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There’s no need for a LAB-LD pact or progressive alliance – politicalbetting.com

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  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,829
    Carnyx said:

    ydoethur said:

    I've been repeatedly asked by my friends if I wrote the latest series of Boris Johnson Worzel Gummidge.

    The latest episode of the BBC’s new Worzel Gummidge sees actors deliver a range of hidden jokes for watching adults, incorporating the naughtiest-sounding bird names they could find.

    Red faces as new BBC Worzel Gummidge episode ‘littered’ with sexual innuendos...

    ....Viewers remarked on the unusual frequency of bird names, including the “red-knobbed coot”, “blue-footed booby” and “penduline tit”.


    https://twitter.com/Telegraph/status/1476280493150810112

    Isn't there are series of innocent looking children's books that's full of truly obscene double meanings? Such as 'Who will help Jack off the horse?' and 'Brenda's Beaver Plays A Round?'
    Brenda's Beaver Needs A Barber is hilarious! 😂
    Oh, it really does exist, I find:

    https://www.amazon.co.uk/Brendas-Beaver-Needs-Barber-Books-Season-ebook/dp/B06XWXM52P/ref=sr_1_1?crid=2GR96DIMX1HBD&keywords=Brenda's+Beaver+Needs+a+Barber&qid=1640808525&s=books&sprefix=brenda+s+beaver+needs+a+barber,stripbooks,74&sr=1-1
    Hmm. Just noticed the titles of the other books.

    https://www.amazon.co.uk/Bimisi-Tayanita/e/B08PCT2ZG4?ref=dbs_m_mng_rwt_byln
  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 8,163
    edited December 2021

    See you in ICU Nige!!! :smiley:

    Although I wont be with you, as I will be taking the 4th booster.

    Will that be the booster that infects you with alien-reptile DNA that will reprogram your inner operating system so that you can connect yourself to the new version of the Matrix in which Donald Qanon is President-for-life?
  • EndillionEndillion Posts: 4,976

    https://twitter.com/FraserNelson/status/1476274810552471560

    Patients in English hospitals now over 10,000, but still tracking bottom range of Sage scenarios

    So Sage were right

    Lol. The whole point of the Sage modelling is it encompasses all possible futures. If the reality was outside the ranges they'd quoted, that would be a much bigger story - it would invalidate their modelling almost single-handedly - and the fact that it's inside means almost nothing. The key point is that it's at the bottom of the range, which means that we're fine: if it was tracking the top of the range (and remember, the ranges were absolutely massive), then we would indeed be in trouble.
  • https://twitter.com/kallmemeg/status/1476279510161051650

    Realise I’m being a Debbie Downer tonight but just one more note…

    NHS England have not reported hospital deaths since 24 December so the data is incomplete. They report the backlog tomorrow.

    Expect a big number.

    {and ideally use specimen date}
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,859
    ydoethur said:

    I don't agree with Topping's mountaineering comparison. It's crass.

    However, there are aspects to this that might confuse. There are 'good' mountaineers/hikers/walkers/climbers: people who go up with the correct equipment, judging the conditions, and come unstuck due to a simple mistake or bad luck, such as weather.

    Then there are 'mountaineers' (really, people who go up mountains) who wear the wrong kit, don't look at the weather, and carry no equipment to help them. I've seen loads like this, like a couple of people in loafers near the top of Scafell Pike, or jeans and no pack in cold mist on Kinder Scout.

    I have much more sympathy with the former than the latter.

    Many years ago while I was in Aber, I had gone out early one morning to photograph the scenery after a heavy overnight fall of snow.

    Coming back down Constie (the big cliff at the north end with the funicular) in proper mountain boots with thick, grippy rubber soles, very gingerly, I met a couple of younger students walking up. The girl was in high heels. She had no grip at all.

    I managed to keep calm and persuaded them to turn around, but my goodness, I was hiding being very angry.
    You get that a lot in the Alps in the summer. Typically a couple who have gone up the cable car ‘just to look at the view’ and then decided to wander off along some mountain path.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277

    We are in big trouble I am afraid.

    You keep saying this, is there any chance of you elaborating? What scenario do you envisage for the UK, Europe, the world?


    Genuine question. Just coming on here and saying "Oo-er" is not especially enlightening

    And yes I know I do it all the time but at least I endeavour to entertain, mostly
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,582

    We have a powerful weapon to fight inflation: price controls. It’s time we use it
    https://www.theguardian.com/business/commentisfree/2021/dec/29/inflation-price-controls-time-we-use-it

    Deary me...we have had the American advisers to US government saying inflation has been solved like Brown said Boom and Bust, now we can solve this problem of inflation with government price controls.

    If you want to see what happens with price controls, look to the energy price caps which are about to get doubled - with all the blame going to the government, rather than to Putin and his band of merry men choking the gas supply.
  • EndillionEndillion Posts: 4,976
    IshmaelZ said:

    Endillion said:

    Endillion said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    ydoethur said:

    eek said:

    ydoethur said:

    eek said:

    Carnyx said:

    dixiedean said:

    eek said:

    As we are discussing stupid things have we covered Oklahoma trying to use the Texas abortion fines to remove books from Oklahoma schools

    https://thehill.com/changing-america/respect/diversity-inclusion/587517-oklahoma-lawmaker-introduces-book-banning-bill

    I'm so looking forward to the removal of every book from every school and watching the teachers try and teach from nothing.

    Unsurprisingly. Banning books gives them a certain cachet amongst young people.

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/education/2021/dec/23/us-book-bans-conservative-parents-reading
    Local bookseller on a book which wasn't even in the school library (except as an ebook):

    '“It was not easy to find a box full of 33 Snowfish, but we did,” he continues. “We sold all that we bought, and we kept a couple as loaners because we wanted to make sure any students in the community could see what the fuss was about. There will always be some around.”

    It’s now easier than ever to read 33 Snowfish in Spotsylvania county [...]'
    Oh it's publicity gold to an author when their book is banned - it wouldn't surprise me if agents sought to get their author's books banned just for the publicity it generates.
    When The Well of Loneliness was banned, Virginia Wolff and Compton Mackenzie were furious that Orlando and Extraordinary Women were not banned at the same time. They felt cheated out of the extra sales a court case would produce.

    Oddly, Lady Chatterley's Lover was banned at the same time, and not republished for 30 years. And when it was finally published in 1959 the trial caused sales to rocket. Huge numbers of copies were being passed round schools in the hope that they would find the naughty bits.

    The key thing linking them of course is that they were all otherwise notably undistinguished books.
    See also the Satanic Verses which I've found unreadable both times I've attempted to start it.
    The most comical one I worked on was Ulysses, which escaped a formal ban because the lawyer assessing it at the request of the Home Office admitted he had been totally unable to read it. Instead, they launched proceedings under various post office regulations as far as can be judged simply to annoy James Joyce.

    Quite amazingly, there is a record of an American magistrate who had somehow read and understood it.
    I didn't realise one was supposed to actually understand it. I thought Ulysses was simply a collection of words in a semi-random order that existed to test the patience of the reader.

    I made it about six pages in.
    It is the only novel I have read twice

    Tho I confess I couldn't get past the third paragraph of Finnegan's Wake
    When I'm sitting in an airport lounge, sleep deprived, unsure what time of day or night it is, then I find rereading novels is a perfect way to pass the time.
    A very religious uni friend said something about the bible. He had read it many times, and at times of stress, or boredom, he would pick up a bible and read it: it relaxed him, and the familiarity of the text was like talking to a friend and time would fly.

    He also said that reading a different version of the bible was rather jarring, as he noticed the differences.
    He presumably means a different English translation, rather than a different version.
    Not being religious, I assumed 'version' equated to 'translation'?

    I.e. the King James bible is a translation, but also a version?
    If you only read it in English, then yes, it's a distinction without a difference. My point was that the reason why you have so many English "versions", and why there are differences between them big enough to feel jarring, is that it's an English translation of a (Latin translation of a) Greek translation of the originals in either Aramaic or Hebrew. The original untranslated versions are all mostly close enough together that you can read different versions without the jarring feeling.
    Absolute utter and unqualified balls, every book of the New Testament was originally written in koine Greek.
    He said the Bible, not the New Testament. If he'd said the NT, I would agree with you.

    Also, chill the heck out.
  • Leon said:

    We are in big trouble I am afraid.

    You keep saying this, is there any chance of you elaborating? What scenario do you envisage for the UK, Europe, the world?


    Genuine question. Just coming on here and saying "Oo-er" is not especially enlightening

    And yes I know I do it all the time but at least I endeavour to entertain, mostly
    I posted a lot earlier Leon.

    I think with the large number of cases, mutations are likely which could evade vaccines and/or be more dangerous as we saw with delta.

    The people in hospital is going one way: up.

    I think we're in trouble. I still hope I am wrong but I am no longer unworried as I was a few days ago.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,829
    Almost the right word:

    "Visitors to the former home of Bloomsbury artist Vanessa Bell, Virginia Woolf's sister, had complained for years about the potholes. One warned in a review: 'You risk your car's suspension – and you need to wear a sports bra.'"

    Yet using emergency funding for private property - it's like the potato famine walls in the Western Islands.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,148
    ydoethur said:

    I love the way my use of 'version' rather than 'translation' about the bible has led to a heated discussion.

    After which I am none the wiser! Even if I used the wrong word, I think everyone knew what I meant .. :)

    I would say you used the right word, actually. The different translations of the Bible are called 'versions.' It's just that they differ in more than the words used, because of the different materials they use for that translation. Which is not as widely appreciated as perhaps it should be.

    There is a reason why traditionally clergy were supposed to know Greek and Hebrew - so that issue wouldn't affect them.
    Also differ in the audiences.

    Crudely, say the difference between a children's bible, one designed for elementary speakers of English, and one aimed at being a literal translation not a paraphrase.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,991
    edited December 2021
    Sandpit said:

    We have a powerful weapon to fight inflation: price controls. It’s time we use it
    https://www.theguardian.com/business/commentisfree/2021/dec/29/inflation-price-controls-time-we-use-it

    Deary me...we have had the American advisers to US government saying inflation has been solved like Brown said Boom and Bust, now we can solve this problem of inflation with government price controls.

    If you want to see what happens with price controls, look to the energy price caps which are about to get doubled - with all the blame going to the government, rather than to Putin and his band of merry men choking the gas supply.
    I posted on here 6+ months ago about how concerned I was hearing one of Biden's big economic advisors saying yes we are going to print a load of money, we aren't too worried about if we don't target it that accurately, it will all work out in the end as inflation has been solved in Western economies.....
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,153
    Leon said:

    TOPPING said:

    eek said:

    TOPPING said:

    Is everyone worried that anti vaxxers will put pressure on the NHS thus locking everyone down.

    @JosiasJessop called them murderous bastards. Who are they murdering.

    Themselves - and anyone else who dies because ICU beds are taken / blocked by anti-vaxxers who would otherwise have not been so seriously ill.
    Slippery slope. What about Mountaineers.
    When was the last date the ICU was filled with thousands of Mountaineers?

    I'll wait for an answer.
    Yes, it is a ridiculous and asinine comparison, and I'm surprised Topping is making it. He is rarely this dim

    To invoke mountaineers you'd have to hypothesise a cerebral virus which was forcing people of all ages and sizes to do dangerous sports: causing millions of them to climb mountains, ski glaciers, abseil cliffs, try base jumping, do underwater caving etc, and in the face of this wave if risk taking the government has invented and distributed remarkably effective and FREELY AVAIILABLE new sports equipment - kit that keeps 95% of the users of the equipment out of danger, and out of hospital. Thus saving the health system from collapse

    All, that is, except for the mountaineers who continue to insist on going mountaineering without the amazing new equipment because of "civil liberties" "I like the thrill" etc etc thus thousands of mountaineers are now filling the hospitals with their injuries and broken skulls and people with other ordinary illnesses are dying for lack of hospital care. Thanks to the fucking mountaineers

    In THAT case it would be judicious to punish the mountaineers, make their lives much harder, maybe even refuse them treatment, until they use the fantastic new dangerous sports kit freely provided to all
    Bravo.
  • We have new results on T cell responses to #Omicron, and its good news!
    Paper submitted for peer review & preprint:
    medrxiv.org/content/10.110…

    📢TL;DR: Most of your T cell responses from vaccination or previous infection still recognise Omicron.
    #Getvaccinated #GetthoseTcellsnow

    https://twitter.com/virusmonologues/status/1476221647417921536
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,829
    IanB2 said:

    ydoethur said:

    I don't agree with Topping's mountaineering comparison. It's crass.

    However, there are aspects to this that might confuse. There are 'good' mountaineers/hikers/walkers/climbers: people who go up with the correct equipment, judging the conditions, and come unstuck due to a simple mistake or bad luck, such as weather.

    Then there are 'mountaineers' (really, people who go up mountains) who wear the wrong kit, don't look at the weather, and carry no equipment to help them. I've seen loads like this, like a couple of people in loafers near the top of Scafell Pike, or jeans and no pack in cold mist on Kinder Scout.

    I have much more sympathy with the former than the latter.

    Many years ago while I was in Aber, I had gone out early one morning to photograph the scenery after a heavy overnight fall of snow.

    Coming back down Constie (the big cliff at the north end with the funicular) in proper mountain boots with thick, grippy rubber soles, very gingerly, I met a couple of younger students walking up. The girl was in high heels. She had no grip at all.

    I managed to keep calm and persuaded them to turn around, but my goodness, I was hiding being very angry.
    You get that a lot in the Alps in the summer. Typically a couple who have gone up the cable car ‘just to look at the view’ and then decided to wander off along some mountain path.
    One very snowy day a friend of mine met an ill-equipped and lost pair in the Lairig Ghru [trhough valley in the Cairngorm Hills]. He took them down to safety - at the cost of going well out of his way. But ...
  • EndillionEndillion Posts: 4,976
    ydoethur said:

    I love the way my use of 'version' rather than 'translation' about the bible has led to a heated discussion.

    After which I am none the wiser! Even if I used the wrong word, I think everyone knew what I meant .. :)

    I would say you used the right word, actually. The different translations of the Bible are called 'versions.' It's just that they differ in more than the words used, because of the different materials they use for that translation. Which is not as widely appreciated as perhaps it should be.

    There is a reason why traditionally clergy were supposed to know Greek and Hebrew - so that issue wouldn't affect them.
    This is mostly my fault, and I'm happy to agree that it isn't a particularly important difference in the grand scheme of things. However, I don't think it's just about the different underlying texts being used, simply because translation is not an exact science - there are a large number of Old Testament translations around which are translated directly from the Hebrew, and there are significant differences between them in English.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Endillion said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    ydoethur said:

    eek said:

    ydoethur said:

    eek said:

    Carnyx said:

    dixiedean said:

    eek said:

    As we are discussing stupid things have we covered Oklahoma trying to use the Texas abortion fines to remove books from Oklahoma schools

    https://thehill.com/changing-america/respect/diversity-inclusion/587517-oklahoma-lawmaker-introduces-book-banning-bill

    I'm so looking forward to the removal of every book from every school and watching the teachers try and teach from nothing.

    Unsurprisingly. Banning books gives them a certain cachet amongst young people.

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/education/2021/dec/23/us-book-bans-conservative-parents-reading
    Local bookseller on a book which wasn't even in the school library (except as an ebook):

    '“It was not easy to find a box full of 33 Snowfish, but we did,” he continues. “We sold all that we bought, and we kept a couple as loaners because we wanted to make sure any students in the community could see what the fuss was about. There will always be some around.”

    It’s now easier than ever to read 33 Snowfish in Spotsylvania county [...]'
    Oh it's publicity gold to an author when their book is banned - it wouldn't surprise me if agents sought to get their author's books banned just for the publicity it generates.
    When The Well of Loneliness was banned, Virginia Wolff and Compton Mackenzie were furious that Orlando and Extraordinary Women were not banned at the same time. They felt cheated out of the extra sales a court case would produce.

    Oddly, Lady Chatterley's Lover was banned at the same time, and not republished for 30 years. And when it was finally published in 1959 the trial caused sales to rocket. Huge numbers of copies were being passed round schools in the hope that they would find the naughty bits.

    The key thing linking them of course is that they were all otherwise notably undistinguished books.
    See also the Satanic Verses which I've found unreadable both times I've attempted to start it.
    The most comical one I worked on was Ulysses, which escaped a formal ban because the lawyer assessing it at the request of the Home Office admitted he had been totally unable to read it. Instead, they launched proceedings under various post office regulations as far as can be judged simply to annoy James Joyce.

    Quite amazingly, there is a record of an American magistrate who had somehow read and understood it.
    I didn't realise one was supposed to actually understand it. I thought Ulysses was simply a collection of words in a semi-random order that existed to test the patience of the reader.

    I made it about six pages in.
    It is the only novel I have read twice

    Tho I confess I couldn't get past the third paragraph of Finnegan's Wake
    When I'm sitting in an airport lounge, sleep deprived, unsure what time of day or night it is, then I find rereading novels is a perfect way to pass the time.
    A very religious uni friend said something about the bible. He had read it many times, and at times of stress, or boredom, he would pick up a bible and read it: it relaxed him, and the familiarity of the text was like talking to a friend and time would fly.

    He also said that reading a different version of the bible was rather jarring, as he noticed the differences.
    He presumably means a different English translation, rather than a different version.
    I don’t know… I rather enjoy the Treacle Bible
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,926

    We have new results on T cell responses to #Omicron, and its good news!
    Paper submitted for peer review & preprint:
    medrxiv.org/content/10.110…

    📢TL;DR: Most of your T cell responses from vaccination or previous infection still recognise Omicron.
    #Getvaccinated #GetthoseTcellsnow

    https://twitter.com/virusmonologues/status/1476221647417921536

    So, about that imperial study...
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,373
    MattW said:

    ydoethur said:

    I love the way my use of 'version' rather than 'translation' about the bible has led to a heated discussion.

    After which I am none the wiser! Even if I used the wrong word, I think everyone knew what I meant .. :)

    I would say you used the right word, actually. The different translations of the Bible are called 'versions.' It's just that they differ in more than the words used, because of the different materials they use for that translation. Which is not as widely appreciated as perhaps it should be.

    There is a reason why traditionally clergy were supposed to know Greek and Hebrew - so that issue wouldn't affect them.
    Also differ in the audiences.

    Crudely, say the difference between a children's bible, one designed for elementary speakers of English, and one aimed at being a literal translation not a paraphrase.
    I'm always wary of those books that claim to be 'literal translations.' For example, I believe you can literally translate German, as it is a very literal language, but nobody who is not actually unhinged would try to 'literally' translate Welsh into English as it is so idiomatic it would come out as meaningless drivel.

    To the credit of the NIV, they make it clear from the start that they didn't try a 'literal' translation: rather, they went to enormous efforts to ensure what they had written as far as possible accurately reflected the meaning of the original.
  • RobD said:

    We have new results on T cell responses to #Omicron, and its good news!
    Paper submitted for peer review & preprint:
    medrxiv.org/content/10.110…

    📢TL;DR: Most of your T cell responses from vaccination or previous infection still recognise Omicron.
    #Getvaccinated #GetthoseTcellsnow

    https://twitter.com/virusmonologues/status/1476221647417921536

    So, about that imperial study...
    It doesn't say anything yet amount waning immunity going forward but I agree this is a step in the right direction.
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,826

    Leon said:

    We are in big trouble I am afraid.

    You keep saying this, is there any chance of you elaborating? What scenario do you envisage for the UK, Europe, the world?


    Genuine question. Just coming on here and saying "Oo-er" is not especially enlightening

    And yes I know I do it all the time but at least I endeavour to entertain, mostly
    I posted a lot earlier Leon.

    I think with the large number of cases, mutations are likely which could evade vaccines and/or be more dangerous as we saw with delta.

    The people in hospital is going one way: up.

    I think we're in trouble. I still hope I am wrong but I am no longer unworried as I was a few days ago.
    Forgive me but there are a lot of other pathogens out there that could evolve into something scary.
  • Taking back control never felt so good but this is casus belli isn't it?

    URGENT UPDATE FOR BRITISH RESIDENTS IN EU: Following a French Government decision, on 28/12/2021, unless they hold French residency, British citizens are now considered 3rd country citizens and can no longer transit France by road to reach their country of residence in the EU.

    https://twitter.com/LeShuttle/status/1476245791027179524
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,373
    Endillion said:

    ydoethur said:

    I love the way my use of 'version' rather than 'translation' about the bible has led to a heated discussion.

    After which I am none the wiser! Even if I used the wrong word, I think everyone knew what I meant .. :)

    I would say you used the right word, actually. The different translations of the Bible are called 'versions.' It's just that they differ in more than the words used, because of the different materials they use for that translation. Which is not as widely appreciated as perhaps it should be.

    There is a reason why traditionally clergy were supposed to know Greek and Hebrew - so that issue wouldn't affect them.
    This is mostly my fault, and I'm happy to agree that it isn't a particularly important difference in the grand scheme of things. However, I don't think it's just about the different underlying texts being used, simply because translation is not an exact science - there are a large number of Old Testament translations around which are translated directly from the Hebrew, and there are significant differences between them in English.
    Yes, I would agree with you there, for the reason I give above. There are just other reasons for major textual differences as well, which I thought was important to make clearer.

    Between us we seem to have thoroughly confused poor old @JosiasJessop though, for which I hope he will forgive us.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277

    Leon said:

    We are in big trouble I am afraid.

    You keep saying this, is there any chance of you elaborating? What scenario do you envisage for the UK, Europe, the world?


    Genuine question. Just coming on here and saying "Oo-er" is not especially enlightening

    And yes I know I do it all the time but at least I endeavour to entertain, mostly
    I posted a lot earlier Leon.

    I think with the large number of cases, mutations are likely which could evade vaccines and/or be more dangerous as we saw with delta.

    The people in hospital is going one way: up.

    I think we're in trouble. I still hope I am wrong but I am no longer unworried as I was a few days ago.
    Yes, that is possible. On the other hand it looks like Omicron rises and falls steeply and quickly

    Like many of us - you too, it seems - I veer between optimism and pessimism, but for the last week or so I have been very mildly optimistic (which is quite a long time for me)

    I believe the virus is now, painfully, evolving into something less severe but still horribly infectious (and dangerous, if we get a new variant); perhaps more importantly, human society is adjusting. We are Learning to Live With It. Very few countries are now in total hard lockdown, unlike last winter

    It is still fucking shit, and we have more shit to get through, but there is now a hint of a map showing the way out
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,991
    edited December 2021

    Taking back control never felt so good but this is casus belli isn't it?

    URGENT UPDATE FOR BRITISH RESIDENTS IN EU: Following a French Government decision, on 28/12/2021, unless they hold French residency, British citizens are now considered 3rd country citizens and can no longer transit France by road to reach their country of residence in the EU.

    https://twitter.com/LeShuttle/status/1476245791027179524

    I have a sense Macron would still be doing this kind of nonsense even if we were still in the EU.....blaming the roast beef is Macron go to criticism.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,572
    Leon said:

    TOPPING said:

    eek said:

    TOPPING said:

    Is everyone worried that anti vaxxers will put pressure on the NHS thus locking everyone down.

    @JosiasJessop called them murderous bastards. Who are they murdering.

    Themselves - and anyone else who dies because ICU beds are taken / blocked by anti-vaxxers who would otherwise have not been so seriously ill.
    Slippery slope. What about Mountaineers.
    When was the last date the ICU was filled with thousands of Mountaineers?

    I'll wait for an answer.
    Yes, it is a ridiculous and asinine comparison, and I'm surprised Topping is making it. He is rarely this dim

    To invoke mountaineers you'd have to hypothesise a cerebral virus which was forcing people of all ages and sizes to do dangerous sports: causing millions of them to climb mountains, ski glaciers, abseil cliffs, try base jumping, do underwater caving etc, and in the face of this wave if risk taking the government has invented and distributed remarkably effective and FREELY AVAIILABLE new sports equipment - kit that keeps 95% of the users of the equipment out of danger, and out of hospital. Thus saving the health system from collapse

    All, that is, except for the mountaineers who continue to insist on going mountaineering without the amazing new equipment because of "civil liberties" "I like the thrill" etc etc thus thousands of mountaineers are now filling the hospitals with their injuries and broken skulls and people with other ordinary illnesses are dying for lack of hospital care. Thanks to the fucking mountaineers

    In THAT case it would be judicious to punish the mountaineers, make their lives much harder, maybe even refuse them treatment, until they use the fantastic new dangerous sports kit freely provided to all
    A couple of decades ago, a wonderful new piece of tech came along that promised to help people in trouble out on the hills. They were Personal Locator Beacons, which, if activated, send your location to a satellite and call emergency services.

    They are used heavily by skiers. Except they were banned in the UK.

    Fortunately the ban was overturned in 2012. If I was to do another long and remote walk, I'd get one.

    https://www.go4awalk.com/the-bunkhouse/walking-news-and-discussions/walking-news-and-discussions.php?news=710223
    https://www.grough.co.uk/magazine/2008/01/21/should-we-be-able-to-use-distress-beacons-in-britains-hills
  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 7,172
    Carnyx said:

    Almost the right word:

    "Visitors to the former home of Bloomsbury artist Vanessa Bell, Virginia Woolf's sister, had complained for years about the potholes. One warned in a review: 'You risk your car's suspension – and you need to wear a sports bra.'"

    Yet using emergency funding for private property - it's like the potato famine walls in the Western Islands.
    Surely, the Mail has missed an angle here.

    The people visiting Vanessa Bell/Duncan Grant's house are the very definition of the Anti-Mail.

    Hampstead metrosexuals, who fear for the underwiring on their bras, as they travel on the bumpy road.

    (I've been, it is rather lovely if you like Bloomsbury -- as I did when I was 12).
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,926

    RobD said:

    We have new results on T cell responses to #Omicron, and its good news!
    Paper submitted for peer review & preprint:
    medrxiv.org/content/10.110…

    📢TL;DR: Most of your T cell responses from vaccination or previous infection still recognise Omicron.
    #Getvaccinated #GetthoseTcellsnow

    https://twitter.com/virusmonologues/status/1476221647417921536

    So, about that imperial study...
    It doesn't say anything yet amount waning immunity going forward but I agree this is a step in the right direction.
    I had thought T-cell response normally lasts longer anyway, since they are part of the memory of the immune system.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,401
    See Nige is on the "Why oh why" warpath again.
    Specifically why do I need multiple vaccines against a cold?
    Cos if you're 6 months after a jab it's a heck of a lot more than a cold, as I know too well.
    Predicted this would happen.
    Also hearing employers wanting folk back at work pronto as it is "a mild cold".
    Predicted that too.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,572
    ydoethur said:

    Endillion said:

    ydoethur said:

    I love the way my use of 'version' rather than 'translation' about the bible has led to a heated discussion.

    After which I am none the wiser! Even if I used the wrong word, I think everyone knew what I meant .. :)

    I would say you used the right word, actually. The different translations of the Bible are called 'versions.' It's just that they differ in more than the words used, because of the different materials they use for that translation. Which is not as widely appreciated as perhaps it should be.

    There is a reason why traditionally clergy were supposed to know Greek and Hebrew - so that issue wouldn't affect them.
    This is mostly my fault, and I'm happy to agree that it isn't a particularly important difference in the grand scheme of things. However, I don't think it's just about the different underlying texts being used, simply because translation is not an exact science - there are a large number of Old Testament translations around which are translated directly from the Hebrew, and there are significant differences between them in English.
    Yes, I would agree with you there, for the reason I give above. There are just other reasons for major textual differences as well, which I thought was important to make clearer.

    Between us we seem to have thoroughly confused poor old @JosiasJessop though, for which I hope he will forgive us.
    I was a thoroughly peaceful and calm individual until I read the bible, after which I believe anyone committing the heinous sin of confusing me should BURN IN HADES forever. :)
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,405

    We have new results on T cell responses to #Omicron, and its good news!
    Paper submitted for peer review & preprint:
    medrxiv.org/content/10.110…

    📢TL;DR: Most of your T cell responses from vaccination or previous infection still recognise Omicron.
    #Getvaccinated #GetthoseTcellsnow

    https://twitter.com/virusmonologues/status/1476221647417921536

    Odd that, pretty sure that’s what I kept saying a few nights ago. Nice to have it confirmed. You gonna calm down a bit now?
  • We have new results on T cell responses to #Omicron, and its good news!
    Paper submitted for peer review & preprint:
    medrxiv.org/content/10.110…

    📢TL;DR: Most of your T cell responses from vaccination or previous infection still recognise Omicron.
    #Getvaccinated #GetthoseTcellsnow

    https://twitter.com/virusmonologues/status/1476221647417921536

    Odd that, pretty sure that’s what I kept saying a few nights ago. Nice to have it confirmed. You gonna calm down a bit now?
    I am still concerned about mutations and waning immunity but I agree this is a step in the right direction
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,633

    Leon said:

    We are in big trouble I am afraid.

    You keep saying this, is there any chance of you elaborating? What scenario do you envisage for the UK, Europe, the world?


    Genuine question. Just coming on here and saying "Oo-er" is not especially enlightening

    And yes I know I do it all the time but at least I endeavour to entertain, mostly
    I posted a lot earlier Leon.

    I think with the large number of cases, mutations are likely which could evade vaccines and/or be more dangerous as we saw with delta.

    The people in hospital is going one way: up.

    I think we're in trouble. I still hope I am wrong but I am no longer unworried as I was a few days ago.
    My hospital has installed a fixed multi-user holding ambulance to help unload. There were 25 ambulances on the forecourt tonight as I walked out. It looks pretty grim in terms of capacity.
  • ydoethur said:

    MattW said:

    ydoethur said:

    I love the way my use of 'version' rather than 'translation' about the bible has led to a heated discussion.

    After which I am none the wiser! Even if I used the wrong word, I think everyone knew what I meant .. :)

    I would say you used the right word, actually. The different translations of the Bible are called 'versions.' It's just that they differ in more than the words used, because of the different materials they use for that translation. Which is not as widely appreciated as perhaps it should be.

    There is a reason why traditionally clergy were supposed to know Greek and Hebrew - so that issue wouldn't affect them.
    Also differ in the audiences.

    Crudely, say the difference between a children's bible, one designed for elementary speakers of English, and one aimed at being a literal translation not a paraphrase.
    I'm always wary of those books that claim to be 'literal translations.' For example, I believe you can literally translate German, as it is a very literal language, but nobody who is not actually unhinged would try to 'literally' translate Welsh into English as it is so idiomatic it would come out as meaningless drivel.

    To the credit of the NIV, they make it clear from the start that they didn't try a 'literal' translation: rather, they went to enormous efforts to ensure what they had written as far as possible accurately reflected the meaning of the original.
    Da liegt der Hund begraben.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,373

    ydoethur said:

    Endillion said:

    ydoethur said:

    I love the way my use of 'version' rather than 'translation' about the bible has led to a heated discussion.

    After which I am none the wiser! Even if I used the wrong word, I think everyone knew what I meant .. :)

    I would say you used the right word, actually. The different translations of the Bible are called 'versions.' It's just that they differ in more than the words used, because of the different materials they use for that translation. Which is not as widely appreciated as perhaps it should be.

    There is a reason why traditionally clergy were supposed to know Greek and Hebrew - so that issue wouldn't affect them.
    This is mostly my fault, and I'm happy to agree that it isn't a particularly important difference in the grand scheme of things. However, I don't think it's just about the different underlying texts being used, simply because translation is not an exact science - there are a large number of Old Testament translations around which are translated directly from the Hebrew, and there are significant differences between them in English.
    Yes, I would agree with you there, for the reason I give above. There are just other reasons for major textual differences as well, which I thought was important to make clearer.

    Between us we seem to have thoroughly confused poor old @JosiasJessop though, for which I hope he will forgive us.
    I was a thoroughly peaceful and calm individual until I read the bible, after which I believe anyone committing the heinous sin of confusing me should BURN IN HADES forever. :)
    Really? That's surprising, given Hades is Greek idea and in any case nothing to do with burning AFAICR.

    The idea of hell and burning is chiefly from the Book of Revelation, and it was for a thousand ages rather than for ever.
  • Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    We are in big trouble I am afraid.

    You keep saying this, is there any chance of you elaborating? What scenario do you envisage for the UK, Europe, the world?


    Genuine question. Just coming on here and saying "Oo-er" is not especially enlightening

    And yes I know I do it all the time but at least I endeavour to entertain, mostly
    I posted a lot earlier Leon.

    I think with the large number of cases, mutations are likely which could evade vaccines and/or be more dangerous as we saw with delta.

    The people in hospital is going one way: up.

    I think we're in trouble. I still hope I am wrong but I am no longer unworried as I was a few days ago.
    My hospital has installed a fixed multi-user holding ambulance to help unload. There were 25 ambulances on the forecourt tonight as I walked out. It looks pretty grim in terms of capacity.
    Thanks Foxy. But am sorry to hear this as this does not sound good at all.

    Thoughts from the parish?
  • New York state reports 67,090 new coronavirus cases, the biggest one-day increase on record, including 39,591 in New York City
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,859
    edited December 2021

    Taking back control never felt so good but this is casus belli isn't it?

    URGENT UPDATE FOR BRITISH RESIDENTS IN EU: Following a French Government decision, on 28/12/2021, unless they hold French residency, British citizens are now considered 3rd country citizens and can no longer transit France by road to reach their country of residence in the EU.

    https://twitter.com/LeShuttle/status/1476245791027179524

    I suspect it reflects the number of Brits driving through France to holiday homes in Spain, and who have Spanish residency (as some friends of mine do), to visit for the holiday period or the winter. It’s hard to argue that’s essential travel so, if the intention is to prevent non-essential travel, it’s hard to argue with (you can of course argue that the restrictions themselves are pointless - but then so have been most of ours).
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,572
    edited December 2021
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Endillion said:

    ydoethur said:

    I love the way my use of 'version' rather than 'translation' about the bible has led to a heated discussion.

    After which I am none the wiser! Even if I used the wrong word, I think everyone knew what I meant .. :)

    I would say you used the right word, actually. The different translations of the Bible are called 'versions.' It's just that they differ in more than the words used, because of the different materials they use for that translation. Which is not as widely appreciated as perhaps it should be.

    There is a reason why traditionally clergy were supposed to know Greek and Hebrew - so that issue wouldn't affect them.
    This is mostly my fault, and I'm happy to agree that it isn't a particularly important difference in the grand scheme of things. However, I don't think it's just about the different underlying texts being used, simply because translation is not an exact science - there are a large number of Old Testament translations around which are translated directly from the Hebrew, and there are significant differences between them in English.
    Yes, I would agree with you there, for the reason I give above. There are just other reasons for major textual differences as well, which I thought was important to make clearer.

    Between us we seem to have thoroughly confused poor old @JosiasJessop though, for which I hope he will forgive us.
    I was a thoroughly peaceful and calm individual until I read the bible, after which I believe anyone committing the heinous sin of confusing me should BURN IN HADES forever. :)
    Really? That's surprising, given Hades is Greek idea and in any case nothing to do with burning AFAICR.

    The idea of hell and burning is chiefly from the Book of Revelation, and it was for a thousand ages rather than for ever.
    Hey, I didn't say I remembered what I read ...

    It was as boring as f***. I didn't connect with it at all, but I was at uni, not sleeping well, and I'd read everything else.

    The Quran frightened me, which is why I only read half of it.

    Edit: or I could just say I was reading the Jessop translation of the bible, which clearly states 'Hades' and 'forever' ... ;)
  • .
    ydoethur said:

    MattW said:

    ydoethur said:

    I love the way my use of 'version' rather than 'translation' about the bible has led to a heated discussion.

    After which I am none the wiser! Even if I used the wrong word, I think everyone knew what I meant .. :)

    I would say you used the right word, actually. The different translations of the Bible are called 'versions.' It's just that they differ in more than the words used, because of the different materials they use for that translation. Which is not as widely appreciated as perhaps it should be.

    There is a reason why traditionally clergy were supposed to know Greek and Hebrew - so that issue wouldn't affect them.
    Also differ in the audiences.

    Crudely, say the difference between a children's bible, one designed for elementary speakers of English, and one aimed at being a literal translation not a paraphrase.
    I'm always wary of those books that claim to be 'literal translations.' For example, I believe you can literally translate German, as it is a very literal language, but nobody who is not actually unhinged would try to 'literally' translate Welsh into English as it is so idiomatic it would come out as meaningless drivel.

    To the credit of the NIV, they make it clear from the start that they didn't try a 'literal' translation: rather, they went to enormous efforts to ensure what they had written as far as possible accurately reflected the meaning of the original.
    I am shocked, shocked that the German language is entirely literal.

    The interplay between languages, cultures and philosophy is very interesting.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    Carnyx said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Endillion said:

    Endillion said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    ydoethur said:

    eek said:

    ydoethur said:

    eek said:

    Carnyx said:

    dixiedean said:

    eek said:

    As we are discussing stupid things have we covered Oklahoma trying to use the Texas abortion fines to remove books from Oklahoma schools

    https://thehill.com/changing-america/respect/diversity-inclusion/587517-oklahoma-lawmaker-introduces-book-banning-bill

    I'm so looking forward to the removal of every book from every school and watching the teachers try and teach from nothing.

    Unsurprisingly. Banning books gives them a certain cachet amongst young people.

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/education/2021/dec/23/us-book-bans-conservative-parents-reading
    Local bookseller on a book which wasn't even in the school library (except as an ebook):

    '“It was not easy to find a box full of 33 Snowfish, but we did,” he continues. “We sold all that we bought, and we kept a couple as loaners because we wanted to make sure any students in the community could see what the fuss was about. There will always be some around.”

    It’s now easier than ever to read 33 Snowfish in Spotsylvania county [...]'
    Oh it's publicity gold to an author when their book is banned - it wouldn't surprise me if agents sought to get their author's books banned just for the publicity it generates.
    When The Well of Loneliness was banned, Virginia Wolff and Compton Mackenzie were furious that Orlando and Extraordinary Women were not banned at the same time. They felt cheated out of the extra sales a court case would produce.

    Oddly, Lady Chatterley's Lover was banned at the same time, and not republished for 30 years. And when it was finally published in 1959 the trial caused sales to rocket. Huge numbers of copies were being passed round schools in the hope that they would find the naughty bits.

    The key thing linking them of course is that they were all otherwise notably undistinguished books.
    See also the Satanic Verses which I've found unreadable both times I've attempted to start it.
    The most comical one I worked on was Ulysses, which escaped a formal ban because the lawyer assessing it at the request of the Home Office admitted he had been totally unable to read it. Instead, they launched proceedings under various post office regulations as far as can be judged simply to annoy James Joyce.

    Quite amazingly, there is a record of an American magistrate who had somehow read and understood it.
    I didn't realise one was supposed to actually understand it. I thought Ulysses was simply a collection of words in a semi-random order that existed to test the patience of the reader.

    I made it about six pages in.
    It is the only novel I have read twice

    Tho I confess I couldn't get past the third paragraph of Finnegan's Wake
    When I'm sitting in an airport lounge, sleep deprived, unsure what time of day or night it is, then I find rereading novels is a perfect way to pass the time.
    A very religious uni friend said something about the bible. He had read it many times, and at times of stress, or boredom, he would pick up a bible and read it: it relaxed him, and the familiarity of the text was like talking to a friend and time would fly.

    He also said that reading a different version of the bible was rather jarring, as he noticed the differences.
    He presumably means a different English translation, rather than a different version.
    Not being religious, I assumed 'version' equated to 'translation'?

    I.e. the King James bible is a translation, but also a version?
    If you only read it in English, then yes, it's a distinction without a difference. My point was that the reason why you have so many English "versions", and why there are differences between them big enough to feel jarring, is that it's an English translation of a (Latin translation of a) Greek translation of the originals in either Aramaic or Hebrew. The original untranslated versions are all mostly close enough together that you can read different versions without the jarring feeling.
    Absolute utter and unqualified balls, every book of the New Testament was originally written in koine Greek.
    I do like the gentle tones of a quiet theological discussion in the grassy back lawns of the internet.
    Celtic and Rangers are Edinburgh's two principal cricket teams. This is that level of misinformation.
  • The same people that said Delta was nothing to worry about, are those that are saying Omicron is nothing to worry about.

    So is anyone who said Delta was nothing to worry about, going to stick their head up and say this is different
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,582

    Leon said:

    TOPPING said:

    eek said:

    TOPPING said:

    Is everyone worried that anti vaxxers will put pressure on the NHS thus locking everyone down.

    @JosiasJessop called them murderous bastards. Who are they murdering.

    Themselves - and anyone else who dies because ICU beds are taken / blocked by anti-vaxxers who would otherwise have not been so seriously ill.
    Slippery slope. What about Mountaineers.
    When was the last date the ICU was filled with thousands of Mountaineers?

    I'll wait for an answer.
    Yes, it is a ridiculous and asinine comparison, and I'm surprised Topping is making it. He is rarely this dim

    To invoke mountaineers you'd have to hypothesise a cerebral virus which was forcing people of all ages and sizes to do dangerous sports: causing millions of them to climb mountains, ski glaciers, abseil cliffs, try base jumping, do underwater caving etc, and in the face of this wave if risk taking the government has invented and distributed remarkably effective and FREELY AVAIILABLE new sports equipment - kit that keeps 95% of the users of the equipment out of danger, and out of hospital. Thus saving the health system from collapse

    All, that is, except for the mountaineers who continue to insist on going mountaineering without the amazing new equipment because of "civil liberties" "I like the thrill" etc etc thus thousands of mountaineers are now filling the hospitals with their injuries and broken skulls and people with other ordinary illnesses are dying for lack of hospital care. Thanks to the fucking mountaineers

    In THAT case it would be judicious to punish the mountaineers, make their lives much harder, maybe even refuse them treatment, until they use the fantastic new dangerous sports kit freely provided to all
    A couple of decades ago, a wonderful new piece of tech came along that promised to help people in trouble out on the hills. They were Personal Locator Beacons, which, if activated, send your location to a satellite and call emergency services.

    They are used heavily by skiers. Except they were banned in the UK.

    Fortunately the ban was overturned in 2012. If I was to do another long and remote walk, I'd get one.

    https://www.go4awalk.com/the-bunkhouse/walking-news-and-discussions/walking-news-and-discussions.php?news=710223
    https://www.grough.co.uk/magazine/2008/01/21/should-we-be-able-to-use-distress-beacons-in-britains-hills
    The aviation ELTs have saved literally hundreds of lives in small planes over the past decades, especially over water and hilly areas. Yes, there will be a few false positives, but anyone whose alarm just went off by accident can likely call the S&R centre.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277
    edited December 2021

    Taking back control never felt so good but this is casus belli isn't it?

    URGENT UPDATE FOR BRITISH RESIDENTS IN EU: Following a French Government decision, on 28/12/2021, unless they hold French residency, British citizens are now considered 3rd country citizens and can no longer transit France by road to reach their country of residence in the EU.

    https://twitter.com/LeShuttle/status/1476245791027179524

    I have a sense Macron would still be doing this kind of nonsense even if we were still in the EU.....blaming the roast beef is Macron go to criticism.
    There's a remarkable interview on Twitter (I might try and locate it when I'm not knackered from tax returning) where a French eurosceptic is interviewed by a French journalist about Franco-British relations. It's a serious interview, the pundit is not a lunatic


    Basically, we are doomed to a Cold War with France for years if not decades. Why? Because the super-europhile French view Brexit as an Exocet aimed directly at the greatest project of post-war France - European Unification (under French leadership, begrudgingly shared with Berlin). The EU is all that France really cares about, foreign-policy-wise, as they see it as the only way to assert French power globally, now France is relatively so small, compared to the USA, China, and other rising powers like India

    A "successful" Brexit is a mortal and perpetual peril to this ambition. If it is ever seen to happen it will encourage other more reluctant members of the EU tribe (Poland, Hungary, maybe Sweden and Denmark, even Greece and Italy) to copy the UK, thus members will topple away like dominoes and the EU will crumble.

    Therefore Brexit cannot succeed, not only that it must be punished continuously, and Britain must be singled out for worse treatment than any other 3rd country, in perpetuity (because the French have no other idea how to handle Brexit, such it their hatred and fear of it)

    Hence shit like this. Britain is deliberately being targetted by the Frogs, and this is going to go on for a long, long time, and we can expect no better from any other president - Macron is just more honest in his petulant anger than some

    The UK needs to adjust to France as an overtly hostile power, for the long term. Once we accept this we can of course react, accordingly





  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,926

    The same people that said Delta was nothing to worry about, are those that are saying Omicron is nothing to worry about.

    So is anyone who said Delta was nothing to worry about, going to stick their head up and say this is different

    Who said Delta is nothing to worry about?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,373
    edited December 2021

    ydoethur said:

    MattW said:

    ydoethur said:

    I love the way my use of 'version' rather than 'translation' about the bible has led to a heated discussion.

    After which I am none the wiser! Even if I used the wrong word, I think everyone knew what I meant .. :)

    I would say you used the right word, actually. The different translations of the Bible are called 'versions.' It's just that they differ in more than the words used, because of the different materials they use for that translation. Which is not as widely appreciated as perhaps it should be.

    There is a reason why traditionally clergy were supposed to know Greek and Hebrew - so that issue wouldn't affect them.
    Also differ in the audiences.

    Crudely, say the difference between a children's bible, one designed for elementary speakers of English, and one aimed at being a literal translation not a paraphrase.
    I'm always wary of those books that claim to be 'literal translations.' For example, I believe you can literally translate German, as it is a very literal language, but nobody who is not actually unhinged would try to 'literally' translate Welsh into English as it is so idiomatic it would come out as meaningless drivel.

    To the credit of the NIV, they make it clear from the start that they didn't try a 'literal' translation: rather, they went to enormous efforts to ensure what they had written as far as possible accurately reflected the meaning of the original.
    Da liegt der Hund begraben.
    Are you suggesting that remark is going to dog me?

    'Leaves blowing in the wind' is another one I remember.

    But I was talking about peculiar sentence structures rather than metaphors. For example, in Welsh 'I have a car' would literally translate as 'Dw'i'n gael car.' But that is meaningless. The correct translation is 'mae car 'da fi,' which in English would literally translate to 'there is a car with me.' Which means something altogether different.

    Similarly 'sorry' is technically 'mae fflin galon 'da fi' or 'mae'n ddrwg calon da fi' which roughly translates to 'there is an unbearable pain with my heart.'* Now if you translated that into English, people might realise you were saying you felt sorry, or they might reach for a defibrillator and ring an ambulance.

    *I should point out because that is one hell of a mouthful, most Welsh people just say 'sori.'
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,633
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Endillion said:

    ydoethur said:

    I love the way my use of 'version' rather than 'translation' about the bible has led to a heated discussion.

    After which I am none the wiser! Even if I used the wrong word, I think everyone knew what I meant .. :)

    I would say you used the right word, actually. The different translations of the Bible are called 'versions.' It's just that they differ in more than the words used, because of the different materials they use for that translation. Which is not as widely appreciated as perhaps it should be.

    There is a reason why traditionally clergy were supposed to know Greek and Hebrew - so that issue wouldn't affect them.
    This is mostly my fault, and I'm happy to agree that it isn't a particularly important difference in the grand scheme of things. However, I don't think it's just about the different underlying texts being used, simply because translation is not an exact science - there are a large number of Old Testament translations around which are translated directly from the Hebrew, and there are significant differences between them in English.
    Yes, I would agree with you there, for the reason I give above. There are just other reasons for major textual differences as well, which I thought was important to make clearer.

    Between us we seem to have thoroughly confused poor old @JosiasJessop though, for which I hope he will forgive us.
    I was a thoroughly peaceful and calm individual until I read the bible, after which I believe anyone committing the heinous sin of confusing me should BURN IN HADES forever. :)
    Really? That's surprising, given Hades is Greek idea and in any case nothing to do with burning AFAICR.

    The idea of hell and burning is chiefly from the Book of Revelation, and it was for a thousand ages rather than for ever.
    Fires do feature fairly often in Matthew.
  • RobD said:

    The same people that said Delta was nothing to worry about, are those that are saying Omicron is nothing to worry about.

    So is anyone who said Delta was nothing to worry about, going to stick their head up and say this is different

    Who said Delta is nothing to worry about?
    I don't recall you calling for a lockdown when Delta was around, we didn't need one was what you and several others said. I remember arguing with you about it
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,926

    RobD said:

    The same people that said Delta was nothing to worry about, are those that are saying Omicron is nothing to worry about.

    So is anyone who said Delta was nothing to worry about, going to stick their head up and say this is different

    Who said Delta is nothing to worry about?
    I don't recall you calling for a lockdown when Delta was around, we didn't need one was what you and several others said. I remember arguing with you about it
    That's not the same thing, is it?
  • RobD said:

    RobD said:

    The same people that said Delta was nothing to worry about, are those that are saying Omicron is nothing to worry about.

    So is anyone who said Delta was nothing to worry about, going to stick their head up and say this is different

    Who said Delta is nothing to worry about?
    I don't recall you calling for a lockdown when Delta was around, we didn't need one was what you and several others said. I remember arguing with you about it
    That's not the same thing, is it?
    My point is you were wrong then and so I am interested in people that did call for a lockdown then who don't think there is anything to worry about now.

    What I am hearing now is the same people that initially said "nothing to worry about" then said "lockdown isn't needed" then said "lockdown 2.0 isn't needed". It's the same people
  • RobD said:

    RobD said:

    The same people that said Delta was nothing to worry about, are those that are saying Omicron is nothing to worry about.

    So is anyone who said Delta was nothing to worry about, going to stick their head up and say this is different

    Who said Delta is nothing to worry about?
    I don't recall you calling for a lockdown when Delta was around, we didn't need one was what you and several others said. I remember arguing with you about it
    That's not the same thing, is it?
    My point is you were wrong then and so I am interested in people that did call for a lockdown then who don't think there is anything to worry about now.

    What I am hearing now is the same people that initially said "nothing to worry about" then said "lockdown isn't needed" then said "lockdown 2.0 isn't needed". It's the same people
    You keep making these massive sweeping generalisations.
  • RobD said:

    RobD said:

    The same people that said Delta was nothing to worry about, are those that are saying Omicron is nothing to worry about.

    So is anyone who said Delta was nothing to worry about, going to stick their head up and say this is different

    Who said Delta is nothing to worry about?
    I don't recall you calling for a lockdown when Delta was around, we didn't need one was what you and several others said. I remember arguing with you about it
    That's not the same thing, is it?
    My point is you were wrong then and so I am interested in people that did call for a lockdown then who don't think there is anything to worry about now.

    What I am hearing now is the same people that initially said "nothing to worry about" then said "lockdown isn't needed" then said "lockdown 2.0 isn't needed". It's the same people
    You keep making these massive sweeping generalisations.
    I don't see how they're wrong, unless you wish to counter.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,926

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    The same people that said Delta was nothing to worry about, are those that are saying Omicron is nothing to worry about.

    So is anyone who said Delta was nothing to worry about, going to stick their head up and say this is different

    Who said Delta is nothing to worry about?
    I don't recall you calling for a lockdown when Delta was around, we didn't need one was what you and several others said. I remember arguing with you about it
    That's not the same thing, is it?
    My point is you were wrong then and so I am interested in people that did call for a lockdown then who don't think there is anything to worry about now.

    What I am hearing now is the same people that initially said "nothing to worry about" then said "lockdown isn't needed" then said "lockdown 2.0 isn't needed". It's the same people
    Sorry, how was I wrong? I've never said Covid is "nothing to worry about". How one responds to the issue is more nuanced. There are many costs to lockdowns, and some have the legitimate view that those costs are not worth bearing.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,405

    The same people that said Delta was nothing to worry about, are those that are saying Omicron is nothing to worry about.

    So is anyone who said Delta was nothing to worry about, going to stick their head up and say this is different

    Which people @CorrectHorseBattery? I am heartened the reports from the front line, matching exactly what was seen in SA. Patients being admitted with Covid, not for Covid. Patients needing less ventilation. The bigger threat seems to be staff sickness and isolation.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,572
    Let's invent a new word for different iterations of the bible:

    translavers: translations and versions of roughly the same thing.

    Or perhaps not, as I've just realised some may think it means people who keep trans people in bondage ...
  • The same people that said Delta was nothing to worry about, are those that are saying Omicron is nothing to worry about.

    So is anyone who said Delta was nothing to worry about, going to stick their head up and say this is different

    Delta was nothing to worry about.

    By the time Delta came about we'd already rolled out the vaccines and we came out of lockdown despite all the hysterical bullshit about the Johnson Variant.

    Post vaccines Covid isn't something to worry about. Unvaccinated morons and social hypochondria are much bigger concerns.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,373

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    The same people that said Delta was nothing to worry about, are those that are saying Omicron is nothing to worry about.

    So is anyone who said Delta was nothing to worry about, going to stick their head up and say this is different

    Who said Delta is nothing to worry about?
    I don't recall you calling for a lockdown when Delta was around, we didn't need one was what you and several others said. I remember arguing with you about it
    That's not the same thing, is it?
    My point is you were wrong then and so I am interested in people that did call for a lockdown then who don't think there is anything to worry about now.

    What I am hearing now is the same people that initially said "nothing to worry about" then said "lockdown isn't needed" then said "lockdown 2.0 isn't needed". It's the same people
    You keep making these massive sweeping generalisations.
    I have generally preferred not to make generalisations.

    And with that, good night.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,401
    Leon said:

    Taking back control never felt so good but this is casus belli isn't it?

    URGENT UPDATE FOR BRITISH RESIDENTS IN EU: Following a French Government decision, on 28/12/2021, unless they hold French residency, British citizens are now considered 3rd country citizens and can no longer transit France by road to reach their country of residence in the EU.

    https://twitter.com/LeShuttle/status/1476245791027179524

    I have a sense Macron would still be doing this kind of nonsense even if we were still in the EU.....blaming the roast beef is Macron go to criticism.
    There's a remarkable interview on Twitter (I might try and locate it when I'm not knackered from tax returning) where a French eurosceptic is interviewed by a French journalist about Franco-British relations. It's a serious interview, the pundit is not a lunatic


    Basically, we are doomed to a Cold War with France for years if not decades. Why? Because the super-europhile French view Brexit as an Exocet aimed directly at the greatest project of post-war France - European Unification (under French leadership, begrudgingly shared with Berlin). The EU is all that France really cares about, foreign-policy-wise, as they see it as the only way to assert French power globally, now France is relatively so small, compared to the USA, China, and other rising powers like India

    A "successful" Brexit is a mortal and perpetual peril to this ambition. If it is ever seen to happen it will encourage other more reluctant members of the EU tribe (Poland, Hungary, maybe Sweden and Denmark, even Greece and Italy) to copy the UK, thus members will topple away like dominoes and the EU will crumble.

    Therefore Brexit cannot succeed, not only that it must be punished continuously, and Britain must be singled out for worse treatment than any other 3rd country, in perpetuity (because the French have no other idea how to handle Brexit, such it their hatred and fear of it)

    Hence shit like this. Britain is deliberately being targetted by the Frogs, and this is going to go on for a long, long time, and we can expect no better from any other president - Macron is just more honest in his petulant anger than some

    The UK needs to adjust to France as an overtly hostile power, for the long term. Once we accept this we can of course react, accordingly





    Good job there's no sign of a successful Brexit then. Phew! Stand down.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,926

    The same people that said Delta was nothing to worry about, are those that are saying Omicron is nothing to worry about.

    So is anyone who said Delta was nothing to worry about, going to stick their head up and say this is different

    Delta was nothing to worry about.

    By the time Delta came about we'd already rolled out the vaccines and we came out of lockdown despite all the hysterical bullshit about the Johnson Variant.

    Post vaccines Covid isn't something to worry about. Unvaccinated morons and social hypochondria are much bigger concerns.
    The timeline is a bit off. Delta came along just prior to (or at the time of) the vaccine rollout.
  • The same people that said Delta was nothing to worry about, are those that are saying Omicron is nothing to worry about.

    So is anyone who said Delta was nothing to worry about, going to stick their head up and say this is different

    Delta was nothing to worry about.

    By the time Delta came about we'd already rolled out the vaccines and we came out of lockdown despite all the hysterical bullshit about the Johnson Variant.

    Post vaccines Covid isn't something to worry about. Unvaccinated morons and social hypochondria are much bigger concerns.
    Your opinion is the one I literally value least, you've been consistently wrong on everything since this whole pandemic started. So I will ignore your views.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,829
    IshmaelZ said:

    Carnyx said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Endillion said:

    Endillion said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    ydoethur said:

    eek said:

    ydoethur said:

    eek said:

    Carnyx said:

    dixiedean said:

    eek said:

    As we are discussing stupid things have we covered Oklahoma trying to use the Texas abortion fines to remove books from Oklahoma schools

    https://thehill.com/changing-america/respect/diversity-inclusion/587517-oklahoma-lawmaker-introduces-book-banning-bill

    I'm so looking forward to the removal of every book from every school and watching the teachers try and teach from nothing.

    Unsurprisingly. Banning books gives them a certain cachet amongst young people.

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/education/2021/dec/23/us-book-bans-conservative-parents-reading
    Local bookseller on a book which wasn't even in the school library (except as an ebook):

    '“It was not easy to find a box full of 33 Snowfish, but we did,” he continues. “We sold all that we bought, and we kept a couple as loaners because we wanted to make sure any students in the community could see what the fuss was about. There will always be some around.”

    It’s now easier than ever to read 33 Snowfish in Spotsylvania county [...]'
    Oh it's publicity gold to an author when their book is banned - it wouldn't surprise me if agents sought to get their author's books banned just for the publicity it generates.
    When The Well of Loneliness was banned, Virginia Wolff and Compton Mackenzie were furious that Orlando and Extraordinary Women were not banned at the same time. They felt cheated out of the extra sales a court case would produce.

    Oddly, Lady Chatterley's Lover was banned at the same time, and not republished for 30 years. And when it was finally published in 1959 the trial caused sales to rocket. Huge numbers of copies were being passed round schools in the hope that they would find the naughty bits.

    The key thing linking them of course is that they were all otherwise notably undistinguished books.
    See also the Satanic Verses which I've found unreadable both times I've attempted to start it.
    The most comical one I worked on was Ulysses, which escaped a formal ban because the lawyer assessing it at the request of the Home Office admitted he had been totally unable to read it. Instead, they launched proceedings under various post office regulations as far as can be judged simply to annoy James Joyce.

    Quite amazingly, there is a record of an American magistrate who had somehow read and understood it.
    I didn't realise one was supposed to actually understand it. I thought Ulysses was simply a collection of words in a semi-random order that existed to test the patience of the reader.

    I made it about six pages in.
    It is the only novel I have read twice

    Tho I confess I couldn't get past the third paragraph of Finnegan's Wake
    When I'm sitting in an airport lounge, sleep deprived, unsure what time of day or night it is, then I find rereading novels is a perfect way to pass the time.
    A very religious uni friend said something about the bible. He had read it many times, and at times of stress, or boredom, he would pick up a bible and read it: it relaxed him, and the familiarity of the text was like talking to a friend and time would fly.

    He also said that reading a different version of the bible was rather jarring, as he noticed the differences.
    He presumably means a different English translation, rather than a different version.
    Not being religious, I assumed 'version' equated to 'translation'?

    I.e. the King James bible is a translation, but also a version?
    If you only read it in English, then yes, it's a distinction without a difference. My point was that the reason why you have so many English "versions", and why there are differences between them big enough to feel jarring, is that it's an English translation of a (Latin translation of a) Greek translation of the originals in either Aramaic or Hebrew. The original untranslated versions are all mostly close enough together that you can read different versions without the jarring feeling.
    Absolute utter and unqualified balls, every book of the New Testament was originally written in koine Greek.
    I do like the gentle tones of a quiet theological discussion in the grassy back lawns of the internet.
    Celtic and Rangers are Edinburgh's two principal cricket teams. This is that level of misinformation.
    Quite, forgetting Partick Thistle like that.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,572
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    MattW said:

    ydoethur said:

    I love the way my use of 'version' rather than 'translation' about the bible has led to a heated discussion.

    After which I am none the wiser! Even if I used the wrong word, I think everyone knew what I meant .. :)

    I would say you used the right word, actually. The different translations of the Bible are called 'versions.' It's just that they differ in more than the words used, because of the different materials they use for that translation. Which is not as widely appreciated as perhaps it should be.

    There is a reason why traditionally clergy were supposed to know Greek and Hebrew - so that issue wouldn't affect them.
    Also differ in the audiences.

    Crudely, say the difference between a children's bible, one designed for elementary speakers of English, and one aimed at being a literal translation not a paraphrase.
    I'm always wary of those books that claim to be 'literal translations.' For example, I believe you can literally translate German, as it is a very literal language, but nobody who is not actually unhinged would try to 'literally' translate Welsh into English as it is so idiomatic it would come out as meaningless drivel.

    To the credit of the NIV, they make it clear from the start that they didn't try a 'literal' translation: rather, they went to enormous efforts to ensure what they had written as far as possible accurately reflected the meaning of the original.
    Da liegt der Hund begraben.
    Are you suggesting that remark is going to dog me?

    'Leaves blowing in the wind' is another one I remember.

    But I was talking about peculiar sentence structures rather than metaphors. For example, in Welsh 'I have a car' would literally translate as 'Dw'i'n gael car.' But that is meaningless. The correct translation is 'mae car 'da fi,' which in English would literally translate to 'there is a car with me.' Which means something altogether different.

    Similarly 'sorry' is technically 'mae fflin galon 'da fi' or 'mae'n ddrwg calon da fi' which roughly translates to 'there is an unbearable pain with my heart.'* Now if you translated that into English, people might realise you were saying you felt sorry, or they might reach for a defibrillator and ring an ambulance.

    *I should point out because that is one hell of a mouthful, most Welsh people just say 'sori.'
    How do you say: "I am not in the office at the moment. Send any work to be translated." in Welsh?

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/7702913.stm
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,991
    edited December 2021

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    The same people that said Delta was nothing to worry about, are those that are saying Omicron is nothing to worry about.

    So is anyone who said Delta was nothing to worry about, going to stick their head up and say this is different

    Who said Delta is nothing to worry about?
    I don't recall you calling for a lockdown when Delta was around, we didn't need one was what you and several others said. I remember arguing with you about it
    That's not the same thing, is it?
    My point is you were wrong then and so I am interested in people that did call for a lockdown then who don't think there is anything to worry about now.

    What I am hearing now is the same people that initially said "nothing to worry about" then said "lockdown isn't needed" then said "lockdown 2.0 isn't needed". It's the same people
    You keep making these massive sweeping generalisations.
    I don't see how they're wrong, unless you wish to counter.
    Yes they are. Lots of people on here a) certainly didn't say Delta was nothing to worry about and b) are now more relaxed about Omicron...but there is also lots of nuance within that e.g. you can be unconcerned on a personal level, because they have looked at the data and assessed the risk, but that doesn't mean they have zero concern about the wider situation.

    Before we had vaccines, I was very much of the opinion to have tougher rather than lack restrictions, now I am much more on the other side. However, that isn't binary, in the way you continue to keep phrasing these statements.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,405

    RobD said:

    The same people that said Delta was nothing to worry about, are those that are saying Omicron is nothing to worry about.

    So is anyone who said Delta was nothing to worry about, going to stick their head up and say this is different

    Who said Delta is nothing to worry about?
    I don't recall you calling for a lockdown when Delta was around, we didn't need one was what you and several others said. I remember arguing with you about it
    I don’t recall locking down for delta? Last U.K. lockdown was for alpha aka cockney Covid aka Kent variant. And that ended in stages, but definitely by July 2021.
  • RobD said:

    The same people that said Delta was nothing to worry about, are those that are saying Omicron is nothing to worry about.

    So is anyone who said Delta was nothing to worry about, going to stick their head up and say this is different

    Who said Delta is nothing to worry about?
    I don't recall you calling for a lockdown when Delta was around, we didn't need one was what you and several others said. I remember arguing with you about it
    We didn't.

    We didn't have one for Delta. We had one for Alpha.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,926
    RobD said:

    The same people that said Delta was nothing to worry about, are those that are saying Omicron is nothing to worry about.

    So is anyone who said Delta was nothing to worry about, going to stick their head up and say this is different

    Delta was nothing to worry about.

    By the time Delta came about we'd already rolled out the vaccines and we came out of lockdown despite all the hysterical bullshit about the Johnson Variant.

    Post vaccines Covid isn't something to worry about. Unvaccinated morons and social hypochondria are much bigger concerns.
    The timeline is a bit off. Delta came along just prior to (or at the time of) the vaccine rollout.
    @turbotubbs' post made me realise that I've mixed up my variants...
  • RobD said:

    RobD said:

    The same people that said Delta was nothing to worry about, are those that are saying Omicron is nothing to worry about.

    So is anyone who said Delta was nothing to worry about, going to stick their head up and say this is different

    Who said Delta is nothing to worry about?
    I don't recall you calling for a lockdown when Delta was around, we didn't need one was what you and several others said. I remember arguing with you about it
    That's not the same thing, is it?
    My point is you were wrong then and so I am interested in people that did call for a lockdown then who don't think there is anything to worry about now.

    What I am hearing now is the same people that initially said "nothing to worry about" then said "lockdown isn't needed" then said "lockdown 2.0 isn't needed". It's the same people
    You keep making these massive sweeping generalisations.
    I don't see how they're wrong, unless you wish to counter.
    Yes they are. Lots of people a) certainly didn't say Delta was nothing to worry about and b) are now more relaxed about Omicron...but there is also lots of nuance e.g. you can be unconcerned on a personal level, because they have looked at the data and assessed the risk, but that doesn't mean they have zero concern about the wider situation.
    So who here said we needed a lockdown for Delta and now thinks we don't need to do anything for Omicron.

    I'm not seeing anyone. Everyone who was cautious before is cautious now and everyone who was "herd immunity happened, lockdowns don't work" still thinks we need to do nothing.

    It is people who have a different view for Omicron, that I am interested in
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,405
    RobD said:

    The same people that said Delta was nothing to worry about, are those that are saying Omicron is nothing to worry about.

    So is anyone who said Delta was nothing to worry about, going to stick their head up and say this is different

    Delta was nothing to worry about.

    By the time Delta came about we'd already rolled out the vaccines and we came out of lockdown despite all the hysterical bullshit about the Johnson Variant.

    Post vaccines Covid isn't something to worry about. Unvaccinated morons and social hypochondria are much bigger concerns.
    The timeline is a bit off. Delta came along just prior to (or at the time of) the vaccine rollout.
    I think that’s wrong. Are you thinking of alpha?
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,633

    .

    ydoethur said:

    MattW said:

    ydoethur said:

    I love the way my use of 'version' rather than 'translation' about the bible has led to a heated discussion.

    After which I am none the wiser! Even if I used the wrong word, I think everyone knew what I meant .. :)

    I would say you used the right word, actually. The different translations of the Bible are called 'versions.' It's just that they differ in more than the words used, because of the different materials they use for that translation. Which is not as widely appreciated as perhaps it should be.

    There is a reason why traditionally clergy were supposed to know Greek and Hebrew - so that issue wouldn't affect them.
    Also differ in the audiences.

    Crudely, say the difference between a children's bible, one designed for elementary speakers of English, and one aimed at being a literal translation not a paraphrase.
    I'm always wary of those books that claim to be 'literal translations.' For example, I believe you can literally translate German, as it is a very literal language, but nobody who is not actually unhinged would try to 'literally' translate Welsh into English as it is so idiomatic it would come out as meaningless drivel.

    To the credit of the NIV, they make it clear from the start that they didn't try a 'literal' translation: rather, they went to enormous efforts to ensure what they had written as far as possible accurately reflected the meaning of the original.
    I am shocked, shocked that the German language is entirely literal.

    The interplay between languages, cultures and philosophy is very interesting.
    Superbly literal is German. I do rather like Fledermaus and handschuhe. German compound words are a real pleasure. There is a twitter site for them...

    https://twitter.com/longgermanwords?t=SAkiSlJPZo1JqUaTXp_SUw&s=09
  • Alpha, my apologies. Not Delta
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,926

    RobD said:

    The same people that said Delta was nothing to worry about, are those that are saying Omicron is nothing to worry about.

    So is anyone who said Delta was nothing to worry about, going to stick their head up and say this is different

    Delta was nothing to worry about.

    By the time Delta came about we'd already rolled out the vaccines and we came out of lockdown despite all the hysterical bullshit about the Johnson Variant.

    Post vaccines Covid isn't something to worry about. Unvaccinated morons and social hypochondria are much bigger concerns.
    The timeline is a bit off. Delta came along just prior to (or at the time of) the vaccine rollout.
    I think that’s wrong. Are you thinking of alpha?
    Yep. I had a moment.
  • Chris Woakes has given his backing to Joe Root but not to Chris Silverwood after England surrendered the Ashes at the MCG.


  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 8,647
    Carnyx said:

    IanB2 said:

    ydoethur said:

    I don't agree with Topping's mountaineering comparison. It's crass.

    However, there are aspects to this that might confuse. There are 'good' mountaineers/hikers/walkers/climbers: people who go up with the correct equipment, judging the conditions, and come unstuck due to a simple mistake or bad luck, such as weather.

    Then there are 'mountaineers' (really, people who go up mountains) who wear the wrong kit, don't look at the weather, and carry no equipment to help them. I've seen loads like this, like a couple of people in loafers near the top of Scafell Pike, or jeans and no pack in cold mist on Kinder Scout.

    I have much more sympathy with the former than the latter.

    Many years ago while I was in Aber, I had gone out early one morning to photograph the scenery after a heavy overnight fall of snow.

    Coming back down Constie (the big cliff at the north end with the funicular) in proper mountain boots with thick, grippy rubber soles, very gingerly, I met a couple of younger students walking up. The girl was in high heels. She had no grip at all.

    I managed to keep calm and persuaded them to turn around, but my goodness, I was hiding being very angry.
    You get that a lot in the Alps in the summer. Typically a couple who have gone up the cable car ‘just to look at the view’ and then decided to wander off along some mountain path.
    One very snowy day a friend of mine met an ill-equipped and lost pair in the Lairig Ghru [trhough valley in the Cairngorm Hills]. He took them down to safety - at the cost of going well out of his way. But ...
    I've helped in similar circumstances. The walkers from abroad had been advised by tourist information in Aviemore that the walk from Glenmore to Braemar was a good one.

    Shame there were only 6 hours of daylight and it was going down to -8c. They were carrying their guitars! I got them from Corrour bothy to Derry lodge.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,663
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    We are in big trouble I am afraid.

    You keep saying this, is there any chance of you elaborating? What scenario do you envisage for the UK, Europe, the world?


    Genuine question. Just coming on here and saying "Oo-er" is not especially enlightening

    And yes I know I do it all the time but at least I endeavour to entertain, mostly
    I posted a lot earlier Leon.

    I think with the large number of cases, mutations are likely which could evade vaccines and/or be more dangerous as we saw with delta.

    The people in hospital is going one way: up.

    I think we're in trouble. I still hope I am wrong but I am no longer unworried as I was a few days ago.
    Yes, that is possible. On the other hand it looks like Omicron rises and falls steeply and quickly

    Like many of us - you too, it seems - I veer between optimism and pessimism, but for the last week or so I have been very mildly optimistic (which is quite a long time for me)

    I believe the virus is now, painfully, evolving into something less severe but still horribly infectious (and dangerous, if we get a new variant); perhaps more importantly, human society is adjusting. We are Learning to Live With It. Very few countries are now in total hard lockdown, unlike last winter

    It is still fucking shit, and we have more shit to get through, but there is now a hint of a map showing the way out
    I thought we had the route out when the vaccines were developed. Proved not to be so simples, sadly.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277
    ydoethur said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    The same people that said Delta was nothing to worry about, are those that are saying Omicron is nothing to worry about.

    So is anyone who said Delta was nothing to worry about, going to stick their head up and say this is different

    Who said Delta is nothing to worry about?
    I don't recall you calling for a lockdown when Delta was around, we didn't need one was what you and several others said. I remember arguing with you about it
    That's not the same thing, is it?
    My point is you were wrong then and so I am interested in people that did call for a lockdown then who don't think there is anything to worry about now.

    What I am hearing now is the same people that initially said "nothing to worry about" then said "lockdown isn't needed" then said "lockdown 2.0 isn't needed". It's the same people
    You keep making these massive sweeping generalisations.
    I have generally preferred not to make generalisations.

    And with that, good night.
    But the French elite are so paranoid about Brexit, so allergic to it and fearful of it, they set a low bar for its success. Britain surviving intact and not starving to death will probably seem quite successful to them. given their direful predictions of total British implosion.

    Then the next time the EU does something widely unpopular, eurosceptics across the continent will start to look longingly at independent London.

    This is the great French fear. By this guy's account it does stalk their nightmares.
  • RobD said:

    The same people that said Delta was nothing to worry about, are those that are saying Omicron is nothing to worry about.

    So is anyone who said Delta was nothing to worry about, going to stick their head up and say this is different

    Delta was nothing to worry about.

    By the time Delta came about we'd already rolled out the vaccines and we came out of lockdown despite all the hysterical bullshit about the Johnson Variant.

    Post vaccines Covid isn't something to worry about. Unvaccinated morons and social hypochondria are much bigger concerns.
    The timeline is a bit off. Delta came along just prior to (or at the time of) the vaccine rollout.
    Not in the UK it didn't.

    Check the share of UK cases that were Delta and the date that Delta strain took over. We never introduced even a single restriction for Delta, they were introduced for Alpha (then known as the Kent or Cockney or UK variant).
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,812
    Just watched Don’t look up. Deeply depressing yet very funny. Recommend it highly.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,926
    edited December 2021

    RobD said:

    The same people that said Delta was nothing to worry about, are those that are saying Omicron is nothing to worry about.

    So is anyone who said Delta was nothing to worry about, going to stick their head up and say this is different

    Delta was nothing to worry about.

    By the time Delta came about we'd already rolled out the vaccines and we came out of lockdown despite all the hysterical bullshit about the Johnson Variant.

    Post vaccines Covid isn't something to worry about. Unvaccinated morons and social hypochondria are much bigger concerns.
    The timeline is a bit off. Delta came along just prior to (or at the time of) the vaccine rollout.
    Not in the UK it didn't.

    Check the share of UK cases that were Delta and the date that Delta strain took over. We never introduced even a single restriction for Delta, they were introduced for Alpha (then known as the Kent or Cockney or UK variant).
    My mistake. Given the context of @CorrectHorseBattery's post I thought he was referring to delta as the variant at the time of the lockdown in winter 2020.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,926
    Cockney covid? Need a trigger warning on that one.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,633

    Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    We are in big trouble I am afraid.

    You keep saying this, is there any chance of you elaborating? What scenario do you envisage for the UK, Europe, the world?


    Genuine question. Just coming on here and saying "Oo-er" is not especially enlightening

    And yes I know I do it all the time but at least I endeavour to entertain, mostly
    I posted a lot earlier Leon.

    I think with the large number of cases, mutations are likely which could evade vaccines and/or be more dangerous as we saw with delta.

    The people in hospital is going one way: up.

    I think we're in trouble. I still hope I am wrong but I am no longer unworried as I was a few days ago.
    My hospital has installed a fixed multi-user holding ambulance to help unload. There were 25 ambulances on the forecourt tonight as I walked out. It looks pretty grim in terms of capacity.
    Thanks Foxy. But am sorry to hear this as this does not sound good at all.

    Thoughts from the parish?
    Quiet clinic this morning, but got busier as the day went on. Tomorrow looks bad as my registrar is off. Certain key staff off. Number of covid inpatients up 47% on last week. ICU about the same though. Will keep plodding on...
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,153
    Evening all:

    My son has Covid.

    He's 11 and vaxxed (albeit with a pediatric dose). No-one else in the family has tested positive, and we're all fully vaxxed.

    His symptoms are cold like with a sore throat.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,812
    Eabhal said:

    Carnyx said:

    IanB2 said:

    ydoethur said:

    I don't agree with Topping's mountaineering comparison. It's crass.

    However, there are aspects to this that might confuse. There are 'good' mountaineers/hikers/walkers/climbers: people who go up with the correct equipment, judging the conditions, and come unstuck due to a simple mistake or bad luck, such as weather.

    Then there are 'mountaineers' (really, people who go up mountains) who wear the wrong kit, don't look at the weather, and carry no equipment to help them. I've seen loads like this, like a couple of people in loafers near the top of Scafell Pike, or jeans and no pack in cold mist on Kinder Scout.

    I have much more sympathy with the former than the latter.

    Many years ago while I was in Aber, I had gone out early one morning to photograph the scenery after a heavy overnight fall of snow.

    Coming back down Constie (the big cliff at the north end with the funicular) in proper mountain boots with thick, grippy rubber soles, very gingerly, I met a couple of younger students walking up. The girl was in high heels. She had no grip at all.

    I managed to keep calm and persuaded them to turn around, but my goodness, I was hiding being very angry.
    You get that a lot in the Alps in the summer. Typically a couple who have gone up the cable car ‘just to look at the view’ and then decided to wander off along some mountain path.
    One very snowy day a friend of mine met an ill-equipped and lost pair in the Lairig Ghru [trhough valley in the Cairngorm Hills]. He took them down to safety - at the cost of going well out of his way. But ...
    I've helped in similar circumstances. The walkers from abroad had been advised by tourist information in Aviemore that the walk from Glenmore to Braemar was a good one.

    Shame there were only 6 hours of daylight and it was going down to -8c. They were carrying their guitars! I got them from Corrour bothy to Derry lodge.
    I haven’t done the Lairig Ghru for more than 15 years now. It a special route but only for those properly equipped, especially in winter.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,572
    rcs1000 said:

    Evening all:

    My son has Covid.

    He's 11 and vaxxed (albeit with a pediatric dose). No-one else in the family has tested positive, and we're all fully vaxxed.

    His symptoms are cold like with a sore throat.

    I hope he (and all of you) are okay.

    I'm resigned to getting the bu**er. But I want it as late as possible, and preferably in the New Year, so I can complete my year of running... ;)
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277
    rcs1000 said:

    Evening all:

    My son has Covid.

    He's 11 and vaxxed (albeit with a pediatric dose). No-one else in the family has tested positive, and we're all fully vaxxed.

    His symptoms are cold like with a sore throat.

    Best of British. I hear "hot broth" is highly efficacious
  • RobD said:

    RobD said:

    The same people that said Delta was nothing to worry about, are those that are saying Omicron is nothing to worry about.

    So is anyone who said Delta was nothing to worry about, going to stick their head up and say this is different

    Delta was nothing to worry about.

    By the time Delta came about we'd already rolled out the vaccines and we came out of lockdown despite all the hysterical bullshit about the Johnson Variant.

    Post vaccines Covid isn't something to worry about. Unvaccinated morons and social hypochondria are much bigger concerns.
    The timeline is a bit off. Delta came along just prior to (or at the time of) the vaccine rollout.
    Not in the UK it didn't.

    Check the share of UK cases that were Delta and the date that Delta strain took over. We never introduced even a single restriction for Delta, they were introduced for Alpha (then known as the Kent or Cockney or UK variant).
    My mistake. Given the context of @CorrectHorseBattery's post I thought he was referring to delta as the variant at the time of the lockdown in winter 2020.
    Indeed the Winter 2020 Alpha variant was the bad one and it also predated vaccines so people were not saying it was nothing to worry about.

    Indeed I at the time was entirely accepting of lockdown with the aim of getting the vaccine rolled out.

    If he meant Alpha instead of Delta then I don't know to whom @CorrectHorseBattery is referring for saying that Alpha was no concern. Quite the opposite most of us were quite concerned that the vaccines get rolled out ASAP.

    Any comparison of pre vaccine to post vaccine situations is completely absurd.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,401
    edited December 2021

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    The same people that said Delta was nothing to worry about, are those that are saying Omicron is nothing to worry about.

    So is anyone who said Delta was nothing to worry about, going to stick their head up and say this is different

    Who said Delta is nothing to worry about?
    I don't recall you calling for a lockdown when Delta was around, we didn't need one was what you and several others said. I remember arguing with you about it
    That's not the same thing, is it?
    My point is you were wrong then and so I am interested in people that did call for a lockdown then who don't think there is anything to worry about now.

    What I am hearing now is the same people that initially said "nothing to worry about" then said "lockdown isn't needed" then said "lockdown 2.0 isn't needed". It's the same people
    You keep making these massive sweeping generalisations.
    I don't see how they're wrong, unless you wish to counter.
    Yes they are. Lots of people a) certainly didn't say Delta was nothing to worry about and b) are now more relaxed about Omicron...but there is also lots of nuance e.g. you can be unconcerned on a personal level, because they have looked at the data and assessed the risk, but that doesn't mean they have zero concern about the wider situation.
    So who here said we needed a lockdown for Delta and now thinks we don't need to do anything for Omicron.

    I'm not seeing anyone. Everyone who was cautious before is cautious now and everyone who was "herd immunity happened, lockdowns don't work" still thinks we need to do nothing.

    It is people who have a different view for Omicron, that I am interested in
    Me.
    I'm still on the cautious side. That is I'm saying it is too early to do a lap of honour, as a few were doing at least a week ago.
    However. The case for doing owt is unproven thus far, other than get a jab asap.
    I am more concerned about the framing tbh.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,829

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    MattW said:

    ydoethur said:

    I love the way my use of 'version' rather than 'translation' about the bible has led to a heated discussion.

    After which I am none the wiser! Even if I used the wrong word, I think everyone knew what I meant .. :)

    I would say you used the right word, actually. The different translations of the Bible are called 'versions.' It's just that they differ in more than the words used, because of the different materials they use for that translation. Which is not as widely appreciated as perhaps it should be.

    There is a reason why traditionally clergy were supposed to know Greek and Hebrew - so that issue wouldn't affect them.
    Also differ in the audiences.

    Crudely, say the difference between a children's bible, one designed for elementary speakers of English, and one aimed at being a literal translation not a paraphrase.
    I'm always wary of those books that claim to be 'literal translations.' For example, I believe you can literally translate German, as it is a very literal language, but nobody who is not actually unhinged would try to 'literally' translate Welsh into English as it is so idiomatic it would come out as meaningless drivel.

    To the credit of the NIV, they make it clear from the start that they didn't try a 'literal' translation: rather, they went to enormous efforts to ensure what they had written as far as possible accurately reflected the meaning of the original.
    Da liegt der Hund begraben.
    Are you suggesting that remark is going to dog me?

    'Leaves blowing in the wind' is another one I remember.

    But I was talking about peculiar sentence structures rather than metaphors. For example, in Welsh 'I have a car' would literally translate as 'Dw'i'n gael car.' But that is meaningless. The correct translation is 'mae car 'da fi,' which in English would literally translate to 'there is a car with me.' Which means something altogether different.

    Similarly 'sorry' is technically 'mae fflin galon 'da fi' or 'mae'n ddrwg calon da fi' which roughly translates to 'there is an unbearable pain with my heart.'* Now if you translated that into English, people might realise you were saying you felt sorry, or they might reach for a defibrillator and ring an ambulance.

    *I should point out because that is one hell of a mouthful, most Welsh people just say 'sori.'
    How do you say: "I am not in the office at the moment. Send any work to be translated." in Welsh?

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/7702913.stm
    At least it's in Welsh. I recall when Labour sent election bumf to Scotland that was bilingual in Welsh and English, though admittedly the reference to 'Welsh Labour' was a bit of a giveaway.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,990
    Don't tell them your name, Pike...

    🇬🇧 A Whitehall style guide advises civil servants to avoid using the word “Brexit” and instead refer to “31 December 2020”
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2021/12/29/avoid-using-word-brexit-whitehall-style-guide-advises-civil/
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,572
    Carnyx said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    MattW said:

    ydoethur said:

    I love the way my use of 'version' rather than 'translation' about the bible has led to a heated discussion.

    After which I am none the wiser! Even if I used the wrong word, I think everyone knew what I meant .. :)

    I would say you used the right word, actually. The different translations of the Bible are called 'versions.' It's just that they differ in more than the words used, because of the different materials they use for that translation. Which is not as widely appreciated as perhaps it should be.

    There is a reason why traditionally clergy were supposed to know Greek and Hebrew - so that issue wouldn't affect them.
    Also differ in the audiences.

    Crudely, say the difference between a children's bible, one designed for elementary speakers of English, and one aimed at being a literal translation not a paraphrase.
    I'm always wary of those books that claim to be 'literal translations.' For example, I believe you can literally translate German, as it is a very literal language, but nobody who is not actually unhinged would try to 'literally' translate Welsh into English as it is so idiomatic it would come out as meaningless drivel.

    To the credit of the NIV, they make it clear from the start that they didn't try a 'literal' translation: rather, they went to enormous efforts to ensure what they had written as far as possible accurately reflected the meaning of the original.
    Da liegt der Hund begraben.
    Are you suggesting that remark is going to dog me?

    'Leaves blowing in the wind' is another one I remember.

    But I was talking about peculiar sentence structures rather than metaphors. For example, in Welsh 'I have a car' would literally translate as 'Dw'i'n gael car.' But that is meaningless. The correct translation is 'mae car 'da fi,' which in English would literally translate to 'there is a car with me.' Which means something altogether different.

    Similarly 'sorry' is technically 'mae fflin galon 'da fi' or 'mae'n ddrwg calon da fi' which roughly translates to 'there is an unbearable pain with my heart.'* Now if you translated that into English, people might realise you were saying you felt sorry, or they might reach for a defibrillator and ring an ambulance.

    *I should point out because that is one hell of a mouthful, most Welsh people just say 'sori.'
    How do you say: "I am not in the office at the moment. Send any work to be translated." in Welsh?

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/7702913.stm
    At least it's in Welsh. I recall when Labour sent election bumf to Scotland that was bilingual in Welsh and English, though admittedly the reference to 'Welsh Labour' was a bit of a giveaway.
    Not a translation, but I like the Labour candidates (*) in ?2015? who sent out election literature with boilerplate 'insert candidate info here' in.

    (*) I daresay candidates for other parties have done similar.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,926
    Scott_xP said:

    Don't tell them your name, Pike...

    🇬🇧 A Whitehall style guide advises civil servants to avoid using the word “Brexit” and instead refer to “31 December 2020”
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2021/12/29/avoid-using-word-brexit-whitehall-style-guide-advises-civil/

    During the 1939-1945 conflict with Germany....
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,148
    edited December 2021
    ydoethur said:

    MattW said:

    ydoethur said:

    I love the way my use of 'version' rather than 'translation' about the bible has led to a heated discussion.

    After which I am none the wiser! Even if I used the wrong word, I think everyone knew what I meant .. :)

    I would say you used the right word, actually. The different translations of the Bible are called 'versions.' It's just that they differ in more than the words used, because of the different materials they use for that translation. Which is not as widely appreciated as perhaps it should be.

    There is a reason why traditionally clergy were supposed to know Greek and Hebrew - so that issue wouldn't affect them.
    Also differ in the audiences.

    Crudely, say the difference between a children's bible, one designed for elementary speakers of English, and one aimed at being a literal translation not a paraphrase.
    I'm always wary of those books that claim to be 'literal translations.' For example, I believe you can literally translate German, as it is a very literal language, but nobody who is not actually unhinged would try to 'literally' translate Welsh into English as it is so idiomatic it would come out as meaningless drivel.

    To the credit of the NIV, they make it clear from the start that they didn't try a 'literal' translation: rather, they went to enormous efforts to ensure what they had written as far as possible accurately reflected the meaning of the original.
    Absolutely. In the context of a Bible translation, it is likely to be an attempt to follow the correct corresponding words and structure of the original text - but understanding the process is v. important. May lead to eg a version stilted in English, but if being used for eg study in sermon prep. then the compromise would be worth it.

    Whilst a version designed more for public reading is likely to give more emphasis to fluency in the English expression.

    I had a friend who went to do Bible Translation in Ougadougou. Interesting conversations.

    On NIV - yes a very good translation but that had a bit of a habit of following evangelical ideas, by comparison with say the Jerusalem Bible, which had a bit of an RC fingerprint.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,153
    kyf_100 said:

    We are in big trouble I am afraid.

    "We" aren't in big trouble at all.

    If you've had your jabs and your booster, it's almost certainly nothing more than a bad cold.

    If you're clinically vulnerable, or very old, you can shield, you can go into voluntary lockdown for a couple of months. Or take your chances with it as you would any flu season (my elderly relatives, for example, would rather live out the time they have with family than spend it cowering in their rooms and never seeing anyone).

    This variant is contagious enough that not even a strict lockdown could get R below 1. So it's going to go through the population anyway. All another lockdown will achieve is more economic, mental and physical harm on those of us who have done the right thing and gotten jabbed and boosted.

    The anti-vax contingent may be in big trouble, however. If it does look like the NHS is going to be overwhelmed then, frankly, at this point f*** 'em.

    Open up the nightingale hospitals and give the unvaxxed palliative care only. Prioritise NHS beds for those who have been vaccinated, especially the elderly and clinically vulnerable. Introduce an immediate covid tax on all the unvaccinated. And let it run its course.

    It's TINA at this point, with a variant as contagious as omicron. You'll never get the R below 1 again, you won't get enough people complying with total lockdown and people still need to go to work, to deliver food, to man the power stations, to empty the bins. All you will be able to do is inflict a year more of misery and drudgery on the population, until they eventually riot, stop following the rules entirely), or turf you out of office.

    The pandemic is over (or will be once the omicron wave sweeps the country), no matter how much you want to proclaim the sky is falling down.

    Get your jabs, get your booster, make sure the NHS prioritises vaccinated people and if that means some unjabbed people die off, well that is their choice, just as smokers get lung cancer and alcoholics die of cirrhosis.

    If you, my doom-mongering friend, want a real end of the world scenario, consider what happens if China goes into hard lockdown and industry gums up, the economy dies, and our shelves start to resemble a supermarket in Soviet times.

    The collapse of global supply chains, hyperinflation, and the resultant political and economic turmoil that comes with it, is a far greater danger than the NHS becoming overwhelmed, or whatever it is the next strain you're worried about.

    The danger is no longer a virus, the danger is what happens in a systemic collapse of the global economy and the likely political instability that goes with it. Because that is where locking down indefinitely, time after time, eventually gets you.

    The answer is to accept that it is endemic, take your vaccine, get your boosters, get on with life. That is what most of us are doing.
    "This variant is contagious enough that not even a strict lockdown could get R below 1. "

    Although I broadly agree with the rest of your piece, I don't think that is true at all. The reality is that if people don't leave their homes, who are they going to give Covid to?
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,829
    Scott_xP said:

    Don't tell them your name, Pike...

    🇬🇧 A Whitehall style guide advises civil servants to avoid using the word “Brexit” and instead refer to “31 December 2020”
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2021/12/29/avoid-using-word-brexit-whitehall-style-guide-advises-civil/

    So we are going to have the Festival of 31 December 2020? And Mr Johnson will assure us that 'I got 31 December 2020 fixed'?
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,829
    RobD said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Don't tell them your name, Pike...

    🇬🇧 A Whitehall style guide advises civil servants to avoid using the word “Brexit” and instead refer to “31 December 2020”
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2021/12/29/avoid-using-word-brexit-whitehall-style-guide-advises-civil/

    During the 1939-1945 conflict with Germany....
    Or the Falklands for that matter.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,991
    edited December 2021
    I am getting quite frustrated by the rather blank statements people are making.

    Even the when vaccines first were released, nobody with any standing said that would be it, COVID would be eradicated from the face of the earth. In fact they said the opposite, COVID is here for a long time to come and there will be other variants. And you will all catch it at some point.

    What they said was it would break the link between COVID and serious illness and death. All the evidence is this is still true, even with this new variant, especially if you had a booster.

    If you aren't very old or have other significant vulnerabilities, COVID really is not a high risk to you. Boris said today 90% of people in ICU are not fully vaccinated. I am a little bit taken aback by that claim, but we know from other sources 70% of cases have for a long time been unvaccinated and hospitalisations are massively over represented by them, ~50% of admissions.

    The two things that has found to be flawed from the initial assessment was it was hoped that the vaccines would really clamp down on transmission between two vaccinated people and there is a waning in protection (but that can be fixed with another shot).

    These are unfortunate and less than ideal. But it isn't like the scientists are sitting on their hands doing jack shit. We will get better versions of the vaccine, and they are already working on a much more generalised one.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,153
    DavidL said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Evening all:

    My son has Covid.

    He's 11 and vaxxed (albeit with a pediatric dose). No-one else in the family has tested positive, and we're all fully vaxxed.

    His symptoms are cold like with a sore throat.

    Really sorry to hear that Robert. The very best for the young man and a good and quick recovery.
    The virus has really increase in virulence. We weren't actually due to go skiing until tomorrow, so it actually reached us before we'd gotten to the slopes.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,401
    rcs1000 said:

    Evening all:

    My son has Covid.

    He's 11 and vaxxed (albeit with a pediatric dose). No-one else in the family has tested positive, and we're all fully vaxxed.

    His symptoms are cold like with a sore throat.

    Best of luck.
    Sounds like omicron.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,990
    Today's big jump in Covid data is grim reading for No10. Hospitalisations have always been the key metric, not cases. A Cabinet minister told me some months ago that the NHS would start to seriously struggle if admissions ever pass 10,000 again. In England alone today... (1)
    https://twitter.com/tnewtondunn/status/1476296473897754628
This discussion has been closed.