Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. Sign in or register to get started.

North Shropshire: Betting with a clean slate – politicalbetting.com

2456710

Comments

  • Pagan2 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    We know the unvaxxed basically take up a huge proportion of critical care facilities. They also stay longer, next to age - and noone can change their age it's the single biggest factor in healthcare clogging. I think we're moving to a point where the choices are basically

    i) Healthcare system collapses.
    ii) Mandatory vaccination.
    iii) More lockdowns for all.

    4) more nhs staff
    1,3,and 4 means everyone else having to pay for their decisions how about no
    We have to pay for lots of decisions. Obesity, alcohol, drugs, sports, bosses stressing out their workers. This line of thinking is a ridiculous slippery slope.
    Money is raised by taxation on many of them.

    And now Austria is raising money by taxing anti-vaxxers.

    Other countries will follow.
    So you make compliance mandatory for the poor and optional for the rich.

    It’s disgusting.
    A 'covid tax' can be applied in any way you want and at any rate.

    I'm quite happy to charge the rich more whereas you'd not charge them anything.

    You seem determined to pander to anti-vaxxers.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,072
    Does anyone know what percentage of current UK covid admissions are vaxxed? Can’t seem to find the stats
  • FarooqFarooq Posts: 10,775

    Farooq said:

    There's a contrast between the tolerance of anti-vaxxers among some leftists in the UK compared to the support for compulsory vaccination among Democrats in the USA.

    Strange, strange post.
    I see you cannot make a proper reply.

    Perhaps the difference I pointed out upsets you ?

    Here's another difference between the UK and USA on vaccination:

    In the UK the non-vaccinated are predominantly on the left, in the USA the non-vaccinated are predominantly on the right.

    Which I'll suggest highlights the difference between the UK and USA voters of the right.
    Ok, here's a proper reply.

    Firstly, there's people of all persuasions on here right now talking about this, and it seems to divide people on the right and left.
    Secondly, Democrat voters are more than half the voters of the US, so definitionally not all of them are "leftists". Unless "leftist" means something mighty peculiar in your world.

    Intriguing claim in your second post there, about non-vaccinated in the UK being "predominantly on the left". Any source for that claim, I haven't heard it before.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    edited December 2021

    Does anyone know what percentage of current UK covid admissions are vaxxed? Can’t seem to find the stats

    I believe ~70% of cases and ~90% of hospitalisations are unvaxxed.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/doctors-and-nurses-vent-anger-as-unvaccinated-covid-cases-delay-vital-operations-z3zchvv9l
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,842

    Does anyone know what percentage of current UK covid admissions are vaxxed? Can’t seem to find the stats

    Slightly older data - but

    What do the data on hospital admissions show?
    An analysis of UK data from the National Immunisation Management Service (NIMS) and the Coronavirus Clinical Information Network (CO-CIN),1 endorsed by the UK Scientific and Advisory Group for Emergencies (SAGE),2 shows that of 40 000 patients with covid-19 who were admitted to hospital between December 2020 and July 2021 a total of 33 496 (84%) had not been vaccinated. It found that 5198 (13%) of these patients had received their first vaccine and 1274 (3%) their second. A total of 611 patients with previous covid-19 (reinfection) were not included in the analysis.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 8,631
    Farooq said:

    Farooq said:

    There's a contrast between the tolerance of anti-vaxxers among some leftists in the UK compared to the support for compulsory vaccination among Democrats in the USA.

    Strange, strange post.
    I see you cannot make a proper reply.

    Perhaps the difference I pointed out upsets you ?

    Here's another difference between the UK and USA on vaccination:

    In the UK the non-vaccinated are predominantly on the left, in the USA the non-vaccinated are predominantly on the right.

    Which I'll suggest highlights the difference between the UK and USA voters of the right.
    Ok, here's a proper reply.

    Firstly, there's people of all persuasions on here right now talking about this, and it seems to divide people on the right and left.
    Secondly, Democrat voters are more than half the voters of the US, so definitionally not all of them are "leftists". Unless "leftist" means something mighty peculiar in your world.

    Intriguing claim in your second post there, about non-vaccinated in the UK being "predominantly on the left". Any source for that claim, I haven't heard it before.
    It is fairly accepted that anti vax sentiment is prevalent in black and asian communities and amongst green voters which predominantly vote labour or other parties of the left. Though not aware of any polls or stats so purely anecdotal
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,842
    edited December 2021

    Does anyone know what percentage of current UK covid admissions are vaxxed? Can’t seem to find the stats

    I believe ~70% of cases and ~90% of hospitalisations are unvaxxed.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/doctors-and-nurses-vent-anger-as-unvaccinated-covid-cases-delay-vital-operations-z3zchvv9l
    Absolubtely mad when you consider the denominator effect. Even if vaxxed/unvaxxed hit a case equilibrium the hospitalisation odds are just so so much higher in the unvaxxed.
  • Men vs boys again in the cricket.
  • Pulpstar said:

    Does anyone know what percentage of current UK covid admissions are vaxxed? Can’t seem to find the stats

    I believe ~70% of cases and ~90% of hospitalisations are unvaxxed.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/doctors-and-nurses-vent-anger-as-unvaccinated-covid-cases-delay-vital-operations-z3zchvv9l
    Absolubtely mad when you consider the denominator effect.
    I guess the concern has to be if 2 jabs has become the new 1 jab, that we might well see a bigger percentage now among "vaxxed" people.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,837
    edited December 2021
    Pagan2 said:

    Farooq said:

    Farooq said:

    There's a contrast between the tolerance of anti-vaxxers among some leftists in the UK compared to the support for compulsory vaccination among Democrats in the USA.

    Strange, strange post.
    I see you cannot make a proper reply.

    Perhaps the difference I pointed out upsets you ?

    Here's another difference between the UK and USA on vaccination:

    In the UK the non-vaccinated are predominantly on the left, in the USA the non-vaccinated are predominantly on the right.

    Which I'll suggest highlights the difference between the UK and USA voters of the right.
    Ok, here's a proper reply.

    Firstly, there's people of all persuasions on here right now talking about this, and it seems to divide people on the right and left.
    Secondly, Democrat voters are more than half the voters of the US, so definitionally not all of them are "leftists". Unless "leftist" means something mighty peculiar in your world.

    Intriguing claim in your second post there, about non-vaccinated in the UK being "predominantly on the left". Any source for that claim, I haven't heard it before.
    It is fairly accepted that anti vax sentiment is prevalent in black and asian communities and amongst green voters which predominantly vote labour or other parties of the left. Though not aware of any polls or stats so purely anecdotal
    And across prominent loudmouth right wing media figures and their fellow travellers too. Purely anecdotally of course. And fairly accepted too.
  • FarooqFarooq Posts: 10,775

    Does anyone know what percentage of current UK covid admissions are vaxxed? Can’t seem to find the stats

    I believe ~70% of cases and ~90% of hospitalisations are unvaxxed.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/doctors-and-nurses-vent-anger-as-unvaccinated-covid-cases-delay-vital-operations-z3zchvv9l

    Does anyone know what percentage of current UK covid admissions are vaxxed? Can’t seem to find the stats

    I believe ~70% of cases and ~90% of hospitalisations are unvaxxed.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/doctors-and-nurses-vent-anger-as-unvaccinated-covid-cases-delay-vital-operations-z3zchvv9l
    70% of cases? That doesn't sounds right to me. Not with such a large proportion vaccinated.
    Can't read the article, paywalled.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 5,781
    rcs1000 said:

    Eabhal said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    pigeon said:

    FPT it’s a very slippery slope when you start judging people for needing the NHS. When does it end?

    @Leon guzzles booze like nobody’s business. That’s a positive act that is likely to be an NHS resource drain in the future. Driving a car at 120mph is also a positive act. Refusing a vaccine is an omission.

    It feels profoundly wrong to force people to put something into their own body.

    I say this as someone who has had an operation cancelled 3 times already due to NHS pressures. 4th attempt is currently scheduled for Monday.

    Except you're talking about compulsion in a situation of dire national emergency as if it were a totally novel and unprecedented moral outrage. It isn't.

    Not so very long ago, millions of our forebears were conscripted to fight in wars. When society was faced with an existential threat, it demanded, amongst other things, that young people fight in battles and get blown up, shot through the head or drown in icy cold seas. And if you were called up then, unless you had a very good excuse (e.g. a reserved occupation or being medically unfit) then you bloody well went. The small minority of hardcore pacifists who refused to do service of any kind were complete social pariahs who ended up imprisoned.

    Fast forward a few decades and now it's considered unforgivable to ask people to have a scratch on the arm every three or six months so as to try and avoid the entire bloody country ending up under house arrest for months on end, with the education of the nation's children wrecked, otherwise viable businesses driven to the wall en masse, and the state hurtling every closer to the cliff edge of bankruptcy into the bargain.

    And if the cost of your repeated cancelled operations was that you ended up dead, I doubt your surviving relatives would feel so sanguine about this problem.
    I still profoundly disagree. I think people are panicking and trying to find someone, anyone, to ‘blame’ and in doing so are retreating to a level of authoritarianism to impose this panic on others.

    The country does not need to be under house arrest. We’re very highly vaccinated. Thats good. The odd person who isn’t isnt going to make a difference.

    But of course keep blaming others
    You're just too fucking stupid to understand how vaccination works. It only works if a certain high percentage agree to do it. That's it. Otherwise everyone suffers and the disease wins.

    Your miserable IQ is too low to grasp this central fact
    Rubbish. I’m vaccinated therefore my immune system is better placed to fight off covid. I couldn’t give two hoots if other people are or not. Not my problem not my business.
    Oh god. Oh my fucking good god
    Go to bed man
    I always guessed you didn't have much of a brain. i never guessed you actually don't possess a BRAIN-STEM
    I think you're both wrong. The new variant is so transmissable the vaccines won't stop the spread (AIUI), even if the DAs of the world get it. So the traditional, herd immunity argument is out - this is like the common cold now.

    However, if the DAs start filling up the hospitals then operations like the one GG is getting (and me too, next week) will be cancelled as the NHS collapses under the pressure.
    I don't think that's true at all.

    Pfizer showed that the triple vaxxed had exactly the same immune response to Omicron that the double vaxxed had to Alpha. Now, this was a small scale antibody test, but it's highly suggestive of the fact that those who have had all three jabs are going to be fine.
    But still spread it?
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    edited December 2021
    Farooq said:

    Does anyone know what percentage of current UK covid admissions are vaxxed? Can’t seem to find the stats

    I believe ~70% of cases and ~90% of hospitalisations are unvaxxed.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/doctors-and-nurses-vent-anger-as-unvaccinated-covid-cases-delay-vital-operations-z3zchvv9l

    Does anyone know what percentage of current UK covid admissions are vaxxed? Can’t seem to find the stats

    I believe ~70% of cases and ~90% of hospitalisations are unvaxxed.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/doctors-and-nurses-vent-anger-as-unvaccinated-covid-cases-delay-vital-operations-z3zchvv9l
    70% of cases? That doesn't sounds right to me. Not with such a large proportion vaccinated.
    Can't read the article, paywalled.
    70% of cases comes from Tim Spector data.
  • FarooqFarooq Posts: 10,775
    Pagan2 said:

    Farooq said:

    Farooq said:

    There's a contrast between the tolerance of anti-vaxxers among some leftists in the UK compared to the support for compulsory vaccination among Democrats in the USA.

    Strange, strange post.
    I see you cannot make a proper reply.

    Perhaps the difference I pointed out upsets you ?

    Here's another difference between the UK and USA on vaccination:

    In the UK the non-vaccinated are predominantly on the left, in the USA the non-vaccinated are predominantly on the right.

    Which I'll suggest highlights the difference between the UK and USA voters of the right.
    Ok, here's a proper reply.

    Firstly, there's people of all persuasions on here right now talking about this, and it seems to divide people on the right and left.
    Secondly, Democrat voters are more than half the voters of the US, so definitionally not all of them are "leftists". Unless "leftist" means something mighty peculiar in your world.

    Intriguing claim in your second post there, about non-vaccinated in the UK being "predominantly on the left". Any source for that claim, I haven't heard it before.
    It is fairly accepted that anti vax sentiment is prevalent in black and asian communities and amongst green voters which predominantly vote labour or other parties of the left. Though not aware of any polls or stats so purely anecdotal
    Forgive me when I say I'm wholly unconvinced by that. But I honestly haven't thought about it before today so there may be something in it for all I know. Just my gut feeling says it's wrong.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    edited December 2021
    Anti-vaxxering is a strange coalition of across the political spectrum. Definitely strong in far right and far left, and then soft left non-white communities.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 8,631
    dixiedean said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Farooq said:

    Farooq said:

    There's a contrast between the tolerance of anti-vaxxers among some leftists in the UK compared to the support for compulsory vaccination among Democrats in the USA.

    Strange, strange post.
    I see you cannot make a proper reply.

    Perhaps the difference I pointed out upsets you ?

    Here's another difference between the UK and USA on vaccination:

    In the UK the non-vaccinated are predominantly on the left, in the USA the non-vaccinated are predominantly on the right.

    Which I'll suggest highlights the difference between the UK and USA voters of the right.
    Ok, here's a proper reply.

    Firstly, there's people of all persuasions on here right now talking about this, and it seems to divide people on the right and left.
    Secondly, Democrat voters are more than half the voters of the US, so definitionally not all of them are "leftists". Unless "leftist" means something mighty peculiar in your world.

    Intriguing claim in your second post there, about non-vaccinated in the UK being "predominantly on the left". Any source for that claim, I haven't heard it before.
    It is fairly accepted that anti vax sentiment is prevalent in black and asian communities and amongst green voters which predominantly vote labour or other parties of the left. Though not aware of any polls or stats so purely anecdotal
    And across prominent loudmouth right wing media figures and their fellow travellers too. Purely anecdotally of course. And fairly accepted too.
    Didn't say no right wing people and they are just as wrong. However last figures I saw indicated some communities had as low as 60 to 70% vax rate among black and asian. A few right wing twitterers with a few hundred followers hardly count and are offset by all the left wing twitterers of the same mind
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 5,781

    Eabhal said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    We know the unvaxxed basically take up a huge proportion of critical care facilities. They also stay longer, next to age - and noone can change their age it's the single biggest factor in healthcare clogging. I think we're moving to a point where the choices are basically

    i) Healthcare system collapses.
    ii) Mandatory vaccination.
    iii) More lockdowns for all.

    4) more nhs staff
    1,3,and 4 means everyone else having to pay for their decisions how about no
    We have to pay for lots of decisions. Obesity, alcohol, drugs, sports, bosses stressing out their workers. This line of thinking is a ridiculous slippery slope.
    And we tax smokers on that basis. We can't really tax food effectively, so a £100 tax rebate for BMI less than 30?

    Alcohol is harder still. Scotland tried it.
    Its a myth that we don't tax food.

    There's no tax on fresh food that you cook and prepare at home.

    Takeaways, deliveries, restaurant food etc is almost always taxed at 20% VAT as are most treats like chocolate.

    Something tells me that in general fatties are paying a lot more VAT on their food because of this.
    Well, exactly. Hence "effectively".

    The taxes we have in place clearly haven't had any impact on obesity levels.

    Need a different approach.
  • pigeonpigeon Posts: 4,088
    edited December 2021

    pigeon said:

    pigeon said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    FPT it’s a very slippery slope when you start judging people for needing the NHS. When does it end?

    @Leon guzzles booze like nobody’s business. That’s a positive act that is likely to be an NHS resource drain in the future. Driving a car at 120mph is also a positive act. Refusing a vaccine is an omission.

    It feels profoundly wrong to force people to put something into their own body.

    I say this as someone who has had an operation cancelled 3 times already due to NHS pressures. 4th attempt is currently scheduled for Monday.

    Unlike obesity, smoking, drinking, vaccination is very very simple and easy. Might be worth holding off till the polyvalent vaccines come out before mandating anything if you're going down that route though.
    And you don't have to mandate it. Having a bank account isn't mandated but life can be inconvenient without one.
    Its not simple or easy for @Dura_Ace though is it Its not simple or easy for people who have been brainwashed into believing conspiracy theories. The answer is education not authoritarianism.
    No it is easy for Dura_Ace because he is a total hypocrite....he hides behind tested on animals so no, but will quite happily repaint his cars when needed I am sure despite car paint being tested on animals
    Regardless the answer is always education not authoritarianism.
    1. How many years are we expected to suffer whilst the efforts to talk these people down continue?
    2. What if they don't work?
    What if what don’t work?

    At the end of the day we’re going to have to deal with covid forever now. Its time to accept that and get on with it.
    Oh for God's sake, the second question refers to the first.

    No matter. Yes, we are going to have to deal with Covid forever, but no, the Government isn't going to do that by following the anarcho-libertarian path of letting everybody get it at once and letting the sick perish so that the survivors can then get on with life as it was before. At least, not unless it's forced to because the population is in open revolt or the country is bankrupt, and we're still some way from those scenarios.

    If the hospitals are in a bad enough way, or if they think there's enough evidence to suggest that things are heading in that direction, then ministers will keep piling on the restrictions to avert disaster. The best weapon in our arsenal in the battle to avoid those restrictions is the vaccines. The more people refuse the vaccines, the more Covid patients there are, and the more likely it becomes that the restrictions keep getting worse and worse.

    After nearly two years of this unending disaster these ought not to be difficult concepts to grasp.
    Lol. Its now anarcho-libertarian to believe vaccines shouldn't be forced? Christ.
    You utter the words "we're going to have to deal with covid forever" as if this magically makes all of the problems go away. What is your alternative means of dealing with a vast pool of completely unprotected plague bearers whose falling down sick left, right and centre threatens the rest of us with endless cycles of restrictions so that they don't cause the hospitals to fall over? Some trite bullshit about education over authoritarianism, as if talking to the heel diggers slowly and patiently about their "concerns" (which are more often than not rooted in madcap yet passionately believed in rubbish about Bill Gates' microchips and all the rest of that kind of Facebook conspiracy nonsense) is going to coax them out of the rabbit holes they've gone down in any reasonable period of time, if it all.

    You've no answers at all, just an apparent willingness to let them all get the disease so that this nightmare can be over and done with. The flaw with that cunning plan, as we always keep coming back to, is that the Government won't deny the refusers medical care, so if they flood in (or threaten to do so) in large enough numbers, the lockdown levers start being pulled in an effort to choke off the flow.

    The point of compulsion is to try to break the cycle of lockdowns. Not to be wantonly cruel to the anti-vaxxers or to violate their human rights, simply to prevent their choices from immiserating the rest of us. If the blessed hospitals weren't in danger of falling over because of them then none of the rest of us would need to care if they got sick and kicked the bucket. Unfortunately, this is not the situation in which we find ourselves.
  • Farooq said:

    Farooq said:

    There's a contrast between the tolerance of anti-vaxxers among some leftists in the UK compared to the support for compulsory vaccination among Democrats in the USA.

    Strange, strange post.
    I see you cannot make a proper reply.

    Perhaps the difference I pointed out upsets you ?

    Here's another difference between the UK and USA on vaccination:

    In the UK the non-vaccinated are predominantly on the left, in the USA the non-vaccinated are predominantly on the right.

    Which I'll suggest highlights the difference between the UK and USA voters of the right.
    Ok, here's a proper reply.

    Firstly, there's people of all persuasions on here right now talking about this, and it seems to divide people on the right and left.
    Secondly, Democrat voters are more than half the voters of the US, so definitionally not all of them are "leftists". Unless "leftist" means something mighty peculiar in your world.

    Intriguing claim in your second post there, about non-vaccinated in the UK being "predominantly on the left". Any source for that claim, I haven't heard it before.
    Take a look at the data.

    The older people are the more likely they are to be vaccinated.

    Now how does voting change among the age bands ?

    You might also compare vaccination rates by ethnicity or deprivation.

    As to the US Democrats I don't think its a stretch to describe them as the leftist party in that country just as the Republicans are the rightest party (though that bit might suggest they are the correct party).

    And in the USA those politicians making vaccinations mandatory are Democrats.

    Whereas in the UK the plan to make vaccination compulsory among NHS workers has been opposed by the Labour party.

    My initial comment is thus proved.
  • Pagan2 said:

    Farooq said:

    Farooq said:

    There's a contrast between the tolerance of anti-vaxxers among some leftists in the UK compared to the support for compulsory vaccination among Democrats in the USA.

    Strange, strange post.
    I see you cannot make a proper reply.

    Perhaps the difference I pointed out upsets you ?

    Here's another difference between the UK and USA on vaccination:

    In the UK the non-vaccinated are predominantly on the left, in the USA the non-vaccinated are predominantly on the right.

    Which I'll suggest highlights the difference between the UK and USA voters of the right.
    Ok, here's a proper reply.

    Firstly, there's people of all persuasions on here right now talking about this, and it seems to divide people on the right and left.
    Secondly, Democrat voters are more than half the voters of the US, so definitionally not all of them are "leftists". Unless "leftist" means something mighty peculiar in your world.

    Intriguing claim in your second post there, about non-vaccinated in the UK being "predominantly on the left". Any source for that claim, I haven't heard it before.
    It is fairly accepted that anti vax sentiment is prevalent in black and asian communities and amongst green voters which predominantly vote labour or other parties of the left. Though not aware of any polls or stats so purely anecdotal
    Makes sense that there is anti- or at least non-vax skew for these groups.

    On the other hand, might not a similar skew among young or at least youngish right-leaning (if not thinking) libertarians skew the balance toward the other side of the ideological line, and then some?
  • 7 down. 🤦‍♂️
  • 7 down. 🤦‍♂️

    Good job England bat deep....
  • Farooq said:

    Does anyone know what percentage of current UK covid admissions are vaxxed? Can’t seem to find the stats

    I believe ~70% of cases and ~90% of hospitalisations are unvaxxed.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/doctors-and-nurses-vent-anger-as-unvaccinated-covid-cases-delay-vital-operations-z3zchvv9l

    Does anyone know what percentage of current UK covid admissions are vaxxed? Can’t seem to find the stats

    I believe ~70% of cases and ~90% of hospitalisations are unvaxxed.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/doctors-and-nurses-vent-anger-as-unvaccinated-covid-cases-delay-vital-operations-z3zchvv9l
    70% of cases? That doesn't sounds right to me. Not with such a large proportion vaccinated.
    Can't read the article, paywalled.
    Sadly these numbers are far out of date. Fullfact picked up on them after they were used in the Economist last month and then a few days ago on TV. It was the case for a while in the middle of the summer that 90% of those in hospital were unvaccinated but that proportion dropped steadily through the last summer and autumn as Delta became more prevalent and as more people got double jabbed. Currently around 36% of hospital admissions are unvaccinated.

    https://fullfact.org/health/dr-hilary-lorraine-kelly-90-percent/
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 8,631

    Pagan2 said:

    Farooq said:

    Farooq said:

    There's a contrast between the tolerance of anti-vaxxers among some leftists in the UK compared to the support for compulsory vaccination among Democrats in the USA.

    Strange, strange post.
    I see you cannot make a proper reply.

    Perhaps the difference I pointed out upsets you ?

    Here's another difference between the UK and USA on vaccination:

    In the UK the non-vaccinated are predominantly on the left, in the USA the non-vaccinated are predominantly on the right.

    Which I'll suggest highlights the difference between the UK and USA voters of the right.
    Ok, here's a proper reply.

    Firstly, there's people of all persuasions on here right now talking about this, and it seems to divide people on the right and left.
    Secondly, Democrat voters are more than half the voters of the US, so definitionally not all of them are "leftists". Unless "leftist" means something mighty peculiar in your world.

    Intriguing claim in your second post there, about non-vaccinated in the UK being "predominantly on the left". Any source for that claim, I haven't heard it before.
    It is fairly accepted that anti vax sentiment is prevalent in black and asian communities and amongst green voters which predominantly vote labour or other parties of the left. Though not aware of any polls or stats so purely anecdotal
    Makes sense that there is anti- or at least non-vax skew for these groups.

    On the other hand, might not a similar skew among young or at least youngish right-leaning (if not thinking) libertarians skew the balance toward the other side of the ideological line, and then some?
    The young demographic I believe skew very much leftward in outlook
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,072
    pigeon said:

    pigeon said:

    pigeon said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    FPT it’s a very slippery slope when you start judging people for needing the NHS. When does it end?

    @Leon guzzles booze like nobody’s business. That’s a positive act that is likely to be an NHS resource drain in the future. Driving a car at 120mph is also a positive act. Refusing a vaccine is an omission.

    It feels profoundly wrong to force people to put something into their own body.

    I say this as someone who has had an operation cancelled 3 times already due to NHS pressures. 4th attempt is currently scheduled for Monday.

    Unlike obesity, smoking, drinking, vaccination is very very simple and easy. Might be worth holding off till the polyvalent vaccines come out before mandating anything if you're going down that route though.
    And you don't have to mandate it. Having a bank account isn't mandated but life can be inconvenient without one.
    Its not simple or easy for @Dura_Ace though is it Its not simple or easy for people who have been brainwashed into believing conspiracy theories. The answer is education not authoritarianism.
    No it is easy for Dura_Ace because he is a total hypocrite....he hides behind tested on animals so no, but will quite happily repaint his cars when needed I am sure despite car paint being tested on animals
    Regardless the answer is always education not authoritarianism.
    1. How many years are we expected to suffer whilst the efforts to talk these people down continue?
    2. What if they don't work?
    What if what don’t work?

    At the end of the day we’re going to have to deal with covid forever now. Its time to accept that and get on with it.
    Oh for God's sake, the second question refers to the first.

    No matter. Yes, we are going to have to deal with Covid forever, but no, the Government isn't going to do that by following the anarcho-libertarian path of letting everybody get it at once and letting the sick perish so that the survivors can then get on with life as it was before. At least, not unless it's forced to because the population is in open revolt or the country is bankrupt, and we're still some way from those scenarios.

    If the hospitals are in a bad enough way, or if they think there's enough evidence to suggest that things are heading in that direction, then ministers will keep piling on the restrictions to avert disaster. The best weapon in our arsenal in the battle to avoid those restrictions is the vaccines. The more people refuse the vaccines, the more Covid patients there are, and the more likely it becomes that the restrictions keep getting worse and worse.

    After nearly two years of this unending disaster these ought not to be difficult concepts to grasp.
    Lol. Its now anarcho-libertarian to believe vaccines shouldn't be forced? Christ.
    You utter the words "we're going to have to deal with covid forever" as if this magically makes all of the problems go away. What is your alternative means of dealing with a vast pool of completely unprotected plague bearers whose falling down sick left, right and centre threatens the rest of us with endless cycles of restrictions so that they don't cause the hospitals to fall over? Some trite bullshit about education over authoritarianism, as if talking to the heel diggers slowly and patiently about their "concerns" (which are more often than not rooted in madcap yet passionately believed in rubbish about Bill Gates' microchips and all the rest of that kind of Facebook conspiracy nonsense) is going to coax them out of the rabbit holes they've gone down in any reasonable period of time, if it all.

    You've no answers at all, just an apparent willingness to let them all get the disease so that this nightmare can be over and done with. The flaw with that cunning plan, as we always keep coming back to, is that the Government won't deny the refusers medical care, so if they flood in (or threaten to do so) in large enough numbers, the lockdown levers start being pulled in an effort to choke off the flow.

    The point of compulsion is to try to break the cycle of lockdowns. Not to be wantonly cruel to the anti-vaxxers or to violate their human rights, simply to prevent their choices from immiserating the rest of us. If the blessed hospitals weren't in danger of falling over because of them then none of the rest of us would need to care if they got sick and kicked the bucket. Unfortunately, this is not the situation in which we find ourselves.
    We have a highly vaccinated population. Those who are unvaxxed are going to get covid soon and then if they survive they will then have a level of protection for when they next get it, and so on. There isn't a never-ending supply of unvaccinated britons.
  • Farooq said:

    Does anyone know what percentage of current UK covid admissions are vaxxed? Can’t seem to find the stats

    I believe ~70% of cases and ~90% of hospitalisations are unvaxxed.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/doctors-and-nurses-vent-anger-as-unvaccinated-covid-cases-delay-vital-operations-z3zchvv9l

    Does anyone know what percentage of current UK covid admissions are vaxxed? Can’t seem to find the stats

    I believe ~70% of cases and ~90% of hospitalisations are unvaxxed.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/doctors-and-nurses-vent-anger-as-unvaccinated-covid-cases-delay-vital-operations-z3zchvv9l
    70% of cases? That doesn't sounds right to me. Not with such a large proportion vaccinated.
    Can't read the article, paywalled.
    Sadly these numbers are far out of date. Fullfact picked up on them after they were used in the Economist last month and then a few days ago on TV. It was the case for a while in the middle of the summer that 90% of those in hospital were unvaccinated but that proportion dropped steadily through the last summer and autumn as Delta became more prevalent and as more people got double jabbed. Currently around 36% of hospital admissions are unvaccinated.

    https://fullfact.org/health/dr-hilary-lorraine-kelly-90-percent/
    Which considering how few of the population (especially at risk population) are unvaccinated goes to show the importance of the vaccines.
  • US anti-vaxxers is even stranger coalition....as they include the hippy dippy yoga lot.
  • Does anyone know what percentage of current UK covid admissions are vaxxed? Can’t seem to find the stats

    36% unvaxxed, 64% vaxxed. But far more unvaxxed in ICUs.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,771
    Eabhal said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Eabhal said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    pigeon said:

    FPT it’s a very slippery slope when you start judging people for needing the NHS. When does it end?

    @Leon guzzles booze like nobody’s business. That’s a positive act that is likely to be an NHS resource drain in the future. Driving a car at 120mph is also a positive act. Refusing a vaccine is an omission.

    It feels profoundly wrong to force people to put something into their own body.

    I say this as someone who has had an operation cancelled 3 times already due to NHS pressures. 4th attempt is currently scheduled for Monday.

    Except you're talking about compulsion in a situation of dire national emergency as if it were a totally novel and unprecedented moral outrage. It isn't.

    Not so very long ago, millions of our forebears were conscripted to fight in wars. When society was faced with an existential threat, it demanded, amongst other things, that young people fight in battles and get blown up, shot through the head or drown in icy cold seas. And if you were called up then, unless you had a very good excuse (e.g. a reserved occupation or being medically unfit) then you bloody well went. The small minority of hardcore pacifists who refused to do service of any kind were complete social pariahs who ended up imprisoned.

    Fast forward a few decades and now it's considered unforgivable to ask people to have a scratch on the arm every three or six months so as to try and avoid the entire bloody country ending up under house arrest for months on end, with the education of the nation's children wrecked, otherwise viable businesses driven to the wall en masse, and the state hurtling every closer to the cliff edge of bankruptcy into the bargain.

    And if the cost of your repeated cancelled operations was that you ended up dead, I doubt your surviving relatives would feel so sanguine about this problem.
    I still profoundly disagree. I think people are panicking and trying to find someone, anyone, to ‘blame’ and in doing so are retreating to a level of authoritarianism to impose this panic on others.

    The country does not need to be under house arrest. We’re very highly vaccinated. Thats good. The odd person who isn’t isnt going to make a difference.

    But of course keep blaming others
    You're just too fucking stupid to understand how vaccination works. It only works if a certain high percentage agree to do it. That's it. Otherwise everyone suffers and the disease wins.

    Your miserable IQ is too low to grasp this central fact
    Rubbish. I’m vaccinated therefore my immune system is better placed to fight off covid. I couldn’t give two hoots if other people are or not. Not my problem not my business.
    Oh god. Oh my fucking good god
    Go to bed man
    I always guessed you didn't have much of a brain. i never guessed you actually don't possess a BRAIN-STEM
    I think you're both wrong. The new variant is so transmissable the vaccines won't stop the spread (AIUI), even if the DAs of the world get it. So the traditional, herd immunity argument is out - this is like the common cold now.

    However, if the DAs start filling up the hospitals then operations like the one GG is getting (and me too, next week) will be cancelled as the NHS collapses under the pressure.
    I don't think that's true at all.

    Pfizer showed that the triple vaxxed had exactly the same immune response to Omicron that the double vaxxed had to Alpha. Now, this was a small scale antibody test, but it's highly suggestive of the fact that those who have had all three jabs are going to be fine.
    But still spread it?
    Well, if you have it to any extent, you are going to be shedding viral material.

    *But*, all the evidence is that the less severe the infection, the less viral shedding there is. (You cough and sneeze when you're sick because that's the way the virus spreads itself, by making you expel it at high velocities.)
  • FarooqFarooq Posts: 10,775
    Pagan2 said:

    dixiedean said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Farooq said:

    Farooq said:

    There's a contrast between the tolerance of anti-vaxxers among some leftists in the UK compared to the support for compulsory vaccination among Democrats in the USA.

    Strange, strange post.
    I see you cannot make a proper reply.

    Perhaps the difference I pointed out upsets you ?

    Here's another difference between the UK and USA on vaccination:

    In the UK the non-vaccinated are predominantly on the left, in the USA the non-vaccinated are predominantly on the right.

    Which I'll suggest highlights the difference between the UK and USA voters of the right.
    Ok, here's a proper reply.

    Firstly, there's people of all persuasions on here right now talking about this, and it seems to divide people on the right and left.
    Secondly, Democrat voters are more than half the voters of the US, so definitionally not all of them are "leftists". Unless "leftist" means something mighty peculiar in your world.

    Intriguing claim in your second post there, about non-vaccinated in the UK being "predominantly on the left". Any source for that claim, I haven't heard it before.
    It is fairly accepted that anti vax sentiment is prevalent in black and asian communities and amongst green voters which predominantly vote labour or other parties of the left. Though not aware of any polls or stats so purely anecdotal
    And across prominent loudmouth right wing media figures and their fellow travellers too. Purely anecdotally of course. And fairly accepted too.
    Didn't say no right wing people and they are just as wrong. However last figures I saw indicated some communities had as low as 60 to 70% vax rate among black and asian. A few right wing twitterers with a few hundred followers hardly count and are offset by all the left wing twitterers of the same mind
    I think you should probably leave Twitter out of this completely, it's a dead-end for trying to work out the truth of anything.

    The thing you need to watch out for here is the ecological fallacy. It might be that anti-vax is more represented in ethnic minorities in this country and that left wing votes are also similarly overrepresented in that group. It does not follow that you can use the one as a proxy for the other.
    You need much better evidence for your claim if you want the have confidence in it. I have no confidence either way, so I'm not saying you're wrong.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    edited December 2021

    Farooq said:

    Does anyone know what percentage of current UK covid admissions are vaxxed? Can’t seem to find the stats

    I believe ~70% of cases and ~90% of hospitalisations are unvaxxed.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/doctors-and-nurses-vent-anger-as-unvaccinated-covid-cases-delay-vital-operations-z3zchvv9l

    Does anyone know what percentage of current UK covid admissions are vaxxed? Can’t seem to find the stats

    I believe ~70% of cases and ~90% of hospitalisations are unvaxxed.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/doctors-and-nurses-vent-anger-as-unvaccinated-covid-cases-delay-vital-operations-z3zchvv9l
    70% of cases? That doesn't sounds right to me. Not with such a large proportion vaccinated.
    Can't read the article, paywalled.
    Sadly these numbers are far out of date. Fullfact picked up on them after they were used in the Economist last month and then a few days ago on TV. It was the case for a while in the middle of the summer that 90% of those in hospital were unvaccinated but that proportion dropped steadily through the last summer and autumn as Delta became more prevalent and as more people got double jabbed. Currently around 36% of hospital admissions are unvaccinated.

    https://fullfact.org/health/dr-hilary-lorraine-kelly-90-percent/
    70% of cases is the stat Tim Spector used only yesterday. Case rates among vaccinated has remained pretty constant background level, all the recent rise have been driven by unvaccinated.

    But very bad of Times to still be using 90% figure for hospitalizations even last week....I remember when they were the paper of record!
  • FarooqFarooq Posts: 10,775

    Farooq said:

    Farooq said:

    There's a contrast between the tolerance of anti-vaxxers among some leftists in the UK compared to the support for compulsory vaccination among Democrats in the USA.

    Strange, strange post.
    I see you cannot make a proper reply.

    Perhaps the difference I pointed out upsets you ?

    Here's another difference between the UK and USA on vaccination:

    In the UK the non-vaccinated are predominantly on the left, in the USA the non-vaccinated are predominantly on the right.

    Which I'll suggest highlights the difference between the UK and USA voters of the right.
    Ok, here's a proper reply.

    Firstly, there's people of all persuasions on here right now talking about this, and it seems to divide people on the right and left.
    Secondly, Democrat voters are more than half the voters of the US, so definitionally not all of them are "leftists". Unless "leftist" means something mighty peculiar in your world.

    Intriguing claim in your second post there, about non-vaccinated in the UK being "predominantly on the left". Any source for that claim, I haven't heard it before.
    Take a look at the data.

    The older people are the more likely they are to be vaccinated.

    Now how does voting change among the age bands ?

    You might also compare vaccination rates by ethnicity or deprivation.

    As to the US Democrats I don't think its a stretch to describe them as the leftist party in that country just as the Republicans are the rightest party (though that bit might suggest they are the correct party).

    And in the USA those politicians making vaccinations mandatory are Democrats.

    Whereas in the UK the plan to make vaccination compulsory among NHS workers has been opposed by the Labour party.

    My initial comment is thus proved.
    Far from proven. Please see my reply to pagan about the ecological fallacy. I don't think proxies work here.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,837
    Pagan2 said:

    dixiedean said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Farooq said:

    Farooq said:

    There's a contrast between the tolerance of anti-vaxxers among some leftists in the UK compared to the support for compulsory vaccination among Democrats in the USA.

    Strange, strange post.
    I see you cannot make a proper reply.

    Perhaps the difference I pointed out upsets you ?

    Here's another difference between the UK and USA on vaccination:

    In the UK the non-vaccinated are predominantly on the left, in the USA the non-vaccinated are predominantly on the right.

    Which I'll suggest highlights the difference between the UK and USA voters of the right.
    Ok, here's a proper reply.

    Firstly, there's people of all persuasions on here right now talking about this, and it seems to divide people on the right and left.
    Secondly, Democrat voters are more than half the voters of the US, so definitionally not all of them are "leftists". Unless "leftist" means something mighty peculiar in your world.

    Intriguing claim in your second post there, about non-vaccinated in the UK being "predominantly on the left". Any source for that claim, I haven't heard it before.
    It is fairly accepted that anti vax sentiment is prevalent in black and asian communities and amongst green voters which predominantly vote labour or other parties of the left. Though not aware of any polls or stats so purely anecdotal
    And across prominent loudmouth right wing media figures and their fellow travellers too. Purely anecdotally of course. And fairly accepted too.
    Didn't say no right wing people and they are just as wrong. However last figures I saw indicated some communities had as low as 60 to 70% vax rate among black and asian. A few right wing twitterers with a few hundred followers hardly count and are offset by all the left wing twitterers of the same mind
    Well now. I'm the same as @Farooq. That doesn't "feel" right. So 2 things.
    Firstly. Voting Labour doesn't necessarily make you left wing. You should have met my Dad! Many black and Asians do. But they aren't any more left or right wing than average I reckon. They vote Labour for identity. Many others vote Tory without being right of centre.
    Secondly. There aren't any stats I could find of any kind for vaccine refusal by political party.
    Maybe there are. Or ought to be.
    So it remains a moot point very much unproven.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 46,249
    Farooq said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Farooq said:

    Farooq said:

    There's a contrast between the tolerance of anti-vaxxers among some leftists in the UK compared to the support for compulsory vaccination among Democrats in the USA.

    Strange, strange post.
    I see you cannot make a proper reply.

    Perhaps the difference I pointed out upsets you ?

    Here's another difference between the UK and USA on vaccination:

    In the UK the non-vaccinated are predominantly on the left, in the USA the non-vaccinated are predominantly on the right.

    Which I'll suggest highlights the difference between the UK and USA voters of the right.
    Ok, here's a proper reply.

    Firstly, there's people of all persuasions on here right now talking about this, and it seems to divide people on the right and left.
    Secondly, Democrat voters are more than half the voters of the US, so definitionally not all of them are "leftists". Unless "leftist" means something mighty peculiar in your world.

    Intriguing claim in your second post there, about non-vaccinated in the UK being "predominantly on the left". Any source for that claim, I haven't heard it before.
    It is fairly accepted that anti vax sentiment is prevalent in black and asian communities and amongst green voters which predominantly vote labour or other parties of the left. Though not aware of any polls or stats so purely anecdotal
    Forgive me when I say I'm wholly unconvinced by that. But I honestly haven't thought about it before today so there may be something in it for all I know. Just my gut feeling says it's wrong.
    UK anti vaxxery is mainly Greens, Blacks, quite lot of Muslims, a few orthodox Jews, a few rightwing libertarians, and just total loons

    That swings Left, for sure, in toto. If you don't realise this you are either dim or in denial

    America seems much more complex, where the antivax sentiment is, contrarily, less race-centred and more politics-oriented

    Germany is different again, there a lot of it is driven by middle class Green homeopaths with some faint ancestral links to Nazism (Hitler was Green)

    More importantly, France shows that much antivax sentiment is exceedingly feeble, wherever it comes from. It was thought to be madly antivax but then Macron imposed vaxports on everything and now it has one of the better uptakes in the entire world
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,771

    Farooq said:

    Does anyone know what percentage of current UK covid admissions are vaxxed? Can’t seem to find the stats

    I believe ~70% of cases and ~90% of hospitalisations are unvaxxed.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/doctors-and-nurses-vent-anger-as-unvaccinated-covid-cases-delay-vital-operations-z3zchvv9l

    Does anyone know what percentage of current UK covid admissions are vaxxed? Can’t seem to find the stats

    I believe ~70% of cases and ~90% of hospitalisations are unvaxxed.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/doctors-and-nurses-vent-anger-as-unvaccinated-covid-cases-delay-vital-operations-z3zchvv9l
    70% of cases? That doesn't sounds right to me. Not with such a large proportion vaccinated.
    Can't read the article, paywalled.
    Sadly these numbers are far out of date. Fullfact picked up on them after they were used in the Economist last month and then a few days ago on TV. It was the case for a while in the middle of the summer that 90% of those in hospital were unvaccinated but that proportion dropped steadily through the last summer and autumn as Delta became more prevalent and as more people got double jabbed. Currently around 36% of hospital admissions are unvaccinated.

    https://fullfact.org/health/dr-hilary-lorraine-kelly-90-percent/
    Which is quite incredible, when you remember (a) just how few people are unvaxxed, and (b) how young they skew.
  • Must say, the map certainly makes yours truly think that this is a most salacious constituency?

    I mean, Cockshutt? And next to Pettin? Which is not far from Queen's Head (!) by way of Baggy Moor?

    Plus Grindley Brook, Norton in Hales and Stanton Upon Hine Heath (hope last two are consensual?)

    Also Hampton Wood, North Wood and Wistanwick.

    And Lord knows re: Rewl, Wem, Perthy and Great Bolas!

    Makes me want to Pant . . .
  • dixiedean said:

    Farooq said:

    There's a contrast between the tolerance of anti-vaxxers among some leftists in the UK compared to the support for compulsory vaccination among Democrats in the USA.

    Strange, strange post.
    I see you cannot make a proper reply.

    Perhaps the difference I pointed out upsets you ?

    Here's another difference between the UK and USA on vaccination:

    In the UK the non-vaccinated are predominantly on the left, in the USA the non-vaccinated are predominantly on the right.

    Which I'll suggest highlights the difference between the UK and USA voters of the right.
    "In the UK the non-vaccinated are predominantly on the left."
    Are you entirely sure of that?
    Age correlates closely to vaccination status.

    As it does to voting.

    Add in ethnicity and deprivation as lesser factors.

    The vaccination map does match the electoral map pretty closely:

    https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details/interactive-map/vaccinations
  • Farooq said:

    Does anyone know what percentage of current UK covid admissions are vaxxed? Can’t seem to find the stats

    I believe ~70% of cases and ~90% of hospitalisations are unvaxxed.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/doctors-and-nurses-vent-anger-as-unvaccinated-covid-cases-delay-vital-operations-z3zchvv9l

    Does anyone know what percentage of current UK covid admissions are vaxxed? Can’t seem to find the stats

    I believe ~70% of cases and ~90% of hospitalisations are unvaxxed.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/doctors-and-nurses-vent-anger-as-unvaccinated-covid-cases-delay-vital-operations-z3zchvv9l
    70% of cases? That doesn't sounds right to me. Not with such a large proportion vaccinated.
    Can't read the article, paywalled.
    Sadly these numbers are far out of date. Fullfact picked up on them after they were used in the Economist last month and then a few days ago on TV. It was the case for a while in the middle of the summer that 90% of those in hospital were unvaccinated but that proportion dropped steadily through the last summer and autumn as Delta became more prevalent and as more people got double jabbed. Currently around 36% of hospital admissions are unvaccinated.

    https://fullfact.org/health/dr-hilary-lorraine-kelly-90-percent/
    70% of cases is the stat Tim Spector used only yesterday. Case rates among vaccinated has remained pretty constant background level, all the recent rise have been driven by unvaccinated.

    But very bad of Times to still be using 90% figure for hospitalizations even last week....I remember when they were the paper of record!
    For clarity and with apologies I wasn't referencing eh 70% of cases at all. I haven't seen any data on that. Only the 90% of hospitalisations as it has been popping up on my newsfeed a lot the last few days.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    edited December 2021

    Farooq said:

    Does anyone know what percentage of current UK covid admissions are vaxxed? Can’t seem to find the stats

    I believe ~70% of cases and ~90% of hospitalisations are unvaxxed.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/doctors-and-nurses-vent-anger-as-unvaccinated-covid-cases-delay-vital-operations-z3zchvv9l

    Does anyone know what percentage of current UK covid admissions are vaxxed? Can’t seem to find the stats

    I believe ~70% of cases and ~90% of hospitalisations are unvaxxed.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/doctors-and-nurses-vent-anger-as-unvaccinated-covid-cases-delay-vital-operations-z3zchvv9l
    70% of cases? That doesn't sounds right to me. Not with such a large proportion vaccinated.
    Can't read the article, paywalled.
    Sadly these numbers are far out of date. Fullfact picked up on them after they were used in the Economist last month and then a few days ago on TV. It was the case for a while in the middle of the summer that 90% of those in hospital were unvaccinated but that proportion dropped steadily through the last summer and autumn as Delta became more prevalent and as more people got double jabbed. Currently around 36% of hospital admissions are unvaccinated.

    https://fullfact.org/health/dr-hilary-lorraine-kelly-90-percent/
    70% of cases is the stat Tim Spector used only yesterday. Case rates among vaccinated has remained pretty constant background level, all the recent rise have been driven by unvaccinated.

    But very bad of Times to still be using 90% figure for hospitalizations even last week....I remember when they were the paper of record!
    For clarity and with apologies I wasn't referencing eh 70% of cases at all. I haven't seen any data on that. Only the 90% of hospitalisations as it has been popping up on my newsfeed a lot the last few days.
    I did think it was very very high, I thought perhaps it was actually those in ICU rather than overall hospitalisations. But it was two weeks running on the front of the Sunday Times, so I presumed it was correct.
  • Farooq said:

    Does anyone know what percentage of current UK covid admissions are vaxxed? Can’t seem to find the stats

    I believe ~70% of cases and ~90% of hospitalisations are unvaxxed.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/doctors-and-nurses-vent-anger-as-unvaccinated-covid-cases-delay-vital-operations-z3zchvv9l

    Does anyone know what percentage of current UK covid admissions are vaxxed? Can’t seem to find the stats

    I believe ~70% of cases and ~90% of hospitalisations are unvaxxed.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/doctors-and-nurses-vent-anger-as-unvaccinated-covid-cases-delay-vital-operations-z3zchvv9l
    70% of cases? That doesn't sounds right to me. Not with such a large proportion vaccinated.
    Can't read the article, paywalled.
    Sadly these numbers are far out of date. Fullfact picked up on them after they were used in the Economist last month and then a few days ago on TV. It was the case for a while in the middle of the summer that 90% of those in hospital were unvaccinated but that proportion dropped steadily through the last summer and autumn as Delta became more prevalent and as more people got double jabbed. Currently around 36% of hospital admissions are unvaccinated.

    https://fullfact.org/health/dr-hilary-lorraine-kelly-90-percent/
    Which considering how few of the population (especially at risk population) are unvaccinated goes to show the importance of the vaccines.
    Absolutely. Sadly the anti-vax loons don't seem to be able to do that basic bit of maths.
  • Leon said:

    Farooq said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Farooq said:

    Farooq said:

    There's a contrast between the tolerance of anti-vaxxers among some leftists in the UK compared to the support for compulsory vaccination among Democrats in the USA.

    Strange, strange post.
    I see you cannot make a proper reply.

    Perhaps the difference I pointed out upsets you ?

    Here's another difference between the UK and USA on vaccination:

    In the UK the non-vaccinated are predominantly on the left, in the USA the non-vaccinated are predominantly on the right.

    Which I'll suggest highlights the difference between the UK and USA voters of the right.
    Ok, here's a proper reply.

    Firstly, there's people of all persuasions on here right now talking about this, and it seems to divide people on the right and left.
    Secondly, Democrat voters are more than half the voters of the US, so definitionally not all of them are "leftists". Unless "leftist" means something mighty peculiar in your world.

    Intriguing claim in your second post there, about non-vaccinated in the UK being "predominantly on the left". Any source for that claim, I haven't heard it before.
    It is fairly accepted that anti vax sentiment is prevalent in black and asian communities and amongst green voters which predominantly vote labour or other parties of the left. Though not aware of any polls or stats so purely anecdotal
    Forgive me when I say I'm wholly unconvinced by that. But I honestly haven't thought about it before today so there may be something in it for all I know. Just my gut feeling says it's wrong.
    UK anti vaxxery is mainly Greens, Blacks, quite lot of Muslims, a few orthodox Jews, a few rightwing libertarians, and just total loons

    That swings Left, for sure, in toto. If you don't realise this you are either dim or in denial

    America seems much more complex, where the antivax sentiment is, contrarily, less race-centred and more politics-oriented

    Germany is different again, there a lot of it is driven by middle class Green homeopaths with some faint ancestral links to Nazism (Hitler was Green)

    More importantly, France shows that much antivax sentiment is exceedingly feeble, wherever it comes from. It was thought to be madly antivax but then Macron imposed vaxports on everything and now it has one of the better uptakes in the entire world
    Did the Israelis ever manage to convince the ultra-orthodox lot to get vaccinated?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 46,249

    Leon said:

    Farooq said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Farooq said:

    Farooq said:

    There's a contrast between the tolerance of anti-vaxxers among some leftists in the UK compared to the support for compulsory vaccination among Democrats in the USA.

    Strange, strange post.
    I see you cannot make a proper reply.

    Perhaps the difference I pointed out upsets you ?

    Here's another difference between the UK and USA on vaccination:

    In the UK the non-vaccinated are predominantly on the left, in the USA the non-vaccinated are predominantly on the right.

    Which I'll suggest highlights the difference between the UK and USA voters of the right.
    Ok, here's a proper reply.

    Firstly, there's people of all persuasions on here right now talking about this, and it seems to divide people on the right and left.
    Secondly, Democrat voters are more than half the voters of the US, so definitionally not all of them are "leftists". Unless "leftist" means something mighty peculiar in your world.

    Intriguing claim in your second post there, about non-vaccinated in the UK being "predominantly on the left". Any source for that claim, I haven't heard it before.
    It is fairly accepted that anti vax sentiment is prevalent in black and asian communities and amongst green voters which predominantly vote labour or other parties of the left. Though not aware of any polls or stats so purely anecdotal
    Forgive me when I say I'm wholly unconvinced by that. But I honestly haven't thought about it before today so there may be something in it for all I know. Just my gut feeling says it's wrong.
    UK anti vaxxery is mainly Greens, Blacks, quite lot of Muslims, a few orthodox Jews, a few rightwing libertarians, and just total loons

    That swings Left, for sure, in toto. If you don't realise this you are either dim or in denial

    America seems much more complex, where the antivax sentiment is, contrarily, less race-centred and more politics-oriented

    Germany is different again, there a lot of it is driven by middle class Green homeopaths with some faint ancestral links to Nazism (Hitler was Green)

    More importantly, France shows that much antivax sentiment is exceedingly feeble, wherever it comes from. It was thought to be madly antivax but then Macron imposed vaxports on everything and now it has one of the better uptakes in the entire world
    Did the Israelis ever manage to convince the ultra-orthodox lot to get vaccinated?
    Nope, as far as I can tell. Yet again they indulged them
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    edited December 2021
    Given that the report is two doses of AZN provide zero protection from infection of Omicron, would be interesting to know what percentage of those who got double AZN have since had their booster. I think about 45-50% of the population had AZN first time around.

    I am in the tiny tiny "control group" of people who have had triple Moderna. I think only about 3-4% of people had Moderna first time around. Hope it works!!!
  • FarooqFarooq Posts: 10,775

    dixiedean said:

    Farooq said:

    There's a contrast between the tolerance of anti-vaxxers among some leftists in the UK compared to the support for compulsory vaccination among Democrats in the USA.

    Strange, strange post.
    I see you cannot make a proper reply.

    Perhaps the difference I pointed out upsets you ?

    Here's another difference between the UK and USA on vaccination:

    In the UK the non-vaccinated are predominantly on the left, in the USA the non-vaccinated are predominantly on the right.

    Which I'll suggest highlights the difference between the UK and USA voters of the right.
    "In the UK the non-vaccinated are predominantly on the left."
    Are you entirely sure of that?
    Age correlates closely to vaccination status.

    As it does to voting.

    Add in ethnicity and deprivation as lesser factors.

    The vaccination map does match the electoral map pretty closely:

    https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details/interactive-map/vaccinations
    Awkwardly, that map probably also correlates to voter turnout.
    For all you know, people who vote either way are pro-vaccine, and people who don't vote at all are antivaxxers.

    More evidence is needed for me to firmly agree or disagree.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,842
    edited December 2021
    Children are at small risk from Covid. But it is still a risk.

    USA Stats.

    Gregory Travis -- "The Duke of Mild" (TM)
    @greg_travis
    At 600 pediatric deaths per year, COVID is now the #1 natural cause of death for children

    https://twitter.com/greg_travis/status/1469419381637664776/photo/1

    I'd be amazed if the myocarditis risk from vaccination was anywhere near that.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,837

    dixiedean said:

    Farooq said:

    There's a contrast between the tolerance of anti-vaxxers among some leftists in the UK compared to the support for compulsory vaccination among Democrats in the USA.

    Strange, strange post.
    I see you cannot make a proper reply.

    Perhaps the difference I pointed out upsets you ?

    Here's another difference between the UK and USA on vaccination:

    In the UK the non-vaccinated are predominantly on the left, in the USA the non-vaccinated are predominantly on the right.

    Which I'll suggest highlights the difference between the UK and USA voters of the right.
    "In the UK the non-vaccinated are predominantly on the left."
    Are you entirely sure of that?
    Age correlates closely to vaccination status.

    As it does to voting.

    Add in ethnicity and deprivation as lesser factors.

    The vaccination map does match the electoral map pretty closely:

    https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details/interactive-map/vaccinations
    You raise an interesting point. My only counter would be that outright vaccine refusers are a minority of any demographic cohort.
    Did a quick Google and couldn't find any evidence that any stats have been taken on the VI of these folk.
    It is late. I will consider this overnight.
  • Does anyone know what percentage of current UK covid admissions are vaxxed? Can’t seem to find the stats

    36% unvaxxed, 64% vaxxed. But far more unvaxxed in ICUs.
    It was 2:1 unvaccinated to vaccinated out of 68 in Doncaster & Bassetlaw hospitals at the start of December:

    Overall the age range is between 25 and 95, and the unvaccinated to vaccinated ratio sits at around two thirds of those with us currently have opted not to get the jab to one third that has.

    https://www.doncasterfreepress.co.uk/health/coronavirus/twice-as-many-unvaccinated-covid-patients-as-vaccinated-in-doncaster-hospital-3478086

    Given the number of boosters being given to the vulnerable the proportion of unvaccinated might now be higher.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,771
    edited December 2021
    Pulpstar said:

    Children are at small risk from Covid. But it is still a risk.

    USA Stats.

    Gregory Travis -- "The Duke of Mild" (TM)
    @greg_travis
    At 600 pediatric deaths per year, COVID is now the #1 natural cause of death for children

    https://twitter.com/greg_travis/status/1469419381637664776/photo/1

    I'd be amazed if the myocarditis risk from vaccination was anywhere near that.

    It won't be.

    It will be - in all probability - at least an order of magnitude less dangerous; probably two orders of magnitude.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 46,249
    edited December 2021
    Farooq said:

    dixiedean said:

    Farooq said:

    There's a contrast between the tolerance of anti-vaxxers among some leftists in the UK compared to the support for compulsory vaccination among Democrats in the USA.

    Strange, strange post.
    I see you cannot make a proper reply.

    Perhaps the difference I pointed out upsets you ?

    Here's another difference between the UK and USA on vaccination:

    In the UK the non-vaccinated are predominantly on the left, in the USA the non-vaccinated are predominantly on the right.

    Which I'll suggest highlights the difference between the UK and USA voters of the right.
    "In the UK the non-vaccinated are predominantly on the left."
    Are you entirely sure of that?
    Age correlates closely to vaccination status.

    As it does to voting.

    Add in ethnicity and deprivation as lesser factors.

    The vaccination map does match the electoral map pretty closely:

    https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details/interactive-map/vaccinations
    Awkwardly, that map probably also correlates to voter turnout.
    For all you know, people who vote either way are pro-vaccine, and people who don't vote at all are antivaxxers.

    More evidence is needed for me to firmly agree or disagree.
    This took me literally 3 seconds to google. You are a moron

    https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/952716/s0979-factors-influencing-vaccine-uptake-minority-ethnic-groups.pdf


    I mean, really. You are as dim as shit
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,842
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Farooq said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Farooq said:

    Farooq said:

    There's a contrast between the tolerance of anti-vaxxers among some leftists in the UK compared to the support for compulsory vaccination among Democrats in the USA.

    Strange, strange post.
    I see you cannot make a proper reply.

    Perhaps the difference I pointed out upsets you ?

    Here's another difference between the UK and USA on vaccination:

    In the UK the non-vaccinated are predominantly on the left, in the USA the non-vaccinated are predominantly on the right.

    Which I'll suggest highlights the difference between the UK and USA voters of the right.
    Ok, here's a proper reply.

    Firstly, there's people of all persuasions on here right now talking about this, and it seems to divide people on the right and left.
    Secondly, Democrat voters are more than half the voters of the US, so definitionally not all of them are "leftists". Unless "leftist" means something mighty peculiar in your world.

    Intriguing claim in your second post there, about non-vaccinated in the UK being "predominantly on the left". Any source for that claim, I haven't heard it before.
    It is fairly accepted that anti vax sentiment is prevalent in black and asian communities and amongst green voters which predominantly vote labour or other parties of the left. Though not aware of any polls or stats so purely anecdotal
    Forgive me when I say I'm wholly unconvinced by that. But I honestly haven't thought about it before today so there may be something in it for all I know. Just my gut feeling says it's wrong.
    UK anti vaxxery is mainly Greens, Blacks, quite lot of Muslims, a few orthodox Jews, a few rightwing libertarians, and just total loons

    That swings Left, for sure, in toto. If you don't realise this you are either dim or in denial

    America seems much more complex, where the antivax sentiment is, contrarily, less race-centred and more politics-oriented

    Germany is different again, there a lot of it is driven by middle class Green homeopaths with some faint ancestral links to Nazism (Hitler was Green)

    More importantly, France shows that much antivax sentiment is exceedingly feeble, wherever it comes from. It was thought to be madly antivax but then Macron imposed vaxports on everything and now it has one of the better uptakes in the entire world
    Did the Israelis ever manage to convince the ultra-orthodox lot to get vaccinated?
    Nope, as far as I can tell. Yet again they indulged them
    I'd have thought the ultra orthodox would all have had Covid by now, given their preponderance for large gatherings exceeds even that of the staff of 10 Downing St.
  • FarooqFarooq Posts: 10,775
    edited December 2021
    dixiedean said:

    dixiedean said:

    Farooq said:

    There's a contrast between the tolerance of anti-vaxxers among some leftists in the UK compared to the support for compulsory vaccination among Democrats in the USA.

    Strange, strange post.
    I see you cannot make a proper reply.

    Perhaps the difference I pointed out upsets you ?

    Here's another difference between the UK and USA on vaccination:

    In the UK the non-vaccinated are predominantly on the left, in the USA the non-vaccinated are predominantly on the right.

    Which I'll suggest highlights the difference between the UK and USA voters of the right.
    "In the UK the non-vaccinated are predominantly on the left."
    Are you entirely sure of that?
    Age correlates closely to vaccination status.

    As it does to voting.

    Add in ethnicity and deprivation as lesser factors.

    The vaccination map does match the electoral map pretty closely:

    https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details/interactive-map/vaccinations
    You raise an interesting point. My only counter would be that outright vaccine refusers are a minority of any demographic cohort.
    Did a quick Google and couldn't find any evidence that any stats have been taken on the VI of these folk.
    It is late. I will consider this overnight.
    You're right. The ecological fallacy is way too big here to come to any confident conclusions.

    Last word from me on it is that even if the original hypothesis is right, that left UK and right USA are more antivax then it could be more a function of trust in the current party of government, since we're at opposite polarities on that front.

    But that's just guessing.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    edited December 2021
    Pulpstar said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Farooq said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Farooq said:

    Farooq said:

    There's a contrast between the tolerance of anti-vaxxers among some leftists in the UK compared to the support for compulsory vaccination among Democrats in the USA.

    Strange, strange post.
    I see you cannot make a proper reply.

    Perhaps the difference I pointed out upsets you ?

    Here's another difference between the UK and USA on vaccination:

    In the UK the non-vaccinated are predominantly on the left, in the USA the non-vaccinated are predominantly on the right.

    Which I'll suggest highlights the difference between the UK and USA voters of the right.
    Ok, here's a proper reply.

    Firstly, there's people of all persuasions on here right now talking about this, and it seems to divide people on the right and left.
    Secondly, Democrat voters are more than half the voters of the US, so definitionally not all of them are "leftists". Unless "leftist" means something mighty peculiar in your world.

    Intriguing claim in your second post there, about non-vaccinated in the UK being "predominantly on the left". Any source for that claim, I haven't heard it before.
    It is fairly accepted that anti vax sentiment is prevalent in black and asian communities and amongst green voters which predominantly vote labour or other parties of the left. Though not aware of any polls or stats so purely anecdotal
    Forgive me when I say I'm wholly unconvinced by that. But I honestly haven't thought about it before today so there may be something in it for all I know. Just my gut feeling says it's wrong.
    UK anti vaxxery is mainly Greens, Blacks, quite lot of Muslims, a few orthodox Jews, a few rightwing libertarians, and just total loons

    That swings Left, for sure, in toto. If you don't realise this you are either dim or in denial

    America seems much more complex, where the antivax sentiment is, contrarily, less race-centred and more politics-oriented

    Germany is different again, there a lot of it is driven by middle class Green homeopaths with some faint ancestral links to Nazism (Hitler was Green)

    More importantly, France shows that much antivax sentiment is exceedingly feeble, wherever it comes from. It was thought to be madly antivax but then Macron imposed vaxports on everything and now it has one of the better uptakes in the entire world
    Did the Israelis ever manage to convince the ultra-orthodox lot to get vaccinated?
    Nope, as far as I can tell. Yet again they indulged them
    I'd have thought the ultra orthodox would all have had Covid by now, given their preponderance for large gatherings exceeds even that of the staff of 10 Downing St.
    Apparently the Armish in the US thought they had got herd immunity, for similar reasons....but then obviously Omicron has come along.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 8,631
    dixiedean said:

    dixiedean said:

    Farooq said:

    There's a contrast between the tolerance of anti-vaxxers among some leftists in the UK compared to the support for compulsory vaccination among Democrats in the USA.

    Strange, strange post.
    I see you cannot make a proper reply.

    Perhaps the difference I pointed out upsets you ?

    Here's another difference between the UK and USA on vaccination:

    In the UK the non-vaccinated are predominantly on the left, in the USA the non-vaccinated are predominantly on the right.

    Which I'll suggest highlights the difference between the UK and USA voters of the right.
    "In the UK the non-vaccinated are predominantly on the left."
    Are you entirely sure of that?
    Age correlates closely to vaccination status.

    As it does to voting.

    Add in ethnicity and deprivation as lesser factors.

    The vaccination map does match the electoral map pretty closely:

    https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details/interactive-map/vaccinations
    You raise an interesting point. My only counter would be that outright vaccine refusers are a minority of any demographic cohort.
    Did a quick Google and couldn't find any evidence that any stats have been taken on the VI of these folk.
    It is late. I will consider this overnight.
    If a particular age cohort votes 70% left (the young) and also has the highest percentage of vaccine refusers then on the balance of probabilities is that most of those anti vaxxers will be left leaning. You would need strong proof the other way to not make the assumption.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,842

    Pulpstar said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Farooq said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Farooq said:

    Farooq said:

    There's a contrast between the tolerance of anti-vaxxers among some leftists in the UK compared to the support for compulsory vaccination among Democrats in the USA.

    Strange, strange post.
    I see you cannot make a proper reply.

    Perhaps the difference I pointed out upsets you ?

    Here's another difference between the UK and USA on vaccination:

    In the UK the non-vaccinated are predominantly on the left, in the USA the non-vaccinated are predominantly on the right.

    Which I'll suggest highlights the difference between the UK and USA voters of the right.
    Ok, here's a proper reply.

    Firstly, there's people of all persuasions on here right now talking about this, and it seems to divide people on the right and left.
    Secondly, Democrat voters are more than half the voters of the US, so definitionally not all of them are "leftists". Unless "leftist" means something mighty peculiar in your world.

    Intriguing claim in your second post there, about non-vaccinated in the UK being "predominantly on the left". Any source for that claim, I haven't heard it before.
    It is fairly accepted that anti vax sentiment is prevalent in black and asian communities and amongst green voters which predominantly vote labour or other parties of the left. Though not aware of any polls or stats so purely anecdotal
    Forgive me when I say I'm wholly unconvinced by that. But I honestly haven't thought about it before today so there may be something in it for all I know. Just my gut feeling says it's wrong.
    UK anti vaxxery is mainly Greens, Blacks, quite lot of Muslims, a few orthodox Jews, a few rightwing libertarians, and just total loons

    That swings Left, for sure, in toto. If you don't realise this you are either dim or in denial

    America seems much more complex, where the antivax sentiment is, contrarily, less race-centred and more politics-oriented

    Germany is different again, there a lot of it is driven by middle class Green homeopaths with some faint ancestral links to Nazism (Hitler was Green)

    More importantly, France shows that much antivax sentiment is exceedingly feeble, wherever it comes from. It was thought to be madly antivax but then Macron imposed vaxports on everything and now it has one of the better uptakes in the entire world
    Did the Israelis ever manage to convince the ultra-orthodox lot to get vaccinated?
    Nope, as far as I can tell. Yet again they indulged them
    I'd have thought the ultra orthodox would all have had Covid by now, given their preponderance for large gatherings exceeds even that of the staff of 10 Downing St.
    Apparently the Armish in the US thought they had got herd immunity, for similar reasons....but then obviously Omicron has come along.
    Wonder how disease severity in the previously vaccinated vs the previously infected.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 46,249
    Pulpstar said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Farooq said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Farooq said:

    Farooq said:

    There's a contrast between the tolerance of anti-vaxxers among some leftists in the UK compared to the support for compulsory vaccination among Democrats in the USA.

    Strange, strange post.
    I see you cannot make a proper reply.

    Perhaps the difference I pointed out upsets you ?

    Here's another difference between the UK and USA on vaccination:

    In the UK the non-vaccinated are predominantly on the left, in the USA the non-vaccinated are predominantly on the right.

    Which I'll suggest highlights the difference between the UK and USA voters of the right.
    Ok, here's a proper reply.

    Firstly, there's people of all persuasions on here right now talking about this, and it seems to divide people on the right and left.
    Secondly, Democrat voters are more than half the voters of the US, so definitionally not all of them are "leftists". Unless "leftist" means something mighty peculiar in your world.

    Intriguing claim in your second post there, about non-vaccinated in the UK being "predominantly on the left". Any source for that claim, I haven't heard it before.
    It is fairly accepted that anti vax sentiment is prevalent in black and asian communities and amongst green voters which predominantly vote labour or other parties of the left. Though not aware of any polls or stats so purely anecdotal
    Forgive me when I say I'm wholly unconvinced by that. But I honestly haven't thought about it before today so there may be something in it for all I know. Just my gut feeling says it's wrong.
    UK anti vaxxery is mainly Greens, Blacks, quite lot of Muslims, a few orthodox Jews, a few rightwing libertarians, and just total loons

    That swings Left, for sure, in toto. If you don't realise this you are either dim or in denial

    America seems much more complex, where the antivax sentiment is, contrarily, less race-centred and more politics-oriented

    Germany is different again, there a lot of it is driven by middle class Green homeopaths with some faint ancestral links to Nazism (Hitler was Green)

    More importantly, France shows that much antivax sentiment is exceedingly feeble, wherever it comes from. It was thought to be madly antivax but then Macron imposed vaxports on everything and now it has one of the better uptakes in the entire world
    Did the Israelis ever manage to convince the ultra-orthodox lot to get vaccinated?
    Nope, as far as I can tell. Yet again they indulged them
    I'd have thought the ultra orthodox would all have had Covid by now, given their preponderance for large gatherings exceeds even that of the staff of 10 Downing St.
    In Israel they are paradoxically protected by the aggressive, proactive health policies of the Jewish State, which say the whole country is willing to endure quarantine partly to protect this annoying but iconic minority which will not get jabbed

    Will I do the same for the likes of @Dura_Ace?

    Will I fuck
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 15,242
    edited December 2021

    Leon said:

    Farooq said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Farooq said:

    Farooq said:

    There's a contrast between the tolerance of anti-vaxxers among some leftists in the UK compared to the support for compulsory vaccination among Democrats in the USA.

    Strange, strange post.
    I see you cannot make a proper reply.

    Perhaps the difference I pointed out upsets you ?

    Here's another difference between the UK and USA on vaccination:

    In the UK the non-vaccinated are predominantly on the left, in the USA the non-vaccinated are predominantly on the right.

    Which I'll suggest highlights the difference between the UK and USA voters of the right.
    Ok, here's a proper reply.

    Firstly, there's people of all persuasions on here right now talking about this, and it seems to divide people on the right and left.
    Secondly, Democrat voters are more than half the voters of the US, so definitionally not all of them are "leftists". Unless "leftist" means something mighty peculiar in your world.

    Intriguing claim in your second post there, about non-vaccinated in the UK being "predominantly on the left". Any source for that claim, I haven't heard it before.
    It is fairly accepted that anti vax sentiment is prevalent in black and asian communities and amongst green voters which predominantly vote labour or other parties of the left. Though not aware of any polls or stats so purely anecdotal
    Forgive me when I say I'm wholly unconvinced by that. But I honestly haven't thought about it before today so there may be something in it for all I know. Just my gut feeling says it's wrong.
    UK anti vaxxery is mainly Greens, Blacks, quite lot of Muslims, a few orthodox Jews, a few rightwing libertarians, and just total loons

    That swings Left, for sure, in toto. If you don't realise this you are either dim or in denial

    America seems much more complex, where the antivax sentiment is, contrarily, less race-centred and more politics-oriented

    Germany is different again, there a lot of it is driven by middle class Green homeopaths with some faint ancestral links to Nazism (Hitler was Green)

    More importantly, France shows that much antivax sentiment is exceedingly feeble, wherever it comes from. It was thought to be madly antivax but then Macron imposed vaxports on everything and now it has one of the better uptakes in the entire world
    Did the Israelis ever manage to convince the ultra-orthodox lot to get vaccinated?
    In the US one of the lasting hangovers from the infamous Tuskegee Experiments and similar outrages, is significant anti-vax sentiment, or maybe more correctly vaccine-phobia. Native Americans are also somewhat wary, stemming back as far as small-pox infected blankets in colonial times.

    There is also correlation re: lower levels of educational attainment, which disproportionately affects minorites, and is a major factor as well with non-college educated Whites.

    ADDENDUM - Think some of these same (or similar) dynamic may also be at work in UK demography re: vaccination?

    And wonder IF this is also a significant factor with some sections of Jewish communities, in particular Orthodox esp. ultras, with memories of Nazi experiments combined with the educational attainment skew, with Orthodox somewhat lower on that scale, at least with respect to non-religious ed?
  • FarooqFarooq Posts: 10,775
    Pagan2 said:

    dixiedean said:

    dixiedean said:

    Farooq said:

    There's a contrast between the tolerance of anti-vaxxers among some leftists in the UK compared to the support for compulsory vaccination among Democrats in the USA.

    Strange, strange post.
    I see you cannot make a proper reply.

    Perhaps the difference I pointed out upsets you ?

    Here's another difference between the UK and USA on vaccination:

    In the UK the non-vaccinated are predominantly on the left, in the USA the non-vaccinated are predominantly on the right.

    Which I'll suggest highlights the difference between the UK and USA voters of the right.
    "In the UK the non-vaccinated are predominantly on the left."
    Are you entirely sure of that?
    Age correlates closely to vaccination status.

    As it does to voting.

    Add in ethnicity and deprivation as lesser factors.

    The vaccination map does match the electoral map pretty closely:

    https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details/interactive-map/vaccinations
    You raise an interesting point. My only counter would be that outright vaccine refusers are a minority of any demographic cohort.
    Did a quick Google and couldn't find any evidence that any stats have been taken on the VI of these folk.
    It is late. I will consider this overnight.
    If a particular age cohort votes 70% left (the young) and also has the highest percentage of vaccine refusers then on the balance of probabilities is that most of those anti vaxxers will be left leaning. You would need strong proof the other way to not make the assumption.
    If a particular age cohort doesn't vote 50% (the young) and also has the highest percentage of vaccine refusers then on the balance of probabilities is that most of those anti vaxxers will be apolitical. You would need strong proof the other way to not make the assumption.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 8,631
    Farooq said:

    Pagan2 said:

    dixiedean said:

    dixiedean said:

    Farooq said:

    There's a contrast between the tolerance of anti-vaxxers among some leftists in the UK compared to the support for compulsory vaccination among Democrats in the USA.

    Strange, strange post.
    I see you cannot make a proper reply.

    Perhaps the difference I pointed out upsets you ?

    Here's another difference between the UK and USA on vaccination:

    In the UK the non-vaccinated are predominantly on the left, in the USA the non-vaccinated are predominantly on the right.

    Which I'll suggest highlights the difference between the UK and USA voters of the right.
    "In the UK the non-vaccinated are predominantly on the left."
    Are you entirely sure of that?
    Age correlates closely to vaccination status.

    As it does to voting.

    Add in ethnicity and deprivation as lesser factors.

    The vaccination map does match the electoral map pretty closely:

    https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details/interactive-map/vaccinations
    You raise an interesting point. My only counter would be that outright vaccine refusers are a minority of any demographic cohort.
    Did a quick Google and couldn't find any evidence that any stats have been taken on the VI of these folk.
    It is late. I will consider this overnight.
    If a particular age cohort votes 70% left (the young) and also has the highest percentage of vaccine refusers then on the balance of probabilities is that most of those anti vaxxers will be left leaning. You would need strong proof the other way to not make the assumption.
    If a particular age cohort doesn't vote 50% (the young) and also has the highest percentage of vaccine refusers then on the balance of probabilities is that most of those anti vaxxers will be apolitical. You would need strong proof the other way to not make the assumption.
    Well see the reason that is wrong because even those that don't bother to vote often have political leanings. They aren't apolitical merely too fucking lazy to vote
  • Farooq said:

    Farooq said:

    Farooq said:

    There's a contrast between the tolerance of anti-vaxxers among some leftists in the UK compared to the support for compulsory vaccination among Democrats in the USA.

    Strange, strange post.
    I see you cannot make a proper reply.

    Perhaps the difference I pointed out upsets you ?

    Here's another difference between the UK and USA on vaccination:

    In the UK the non-vaccinated are predominantly on the left, in the USA the non-vaccinated are predominantly on the right.

    Which I'll suggest highlights the difference between the UK and USA voters of the right.
    Ok, here's a proper reply.

    Firstly, there's people of all persuasions on here right now talking about this, and it seems to divide people on the right and left.
    Secondly, Democrat voters are more than half the voters of the US, so definitionally not all of them are "leftists". Unless "leftist" means something mighty peculiar in your world.

    Intriguing claim in your second post there, about non-vaccinated in the UK being "predominantly on the left". Any source for that claim, I haven't heard it before.
    Take a look at the data.

    The older people are the more likely they are to be vaccinated.

    Now how does voting change among the age bands ?

    You might also compare vaccination rates by ethnicity or deprivation.

    As to the US Democrats I don't think its a stretch to describe them as the leftist party in that country just as the Republicans are the rightest party (though that bit might suggest they are the correct party).

    And in the USA those politicians making vaccinations mandatory are Democrats.

    Whereas in the UK the plan to make vaccination compulsory among NHS workers has been opposed by the Labour party.

    My initial comment is thus proved.
    Far from proven. Please see my reply to pagan about the ecological fallacy. I don't think proxies work here.
    The denial is amusing.

    The fact remains that UK Labour opposes compulsory vaccination for health care workers but the US Democrats support compulsory vaccination for health care workers.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 8,631
    Pagan2 said:

    Farooq said:

    Pagan2 said:

    dixiedean said:

    dixiedean said:

    Farooq said:

    There's a contrast between the tolerance of anti-vaxxers among some leftists in the UK compared to the support for compulsory vaccination among Democrats in the USA.

    Strange, strange post.
    I see you cannot make a proper reply.

    Perhaps the difference I pointed out upsets you ?

    Here's another difference between the UK and USA on vaccination:

    In the UK the non-vaccinated are predominantly on the left, in the USA the non-vaccinated are predominantly on the right.

    Which I'll suggest highlights the difference between the UK and USA voters of the right.
    "In the UK the non-vaccinated are predominantly on the left."
    Are you entirely sure of that?
    Age correlates closely to vaccination status.

    As it does to voting.

    Add in ethnicity and deprivation as lesser factors.

    The vaccination map does match the electoral map pretty closely:

    https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details/interactive-map/vaccinations
    You raise an interesting point. My only counter would be that outright vaccine refusers are a minority of any demographic cohort.
    Did a quick Google and couldn't find any evidence that any stats have been taken on the VI of these folk.
    It is late. I will consider this overnight.
    If a particular age cohort votes 70% left (the young) and also has the highest percentage of vaccine refusers then on the balance of probabilities is that most of those anti vaxxers will be left leaning. You would need strong proof the other way to not make the assumption.
    If a particular age cohort doesn't vote 50% (the young) and also has the highest percentage of vaccine refusers then on the balance of probabilities is that most of those anti vaxxers will be apolitical. You would need strong proof the other way to not make the assumption.
    Well see the reason that is wrong because even those that don't bother to vote often have political leanings. They aren't apolitical merely too fucking lazy to vote
    For example I haven't cast a vote since 2010 because the only offerings I get is tory, labour or lib dem and I don't think any are worth voting for. Does not make me apolitical
  • FarooqFarooq Posts: 10,775
    Pagan2 said:

    Farooq said:

    Pagan2 said:

    dixiedean said:

    dixiedean said:

    Farooq said:

    There's a contrast between the tolerance of anti-vaxxers among some leftists in the UK compared to the support for compulsory vaccination among Democrats in the USA.

    Strange, strange post.
    I see you cannot make a proper reply.

    Perhaps the difference I pointed out upsets you ?

    Here's another difference between the UK and USA on vaccination:

    In the UK the non-vaccinated are predominantly on the left, in the USA the non-vaccinated are predominantly on the right.

    Which I'll suggest highlights the difference between the UK and USA voters of the right.
    "In the UK the non-vaccinated are predominantly on the left."
    Are you entirely sure of that?
    Age correlates closely to vaccination status.

    As it does to voting.

    Add in ethnicity and deprivation as lesser factors.

    The vaccination map does match the electoral map pretty closely:

    https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details/interactive-map/vaccinations
    You raise an interesting point. My only counter would be that outright vaccine refusers are a minority of any demographic cohort.
    Did a quick Google and couldn't find any evidence that any stats have been taken on the VI of these folk.
    It is late. I will consider this overnight.
    If a particular age cohort votes 70% left (the young) and also has the highest percentage of vaccine refusers then on the balance of probabilities is that most of those anti vaxxers will be left leaning. You would need strong proof the other way to not make the assumption.
    If a particular age cohort doesn't vote 50% (the young) and also has the highest percentage of vaccine refusers then on the balance of probabilities is that most of those anti vaxxers will be apolitical. You would need strong proof the other way to not make the assumption.
    Well see the reason that is wrong because even those that don't bother to vote often have political leanings. They aren't apolitical merely too fucking lazy to vote
    And too lazy to get a jab. So in summary we don't know what their politics are and we don't know why they aren't jabbed.
    Are you sure you're sure about the left-right thing? It's looking shakier than ever.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 46,249

    Farooq said:

    Farooq said:

    Farooq said:

    There's a contrast between the tolerance of anti-vaxxers among some leftists in the UK compared to the support for compulsory vaccination among Democrats in the USA.

    Strange, strange post.
    I see you cannot make a proper reply.

    Perhaps the difference I pointed out upsets you ?

    Here's another difference between the UK and USA on vaccination:

    In the UK the non-vaccinated are predominantly on the left, in the USA the non-vaccinated are predominantly on the right.

    Which I'll suggest highlights the difference between the UK and USA voters of the right.
    Ok, here's a proper reply.

    Firstly, there's people of all persuasions on here right now talking about this, and it seems to divide people on the right and left.
    Secondly, Democrat voters are more than half the voters of the US, so definitionally not all of them are "leftists". Unless "leftist" means something mighty peculiar in your world.

    Intriguing claim in your second post there, about non-vaccinated in the UK being "predominantly on the left". Any source for that claim, I haven't heard it before.
    Take a look at the data.

    The older people are the more likely they are to be vaccinated.

    Now how does voting change among the age bands ?

    You might also compare vaccination rates by ethnicity or deprivation.

    As to the US Democrats I don't think its a stretch to describe them as the leftist party in that country just as the Republicans are the rightest party (though that bit might suggest they are the correct party).

    And in the USA those politicians making vaccinations mandatory are Democrats.

    Whereas in the UK the plan to make vaccination compulsory among NHS workers has been opposed by the Labour party.

    My initial comment is thus proved.
    Far from proven. Please see my reply to pagan about the ecological fallacy. I don't think proxies work here.
    The denial is amusing.

    The fact remains that UK Labour opposes compulsory vaccination for health care workers but the US Democrats support compulsory vaccination for health care workers.
    I have come to the melancholy conclusion that Farooq is genuinely quite stupid.

    He or she seemed to be a promising young commenter. But, sigh, no
  • theProletheProle Posts: 948

    Farooq said:

    Does anyone know what percentage of current UK covid admissions are vaxxed? Can’t seem to find the stats

    I believe ~70% of cases and ~90% of hospitalisations are unvaxxed.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/doctors-and-nurses-vent-anger-as-unvaccinated-covid-cases-delay-vital-operations-z3zchvv9l

    Does anyone know what percentage of current UK covid admissions are vaxxed? Can’t seem to find the stats

    I believe ~70% of cases and ~90% of hospitalisations are unvaxxed.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/doctors-and-nurses-vent-anger-as-unvaccinated-covid-cases-delay-vital-operations-z3zchvv9l
    70% of cases? That doesn't sounds right to me. Not with such a large proportion vaccinated.
    Can't read the article, paywalled.
    Sadly these numbers are far out of date. Fullfact picked up on them after they were used in the Economist last month and then a few days ago on TV. It was the case for a while in the middle of the summer that 90% of those in hospital were unvaccinated but that proportion dropped steadily through the last summer and autumn as Delta became more prevalent and as more people got double jabbed. Currently around 36% of hospital admissions are unvaccinated.

    https://fullfact.org/health/dr-hilary-lorraine-kelly-90-percent/
    Which considering how few of the population (especially at risk population) are unvaccinated goes to show the importance of the vaccines.
    It also means that mandatory vaccination (and Vaxports etc) is a complete waste of time in a UK context as well as deeply illiberal - if you could snap your fingers to vaccinate all the remaining unvaxed right now, it would reduce the hospital load by less than one doubling - so at the current growth rate of Omicron, it buys you about a day.

    The UK has had a stellar vaccine uptake, particularly in at risk groups - getting the last few stragglers really isn't worth getting excersised about.
  • Pagan2 said:

    Farooq said:

    Pagan2 said:

    dixiedean said:

    dixiedean said:

    Farooq said:

    There's a contrast between the tolerance of anti-vaxxers among some leftists in the UK compared to the support for compulsory vaccination among Democrats in the USA.

    Strange, strange post.
    I see you cannot make a proper reply.

    Perhaps the difference I pointed out upsets you ?

    Here's another difference between the UK and USA on vaccination:

    In the UK the non-vaccinated are predominantly on the left, in the USA the non-vaccinated are predominantly on the right.

    Which I'll suggest highlights the difference between the UK and USA voters of the right.
    "In the UK the non-vaccinated are predominantly on the left."
    Are you entirely sure of that?
    Age correlates closely to vaccination status.

    As it does to voting.

    Add in ethnicity and deprivation as lesser factors.

    The vaccination map does match the electoral map pretty closely:

    https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details/interactive-map/vaccinations
    You raise an interesting point. My only counter would be that outright vaccine refusers are a minority of any demographic cohort.
    Did a quick Google and couldn't find any evidence that any stats have been taken on the VI of these folk.
    It is late. I will consider this overnight.
    If a particular age cohort votes 70% left (the young) and also has the highest percentage of vaccine refusers then on the balance of probabilities is that most of those anti vaxxers will be left leaning. You would need strong proof the other way to not make the assumption.
    If a particular age cohort doesn't vote 50% (the young) and also has the highest percentage of vaccine refusers then on the balance of probabilities is that most of those anti vaxxers will be apolitical. You would need strong proof the other way to not make the assumption.
    Well see the reason that is wrong because even those that don't bother to vote often have political leanings. They aren't apolitical merely too fucking lazy to vote
    Very true. But when it comes to elections - and thus political betting - the fews of non-voters only have impact a) to the degree they affect those who DO vote; and/or b) to the extent that they get agitated enough to actually vote despite their native sloth, anarchism, whatever.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 8,631
    Farooq said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Farooq said:

    Pagan2 said:

    dixiedean said:

    dixiedean said:

    Farooq said:

    There's a contrast between the tolerance of anti-vaxxers among some leftists in the UK compared to the support for compulsory vaccination among Democrats in the USA.

    Strange, strange post.
    I see you cannot make a proper reply.

    Perhaps the difference I pointed out upsets you ?

    Here's another difference between the UK and USA on vaccination:

    In the UK the non-vaccinated are predominantly on the left, in the USA the non-vaccinated are predominantly on the right.

    Which I'll suggest highlights the difference between the UK and USA voters of the right.
    "In the UK the non-vaccinated are predominantly on the left."
    Are you entirely sure of that?
    Age correlates closely to vaccination status.

    As it does to voting.

    Add in ethnicity and deprivation as lesser factors.

    The vaccination map does match the electoral map pretty closely:

    https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details/interactive-map/vaccinations
    You raise an interesting point. My only counter would be that outright vaccine refusers are a minority of any demographic cohort.
    Did a quick Google and couldn't find any evidence that any stats have been taken on the VI of these folk.
    It is late. I will consider this overnight.
    If a particular age cohort votes 70% left (the young) and also has the highest percentage of vaccine refusers then on the balance of probabilities is that most of those anti vaxxers will be left leaning. You would need strong proof the other way to not make the assumption.
    If a particular age cohort doesn't vote 50% (the young) and also has the highest percentage of vaccine refusers then on the balance of probabilities is that most of those anti vaxxers will be apolitical. You would need strong proof the other way to not make the assumption.
    Well see the reason that is wrong because even those that don't bother to vote often have political leanings. They aren't apolitical merely too fucking lazy to vote
    And too lazy to get a jab. So in summary we don't know what their politics are and we don't know why they aren't jabbed.
    Are you sure you're sure about the left-right thing? It's looking shakier than ever.
    Nope you are just digging to find reasons to deny it frankly. Even those that dont vote have leanings politically whether they are too lazy to vote or not. If 70% lean left then anti vax is predominantly a left wing thing here on balance of probability. Look at our most prominent anti vaxxer...dura_ace....considers corbyn a bit too right wing
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 26,280
    Latest odds

    Sunak 3.6
    Truss 5.2
    Gove 9.4
    Hunt 13.5
    Javid 26
    Tugendhat 27

    https://www.betfair.com/exchange/plus/politics/market/1.160663234
  • FarooqFarooq Posts: 10,775

    Farooq said:

    Farooq said:

    Farooq said:

    There's a contrast between the tolerance of anti-vaxxers among some leftists in the UK compared to the support for compulsory vaccination among Democrats in the USA.

    Strange, strange post.
    I see you cannot make a proper reply.

    Perhaps the difference I pointed out upsets you ?

    Here's another difference between the UK and USA on vaccination:

    In the UK the non-vaccinated are predominantly on the left, in the USA the non-vaccinated are predominantly on the right.

    Which I'll suggest highlights the difference between the UK and USA voters of the right.
    Ok, here's a proper reply.

    Firstly, there's people of all persuasions on here right now talking about this, and it seems to divide people on the right and left.
    Secondly, Democrat voters are more than half the voters of the US, so definitionally not all of them are "leftists". Unless "leftist" means something mighty peculiar in your world.

    Intriguing claim in your second post there, about non-vaccinated in the UK being "predominantly on the left". Any source for that claim, I haven't heard it before.
    Take a look at the data.

    The older people are the more likely they are to be vaccinated.

    Now how does voting change among the age bands ?

    You might also compare vaccination rates by ethnicity or deprivation.

    As to the US Democrats I don't think its a stretch to describe them as the leftist party in that country just as the Republicans are the rightest party (though that bit might suggest they are the correct party).

    And in the USA those politicians making vaccinations mandatory are Democrats.

    Whereas in the UK the plan to make vaccination compulsory among NHS workers has been opposed by the Labour party.

    My initial comment is thus proved.
    Far from proven. Please see my reply to pagan about the ecological fallacy. I don't think proxies work here.
    The denial is amusing.

    The fact remains that UK Labour opposes compulsory vaccination for health care workers but the US Democrats support compulsory vaccination for health care workers.
    I'm just challenging a hypothesis I find dubious. If your point is limited to just that mandatory healthcare jabs then fine no problem, but this conversation has sort of evolved since whatever you meant, as you can see from the other posts. I think a few of us took a much broader meaning from your post.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 8,631

    Pagan2 said:

    Farooq said:

    Pagan2 said:

    dixiedean said:

    dixiedean said:

    Farooq said:

    There's a contrast between the tolerance of anti-vaxxers among some leftists in the UK compared to the support for compulsory vaccination among Democrats in the USA.

    Strange, strange post.
    I see you cannot make a proper reply.

    Perhaps the difference I pointed out upsets you ?

    Here's another difference between the UK and USA on vaccination:

    In the UK the non-vaccinated are predominantly on the left, in the USA the non-vaccinated are predominantly on the right.

    Which I'll suggest highlights the difference between the UK and USA voters of the right.
    "In the UK the non-vaccinated are predominantly on the left."
    Are you entirely sure of that?
    Age correlates closely to vaccination status.

    As it does to voting.

    Add in ethnicity and deprivation as lesser factors.

    The vaccination map does match the electoral map pretty closely:

    https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details/interactive-map/vaccinations
    You raise an interesting point. My only counter would be that outright vaccine refusers are a minority of any demographic cohort.
    Did a quick Google and couldn't find any evidence that any stats have been taken on the VI of these folk.
    It is late. I will consider this overnight.
    If a particular age cohort votes 70% left (the young) and also has the highest percentage of vaccine refusers then on the balance of probabilities is that most of those anti vaxxers will be left leaning. You would need strong proof the other way to not make the assumption.
    If a particular age cohort doesn't vote 50% (the young) and also has the highest percentage of vaccine refusers then on the balance of probabilities is that most of those anti vaxxers will be apolitical. You would need strong proof the other way to not make the assumption.
    Well see the reason that is wrong because even those that don't bother to vote often have political leanings. They aren't apolitical merely too fucking lazy to vote
    Very true. But when it comes to elections - and thus political betting - the fews of non-voters only have impact a) to the degree they affect those who DO vote; and/or b) to the extent that they get agitated enough to actually vote despite their native sloth, anarchism, whatever.
    We aren't talking about elections so have no idea what you are wittering about. The subject is do most anti vaxxers in the uk tend to lean left. I think the balance of probabilities indicates they do. No one is talking about elections
  • Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Farooq said:

    Pagan2 said:

    dixiedean said:

    dixiedean said:

    Farooq said:

    There's a contrast between the tolerance of anti-vaxxers among some leftists in the UK compared to the support for compulsory vaccination among Democrats in the USA.

    Strange, strange post.
    I see you cannot make a proper reply.

    Perhaps the difference I pointed out upsets you ?

    Here's another difference between the UK and USA on vaccination:

    In the UK the non-vaccinated are predominantly on the left, in the USA the non-vaccinated are predominantly on the right.

    Which I'll suggest highlights the difference between the UK and USA voters of the right.
    "In the UK the non-vaccinated are predominantly on the left."
    Are you entirely sure of that?
    Age correlates closely to vaccination status.

    As it does to voting.

    Add in ethnicity and deprivation as lesser factors.

    The vaccination map does match the electoral map pretty closely:

    https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details/interactive-map/vaccinations
    You raise an interesting point. My only counter would be that outright vaccine refusers are a minority of any demographic cohort.
    Did a quick Google and couldn't find any evidence that any stats have been taken on the VI of these folk.
    It is late. I will consider this overnight.
    If a particular age cohort votes 70% left (the young) and also has the highest percentage of vaccine refusers then on the balance of probabilities is that most of those anti vaxxers will be left leaning. You would need strong proof the other way to not make the assumption.
    If a particular age cohort doesn't vote 50% (the young) and also has the highest percentage of vaccine refusers then on the balance of probabilities is that most of those anti vaxxers will be apolitical. You would need strong proof the other way to not make the assumption.
    Well see the reason that is wrong because even those that don't bother to vote often have political leanings. They aren't apolitical merely too fucking lazy to vote
    For example I haven't cast a vote since 2010 because the only offerings I get is tory, labour or lib dem and I don't think any are worth voting for. Does not make me apolitical
    In your case, your impact is on others, to the extent that you actually influence their voting decisions.

    Certainly you have some impact on PB. Though whether enough to, say, power a toaster, is another question. But it's NOT zero.
  • dixiedean said:

    dixiedean said:

    Farooq said:

    There's a contrast between the tolerance of anti-vaxxers among some leftists in the UK compared to the support for compulsory vaccination among Democrats in the USA.

    Strange, strange post.
    I see you cannot make a proper reply.

    Perhaps the difference I pointed out upsets you ?

    Here's another difference between the UK and USA on vaccination:

    In the UK the non-vaccinated are predominantly on the left, in the USA the non-vaccinated are predominantly on the right.

    Which I'll suggest highlights the difference between the UK and USA voters of the right.
    "In the UK the non-vaccinated are predominantly on the left."
    Are you entirely sure of that?
    Age correlates closely to vaccination status.

    As it does to voting.

    Add in ethnicity and deprivation as lesser factors.

    The vaccination map does match the electoral map pretty closely:

    https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details/interactive-map/vaccinations
    You raise an interesting point. My only counter would be that outright vaccine refusers are a minority of any demographic cohort.
    Did a quick Google and couldn't find any evidence that any stats have been taken on the VI of these folk.
    It is late. I will consider this overnight.
    Certainly a minority but its how big a minority compared to a different minority.

    Say 95% of Conservative voters have been vaccinated and 85% of Labour voters.

    The non-vaccinated are a small minority of each but the Labour minority would be three times 15%:5% as large as that of the Conservatives.

    I wonder if people are struggling to accept this because it is so different to the situation in the USA, where anti-vaxxery is so predominant among Trump supporters and where Democrats from Biden downwards are pushing compulsory vaccination.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 15,242
    edited December 2021
    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Farooq said:

    Pagan2 said:

    dixiedean said:

    dixiedean said:

    Farooq said:

    There's a contrast between the tolerance of anti-vaxxers among some leftists in the UK compared to the support for compulsory vaccination among Democrats in the USA.

    Strange, strange post.
    I see you cannot make a proper reply.

    Perhaps the difference I pointed out upsets you ?

    Here's another difference between the UK and USA on vaccination:

    In the UK the non-vaccinated are predominantly on the left, in the USA the non-vaccinated are predominantly on the right.

    Which I'll suggest highlights the difference between the UK and USA voters of the right.
    "In the UK the non-vaccinated are predominantly on the left."
    Are you entirely sure of that?
    Age correlates closely to vaccination status.

    As it does to voting.

    Add in ethnicity and deprivation as lesser factors.

    The vaccination map does match the electoral map pretty closely:

    https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details/interactive-map/vaccinations
    You raise an interesting point. My only counter would be that outright vaccine refusers are a minority of any demographic cohort.
    Did a quick Google and couldn't find any evidence that any stats have been taken on the VI of these folk.
    It is late. I will consider this overnight.
    If a particular age cohort votes 70% left (the young) and also has the highest percentage of vaccine refusers then on the balance of probabilities is that most of those anti vaxxers will be left leaning. You would need strong proof the other way to not make the assumption.
    If a particular age cohort doesn't vote 50% (the young) and also has the highest percentage of vaccine refusers then on the balance of probabilities is that most of those anti vaxxers will be apolitical. You would need strong proof the other way to not make the assumption.
    Well see the reason that is wrong because even those that don't bother to vote often have political leanings. They aren't apolitical merely too fucking lazy to vote
    Very true. But when it comes to elections - and thus political betting - the fews of non-voters only have impact a) to the degree they affect those who DO vote; and/or b) to the extent that they get agitated enough to actually vote despite their native sloth, anarchism, whatever.
    We aren't talking about elections so have no idea what you are wittering about. The subject is do most anti vaxxers in the uk tend to lean left. I think the balance of probabilities indicates they do. No one is talking about elections
    But then you did!

    EDIT - it's all intertwined, interrelated anyway. As shown by references to Trump voters.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 8,631

    dixiedean said:

    dixiedean said:

    Farooq said:

    There's a contrast between the tolerance of anti-vaxxers among some leftists in the UK compared to the support for compulsory vaccination among Democrats in the USA.

    Strange, strange post.
    I see you cannot make a proper reply.

    Perhaps the difference I pointed out upsets you ?

    Here's another difference between the UK and USA on vaccination:

    In the UK the non-vaccinated are predominantly on the left, in the USA the non-vaccinated are predominantly on the right.

    Which I'll suggest highlights the difference between the UK and USA voters of the right.
    "In the UK the non-vaccinated are predominantly on the left."
    Are you entirely sure of that?
    Age correlates closely to vaccination status.

    As it does to voting.

    Add in ethnicity and deprivation as lesser factors.

    The vaccination map does match the electoral map pretty closely:

    https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details/interactive-map/vaccinations
    You raise an interesting point. My only counter would be that outright vaccine refusers are a minority of any demographic cohort.
    Did a quick Google and couldn't find any evidence that any stats have been taken on the VI of these folk.
    It is late. I will consider this overnight.
    Certainly a minority but its how big a minority compared to a different minority.

    Say 95% of Conservative voters have been vaccinated and 85% of Labour voters.

    The non-vaccinated are a small minority of each but the Labour minority would be three times 15%:5% as large as that of the Conservatives.

    I wonder if people are struggling to accept this because it is so different to the situation in the USA, where anti-vaxxery is so predominant among Trump supporters and where Democrats from Biden downwards are pushing compulsory vaccination.
    I wonder if its an effect of this is not a government I voted for so going to resist...in the us the democrats are in power therefore republicans are antivax, here the tories are in power so left leaning people are antivax
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 8,631

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Farooq said:

    Pagan2 said:

    dixiedean said:

    dixiedean said:

    Farooq said:

    There's a contrast between the tolerance of anti-vaxxers among some leftists in the UK compared to the support for compulsory vaccination among Democrats in the USA.

    Strange, strange post.
    I see you cannot make a proper reply.

    Perhaps the difference I pointed out upsets you ?

    Here's another difference between the UK and USA on vaccination:

    In the UK the non-vaccinated are predominantly on the left, in the USA the non-vaccinated are predominantly on the right.

    Which I'll suggest highlights the difference between the UK and USA voters of the right.
    "In the UK the non-vaccinated are predominantly on the left."
    Are you entirely sure of that?
    Age correlates closely to vaccination status.

    As it does to voting.

    Add in ethnicity and deprivation as lesser factors.

    The vaccination map does match the electoral map pretty closely:

    https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details/interactive-map/vaccinations
    You raise an interesting point. My only counter would be that outright vaccine refusers are a minority of any demographic cohort.
    Did a quick Google and couldn't find any evidence that any stats have been taken on the VI of these folk.
    It is late. I will consider this overnight.
    If a particular age cohort votes 70% left (the young) and also has the highest percentage of vaccine refusers then on the balance of probabilities is that most of those anti vaxxers will be left leaning. You would need strong proof the other way to not make the assumption.
    If a particular age cohort doesn't vote 50% (the young) and also has the highest percentage of vaccine refusers then on the balance of probabilities is that most of those anti vaxxers will be apolitical. You would need strong proof the other way to not make the assumption.
    Well see the reason that is wrong because even those that don't bother to vote often have political leanings. They aren't apolitical merely too fucking lazy to vote
    Very true. But when it comes to elections - and thus political betting - the fews of non-voters only have impact a) to the degree they affect those who DO vote; and/or b) to the extent that they get agitated enough to actually vote despite their native sloth, anarchism, whatever.
    We aren't talking about elections so have no idea what you are wittering about. The subject is do most anti vaxxers in the uk tend to lean left. I think the balance of probabilities indicates they do. No one is talking about elections
    But then you did!
    No I merely pointed out that saying those that dont vote aren't necessarily apolitical
  • FarooqFarooq Posts: 10,775
    Pagan2 said:

    Farooq said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Farooq said:

    Pagan2 said:

    dixiedean said:

    dixiedean said:

    Farooq said:

    There's a contrast between the tolerance of anti-vaxxers among some leftists in the UK compared to the support for compulsory vaccination among Democrats in the USA.

    Strange, strange post.
    I see you cannot make a proper reply.

    Perhaps the difference I pointed out upsets you ?

    Here's another difference between the UK and USA on vaccination:

    In the UK the non-vaccinated are predominantly on the left, in the USA the non-vaccinated are predominantly on the right.

    Which I'll suggest highlights the difference between the UK and USA voters of the right.
    "In the UK the non-vaccinated are predominantly on the left."
    Are you entirely sure of that?
    Age correlates closely to vaccination status.

    As it does to voting.

    Add in ethnicity and deprivation as lesser factors.

    The vaccination map does match the electoral map pretty closely:

    https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details/interactive-map/vaccinations
    You raise an interesting point. My only counter would be that outright vaccine refusers are a minority of any demographic cohort.
    Did a quick Google and couldn't find any evidence that any stats have been taken on the VI of these folk.
    It is late. I will consider this overnight.
    If a particular age cohort votes 70% left (the young) and also has the highest percentage of vaccine refusers then on the balance of probabilities is that most of those anti vaxxers will be left leaning. You would need strong proof the other way to not make the assumption.
    If a particular age cohort doesn't vote 50% (the young) and also has the highest percentage of vaccine refusers then on the balance of probabilities is that most of those anti vaxxers will be apolitical. You would need strong proof the other way to not make the assumption.
    Well see the reason that is wrong because even those that don't bother to vote often have political leanings. They aren't apolitical merely too fucking lazy to vote
    And too lazy to get a jab. So in summary we don't know what their politics are and we don't know why they aren't jabbed.
    Are you sure you're sure about the left-right thing? It's looking shakier than ever.
    Nope you are just digging to find reasons to deny it frankly. Even those that dont vote have leanings politically whether they are too lazy to vote or not. If 70% lean left then anti vax is predominantly a left wing thing here on balance of probability. Look at our most prominent anti vaxxer...dura_ace....considers corbyn a bit too right wing
    Look, you don't need to get hung up on the word "apolitical". Discard it and replace with "non voters" if you like. The point was you can't know about their political views without either some kind of survey or them voting.
    My post about the "apolitical" correlating to antivax is obviously completely unproven and suffers from the ecological fallacy, but the fact that it is exactly the same format as your argument is the point. You really need to understand the ecological fallacy before you carry on with this, because once you do you'll see you need better evidence.
    And lastly (I know, I know, I really am going to bed now though) I'm not even sure you're wrong. Far from it, you may well be right. But your methodology is fatally flawed.
    As for switching to "look at Dura_Ace", that switching your flawed methodology for a poll of size 1, with selection bias. Come on, we ALL know that's not science.
  • Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Farooq said:

    Pagan2 said:

    dixiedean said:

    dixiedean said:

    Farooq said:

    There's a contrast between the tolerance of anti-vaxxers among some leftists in the UK compared to the support for compulsory vaccination among Democrats in the USA.

    Strange, strange post.
    I see you cannot make a proper reply.

    Perhaps the difference I pointed out upsets you ?

    Here's another difference between the UK and USA on vaccination:

    In the UK the non-vaccinated are predominantly on the left, in the USA the non-vaccinated are predominantly on the right.

    Which I'll suggest highlights the difference between the UK and USA voters of the right.
    "In the UK the non-vaccinated are predominantly on the left."
    Are you entirely sure of that?
    Age correlates closely to vaccination status.

    As it does to voting.

    Add in ethnicity and deprivation as lesser factors.

    The vaccination map does match the electoral map pretty closely:

    https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details/interactive-map/vaccinations
    You raise an interesting point. My only counter would be that outright vaccine refusers are a minority of any demographic cohort.
    Did a quick Google and couldn't find any evidence that any stats have been taken on the VI of these folk.
    It is late. I will consider this overnight.
    If a particular age cohort votes 70% left (the young) and also has the highest percentage of vaccine refusers then on the balance of probabilities is that most of those anti vaxxers will be left leaning. You would need strong proof the other way to not make the assumption.
    If a particular age cohort doesn't vote 50% (the young) and also has the highest percentage of vaccine refusers then on the balance of probabilities is that most of those anti vaxxers will be apolitical. You would need strong proof the other way to not make the assumption.
    Well see the reason that is wrong because even those that don't bother to vote often have political leanings. They aren't apolitical merely too fucking lazy to vote
    Very true. But when it comes to elections - and thus political betting - the fews of non-voters only have impact a) to the degree they affect those who DO vote; and/or b) to the extent that they get agitated enough to actually vote despite their native sloth, anarchism, whatever.
    We aren't talking about elections so have no idea what you are wittering about. The subject is do most anti vaxxers in the uk tend to lean left. I think the balance of probabilities indicates they do. No one is talking about elections
    But then you did!
    No I merely pointed out that saying those that dont vote aren't necessarily apolitical
    No argument with that thesis.

    In my experience many folks very passionate about their politics are confirmed non-voters. With the one feeding the other.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 8,631

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Farooq said:

    Pagan2 said:

    dixiedean said:

    dixiedean said:

    Farooq said:

    There's a contrast between the tolerance of anti-vaxxers among some leftists in the UK compared to the support for compulsory vaccination among Democrats in the USA.

    Strange, strange post.
    I see you cannot make a proper reply.

    Perhaps the difference I pointed out upsets you ?

    Here's another difference between the UK and USA on vaccination:

    In the UK the non-vaccinated are predominantly on the left, in the USA the non-vaccinated are predominantly on the right.

    Which I'll suggest highlights the difference between the UK and USA voters of the right.
    "In the UK the non-vaccinated are predominantly on the left."
    Are you entirely sure of that?
    Age correlates closely to vaccination status.

    As it does to voting.

    Add in ethnicity and deprivation as lesser factors.

    The vaccination map does match the electoral map pretty closely:

    https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details/interactive-map/vaccinations
    You raise an interesting point. My only counter would be that outright vaccine refusers are a minority of any demographic cohort.
    Did a quick Google and couldn't find any evidence that any stats have been taken on the VI of these folk.
    It is late. I will consider this overnight.
    If a particular age cohort votes 70% left (the young) and also has the highest percentage of vaccine refusers then on the balance of probabilities is that most of those anti vaxxers will be left leaning. You would need strong proof the other way to not make the assumption.
    If a particular age cohort doesn't vote 50% (the young) and also has the highest percentage of vaccine refusers then on the balance of probabilities is that most of those anti vaxxers will be apolitical. You would need strong proof the other way to not make the assumption.
    Well see the reason that is wrong because even those that don't bother to vote often have political leanings. They aren't apolitical merely too fucking lazy to vote
    Very true. But when it comes to elections - and thus political betting - the fews of non-voters only have impact a) to the degree they affect those who DO vote; and/or b) to the extent that they get agitated enough to actually vote despite their native sloth, anarchism, whatever.
    We aren't talking about elections so have no idea what you are wittering about. The subject is do most anti vaxxers in the uk tend to lean left. I think the balance of probabilities indicates they do. No one is talking about elections
    But then you did!
    No I merely pointed out that saying those that dont vote aren't necessarily apolitical
    No argument with that thesis.

    In my experience many folks very passionate about their politics are confirmed non-voters. With the one feeding the other.
    As soon as a party that is economically liberal and socially liberal stands in my constituency I will vote again. Sadly I get a choice of left, lefter, and lefter still
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    edited December 2021
    theProle said:

    Farooq said:

    Does anyone know what percentage of current UK covid admissions are vaxxed? Can’t seem to find the stats

    I believe ~70% of cases and ~90% of hospitalisations are unvaxxed.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/doctors-and-nurses-vent-anger-as-unvaccinated-covid-cases-delay-vital-operations-z3zchvv9l

    Does anyone know what percentage of current UK covid admissions are vaxxed? Can’t seem to find the stats

    I believe ~70% of cases and ~90% of hospitalisations are unvaxxed.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/doctors-and-nurses-vent-anger-as-unvaccinated-covid-cases-delay-vital-operations-z3zchvv9l
    70% of cases? That doesn't sounds right to me. Not with such a large proportion vaccinated.
    Can't read the article, paywalled.
    Sadly these numbers are far out of date. Fullfact picked up on them after they were used in the Economist last month and then a few days ago on TV. It was the case for a while in the middle of the summer that 90% of those in hospital were unvaccinated but that proportion dropped steadily through the last summer and autumn as Delta became more prevalent and as more people got double jabbed. Currently around 36% of hospital admissions are unvaccinated.

    https://fullfact.org/health/dr-hilary-lorraine-kelly-90-percent/
    Which considering how few of the population (especially at risk population) are unvaccinated goes to show the importance of the vaccines.
    It also means that mandatory vaccination (and Vaxports etc) is a complete waste of time in a UK context as well as deeply illiberal - if you could snap your fingers to vaccinate all the remaining unvaxed right now, it would reduce the hospital load by less than one doubling - so at the current growth rate of Omicron, it buys you about a day.

    The UK has had a stellar vaccine uptake, particularly in at risk groups - getting the last few stragglers really isn't worth getting excersised about.
    I'm really not sure your mathematics are right there.

    Especially since I believe the unvaccinated can be more likely to go into ICU, and more likely to be hospitalised for longer, so admissions alone are not the only figure that matters.

    A case that ends up in ICU for a fortnight is much more of an issue than a case that ends up precautionary in hospital for 24-48 hours then discharged.
  • All Out setting Australia a target of 20 runs.

    I wonder if they'll make it? 🤔
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,837

    All Out setting Australia a target of 20 runs.

    I wonder if they'll make it? 🤔

    Jeez. If they don't.
    The parteh to end all partehs!!!!
  • dixiedean said:

    All Out setting Australia a target of 20 runs.

    I wonder if they'll make it? 🤔

    Jeez. If they don't.
    The parteh to end all partehs!!!!
    Its about as likely as Pagel saying to calm down and not worry about Covid.

    About as likely as Leon being calm.
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 5,226
    “ Vast majority of Britons have NO PROTECTION against Omicron: After 100 days two AstraZeneca doses offer virtually zero defence while two Pfizer jabs provide just 37% protection against new variant - but boosters cut risk of falling ill by 75%”

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10298323/Vast-majority-Britons-NO-PROTECTION-against-Omicron.html

    This is the simplistic nonsense that will lead us into lockdown before Christmas. Because our PM and Cabinet are too thick and poorly educated to understand why this sound byte is wrong.
  • Roger said:

    Have we covered the new poll showing Labout 8 points ahead?

    Focalpoll

    CON: 33%
    LAB: 41%
    LD: 7%
    GRN: 6%
    SNP: 5%
    PC: 1%
    OTHER: 1%

    Thanks @Roger

    The name of the pollster is Focaldata (and client Times Radio).

    Rather oddly, they compare their results with an unpublished “internal poll” last week. The Conservatives are down 4 points since 2-3 December.

    Although they claim to be bona fide (“Focaldata is a registered member of the British Polling Council (BPC) and the Market Research Society (MRS)”) they appear to fail to follow BPC rules, ie no detailed tables have been published.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 26,280
    moonshine said:

    “ Vast majority of Britons have NO PROTECTION against Omicron: After 100 days two AstraZeneca doses offer virtually zero defence while two Pfizer jabs provide just 37% protection against new variant - but boosters cut risk of falling ill by 75%”

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10298323/Vast-majority-Britons-NO-PROTECTION-against-Omicron.html

    This is the simplistic nonsense that will lead us into lockdown before Christmas. Because our PM and Cabinet are too thick and poorly educated to understand why this sound byte is wrong.

    I thought they had a team of experts to advise them?
  • Andy_JS said:

    moonshine said:

    “ Vast majority of Britons have NO PROTECTION against Omicron: After 100 days two AstraZeneca doses offer virtually zero defence while two Pfizer jabs provide just 37% protection against new variant - but boosters cut risk of falling ill by 75%”

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10298323/Vast-majority-Britons-NO-PROTECTION-against-Omicron.html

    This is the simplistic nonsense that will lead us into lockdown before Christmas. Because our PM and Cabinet are too thick and poorly educated to understand why this sound byte is wrong.

    I thought they had a team of experts to advise them?
    A team of experts in the background is absolutely worthless when the people making the decisions are “thick” and “poorly educated”.

    cf Brexit
  • kamskikamski Posts: 4,199
    Farooq said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Farooq said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Farooq said:

    Pagan2 said:

    dixiedean said:

    dixiedean said:

    Farooq said:

    There's a contrast between the tolerance of anti-vaxxers among some leftists in the UK compared to the support for compulsory vaccination among Democrats in the USA.

    Strange, strange post.
    I see you cannot make a proper reply.

    Perhaps the difference I pointed out upsets you ?

    Here's another difference between the UK and USA on vaccination:

    In the UK the non-vaccinated are predominantly on the left, in the USA the non-vaccinated are predominantly on the right.

    Which I'll suggest highlights the difference between the UK and USA voters of the right.
    "In the UK the non-vaccinated are predominantly on the left."
    Are you entirely sure of that?
    Age correlates closely to vaccination status.

    As it does to voting.

    Add in ethnicity and deprivation as lesser factors.

    The vaccination map does match the electoral map pretty closely:

    https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details/interactive-map/vaccinations
    You raise an interesting point. My only counter would be that outright vaccine refusers are a minority of any demographic cohort.
    Did a quick Google and couldn't find any evidence that any stats have been taken on the VI of these folk.
    It is late. I will consider this overnight.
    If a particular age cohort votes 70% left (the young) and also has the highest percentage of vaccine refusers then on the balance of probabilities is that most of those anti vaxxers will be left leaning. You would need strong proof the other way to not make the assumption.
    If a particular age cohort doesn't vote 50% (the young) and also has the highest percentage of vaccine refusers then on the balance of probabilities is that most of those anti vaxxers will be apolitical. You would need strong proof the other way to not make the assumption.
    Well see the reason that is wrong because even those that don't bother to vote often have political leanings. They aren't apolitical merely too fucking lazy to vote
    And too lazy to get a jab. So in summary we don't know what their politics are and we don't know why they aren't jabbed.
    Are you sure you're sure about the left-right thing? It's looking shakier than ever.
    Nope you are just digging to find reasons to deny it frankly. Even those that dont vote have leanings politically whether they are too lazy to vote or not. If 70% lean left then anti vax is predominantly a left wing thing here on balance of probability. Look at our most prominent anti vaxxer...dura_ace....considers corbyn a bit too right wing
    Look, you don't need to get hung up on the word "apolitical". Discard it and replace with "non voters" if you like. The point was you can't know about their political views without either some kind of survey or them voting.
    My post about the "apolitical" correlating to antivax is obviously completely unproven and suffers from the ecological fallacy, but the fact that it is exactly the same format as your argument is the point. You really need to understand the ecological fallacy before you carry on with this, because once you do you'll see you need better evidence.
    And lastly (I know, I know, I really am going to bed now though) I'm not even sure you're wrong. Far from it, you may well be right. But your methodology is fatally flawed.
    As for switching to "look at Dura_Ace", that switching your flawed methodology for a poll of size 1, with selection bias. Come on, we ALL know that's not science.
    There is an interesting German poll that has 50% of unvaccinated (who voted) voted AfD.
    https://www.spiegel.de/politik/deutschland/corona-und-die-afd-zwei-von-drei-ungeimpften-waehlen-rechte-parteien-a-da3157d2-c123-4796-898a-9f6bb35ee918

    It also has 15% voting for the "Basis" party. This doesn't seem right, only 1.6% voted Basis, so even if 100% of Basis voters are unvaccinated (likely as it is an antivax party) turnout amongst unvaccinated would have to be half that of vaccinated for this to be possible. Similarly the AfD figure would imply all AfD voters being unvaccinated (very unlikely), or very low turnout among unvaccinated. So I'm not sure what's going on here.

    Still, it does show only 3% voted Green, which is the most popular party for 18-25 year olds, which would support your idea.
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 5,226
    moonshine said:

    “ Vast majority of Britons have NO PROTECTION against Omicron: After 100 days two AstraZeneca doses offer virtually zero defence while two Pfizer jabs provide just 37% protection against new variant - but boosters cut risk of falling ill by 75%”

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10298323/Vast-majority-Britons-NO-PROTECTION-against-Omicron.html

    This is the simplistic nonsense that will lead us into lockdown before Christmas. Because our PM and Cabinet are too thick and poorly educated to understand why this sound byte is wrong.

    Indeed it’s fascinating to read US news right now. Mainly it’s inflation, a storm that killed 2, Russia-Ukraine and abortion in Texas. Covid is being reported largely through the prism of the uk.

    But wait I hear you say. The US had its head up its arse in Feb-March 2020, allowing for a historic one way trading bet for anyone aware of what was happening in Italy.

    So let’s refer to the South African news. Some race issues, a retiring MP, Zuma, cricket, poaching… there’s a story about “trace levels of omicron found in Cape Town waste water” and another about the difficulty of enforcing any covid restrictions on the beach.

    Either our country has gone entirely fucking mad. Or the whole lot of you doomcasters should stop wasting your time betting on a bye election and use every scrap of available liquidity to buy deep out the money NYSE puts with expiry about 6-8 weeks from now.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,517
    theProle said:

    Farooq said:

    Does anyone know what percentage of current UK covid admissions are vaxxed? Can’t seem to find the stats

    I believe ~70% of cases and ~90% of hospitalisations are unvaxxed.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/doctors-and-nurses-vent-anger-as-unvaccinated-covid-cases-delay-vital-operations-z3zchvv9l

    Does anyone know what percentage of current UK covid admissions are vaxxed? Can’t seem to find the stats

    I believe ~70% of cases and ~90% of hospitalisations are unvaxxed.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/doctors-and-nurses-vent-anger-as-unvaccinated-covid-cases-delay-vital-operations-z3zchvv9l
    70% of cases? That doesn't sounds right to me. Not with such a large proportion vaccinated.
    Can't read the article, paywalled.
    Sadly these numbers are far out of date. Fullfact picked up on them after they were used in the Economist last month and then a few days ago on TV. It was the case for a while in the middle of the summer that 90% of those in hospital were unvaccinated but that proportion dropped steadily through the last summer and autumn as Delta became more prevalent and as more people got double jabbed. Currently around 36% of hospital admissions are unvaccinated.

    https://fullfact.org/health/dr-hilary-lorraine-kelly-90-percent/
    Which considering how few of the population (especially at risk population) are unvaccinated goes to show the importance of the vaccines.
    It also means that mandatory vaccination (and Vaxports etc) is a complete waste of time in a UK context as well as deeply illiberal - if you could snap your fingers to vaccinate all the remaining unvaxed right now, it would reduce the hospital load by less than one doubling - so at the current growth rate of Omicron, it buys you about a day.

    The UK has had a stellar vaccine uptake, particularly in at risk groups - getting the last few stragglers really isn't worth getting excersised about.
    Yes, but we can tax the sh*ts extra to make them pay for their stupidity/cowardice/lack of care for others.

    They are causing extra harm to the country. They should pay for it (fiscally).
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 5,226

    Andy_JS said:

    moonshine said:

    “ Vast majority of Britons have NO PROTECTION against Omicron: After 100 days two AstraZeneca doses offer virtually zero defence while two Pfizer jabs provide just 37% protection against new variant - but boosters cut risk of falling ill by 75%”

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10298323/Vast-majority-Britons-NO-PROTECTION-against-Omicron.html

    This is the simplistic nonsense that will lead us into lockdown before Christmas. Because our PM and Cabinet are too thick and poorly educated to understand why this sound byte is wrong.

    I thought they had a team of experts to advise them?
    A team of experts in the background is absolutely worthless when the people making the decisions are “thick” and “poorly educated”.

    cf Brexit
    Problem is, in Gove and Johnson we are governed by ex hacks, backed up by second rate media and comms people. The PM’s personal sounding board at home is an art history grad that worked in Pr.

    In Sunak & Javid we have backgrounds who should be capable of absorbing technical info outside their expertise and executing decisions. But they’re greasy pole climbers.
  • theProle said:

    Farooq said:

    Does anyone know what percentage of current UK covid admissions are vaxxed? Can’t seem to find the stats

    I believe ~70% of cases and ~90% of hospitalisations are unvaxxed.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/doctors-and-nurses-vent-anger-as-unvaccinated-covid-cases-delay-vital-operations-z3zchvv9l

    Does anyone know what percentage of current UK covid admissions are vaxxed? Can’t seem to find the stats

    I believe ~70% of cases and ~90% of hospitalisations are unvaxxed.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/doctors-and-nurses-vent-anger-as-unvaccinated-covid-cases-delay-vital-operations-z3zchvv9l
    70% of cases? That doesn't sounds right to me. Not with such a large proportion vaccinated.
    Can't read the article, paywalled.
    Sadly these numbers are far out of date. Fullfact picked up on them after they were used in the Economist last month and then a few days ago on TV. It was the case for a while in the middle of the summer that 90% of those in hospital were unvaccinated but that proportion dropped steadily through the last summer and autumn as Delta became more prevalent and as more people got double jabbed. Currently around 36% of hospital admissions are unvaccinated.

    https://fullfact.org/health/dr-hilary-lorraine-kelly-90-percent/
    Which considering how few of the population (especially at risk population) are unvaccinated goes to show the importance of the vaccines.
    It also means that mandatory vaccination (and Vaxports etc) is a complete waste of time in a UK context as well as deeply illiberal - if you could snap your fingers to vaccinate all the remaining unvaxed right now, it would reduce the hospital load by less than one doubling - so at the current growth rate of Omicron, it buys you about a day.

    The UK has had a stellar vaccine uptake, particularly in at risk groups - getting the last few stragglers really isn't worth getting excersised about.
    Yes, but we can tax the sh*ts extra to make them pay for their stupidity/cowardice/lack of care for others.

    They are causing extra harm to the country. They should pay for it (fiscally).
    Liberal England has left the building.
  • Starmer repeatedly used the word “lies” about the prime minister in the clip broadcast by Radio 4’s Midnight News. I was a bit taken aback. This is highly unusual language. He must be very, very confident that the case against BJ is rock solid.
  • kamskikamski Posts: 4,199
    kamski said:

    Farooq said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Farooq said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Farooq said:

    Pagan2 said:

    dixiedean said:

    dixiedean said:

    Farooq said:

    There's a contrast between the tolerance of anti-vaxxers among some leftists in the UK compared to the support for compulsory vaccination among Democrats in the USA.

    Strange, strange post.
    I see you cannot make a proper reply.

    Perhaps the difference I pointed out upsets you ?

    Here's another difference between the UK and USA on vaccination:

    In the UK the non-vaccinated are predominantly on the left, in the USA the non-vaccinated are predominantly on the right.

    Which I'll suggest highlights the difference between the UK and USA voters of the right.
    "In the UK the non-vaccinated are predominantly on the left."
    Are you entirely sure of that?
    Age correlates closely to vaccination status.

    As it does to voting.

    Add in ethnicity and deprivation as lesser factors.

    The vaccination map does match the electoral map pretty closely:

    https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details/interactive-map/vaccinations
    You raise an interesting point. My only counter would be that outright vaccine refusers are a minority of any demographic cohort.
    Did a quick Google and couldn't find any evidence that any stats have been taken on the VI of these folk.
    It is late. I will consider this overnight.
    If a particular age cohort votes 70% left (the young) and also has the highest percentage of vaccine refusers then on the balance of probabilities is that most of those anti vaxxers will be left leaning. You would need strong proof the other way to not make the assumption.
    If a particular age cohort doesn't vote 50% (the young) and also has the highest percentage of vaccine refusers then on the balance of probabilities is that most of those anti vaxxers will be apolitical. You would need strong proof the other way to not make the assumption.
    Well see the reason that is wrong because even those that don't bother to vote often have political leanings. They aren't apolitical merely too fucking lazy to vote
    And too lazy to get a jab. So in summary we don't know what their politics are and we don't know why they aren't jabbed.
    Are you sure you're sure about the left-right thing? It's looking shakier than ever.
    Nope you are just digging to find reasons to deny it frankly. Even those that dont vote have leanings politically whether they are too lazy to vote or not. If 70% lean left then anti vax is predominantly a left wing thing here on balance of probability. Look at our most prominent anti vaxxer...dura_ace....considers corbyn a bit too right wing
    Look, you don't need to get hung up on the word "apolitical". Discard it and replace with "non voters" if you like. The point was you can't know about their political views without either some kind of survey or them voting.
    My post about the "apolitical" correlating to antivax is obviously completely unproven and suffers from the ecological fallacy, but the fact that it is exactly the same format as your argument is the point. You really need to understand the ecological fallacy before you carry on with this, because once you do you'll see you need better evidence.
    And lastly (I know, I know, I really am going to bed now though) I'm not even sure you're wrong. Far from it, you may well be right. But your methodology is fatally flawed.
    As for switching to "look at Dura_Ace", that switching your flawed methodology for a poll of size 1, with selection bias. Come on, we ALL know that's not science.
    There is an interesting German poll that has 50% of unvaccinated (who voted) voted AfD.
    https://www.spiegel.de/politik/deutschland/corona-und-die-afd-zwei-von-drei-ungeimpften-waehlen-rechte-parteien-a-da3157d2-c123-4796-898a-9f6bb35ee918

    It also has 15% voting for the "Basis" party. This doesn't seem right, only 1.6% voted Basis, so even if 100% of Basis voters are unvaccinated (likely as it is an antivax party) turnout amongst unvaccinated would have to be half that of vaccinated for this to be possible. Similarly the AfD figure would imply all AfD voters being unvaccinated (very unlikely), or very low turnout among unvaccinated. So I'm not sure what's going on here.

    Still, it does show only 3% voted Green, which is the most popular party for 18-25 year olds, which would support your idea.
    The point being you can't just say
    18-25 year olds have the lowest rate of vaccination in Germany
    The Greens are the most popular party among 18-25 year olds.
    Therefore the unvaccinated lean Green.

    No, you need some more evidence.

    What that poll also seems to say is that while both the SPD and Greens have hardly any unvaccinated voters to lose, their rightwing coalition partners the FDP do have a few.
  • - “I’d keep my stakes low if entering the market now, but I’d enter on the blue side of the bet.“

    Huh?

    What’s the point @Quincel ?

    Low stakes at rubbish odds? I just don’t get it. A thrilling game of tiddlywinks would create more adrenaline.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 47,787

    Andy_JS said:

    moonshine said:

    “ Vast majority of Britons have NO PROTECTION against Omicron: After 100 days two AstraZeneca doses offer virtually zero defence while two Pfizer jabs provide just 37% protection against new variant - but boosters cut risk of falling ill by 75%”

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10298323/Vast-majority-Britons-NO-PROTECTION-against-Omicron.html

    This is the simplistic nonsense that will lead us into lockdown before Christmas. Because our PM and Cabinet are too thick and poorly educated to understand why this sound byte is wrong.

    I thought they had a team of experts to advise them?
    A team of experts in the background is absolutely worthless when the people making the decisions are “thick” and “poorly educated”.

    cf Brexit
    This reads like an old-fashioned argument against democracy.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 26,280
    moonshine said:

    moonshine said:

    “ Vast majority of Britons have NO PROTECTION against Omicron: After 100 days two AstraZeneca doses offer virtually zero defence while two Pfizer jabs provide just 37% protection against new variant - but boosters cut risk of falling ill by 75%”

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10298323/Vast-majority-Britons-NO-PROTECTION-against-Omicron.html

    This is the simplistic nonsense that will lead us into lockdown before Christmas. Because our PM and Cabinet are too thick and poorly educated to understand why this sound byte is wrong.

    Indeed it’s fascinating to read US news right now. Mainly it’s inflation, a storm that killed 2, Russia-Ukraine and abortion in Texas. Covid is being reported largely through the prism of the uk.

    But wait I hear you say. The US had its head up its arse in Feb-March 2020, allowing for a historic one way trading bet for anyone aware of what was happening in Italy.

    So let’s refer to the South African news. Some race issues, a retiring MP, Zuma, cricket, poaching… there’s a story about “trace levels of omicron found in Cape Town waste water” and another about the difficulty of enforcing any covid restrictions on the beach.

    Either our country has gone entirely fucking mad. Or the whole lot of you doomcasters should stop wasting your time betting on a bye election and use every scrap of available liquidity to buy deep out the money NYSE puts with expiry about 6-8 weeks from now.
    The by-election is far more important. The Tories are probably going to lose it, and that means a leadership challenge to Boris Johnson. I wonder what percentage of the public have even heard of Liz Truss? She could be prime minister in a few months' time.
  • FPT it’s a very slippery slope when you start judging people for needing the NHS. When does it end?

    @Leon guzzles booze like nobody’s business. That’s a positive act that is likely to be an NHS resource drain in the future. Driving a car at 120mph is also a positive act. Refusing a vaccine is an omission.

    It feels profoundly wrong to force people to put something into their own body.

    I say this as someone who has had an operation cancelled 3 times already due to NHS pressures. 4th attempt is currently scheduled for Monday.

    Hope the op is as scheduled and goes well for you!

    I’m glad I had my cancer a couple of decades ago. A friend of mine is going through her year in hell right now and it has brought back a lot of otherwise suppressed memories. In retrospect, I had an easy time of it.
  • Dura_Ace said:

    Tory hold

    It's a huge majority to overturn so that feels like the most likely outcome but these are strange and febrile times...

    I spend a bit of time on a UK motorbike FB group and I've almost never seen politics mentioned in the years I've been on it. However this week I've seen...

    "I liked Boris at first and gave him the benefit of the doubt but now I think he's a ****."
    "Boris is a ****."
    "He's an absolute ****."

    etc. That is 'cut through'.
    I concur.

    I’ve noticed that friends and acquaintances who normally never mention politics are, unprompted, voicing strong political opinions. The general population seems to be awakening from a restless slumber. They look grumpy.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    edited December 2021
    Andy_JS said:

    moonshine said:

    moonshine said:

    “ Vast majority of Britons have NO PROTECTION against Omicron: After 100 days two AstraZeneca doses offer virtually zero defence while two Pfizer jabs provide just 37% protection against new variant - but boosters cut risk of falling ill by 75%”

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10298323/Vast-majority-Britons-NO-PROTECTION-against-Omicron.html

    This is the simplistic nonsense that will lead us into lockdown before Christmas. Because our PM and Cabinet are too thick and poorly educated to understand why this sound byte is wrong.

    Indeed it’s fascinating to read US news right now. Mainly it’s inflation, a storm that killed 2, Russia-Ukraine and abortion in Texas. Covid is being reported largely through the prism of the uk.

    But wait I hear you say. The US had its head up its arse in Feb-March 2020, allowing for a historic one way trading bet for anyone aware of what was happening in Italy.

    So let’s refer to the South African news. Some race issues, a retiring MP, Zuma, cricket, poaching… there’s a story about “trace levels of omicron found in Cape Town waste water” and another about the difficulty of enforcing any covid restrictions on the beach.

    Either our country has gone entirely fucking mad. Or the whole lot of you doomcasters should stop wasting your time betting on a bye election and use every scrap of available liquidity to buy deep out the money NYSE puts with expiry about 6-8 weeks from now.
    The by-election is far more important. The Tories are probably going to lose it, and that means a leadership challenge to Boris Johnson. I wonder what percentage of the public have even heard of Liz Truss? She could be prime minister in a few months' time.
    You are talking at cross purposes. Moonshine is highlighting what he sees as a massive opportunity on the US equity markets (where I happen to disagree with his analysis). He contrasts this with the thin financial gruel of this by election market.

    You on the other hand are talking solely about politics (and are also probably wrong).

    However, the oddest aspect of this exchange is that moonshine is responding to his own post with “indeed”!! Did he forget to log out and log in? ;)
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,517

    theProle said:

    Farooq said:

    Does anyone know what percentage of current UK covid admissions are vaxxed? Can’t seem to find the stats

    I believe ~70% of cases and ~90% of hospitalisations are unvaxxed.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/doctors-and-nurses-vent-anger-as-unvaccinated-covid-cases-delay-vital-operations-z3zchvv9l

    Does anyone know what percentage of current UK covid admissions are vaxxed? Can’t seem to find the stats

    I believe ~70% of cases and ~90% of hospitalisations are unvaxxed.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/doctors-and-nurses-vent-anger-as-unvaccinated-covid-cases-delay-vital-operations-z3zchvv9l
    70% of cases? That doesn't sounds right to me. Not with such a large proportion vaccinated.
    Can't read the article, paywalled.
    Sadly these numbers are far out of date. Fullfact picked up on them after they were used in the Economist last month and then a few days ago on TV. It was the case for a while in the middle of the summer that 90% of those in hospital were unvaccinated but that proportion dropped steadily through the last summer and autumn as Delta became more prevalent and as more people got double jabbed. Currently around 36% of hospital admissions are unvaccinated.

    https://fullfact.org/health/dr-hilary-lorraine-kelly-90-percent/
    Which considering how few of the population (especially at risk population) are unvaccinated goes to show the importance of the vaccines.
    It also means that mandatory vaccination (and Vaxports etc) is a complete waste of time in a UK context as well as deeply illiberal - if you could snap your fingers to vaccinate all the remaining unvaxed right now, it would reduce the hospital load by less than one doubling - so at the current growth rate of Omicron, it buys you about a day.

    The UK has had a stellar vaccine uptake, particularly in at risk groups - getting the last few stragglers really isn't worth getting excersised about.
    Yes, but we can tax the sh*ts extra to make them pay for their stupidity/cowardice/lack of care for others.

    They are causing extra harm to the country. They should pay for it (fiscally).
    Liberal England has left the building.
    Care to explain that?
  • Quite a chart. Scottish govt has implemented over £500m of income tax increases (equivalent to >£5bn in UK terms)
    These have netted *nothing* in additional revenues relative to no devolution. Scottish incomes have risen more slowly, and income tax base has shrunk, relative to UK


    https://twitter.com/pjtheeconomist/status/1469245604928888833?s=21
This discussion has been closed.