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North Shropshire: Betting with a clean slate – politicalbetting.com

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  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,175
    edited December 2021
    As long as COVID is a live issue, Boris Johnson is safe. That’s now the dividing line in politics and I don’t think the pro-restrictions wing of the party would risk having Steve Baker as PM.
  • I think one of the most effective things we could do is to make train tickets to from Scotland to England cheaper than flying

    Where there is direct competition the fares are cheap. Split at Edinburgh as LNER happy to sell empty seats cheap on trains in transit
  • Stocky said:

    Leon said:

    Stocky said:

    Leon said:

    Stocky said:

    Leon said:

    I made this comment last night at about 11pm



    “I reckon its time to play PB PLAGUE PREDICTIONS BINGO

    The world is teetering on the abyss. This could all blow over in a week and we go back to worrying about Boris's bald patch OR human civilisation will be snuffed out like a candle at Christingle, probably around Christingle

    In that light, what do we predict? I'll go first


    Lockdown: YES

    Lockdown when: introduced incrementally, but fast. Plan C from about mid December, Plan Z (a harsh lockdown) from around Jan 1

    Lockdown how long: not long. It won't do much. 3-4 weeks

    UK hospitalisations between now and end March 2022: 310,000

    UK deaths in the same period: 49,000”


    Interestingly it turns out I am bang in the middle of expert predictions:


    “In the most optimistic scenario, which assumes Omicron has low immune escape and booster jabs are highly effective, the model projects between 1 December and 31 April:
    20.9 million infections
    175,000 hospital admissions
    24,700 deaths

    In the most pessimistic scenario, which assumes Omicron has high immune escape and booster jabs are less effective, the model projects between 1 December and 31 April:
    34.2 million infections
    492,000 hospital admissions
    74,900 deaths”

    Sometimes I scare MYSELF

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-59621029

    "UK hospitalisations between now and end March 2022: 310,000"

    What does that mean? I presume you mean the total of UK daily new hospitalisations due to Covid? If so that's 310,000/15 weeks = 20,666 per week on average. (About 800 currently)
    Eh? It’s around 800 a DAY at the moment

    https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details/healthcare
    Apologies - yes sorry 5600 pw - I realised this. But my point is - that 5600 will average st 20,666 from now to the end of the first quarter is massive in itself but would necessitate a MUCH larger figure somewhere in that quarter to bring up the mean to 20,666.
    Total covid admissions so far. 600,000. I’m predicting omicron will add roughly 50% to that over the winter

    If I say so myself, I’m still impressed by my amateur epidemiology.

    This morning the best scientific brains in the country - virologists to mathematicians - came up with their predictions of deaths by omicron


    Best case: 24,700

    Worst case: 74,900


    Last night, hours before, at about 11pm after two gins and several wines, I predicted

    My case: 49,100

    Absolute bullseye. Smack bang in the middle. Quite frankly the government could save squillions by sacking all their modellers and hiring me to do it once a week after dinner for about an hour. They could pay me in Tikves Barovo
    Ok, I can see why you are panicking.

    I hope and think you are way off.
    Well, if @Leon counts as panicking then so are all the bloody modellers who have come up yet again with scary numbers and graphs.

    Maybe third or is it fourth time they will get lucky and get the right numbers.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,148
    edited December 2021
    FF43 said:

    FF43 said:

    Farooq said:

    So on a scale of 1 to totally fucked, where sits the PM today?

    8. He's drinking in the last chance saloon and a crowd of voters from North Salop are waiting outside to have a word.
    The noisier ones want to run him out of town, but there are quieter ones who might just step in to save him.
    The problem with Brexit is, and has been since 2016, is that no-one has done the damage limitation on it. At some point people will have to face up to it and accept the UK will be cutting deals with a largely indifferent European Union with very little influence over the outcomes. We're not at the point yet.
    Was interesting to see the Daily Express put the boot in over trading performance. Brexit has taken the global issues of the last 18 months and made them significantly worse for us. And thats before the hellfest starts on 1st January. Despite us imposing the restrictions and red tape we demanded so much later than envisaged, we still do not remotely have the capacity to cope with the BA/HMRC workload that is about to smash us over the head.
    Thing is, damage limitation requires the UK to make concessions and publicly commit to them. Passively not doing things isn't going to work.

    An example. The US apparently won't drop steel tariffs until the UK comes to agreement with the EU over the Northern Ireland Protocol. Quietly dropping the idea of using A16 won't be enough to get the US tariffs removed. The UK will need to make some kind of commitment to not using it by agreeing something else, which happens to be same as the Irish and EU demands.

    The US tariffs aren't simply an embarrassment, in that the EU gets something the UK doesn't. UK steel firms are now at a competitive disadvantage because they have tariffs and the competition doesn't.

    So the Brexiteer government must decide if it prioritises the hypothetical possibility of calling Article 16 over the future of an important industry in Red Wall seats. This can't be fudged.

    On another topic it looks like the UK and Jersey will reissue the demanded French fishing licences, as predicted.

    There's no point discussing whether this is good or bad. I guess for different reasons both Remainers and Leavers think it's bad, which is why there's been no market for damage limitation up to now. It's simply how things are going to be from now on. But I can see people reacting badly.
    I don't see any of those being that way.

    Article 16 is an article in the Treaty designed to be used in appropriate circumstances. The issue with Sleepy Joe is what constitutes a sustainable and peace-preserving arrangement. It is quite possible that Biden is talking out of his Rs, and his demands (if he has made them) undermine stability - he appears to be following a Simon Coveney lead. A16 has been built up into an existential earthquake, which is a huge exaggeration of what it is.

    On Fishing some will be granted, but not all. UK Gov position will be that those granted have been where suitable evidence has been provided. Macron has been demanding 100% and indulging himself in Putin panto, and he will have to back down.

    Biden has also guaranteed that the countervailing UK on USA tariffs are continued, since the steel ones were the other half of a tariff-tariff pair introduced by the USA and the EU.

    I see that this morning we have a trilateral agreement on total allowable catches between UK/EU/Norway for next year.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,070
    kinabalu said:

    Stocky said:

    kinabalu said:

    Stocky said:

    kinabalu said:

    Stocky said:

    kinabalu said:

    valleyboy said:

    Stocky said:

    Stocky said:

    Stocky said:

    Scott_xP said:

    “I’d strongly urge the government to drop the vote on vaccine passports.”

    Conservative MP, Tobias Ellwood says the government needs to “repair” trust with the British people, if they are going to bring in new COVID guidance.


    Get #COVID19 updates: https://trib.al/oqKZkSu https://twitter.com/SkyNews/status/1469636560987594761/video/1

    Hunting the unvaxxed is the new national sport - hasn't Ellwood heard?
    Ridiculous comment. No one's 'hunting' them - just preventing their stupidity impacting the sensible. A bit like the smoking regs.
    Well, I exaggerate for comic effect.

    There is no doubt that this group are being relegated to second-class citizens. Vax Passports will be popular despite vaccination always being set-up as a personal choice. An example of the tyranny of the majority if you like. It is disingenuous because our route out of this - vaccine discovery - was never predicated on everyone agreeing to take the vaccine (which was never going to happen and we knew it).

    I think someone deciding not to get vaccinated is making a big mistake and will try to persuade them otherwise by looking at all evidence and the pros and cons. But I truly dislike current mass sentiment over this issue, it's a nasty atmosphere.
    Apols for my over-reaction - took you too seriously.

    I'd be interested to know if/where you think my smoking analogy falls down?
    I think it's a pretty good analogy. I disagree that smoking should be banned wholesale but agree that it is acceptable that smoking shouldn't be allowed in a pub for example and, instead, an outside area can accommodate them.

    But if I'm totally honest with you I was opposed to the smoking ban in the first place. Just as when I was young I was opposed to mandatory seat belts. I've come on-board on both these issues given time, though I still don't think that the odd fag in a pub or trip to the shops unbelted should be policed draconianly.
    I am regularly grateful that it is.

    I gave up going to pubs in the 90s because I got fed up of coming home with my clothes, hair, and skin stinking, never mind the (probably low but not zero) passive-smoking risks.
    As I matured(sic) I hated smoking in pubs to the extent I rarely went in one. I was eternally grateful when the smoking ban came in. My wife and I are now very regular pub meal goers.
    Cannot understand how anyone(and I am an ex smoker) can enjoy someone puffing away next to them.
    I'd support a total legal ban on cigarettes. It's the only way to get me off the things and I bet that applies to many other addicts.
    I assume then you are against legalisation of cannabis?
    No, that's fine. All I do is Marlboro Golds.
    So you are for a ban on cigarettes but think that cannabis should be legal?
    Well I'd vote for a ban on cigs through sheer personal interest. But on the principle, I do think the case for smoking being illegal is far stronger than for soft drugs or alcohol. Smoking has absolutely zero benefit or utility to anybody. It's 100% downside. On every level it's a bad thing. There are no redeeming factors. The one and only reason for it being legal is that it's legal now. If it were invented tomorrow it wouldn't have a chance of being allowed.
    Zero utility? You don't think people enjoy smoking?
    I know they don't. It's quelling nicotine withdrawal pangs, hitting the clock on the next lot building up until they must be quelled again. The 'pleasure' is simply relief at the temporary removal of the twitchy anxious gnawing sensation the addiction itself creates. Smokers are rats on a wheel. Ruining their health, stinking up the place, throwing their money away. Many try to convince themselves otherwise for self-esteem purposes. But it's bollocks.
    Took me several tries to finally succeed in quitting (from up to two packs a day).
    Very glad I did.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,663

    Disappointing...

    409,760 booster vaccinations in Flag of United Kingdom exc Wales yesterday (372,557 the previous Friday)

    Flag of England 362,502
    Flag of Scotland 36,014
    NI 11,244

    https://twitter.com/HugoGye/status/1469675418055843842?s=20

    HMG have been living off a stale "world-beating vaccine success" narrative for far too long imo.
  • StockyStocky Posts: 10,213
    edited December 2021
    Andy_JS said:

    Stocky said:

    Scott_xP said:

    “I’d strongly urge the government to drop the vote on vaccine passports.”

    Conservative MP, Tobias Ellwood says the government needs to “repair” trust with the British people, if they are going to bring in new COVID guidance.


    Get #COVID19 updates: https://trib.al/oqKZkSu https://twitter.com/SkyNews/status/1469636560987594761/video/1

    Hunting the unvaxxed is the new national sport - hasn't Ellwood heard?
    Ridiculous comment. No one's 'hunting' them - just preventing their stupidity impacting the sensible. A bit like the smoking regs.
    My virulent anti-vaxxer friend is now on day 9 in ICU. He seems to be getting better, so will no doubt convince himself that it was better than getting jabbed.

    He and his wife were also rabidly anti-Trump. How they square the circle of being in the same camp as the Republican nutters is beyond me.

    Rather than smoking regs, more like those who used to drink and drive. You stood a real chance of being wiped out by some selfish arse who genuinely thought they drove just as well pissed as sober. Thankfully, Darwinism has pretty much seen off the remaining stump of those idiots. As it will Covid. Just don't expect a functioning NHS until it has.
    I don't understand how anyone can be anti-vaccinations. Mindboggling.
    Most aren't anti-vaccinations as such. There are a few who see them as not natural and we should live as nature intended (the hippy libertarian types) but they are a minority. The objections are coming from a few strands. Some think they are too risky, rushed, and haven't been tested for long enough, some tend towards the madcap conspiracy theories. But also the main objection I think comes from a deep distrust and loathing of state coercion. Then of course you have religious objectors.

    I am concerned that the nudge policy to maximise vaccination rates has veered off into a much more vigorous heckling and I think this is counter-productive. They will dig their heels in now out of stubbornness. If they think they are being relegated to second-class citizens rather than being allowed to make their own decisions there will be trouble.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,991
    edited December 2021

    Stocky said:

    Leon said:

    Stocky said:

    Leon said:

    Stocky said:

    Leon said:

    I made this comment last night at about 11pm



    “I reckon its time to play PB PLAGUE PREDICTIONS BINGO

    The world is teetering on the abyss. This could all blow over in a week and we go back to worrying about Boris's bald patch OR human civilisation will be snuffed out like a candle at Christingle, probably around Christingle

    In that light, what do we predict? I'll go first


    Lockdown: YES

    Lockdown when: introduced incrementally, but fast. Plan C from about mid December, Plan Z (a harsh lockdown) from around Jan 1

    Lockdown how long: not long. It won't do much. 3-4 weeks

    UK hospitalisations between now and end March 2022: 310,000

    UK deaths in the same period: 49,000”


    Interestingly it turns out I am bang in the middle of expert predictions:


    “In the most optimistic scenario, which assumes Omicron has low immune escape and booster jabs are highly effective, the model projects between 1 December and 31 April:
    20.9 million infections
    175,000 hospital admissions
    24,700 deaths

    In the most pessimistic scenario, which assumes Omicron has high immune escape and booster jabs are less effective, the model projects between 1 December and 31 April:
    34.2 million infections
    492,000 hospital admissions
    74,900 deaths”

    Sometimes I scare MYSELF

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-59621029

    "UK hospitalisations between now and end March 2022: 310,000"

    What does that mean? I presume you mean the total of UK daily new hospitalisations due to Covid? If so that's 310,000/15 weeks = 20,666 per week on average. (About 800 currently)
    Eh? It’s around 800 a DAY at the moment

    https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details/healthcare
    Apologies - yes sorry 5600 pw - I realised this. But my point is - that 5600 will average st 20,666 from now to the end of the first quarter is massive in itself but would necessitate a MUCH larger figure somewhere in that quarter to bring up the mean to 20,666.
    Total covid admissions so far. 600,000. I’m predicting omicron will add roughly 50% to that over the winter

    If I say so myself, I’m still impressed by my amateur epidemiology.

    This morning the best scientific brains in the country - virologists to mathematicians - came up with their predictions of deaths by omicron


    Best case: 24,700

    Worst case: 74,900


    Last night, hours before, at about 11pm after two gins and several wines, I predicted

    My case: 49,100

    Absolute bullseye. Smack bang in the middle. Quite frankly the government could save squillions by sacking all their modellers and hiring me to do it once a week after dinner for about an hour. They could pay me in Tikves Barovo
    Ok, I can see why you are panicking.

    I hope and think you are way off.
    Well, if @Leon counts as panicking then so are all the bloody modellers who have come up yet again with scary numbers and graphs.

    Maybe third or is it fourth time they will get lucky and get the right numbers.
    There seems little evidence they are improving their models, they seem to come up with the same flawed shit every time, where as soon as you start looking you say hold on, such and such output is just impossible.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277
    kinabalu said:

    Stocky said:

    kinabalu said:

    Stocky said:

    kinabalu said:

    Stocky said:

    kinabalu said:

    valleyboy said:

    Stocky said:

    Stocky said:

    Stocky said:

    Scott_xP said:

    “I’d strongly urge the government to drop the vote on vaccine passports.”

    Conservative MP, Tobias Ellwood says the government needs to “repair” trust with the British people, if they are going to bring in new COVID guidance.


    Get #COVID19 updates: https://trib.al/oqKZkSu https://twitter.com/SkyNews/status/1469636560987594761/video/1

    Hunting the unvaxxed is the new national sport - hasn't Ellwood heard?
    Ridiculous comment. No one's 'hunting' them - just preventing their stupidity impacting the sensible. A bit like the smoking regs.
    Well, I exaggerate for comic effect.

    There is no doubt that this group are being relegated to second-class citizens. Vax Passports will be popular despite vaccination always being set-up as a personal choice. An example of the tyranny of the majority if you like. It is disingenuous because our route out of this - vaccine discovery - was never predicated on everyone agreeing to take the vaccine (which was never going to happen and we knew it).

    I think someone deciding not to get vaccinated is making a big mistake and will try to persuade them otherwise by looking at all evidence and the pros and cons. But I truly dislike current mass sentiment over this issue, it's a nasty atmosphere.
    Apols for my over-reaction - took you too seriously.

    I'd be interested to know if/where you think my smoking analogy falls down?
    I think it's a pretty good analogy. I disagree that smoking should be banned wholesale but agree that it is acceptable that smoking shouldn't be allowed in a pub for example and, instead, an outside area can accommodate them.

    But if I'm totally honest with you I was opposed to the smoking ban in the first place. Just as when I was young I was opposed to mandatory seat belts. I've come on-board on both these issues given time, though I still don't think that the odd fag in a pub or trip to the shops unbelted should be policed draconianly.
    I am regularly grateful that it is.

    I gave up going to pubs in the 90s because I got fed up of coming home with my clothes, hair, and skin stinking, never mind the (probably low but not zero) passive-smoking risks.
    As I matured(sic) I hated smoking in pubs to the extent I rarely went in one. I was eternally grateful when the smoking ban came in. My wife and I are now very regular pub meal goers.
    Cannot understand how anyone(and I am an ex smoker) can enjoy someone puffing away next to them.
    I'd support a total legal ban on cigarettes. It's the only way to get me off the things and I bet that applies to many other addicts.
    I assume then you are against legalisation of cannabis?
    No, that's fine. All I do is Marlboro Golds.
    So you are for a ban on cigarettes but think that cannabis should be legal?
    Well I'd vote for a ban on cigs through sheer personal interest. But on the principle, I do think the case for smoking being illegal is far stronger than for soft drugs or alcohol. Smoking has absolutely zero benefit or utility to anybody. It's 100% downside. On every level it's a bad thing. There are no redeeming factors. The one and only reason for it being legal is that it's legal now. If it were invented tomorrow it wouldn't have a chance of being allowed.
    Zero utility? You don't think people enjoy smoking?
    I know they don't. It's quelling nicotine withdrawal pangs, hitting the clock on the next lot building up until they must be quelled again. The 'pleasure' is simply relief at the temporary removal of the twitchy anxious gnawing sensation the addiction itself creates. Smokers are rats on a wheel. Ruining their health, stinking up the place, throwing their money away. Many try to convince themselves otherwise for self-esteem purposes. But it's bollocks.
    Nicotine is such a pathetic addiction. Smelly and dirty, and almost zero pleasure, apart from a tiny buzz early in the habit and then just the relief of the craving. Smokers are twats

    Heroin makes much more sense, in terms. Heroin brings an intense sensual and mental pleasure, the relief of all pain and anxieties, a true bliss which has been compared to a prolonged, refined orgasm. Of course the problem is the addiction which will put you on your back in a urinous stairwell within a decade, or in the grave, or in prison, unless you are lucky, but even at the end the pleasure of the hit is greater than that of a stupid fag
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,405
    Leon said:

    Stocky said:

    Leon said:

    Stocky said:

    Leon said:

    I made this comment last night at about 11pm



    “I reckon its time to play PB PLAGUE PREDICTIONS BINGO

    The world is teetering on the abyss. This could all blow over in a week and we go back to worrying about Boris's bald patch OR human civilisation will be snuffed out like a candle at Christingle, probably around Christingle

    In that light, what do we predict? I'll go first


    Lockdown: YES

    Lockdown when: introduced incrementally, but fast. Plan C from about mid December, Plan Z (a harsh lockdown) from around Jan 1

    Lockdown how long: not long. It won't do much. 3-4 weeks

    UK hospitalisations between now and end March 2022: 310,000

    UK deaths in the same period: 49,000”


    Interestingly it turns out I am bang in the middle of expert predictions:


    “In the most optimistic scenario, which assumes Omicron has low immune escape and booster jabs are highly effective, the model projects between 1 December and 31 April:
    20.9 million infections
    175,000 hospital admissions
    24,700 deaths

    In the most pessimistic scenario, which assumes Omicron has high immune escape and booster jabs are less effective, the model projects between 1 December and 31 April:
    34.2 million infections
    492,000 hospital admissions
    74,900 deaths”

    Sometimes I scare MYSELF

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-59621029

    "UK hospitalisations between now and end March 2022: 310,000"

    What does that mean? I presume you mean the total of UK daily new hospitalisations due to Covid? If so that's 310,000/15 weeks = 20,666 per week on average. (About 800 currently)
    Eh? It’s around 800 a DAY at the moment

    https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details/healthcare
    Apologies - yes sorry 5600 pw - I realised this. But my point is - that 5600 will average st 20,666 from now to the end of the first quarter is massive in itself but would necessitate a MUCH larger figure somewhere in that quarter to bring up the mean to 20,666.
    Total covid admissions so far. 600,000. I’m predicting omicron will add roughly 50% to that over the winter

    If I say so myself, I’m still impressed by my amateur epidemiology.

    This morning the best scientific brains in the country - virologists to mathematicians - came up with their predictions of deaths by omicron


    Best case: 24,700

    Worst case: 74,900


    Last night, hours before, at about 11pm after two gins and several wines, I predicted

    My case: 49,100

    Absolute bullseye. Smack bang in the middle. Quite frankly the government could save squillions by sacking all their modellers and hiring me to do it once a week after dinner for about an hour. They could pay me in Tikves Barovo
    None of which has actually happened yet...
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,991
    edited December 2021

    Disappointing...

    409,760 booster vaccinations in Flag of United Kingdom exc Wales yesterday (372,557 the previous Friday)

    Flag of England 362,502
    Flag of Scotland 36,014
    NI 11,244

    https://twitter.com/HugoGye/status/1469675418055843842?s=20

    HMG have been living off a stale "world-beating vaccine success" narrative for far too long imo.
    To be fair, the root cause of this problem is the JCVI. They told government, no boosters are a luxury, you only need to give them to a very select group of old people.

    JCVI and SAGE not meeting at all during August and SAGE only once during September is criminal. To only in October starting to talk about the need to model the winter ahead is just mad.

    It should have been school kids during summer holidays, boosters from September.

    But definitely since Zahawi went, the new vaccines minister is never seen nor appears to do anything.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,148

    Someone who understands F1 please help me. What's the significance of Verstappen having to start on softs?

    He is quicker in the early stages, but his tyres may go off quicker, and potentially he may need more changes of tyre.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277

    Leon said:

    Stocky said:

    Leon said:

    Stocky said:

    Leon said:

    I made this comment last night at about 11pm



    “I reckon its time to play PB PLAGUE PREDICTIONS BINGO

    The world is teetering on the abyss. This could all blow over in a week and we go back to worrying about Boris's bald patch OR human civilisation will be snuffed out like a candle at Christingle, probably around Christingle

    In that light, what do we predict? I'll go first


    Lockdown: YES

    Lockdown when: introduced incrementally, but fast. Plan C from about mid December, Plan Z (a harsh lockdown) from around Jan 1

    Lockdown how long: not long. It won't do much. 3-4 weeks

    UK hospitalisations between now and end March 2022: 310,000

    UK deaths in the same period: 49,000”


    Interestingly it turns out I am bang in the middle of expert predictions:


    “In the most optimistic scenario, which assumes Omicron has low immune escape and booster jabs are highly effective, the model projects between 1 December and 31 April:
    20.9 million infections
    175,000 hospital admissions
    24,700 deaths

    In the most pessimistic scenario, which assumes Omicron has high immune escape and booster jabs are less effective, the model projects between 1 December and 31 April:
    34.2 million infections
    492,000 hospital admissions
    74,900 deaths”

    Sometimes I scare MYSELF

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-59621029

    "UK hospitalisations between now and end March 2022: 310,000"

    What does that mean? I presume you mean the total of UK daily new hospitalisations due to Covid? If so that's 310,000/15 weeks = 20,666 per week on average. (About 800 currently)
    Eh? It’s around 800 a DAY at the moment

    https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details/healthcare
    Apologies - yes sorry 5600 pw - I realised this. But my point is - that 5600 will average st 20,666 from now to the end of the first quarter is massive in itself but would necessitate a MUCH larger figure somewhere in that quarter to bring up the mean to 20,666.
    Total covid admissions so far. 600,000. I’m predicting omicron will add roughly 50% to that over the winter

    If I say so myself, I’m still impressed by my amateur epidemiology.

    This morning the best scientific brains in the country - virologists to mathematicians - came up with their predictions of deaths by omicron


    Best case: 24,700

    Worst case: 74,900


    Last night, hours before, at about 11pm after two gins and several wines, I predicted

    My case: 49,100

    Absolute bullseye. Smack bang in the middle. Quite frankly the government could save squillions by sacking all their modellers and hiring me to do it once a week after dinner for about an hour. They could pay me in Tikves Barovo
    None of which has actually happened yet...
    You are kind of missing the point of "predictions", and also missing my point, on top. Impressive
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,424
    DavidL said:

    "It is understood that Sunak was not at the event and was not aware of it taking place at the time."
    I live in a detached house in its own grounds. When a celebration occurs next door I can hear it from 100 metres away. Didn't Sunak or Johnson ask for the noise to be turned down? Or is Carrie's wallpaper so sound insulation efficient they couldn't hear anything?
    As I understand it Sunak doesn't live in Downing Street. Boris on the other hand....he doesn't have a leg to stand on, as his diary says he was away during the day, but back in London the evening of the big piss up.
    Does the Chancellor stay in the flat when he has been on the lash at a works party ... I mean late working breakfast?
    AFIK Dishy Rishi doesn't drink.
    He does. Drinks the tears from the howls of anguish of Boris's team as he outmanoeuvres them again and again.
    Drinking alcohol is, I understand, discouraged among Hindu's. Although I've known Hindu's who did, although rarely to excess.
    Have you ever met any Indian cricket fans? Restraint is not the first word that comes to mind.
    Yes. Agree. Noisy with it, too.
    However I've also been to a couple of Hindu weddings which were 'dry'. Much to the discomfort of some of the British guests.
  • Leon said:

    Stocky said:

    Leon said:

    Stocky said:

    Leon said:

    I made this comment last night at about 11pm



    “I reckon its time to play PB PLAGUE PREDICTIONS BINGO

    The world is teetering on the abyss. This could all blow over in a week and we go back to worrying about Boris's bald patch OR human civilisation will be snuffed out like a candle at Christingle, probably around Christingle

    In that light, what do we predict? I'll go first


    Lockdown: YES

    Lockdown when: introduced incrementally, but fast. Plan C from about mid December, Plan Z (a harsh lockdown) from around Jan 1

    Lockdown how long: not long. It won't do much. 3-4 weeks

    UK hospitalisations between now and end March 2022: 310,000

    UK deaths in the same period: 49,000”


    Interestingly it turns out I am bang in the middle of expert predictions:


    “In the most optimistic scenario, which assumes Omicron has low immune escape and booster jabs are highly effective, the model projects between 1 December and 31 April:
    20.9 million infections
    175,000 hospital admissions
    24,700 deaths

    In the most pessimistic scenario, which assumes Omicron has high immune escape and booster jabs are less effective, the model projects between 1 December and 31 April:
    34.2 million infections
    492,000 hospital admissions
    74,900 deaths”

    Sometimes I scare MYSELF

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-59621029

    "UK hospitalisations between now and end March 2022: 310,000"

    What does that mean? I presume you mean the total of UK daily new hospitalisations due to Covid? If so that's 310,000/15 weeks = 20,666 per week on average. (About 800 currently)
    Eh? It’s around 800 a DAY at the moment

    https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details/healthcare
    Apologies - yes sorry 5600 pw - I realised this. But my point is - that 5600 will average st 20,666 from now to the end of the first quarter is massive in itself but would necessitate a MUCH larger figure somewhere in that quarter to bring up the mean to 20,666.
    Total covid admissions so far. 600,000. I’m predicting omicron will add roughly 50% to that over the winter

    If I say so myself, I’m still impressed by my amateur epidemiology.

    This morning the best scientific brains in the country - virologists to mathematicians - came up with their predictions of deaths by omicron


    Best case: 24,700

    Worst case: 74,900


    Last night, hours before, at about 11pm after two gins and several wines, I predicted

    My case: 49,100

    Absolute bullseye. Smack bang in the middle. Quite frankly the government could save squillions by sacking all their modellers and hiring me to do it once a week after dinner for about an hour. They could pay me in Tikves Barovo
    None of which has actually happened yet...
    Well, the two gins and several large glasses of wine almost certainly did happen.
  • HYUFD said:

    algarkirk said:

    Scott_xP said:

    How Boris became the Tories’ new political contagion | Evening Standard https://www.standard.co.uk/insider/how-boris-johnson-became-tories-new-political-contagion-b971162.html

    Which is why Hunt is in with a shout, as one of the tiny number of possible PMs who is not mad, and unassociated with this government.

    Hunt net favourable -25%, Sunak net favourable +3%.

    If Boris goes Sunak remains the only viable alternative who has a net positive rating still, at least with Yougov
    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/explore/public_figure/Jeremy_Hunt
    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/explore/public_figure/Rishi_Sunak
    And hopefully the Tories will be aware of my £20 bet at 250/1 on Sunak being the next PM
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,829
    edited December 2021
    dixiedean said:

    Omicron news from Your Man on the Spot.

    Just got the Test and Trace phone call. They are clearly worried.
    Have been told to isolate for 10 days from peak symptoms, not first, as the official guidelines state.
    They were far more bothered about timings, symptoms and about the date and type of vaccine I'd had than contacts.
    He sounded concerned that I had tested negative from first sore throat (Saturday) through to peak (Tuesday), only positive LFT on Wednesday.
    This was similar for the folk I very strongly suspect I caught it from. They were both also largely recovered and 4 and 6 days in by the time they recorded a positive test. Implying that the LFT may not function well for this variant.
    A 4 or 6 or maybe more day window between symptoms and a positive isn't great. Neither for controlling the spread, nor for the economy if everyone with a cold is now a suspected case.
    Have received an immediate follow up saying I am suspected omicron. Which fits with the facts, as I was, if anything, more careful in the week leading up to my booster than before. Really didn't engage in any risky close contact. It was sitting a couple of metres apart chatting for half an hour. In a group of half a dozen rather than exclusively with the infected. And we were side by side, not facing.
    Not great really.

    Dixiedean. Your man on the infected spot.

    Poor you. Inside or outside? (the original event).
  • Mr. Pointer, I saw Mr. Mortimer post yesterday, I think.

    On F1: typically, Abu Dhabi has been tricky for passing but they have rejigged it to try and make overtaking easier. Last time out Red Bull got their tyre strategy wrong and lost pace to degradation late on. But going too long can lead to a tyre just giving up entirely, whereas a pit stop can take a lot of time.

    A safety car or VSC (virtual safety car, during which drivers must be 40% slower) are 'cheap' stops because you're just as slow pitting but the cars on-track are moving slower, so you lose relatively less time. Teams will be looking to put during a safety car if they can.

    But the short answer is I have no idea. One stop has normally been the way, but sometimes this year teams have been more willing to try unorthodox strategies, with mixed results.
  • StockyStocky Posts: 10,213

    Stocky said:

    Leon said:

    Stocky said:

    Leon said:

    Stocky said:

    Leon said:

    I made this comment last night at about 11pm



    “I reckon its time to play PB PLAGUE PREDICTIONS BINGO

    The world is teetering on the abyss. This could all blow over in a week and we go back to worrying about Boris's bald patch OR human civilisation will be snuffed out like a candle at Christingle, probably around Christingle

    In that light, what do we predict? I'll go first


    Lockdown: YES

    Lockdown when: introduced incrementally, but fast. Plan C from about mid December, Plan Z (a harsh lockdown) from around Jan 1

    Lockdown how long: not long. It won't do much. 3-4 weeks

    UK hospitalisations between now and end March 2022: 310,000

    UK deaths in the same period: 49,000”


    Interestingly it turns out I am bang in the middle of expert predictions:


    “In the most optimistic scenario, which assumes Omicron has low immune escape and booster jabs are highly effective, the model projects between 1 December and 31 April:
    20.9 million infections
    175,000 hospital admissions
    24,700 deaths

    In the most pessimistic scenario, which assumes Omicron has high immune escape and booster jabs are less effective, the model projects between 1 December and 31 April:
    34.2 million infections
    492,000 hospital admissions
    74,900 deaths”

    Sometimes I scare MYSELF

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-59621029

    "UK hospitalisations between now and end March 2022: 310,000"

    What does that mean? I presume you mean the total of UK daily new hospitalisations due to Covid? If so that's 310,000/15 weeks = 20,666 per week on average. (About 800 currently)
    Eh? It’s around 800 a DAY at the moment

    https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details/healthcare
    Apologies - yes sorry 5600 pw - I realised this. But my point is - that 5600 will average st 20,666 from now to the end of the first quarter is massive in itself but would necessitate a MUCH larger figure somewhere in that quarter to bring up the mean to 20,666.
    Total covid admissions so far. 600,000. I’m predicting omicron will add roughly 50% to that over the winter

    If I say so myself, I’m still impressed by my amateur epidemiology.

    This morning the best scientific brains in the country - virologists to mathematicians - came up with their predictions of deaths by omicron


    Best case: 24,700

    Worst case: 74,900


    Last night, hours before, at about 11pm after two gins and several wines, I predicted

    My case: 49,100

    Absolute bullseye. Smack bang in the middle. Quite frankly the government could save squillions by sacking all their modellers and hiring me to do it once a week after dinner for about an hour. They could pay me in Tikves Barovo
    Ok, I can see why you are panicking.

    I hope and think you are way off.
    Well, if @Leon counts as panicking then so are all the bloody modellers who have come up yet again with scary numbers and graphs.

    Maybe third or is it fourth time they will get lucky and get the right numbers.
    Yes but there are modellers who come up with not-scary numbers and graphs but all we hear about is the panicking ones.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,663

    Disappointing...

    409,760 booster vaccinations in Flag of United Kingdom exc Wales yesterday (372,557 the previous Friday)

    Flag of England 362,502
    Flag of Scotland 36,014
    NI 11,244

    https://twitter.com/HugoGye/status/1469675418055843842?s=20

    HMG have been living off a stale "world-beating vaccine success" narrative for far too long imo.
    To be fair, the root cause of this problem is the JCVI. They told government, no boosters are a luxury, you only need to give them to a very select group of old people.

    JCVI and SAGE not meeting at all during August and SAGE only once during September is criminal.

    But definitely since Zahawi went, the new vaccines minister is never seen nor appears to do anything.
    Advisers advise; governments decide.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,859
    On R4 at 1730: Nick Robinson talks to the Foreign Secretary Liz Truss about mounting threats abroad, whether she's modelling herself on Mrs Thatcher and why she avoided Christmas parties last year.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,424
    dixiedean said:

    Omicron news from Your Man on the Spot.

    Just got the Test and Trace phone call. They are clearly worried.
    Have been told to isolate for 10 days from peak symptoms, not first, as the official guidelines state.
    They were far more bothered about timings, symptoms and about the date and type of vaccine I'd had than contacts.
    He sounded concerned that I had tested negative from first sore throat (Saturday) through to peak (Tuesday), only positive LFT on Wednesday.
    This was similar for the folk I very strongly suspect I caught it from. They were both also largely recovered and 4 and 6 days in by the time they recorded a positive test. Implying that the LFT may not function well for this variant.
    A 4 or 6 or maybe more day window between symptoms and a positive isn't great. Neither for controlling the spread, nor for the economy if everyone with a cold is now a suspected case.
    Have received an immediate follow up saying I am suspected omicron. Which fits with the facts, as I was, if anything, more careful in the week leading up to my booster than before. Really didn't engage in any risky close contact. It was sitting a couple of metres apart chatting for half an hour. In a group of half a dozen rather than exclusively with the infected. And we were side by side, not facing.
    Not great really.

    Dixiedean. Your man on the infected spot.

    'A 4 or 6 or maybe more day window between symptoms and a positive isn't great. Neither for controlling the spread, nor for the economy if everyone with a cold is now a suspected case.'

    Thanks for that. Very concerning, especially in view of our family's Christmas arrangements.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,134
    edited December 2021
    Nigelb said:

    ping said:

    Stocky said:

    kinabalu said:

    Stocky said:

    kinabalu said:

    Stocky said:

    kinabalu said:

    valleyboy said:

    Stocky said:

    Stocky said:

    Stocky said:

    Scott_xP said:

    “I’d strongly urge the government to drop the vote on vaccine passports.”

    Conservative MP, Tobias Ellwood says the government needs to “repair” trust with the British people, if they are going to bring in new COVID guidance.


    Get #COVID19 updates: https://trib.al/oqKZkSu https://twitter.com/SkyNews/status/1469636560987594761/video/1

    Hunting the unvaxxed is the new national sport - hasn't Ellwood heard?
    Ridiculous comment. No one's 'hunting' them - just preventing their stupidity impacting the sensible. A bit like the smoking regs.
    Well, I exaggerate for comic effect.

    There is no doubt that this group are being relegated to second-class citizens. Vax Passports will be popular despite vaccination always being set-up as a personal choice. An example of the tyranny of the majority if you like. It is disingenuous because our route out of this - vaccine discovery - was never predicated on everyone agreeing to take the vaccine (which was never going to happen and we knew it).

    I think someone deciding not to get vaccinated is making a big mistake and will try to persuade them otherwise by looking at all evidence and the pros and cons. But I truly dislike current mass sentiment over this issue, it's a nasty atmosphere.
    Apols for my over-reaction - took you too seriously.

    I'd be interested to know if/where you think my smoking analogy falls down?
    I think it's a pretty good analogy. I disagree that smoking should be banned wholesale but agree that it is acceptable that smoking shouldn't be allowed in a pub for example and, instead, an outside area can accommodate them.

    But if I'm totally honest with you I was opposed to the smoking ban in the first place. Just as when I was young I was opposed to mandatory seat belts. I've come on-board on both these issues given time, though I still don't think that the odd fag in a pub or trip to the shops unbelted should be policed draconianly.
    I am regularly grateful that it is.

    I gave up going to pubs in the 90s because I got fed up of coming home with my clothes, hair, and skin stinking, never mind the (probably low but not zero) passive-smoking risks.
    As I matured(sic) I hated smoking in pubs to the extent I rarely went in one. I was eternally grateful when the smoking ban came in. My wife and I are now very regular pub meal goers.
    Cannot understand how anyone(and I am an ex smoker) can enjoy someone puffing away next to them.
    I'd support a total legal ban on cigarettes. It's the only way to get me off the things and I bet that applies to many other addicts.
    I assume then you are against legalisation of cannabis?
    No, that's fine. All I do is Marlboro Golds.
    So you are for a ban on cigarettes but think that cannabis should be legal?
    Well I'd vote for a ban on cigs through sheer personal interest. But on the principle, I do think the case for smoking being illegal is far stronger than for soft drugs or alcohol. Smoking has absolutely zero benefit or utility to anybody. It's 100% downside. On every level it's a bad thing. There are no redeeming factors. The one and only reason for it being legal is that it's legal now. If it were invented tomorrow it wouldn't have a chance of being allowed.
    Zero utility? You don't think people enjoy smoking?
    We (I’m a smoker) enjoy satiating the craving. It’s not really enjoyment. We look forward to the calm, pleasant sensation after getting our fix.

    It’s a stupid, nasty, dangerous habit. Despite what I said in my previous post, I still wish smoking had been illegal when I was growing up. I almost certainly wouldn’t be addicted now.

    I just think there’s something wrong with the way NZ is going about it.
    Yes, there’s a fair amount of research showing it’s as hard to quit as the most addictive hard drugs, but far less pleasurable.
    It's an insidious addiction. You mention hard drugs and funnily enough I'm toying with an idea atm whereby what I'll do is pretend I AM on hard drugs and I'll take appropriate action - go rent somewhere quiet for 2 weeks, take no cigs and none of those bullshit replacement things like patches and lozenges and gum (which are still nicotine) and then I'll go Cold Turkey as if it really were Heroin I was needing to get off to save my life. I think that might work for me. But then must not NOT slide back on return to orbit. Which is the issue, of course. A Marlboro Gold doesn't look like a needle or a spoon. It looks far less dark and dangerous. As I say - insidious. That's the word.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,991
    edited December 2021

    Disappointing...

    409,760 booster vaccinations in Flag of United Kingdom exc Wales yesterday (372,557 the previous Friday)

    Flag of England 362,502
    Flag of Scotland 36,014
    NI 11,244

    https://twitter.com/HugoGye/status/1469675418055843842?s=20

    HMG have been living off a stale "world-beating vaccine success" narrative for far too long imo.
    To be fair, the root cause of this problem is the JCVI. They told government, no boosters are a luxury, you only need to give them to a very select group of old people.

    JCVI and SAGE not meeting at all during August and SAGE only once during September is criminal.

    But definitely since Zahawi went, the new vaccines minister is never seen nor appears to do anything.
    Advisers advise; governments decide.
    No, not on something like vaccinations. You really have to have to do what they say, just like the MHRA. There is enough issue with anti-vaxxers, vaccine hesitancy etc, if you just say no we are totally overruling the scientists on this there will be hell to pay.

    Lets phrase the question this way, do you trust any minister of this government to understand scientific papers on vaccine trials? If Boris stood up and say we are ignoring the advice of Professor Lim Wei Shen, I have read the studies, they look good to me....go get your shot. vroom vroooooooommmm...

    You running down to get jabbed?

    AND...the JCVI wouldn't decide, that was the problem. The government asked them several times and they said they couldn't give advice until a new study was completed. It was deliberate dragging their feet, because their ideological position was the rest of the world needed vaccinating before giving boosters.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,663

    Mr. Pointer, I saw Mr. Mortimer post yesterday, I think.

    On F1: typically, Abu Dhabi has been tricky for passing but they have rejigged it to try and make overtaking easier. Last time out Red Bull got their tyre strategy wrong and lost pace to degradation late on. But going too long can lead to a tyre just giving up entirely, whereas a pit stop can take a lot of time.

    A safety car or VSC (virtual safety car, during which drivers must be 40% slower) are 'cheap' stops because you're just as slow pitting but the cars on-track are moving slower, so you lose relatively less time. Teams will be looking to put during a safety car if they can.

    But the short answer is I have no idea. One stop has normally been the way, but sometimes this year teams have been more willing to try unorthodox strategies, with mixed results.

    Thanks - appreciated!
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,070
    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Stocky said:

    kinabalu said:

    Stocky said:

    kinabalu said:

    Stocky said:

    kinabalu said:

    valleyboy said:

    Stocky said:

    Stocky said:

    Stocky said:

    Scott_xP said:

    “I’d strongly urge the government to drop the vote on vaccine passports.”

    Conservative MP, Tobias Ellwood says the government needs to “repair” trust with the British people, if they are going to bring in new COVID guidance.


    Get #COVID19 updates: https://trib.al/oqKZkSu https://twitter.com/SkyNews/status/1469636560987594761/video/1

    Hunting the unvaxxed is the new national sport - hasn't Ellwood heard?
    Ridiculous comment. No one's 'hunting' them - just preventing their stupidity impacting the sensible. A bit like the smoking regs.
    Well, I exaggerate for comic effect.

    There is no doubt that this group are being relegated to second-class citizens. Vax Passports will be popular despite vaccination always being set-up as a personal choice. An example of the tyranny of the majority if you like. It is disingenuous because our route out of this - vaccine discovery - was never predicated on everyone agreeing to take the vaccine (which was never going to happen and we knew it).

    I think someone deciding not to get vaccinated is making a big mistake and will try to persuade them otherwise by looking at all evidence and the pros and cons. But I truly dislike current mass sentiment over this issue, it's a nasty atmosphere.
    Apols for my over-reaction - took you too seriously.

    I'd be interested to know if/where you think my smoking analogy falls down?
    I think it's a pretty good analogy. I disagree that smoking should be banned wholesale but agree that it is acceptable that smoking shouldn't be allowed in a pub for example and, instead, an outside area can accommodate them.

    But if I'm totally honest with you I was opposed to the smoking ban in the first place. Just as when I was young I was opposed to mandatory seat belts. I've come on-board on both these issues given time, though I still don't think that the odd fag in a pub or trip to the shops unbelted should be policed draconianly.
    I am regularly grateful that it is.

    I gave up going to pubs in the 90s because I got fed up of coming home with my clothes, hair, and skin stinking, never mind the (probably low but not zero) passive-smoking risks.
    As I matured(sic) I hated smoking in pubs to the extent I rarely went in one. I was eternally grateful when the smoking ban came in. My wife and I are now very regular pub meal goers.
    Cannot understand how anyone(and I am an ex smoker) can enjoy someone puffing away next to them.
    I'd support a total legal ban on cigarettes. It's the only way to get me off the things and I bet that applies to many other addicts.
    I assume then you are against legalisation of cannabis?
    No, that's fine. All I do is Marlboro Golds.
    So you are for a ban on cigarettes but think that cannabis should be legal?
    Well I'd vote for a ban on cigs through sheer personal interest. But on the principle, I do think the case for smoking being illegal is far stronger than for soft drugs or alcohol. Smoking has absolutely zero benefit or utility to anybody. It's 100% downside. On every level it's a bad thing. There are no redeeming factors. The one and only reason for it being legal is that it's legal now. If it were invented tomorrow it wouldn't have a chance of being allowed.
    Zero utility? You don't think people enjoy smoking?
    I know they don't. It's quelling nicotine withdrawal pangs, hitting the clock on the next lot building up until they must be quelled again. The 'pleasure' is simply relief at the temporary removal of the twitchy anxious gnawing sensation the addiction itself creates. Smokers are rats on a wheel. Ruining their health, stinking up the place, throwing their money away. Many try to convince themselves otherwise for self-esteem purposes. But it's bollocks.
    Nicotine is such a pathetic addiction. Smelly and dirty, and almost zero pleasure, apart from a tiny buzz early in the habit and then just the relief of the craving. Smokers are twats

    Heroin makes much more sense, in terms. Heroin brings an intense sensual and mental pleasure, the relief of all pain and anxieties, a true bliss which has been compared to a prolonged, refined orgasm. Of course the problem is the addiction which will put you on your back in a urinous stairwell within a decade, or in the grave, or in prison, unless you are lucky, but even at the end the pleasure of the hit is greater than that of a stupid fag
    I never dared try harder drugs for just that reason.
    Agree about the idiocy of cigarettes. If I could never have started I’d have taken that - difficult to quit if you started young.
  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 5,331

    Subsamples are useless

    I'm most excited by the YouGov subsample which shows the SNP taking 2% of the vote in London.
    I'd definitely vote for them if they stood in Ealing Central and Acton.
  • StockyStocky Posts: 10,213

    HYUFD said:

    algarkirk said:

    Scott_xP said:

    How Boris became the Tories’ new political contagion | Evening Standard https://www.standard.co.uk/insider/how-boris-johnson-became-tories-new-political-contagion-b971162.html

    Which is why Hunt is in with a shout, as one of the tiny number of possible PMs who is not mad, and unassociated with this government.

    Hunt net favourable -25%, Sunak net favourable +3%.

    If Boris goes Sunak remains the only viable alternative who has a net positive rating still, at least with Yougov
    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/explore/public_figure/Jeremy_Hunt
    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/explore/public_figure/Rishi_Sunak
    And hopefully the Tories will be aware of my £20 bet at 250/1 on Sunak being the next PM
    I'm sure Ladbrokes are!
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,208
    I agree with this thread. Incumbents get re-elected on delivery. Incumbents get to choose their KPIs and say, we have delivered X, Y and Z as promised - what have the opposition done for you?

    Which is why Plan B is a gift from the government to Labour. Wes Streeting can say, Labour is working hard to keep you safe and the NHS protected, while the Tories argue amongst themselves.

    https://mobile.twitter.com/NIHargrave/status/1469663533356965889
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,405
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Stocky said:

    Leon said:

    Stocky said:

    Leon said:

    I made this comment last night at about 11pm



    “I reckon its time to play PB PLAGUE PREDICTIONS BINGO

    The world is teetering on the abyss. This could all blow over in a week and we go back to worrying about Boris's bald patch OR human civilisation will be snuffed out like a candle at Christingle, probably around Christingle

    In that light, what do we predict? I'll go first


    Lockdown: YES

    Lockdown when: introduced incrementally, but fast. Plan C from about mid December, Plan Z (a harsh lockdown) from around Jan 1

    Lockdown how long: not long. It won't do much. 3-4 weeks

    UK hospitalisations between now and end March 2022: 310,000

    UK deaths in the same period: 49,000”


    Interestingly it turns out I am bang in the middle of expert predictions:


    “In the most optimistic scenario, which assumes Omicron has low immune escape and booster jabs are highly effective, the model projects between 1 December and 31 April:
    20.9 million infections
    175,000 hospital admissions
    24,700 deaths

    In the most pessimistic scenario, which assumes Omicron has high immune escape and booster jabs are less effective, the model projects between 1 December and 31 April:
    34.2 million infections
    492,000 hospital admissions
    74,900 deaths”

    Sometimes I scare MYSELF

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-59621029

    "UK hospitalisations between now and end March 2022: 310,000"

    What does that mean? I presume you mean the total of UK daily new hospitalisations due to Covid? If so that's 310,000/15 weeks = 20,666 per week on average. (About 800 currently)
    Eh? It’s around 800 a DAY at the moment

    https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details/healthcare
    Apologies - yes sorry 5600 pw - I realised this. But my point is - that 5600 will average st 20,666 from now to the end of the first quarter is massive in itself but would necessitate a MUCH larger figure somewhere in that quarter to bring up the mean to 20,666.
    Total covid admissions so far. 600,000. I’m predicting omicron will add roughly 50% to that over the winter

    If I say so myself, I’m still impressed by my amateur epidemiology.

    This morning the best scientific brains in the country - virologists to mathematicians - came up with their predictions of deaths by omicron


    Best case: 24,700

    Worst case: 74,900


    Last night, hours before, at about 11pm after two gins and several wines, I predicted

    My case: 49,100

    Absolute bullseye. Smack bang in the middle. Quite frankly the government could save squillions by sacking all their modellers and hiring me to do it once a week after dinner for about an hour. They could pay me in Tikves Barovo
    None of which has actually happened yet...
    You are kind of missing the point of "predictions", and also missing my point, on top. Impressive
    I understand your point, you think you’ve achieved something by coming in the ball park of the modellers. Fine. Well done.
    However, these are the same modellers who predicted so poorly in July, and have been widely derided, not least on here.
    My point, I don’t buy their low and high points, so the fact that your guesstimate is in the middle means little.
  • Nigelb said:

    ping said:

    Stocky said:

    kinabalu said:

    Stocky said:

    kinabalu said:

    Stocky said:

    kinabalu said:

    valleyboy said:

    Stocky said:

    Stocky said:

    Stocky said:

    Scott_xP said:

    “I’d strongly urge the government to drop the vote on vaccine passports.”

    Conservative MP, Tobias Ellwood says the government needs to “repair” trust with the British people, if they are going to bring in new COVID guidance.


    Get #COVID19 updates: https://trib.al/oqKZkSu https://twitter.com/SkyNews/status/1469636560987594761/video/1

    Hunting the unvaxxed is the new national sport - hasn't Ellwood heard?
    Ridiculous comment. No one's 'hunting' them - just preventing their stupidity impacting the sensible. A bit like the smoking regs.
    Well, I exaggerate for comic effect.

    There is no doubt that this group are being relegated to second-class citizens. Vax Passports will be popular despite vaccination always being set-up as a personal choice. An example of the tyranny of the majority if you like. It is disingenuous because our route out of this - vaccine discovery - was never predicated on everyone agreeing to take the vaccine (which was never going to happen and we knew it).

    I think someone deciding not to get vaccinated is making a big mistake and will try to persuade them otherwise by looking at all evidence and the pros and cons. But I truly dislike current mass sentiment over this issue, it's a nasty atmosphere.
    Apols for my over-reaction - took you too seriously.

    I'd be interested to know if/where you think my smoking analogy falls down?
    I think it's a pretty good analogy. I disagree that smoking should be banned wholesale but agree that it is acceptable that smoking shouldn't be allowed in a pub for example and, instead, an outside area can accommodate them.

    But if I'm totally honest with you I was opposed to the smoking ban in the first place. Just as when I was young I was opposed to mandatory seat belts. I've come on-board on both these issues given time, though I still don't think that the odd fag in a pub or trip to the shops unbelted should be policed draconianly.
    I am regularly grateful that it is.

    I gave up going to pubs in the 90s because I got fed up of coming home with my clothes, hair, and skin stinking, never mind the (probably low but not zero) passive-smoking risks.
    As I matured(sic) I hated smoking in pubs to the extent I rarely went in one. I was eternally grateful when the smoking ban came in. My wife and I are now very regular pub meal goers.
    Cannot understand how anyone(and I am an ex smoker) can enjoy someone puffing away next to them.
    I'd support a total legal ban on cigarettes. It's the only way to get me off the things and I bet that applies to many other addicts.
    I assume then you are against legalisation of cannabis?
    No, that's fine. All I do is Marlboro Golds.
    So you are for a ban on cigarettes but think that cannabis should be legal?
    Well I'd vote for a ban on cigs through sheer personal interest. But on the principle, I do think the case for smoking being illegal is far stronger than for soft drugs or alcohol. Smoking has absolutely zero benefit or utility to anybody. It's 100% downside. On every level it's a bad thing. There are no redeeming factors. The one and only reason for it being legal is that it's legal now. If it were invented tomorrow it wouldn't have a chance of being allowed.
    Zero utility? You don't think people enjoy smoking?
    We (I’m a smoker) enjoy satiating the craving. It’s not really enjoyment. We look forward to the calm, pleasant sensation after getting our fix.

    It’s a stupid, nasty, dangerous habit. Despite what I said in my previous post, I still wish smoking had been illegal when I was growing up. I almost certainly wouldn’t be addicted now.

    I just think there’s something wrong with the way NZ is going about it.
    Yes, there’s a fair amount of research showing it’s as hard to quit as the most addictive hard drugs, but far less pleasurable.
    I heard somewhere that the 'capture rate' of cigarettes - i.e. the percentage of casual users who go on become hardcore addicts - is actually worse than heroin.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,405

    dixiedean said:

    Omicron news from Your Man on the Spot.

    Just got the Test and Trace phone call. They are clearly worried.
    Have been told to isolate for 10 days from peak symptoms, not first, as the official guidelines state.
    They were far more bothered about timings, symptoms and about the date and type of vaccine I'd had than contacts.
    He sounded concerned that I had tested negative from first sore throat (Saturday) through to peak (Tuesday), only positive LFT on Wednesday.
    This was similar for the folk I very strongly suspect I caught it from. They were both also largely recovered and 4 and 6 days in by the time they recorded a positive test. Implying that the LFT may not function well for this variant.
    A 4 or 6 or maybe more day window between symptoms and a positive isn't great. Neither for controlling the spread, nor for the economy if everyone with a cold is now a suspected case.
    Have received an immediate follow up saying I am suspected omicron. Which fits with the facts, as I was, if anything, more careful in the week leading up to my booster than before. Really didn't engage in any risky close contact. It was sitting a couple of metres apart chatting for half an hour. In a group of half a dozen rather than exclusively with the infected. And we were side by side, not facing.
    Not great really.

    Dixiedean. Your man on the infected spot.

    'A 4 or 6 or maybe more day window between symptoms and a positive isn't great. Neither for controlling the spread, nor for the economy if everyone with a cold is now a suspected case.'

    Thanks for that. Very concerning, especially in view of our family's Christmas arrangements.
    Not good, but the fact that your friends recovered easily is great.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277
    dixiedean said:

    Omicron news from Your Man on the Spot.

    Just got the Test and Trace phone call. They are clearly worried.
    Have been told to isolate for 10 days from peak symptoms, not first, as the official guidelines state.
    They were far more bothered about timings, symptoms and about the date and type of vaccine I'd had than contacts.
    He sounded concerned that I had tested negative from first sore throat (Saturday) through to peak (Tuesday), only positive LFT on Wednesday.
    This was similar for the folk I very strongly suspect I caught it from. They were both also largely recovered and 4 and 6 days in by the time they recorded a positive test. Implying that the LFT may not function well for this variant.
    A 4 or 6 or maybe more day window between symptoms and a positive isn't great. Neither for controlling the spread, nor for the economy if everyone with a cold is now a suspected case.
    Have received an immediate follow up saying I am suspected omicron. Which fits with the facts, as I was, if anything, more careful in the week leading up to my booster than before. Really didn't engage in any risky close contact. It was sitting a couple of metres apart chatting for half an hour. In a group of half a dozen rather than exclusively with the infected. And we were side by side, not facing.
    Not great really.

    Dixiedean. Your man on the infected spot.

    Fascinating, but also, of course, frightening. My sympathies

    They do sound worried about Omicron

    Get well soon, old boy
  • state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 5,813
    edited December 2021
    kinabalu said:

    Nigelb said:

    ping said:

    Stocky said:

    kinabalu said:

    Stocky said:

    kinabalu said:

    Stocky said:

    kinabalu said:

    valleyboy said:

    Stocky said:

    Stocky said:

    Stocky said:

    Scott_xP said:

    “I’d strongly urge the government to drop the vote on vaccine passports.”

    Conservative MP, Tobias Ellwood says the government needs to “repair” trust with the British people, if they are going to bring in new COVID guidance.


    Get #COVID19 updates: https://trib.al/oqKZkSu https://twitter.com/SkyNews/status/1469636560987594761/video/1

    Hunting the unvaxxed is the new national sport - hasn't Ellwood heard?
    Ridiculous comment. No one's 'hunting' them - just preventing their stupidity impacting the sensible. A bit like the smoking regs.
    Well, I exaggerate for comic effect.

    There is no doubt that this group are being relegated to second-class citizens. Vax Passports will be popular despite vaccination always being set-up as a personal choice. An example of the tyranny of the majority if you like. It is disingenuous because our route out of this - vaccine discovery - was never predicated on everyone agreeing to take the vaccine (which was never going to happen and we knew it).

    I think someone deciding not to get vaccinated is making a big mistake and will try to persuade them otherwise by looking at all evidence and the pros and cons. But I truly dislike current mass sentiment over this issue, it's a nasty atmosphere.
    Apols for my over-reaction - took you too seriously.

    I'd be interested to know if/where you think my smoking analogy falls down?
    I think it's a pretty good analogy. I disagree that smoking should be banned wholesale but agree that it is acceptable that smoking shouldn't be allowed in a pub for example and, instead, an outside area can accommodate them.

    But if I'm totally honest with you I was opposed to the smoking ban in the first place. Just as when I was young I was opposed to mandatory seat belts. I've come on-board on both these issues given time, though I still don't think that the odd fag in a pub or trip to the shops unbelted should be policed draconianly.
    I am regularly grateful that it is.

    I gave up going to pubs in the 90s because I got fed up of coming home with my clothes, hair, and skin stinking, never mind the (probably low but not zero) passive-smoking risks.
    As I matured(sic) I hated smoking in pubs to the extent I rarely went in one. I was eternally grateful when the smoking ban came in. My wife and I are now very regular pub meal goers.
    Cannot understand how anyone(and I am an ex smoker) can enjoy someone puffing away next to them.
    I'd support a total legal ban on cigarettes. It's the only way to get me off the things and I bet that applies to many other addicts.
    I assume then you are against legalisation of cannabis?
    No, that's fine. All I do is Marlboro Golds.
    So you are for a ban on cigarettes but think that cannabis should be legal?
    Well I'd vote for a ban on cigs through sheer personal interest. But on the principle, I do think the case for smoking being illegal is far stronger than for soft drugs or alcohol. Smoking has absolutely zero benefit or utility to anybody. It's 100% downside. On every level it's a bad thing. There are no redeeming factors. The one and only reason for it being legal is that it's legal now. If it were invented tomorrow it wouldn't have a chance of being allowed.
    Zero utility? You don't think people enjoy smoking?
    We (I’m a smoker) enjoy satiating the craving. It’s not really enjoyment. We look forward to the calm, pleasant sensation after getting our fix.

    It’s a stupid, nasty, dangerous habit. Despite what I said in my previous post, I still wish smoking had been illegal when I was growing up. I almost certainly wouldn’t be addicted now.

    I just think there’s something wrong with the way NZ is going about it.
    Yes, there’s a fair amount of research showing it’s as hard to quit as the most addictive hard drugs, but far less pleasurable.
    It's an insidious addiction. You mention hard drugs and funnily enough I'm toying with an idea atm whereby what I'll do is pretend I AM on hard drugs and I'll take appropriate action - go rent somewhere quiet for 2 weeks, take no cigs and none of those bullshit replacement things like patches and lozenges and gum (which are still nicotine) and then I'll go Cold Turkey as if it really were Heroin I was needing to get off to save my life. I think that might work for me. But then must not NOT slide back on return to orbit. Which is the issue, of course. A Marlboro Gold doesn't look like a needle or a spoon. It looks far less dark and dangerous. As I say - insidious. That's the word.
    I would argue that smoking is far less of a problem to society than drinking or gambling (I do all three in moderation which I think leads to a perfect existence!)). An addict at smoking is far less of a societal/family problem than an alcoholic or out of control gambler.Yes costs on NHS might be higher but less pension paid to a heavy smoker on average . Can people stop trying to ban fun FFS
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,663
    edited December 2021

    Disappointing...

    409,760 booster vaccinations in Flag of United Kingdom exc Wales yesterday (372,557 the previous Friday)

    Flag of England 362,502
    Flag of Scotland 36,014
    NI 11,244

    https://twitter.com/HugoGye/status/1469675418055843842?s=20

    HMG have been living off a stale "world-beating vaccine success" narrative for far too long imo.
    To be fair, the root cause of this problem is the JCVI. They told government, no boosters are a luxury, you only need to give them to a very select group of old people.

    JCVI and SAGE not meeting at all during August and SAGE only once during September is criminal.

    But definitely since Zahawi went, the new vaccines minister is never seen nor appears to do anything.
    Advisers advise; governments decide.
    No, not on something like vaccinations. You really have to have to do what they say, just like the MHRA. There is enough issue with anti-vaxxers, vaccine hesitancy etc, if you just say no we are totally overruling the scientists on this there will be hell to pay.

    Lets phrase the question this way, do you trust any minister of this government to understand scientific papers on vaccine trials? If Boris stood up and say we are ignoring Professor Lim Wei Shen, I have read the studies, they look good to me....
    I guess it depends on the details. If JCVI gave a flat 100% "don't boost" or "don't vaccinate" children then you have a point. But if, as I suspect they gave the scientific pros and cons and an "on balance..." then I think HMG have to take the wider picture into account.

    You're not telling me that HMG have followed every piece of Sage advice on NPIs?

    I wonder if we'll ever find out the details.

    Edit: JCVI/Sage not meeting at all in August - why didn't the government force them to?
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,802

    Disappointing...

    409,760 booster vaccinations in Flag of United Kingdom exc Wales yesterday (372,557 the previous Friday)

    Flag of England 362,502
    Flag of Scotland 36,014
    NI 11,244

    https://twitter.com/HugoGye/status/1469675418055843842?s=20

    HMG have been living off a stale "world-beating vaccine success" narrative for far too long imo.
    To be fair, the root cause of this problem is the JCVI. They told government, no boosters are a luxury, you only need to give them to a very select group of old people.

    JCVI and SAGE not meeting at all during August and SAGE only once during September is criminal.

    But definitely since Zahawi went, the new vaccines minister is never seen nor appears to do anything.
    Advisers advise; governments decide.
    Yes, which is what Javid has done since he became Health Secretary. Hancock was completely useless, much of our lateness to vaccinate kids and get the booster programme rolling earlier is down to his lack of leadership, very much a follower. I'm told Javid lit a fire under the JCVI on day 1 and forced them into making a decision rather than prevaricate, he also narrowed their scope to just reducing infection and hospitalisation rates, before that they had a much wider remit to consider which meant they could drag out decisions for months.

    What we're really missing out on is proactive outreach to 60+ people who need third doses, second doses and first doses. We should have a massive door knocking campaign explaining the benefits of getting the next dose to people who haven't had them, everything we're doing wrt vaccines is very passive and there just seems to be a lack of urgency.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,991
    edited December 2021

    Disappointing...

    409,760 booster vaccinations in Flag of United Kingdom exc Wales yesterday (372,557 the previous Friday)

    Flag of England 362,502
    Flag of Scotland 36,014
    NI 11,244

    https://twitter.com/HugoGye/status/1469675418055843842?s=20

    HMG have been living off a stale "world-beating vaccine success" narrative for far too long imo.
    To be fair, the root cause of this problem is the JCVI. They told government, no boosters are a luxury, you only need to give them to a very select group of old people.

    JCVI and SAGE not meeting at all during August and SAGE only once during September is criminal.

    But definitely since Zahawi went, the new vaccines minister is never seen nor appears to do anything.
    Advisers advise; governments decide.
    No, not on something like vaccinations. You really have to have to do what they say, just like the MHRA. There is enough issue with anti-vaxxers, vaccine hesitancy etc, if you just say no we are totally overruling the scientists on this there will be hell to pay.

    Lets phrase the question this way, do you trust any minister of this government to understand scientific papers on vaccine trials? If Boris stood up and say we are ignoring Professor Lim Wei Shen, I have read the studies, they look good to me....
    I guess it depends on the details. If JCVI gave a flat 100% "don't boost" or "don't vaccinate" children then you have a point. But if, as I suspect they gave the scientific pros and cons and an "on balance..." then I think HMG have to take the wider picture into account.

    You're not telling me that HMG have followed every piece of Sage advice on NPIs?

    I wonder if we'll ever find out the details.
    For several months, they wouldn't give any advice at all, saying they needs more data. Then they gave some wishy washy advice over kids. Then again, we need to wait for more data about boosters.

    The general approach via SAGE is different, as every decision is risk assessment and huge amount of unknowns and uncertainties. Medicines and vaccinations, there is a very serious process, and no Western government would dare cut the corners or not follow the exact advice.

    e.g. their initial advice on boosters was not before 6 months. No government is going to say right, we are ignoring that, everybody come in 2-3 months. Its like telling people, well the scientific research says that you must only take 2 tablets a day, then Boris saying take 4 just to be certain.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Stocky said:

    Leon said:

    Stocky said:

    Leon said:

    I made this comment last night at about 11pm



    “I reckon its time to play PB PLAGUE PREDICTIONS BINGO

    The world is teetering on the abyss. This could all blow over in a week and we go back to worrying about Boris's bald patch OR human civilisation will be snuffed out like a candle at Christingle, probably around Christingle

    In that light, what do we predict? I'll go first


    Lockdown: YES

    Lockdown when: introduced incrementally, but fast. Plan C from about mid December, Plan Z (a harsh lockdown) from around Jan 1

    Lockdown how long: not long. It won't do much. 3-4 weeks

    UK hospitalisations between now and end March 2022: 310,000

    UK deaths in the same period: 49,000”


    Interestingly it turns out I am bang in the middle of expert predictions:


    “In the most optimistic scenario, which assumes Omicron has low immune escape and booster jabs are highly effective, the model projects between 1 December and 31 April:
    20.9 million infections
    175,000 hospital admissions
    24,700 deaths

    In the most pessimistic scenario, which assumes Omicron has high immune escape and booster jabs are less effective, the model projects between 1 December and 31 April:
    34.2 million infections
    492,000 hospital admissions
    74,900 deaths”

    Sometimes I scare MYSELF

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-59621029

    "UK hospitalisations between now and end March 2022: 310,000"

    What does that mean? I presume you mean the total of UK daily new hospitalisations due to Covid? If so that's 310,000/15 weeks = 20,666 per week on average. (About 800 currently)
    Eh? It’s around 800 a DAY at the moment

    https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details/healthcare
    Apologies - yes sorry 5600 pw - I realised this. But my point is - that 5600 will average st 20,666 from now to the end of the first quarter is massive in itself but would necessitate a MUCH larger figure somewhere in that quarter to bring up the mean to 20,666.
    Total covid admissions so far. 600,000. I’m predicting omicron will add roughly 50% to that over the winter

    If I say so myself, I’m still impressed by my amateur epidemiology.

    This morning the best scientific brains in the country - virologists to mathematicians - came up with their predictions of deaths by omicron


    Best case: 24,700

    Worst case: 74,900


    Last night, hours before, at about 11pm after two gins and several wines, I predicted

    My case: 49,100

    Absolute bullseye. Smack bang in the middle. Quite frankly the government could save squillions by sacking all their modellers and hiring me to do it once a week after dinner for about an hour. They could pay me in Tikves Barovo
    None of which has actually happened yet...
    You are kind of missing the point of "predictions", and also missing my point, on top. Impressive
    I understand your point, you think you’ve achieved something by coming in the ball park of the modellers. Fine. Well done.
    However, these are the same modellers who predicted so poorly in July, and have been widely derided, not least on here.
    My point, I don’t buy their low and high points, so the fact that your guesstimate is in the middle means little.
    It means I have now read so much epidemiology I can do a professional job lying on my back while half perusing XVideos and with one eye on Masterchef the Semi Final, despite having zero training

    That's the point, dumbkopf

    Of course, as you rightly say, it is highly arguable the professional epidemiologists are idiots who keep getting it wrong, so all that has happened is that I have joined their misguided groupthink
  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 5,331

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    These Red Wall sub-samples from the latest YouGov spell smelly pants time for Conservative strategists. Looks like their vote is retreating to their traditional heartland: the south of England.

    North: Lab 45% Con 32%
    Midlands/Wales: Lab 37% Con 35%
    London: Lab 47% Con 24%
    Rest of South: Con 38% Lab 34%
    Scotland: SNP 51% Con 26% Lab 13%

    https://docs.cdn.yougov.com/dpbft003db/TheTimes_VI_211209_W.pdf

    So Conservatives actually up in Scotland on 2019 then, even if down in England and still ahead in their heartland of the South.

    The Conservatives can win a narrow majority or most seats without the Northern RedWall they got in 2019 but they do need to win the Midlands/Wales to do so. Fortunately on those numbers the Tories are still doing better in the Midlands/Wales than they are nationally, even if Labour are now narrowly ahead there
    Scottish Conservative voting intention = significant
    SNP voting intention = irrelevant

    What a strange world True Blue Tories inhabitant.
    Scottish Tory MPs though can get Labour and LD Unionist tactical votes v the SNP, while their counterparts south of the border have no chance of getting any tactical votes except from maybe RefUK voters
    Ross is going to find it much harder persuading SLab and SLD supporters to lend the Tories their votes. Johnson is quite literally repulsive.
    I was quite impressed with his forthright distancing of himself from Johnson.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,663
    dixiedean said:

    Omicron news from Your Man on the Spot.

    Just got the Test and Trace phone call. They are clearly worried.
    Have been told to isolate for 10 days from peak symptoms, not first, as the official guidelines state.
    They were far more bothered about timings, symptoms and about the date and type of vaccine I'd had than contacts.
    He sounded concerned that I had tested negative from first sore throat (Saturday) through to peak (Tuesday), only positive LFT on Wednesday.
    This was similar for the folk I very strongly suspect I caught it from. They were both also largely recovered and 4 and 6 days in by the time they recorded a positive test. Implying that the LFT may not function well for this variant.
    A 4 or 6 or maybe more day window between symptoms and a positive isn't great. Neither for controlling the spread, nor for the economy if everyone with a cold is now a suspected case.
    Have received an immediate follow up saying I am suspected omicron. Which fits with the facts, as I was, if anything, more careful in the week leading up to my booster than before. Really didn't engage in any risky close contact. It was sitting a couple of metres apart chatting for half an hour. In a group of half a dozen rather than exclusively with the infected. And we were side by side, not facing.
    Not great really.

    Dixiedean. Your man on the infected spot.

    Very concerning for you and your family, and for the country/world tbh.

    Get well soon!
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,663
    edited December 2021

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    These Red Wall sub-samples from the latest YouGov spell smelly pants time for Conservative strategists. Looks like their vote is retreating to their traditional heartland: the south of England.

    North: Lab 45% Con 32%
    Midlands/Wales: Lab 37% Con 35%
    London: Lab 47% Con 24%
    Rest of South: Con 38% Lab 34%
    Scotland: SNP 51% Con 26% Lab 13%

    https://docs.cdn.yougov.com/dpbft003db/TheTimes_VI_211209_W.pdf

    So Conservatives actually up in Scotland on 2019 then, even if down in England and still ahead in their heartland of the South.

    The Conservatives can win a narrow majority or most seats without the Northern RedWall they got in 2019 but they do need to win the Midlands/Wales to do so. Fortunately on those numbers the Tories are still doing better in the Midlands/Wales than they are nationally, even if Labour are now narrowly ahead there
    Scottish Conservative voting intention = significant
    SNP voting intention = irrelevant

    What a strange world True Blue Tories inhabitant.
    Scottish Tory MPs though can get Labour and LD Unionist tactical votes v the SNP, while their counterparts south of the border have no chance of getting any tactical votes except from maybe RefUK voters
    Ross is going to find it much harder persuading SLab and SLD supporters to lend the Tories their votes. Johnson is quite literally repulsive.
    I was quite impressed with his forthright distancing of himself from Johnson.
    ... to little or no effect.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,208
    MattW said:

    FF43 said:

    FF43 said:

    Farooq said:

    So on a scale of 1 to totally fucked, where sits the PM today?

    8. He's drinking in the last chance saloon and a crowd of voters from North Salop are waiting outside to have a word.
    The noisier ones want to run him out of town, but there are quieter ones who might just step in to save him.
    The problem with Brexit is, and has been since 2016, is that no-one has done the damage limitation on it. At some point people will have to face up to it and accept the UK will be cutting deals with a largely indifferent European Union with very little influence over the outcomes. We're not at the point yet.
    Was interesting to see the Daily Express put the boot in over trading performance. Brexit has taken the global issues of the last 18 months and made them significantly worse for us. And thats before the hellfest starts on 1st January. Despite us imposing the restrictions and red tape we demanded so much later than envisaged, we still do not remotely have the capacity to cope with the BA/HMRC workload that is about to smash us over the head.
    Thing is, damage limitation requires the UK to make concessions and publicly commit to them. Passively not doing things isn't going to work.

    An example. The US apparently won't drop steel tariffs until the UK comes to agreement with the EU over the Northern Ireland Protocol. Quietly dropping the idea of using A16 won't be enough to get the US tariffs removed. The UK will need to make some kind of commitment to not using it by agreeing something else, which happens to be same as the Irish and EU demands.

    The US tariffs aren't simply an embarrassment, in that the EU gets something the UK doesn't. UK steel firms are now at a competitive disadvantage because they have tariffs and the competition doesn't.

    So the Brexiteer government must decide if it prioritises the hypothetical possibility of calling Article 16 over the future of an important industry in Red Wall seats. This can't be fudged.

    On another topic it looks like the UK and Jersey will reissue the demanded French fishing licences, as predicted.

    There's no point discussing whether this is good or bad. I guess for different reasons both Remainers and Leavers think it's bad, which is why there's been no market for damage limitation up to now. It's simply how things are going to be from now on. But I can see people reacting badly.
    I don't see any of those being that way.

    Article 16 is an article in the Treaty designed to be used in appropriate circumstances. The issue with Sleepy Joe is what constitutes a sustainable and peace-preserving arrangement. It is quite possible that Biden is talking out of his Rs, and his demands (if he has made them) undermine stability - he appears to be following a Simon Coveney lead. A16 has been built up into an existential earthquake, which is a huge exaggeration of what it is.

    On Fishing some will be granted, but not all. UK Gov position will be that those granted have been where suitable evidence has been provided. Macron has been demanding 100% and indulging himself in Putin panto, and he will have to back down.

    Biden has also guaranteed that the countervailing UK on USA tariffs are continued, since the steel ones were the other half of a tariff-tariff pair introduced by the USA and the EU.

    I see that this morning we have a trilateral agreement on total allowable catches between UK/EU/Norway for next year.
    There will inevitably be an element of "Bring the boys home and declare victory" (Vietnam reference).

    It doesn't matter whether Article 16 is being misinterpreted, which is my point. Does the UK government want the steel tariffs removed, or doesn't it? The other lot don't have to be reasonable, (in my irrelevant view they aren't, particularly)
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,424

    Nigelb said:

    ping said:

    Stocky said:

    kinabalu said:

    Stocky said:

    kinabalu said:

    Stocky said:

    kinabalu said:

    valleyboy said:

    Stocky said:

    Stocky said:

    Stocky said:

    Scott_xP said:

    “I’d strongly urge the government to drop the vote on vaccine passports.”

    Conservative MP, Tobias Ellwood says the government needs to “repair” trust with the British people, if they are going to bring in new COVID guidance.


    Get #COVID19 updates: https://trib.al/oqKZkSu https://twitter.com/SkyNews/status/1469636560987594761/video/1

    Hunting the unvaxxed is the new national sport - hasn't Ellwood heard?
    Ridiculous comment. No one's 'hunting' them - just preventing their stupidity impacting the sensible. A bit like the smoking regs.
    Well, I exaggerate for comic effect.

    There is no doubt that this group are being relegated to second-class citizens. Vax Passports will be popular despite vaccination always being set-up as a personal choice. An example of the tyranny of the majority if you like. It is disingenuous because our route out of this - vaccine discovery - was never predicated on everyone agreeing to take the vaccine (which was never going to happen and we knew it).

    I think someone deciding not to get vaccinated is making a big mistake and will try to persuade them otherwise by looking at all evidence and the pros and cons. But I truly dislike current mass sentiment over this issue, it's a nasty atmosphere.
    Apols for my over-reaction - took you too seriously.

    I'd be interested to know if/where you think my smoking analogy falls down?
    I think it's a pretty good analogy. I disagree that smoking should be banned wholesale but agree that it is acceptable that smoking shouldn't be allowed in a pub for example and, instead, an outside area can accommodate them.

    But if I'm totally honest with you I was opposed to the smoking ban in the first place. Just as when I was young I was opposed to mandatory seat belts. I've come on-board on both these issues given time, though I still don't think that the odd fag in a pub or trip to the shops unbelted should be policed draconianly.
    I am regularly grateful that it is.

    I gave up going to pubs in the 90s because I got fed up of coming home with my clothes, hair, and skin stinking, never mind the (probably low but not zero) passive-smoking risks.
    As I matured(sic) I hated smoking in pubs to the extent I rarely went in one. I was eternally grateful when the smoking ban came in. My wife and I are now very regular pub meal goers.
    Cannot understand how anyone(and I am an ex smoker) can enjoy someone puffing away next to them.
    I'd support a total legal ban on cigarettes. It's the only way to get me off the things and I bet that applies to many other addicts.
    I assume then you are against legalisation of cannabis?
    No, that's fine. All I do is Marlboro Golds.
    So you are for a ban on cigarettes but think that cannabis should be legal?
    Well I'd vote for a ban on cigs through sheer personal interest. But on the principle, I do think the case for smoking being illegal is far stronger than for soft drugs or alcohol. Smoking has absolutely zero benefit or utility to anybody. It's 100% downside. On every level it's a bad thing. There are no redeeming factors. The one and only reason for it being legal is that it's legal now. If it were invented tomorrow it wouldn't have a chance of being allowed.
    Zero utility? You don't think people enjoy smoking?
    We (I’m a smoker) enjoy satiating the craving. It’s not really enjoyment. We look forward to the calm, pleasant sensation after getting our fix.

    It’s a stupid, nasty, dangerous habit. Despite what I said in my previous post, I still wish smoking had been illegal when I was growing up. I almost certainly wouldn’t be addicted now.

    I just think there’s something wrong with the way NZ is going about it.
    Yes, there’s a fair amount of research showing it’s as hard to quit as the most addictive hard drugs, but far less pleasurable.
    I heard somewhere that the 'capture rate' of cigarettes - i.e. the percentage of casual users who go on become hardcore addicts - is actually worse than heroin.
    As a late teens/early 20's I had two strokes of luck, smoking-wise, although I didn't think one of them was at the time. At nineteen or so I had a girl-friend who smoked; one of the activities we enjoyed together. Sadly she went off to Uni and MET SOMEONE ELSE, and in trying to get over her I stopped smoking for about six months. However, when I went off to study and started again an older fellow student advised that if I didn't smoke until after 11am I probably would be able to give it up easily when I wanted to. And indeed, so it proved.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,663
    Are we expecting any Partygate bombshells in the Sundays tomorrow?

    I presume rumours of a red top having incriminating photos are... just that, rumours?
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,011

    DavidL said:

    "It is understood that Sunak was not at the event and was not aware of it taking place at the time."
    I live in a detached house in its own grounds. When a celebration occurs next door I can hear it from 100 metres away. Didn't Sunak or Johnson ask for the noise to be turned down? Or is Carrie's wallpaper so sound insulation efficient they couldn't hear anything?
    As I understand it Sunak doesn't live in Downing Street. Boris on the other hand....he doesn't have a leg to stand on, as his diary says he was away during the day, but back in London the evening of the big piss up.
    Does the Chancellor stay in the flat when he has been on the lash at a works party ... I mean late working breakfast?
    AFIK Dishy Rishi doesn't drink.
    He does. Drinks the tears from the howls of anguish of Boris's team as he outmanoeuvres them again and again.
    Drinking alcohol is, I understand, discouraged among Hindu's. Although I've known Hindu's who did, although rarely to excess.
    Have you ever met any Indian cricket fans? Restraint is not the first word that comes to mind.
    Yes. Agree. Noisy with it, too.
    However I've also been to a couple of Hindu weddings which were 'dry'. Much to the discomfort of some of the British guests.
    No such worries at Sikh weddings. Usually a bottle of Bacardi and a bottle of Chivas Regal plonked down in the middle of each table.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,070
    kinabalu said:

    Nigelb said:

    ping said:

    Stocky said:

    kinabalu said:

    Stocky said:

    kinabalu said:

    Stocky said:

    kinabalu said:

    valleyboy said:

    Stocky said:

    Stocky said:

    Stocky said:

    Scott_xP said:

    “I’d strongly urge the government to drop the vote on vaccine passports.”

    Conservative MP, Tobias Ellwood says the government needs to “repair” trust with the British people, if they are going to bring in new COVID guidance.


    Get #COVID19 updates: https://trib.al/oqKZkSu https://twitter.com/SkyNews/status/1469636560987594761/video/1

    Hunting the unvaxxed is the new national sport - hasn't Ellwood heard?
    Ridiculous comment. No one's 'hunting' them - just preventing their stupidity impacting the sensible. A bit like the smoking regs.
    Well, I exaggerate for comic effect.

    There is no doubt that this group are being relegated to second-class citizens. Vax Passports will be popular despite vaccination always being set-up as a personal choice. An example of the tyranny of the majority if you like. It is disingenuous because our route out of this - vaccine discovery - was never predicated on everyone agreeing to take the vaccine (which was never going to happen and we knew it).

    I think someone deciding not to get vaccinated is making a big mistake and will try to persuade them otherwise by looking at all evidence and the pros and cons. But I truly dislike current mass sentiment over this issue, it's a nasty atmosphere.
    Apols for my over-reaction - took you too seriously.

    I'd be interested to know if/where you think my smoking analogy falls down?
    I think it's a pretty good analogy. I disagree that smoking should be banned wholesale but agree that it is acceptable that smoking shouldn't be allowed in a pub for example and, instead, an outside area can accommodate them.

    But if I'm totally honest with you I was opposed to the smoking ban in the first place. Just as when I was young I was opposed to mandatory seat belts. I've come on-board on both these issues given time, though I still don't think that the odd fag in a pub or trip to the shops unbelted should be policed draconianly.
    I am regularly grateful that it is.

    I gave up going to pubs in the 90s because I got fed up of coming home with my clothes, hair, and skin stinking, never mind the (probably low but not zero) passive-smoking risks.
    As I matured(sic) I hated smoking in pubs to the extent I rarely went in one. I was eternally grateful when the smoking ban came in. My wife and I are now very regular pub meal goers.
    Cannot understand how anyone(and I am an ex smoker) can enjoy someone puffing away next to them.
    I'd support a total legal ban on cigarettes. It's the only way to get me off the things and I bet that applies to many other addicts.
    I assume then you are against legalisation of cannabis?
    No, that's fine. All I do is Marlboro Golds.
    So you are for a ban on cigarettes but think that cannabis should be legal?
    Well I'd vote for a ban on cigs through sheer personal interest. But on the principle, I do think the case for smoking being illegal is far stronger than for soft drugs or alcohol. Smoking has absolutely zero benefit or utility to anybody. It's 100% downside. On every level it's a bad thing. There are no redeeming factors. The one and only reason for it being legal is that it's legal now. If it were invented tomorrow it wouldn't have a chance of being allowed.
    Zero utility? You don't think people enjoy smoking?
    We (I’m a smoker) enjoy satiating the craving. It’s not really enjoyment. We look forward to the calm, pleasant sensation after getting our fix.

    It’s a stupid, nasty, dangerous habit. Despite what I said in my previous post, I still wish smoking had been illegal when I was growing up. I almost certainly wouldn’t be addicted now.

    I just think there’s something wrong with the way NZ is going about it.
    Yes, there’s a fair amount of research showing it’s as hard to quit as the most addictive hard drugs, but far less pleasurable.
    It's an insidious addiction. You mention hard drugs and funnily enough I'm toying with an idea atm whereby what I'll do is pretend I AM on hard drugs and I'll take appropriate action - go rent somewhere quiet for 2 weeks, take no cigs and none of those bullshit replacement things like patches and lozenges and gum (which are still nicotine) and then I'll go Cold Turkey as if it really were Heroin I was needing to get off to save my life. I think that might work for me. But then must not NOT slide back on return to orbit. Which is the issue, of course. A Marlboro Gold doesn't look like a needle or a spoon. It looks far less dark and dangerous. As I say - insidious. That's the word.
    Do it.
    Just decide it’s going to kill you if you don’t stop (fairly likely) and stop.
    You’ll feel crap for a few days, but a lot better within a fortnight just from cutting out the continuous inhalation of carbon monoxide.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,424

    dixiedean said:

    Omicron news from Your Man on the Spot.

    Just got the Test and Trace phone call. They are clearly worried.
    Have been told to isolate for 10 days from peak symptoms, not first, as the official guidelines state.
    They were far more bothered about timings, symptoms and about the date and type of vaccine I'd had than contacts.
    He sounded concerned that I had tested negative from first sore throat (Saturday) through to peak (Tuesday), only positive LFT on Wednesday.
    This was similar for the folk I very strongly suspect I caught it from. They were both also largely recovered and 4 and 6 days in by the time they recorded a positive test. Implying that the LFT may not function well for this variant.
    A 4 or 6 or maybe more day window between symptoms and a positive isn't great. Neither for controlling the spread, nor for the economy if everyone with a cold is now a suspected case.
    Have received an immediate follow up saying I am suspected omicron. Which fits with the facts, as I was, if anything, more careful in the week leading up to my booster than before. Really didn't engage in any risky close contact. It was sitting a couple of metres apart chatting for half an hour. In a group of half a dozen rather than exclusively with the infected. And we were side by side, not facing.
    Not great really.

    Dixiedean. Your man on the infected spot.

    'A 4 or 6 or maybe more day window between symptoms and a positive isn't great. Neither for controlling the spread, nor for the economy if everyone with a cold is now a suspected case.'

    Thanks for that. Very concerning, especially in view of our family's Christmas arrangements.
    Not good, but the fact that your friends recovered easily is great.
    Not my friends, but dixiedeans.
    Agree, though about recovery.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,991
    edited December 2021
    MaxPB said:

    Disappointing...

    409,760 booster vaccinations in Flag of United Kingdom exc Wales yesterday (372,557 the previous Friday)

    Flag of England 362,502
    Flag of Scotland 36,014
    NI 11,244

    https://twitter.com/HugoGye/status/1469675418055843842?s=20

    HMG have been living off a stale "world-beating vaccine success" narrative for far too long imo.
    To be fair, the root cause of this problem is the JCVI. They told government, no boosters are a luxury, you only need to give them to a very select group of old people.

    JCVI and SAGE not meeting at all during August and SAGE only once during September is criminal.

    But definitely since Zahawi went, the new vaccines minister is never seen nor appears to do anything.
    Advisers advise; governments decide.
    Yes, which is what Javid has done since he became Health Secretary. Hancock was completely useless, much of our lateness to vaccinate kids and get the booster programme rolling earlier is down to his lack of leadership, very much a follower. I'm told Javid lit a fire under the JCVI on day 1 and forced them into making a decision rather than prevaricate, he also narrowed their scope to just reducing infection and hospitalisation rates, before that they had a much wider remit to consider which meant they could drag out decisions for months.

    What we're really missing out on is proactive outreach to 60+ people who need third doses, second doses and first doses. We should have a massive door knocking campaign explaining the benefits of getting the next dose to people who haven't had them, everything we're doing wrt vaccines is very passive and there just seems to be a lack of urgency.
    This is definitely true, but the government couldn't go against for instance their recommendations on 6 months before a booster. Such "advice" can't be overruled, it isn't optional for any government, just as they couldn't allow vaccinations before they had been fully reviewed, although I am sure they knew they were safe and effective and would have loved to save more lives.

    What is lacking now is Zawahi seemed very proactive in getting jab rates up. The current vaccines minister, I have to google to remember, Thorpe?, totally invisible...
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,070

    kinabalu said:

    Nigelb said:

    ping said:

    Stocky said:

    kinabalu said:

    Stocky said:

    kinabalu said:

    Stocky said:

    kinabalu said:

    valleyboy said:

    Stocky said:

    Stocky said:

    Stocky said:

    Scott_xP said:

    “I’d strongly urge the government to drop the vote on vaccine passports.”

    Conservative MP, Tobias Ellwood says the government needs to “repair” trust with the British people, if they are going to bring in new COVID guidance.


    Get #COVID19 updates: https://trib.al/oqKZkSu https://twitter.com/SkyNews/status/1469636560987594761/video/1

    Hunting the unvaxxed is the new national sport - hasn't Ellwood heard?
    Ridiculous comment. No one's 'hunting' them - just preventing their stupidity impacting the sensible. A bit like the smoking regs.
    Well, I exaggerate for comic effect.

    There is no doubt that this group are being relegated to second-class citizens. Vax Passports will be popular despite vaccination always being set-up as a personal choice. An example of the tyranny of the majority if you like. It is disingenuous because our route out of this - vaccine discovery - was never predicated on everyone agreeing to take the vaccine (which was never going to happen and we knew it).

    I think someone deciding not to get vaccinated is making a big mistake and will try to persuade them otherwise by looking at all evidence and the pros and cons. But I truly dislike current mass sentiment over this issue, it's a nasty atmosphere.
    Apols for my over-reaction - took you too seriously.

    I'd be interested to know if/where you think my smoking analogy falls down?
    I think it's a pretty good analogy. I disagree that smoking should be banned wholesale but agree that it is acceptable that smoking shouldn't be allowed in a pub for example and, instead, an outside area can accommodate them.

    But if I'm totally honest with you I was opposed to the smoking ban in the first place. Just as when I was young I was opposed to mandatory seat belts. I've come on-board on both these issues given time, though I still don't think that the odd fag in a pub or trip to the shops unbelted should be policed draconianly.
    I am regularly grateful that it is.

    I gave up going to pubs in the 90s because I got fed up of coming home with my clothes, hair, and skin stinking, never mind the (probably low but not zero) passive-smoking risks.
    As I matured(sic) I hated smoking in pubs to the extent I rarely went in one. I was eternally grateful when the smoking ban came in. My wife and I are now very regular pub meal goers.
    Cannot understand how anyone(and I am an ex smoker) can enjoy someone puffing away next to them.
    I'd support a total legal ban on cigarettes. It's the only way to get me off the things and I bet that applies to many other addicts.
    I assume then you are against legalisation of cannabis?
    No, that's fine. All I do is Marlboro Golds.
    So you are for a ban on cigarettes but think that cannabis should be legal?
    Well I'd vote for a ban on cigs through sheer personal interest. But on the principle, I do think the case for smoking being illegal is far stronger than for soft drugs or alcohol. Smoking has absolutely zero benefit or utility to anybody. It's 100% downside. On every level it's a bad thing. There are no redeeming factors. The one and only reason for it being legal is that it's legal now. If it were invented tomorrow it wouldn't have a chance of being allowed.
    Zero utility? You don't think people enjoy smoking?
    We (I’m a smoker) enjoy satiating the craving. It’s not really enjoyment. We look forward to the calm, pleasant sensation after getting our fix.

    It’s a stupid, nasty, dangerous habit. Despite what I said in my previous post, I still wish smoking had been illegal when I was growing up. I almost certainly wouldn’t be addicted now.

    I just think there’s something wrong with the way NZ is going about it.
    Yes, there’s a fair amount of research showing it’s as hard to quit as the most addictive hard drugs, but far less pleasurable.
    It's an insidious addiction. You mention hard drugs and funnily enough I'm toying with an idea atm whereby what I'll do is pretend I AM on hard drugs and I'll take appropriate action - go rent somewhere quiet for 2 weeks, take no cigs and none of those bullshit replacement things like patches and lozenges and gum (which are still nicotine) and then I'll go Cold Turkey as if it really were Heroin I was needing to get off to save my life. I think that might work for me. But then must not NOT slide back on return to orbit. Which is the issue, of course. A Marlboro Gold doesn't look like a needle or a spoon. It looks far less dark and dangerous. As I say - insidious. That's the word.
    I would argue that smoking is far less of a problem to society than drinking or gambling (I do all three in moderation which I think leads to a perfect existence!)). An addict at smoking is far less of a societal/family problem than an alcoholic or out of control gambler.Yes costs on NHS might be higher but less pension paid to a heavy smoker on average . Can people stop trying to ban fun FFS
    Not so much of a problem to society, just the poor sods who smoke.
  • algarkirk said:

    Scott_xP said:

    How Boris became the Tories’ new political contagion | Evening Standard https://www.standard.co.uk/insider/how-boris-johnson-became-tories-new-political-contagion-b971162.html

    Which is why Hunt is in with a shout, as one of the tiny number of possible PMs who is not mad, and unassociated with this government.

    He has also had a "good COVID". Yes the criticism of why weren't better plans during his time at DoH (although it seems most expert stuff was about flu related outbreak), but during the past 18 months, he has done a better job than the opposition of constructive criticism.
    Hunt would be the "cut the losses" candidate- he'd be a better PM than BoJo or the cabinet alternatives, but he would lose in 2024, because he couldn't attempt to keep the 2019 coalition going.

    I suspect he'd lose by less than BoJo or Truss, and it would start the clock on the post Johnson era, but he'd lose.

    And the Conservatives don't seem ready to start on that journey yet.

    (My guess- the problem will be seen as Boris, not Johnsonism, which points to Truss getting the job. Which would be unwise.)
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,424
    edited December 2021

    MaxPB said:

    Disappointing...

    409,760 booster vaccinations in Flag of United Kingdom exc Wales yesterday (372,557 the previous Friday)

    Flag of England 362,502
    Flag of Scotland 36,014
    NI 11,244

    https://twitter.com/HugoGye/status/1469675418055843842?s=20

    HMG have been living off a stale "world-beating vaccine success" narrative for far too long imo.
    To be fair, the root cause of this problem is the JCVI. They told government, no boosters are a luxury, you only need to give them to a very select group of old people.

    JCVI and SAGE not meeting at all during August and SAGE only once during September is criminal.

    But definitely since Zahawi went, the new vaccines minister is never seen nor appears to do anything.
    Advisers advise; governments decide.
    Yes, which is what Javid has done since he became Health Secretary. Hancock was completely useless, much of our lateness to vaccinate kids and get the booster programme rolling earlier is down to his lack of leadership, very much a follower. I'm told Javid lit a fire under the JCVI on day 1 and forced them into making a decision rather than prevaricate, he also narrowed their scope to just reducing infection and hospitalisation rates, before that they had a much wider remit to consider which meant they could drag out decisions for months.

    What we're really missing out on is proactive outreach to 60+ people who need third doses, second doses and first doses. We should have a massive door knocking campaign explaining the benefits of getting the next dose to people who haven't had them, everything we're doing wrt vaccines is very passive and there just seems to be a lack of urgency.
    This is definitely true, but the government couldn't go against for instance their recommendations on 6 months before a booster.

    What is lacking now is Zawahi seemed very proactive in getting jab rates up. The current vaccines minister, I have to google to remember, Thorpe?, totally invisible...
    Chewed up and spat out on QT a week or so ago, IIRC.
  • StockyStocky Posts: 10,213

    HYUFD said:

    algarkirk said:

    Scott_xP said:

    How Boris became the Tories’ new political contagion | Evening Standard https://www.standard.co.uk/insider/how-boris-johnson-became-tories-new-political-contagion-b971162.html

    Which is why Hunt is in with a shout, as one of the tiny number of possible PMs who is not mad, and unassociated with this government.

    Hunt net favourable -25%, Sunak net favourable +3%.

    If Boris goes Sunak remains the only viable alternative who has a net positive rating still, at least with Yougov
    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/explore/public_figure/Jeremy_Hunt
    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/explore/public_figure/Rishi_Sunak
    And hopefully the Tories will be aware of my £20 bet at 250/1 on Sunak being the next PM
    I backed him (larger stake than you!) beginning November 2019, after hearing him interviewed by Nick Robinson on Political Thinking podcast.

    I'm pleased I keep a record of all my bets as I see that Ladbrokes don't allow you to see unsettled bets placed over a year ago - which is rather concerning.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,401
    Carnyx said:

    dixiedean said:

    Omicron news from Your Man on the Spot.

    Just got the Test and Trace phone call. They are clearly worried.
    Have been told to isolate for 10 days from peak symptoms, not first, as the official guidelines state.
    They were far more bothered about timings, symptoms and about the date and type of vaccine I'd had than contacts.
    He sounded concerned that I had tested negative from first sore throat (Saturday) through to peak (Tuesday), only positive LFT on Wednesday.
    This was similar for the folk I very strongly suspect I caught it from. They were both also largely recovered and 4 and 6 days in by the time they recorded a positive test. Implying that the LFT may not function well for this variant.
    A 4 or 6 or maybe more day window between symptoms and a positive isn't great. Neither for controlling the spread, nor for the economy if everyone with a cold is now a suspected case.
    Have received an immediate follow up saying I am suspected omicron. Which fits with the facts, as I was, if anything, more careful in the week leading up to my booster than before. Really didn't engage in any risky close contact. It was sitting a couple of metres apart chatting for half an hour. In a group of half a dozen rather than exclusively with the infected. And we were side by side, not facing.
    Not great really.

    Dixiedean. Your man on the infected spot.

    Poor you. Inside or outside? (the original event).
    Inside. But neither crowded nor unventilated.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,991
    edited December 2021

    MaxPB said:

    Disappointing...

    409,760 booster vaccinations in Flag of United Kingdom exc Wales yesterday (372,557 the previous Friday)

    Flag of England 362,502
    Flag of Scotland 36,014
    NI 11,244

    https://twitter.com/HugoGye/status/1469675418055843842?s=20

    HMG have been living off a stale "world-beating vaccine success" narrative for far too long imo.
    To be fair, the root cause of this problem is the JCVI. They told government, no boosters are a luxury, you only need to give them to a very select group of old people.

    JCVI and SAGE not meeting at all during August and SAGE only once during September is criminal.

    But definitely since Zahawi went, the new vaccines minister is never seen nor appears to do anything.
    Advisers advise; governments decide.
    Yes, which is what Javid has done since he became Health Secretary. Hancock was completely useless, much of our lateness to vaccinate kids and get the booster programme rolling earlier is down to his lack of leadership, very much a follower. I'm told Javid lit a fire under the JCVI on day 1 and forced them into making a decision rather than prevaricate, he also narrowed their scope to just reducing infection and hospitalisation rates, before that they had a much wider remit to consider which meant they could drag out decisions for months.

    What we're really missing out on is proactive outreach to 60+ people who need third doses, second doses and first doses. We should have a massive door knocking campaign explaining the benefits of getting the next dose to people who haven't had them, everything we're doing wrt vaccines is very passive and there just seems to be a lack of urgency.
    This is definitely true, but the government couldn't go against for instance their recommendations on 6 months before a booster.

    What is lacking now is Zawahi seemed very proactive in getting jab rates up. The current vaccines minister, I have to google to remember, Thorpe?, totally invisible...
    Chewed up and spat out on QT a week or so ago, IIRC.
    The fact she was wasting her time on QT says it all....we need to get vaccinations up to way over 500k a day, and dicking about on a tv show nobody watches, while I bet spending at least a day prepping for it.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,812
    Bizarre protest in a shopping centre in Dundee today by anti-vaxxers protesting against mandatory vaccination. Well organised, professional looking signs etc.

    Evolution and Darwinianism is all very well but its not a short term solution, is it?
  • Great call from Stodge - Guard Your Dreams wins the 3.00 ay Cheltenham.

    Thanks Stodgy!
  • Stocky said:

    HYUFD said:

    algarkirk said:

    Scott_xP said:

    How Boris became the Tories’ new political contagion | Evening Standard https://www.standard.co.uk/insider/how-boris-johnson-became-tories-new-political-contagion-b971162.html

    Which is why Hunt is in with a shout, as one of the tiny number of possible PMs who is not mad, and unassociated with this government.

    Hunt net favourable -25%, Sunak net favourable +3%.

    If Boris goes Sunak remains the only viable alternative who has a net positive rating still, at least with Yougov
    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/explore/public_figure/Jeremy_Hunt
    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/explore/public_figure/Rishi_Sunak
    And hopefully the Tories will be aware of my £20 bet at 250/1 on Sunak being the next PM
    I'm sure Ladbrokes are!
    I wonder how many people followed the tip and got on at 250/1?
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 13,497
    edited December 2021

    Great call from Stodge - Guard Your Dreams wins the 3.00 ay Cheltenham.

    Thanks Stodgy!

    5-1 👍🏻

    I was psychically trying to force the line off to the right 😆
  • Nigelb said:

    kinabalu said:

    Nigelb said:

    ping said:

    Stocky said:

    kinabalu said:

    Stocky said:

    kinabalu said:

    Stocky said:

    kinabalu said:

    valleyboy said:

    Stocky said:

    Stocky said:

    Stocky said:

    Scott_xP said:

    “I’d strongly urge the government to drop the vote on vaccine passports.”

    Conservative MP, Tobias Ellwood says the government needs to “repair” trust with the British people, if they are going to bring in new COVID guidance.


    Get #COVID19 updates: https://trib.al/oqKZkSu https://twitter.com/SkyNews/status/1469636560987594761/video/1

    Hunting the unvaxxed is the new national sport - hasn't Ellwood heard?
    Ridiculous comment. No one's 'hunting' them - just preventing their stupidity impacting the sensible. A bit like the smoking regs.
    Well, I exaggerate for comic effect.

    There is no doubt that this group are being relegated to second-class citizens. Vax Passports will be popular despite vaccination always being set-up as a personal choice. An example of the tyranny of the majority if you like. It is disingenuous because our route out of this - vaccine discovery - was never predicated on everyone agreeing to take the vaccine (which was never going to happen and we knew it).

    I think someone deciding not to get vaccinated is making a big mistake and will try to persuade them otherwise by looking at all evidence and the pros and cons. But I truly dislike current mass sentiment over this issue, it's a nasty atmosphere.
    Apols for my over-reaction - took you too seriously.

    I'd be interested to know if/where you think my smoking analogy falls down?
    I think it's a pretty good analogy. I disagree that smoking should be banned wholesale but agree that it is acceptable that smoking shouldn't be allowed in a pub for example and, instead, an outside area can accommodate them.

    But if I'm totally honest with you I was opposed to the smoking ban in the first place. Just as when I was young I was opposed to mandatory seat belts. I've come on-board on both these issues given time, though I still don't think that the odd fag in a pub or trip to the shops unbelted should be policed draconianly.
    I am regularly grateful that it is.

    I gave up going to pubs in the 90s because I got fed up of coming home with my clothes, hair, and skin stinking, never mind the (probably low but not zero) passive-smoking risks.
    As I matured(sic) I hated smoking in pubs to the extent I rarely went in one. I was eternally grateful when the smoking ban came in. My wife and I are now very regular pub meal goers.
    Cannot understand how anyone(and I am an ex smoker) can enjoy someone puffing away next to them.
    I'd support a total legal ban on cigarettes. It's the only way to get me off the things and I bet that applies to many other addicts.
    I assume then you are against legalisation of cannabis?
    No, that's fine. All I do is Marlboro Golds.
    So you are for a ban on cigarettes but think that cannabis should be legal?
    Well I'd vote for a ban on cigs through sheer personal interest. But on the principle, I do think the case for smoking being illegal is far stronger than for soft drugs or alcohol. Smoking has absolutely zero benefit or utility to anybody. It's 100% downside. On every level it's a bad thing. There are no redeeming factors. The one and only reason for it being legal is that it's legal now. If it were invented tomorrow it wouldn't have a chance of being allowed.
    Zero utility? You don't think people enjoy smoking?
    We (I’m a smoker) enjoy satiating the craving. It’s not really enjoyment. We look forward to the calm, pleasant sensation after getting our fix.

    It’s a stupid, nasty, dangerous habit. Despite what I said in my previous post, I still wish smoking had been illegal when I was growing up. I almost certainly wouldn’t be addicted now.

    I just think there’s something wrong with the way NZ is going about it.
    Yes, there’s a fair amount of research showing it’s as hard to quit as the most addictive hard drugs, but far less pleasurable.
    It's an insidious addiction. You mention hard drugs and funnily enough I'm toying with an idea atm whereby what I'll do is pretend I AM on hard drugs and I'll take appropriate action - go rent somewhere quiet for 2 weeks, take no cigs and none of those bullshit replacement things like patches and lozenges and gum (which are still nicotine) and then I'll go Cold Turkey as if it really were Heroin I was needing to get off to save my life. I think that might work for me. But then must not NOT slide back on return to orbit. Which is the issue, of course. A Marlboro Gold doesn't look like a needle or a spoon. It looks far less dark and dangerous. As I say - insidious. That's the word.
    I would argue that smoking is far less of a problem to society than drinking or gambling (I do all three in moderation which I think leads to a perfect existence!)). An addict at smoking is far less of a societal/family problem than an alcoholic or out of control gambler.Yes costs on NHS might be higher but less pension paid to a heavy smoker on average . Can people stop trying to ban fun FFS
    Not so much of a problem to society, just the poor sods who smoke.
    well its their body and their choice isnt it?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277
    edited December 2021
    Something a bit more cheering. A boffin who predicted US Covid deaths very accurately early on, and was also unpopularly pessimistic about variants, is more upbeat about Omicron. Reckons it is probably mild, maybe very mild

    https://edition.cnn.com/2021/12/09/opinions/infectious-disease-expert-warned-covid-19-deaths-bergen/index.html

    Caveat: he also admits he knows even less about this disease then he did a year ago, which is a pretty big pinch of salt

    Otherwise there is almost nothing about Omicron on the CNN website. @moonshine is right. It is absent from much international media, even tho it dominates ours. Why is this?

    Maybe it is just timing. Omicron has arrived here first (thanks to our many international links, and better sequencing) so we are alerted first. Also, lots of other countries - esp Europe - are still focused on Delta, and their own battles with that

    But look at Le Monde. It's not even talking about Delta. Poignantly, for those Scot Nats and Remoaners who believe we think constantly about them while they are barely aware of us, its most read story is about Boris Johnson's party, and one of its main stories if the Brexit fishing squabble. They are obsessed

    https://www.lemonde.fr/
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,401

    dixiedean said:

    Omicron news from Your Man on the Spot.

    Just got the Test and Trace phone call. They are clearly worried.
    Have been told to isolate for 10 days from peak symptoms, not first, as the official guidelines state.
    They were far more bothered about timings, symptoms and about the date and type of vaccine I'd had than contacts.
    He sounded concerned that I had tested negative from first sore throat (Saturday) through to peak (Tuesday), only positive LFT on Wednesday.
    This was similar for the folk I very strongly suspect I caught it from. They were both also largely recovered and 4 and 6 days in by the time they recorded a positive test. Implying that the LFT may not function well for this variant.
    A 4 or 6 or maybe more day window between symptoms and a positive isn't great. Neither for controlling the spread, nor for the economy if everyone with a cold is now a suspected case.
    Have received an immediate follow up saying I am suspected omicron. Which fits with the facts, as I was, if anything, more careful in the week leading up to my booster than before. Really didn't engage in any risky close contact. It was sitting a couple of metres apart chatting for half an hour. In a group of half a dozen rather than exclusively with the infected. And we were side by side, not facing.
    Not great really.

    Dixiedean. Your man on the infected spot.

    'A 4 or 6 or maybe more day window between symptoms and a positive isn't great. Neither for controlling the spread, nor for the economy if everyone with a cold is now a suspected case.'

    Thanks for that. Very concerning, especially in view of our family's Christmas arrangements.
    Yep. Our small cluster of 4 linked cases all had the same experience. Cold symptoms. Runny nose, sore throat. Multiple negative tests ranging from 4 to 6 days. Feel rough at the peak at the peak of it.
    Then test positive as we have turned the corner. There was a span of 8 days between the first of us positive and the last, so we knew to keep testing as we all had similar staggered symptoms.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,829
    Nigelb said:

    kinabalu said:

    Nigelb said:

    ping said:

    Stocky said:

    kinabalu said:

    Stocky said:

    kinabalu said:

    Stocky said:

    kinabalu said:

    valleyboy said:

    Stocky said:

    Stocky said:

    Stocky said:

    Scott_xP said:

    “I’d strongly urge the government to drop the vote on vaccine passports.”

    Conservative MP, Tobias Ellwood says the government needs to “repair” trust with the British people, if they are going to bring in new COVID guidance.


    Get #COVID19 updates: https://trib.al/oqKZkSu https://twitter.com/SkyNews/status/1469636560987594761/video/1

    Hunting the unvaxxed is the new national sport - hasn't Ellwood heard?
    Ridiculous comment. No one's 'hunting' them - just preventing their stupidity impacting the sensible. A bit like the smoking regs.
    Well, I exaggerate for comic effect.

    There is no doubt that this group are being relegated to second-class citizens. Vax Passports will be popular despite vaccination always being set-up as a personal choice. An example of the tyranny of the majority if you like. It is disingenuous because our route out of this - vaccine discovery - was never predicated on everyone agreeing to take the vaccine (which was never going to happen and we knew it).

    I think someone deciding not to get vaccinated is making a big mistake and will try to persuade them otherwise by looking at all evidence and the pros and cons. But I truly dislike current mass sentiment over this issue, it's a nasty atmosphere.
    Apols for my over-reaction - took you too seriously.

    I'd be interested to know if/where you think my smoking analogy falls down?
    I think it's a pretty good analogy. I disagree that smoking should be banned wholesale but agree that it is acceptable that smoking shouldn't be allowed in a pub for example and, instead, an outside area can accommodate them.

    But if I'm totally honest with you I was opposed to the smoking ban in the first place. Just as when I was young I was opposed to mandatory seat belts. I've come on-board on both these issues given time, though I still don't think that the odd fag in a pub or trip to the shops unbelted should be policed draconianly.
    I am regularly grateful that it is.

    I gave up going to pubs in the 90s because I got fed up of coming home with my clothes, hair, and skin stinking, never mind the (probably low but not zero) passive-smoking risks.
    As I matured(sic) I hated smoking in pubs to the extent I rarely went in one. I was eternally grateful when the smoking ban came in. My wife and I are now very regular pub meal goers.
    Cannot understand how anyone(and I am an ex smoker) can enjoy someone puffing away next to them.
    I'd support a total legal ban on cigarettes. It's the only way to get me off the things and I bet that applies to many other addicts.
    I assume then you are against legalisation of cannabis?
    No, that's fine. All I do is Marlboro Golds.
    So you are for a ban on cigarettes but think that cannabis should be legal?
    Well I'd vote for a ban on cigs through sheer personal interest. But on the principle, I do think the case for smoking being illegal is far stronger than for soft drugs or alcohol. Smoking has absolutely zero benefit or utility to anybody. It's 100% downside. On every level it's a bad thing. There are no redeeming factors. The one and only reason for it being legal is that it's legal now. If it were invented tomorrow it wouldn't have a chance of being allowed.
    Zero utility? You don't think people enjoy smoking?
    We (I’m a smoker) enjoy satiating the craving. It’s not really enjoyment. We look forward to the calm, pleasant sensation after getting our fix.

    It’s a stupid, nasty, dangerous habit. Despite what I said in my previous post, I still wish smoking had been illegal when I was growing up. I almost certainly wouldn’t be addicted now.

    I just think there’s something wrong with the way NZ is going about it.
    Yes, there’s a fair amount of research showing it’s as hard to quit as the most addictive hard drugs, but far less pleasurable.
    It's an insidious addiction. You mention hard drugs and funnily enough I'm toying with an idea atm whereby what I'll do is pretend I AM on hard drugs and I'll take appropriate action - go rent somewhere quiet for 2 weeks, take no cigs and none of those bullshit replacement things like patches and lozenges and gum (which are still nicotine) and then I'll go Cold Turkey as if it really were Heroin I was needing to get off to save my life. I think that might work for me. But then must not NOT slide back on return to orbit. Which is the issue, of course. A Marlboro Gold doesn't look like a needle or a spoon. It looks far less dark and dangerous. As I say - insidious. That's the word.
    I would argue that smoking is far less of a problem to society than drinking or gambling (I do all three in moderation which I think leads to a perfect existence!)). An addict at smoking is far less of a societal/family problem than an alcoholic or out of control gambler.Yes costs on NHS might be higher but less pension paid to a heavy smoker on average . Can people stop trying to ban fun FFS
    Not so much of a problem to society, just the poor sods who smoke.
    And their families, of course.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,134

    Nigelb said:

    ping said:

    Stocky said:

    kinabalu said:

    Stocky said:

    kinabalu said:

    Stocky said:

    kinabalu said:

    valleyboy said:

    Stocky said:

    Stocky said:

    Stocky said:

    Scott_xP said:

    “I’d strongly urge the government to drop the vote on vaccine passports.”

    Conservative MP, Tobias Ellwood says the government needs to “repair” trust with the British people, if they are going to bring in new COVID guidance.


    Get #COVID19 updates: https://trib.al/oqKZkSu https://twitter.com/SkyNews/status/1469636560987594761/video/1

    Hunting the unvaxxed is the new national sport - hasn't Ellwood heard?
    Ridiculous comment. No one's 'hunting' them - just preventing their stupidity impacting the sensible. A bit like the smoking regs.
    Well, I exaggerate for comic effect.

    There is no doubt that this group are being relegated to second-class citizens. Vax Passports will be popular despite vaccination always being set-up as a personal choice. An example of the tyranny of the majority if you like. It is disingenuous because our route out of this - vaccine discovery - was never predicated on everyone agreeing to take the vaccine (which was never going to happen and we knew it).

    I think someone deciding not to get vaccinated is making a big mistake and will try to persuade them otherwise by looking at all evidence and the pros and cons. But I truly dislike current mass sentiment over this issue, it's a nasty atmosphere.
    Apols for my over-reaction - took you too seriously.

    I'd be interested to know if/where you think my smoking analogy falls down?
    I think it's a pretty good analogy. I disagree that smoking should be banned wholesale but agree that it is acceptable that smoking shouldn't be allowed in a pub for example and, instead, an outside area can accommodate them.

    But if I'm totally honest with you I was opposed to the smoking ban in the first place. Just as when I was young I was opposed to mandatory seat belts. I've come on-board on both these issues given time, though I still don't think that the odd fag in a pub or trip to the shops unbelted should be policed draconianly.
    I am regularly grateful that it is.

    I gave up going to pubs in the 90s because I got fed up of coming home with my clothes, hair, and skin stinking, never mind the (probably low but not zero) passive-smoking risks.
    As I matured(sic) I hated smoking in pubs to the extent I rarely went in one. I was eternally grateful when the smoking ban came in. My wife and I are now very regular pub meal goers.
    Cannot understand how anyone(and I am an ex smoker) can enjoy someone puffing away next to them.
    I'd support a total legal ban on cigarettes. It's the only way to get me off the things and I bet that applies to many other addicts.
    I assume then you are against legalisation of cannabis?
    No, that's fine. All I do is Marlboro Golds.
    So you are for a ban on cigarettes but think that cannabis should be legal?
    Well I'd vote for a ban on cigs through sheer personal interest. But on the principle, I do think the case for smoking being illegal is far stronger than for soft drugs or alcohol. Smoking has absolutely zero benefit or utility to anybody. It's 100% downside. On every level it's a bad thing. There are no redeeming factors. The one and only reason for it being legal is that it's legal now. If it were invented tomorrow it wouldn't have a chance of being allowed.
    Zero utility? You don't think people enjoy smoking?
    We (I’m a smoker) enjoy satiating the craving. It’s not really enjoyment. We look forward to the calm, pleasant sensation after getting our fix.

    It’s a stupid, nasty, dangerous habit. Despite what I said in my previous post, I still wish smoking had been illegal when I was growing up. I almost certainly wouldn’t be addicted now.

    I just think there’s something wrong with the way NZ is going about it.
    Yes, there’s a fair amount of research showing it’s as hard to quit as the most addictive hard drugs, but far less pleasurable.
    I heard somewhere that the 'capture rate' of cigarettes - i.e. the percentage of casual users who go on become hardcore addicts - is actually worse than heroin.
    As a late teens/early 20's I had two strokes of luck, smoking-wise, although I didn't think one of them was at the time. At nineteen or so I had a girl-friend who smoked; one of the activities we enjoyed together. Sadly she went off to Uni and MET SOMEONE ELSE, and in trying to get over her I stopped smoking for about six months. However, when I went off to study and started again an older fellow student advised that if I didn't smoke until after 11am I probably would be able to give it up easily when I wanted to. And indeed, so it proved.
    Nice one and - yes - lucky. I bet you'd have kicked it anyway in middle age but it would've been harder.

    And if you hadn't you probably wouldn't now be OLD King Cole. :smile:
  • StockyStocky Posts: 10,213

    Stocky said:

    HYUFD said:

    algarkirk said:

    Scott_xP said:

    How Boris became the Tories’ new political contagion | Evening Standard https://www.standard.co.uk/insider/how-boris-johnson-became-tories-new-political-contagion-b971162.html

    Which is why Hunt is in with a shout, as one of the tiny number of possible PMs who is not mad, and unassociated with this government.

    Hunt net favourable -25%, Sunak net favourable +3%.

    If Boris goes Sunak remains the only viable alternative who has a net positive rating still, at least with Yougov
    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/explore/public_figure/Jeremy_Hunt
    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/explore/public_figure/Rishi_Sunak
    And hopefully the Tories will be aware of my £20 bet at 250/1 on Sunak being the next PM
    I'm sure Ladbrokes are!
    I wonder how many people followed the tip and got on at 250/1?
    Out of interest, can you see your bet in Lads unsettled bets history or is it not visible because it was over a year ago?
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,829
    dixiedean said:

    Carnyx said:

    dixiedean said:

    Omicron news from Your Man on the Spot.

    Just got the Test and Trace phone call. They are clearly worried.
    Have been told to isolate for 10 days from peak symptoms, not first, as the official guidelines state.
    They were far more bothered about timings, symptoms and about the date and type of vaccine I'd had than contacts.
    He sounded concerned that I had tested negative from first sore throat (Saturday) through to peak (Tuesday), only positive LFT on Wednesday.
    This was similar for the folk I very strongly suspect I caught it from. They were both also largely recovered and 4 and 6 days in by the time they recorded a positive test. Implying that the LFT may not function well for this variant.
    A 4 or 6 or maybe more day window between symptoms and a positive isn't great. Neither for controlling the spread, nor for the economy if everyone with a cold is now a suspected case.
    Have received an immediate follow up saying I am suspected omicron. Which fits with the facts, as I was, if anything, more careful in the week leading up to my booster than before. Really didn't engage in any risky close contact. It was sitting a couple of metres apart chatting for half an hour. In a group of half a dozen rather than exclusively with the infected. And we were side by side, not facing.
    Not great really.

    Dixiedean. Your man on the infected spot.

    Poor you. Inside or outside? (the original event).
    Inside. But neither crowded nor unventilated.
    Thanks. Not a good sign for the rest of us.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277
    Jesus effing Christ. Look at this weather. Four months of THIS
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,572
    Nigelb said:

    kinabalu said:

    Nigelb said:

    ping said:

    Stocky said:

    kinabalu said:

    Stocky said:

    kinabalu said:

    Stocky said:

    kinabalu said:

    valleyboy said:

    Stocky said:

    Stocky said:

    Stocky said:

    Scott_xP said:

    “I’d strongly urge the government to drop the vote on vaccine passports.”

    Conservative MP, Tobias Ellwood says the government needs to “repair” trust with the British people, if they are going to bring in new COVID guidance.


    Get #COVID19 updates: https://trib.al/oqKZkSu https://twitter.com/SkyNews/status/1469636560987594761/video/1

    Hunting the unvaxxed is the new national sport - hasn't Ellwood heard?
    Ridiculous comment. No one's 'hunting' them - just preventing their stupidity impacting the sensible. A bit like the smoking regs.
    Well, I exaggerate for comic effect.

    There is no doubt that this group are being relegated to second-class citizens. Vax Passports will be popular despite vaccination always being set-up as a personal choice. An example of the tyranny of the majority if you like. It is disingenuous because our route out of this - vaccine discovery - was never predicated on everyone agreeing to take the vaccine (which was never going to happen and we knew it).

    I think someone deciding not to get vaccinated is making a big mistake and will try to persuade them otherwise by looking at all evidence and the pros and cons. But I truly dislike current mass sentiment over this issue, it's a nasty atmosphere.
    Apols for my over-reaction - took you too seriously.

    I'd be interested to know if/where you think my smoking analogy falls down?
    I think it's a pretty good analogy. I disagree that smoking should be banned wholesale but agree that it is acceptable that smoking shouldn't be allowed in a pub for example and, instead, an outside area can accommodate them.

    But if I'm totally honest with you I was opposed to the smoking ban in the first place. Just as when I was young I was opposed to mandatory seat belts. I've come on-board on both these issues given time, though I still don't think that the odd fag in a pub or trip to the shops unbelted should be policed draconianly.
    I am regularly grateful that it is.

    I gave up going to pubs in the 90s because I got fed up of coming home with my clothes, hair, and skin stinking, never mind the (probably low but not zero) passive-smoking risks.
    As I matured(sic) I hated smoking in pubs to the extent I rarely went in one. I was eternally grateful when the smoking ban came in. My wife and I are now very regular pub meal goers.
    Cannot understand how anyone(and I am an ex smoker) can enjoy someone puffing away next to them.
    I'd support a total legal ban on cigarettes. It's the only way to get me off the things and I bet that applies to many other addicts.
    I assume then you are against legalisation of cannabis?
    No, that's fine. All I do is Marlboro Golds.
    So you are for a ban on cigarettes but think that cannabis should be legal?
    Well I'd vote for a ban on cigs through sheer personal interest. But on the principle, I do think the case for smoking being illegal is far stronger than for soft drugs or alcohol. Smoking has absolutely zero benefit or utility to anybody. It's 100% downside. On every level it's a bad thing. There are no redeeming factors. The one and only reason for it being legal is that it's legal now. If it were invented tomorrow it wouldn't have a chance of being allowed.
    Zero utility? You don't think people enjoy smoking?
    We (I’m a smoker) enjoy satiating the craving. It’s not really enjoyment. We look forward to the calm, pleasant sensation after getting our fix.

    It’s a stupid, nasty, dangerous habit. Despite what I said in my previous post, I still wish smoking had been illegal when I was growing up. I almost certainly wouldn’t be addicted now.

    I just think there’s something wrong with the way NZ is going about it.
    Yes, there’s a fair amount of research showing it’s as hard to quit as the most addictive hard drugs, but far less pleasurable.
    It's an insidious addiction. You mention hard drugs and funnily enough I'm toying with an idea atm whereby what I'll do is pretend I AM on hard drugs and I'll take appropriate action - go rent somewhere quiet for 2 weeks, take no cigs and none of those bullshit replacement things like patches and lozenges and gum (which are still nicotine) and then I'll go Cold Turkey as if it really were Heroin I was needing to get off to save my life. I think that might work for me. But then must not NOT slide back on return to orbit. Which is the issue, of course. A Marlboro Gold doesn't look like a needle or a spoon. It looks far less dark and dangerous. As I say - insidious. That's the word.
    I would argue that smoking is far less of a problem to society than drinking or gambling (I do all three in moderation which I think leads to a perfect existence!)). An addict at smoking is far less of a societal/family problem than an alcoholic or out of control gambler.Yes costs on NHS might be higher but less pension paid to a heavy smoker on average . Can people stop trying to ban fun FFS
    Not so much of a problem to society, just the poor sods who smoke.
    Tell that to Roy Castle and all the other victims of passive smoking ...
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,496
    Nigelb said:

    ping said:

    Stocky said:

    kinabalu said:

    Stocky said:

    kinabalu said:

    Stocky said:

    kinabalu said:

    valleyboy said:

    Stocky said:

    Stocky said:

    Stocky said:

    Scott_xP said:

    “I’d strongly urge the government to drop the vote on vaccine passports.”

    Conservative MP, Tobias Ellwood says the government needs to “repair” trust with the British people, if they are going to bring in new COVID guidance.


    Get #COVID19 updates: https://trib.al/oqKZkSu https://twitter.com/SkyNews/status/1469636560987594761/video/1

    Hunting the unvaxxed is the new national sport - hasn't Ellwood heard?
    Ridiculous comment. No one's 'hunting' them - just preventing their stupidity impacting the sensible. A bit like the smoking regs.
    Well, I exaggerate for comic effect.

    There is no doubt that this group are being relegated to second-class citizens. Vax Passports will be popular despite vaccination always being set-up as a personal choice. An example of the tyranny of the majority if you like. It is disingenuous because our route out of this - vaccine discovery - was never predicated on everyone agreeing to take the vaccine (which was never going to happen and we knew it).

    I think someone deciding not to get vaccinated is making a big mistake and will try to persuade them otherwise by looking at all evidence and the pros and cons. But I truly dislike current mass sentiment over this issue, it's a nasty atmosphere.
    Apols for my over-reaction - took you too seriously.

    I'd be interested to know if/where you think my smoking analogy falls down?
    I think it's a pretty good analogy. I disagree that smoking should be banned wholesale but agree that it is acceptable that smoking shouldn't be allowed in a pub for example and, instead, an outside area can accommodate them.

    But if I'm totally honest with you I was opposed to the smoking ban in the first place. Just as when I was young I was opposed to mandatory seat belts. I've come on-board on both these issues given time, though I still don't think that the odd fag in a pub or trip to the shops unbelted should be policed draconianly.
    I am regularly grateful that it is.

    I gave up going to pubs in the 90s because I got fed up of coming home with my clothes, hair, and skin stinking, never mind the (probably low but not zero) passive-smoking risks.
    As I matured(sic) I hated smoking in pubs to the extent I rarely went in one. I was eternally grateful when the smoking ban came in. My wife and I are now very regular pub meal goers.
    Cannot understand how anyone(and I am an ex smoker) can enjoy someone puffing away next to them.
    I'd support a total legal ban on cigarettes. It's the only way to get me off the things and I bet that applies to many other addicts.
    I assume then you are against legalisation of cannabis?
    No, that's fine. All I do is Marlboro Golds.
    So you are for a ban on cigarettes but think that cannabis should be legal?
    Well I'd vote for a ban on cigs through sheer personal interest. But on the principle, I do think the case for smoking being illegal is far stronger than for soft drugs or alcohol. Smoking has absolutely zero benefit or utility to anybody. It's 100% downside. On every level it's a bad thing. There are no redeeming factors. The one and only reason for it being legal is that it's legal now. If it were invented tomorrow it wouldn't have a chance of being allowed.
    Zero utility? You don't think people enjoy smoking?
    We (I’m a smoker) enjoy satiating the craving. It’s not really enjoyment. We look forward to the calm, pleasant sensation after getting our fix.

    It’s a stupid, nasty, dangerous habit. Despite what I said in my previous post, I still wish smoking had been illegal when I was growing up. I almost certainly wouldn’t be addicted now.

    I just think there’s something wrong with the way NZ is going about it.
    Yes, there’s a fair amount of research showing it’s as hard to quit as the most addictive hard drugs, but far less pleasurable.
    A very interesting point if true. Millions of people have managed to get themselves off nicotine without treatment, rehab, court orders, suicide, hallucinations, terrors, pink elephants, tremors and a media telling us it can't be done without massively expensive intervention.

  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,991
    edited December 2021
    Leon said:

    Something a bit more cheering. A boffin who predicted US Covid deaths very accurately early on, and was also unpopularly pessimistic about variants, is more upbeat about Omicron. Reckons it is probably mild, maybe very mild

    https://edition.cnn.com/2021/12/09/opinions/infectious-disease-expert-warned-covid-19-deaths-bergen/index.html

    Caveat: he also admits he knows even less about this disease then he did a year ago, which is a pretty big pinch of salt

    Otherwise there is almost nothing about Omicron on the CNN website. @moonshine is right. It is absent from much international media, even tho it dominates ours. Why is this?

    Maybe it is just timing. Omicron has arrived here first (thanks to our many international links, and better sequencing) so we are alerted first. Also, lots of other countries - esp Europe - are still focused on Delta, and their own battles with that

    But look at Le Monde. It's not even talking about Delta. Poignantly, for those Scot Nats and Remoaners who believe we think constantly about them while they are barely aware of us, its most read story is about Boris Johnson's party, and one of its main stories if the Brexit fishing squabble. They are obsessed

    https://www.lemonde.fr/

    CNN has long since become about proper news who role is to educate the Americans about important news from around the world. It is increasingly become a left of centre Fox News e.g. the other day they were banging on about the Fox News Christmas tree being burned down by some nutter tying it in with the Capitol Hill riots....

    https://edition.cnn.com/videos/business/2021/12/09/fox-news-coverage-christmas-tree-arson-outrage-brianna-keilar-roll-the-tape-newday-vpx.cnn/video/playlists/stories-worth-watching/
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277
    dixiedean said:

    dixiedean said:

    Omicron news from Your Man on the Spot.

    Just got the Test and Trace phone call. They are clearly worried.
    Have been told to isolate for 10 days from peak symptoms, not first, as the official guidelines state.
    They were far more bothered about timings, symptoms and about the date and type of vaccine I'd had than contacts.
    He sounded concerned that I had tested negative from first sore throat (Saturday) through to peak (Tuesday), only positive LFT on Wednesday.
    This was similar for the folk I very strongly suspect I caught it from. They were both also largely recovered and 4 and 6 days in by the time they recorded a positive test. Implying that the LFT may not function well for this variant.
    A 4 or 6 or maybe more day window between symptoms and a positive isn't great. Neither for controlling the spread, nor for the economy if everyone with a cold is now a suspected case.
    Have received an immediate follow up saying I am suspected omicron. Which fits with the facts, as I was, if anything, more careful in the week leading up to my booster than before. Really didn't engage in any risky close contact. It was sitting a couple of metres apart chatting for half an hour. In a group of half a dozen rather than exclusively with the infected. And we were side by side, not facing.
    Not great really.

    Dixiedean. Your man on the infected spot.

    'A 4 or 6 or maybe more day window between symptoms and a positive isn't great. Neither for controlling the spread, nor for the economy if everyone with a cold is now a suspected case.'

    Thanks for that. Very concerning, especially in view of our family's Christmas arrangements.
    Yep. Our small cluster of 4 linked cases all had the same experience. Cold symptoms. Runny nose, sore throat. Multiple negative tests ranging from 4 to 6 days. Feel rough at the peak at the peak of it.
    Then test positive as we have turned the corner. There was a span of 8 days between the first of us positive and the last, so we knew to keep testing as we all had similar staggered symptoms.
    Did you get contacted via Test and Trace and/or the NHS app?
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,401

    dixiedean said:

    Omicron news from Your Man on the Spot.

    Just got the Test and Trace phone call. They are clearly worried.
    Have been told to isolate for 10 days from peak symptoms, not first, as the official guidelines state.
    They were far more bothered about timings, symptoms and about the date and type of vaccine I'd had than contacts.
    He sounded concerned that I had tested negative from first sore throat (Saturday) through to peak (Tuesday), only positive LFT on Wednesday.
    This was similar for the folk I very strongly suspect I caught it from. They were both also largely recovered and 4 and 6 days in by the time they recorded a positive test. Implying that the LFT may not function well for this variant.
    A 4 or 6 or maybe more day window between symptoms and a positive isn't great. Neither for controlling the spread, nor for the economy if everyone with a cold is now a suspected case.
    Have received an immediate follow up saying I am suspected omicron. Which fits with the facts, as I was, if anything, more careful in the week leading up to my booster than before. Really didn't engage in any risky close contact. It was sitting a couple of metres apart chatting for half an hour. In a group of half a dozen rather than exclusively with the infected. And we were side by side, not facing.
    Not great really.

    Dixiedean. Your man on the infected spot.

    'A 4 or 6 or maybe more day window between symptoms and a positive isn't great. Neither for controlling the spread, nor for the economy if everyone with a cold is now a suspected case.'

    Thanks for that. Very concerning, especially in view of our family's Christmas arrangements.
    Not good, but the fact that your friends recovered easily is great.
    Indeed. We are all double vaxxed. One boostered too. And in good health which helps.
    Does suggest breakthrough is an issue, mind.
  • 633 additional confirmed cases of the #Omicron variant of #COVID19 have been reported across the UK.
    The total number of confirmed COVID-19 Omicron cases in the UK is 1,898.
  • StockyStocky Posts: 10,213

    633 additional confirmed cases of the #Omicron variant of #COVID19 have been reported across the UK.
    The total number of confirmed COVID-19 Omicron cases in the UK is 1,898.

    Do we know how many of the Omicron cases in UK have resulted in hospitalisation?
  • More rules could come next week, says Swinney
    https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-59617249
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,991
    edited December 2021
    Stocky said:

    633 additional confirmed cases of the #Omicron variant of #COVID19 have been reported across the UK.
    The total number of confirmed COVID-19 Omicron cases in the UK is 1,898.

    Do we know how many of the Omicron cases in UK have resulted in hospitalisation?
    Zero...but it is very early days and hardly any cases are getting sequenced. Tim Spector estimates it is now 8000 a day getting Omicron, so we should start to get an idea in the next couple of weeks if it is going to be a problem.
  • StockyStocky Posts: 10,213

    Stocky said:

    633 additional confirmed cases of the #Omicron variant of #COVID19 have been reported across the UK.
    The total number of confirmed COVID-19 Omicron cases in the UK is 1,898.

    Do we know how many of the Omicron cases in UK have resulted in hospitalisation?
    Zero...but it is very early days.
    How do you know that? Is it reported somewhere?
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,859
    John Humphreys: “ His problem is that many of his own MPs can’t stomach him. I was often stunned by the contempt leading figures showed for him when we were ‘off mic’ outside the Today studio.”

    “But then again, politics being the brutal game it is, that doesn’t necessarily matter. Most MPs have one single requirement of their leader — that he helps them keep their seat. And he’s been good at that so far. But the latest opinion polls show the ‘Boris effect’ is fading.”

    “This Christmas parties saga is only the latest in a long list of calamities. He gave Dominic Cummings his support after his flagrant breach of the Covid rules last year. It ended only when their personal relationship broke down. He tried, too, to keep Matt Hancock in his job after the then health secretary conducted an affair in his office — again, breaking Covid restrictions.”

    “And now ‘Wallpaper-gate’ is rearing its ugly head again, with more questions being raised about Johnson’s honesty after the Electoral Commission fined the Conservative Party £17,800 for breaking the law over its recording and reporting of who paid for redecorations at the PM’s personal flat. Just look at that trivial, pathetic list. If Johnson fears the verdict of history he’s right to do so.”
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 13,497

    Great call from Stodge - Guard Your Dreams wins the 3.00 ay Cheltenham.

    Thanks Stodgy!

    5-1 👍🏻

    I was psychically trying to force the line off to the right 😆
    Tommys Oscar too makes 2 from Stodge suggested Yankee today 🙂
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,134

    kinabalu said:

    Nigelb said:

    ping said:

    Stocky said:

    kinabalu said:

    Stocky said:

    kinabalu said:

    Stocky said:

    kinabalu said:

    valleyboy said:

    Stocky said:

    Stocky said:

    Stocky said:

    Scott_xP said:

    “I’d strongly urge the government to drop the vote on vaccine passports.”

    Conservative MP, Tobias Ellwood says the government needs to “repair” trust with the British people, if they are going to bring in new COVID guidance.


    Get #COVID19 updates: https://trib.al/oqKZkSu https://twitter.com/SkyNews/status/1469636560987594761/video/1

    Hunting the unvaxxed is the new national sport - hasn't Ellwood heard?
    Ridiculous comment. No one's 'hunting' them - just preventing their stupidity impacting the sensible. A bit like the smoking regs.
    Well, I exaggerate for comic effect.

    There is no doubt that this group are being relegated to second-class citizens. Vax Passports will be popular despite vaccination always being set-up as a personal choice. An example of the tyranny of the majority if you like. It is disingenuous because our route out of this - vaccine discovery - was never predicated on everyone agreeing to take the vaccine (which was never going to happen and we knew it).

    I think someone deciding not to get vaccinated is making a big mistake and will try to persuade them otherwise by looking at all evidence and the pros and cons. But I truly dislike current mass sentiment over this issue, it's a nasty atmosphere.
    Apols for my over-reaction - took you too seriously.

    I'd be interested to know if/where you think my smoking analogy falls down?
    I think it's a pretty good analogy. I disagree that smoking should be banned wholesale but agree that it is acceptable that smoking shouldn't be allowed in a pub for example and, instead, an outside area can accommodate them.

    But if I'm totally honest with you I was opposed to the smoking ban in the first place. Just as when I was young I was opposed to mandatory seat belts. I've come on-board on both these issues given time, though I still don't think that the odd fag in a pub or trip to the shops unbelted should be policed draconianly.
    I am regularly grateful that it is.

    I gave up going to pubs in the 90s because I got fed up of coming home with my clothes, hair, and skin stinking, never mind the (probably low but not zero) passive-smoking risks.
    As I matured(sic) I hated smoking in pubs to the extent I rarely went in one. I was eternally grateful when the smoking ban came in. My wife and I are now very regular pub meal goers.
    Cannot understand how anyone(and I am an ex smoker) can enjoy someone puffing away next to them.
    I'd support a total legal ban on cigarettes. It's the only way to get me off the things and I bet that applies to many other addicts.
    I assume then you are against legalisation of cannabis?
    No, that's fine. All I do is Marlboro Golds.
    So you are for a ban on cigarettes but think that cannabis should be legal?
    Well I'd vote for a ban on cigs through sheer personal interest. But on the principle, I do think the case for smoking being illegal is far stronger than for soft drugs or alcohol. Smoking has absolutely zero benefit or utility to anybody. It's 100% downside. On every level it's a bad thing. There are no redeeming factors. The one and only reason for it being legal is that it's legal now. If it were invented tomorrow it wouldn't have a chance of being allowed.
    Zero utility? You don't think people enjoy smoking?
    We (I’m a smoker) enjoy satiating the craving. It’s not really enjoyment. We look forward to the calm, pleasant sensation after getting our fix.

    It’s a stupid, nasty, dangerous habit. Despite what I said in my previous post, I still wish smoking had been illegal when I was growing up. I almost certainly wouldn’t be addicted now.

    I just think there’s something wrong with the way NZ is going about it.
    Yes, there’s a fair amount of research showing it’s as hard to quit as the most addictive hard drugs, but far less pleasurable.
    It's an insidious addiction. You mention hard drugs and funnily enough I'm toying with an idea atm whereby what I'll do is pretend I AM on hard drugs and I'll take appropriate action - go rent somewhere quiet for 2 weeks, take no cigs and none of those bullshit replacement things like patches and lozenges and gum (which are still nicotine) and then I'll go Cold Turkey as if it really were Heroin I was needing to get off to save my life. I think that might work for me. But then must not NOT slide back on return to orbit. Which is the issue, of course. A Marlboro Gold doesn't look like a needle or a spoon. It looks far less dark and dangerous. As I say - insidious. That's the word.
    I would argue that smoking is far less of a problem to society than drinking or gambling (I do all three in moderation which I think leads to a perfect existence!)). An addict at smoking is far less of a societal/family problem than an alcoholic or out of control gambler.Yes costs on NHS might be higher but less pension paid to a heavy smoker on average . Can people stop trying to ban fun FFS
    Smoking isn't fun - that's the fatal delusion - but I agree the damage to others is much greater from heavy drinking and gambling. That can be fun but it can also wreak havoc on people around and close to you. Smoking's no fun but you're in the main only hurting yourself.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,070
    With online gambling you just don’t get the vibe of the real thing.
    https://twitter.com/BeatinTheBookie/status/1468693497020571648
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,991
    edited December 2021
    Stocky said:

    Stocky said:

    633 additional confirmed cases of the #Omicron variant of #COVID19 have been reported across the UK.
    The total number of confirmed COVID-19 Omicron cases in the UK is 1,898.

    Do we know how many of the Omicron cases in UK have resulted in hospitalisation?
    Zero...but it is very early days.
    How do you know that? Is it reported somewhere?
    Yes it was, I don't have the link to hand. But it is meaningless really. It is a tiny sample, it is early days, and 1000s of Omicron cases aren't being labelled as such.

    What we do know is 2-3 weeks time most cases will be Omicron, then it will be pretty clear how many hospitalisations it results in.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277
    Farooq said:

    Leon said:

    They are obsessed

    Yes, they are obsessed. Whereas you, booming like a typhlotic prophet, trying to list the 999 names of Omicron before al-qāri'ah, are definitely not obsessed with anything.
    Ooh. Typhlotic! Nice word. Never heard. Will use
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 4,931
    edited December 2021
    From https://www.travellingtabby.com/scotland-coronavirus-tracker/ “There are currently 552 people in hospital throughout Scotland who have recently tested positive for the virus. This is 21 fewer than yesterday, and 53 fewer than a week ago.

    From that 552 number, 33 are currently in ICU. This is 7 fewer than yesterday, and 17 fewer than a week ago.”

    Good news re: Omicron or the lull before the storm? Or the NHS clearing the decks?
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,496
    edited December 2021

    algarkirk said:

    Scott_xP said:

    How Boris became the Tories’ new political contagion | Evening Standard https://www.standard.co.uk/insider/how-boris-johnson-became-tories-new-political-contagion-b971162.html

    Which is why Hunt is in with a shout, as one of the tiny number of possible PMs who is not mad, and unassociated with this government.

    He has also had a "good COVID". Yes the criticism of why weren't better plans during his time at DoH (although it seems most expert stuff was about flu related outbreak), but during the past 18 months, he has done a better job than the opposition of constructive criticism.
    Hunt would be the "cut the losses" candidate- he'd be a better PM than BoJo or the cabinet alternatives, but he would lose in 2024, because he couldn't attempt to keep the 2019 coalition going.

    I suspect he'd lose by less than BoJo or Truss, and it would start the clock on the post Johnson era, but he'd lose.

    And the Conservatives don't seem ready to start on that journey yet.

    (My guess- the problem will be seen as Boris, not Johnsonism, which points to Truss getting the job. Which would be unwise.)
    Once Boris is out there is no candidate who is a clear and obvious 'win'. Rishi may be the nearest chance of one, but his close association with the Boris regime - which looks like losing its wheels - could be fatal. My suggestion of Hunt is not that he would win the next election - I still think that is even money between Tory and centre left alliance - because that isn't true of anyone once it isn't true of Boris.

    It is that of those untainted by association with the government Hunt is the stand out candidate. And it is quite possible such a person will be needed.

    Apart from getting Brexit over the line there is no such thing as Johnsonianism. At the point where we are, as now, maxed out on taxation, public spending, borrowing, further spending promises and debt it is hard to know where Johnson goes next.

  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,991
    edited December 2021
    Nigelb said:

    With online gambling you just don’t get the vibe of the real thing.
    https://twitter.com/BeatinTheBookie/status/1468693497020571648

    Atlantic City is rough!!!!

    To be fair, I was the casino in Bristol for a poker tournament a few years ago and it kicked off like that....the huge dispute, somebody cheating? refusal to pay out on a big win? no, apparently regulars got comp'ed free pizzas, but the management said they wouldn't that night because a big tournament was on.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,134
    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Stocky said:

    kinabalu said:

    Stocky said:

    kinabalu said:

    Stocky said:

    kinabalu said:

    valleyboy said:

    Stocky said:

    Stocky said:

    Stocky said:

    Scott_xP said:

    “I’d strongly urge the government to drop the vote on vaccine passports.”

    Conservative MP, Tobias Ellwood says the government needs to “repair” trust with the British people, if they are going to bring in new COVID guidance.


    Get #COVID19 updates: https://trib.al/oqKZkSu https://twitter.com/SkyNews/status/1469636560987594761/video/1

    Hunting the unvaxxed is the new national sport - hasn't Ellwood heard?
    Ridiculous comment. No one's 'hunting' them - just preventing their stupidity impacting the sensible. A bit like the smoking regs.
    Well, I exaggerate for comic effect.

    There is no doubt that this group are being relegated to second-class citizens. Vax Passports will be popular despite vaccination always being set-up as a personal choice. An example of the tyranny of the majority if you like. It is disingenuous because our route out of this - vaccine discovery - was never predicated on everyone agreeing to take the vaccine (which was never going to happen and we knew it).

    I think someone deciding not to get vaccinated is making a big mistake and will try to persuade them otherwise by looking at all evidence and the pros and cons. But I truly dislike current mass sentiment over this issue, it's a nasty atmosphere.
    Apols for my over-reaction - took you too seriously.

    I'd be interested to know if/where you think my smoking analogy falls down?
    I think it's a pretty good analogy. I disagree that smoking should be banned wholesale but agree that it is acceptable that smoking shouldn't be allowed in a pub for example and, instead, an outside area can accommodate them.

    But if I'm totally honest with you I was opposed to the smoking ban in the first place. Just as when I was young I was opposed to mandatory seat belts. I've come on-board on both these issues given time, though I still don't think that the odd fag in a pub or trip to the shops unbelted should be policed draconianly.
    I am regularly grateful that it is.

    I gave up going to pubs in the 90s because I got fed up of coming home with my clothes, hair, and skin stinking, never mind the (probably low but not zero) passive-smoking risks.
    As I matured(sic) I hated smoking in pubs to the extent I rarely went in one. I was eternally grateful when the smoking ban came in. My wife and I are now very regular pub meal goers.
    Cannot understand how anyone(and I am an ex smoker) can enjoy someone puffing away next to them.
    I'd support a total legal ban on cigarettes. It's the only way to get me off the things and I bet that applies to many other addicts.
    I assume then you are against legalisation of cannabis?
    No, that's fine. All I do is Marlboro Golds.
    So you are for a ban on cigarettes but think that cannabis should be legal?
    Well I'd vote for a ban on cigs through sheer personal interest. But on the principle, I do think the case for smoking being illegal is far stronger than for soft drugs or alcohol. Smoking has absolutely zero benefit or utility to anybody. It's 100% downside. On every level it's a bad thing. There are no redeeming factors. The one and only reason for it being legal is that it's legal now. If it were invented tomorrow it wouldn't have a chance of being allowed.
    Zero utility? You don't think people enjoy smoking?
    I know they don't. It's quelling nicotine withdrawal pangs, hitting the clock on the next lot building up until they must be quelled again. The 'pleasure' is simply relief at the temporary removal of the twitchy anxious gnawing sensation the addiction itself creates. Smokers are rats on a wheel. Ruining their health, stinking up the place, throwing their money away. Many try to convince themselves otherwise for self-esteem purposes. But it's bollocks.
    Nicotine is such a pathetic addiction. Smelly and dirty, and almost zero pleasure, apart from a tiny buzz early in the habit and then just the relief of the craving. Smokers are twats

    Heroin makes much more sense, in terms. Heroin brings an intense sensual and mental pleasure, the relief of all pain and anxieties, a true bliss which has been compared to a prolonged, refined orgasm. Of course the problem is the addiction which will put you on your back in a urinous stairwell within a decade, or in the grave, or in prison, unless you are lucky, but even at the end the pleasure of the hit is greater than that of a stupid fag
    I never dared try harder drugs for just that reason.
    Agree about the idiocy of cigarettes. If I could never have started I’d have taken that - difficult to quit if you started young.
    15.
  • StockyStocky Posts: 10,213

    Stocky said:

    Stocky said:

    633 additional confirmed cases of the #Omicron variant of #COVID19 have been reported across the UK.
    The total number of confirmed COVID-19 Omicron cases in the UK is 1,898.

    Do we know how many of the Omicron cases in UK have resulted in hospitalisation?
    Zero...but it is very early days.
    How do you know that? Is it reported somewhere?
    Yes it was, I don't have the link to hand. But it is meaningless really. It is a tiny sample, it is early days, and 1000s of Omicron cases aren't being labelled as such.

    What we do know is 2-3 weeks time most cases will be Omicron, then it will be pretty clear how many hospitalisations it results in.
    It will become meaningful soon. Of these 1898 cases what percentage go on to need hospital treatment? How does this compare with other variants? It will be important to know this.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,829
    edited December 2021
    https://twitter.com/michaeljmarra/status/1469010213646876676?ref


    Interesting argument from SLAB ...

    Michael Marra MSP
    @michaeljmarra
    "If we are going to get rid of this Tory government us Scots now need to do our bit and back Keir as the next PM.

    Backing the SNP, however well intentioned, only jeopardises Labour support in other nations."

  • Stocky said:

    Stocky said:

    HYUFD said:

    algarkirk said:

    Scott_xP said:

    How Boris became the Tories’ new political contagion | Evening Standard https://www.standard.co.uk/insider/how-boris-johnson-became-tories-new-political-contagion-b971162.html

    Which is why Hunt is in with a shout, as one of the tiny number of possible PMs who is not mad, and unassociated with this government.

    Hunt net favourable -25%, Sunak net favourable +3%.

    If Boris goes Sunak remains the only viable alternative who has a net positive rating still, at least with Yougov
    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/explore/public_figure/Jeremy_Hunt
    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/explore/public_figure/Rishi_Sunak
    And hopefully the Tories will be aware of my £20 bet at 250/1 on Sunak being the next PM
    I'm sure Ladbrokes are!
    I wonder how many people followed the tip and got on at 250/1?
    Out of interest, can you see your bet in Lads unsettled bets history or is it not visible because it was over a year ago?
    Not visible.
  • Stocky said:

    Stocky said:

    Stocky said:

    633 additional confirmed cases of the #Omicron variant of #COVID19 have been reported across the UK.
    The total number of confirmed COVID-19 Omicron cases in the UK is 1,898.

    Do we know how many of the Omicron cases in UK have resulted in hospitalisation?
    Zero...but it is very early days.
    How do you know that? Is it reported somewhere?
    Yes it was, I don't have the link to hand. But it is meaningless really. It is a tiny sample, it is early days, and 1000s of Omicron cases aren't being labelled as such.

    What we do know is 2-3 weeks time most cases will be Omicron, then it will be pretty clear how many hospitalisations it results in.
    It will become meaningful soon. Of these 1898 cases what percentage go on to need hospital treatment? How does this compare with other variants? It will be important to know this.
    The zero figure I saw came from a report when much fewer Omicron cases. Obviously it is doubling every couple of days now. I am sure we will get some new stats shortly.
  • StockyStocky Posts: 10,213
    kinabalu said:

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Stocky said:

    kinabalu said:

    Stocky said:

    kinabalu said:

    Stocky said:

    kinabalu said:

    valleyboy said:

    Stocky said:

    Stocky said:

    Stocky said:

    Scott_xP said:

    “I’d strongly urge the government to drop the vote on vaccine passports.”

    Conservative MP, Tobias Ellwood says the government needs to “repair” trust with the British people, if they are going to bring in new COVID guidance.


    Get #COVID19 updates: https://trib.al/oqKZkSu https://twitter.com/SkyNews/status/1469636560987594761/video/1

    Hunting the unvaxxed is the new national sport - hasn't Ellwood heard?
    Ridiculous comment. No one's 'hunting' them - just preventing their stupidity impacting the sensible. A bit like the smoking regs.
    Well, I exaggerate for comic effect.

    There is no doubt that this group are being relegated to second-class citizens. Vax Passports will be popular despite vaccination always being set-up as a personal choice. An example of the tyranny of the majority if you like. It is disingenuous because our route out of this - vaccine discovery - was never predicated on everyone agreeing to take the vaccine (which was never going to happen and we knew it).

    I think someone deciding not to get vaccinated is making a big mistake and will try to persuade them otherwise by looking at all evidence and the pros and cons. But I truly dislike current mass sentiment over this issue, it's a nasty atmosphere.
    Apols for my over-reaction - took you too seriously.

    I'd be interested to know if/where you think my smoking analogy falls down?
    I think it's a pretty good analogy. I disagree that smoking should be banned wholesale but agree that it is acceptable that smoking shouldn't be allowed in a pub for example and, instead, an outside area can accommodate them.

    But if I'm totally honest with you I was opposed to the smoking ban in the first place. Just as when I was young I was opposed to mandatory seat belts. I've come on-board on both these issues given time, though I still don't think that the odd fag in a pub or trip to the shops unbelted should be policed draconianly.
    I am regularly grateful that it is.

    I gave up going to pubs in the 90s because I got fed up of coming home with my clothes, hair, and skin stinking, never mind the (probably low but not zero) passive-smoking risks.
    As I matured(sic) I hated smoking in pubs to the extent I rarely went in one. I was eternally grateful when the smoking ban came in. My wife and I are now very regular pub meal goers.
    Cannot understand how anyone(and I am an ex smoker) can enjoy someone puffing away next to them.
    I'd support a total legal ban on cigarettes. It's the only way to get me off the things and I bet that applies to many other addicts.
    I assume then you are against legalisation of cannabis?
    No, that's fine. All I do is Marlboro Golds.
    So you are for a ban on cigarettes but think that cannabis should be legal?
    Well I'd vote for a ban on cigs through sheer personal interest. But on the principle, I do think the case for smoking being illegal is far stronger than for soft drugs or alcohol. Smoking has absolutely zero benefit or utility to anybody. It's 100% downside. On every level it's a bad thing. There are no redeeming factors. The one and only reason for it being legal is that it's legal now. If it were invented tomorrow it wouldn't have a chance of being allowed.
    Zero utility? You don't think people enjoy smoking?
    I know they don't. It's quelling nicotine withdrawal pangs, hitting the clock on the next lot building up until they must be quelled again. The 'pleasure' is simply relief at the temporary removal of the twitchy anxious gnawing sensation the addiction itself creates. Smokers are rats on a wheel. Ruining their health, stinking up the place, throwing their money away. Many try to convince themselves otherwise for self-esteem purposes. But it's bollocks.
    Nicotine is such a pathetic addiction. Smelly and dirty, and almost zero pleasure, apart from a tiny buzz early in the habit and then just the relief of the craving. Smokers are twats

    Heroin makes much more sense, in terms. Heroin brings an intense sensual and mental pleasure, the relief of all pain and anxieties, a true bliss which has been compared to a prolonged, refined orgasm. Of course the problem is the addiction which will put you on your back in a urinous stairwell within a decade, or in the grave, or in prison, unless you are lucky, but even at the end the pleasure of the hit is greater than that of a stupid fag
    I never dared try harder drugs for just that reason.
    Agree about the idiocy of cigarettes. If I could never have started I’d have taken that - difficult to quit if you started young.
    15.
    You say there is no utility in it. I bet there was back then - you felt grown up, fashionable and cool, attractive to girls maybe.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,424
    kinabalu said:

    Nigelb said:

    ping said:

    Stocky said:

    kinabalu said:

    Stocky said:

    kinabalu said:

    Stocky said:

    kinabalu said:

    valleyboy said:

    Stocky said:

    Stocky said:

    Stocky said:

    Scott_xP said:

    “I’d strongly urge the government to drop the vote on vaccine passports.”

    Conservative MP, Tobias Ellwood says the government needs to “repair” trust with the British people, if they are going to bring in new COVID guidance.


    Get #COVID19 updates: https://trib.al/oqKZkSu https://twitter.com/SkyNews/status/1469636560987594761/video/1

    Hunting the unvaxxed is the new national sport - hasn't Ellwood heard?
    Ridiculous comment. No one's 'hunting' them - just preventing their stupidity impacting the sensible. A bit like the smoking regs.
    Well, I exaggerate for comic effect.

    There is no doubt that this group are being relegated to second-class citizens. Vax Passports will be popular despite vaccination always being set-up as a personal choice. An example of the tyranny of the majority if you like. It is disingenuous because our route out of this - vaccine discovery - was never predicated on everyone agreeing to take the vaccine (which was never going to happen and we knew it).

    I think someone deciding not to get vaccinated is making a big mistake and will try to persuade them otherwise by looking at all evidence and the pros and cons. But I truly dislike current mass sentiment over this issue, it's a nasty atmosphere.
    Apols for my over-reaction - took you too seriously.

    I'd be interested to know if/where you think my smoking analogy falls down?
    I think it's a pretty good analogy. I disagree that smoking should be banned wholesale but agree that it is acceptable that smoking shouldn't be allowed in a pub for example and, instead, an outside area can accommodate them.

    But if I'm totally honest with you I was opposed to the smoking ban in the first place. Just as when I was young I was opposed to mandatory seat belts. I've come on-board on both these issues given time, though I still don't think that the odd fag in a pub or trip to the shops unbelted should be policed draconianly.
    I am regularly grateful that it is.

    I gave up going to pubs in the 90s because I got fed up of coming home with my clothes, hair, and skin stinking, never mind the (probably low but not zero) passive-smoking risks.
    As I matured(sic) I hated smoking in pubs to the extent I rarely went in one. I was eternally grateful when the smoking ban came in. My wife and I are now very regular pub meal goers.
    Cannot understand how anyone(and I am an ex smoker) can enjoy someone puffing away next to them.
    I'd support a total legal ban on cigarettes. It's the only way to get me off the things and I bet that applies to many other addicts.
    I assume then you are against legalisation of cannabis?
    No, that's fine. All I do is Marlboro Golds.
    So you are for a ban on cigarettes but think that cannabis should be legal?
    Well I'd vote for a ban on cigs through sheer personal interest. But on the principle, I do think the case for smoking being illegal is far stronger than for soft drugs or alcohol. Smoking has absolutely zero benefit or utility to anybody. It's 100% downside. On every level it's a bad thing. There are no redeeming factors. The one and only reason for it being legal is that it's legal now. If it were invented tomorrow it wouldn't have a chance of being allowed.
    Zero utility? You don't think people enjoy smoking?
    We (I’m a smoker) enjoy satiating the craving. It’s not really enjoyment. We look forward to the calm, pleasant sensation after getting our fix.

    It’s a stupid, nasty, dangerous habit. Despite what I said in my previous post, I still wish smoking had been illegal when I was growing up. I almost certainly wouldn’t be addicted now.

    I just think there’s something wrong with the way NZ is going about it.
    Yes, there’s a fair amount of research showing it’s as hard to quit as the most addictive hard drugs, but far less pleasurable.
    I heard somewhere that the 'capture rate' of cigarettes - i.e. the percentage of casual users who go on become hardcore addicts - is actually worse than heroin.
    As a late teens/early 20's I had two strokes of luck, smoking-wise, although I didn't think one of them was at the time. At nineteen or so I had a girl-friend who smoked; one of the activities we enjoyed together. Sadly she went off to Uni and MET SOMEONE ELSE, and in trying to get over her I stopped smoking for about six months. However, when I went off to study and started again an older fellow student advised that if I didn't smoke until after 11am I probably would be able to give it up easily when I wanted to. And indeed, so it proved.
    Nice one and - yes - lucky. I bet you'd have kicked it anyway in middle age but it would've been harder.

    And if you hadn't you probably wouldn't now be OLD King Cole. :smile:
    You could well be right! Mrs C has never smoked, although of course for a short while she had to endure passive smoking.
    Of course by the time I was 25 or so the pressure not to smoke in Health Care environments was becoming high; we'd got well over the nonsense that anti-smoking was somehow pro-Nazi.
  • StockyStocky Posts: 10,213

    Stocky said:

    Stocky said:

    HYUFD said:

    algarkirk said:

    Scott_xP said:

    How Boris became the Tories’ new political contagion | Evening Standard https://www.standard.co.uk/insider/how-boris-johnson-became-tories-new-political-contagion-b971162.html

    Which is why Hunt is in with a shout, as one of the tiny number of possible PMs who is not mad, and unassociated with this government.

    Hunt net favourable -25%, Sunak net favourable +3%.

    If Boris goes Sunak remains the only viable alternative who has a net positive rating still, at least with Yougov
    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/explore/public_figure/Jeremy_Hunt
    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/explore/public_figure/Rishi_Sunak
    And hopefully the Tories will be aware of my £20 bet at 250/1 on Sunak being the next PM
    I'm sure Ladbrokes are!
    I wonder how many people followed the tip and got on at 250/1?
    Out of interest, can you see your bet in Lads unsettled bets history or is it not visible because it was over a year ago?
    Not visible.
    A bit disconcerting? Did you keep a record of date and stake placed?
  • rural_voterrural_voter Posts: 2,038
    Stocky said:

    Stocky said:

    Stocky said:

    633 additional confirmed cases of the #Omicron variant of #COVID19 have been reported across the UK.
    The total number of confirmed COVID-19 Omicron cases in the UK is 1,898.

    Do we know how many of the Omicron cases in UK have resulted in hospitalisation?
    Zero...but it is very early days.
    How do you know that? Is it reported somewhere?
    Yes it was, I don't have the link to hand. But it is meaningless really. It is a tiny sample, it is early days, and 1000s of Omicron cases aren't being labelled as such.

    What we do know is 2-3 weeks time most cases will be Omicron, then it will be pretty clear how many hospitalisations it results in.
    It will become meaningful soon. Of these 1898 cases what percentage go on to need hospital treatment? How does this compare with other variants? It will be important to know this.
    Warnings I read earlier this year about mass use of a 'leaky vaccine' were apparently correct:

    https://www.reuters.com/world/us/most-reported-us-omicron-cases-have-hit-fully-vaccinated-cdc-2021-12-10/
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 13,497
    IanB2 said:

    John Humphreys: “ His problem is that many of his own MPs can’t stomach him. I was often stunned by the contempt leading figures showed for him when we were ‘off mic’ outside the Today studio.”

    “But then again, politics being the brutal game it is, that doesn’t necessarily matter. Most MPs have one single requirement of their leader — that he helps them keep their seat. And he’s been good at that so far. But the latest opinion polls show the ‘Boris effect’ is fading.”

    “This Christmas parties saga is only the latest in a long list of calamities. He gave Dominic Cummings his support after his flagrant breach of the Covid rules last year. It ended only when their personal relationship broke down. He tried, too, to keep Matt Hancock in his job after the then health secretary conducted an affair in his office — again, breaking Covid restrictions.”

    “And now ‘Wallpaper-gate’ is rearing its ugly head again, with more questions being raised about Johnson’s honesty after the Electoral Commission fined the Conservative Party £17,800 for breaking the law over its recording and reporting of who paid for redecorations at the PM’s personal flat. Just look at that trivial, pathetic list. If Johnson fears the verdict of history he’s right to do so.”

    Brilliantly written.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,134
    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Stocky said:

    kinabalu said:

    Stocky said:

    kinabalu said:

    Stocky said:

    kinabalu said:

    valleyboy said:

    Stocky said:

    Stocky said:

    Stocky said:

    Scott_xP said:

    “I’d strongly urge the government to drop the vote on vaccine passports.”

    Conservative MP, Tobias Ellwood says the government needs to “repair” trust with the British people, if they are going to bring in new COVID guidance.


    Get #COVID19 updates: https://trib.al/oqKZkSu https://twitter.com/SkyNews/status/1469636560987594761/video/1

    Hunting the unvaxxed is the new national sport - hasn't Ellwood heard?
    Ridiculous comment. No one's 'hunting' them - just preventing their stupidity impacting the sensible. A bit like the smoking regs.
    Well, I exaggerate for comic effect.

    There is no doubt that this group are being relegated to second-class citizens. Vax Passports will be popular despite vaccination always being set-up as a personal choice. An example of the tyranny of the majority if you like. It is disingenuous because our route out of this - vaccine discovery - was never predicated on everyone agreeing to take the vaccine (which was never going to happen and we knew it).

    I think someone deciding not to get vaccinated is making a big mistake and will try to persuade them otherwise by looking at all evidence and the pros and cons. But I truly dislike current mass sentiment over this issue, it's a nasty atmosphere.
    Apols for my over-reaction - took you too seriously.

    I'd be interested to know if/where you think my smoking analogy falls down?
    I think it's a pretty good analogy. I disagree that smoking should be banned wholesale but agree that it is acceptable that smoking shouldn't be allowed in a pub for example and, instead, an outside area can accommodate them.

    But if I'm totally honest with you I was opposed to the smoking ban in the first place. Just as when I was young I was opposed to mandatory seat belts. I've come on-board on both these issues given time, though I still don't think that the odd fag in a pub or trip to the shops unbelted should be policed draconianly.
    I am regularly grateful that it is.

    I gave up going to pubs in the 90s because I got fed up of coming home with my clothes, hair, and skin stinking, never mind the (probably low but not zero) passive-smoking risks.
    As I matured(sic) I hated smoking in pubs to the extent I rarely went in one. I was eternally grateful when the smoking ban came in. My wife and I are now very regular pub meal goers.
    Cannot understand how anyone(and I am an ex smoker) can enjoy someone puffing away next to them.
    I'd support a total legal ban on cigarettes. It's the only way to get me off the things and I bet that applies to many other addicts.
    I assume then you are against legalisation of cannabis?
    No, that's fine. All I do is Marlboro Golds.
    So you are for a ban on cigarettes but think that cannabis should be legal?
    Well I'd vote for a ban on cigs through sheer personal interest. But on the principle, I do think the case for smoking being illegal is far stronger than for soft drugs or alcohol. Smoking has absolutely zero benefit or utility to anybody. It's 100% downside. On every level it's a bad thing. There are no redeeming factors. The one and only reason for it being legal is that it's legal now. If it were invented tomorrow it wouldn't have a chance of being allowed.
    Zero utility? You don't think people enjoy smoking?
    I know they don't. It's quelling nicotine withdrawal pangs, hitting the clock on the next lot building up until they must be quelled again. The 'pleasure' is simply relief at the temporary removal of the twitchy anxious gnawing sensation the addiction itself creates. Smokers are rats on a wheel. Ruining their health, stinking up the place, throwing their money away. Many try to convince themselves otherwise for self-esteem purposes. But it's bollocks.
    Nicotine is such a pathetic addiction. Smelly and dirty, and almost zero pleasure, apart from a tiny buzz early in the habit and then just the relief of the craving. Smokers are twats

    Heroin makes much more sense, in terms. Heroin brings an intense sensual and mental pleasure, the relief of all pain and anxieties, a true bliss which has been compared to a prolonged, refined orgasm. Of course the problem is the addiction which will put you on your back in a urinous stairwell within a decade, or in the grave, or in prison, unless you are lucky, but even at the end the pleasure of the hit is greater than that of a stupid fag
    Yep. I'll be having some on my deathbed. Win/Win because I'll get the buzz but without the challenge of trying to quit afterwards.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,401
    Leon said:

    dixiedean said:

    dixiedean said:

    Omicron news from Your Man on the Spot.

    Just got the Test and Trace phone call. They are clearly worried.
    Have been told to isolate for 10 days from peak symptoms, not first, as the official guidelines state.
    They were far more bothered about timings, symptoms and about the date and type of vaccine I'd had than contacts.
    He sounded concerned that I had tested negative from first sore throat (Saturday) through to peak (Tuesday), only positive LFT on Wednesday.
    This was similar for the folk I very strongly suspect I caught it from. They were both also largely recovered and 4 and 6 days in by the time they recorded a positive test. Implying that the LFT may not function well for this variant.
    A 4 or 6 or maybe more day window between symptoms and a positive isn't great. Neither for controlling the spread, nor for the economy if everyone with a cold is now a suspected case.
    Have received an immediate follow up saying I am suspected omicron. Which fits with the facts, as I was, if anything, more careful in the week leading up to my booster than before. Really didn't engage in any risky close contact. It was sitting a couple of metres apart chatting for half an hour. In a group of half a dozen rather than exclusively with the infected. And we were side by side, not facing.
    Not great really.

    Dixiedean. Your man on the infected spot.

    'A 4 or 6 or maybe more day window between symptoms and a positive isn't great. Neither for controlling the spread, nor for the economy if everyone with a cold is now a suspected case.'

    Thanks for that. Very concerning, especially in view of our family's Christmas arrangements.
    Yep. Our small cluster of 4 linked cases all had the same experience. Cold symptoms. Runny nose, sore throat. Multiple negative tests ranging from 4 to 6 days. Feel rough at the peak at the peak of it.
    Then test positive as we have turned the corner. There was a span of 8 days between the first of us positive and the last, so we knew to keep testing as we all had similar staggered symptoms.
    Did you get contacted via Test and Trace and/or the NHS app?
    Test and trace. After we received PCR results back.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,070
    edited December 2021
    kinabalu said:

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Stocky said:

    kinabalu said:

    Stocky said:

    kinabalu said:

    Stocky said:

    kinabalu said:

    valleyboy said:

    Stocky said:

    Stocky said:

    Stocky said:

    Scott_xP said:

    “I’d strongly urge the government to drop the vote on vaccine passports.”

    Conservative MP, Tobias Ellwood says the government needs to “repair” trust with the British people, if they are going to bring in new COVID guidance.


    Get #COVID19 updates: https://trib.al/oqKZkSu https://twitter.com/SkyNews/status/1469636560987594761/video/1

    Hunting the unvaxxed is the new national sport - hasn't Ellwood heard?
    Ridiculous comment. No one's 'hunting' them - just preventing their stupidity impacting the sensible. A bit like the smoking regs.
    Well, I exaggerate for comic effect.

    There is no doubt that this group are being relegated to second-class citizens. Vax Passports will be popular despite vaccination always being set-up as a personal choice. An example of the tyranny of the majority if you like. It is disingenuous because our route out of this - vaccine discovery - was never predicated on everyone agreeing to take the vaccine (which was never going to happen and we knew it).

    I think someone deciding not to get vaccinated is making a big mistake and will try to persuade them otherwise by looking at all evidence and the pros and cons. But I truly dislike current mass sentiment over this issue, it's a nasty atmosphere.
    Apols for my over-reaction - took you too seriously.

    I'd be interested to know if/where you think my smoking analogy falls down?
    I think it's a pretty good analogy. I disagree that smoking should be banned wholesale but agree that it is acceptable that smoking shouldn't be allowed in a pub for example and, instead, an outside area can accommodate them.

    But if I'm totally honest with you I was opposed to the smoking ban in the first place. Just as when I was young I was opposed to mandatory seat belts. I've come on-board on both these issues given time, though I still don't think that the odd fag in a pub or trip to the shops unbelted should be policed draconianly.
    I am regularly grateful that it is.

    I gave up going to pubs in the 90s because I got fed up of coming home with my clothes, hair, and skin stinking, never mind the (probably low but not zero) passive-smoking risks.
    As I matured(sic) I hated smoking in pubs to the extent I rarely went in one. I was eternally grateful when the smoking ban came in. My wife and I are now very regular pub meal goers.
    Cannot understand how anyone(and I am an ex smoker) can enjoy someone puffing away next to them.
    I'd support a total legal ban on cigarettes. It's the only way to get me off the things and I bet that applies to many other addicts.
    I assume then you are against legalisation of cannabis?
    No, that's fine. All I do is Marlboro Golds.
    So you are for a ban on cigarettes but think that cannabis should be legal?
    Well I'd vote for a ban on cigs through sheer personal interest. But on the principle, I do think the case for smoking being illegal is far stronger than for soft drugs or alcohol. Smoking has absolutely zero benefit or utility to anybody. It's 100% downside. On every level it's a bad thing. There are no redeeming factors. The one and only reason for it being legal is that it's legal now. If it were invented tomorrow it wouldn't have a chance of being allowed.
    Zero utility? You don't think people enjoy smoking?
    I know they don't. It's quelling nicotine withdrawal pangs, hitting the clock on the next lot building up until they must be quelled again. The 'pleasure' is simply relief at the temporary removal of the twitchy anxious gnawing sensation the addiction itself creates. Smokers are rats on a wheel. Ruining their health, stinking up the place, throwing their money away. Many try to convince themselves otherwise for self-esteem purposes. But it's bollocks.
    Nicotine is such a pathetic addiction. Smelly and dirty, and almost zero pleasure, apart from a tiny buzz early in the habit and then just the relief of the craving. Smokers are twats

    Heroin makes much more sense, in terms. Heroin brings an intense sensual and mental pleasure, the relief of all pain and anxieties, a true bliss which has been compared to a prolonged, refined orgasm. Of course the problem is the addiction which will put you on your back in a urinous stairwell within a decade, or in the grave, or in prison, unless you are lucky, but even at the end the pleasure of the hit is greater than that of a stupid fag
    I never dared try harder drugs for just that reason.
    Agree about the idiocy of cigarettes. If I could never have started I’d have taken that - difficult to quit if you started young.
    15.
    Yes, I was similar.
    Not too late to quit, though. The health benefits are massive even if you’ve been smoking for many decades.

    Reimagining yourself as a non smoker is a lot of the battle.
This discussion has been closed.