Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. Sign in or register to get started.

Starmer leads Johnson by 13% as “most capable PM” – politicalbetting.com

1468910

Comments

  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,989
    edited December 2021
    South Africa COVID update: Positivity rate hits 31%

    - New cases: 13,992
    - Average: 20,488 (+1,087)
    - Positivity rate: 31.0% (+2.1)
    - In hospital: 6,198 (+635)
    - In ICU: 420 (+15)
    - New deaths: 11
    - Average: 25 (+1)
  • Competition underway, closing noon tomorrow:

    What will be the maximum number of booster jabs reported for the U.K. on any day up to and including December 31st? Nearest estimate wins.

    16 entries so far.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,373

    HYUFD said:

    Lawrence Fox being as off the wall as ever. Apparently not getting a booster is standing up for human rights

    https://twitter.com/LozzaFox/status/1470460573737435147?s=20

    He's a dork. What was Billie Piper thinking?
    Perhaps she didn't realise that being a massive cock is not a guarantee of having a massive cock?
  • PolruanPolruan Posts: 2,083
    Farooq said:

    Farooq said:

    A little chink of light for all you SAD sufferers out there in PB land. Whilst there is still a week to go to the Winter Solstice, today marked the earliest sunset of the year. Very slowly the evenings will start to lighten from this point forward.

    Personally I like the cold, dark winter months best so see no cause for celebration but one has to be magnanimous about these things.

    I think this is location dependent. Looks like sunset tomorrow is four seconds earlier tomorrow than today up here. Not that anyone will notice, of course, but pedants dot com and all.
    Apologies, I was working on Lincolnshire time which as you probably know is about .... oooo currently 1727 AD :)

    But point taken.
    I'll admit, I only went looking because I was sure the earliest sunset happened here about a week ago.
    Either way, it's dark dark dark here this time of year.
    Still light enough (just) to cut the grass at 5pm here in west Cornwall. Annoyingly, because it's 13 degrees, the grass is still growing.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,373

    Competition underway, closing noon tomorrow:

    What will be the maximum number of booster jabs reported for the U.K. on any day up to and including December 31st? Nearest estimate wins.

    16 entries so far.

    Will the competition be reset at 1 minute to midnight, with only the leading two allowed to guess?
  • Competition underway, closing noon tomorrow:

    What will be the maximum number of booster jabs reported for the U.K. on any day up to and including December 31st? Nearest estimate wins.

    16 entries so far.

    Will Matt Hancock be counting?
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,134
    Endillion said:

    Scott_xP said:
    I do not think it is in hands anymore
    I suspect it is, unfortunately.

    Attention is going to turn now to Omicron, Christmas, how Covid affects us in the New Year.

    If the UK avoids a January lockdown then the PM will deserve credit and will be given space by his MPs. If the UK goes into lockdown then that will burn bridges with even more MPs and I expect the letters will finally go in.

    Listening to R4 PM on the way home I think the big fellow has had a great day. The vaccination programme has disposed of Partygate once and for all. Javid and Johnson have both said LFTs are widely available, and Johnson has given Putin and Iran a bloody nose today.

    Mark my words, polls on the turn.
    The interesting poll number to watch is labour and whether it continues to rise or there is drift away to the lib dems and greens

    I understand the lib dems will join the conservative rebels in voting against tomorrow
    Some naked opportunism there from the LDs.
    Not really. More like a further encouraging sign they've remembered what the "liberal" part of their name actually means.

    Clue: the common US usage of a direct synonym for "socially left wing" is completely wrong.
    Yes, Toby Young says he's a 'classical liberal' and I think what he's at pains to stress with 'classical' is 'not in the American sense'.


  • Boosters per capita

    UK 32.53%
    France 18.04%

    That doesn't look squandered to me.

    Do you think France will finish theirs this month? Do you think France are going to catch up with us any time soon?

    We squandered the advantage in that we should have been doing that kind of rate for the last month at least. If we had done so, and in particular if we'd lowered the interval to 5 or less months as I and many others suggested, we'd be in a far better position now - and that was obvious even without Omicron.
    But to be fair we are going to ay a price for the surge. Our surgery today has announced it is cancelling all but urgent appointments for the foreseeable future so that it can concentrate on boosters. Chances are people will die as a result of this or at least have serious, life threatening conditions delayed in being identified. To say that we should have done this sooner when even now it is not obvious that this is a life threatening strain is simply wrong.
    No, it's exactly the other way round. If we'd done it in a planned way, starting before the winter which is always worse for the NHS, making full use of pharmacies, and taking full advantage of the opportunity of doing boosters at the same time as boosters, we wouldn't be having to do things in a panic now, with the negative consequences which you highlight.
    It was being done in a planned way, it was already available to 30-somethings.
    Err, yes. A badly planned way.
    How was it badly planned? The vulnerable were already done. No other comparable nation even comes close. All despite the JCVIs prevarication.

    You're being petulant.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,368

    Competition underway, closing noon tomorrow:

    What will be the maximum number of booster jabs reported for the U.K. on any day up to and including December 31st? Nearest estimate wins.

    16 entries so far.

    Are you counting postal vaccines?

    (as we did testing in Spring 2020)
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,748
    Pulpstar said:

    Javid's 200,000 cases is a bit confusing. The 20 odd % is easier to reconcile, but even those are internally inconsistent.
    The dormancy period would have to be loooong for 200,000 cases to be accurate right now.

    There were 2207 KNOWN cases Omicron reported today.
    The total reported was 54,661.

    If we're at 20% Omicron (Also said by Javid I think) then it means we're sequencing 20% of cases.

    I can't see how 200,000 cases fits into all this. At least not right at this moment.

    Apparently he meant that 200,000 people have it and that is 20% of the people currently infected with COVID. That would equate to 0.3% of the population with Omicron and 1.5% of the population with COVID.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 13,494
    Foxy said:

    Scott_xP said:
    I do not think it is in hands anymore
    I suspect it is, unfortunately.

    Attention is going to turn now to Omicron, Christmas, how Covid affects us in the New Year.

    If the UK avoids a January lockdown then the PM will deserve credit and will be given space by his MPs. If the UK goes into lockdown then that will burn bridges with even more MPs and I expect the letters will finally go in.
    When asked does he still have your support he will have 300 MPs saying yes. If there was a secret ballot confidence vote today he would lose it. It’s nothing to do with no rules were broken at the parties that didn’t exist destroying all trust in him - it’s to do with his stupid speech at conference. He’s got nothing to say anymore. He’s naked. No a single sausage of ideology to explain. The vote of no confidence is coming in January even without the defeat in North Shropshire.
    No, I think that he will limp on for a while yet, until the next bit of stupidity.

    I think Starmer as next PM is looking value. The Tories are not as ruthless as the legend.
    It’s not ruthless, just plain sensible. Can this busted flush win for us? Nope. Then why are we hanging around whilst he digs us in a hole.

    The decision by the Tory Party to get rid of Boris was made months ago, that’s the people who have been hollowing out his leadership in recent weeks, not opposition party’s.
  • Competition underway, closing noon tomorrow:

    What will be the maximum number of booster jabs reported for the U.K. on any day up to and including December 31st? Nearest estimate wins.

    16 entries so far.

    Can you please put me down for 1,100,000 thanks 👍
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,912
    kinabalu said:

    Endillion said:

    Scott_xP said:
    I do not think it is in hands anymore
    I suspect it is, unfortunately.

    Attention is going to turn now to Omicron, Christmas, how Covid affects us in the New Year.

    If the UK avoids a January lockdown then the PM will deserve credit and will be given space by his MPs. If the UK goes into lockdown then that will burn bridges with even more MPs and I expect the letters will finally go in.

    Listening to R4 PM on the way home I think the big fellow has had a great day. The vaccination programme has disposed of Partygate once and for all. Javid and Johnson have both said LFTs are widely available, and Johnson has given Putin and Iran a bloody nose today.

    Mark my words, polls on the turn.
    The interesting poll number to watch is labour and whether it continues to rise or there is drift away to the lib dems and greens

    I understand the lib dems will join the conservative rebels in voting against tomorrow
    Some naked opportunism there from the LDs.
    Not really. More like a further encouraging sign they've remembered what the "liberal" part of their name actually means.

    Clue: the common US usage of a direct synonym for "socially left wing" is completely wrong.
    Yes, Toby Young says he's a 'classical liberal' and I think what he's at pains to stress with 'classical' is 'not in the American sense'.
    There is already a Libertarian party in the US which got 3% in 2016. Young would probably support them
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,908
    Excellent poll for Starmer. Even some behind the Red Wall must now think honesty's important. I can't see Johnson getting it back either. Once a brand is is soiled I can't think of many examples where it's redeemed itself. In politics I suppose the most recent example is Corbyn.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,624
    edited December 2021

    France did 800,000 boosters on Friday. In the last week they've averaged 600,000 a day. For the second time running, the UK has squandered its early advantage.

    The UK has already boosted the vulnerable and France is playing catchup from a much worse position. For the nth time running, you are making a fallacious argument.

    image
    image
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,826

    South Africa COVID update: Positivity rate hits 31%

    - New cases: 13,992
    - Average: 20,488 (+1,087)
    - Positivity rate: 31.0% (+2.1)
    - In hospital: 6,198 (+635)
    - In ICU: 420 (+15)
    - New deaths: 11
    - Average: 25 (+1)

    The news from South Africa suggests we really ought not to be worrying too much. We are a bit different of course. Probably less natural infection (though more vaccinated) an older population and it's winter here versus summer there.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,134
    Farooq said:

    HYUFD said:

    Lawrence Fox being as off the wall as ever. Apparently not getting a booster is standing up for human rights

    https://twitter.com/LozzaFox/status/1470460573737435147?s=20

    When he says

    "It will never end"

    is he talking

    about

    his fucking tweet?
    In his head it's on a par with Gettysburg.

    I notice on the same thread we have Baker getting a bit 'intense' too - urging people all across the land to join his "New Movement For Freedom".

    Stevo Stevo Stevo ...
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,859

    Scott_xP said:
    I do not think it is in hands anymore
    I suspect it is, unfortunately.

    Attention is going to turn now to Omicron, Christmas, how Covid affects us in the New Year.

    If the UK avoids a January lockdown then the PM will deserve credit and will be given space by his MPs. If the UK goes into lockdown then that will burn bridges with even more MPs and I expect the letters will finally go in.
    When asked does he still have your support he will have 300 MPs saying yes. If there was a secret ballot confidence vote today he would lose it. It’s nothing to do with no rules were broken at the parties that didn’t exist destroying all trust in him - it’s to do with his stupid speech at conference. He’s got nothing to say anymore. He’s naked. No a single sausage of ideology to explain. The vote of no confidence is coming in January even without the defeat in North Shropshire.
    More specifically, the MPs always knew of his significant potential weaknesses - but perhaps hoped that he’d mature in the job rather more than he has done. But now these weaknesses are on show for everyone to see, on top of which the reason he was appointed - his election winning magic - is draining away.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298
    edited December 2021
    Good evening.

    I have been away from PB for a few days while packing.

    I predicted over two weeks ago now that Omicron would be milder, and the evidence slowly builds in support of that.

    Meanwhile, and not wanting to go all conspiracy theory, I still haven’t seen anything which supports a significant R-dampening effect of the measures announced last week, nor any metrics to define how close we are/aren’t to the “NHS collapsing”.

    Therefore, personally, I would still vote against the measures tomorrow.

    As for Boris, he was, is and remains a disgrace, but he will survive this time (even if he loses NS) and the Tories will limp on. And in no way has Keir “sealed the deal”.
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 4,931

    Chris said:

    HYUFD said:

    Sajid Javid says vaccine passport will not be valid unless people have had two jabs and a booster, rather than just two jabs, "once all adults have had a reasonable chance to get their booster jab.
    https://twitter.com/PoliticsForAlI/status/1470433280348639235?s=20

    Suggests the government will expand vaxports to cinemas, restaurants, theatres, pubs etc from January if needed to get more getting their boosters

    Good, about time. Those that selfishly decide it is too much risk for them to have a needle in their arm can stay at home.
    It is tedious but apparently necessary to remind you that more died in the experimental group than the control group, at a time when I think the COVID strain was Alpha.

    Normal medical ethics requires risk-benefit comparisons for the patients treated. Otherwise one risks killing more than one saves. Are you suggesting doing that?

    This may suggest that what critics predicted in spring 2021 is happening, i.e. new variants are arising in the vaccinated ( aka vaccine-resistant viruses, cf antibiotic-resistant bacteria).

    https://t.co/Nnt9YVi3vO

    If it's confirmed that Omicron has an IFR 20x lower than Delta, or 0.004%, it's no longer COVID; it's already mutated into a common cold coronavirus. Anyone who can't cope with a severe cold should be in a care home. Or, if younger, they should get help strengthening their immune system.
    And if it's confirmed the Moon is made of cheese it will be enough to feed the world's population for millennia.
    Apart the lactose intolerant ones of course... :D
    The lactose content of most hard and aged cheese is low enough for many lactose-intolerant people to eat them. However the moon is actually made of green, ie fresh, cheese so it is not suitable.
    Only on PB. 😎
  • Pulpstar said:

    Javid's 200,000 cases is a bit confusing. The 20 odd % is easier to reconcile, but even those are internally inconsistent.
    The dormancy period would have to be loooong for 200,000 cases to be accurate right now.

    There were 2207 KNOWN cases Omicron reported today.
    The total reported was 54,661.

    If we're at 20% Omicron (Also said by Javid I think) then it means we're sequencing 20% of cases.

    I can't see how 200,000 cases fits into all this. At least not right at this moment.

    So there are few options:
    Javid has no idea what he's doing and has badly mangled the numbers given to him
    Javid has given us a best guess without knowing how that was calculated
    Javid is sitting on the knowledge that this is far worse than 2,207 but lets try and keep everyone calm and focused on boosters.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,912
    Sir Keir doing his broadcast now on BBC1
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 13,494
    Farooq said:

    Foxy said:

    Scott_xP said:
    I do not think it is in hands anymore
    I suspect it is, unfortunately.

    Attention is going to turn now to Omicron, Christmas, how Covid affects us in the New Year.

    If the UK avoids a January lockdown then the PM will deserve credit and will be given space by his MPs. If the UK goes into lockdown then that will burn bridges with even more MPs and I expect the letters will finally go in.
    When asked does he still have your support he will have 300 MPs saying yes. If there was a secret ballot confidence vote today he would lose it. It’s nothing to do with no rules were broken at the parties that didn’t exist destroying all trust in him - it’s to do with his stupid speech at conference. He’s got nothing to say anymore. He’s naked. No a single sausage of ideology to explain. The vote of no confidence is coming in January even without the defeat in North Shropshire.
    No, I think that he will limp on for a while yet, until the next bit of stupidity.

    I think Starmer as next PM is looking value. The Tories are not as ruthless as the legend.
    It’s not ruthless, just plain sensible. Can this busted flush win for us? Nope. Then why are we hanging around whilst he digs us in a hole.

    The decision by the Tory Party to get rid of Boris was made months ago, that’s the people who have been hollowing out his leadership in recent weeks, not opposition party’s.
    The main person hollowing out Boris Johnson's leadership has been the man that his wife is married to.
    We never agree Farooq! The line was holding until that video was leaked. Then bang!
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 7,084
    edited December 2021
    I'm confused. Can someone help?

    Sky News are leading with the headline that Javid says Omicron is now infecting 200,000 people a day in the UK.

    I wasn't watching and I can't see this figure mentioned anywhere else. Did he really say that?!
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,989
    edited December 2021
    Its 200k new covid cases per day, of which 20% are omicron. As modelled by the UK HSA.

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/health/covid-uk-cases-omicron-latest-today-b1975243.html
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 4,931

    Competition underway, closing noon tomorrow:

    What will be the maximum number of booster jabs reported for the U.K. on any day up to and including December 31st? Nearest estimate wins.

    16 entries so far.

    1,029,762
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,376
    Starmer would be better off staying off camera and letting bojo fuck up. He’s dull and dreary. Like a wet weekend in Wigan.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298

    Pulpstar said:

    Javid's 200,000 cases is a bit confusing. The 20 odd % is easier to reconcile, but even those are internally inconsistent.
    The dormancy period would have to be loooong for 200,000 cases to be accurate right now.

    There were 2207 KNOWN cases Omicron reported today.
    The total reported was 54,661.

    If we're at 20% Omicron (Also said by Javid I think) then it means we're sequencing 20% of cases.

    I can't see how 200,000 cases fits into all this. At least not right at this moment.

    So there are few options:
    Javid has no idea what he's doing and has badly mangled the numbers given to him
    Javid has given us a best guess without knowing how that was calculated
    Javid is sitting on the knowledge that this is far worse than 2,207 but lets try and keep everyone calm and focused on boosters.
    Infection numbers are largely meaningless, whatever the number.

    The only interesting numbers are current/projected hospitalisations, ICUs, and mortality.
  • maaarshmaaarsh Posts: 3,590

    South Africa COVID update: Positivity rate hits 31%

    - New cases: 13,992
    - Average: 20,488 (+1,087)
    - Positivity rate: 31.0% (+2.1)
    - In hospital: 6,198 (+635)
    - In ICU: 420 (+15)
    - New deaths: 11
    - Average: 25 (+1)

    422 hospital admissions, so depite being ahead of us they're still running not much above half our rate of hospital admissions.
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 7,084
    edited December 2021

    Its 200k new covid cases per day, of which 20% are omicron. As modelled by the UK HSA.

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/health/covid-uk-cases-omicron-latest-today-b1975243.html

    Well that's not how Sky are reporting it:

    https://news.sky.com/

    p.s. thanks
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,989
    edited December 2021
    Heathener said:

    I'm confused. Can someone help?

    Sky News are leading with the headline that Javid says Omicron is now infecting 200,000 people a day in the UK.

    I wasn't watching and I can't see this figure mentioned anywhere else. Did he really say that?!

    Yes.... remember throughout the pandemic it is always thought cases are 3-4x official test numbers and they are backward looking. This is the HSA model that as of today the rate is now at 200k new infections per say.

    And remember its only a model...
  • PolruanPolruan Posts: 2,083



    Boosters per capita

    UK 32.53%
    France 18.04%

    That doesn't look squandered to me.

    Do you think France will finish theirs this month? Do you think France are going to catch up with us any time soon?

    We squandered the advantage in that we should have been doing that kind of rate for the last month at least. If we had done so, and in particular if we'd lowered the interval to 5 or less months as I and many others suggested, we'd be in a far better position now - and that was obvious even without Omicron.
    But to be fair we are going to ay a price for the surge. Our surgery today has announced it is cancelling all but urgent appointments for the foreseeable future so that it can concentrate on boosters. Chances are people will die as a result of this or at least have serious, life threatening conditions delayed in being identified. To say that we should have done this sooner when even now it is not obvious that this is a life threatening strain is simply wrong.
    No, it's exactly the other way round. If we'd done it in a planned way, starting before the winter which is always worse for the NHS, making full use of pharmacies, and taking full advantage of the opportunity of doing boosters at the same time as boosters, we wouldn't be having to do things in a panic now, with the negative consequences which you highlight.
    It was being done in a planned way, it was already available to 30-somethings.
    Err, yes. A badly planned way.
    How was it badly planned? The vulnerable were already done. No other comparable nation even comes close. All despite the JCVIs prevarication.

    You're being petulant.
    Couple of examples - hope they're petulant enough:

    - Despite the JVCI taking a contrarian view against international best practice causing months of delay to the decision to vaccinate 12-15 year-olds, the rollout still wasn't ready to go when finally approved, meaning that only a minority had been vaccinated by October half-term. I'm not sure that "no other comparable" nation has done this as badly, but a lot have done it better. And there's still no plan for the second vaccination in the course for this group, or for vaccination certification for them. Large numbers of infections during the past term could have been reduced, which would have helped to control case numbers in the wider community as well as protecting teenagers from the medical risks of covid and from missing out on education. As the parent of a teenager, this doesn't feel like great planning.

    - From Johnson's last "I need to move the news agenda on" announcement of expanding the availability of boosters to actual implementation was around three weeks even to amend booking criteria to take account of reducing the intra-dose time from 6 months to 5 months then to 3 months. During this period the vaccination booking website said essentially "plans to do the stuff the PM announced are coming soon, check back later". Announcing something which there seems to be no plan to implement and then scrambling to do it doesn't feel like great planning.
  • Taz said:

    Starmer would be better off staying off camera and letting bojo fuck up. He’s dull and dreary. Like a wet weekend in Wigan.

    He is exactly as you describe but he talks patriotic duty with the flag on full display
  • maaarshmaaarsh Posts: 3,590
    maaarsh said:

    South Africa COVID update: Positivity rate hits 31%

    - New cases: 13,992
    - Average: 20,488 (+1,087)
    - Positivity rate: 31.0% (+2.1)
    - In hospital: 6,198 (+635)
    - In ICU: 420 (+15)
    - New deaths: 11
    - Average: 25 (+1)

    422 hospital admissions, so depite being ahead of us they're still running not much above half our rate of hospital admissions.
    And their whole of epidemic admissions is 75% of ours, so it's not like they're a 3rd world country that just doesn't admit anyone.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,274
    Gosh, SKS is a wind bag isn't he lol!
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 7,084
    Taz said:

    Starmer would be better off staying off camera and letting bojo fuck up. He’s dull and dreary. Like a wet weekend in Wigan.

    You think this is the right moment to be light-hearted, wearing a clown suit or having an illegal party?

  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,520
    edited December 2021
    Farooq said:

    kinabalu said:

    Endillion said:

    Scott_xP said:
    I do not think it is in hands anymore
    I suspect it is, unfortunately.

    Attention is going to turn now to Omicron, Christmas, how Covid affects us in the New Year.

    If the UK avoids a January lockdown then the PM will deserve credit and will be given space by his MPs. If the UK goes into lockdown then that will burn bridges with even more MPs and I expect the letters will finally go in.

    Listening to R4 PM on the way home I think the big fellow has had a great day. The vaccination programme has disposed of Partygate once and for all. Javid and Johnson have both said LFTs are widely available, and Johnson has given Putin and Iran a bloody nose today.

    Mark my words, polls on the turn.
    The interesting poll number to watch is labour and whether it continues to rise or there is drift away to the lib dems and greens

    I understand the lib dems will join the conservative rebels in voting against tomorrow
    Some naked opportunism there from the LDs.
    Not really. More like a further encouraging sign they've remembered what the "liberal" part of their name actually means.

    Clue: the common US usage of a direct synonym for "socially left wing" is completely wrong.
    Yes, Toby Young says he's a 'classical liberal' and I think what he's at pains to stress with 'classical' is 'not in the American sense'.
    People who have "classical liberal" in their Twitter bio are usually fash without the tache.
    He is right that there is a fundamental difference between British and American Libertarianism. The UK version is much closer to the old 19th century liberalism whilst the US version is more of the Tea party variety. Guns and God.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,912
    Taz said:

    Starmer would be better off staying off camera and letting bojo fuck up. He’s dull and dreary. Like a wet weekend in Wigan.

    Well if he becomes PM you will have to get used to it.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,748

    Pulpstar said:

    Javid's 200,000 cases is a bit confusing. The 20 odd % is easier to reconcile, but even those are internally inconsistent.
    The dormancy period would have to be loooong for 200,000 cases to be accurate right now.

    There were 2207 KNOWN cases Omicron reported today.
    The total reported was 54,661.

    If we're at 20% Omicron (Also said by Javid I think) then it means we're sequencing 20% of cases.

    I can't see how 200,000 cases fits into all this. At least not right at this moment.

    So there are few options:
    Javid has no idea what he's doing and has badly mangled the numbers given to him
    Javid has given us a best guess without knowing how that was calculated
    Javid is sitting on the knowledge that this is far worse than 2,207 but lets try and keep everyone calm and focused on boosters.
    The percentage is not really out of line with the other figures that have been stated, given that it's estimated to be doubling in 2-3 days, which means about a factor of 8 in a week (it would mean 2.5% a week ago). A million people infected with COVID is consistent with the ONS estimates of 1.5-2% of the population (bearing in mind that positive test results are only a fraction of infections and that it takes longer than a week to clear the infection).
  • Taz said:

    Starmer would be better off staying off camera and letting bojo fuck up. He’s dull and dreary. Like a wet weekend in Wigan.

    That's demeaning to Wigan.

    What a yawn Starmer is. He's no Corbyn, but he's not Prime Ministerial material either.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,134

    Pulpstar said:

    Javid's 200,000 cases is a bit confusing. The 20 odd % is easier to reconcile, but even those are internally inconsistent.
    The dormancy period would have to be loooong for 200,000 cases to be accurate right now.

    There were 2207 KNOWN cases Omicron reported today.
    The total reported was 54,661.

    If we're at 20% Omicron (Also said by Javid I think) then it means we're sequencing 20% of cases.

    I can't see how 200,000 cases fits into all this. At least not right at this moment.

    So there are few options:
    Javid has no idea what he's doing and has badly mangled the numbers given to him
    Javid has given us a best guess without knowing how that was calculated
    Javid is sitting on the knowledge that this is far worse than 2,207 but lets try and keep everyone calm and focused on boosters.
    Infection numbers are largely meaningless, whatever the number.

    The only interesting numbers are current/projected hospitalisations, ICUs, and mortality.
    But projected hozzies need projected infections as an input.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,989
    edited December 2021
    Heathener said:

    Its 200k new covid cases per day, of which 20% are omicron. As modelled by the UK HSA.

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/health/covid-uk-cases-omicron-latest-today-b1975243.html

    Well that's not how Sky are reporting it:

    https://news.sky.com/

    p.s. thanks
    You see the mistake you made their is turning on sky news....i did this morning and nearly broke it wirh Kay Burley spouting antivaxxers nonsense.
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 7,084

    Heathener said:

    I'm confused. Can someone help?

    Sky News are leading with the headline that Javid says Omicron is now infecting 200,000 people a day in the UK.

    I wasn't watching and I can't see this figure mentioned anywhere else. Did he really say that?!

    Yes.... remember throughout the pandemic it is always thought cases are 3-4x official test numbers and they are backward looking. This is the HSA model that as of today the rate is now at 200k new infections per say.

    And remember its only a model...
    Yes I'm just surprised Javid said it as the real figure. I thought the Gov't have always denied this.

    I like ZOE which I follow fairly closely. They're estimating 84,000 a day at the moment.

    https://covid.joinzoe.com/

  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298
    kinabalu said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Javid's 200,000 cases is a bit confusing. The 20 odd % is easier to reconcile, but even those are internally inconsistent.
    The dormancy period would have to be loooong for 200,000 cases to be accurate right now.

    There were 2207 KNOWN cases Omicron reported today.
    The total reported was 54,661.

    If we're at 20% Omicron (Also said by Javid I think) then it means we're sequencing 20% of cases.

    I can't see how 200,000 cases fits into all this. At least not right at this moment.

    So there are few options:
    Javid has no idea what he's doing and has badly mangled the numbers given to him
    Javid has given us a best guess without knowing how that was calculated
    Javid is sitting on the knowledge that this is far worse than 2,207 but lets try and keep everyone calm and focused on boosters.
    Infection numbers are largely meaningless, whatever the number.

    The only interesting numbers are current/projected hospitalisations, ICUs, and mortality.
    But projected hozzies need projected infections as an input.
    Sure, but the gross infection number is meaningless to the general public (and MPs).
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 7,084

    Heathener said:

    Its 200k new covid cases per day, of which 20% are omicron. As modelled by the UK HSA.

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/health/covid-uk-cases-omicron-latest-today-b1975243.html

    Well that's not how Sky are reporting it:

    https://news.sky.com/

    p.s. thanks
    You see the mistake you made their is turning on sky news....i did this morning and nearly broke it wirh Kay Burley spouting antivaxxers nonsense.
    Lol.

    I don't watch them in fact. It's their website. But I know what you mean ;)
  • I was wondering on here the other day what Levitt had on SA so far:



    Michael Levitt
    @MLevitt_NP2013
    ·
    2h
    South Africa has daily Omicron cases with least daily deaths since May 2020. Need a week to get deaths/case.

    The latest outbreak of Omicron daily cases starts near zero. It is beautifully Gompertz with J(t) becoming a dropping straight-line blue line).
  • Heathener said:

    Heathener said:

    I'm confused. Can someone help?

    Sky News are leading with the headline that Javid says Omicron is now infecting 200,000 people a day in the UK.

    I wasn't watching and I can't see this figure mentioned anywhere else. Did he really say that?!

    Yes.... remember throughout the pandemic it is always thought cases are 3-4x official test numbers and they are backward looking. This is the HSA model that as of today the rate is now at 200k new infections per say.

    And remember its only a model...
    Yes I'm just surprised Javid said it as the real figure. I thought the Gov't have always denied this.

    I like ZOE which I follow fairly closely. They're estimating 84,000 a day at the moment.

    https://covid.joinzoe.com/

    Since Javid took over he has liked to quote these models. Remember he talked about 100-200k cases as the exit wave peak and we never got over 50k.
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 7,084
    'The NHS which was founded by the Labour Party' is a good line.

    He is a bit dreary but tbh this really isn't the time for someone light-hearted and frivolous. Oh wait ...
  • SA will peak at 36K cases says Levitt based on his maths.
  • maaarshmaaarsh Posts: 3,590
    kinabalu said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Javid's 200,000 cases is a bit confusing. The 20 odd % is easier to reconcile, but even those are internally inconsistent.
    The dormancy period would have to be loooong for 200,000 cases to be accurate right now.

    There were 2207 KNOWN cases Omicron reported today.
    The total reported was 54,661.

    If we're at 20% Omicron (Also said by Javid I think) then it means we're sequencing 20% of cases.

    I can't see how 200,000 cases fits into all this. At least not right at this moment.

    So there are few options:
    Javid has no idea what he's doing and has badly mangled the numbers given to him
    Javid has given us a best guess without knowing how that was calculated
    Javid is sitting on the knowledge that this is far worse than 2,207 but lets try and keep everyone calm and focused on boosters.
    Infection numbers are largely meaningless, whatever the number.

    The only interesting numbers are current/projected hospitalisations, ICUs, and mortality.
    But projected hozzies need projected infections as an input.
    An infection number with no context as to trend is meaningless though, just a bit scary number to scare the thick little people as far as the government are concerned.

    Testing volumes are going up quicker than cases at the moment, so unless it is incredibly poorly targetted, it's very hard to see how the infection level can be rising much overall.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,624
    GIN1138 said:

    Gosh, SKS is a wind bag isn't he lol!

    That's his prime ministerial tone.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,957
    BBC is going all out featuring first UK death "with" Omicron.

    And that's all we get.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,424

    Taz said:

    Starmer would be better off staying off camera and letting bojo fuck up. He’s dull and dreary. Like a wet weekend in Wigan.

    That's demeaning to Wigan.

    What a yawn Starmer is. He's no Corbyn, but he's not Prime Ministerial material either.
    Mrs C and I thought he came across well.
  • Polruan said:



    Boosters per capita

    UK 32.53%
    France 18.04%

    That doesn't look squandered to me.

    Do you think France will finish theirs this month? Do you think France are going to catch up with us any time soon?

    We squandered the advantage in that we should have been doing that kind of rate for the last month at least. If we had done so, and in particular if we'd lowered the interval to 5 or less months as I and many others suggested, we'd be in a far better position now - and that was obvious even without Omicron.
    But to be fair we are going to ay a price for the surge. Our surgery today has announced it is cancelling all but urgent appointments for the foreseeable future so that it can concentrate on boosters. Chances are people will die as a result of this or at least have serious, life threatening conditions delayed in being identified. To say that we should have done this sooner when even now it is not obvious that this is a life threatening strain is simply wrong.
    But if we had planned for this back in the first half of the year when it was already becoming obvious that it would be needed, we could have phased it over a longer period meaning less resource needed, and trained up more people to deliver boosters, overall giving a much lower impact on ongoing services.

    What I don't understand about the no-restrictions vaccines-only viewpoint (I'm not attributing this to you) is that its advocates seem very quiet about the increase in healthcare capacity needed to allow endemic covid to exist alongside functional routine medical services. Maybe we will have to "live with it" one day, but what does that mean in terms of permanent jobs delivering vaccines/boosters and increased ICU capacity?
    I would certainly agree that one thing we could learn from this is to have a permanent vaccine arm of the NHS separate from the rest. They would do all the routine vaccinations from childhood onwards including seasonal flu vaccines. The trouble is that under the current funding arrangements that would not be popular with GPs as they make a not insignificant amount of their income from the flu vaccine season.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,748

    Its 200k new covid cases per day, of which 20% are omicron. As modelled by the UK HSA.

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/health/covid-uk-cases-omicron-latest-today-b1975243.html

    That's what he said, but according to the Guardian it's been "clarified" as:
    "Javid was indeed referring to Omicron infections, not Covid infections.
    But he was speaking about a UK Health Security Agency estimate for the total number of people currently infected with Omicron, not the number who are catching the infection for the first time every day (ie daily new cases)."
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,188

    Its 200k new covid cases per day, of which 20% are omicron. As modelled by the UK HSA.

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/health/covid-uk-cases-omicron-latest-today-b1975243.html

    From Hansard:

    There are now 4,713 confirmed cases of omicron in the UK. The UK Health Security Agency estimates that the current number of daily infections are around 200,000

    Sorry if he meant there were now 200,000 covid cases he really should have said that. He doesn't. There is NO reference to Covid generally; his last reference is to Omicron. So you HAVE to take Javid's statement that there are 200,000 Omicron cases a day - not Covid. His subsequent "While omicron represents more than 20% of cases in England, we have already seen it rise to over 44% in London, and we expect it to become the dominant covid-19 variant in the capital in the next 48 hours." doesn't change that. He's badly mangled the record to the point of meaninglessness.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,368
    GIN1138 said:

    Gosh, SKS is a wind bag isn't he lol!

    Taz said:

    Starmer would be better off staying off camera and letting bojo fuck up. He’s dull and dreary. Like a wet weekend in Wigan.

    That's demeaning to Wigan.

    What a yawn Starmer is. He's no Corbyn, but he's not Prime Ministerial material either.
    The fightback begins!
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 13,494
    edited December 2021
    IanB2 said:

    Scott_xP said:
    I do not think it is in hands anymore
    I suspect it is, unfortunately.

    Attention is going to turn now to Omicron, Christmas, how Covid affects us in the New Year.

    If the UK avoids a January lockdown then the PM will deserve credit and will be given space by his MPs. If the UK goes into lockdown then that will burn bridges with even more MPs and I expect the letters will finally go in.
    When asked does he still have your support he will have 300 MPs saying yes. If there was a secret ballot confidence vote today he would lose it. It’s nothing to do with no rules were broken at the parties that didn’t exist destroying all trust in him - it’s to do with his stupid speech at conference. He’s got nothing to say anymore. He’s naked. No a single sausage of ideology to explain. The vote of no confidence is coming in January even without the defeat in North Shropshire.
    More specifically, the MPs always knew of his significant potential weaknesses - but perhaps hoped that he’d mature in the job rather more than he has done. But now these weaknesses are on show for everyone to see, on top of which the reason he was appointed - his election winning magic - is draining away.
    It’s gone Ian. Before they pulled the plug on Boris after his awful conference speech his own party already knew this.

    A challenge to anyone on here who thinks Boris can win the next general election, what is the basket of ideas currently driving his government, building next election win, that sit under the heading Borism?

    Last election platform was 1) end to Tory austerity 2) get Brexit done 3) keep Corbyn out.

    What wins the next election for him? Believing he will deliver Levelling Up?

    What is Borism?


  • Boosters per capita

    UK 32.53%
    France 18.04%

    That doesn't look squandered to me.

    Do you think France will finish theirs this month? Do you think France are going to catch up with us any time soon?

    We squandered the advantage in that we should have been doing that kind of rate for the last month at least. If we had done so, and in particular if we'd lowered the interval to 5 or less months as I and many others suggested, we'd be in a far better position now - and that was obvious even without Omicron.
    But to be fair we are going to ay a price for the surge. Our surgery today has announced it is cancelling all but urgent appointments for the foreseeable future so that it can concentrate on boosters. Chances are people will die as a result of this or at least have serious, life threatening conditions delayed in being identified. To say that we should have done this sooner when even now it is not obvious that this is a life threatening strain is simply wrong.
    No, it's exactly the other way round. If we'd done it in a planned way, starting before the winter which is always worse for the NHS, making full use of pharmacies, and taking full advantage of the opportunity of doing boosters at the same time as flu jabs, we wouldn't be having to do things in a panic now, with the negative consequences which you highlight.
    Which kind of misses the fact that there have been continual vaccinations going on ever since last winter. First and second jabs for everyone, followed by and overlapping with jabs for schoolkids - many of whom are still only on their first jab - and then boosters. Certainly our local vaccination centre has never stopped.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,748

    Heathener said:

    Its 200k new covid cases per day, of which 20% are omicron. As modelled by the UK HSA.

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/health/covid-uk-cases-omicron-latest-today-b1975243.html

    Well that's not how Sky are reporting it:

    https://news.sky.com/

    p.s. thanks
    You see the mistake you made their is turning on sky news....i did this morning and nearly broke it wirh Kay Burley spouting antivaxxers nonsense.
    You need to think!

    200,000 Omicron infections a day would put it far in excess of the number of Delta infections, not at 20%.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,134

    Farooq said:

    kinabalu said:

    Endillion said:

    Scott_xP said:
    I do not think it is in hands anymore
    I suspect it is, unfortunately.

    Attention is going to turn now to Omicron, Christmas, how Covid affects us in the New Year.

    If the UK avoids a January lockdown then the PM will deserve credit and will be given space by his MPs. If the UK goes into lockdown then that will burn bridges with even more MPs and I expect the letters will finally go in.

    Listening to R4 PM on the way home I think the big fellow has had a great day. The vaccination programme has disposed of Partygate once and for all. Javid and Johnson have both said LFTs are widely available, and Johnson has given Putin and Iran a bloody nose today.

    Mark my words, polls on the turn.
    The interesting poll number to watch is labour and whether it continues to rise or there is drift away to the lib dems and greens

    I understand the lib dems will join the conservative rebels in voting against tomorrow
    Some naked opportunism there from the LDs.
    Not really. More like a further encouraging sign they've remembered what the "liberal" part of their name actually means.

    Clue: the common US usage of a direct synonym for "socially left wing" is completely wrong.
    Yes, Toby Young says he's a 'classical liberal' and I think what he's at pains to stress with 'classical' is 'not in the American sense'.
    People who have "classical liberal" in their Twitter bio are usually fash without the tache.
    He is right that there is a fundamental difference between British and American Libertarianism. The UK version is much closer to the old 19th century liberalism whilst the US version is more of the Tea party variety. Guns and God.
    Yep, but what Tobe is stressing here is that he aint no US style 'liberal', ie like the woke Dems. He's not a liberal in that sense. He's more of a John Stuart Mill type of thinker. That's as HE sees it, is what I mean. I'm personally not equating him with John Stuart Mill.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,957
    Chris said:

    Its 200k new covid cases per day, of which 20% are omicron. As modelled by the UK HSA.

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/health/covid-uk-cases-omicron-latest-today-b1975243.html

    That's what he said, but according to the Guardian it's been "clarified" as:
    "Javid was indeed referring to Omicron infections, not Covid infections.
    But he was speaking about a UK Health Security Agency estimate for the total number of people currently infected with Omicron, not the number who are catching the infection for the first time every day (ie daily new cases)."
    Hey Chrissy

    What would you do right now. You're PM with a huge majority that will vote for whatever you say.

    What's the plan.
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 7,084
    In the right circumstances dull people can make ideal PM's. We're just used to very charismatic types these days and it may be that the times have changed so much that we can't cope without a song and dance man tripping the light fantastic.

    Frothy PM's of my lifetime: Tony Blair, Boris Johnson

    Serious and dull PM's of my lifetime: Jim Callaghan, John Major, Gordon Brown, Theresa May, Harold Wilson (to an extent), Margaret Thatcher, Ted Heath

    Nowhere to place: David Cameron. Frothy on substance, serious in style. Quite the combo!
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,989
    edited December 2021
    Chris said:

    Heathener said:

    Its 200k new covid cases per day, of which 20% are omicron. As modelled by the UK HSA.

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/health/covid-uk-cases-omicron-latest-today-b1975243.html

    Well that's not how Sky are reporting it:

    https://news.sky.com/

    p.s. thanks
    You see the mistake you made their is turning on sky news....i did this morning and nearly broke it wirh Kay Burley spouting antivaxxers nonsense.
    You need to think!

    200,000 Omicron infections a day would put it far in excess of the number of Delta infections, not at 20%.
    That isnt what is becoming said. Its 200k new (all covid variants) infections per day, based on a model, that has throughout the pandemic been roughly 3x higher than official case numbers. If that is accurate or not, is another matter.
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 7,084

    Chris said:

    Heathener said:

    Its 200k new covid cases per day, of which 20% are omicron. As modelled by the UK HSA.

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/health/covid-uk-cases-omicron-latest-today-b1975243.html

    Well that's not how Sky are reporting it:

    https://news.sky.com/

    p.s. thanks
    You see the mistake you made their is turning on sky news....i did this morning and nearly broke it wirh Kay Burley spouting antivaxxers nonsense.
    You need to think!

    200,000 Omicron infections a day would put it far in excess of the number of Delta infections, not at 20%.
    That isnt what is becoming said. Its 200k (all covid) infections.
    That is NOT what Sky News are reporting.

    As I said, they are reporting that he said there are 200,000 Omicron infections per day now.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    IanB2 said:

    Scott_xP said:
    I do not think it is in hands anymore
    I suspect it is, unfortunately.

    Attention is going to turn now to Omicron, Christmas, how Covid affects us in the New Year.

    If the UK avoids a January lockdown then the PM will deserve credit and will be given space by his MPs. If the UK goes into lockdown then that will burn bridges with even more MPs and I expect the letters will finally go in.
    When asked does he still have your support he will have 300 MPs saying yes. If there was a secret ballot confidence vote today he would lose it. It’s nothing to do with no rules were broken at the parties that didn’t exist destroying all trust in him - it’s to do with his stupid speech at conference. He’s got nothing to say anymore. He’s naked. No a single sausage of ideology to explain. The vote of no confidence is coming in January even without the defeat in North Shropshire.
    More specifically, the MPs always knew of his significant potential weaknesses - but perhaps hoped that he’d mature in the job rather more than he has done. But now these weaknesses are on show for everyone to see, on top of which the reason he was appointed - his election winning magic - is draining away.
    It’s gone Ian. Before they pulled the plug on Boris after his awful conference speech his own party already knew this.

    A challenge to anyone on here who thinks Boris can win the next general election, what is the basket of ideas currently driving his government, building next election win, that sit under the heading Borism?

    Last election platform was 1) end to Tory austerity 2) get Brexit done 3) keep Corbyn out.

    What wins the next election for him? Believing he will deliver Levelling Up?

    What is Borism?
    What a downer of a post. I can tell you have never been to Peppa Pig World.
  • jonny83jonny83 Posts: 1,270
    Stumbled on this interesting read from Sept 2020 on why South Africa was experiencing lower death rates compared to countries in Europe back then during that early wave. Even mentions them seeing 'milder illness' and looks at factors why this might be the case:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-53998374

  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 7,084
    Pulpstar said:

    Its 200k new covid cases per day, of which 20% are omicron. As modelled by the UK HSA.

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/health/covid-uk-cases-omicron-latest-today-b1975243.html

    From Hansard:

    There are now 4,713 confirmed cases of omicron in the UK. The UK Health Security Agency estimates that the current number of daily infections are around 200,000

    Sorry if he meant there were now 200,000 covid cases he really should have said that. He doesn't. There is NO reference to Covid generally; his last reference is to Omicron. So you HAVE to take Javid's statement that there are 200,000 Omicron cases a day - not Covid. His subsequent "While omicron represents more than 20% of cases in England, we have already seen it rise to over 44% in London, and we expect it to become the dominant covid-19 variant in the capital in the next 48 hours." doesn't change that. He's badly mangled the record to the point of meaninglessness.
    Yes.

    That's exactly what Sky News is reporting him to have said
  • Polruan said:



    Boosters per capita

    UK 32.53%
    France 18.04%

    That doesn't look squandered to me.

    Do you think France will finish theirs this month? Do you think France are going to catch up with us any time soon?

    We squandered the advantage in that we should have been doing that kind of rate for the last month at least. If we had done so, and in particular if we'd lowered the interval to 5 or less months as I and many others suggested, we'd be in a far better position now - and that was obvious even without Omicron.
    But to be fair we are going to ay a price for the surge. Our surgery today has announced it is cancelling all but urgent appointments for the foreseeable future so that it can concentrate on boosters. Chances are people will die as a result of this or at least have serious, life threatening conditions delayed in being identified. To say that we should have done this sooner when even now it is not obvious that this is a life threatening strain is simply wrong.
    No, it's exactly the other way round. If we'd done it in a planned way, starting before the winter which is always worse for the NHS, making full use of pharmacies, and taking full advantage of the opportunity of doing boosters at the same time as boosters, we wouldn't be having to do things in a panic now, with the negative consequences which you highlight.
    It was being done in a planned way, it was already available to 30-somethings.
    Err, yes. A badly planned way.
    How was it badly planned? The vulnerable were already done. No other comparable nation even comes close. All despite the JCVIs prevarication.

    You're being petulant.
    Couple of examples - hope they're petulant enough:

    - Despite the JVCI taking a contrarian view against international best practice causing months of delay to the decision to vaccinate 12-15 year-olds, the rollout still wasn't ready to go when finally approved, meaning that only a minority had been vaccinated by October half-term. I'm not sure that "no other comparable" nation has done this as badly, but a lot have done it better. And there's still no plan for the second vaccination in the course for this group, or for vaccination certification for them. Large numbers of infections during the past term could have been reduced, which would have helped to control case numbers in the wider community as well as protecting teenagers from the medical risks of covid and from missing out on education. As the parent of a teenager, this doesn't feel like great planning.

    - From Johnson's last "I need to move the news agenda on" announcement of expanding the availability of boosters to actual implementation was around three weeks even to amend booking criteria to take account of reducing the intra-dose time from 6 months to 5 months then to 3 months. During this period the vaccination booking website said essentially "plans to do the stuff the PM announced are coming soon, check back later". Announcing something which there seems to be no plan to implement and then scrambling to do it doesn't feel like great planning.
    On the first point prevarication over the young lies squarely with the JCVI.

    On the second you're being entirely unreasonable. The boosters were expanded but they explicitly said they would stick with the priority regimen. So yes as a thirty nine year old my eligibility was only accepted on the weekend but that wasn't because they had no plan to implement ... It is because they quite rightly stuck with the plan of jabbing those who were older and vulnerable first.

    It makes no sense to be vaccinating not vulnerable 39 year olds before all 49 or 59 year olds have been done first. That's sticking with the plan and if you look at the by age breakdown chart @CarlottaVance shared earlier it's worked.

    Not only has the UK done double the booster jabs that any other comparable nation, but they've gone to the right people.
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 5,578

    IanB2 said:

    Scott_xP said:
    I do not think it is in hands anymore
    I suspect it is, unfortunately.

    Attention is going to turn now to Omicron, Christmas, how Covid affects us in the New Year.

    If the UK avoids a January lockdown then the PM will deserve credit and will be given space by his MPs. If the UK goes into lockdown then that will burn bridges with even more MPs and I expect the letters will finally go in.
    When asked does he still have your support he will have 300 MPs saying yes. If there was a secret ballot confidence vote today he would lose it. It’s nothing to do with no rules were broken at the parties that didn’t exist destroying all trust in him - it’s to do with his stupid speech at conference. He’s got nothing to say anymore. He’s naked. No a single sausage of ideology to explain. The vote of no confidence is coming in January even without the defeat in North Shropshire.
    More specifically, the MPs always knew of his significant potential weaknesses - but perhaps hoped that he’d mature in the job rather more than he has done. But now these weaknesses are on show for everyone to see, on top of which the reason he was appointed - his election winning magic - is draining away.
    It’s gone Ian. Before they pulled the plug on Boris after his awful conference speech his own party already knew this.

    A challenge to anyone on here who thinks Boris can win the next general election, what is the basket of ideas currently driving his government building next election win that sit under the heading Borism?

    Last election platform was 1) end to Tory austerity 2) get Brexit done 3) keep Corbyn out.

    What wins the next election for him? Believing he will deliver Levelling Up?

    What is Borism?
    And what is Starmerism?

    Seriously. What would a Starmer Govt look like?

    RW Tory voters not only voted for Brexit but also because they were sick and tired of the Labour Party seeing them as a bunch of gammon racists with outmoded views, and whom they despised. Despite Starmer’s attempts, I don’t see any change in that view. The idea that Yvette Cooper handling immigration will soothe voter fears is a laugh.

    The Tories have a leadership issue. BJ may or may not get out of this (he knows his History - he will have plenty of historical examples of how to do a u-turn) but, if he doesn’t, the Tories get someone else and off they go.

    Labour have a fundamental strategic problem. That is far harder to solve.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,912
    edited December 2021
    Heathener said:

    In the right circumstances dull people can make ideal PM's. We're just used to very charismatic types these days and it may be that the times have changed so much that we can't cope without a song and dance man tripping the light fantastic.

    Frothy PM's of my lifetime: Tony Blair, Boris Johnson

    Serious and dull PM's of my lifetime: Jim Callaghan, John Major, Gordon Brown, Theresa May, Harold Wilson (to an extent), Margaret Thatcher, Ted Heath

    Nowhere to place: David Cameron. Frothy on substance, serious in style. Quite the combo!

    Thatcher was charismatic, she was certainly not dull.

    Though yes some dull PMs and leaders do OK, Attlee too of course and John Howard in Australia and Merkel in Germany, all dull as dishwater but competent and effective.

    Albeit some dull leaders end up disasters eg Hollande in France or final years Major and Brown and May
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,957
    Heathener said:

    Chris said:

    Heathener said:

    Its 200k new covid cases per day, of which 20% are omicron. As modelled by the UK HSA.

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/health/covid-uk-cases-omicron-latest-today-b1975243.html

    Well that's not how Sky are reporting it:

    https://news.sky.com/

    p.s. thanks
    You see the mistake you made their is turning on sky news....i did this morning and nearly broke it wirh Kay Burley spouting antivaxxers nonsense.
    You need to think!

    200,000 Omicron infections a day would put it far in excess of the number of Delta infections, not at 20%.
    That isnt what is becoming said. Its 200k (all covid) infections.
    That is NOT what Sky News are reporting.

    As I said, they are reporting that he said there are 200,000 Omicron infections per day now.
    200,000 Omicron infections a day = (per Javid) 1m Covid infections.

    Has the engine just cut out on the doodlebug and we're waiting for impact.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,989
    edited December 2021
    Heathener said:

    Chris said:

    Heathener said:

    Its 200k new covid cases per day, of which 20% are omicron. As modelled by the UK HSA.

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/health/covid-uk-cases-omicron-latest-today-b1975243.html

    Well that's not how Sky are reporting it:

    https://news.sky.com/

    p.s. thanks
    You see the mistake you made their is turning on sky news....i did this morning and nearly broke it wirh Kay Burley spouting antivaxxers nonsense.
    You need to think!

    200,000 Omicron infections a day would put it far in excess of the number of Delta infections, not at 20%.
    That isnt what is becoming said. Its 200k (all covid) infections.
    That is NOT what Sky News are reporting.

    As I said, they are reporting that he said there are 200,000 Omicron infections per day now.
    Well that is nonsense. Think about it logically. That would mean a million new cases a day now. That juat isn't possible. Also, although they only sequence a small percentage, we woild be getting 10ks of omicron cases being reported by that stat.

    Its basically case numbers x3-4....which is what today 60k, times be 3, thats basically your 200k.
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 7,084

    Heathener said:

    Chris said:

    Heathener said:

    Its 200k new covid cases per day, of which 20% are omicron. As modelled by the UK HSA.

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/health/covid-uk-cases-omicron-latest-today-b1975243.html

    Well that's not how Sky are reporting it:

    https://news.sky.com/

    p.s. thanks
    You see the mistake you made their is turning on sky news....i did this morning and nearly broke it wirh Kay Burley spouting antivaxxers nonsense.
    You need to think!

    200,000 Omicron infections a day would put it far in excess of the number of Delta infections, not at 20%.
    That isnt what is becoming said. Its 200k (all covid) infections.
    That is NOT what Sky News are reporting.

    As I said, they are reporting that he said there are 200,000 Omicron infections per day now.
    Well that is nonsense. Think about it logically. That would mean a million new cases a day now. That juat isn't possible.

    Would you please STOP f-ing making this about me?!!!!!!!!!!

    I am reporting what Sky News are saying Javid said. I'm not the Health Secretary, sadly.
  • PolruanPolruan Posts: 2,083



    Boosters per capita

    UK 32.53%
    France 18.04%

    That doesn't look squandered to me.

    Do you think France will finish theirs this month? Do you think France are going to catch up with us any time soon?

    We squandered the advantage in that we should have been doing that kind of rate for the last month at least. If we had done so, and in particular if we'd lowered the interval to 5 or less months as I and many others suggested, we'd be in a far better position now - and that was obvious even without Omicron.
    But to be fair we are going to ay a price for the surge. Our surgery today has announced it is cancelling all but urgent appointments for the foreseeable future so that it can concentrate on boosters. Chances are people will die as a result of this or at least have serious, life threatening conditions delayed in being identified. To say that we should have done this sooner when even now it is not obvious that this is a life threatening strain is simply wrong.
    No, it's exactly the other way round. If we'd done it in a planned way, starting before the winter which is always worse for the NHS, making full use of pharmacies, and taking full advantage of the opportunity of doing boosters at the same time as flu jabs, we wouldn't be having to do things in a panic now, with the negative consequences which you highlight.
    Which kind of misses the fact that there have been continual vaccinations going on ever since last winter. First and second jabs for everyone, followed by and overlapping with jabs for schoolkids - many of whom are still only on their first jab - and then boosters. Certainly our local vaccination centre has never stopped.
    Postcode lottery anecdote I guess, but our vaccination centres seemed to wind down August/September with boosters etc delivered just via GPs in early autumn. School vaccination programme literally didn't start in September or October. Walk-in vaccination centre for under 18s opened at the end of October 40 miles away (we were there on the first day I think). When booster booking opened up in November it was all for GP surgery appointments and not until late December - at the beginning of December some one-day special centres started opening in our town again.

    We live in a fairly remote area, but I think this might be typical for those not living near larger urban centres.
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 7,084
    TOPPING said:

    Heathener said:

    Chris said:

    Heathener said:

    Its 200k new covid cases per day, of which 20% are omicron. As modelled by the UK HSA.

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/health/covid-uk-cases-omicron-latest-today-b1975243.html

    Well that's not how Sky are reporting it:

    https://news.sky.com/

    p.s. thanks
    You see the mistake you made their is turning on sky news....i did this morning and nearly broke it wirh Kay Burley spouting antivaxxers nonsense.
    You need to think!

    200,000 Omicron infections a day would put it far in excess of the number of Delta infections, not at 20%.
    That isnt what is becoming said. Its 200k (all covid) infections.
    That is NOT what Sky News are reporting.

    As I said, they are reporting that he said there are 200,000 Omicron infections per day now.
    200,000 Omicron infections a day = (per Javid) 1m Covid infections.

    Has the engine just cut out on the doodlebug and we're waiting for impact.
    Yes it's complete nonsense but go onto the Sky News website and that is still what they are saying. https://news.sky.com/

    Which is why I queried it on here as soon as I saw it. Unfortunately Francis seems to think it was me making the statement in the House of Commons.
  • pigeonpigeon Posts: 4,839

    Heathener said:

    Chris said:

    Heathener said:

    Its 200k new covid cases per day, of which 20% are omicron. As modelled by the UK HSA.

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/health/covid-uk-cases-omicron-latest-today-b1975243.html

    Well that's not how Sky are reporting it:

    https://news.sky.com/

    p.s. thanks
    You see the mistake you made their is turning on sky news....i did this morning and nearly broke it wirh Kay Burley spouting antivaxxers nonsense.
    You need to think!

    200,000 Omicron infections a day would put it far in excess of the number of Delta infections, not at 20%.
    That isnt what is becoming said. Its 200k (all covid) infections.
    That is NOT what Sky News are reporting.

    As I said, they are reporting that he said there are 200,000 Omicron infections per day now.
    Well that is nonsense. Think about it logically. That would mean a million new cases a day now. That juat isn't possible.

    Its basically case numbers x3-4....which is what today 60k, times be 3, thats basically your 200k.
    I assume that it was a slip of the tongue, and he meant that the boffins are estimating a total of 200,000 Covid infections per day. All the cases confirmed by test, plus substantial numbers where tests aren't taken or reported, including a great many asymptomatic ones.
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 5,747
    jonny83 said:

    Stumbled on this interesting read from Sept 2020 on why South Africa was experiencing lower death rates compared to countries in Europe back then during that early wave. Even mentions them seeing 'milder illness' and looks at factors why this might be the case:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-53998374

    That’s an odd article given how bad SA’s excess deaths have been
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,912
    edited December 2021
    GIN1138 said:

    Gosh, SKS is a wind bag isn't he lol!

    If Starmer wins the next election within a year Boris will do a Trump and say 'miss me yet', as Trump now does after his loss last year to Biden
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,989
    edited December 2021
    Heathener said:

    Heathener said:

    Chris said:

    Heathener said:

    Its 200k new covid cases per day, of which 20% are omicron. As modelled by the UK HSA.

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/health/covid-uk-cases-omicron-latest-today-b1975243.html

    Well that's not how Sky are reporting it:

    https://news.sky.com/

    p.s. thanks
    You see the mistake you made their is turning on sky news....i did this morning and nearly broke it wirh Kay Burley spouting antivaxxers nonsense.
    You need to think!

    200,000 Omicron infections a day would put it far in excess of the number of Delta infections, not at 20%.
    That isnt what is becoming said. Its 200k (all covid) infections.
    That is NOT what Sky News are reporting.

    As I said, they are reporting that he said there are 200,000 Omicron infections per day now.
    Well that is nonsense. Think about it logically. That would mean a million new cases a day now. That juat isn't possible.

    Would you please STOP f-ing making this about me?!!!!!!!!!!

    I am reporting what Sky News are saying Javid said. I'm not the Health Secretary, sadly.
    I wasn't having a go at you.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,908
    GIN1138 said:

    Gosh, SKS is a wind bag isn't he lol!

    Fortunately not looking like a crook is more than enough
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,957

    Polruan said:



    Boosters per capita

    UK 32.53%
    France 18.04%

    That doesn't look squandered to me.

    Do you think France will finish theirs this month? Do you think France are going to catch up with us any time soon?

    We squandered the advantage in that we should have been doing that kind of rate for the last month at least. If we had done so, and in particular if we'd lowered the interval to 5 or less months as I and many others suggested, we'd be in a far better position now - and that was obvious even without Omicron.
    But to be fair we are going to ay a price for the surge. Our surgery today has announced it is cancelling all but urgent appointments for the foreseeable future so that it can concentrate on boosters. Chances are people will die as a result of this or at least have serious, life threatening conditions delayed in being identified. To say that we should have done this sooner when even now it is not obvious that this is a life threatening strain is simply wrong.
    No, it's exactly the other way round. If we'd done it in a planned way, starting before the winter which is always worse for the NHS, making full use of pharmacies, and taking full advantage of the opportunity of doing boosters at the same time as boosters, we wouldn't be having to do things in a panic now, with the negative consequences which you highlight.
    It was being done in a planned way, it was already available to 30-somethings.
    Err, yes. A badly planned way.
    How was it badly planned? The vulnerable were already done. No other comparable nation even comes close. All despite the JCVIs prevarication.

    You're being petulant.
    Couple of examples - hope they're petulant enough:

    - Despite the JVCI taking a contrarian view against international best practice causing months of delay to the decision to vaccinate 12-15 year-olds, the rollout still wasn't ready to go when finally approved, meaning that only a minority had been vaccinated by October half-term. I'm not sure that "no other comparable" nation has done this as badly, but a lot have done it better. And there's still no plan for the second vaccination in the course for this group, or for vaccination certification for them. Large numbers of infections during the past term could have been reduced, which would have helped to control case numbers in the wider community as well as protecting teenagers from the medical risks of covid and from missing out on education. As the parent of a teenager, this doesn't feel like great planning.

    - From Johnson's last "I need to move the news agenda on" announcement of expanding the availability of boosters to actual implementation was around three weeks even to amend booking criteria to take account of reducing the intra-dose time from 6 months to 5 months then to 3 months. During this period the vaccination booking website said essentially "plans to do the stuff the PM announced are coming soon, check back later". Announcing something which there seems to be no plan to implement and then scrambling to do it doesn't feel like great planning.
    On the first point prevarication over the young lies squarely with the JCVI.
    Did someone elect the JCVI to government. It's the govt's responsibility. They can do what they want. They are advised by scientists and the JCVI but they make the decisions.

    Unless you are saying they are pathetic indecisive idiots.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,957
    Heathener said:

    TOPPING said:

    Heathener said:

    Chris said:

    Heathener said:

    Its 200k new covid cases per day, of which 20% are omicron. As modelled by the UK HSA.

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/health/covid-uk-cases-omicron-latest-today-b1975243.html

    Well that's not how Sky are reporting it:

    https://news.sky.com/

    p.s. thanks
    You see the mistake you made their is turning on sky news....i did this morning and nearly broke it wirh Kay Burley spouting antivaxxers nonsense.
    You need to think!

    200,000 Omicron infections a day would put it far in excess of the number of Delta infections, not at 20%.
    That isnt what is becoming said. Its 200k (all covid) infections.
    That is NOT what Sky News are reporting.

    As I said, they are reporting that he said there are 200,000 Omicron infections per day now.
    200,000 Omicron infections a day = (per Javid) 1m Covid infections.

    Has the engine just cut out on the doodlebug and we're waiting for impact.
    Yes it's complete nonsense but go onto the Sky News website and that is still what they are saying. https://news.sky.com/

    Which is why I queried it on here as soon as I saw it. Unfortunately Francis seems to think it was me making the statement in the House of Commons.
    Francis needs to think!
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,134
    Heathener said:

    In the right circumstances dull people can make ideal PM's. We're just used to very charismatic types these days and it may be that the times have changed so much that we can't cope without a song and dance man tripping the light fantastic.

    Frothy PM's of my lifetime: Tony Blair, Boris Johnson

    Serious and dull PM's of my lifetime: Jim Callaghan, John Major, Gordon Brown, Theresa May, Harold Wilson (to an extent), Margaret Thatcher, Ted Heath

    Nowhere to place: David Cameron. Frothy on substance, serious in style. Quite the combo!

    Our politics has become rather degraded - as have we - if the necessary attributes for being PM are now the same as for winning Celebrity Big Brother.
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 7,084
    HYUFD said:

    Heathener said:

    In the right circumstances dull people can make ideal PM's. We're just used to very charismatic types these days and it may be that the times have changed so much that we can't cope without a song and dance man tripping the light fantastic.

    Frothy PM's of my lifetime: Tony Blair, Boris Johnson

    Serious and dull PM's of my lifetime: Jim Callaghan, John Major, Gordon Brown, Theresa May, Harold Wilson (to an extent), Margaret Thatcher, Ted Heath

    Nowhere to place: David Cameron. Frothy on substance, serious in style. Quite the combo!

    Thatcher was charismatic, she was certainly not dull.
    Possibly and I know what you mean but she famously had no sense of humour. She wasn't frothy or light-hearted by any stretch. A very serious person.

    Perhaps she should be put in a category all of her own. You probably know that I rate her the greatest PM of my lifetime, even though I profoundly disagree with much of what she stood for.
  • Heathener said:

    TOPPING said:

    Heathener said:

    Chris said:

    Heathener said:

    Its 200k new covid cases per day, of which 20% are omicron. As modelled by the UK HSA.

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/health/covid-uk-cases-omicron-latest-today-b1975243.html

    Well that's not how Sky are reporting it:

    https://news.sky.com/

    p.s. thanks
    You see the mistake you made their is turning on sky news....i did this morning and nearly broke it wirh Kay Burley spouting antivaxxers nonsense.
    You need to think!

    200,000 Omicron infections a day would put it far in excess of the number of Delta infections, not at 20%.
    That isnt what is becoming said. Its 200k (all covid) infections.
    That is NOT what Sky News are reporting.

    As I said, they are reporting that he said there are 200,000 Omicron infections per day now.
    200,000 Omicron infections a day = (per Javid) 1m Covid infections.

    Has the engine just cut out on the doodlebug and we're waiting for impact.
    Yes it's complete nonsense but go onto the Sky News website and that is still what they are saying. https://news.sky.com/

    Which is why I queried it on here as soon as I saw it. Unfortunately Francis seems to think it was me making the statement in the House of Commons.
    Again, i didn't think you said.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 13,494
    MrEd said:

    IanB2 said:

    Scott_xP said:
    I do not think it is in hands anymore
    I suspect it is, unfortunately.

    Attention is going to turn now to Omicron, Christmas, how Covid affects us in the New Year.

    If the UK avoids a January lockdown then the PM will deserve credit and will be given space by his MPs. If the UK goes into lockdown then that will burn bridges with even more MPs and I expect the letters will finally go in.
    When asked does he still have your support he will have 300 MPs saying yes. If there was a secret ballot confidence vote today he would lose it. It’s nothing to do with no rules were broken at the parties that didn’t exist destroying all trust in him - it’s to do with his stupid speech at conference. He’s got nothing to say anymore. He’s naked. No a single sausage of ideology to explain. The vote of no confidence is coming in January even without the defeat in North Shropshire.
    More specifically, the MPs always knew of his significant potential weaknesses - but perhaps hoped that he’d mature in the job rather more than he has done. But now these weaknesses are on show for everyone to see, on top of which the reason he was appointed - his election winning magic - is draining away.
    It’s gone Ian. Before they pulled the plug on Boris after his awful conference speech his own party already knew this.

    A challenge to anyone on here who thinks Boris can win the next general election, what is the basket of ideas currently driving his government building next election win that sit under the heading Borism?

    Last election platform was 1) end to Tory austerity 2) get Brexit done 3) keep Corbyn out.

    What wins the next election for him? Believing he will deliver Levelling Up?

    What is Borism?
    And what is Starmerism?

    Seriously. What would a Starmer Govt look like?

    RW Tory voters not only voted for Brexit but also because they were sick and tired of the Labour Party seeing them as a bunch of gammon racists with outmoded views, and whom they despised. Despite Starmer’s attempts, I don’t see any change in that view. The idea that Yvette Cooper handling immigration will soothe voter fears is a laugh.

    The Tories have a leadership issue. BJ may or may not get out of this (he knows his History - he will have plenty of historical examples of how to do a u-turn) but, if he doesn’t, the Tories get someone else and off they go.

    Labour have a fundamental strategic problem. That is far harder to solve.
    Calm down mate, think of your blood pressure 👍🏻

    Totally agree with you Socialism is a busted flush in 21st century. That’s why I’m a Lib Dem. 🙂

    But I do agree with all the Financial Times editorials, UK Capitalism needs a reset and we aren’t getting that from the current myopic Tories, are we?
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,874
    HYUFD said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Gosh, SKS is a wind bag isn't he lol!

    If Starmer wins the next election within a year Boris will do a Trump and say 'miss me yet', as Trump now does after his loss last year to Biden
    If he throws away an 80-seat majority at the next election, do you imagine the Conservative Party being inclined to give Boris Johnson another go in 2029?
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,989
    edited December 2021
    TOPPING said:

    Heathener said:

    TOPPING said:

    Heathener said:

    Chris said:

    Heathener said:

    Its 200k new covid cases per day, of which 20% are omicron. As modelled by the UK HSA.

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/health/covid-uk-cases-omicron-latest-today-b1975243.html

    Well that's not how Sky are reporting it:

    https://news.sky.com/

    p.s. thanks
    You see the mistake you made their is turning on sky news....i did this morning and nearly broke it wirh Kay Burley spouting antivaxxers nonsense.
    You need to think!

    200,000 Omicron infections a day would put it far in excess of the number of Delta infections, not at 20%.
    That isnt what is becoming said. Its 200k (all covid) infections.
    That is NOT what Sky News are reporting.

    As I said, they are reporting that he said there are 200,000 Omicron infections per day now.
    200,000 Omicron infections a day = (per Javid) 1m Covid infections.

    Has the engine just cut out on the doodlebug and we're waiting for impact.
    Yes it's complete nonsense but go onto the Sky News website and that is still what they are saying. https://news.sky.com/

    Which is why I queried it on here as soon as I saw it. Unfortunately Francis seems to think it was me making the statement in the House of Commons.
    Francis needs to think!
    FFS , no I didn't. I said the stat being reported is nonsense.

    It was Chris thay said "you need to think", not me.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,957

    TOPPING said:

    Heathener said:

    TOPPING said:

    Heathener said:

    Chris said:

    Heathener said:

    Its 200k new covid cases per day, of which 20% are omicron. As modelled by the UK HSA.

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/health/covid-uk-cases-omicron-latest-today-b1975243.html

    Well that's not how Sky are reporting it:

    https://news.sky.com/

    p.s. thanks
    You see the mistake you made their is turning on sky news....i did this morning and nearly broke it wirh Kay Burley spouting antivaxxers nonsense.
    You need to think!

    200,000 Omicron infections a day would put it far in excess of the number of Delta infections, not at 20%.
    That isnt what is becoming said. Its 200k (all covid) infections.
    That is NOT what Sky News are reporting.

    As I said, they are reporting that he said there are 200,000 Omicron infections per day now.
    200,000 Omicron infections a day = (per Javid) 1m Covid infections.

    Has the engine just cut out on the doodlebug and we're waiting for impact.
    Yes it's complete nonsense but go onto the Sky News website and that is still what they are saying. https://news.sky.com/

    Which is why I queried it on here as soon as I saw it. Unfortunately Francis seems to think it was me making the statement in the House of Commons.
    Francis needs to think!
    FFS , no I didn't. I said the stat being reported is nonsense.
    Francis you need to think!

    Oh yes indeedy.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,912
    stodge said:

    HYUFD said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Gosh, SKS is a wind bag isn't he lol!

    If Starmer wins the next election within a year Boris will do a Trump and say 'miss me yet', as Trump now does after his loss last year to Biden
    If he throws away an 80-seat majority at the next election, do you imagine the Conservative Party being inclined to give Boris Johnson another go in 2029?
    Trump now leads a number of polls v Biden for 2024.

    Churchill lost heavily in 1945 but came back to win another term as PM in 1951. Berlusconi lost and won again multiple times in Italy.

    It was of course Boris who won that 80 seat majority in the first place, stranger things have happened
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 5,747
    Heathener said:

    TOPPING said:

    Heathener said:

    Chris said:

    Heathener said:

    Its 200k new covid cases per day, of which 20% are omicron. As modelled by the UK HSA.

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/health/covid-uk-cases-omicron-latest-today-b1975243.html

    Well that's not how Sky are reporting it:

    https://news.sky.com/

    p.s. thanks
    You see the mistake you made their is turning on sky news....i did this morning and nearly broke it wirh Kay Burley spouting antivaxxers nonsense.
    You need to think!

    200,000 Omicron infections a day would put it far in excess of the number of Delta infections, not at 20%.
    That isnt what is becoming said. Its 200k (all covid) infections.
    That is NOT what Sky News are reporting.

    As I said, they are reporting that he said there are 200,000 Omicron infections per day now.
    200,000 Omicron infections a day = (per Javid) 1m Covid infections.

    Has the engine just cut out on the doodlebug and we're waiting for impact.
    Yes it's complete nonsense but go onto the Sky News website and that is still what they are saying. https://news.sky.com/

    Which is why I queried it on here as soon as I saw it. Unfortunately Francis seems to think it was me making the statement in the House of Commons.
    I know it’s risen fast in Saff from a similar base but our positivity rate is still only 5%.
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 7,084
    kinabalu said:

    Heathener said:

    In the right circumstances dull people can make ideal PM's. We're just used to very charismatic types these days and it may be that the times have changed so much that we can't cope without a song and dance man tripping the light fantastic.

    Frothy PM's of my lifetime: Tony Blair, Boris Johnson

    Serious and dull PM's of my lifetime: Jim Callaghan, John Major, Gordon Brown, Theresa May, Harold Wilson (to an extent), Margaret Thatcher, Ted Heath

    Nowhere to place: David Cameron. Frothy on substance, serious in style. Quite the combo!

    Our politics has become rather degraded - as have we - if the necessary attributes for being PM are now the same as for winning Celebrity Big Brother.
    Quite!

    I think that gets to what I was saying, only rather better in your case.
  • Good evening.

    I have been away from PB for a few days while packing.

    Are you going somewhere nice?

  • PolruanPolruan Posts: 2,083

    Polruan said:



    Boosters per capita

    UK 32.53%
    France 18.04%

    That doesn't look squandered to me.

    Do you think France will finish theirs this month? Do you think France are going to catch up with us any time soon?

    We squandered the advantage in that we should have been doing that kind of rate for the last month at least. If we had done so, and in particular if we'd lowered the interval to 5 or less months as I and many others suggested, we'd be in a far better position now - and that was obvious even without Omicron.
    But to be fair we are going to ay a price for the surge. Our surgery today has announced it is cancelling all but urgent appointments for the foreseeable future so that it can concentrate on boosters. Chances are people will die as a result of this or at least have serious, life threatening conditions delayed in being identified. To say that we should have done this sooner when even now it is not obvious that this is a life threatening strain is simply wrong.
    No, it's exactly the other way round. If we'd done it in a planned way, starting before the winter which is always worse for the NHS, making full use of pharmacies, and taking full advantage of the opportunity of doing boosters at the same time as boosters, we wouldn't be having to do things in a panic now, with the negative consequences which you highlight.
    It was being done in a planned way, it was already available to 30-somethings.
    Err, yes. A badly planned way.
    How was it badly planned? The vulnerable were already done. No other comparable nation even comes close. All despite the JCVIs prevarication.

    You're being petulant.
    Couple of examples - hope they're petulant enough:

    - Despite the JVCI taking a contrarian view against international best practice causing months of delay to the decision to vaccinate 12-15 year-olds, the rollout still wasn't ready to go when finally approved, meaning that only a minority had been vaccinated by October half-term. I'm not sure that "no other comparable" nation has done this as badly, but a lot have done it better. And there's still no plan for the second vaccination in the course for this group, or for vaccination certification for them. Large numbers of infections during the past term could have been reduced, which would have helped to control case numbers in the wider community as well as protecting teenagers from the medical risks of covid and from missing out on education. As the parent of a teenager, this doesn't feel like great planning.

    - From Johnson's last "I need to move the news agenda on" announcement of expanding the availability of boosters to actual implementation was around three weeks even to amend booking criteria to take account of reducing the intra-dose time from 6 months to 5 months then to 3 months. During this period the vaccination booking website said essentially "plans to do the stuff the PM announced are coming soon, check back later". Announcing something which there seems to be no plan to implement and then scrambling to do it doesn't feel like great planning.
    On the first point prevarication over the young lies squarely with the JCVI.

    On the second you're being entirely unreasonable. The boosters were expanded but they explicitly said they would stick with the priority regimen. So yes as a thirty nine year old my eligibility was only accepted on the weekend but that wasn't because they had no plan to implement ... It is because they quite rightly stuck with the plan of jabbing those who were older and vulnerable first.

    It makes no sense to be vaccinating not vulnerable 39 year olds before all 49 or 59 year olds have been done first. That's sticking with the plan and if you look at the by age breakdown chart @CarlottaVance shared earlier it's worked.

    Not only has the UK done double the booster jabs that any other comparable nation, but they've gone to the right people.
    I deliberately didn't blame the government for the JCVI's prevarication (though I think they could have done more to address that). My point was that event with the delay the programme wasn't ready to go - less justifiable than it would have been if the approval had come quickly.

    On the second, I'm not questioning the priority. As a 40-something 5 months past my 2nd dose, the implication of the last round of booster announcements was that I was eligible for a booster immediately (I can't remember the exact phrasing, but it was clear enough that I was checking for changes in the booking policy daily). A change to the plan was announced and it took several weeks to implement it. I'm sure you're right about your treatment as a 39 year old, but to pick your phrase I counted as "old and vulnerable" but couldn't get a booster for a few weeks in line with announced policy.

    In case this sounds a bit grumpy, I also caught covid while waiting for that booster and haven't really had a great week as a result.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298
    edited December 2021
    I have some well-connected and prestigious friends who had lunch with Keir recently.

    They left impressed by his tenacity on the internal clean-up job after Corbyn’s disastrous tenure (apparently something of personal mission given Keir’s family circumstances), but not at all convinced he has yet figured out a vision, let alone one he can sell to middle Britain.

    Oh, and apparently Keir and Sir Ed are in regular contact. The tacit alliance is live and kicking.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,989
    edited December 2021
    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    Heathener said:

    TOPPING said:

    Heathener said:

    Chris said:

    Heathener said:

    Its 200k new covid cases per day, of which 20% are omicron. As modelled by the UK HSA.

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/health/covid-uk-cases-omicron-latest-today-b1975243.html

    Well that's not how Sky are reporting it:

    https://news.sky.com/

    p.s. thanks
    You see the mistake you made their is turning on sky news....i did this morning and nearly broke it wirh Kay Burley spouting antivaxxers nonsense.
    You need to think!

    200,000 Omicron infections a day would put it far in excess of the number of Delta infections, not at 20%.
    That isnt what is becoming said. Its 200k (all covid) infections.
    That is NOT what Sky News are reporting.

    As I said, they are reporting that he said there are 200,000 Omicron infections per day now.
    200,000 Omicron infections a day = (per Javid) 1m Covid infections.

    Has the engine just cut out on the doodlebug and we're waiting for impact.
    Yes it's complete nonsense but go onto the Sky News website and that is still what they are saying. https://news.sky.com/

    Which is why I queried it on here as soon as I saw it. Unfortunately Francis seems to think it was me making the statement in the House of Commons.
    Francis needs to think!
    FFS , no I didn't. I said the stat being reported is nonsense.
    Francis you need to think!

    Oh yes indeedy.
    Can we just get this fucking clear, I did not say anything about another poster. i said the stat as being reported can't be true that is all and it looks like Javid wasn't 100% crystal clear in his statement to the house and the media haven't thought about what 200k and 20% would refer to.

    There is absolutely no way there are 200k new omicron infections per day when they make up 20% of total cases....not when official stats are 50-60k cases and 1500.omicron. that would mean 1 million total covid cases, which is obviously bollocks.

    Its estimated 200k new (all variant) cases per day, of which 20% are omicron, based off an iffy model.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,355

    IanB2 said:

    Scott_xP said:
    I do not think it is in hands anymore
    I suspect it is, unfortunately.

    Attention is going to turn now to Omicron, Christmas, how Covid affects us in the New Year.

    If the UK avoids a January lockdown then the PM will deserve credit and will be given space by his MPs. If the UK goes into lockdown then that will burn bridges with even more MPs and I expect the letters will finally go in.
    When asked does he still have your support he will have 300 MPs saying yes. If there was a secret ballot confidence vote today he would lose it. It’s nothing to do with no rules were broken at the parties that didn’t exist destroying all trust in him - it’s to do with his stupid speech at conference. He’s got nothing to say anymore. He’s naked. No a single sausage of ideology to explain. The vote of no confidence is coming in January even without the defeat in North Shropshire.
    More specifically, the MPs always knew of his significant potential weaknesses - but perhaps hoped that he’d mature in the job rather more than he has done. But now these weaknesses are on show for everyone to see, on top of which the reason he was appointed - his election winning magic - is draining away.
    It’s gone Ian. Before they pulled the plug on Boris after his awful conference speech his own party already knew this.

    A challenge to anyone on here who thinks Boris can win the next general election, what is the basket of ideas currently driving his government, building next election win, that sit under the heading Borism?

    Last election platform was 1) end to Tory austerity 2) get Brexit done 3) keep Corbyn out.

    What wins the next election for him? Believing he will deliver Levelling Up?

    What is Borism?
    The pitch could be three things.
    1. Keep Brexit Safe (from the Remainer-in-Chief, Sir Keir Starmer)
    2. Keep Taxes Low (after the pre-election income tax)
    3. Keep Levelling Up (look at the money your Tory MP - and Rishi - spent on your town)
  • HYUFD said:

    Taz said:

    Starmer would be better off staying off camera and letting bojo fuck up. He’s dull and dreary. Like a wet weekend in Wigan.

    Well if he becomes PM you will have to get used to it.
    Have you gone LAB? 👍
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,957

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    Heathener said:

    TOPPING said:

    Heathener said:

    Chris said:

    Heathener said:

    Its 200k new covid cases per day, of which 20% are omicron. As modelled by the UK HSA.

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/health/covid-uk-cases-omicron-latest-today-b1975243.html

    Well that's not how Sky are reporting it:

    https://news.sky.com/

    p.s. thanks
    You see the mistake you made their is turning on sky news....i did this morning and nearly broke it wirh Kay Burley spouting antivaxxers nonsense.
    You need to think!

    200,000 Omicron infections a day would put it far in excess of the number of Delta infections, not at 20%.
    That isnt what is becoming said. Its 200k (all covid) infections.
    That is NOT what Sky News are reporting.

    As I said, they are reporting that he said there are 200,000 Omicron infections per day now.
    200,000 Omicron infections a day = (per Javid) 1m Covid infections.

    Has the engine just cut out on the doodlebug and we're waiting for impact.
    Yes it's complete nonsense but go onto the Sky News website and that is still what they are saying. https://news.sky.com/

    Which is why I queried it on here as soon as I saw it. Unfortunately Francis seems to think it was me making the statement in the House of Commons.
    Francis needs to think!
    FFS , no I didn't. I said the stat being reported is nonsense.
    Francis you need to think!

    Oh yes indeedy.
    Can we just get this fucking clear, I did not say anything about another poster. i said the stat as being reported can't be true that is all and it looks like Javid wasn't 100% crystal clear in his statement to the house and the media haven't thought about what 200k and 20% would refer to.
    Are you saying you don't need to think?
This discussion has been closed.