal with Norway, Switzerland, Iceland and Liechtenstein which preserves some elements of the single market and free movement. UKIP may protest a little but the referendum was about leaving the EU not ending all immigration and trade completely"
You were the one agreeing with me and advocating EFTA after the referendum.
What happened to you?
"Absolutely no one is talking about leaving the Single Market".
Daniel Hannan.
Dan Hannan advocated staying in the EEA both before and after the referendum. Indeed he still does advocate it.
And it was Hannan himslf , ofcourse, who with Matthew Ellliott, actually created Vote Leave, at Lord Leach's house in 2012, then called Business for Britain, and with dosh from hedgefunder Crispin Odey. A strange basis run and win a campaign on, and none too democratic.
Turns out the $100 million skull that Damien Hirst and White Cube said they sold in 2007 still belongs to them... The work appears to have been inside a storage facility in London for 15 years: https://t.co/1f8ESRj3Fh
The art market is clearly 9-bob.
You might think that; I couldn't possibly comment.
Happy to play the charade.. (Then what were you doing making the observation in the first place! Might be the sort of thing I'd say though.)
r4 6 pm news leading on kabul. Lot of mileage left in that. Goldsmith been told to explain to Lords why he lied to them.
Just on that, the media have been showing lots of cuddly puppies all day as part of the evacuation and I would suggest not to underestimate just how popular their evacuation is with large parts of the population
Dog ownership has exploded during covid and I cannot recall a time when I have seen so many families out with their dogs on Llandudno and Colwyn Bays beaches and promenades
Dog prices have more than trebled, with even bog standard cockapoo puppies now selling for £2500-£3000.
But, as companies start to insist that their office workers start to return to the office, there are signs that the number of dogs being given in to rescue centres is on the rise.
Naah, cockafuckingpoos down to 1,200-1,700 this evening
I love stories of dog homes being presented with We found this stray and brought it to you, and they do a search and there's the actual same dog asking £2,000 3 days ago on local craigslist
🔷👀 MPs and insiders involved in the “shadow whipping operation” to shore up support for Boris Johnson amid partygate have told PoliticsHome they are “more and more confident” serious threats to his leadership from within have dampened
r4 6 pm news leading on kabul. Lot of mileage left in that. Goldsmith been told to explain to Lords why he lied to them.
Just on that, the media have been showing lots of cuddly puppies all day as part of the evacuation and I would suggest not to underestimate just how popular their evacuation is with large parts of the population
Dog ownership has exploded during covid and I cannot recall a time when I have seen so many families out with their dogs on Llandudno and Colwyn Bays beaches and promenades
I love dogs and am bemused at the idea of the evacuation being popular.
I don't think it matters about whether it is popular.
Those who dislike governments lying and being chaotic, already dislike this government. To those who don't mind that, this story does not change their vote. To people who like fluffy animals, a small number change their vote. To people with Afghan relatives or connections, a tiny number change their vote the other way.
None of this is relevant.
The only issue here is that our national leader was asked a straight question and, once again, chose to give a crooked answer.
Imagine if in 30's Germany , a football team called themselves (say) Berlin Israelites and had a picture of Moses as its badge. Hitler would not have been impressed no doubt. To those who bullied Exeter into changing their name , think about who else in history did not like cultural appropriation.
Exeter Chiefs haven't changed their name. They've kept the name but rebranded such that the picture is of a Dumnonni warrior (a Celtic tribe in SW England before and indeed after the Romans) rather than a Native American.
I'm a supporter of Exeter Chiefs, and it never worried me but I see it did some and the rebranding to feature a tribe that actually existed in the area is probably more appropriate - they'll flog a few shirts off it, anyway.
Someone asked if Exeter is technically far enough west to claim the Dumnonni as their own... well, Exeter's Roman name was Isca Dumnoniorum (basically river of the Dumnonni) so, although the written history is pretty sparse it's probably fair enough. The centre of it all is probably a bit further west around the tin mining areas of what is now the Devon/Cornwall border - that's certainly the economic centre as there was a thriving trade down to the Med as early as the Phoenician era. But Exeter is pretty comfortably part of "their" area.
Indeed, one minor drawback of the Dumnonni as an association is that Exeter Chiefs probably want to convey a warlike quality, and there's no real evidence of that being accurate. The suggestion is they were a pretty peaceful, rich bunch with a very well established trade links over a wide area. As a peninsula, they were quite well placed to avoid major conflict and it would've been bad for business. Probably needed to scrap with the odd raiding party but that's it. The Cornish like to pretend the Romans didn't venture much beyond Exeter as they feared the mighty Cornish, but that's a crock of sh1te - the truth is in many ways more flattering; they were canny enough not to cause any ructions, and earn a good living from tin. We could all learn from them... to be deliberately provocative, I suspect they'd have been Remainers.
🔷👀 MPs and insiders involved in the “shadow whipping operation” to shore up support for Boris Johnson amid partygate have told PoliticsHome they are “more and more confident” serious threats to his leadership from within have dampened
Imagine if in 30's Germany , a football team called themselves (say) Berlin Israelites and had a picture of Moses as its badge. Hitler would not have been impressed no doubt. To those who bullied Exeter into changing their name , think about who else in history did not like cultural appropriation.
Exeter Chiefs haven't changed their name. They've kept the name but rebranded such that the picture is of a Dumnonni warrior (a Celtic tribe in SW England before and indeed after the Romans) rather than a Native American.
I'm a supporter of Exeter Chiefs, and it never worried me but I see it did some and the rebranding to feature a tribe that actually existed in the area is probably more appropriate - they'll flog a few shirts off it, anyway. .
Honestly seems a smart piece of branding to me, even though I find complaints of cultural appropriation etc to be largely bollocks.
Wasting yet more time doing yet more fucking customs forms this time to export products which are zero tariff zero quota zero VAT from one place to another to declare that its the same fucking standards on one side of the border as it is on the other.
Seriously, this is why the Border Operating Model doesn't work and why we're completely gumming up our border so that everything takes an eternity to get through. Pointless red tape to declare that no tariff is payable, that no vat is payable, that no standards are different because our standards are their standards are our fucking standards. What is the point in all this?
Before some arse says "but you voted for this", no I didn't. "This" is the Boris Brexit deal. Where after decades of cutting red tape cost and petty bureaucracy the Tory party decided to fuck all that off and impose as much as possible. Not because we actually have diverged and there is anything to check. But because we might want to do so at some point in the future.
Madness. And still prannocks say "but this is much better for the country than we had before". Is it fuck.
This is what you voted for. They literally said we'd leave the Single Market and Customs Union during the campaign.
And there isn't a single non-EU EEA nation in the Customs Union anyway.
So if you wanted to leave the EU but still have all EU benefits then I'm sorry but that's your own mistake.
And we actually have diverged. UK customs rules are not 100% the same as EU ones anymore. UK tariff schedules are not 100% the same as EU ones anymore. So the divergence is very real which is what we voted for.
So fill in the forms and quit moaning.
There was no need to leave the Single Market when we left the EU. That is a specific decision taken by he post-referendum Government. The EEA always was and still is an option - indeed the best option. It is only he idiocy of the Governments since 2016 that has prevented it being seriously considered.
If either May or Boris had gone for full EEA and full free movement then no way would the Tories have won a majority in 2019 and Brexit would not have got done as Farage's Brexit Party would have got about 15-20% of the vote. The Leave vote would thus still have been split rather than united as it was in December 2019 behind Boris' Brexit Deal
I know how much you love quoting polls as if they are the only thing in the world that matters so here is one that I quoted in a PB thread header the day after Leave won the referendum.
"A Yougov poll on 8th June showed that 42% of Leave supporters would prefer the EFTA/EEA route post-Brexit with 45% opposing. I would contend that this would indicate that overall there would be a clear majority of the country that would choose EFTA/EEA over complete separation from the Single Market."
The Government governs for the whole country not just those who won one particular side of a vote. It was incumbent upon them to seek a compromise, especially given that it was likely a majority of the electorate would have been happy with a soft Brexit. That we didn't do that was entirely due to a PM who did not understand Brexit and thought it was all about keeping the 'furrners' out followed by a PM who would have trouble finding the fluff in his belly button without a map and instructions.
So most Leave voters opposed EEA/EFTA, compared to the vast majority of Leave voters who voted for Boris' Deal in 2019.
Thanks for confirming I was absolutely right and Remain would have won in 2016 if the alternative was just Leave to EEA and keep free movement as most Leavers would not have bothered to turn out to vote Leave for just EEA
Nope you are not right and that is not what the figures showed. Given that almost half of Leave voters wanted to remain in the EEA and, given that we were leaving, a large majority of Remain voters would have wanted to minimise the damage as they saw it, then there would have been - and I contend still will be - a clear majority in favour of EFTA/EEA membership. I have the figures behind me. You have nothing but your rather singular views.
99% of Remain voters would still have voted Remain over Leave to EEA in the 2016 referendum. However plenty of working class Leave voters in the North and Midlands would have stayed home if Leave promised to keep free movement still and stay in the EEA.
So Remain would have won the referendum with about 60% of the vote and we would still be in the EU and no compromise would have been needed as there would have been no Brexit.
You won on the back of immigration control promises, EEA alone was never going to get you over 50% given we were outside the Eurozone in the EU anyway
We can still try for an EFTA deal with Norway, Switzerland, Iceland and Liechtenstein which preserves some elements of the single market and free movement. UKIP may protest a little but the referendum was about leaving the EU not ending all immigration and trade completely
A Starmer government may well do a version of that, especially if reliant on LD confidence and supply. Though given he needs the redwall seats I doubt he would agree to full free movement again. In a generation or two even the Tories might accept that to get back to power.
However the Tories now will not touch it with a bargepole given the threat of leakage to Farage and Tice. Plus Boris' current deal still has immigration just using a points system not free movement and trade deals with the EU and beyond anyway
Sorry I just realised I made a mistake. I was actually quoting you.
That full post should have been:
In June 2016 in response to my thread on joining the EEA HYUFD said:
"No, just realpolitik. We can still try for an EFTA deal with Norway, Switzerland, Iceland and Liechtenstein which preserves some elements of the single market and free movement. UKIP may protest a little but the referendum was about leaving the EU not ending all immigration and trade completely"
You were the one agreeing with me and advocating EFTA after the referendum.
What happened to you?
I had just voted Remain and Cameron was still Tory leader and PM (May did not even become PM until July 2016).
Most Remainers at that time would have accepted EEA as the closest alternative to Remain on offer. However they still would have voted for Remain over EEA in the Referendum if that was the main basis of the Leave campaign.
However over 5 years later, I am quite happy with the Boris Deal which respects the Leave vote in full, including ending free movement and replacing it with a points system and allowing us to do our own trade deals while still having a trade deal with the EU. I would have opposed No Deal Brexit yes but I actually think the Boris Deal is in many respects better than EEA
You mean like the cracking steel tariff with the US that the EU doesn't now pay but we do. That sort of trade deal with the rest of the world. That is what we gave up free trade with Europe for?
r4 6 pm news leading on kabul. Lot of mileage left in that. Goldsmith been told to explain to Lords why he lied to them.
Just on that, the media have been showing lots of cuddly puppies all day as part of the evacuation and I would suggest not to underestimate just how popular their evacuation is with large parts of the population
Dog ownership has exploded during covid and I cannot recall a time when I have seen so many families out with their dogs on Llandudno and Colwyn Bays beaches and promenades
I love dogs and am bemused at the idea of the evacuation being popular.
I don't think it matters about whether it is popular.
Those who dislike governments lying and being chaotic, already dislike this government. To those who don't mind that, this story does not change their vote. To people who like fluffy animals, a small number change their vote. To people with Afghan relatives or connections, a tiny number change their vote the other way.
None of this is relevant.
The only issue here is that our national leader was asked a straight question and, once again, chose to give a crooked answer.
Anyone expecting anything different has not been paying attention.
Turns out the $100 million skull that Damien Hirst and White Cube said they sold in 2007 still belongs to them... The work appears to have been inside a storage facility in London for 15 years: https://t.co/1f8ESRj3Fh
Imo Damien Hirst is not an artist but a graphic designer who got lucky. In a parallel universe, his spot paintings are just wrapping paper.
Wasting yet more time doing yet more fucking customs forms this time to export products which are zero tariff zero quota zero VAT from one place to another to declare that its the same fucking standards on one side of the border as it is on the other.
Seriously, this is why the Border Operating Model doesn't work and why we're completely gumming up our border so that everything takes an eternity to get through. Pointless red tape to declare that no tariff is payable, that no vat is payable, that no standards are different because our standards are their standards are our fucking standards. What is the point in all this?
Before some arse says "but you voted for this", no I didn't. "This" is the Boris Brexit deal. Where after decades of cutting red tape cost and petty bureaucracy the Tory party decided to fuck all that off and impose as much as possible. Not because we actually have diverged and there is anything to check. But because we might want to do so at some point in the future.
Madness. And still prannocks say "but this is much better for the country than we had before". Is it fuck.
This is what you voted for. They literally said we'd leave the Single Market and Customs Union during the campaign.
And there isn't a single non-EU EEA nation in the Customs Union anyway.
So if you wanted to leave the EU but still have all EU benefits then I'm sorry but that's your own mistake.
And we actually have diverged. UK customs rules are not 100% the same as EU ones anymore. UK tariff schedules are not 100% the same as EU ones anymore. So the divergence is very real which is what we voted for.
So fill in the forms and quit moaning.
There was no need to leave the Single Market when we left the EU. That is a specific decision taken by he post-referendum Government. The EEA always was and still is an option - indeed the best option. It is only he idiocy of the Governments since 2016 that has prevented it being seriously considered.
If either May or Boris had gone for full EEA and full free movement then no way would the Tories have won a majority in 2019 and Brexit would not have got done as Farage's Brexit Party would have got about 15-20% of the vote. The Leave vote would thus still have been split rather than united as it was in December 2019 behind Boris' Brexit Deal
I know how much you love quoting polls as if they are the only thing in the world that matters so here is one that I quoted in a PB thread header the day after Leave won the referendum.
"A Yougov poll on 8th June showed that 42% of Leave supporters would prefer the EFTA/EEA route post-Brexit with 45% opposing. I would contend that this would indicate that overall there would be a clear majority of the country that would choose EFTA/EEA over complete separation from the Single Market."
The Government governs for the whole country not just those who won one particular side of a vote. It was incumbent upon them to seek a compromise, especially given that it was likely a majority of the electorate would have been happy with a soft Brexit. That we didn't do that was entirely due to a PM who did not understand Brexit and thought it was all about keeping the 'furrners' out followed by a PM who would have trouble finding the fluff in his belly button without a map and instructions.
So most Leave voters opposed EEA/EFTA, compared to the vast majority of Leave voters who voted for Boris' Deal in 2019.
Thanks for confirming I was absolutely right and Remain would have won in 2016 if the alternative was just Leave to EEA and keep free movement as most Leavers would not have bothered to turn out to vote Leave for just EEA
Nope you are not right and that is not what the figures showed. Given that almost half of Leave voters wanted to remain in the EEA and, given that we were leaving, a large majority of Remain voters would have wanted to minimise the damage as they saw it, then there would have been - and I contend still will be - a clear majority in favour of EFTA/EEA membership. I have the figures behind me. You have nothing but your rather singular views.
99% of Remain voters would still have voted Remain over Leave to EEA in the 2016 referendum. However plenty of working class Leave voters in the North and Midlands would have stayed home if Leave promised to keep free movement still and stay in the EEA.
So Remain would have won the referendum with about 60% of the vote and we would still be in the EU and no compromise would have been needed as there would have been no Brexit.
You won on the back of immigration control promises, EEA alone was never going to get you over 50% given we were outside the Eurozone in the EU anyway
We can still try for an EFTA deal with Norway, Switzerland, Iceland and Liechtenstein which preserves some elements of the single market and free movement. UKIP may protest a little but the referendum was about leaving the EU not ending all immigration and trade completely
A Starmer government may well do a version of that, especially if reliant on LD confidence and supply. Though given he needs the redwall seats I doubt he would agree to full free movement again. In a generation or two even the Tories might accept that to get back to power.
However the Tories now will not touch it with a bargepole given the threat of leakage to Farage and Tice. Plus Boris' current deal still has immigration just using a points system not free movement and trade deals with the EU and beyond anyway
Sorry I just realised I made a mistake. I was actually quoting you.
That full post should have been:
In June 2016 in response to my thread on joining the EEA HYUFD said:
"No, just realpolitik. We can still try for an EFTA deal with Norway, Switzerland, Iceland and Liechtenstein which preserves some elements of the single market and free movement. UKIP may protest a little but the referendum was about leaving the EU not ending all immigration and trade completely"
You were the one agreeing with me and advocating EFTA after the referendum.
What happened to you?
I had just voted Remain and Cameron was still Tory leader and PM (May did not even become PM until July 2016).
Most Remainers at that time would have accepted EEA as the closest alternative to Remain on offer. However they still would have voted for Remain over EEA in the Referendum if that was the main basis of the Leave campaign.
However over 5 years later, I am quite happy with the Boris Deal which respects the Leave vote in full, including ending free movement and replacing it with a points system and allowing us to do our own trade deals while still having a trade deal with the EU. I would have opposed No Deal Brexit yes but I actually think the Boris Deal is in many respects better than EEA
You mean like the cracking steel tariff with the US that the EU doesn't now pay but we do. That sort of trade deal with the rest of the world. That is what we gave up free trade with Europe for?
We did not have a trade deal with the US in the EU and we do not have one with the US now (nor does the EU). We do have trade deals with Australia and New Zealand we did not have in the EU.
Plus of course Trump as President imposed plenty of tariffs on EU imports. Biden has done a deal with the EU to remove them and I am sure will get round to removing ours in due course too
Simon Calder EXCLUSIVE Taxpayers spent £500,000 pounds so the foreign secretary didn't have to fly to, from and within Australia on Qantas . Instead, Liz Truss travelled 22,000 miles by private government Airbus A321, creating almost 500 tonnes of CO2 emissions. https://twitter.com/SimonCalder/status/1486663145137614856?s=20
Liz Truss is the Lib Dems secret weapon. She switched over to the Conservatives, and ever since then has worked untiringly to bring them into ever ,ore disrepute... Not easy, when B Johnson is doing it so well all by himself. Go, Liz, go...!!!!!! You can do it!
She didn't say anything about smelly sheep shaggers did she?
🔷👀 MPs and insiders involved in the “shadow whipping operation” to shore up support for Boris Johnson amid partygate have told PoliticsHome they are “more and more confident” serious threats to his leadership from within have dampened
Looks that way to me, The absence of Dom is the crucial factor.
Dom moves in a mysterious way. I wouldn't write him off just yet.
No, not quite, I agree.
I suspect he has some juicy titbits for use in the run up to the local elections. Johnson out by June is still my guess. I am putting it out to the universe.
No because by May, the Platinum Jubilee will have replaced Ukraine as the reason "now is not the time" to replace the Prime Minister.
Wasting yet more time doing yet more fucking customs forms this time to export products which are zero tariff zero quota zero VAT from one place to another to declare that its the same fucking standards on one side of the border as it is on the other.
Seriously, this is why the Border Operating Model doesn't work and why we're completely gumming up our border so that everything takes an eternity to get through. Pointless red tape to declare that no tariff is payable, that no vat is payable, that no standards are different because our standards are their standards are our fucking standards. What is the point in all this?
Before some arse says "but you voted for this", no I didn't. "This" is the Boris Brexit deal. Where after decades of cutting red tape cost and petty bureaucracy the Tory party decided to fuck all that off and impose as much as possible. Not because we actually have diverged and there is anything to check. But because we might want to do so at some point in the future.
Madness. And still prannocks say "but this is much better for the country than we had before". Is it fuck.
This is what you voted for. They literally said we'd leave the Single Market and Customs Union during the campaign.
And there isn't a single non-EU EEA nation in the Customs Union anyway.
So if you wanted to leave the EU but still have all EU benefits then I'm sorry but that's your own mistake.
And we actually have diverged. UK customs rules are not 100% the same as EU ones anymore. UK tariff schedules are not 100% the same as EU ones anymore. So the divergence is very real which is what we voted for.
So fill in the forms and quit moaning.
There was no need to leave the Single Market when we left the EU. That is a specific decision taken by he post-referendum Government. The EEA always was and still is an option - indeed the best option. It is only he idiocy of the Governments since 2016 that has prevented it being seriously considered.
If either May or Boris had gone for full EEA and full free movement then no way would the Tories have won a majority in 2019 and Brexit would not have got done as Farage's Brexit Party would have got about 15-20% of the vote. The Leave vote would thus still have been split rather than united as it was in December 2019 behind Boris' Brexit Deal
I know how much you love quoting polls as if they are the only thing in the world that matters so here is one that I quoted in a PB thread header the day after Leave won the referendum.
"A Yougov poll on 8th June showed that 42% of Leave supporters would prefer the EFTA/EEA route post-Brexit with 45% opposing. I would contend that this would indicate that overall there would be a clear majority of the country that would choose EFTA/EEA over complete separation from the Single Market."
The Government governs for the whole country not just those who won one particular side of a vote. It was incumbent upon them to seek a compromise, especially given that it was likely a majority of the electorate would have been happy with a soft Brexit. That we didn't do that was entirely due to a PM who did not understand Brexit and thought it was all about keeping the 'furrners' out followed by a PM who would have trouble finding the fluff in his belly button without a map and instructions.
So most Leave voters opposed EEA/EFTA, compared to the vast majority of Leave voters who voted for Boris' Deal in 2019.
Thanks for confirming I was absolutely right and Remain would have won in 2016 if the alternative was just Leave to EEA and keep free movement as most Leavers would not have bothered to turn out to vote Leave for just EEA
Nope you are not right and that is not what the figures showed. Given that almost half of Leave voters wanted to remain in the EEA and, given that we were leaving, a large majority of Remain voters would have wanted to minimise the damage as they saw it, then there would have been - and I contend still will be - a clear majority in favour of EFTA/EEA membership. I have the figures behind me. You have nothing but your rather singular views.
99% of Remain voters would still have voted Remain over Leave to EEA in the 2016 referendum. However plenty of working class Leave voters in the North and Midlands would have stayed home if Leave promised to keep free movement still and stay in the EEA.
So Remain would have won the referendum with about 60% of the vote and we would still be in the EU and no compromise would have been needed as there would have been no Brexit.
You won on the back of immigration control promises, EEA alone was never going to get you over 50% given we were outside the Eurozone in the EU anyway
If Boris Brexit had been the promise, leave would have lost.
Boris got 43.6% in 2019 for his Brexit Deal. Add the Brexit Party's 3% and that is 46% for a hard Brexit outside the EEA and CU.
I doubt EEA plus free movement would even have got to 40% in a straight fight with Remain in 2016
No, he got 43.6% in a choice between him and the prospect of Corbyn as PM.
The vast majority of 2019 Tory voters either voted Leave or supported the Boris Deal like me.
Remainers who hated Corbyn or the few Leavers who opposed the Boris Deal as too hard and hated Corbyn voted LD. Leavers who thought the Boris Deal was too soft and wanted No Deal WTO terms Brexit voted Brexit Party or UKIP
Yet another tedious off topic click, please can we remove this wretched off topic option.
Nobody uses it because a post is not exactly on the thread header anyway
As for joining the EEA I shall tell you what Michael Gove privately thinks about that.
Not going to happen, the Leavers (and The Notorious CRG in particular) would view it as a stepping stone to rejoining and oust any Tory PM to try it.
Labour will not offer to join the EEA as they know the Tories and Farage will spin it as trying to overturn democracy.
The other not so inconsiderable problem is getting our European friends to agree, after the whole Brexit farrago and exit deal they really don't want to have to go through that again.
The only terms they'd offer is something so humiliating and one sided that no UK Prime Minister could ever countenance it.
Agree that a Labour majority government wouldn't do it... but a Labour minority reliant on the Lib Dems for confidence and supply might. I imagine Davey is going to want to get some kind of major policy concession from Labour in return for the Lib Dem's support. The other alternative is voting reform (i.e. a referendum on PR), which I can't see the unions being too keen on Labour going ahead with.
As for joining the EEA I shall tell you what Michael Gove privately thinks about that.
Not going to happen, the Leavers (and The Notorious CRG in particular) would view it as a stepping stone to rejoining and oust any Tory PM to try it.
Labour will not offer to join the EEA as they know the Tories and Farage will spin it as trying to overturn democracy.
The other not so inconsiderable problem is getting our European friends to agree, after the whole Brexit farrago and exit deal they really don't want to have to go through that again.
The only terms they'd offer is something so humiliating and one sided that no UK Prime Minister could ever countenance it.
Agree that a Labour majority government wouldn't do it... but a Labour minority reliant on the Lib Dems for confidence and supply might. I imagine Davey is going to want to get some kind of major policy concession from Labour in return for the Lib Dem's support. The other alternative is voting reform (i.e. a referendum on PR), which I can't see the unions being too keen on Labour going ahead with.
I agree a CU with the EU and closer alignment to the EEA is likely if there is a hung parliament and Labour has over 300 seats and Starmer just needs LD confidence and supply. That is coincidentally what most current polls are suggesting
Wasting yet more time doing yet more fucking customs forms this time to export products which are zero tariff zero quota zero VAT from one place to another to declare that its the same fucking standards on one side of the border as it is on the other.
Seriously, this is why the Border Operating Model doesn't work and why we're completely gumming up our border so that everything takes an eternity to get through. Pointless red tape to declare that no tariff is payable, that no vat is payable, that no standards are different because our standards are their standards are our fucking standards. What is the point in all this?
Before some arse says "but you voted for this", no I didn't. "This" is the Boris Brexit deal. Where after decades of cutting red tape cost and petty bureaucracy the Tory party decided to fuck all that off and impose as much as possible. Not because we actually have diverged and there is anything to check. But because we might want to do so at some point in the future.
Madness. And still prannocks say "but this is much better for the country than we had before". Is it fuck.
This is what you voted for. They literally said we'd leave the Single Market and Customs Union during the campaign.
And there isn't a single non-EU EEA nation in the Customs Union anyway.
So if you wanted to leave the EU but still have all EU benefits then I'm sorry but that's your own mistake.
And we actually have diverged. UK customs rules are not 100% the same as EU ones anymore. UK tariff schedules are not 100% the same as EU ones anymore. So the divergence is very real which is what we voted for.
So fill in the forms and quit moaning.
There was no need to leave the Single Market when we left the EU. That is a specific decision taken by he post-referendum Government. The EEA always was and still is an option - indeed the best option. It is only he idiocy of the Governments since 2016 that has prevented it being seriously considered.
There was no legal need to do so, but there was no legal need to leave the EU post referendum either if you want to play that game.
During the referendum both parties (leavers and remainers) said that we'd leave the Single Market if we voted Leave. Boris literally said it in yes/no format during the referendum as did Gove as did Cummings' Vote Leave campaign.
So ethically we had to. Not legally. And we knew that pre referendum.
This was not my view, and while I am probably as biased as you (in opposite direction) I did follow it pretty closely. This issue was largely left ambiguous by Leave, and quite deliberately. If a hard Brexit had been offered it would have scared the horses. Many people thought we would end up with an EEA solution, and I suspect had the Leave campaign been more explicit they might have lost. . If Cameron hadn't been so arrogant, the sensible thing would have been to have given three options: Hard Brexit (like we ended up with) EEA or status quo/remain with a single transferable vote for those who wish to use it. There then should have been a confirmatory vote to confirm the final deal. It was absolutely dumb to have had a binary vote on something so complex and important. I suspect we would have ended up with EEA as a good compromise, which of course is not what the headbangers want, so they essentially conned the British electorate.
Too late now though, and in case you are wondering I am not in favour of rejoin.
Yes but Leave did not win because 52% wanted slightly more control of widget making from the EFTA court rather than ECJ and a few fishermen wanted to leave the CFP (which is the only difference between the EU and EEA for us given we were not in the Eurozone anyway).
No, Leave only got 52% in part because the Leave campaign promised to end EU free movement and replace it with a points system, thus getting redwall voters out to vote Leave.
If Leave had just campaigned on EEA I suspect Remain would have won as redwallers would not have bothered to vote.
r4 6 pm news leading on kabul. Lot of mileage left in that. Goldsmith been told to explain to Lords why he lied to them.
Just on that, the media have been showing lots of cuddly puppies all day as part of the evacuation and I would suggest not to underestimate just how popular their evacuation is with large parts of the population
Dog ownership has exploded during covid and I cannot recall a time when I have seen so many families out with their dogs on Llandudno and Colwyn Bays beaches and promenades
Dog prices have more than trebled, with even bog standard cockapoo puppies now selling for £2500-£3000.
But, as companies start to insist that their office workers start to return to the office, there are signs that the number of dogs being given in to rescue centres is on the rise.
Really and I hope the worse fears of dogs being abandoned do not materialise
Mind you my beloved wife would adopt them all if she could
Wasting yet more time doing yet more fucking customs forms this time to export products which are zero tariff zero quota zero VAT from one place to another to declare that its the same fucking standards on one side of the border as it is on the other.
Seriously, this is why the Border Operating Model doesn't work and why we're completely gumming up our border so that everything takes an eternity to get through. Pointless red tape to declare that no tariff is payable, that no vat is payable, that no standards are different because our standards are their standards are our fucking standards. What is the point in all this?
Before some arse says "but you voted for this", no I didn't. "This" is the Boris Brexit deal. Where after decades of cutting red tape cost and petty bureaucracy the Tory party decided to fuck all that off and impose as much as possible. Not because we actually have diverged and there is anything to check. But because we might want to do so at some point in the future.
Madness. And still prannocks say "but this is much better for the country than we had before". Is it fuck.
This is what you voted for. They literally said we'd leave the Single Market and Customs Union during the campaign.
And there isn't a single non-EU EEA nation in the Customs Union anyway.
So if you wanted to leave the EU but still have all EU benefits then I'm sorry but that's your own mistake.
And we actually have diverged. UK customs rules are not 100% the same as EU ones anymore. UK tariff schedules are not 100% the same as EU ones anymore. So the divergence is very real which is what we voted for.
So fill in the forms and quit moaning.
There was no need to leave the Single Market when we left the EU. That is a specific decision taken by he post-referendum Government. The EEA always was and still is an option - indeed the best option. It is only he idiocy of the Governments since 2016 that has prevented it being seriously considered.
If either May or Boris had gone for full EEA and full free movement then no way would the Tories have won a majority in 2019 and Brexit would not have got done as Farage's Brexit Party would have got about 15-20% of the vote. The Leave vote would thus still have been split rather than united as it was in December 2019 behind Boris' Brexit Deal
I know how much you love quoting polls as if they are the only thing in the world that matters so here is one that I quoted in a PB thread header the day after Leave won the referendum.
"A Yougov poll on 8th June showed that 42% of Leave supporters would prefer the EFTA/EEA route post-Brexit with 45% opposing. I would contend that this would indicate that overall there would be a clear majority of the country that would choose EFTA/EEA over complete separation from the Single Market."
The Government governs for the whole country not just those who won one particular side of a vote. It was incumbent upon them to seek a compromise, especially given that it was likely a majority of the electorate would have been happy with a soft Brexit. That we didn't do that was entirely due to a PM who did not understand Brexit and thought it was all about keeping the 'furrners' out followed by a PM who would have trouble finding the fluff in his belly button without a map and instructions.
So most Leave voters opposed EEA/EFTA, compared to the vast majority of Leave voters who voted for Boris' Deal in 2019.
Thanks for confirming I was absolutely right and Remain would have won in 2016 if the alternative was just Leave to EEA and keep free movement as most Leavers would not have bothered to turn out to vote Leave for just EEA
Nope you are not right and that is not what the figures showed. Given that almost half of Leave voters wanted to remain in the EEA and, given that we were leaving, a large majority of Remain voters would have wanted to minimise the damage as they saw it, then there would have been - and I contend still will be - a clear majority in favour of EFTA/EEA membership. I have the figures behind me. You have nothing but your rather singular views.
99% of Remain voters would still have voted Remain over Leave to EEA in the 2016 referendum. However plenty of working class Leave voters in the North and Midlands would have stayed home if Leave promised to keep free movement still and stay in the EEA.
So Remain would have won the referendum with about 60% of the vote and we would still be in the EU and no compromise would have been needed as there would have been no Brexit.
You won on the back of immigration control promises, EEA alone was never going to get you over 50% given we were outside the Eurozone in the EU anyway
If Boris Brexit had been the promise, leave would have lost.
Boris got 43.6% in 2019 for his Brexit Deal. Add the Brexit Party's 3% and that is 46% for a hard Brexit outside the EEA and CU.
I doubt EEA plus free movement would even have got to 40% in a straight fight with Remain in 2016
No, he got 43.6% in a choice between him and the prospect of Corbyn as PM.
The vast majority of 2019 Tory voters either voted Leave or supported the Boris Deal like me.
Remainers who hated Corbyn or the few Leavers who opposed the Boris Deal as too hard and hated Corbyn voted LD. Leavers who thought the Boris Deal was too soft and wanted No Deal WTO terms Brexit voted Brexit Party or UKIP
Yet another tedious off topic click, please can we remove this wretched off topic option.
Nobody uses it because a post is not exactly on the thread header anyway
I read this as tedious off topic dick, and a thoroughly well merited riposte to the poster you were replying to...
People who think “Wokeness” is just a silly rehash of “political correctness gone mad” are sinister morons. Woke is infinitely more dangerous. It seeks to deconstruct western cultural pride and self confidence, until the Chinese just stomp all over us
Why do you hunt out all these slightly mad right-wing sites to source your "Wokestapo" stuff?
(By the way, 'Wokestapo" is particularly feeble for a literary giant like you. It doesn't exactly roll off the tongue, does it?)
Leon is the new Wokefinder General.
Princeton University Ballet is an amateur company, started as recently as 2008. Their productions are hardly revolutionary, and they are not exactly at the cultural core of the Ballet world.
Fox jr2 is a budding actor, and his flatmate is a former professional dancer. Unfortunately his dance career collapsed with covid, but he was becoming quite disenchanted with the world of professional dance.
His dance director would line up the dancers at the beginning of the week and tear a strip off the dancers he didn't like for various aspects of their appearance, particularly their weight and physique. Bear in mind that these were professional dancers, not random kids from the street. By any normal yardstick they were a very buff and slim group of youngsters. They would also be drilled despite injuries, sometimes to the point of permanent damage. The high rate of anorexia nervosa in professional ballet dancers suggests this is not unusual.
The world of performing arts gives the impression of being luvvies, but the reality is often callous and brutal. It is a world that could do with some serious cultural critique.
r4 6 pm news leading on kabul. Lot of mileage left in that. Goldsmith been told to explain to Lords why he lied to them.
Just on that, the media have been showing lots of cuddly puppies all day as part of the evacuation and I would suggest not to underestimate just how popular their evacuation is with large parts of the population
Dog ownership has exploded during covid and I cannot recall a time when I have seen so many families out with their dogs on Llandudno and Colwyn Bays beaches and promenades
Dog prices have more than trebled, with even bog standard cockapoo puppies now selling for £2500-£3000.
But, as companies start to insist that their office workers start to return to the office, there are signs that the number of dogs being given in to rescue centres is on the rise.
Really and I hope the worse fears of dogs being abandoned do not materialise
Mind you my beloved wife would adopt them all if she could
Wasting yet more time doing yet more fucking customs forms this time to export products which are zero tariff zero quota zero VAT from one place to another to declare that its the same fucking standards on one side of the border as it is on the other.
Seriously, this is why the Border Operating Model doesn't work and why we're completely gumming up our border so that everything takes an eternity to get through. Pointless red tape to declare that no tariff is payable, that no vat is payable, that no standards are different because our standards are their standards are our fucking standards. What is the point in all this?
Before some arse says "but you voted for this", no I didn't. "This" is the Boris Brexit deal. Where after decades of cutting red tape cost and petty bureaucracy the Tory party decided to fuck all that off and impose as much as possible. Not because we actually have diverged and there is anything to check. But because we might want to do so at some point in the future.
Madness. And still prannocks say "but this is much better for the country than we had before". Is it fuck.
This is what you voted for. They literally said we'd leave the Single Market and Customs Union during the campaign.
And there isn't a single non-EU EEA nation in the Customs Union anyway.
So if you wanted to leave the EU but still have all EU benefits then I'm sorry but that's your own mistake.
And we actually have diverged. UK customs rules are not 100% the same as EU ones anymore. UK tariff schedules are not 100% the same as EU ones anymore. So the divergence is very real which is what we voted for.
So fill in the forms and quit moaning.
There was no need to leave the Single Market when we left the EU. That is a specific decision taken by he post-referendum Government. The EEA always was and still is an option - indeed the best option. It is only he idiocy of the Governments since 2016 that has prevented it being seriously considered.
If either May or Boris had gone for full EEA and full free movement then no way would the Tories have won a majority in 2019 and Brexit would not have got done as Farage's Brexit Party would have got about 15-20% of the vote. The Leave vote would thus still have been split rather than united as it was in December 2019 behind Boris' Brexit Deal
I know how much you love quoting polls as if they are the only thing in the world that matters so here is one that I quoted in a PB thread header the day after Leave won the referendum.
"A Yougov poll on 8th June showed that 42% of Leave supporters would prefer the EFTA/EEA route post-Brexit with 45% opposing. I would contend that this would indicate that overall there would be a clear majority of the country that would choose EFTA/EEA over complete separation from the Single Market."
The Government governs for the whole country not just those who won one particular side of a vote. It was incumbent upon them to seek a compromise, especially given that it was likely a majority of the electorate would have been happy with a soft Brexit. That we didn't do that was entirely due to a PM who did not understand Brexit and thought it was all about keeping the 'furrners' out followed by a PM who would have trouble finding the fluff in his belly button without a map and instructions.
So most Leave voters opposed EEA/EFTA, compared to the vast majority of Leave voters who voted for Boris' Deal in 2019.
Thanks for confirming I was absolutely right and Remain would have won in 2016 if the alternative was just Leave to EEA and keep free movement as most Leavers would not have bothered to turn out to vote Leave for just EEA
Nope you are not right and that is not what the figures showed. Given that almost half of Leave voters wanted to remain in the EEA and, given that we were leaving, a large majority of Remain voters would have wanted to minimise the damage as they saw it, then there would have been - and I contend still will be - a clear majority in favour of EFTA/EEA membership. I have the figures behind me. You have nothing but your rather singular views.
99% of Remain voters would still have voted Remain over Leave to EEA in the 2016 referendum. However plenty of working class Leave voters in the North and Midlands would have stayed home if Leave promised to keep free movement still and stay in the EEA.
So Remain would have won the referendum with about 60% of the vote and we would still be in the EU and no compromise would have been needed as there would have been no Brexit.
You won on the back of immigration control promises, EEA alone was never going to get you over 50% given we were outside the Eurozone in the EU anyway
If Boris Brexit had been the promise, leave would have lost.
Boris got 43.6% in 2019 for his Brexit Deal. Add the Brexit Party's 3% and that is 46% for a hard Brexit outside the EEA and CU.
I doubt EEA plus free movement would even have got to 40% in a straight fight with Remain in 2016
No, he got 43.6% in a choice between him and the prospect of Corbyn as PM.
The vast majority of 2019 Tory voters either voted Leave or supported the Boris Deal like me.
Remainers who hated Corbyn or the few Leavers who opposed the Boris Deal as too hard and hated Corbyn voted LD. Leavers who thought the Boris Deal was too soft and wanted No Deal WTO terms Brexit voted Brexit Party or UKIP
Yet another tedious off topic click, please can we remove this wretched off topic option.
Nobody uses it because a post is not exactly on the thread header anyway
I have arthritic fingers and do catch the off topic button occasionally but quickly correct it
However, it someone is targeting you then it is wrong and it needs to stop now
As for joining the EEA I shall tell you what Michael Gove privately thinks about that.
Not going to happen, the Leavers (and The Notorious CRG in particular) would view it as a stepping stone to rejoining and oust any Tory PM to try it.
Labour will not offer to join the EEA as they know the Tories and Farage will spin it as trying to overturn democracy.
The other not so inconsiderable problem is getting our European friends to agree, after the whole Brexit farrago and exit deal they really don't want to have to go through that again.
The only terms they'd offer is something so humiliating and one sided that no UK Prime Minister could ever countenance it.
Agree that a Labour majority government wouldn't do it... but a Labour minority reliant on the Lib Dems for confidence and supply might. I imagine Davey is going to want to get some kind of major policy concession from Labour in return for the Lib Dem's support. The other alternative is voting reform (i.e. a referendum on PR), which I can't see the unions being too keen on Labour going ahead with.
Given the choice of voting reform or EEA - Labour will go for voting reform.
Remember that Labour was going to do it back in 1997 until they won a thumping majority - this time round they know they need to do something to fix the bias against them created by the new boundaries and Scotland.
I suspect a Labour Minority Government would love a deal with the Lib Dems attached to PR - to the extent they would implement it without a referendum.
r4 6 pm news leading on kabul. Lot of mileage left in that. Goldsmith been told to explain to Lords why he lied to them.
Just on that, the media have been showing lots of cuddly puppies all day as part of the evacuation and I would suggest not to underestimate just how popular their evacuation is with large parts of the population
Dog ownership has exploded during covid and I cannot recall a time when I have seen so many families out with their dogs on Llandudno and Colwyn Bays beaches and promenades
Dog prices have more than trebled, with even bog standard cockapoo puppies now selling for £2500-£3000.
But, as companies start to insist that their office workers start to return to the office, there are signs that the number of dogs being given in to rescue centres is on the rise.
Really and I hope the worse fears of dogs being abandoned do not materialise
Mind you my beloved wife would adopt them all if she could
Wasting yet more time doing yet more fucking customs forms this time to export products which are zero tariff zero quota zero VAT from one place to another to declare that its the same fucking standards on one side of the border as it is on the other.
Seriously, this is why the Border Operating Model doesn't work and why we're completely gumming up our border so that everything takes an eternity to get through. Pointless red tape to declare that no tariff is payable, that no vat is payable, that no standards are different because our standards are their standards are our fucking standards. What is the point in all this?
Before some arse says "but you voted for this", no I didn't. "This" is the Boris Brexit deal. Where after decades of cutting red tape cost and petty bureaucracy the Tory party decided to fuck all that off and impose as much as possible. Not because we actually have diverged and there is anything to check. But because we might want to do so at some point in the future.
Madness. And still prannocks say "but this is much better for the country than we had before". Is it fuck.
This is what you voted for. They literally said we'd leave the Single Market and Customs Union during the campaign.
And there isn't a single non-EU EEA nation in the Customs Union anyway.
So if you wanted to leave the EU but still have all EU benefits then I'm sorry but that's your own mistake.
And we actually have diverged. UK customs rules are not 100% the same as EU ones anymore. UK tariff schedules are not 100% the same as EU ones anymore. So the divergence is very real which is what we voted for.
So fill in the forms and quit moaning.
There was no need to leave the Single Market when we left the EU. That is a specific decision taken by he post-referendum Government. The EEA always was and still is an option - indeed the best option. It is only he idiocy of the Governments since 2016 that has prevented it being seriously considered.
If either May or Boris had gone for full EEA and full free movement then no way would the Tories have won a majority in 2019 and Brexit would not have got done as Farage's Brexit Party would have got about 15-20% of the vote. The Leave vote would thus still have been split rather than united as it was in December 2019 behind Boris' Brexit Deal
I know how much you love quoting polls as if they are the only thing in the world that matters so here is one that I quoted in a PB thread header the day after Leave won the referendum.
"A Yougov poll on 8th June showed that 42% of Leave supporters would prefer the EFTA/EEA route post-Brexit with 45% opposing. I would contend that this would indicate that overall there would be a clear majority of the country that would choose EFTA/EEA over complete separation from the Single Market."
The Government governs for the whole country not just those who won one particular side of a vote. It was incumbent upon them to seek a compromise, especially given that it was likely a majority of the electorate would have been happy with a soft Brexit. That we didn't do that was entirely due to a PM who did not understand Brexit and thought it was all about keeping the 'furrners' out followed by a PM who would have trouble finding the fluff in his belly button without a map and instructions.
So most Leave voters opposed EEA/EFTA, compared to the vast majority of Leave voters who voted for Boris' Deal in 2019.
Thanks for confirming I was absolutely right and Remain would have won in 2016 if the alternative was just Leave to EEA and keep free movement as most Leavers would not have bothered to turn out to vote Leave for just EEA
Nope you are not right and that is not what the figures showed. Given that almost half of Leave voters wanted to remain in the EEA and, given that we were leaving, a large majority of Remain voters would have wanted to minimise the damage as they saw it, then there would have been - and I contend still will be - a clear majority in favour of EFTA/EEA membership. I have the figures behind me. You have nothing but your rather singular views.
99% of Remain voters would still have voted Remain over Leave to EEA in the 2016 referendum. However plenty of working class Leave voters in the North and Midlands would have stayed home if Leave promised to keep free movement still and stay in the EEA.
So Remain would have won the referendum with about 60% of the vote and we would still be in the EU and no compromise would have been needed as there would have been no Brexit.
You won on the back of immigration control promises, EEA alone was never going to get you over 50% given we were outside the Eurozone in the EU anyway
We can still try for an EFTA deal with Norway, Switzerland, Iceland and Liechtenstein which preserves some elements of the single market and free movement. UKIP may protest a little but the referendum was about leaving the EU not ending all immigration and trade completely
A Starmer government may well do a version of that, especially if reliant on LD confidence and supply. Though given he needs the redwall seats I doubt he would agree to full free movement again. In a generation or two even the Tories might accept that to get back to power.
However the Tories now will not touch it with a bargepole given the threat of leakage to Farage and Tice. Plus Boris' current deal still has immigration just using a points system not free movement and trade deals with the EU and beyond anyway
Sorry I just realised I made a mistake. I was actually quoting you.
That full post should have been:
In June 2016 in response to my thread on joining the EEA HYUFD said:
"No, just realpolitik. We can still try for an EFTA deal with Norway, Switzerland, Iceland and Liechtenstein which preserves some elements of the single market and free movement. UKIP may protest a little but the referendum was about leaving the EU not ending all immigration and trade completely"
You were the one agreeing with me and advocating EFTA after the referendum.
What happened to you?
I had just voted Remain and Cameron was still Tory leader and PM (May did not even become PM until July 2016).
Most Remainers at that time would have accepted EEA as the closest alternative to Remain on offer. However they still would have voted for Remain over EEA in the Referendum if that was the main basis of the Leave campaign.
However over 5 years later, I am quite happy with the Boris Deal which respects the Leave vote in full, including ending free movement and replacing it with a points system and allowing us to do our own trade deals while still having a trade deal with the EU. I would have opposed No Deal Brexit yes but I actually think the Boris Deal is in many respects better than EEA
You mean like the cracking steel tariff with the US that the EU doesn't now pay but we do. That sort of trade deal with the rest of the world. That is what we gave up free trade with Europe for?
We did not have a trade deal with the US in the EU and we do not have one with the US now (nor does the EU). We do have trade deals with Australia and New Zealand we did not have in the EU.
Plus of course Trump as President imposed plenty of tariffs on EU imports. Biden has done a deal with the EU to remove them and I am sure will get round to removing ours in due course too
Doesn't change the fact that we have a 25% tarrif that we wouldn't have otherwise does it?
You tried to justify the benefits of the Australian and NZ deal before. I recall you were reduced to trying to sell them carrots.
Do you not wonder why the EU was ahead us in the queue? Do you not realize the same will apply to all serious deals. Size matters.
As for joining the EEA I shall tell you what Michael Gove privately thinks about that.
Not going to happen, the Leavers (and The Notorious CRG in particular) would view it as a stepping stone to rejoining and oust any Tory PM to try it.
Labour will not offer to join the EEA as they know the Tories and Farage will spin it as trying to overturn democracy.
The other not so inconsiderable problem is getting our European friends to agree, after the whole Brexit farrago and exit deal they really don't want to have to go through that again.
The only terms they'd offer is something so humiliating and one sided that no UK Prime Minister could ever countenance it.
Agree that a Labour majority government wouldn't do it... but a Labour minority reliant on the Lib Dems for confidence and supply might. I imagine Davey is going to want to get some kind of major policy concession from Labour in return for the Lib Dem's support. The other alternative is voting reform (i.e. a referendum on PR), which I can't see the unions being too keen on Labour going ahead with.
I agree a CU with the EU and closer alignment to the EEA is likely if there is a hung parliament and Labour has over 300 seats and Starmer just needs LD confidence and supply. That is coincidentally what most current polls are suggesting
This is why I think a strong Labour minority gvt with 300 seats is probably the best outcome of the next election, better than Labour getting a small majority and Starmer might even be able to play not having a majority to his advantage like Cameron and Johnson did. Labour will also be prevented from going back to the worst elements of New Labour between 2005-10.
I'm not sure how much leverage the lib dems will have on PR but I'm confident about an sustainable compromise on closer alignment to the EU.
For the West to lose one F35, off the side of a carrier, is unlucky.
To lose TWO F35s, off the side of two carriers, in as many months…
To add, a quick bit of digging on the American one, suggests a failure of the arrestor cable landing system on the carrier itself. With the British one rumoured to have been an engine ‘blank’ not removed before flight, I think that counts as two serviceable aircraft sent for a drink. At $250m a piece.
A day of divergent polls and needless to say everyone will cling to their favourite like a drowning man to a lifebelt.
I will simply note all three have the LDs in double figures and 13% with IPSOS-MORI is an encouraging sign.
Indeed, that would be a 7.5% UNS swing from Conservative to Liberal Democrat which would be nice (as someone once said).
On other things - in my local Tesco's this evening, the "mandatory" wearing of masks not being enforced so I do wonder what's the point. Generally, mask wearing reduced but still present. Once again the Evening Standard hails the "big return" but again the facts don't support that. Passenger transport numbers for rail and London Underground haven't moved much at just over and just under half pre-Covid respectively.
For all the propaganda, the "new normal" is here and the operational economic models for transport providers need to reflect that and I suspect no amount of free coffee/tea is going to get commuters back because the problem has never been the office desk but the commute itself. All the vox pops are about the journey not the destination and the current reduction in services is another disincentive to march back to the battery farm.
The Kent by-elections are counting tomorrow - to be honest, the Conservatives enjoy huge majorities in all the seats and even in these febrile times it should be three easy holds and even though there are LD candidates for the first time in a while it will look bad if any of these seats are lost by the blues.
r4 6 pm news leading on kabul. Lot of mileage left in that. Goldsmith been told to explain to Lords why he lied to them.
Just on that, the media have been showing lots of cuddly puppies all day as part of the evacuation and I would suggest not to underestimate just how popular their evacuation is with large parts of the population
Dog ownership has exploded during covid and I cannot recall a time when I have seen so many families out with their dogs on Llandudno and Colwyn Bays beaches and promenades
Dog prices have more than trebled, with even bog standard cockapoo puppies now selling for £2500-£3000.
But, as companies start to insist that their office workers start to return to the office, there are signs that the number of dogs being given in to rescue centres is on the rise.
Really and I hope the worse fears of dogs being abandoned do not materialise
Mind you my beloved wife would adopt them all if she could
If I may can I issue a word of warning to all those who seem to accept Boris is home and dry for now
Sue Gray's report could be so bad, Boris either resigns or his mps exercise a 'coup d' etat' as early as next week
This is why Boris at the dispatch box, probably on Monday, with Sue Gray's report in his hand is such high drama
There's been an awful lot of time for careful 'management' of the report already, though, and the government seems to have been completely able to ignore her reported request for it to be published in "hours". What's to say other more contentious parts might not have been held back for the police enquiry, too, even if the police haven't exactly asked for that ?
r4 6 pm news leading on kabul. Lot of mileage left in that. Goldsmith been told to explain to Lords why he lied to them.
Just on that, the media have been showing lots of cuddly puppies all day as part of the evacuation and I would suggest not to underestimate just how popular their evacuation is with large parts of the population
Dog ownership has exploded during covid and I cannot recall a time when I have seen so many families out with their dogs on Llandudno and Colwyn Bays beaches and promenades
Dog prices have more than trebled, with even bog standard cockapoo puppies now selling for £2500-£3000.
But, as companies start to insist that their office workers start to return to the office, there are signs that the number of dogs being given in to rescue centres is on the rise.
Really and I hope the worse fears of dogs being abandoned do not materialise
Mind you my beloved wife would adopt them all if she could
..
Interesting dog. Part Bedlington terrier? Though the ears and tail suggest a mixed breed. Quite distinctive.
People who think “Wokeness” is just a silly rehash of “political correctness gone mad” are sinister morons. Woke is infinitely more dangerous. It seeks to deconstruct western cultural pride and self confidence, until the Chinese just stomp all over us
Why do you hunt out all these slightly mad right-wing sites to source your "Wokestapo" stuff?
(By the way, 'Wokestapo" is particularly feeble for a literary giant like you. It doesn't exactly roll off the tongue, does it?)
Leon is the new Wokefinder General.
Princeton University Ballet is an amateur company, started as recently as 2008. Their productions are hardly revolutionary, and they are not exactly at the cultural core of the Ballet world.
Fox jr2 is a budding actor, and his flatmate is a former professional dancer. Unfortunately his dance career collapsed with covid, but he was becoming quite disenchanted with the world of professional dance.
His dance director would line up the dancers at the beginning of the week and tear a strip off the dancers he didn't like for various aspects of their appearance, particularly their weight and physique. Bear in mind that these were professional dancers, not random kids from the street. By any normal yardstick they were a very buff and slim group of youngsters. They would also be drilled despite injuries, sometimes to the point of permanent damage. The high rate of anorexia nervosa in professional ballet dancers suggests this is not unusual.
The world of performing arts gives the impression of being luvvies, but the reality is often callous and brutal. It is a world that could do with some serious cultural critique.
I know a few professional dancers and choreographers and that's the way it has to be if they want to make a living out of it.The discipline is awe inspiring. If they don't want to keep to the rigours of the profession there are amateur companies they can join.
It isn't different from football. Guardiola has famously kicked players out after returning from their summer break not in shape
In more 'woke doesn't exist' news, Exeter Chiefs are to rebrand after being accused of cultural appropriation (by, if I remember the original story correctly, an utter pain in the arse). They will retain the name but base it on Celtic imagery instead. Although I do sort of get it I'm slightly puzzled as to why cultural appropriation of Native Americans is wrong but of Celts is ok. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union/2022/01/27/exeter-chiefs-replace-native-american-themed-imagery-end-season/
I don't want to get too dragged into this discussion, but most people in the UK are descended from the pre-Saxon native peoples, including Celts, the Anglo-Saxon incomers, AND the Norman incomers post-Hastings. Probably few people here have significant Native American heritage. Moreover, Celtic culture is basically extinct. All that's left are some pockets of Brythonic and Goidelic language, which are grand-daughter languages of any possible proto-Celtic language. Celtic as an identity is distant and loosely held, in much the same way as, say, Goths. There comes a point when there's nobody really left to feel offended. When was the last time you met someone who described their identity as "Celt"?
A lot of what passes for Celtic culture is an invention of the Romantic period, as with much of the ancient origins of the various national identities of Europe. It serves fairly directly as the bedrock for non-English identity in the islands of Britain and Ireland.
Is Exeter far enough West to claim a lineage from the "Celts" in the South West of England? I don't know.
On the one hand it is all a nonsense, but on the other hand it touches at a deep level on people's sense of identity. It's easy to feel a bit annoyed that they're exploiting other people's identity to make money. That doesn't sit comfortably with me.
Exeter has a long and colourful history as a Roman garrison, home to early English poetry, a loyal Royalist city, and more. Surely the rugby club can create a club identity based on some of the real local history instead of lazily appropriating somebody else's?
I consider myself fairly woke on race (if not quite other stuff) as my daughter is mixed race, my wife from a indian muslim heritage and dont believe in borders really . Honestly though I really dont get the argument about cultural appropriation especially when not done to ridicule etc. If the world never did any cultural appropriation then it would be a very insular,ignorant of other cultures and divided world . I am not a huge fan of sports teams being given hyped up names and prefer a straight Exeter/colchester./liverpool FC etc but if they are to have hyped up nicknames I dont think Exeter have anything to feel sorry for with their Chiefs nickname. After all isn't copying a form of flattery ?
The irony is that the whole Chiefs/Tigers/Whatever thing is itself cultural appropriation of American sports because some marketing guru convinced the ruling bodies that *that* was what fans cared about.
I kind of agree although, in fact, they were called Exeter Chiefs in the 1930s. They'd dropped it in the interim so you're right that they were part of that trend, but it wasn't actually an invented history in that sense.
People who think “Wokeness” is just a silly rehash of “political correctness gone mad” are sinister morons. Woke is infinitely more dangerous. It seeks to deconstruct western cultural pride and self confidence, until the Chinese just stomp all over us
Why do you hunt out all these slightly mad right-wing sites to source your "Wokestapo" stuff?
(By the way, 'Wokestapo" is particularly feeble for a literary giant like you. It doesn't exactly roll off the tongue, does it?)
Leon is the new Wokefinder General.
Princeton University Ballet is an amateur company, started as recently as 2008. Their productions are hardly revolutionary, and they are not exactly at the cultural core of the Ballet world.
Fox jr2 is a budding actor, and his flatmate is a former professional dancer. Unfortunately his dance career collapsed with covid, but he was becoming quite disenchanted with the world of professional dance.
His dance director would line up the dancers at the beginning of the week and tear a strip off the dancers he didn't like for various aspects of their appearance, particularly their weight and physique. Bear in mind that these were professional dancers, not random kids from the street. By any normal yardstick they were a very buff and slim group of youngsters. They would also be drilled despite injuries, sometimes to the point of permanent damage. The high rate of anorexia nervosa in professional ballet dancers suggests this is not unusual.
The world of performing arts gives the impression of being luvvies, but the reality is often callous and brutal. It is a world that could do with some serious cultural critique.
Also Princeton Student Ballet has no power over us, or anyone much. Their nonsense can and probably is met with indifference, if not snorts of derision. On topic, I am much more concerned about a corrupt, dishonest and incompetent prime minister continuing to undermine the body politic of this country. That genuinely is dangerous, but @Leon doesn't seem bothered about it.
r4 6 pm news leading on kabul. Lot of mileage left in that. Goldsmith been told to explain to Lords why he lied to them.
Just on that, the media have been showing lots of cuddly puppies all day as part of the evacuation and I would suggest not to underestimate just how popular their evacuation is with large parts of the population
Dog ownership has exploded during covid and I cannot recall a time when I have seen so many families out with their dogs on Llandudno and Colwyn Bays beaches and promenades
Dog prices have more than trebled, with even bog standard cockapoo puppies now selling for £2500-£3000.
But, as companies start to insist that their office workers start to return to the office, there are signs that the number of dogs being given in to rescue centres is on the rise.
Really and I hope the worse fears of dogs being abandoned do not materialise
Mind you my beloved wife would adopt them all if she could
As for joining the EEA I shall tell you what Michael Gove privately thinks about that.
Not going to happen, the Leavers (and The Notorious CRG in particular) would view it as a stepping stone to rejoining and oust any Tory PM to try it.
Labour will not offer to join the EEA as they know the Tories and Farage will spin it as trying to overturn democracy.
The other not so inconsiderable problem is getting our European friends to agree, after the whole Brexit farrago and exit deal they really don't want to have to go through that again.
The only terms they'd offer is something so humiliating and one sided that no UK Prime Minister could ever countenance it.
Agree that a Labour majority government wouldn't do it... but a Labour minority reliant on the Lib Dems for confidence and supply might. I imagine Davey is going to want to get some kind of major policy concession from Labour in return for the Lib Dem's support. The other alternative is voting reform (i.e. a referendum on PR), which I can't see the unions being too keen on Labour going ahead with.
Given the choice of voting reform or EEA - Labour will go for voting reform.
Remember that Labour was going to do it back in 1997 until they won a thumping majority - this time round they know they need to do something to fix the bias against them created by the new boundaries and Scotland.
I suspect a Labour Minority Government would love a deal with the Lib Dems attached to PR - to the extent they would implement it without a referendum.
If Labour goes for PR the left and half the unions would walk out of the party and set up their own party with Corbyn.
There would never be a Labour majority government again and the LDs would normally be Kingmakers, occasionally RefUK who would also win seats (remember in 2015 we would have had a Tory and UKIP coalition government with PR)
My eldest son is reaching an age when he will soon be broadly aware of what a Prime Minister is and who they are. If the Tory rebels fail to depose BoJo and he bats on much longer, then my son’s first memory of a Prime Minister will be of Boris Johnson, someone who will now always carry a reputation for lying, cheating and rule breaking. All the things that healthy societies try to teach their children not to do.
I don’t know if HY has children or not but he would do well to look past partisan Party or personal interest and consider instead whether he thinks this Prime Minister is someone that our children should admire and model their own behaviour against. The same goes of course for the 200-300 ordinary Tory MPs who are the only ones with the power to do anything about it.
r4 6 pm news leading on kabul. Lot of mileage left in that. Goldsmith been told to explain to Lords why he lied to them.
Just on that, the media have been showing lots of cuddly puppies all day as part of the evacuation and I would suggest not to underestimate just how popular their evacuation is with large parts of the population
Dog ownership has exploded during covid and I cannot recall a time when I have seen so many families out with their dogs on Llandudno and Colwyn Bays beaches and promenades
Dog prices have more than trebled, with even bog standard cockapoo puppies now selling for £2500-£3000.
But, as companies start to insist that their office workers start to return to the office, there are signs that the number of dogs being given in to rescue centres is on the rise.
Really and I hope the worse fears of dogs being abandoned do not materialise
Mind you my beloved wife would adopt them all if she could
..
Interesting dog. Part Bedlington terrier? Though the ears and tail suggest a mixed breed. Quite distinctive.
Pumi. Recognised as a breed in its own right in Hungary since the 1920s and by both the US and UK kennel clubs just within the last few years.
"The Maida Vale hero should not be left dangling on police bail for a month Every day of his ordeal sends a signal out to other public-spirited citizens that society will punish them for trying to do the right thing Patrick O'Flynn" (£)
As for joining the EEA I shall tell you what Michael Gove privately thinks about that.
Not going to happen, the Leavers (and The Notorious CRG in particular) would view it as a stepping stone to rejoining and oust any Tory PM to try it.
Labour will not offer to join the EEA as they know the Tories and Farage will spin it as trying to overturn democracy.
The other not so inconsiderable problem is getting our European friends to agree, after the whole Brexit farrago and exit deal they really don't want to have to go through that again.
The only terms they'd offer is something so humiliating and one sided that no UK Prime Minister could ever countenance it.
Agree that a Labour majority government wouldn't do it... but a Labour minority reliant on the Lib Dems for confidence and supply might. I imagine Davey is going to want to get some kind of major policy concession from Labour in return for the Lib Dem's support. The other alternative is voting reform (i.e. a referendum on PR), which I can't see the unions being too keen on Labour going ahead with.
I agree a CU with the EU and closer alignment to the EEA is likely if there is a hung parliament and Labour has over 300 seats and Starmer just needs LD confidence and supply. That is coincidentally what most current polls are suggesting
This is why I think a strong Labour minority gvt with 300 seats is probably the best outcome of the next election, better than Labour getting a small majority and Starmer might even be able to play not having a majority to his advantage like Cameron and Johnson did. Labour will also be prevented from going back to the worst elements of New Labour between 2005-10.
I'm not sure how much leverage the lib dems will have on PR but I'm confident about an sustainable compromise on closer alignment to the EU.
Of course arguably the same applied in 2010. A strong Cameron minority government with LD support was more sustainable than a small majority Conservative government would have been. See what happened after Cameron finally won his majority in 2015
Also Princeton Student Ballet has no power over us, or anyone much. Their nonsense can and probably is met with indifference, if not snorts of derision. On topic, I am much more concerned about a corrupt, dishonest and incompetent prime minister continuing to undermine the body politic of this country. That genuinely is dangerous, but @Leon doesn't seem bothered about it.
@Leon will die in the ditch for Boris Johnson because Boris annoys "the lefties".
Turns out the $100 million skull that Damien Hirst and White Cube said they sold in 2007 still belongs to them... The work appears to have been inside a storage facility in London for 15 years: https://t.co/1f8ESRj3Fh
Imo Damien Hirst is not an artist but a graphic designer who got lucky. In a parallel universe, his spot paintings are just wrapping paper.
Con-artist, perhaps?
So Damien Hirst was telling porkies - are we surprised? And there are more of the same in that article. Perhaps - like Afro Man - he was High.
The thing that continues to baffle me is that artists get an extra up to 4% Royalty on an artwork that they have already sold previously. If it's sold, it's sold. Loopy, and should be abolished now that we have escaped the Brussels' net).
And as for grandchildren or others having a right to freeload off their grandparents' work for 90 years after the artist dies ... Grrr.
Also Princeton Student Ballet has no power over us, or anyone much. Their nonsense can and probably is met with indifference, if not snorts of derision. On topic, I am much more concerned about a corrupt, dishonest and incompetent prime minister continuing to undermine the body politic of this country. That genuinely is dangerous, but @Leon doesn't seem bothered about it.
@Leon will die in the ditch for Boris Johnson because Boris annoys "the lefties".
Comments
That full post should have been:
In June 2016 in response to my thread on joining the EEA HYUFD said:
"No, just realpolitik. We can still try for an EFTA deal with Norway, Switzerland, Iceland and Liechtenstein which preserves some elements of the single market and free movement. UKIP may protest a little but the referendum was about leaving the EU not ending all immigration and trade completely"
You were the one agreeing with me and advocating EFTA after the referendum.
What happened to you?
https://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/simple-questions-about-january-6/
Why do you hunt out all these slightly mad right-wing sites to source your "Wokestapo" stuff?
(By the way, 'Wokestapo" is particularly feeble for a literary giant like you. It doesn't exactly roll off the tongue, does it?)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A.C._Milan
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-60148482
BBC News - Kwarteng: No U-Turn on National Insurance tax rise
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-60149993
Daniel Hannan.
Dog ownership has exploded during covid and I cannot recall a time when I have seen so many families out with their dogs on Llandudno and Colwyn Bays beaches and promenades
Suez surely demonstrated that PMs can be backed into almost anything.
But, as companies start to insist that their office workers start to return to the office, there are signs that the number of dogs being given in to rescue centres is on the rise.
Oh, and can you at least agree that your use of "Wokestapo" is poor, for several reasons, at least one of them rather obvious?
To lose TWO F35s, off the side of two carriers, in as many months…
Most Remainers at that time would have accepted EEA as the closest alternative to Remain on offer. However they still would have voted for Remain over EEA in the Referendum if that was the main basis of the Leave campaign.
However over 5 years later, I am quite happy with the Boris Deal which respects the Leave vote in full, including ending free movement and replacing it with a points system and allowing us to do our own trade deals while still having a trade deal with the EU. I would have opposed No Deal Brexit yes but I actually think the Boris Deal is in many respects better than EEA
This is a real moral dividing line: lovely doggies vs swarthy people. I am sure Hyduf will be along to point out that the swarthies were never going to vote con even if they got here.
Just that I had this vision of exploding dogs and their owners scattered along Llandudno promenade...
Mind you my beloved wife would adopt them all if she could
Talking of making money from nowhere, a friend just sent me this (NSFW) explaination of NFTs
https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1150x1608/c3c4cfz6km981_923ba03603b51f4166fb0f176a07872f2c14b884.jpg
Those who dislike governments lying and being chaotic, already dislike this government.
To those who don't mind that, this story does not change their vote.
To people who like fluffy animals, a small number change their vote.
To people with Afghan relatives or connections, a tiny number change their vote the other way.
I think after the vote there was a period of shock where all sorts of solutions were possible, including EFTA or “Norway for now”.
Polling did indeed suggest that - to the extent people understood the trade-offs - some middle option was preferable.
But May flunked it.
In the absence of any communicated strategy, “Brexit means Brexit”, both sides dug in to mutually incompatible “extremes”.*
In practice, this meant a hard (non-EEA) Brexit as May ended up feared the Spartans on the back bench more than anything.
By the time the opportunity did finally came around to go for an EEA type approach, Remainers in parliament failed to support it in favour of a second referendum.
I remain convinced that May could have sold the country on “Norway for Now” in mid to late 2016. I also think she screwed up in exercising A50, but that’s a separate argument.
*Personally I think the Remainer argument for a second referendum was totally valid.
Remainers who hated Corbyn or the few Leavers who opposed the Boris Deal as too hard and hated Corbyn voted LD. Leavers who thought the Boris Deal was too soft and wanted No Deal WTO terms Brexit voted Brexit Party or UKIP
I love stories of dog homes being presented with We found this stray and brought it to you, and they do a search and there's the actual same dog asking £2,000 3 days ago on local craigslist
The only issue here is that our national leader was asked a straight question and, once again, chose to give a crooked answer.
I'm a supporter of Exeter Chiefs, and it never worried me but I see it did some and the rebranding to feature a tribe that actually existed in the area is probably more appropriate - they'll flog a few shirts off it, anyway.
Someone asked if Exeter is technically far enough west to claim the Dumnonni as their own... well, Exeter's Roman name was Isca Dumnoniorum (basically river of the Dumnonni) so, although the written history is pretty sparse it's probably fair enough. The centre of it all is probably a bit further west around the tin mining areas of what is now the Devon/Cornwall border - that's certainly the economic centre as there was a thriving trade down to the Med as early as the Phoenician era. But Exeter is pretty comfortably part of "their" area.
Indeed, one minor drawback of the Dumnonni as an association is that Exeter Chiefs probably want to convey a warlike quality, and there's no real evidence of that being accurate. The suggestion is they were a pretty peaceful, rich bunch with a very well established trade links over a wide area. As a peninsula, they were quite well placed to avoid major conflict and it would've been bad for business. Probably needed to scrap with the odd raiding party but that's it. The Cornish like to pretend the Romans didn't venture much beyond Exeter as they feared the mighty Cornish, but that's a crock of sh1te - the truth is in many ways more flattering; they were canny enough not to cause any ructions, and earn a good living from tin. We could all learn from them... to be deliberately provocative, I suspect they'd have been Remainers.
Wake me up on Grayday
Plus of course Trump as President imposed plenty of tariffs on EU imports. Biden has done a deal with the EU to remove them and I am sure will get round to removing ours in due course too
Nobody uses it because a post is not exactly on the thread header anyway
I imagine Davey is going to want to get some kind of major policy concession from Labour in return for the Lib Dem's support. The other alternative is voting reform (i.e. a referendum on PR), which I can't see the unions being too keen on Labour going ahead with.
Sue Gray's report could be so bad, Boris either resigns or his mps exercise a 'coup d' etat' as early as next week
This is why Boris at the dispatch box, probably on Monday, with Sue Gray's report in his hand is such high drama
Princeton University Ballet is an amateur company, started as recently as 2008. Their productions are hardly revolutionary, and they are not exactly at the cultural core of the Ballet world.
https://youtu.be/hsdRH8Al1pc
They do seem to have attracted a reasonably diverse group of undergrads to their student society:
http://www.princetonuniversityballet.com/dancers.html
Fox jr2 is a budding actor, and his flatmate is a former professional dancer. Unfortunately his dance career collapsed with covid, but he was becoming quite disenchanted with the world of professional dance.
His dance director would line up the dancers at the beginning of the week and tear a strip off the dancers he didn't like for various aspects of their appearance, particularly their weight and physique. Bear in mind that these were professional dancers, not random kids from the street. By any normal yardstick they were a very buff and slim group of youngsters. They would also be drilled despite injuries, sometimes to the point of permanent damage. The high rate of anorexia nervosa in professional ballet dancers suggests this is not unusual.
The world of performing arts gives the impression of being luvvies, but the reality is often callous and brutal. It is a world that could do with some serious cultural critique.
However, it someone is targeting you then it is wrong and it needs to stop now
Remember that Labour was going to do it back in 1997 until they won a thumping majority - this time round they know they need to do something to fix the bias against them created by the new boundaries and Scotland.
I suspect a Labour Minority Government would love a deal with the Lib Dems attached to PR - to the extent they would implement it without a referendum.
He is so blatantly lying about Kabul, but if he has no shame about lying whatchagonna do about it? Appoint a Royal Commission to report by 2027?
You tried to justify the benefits of the Australian and NZ deal before. I recall you were reduced to trying to sell them carrots.
Do you not wonder why the EU was ahead us in the queue? Do you not realize the same will apply to all serious deals. Size matters.
The sums don't add up.
I'm not sure how much leverage
the lib dems will have on PR but I'm confident about an sustainable compromise on closer alignment to the EU.
A day of divergent polls and needless to say everyone will cling to their favourite like a drowning man to a lifebelt.
I will simply note all three have the LDs in double figures and 13% with IPSOS-MORI is an encouraging sign.
Indeed, that would be a 7.5% UNS swing from Conservative to Liberal Democrat which would be nice (as someone once said).
On other things - in my local Tesco's this evening, the "mandatory" wearing of masks not being enforced so I do wonder what's the point. Generally, mask wearing reduced but still present. Once again the Evening Standard hails the "big return" but again the facts don't support that. Passenger transport numbers for rail and London Underground haven't moved much at just over and just under half pre-Covid respectively.
For all the propaganda, the "new normal" is here and the operational economic models for transport providers need to reflect that and I suspect no amount of free coffee/tea is going to get commuters back because the problem has never been the office desk but the commute itself. All the vox pops are about the journey not the destination and the current reduction in services is another disincentive to march back to the battery farm.
The Kent by-elections are counting tomorrow - to be honest, the Conservatives enjoy huge majorities in all the seats and even in these febrile times it should be three easy holds and even though there are LD candidates for the first time in a while it will look bad if any of these seats are lost by the blues.
I am not convinced Boris is out of the woods yet
Only Tory MPs can force him out.
They wont I now think.
This is over.
Sunak will come to regret what he did not do this week and next week.
But I have been wrong many times before...
It isn't different from football. Guardiola has famously kicked players out after returning from their summer break not in shape
Think of the bandwidth this costs...
ETA broken the links
There would never be a Labour majority government again and the LDs would normally be Kingmakers, occasionally RefUK who would also win seats (remember in 2015 we would have had a Tory and UKIP coalition government with PR)
I don’t know if HY has children or not but he would do well to look past partisan Party or personal interest and consider instead whether he thinks this Prime Minister is someone that our children should admire and model their own behaviour against. The same goes of course for the 200-300 ordinary Tory MPs who are the only ones with the power to do anything about it.
Every day of his ordeal sends a signal out to other public-spirited citizens that society will punish them for trying to do the right thing
Patrick O'Flynn" (£)
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/01/27/maida-vale-hero-should-not-left-dangling-police-bail-month/
So Damien Hirst was telling porkies - are we surprised? And there are more of the same in that article. Perhaps - like Afro Man - he was High.
The thing that continues to baffle me is that artists get an extra up to 4% Royalty on an artwork that they have already sold previously. If it's sold, it's sold. Loopy, and should be abolished now that we have escaped the Brussels' net).
And as for grandchildren or others having a right to freeload off their grandparents' work for 90 years after the artist dies ... Grrr.