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In North Shropshire the betting’s getting tighter – politicalbetting.com

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  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,770

    Cyclefree said:

    Carnyx said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Sentencing remarks in the case of two police officers sent to prison for photographing the bodies of the two dead sisters they were meant to guard.

    https://twitter.com/jebadoo2/status/1467904641996308494?s=21

    I am not shocked at all to find that one of the policemen had been a trader for 20 years. And that they had a WhatsApp group called "Covid c***ts", which had 41 Met officers in it.

    Who the hell wants to see such pics!
    Don’t answer that question.
    Some of the stuff I have seen shared on traders' chats is quite revolting. So revolting in fact that I can't bring myself to describe it.

    One of the horrible things about this case is that they were so open about sharing these pictures. One wonders what else is being shared.

    Were I a victim of a sexual assault I'm not at all confident that the police would keep the details confidential.

    Does 'trader' have a meaning beyond the usual Arthur Daley one, please?
    It could mean a market trader or City trader. It is not clear which.
    I took it to mean they were like kids in playground trading footballer pictures, I’ll give you two Kane’s for your Ronaldo
    My crazy mistake
    'trader' means nothing.

    Anyone that suggests it as a plus probably lost money.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,286
    edited December 2021


    Pippa Crerar
    @PippaCrerar
    ·
    4h
    *Dominic Cummings* told me last week there were “many social gatherings” in Downing Street - even suggesting there were “always parties” in the flat Mr Johnson shares with wife, adding: “Carrie’s addicted to them”.

    A spokesman for Mrs Johnson described the claims as "total nonsense".

    Classic Dom! ;)
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,198

    Pulpstar said:

    That said, a mate had covid recently that presented as a very mild cold. He later got an actual cold that presented as a particularly nasty dose of flu.

    What's the difference between SARS-COV2 once your immune system has seen a huge amount of the spike protein via boosted immunisation & a naive case of HCoV-OC43 ?
    One would be classed as a "cold", the other "Covid" - but which is more dangerous ?
    Good question.
    Some think HCOv-OC43 was the "russian flu" before it became endemic. It's not particularly dangerous (Unless you have a shit immune system), and is classified as a "common cold" along with a plethora of other viruses these days.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,286
    Andy_JS said:
    If Harriet's decided she's had enough of never-ending opposition it shows what a dead loss SKS is...
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,770

    Neil Henderson
    @hendopolis
    EXPRESS: Bank of England warns price rises will bite even harder #TomorrowsPapersToday

    ===

    Narrator: Only a few weeks/months ago the BoE was saying all this was transitory and nothing to see here guv.

    Why have the Express printed a believable and downbeat headline? Are they well?
    Serious questions actually.

    My Brother is moaning already people working for him will be demanding more wages because of the inflationbut they can’t have it he reckons as it’s predicted to only be a little post Covid blip.

    Surely it’s the Responsibility of the Labour Party to tell their paymaster unions to have wage restraint and not to put more fuel on inflation bonfire he said.

    But if workers get inflation pay rises to avoid real terms pay cut will it actually going to make inflation that much worse do you know?

    I told him central plank of his conservative government policy is high wage economy for everyone - so they are in no position at all to call for wage restraint 🤺
    Really the Tory policy is pay as little as you can to maximum effect. It sounds horrible, but it finishes up with us all doing quite well.

    Vote Tory, because then you'll be obliged to work harder. That's really the message. (And I think the right one)
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,374
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    algarkirk said:

    But fails to explain why a party, Labour, so brilliant that it should run the country and which came second in NS last time should be encouraging its supporters to make sure it loses even more badly this time, in a leave seat, to the ultra remain party. None of this makes any sense at all. And I still think (uncertainly) that the Tories will win it.
    I expect the conservatives to lose, but if Labour are a poor third due to tactical voting that will be a problem for Starmer to explain how they say they are coming back in the north
    In a deeply rural Midlands constituency Labour is going to come a poor third due to tactical voting and I don't think it will be a problem at all for Starmer.

    Labour's response should be something along the lines that: (1) the public is clearly disillusioned with the Conservatives and judging which party to vote for on a constituency by constituency basis (2) In OBS Labour was the beneficiary, when a tactical switch of 60% of previous LD voters clearly helped Labour to its highest vote share in the constituency for 20 years (3) In Shropshire North the position was reversed and the LDs were the beneficiary of a tactical switch by Labour supporters and that (4) while there is no formal pact between the two parties, the two results show that there is little need for one as voters who want the Conservatives out are quite capable of making appropriate tactical judgements for themselves.


    However, if the Labour vote collapses to the LDs due to tactical voting then Labour could come fourth behind ReformUK as the LDs came 4th in Old Bexley and Sidcup behind ReformUK as their voters tactically voted Labour.
    And your point? So what?
    If Labour came fifth in a Libdem win next week, they would be too busy laughing to even put out a statement.
    More likely a narrow Tory hold and if Reform UK take third and beat Labour in a seat Labour was second in in 2019 that would be a blow to Starmer
    I don't see why.

    Bearing in mind this tactical voting experiment is being flown just above radar, so although it is not happening (nudge, nudge, wink, wink) everyone knows it is. The only ones likely to demand Starmer's head are PB Tories and Corbynistas.
  • GIN1138 said:

    Andy_JS said:
    If Harriet's decided she's had enough of never-ending opposition it shows what a dead loss SKS is...
    Harriet Harman is already 71 years old. 74 at the next election; almost 80 by the end of that parliament. I'd imagine we will continue to see older MPs announcing their retirements.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 13,508
    Roger said:

    Good Private Eye cover this month. I can't link it but a nice tale on the Tory drug CRACKdown

    So was the tale MPs have their ‘man’ on the payroll to help Parliament real or a made up one?
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,770
    GIN1138 said:

    Andy_JS said:
    If Harriet's decided she's had enough of never-ending opposition it shows what a dead loss SKS is...
    Mr HH is now free to do what he likes though. Different times.
  • World Chess Champion Magnus Carlsen is put to the test by English Grandmaster David Howell! How many games can he recognise?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eC1BAcOzHyY

    It is remarkable how soon Carlsen recognises some boards, and as for the Harry Potter game...
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,673

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    algarkirk said:

    But fails to explain why a party, Labour, so brilliant that it should run the country and which came second in NS last time should be encouraging its supporters to make sure it loses even more badly this time, in a leave seat, to the ultra remain party. None of this makes any sense at all. And I still think (uncertainly) that the Tories will win it.
    I expect the conservatives to lose, but if Labour are a poor third due to tactical voting that will be a problem for Starmer to explain how they say they are coming back in the north
    In a deeply rural Midlands constituency Labour is going to come a poor third due to tactical voting and I don't think it will be a problem at all for Starmer.

    Labour's response should be something along the lines that: (1) the public is clearly disillusioned with the Conservatives and judging which party to vote for on a constituency by constituency basis (2) In OBS Labour was the beneficiary, when a tactical switch of 60% of previous LD voters clearly helped Labour to its highest vote share in the constituency for 20 years (3) In Shropshire North the position was reversed and the LDs were the beneficiary of a tactical switch by Labour supporters and that (4) while there is no formal pact between the two parties, the two results show that there is little need for one as voters who want the Conservatives out are quite capable of making appropriate tactical judgements for themselves.


    However, if the Labour vote collapses to the LDs due to tactical voting then Labour could come fourth behind ReformUK as the LDs came 4th in Old Bexley and Sidcup behind ReformUK as their voters tactically voted Labour.
    And your point? So what?
    If Labour came fifth in a Libdem win next week, they would be too busy laughing to even put out a statement.
    More likely a narrow Tory hold and if Reform UK take third and beat Labour in a seat Labour was second in in 2019 that would be a blow to Starmer
    The only ones likely to demand Starmer's head are PB Tories and Corbynistas.
    I am both
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,486
    Pulpstar said:

    Pulpstar said:

    That said, a mate had covid recently that presented as a very mild cold. He later got an actual cold that presented as a particularly nasty dose of flu.

    What's the difference between SARS-COV2 once your immune system has seen a huge amount of the spike protein via boosted immunisation & a naive case of HCoV-OC43 ?
    One would be classed as a "cold", the other "Covid" - but which is more dangerous ?
    Good question.
    Some think HCOv-OC43 was the "russian flu" before it became endemic. It's not particularly dangerous (Unless you have a shit immune system), and is classified as a "common cold" along with a plethora of other viruses these days.
    Yes, I googled it when you posted. Interested to read that the ‘common cold’ is - as you say - several viruses. I assumed it was just one, albeit with regular mutations, hence the lack of cure.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,486
    GIN1138 said:

    Andy_JS said:
    If Harriet's decided she's had enough of never-ending opposition it shows what a dead loss SKS is...
    She’s 71 years of age! - albeit remarkably youthful looking.
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,770

    World Chess Champion Magnus Carlsen is put to the test by English Grandmaster David Howell! How many games can he recognise?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eC1BAcOzHyY

    It is remarkable how soon Carlsen recognises some boards, and as for the Harry Potter game...
    Chess - I think every chess player knows that a computer could and will beat him.

    Go - I love the fact that we still have skin in the game.

    New game - Someone needs to invent a game that AI's can't reliably win at.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 13,508

    Pagel speculating that we could have 90k cases a day by xmas.

    Only 90k....normally the prediction is 2-300k....with 10,000s needing hospital treatment and 5000 deaths a day.
    I know what you mean 🤣
    Do you think she would be funny as the next Dr Who?

    Christina Pagel has face and hair a lot like mine. But I wouldn’t have those eyebrows or hair style, I have it shorter and recently adding more and more pink. Quite a lot like this. That’s not me by the way!

    https://www.pinterest.co.uk/pin/4996249578428631/

    I so love that top.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,530
    edited December 2021



    The only ones likely to demand Starmer's head are PB Tories and Corbynistas.

    I am both

    But do you pass the HYUFD purity test?
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,189
    darkage said:

    From what I can pick up I think the problem with Zemmour is that he talks a good game, but doesn't have any workable policies to address the problems he has identified.

    Sure he has policies. He's going to rewrite French history to exonerate Vichy, to characterize the D Day landings as an Anglo Saxon invasion of France, and to make sure everyone knows that Captain Dreyfus was actually guilty.

    This will reinvigorate the French soul, and enable them to... mumble... mumble.. and therefore to rule the World.

    Vive Le France.
  • Omnium said:

    World Chess Champion Magnus Carlsen is put to the test by English Grandmaster David Howell! How many games can he recognise?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eC1BAcOzHyY

    It is remarkable how soon Carlsen recognises some boards, and as for the Harry Potter game...
    Chess - I think every chess player knows that a computer could and will beat him.

    Go - I love the fact that we still have skin in the game.

    New game - Someone needs to invent a game that AI's can't reliably win at.
    Political betting?
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,189
    Omnium said:

    World Chess Champion Magnus Carlsen is put to the test by English Grandmaster David Howell! How many games can he recognise?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eC1BAcOzHyY

    It is remarkable how soon Carlsen recognises some boards, and as for the Harry Potter game...
    Chess - I think every chess player knows that a computer could and will beat him.

    Go - I love the fact that we still have skin in the game.

    New game - Someone needs to invent a game that AI's can't reliably win at.
    Boar on the Floor.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,530
    HYUFD said:

    France, new Harris Interactive poll:

    Presidential election

    Macron (LREM-RE): 23% (-1)
    Le Pen (RN-ID): 18% (-2)
    Pécresse (LR-EPP): 14% (+3)
    Zemmour (*): 14% (+1)
    Melenchon (FI): 11%
    Hidalgo (PS): 5%
    https://twitter.com/EuropeElects/status/1467997899397214212?s=20

    If Pécresse can come second she would be a real threat to Macron, unlike all the others. The Melanchon-Hidalgo thing has a familiar tinge - Melanhchon is far left (and much more incendiary than Corbyn or Sanders), but he's correct that if the more traditional left=wing candidate like Hidalgo endorsed him, he might snatch 2nd. But Macron would then pulverise him.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 13,508
    Omnium said:

    World Chess Champion Magnus Carlsen is put to the test by English Grandmaster David Howell! How many games can he recognise?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eC1BAcOzHyY

    It is remarkable how soon Carlsen recognises some boards, and as for the Harry Potter game...
    Chess - I think every chess player knows that a computer could and will beat him.

    Go - I love the fact that we still have skin in the game.

    New game - Someone needs to invent a game that AI's can't reliably win at.
    Something they would be too smart to even imagine themselves doing?
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,409
    edited December 2021
    Omnium said:

    World Chess Champion Magnus Carlsen is put to the test by English Grandmaster David Howell! How many games can he recognise?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eC1BAcOzHyY

    It is remarkable how soon Carlsen recognises some boards, and as for the Harry Potter game...
    Chess - I think every chess player knows that a computer could and will beat him.

    Go - I love the fact that we still have skin in the game.

    New game - Someone needs to invent a game that AI's can't reliably win at.
    Alpha Go will beat any human.
    The difference with chess is we haven't yet fully figured out how or why. Since Go is a googol more complex than chess, any particular move made by AI can't really be understood except in relation to all the other moves in that game. Nor can they be replicated (as there are more combinations than atoms in the Universe, so unlike chess, no two games can be similar beyond the very first few moves).
    We know. It plays brutally aggressively. Seeking out fights, and rarely allowing the opponent territory in order to take some itself.
    It covers multiple areas of the board at once. Humans tended to contest an area till it was settled then move on. It doesn't.
    It places a much higher value on the centre than we ever did. We tended to take corners, sides, then fight over the middle. It doesn't always.
    So. We can't beat it. But we still don't fully comprehend why not.
    AIUI.
    Therefore it hasn't quite "solved" the game yet.
    If only it could speak to teach...
  • dixiedean said:

    Omnium said:

    World Chess Champion Magnus Carlsen is put to the test by English Grandmaster David Howell! How many games can he recognise?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eC1BAcOzHyY

    It is remarkable how soon Carlsen recognises some boards, and as for the Harry Potter game...
    Chess - I think every chess player knows that a computer could and will beat him.

    Go - I love the fact that we still have skin in the game.

    New game - Someone needs to invent a game that AI's can't reliably win at.
    Alpha Go will beat any human.
    The difference with chess is we haven't yet fully figured out how or why. Since Go is a googol more complex than chess, any particular move made by AI can't really be understood except in relation to all the other moves in that game. Nor can they be replicated (as there are more combinations than atoms in the Universe, so unlike chess, no two games can be similar beyond the very first few moves).
    We know. It plays brutally aggressively. Seeking out fights, and rarely allowing the opponent territory in order to take some itself.
    It covers multiple areas of the board at once. Humans tended to contest an area till it was settled then move on. It doesn't.
    So. We can't beat it. But we still don't fully comprehend why not.
    AIUI.
    Therefore it hasn't quite "solved" the game yet.
    If only it could speak to teach...
    "EXTERMINATE! EXTERMINATE!"
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 13,508

    GIN1138 said:

    Andy_JS said:
    If Harriet's decided she's had enough of never-ending opposition it shows what a dead loss SKS is...
    She’s 71 years of age! - albeit remarkably youthful looking.
    Have you seen pictures of her the day she first won looking Cutielicious?
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 13,508
    Omnium said:

    Neil Henderson
    @hendopolis
    EXPRESS: Bank of England warns price rises will bite even harder #TomorrowsPapersToday

    ===

    Narrator: Only a few weeks/months ago the BoE was saying all this was transitory and nothing to see here guv.

    Why have the Express printed a believable and downbeat headline? Are they well?
    Serious questions actually.

    My Brother is moaning already people working for him will be demanding more wages because of the inflationbut they can’t have it he reckons as it’s predicted to only be a little post Covid blip.

    Surely it’s the Responsibility of the Labour Party to tell their paymaster unions to have wage restraint and not to put more fuel on inflation bonfire he said.

    But if workers get inflation pay rises to avoid real terms pay cut will it actually going to make inflation that much worse do you know?

    I told him central plank of his conservative government policy is high wage economy for everyone - so they are in no position at all to call for wage restraint 🤺
    Really the Tory policy is pay as little as you can to maximum effect. It sounds horrible, but it finishes up with us all doing quite well.

    Vote Tory, because then you'll be obliged to work harder. That's really the message. (And I think the right one)
    I think Boris has changed Conservatives to high wage economy now?

    Is my brother right to only pay his workers half of current inflation because it’s only going to be a blip the right thing, or really will it have no harm to business and the economy if workers get inflation and a bit deals because everything or most things all go up at once including what businesses charge?

    He hung up saying oh right, see you at Christmas, bye but I can always face him back tomorrow :)
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,770

    Omnium said:

    World Chess Champion Magnus Carlsen is put to the test by English Grandmaster David Howell! How many games can he recognise?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eC1BAcOzHyY

    It is remarkable how soon Carlsen recognises some boards, and as for the Harry Potter game...
    Chess - I think every chess player knows that a computer could and will beat him.

    Go - I love the fact that we still have skin in the game.

    New game - Someone needs to invent a game that AI's can't reliably win at.
    Something they would be too smart to even imagine themselves doing?
    @SeaShantyIrish2 has the best idea, but it's not on tap.

    I don't know about @rcs1000 ' suggestion - sounds a bit like 'Pit' - and thus good.

    Should an AI emerge it'll be smart but limited. It'll love its limitations as we do with games like chess. (With chess there is a solution, nailed on, and yet we want to play)
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,409

    Omnium said:

    Neil Henderson
    @hendopolis
    EXPRESS: Bank of England warns price rises will bite even harder #TomorrowsPapersToday

    ===

    Narrator: Only a few weeks/months ago the BoE was saying all this was transitory and nothing to see here guv.

    Why have the Express printed a believable and downbeat headline? Are they well?
    Serious questions actually.

    My Brother is moaning already people working for him will be demanding more wages because of the inflationbut they can’t have it he reckons as it’s predicted to only be a little post Covid blip.

    Surely it’s the Responsibility of the Labour Party to tell their paymaster unions to have wage restraint and not to put more fuel on inflation bonfire he said.

    But if workers get inflation pay rises to avoid real terms pay cut will it actually going to make inflation that much worse do you know?

    I told him central plank of his conservative government policy is high wage economy for everyone - so they are in no position at all to call for wage restraint 🤺
    Really the Tory policy is pay as little as you can to maximum effect. It sounds horrible, but it finishes up with us all doing quite well.

    Vote Tory, because then you'll be obliged to work harder. That's really the message. (And I think the right one)
    I think Boris has changed Conservatives to high wage economy now?

    Is my brother right to only pay his workers half of current inflation because it’s only going to be a blip the right thing, or really will it have no harm to business and the economy if workers get inflation and a bit deals because everything or most things all go up at once including what businesses charge?

    He hung up saying oh right, see you at Christmas, bye but I can always face him back tomorrow :)
    Depends if they keep working for him...
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,770
    dixiedean said:

    Omnium said:

    Neil Henderson
    @hendopolis
    EXPRESS: Bank of England warns price rises will bite even harder #TomorrowsPapersToday

    ===

    Narrator: Only a few weeks/months ago the BoE was saying all this was transitory and nothing to see here guv.

    Why have the Express printed a believable and downbeat headline? Are they well?
    Serious questions actually.

    My Brother is moaning already people working for him will be demanding more wages because of the inflationbut they can’t have it he reckons as it’s predicted to only be a little post Covid blip.

    Surely it’s the Responsibility of the Labour Party to tell their paymaster unions to have wage restraint and not to put more fuel on inflation bonfire he said.

    But if workers get inflation pay rises to avoid real terms pay cut will it actually going to make inflation that much worse do you know?

    I told him central plank of his conservative government policy is high wage economy for everyone - so they are in no position at all to call for wage restraint 🤺
    Really the Tory policy is pay as little as you can to maximum effect. It sounds horrible, but it finishes up with us all doing quite well.

    Vote Tory, because then you'll be obliged to work harder. That's really the message. (And I think the right one)
    I think Boris has changed Conservatives to high wage economy now?

    Is my brother right to only pay his workers half of current inflation because it’s only going to be a blip the right thing, or really will it have no harm to business and the economy if workers get inflation and a bit deals because everything or most things all go up at once including what businesses charge?

    He hung up saying oh right, see you at Christmas, bye but I can always face him back tomorrow :)
    Depends if they keep working for him...
    I know it sounds awful, but I really believe that your brother should just make as much money as he can. However I would add, because I'm not entirely of the 19th century, that his gains should be viewed with regards to the future.
  • No mere machine can defeat the Bialystok bluff combined with the Gdansk gambit, the Sevastopol shift, the Tarnopol twist, the Frankfurt feint, the Czernowitz check, and (last but not least) good old Bogalusa bullshit.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,390

    Pagel speculating that we could have 90k cases a day by xmas.

    With omicron and no more mitigation I reckon that’s just about probable, not possible. It is also meaningless, we don’t yet know the severity
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,568
    edited December 2021
    Omnium said:

    World Chess Champion Magnus Carlsen is put to the test by English Grandmaster David Howell! How many games can he recognise?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eC1BAcOzHyY

    It is remarkable how soon Carlsen recognises some boards, and as for the Harry Potter game...
    Chess - I think every chess player knows that a computer could and will beat him.

    Go - I love the fact that we still have skin in the game.

    New game - Someone needs to invent a game that AI's can't reliably win at.
    Computers have been able to beat the best human chess player since 1997.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,568
    Leon said:

    Pagel speculating that we could have 90k cases a day by xmas.

    With omicron and no more mitigation I reckon that’s just about probable, not possible. It is also meaningless, we don’t yet know the severity
    336 people are known to have omicron in the UK. None of them are in hospital.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2021/dec/06/uk-covid-live-boris-johnson-no-10-christmas-party-lockdown-rules-kit-malthouse-latest-updates-
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,770

    No mere machine can defeat the Bialystok bluff combined with the Gdansk gambit, the Sevastopol shift, the Tarnopol twist, the Frankfurt feint, the Czernowitz check, and (last but not least) good old Bogalusa bullshit.

    There was/is a very interesting game that I read about in Scientific American years ago. I even played it once. It was a game in which you changed the rules of the game as the main feature of the game.

    I think the article was by the Godel. Escher, Bach author. (I refuse to look this stuff up)
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 13,508
    edited December 2021
    Omnium said:

    Omnium said:

    World Chess Champion Magnus Carlsen is put to the test by English Grandmaster David Howell! How many games can he recognise?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eC1BAcOzHyY

    It is remarkable how soon Carlsen recognises some boards, and as for the Harry Potter game...
    Chess - I think every chess player knows that a computer could and will beat him.

    Go - I love the fact that we still have skin in the game.

    New game - Someone needs to invent a game that AI's can't reliably win at.
    Something they would be too smart to even imagine themselves doing?
    @SeaShantyIrish2 has the best idea, but it's not on tap.

    I don't know about @rcs1000 ' suggestion - sounds a bit like 'Pit' - and thus good.

    Should an AI emerge it'll be smart but limited. It'll love its limitations as we do with games like chess. (With chess there is a solution, nailed on, and yet we want to play)
    Would they get as much as a human from drinking games?

    Ps Pit. Wheat wheat wheat wheat wheat wheat wheat wheat… bastard
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,770
    Andy_JS said:

    Omnium said:

    World Chess Champion Magnus Carlsen is put to the test by English Grandmaster David Howell! How many games can he recognise?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eC1BAcOzHyY

    It is remarkable how soon Carlsen recognises some boards, and as for the Harry Potter game...
    Chess - I think every chess player knows that a computer could and will beat him.

    Go - I love the fact that we still have skin in the game.

    New game - Someone needs to invent a game that AI's can't reliably win at.
    Computers have been able to beat the best human chess player since 1997.
    Able to beat, and will always beat are two different things. I'm ok at chess, but I can lose to a beginner. I've not chosen to have any chess memory as doing so would diminish the fun. I looked into the Elephant Gambit many years ago, I really like it, and I still play it, but it's knowledge that I've discarded deliberately (and oddly successfully)
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,770

    Omnium said:

    Omnium said:

    World Chess Champion Magnus Carlsen is put to the test by English Grandmaster David Howell! How many games can he recognise?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eC1BAcOzHyY

    It is remarkable how soon Carlsen recognises some boards, and as for the Harry Potter game...
    Chess - I think every chess player knows that a computer could and will beat him.

    Go - I love the fact that we still have skin in the game.

    New game - Someone needs to invent a game that AI's can't reliably win at.
    Something they would be too smart to even imagine themselves doing?
    @SeaShantyIrish2 has the best idea, but it's not on tap.

    I don't know about @rcs1000 ' suggestion - sounds a bit like 'Pit' - and thus good.

    Should an AI emerge it'll be smart but limited. It'll love its limitations as we do with games like chess. (With chess there is a solution, nailed on, and yet we want to play)
    Would they get as much as a human from drinking games?

    Ps Pit. Wheat wheat wheat wheat wheat wheat wheat wheat… bastard
    I love the description in your PS. Spot on :)

    When an AI gets as much as we do from drinking games then it'll be one of us, and we'll always harbour a resentment about hangovers. Let's call it the MoonRabbit conjecture, although as it's your's you can call it the Trevor Conjecture if you like. So...... MoonRabbit it is! (There are people that got this question wrong you know!)
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559
    edited December 2021
    Am now holding in my hot little hands, my new copy of the "World Almanac and Book of Facts 2022"

    Ever since I've lived in Seattle, I've gone down to the U-District branch of the Univesity (of WA) Bookstore toward the end of every year, and got the new World Almanac for the coming year.

    Interesting to see the changes over the years. Still chock full of interesting and occasionally useful facts & factoids. Is US standard, published continuously since 1886, when Joseph Pulitzer relaunched it. Features I personally refer to most are election returns (for example last two presidential elections by county) and the text of the US Constitution.

    Have continuous copies from 1988-2022 plus number of older ones starting with 1949.

    BTW, that year the World Almanac began its section on Foreign Countries with the British Commonwealth of Nations before dealing with the rest of the world.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 13,508
    Omnium said:

    Omnium said:

    Omnium said:

    World Chess Champion Magnus Carlsen is put to the test by English Grandmaster David Howell! How many games can he recognise?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eC1BAcOzHyY

    It is remarkable how soon Carlsen recognises some boards, and as for the Harry Potter game...
    Chess - I think every chess player knows that a computer could and will beat him.

    Go - I love the fact that we still have skin in the game.

    New game - Someone needs to invent a game that AI's can't reliably win at.
    Something they would be too smart to even imagine themselves doing?
    @SeaShantyIrish2 has the best idea, but it's not on tap.

    I don't know about @rcs1000 ' suggestion - sounds a bit like 'Pit' - and thus good.

    Should an AI emerge it'll be smart but limited. It'll love its limitations as we do with games like chess. (With chess there is a solution, nailed on, and yet we want to play)
    Would they get as much as a human from drinking games?

    Ps Pit. Wheat wheat wheat wheat wheat wheat wheat wheat… bastard
    I love the description in your PS. Spot on :)

    When an AI gets as much as we do from drinking games then it'll be one of us, and we'll always harbour a resentment about hangovers. Let's call it the MoonRabbit conjecture, although as it's your's you can call it the Trevor Conjecture if you like. So...... MoonRabbit it is! (There are people that got this question wrong you know!)
    Okay. Though i’m not quite sure what I have signed up to.

    If you don’t have Pit you can play fingers on the noses with a pack of cards. I remember we played that for hours when we should have been revising.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 13,508
    Omnium said:

    No mere machine can defeat the Bialystok bluff combined with the Gdansk gambit, the Sevastopol shift, the Tarnopol twist, the Frankfurt feint, the Czernowitz check, and (last but not least) good old Bogalusa bullshit.

    There was/is a very interesting game that I read about in Scientific American years ago. I even played it once. It was a game in which you changed the rules of the game as the main feature of the game.

    I think the article was by the Godel. Escher, Bach author. (I refuse to look this stuff up)
    The Really Nasty Horse Racing Game is a bit like that have you played that?

    The had a follow up called the Really Nasty Motor Racing Game, but it was not as nasty and crazy as the real thing.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 13,508
    Leon said:

    Pagel speculating that we could have 90k cases a day by xmas.

    With omicron and no more mitigation I reckon that’s just about probable, not possible. It is also meaningless, we don’t yet know the severity
    How are you feeling now?
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 13,508
    Omnium said:

    dixiedean said:

    Omnium said:

    Neil Henderson
    @hendopolis
    EXPRESS: Bank of England warns price rises will bite even harder #TomorrowsPapersToday

    ===

    Narrator: Only a few weeks/months ago the BoE was saying all this was transitory and nothing to see here guv.

    Why have the Express printed a believable and downbeat headline? Are they well?
    Serious questions actually.

    My Brother is moaning already people working for him will be demanding more wages because of the inflationbut they can’t have it he reckons as it’s predicted to only be a little post Covid blip.

    Surely it’s the Responsibility of the Labour Party to tell their paymaster unions to have wage restraint and not to put more fuel on inflation bonfire he said.

    But if workers get inflation pay rises to avoid real terms pay cut will it actually going to make inflation that much worse do you know?

    I told him central plank of his conservative government policy is high wage economy for everyone - so they are in no position at all to call for wage restraint 🤺
    Really the Tory policy is pay as little as you can to maximum effect. It sounds horrible, but it finishes up with us all doing quite well.

    Vote Tory, because then you'll be obliged to work harder. That's really the message. (And I think the right one)
    I think Boris has changed Conservatives to high wage economy now?

    Is my brother right to only pay his workers half of current inflation because it’s only going to be a blip the right thing, or really will it have no harm to business and the economy if workers get inflation and a bit deals because everything or most things all go up at once including what businesses charge?

    He hung up saying oh right, see you at Christmas, bye but I can always face him back tomorrow :)
    Depends if they keep working for him...
    I know it sounds awful, but I really believe that your brother should just make as much money as he can. However I would add, because I'm not entirely of the 19th century, that his gains should be viewed with regards to the future.
    Yes he does think about the future and what to do as he makes money. He is talking about buying a place on island of Gozo and getting builders in to add things like a swimming pool. It’s in the Mediterranean. Apparently my Dad thinks he will have trouble filling it with water - I said that would be funny so don’t tell him let him build a pit! He recently bought somewhere on Guernsey I haven’t been to yet.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 13,508
    🥱 🙋‍♀️
  • AslanAslan Posts: 1,673

    Omnium said:

    dixiedean said:

    Omnium said:

    Neil Henderson
    @hendopolis
    EXPRESS: Bank of England warns price rises will bite even harder #TomorrowsPapersToday

    ===

    Narrator: Only a few weeks/months ago the BoE was saying all this was transitory and nothing to see here guv.

    Why have the Express printed a believable and downbeat headline? Are they well?
    Serious questions actually.

    My Brother is moaning already people working for him will be demanding more wages because of the inflationbut they can’t have it he reckons as it’s predicted to only be a little post Covid blip.

    Surely it’s the Responsibility of the Labour Party to tell their paymaster unions to have wage restraint and not to put more fuel on inflation bonfire he said.

    But if workers get inflation pay rises to avoid real terms pay cut will it actually going to make inflation that much worse do you know?

    I told him central plank of his conservative government policy is high wage economy for everyone - so they are in no position at all to call for wage restraint 🤺
    Really the Tory policy is pay as little as you can to maximum effect. It sounds horrible, but it finishes up with us all doing quite well.

    Vote Tory, because then you'll be obliged to work harder. That's really the message. (And I think the right one)
    I think Boris has changed Conservatives to high wage economy now?

    Is my brother right to only pay his workers half of current inflation because it’s only going to be a blip the right thing, or really will it have no harm to business and the economy if workers get inflation and a bit deals because everything or most things all go up at once including what businesses charge?

    He hung up saying oh right, see you at Christmas, bye but I can always face him back tomorrow :)
    Depends if they keep working for him...
    I know it sounds awful, but I really believe that your brother should just make as much money as he can. However I would add, because I'm not entirely of the 19th century, that his gains should be viewed with regards to the future.
    Yes he does think about the future and what to do as he makes money. He is talking about buying a place on island of Gozo and getting builders in to add things like a swimming pool. It’s in the Mediterranean. Apparently my Dad thinks he will have trouble filling it with water - I said that would be funny so don’t tell him let him build a pit! He recently bought somewhere on Guernsey I haven’t been to yet.
    Even if inflation is a COVID blip, unless he expects it to actually go negative, a one off pay raise is reasonable. If he does expect it to be negative, it can be solved by a one off bonus payment.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,568
    O/T

    "1st Ashes Test: Team news and key details

    Venue: The Gabba, Brisbane
    Umpires: R Tucker, P Reiffel
    TV umpire: P Wilson
    Match referee: D Boon (all officials Australia)
    Australia: MS Harris, DA Warner, M Labuschagne, SD Smith, TM Head, CD Green, AT Carey (WK), PJ Cummins (C), MA Starc, NM Lyon, JR Hazlewood
    England (possible): RJ Burns, H Hameed, DP Malan, JE Root (C), BA Stokes, JM Bairstow, JC Buttler (WK), OE Robinson, SC Broad, MJ Leach, JM Anderson

    How to watch the Ashes 1st Test
    Dates: 8-12 December
    Start time: 12am
    TV coverage: BT Sport 1 from 11.30pm GMT (on 7 Dec)
    Live stream: BT Sport website and app
    Highlights: BT Sport 1 at 8.45am and 12pm"

    https://inews.co.uk/sport/cricket/ashes-2021-how-watch-1st-test-start-time-tv-coverage-live-stream-highlights-australia-vs-england-1338259
  • AslanAslan Posts: 1,673
    Leon said:



    Well, yeah. The book is dated with a scribble from about 2003?

    it is a period piece, and largely bullshit at that. But that doesn’t mean it is valueless. It gives an insight into the Epstein/Maxwell?/Mossad (or whoever) operation. Their targets. Socially, financially, politically, commercially and academically influential people in NY, London and elsewhere.

    Goal? Try and get them on the Lolita Express. A free private jet flight to the Virgin Islands with Prince Andrew as a golf partner. The British Royals! Gotta be legit. Salve their anxieties. Don’t shower them with girls, yet

    Let the golf commence. Or a lunch and a lecture and some networking. All above board but plenty of booze

    In the evening, relax. Luxury food, louche music, some dancing. A very young but very pretty girl takes an interest in you. Why not? You’re a minister, mogul, top Harvard boffin, major journalist. You end up in bed. You are filmed. They show you. They have photos and videos. She, it turns out, is 17 or even 15; you, it turns out, are fucked. Epstein has you by the bollocks, and you must give him what he wants and protect him if is he in endangered by the law. In the meantime, he will supply you with more parties and more fun and more girls

    So simple, yet so effective

    What sort of person in their 40s or 50s doesn't feel creepy having sexual contact with someone that's 19 or 20? And that is even if they look that old. That girl in the picture with Prince Andrew is clearly a child.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,121
    .

    Am now holding in my hot little hands, my new copy of the "World Almanac and Book of Facts 2022"

    Ever since I've lived in Seattle, I've gone down to the U-District branch of the Univesity (of WA) Bookstore toward the end of every year, and got the new World Almanac for the coming year.

    Interesting to see the changes over the years. Still chock full of interesting and occasionally useful facts & factoids. Is US standard, published continuously since 1886, when Joseph Pulitzer relaunched it. Features I personally refer to most are election returns (for example last two presidential elections by county) and the text of the US Constitution.

    Have continuous copies from 1988-2022 plus number of older ones starting with 1949.

    BTW, that year the World Almanac began its section on Foreign Countries with the British Commonwealth of Nations before dealing with the rest of the world.

    2022 ?
    That’s not a Back to the Future deal is it ?

    I’ll be watching your tips….
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,121
    Understanding Domestic Terrorism
    Mobilization Potential and Risk Factors of a New Threat Trajectory
    https://d3qi0qp55mx5f5.cloudfront.net/cpost/i/docs/americas_insurrectionists_online_2021_04_06.pdf?mtime=1617807009

    Deep dive into the demographics of the Jan 6th insurgency, and the potential implications for possible future violence.
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 9,164
    edited December 2021
    Aslan said:

    Leon said:



    Well, yeah. The book is dated with a scribble from about 2003?

    it is a period piece, and largely bullshit at that. But that doesn’t mean it is valueless. It gives an insight into the Epstein/Maxwell?/Mossad (or whoever) operation. Their targets. Socially, financially, politically, commercially and academically influential people in NY, London and elsewhere.

    Goal? Try and get them on the Lolita Express. A free private jet flight to the Virgin Islands with Prince Andrew as a golf partner. The British Royals! Gotta be legit. Salve their anxieties. Don’t shower them with girls, yet

    Let the golf commence. Or a lunch and a lecture and some networking. All above board but plenty of booze

    In the evening, relax. Luxury food, louche music, some dancing. A very young but very pretty girl takes an interest in you. Why not? You’re a minister, mogul, top Harvard boffin, major journalist. You end up in bed. You are filmed. They show you. They have photos and videos. She, it turns out, is 17 or even 15; you, it turns out, are fucked. Epstein has you by the bollocks, and you must give him what he wants and protect him if is he in endangered by the law. In the meantime, he will supply you with more parties and more fun and more girls

    So simple, yet so effective

    What sort of person in their 40s or 50s doesn't feel creepy having sexual contact with someone that's 19 or 20? And that is even if they look that old. That girl in the picture with Prince Andrew is clearly a child.
    I do worry if we're in danger of a kind of collective hypocrisy here. Relations with underage people are clearly unacceptable, and this particular case is not only about age, but also exploitation and coercion.

    While many men might also not choose to act on it, for diverse moral or social reasons, when it comes to women of 20 or so, however, many men of all ages find them as attractive as they ever did.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,189
    Aslan said:

    Leon said:



    Well, yeah. The book is dated with a scribble from about 2003?

    it is a period piece, and largely bullshit at that. But that doesn’t mean it is valueless. It gives an insight into the Epstein/Maxwell?/Mossad (or whoever) operation. Their targets. Socially, financially, politically, commercially and academically influential people in NY, London and elsewhere.

    Goal? Try and get them on the Lolita Express. A free private jet flight to the Virgin Islands with Prince Andrew as a golf partner. The British Royals! Gotta be legit. Salve their anxieties. Don’t shower them with girls, yet

    Let the golf commence. Or a lunch and a lecture and some networking. All above board but plenty of booze

    In the evening, relax. Luxury food, louche music, some dancing. A very young but very pretty girl takes an interest in you. Why not? You’re a minister, mogul, top Harvard boffin, major journalist. You end up in bed. You are filmed. They show you. They have photos and videos. She, it turns out, is 17 or even 15; you, it turns out, are fucked. Epstein has you by the bollocks, and you must give him what he wants and protect him if is he in endangered by the law. In the meantime, he will supply you with more parties and more fun and more girls

    So simple, yet so effective

    What sort of person in their 40s or 50s doesn't feel creepy having sexual contact with someone that's 19 or 20? And that is even if they look that old. That girl in the picture with Prince Andrew is clearly a child.
    I knew a girl at University that had a boyfriend 30 years hey senior. They had a relationship for six or seven years. We hated the fact that she was dating someone old enough to be our fathers, but she seemed perfectly happy.

    So long as it's mutually consensual, I really don't see why it's any of our business.
  • kamskikamski Posts: 5,190

    Aslan said:

    Leon said:



    Well, yeah. The book is dated with a scribble from about 2003?

    it is a period piece, and largely bullshit at that. But that doesn’t mean it is valueless. It gives an insight into the Epstein/Maxwell?/Mossad (or whoever) operation. Their targets. Socially, financially, politically, commercially and academically influential people in NY, London and elsewhere.

    Goal? Try and get them on the Lolita Express. A free private jet flight to the Virgin Islands with Prince Andrew as a golf partner. The British Royals! Gotta be legit. Salve their anxieties. Don’t shower them with girls, yet

    Let the golf commence. Or a lunch and a lecture and some networking. All above board but plenty of booze

    In the evening, relax. Luxury food, louche music, some dancing. A very young but very pretty girl takes an interest in you. Why not? You’re a minister, mogul, top Harvard boffin, major journalist. You end up in bed. You are filmed. They show you. They have photos and videos. She, it turns out, is 17 or even 15; you, it turns out, are fucked. Epstein has you by the bollocks, and you must give him what he wants and protect him if is he in endangered by the law. In the meantime, he will supply you with more parties and more fun and more girls

    So simple, yet so effective

    What sort of person in their 40s or 50s doesn't feel creepy having sexual contact with someone that's 19 or 20? And that is even if they look that old. That girl in the picture with Prince Andrew is clearly a child.
    I do worry if we're in danger of a kind of collective hypocrisy here. Relations with underage people are clearly unacceptable, and this particular case is not only about age, but also exploitation and coercion.

    While many men might also not choose to act on it, for diverse moral or social reasons, when it comes to women of 20 or so, however, many men of all ages find them as attractive as they ever did.
    I think if you're in your fifties and you are having sexual contact with someone who is 20, you have to be quite narcissistic (or an utterly selfish arsehole) if you don't ask yourself what is really going on. Is it possible that this is abusive? Unless you have made totally sure that it is not abusive, don't do it.
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 9,164
    edited December 2021
    kamski said:

    Aslan said:

    Leon said:



    Well, yeah. The book is dated with a scribble from about 2003?

    it is a period piece, and largely bullshit at that. But that doesn’t mean it is valueless. It gives an insight into the Epstein/Maxwell?/Mossad (or whoever) operation. Their targets. Socially, financially, politically, commercially and academically influential people in NY, London and elsewhere.

    Goal? Try and get them on the Lolita Express. A free private jet flight to the Virgin Islands with Prince Andrew as a golf partner. The British Royals! Gotta be legit. Salve their anxieties. Don’t shower them with girls, yet

    Let the golf commence. Or a lunch and a lecture and some networking. All above board but plenty of booze

    In the evening, relax. Luxury food, louche music, some dancing. A very young but very pretty girl takes an interest in you. Why not? You’re a minister, mogul, top Harvard boffin, major journalist. You end up in bed. You are filmed. They show you. They have photos and videos. She, it turns out, is 17 or even 15; you, it turns out, are fucked. Epstein has you by the bollocks, and you must give him what he wants and protect him if is he in endangered by the law. In the meantime, he will supply you with more parties and more fun and more girls

    So simple, yet so effective

    What sort of person in their 40s or 50s doesn't feel creepy having sexual contact with someone that's 19 or 20? And that is even if they look that old. That girl in the picture with Prince Andrew is clearly a child.
    I do worry if we're in danger of a kind of collective hypocrisy here. Relations with underage people are clearly unacceptable, and this particular case is not only about age, but also exploitation and coercion.

    While many men might also not choose to act on it, for diverse moral or social reasons, when it comes to women of 20 or so, however, many men of all ages find them as attractive as they ever did.
    I think if you're in your fifties and you are having sexual contact with someone who is 20, you have to be quite narcissistic (or an utterly selfish arsehole) if you don't ask yourself what is really going on. Is it possible that this is abusive? Unless you have made totally sure that it is not abusive, don't do it.
    As mentioned below, there are some full consensual relationships between adults, with vast age gaps, that seem to work for both parties. In many cases a relationship like this might be abusive, but in some it might not. I do have a concern that we're moving to an era of stereotyped power relations on these sort of questions, in line with what's politically fashionable, and which can sometimes merge into a kind of authoritarianism.

    The questions you ask are definitely valid for anyone in a relationship like this to ask themselves ; but that doesn't mean a relationship like this is necessarily inherently abusive. Human beings are far more complex than that.
  • kamskikamski Posts: 5,190

    kamski said:

    Aslan said:

    Leon said:



    Well, yeah. The book is dated with a scribble from about 2003?

    it is a period piece, and largely bullshit at that. But that doesn’t mean it is valueless. It gives an insight into the Epstein/Maxwell?/Mossad (or whoever) operation. Their targets. Socially, financially, politically, commercially and academically influential people in NY, London and elsewhere.

    Goal? Try and get them on the Lolita Express. A free private jet flight to the Virgin Islands with Prince Andrew as a golf partner. The British Royals! Gotta be legit. Salve their anxieties. Don’t shower them with girls, yet

    Let the golf commence. Or a lunch and a lecture and some networking. All above board but plenty of booze

    In the evening, relax. Luxury food, louche music, some dancing. A very young but very pretty girl takes an interest in you. Why not? You’re a minister, mogul, top Harvard boffin, major journalist. You end up in bed. You are filmed. They show you. They have photos and videos. She, it turns out, is 17 or even 15; you, it turns out, are fucked. Epstein has you by the bollocks, and you must give him what he wants and protect him if is he in endangered by the law. In the meantime, he will supply you with more parties and more fun and more girls

    So simple, yet so effective

    What sort of person in their 40s or 50s doesn't feel creepy having sexual contact with someone that's 19 or 20? And that is even if they look that old. That girl in the picture with Prince Andrew is clearly a child.
    I do worry if we're in danger of a kind of collective hypocrisy here. Relations with underage people are clearly unacceptable, and this particular case is not only about age, but also exploitation and coercion.

    While many men might also not choose to act on it, for diverse moral or social reasons, when it comes to women of 20 or so, however, many men of all ages find them as attractive as they ever did.
    I think if you're in your fifties and you are having sexual contact with someone who is 20, you have to be quite narcissistic (or an utterly selfish arsehole) if you don't ask yourself what is really going on. Is it possible that this is abusive? Unless you have made totally sure that it is not abusive, don't do it.
    As mentioned below, there are some relationships even like this that work for both parties. In many cases a relationship like this might be abusive, but in some not. I do have a concern that we're moving to an era of stereotyped power relations on these sort of questions, in line with what's politically fashionable, and that can sometimes merge into a kind of authoritarianism.

    The questions you ask are definitely valid for anyone in a relationship like this to ask themselves ; but that doesn't mean a relationship like this is necessarily inherently abusive. Human beings are far more complex than that.
    I agree with you. And it feels like we are at a moment when we are collectively understanding how much abuse has been going on - let's not sweep it under the carpet
  • kamski said:

    kamski said:

    Aslan said:

    Leon said:



    Well, yeah. The book is dated with a scribble from about 2003?

    it is a period piece, and largely bullshit at that. But that doesn’t mean it is valueless. It gives an insight into the Epstein/Maxwell?/Mossad (or whoever) operation. Their targets. Socially, financially, politically, commercially and academically influential people in NY, London and elsewhere.

    Goal? Try and get them on the Lolita Express. A free private jet flight to the Virgin Islands with Prince Andrew as a golf partner. The British Royals! Gotta be legit. Salve their anxieties. Don’t shower them with girls, yet

    Let the golf commence. Or a lunch and a lecture and some networking. All above board but plenty of booze

    In the evening, relax. Luxury food, louche music, some dancing. A very young but very pretty girl takes an interest in you. Why not? You’re a minister, mogul, top Harvard boffin, major journalist. You end up in bed. You are filmed. They show you. They have photos and videos. She, it turns out, is 17 or even 15; you, it turns out, are fucked. Epstein has you by the bollocks, and you must give him what he wants and protect him if is he in endangered by the law. In the meantime, he will supply you with more parties and more fun and more girls

    So simple, yet so effective

    What sort of person in their 40s or 50s doesn't feel creepy having sexual contact with someone that's 19 or 20? And that is even if they look that old. That girl in the picture with Prince Andrew is clearly a child.
    I do worry if we're in danger of a kind of collective hypocrisy here. Relations with underage people are clearly unacceptable, and this particular case is not only about age, but also exploitation and coercion.

    While many men might also not choose to act on it, for diverse moral or social reasons, when it comes to women of 20 or so, however, many men of all ages find them as attractive as they ever did.
    I think if you're in your fifties and you are having sexual contact with someone who is 20, you have to be quite narcissistic (or an utterly selfish arsehole) if you don't ask yourself what is really going on. Is it possible that this is abusive? Unless you have made totally sure that it is not abusive, don't do it.
    As mentioned below, there are some relationships even like this that work for both parties. In many cases a relationship like this might be abusive, but in some not. I do have a concern that we're moving to an era of stereotyped power relations on these sort of questions, in line with what's politically fashionable, and that can sometimes merge into a kind of authoritarianism.

    The questions you ask are definitely valid for anyone in a relationship like this to ask themselves ; but that doesn't mean a relationship like this is necessarily inherently abusive. Human beings are far more complex than that.
    I agree with you. And it feels like we are at a moment when we are collectively understanding how much abuse has been going on - let's not sweep it under the carpet
    Absolutey. But let's also not simultaneously over-proscribe legitimate relationships, out of anxiety because we've seen the extent of abuse that really has gone on.
  • GIN1138 said:

    Andy_JS said:
    If Harriet's decided she's had enough of never-ending opposition it shows what a dead loss SKS is...
    Harriet Harman is already 71 years old. 74 at the next election; almost 80 by the end of that parliament. I'd imagine we will continue to see older MPs announcing their retirements.
    She’s number 5. Must surely be a flurry of such announcements soon.

    So far:
    Alex Cunningham, Lab, Stockton North
    Harriet Harman, Lab, Camberwell and Peckham
    Margaret Hodge, Lab, Barking
    Douglas Ross, Con, Moray
    Barry Sheerman, Lab, Huddersfield
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,568

    GIN1138 said:

    Andy_JS said:
    If Harriet's decided she's had enough of never-ending opposition it shows what a dead loss SKS is...
    Harriet Harman is already 71 years old. 74 at the next election; almost 80 by the end of that parliament. I'd imagine we will continue to see older MPs announcing their retirements.
    She’s number 5. Must surely be a flurry of such announcements soon.

    So far:
    Alex Cunningham, Lab, Stockton North
    Harriet Harman, Lab, Camberwell and Peckham
    Margaret Hodge, Lab, Barking
    Douglas Ross, Con, Moray
    Barry Sheerman, Lab, Huddersfield
    Wondering whether Jeremy Corbyn and/or John McDonnell might be added to the list.
  • kamskikamski Posts: 5,190

    kamski said:

    kamski said:

    Aslan said:

    Leon said:



    Well, yeah. The book is dated with a scribble from about 2003?

    it is a period piece, and largely bullshit at that. But that doesn’t mean it is valueless. It gives an insight into the Epstein/Maxwell?/Mossad (or whoever) operation. Their targets. Socially, financially, politically, commercially and academically influential people in NY, London and elsewhere.

    Goal? Try and get them on the Lolita Express. A free private jet flight to the Virgin Islands with Prince Andrew as a golf partner. The British Royals! Gotta be legit. Salve their anxieties. Don’t shower them with girls, yet

    Let the golf commence. Or a lunch and a lecture and some networking. All above board but plenty of booze

    In the evening, relax. Luxury food, louche music, some dancing. A very young but very pretty girl takes an interest in you. Why not? You’re a minister, mogul, top Harvard boffin, major journalist. You end up in bed. You are filmed. They show you. They have photos and videos. She, it turns out, is 17 or even 15; you, it turns out, are fucked. Epstein has you by the bollocks, and you must give him what he wants and protect him if is he in endangered by the law. In the meantime, he will supply you with more parties and more fun and more girls

    So simple, yet so effective

    What sort of person in their 40s or 50s doesn't feel creepy having sexual contact with someone that's 19 or 20? And that is even if they look that old. That girl in the picture with Prince Andrew is clearly a child.
    I do worry if we're in danger of a kind of collective hypocrisy here. Relations with underage people are clearly unacceptable, and this particular case is not only about age, but also exploitation and coercion.

    While many men might also not choose to act on it, for diverse moral or social reasons, when it comes to women of 20 or so, however, many men of all ages find them as attractive as they ever did.
    I think if you're in your fifties and you are having sexual contact with someone who is 20, you have to be quite narcissistic (or an utterly selfish arsehole) if you don't ask yourself what is really going on. Is it possible that this is abusive? Unless you have made totally sure that it is not abusive, don't do it.
    As mentioned below, there are some relationships even like this that work for both parties. In many cases a relationship like this might be abusive, but in some not. I do have a concern that we're moving to an era of stereotyped power relations on these sort of questions, in line with what's politically fashionable, and that can sometimes merge into a kind of authoritarianism.

    The questions you ask are definitely valid for anyone in a relationship like this to ask themselves ; but that doesn't mean a relationship like this is necessarily inherently abusive. Human beings are far more complex than that.
    I agree with you. And it feels like we are at a moment when we are collectively understanding how much abuse has been going on - let's not sweep it under the carpet
    Absolutey. But let's also not simultaneously over-proscribe legitimate relationships, out of anxiety because we've seen the extent of abuse that really has gone on.
    I wouldn't condemn anyone for being attracted to someone much younger, nor for having a relationship with a big age difference.

    But I do think we have only seen the tip of the iceberg. We collectively need to really wake up. Only this year I am hearing from people (mostly women) who were sexually abused as teenagers or younger in the seventies and eighties. Some of these people I have known for decades and I had no idea. Now I am hearing stuff because I am involved in a private group of people who have come to the point of wanting to reveal these secrets (which in itself is an interesting story but not for here), so it's not been made public. It's really shocking how widespread this stuff was. I'm hoping things have got better.

    And it takes a lot of courage for people to talk about these things, so I'm a bit oversensitive to comments of the "older men have always been attracted to young women" type, which can sometimes be used to minimise what happened and then people can be re-traumatised if they finally have the courage to reveal something and then are not taken seriously. That is just what I am seeing with people that I know.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,420
    Andy_JS said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Andy_JS said:
    If Harriet's decided she's had enough of never-ending opposition it shows what a dead loss SKS is...
    Harriet Harman is already 71 years old. 74 at the next election; almost 80 by the end of that parliament. I'd imagine we will continue to see older MPs announcing their retirements.
    She’s number 5. Must surely be a flurry of such announcements soon.

    So far:
    Alex Cunningham, Lab, Stockton North
    Harriet Harman, Lab, Camberwell and Peckham
    Margaret Hodge, Lab, Barking
    Douglas Ross, Con, Moray
    Barry Sheerman, Lab, Huddersfield
    Wondering whether Jeremy Corbyn and/or John McDonnell might be added to the list.
    At the moment Corbyn isn’t eligible to be a Labour candidate, so that point is moot.
  • Cyclefree said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    I know at least half a dozen people in Epstein’s black book. I’ve met maybe 2 dozen. The idea they are all pedos is QAnon territory

    If that is the sole basis for this “accusation” by Arcuri she is about to reap the libel law whirlwind

    What do you reckon, two-thirds? three quarters?
    As most of them are multimillionaires, and quite a few billionaires, I’d rein in any such commentary

    In fact I was slightly surprised to see that you were NOT on the list. Yet yer dad made it?

    Epstein knew where the real power lies. Lib Dems in Bedfordshire
    FWIW, I don't know who's in the 'Book', but as with you, I suspect I've met a fair number of them. Admittedly, they were all wearing masks at the party, so I couldn't be sure exactly who was who.
    Here’s the book

    https://s3.documentcloud.org/documents/1508273/jeffrey-epsteins-little-black-book-redacted.pdf

    I bet you’ve met ten or more, you might be friends with one or two, well, at least one, your dad. OK maybe none, but at least you kinda know him (your dad)

    FWIW and slightly more seriously I think the “book” is a load of old bollocks. It’s a list compiled by Epstein and Maxwell (allegedly!) of people in the USA and Europe who *might* be possible customers or punters or donors or just people they might one day hope to use. It’s a shopping list, complete with tell-tale spelling errors. Half of these people they’d never met, and never would

    That’s not to deny they did snare some big fish
    It's also *seriously* out of date. It has Rupert Soames as CEO of Misys.

    He hasn't been at Misys since 2003. And he also wasn't CEO.
    Well, yeah. The book is dated with a scribble from about 2003?

    it is a period piece, and largely bullshit at that. But that doesn’t mean it is valueless. It gives an insight into the Epstein/Maxwell?/Mossad (or whoever) operation. Their targets. Socially, financially, politically, commercially and academically influential people in NY, London and elsewhere.

    Goal? Try and get them on the Lolita Express. A free private jet flight to the Virgin Islands with Prince Andrew as a golf partner. The British Royals! Gotta be legit. Salve their anxieties. Don’t shower them with girls, yet

    Let the golf commence. Or a lunch and a lecture and some networking. All above board but plenty of booze

    In the evening, relax. Luxury food, louche music, some dancing. A very young but very pretty girl takes an interest in you. Why not? You’re a minister, mogul, top Harvard boffin, major journalist. You end up in bed. You are filmed. They show you. They have photos and videos. She, it turns out, is 17 or even 15; you, it turns out, are fucked. Epstein has you by the bollocks, and you must give him what he wants and protect him if is he in endangered by the law. In the meantime, he will supply you with more parties and more fun and more girls

    So simple, yet so effective
    There are so many questions about where his wealth kept coming from. We know he got paid a load of money from the bloke behind L Brands, which owns Victoria Secrets, there must have been loads more. He for instance granted Epstein full power of attorney over his affairs.
    Money laundering.
    Mossad
    That too. More than a hint of BCCI about him. It probably suited some authorities to have him launder money and have a hold over others.
    Jeffrey Epstein sent $30m to Ghislaine Maxwell over an eight year period. That’s some pay rate. The value of her services to the operation must have been immense. There is no way UK intelligence services and law enforcement could not have been aware of the nature of the operation Prince Andrew was tangled up in. They must have “had a word” with the Royal Household, surely?! Did he choose to simply ignore them? His arrogance exceeds his idiocy.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,121
    edited December 2021

    GIN1138 said:

    Andy_JS said:
    If Harriet's decided she's had enough of never-ending opposition it shows what a dead loss SKS is...
    Harriet Harman is already 71 years old. 74 at the next election; almost 80 by the end of that parliament. I'd imagine we will continue to see older MPs announcing their retirements.
    She’s number 5. Must surely be a flurry of such announcements soon.

    So far:
    Alex Cunningham, Lab, Stockton North
    Harriet Harman, Lab, Camberwell and Peckham
    Margaret Hodge, Lab, Barking
    Douglas Ross, Con, Moray
    Barry Sheerman, Lab, Huddersfield
    Have been holding out until after Corbyn was gone ?
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 9,164
    edited December 2021
    kamski said:

    kamski said:

    kamski said:

    Aslan said:

    Leon said:



    Well, yeah. The book is dated with a scribble from about 2003?

    it is a period piece, and largely bullshit at that. But that doesn’t mean it is valueless. It gives an insight into the Epstein/Maxwell?/Mossad (or whoever) operation. Their targets. Socially, financially, politically, commercially and academically influential people in NY, London and elsewhere.

    Goal? Try and get them on the Lolita Express. A free private jet flight to the Virgin Islands with Prince Andrew as a golf partner. The British Royals! Gotta be legit. Salve their anxieties. Don’t shower them with girls, yet

    Let the golf commence. Or a lunch and a lecture and some networking. All above board but plenty of booze

    In the evening, relax. Luxury food, louche music, some dancing. A very young but very pretty girl takes an interest in you. Why not? You’re a minister, mogul, top Harvard boffin, major journalist. You end up in bed. You are filmed. They show you. They have photos and videos. She, it turns out, is 17 or even 15; you, it turns out, are fucked. Epstein has you by the bollocks, and you must give him what he wants and protect him if is he in endangered by the law. In the meantime, he will supply you with more parties and more fun and more girls

    So simple, yet so effective

    What sort of person in their 40s or 50s doesn't feel creepy having sexual contact with someone that's 19 or 20? And that is even if they look that old. That girl in the picture with Prince Andrew is clearly a child.
    I do worry if we're in danger of a kind of collective hypocrisy here. Relations with underage people are clearly unacceptable, and this particular case is not only about age, but also exploitation and coercion.

    While many men might also not choose to act on it, for diverse moral or social reasons, when it comes to women of 20 or so, however, many men of all ages find them as attractive as they ever did.
    I think if you're in your fifties and you are having sexual contact with someone who is 20, you have to be quite narcissistic (or an utterly selfish arsehole) if you don't ask yourself what is really going on. Is it possible that this is abusive? Unless you have made totally sure that it is not abusive, don't do it.
    As mentioned below, there are some relationships even like this that work for both parties. In many cases a relationship like this might be abusive, but in some not. I do have a concern that we're moving to an era of stereotyped power relations on these sort of questions, in line with what's politically fashionable, and that can sometimes merge into a kind of authoritarianism.

    The questions you ask are definitely valid for anyone in a relationship like this to ask themselves ; but that doesn't mean a relationship like this is necessarily inherently abusive. Human beings are far more complex than that.
    I agree with you. And it feels like we are at a moment when we are collectively understanding how much abuse has been going on - let's not sweep it under the carpet
    Absolutey. But let's also not simultaneously over-proscribe legitimate relationships, out of anxiety because we've seen the extent of abuse that really has gone on.
    I wouldn't condemn anyone for being attracted to someone much younger, nor for having a relationship with a big age difference.

    But I do think we have only seen the tip of the iceberg. We collectively need to really wake up. Only this year I am hearing from people (mostly women) who were sexually abused as teenagers or younger in the seventies and eighties. Some of these people I have known for decades and I had no idea. Now I am hearing stuff because I am involved in a private group of people who have come to the point of wanting to reveal these secrets (which in itself is an interesting story but not for here), so it's not been made public. It's really shocking how widespread this stuff was. I'm hoping things have got better.

    And it takes a lot of courage for people to talk about these things, so I'm a bit oversensitive to comments of the "older men have always been attracted to young women" type, which can sometimes be used to minimise what happened and then people can be re-traumatised if they finally have the courage to reveal something and then are not taken seriously. That is just what I am seeing with people that I know.
    There is a very big difference, though, between abuse, and consensual relationships. What you're describing is terrible, and I agree that there's much abuse still to be uncovered. But I came in here because we seemed to move on from that to suggest relationships with a large age gap were always abusive, or always non-consensual.

    I think is a dangerous over-reaction as a result of the social shock of everybody people have seen, and partly the modern tendency to simplify power relationships. I do also think that it's important to stress that non-abusive attraction between people of different ages has always been there, without that in any being carte blanche for abuse. To me abusive and coercive and consensual interactions are pretty different issues, and I think we should be very careful to allow people to live their lives, in that respect.
  • The social shock of *what* everybody has seen, that should say below - apologies.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,121
    Much earlier this year, a lab experiment was done to look at how the RBD of the virus might mutate (nb the evolution was with the RBD alone, not the virus).
    https://www.nature.com/articles/s41564-021-00954-4
    … Further in vitro evolution increased binding by 1,000-fold and identified mutations that may be more infectious if they evolve in the circulating viral population, for example, Q498R is epistatic to N501Y. ..

    The binding affinity to the ACE receptor for what they came up with is orders of magnitude greater than the binding affinities of any antibodies our bodies produce to bind to the virus RBD.
    Omicron shares some of the mutations of this lab construct, which might account for its immune escape - given a great enough affinity for the ACE receptor, the RDB of the spike protein, even if bound by antibodies, might still preferentially attach to the ACE receptor.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,189

    Cyclefree said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    I know at least half a dozen people in Epstein’s black book. I’ve met maybe 2 dozen. The idea they are all pedos is QAnon territory

    If that is the sole basis for this “accusation” by Arcuri she is about to reap the libel law whirlwind

    What do you reckon, two-thirds? three quarters?
    As most of them are multimillionaires, and quite a few billionaires, I’d rein in any such commentary

    In fact I was slightly surprised to see that you were NOT on the list. Yet yer dad made it?

    Epstein knew where the real power lies. Lib Dems in Bedfordshire
    FWIW, I don't know who's in the 'Book', but as with you, I suspect I've met a fair number of them. Admittedly, they were all wearing masks at the party, so I couldn't be sure exactly who was who.
    Here’s the book

    https://s3.documentcloud.org/documents/1508273/jeffrey-epsteins-little-black-book-redacted.pdf

    I bet you’ve met ten or more, you might be friends with one or two, well, at least one, your dad. OK maybe none, but at least you kinda know him (your dad)

    FWIW and slightly more seriously I think the “book” is a load of old bollocks. It’s a list compiled by Epstein and Maxwell (allegedly!) of people in the USA and Europe who *might* be possible customers or punters or donors or just people they might one day hope to use. It’s a shopping list, complete with tell-tale spelling errors. Half of these people they’d never met, and never would

    That’s not to deny they did snare some big fish
    It's also *seriously* out of date. It has Rupert Soames as CEO of Misys.

    He hasn't been at Misys since 2003. And he also wasn't CEO.
    Well, yeah. The book is dated with a scribble from about 2003?

    it is a period piece, and largely bullshit at that. But that doesn’t mean it is valueless. It gives an insight into the Epstein/Maxwell?/Mossad (or whoever) operation. Their targets. Socially, financially, politically, commercially and academically influential people in NY, London and elsewhere.

    Goal? Try and get them on the Lolita Express. A free private jet flight to the Virgin Islands with Prince Andrew as a golf partner. The British Royals! Gotta be legit. Salve their anxieties. Don’t shower them with girls, yet

    Let the golf commence. Or a lunch and a lecture and some networking. All above board but plenty of booze

    In the evening, relax. Luxury food, louche music, some dancing. A very young but very pretty girl takes an interest in you. Why not? You’re a minister, mogul, top Harvard boffin, major journalist. You end up in bed. You are filmed. They show you. They have photos and videos. She, it turns out, is 17 or even 15; you, it turns out, are fucked. Epstein has you by the bollocks, and you must give him what he wants and protect him if is he in endangered by the law. In the meantime, he will supply you with more parties and more fun and more girls

    So simple, yet so effective
    There are so many questions about where his wealth kept coming from. We know he got paid a load of money from the bloke behind L Brands, which owns Victoria Secrets, there must have been loads more. He for instance granted Epstein full power of attorney over his affairs.
    Money laundering.
    Mossad
    That too. More than a hint of BCCI about him. It probably suited some authorities to have him launder money and have a hold over others.
    Jeffrey Epstein sent $30m to Ghislaine Maxwell over an eight year period. That’s some pay rate. The value of her services to the operation must have been immense. There is no way UK intelligence services and law enforcement could not have been aware of the nature of the operation Prince Andrew was tangled up in. They must have “had a word” with the Royal Household, surely?! Did he choose to simply ignore them? His arrogance exceeds his idiocy.
    Oh come on Stuart, who hasn't donated $30m (and a helicopter) to someone to procure under age girls?
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,667
    Andy_JS said:

    O/T

    "1st Ashes Test: Team news and key details

    Venue: The Gabba, Brisbane
    Umpires: R Tucker, P Reiffel
    TV umpire: P Wilson
    Match referee: D Boon (all officials Australia)
    Australia: MS Harris, DA Warner, M Labuschagne, SD Smith, TM Head, CD Green, AT Carey (WK), PJ Cummins (C), MA Starc, NM Lyon, JR Hazlewood
    England (possible): RJ Burns, H Hameed, DP Malan, JE Root (C), BA Stokes, JM Bairstow, JC Buttler (WK), OE Robinson, SC Broad, MJ Leach, JM Anderson

    How to watch the Ashes 1st Test
    Dates: 8-12 December
    Start time: 12am
    TV coverage: BT Sport 1 from 11.30pm GMT (on 7 Dec)
    Live stream: BT Sport website and app
    Highlights: BT Sport 1 at 8.45am and 12pm"

    https://inews.co.uk/sport/cricket/ashes-2021-how-watch-1st-test-start-time-tv-coverage-live-stream-highlights-australia-vs-england-1338259

    Not even highlights on C4?

    My 90 year old father-in-law (no internet, no PC/smartphone) will be disappointed.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,189
    Nigelb said:

    Much earlier this year, a lab experiment was done to look at how the RBD of the virus might mutate (nb the evolution was with the RBD alone, not the virus).
    https://www.nature.com/articles/s41564-021-00954-4
    … Further in vitro evolution increased binding by 1,000-fold and identified mutations that may be more infectious if they evolve in the circulating viral population, for example, Q498R is epistatic to N501Y. ..

    The binding affinity to the ACE receptor for what they came up with is orders of magnitude greater than the binding affinities of any antibodies our bodies produce to bind to the virus RBD.
    Omicron shares some of the mutations of this lab construct, which might account for its immune escape - given a great enough affinity for the ACE receptor, the RDB of the spike protein, even if bound by antibodies, might still preferentially attach to the ACE receptor.

    Well that's not concerning at all.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,121

    kamski said:

    kamski said:

    kamski said:

    Aslan said:

    Leon said:



    Well, yeah. The book is dated with a scribble from about 2003?

    it is a period piece, and largely bullshit at that. But that doesn’t mean it is valueless. It gives an insight into the Epstein/Maxwell?/Mossad (or whoever) operation. Their targets. Socially, financially, politically, commercially and academically influential people in NY, London and elsewhere.

    Goal? Try and get them on the Lolita Express. A free private jet flight to the Virgin Islands with Prince Andrew as a golf partner. The British Royals! Gotta be legit. Salve their anxieties. Don’t shower them with girls, yet

    Let the golf commence. Or a lunch and a lecture and some networking. All above board but plenty of booze

    In the evening, relax. Luxury food, louche music, some dancing. A very young but very pretty girl takes an interest in you. Why not? You’re a minister, mogul, top Harvard boffin, major journalist. You end up in bed. You are filmed. They show you. They have photos and videos. She, it turns out, is 17 or even 15; you, it turns out, are fucked. Epstein has you by the bollocks, and you must give him what he wants and protect him if is he in endangered by the law. In the meantime, he will supply you with more parties and more fun and more girls

    So simple, yet so effective

    What sort of person in their 40s or 50s doesn't feel creepy having sexual contact with someone that's 19 or 20? And that is even if they look that old. That girl in the picture with Prince Andrew is clearly a child.
    I do worry if we're in danger of a kind of collective hypocrisy here. Relations with underage people are clearly unacceptable, and this particular case is not only about age, but also exploitation and coercion.

    While many men might also not choose to act on it, for diverse moral or social reasons, when it comes to women of 20 or so, however, many men of all ages find them as attractive as they ever did.
    I think if you're in your fifties and you are having sexual contact with someone who is 20, you have to be quite narcissistic (or an utterly selfish arsehole) if you don't ask yourself what is really going on. Is it possible that this is abusive? Unless you have made totally sure that it is not abusive, don't do it.
    As mentioned below, there are some relationships even like this that work for both parties. In many cases a relationship like this might be abusive, but in some not. I do have a concern that we're moving to an era of stereotyped power relations on these sort of questions, in line with what's politically fashionable, and that can sometimes merge into a kind of authoritarianism.

    The questions you ask are definitely valid for anyone in a relationship like this to ask themselves ; but that doesn't mean a relationship like this is necessarily inherently abusive. Human beings are far more complex than that.
    I agree with you. And it feels like we are at a moment when we are collectively understanding how much abuse has been going on - let's not sweep it under the carpet
    Absolutey. But let's also not simultaneously over-proscribe legitimate relationships, out of anxiety because we've seen the extent of abuse that really has gone on.
    I wouldn't condemn anyone for being attracted to someone much younger, nor for having a relationship with a big age difference.

    But I do think we have only seen the tip of the iceberg. We collectively need to really wake up. Only this year I am hearing from people (mostly women) who were sexually abused as teenagers or younger in the seventies and eighties. Some of these people I have known for decades and I had no idea. Now I am hearing stuff because I am involved in a private group of people who have come to the point of wanting to reveal these secrets (which in itself is an interesting story but not for here), so it's not been made public. It's really shocking how widespread this stuff was. I'm hoping things have got better.

    And it takes a lot of courage for people to talk about these things, so I'm a bit oversensitive to comments of the "older men have always been attracted to young women" type, which can sometimes be used to minimise what happened and then people can be re-traumatised if they finally have the courage to reveal something and then are not taken seriously. That is just what I am seeing with people that I know.
    There is a very big difference, though, between abuse, and consensual relationships. What you're describing is terrible, and I agree that there's much abuse still to be uncovered. But I came in here because we seemed to move on from that to suggest relationships with a large age gap were always abusive, or always non-consensual.

    I think is a dangerous over-reaction as a result of the social shock of everybody people have seen, and partly the modern tendency to simplify power relationships. I do also think that it's important to stress that non-abusive attraction between people of different ages has always been there, without that in any being carte blanche for abuse. To me abusive and coercive and consensual interactions are pretty different issues, and I think we should be very careful to allow people to live their lives, in that respect.
    I’m not sure that you and Kamski are disagreeing ?
    I’ve sympathy with both your points, but I’m also not convinced that the line between such relationships being coercive or non coercive is quite as bright as you seem to imply.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,465
    Boris isn’t going to benefit if workers get below inflation pay rises. That wasn’t the promise.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,121
    edited December 2021
    rcs1000 said:

    Nigelb said:

    Much earlier this year, a lab experiment was done to look at how the RBD of the virus might mutate (nb the evolution was with the RBD alone, not the virus).
    https://www.nature.com/articles/s41564-021-00954-4
    … Further in vitro evolution increased binding by 1,000-fold and identified mutations that may be more infectious if they evolve in the circulating viral population, for example, Q498R is epistatic to N501Y. ..

    The binding affinity to the ACE receptor for what they came up with is orders of magnitude greater than the binding affinities of any antibodies our bodies produce to bind to the virus RBD.
    Omicron shares some of the mutations of this lab construct, which might account for its immune escape - given a great enough affinity for the ACE receptor, the RDB of the spike protein, even if bound by antibodies, might still preferentially attach to the ACE receptor.

    Well that's not concerning at all.
    It is, a bit.
    Though as we rightly keep reassuring ourselves, the immune system isn’t just antibodies.
    There’s also this from the paper, which suggests possibilities for new treatments:
    … We show that our high-affinity variant RBD-62 can be used as a drug to inhibit infection with SARS-CoV-2 and variants Alpha, Beta and Gamma in vitro. In a model of SARS-CoV-2 challenge in hamster, RBD-62 significantly reduced clinical disease when administered before or after infection..

    Covid is a particularly nasty bug, though, and has evolved a great deal quicker than many originally expected. And it will still be a week or two until we have a really good idea of how serious (or not) Omicron might be.

    Still, something for @Leon to ponder on his trip.
  • Good morning, everyone.

    Weather: cold again this morning. We should burn more coal to get that Mediterranean climate we were promised. The one with no snow ever again.

    F1: Ladbrokes has Hamilton as 1.4 for the title. The combination of Hamilton+Mercedes has been notably faster than Verstappen+Red Bull at the last set of races, the only slight exception (which never happened due to a crash) being the qualifying of Saudi Arabia. I don't like short odds bets but those odds are probably generous, and Betfair might be longer.

    If Hamilton finishes without a collision, he should take the title.
  • R4 going big on the Foreign Office failure over the Afghanistan bungled evacuation and Raab in particular.
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 9,164
    edited December 2021
    Nigelb said:

    kamski said:

    kamski said:

    kamski said:

    Aslan said:

    Leon said:



    Well, yeah. The book is dated with a scribble from about 2003?

    it is a period piece, and largely bullshit at that. But that doesn’t mean it is valueless. It gives an insight into the Epstein/Maxwell?/Mossad (or whoever) operation. Their targets. Socially, financially, politically, commercially and academically influential people in NY, London and elsewhere.

    Goal? Try and get them on the Lolita Express. A free private jet flight to the Virgin Islands with Prince Andrew as a golf partner. The British Royals! Gotta be legit. Salve their anxieties. Don’t shower them with girls, yet

    Let the golf commence. Or a lunch and a lecture and some networking. All above board but plenty of booze

    In the evening, relax. Luxury food, louche music, some dancing. A very young but very pretty girl takes an interest in you. Why not? You’re a minister, mogul, top Harvard boffin, major journalist. You end up in bed. You are filmed. They show you. They have photos and videos. She, it turns out, is 17 or even 15; you, it turns out, are fucked. Epstein has you by the bollocks, and you must give him what he wants and protect him if is he in endangered by the law. In the meantime, he will supply you with more parties and more fun and more girls

    So simple, yet so effective

    What sort of person in their 40s or 50s doesn't feel creepy having sexual contact with someone that's 19 or 20? And that is even if they look that old. That girl in the picture with Prince Andrew is clearly a child.
    I do worry if we're in danger of a kind of collective hypocrisy here. Relations with underage people are clearly unacceptable, and this particular case is not only about age, but also exploitation and coercion.

    While many men might also not choose to act on it, for diverse moral or social reasons, when it comes to women of 20 or so, however, many men of all ages find them as attractive as they ever did.
    I think if you're in your fifties and you are having sexual contact with someone who is 20, you have to be quite narcissistic (or an utterly selfish arsehole) if you don't ask yourself what is really going on. Is it possible that this is abusive? Unless you have made totally sure that it is not abusive, don't do it.
    As mentioned below, there are some relationships even like this that work for both parties. In many cases a relationship like this might be abusive, but in some not. I do have a concern that we're moving to an era of stereotyped power relations on these sort of questions, in line with what's politically fashionable, and that can sometimes merge into a kind of authoritarianism.

    The questions you ask are definitely valid for anyone in a relationship like this to ask themselves ; but that doesn't mean a relationship like this is necessarily inherently abusive. Human beings are far more complex than that.
    I agree with you. And it feels like we are at a moment when we are collectively understanding how much abuse has been going on - let's not sweep it under the carpet
    Absolutey. But let's also not simultaneously over-proscribe legitimate relationships, out of anxiety because we've seen the extent of abuse that really has gone on.
    I wouldn't condemn anyone for being attracted to someone much younger, nor for having a relationship with a big age difference.

    But I do think we have only seen the tip of the iceberg. We collectively need to really wake up. Only this year I am hearing from people (mostly women) who were sexually abused as teenagers or younger in the seventies and eighties. Some of these people I have known for decades and I had no idea. Now I am hearing stuff because I am involved in a private group of people who have come to the point of wanting to reveal these secrets (which in itself is an interesting story but not for here), so it's not been made public. It's really shocking how widespread this stuff was. I'm hoping things have got better.

    And it takes a lot of courage for people to talk about these things, so I'm a bit oversensitive to comments of the "older men have always been attracted to young women" type, which can sometimes be used to minimise what happened and then people can be re-traumatised if they finally have the courage to reveal something and then are not taken seriously. That is just what I am seeing with people that I know.
    There is a very big difference, though, between abuse, and consensual relationships. What you're describing is terrible, and I agree that there's much abuse still to be uncovered. But I came in here because we seemed to move on from that to suggest relationships with a large age gap were always abusive, or always non-consensual.

    I think is a dangerous over-reaction as a result of the social shock of everybody people have seen, and partly the modern tendency to simplify power relationships. I do also think that it's important to stress that non-abusive attraction between people of different ages has always been there, without that in any being carte blanche for abuse. To me abusive and coercive and consensual interactions are pretty different issues, and I think we should be very careful to allow people to live their lives, in that respect.
    I’m not sure that you and Kamski are disagreeing ?
    I’ve sympathy with both your points, but I’m also not convinced that the line between such relationships being coercive or non coercive is quite as bright as you seem to imply.
    In a certain way, this is where I agree with Kamski's point that as a starting-point people should ask *themselves* and examine themselves as to whether these kind of consenting relationships between adults are in any way abusive. What worries me is a situation where we pre-judge these relationships too simplistically at a social level, and where stereotypes of power, that are becoming somewhat of an issue in our society, get in the way of understanding what is often the enormous complexity of human relationships.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,209
    edited December 2021

    RobD said:

    Farooq said:

    Have just read the Neill / Arcuri spat on twitter.

    Wow...

    It certainly cheered me up. I don't care which of them goes down in flames. Perhaps both? It's fantastic sport either way.
    I see what you mean, but the worry is that IF the accusation is true, there are some real victims out there. Whatever the facts, such serious criminal accusations *must* be investigated. Even if they were “in the past” (copyright Twat Raab).
    It's a serious accusation?
    His presence on a passenger manifest is proof of paedophilia according to Acuri....

    A reminder of one who libelled and lost:

    https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/dr-christian-jessenraises-less-than-10k-of-150k-legal-bill-for-libeling-arlene-foster-40565917.html
    Plus she linked it to the Private Eye picture, and is relying on whataboutery as her defence.

    I'd say relevant previous actions are Sally Bercow, Katie Holmes and perhaps the live one involving Rachael Riley and Mike Sivier. Sally Bercow and Arcuri both had about 50k Twitter followers at the time.

    Also obvs there is precedent for serving papers via twitter.

    I may not be up to date on defamation law, but I think the required elements are publication to a third party, and defamatory content either actual or implied.

    Looks potentially expensive.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,750
    Nigelb said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Nigelb said:

    Much earlier this year, a lab experiment was done to look at how the RBD of the virus might mutate (nb the evolution was with the RBD alone, not the virus).
    https://www.nature.com/articles/s41564-021-00954-4
    … Further in vitro evolution increased binding by 1,000-fold and identified mutations that may be more infectious if they evolve in the circulating viral population, for example, Q498R is epistatic to N501Y. ..

    The binding affinity to the ACE receptor for what they came up with is orders of magnitude greater than the binding affinities of any antibodies our bodies produce to bind to the virus RBD.
    Omicron shares some of the mutations of this lab construct, which might account for its immune escape - given a great enough affinity for the ACE receptor, the RDB of the spike protein, even if bound by antibodies, might still preferentially attach to the ACE receptor.

    Well that's not concerning at all.
    It is, a bit.
    Though as we rightly keep reassuring ourselves, the immune system isn’t just antibodies.
    There’s also this from the paper, which suggests possibilities for new treatments:
    … We show that our high-affinity variant RBD-62 can be used as a drug to inhibit infection with SARS-CoV-2 and variants Alpha, Beta and Gamma in vitro. In a model of SARS-CoV-2 challenge in hamster, RBD-62 significantly reduced clinical disease when administered before or after infection..

    Covid is a particularly nasty bug, though, and has evolved a great deal quicker than many originally expected. And it will still be a week or two until we have a really good idea of how serious (or not) Omicron might be.

    Still, something for @Leon to ponder on his trip.
    Francois Balloux, interviewed by Sky, thinks the daily infection rate for Omicron in the UK is probably already 500-1000.
    https://news.sky.com/story/covid-19-omicron-causing-up-to-1-000-infections-a-day-many-more-than-official-figures-suggest-leading-scientist-says-12488640

    He also states what should be obvious to everyone (but inexplicably still doesn't seem to be):
    Prof Balloux added: "The real issue is the very large number of cases.
    "Even if they are generally mild it translates into a large number of hospitalisations and severe disease.
    "It is a numbers game. The issue is the proportion of people who are unwell and these numbers can rapidly become quite daunting."
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,912
    edited December 2021

    Cyclefree said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    I know at least half a dozen people in Epstein’s black book. I’ve met maybe 2 dozen. The idea they are all pedos is QAnon territory

    If that is the sole basis for this “accusation” by Arcuri she is about to reap the libel law whirlwind

    What do you reckon, two-thirds? three quarters?
    As most of them are multimillionaires, and quite a few billionaires, I’d rein in any such commentary

    In fact I was slightly surprised to see that you were NOT on the list. Yet yer dad made it?

    Epstein knew where the real power lies. Lib Dems in Bedfordshire
    FWIW, I don't know who's in the 'Book', but as with you, I suspect I've met a fair number of them. Admittedly, they were all wearing masks at the party, so I couldn't be sure exactly who was who.
    Here’s the book

    https://s3.documentcloud.org/documents/1508273/jeffrey-epsteins-little-black-book-redacted.pdf

    I bet you’ve met ten or more, you might be friends with one or two, well, at least one, your dad. OK maybe none, but at least you kinda know him (your dad)

    FWIW and slightly more seriously I think the “book” is a load of old bollocks. It’s a list compiled by Epstein and Maxwell (allegedly!) of people in the USA and Europe who *might* be possible customers or punters or donors or just people they might one day hope to use. It’s a shopping list, complete with tell-tale spelling errors. Half of these people they’d never met, and never would

    That’s not to deny they did snare some big fish
    It's also *seriously* out of date. It has Rupert Soames as CEO of Misys.

    He hasn't been at Misys since 2003. And he also wasn't CEO.
    Well, yeah. The book is dated with a scribble from about 2003?

    it is a period piece, and largely bullshit at that. But that doesn’t mean it is valueless. It gives an insight into the Epstein/Maxwell?/Mossad (or whoever) operation. Their targets. Socially, financially, politically, commercially and academically influential people in NY, London and elsewhere.

    Goal? Try and get them on the Lolita Express. A free private jet flight to the Virgin Islands with Prince Andrew as a golf partner. The British Royals! Gotta be legit. Salve their anxieties. Don’t shower them with girls, yet

    Let the golf commence. Or a lunch and a lecture and some networking. All above board but plenty of booze

    In the evening, relax. Luxury food, louche music, some dancing. A very young but very pretty girl takes an interest in you. Why not? You’re a minister, mogul, top Harvard boffin, major journalist. You end up in bed. You are filmed. They show you. They have photos and videos. She, it turns out, is 17 or even 15; you, it turns out, are fucked. Epstein has you by the bollocks, and you must give him what he wants and protect him if is he in endangered by the law. In the meantime, he will supply you with more parties and more fun and more girls

    So simple, yet so effective
    There are so many questions about where his wealth kept coming from. We know he got paid a load of money from the bloke behind L Brands, which owns Victoria Secrets, there must have been loads more. He for instance granted Epstein full power of attorney over his affairs.
    Money laundering.
    Mossad
    That too. More than a hint of BCCI about him. It probably suited some authorities to have him launder money and have a hold over others.
    Jeffrey Epstein sent $30m to Ghislaine Maxwell over an eight year period. That’s some pay rate. The value of her services to the operation must have been immense. There is no way UK intelligence services and law enforcement could not have been aware of the nature of the operation Prince Andrew was tangled up in. They must have “had a word” with the Royal Household, surely?! Did he choose to simply ignore them? His arrogance exceeds his idiocy.
    Andrew's arrogance perhaps, but are we talking about the same intelligence services who let Jimmy Savile hang around Mrs Thatcher? Omniscient isn't the word.
  • MattW said:

    RobD said:

    Farooq said:

    Have just read the Neill / Arcuri spat on twitter.

    Wow...

    It certainly cheered me up. I don't care which of them goes down in flames. Perhaps both? It's fantastic sport either way.
    I see what you mean, but the worry is that IF the accusation is true, there are some real victims out there. Whatever the facts, such serious criminal accusations *must* be investigated. Even if they were “in the past” (copyright Twat Raab).
    It's a serious accusation?
    His presence on a passenger manifest is proof of paedophilia according to Acuri....

    A reminder of one who libelled and lost:

    https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/dr-christian-jessenraises-less-than-10k-of-150k-legal-bill-for-libeling-arlene-foster-40565917.html
    Plus she linked it to the Private Eye picture, and is relying on whataboutery as her defence.

    I'd say relevant previous actions are Sally Bercow, Katie Holmes and perhaps the live one involving Rachael Riley and Mike Sivier.

    Looks potentially expensive.
    Exactly. She was 35 I was 45. Anyone have a problem with that?

    https://twitter.com/afneil/status/1467997651211800580?s=20
  • pigeonpigeon Posts: 4,839

    Boris isn’t going to benefit if workers get below inflation pay rises. That wasn’t the promise.

    2022 is going to be replete with cases of scalper bosses, who have yet to catch up with the new economic realities, offering yet another shit pay deal to their staff, and watching them either walk or go on strike.

    Good. A hefty chunk of redistribution from shareholders to workers is way overdue.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,121
    .
    Chris said:

    Nigelb said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Nigelb said:

    Much earlier this year, a lab experiment was done to look at how the RBD of the virus might mutate (nb the evolution was with the RBD alone, not the virus).
    https://www.nature.com/articles/s41564-021-00954-4
    … Further in vitro evolution increased binding by 1,000-fold and identified mutations that may be more infectious if they evolve in the circulating viral population, for example, Q498R is epistatic to N501Y. ..

    The binding affinity to the ACE receptor for what they came up with is orders of magnitude greater than the binding affinities of any antibodies our bodies produce to bind to the virus RBD.
    Omicron shares some of the mutations of this lab construct, which might account for its immune escape - given a great enough affinity for the ACE receptor, the RDB of the spike protein, even if bound by antibodies, might still preferentially attach to the ACE receptor.

    Well that's not concerning at all.
    It is, a bit.
    Though as we rightly keep reassuring ourselves, the immune system isn’t just antibodies.
    There’s also this from the paper, which suggests possibilities for new treatments:
    … We show that our high-affinity variant RBD-62 can be used as a drug to inhibit infection with SARS-CoV-2 and variants Alpha, Beta and Gamma in vitro. In a model of SARS-CoV-2 challenge in hamster, RBD-62 significantly reduced clinical disease when administered before or after infection..

    Covid is a particularly nasty bug, though, and has evolved a great deal quicker than many originally expected. And it will still be a week or two until we have a really good idea of how serious (or not) Omicron might be.

    Still, something for @Leon to ponder on his trip.
    Francois Balloux, interviewed by Sky, thinks the daily infection rate for Omicron in the UK is probably already 500-1000.
    https://news.sky.com/story/covid-19-omicron-causing-up-to-1-000-infections-a-day-many-more-than-official-figures-suggest-leading-scientist-says-12488640

    He also states what should be obvious to everyone (but inexplicably still doesn't seem to be):
    Prof Balloux added: "The real issue is the very large number of cases.
    "Even if they are generally mild it translates into a large number of hospitalisations and severe disease.
    "It is a numbers game. The issue is the proportion of people who are unwell and these numbers can rapidly become quite daunting."
    There’s some suggestion that the doubling time for infections is around four days.
    Again, will be very much clearer in a couple of weeks’s time.

    I’m still not assuming (though I very much hope) that it proves to be mild.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,209

    R4 going big on the Foreign Office failure over the Afghanistan bungled evacuation and Raab in particular.

    Listening to the account, it sounds like a someone who only saw a small part of the process from a junior level.

    We need the overall report, and to filter out anything ignoring the context.
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,164

    kamski said:

    kamski said:

    kamski said:

    Aslan said:

    Leon said:



    Well, yeah. The book is dated with a scribble from about 2003?

    it is a period piece, and largely bullshit at that. But that doesn’t mean it is valueless. It gives an insight into the Epstein/Maxwell?/Mossad (or whoever) operation. Their targets. Socially, financially, politically, commercially and academically influential people in NY, London and elsewhere.

    Goal? Try and get them on the Lolita Express. A free private jet flight to the Virgin Islands with Prince Andrew as a golf partner. The British Royals! Gotta be legit. Salve their anxieties. Don’t shower them with girls, yet

    Let the golf commence. Or a lunch and a lecture and some networking. All above board but plenty of booze

    In the evening, relax. Luxury food, louche music, some dancing. A very young but very pretty girl takes an interest in you. Why not? You’re a minister, mogul, top Harvard boffin, major journalist. You end up in bed. You are filmed. They show you. They have photos and videos. She, it turns out, is 17 or even 15; you, it turns out, are fucked. Epstein has you by the bollocks, and you must give him what he wants and protect him if is he in endangered by the law. In the meantime, he will supply you with more parties and more fun and more girls

    So simple, yet so effective

    What sort of person in their 40s or 50s doesn't feel creepy having sexual contact with someone that's 19 or 20? And that is even if they look that old. That girl in the picture with Prince Andrew is clearly a child.
    I do worry if we're in danger of a kind of collective hypocrisy here. Relations with underage people are clearly unacceptable, and this particular case is not only about age, but also exploitation and coercion.

    While many men might also not choose to act on it, for diverse moral or social reasons, when it comes to women of 20 or so, however, many men of all ages find them as attractive as they ever did.
    I think if you're in your fifties and you are having sexual contact with someone who is 20, you have to be quite narcissistic (or an utterly selfish arsehole) if you don't ask yourself what is really going on. Is it possible that this is abusive? Unless you have made totally sure that it is not abusive, don't do it.
    As mentioned below, there are some relationships even like this that work for both parties. In many cases a relationship like this might be abusive, but in some not. I do have a concern that we're moving to an era of stereotyped power relations on these sort of questions, in line with what's politically fashionable, and that can sometimes merge into a kind of authoritarianism.

    The questions you ask are definitely valid for anyone in a relationship like this to ask themselves ; but that doesn't mean a relationship like this is necessarily inherently abusive. Human beings are far more complex than that.
    I agree with you. And it feels like we are at a moment when we are collectively understanding how much abuse has been going on - let's not sweep it under the carpet
    Absolutey. But let's also not simultaneously over-proscribe legitimate relationships, out of anxiety because we've seen the extent of abuse that really has gone on.
    I wouldn't condemn anyone for being attracted to someone much younger, nor for having a relationship with a big age difference.

    But I do think we have only seen the tip of the iceberg. We collectively need to really wake up. Only this year I am hearing from people (mostly women) who were sexually abused as teenagers or younger in the seventies and eighties. Some of these people I have known for decades and I had no idea. Now I am hearing stuff because I am involved in a private group of people who have come to the point of wanting to reveal these secrets (which in itself is an interesting story but not for here), so it's not been made public. It's really shocking how widespread this stuff was. I'm hoping things have got better.

    And it takes a lot of courage for people to talk about these things, so I'm a bit oversensitive to comments of the "older men have always been attracted to young women" type, which can sometimes be used to minimise what happened and then people can be re-traumatised if they finally have the courage to reveal something and then are not taken seriously. That is just what I am seeing with people that I know.
    There is a very big difference, though, between abuse, and consensual relationships. What you're describing is terrible, and I agree that there's much abuse still to be uncovered. But I came in here because we seemed to move on from that to suggest relationships with a large age gap were always abusive, or always non-consensual.

    I think is a dangerous over-reaction as a result of the social shock of everybody people have seen, and partly the modern tendency to simplify power relationships. I do also think that it's important to stress that non-abusive attraction between people of different ages has always been there, without that in any being carte blanche for abuse. To me abusive and coercive and consensual interactions are pretty different issues, and I think we should be very careful to allow people to live their lives, in that respect.
    Sadly it is also the case that not all claims of abuse are genuine - for a whole host of reasons ranging from clouded memories to a number of less endearing ones. I also do vividly recall being attracted to much older men in my youth. No doubt I could have been exploited but I really don't think that's the way it was.
  • StockyStocky Posts: 10,219
    edited December 2021
    Andy_JS said:

    Leon said:

    Pagel speculating that we could have 90k cases a day by xmas.

    With omicron and no more mitigation I reckon that’s just about probable, not possible. It is also meaningless, we don’t yet know the severity
    336 people are known to have omicron in the UK. None of them are in hospital.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2021/dec/06/uk-covid-live-boris-johnson-no-10-christmas-party-lockdown-rules-kit-malthouse-latest-updates-
    May is right. Thank goodness we have at least some backbenchers scrutinising the government.

    Of the 336 known cases Javid says none are in hospital "as far as he knows". Goodness - he doesn't know? This is a vital piece of information. He should be all over this. If we have 336 cases and none are in hospital this should be headline news this morning.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,420
    Stocky said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Leon said:

    Pagel speculating that we could have 90k cases a day by xmas.

    With omicron and no more mitigation I reckon that’s just about probable, not possible. It is also meaningless, we don’t yet know the severity
    336 people are known to have omicron in the UK. None of them are in hospital.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2021/dec/06/uk-covid-live-boris-johnson-no-10-christmas-party-lockdown-rules-kit-malthouse-latest-updates-
    May is right. Thank goodness we has at least some backbenchers scrutinising the government.

    Of the 336 known cases Javid says none are in hospital "as far as he knows". Goodness - he doesn't know? This is a vital piece of information. He should be all over this. If we have 336 cases and none are in hospital this should be headline news this morning.
    What, good news across the headlines? Don't be silly. Bad news written by semi-literate barely coherent imbeciles is what sells papers.
  • Andy_JS said:

    Omnium said:

    World Chess Champion Magnus Carlsen is put to the test by English Grandmaster David Howell! How many games can he recognise?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eC1BAcOzHyY

    It is remarkable how soon Carlsen recognises some boards, and as for the Harry Potter game...
    Chess - I think every chess player knows that a computer could and will beat him.

    Go - I love the fact that we still have skin in the game.

    New game - Someone needs to invent a game that AI's can't reliably win at.
    Computers have been able to beat the best human chess player since 1997.
    Which in a way is comforting as players like Magnus Carlson seem invincible yet there is clearly room for human improvement to advance the game .
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,593
    ydoethur said:

    Andy_JS said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Andy_JS said:
    If Harriet's decided she's had enough of never-ending opposition it shows what a dead loss SKS is...
    Harriet Harman is already 71 years old. 74 at the next election; almost 80 by the end of that parliament. I'd imagine we will continue to see older MPs announcing their retirements.
    She’s number 5. Must surely be a flurry of such announcements soon.

    So far:
    Alex Cunningham, Lab, Stockton North
    Harriet Harman, Lab, Camberwell and Peckham
    Margaret Hodge, Lab, Barking
    Douglas Ross, Con, Moray
    Barry Sheerman, Lab, Huddersfield
    Wondering whether Jeremy Corbyn and/or John McDonnell might be added to the list.
    At the moment Corbyn isn’t eligible to be a Labour candidate, so that point is moot.
    Presumably there’s going to be an almighty row in the Islington Labour Party at some point, as they demand the right to re-select JC as their candidate?
  • Omnium said:

    Neil Henderson
    @hendopolis
    EXPRESS: Bank of England warns price rises will bite even harder #TomorrowsPapersToday

    ===

    Narrator: Only a few weeks/months ago the BoE was saying all this was transitory and nothing to see here guv.

    Why have the Express printed a believable and downbeat headline? Are they well?
    Serious questions actually.

    My Brother is moaning already people working for him will be demanding more wages because of the inflationbut they can’t have it he reckons as it’s predicted to only be a little post Covid blip.

    Surely it’s the Responsibility of the Labour Party to tell their paymaster unions to have wage restraint and not to put more fuel on inflation bonfire he said.

    But if workers get inflation pay rises to avoid real terms pay cut will it actually going to make inflation that much worse do you know?

    I told him central plank of his conservative government policy is high wage economy for everyone - so they are in no position at all to call for wage restraint 🤺
    Really the Tory policy is pay as little as you can to maximum effect. It sounds horrible, but it finishes up with us all doing quite well.

    Vote Tory, because then you'll be obliged to work harder. That's really the message. (And I think the right one)
    I think Boris has changed Conservatives to high wage economy now?

    Is my brother right to only pay his workers half of current inflation because it’s only going to be a blip the right thing, or really will it have no harm to business and the economy if workers get inflation and a bit deals because everything or most things all go up at once including what businesses charge?

    He hung up saying oh right, see you at Christmas, bye but I can always face him back tomorrow :)
    If your brother has a dilusion that he is somehow helping the country (and therefore being virtuous) about not awarding an inflation increase then he needs to think again. He is doing it because he is too scrooge like and has found an excuse beyond that. Anybody not paying at least the inflation rate to staff when they can is being mean and hopefully the staff will walk and he can spend hours and loads on recruitment fees as a lesson
  • rcs1000 said:

    Cyclefree said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    I know at least half a dozen people in Epstein’s black book. I’ve met maybe 2 dozen. The idea they are all pedos is QAnon territory

    If that is the sole basis for this “accusation” by Arcuri she is about to reap the libel law whirlwind

    What do you reckon, two-thirds? three quarters?
    As most of them are multimillionaires, and quite a few billionaires, I’d rein in any such commentary

    In fact I was slightly surprised to see that you were NOT on the list. Yet yer dad made it?

    Epstein knew where the real power lies. Lib Dems in Bedfordshire
    FWIW, I don't know who's in the 'Book', but as with you, I suspect I've met a fair number of them. Admittedly, they were all wearing masks at the party, so I couldn't be sure exactly who was who.
    Here’s the book

    https://s3.documentcloud.org/documents/1508273/jeffrey-epsteins-little-black-book-redacted.pdf

    I bet you’ve met ten or more, you might be friends with one or two, well, at least one, your dad. OK maybe none, but at least you kinda know him (your dad)

    FWIW and slightly more seriously I think the “book” is a load of old bollocks. It’s a list compiled by Epstein and Maxwell (allegedly!) of people in the USA and Europe who *might* be possible customers or punters or donors or just people they might one day hope to use. It’s a shopping list, complete with tell-tale spelling errors. Half of these people they’d never met, and never would

    That’s not to deny they did snare some big fish
    It's also *seriously* out of date. It has Rupert Soames as CEO of Misys.

    He hasn't been at Misys since 2003. And he also wasn't CEO.
    Well, yeah. The book is dated with a scribble from about 2003?

    it is a period piece, and largely bullshit at that. But that doesn’t mean it is valueless. It gives an insight into the Epstein/Maxwell?/Mossad (or whoever) operation. Their targets. Socially, financially, politically, commercially and academically influential people in NY, London and elsewhere.

    Goal? Try and get them on the Lolita Express. A free private jet flight to the Virgin Islands with Prince Andrew as a golf partner. The British Royals! Gotta be legit. Salve their anxieties. Don’t shower them with girls, yet

    Let the golf commence. Or a lunch and a lecture and some networking. All above board but plenty of booze

    In the evening, relax. Luxury food, louche music, some dancing. A very young but very pretty girl takes an interest in you. Why not? You’re a minister, mogul, top Harvard boffin, major journalist. You end up in bed. You are filmed. They show you. They have photos and videos. She, it turns out, is 17 or even 15; you, it turns out, are fucked. Epstein has you by the bollocks, and you must give him what he wants and protect him if is he in endangered by the law. In the meantime, he will supply you with more parties and more fun and more girls

    So simple, yet so effective
    There are so many questions about where his wealth kept coming from. We know he got paid a load of money from the bloke behind L Brands, which owns Victoria Secrets, there must have been loads more. He for instance granted Epstein full power of attorney over his affairs.
    Money laundering.
    Mossad
    That too. More than a hint of BCCI about him. It probably suited some authorities to have him launder money and have a hold over others.
    Jeffrey Epstein sent $30m to Ghislaine Maxwell over an eight year period. That’s some pay rate. The value of her services to the operation must have been immense. There is no way UK intelligence services and law enforcement could not have been aware of the nature of the operation Prince Andrew was tangled up in. They must have “had a word” with the Royal Household, surely?! Did he choose to simply ignore them? His arrogance exceeds his idiocy.
    Oh come on Stuart, who hasn't donated $30m (and a helicopter) to someone to procure under age girls?
    ”Underage girls” is perhaps a poor choice of words.

    https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/ghislaine-maxwell-trial-phrase-girls-victims-epstein-b1970670.html
  • eekeek Posts: 28,381
    dixiedean said:

    Omnium said:

    World Chess Champion Magnus Carlsen is put to the test by English Grandmaster David Howell! How many games can he recognise?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eC1BAcOzHyY

    It is remarkable how soon Carlsen recognises some boards, and as for the Harry Potter game...
    Chess - I think every chess player knows that a computer could and will beat him.

    Go - I love the fact that we still have skin in the game.

    New game - Someone needs to invent a game that AI's can't reliably win at.
    Alpha Go will beat any human.
    The difference with chess is we haven't yet fully figured out how or why. Since Go is a googol more complex than chess, any particular move made by AI can't really be understood except in relation to all the other moves in that game. Nor can they be replicated (as there are more combinations than atoms in the Universe, so unlike chess, no two games can be similar beyond the very first few moves).
    We know. It plays brutally aggressively. Seeking out fights, and rarely allowing the opponent territory in order to take some itself.
    It covers multiple areas of the board at once. Humans tended to contest an area till it was settled then move on. It doesn't.
    It places a much higher value on the centre than we ever did. We tended to take corners, sides, then fight over the middle. It doesn't always.
    So. We can't beat it. But we still don't fully comprehend why not.
    AIUI.
    Therefore it hasn't quite "solved" the game yet.
    If only it could speak to teach...
    I suspect that because it doesn't concentrate on a single area at a time human beings (who concentrate on one area at a time) can't see the complete picture.
  • NerysHughesNerysHughes Posts: 3,375
    Stocky said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Leon said:

    Pagel speculating that we could have 90k cases a day by xmas.

    With omicron and no more mitigation I reckon that’s just about probable, not possible. It is also meaningless, we don’t yet know the severity
    336 people are known to have omicron in the UK. None of them are in hospital.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2021/dec/06/uk-covid-live-boris-johnson-no-10-christmas-party-lockdown-rules-kit-malthouse-latest-updates-
    May is right. Thank goodness we have at least some backbenchers scrutinising the government.

    Of the 336 known cases Javid says none are in hospital "as far as he knows". Goodness - he doesn't know? This is a vital piece of information. He should be all over this. If we have 336 cases and none are in hospital this should be headline news this morning.
    Within 2 weeks the borders will be open as they will realise it will be far better if Omicron takes over from Delta.
  • Boris isn’t going to benefit if workers get below inflation pay rises. That wasn’t the promise.

    Yeah but the pensioners will be okay thanks to the triple lock and that's all that counts.
  • StockyStocky Posts: 10,219

    rcs1000 said:

    Cyclefree said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    I know at least half a dozen people in Epstein’s black book. I’ve met maybe 2 dozen. The idea they are all pedos is QAnon territory

    If that is the sole basis for this “accusation” by Arcuri she is about to reap the libel law whirlwind

    What do you reckon, two-thirds? three quarters?
    As most of them are multimillionaires, and quite a few billionaires, I’d rein in any such commentary

    In fact I was slightly surprised to see that you were NOT on the list. Yet yer dad made it?

    Epstein knew where the real power lies. Lib Dems in Bedfordshire
    FWIW, I don't know who's in the 'Book', but as with you, I suspect I've met a fair number of them. Admittedly, they were all wearing masks at the party, so I couldn't be sure exactly who was who.
    Here’s the book

    https://s3.documentcloud.org/documents/1508273/jeffrey-epsteins-little-black-book-redacted.pdf

    I bet you’ve met ten or more, you might be friends with one or two, well, at least one, your dad. OK maybe none, but at least you kinda know him (your dad)

    FWIW and slightly more seriously I think the “book” is a load of old bollocks. It’s a list compiled by Epstein and Maxwell (allegedly!) of people in the USA and Europe who *might* be possible customers or punters or donors or just people they might one day hope to use. It’s a shopping list, complete with tell-tale spelling errors. Half of these people they’d never met, and never would

    That’s not to deny they did snare some big fish
    It's also *seriously* out of date. It has Rupert Soames as CEO of Misys.

    He hasn't been at Misys since 2003. And he also wasn't CEO.
    Well, yeah. The book is dated with a scribble from about 2003?

    it is a period piece, and largely bullshit at that. But that doesn’t mean it is valueless. It gives an insight into the Epstein/Maxwell?/Mossad (or whoever) operation. Their targets. Socially, financially, politically, commercially and academically influential people in NY, London and elsewhere.

    Goal? Try and get them on the Lolita Express. A free private jet flight to the Virgin Islands with Prince Andrew as a golf partner. The British Royals! Gotta be legit. Salve their anxieties. Don’t shower them with girls, yet

    Let the golf commence. Or a lunch and a lecture and some networking. All above board but plenty of booze

    In the evening, relax. Luxury food, louche music, some dancing. A very young but very pretty girl takes an interest in you. Why not? You’re a minister, mogul, top Harvard boffin, major journalist. You end up in bed. You are filmed. They show you. They have photos and videos. She, it turns out, is 17 or even 15; you, it turns out, are fucked. Epstein has you by the bollocks, and you must give him what he wants and protect him if is he in endangered by the law. In the meantime, he will supply you with more parties and more fun and more girls

    So simple, yet so effective
    There are so many questions about where his wealth kept coming from. We know he got paid a load of money from the bloke behind L Brands, which owns Victoria Secrets, there must have been loads more. He for instance granted Epstein full power of attorney over his affairs.
    Money laundering.
    Mossad
    That too. More than a hint of BCCI about him. It probably suited some authorities to have him launder money and have a hold over others.
    Jeffrey Epstein sent $30m to Ghislaine Maxwell over an eight year period. That’s some pay rate. The value of her services to the operation must have been immense. There is no way UK intelligence services and law enforcement could not have been aware of the nature of the operation Prince Andrew was tangled up in. They must have “had a word” with the Royal Household, surely?! Did he choose to simply ignore them? His arrogance exceeds his idiocy.
    Oh come on Stuart, who hasn't donated $30m (and a helicopter) to someone to procure under age girls?
    ”Underage girls” is perhaps a poor choice of words.

    https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/ghislaine-maxwell-trial-phrase-girls-victims-epstein-b1970670.html
    Many (probable most) people refer to women in their twenties as girls.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,645
    Stocky said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Leon said:

    Pagel speculating that we could have 90k cases a day by xmas.

    With omicron and no more mitigation I reckon that’s just about probable, not possible. It is also meaningless, we don’t yet know the severity
    336 people are known to have omicron in the UK. None of them are in hospital.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2021/dec/06/uk-covid-live-boris-johnson-no-10-christmas-party-lockdown-rules-kit-malthouse-latest-updates-
    May is right. Thank goodness we have at least some backbenchers scrutinising the government.

    Of the 336 known cases Javid says none are in hospital "as far as he knows". Goodness - he doesn't know? This is a vital piece of information. He should be all over this. If we have 336 cases and none are in hospital this should be headline news this morning.
    I think that's being a little unfair. He won't have the latest up-to-the minute information, and the data source for the cases will be somewhat disconnected from hospitalisation data - someone will probably have to combine them.

    And if he said: "No-one is in hospital," when someone was taken in six hours ago and he had not been told, he would get accused of lying.

    Also 336 cases is a rather small subset - although as it's in a British context, probably more applicable than the SA context. It's also early days, and people don't just get Covid and get hospitalised. It's promising, and I hope it continues like this, but this sort of situation can change rapidly.

    There are much more useful and important questions they should be asking:
    What are the profiles of the people who have Onicron? How do they compare with equivalents who have Delta at the same stage of the disease? How are the symptoms different? Is it spreading in the same ways? etc, etc.
  • StockyStocky Posts: 10,219

    Stocky said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Leon said:

    Pagel speculating that we could have 90k cases a day by xmas.

    With omicron and no more mitigation I reckon that’s just about probable, not possible. It is also meaningless, we don’t yet know the severity
    336 people are known to have omicron in the UK. None of them are in hospital.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2021/dec/06/uk-covid-live-boris-johnson-no-10-christmas-party-lockdown-rules-kit-malthouse-latest-updates-
    May is right. Thank goodness we have at least some backbenchers scrutinising the government.

    Of the 336 known cases Javid says none are in hospital "as far as he knows". Goodness - he doesn't know? This is a vital piece of information. He should be all over this. If we have 336 cases and none are in hospital this should be headline news this morning.
    Within 2 weeks the borders will be open as they will realise it will be far better if Omicron takes over from Delta.
    That's what the Swiss seemed to have twigged already with their removal of quarantine two days ago.
  • Stocky said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Leon said:

    Pagel speculating that we could have 90k cases a day by xmas.

    With omicron and no more mitigation I reckon that’s just about probable, not possible. It is also meaningless, we don’t yet know the severity
    336 people are known to have omicron in the UK. None of them are in hospital.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2021/dec/06/uk-covid-live-boris-johnson-no-10-christmas-party-lockdown-rules-kit-malthouse-latest-updates-
    May is right. Thank goodness we have at least some backbenchers scrutinising the government.

    Of the 336 known cases Javid says none are in hospital "as far as he knows". Goodness - he doesn't know? This is a vital piece of information. He should be all over this. If we have 336 cases and none are in hospital this should be headline news this morning.
    It may be good news, and we all hope it is, or it may simply reflect the fact that it takes a week or two to end up in hospital. Let's see.
  • StockyStocky Posts: 10,219

    Stocky said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Leon said:

    Pagel speculating that we could have 90k cases a day by xmas.

    With omicron and no more mitigation I reckon that’s just about probable, not possible. It is also meaningless, we don’t yet know the severity
    336 people are known to have omicron in the UK. None of them are in hospital.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2021/dec/06/uk-covid-live-boris-johnson-no-10-christmas-party-lockdown-rules-kit-malthouse-latest-updates-
    May is right. Thank goodness we have at least some backbenchers scrutinising the government.

    Of the 336 known cases Javid says none are in hospital "as far as he knows". Goodness - he doesn't know? This is a vital piece of information. He should be all over this. If we have 336 cases and none are in hospital this should be headline news this morning.
    Within 2 weeks the borders will be open as they will realise it will be far better if Omicron takes over from Delta.
    Perhaps. Hope so.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,465
    Surely the more exposure to coronaviruses the better for our immune system?
  • eekeek Posts: 28,381
    Zopa have pulled out of Peer to Peer lending with the new Zopa bank being all the existing loans.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,868
    eek said:

    Zopa have pulled out of Peer to Peer lending with the new Zopa bank being all the existing loans.

    Yeah, I just got the email. It appears to blame its more dodgy competitors for ruining confidence in the sector.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    rcs1000 said:

    Omnium said:

    World Chess Champion Magnus Carlsen is put to the test by English Grandmaster David Howell! How many games can he recognise?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eC1BAcOzHyY

    It is remarkable how soon Carlsen recognises some boards, and as for the Harry Potter game...
    Chess - I think every chess player knows that a computer could and will beat him.

    Go - I love the fact that we still have skin in the game.

    New game - Someone needs to invent a game that AI's can't reliably win at.
    Boar on the Floor.
    Boat Race?
  • Stocky said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Cyclefree said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    I know at least half a dozen people in Epstein’s black book. I’ve met maybe 2 dozen. The idea they are all pedos is QAnon territory

    If that is the sole basis for this “accusation” by Arcuri she is about to reap the libel law whirlwind

    What do you reckon, two-thirds? three quarters?
    As most of them are multimillionaires, and quite a few billionaires, I’d rein in any such commentary

    In fact I was slightly surprised to see that you were NOT on the list. Yet yer dad made it?

    Epstein knew where the real power lies. Lib Dems in Bedfordshire
    FWIW, I don't know who's in the 'Book', but as with you, I suspect I've met a fair number of them. Admittedly, they were all wearing masks at the party, so I couldn't be sure exactly who was who.
    Here’s the book

    https://s3.documentcloud.org/documents/1508273/jeffrey-epsteins-little-black-book-redacted.pdf

    I bet you’ve met ten or more, you might be friends with one or two, well, at least one, your dad. OK maybe none, but at least you kinda know him (your dad)

    FWIW and slightly more seriously I think the “book” is a load of old bollocks. It’s a list compiled by Epstein and Maxwell (allegedly!) of people in the USA and Europe who *might* be possible customers or punters or donors or just people they might one day hope to use. It’s a shopping list, complete with tell-tale spelling errors. Half of these people they’d never met, and never would

    That’s not to deny they did snare some big fish
    It's also *seriously* out of date. It has Rupert Soames as CEO of Misys.

    He hasn't been at Misys since 2003. And he also wasn't CEO.
    Well, yeah. The book is dated with a scribble from about 2003?

    it is a period piece, and largely bullshit at that. But that doesn’t mean it is valueless. It gives an insight into the Epstein/Maxwell?/Mossad (or whoever) operation. Their targets. Socially, financially, politically, commercially and academically influential people in NY, London and elsewhere.

    Goal? Try and get them on the Lolita Express. A free private jet flight to the Virgin Islands with Prince Andrew as a golf partner. The British Royals! Gotta be legit. Salve their anxieties. Don’t shower them with girls, yet

    Let the golf commence. Or a lunch and a lecture and some networking. All above board but plenty of booze

    In the evening, relax. Luxury food, louche music, some dancing. A very young but very pretty girl takes an interest in you. Why not? You’re a minister, mogul, top Harvard boffin, major journalist. You end up in bed. You are filmed. They show you. They have photos and videos. She, it turns out, is 17 or even 15; you, it turns out, are fucked. Epstein has you by the bollocks, and you must give him what he wants and protect him if is he in endangered by the law. In the meantime, he will supply you with more parties and more fun and more girls

    So simple, yet so effective
    There are so many questions about where his wealth kept coming from. We know he got paid a load of money from the bloke behind L Brands, which owns Victoria Secrets, there must have been loads more. He for instance granted Epstein full power of attorney over his affairs.
    Money laundering.
    Mossad
    That too. More than a hint of BCCI about him. It probably suited some authorities to have him launder money and have a hold over others.
    Jeffrey Epstein sent $30m to Ghislaine Maxwell over an eight year period. That’s some pay rate. The value of her services to the operation must have been immense. There is no way UK intelligence services and law enforcement could not have been aware of the nature of the operation Prince Andrew was tangled up in. They must have “had a word” with the Royal Household, surely?! Did he choose to simply ignore them? His arrogance exceeds his idiocy.
    Oh come on Stuart, who hasn't donated $30m (and a helicopter) to someone to procure under age girls?
    ”Underage girls” is perhaps a poor choice of words.

    https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/ghislaine-maxwell-trial-phrase-girls-victims-epstein-b1970670.html
    Many (probable most) people refer to women in their twenties as girls.
    That’ll disappear as society get’s less sexist.

    It doesn’t work in Sweden, where society is much more equal. It would be impossible to refer to women in their twenties as “flickor”. It just sounds preposterous in the Swedish language: people would genuinely consider you to be not right in the head.
This discussion has been closed.