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Ipsos-MORI net Johnson satisfaction rating slumps to minus 46% – politicalbetting.com

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  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 35,171
    Cookie said:

    When we voted in the referendum, we had to weigh up:
    - what was the outcome we wanted.
    - a few scenarios of what might have happened had we voted remain, the positives and negatives of each, and the chances of each
    - a few scenarios of what might have happened had we voted leave, the positives and negatives of each, and the chances of each.

    I don't think anyone can be wholly blamed for not getting the outcome they wanted, as long as they went into the process with their eyes open.

    My preference was also an EEA-type deal. I thought the chances of getting it were less than 50% - though I thought we would be prevented from getting it more out of European spite than Remainer obstinance. I hold 2017-2019 Remainers partly responsible, though in all honesty European spite played a not insignificant part in Theresa May's deal not being particularly attractive, along with Theresa May's negotiating team not negotiating particularly effectively. But there we are.

    We may still end up with an EEA deal - which we never would had we voted Remain.

    I took - and still take - the slightly niche position that Remain was the high risk option, and that the worst case scenario of leaving is nothing like as scary as the worst case scenario of remaining: further integration, democracy whittling away bit by bit, incompetent technocrats in power, the Euro exploding and being significantly on the hook for it. Troublesome borders seem minor and soluble problems in comparison.

    Anyway, the point is, it was a massively complex weighing up exercise and Rochdale's decisions were reasonable at the time.
    Nothing to do with the ERG die-hards. Oh no, nothing at all.
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 23,267
    edited January 2022

    Yeah, breaking the law then lying about it to parliament - who cares?
    There is no law against having a slice of cake in the office on somebody's birthday and there never has been.

    As for lying to Parliament I don't think even the most strait-laced boring individual would consider a slice of cake in the office to be a "party" let alone someone as hedonistic as Boris.

    The other stories are concerning but that's just dumb.
  • El_CapitanoEl_Capitano Posts: 4,243

    Yes, and I think Cummings is still the other crucial factor there, too. He seems to have several allies in government, and he's going to keep going on and on. The Nowzat Dogs stuff is from way after most of the pandemic, for instance.
    He was the right-hand man of the current Secretary of State for Levelling Up and he's married to the commissioning editor of the house journal of the Conservative Party. You bet he has allies in government.
  • El_CapitanoEl_Capitano Posts: 4,243
    Cookie said:

    Sadly I do not have that excuse! I had a perfectly adequate breakfast. I think I've just managed to trick myself into eating an excess of cake.
    Get with the programme. You didn't trick yourself into eating the cake. You were ambushed with it.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,647

    Not surprisingly I suppose, I agree with you 100%. Even worse this is not 20:20 hindsight. There were plenty of us saying this before the referendum.

    Mind you it is why I am both still very happy with my vote and in the long term prospects. Get some adults in number 10 - from whatever party it might be - and the fixes are not that difficult. It just takes willing and common sense. I believe Starmer gets this, as do a fair few on the Tory side. Get rid of Boris one way or another and we can start to put things right.
    I have a mate (yeah, yeah, I know) who is a v senior economist bod. You would have heard of him.

    He put it to me that the EEA wouldn't have had us as we would have swamped the organisation; our economy was simply too big to be in such a set up, which apart from anything else was (EFTA court notwithstanding) virtually a rule-taker from the EU.

    Would we have/could we have? Who knows I'm just passing on what he said.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 35,171

    There is no law against having a slice of cake in the office on somebody's birthday and there never has been.

    The other stories are concerning but that's just dumb.
    AIUI there was a law against social indoor gatherings of this nature. But let's see what Sue Gray, the Met, and then most importantly, the public at large make of it.
  • Gary_BurtonGary_Burton Posts: 737
    edited January 2022

    I see Dave Nellist is standing in the Erdington By Election

    As an MP he only ever took the Salary of his "average Constituent" donated the rest to his CLP

    He was still a councillor in Coventry until a decade ago. He has continued standing there under the TUSC banner. He got nearly 20% in 2016 but he only got 9% last year.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 14,718

    Nothing to do with the ERG die-hards. Oh no, nothing at all.
    Well they bear responsiblity too of course. But uniquely in all this they got the result that they wanted and were explicit about wanting and voted for consistently.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 34,154
    Scott_xP said:

    Official figures show the UK has recorded 338 new COVID-related deaths and 96,871 new cases

    For more on this and other news visit http://news.sky.com

    Other channels are available.
  • state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 5,850
    edited January 2022

    A lot of what passes for Celtic culture is an invention of the Romantic period, as with much of the ancient origins of the various national identities of Europe. It serves fairly directly as the bedrock for non-English identity in the islands of Britain and Ireland.

    Is Exeter far enough West to claim a lineage from the "Celts" in the South West of England? I don't know.

    On the one hand it is all a nonsense, but on the other hand it touches at a deep level on people's sense of identity. It's easy to feel a bit annoyed that they're exploiting other people's identity to make money. That doesn't sit comfortably with me.

    Exeter has a long and colourful history as a Roman garrison, home to early English poetry, a loyal Royalist city, and more. Surely the rugby club can create a club identity based on some of the real local history instead of lazily appropriating somebody else's?
    I consider myself fairly woke on race (if not quite other stuff) as my daughter is mixed race, my wife from a indian muslim heritage and dont believe in borders really . Honestly though I really dont get the argument about cultural appropriation especially when not done to ridicule etc. If the world never did any cultural appropriation then it would be a very insular,ignorant of other cultures and divided world . I am not a huge fan of sports teams being given hyped up names and prefer a straight Exeter/colchester./liverpool FC etc but if they are to have hyped up nicknames I dont think Exeter have anything to feel sorry for with their Chiefs nickname. After all isn't copying a form of flattery ?
  • Cookie said:

    All fair points - but equally I would be astonished were Native Americans up in arms because of the brand identity of a rugby club from Devon.
    If they did find out, they'd probably demand a casino booth in the stand.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 53,866
    UK cases by specimen date

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  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 53,866
    UK cases by specimen date and scaled to 100K

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  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 53,866
    UK R

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  • Wasting yet more time doing yet more fucking customs forms this time to export products which are zero tariff zero quota zero VAT from one place to another to declare that its the same fucking standards on one side of the border as it is on the other.

    Seriously, this is why the Border Operating Model doesn't work and why we're completely gumming up our border so that everything takes an eternity to get through. Pointless red tape to declare that no tariff is payable, that no vat is payable, that no standards are different because our standards are their standards are our fucking standards. What is the point in all this?

    Before some arse says "but you voted for this", no I didn't. "This" is the Boris Brexit deal. Where after decades of cutting red tape cost and petty bureaucracy the Tory party decided to fuck all that off and impose as much as possible. Not because we actually have diverged and there is anything to check. But because we might want to do so at some point in the future.

    Madness. And still prannocks say "but this is much better for the country than we had before". Is it fuck.

    This is what you voted for. They literally said we'd leave the Single Market and Customs Union during the campaign.

    And there isn't a single non-EU EEA nation in the Customs Union anyway.

    So if you wanted to leave the EU but still have all EU benefits then I'm sorry but that's your own mistake.

    And we actually have diverged. UK customs rules are not 100% the same as EU ones anymore. UK tariff schedules are not 100% the same as EU ones anymore. So the divergence is very real which is what we voted for.

    So fill in the forms and quit moaning.
  • Am I correct in thinking that a lot of his best work you won't know it was him as he was ghost writer of lots of jokes for much more famous comedians?

    @TheSimonEvans
    I am removing the word "writer" from my CV.
    https://twitter.com/TheSimonEvans/status/1486646775108800514

  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 53,866
    Case summary

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  • Am I correct in thinking that a lot of his best work you won't know it was him as he was ghost writer of lots of jokes for much more famous comedians?
    I saw him performing live in his 'First Farewell Tour'. He was superb.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 53,866
    Hospitals

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  • Andy_CookeAndy_Cooke Posts: 5,045

    Brexit is leaving the EU.

    Our problems now are because we have left the EEA

    The EEA is not the EU.

    We could have created a free trade deal with the EU which allowed free trade to continue to flow. We have chosen not to. That was done by the Conservative government elected in 2019. Which I did not vote for.
    I also was inclined to an "out of the EU, in the EEA" scenario.

    However, I concluded that a Brexit made by those likely to be in power at the time would have virtually no chance of ending up there, so I ended up voting Remain as the only plausible option to stay in the EEA.

  • TOPPING said:

    I have a mate (yeah, yeah, I know) who is a v senior economist bod. You would have heard of him.

    He put it to me that the EEA wouldn't have had us as we would have swamped the organisation; our economy was simply too big to be in such a set up, which apart from anything else was (EFTA court notwithstanding) virtually a rule-taker from the EU.

    Would we have/could we have? Who knows I'm just passing on what he said.
    Well if he was saying that the EFTA countries are just rule takers then clearly he is not very well versed in the way he system actually works. That particular myth was comprehensively disproved long ago.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 53,866
    Deaths

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  • eekeek Posts: 29,554

    This is what you voted for. They literally said we'd leave the Single Market and Customs Union during the campaign.

    And there isn't a single non-EU EEA nation in the Customs Union anyway.

    So if you wanted to leave the EU but still have all EU benefits then I'm sorry but that's your own mistake.

    And we actually have diverged. UK customs rules are not 100% the same as EU ones anymore. UK tariff schedules are not 100% the same as EU ones anymore. So the divergence is very real which is what we voted for.

    So fill in the forms and quit moaning.
    Since when has Norway (and Liechtenstein) been an EU member?
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 34,154
    edited January 2022
    Annoying that Betfair Exchange haven't got anything available for the Southend West by-election.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 53,866
    Age related data

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  • Andy_JS said:

    Annoying that Betfair Exchange haven't got anything available for the Southend West by-election.

    Smarkets do though.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    Sandpit said:

    “Sadly Barry Cryer passed away today, aged 86. Do you know who he was?”

    “I’m sorry, I haven’t a clue”.

    Very sad news. I love the older ISIHAC episodes with Barry&Graeme vs Tim&guest. During lockdown I must have got through at least 100 of those episodes.

    Strangely, for decades one of the standing jokes was how close to the end of life Barry was (and of course Humph).
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 37,657
    Worth reading...

    It’s Holocaust Memorial Day. This year, I’m thinking of a woman called Sulamita Szapiro. Here she is as a student. We weren’t related and I don’t even know much about her, but I’m pretty sure that remembering her still falls to me. This is a thread about why. https://twitter.com/hugorifkind/status/1486733736083292163/photo/1
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 56,022

    Am I correct in thinking that a lot of his best work you won't know it was him as he was ghost writer of lots of jokes for much more famous comedians?
    Yes, he was a very prolific comedy writer. Wrote for many TV shows across decades, and indeed it’s rumoured a lot of jokes for standup comics, something which usually goes uncredited. Standups almost always credit their shows as written and performed by just themselves, but they often work with other comics and writers as part of the creative process. Cryer was well known as someone who could give ‘notes’ to a comedian, he had an ear for the funniest form of words to use in a sentence.
  • Scott_xP said:

    Worth reading...

    It’s Holocaust Memorial Day. This year, I’m thinking of a woman called Sulamita Szapiro. Here she is as a student. We weren’t related and I don’t even know much about her, but I’m pretty sure that remembering her still falls to me. This is a thread about why. https://twitter.com/hugorifkind/status/1486733736083292163/photo/1

    Yes, it's a remarkable thread.
  • eekeek Posts: 29,554
    TOPPING said:

    I have a mate (yeah, yeah, I know) who is a v senior economist bod. You would have heard of him.

    He put it to me that the EEA wouldn't have had us as we would have swamped the organisation; our economy was simply too big to be in such a set up, which apart from anything else was (EFTA court notwithstanding) virtually a rule-taker from the EU.

    Would we have/could we have? Who knows I'm just passing on what he said.
    The issue is really as RP says we are spending a lot of time checking items that don't generate any revenue and really don't require any checking.

    What we are missing is a trusted trader scheme or similar that allows all these lorries to sail through while spending times on others that may contain vatable produce or items that require actual checks.

    And we won't have that until both us and the EU have grown ups in the room and stop the petty point scoring for political gain.
  • AIUI there was a law against social indoor gatherings of this nature. But let's see what Sue Gray, the Met, and then most importantly, the public at large make of it.
    Indeed it will be interesting what they say. I doubt they'll say that people who were gathered primarily for work reasons anyway having a slice of cake during the work day was against the law.

    And I think you'll find plenty of normal law-abiding citizens around the country would have had a slice of cake on the birthday of someone they were working with and never for one second would have thought that's criminal behaviour.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 14,718

    I consider myself fairly woke on race (if not quite other stuff) as my daughter is mixed race, my wife from a indian muslim heritage and dont believe in borders really . Honestly though I really dont get the argument about cultural appropriation especially when not done to ridicule etc. If the world never did any cultural appropriation then it would be a very insular,ignorant of other cultures and divided world . I am not a huge fan of sports teams being given hyped up names and prefer a straight Exeter/colchester./liverpool FC etc but if they are to have hyped up nicknames I dont think Exeter have anything to feel sorry for with their Chiefs nickname. After all isn't copying a form or flattery ?
    The thing to ask yourself is whether you would be annoyed if, say, a football team in, say, China, called itself 'Xian English FC', and gave itself a sort of portmanteau English identity of bowler hats and suits of armour and so forth. I'd be amused but unoffended.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 53,866
    COVID Summary

    - Cases. Looks like R is dropping back to 1. Cases are flat(ish). Falling in the older groups
    - Admissions - Down. R is solidly below 1 for admissions
    - MV beds - Down
    - In hospital - Down
    - Deaths - a slow fall is firming up in the data

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  • Imagine if in 30's Germany , a football team called themselves (say) Berlin Israelites and had a picture of Moses as its badge. Hitler would not have been impressed no doubt. To those who bullied Exeter into changing their name , think about who else in history did not like cultural appropriation.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,647

    Well if he was saying that the EFTA countries are just rule takers then clearly he is not very well versed in the way he system actually works. That particular myth was comprehensively disproved long ago.
    No that wasn't the main thrust of his point; it was that the UK would not have fit in the EEA as simply as some might have wanted if at all.

    As for the EFTA court we discussed this five years ago and I'm not about to do so again.
  • ApplicantApplicant Posts: 3,379

    Not surprisingly I suppose, I agree with you 100%. Even worse this is not 20:20 hindsight. There were plenty of us saying this before the referendum.

    Mind you it is why I am both still very happy with my vote and in the long term prospects. Get some adults in number 10 - from whatever party it might be - and the fixes are not that difficult. It just takes willing and common sense. I believe Starmer gets this, as do a fair few on the Tory side. Get rid of Boris one way or another and we can start to put things right.
    I still hope an EEA-type solution is possible. It's unfortunate - at the least - that a combination of Cameron flouncing, May failing to understand the public and continuity Remainers fighting against any form of Brexit meant that we didn't get it from the start. There was always probably a majority in the country for it.
  • eek said:

    Since when has Norway (and Liechtenstein) been an EU member?
    Since when has either Norway or Liechtenstein been in the EU's customs union?
  • The club Wasps also got involved:

    https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2021/oct/12/wasps-ask-premiership-to-consider-ban-on-exeter-chiefs-headdresses

    But did anyone ask the eponymous insects used on their logo if it was okay? If not isn't that also a form of cultural appropriation? To deny it is surely pure speciesism.
    If this trend continues Saracens are in deep doo-doo.

    Will Leyton Orient ever be invited to Beijing?
  • I consider myself fairly woke on race (if not quite other stuff) as my daughter is mixed race, my wife from a indian muslim heritage and dont believe in borders really . Honestly though I really dont get the argument about cultural appropriation especially when not done to ridicule etc. If the world never did any cultural appropriation then it would be a very insular,ignorant of other cultures and divided world . I am not a huge fan of sports teams being given hyped up names and prefer a straight Exeter/colchester./liverpool FC etc but if they are to have hyped up nicknames I dont think Exeter have anything to feel sorry for with their Chiefs nickname. After all isn't copying a form of flattery ?
    I think the rugby team has been nicknamed 'the Chiefs' for the best part of a century. But associating the name with Native American imagery is only a recent phenomenon.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    Scott_xP said:

    Worth reading...

    It’s Holocaust Memorial Day. This year, I’m thinking of a woman called Sulamita Szapiro. Here she is as a student. We weren’t related and I don’t even know much about her, but I’m pretty sure that remembering her still falls to me. This is a thread about why. https://twitter.com/hugorifkind/status/1486733736083292163/photo/1

    Absolutely. Excellent piece.
  • I consider myself fairly woke on race (if not quite other stuff) as my daughter is mixed race, my wife from a indian muslim heritage and dont believe in borders really . Honestly though I really dont get the argument about cultural appropriation especially when not done to ridicule etc. If the world never did any cultural appropriation then it would be a very insular,ignorant of other cultures and divided world . I am not a huge fan of sports teams being given hyped up names and prefer a straight Exeter/colchester./liverpool FC etc but if they are to have hyped up nicknames I dont think Exeter have anything to feel sorry for with their Chiefs nickname. After all isn't copying a form of flattery ?
    The irony is that the whole Chiefs/Tigers/Whatever thing is itself cultural appropriation of American sports because some marketing guru convinced the ruling bodies that *that* was what fans cared about.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 14,718

    I also was inclined to an "out of the EU, in the EEA" scenario.

    However, I concluded that a Brexit made by those likely to be in power at the time would have virtually no chance of ending up there, so I ended up voting Remain as the only plausible option to stay in the EEA.

    Ironically the 2015-2017 parliament and 2017-2019 were much more likely to give us Brexit in the EEA, if they gave us Brexit - though less likely to get Brexit at all.
    I also thought though that if we remained then the out of the EU, in the EEA scenario would never happen - whereas if we left there was a chance of it happening further down the road.

    Like 50 million people all playing 3D chess at once.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 56,022

    If they did find out, they'd probably demand a casino booth in the stand.
    Ha. Funnily enough, the big news in the sandpit today, is that we are going to get the first casino resort in what’s otherwise a relatively conservative Islamic part of the world. Not quite sure what the older locals will think of it.
    https://www.thenationalnews.com/uae/2022/01/25/las-vegas-hotel-operator-wynn-to-build-1000-room-resort-in-ras-al-khaimah/
  • TimTTimT Posts: 6,468

    Ipsos Mori

    England
    Lab 44%
    Con 38%
    LD 11%

    Scotland
    SNP 51%
    Con 23%
    Lab 16%
    LD 10%

    Wales
    Lab 54%
    PC 19%
    Con 15%

    (Ipsos MORI/Evening Standard; 19-25 January; 1,059)

    LOL At this rate, will we see crossover in the Con support rate of England vs Scotland?
  • Scott_xP said:

    Worth reading...

    It’s Holocaust Memorial Day. This year, I’m thinking of a woman called Sulamita Szapiro. Here she is as a student. We weren’t related and I don’t even know much about her, but I’m pretty sure that remembering her still falls to me. This is a thread about why. https://twitter.com/hugorifkind/status/1486733736083292163/photo/1

    As an aside, at PMQs yesterday only the SNP's Ian Blackford mentioned Holocaust Memorial Day in the prelude to his questions.
  • Scott_xP said:

    Worth reading...

    It’s Holocaust Memorial Day. This year, I’m thinking of a woman called Sulamita Szapiro. Here she is as a student. We weren’t related and I don’t even know much about her, but I’m pretty sure that remembering her still falls to me. This is a thread about why. https://twitter.com/hugorifkind/status/1486733736083292163/photo/1

    Thanks for that Scott. That is terribly sad but also wonderful.
  • I consider myself fairly woke on race (if not quite other stuff) as my daughter is mixed race, my wife from a indian muslim heritage and dont believe in borders really . Honestly though I really dont get the argument about cultural appropriation especially when not done to ridicule etc. If the world never did any cultural appropriation then it would be a very insular,ignorant of other cultures and divided world . I am not a huge fan of sports teams being given hyped up names and prefer a straight Exeter/colchester./liverpool FC etc but if they are to have hyped up nicknames I dont think Exeter have anything to feel sorry for with their Chiefs nickname. After all isn't copying a form of flattery ?
    Completely agreed. I backed the BLM protests and defended the acquittal of the statue pullers, I too think I'm very woke on race but the one thing I can not understand is 'cultural appropriation'.

    Isn't cultural appropriation what we used to call multiculturalism or being a melting pot.

    Learning and adopting and adapting elements from other cultures is a key strength and benefit of immigration and having an open and welcoming society so how can it be a bad thing?
  • Home Office admits unlawful secret policy to seize all Channel migrants’ phones

    Asylum seekers had all possessions seized, despite committing no crime, amid Home Office ‘misunderstanding’ over law

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/migrant-phones-channel-home-office-b2002036.html
  • I think the rugby team has been nicknamed 'the Chiefs' for the best part of a century. But associating the name with Native American imagery is only a recent phenomenon.
    I did not know that bit still fail to see whats wrong . In a way its a bit of self identification - you may feel an affinity with native americans (maybe felt sorry for them in John Wayne films!) and thus like to dress up as one on your Saturday trip to rugby - What is wrong with that ? Its rather nice in a way. I though self identification was all the rage anyway these days
  • This is what you voted for. They literally said we'd leave the Single Market and Customs Union during the campaign.

    And there isn't a single non-EU EEA nation in the Customs Union anyway.

    So if you wanted to leave the EU but still have all EU benefits then I'm sorry but that's your own mistake.

    And we actually have diverged. UK customs rules are not 100% the same as EU ones anymore. UK tariff schedules are not 100% the same as EU ones anymore. So the divergence is very real which is what we voted for.

    So fill in the forms and quit moaning.
    There was no need to leave the Single Market when we left the EU. That is a specific decision taken by he post-referendum Government. The EEA always was and still is an option - indeed the best option. It is only he idiocy of the Governments since 2016 that has prevented it being seriously considered.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 14,718
    edited January 2022
    Seemingly this is the last joke Barry Cryer wrote before he died:

    A man and his wife are out walking one day when they spot a lone fellow on the other side of the road.
    “That looks like the Archbishop of Canterbury over there,” says the woman. “Go and see if it is.”
    The husband crosses the road and asks the man if he is indeed the Archbishop of Canterbury.
    “F— off,” says the man.
    The husband crosses back to his wife, who asks, “What did he say? Is he the Archbishop of Canterbury?”
    “He told me to f— off,” says the husband.
    “Oh no,” replies the wife, “Now we’ll never know.”

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/01/27/comedian-actor-barry-cryer-dies-aged-86/
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 37,657
    Labour's shadow defence secretary @JohnHealey_MP has written to @BWallaceMP whether he knew about the PM's involvement in the 'pets before people' Nowzad evacuation https://twitter.com/REWearmouth/status/1486743181320507395/photo/1
  • TimTTimT Posts: 6,468

    Completely agreed. I backed the BLM protests and defended the acquittal of the statue pullers, I too think I'm very woke on race but the one thing I can not understand is 'cultural appropriation'.

    Isn't cultural appropriation what we used to call multiculturalism or being a melting pot.

    Learning and adopting and adapting elements from other cultures is a key strength and benefit of immigration and having an open and welcoming society so how can it be a bad thing?
    I am agnostic on the sports teams' names issue. But I do agree that the names are not chosen as terms of ridicule or disrepect, but more out of a wish to project a fierce, proud image. Teams don't chose to go by wimpy or rubbish names. That Indians, Chiefs, Redskins were all chosen by professional US sports teams is not, in my mind, an intentional show of disrespect. Perhaps, though, if I were of American Indian descent, I'd think it does rather trivialize my culture.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,647
    edited January 2022

    There was no need to leave the Single Market when we left the EU. That is a specific decision taken by he post-referendum Government. The EEA always was and still is an option - indeed the best option. It is only he idiocy of the Governments since 2016 that has prevented it being seriously considered.
    Blimey it's deja vu all over again. Single market = free movement.

    You are one of the enlightened come all ye Brexiters. Plenty weren't and would have been apoplectic at the thought of a continuation of free movement. Where's @isam with that Brexit wordcloud again.
    .
  • There was no need to leave the Single Market when we left the EU. That is a specific decision taken by he post-referendum Government. The EEA always was and still is an option - indeed the best option. It is only he idiocy of the Governments since 2016 that has prevented it being seriously considered.
    There was no legal need to do so, but there was no legal need to leave the EU post referendum either if you want to play that game.

    During the referendum both parties (leavers and remainers) said that we'd leave the Single Market if we voted Leave. Boris literally said it in yes/no format during the referendum as did Gove as did Cummings' Vote Leave campaign.

    So ethically we had to. Not legally. And we knew that pre referendum.


  • There was no need to leave the Single Market when we left the EU. That is a specific decision taken by he post-referendum Government. The EEA always was and still is an option - indeed the best option. It is only he idiocy of the Governments since 2016 that has prevented it being seriously considered.

    Subject to the unanimous consent of 31 other countries, of course.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 50,969
    Latest R&W: For which OTHER party could current Labour voters see themselves voting?

    None: 34%
    Liberal Democrat: 28%
    Green: 22%
    Independent: 8%
    Conservative: 6%
    Don't know: 16%
  • TimTTimT Posts: 6,468

    I did not know that bit still fail to see whats wrong . In a way its a bit of self identification - you may feel an affinity with native americans (maybe felt sorry for them in John Wayne films!) and thus like to dress up as one on your Saturday trip to rugby - What is wrong with that ? Its rather nice in a way. I though self identification was all the rage anyway these days
    The only thing I see wrong is if it trivializes the culture in question.
  • ApplicantApplicant Posts: 3,379

    As an aside, at PMQs yesterday only the SNP's Ian Blackford mentioned Holocaust Memorial Day in the prelude to his questions.
    Though, in fairness, there's a substantial debate on it today. Perhaps he's not able to participate in that?
  • Daveyboy1961Daveyboy1961 Posts: 4,436

    This is what you voted for. They literally said we'd leave the Single Market and Customs Union during the campaign.

    And there isn't a single non-EU EEA nation in the Customs Union anyway.

    So if you wanted to leave the EU but still have all EU benefits then I'm sorry but that's your own mistake.

    And we actually have diverged. UK customs rules are not 100% the same as EU ones anymore. UK tariff schedules are not 100% the same as EU ones anymore. So the divergence is very real which is what we voted for.

    So fill in the forms and quit moaning.
    God, you can be an obnoxious prannock sometimes.
  • TimT said:

    The only thing I see wrong is if it trivializes the culture in question.
    i think most cultures can take a bit of trivialisation if done with no harm . All helps spread it
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 34,417

    I think the rugby team has been nicknamed 'the Chiefs' for the best part of a century. But associating the name with Native American imagery is only a recent phenomenon.
    Unless I am wrong the head honcho (is that OK?) of a Scots clan (itself a 19th C invention, at least in part) is described as a Chief.
    Chief of the Clan Mackay or something like that. How would the chap (or chapess) have been described in the 16th C?

    And I agree with Mr Go Away; my ancestors, like others in these islands appear to be a mixture of Celt and Saxon, and three of my grandchildren have mixed British Isles/Thai and possibly Cambodian heritage.
  • There was no legal need to do so, but there was no legal need to leave the EU post referendum either if you want to play that game.

    During the referendum both parties (leavers and remainers) said that we'd leave the Single Market if we voted Leave. Boris literally said it in yes/no format during the referendum as did Gove as did Cummings' Vote Leave campaign.

    So ethically we had to. Not legally. And we knew that pre referendum.
    This was not my view, and while I am probably as biased as you (in opposite direction) I did follow it pretty closely. This issue was largely left ambiguous by Leave, and quite deliberately. If a hard Brexit had been offered it would have scared the horses. Many people thought we would end up with an EEA solution, and I suspect had the Leave campaign been more explicit they might have lost. . If Cameron hadn't been so arrogant, the sensible thing would have been to have given three options: Hard Brexit (like we ended up with) EEA or status quo/remain with a single transferable vote for those who wish to use it. There then should have been a confirmatory vote to confirm the final deal. It was absolutely dumb to have had a binary vote on something so complex and important. I suspect we would have ended up with EEA as a good compromise, which of course is not what the headbangers want, so they essentially conned the British electorate.

    Too late now though, and in case you are wondering I am not in favour of rejoin.
  • Leon said:

    i wasn’t trying to wind you up, I’m glad you had nice holibobs. But, objectively, nowhere in the UK is as dangerous as urban South Africa
    Summon the firing squad.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    rcs1000 said:

    There is no such thing as cultural appropriation. Ideas are free.

    It's universities going on about it that baffles me, because if you take the culturally appropriated out of any course on anything, there's not much left.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 44,617
    IanB2 said:

    Latest R&W: For which OTHER party could current Labour voters see themselves voting?

    None: 34%
    Liberal Democrat: 28%
    Green: 22%
    Independent: 8%
    Conservative: 6%
    Don't know: 16%

    Hm, that is markedly more than 100% - so people must be allowed to give more than one (98% parties, 16% DK).
  • TimTTimT Posts: 6,468
    edited January 2022

    i think most cultures can take a bit of trivialisation if done with no harm . All helps spread it
    Yeah, but from the other side, I can see that watching 50,000 Atlanta Braves fans standing waving foam tomahawks in their hands over their heads and doing some faux Indian chant might engender the feeling of "And that is all they care to know about and take from my culture" The more I think about it, the more I am siding with the Native Americans.
  • Tories haven't had a poll lead since the Redfield & Wilton poll on Dec 6th.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 126,592
    edited January 2022

    There was no need to leave the Single Market when we left the EU. That is a specific decision taken by he post-referendum Government. The EEA always was and still is an option - indeed the best option. It is only he idiocy of the Governments since 2016 that has prevented it being seriously considered.
    If either May or Boris had gone for full EEA and full free movement then no way would the Tories have won a majority in 2019 and Brexit would not have got done as Farage's Brexit Party would have got about 15-20% of the vote. The Leave vote would thus still have been split rather than united as it was in December 2019 behind Boris' Brexit Deal
  • Subject to the unanimous consent of 31 other countries, of course.
    I think that could have been achieved. They would probably have seen it as ideal. No damage to the single market and the troublesome Rosbifs not interfering in where they wanted to take the EU in future
  • IshmaelZ said:

    It's universities going on about it that baffles me, because if you take the culturally appropriated out of any course on anything, there's not much left.
    yes its almost anti-learning . Maybe universities think any discussion or copying of culture needs to have a phd thesis behind it and it is not for the low or middle brow - Its a bit sinister if you ask me.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 50,825

    As an aside, at PMQs yesterday only the SNP's Ian Blackford mentioned Holocaust Memorial Day in the prelude to his questions.
    Though everybody from PM to LOTO seemed to be wearing Holocaust Memorial Day pins.

  • TimT said:

    Yeah, but from the other side, I can see that watching 50,000 Atlanta Braves fans standing waving foam tomahawks in their hands over their heads and doing some faux Indian chant might engender the feeling of "And that is all they care to know about and take from my culture" The more I think about it, the more I am siding with the Native Americans.
    I suggest, Tim, that you keep well away from the old firm soccer match between Rangers and Celtic.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,795
    Cookie said:

    On the subject of which, I don't think I have laughed as long or as loud or as often at anything on the internet as I have on this article:
    https://www.cracked.com/article_15646_the-worlds-most-ridiculous-sports-team-names.html

    Still, the sport with the best names in the world - ancient and modern, here and abroad - is, I have to admit, football.
    Consider England: Sheffield Wednesday. That would baffle the Americans. Is Wednesday the fiercest day of the week? possibly not. Kudos to Sheffield Wednesday for sticking with it into the modern age.
    Consider Scotland: Inverness Caledonian Thistle. Really, really Scottish. More Scottish than Partick Thistle. Consider also the bafflingly poetic Heart of Midlothian and Queen of the South. Again, would baffle the Americans.
    Consider the wonderful semi-final of the (I think) 1904 FA Cup, between Thornaby Utopians and Middlesbrough Ironopolis.
    Consider Bolivia, where, historically, the two most successful teams are called "The Strongest" and "Always Ready". The Strongest normally win - apart from, presumably, when they are not ready.
    Consider Europe: Go-Ahead Eagles, Young Boys of Berne. Helpfully, these advertise their silliness by naming themselves in English: I'm sure there are names just as baffling if you are able to delve into other languages.
    AC Milan also have an English name, weirdly. They are not AC Milano.

    And I can't believe you missed out Grasshoppers Zurich!
  • CiceroCicero Posts: 3,334
    edited January 2022

    There was no legal need to do so, but there was no legal need to leave the EU post referendum either if you want to play that game.

    During the referendum both parties (leavers and remainers) said that we'd leave the Single Market if we voted Leave. Boris literally said it in yes/no format during the referendum as did Gove as did Cummings' Vote Leave campaign.

    So ethically we had to. Not legally. And we knew that pre referendum.
    No we didn´t. Dan Hannam was quite clear during the campaign that Leaving could and should still mean UK presence in the single market. The decisions that TMay and others took to withdraw from all levels of EU cooperation, even including Erasmus, was as stupid and unnecessary as it was wrong headed. The most common view was that voters liked the economic cooperation, but were not ready to deal with the politics. Ending the political engagement was popular, but if people had not been destracted with lies, they would have looked far more carefully at the economic costs. Even when Leave won, a soft deal could have been the basis of a national compromise, but it was never offered.

    Now we will need to change course, find a softer deal and and re-engage with a great deal of the EU processes, because UK PLC can not take much more damage from the Hard Brexit policies that the Tories are inflicting.

    Meanwhiule, to be honest "Partygate" IS trivial, and yet that is still causing serious damage to the Conservatives, as and when it becomes clear that their flagship policy is also more or less an unmitigated disaster, then the outlook for the Tories could very well become terminal.

    However the Russian choice for war now seems very close, and so we will need to brace ourselves for a crisis that could even lead to the use of nuclear weapons, so we may need to rally round Ben Wallace, who has at least been on top of his brief in the last few weeks and simply ignore the mess in Number 10 for a while.

    The mood music from the tyrant in the Kremlin has not changed today, even though the West is trying to offer an off ramp to smooth Russian amour propre. Reinforcements within NATO, while welcome, are as yet insufficient to deter a Russian attack, and that is about as serious as it gets. If Russia goes into Ukraine, very bad things will happen.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 44,617

    I suggest, Tim, that you keep well away from the old firm soccer match between Rangers and Celtic.
    Especially wearing a name badge. (Not a joke, alas.)
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 50,825
    Leon said:

    But what is “trivialization”? To some it will be “just a laugh” to others it will be “cruel mockery”

    It’s all nonsense. As we discussed the other day, global cuisine would be infinitely poorer if Asia had not “appropriated” the chili pepper, and tomatoes, and much else

    And as for music, the glorious golden age of pop and rock - 1955-2005 - was all about black and white cultures borrowing from each other, and making it better. Should white people not play the Blues, or jazz? Should black people be barred from playing Mozart, or borrowing Rodrigo’s Guitar Concerto to make Sketches of Spain?

    “Cultural Appropriation” is one of the most sterile, desolating concept humans have ever created. Stay in your lane. Get in your silo. Shut your eyes and ears. Do not borrow anything, get offended by everything. UGH
    It is about respect for another's culture. Borrowing and even copying is fine, but mocking and parodying is not. So we no longer have blackface minstrel shows for example.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 50,969
    Leon said:

    But what is “trivialization”?
    A spelling mistake?
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,795

    Summon the firing squad.
    Indeed.
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 11,407

    Tories haven't had a poll lead since the Redfield & Wilton poll on Dec 6th.

    And haven't deserved one either.

    I think Boris is going to survive this. He's going to have to do something Houdini-like to get the Tories back on track though.
  • I think that could have been achieved. They would probably have seen it as ideal. No damage to the single market and the troublesome Rosbifs not interfering in where they wanted to take the EU in future
    Yes, probably. But obviously the devil is always in the detail in negotiations like that.

    Still, it was academic. Theresa May was absolutely right: there was no way that the bulk of Leavers (Richard Tyndall and a few others notwithstanding) would have accepted an option which left freedom of movement unchanged, and still left us subject to the vast majority of EU rules. The cries of 'Betrayal!' would have been deafening. It was a non-starter.
  • HYUFD said:

    If either May or Boris had gone for full EEA and full free movement then no way would the Tories have won a majority in 2019 and Brexit would not have got done as Farage's Brexit Party would have got about 15-20% of the vote. The Leave vote would thus still have been split rather than united as it was in December 2019 behind Boris' Brexit Deal
    Why do you always talk in absolutes? You have no fecking way of knowing whether that is true unless you have access to a parallel universe, though I sometimes wonder whether you inhabit one. You do not know how it might have been sold to the electorate. They might (and I suspect they would) have loved it and overlooked the free movement thing. It is just your (very) narrow opinion.

    Try using IMO, or even the more ironic IMHO occasionally and it might give you more cred.
  • I suggest, Tim, that you keep well away from the old firm soccer match between Rangers and Celtic.
    The tomahawks may not be made of foam.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 37,657
    One interesting Q of obvious relevance to now is whether a leader can recover from ratings as bad as Johnson's are now? The answer generally seems to be "no". Corbyn, Major, Brown and Foot all went on to heavy defeats at the next GE. Thatcher was removed.
    https://twitter.com/robfordmancs/status/1486750137686937602
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 79,096
    Must be only a matter of time before the Chiefs at Arrowhead are rebranded as the Missouri State Football Team...
  • LeonLeon Posts: 59,324
    Foxy said:

    It is about respect for another's culture. Borrowing and even copying is fine, but mocking and parodying is not. So we no longer have blackface minstrel shows for example.
    But the Wokestapo have going way beyond banning blackface. Indeed they have come for cuisine:

    “Jamie Oliver says he's hired cultural appropriation specialists to advise on cookbooks
    Jeevan Ravindran, CNN • Published 24th January 2022”

    https://www.cnn.com/travel/article/jamie-oliver-cultural-appropriation-scli-intl-gbr/index.html
  • ApplicantApplicant Posts: 3,379
    HYUFD said:

    If either May or Boris had gone for full EEA and full free movement then no way would the Tories have won a majority in 2019 and Brexit would not have got done as Farage's Brexit Party would have got about 15-20% of the vote. The Leave vote would thus still have been split rather than united as it was in December 2019 behind Boris' Brexit Deal
    If Cameron hadn't flounced there wouldn't have been a 2017 election, and wecould have been in the EEA before a 2019 or 2020 election.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 56,022

    AC Milan also have an English name, weirdly. They are not AC Milano.

    And I can't believe you missed out Grasshoppers Zurich!
    There have been a couple of Welsh league teams who changed their team name for sponsors - Total Network Solutions, who now call themselves The New Saints FC; and don’t forget Vauxhall Motors FC, from Ellesmere Port.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 126,592
    edited January 2022

    This was not my view, and while I am probably as biased as you (in opposite direction) I did follow it pretty closely. This issue was largely left ambiguous by Leave, and quite deliberately. If a hard Brexit had been offered it would have scared the horses. Many people thought we would end up with an EEA solution, and I suspect had the Leave campaign been more explicit they might have lost. . If Cameron hadn't been so arrogant, the sensible thing would have been to have given three options: Hard Brexit (like we ended up with) EEA or status quo/remain with a single transferable vote for those who wish to use it. There then should have been a confirmatory vote to confirm the final deal. It was absolutely dumb to have had a binary vote on something so complex and important. I suspect we would have ended up with EEA as a good compromise, which of course is not what the headbangers want, so they essentially conned the British electorate.

    Too late now though, and in case you are wondering I am not in favour of rejoin.
    Yes but Leave did not win because 52% wanted slightly more control of widget making from the EFTA court rather than ECJ and a few fishermen wanted to leave the CFP (which is the only difference between the EU and EEA for us given we were not in the Eurozone anyway).

    No, Leave only got 52% in part because the Leave campaign promised to end EU free movement and replace it with a points system, thus getting redwall voters out to vote Leave.

    If Leave had just campaigned on EEA I suspect Remain would have won as redwallers would not have bothered to vote.

  • Omnium said:

    And haven't deserved one either.

    I think Boris is going to survive this. He's going to have to do something Houdini-like to get the Tories back on track though.
    Problem for him is that the less interested in politics electorate sometimes take a while to catch up with someone being a waste of space. It took them a while with Corbyn. Once they get there, there is no going back. I think Labour would have loved it if he had resigned, but he is currently an asset to them staying, so it is a win-win for them.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 44,617
    edited January 2022

    Unless I am wrong the head honcho (is that OK?) of a Scots clan (itself a 19th C invention, at least in part) is described as a Chief.
    Chief of the Clan Mackay or something like that. How would the chap (or chapess) have been described in the 16th C?

    And I agree with Mr Go Away; my ancestors, like others in these islands appear to be a mixture of Celt and Saxon, and three of my grandchildren have mixed British Isles/Thai and possibly Cambodian heritage.
    Clans certainly were not C19 inventions - my Scots professional historian friends are most unimpressed with this theory that all tartan came into being thanks to Wattie Scott. It would certainly surprise anyone who was involve din the '15 and '45, for a start. But anyway. 'Clan Chieftain' is a usual term, at least in Scotland, or simply The MacWhosoever if naming only one; the Gaelic usage is more idiomatic, bit IANAE. Edit: but one does get clan 'Chiefs' too. No idea about the Welsh or Cornwelsh.
  • This was not my view, and while I am probably as biased as you (in opposite direction) I did follow it pretty closely. This issue was largely left ambiguous by Leave, and quite deliberately. If a hard Brexit had been offered it would have scared the horses. Many people thought we would end up with an EEA solution, and I suspect had the Leave campaign been more explicit they might have lost. . If Cameron hadn't been so arrogant, the sensible thing would have been to have given three options: Hard Brexit (like we ended up with) EEA or status quo/remain with a single transferable vote for those who wish to use it. There then should have been a confirmatory vote to confirm the final deal. It was absolutely dumb to have had a binary vote on something so complex and important. I suspect we would have ended up with EEA as a good compromise, which of course is not what the headbangers want, so they essentially conned the British electorate.

    Too late now though, and in case you are wondering I am not in favour of rejoin.
    I was not of a firm opinion and was genuinely undecided how to vote for in the campaign, only deciding in the final days to vote Leave. At the start of the campaign I was backing Remain.

    I don't recall the term "hard Brexit" or "soft Brexit" being discussed during the referendum, quite the opposite.

    The Leave campaign made a few promises which are still visible on the Vote Leave website: to leave the ECJ, regain control of laws and trade and migration, and to have a free trade agreement outside of the Single Market.

    As far as I can tell every single one of those promises has been fulfilled, so I'm not seeing how anyone was hoodwinked.

    PS the binary yes/no on leaving the Single Market was from memldy asked by Andrew Neil during his series of interviews. He also compiled those answers and used them on the Daily Politics afterwards.
This discussion has been closed.