To whom it may concern. I have tonight commenced legal action against Jennifer Acuri. To those who have retweeted her vile and untrue accusations claiming or implying they have even a scintilla of veracity, my lawyers will also be coming after you. You have been warned. https://twitter.com/afneil/status/1467961061076832263
I know at least half a dozen people in Epstein’s black book. I’ve met maybe 2 dozen. The idea they are all pedos is QAnon territory
If that is the sole basis for this “accusation” by Arcuri she is about to reap the libel law whirlwind
What do you reckon, two-thirds? three quarters?
As most of them are multimillionaires, and quite a few billionaires, I’d rein in any such commentary
In fact I was slightly surprised to see that you were NOT on the list. Yet yer dad made it?
Epstein knew where the real power lies. Lib Dems in Bedfordshire
“Rein in any such commentary”. Of course. Taking action on such commentary makes all the legal and PR sense in the world. All of it, there is literally none left.
Neil’s performance on Twitter tonight has amplified any harm to his reputation caused by Acuri. Seriously - if you want to take legal action by all means but do it in the morning with a letter before claim rather than getting the world and Barbara Streisand talking about it first.
That is an interesting point. Were he to prevail in his promised libel suit, would that amplification be then disregarded as far as damages were concerned ?
What are you going to call this variant, Scott? Delta was the Johnson Variant so are you going to work your way backwards through PMs - May, Cameron, Brown etc?
To whom it may concern. I have tonight commenced legal action against Jennifer Acuri. To those who have retweeted her vile and untrue accusations claiming or implying they have even a scintilla of veracity, my lawyers will also be coming after you. You have been warned. https://twitter.com/afneil/status/1467961061076832263
Neil's such a cunt.
I think he has every right to defend himself.
Of course. I just find him so very strange. He always seems so desperately angry about the UK he helped to create.
Strange is a far cry from what you said earlier. Why are you so desperately angry about him?
I dislike the man. Not really angry. But I find him unpleasant and I have done through what I've seen of his later career. His earlier career was also not much better.
I know at least half a dozen people in Epstein’s black book. I’ve met maybe 2 dozen. The idea they are all pedos is QAnon territory
If that is the sole basis for this “accusation” by Arcuri she is about to reap the libel law whirlwind
What do you reckon, two-thirds? three quarters?
As most of them are multimillionaires, and quite a few billionaires, I’d rein in any such commentary
In fact I was slightly surprised to see that you were NOT on the list. Yet yer dad made it?
Epstein knew where the real power lies. Lib Dems in Bedfordshire
FWIW, I don't know who's in the 'Book', but as with you, I suspect I've met a fair number of them. Admittedly, they were all wearing masks at the party, so I couldn't be sure exactly who was who.
I think, but can’t be sure, that that is where I met you.
To whom it may concern. I have tonight commenced legal action against Jennifer Acuri. To those who have retweeted her vile and untrue accusations claiming or implying they have even a scintilla of veracity, my lawyers will also be coming after you. You have been warned. https://twitter.com/afneil/status/1467961061076832263
Neil's such a cunt.
I think he has every right to defend himself.
Of course. I just find him so very strange. He always seems so desperately angry about the UK he helped to create.
Strange is a far cry from what you said earlier. Why are you so desperately angry about him?
I dislike the man. Not really angry. But I find him unpleasant and I have done through what I've seen of his later career. His earlier career was also not much better.
No, I think your outburst earlier was quite telling. Far more than just finding someone unpleasant.
I know at least half a dozen people in Epstein’s black book. I’ve met maybe 2 dozen. The idea they are all pedos is QAnon territory
If that is the sole basis for this “accusation” by Arcuri she is about to reap the libel law whirlwind
What do you reckon, two-thirds? three quarters?
As most of them are multimillionaires, and quite a few billionaires, I’d rein in any such commentary
In fact I was slightly surprised to see that you were NOT on the list. Yet yer dad made it?
Epstein knew where the real power lies. Lib Dems in Bedfordshire
FWIW, I don't know who's in the 'Book', but as with you, I suspect I've met a fair number of them. Admittedly, they were all wearing masks at the party, so I couldn't be sure exactly who was who.
I bet you’ve met ten or more, you might be friends with one or two, well, at least one, your dad. OK maybe none, but at least you kinda know him (your dad)
FWIW and slightly more seriously I think the “book” is a load of old bollocks. It’s a list compiled by Epstein and Maxwell (allegedly!) of people in the USA and Europe who *might* be possible customers or punters or donors or just people they might one day hope to use. It’s a shopping list, complete with tell-tale spelling errors. Half of these people they’d never met, and never would
Have just read the Neill / Arcuri spat on twitter.
Wow...
It certainly cheered me up. I don't care which of them goes down in flames. Perhaps both? It's fantastic sport either way.
I see what you mean, but the worry is that IF the accusation is true, there are some real victims out there. Whatever the facts, such serious criminal accusations *must* be investigated. Even if they were “in the past” (copyright Twat Raab).
It's a serious accusation?
His presence on a passenger manifest is proof of paedophilia according to Acuri....
Neil’s performance on Twitter tonight has amplified any harm to his reputation caused by Acuri. Seriously - if you want to take legal action by all means but do it in the morning with a letter before claim rather than getting the world and Barbara Streisand talking about it first.
That is an interesting point. Were he to prevail in his promised libel suit, would that amplification be then disregarded as far as damages were concerned ?
I’m not a defamation lawyer. My knowledge comes from an LPC Media & Entertainment law module I did in the late 90s when Twitter was an impossible dream.
The biggest point is whether she’s worth suing. Elon Musk = clearly worth suing. Jennifer Acuri = not so much.
To whom it may concern. I have tonight commenced legal action against Jennifer Acuri. To those who have retweeted her vile and untrue accusations claiming or implying they have even a scintilla of veracity, my lawyers will also be coming after you. You have been warned. https://twitter.com/afneil/status/1467961061076832263
Neil's such a cunt.
I think he has every right to defend himself.
Of course. I just find him so very strange. He always seems so desperately angry about the UK he helped to create.
Strange is a far cry from what you said earlier. Why are you so desperately angry about him?
I dislike the man. Not really angry. But I find him unpleasant and I have done through what I've seen of his later career. His earlier career was also not much better.
No, I think your outburst earlier was quite telling. Far more than just finding someone unpleasant.
Foreign travel is going to be a PITA or a pipe dream for a while yet.
Yep - I'm now planning for next year to be trips to Wales and Cornwall and a lot of weekends away.
I had one trip to France planned for next summer, but I'm already resigned to that not happening now.
Got a weekend to Bruges booked for late Jan, because I'm a stupid optimist (but free cancellation).
I’m off to stay with my new billionaire friend in Ibiza at the weekend. My feeling now is Fuck it
Don’t get a runny nose, whatever you do. I’m not sure we can cope with another week of whiney Sean posts as you traverse the River Styx.
it’s actually Menorca - I was so delirious with excitement I got confused - what makes it so excitingly interesting is that I am joining a ayahuasca ceremony. First time in my life. I confess to a soupçon of nerves
I hear it makes all sorts of inner personalities to come out ...
I do hope I don’t “overwhelm” the shaman. Or, indeed, become so scared of the hallucinatory jaguar god eating my liver from my thrashing body i never return to sanity (yes yes, I know, I know)
OTOH I have friends who absolutely SWEAR by ayahuasca
My understanding is the stuff used in Europe isn't actually ayahuasca.
I think it is if you are worth £2.3bn and you are an American mogul fascinated by entheogens
If it *is* the real thing, bear in mind it is nicknamed la purga in Latin America for a reason. Pack spare undies.
Neil’s performance on Twitter tonight has amplified any harm to his reputation caused by Acuri. Seriously - if you want to take legal action by all means but do it in the morning with a letter before claim rather than getting the world and Barbara Streisand talking about it first.
That is an interesting point. Were he to prevail in his promised libel suit, would that amplification be then disregarded as far as damages were concerned ?
IIRC it was disregarded in the Hamish Macalpine case? Once you publish on Twitter you publish
To whom it may concern. I have tonight commenced legal action against Jennifer Acuri. To those who have retweeted her vile and untrue accusations claiming or implying they have even a scintilla of veracity, my lawyers will also be coming after you. You have been warned. https://twitter.com/afneil/status/1467961061076832263
Neil's such a cunt.
I think he has every right to defend himself.
Of course. I just find him so very strange. He always seems so desperately angry about the UK he helped to create.
Strange is a far cry from what you said earlier. Why are you so desperately angry about him?
I dislike the man. Not really angry. But I find him unpleasant and I have done through what I've seen of his later career. His earlier career was also not much better.
No, I think your outburst earlier was quite telling. Far more than just finding someone unpleasant.
I think we use language differently.
No, not really. You don't call someone that if you just find them unpleasant. There's a seething hatred for him, for whatever reason.
What are you going to call this variant, Scott? Delta was the Johnson Variant so are you going to work your way backwards through PMs - May, Cameron, Brown etc?
We could always call it the "Let's shoot every vaccine refuser who shows up in hospital moaning that they can't breathe in order to free up beds for all the more deserving cases and avert another lockdown Variant"?
Last night some folk were speculating about a possible Russian invasion of Finland. I note today the government chose American F-35s instead of the Swedish Jas Gripen. Maybe they judge that they’re safer with NATO-compatible gear in the current climate?
- “Finland has spent the past five years selecting a new fighter with air-to-surface and air-to-sea capabilities to defend a 1,300-kilometer (800-mile) border with Russia, seeking to deter any aggression from its eastern neighbor. The jets will replace 64 Boeing Co. F/A-18 Hornets that will be retired in stages between 2025 and 2030, with the new aircraft set to be in service until the 2060s.”
What are you going to call this variant, Scott? Delta was the Johnson Variant so are you going to work your way backwards through PMs - May, Cameron, Brown etc?
We could always call it the "Let's shoot every vaccine refuser who shows up in hospital moaning that they can't breathe in order to free up beds for all the more deserving cases and avert another lockdown Variant"?
Sorry, I know that's not very catchy.
Case level in Belgium is twice here and their reaction is to close schools a week early
What are you going to call this variant, Scott? Delta was the Johnson Variant so are you going to work your way backwards through PMs - May, Cameron, Brown etc?
We could always call it the "Let's shoot every vaccine refuser who shows up in hospital moaning that they can't breathe in order to free up beds for all the more deserving cases and avert another lockdown Variant"?
Sorry, I know that's not very catchy.
Case level in Belgium is twice here and their reaction is to close schools a week early
Perhaps we could compromise by shooting 50 people selected at random from the staff of the DfE?
But fails to explain why a party, Labour, so brilliant that it should run the country and which came second in NS last time should be encouraging its supporters to make sure it loses even more badly this time, in a leave seat, to the ultra remain party. None of this makes any sense at all. And I still think (uncertainly) that the Tories will win it.
I expect the conservatives to lose, but if Labour are a poor third due to tactical voting that will be a problem for Starmer to explain how they say they are coming back in the north
In a deeply rural Midlands constituency Labour is going to come a poor third due to tactical voting and I don't think it will be a problem at all for Starmer.
Labour's response should be something along the lines that: (1) the public is clearly disillusioned with the Conservatives and judging which party to vote for on a constituency by constituency basis (2) In OBS Labour was the beneficiary, when a tactical switch of 60% of previous LD voters clearly helped Labour to its highest vote share in the constituency for 20 years (3) In Shropshire North the position was reversed and the LDs were the beneficiary of a tactical switch by Labour supporters and that (4) while there is no formal pact between the two parties, the two results show that there is little need for one as voters who want the Conservatives out are quite capable of making appropriate tactical judgements for themselves.
What are you going to call this variant, Scott? Delta was the Johnson Variant so are you going to work your way backwards through PMs - May, Cameron, Brown etc?
We could always call it the "Let's shoot every vaccine refuser who shows up in hospital moaning that they can't breathe in order to free up beds for all the more deserving cases and avert another lockdown Variant"?
What are you going to call this variant, Scott? Delta was the Johnson Variant so are you going to work your way backwards through PMs - May, Cameron, Brown etc?
We could always call it the "Let's shoot every vaccine refuser who shows up in hospital moaning that they can't breathe in order to free up beds for all the more deserving cases and avert another lockdown Variant"?
Sorry, I know that's not very catchy.
Case level in Belgium is twice here and their reaction is to close schools a week early
Perhaps we could compromise by shooting 50 people selected at random from the staff of the DfE?
I appreciate your professional hostility but I think that breaches the Geneva Convention
It rather depends on whether the LibDems have access to actual postal vote data, or whether they're just including canvas data which includes people who said 'oh yeah, and I already voted by post'. If the first, it's an issue. If the second, then it's fine.
Thank you for providing a sensible answer, unlike some who dismiss it even without reading the article
Oi, Big G I gave the same answer first. Stop sucking up to @rcs1000 cos his dad owns the site. I can spot favouritism.
Really? I don't see that comment.
Oh very good Robert. I spent ages looking for my comment so I could give you the time reference. I thought I was going mad. You deleted it didn't you? My wife thinks that is hilarious.
What are you going to call this variant, Scott? Delta was the Johnson Variant so are you going to work your way backwards through PMs - May, Cameron, Brown etc?
We could always call it the "Let's shoot every vaccine refuser who shows up in hospital moaning that they can't breathe in order to free up beds for all the more deserving cases and avert another lockdown Variant"?
Sorry, I know that's not very catchy.
Case level in Belgium is twice here and their reaction is to close schools a week early
Perhaps we could compromise by shooting 50 people selected at random from the staff of the DfE?
I appreciate your professional hostility but I think that breaches the Geneva Convention
I hadn't thought of that but now you mention it, they clearly are on the side of the virus.
But hold on, they're not wearing uniforms so they're civilians under arms and we can still shoot them.
I know at least half a dozen people in Epstein’s black book. I’ve met maybe 2 dozen. The idea they are all pedos is QAnon territory
If that is the sole basis for this “accusation” by Arcuri she is about to reap the libel law whirlwind
What do you reckon, two-thirds? three quarters?
As most of them are multimillionaires, and quite a few billionaires, I’d rein in any such commentary
In fact I was slightly surprised to see that you were NOT on the list. Yet yer dad made it?
Epstein knew where the real power lies. Lib Dems in Bedfordshire
FWIW, I don't know who's in the 'Book', but as with you, I suspect I've met a fair number of them. Admittedly, they were all wearing masks at the party, so I couldn't be sure exactly who was who.
I bet you’ve met ten or more, you might be friends with one or two, well, at least one, your dad. OK maybe none, but at least you kinda know him (your dad)
FWIW and slightly more seriously I think the “book” is a load of old bollocks. It’s a list compiled by Epstein and Maxwell (allegedly!) of people in the USA and Europe who *might* be possible customers or punters or donors or just people they might one day hope to use. It’s a shopping list, complete with tell-tale spelling errors. Half of these people they’d never met, and never would
That’s not to deny they did snare some big fish
Andrew Neil’s email is aol.com. He’s really down with the kidz.
But fails to explain why a party, Labour, so brilliant that it should run the country and which came second in NS last time should be encouraging its supporters to make sure it loses even more badly this time, in a leave seat, to the ultra remain party. None of this makes any sense at all. And I still think (uncertainly) that the Tories will win it.
I expect the conservatives to lose, but if Labour are a poor third due to tactical voting that will be a problem for Starmer to explain how they say they are coming back in the north
In a deeply rural Midlands constituency Labour is going to come a poor third due to tactical voting and I don't think it will be a problem at all for Starmer.
Labour's response should be something along the lines that: (1) the public is clearly disillusioned with the Conservatives and judging which party to vote for on a constituency by constituency basis (2) In OBS Labour was the beneficiary, when a tactical switch of 60% of previous LD voters clearly helped Labour to its highest vote share in the constituency for 20 years (3) In Shropshire North the position was reversed and the LDs were the beneficiary of a tactical switch by Labour supporters and that (4) while there is no formal pact between the two parties, the two results show that there is little need for one as voters who want the Conservatives out are quite capable of making appropriate tactical judgements for themselves.
However, if the Labour vote collapses to the LDs due to tactical voting then Labour could come fourth behind ReformUK as the LDs came 4th in Old Bexley and Sidcup behind ReformUK as their voters tactically voted Labour.
Foreign travel is going to be a PITA or a pipe dream for a while yet.
Yep - I'm now planning for next year to be trips to Wales and Cornwall and a lot of weekends away.
I had one trip to France planned for next summer, but I'm already resigned to that not happening now.
Got a weekend to Bruges booked for late Jan, because I'm a stupid optimist (but free cancellation).
I’m off to stay with my new billionaire friend in Ibiza at the weekend. My feeling now is Fuck it
Don’t get a runny nose, whatever you do. I’m not sure we can cope with another week of whiney Sean posts as you traverse the River Styx.
it’s actually Menorca - I was so delirious with excitement I got confused - what makes it so excitingly interesting is that I am joining a ayahuasca ceremony. First time in my life. I confess to a soupçon of nerves
I hear it makes all sorts of inner personalities to come out ...
I do hope I don’t “overwhelm” the shaman. Or, indeed, become so scared of the hallucinatory jaguar god eating my liver from my thrashing body i never return to sanity (yes yes, I know, I know)
OTOH I have friends who absolutely SWEAR by ayahuasca
My understanding is the stuff used in Europe isn't actually ayahuasca.
I think it is if you are worth £2.3bn and you are an American mogul fascinated by entheogens
If it *is* the real thing, bear in mind it is nicknamed la purga in Latin America for a reason. Pack spare undies.
I’m 99% sure it is the real deal. This guy does not fuck around. He won’t be the only squillionaire there, either, Psychedelics are the new coke, for Silicon Valley Royalty, and inquisitive aristos, coke is for the council dealers and wannabe banksters
Have you tried it? Do you really vomit everywhere and crap yourself? I have heard varying accounts, some quite, er, unsettling
To whom it may concern. I have tonight commenced legal action against Jennifer Acuri. To those who have retweeted her vile and untrue accusations claiming or implying they have even a scintilla of veracity, my lawyers will also be coming after you. You have been warned. https://twitter.com/afneil/status/1467961061076832263
Neil's such a cunt.
I think he has every right to defend himself.
Of course. I just find him so very strange. He always seems so desperately angry about the UK he helped to create.
Strange is a far cry from what you said earlier. Why are you so desperately angry about him?
I dislike the man. Not really angry. But I find him unpleasant and I have done through what I've seen of his later career. His earlier career was also not much better.
No, I think your outburst earlier was quite telling. Far more than just finding someone unpleasant.
I think we use language differently.
No, not really. You don't call someone that if you just find them unpleasant. There's a seething hatred for him, for whatever reason.
May be his tweet added to my ire. Not the context, he is welcome to defend his reputation. But I can imagine the way he wrote it helped quench some of the hate he has for life. If I had to rate the man I'd put him at 10 microhitlers.
Foreign travel is going to be a PITA or a pipe dream for a while yet.
Yep - I'm now planning for next year to be trips to Wales and Cornwall and a lot of weekends away.
I had one trip to France planned for next summer, but I'm already resigned to that not happening now.
Got a weekend to Bruges booked for late Jan, because I'm a stupid optimist (but free cancellation).
I’m off to stay with my new billionaire friend in Ibiza at the weekend. My feeling now is Fuck it
Don’t get a runny nose, whatever you do. I’m not sure we can cope with another week of whiney Sean posts as you traverse the River Styx.
it’s actually Menorca - I was so delirious with excitement I got confused - what makes it so excitingly interesting is that I am joining a ayahuasca ceremony. First time in my life. I confess to a soupçon of nerves
I hear it makes all sorts of inner personalities to come out ...
I do hope I don’t “overwhelm” the shaman. Or, indeed, become so scared of the hallucinatory jaguar god eating my liver from my thrashing body i never return to sanity (yes yes, I know, I know)
OTOH I have friends who absolutely SWEAR by ayahuasca
My understanding is the stuff used in Europe isn't actually ayahuasca.
I think it is if you are worth £2.3bn and you are an American mogul fascinated by entheogens
If it *is* the real thing, bear in mind it is nicknamed la purga in Latin America for a reason. Pack spare undies.
Oh no! He’ll be bleating about a runny nose and skid marks too? The poor wee lamb.
What are you going to call this variant, Scott? Delta was the Johnson Variant so are you going to work your way backwards through PMs - May, Cameron, Brown etc?
We could always call it the "Let's shoot every vaccine refuser who shows up in hospital moaning that they can't breathe in order to free up beds for all the more deserving cases and avert another lockdown Variant"?
Sorry, I know that's not very catchy.
Case level in Belgium is twice here and their reaction is to close schools a week early
Yes, and hopefully we have seen the last of the kind of heavy-handed crap we had to endure before the vaccines. This doesn't, however, mean that (a) there won't be a lot of pressure for more of it from the usual suspects and, moreover, (b) there won't be more people suffering from everything other than Covid who are, to be blunt, abandoned to deteriorate and die by the NHS, all because intensive care capacity is clogged with anti-vaxxers and their illness takes precedence over absolutely everything else.
Much as I might agree with that position in that case, if I had a vote there I wouldn't heed any advice from the Guardian out of principle. The problem I have with the Guardian is summed up by the absence of a similar editorial calling on LD supporters to vote Labour in Old Bexley. It's always struck me as much more a LD paper than a Labour one.
Foreign travel is going to be a PITA or a pipe dream for a while yet.
Yep - I'm now planning for next year to be trips to Wales and Cornwall and a lot of weekends away.
I had one trip to France planned for next summer, but I'm already resigned to that not happening now.
Got a weekend to Bruges booked for late Jan, because I'm a stupid optimist (but free cancellation).
I’m off to stay with my new billionaire friend in Ibiza at the weekend. My feeling now is Fuck it
Don’t get a runny nose, whatever you do. I’m not sure we can cope with another week of whiney Sean posts as you traverse the River Styx.
it’s actually Menorca - I was so delirious with excitement I got confused - what makes it so excitingly interesting is that I am joining a ayahuasca ceremony. First time in my life. I confess to a soupçon of nerves
I hear it makes all sorts of inner personalities to come out ...
I do hope I don’t “overwhelm” the shaman. Or, indeed, become so scared of the hallucinatory jaguar god eating my liver from my thrashing body i never return to sanity (yes yes, I know, I know)
OTOH I have friends who absolutely SWEAR by ayahuasca
Consequences are truly incalculable. You might come back and stand for the SNP in Barking.
I know at least half a dozen people in Epstein’s black book. I’ve met maybe 2 dozen. The idea they are all pedos is QAnon territory
If that is the sole basis for this “accusation” by Arcuri she is about to reap the libel law whirlwind
What do you reckon, two-thirds? three quarters?
As most of them are multimillionaires, and quite a few billionaires, I’d rein in any such commentary
In fact I was slightly surprised to see that you were NOT on the list. Yet yer dad made it?
Epstein knew where the real power lies. Lib Dems in Bedfordshire
FWIW, I don't know who's in the 'Book', but as with you, I suspect I've met a fair number of them. Admittedly, they were all wearing masks at the party, so I couldn't be sure exactly who was who.
I bet you’ve met ten or more, you might be friends with one or two, well, at least one, your dad. OK maybe none, but at least you kinda know him (your dad)
FWIW and slightly more seriously I think the “book” is a load of old bollocks. It’s a list compiled by Epstein and Maxwell (allegedly!) of people in the USA and Europe who *might* be possible customers or punters or donors or just people they might one day hope to use. It’s a shopping list, complete with tell-tale spelling errors. Half of these people they’d never met, and never would
That’s not to deny they did snare some big fish
I get the feeling there's something there about implicating people who weren't involved as part of the manipulation.
I know at least half a dozen people in Epstein’s black book. I’ve met maybe 2 dozen. The idea they are all pedos is QAnon territory
If that is the sole basis for this “accusation” by Arcuri she is about to reap the libel law whirlwind
What do you reckon, two-thirds? three quarters?
As most of them are multimillionaires, and quite a few billionaires, I’d rein in any such commentary
In fact I was slightly surprised to see that you were NOT on the list. Yet yer dad made it?
Epstein knew where the real power lies. Lib Dems in Bedfordshire
FWIW, I don't know who's in the 'Book', but as with you, I suspect I've met a fair number of them. Admittedly, they were all wearing masks at the party, so I couldn't be sure exactly who was who.
I bet you’ve met ten or more, you might be friends with one or two, well, at least one, your dad. OK maybe none, but at least you kinda know him (your dad)
FWIW and slightly more seriously I think the “book” is a load of old bollocks. It’s a list compiled by Epstein and Maxwell (allegedly!) of people in the USA and Europe who *might* be possible customers or punters or donors or just people they might one day hope to use. It’s a shopping list, complete with tell-tale spelling errors. Half of these people they’d never met, and never would
That’s not to deny they did snare some big fish
It's also *seriously* out of date. It has Rupert Soames as CEO of Misys.
He hasn't been at Misys since 2003. And he also wasn't CEO.
But fails to explain why a party, Labour, so brilliant that it should run the country and which came second in NS last time should be encouraging its supporters to make sure it loses even more badly this time, in a leave seat, to the ultra remain party. None of this makes any sense at all. And I still think (uncertainly) that the Tories will win it.
I expect the conservatives to lose, but if Labour are a poor third due to tactical voting that will be a problem for Starmer to explain how they say they are coming back in the north
In a deeply rural Midlands constituency Labour is going to come a poor third due to tactical voting and I don't think it will be a problem at all for Starmer.
Labour's response should be something along the lines that: (1) the public is clearly disillusioned with the Conservatives and judging which party to vote for on a constituency by constituency basis (2) In OBS Labour was the beneficiary, when a tactical switch of 60% of previous LD voters clearly helped Labour to its highest vote share in the constituency for 20 years (3) In Shropshire North the position was reversed and the LDs were the beneficiary of a tactical switch by Labour supporters and that (4) while there is no formal pact between the two parties, the two results show that there is little need for one as voters who want the Conservatives out are quite capable of making appropriate tactical judgements for themselves.
However, if the Labour vote collapses to the LDs due to tactical voting then Labour could come fourth behind ReformUK as the LDs came 4th in Old Bexley and Sidcup behind ReformUK as their voters tactically voted Labour.
Quite possibly, I take your point but it doesn't really impact on mine.
It rather depends on whether the LibDems have access to actual postal vote data, or whether they're just including canvas data which includes people who said 'oh yeah, and I already voted by post'. If the first, it's an issue. If the second, then it's fine.
Thank you for providing a sensible answer, unlike some who dismiss it even without reading the article
Oi, Big G I gave the same answer first. Stop sucking up to @rcs1000 cos his dad owns the site. I can spot favouritism.
Really? I don't see that comment.
Oh very good Robert. I spent ages looking for my comment so I could give you the time reference. I thought I was going mad. You deleted it didn't you? My wife thinks that is hilarious.
What are you going to call this variant, Scott? Delta was the Johnson Variant so are you going to work your way backwards through PMs - May, Cameron, Brown etc?
We could always call it the "Let's shoot every vaccine refuser who shows up in hospital moaning that they can't breathe in order to free up beds for all the more deserving cases and avert another lockdown Variant"?
Sorry, I know that's not very catchy.
Case level in Belgium is twice here and their reaction is to close schools a week early
Yes, and hopefully we have seen the last of the kind of heavy-handed crap we had to endure before the vaccines. This doesn't, however, mean that (a) there won't be a lot of pressure for more of it from the usual suspects and, moreover, (b) there won't be more people suffering from everything other than Covid who are, to be blunt, abandoned to deteriorate and die by the NHS, all because intensive care capacity is clogged with anti-vaxxers and their illness takes precedence over absolutely everything else.
At this point, I don't think that parents of unvaccinated secondary school children would have a lot to complain about if their children were sent home a week early while remaining open to other children. Other than perhaps the lack of a prior warning sufficient to allow them to get their children vaccinated in time. A more appropriate UK strategy at this point might be to announce that schools will reopen on time post Christmas except that unvaccinated children won't be allowed to return initially. Cue rush to get children vaccinated.
On the other hand, if UK schools were closed early to all children then parents who had done the right thing by getting their children vaccinated should be absolutely seething at the failure of our Government to take on those who didn't.
It rather depends on whether the LibDems have access to actual postal vote data, or whether they're just including canvas data which includes people who said 'oh yeah, and I already voted by post'. If the first, it's an issue. If the second, then it's fine.
Thank you for providing a sensible answer, unlike some who dismiss it even without reading the article
Oi, Big G I gave the same answer first. Stop sucking up to @rcs1000 cos his dad owns the site. I can spot favouritism.
Really? I don't see that comment.
Oh very good Robert. I spent ages looking for my comment so I could give you the time reference. I thought I was going mad. You deleted it didn't you? My wife thinks that is hilarious.
Sorry.
I was being very childish
That's all right. It gave me a good laugh. It amuses me that you posted a joke on a site available to the world that only I was likely to get. I appreciate the effort.
I know at least half a dozen people in Epstein’s black book. I’ve met maybe 2 dozen. The idea they are all pedos is QAnon territory
If that is the sole basis for this “accusation” by Arcuri she is about to reap the libel law whirlwind
What do you reckon, two-thirds? three quarters?
As most of them are multimillionaires, and quite a few billionaires, I’d rein in any such commentary
In fact I was slightly surprised to see that you were NOT on the list. Yet yer dad made it?
Epstein knew where the real power lies. Lib Dems in Bedfordshire
FWIW, I don't know who's in the 'Book', but as with you, I suspect I've met a fair number of them. Admittedly, they were all wearing masks at the party, so I couldn't be sure exactly who was who.
I bet you’ve met ten or more, you might be friends with one or two, well, at least one, your dad. OK maybe none, but at least you kinda know him (your dad)
FWIW and slightly more seriously I think the “book” is a load of old bollocks. It’s a list compiled by Epstein and Maxwell (allegedly!) of people in the USA and Europe who *might* be possible customers or punters or donors or just people they might one day hope to use. It’s a shopping list, complete with tell-tale spelling errors. Half of these people they’d never met, and never would
That’s not to deny they did snare some big fish
It's also *seriously* out of date. It has Rupert Soames as CEO of Misys.
He hasn't been at Misys since 2003. And he also wasn't CEO.
Well, yeah. The book is dated with a scribble from about 2003?
it is a period piece, and largely bullshit at that. But that doesn’t mean it is valueless. It gives an insight into the Epstein/Maxwell?/Mossad (or whoever) operation. Their targets. Socially, financially, politically, commercially and academically influential people in NY, London and elsewhere.
Goal? Try and get them on the Lolita Express. A free private jet flight to the Virgin Islands with Prince Andrew as a golf partner. The British Royals! Gotta be legit. Salve their anxieties. Don’t shower them with girls, yet
Let the golf commence. Or a lunch and a lecture and some networking. All above board but plenty of booze
In the evening, relax. Luxury food, louche music, some dancing. A very young but very pretty girl takes an interest in you. Why not? You’re a minister, mogul, top Harvard boffin, major journalist. You end up in bed. You are filmed. They show you. They have photos and videos. She, it turns out, is 17 or even 15; you, it turns out, are fucked. Epstein has you by the bollocks, and you must give him what he wants and protect him if is he in endangered by the law. In the meantime, he will supply you with more parties and more fun and more girls
Last night some folk were speculating about a possible Russian invasion of Finland. I note today the government chose American F-35s instead of the Swedish Jas Gripen. Maybe they judge that they’re safer with NATO-compatible gear in the current climate?
- “Finland has spent the past five years selecting a new fighter with air-to-surface and air-to-sea capabilities to defend a 1,300-kilometer (800-mile) border with Russia, seeking to deter any aggression from its eastern neighbor. The jets will replace 64 Boeing Co. F/A-18 Hornets that will be retired in stages between 2025 and 2030, with the new aircraft set to be in service until the 2060s.”
Last night some folk were speculating about a possible Russian invasion of Finland. I note today the government chose American F-35s instead of the Swedish Jas Gripen. Maybe they judge that they’re safer with NATO-compatible gear in the current climate?
- “Finland has spent the past five years selecting a new fighter with air-to-surface and air-to-sea capabilities to defend a 1,300-kilometer (800-mile) border with Russia, seeking to deter any aggression from its eastern neighbor. The jets will replace 64 Boeing Co. F/A-18 Hornets that will be retired in stages between 2025 and 2030, with the new aircraft set to be in service until the 2060s.”
Foreign travel is going to be a PITA or a pipe dream for a while yet.
Yep - I'm now planning for next year to be trips to Wales and Cornwall and a lot of weekends away.
I had one trip to France planned for next summer, but I'm already resigned to that not happening now.
Got a weekend to Bruges booked for late Jan, because I'm a stupid optimist (but free cancellation).
I’m off to stay with my new billionaire friend in Ibiza at the weekend. My feeling now is Fuck it
Don’t get a runny nose, whatever you do. I’m not sure we can cope with another week of whiney Sean posts as you traverse the River Styx.
it’s actually Menorca - I was so delirious with excitement I got confused - what makes it so excitingly interesting is that I am joining a ayahuasca ceremony. First time in my life. I confess to a soupçon of nerves
I hear it makes all sorts of inner personalities to come out ...
I do hope I don’t “overwhelm” the shaman. Or, indeed, become so scared of the hallucinatory jaguar god eating my liver from my thrashing body i never return to sanity (yes yes, I know, I know)
OTOH I have friends who absolutely SWEAR by ayahuasca
Consequences are truly incalculable. You might come back and stand for the SNP in Barking.
He will do that during the ceremony, as he realises Wee Nicki is high priestess of the machine elves, and the embodiment of the number 42.
Counsellor? Counsellor, is that you? Counsellor, come out, come out, wherever you are! I ain't no white trash piece of shit. I'm better than you all! I can out-learn you. I can out-read you. I can out-think you. And I can out-philosophize you. And I'm gonna outlast you. You think a couple whacks to my good ol' boy guts is gonna get me down? It's gonna take a hell of a lot more than that, Counsellor, to prove you're better than me! I am like God, and God like me. I am as large as God. He is as small as I. He cannot above me, nor I beneath Him be. Silesius, 17th Century. Counsellor? Counsellor, could you be there? Could you be there? Counsellor. I wonder if you're here. Ah, f*ck it. You're here, you ain't here. What the f*ck's the difference?
I am not shocked at all to find that one of the policemen had been a trader for 20 years. And that they had a WhatsApp group called "Covid c***ts", which had 41 Met officers in it.
Beth Rigby @BethRigby Omicron causing up to 1,000 infections a day. Professor Francois Balloux, director of UCL Genetics Institute says #omicron outbreak well underway, doubling every three to four days and will quickly put NHS under pressure, via @SkyNewsThomas
===
Balloux has been one of the more restrained, sober medical commentators iirc.
I am not shocked at all to find that one of the policemen had been a trader for 20 years. And that they had a WhatsApp group called "Covid c***ts", which had 41 Met officers in it.
Who the hell wants to see such pics! Don’t answer that question.
Foreign travel is going to be a PITA or a pipe dream for a while yet.
Yep - I'm now planning for next year to be trips to Wales and Cornwall and a lot of weekends away.
I had one trip to France planned for next summer, but I'm already resigned to that not happening now.
Got a weekend to Bruges booked for late Jan, because I'm a stupid optimist (but free cancellation).
I’m off to stay with my new billionaire friend in Ibiza at the weekend. My feeling now is Fuck it
Don’t get a runny nose, whatever you do. I’m not sure we can cope with another week of whiney Sean posts as you traverse the River Styx.
it’s actually Menorca - I was so delirious with excitement I got confused - what makes it so excitingly interesting is that I am joining a ayahuasca ceremony. First time in my life. I confess to a soupçon of nerves
I hear it makes all sorts of inner personalities to come out ...
I do hope I don’t “overwhelm” the shaman. Or, indeed, become so scared of the hallucinatory jaguar god eating my liver from my thrashing body i never return to sanity (yes yes, I know, I know)
OTOH I have friends who absolutely SWEAR by ayahuasca
My understanding is the stuff used in Europe isn't actually ayahuasca.
I think it is if you are worth £2.3bn and you are an American mogul fascinated by entheogens
If it *is* the real thing, bear in mind it is nicknamed la purga in Latin America for a reason. Pack spare undies.
I’m 99% sure it is the real deal. This guy does not fuck around. He won’t be the only squillionaire there, either, Psychedelics are the new coke, for Silicon Valley Royalty, and inquisitive aristos, coke is for the council dealers and wannabe banksters
Have you tried it? Do you really vomit everywhere and crap yourself? I have heard varying accounts, some quite, er, unsettling
No. I do consume fungi off Dartmoor, but they don't have the same reputation.
I am not shocked at all to find that one of the policemen had been a trader for 20 years. And that they had a WhatsApp group called "Covid c***ts", which had 41 Met officers in it.
Foreign travel is going to be a PITA or a pipe dream for a while yet.
Yep - I'm now planning for next year to be trips to Wales and Cornwall and a lot of weekends away.
I had one trip to France planned for next summer, but I'm already resigned to that not happening now.
Got a weekend to Bruges booked for late Jan, because I'm a stupid optimist (but free cancellation).
I’m off to stay with my new billionaire friend in Ibiza at the weekend. My feeling now is Fuck it
Don’t get a runny nose, whatever you do. I’m not sure we can cope with another week of whiney Sean posts as you traverse the River Styx.
it’s actually Menorca - I was so delirious with excitement I got confused - what makes it so excitingly interesting is that I am joining a ayahuasca ceremony. First time in my life. I confess to a soupçon of nerves
I hear it makes all sorts of inner personalities to come out ...
I do hope I don’t “overwhelm” the shaman. Or, indeed, become so scared of the hallucinatory jaguar god eating my liver from my thrashing body i never return to sanity (yes yes, I know, I know)
OTOH I have friends who absolutely SWEAR by ayahuasca
My understanding is the stuff used in Europe isn't actually ayahuasca.
I think it is if you are worth £2.3bn and you are an American mogul fascinated by entheogens
If it *is* the real thing, bear in mind it is nicknamed la purga in Latin America for a reason. Pack spare undies.
I’m 99% sure it is the real deal. This guy does not fuck around. He won’t be the only squillionaire there, either, Psychedelics are the new coke, for Silicon Valley Royalty, and inquisitive aristos, coke is for the council dealers and wannabe banksters
Have you tried it? Do you really vomit everywhere and crap yourself? I have heard varying accounts, some quite, er, unsettling
No. I do consume fungi off Dartmoor, but they don't have the same reputation.
only a couple of notes on kindle, and he is a highly intelligent writer. Lots to say about gobekli tepe.
I'm a big fan too!
"Supernatural" is a great read.
But it was "Underworld" that got me interested in Ice Age coastlines.
Anyway, @Leon will find this interesting: Study suggests psychedelics promote positive mental health through increased spirituality and emotion regulation
It rather depends on whether the LibDems have access to actual postal vote data, or whether they're just including canvas data which includes people who said 'oh yeah, and I already voted by post'. If the first, it's an issue. If the second, then it's fine.
Thank you for providing a sensible answer, unlike some who dismiss it even without reading the article
Oi, Big G I gave the same answer first. Stop sucking up to @rcs1000 cos his dad owns the site. I can spot favouritism.
Really? I don't see that comment.
Oh very good Robert. I spent ages looking for my comment so I could give you the time reference. I thought I was going mad. You deleted it didn't you? My wife thinks that is hilarious.
Sorry.
I was being very childish
So you have the Power of God, and the mentality of Chris Morris?
Counsellor? Counsellor, is that you? Counsellor, come out, come out, wherever you are! I ain't no white trash piece of shit. I'm better than you all! I can out-learn you. I can out-read you. I can out-think you. And I can out-philosophize you. And I'm gonna outlast you. You think a couple whacks to my good ol' boy guts is gonna get me down? It's gonna take a hell of a lot more than that, Counsellor, to prove you're better than me! I am like God, and God like me. I am as large as God. He is as small as I. He cannot above me, nor I beneath Him be. Silesius, 17th Century. Counsellor? Counsellor, could you be there? Could you be there? Counsellor. I wonder if you're here. Ah, f*ck it. You're here, you ain't here. What the f*ck's the difference?
You sound as though you need a counsellor yourself, Sunil.
I know at least half a dozen people in Epstein’s black book. I’ve met maybe 2 dozen. The idea they are all pedos is QAnon territory
If that is the sole basis for this “accusation” by Arcuri she is about to reap the libel law whirlwind
What do you reckon, two-thirds? three quarters?
As most of them are multimillionaires, and quite a few billionaires, I’d rein in any such commentary
In fact I was slightly surprised to see that you were NOT on the list. Yet yer dad made it?
Epstein knew where the real power lies. Lib Dems in Bedfordshire
FWIW, I don't know who's in the 'Book', but as with you, I suspect I've met a fair number of them. Admittedly, they were all wearing masks at the party, so I couldn't be sure exactly who was who.
I bet you’ve met ten or more, you might be friends with one or two, well, at least one, your dad. OK maybe none, but at least you kinda know him (your dad)
FWIW and slightly more seriously I think the “book” is a load of old bollocks. It’s a list compiled by Epstein and Maxwell (allegedly!) of people in the USA and Europe who *might* be possible customers or punters or donors or just people they might one day hope to use. It’s a shopping list, complete with tell-tale spelling errors. Half of these people they’d never met, and never would
That’s not to deny they did snare some big fish
It's also *seriously* out of date. It has Rupert Soames as CEO of Misys.
He hasn't been at Misys since 2003. And he also wasn't CEO.
Well, yeah. The book is dated with a scribble from about 2003?
it is a period piece, and largely bullshit at that. But that doesn’t mean it is valueless. It gives an insight into the Epstein/Maxwell?/Mossad (or whoever) operation. Their targets. Socially, financially, politically, commercially and academically influential people in NY, London and elsewhere.
Goal? Try and get them on the Lolita Express. A free private jet flight to the Virgin Islands with Prince Andrew as a golf partner. The British Royals! Gotta be legit. Salve their anxieties. Don’t shower them with girls, yet
Let the golf commence. Or a lunch and a lecture and some networking. All above board but plenty of booze
In the evening, relax. Luxury food, louche music, some dancing. A very young but very pretty girl takes an interest in you. Why not? You’re a minister, mogul, top Harvard boffin, major journalist. You end up in bed. You are filmed. They show you. They have photos and videos. She, it turns out, is 17 or even 15; you, it turns out, are fucked. Epstein has you by the bollocks, and you must give him what he wants and protect him if is he in endangered by the law. In the meantime, he will supply you with more parties and more fun and more girls
So simple, yet so effective
There are so many questions about where his wealth kept coming from. We know he got paid a load of money from the bloke behind L Brands, which owns Victoria Secrets, there must have been loads more. He for instance granted Epstein full power of attorney over his affairs.
Counsellor? Counsellor, is that you? Counsellor, come out, come out, wherever you are! I ain't no white trash piece of shit. I'm better than you all! I can out-learn you. I can out-read you. I can out-think you. And I can out-philosophize you. And I'm gonna outlast you. You think a couple whacks to my good ol' boy guts is gonna get me down? It's gonna take a hell of a lot more than that, Counsellor, to prove you're better than me! I am like God, and God like me. I am as large as God. He is as small as I. He cannot above me, nor I beneath Him be. Silesius, 17th Century. Counsellor? Counsellor, could you be there? Could you be there? Counsellor. I wonder if you're here. Ah, f*ck it. You're here, you ain't here. What the f*ck's the difference?
You sound as though you need a counsellor yourself, Sunil.
You didn't get the reference, did you?
Cape Fear marks the seventh collaboration between Scorsese and De Niro. The film was a commercial success and garnered positive reviews, receiving Oscar and Golden Globe Award nominations for Best Actor (De Niro) and Best Supporting Actress (Juliette Lewis). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cape_Fear_(1991_film)
Professor Spector, who leads the King's College London Zoe Covid study, said: 'At the moment, we're estimating that somewhere between one in three and one in four colds are actually due to Covid.'
He told Times Radio that the UK must be 'much more open-minded about who we are testing' and 'get more people to isolate at least for a few days with cold-like symptoms'.
'That's quite a high rate of people that are currently not even bothered to get a lateral flow test, or getting a PCR test, going to parties and spreading it around,' he said.
'So if that transfers to Omicron then we're going to be compounding that problem much faster than we would need to.'
Beth Rigby @BethRigby Omicron causing up to 1,000 infections a day. Professor Francois Balloux, director of UCL Genetics Institute says #omicron outbreak well underway, doubling every three to four days and will quickly put NHS under pressure, via @SkyNewsThomas
===
Balloux has been one of the more restrained, sober medical commentators iirc.
Bleak.
We are looking at Jan lockdown I fear.
I’m not sure Beth Rigby has even watched the interview. The thrust of the tape is Balloux explaining why travel bans are pointless when you have community transmission - a thesis seemingly entirely lost on Rigby.
But fails to explain why a party, Labour, so brilliant that it should run the country and which came second in NS last time should be encouraging its supporters to make sure it loses even more badly this time, in a leave seat, to the ultra remain party. None of this makes any sense at all. And I still think (uncertainly) that the Tories will win it.
I expect the conservatives to lose, but if Labour are a poor third due to tactical voting that will be a problem for Starmer to explain how they say they are coming back in the north
In a deeply rural Midlands constituency Labour is going to come a poor third due to tactical voting and I don't think it will be a problem at all for Starmer.
Labour's response should be something along the lines that: (1) the public is clearly disillusioned with the Conservatives and judging which party to vote for on a constituency by constituency basis (2) In OBS Labour was the beneficiary, when a tactical switch of 60% of previous LD voters clearly helped Labour to its highest vote share in the constituency for 20 years (3) In Shropshire North the position was reversed and the LDs were the beneficiary of a tactical switch by Labour supporters and that (4) while there is no formal pact between the two parties, the two results show that there is little need for one as voters who want the Conservatives out are quite capable of making appropriate tactical judgements for themselves.
However, if the Labour vote collapses to the LDs due to tactical voting then Labour could come fourth behind ReformUK as the LDs came 4th in Old Bexley and Sidcup behind ReformUK as their voters tactically voted Labour.
I know at least half a dozen people in Epstein’s black book. I’ve met maybe 2 dozen. The idea they are all pedos is QAnon territory
If that is the sole basis for this “accusation” by Arcuri she is about to reap the libel law whirlwind
What do you reckon, two-thirds? three quarters?
As most of them are multimillionaires, and quite a few billionaires, I’d rein in any such commentary
In fact I was slightly surprised to see that you were NOT on the list. Yet yer dad made it?
Epstein knew where the real power lies. Lib Dems in Bedfordshire
FWIW, I don't know who's in the 'Book', but as with you, I suspect I've met a fair number of them. Admittedly, they were all wearing masks at the party, so I couldn't be sure exactly who was who.
I bet you’ve met ten or more, you might be friends with one or two, well, at least one, your dad. OK maybe none, but at least you kinda know him (your dad)
FWIW and slightly more seriously I think the “book” is a load of old bollocks. It’s a list compiled by Epstein and Maxwell (allegedly!) of people in the USA and Europe who *might* be possible customers or punters or donors or just people they might one day hope to use. It’s a shopping list, complete with tell-tale spelling errors. Half of these people they’d never met, and never would
That’s not to deny they did snare some big fish
It's also *seriously* out of date. It has Rupert Soames as CEO of Misys.
He hasn't been at Misys since 2003. And he also wasn't CEO.
Well, yeah. The book is dated with a scribble from about 2003?
it is a period piece, and largely bullshit at that. But that doesn’t mean it is valueless. It gives an insight into the Epstein/Maxwell?/Mossad (or whoever) operation. Their targets. Socially, financially, politically, commercially and academically influential people in NY, London and elsewhere.
Goal? Try and get them on the Lolita Express. A free private jet flight to the Virgin Islands with Prince Andrew as a golf partner. The British Royals! Gotta be legit. Salve their anxieties. Don’t shower them with girls, yet
Let the golf commence. Or a lunch and a lecture and some networking. All above board but plenty of booze
In the evening, relax. Luxury food, louche music, some dancing. A very young but very pretty girl takes an interest in you. Why not? You’re a minister, mogul, top Harvard boffin, major journalist. You end up in bed. You are filmed. They show you. They have photos and videos. She, it turns out, is 17 or even 15; you, it turns out, are fucked. Epstein has you by the bollocks, and you must give him what he wants and protect him if is he in endangered by the law. In the meantime, he will supply you with more parties and more fun and more girls
So simple, yet so effective
There are so many questions about where his wealth kept coming from. We know he got paid a load of money from the bloke behind L Brands, which owns Victoria Secrets, there must have been loads more. He for instance granted Epstein full power of attorney over his affairs.
Grim Prediction: Eric Zemmour will end up assassinated, like Pim Fortuyn in Holland
Trump seems to be remarkably cavalier about that risk too - surprisingly so given that it could end up being the only remaining check and balance against the presidency if he gets his way.
Grim Prediction: Eric Zemmour will end up assassinated, like Pim Fortuyn in Holland
Trump seems to be remarkably cavalier about that risk too - surprisingly so given that it could end up being the only remaining check and balance against the presidency if he gets his way.
The best argument against his deep state 'theory' is that he is still is alive.
I am not shocked at all to find that one of the policemen had been a trader for 20 years. And that they had a WhatsApp group called "Covid c***ts", which had 41 Met officers in it.
Who the hell wants to see such pics! Don’t answer that question.
Some of the stuff I have seen shared on traders' chats is quite revolting. So revolting in fact that I can't bring myself to describe it.
One of the horrible things about this case is that they were so open about sharing these pictures. One wonders what else is being shared.
Were I a victim of a sexual assault I'm not at all confident that the police would keep the details confidential.
But fails to explain why a party, Labour, so brilliant that it should run the country and which came second in NS last time should be encouraging its supporters to make sure it loses even more badly this time, in a leave seat, to the ultra remain party. None of this makes any sense at all. And I still think (uncertainly) that the Tories will win it.
I expect the conservatives to lose, but if Labour are a poor third due to tactical voting that will be a problem for Starmer to explain how they say they are coming back in the north
In a deeply rural Midlands constituency Labour is going to come a poor third due to tactical voting and I don't think it will be a problem at all for Starmer.
Labour's response should be something along the lines that: (1) the public is clearly disillusioned with the Conservatives and judging which party to vote for on a constituency by constituency basis (2) In OBS Labour was the beneficiary, when a tactical switch of 60% of previous LD voters clearly helped Labour to its highest vote share in the constituency for 20 years (3) In Shropshire North the position was reversed and the LDs were the beneficiary of a tactical switch by Labour supporters and that (4) while there is no formal pact between the two parties, the two results show that there is little need for one as voters who want the Conservatives out are quite capable of making appropriate tactical judgements for themselves.
However, if the Labour vote collapses to the LDs due to tactical voting then Labour could come fourth behind ReformUK as the LDs came 4th in Old Bexley and Sidcup behind ReformUK as their voters tactically voted Labour.
And your point? So what?
If Labour came fifth in a Libdem win next week, they would be too busy laughing to even put out a statement.
I know at least half a dozen people in Epstein’s black book. I’ve met maybe 2 dozen. The idea they are all pedos is QAnon territory
If that is the sole basis for this “accusation” by Arcuri she is about to reap the libel law whirlwind
What do you reckon, two-thirds? three quarters?
As most of them are multimillionaires, and quite a few billionaires, I’d rein in any such commentary
In fact I was slightly surprised to see that you were NOT on the list. Yet yer dad made it?
Epstein knew where the real power lies. Lib Dems in Bedfordshire
FWIW, I don't know who's in the 'Book', but as with you, I suspect I've met a fair number of them. Admittedly, they were all wearing masks at the party, so I couldn't be sure exactly who was who.
I bet you’ve met ten or more, you might be friends with one or two, well, at least one, your dad. OK maybe none, but at least you kinda know him (your dad)
FWIW and slightly more seriously I think the “book” is a load of old bollocks. It’s a list compiled by Epstein and Maxwell (allegedly!) of people in the USA and Europe who *might* be possible customers or punters or donors or just people they might one day hope to use. It’s a shopping list, complete with tell-tale spelling errors. Half of these people they’d never met, and never would
That’s not to deny they did snare some big fish
It's also *seriously* out of date. It has Rupert Soames as CEO of Misys.
He hasn't been at Misys since 2003. And he also wasn't CEO.
Well, yeah. The book is dated with a scribble from about 2003?
it is a period piece, and largely bullshit at that. But that doesn’t mean it is valueless. It gives an insight into the Epstein/Maxwell?/Mossad (or whoever) operation. Their targets. Socially, financially, politically, commercially and academically influential people in NY, London and elsewhere.
Goal? Try and get them on the Lolita Express. A free private jet flight to the Virgin Islands with Prince Andrew as a golf partner. The British Royals! Gotta be legit. Salve their anxieties. Don’t shower them with girls, yet
Let the golf commence. Or a lunch and a lecture and some networking. All above board but plenty of booze
In the evening, relax. Luxury food, louche music, some dancing. A very young but very pretty girl takes an interest in you. Why not? You’re a minister, mogul, top Harvard boffin, major journalist. You end up in bed. You are filmed. They show you. They have photos and videos. She, it turns out, is 17 or even 15; you, it turns out, are fucked. Epstein has you by the bollocks, and you must give him what he wants and protect him if is he in endangered by the law. In the meantime, he will supply you with more parties and more fun and more girls
So simple, yet so effective
There are so many questions about where his wealth kept coming from. We know he got paid a load of money from the bloke behind L Brands, which owns Victoria Secrets, there must have been loads more. He for instance granted Epstein full power of attorney over his affairs.
I am not shocked at all to find that one of the policemen had been a trader for 20 years. And that they had a WhatsApp group called "Covid c***ts", which had 41 Met officers in it.
Who the hell wants to see such pics! Don’t answer that question.
Some of the stuff I have seen shared on traders' chats is quite revolting. So revolting in fact that I can't bring myself to describe it.
One of the horrible things about this case is that they were so open about sharing these pictures. One wonders what else is being shared.
Were I a victim of a sexual assault I'm not at all confident that the police would keep the details confidential.
Does 'trader' have a meaning beyond the usual Arthur Daley one, please?
Professor Spector, who leads the King's College London Zoe Covid study, said: 'At the moment, we're estimating that somewhere between one in three and one in four colds are actually due to Covid.'
He told Times Radio that the UK must be 'much more open-minded about who we are testing' and 'get more people to isolate at least for a few days with cold-like symptoms'.
'That's quite a high rate of people that are currently not even bothered to get a lateral flow test, or getting a PCR test, going to parties and spreading it around,' he said.
'So if that transfers to Omicron then we're going to be compounding that problem much faster than we would need to.'
I am not shocked at all to find that one of the policemen had been a trader for 20 years. And that they had a WhatsApp group called "Covid c***ts", which had 41 Met officers in it.
Not quite right
"Jaffer you were a member of a ‘WhatsApp’ group named “covid c***s” and there were 10 members of that group including you."
That said, a mate had covid recently that presented as a very mild cold. He later got an actual cold that presented as a particularly nasty dose of flu.
But fails to explain why a party, Labour, so brilliant that it should run the country and which came second in NS last time should be encouraging its supporters to make sure it loses even more badly this time, in a leave seat, to the ultra remain party. None of this makes any sense at all. And I still think (uncertainly) that the Tories will win it.
I expect the conservatives to lose, but if Labour are a poor third due to tactical voting that will be a problem for Starmer to explain how they say they are coming back in the north
In a deeply rural Midlands constituency Labour is going to come a poor third due to tactical voting and I don't think it will be a problem at all for Starmer.
Labour's response should be something along the lines that: (1) the public is clearly disillusioned with the Conservatives and judging which party to vote for on a constituency by constituency basis (2) In OBS Labour was the beneficiary, when a tactical switch of 60% of previous LD voters clearly helped Labour to its highest vote share in the constituency for 20 years (3) In Shropshire North the position was reversed and the LDs were the beneficiary of a tactical switch by Labour supporters and that (4) while there is no formal pact between the two parties, the two results show that there is little need for one as voters who want the Conservatives out are quite capable of making appropriate tactical judgements for themselves.
However, if the Labour vote collapses to the LDs due to tactical voting then Labour could come fourth behind ReformUK as the LDs came 4th in Old Bexley and Sidcup behind ReformUK as their voters tactically voted Labour.
And your point? So what?
If Labour came fifth in a Libdem win next week, they would be too busy laughing to even put out a statement.
More likely a narrow Tory hold and if Reform UK take third and beat Labour in a seat Labour was second in in 2019 that would be a blow to Starmer
Grim Prediction: Eric Zemmour will end up assassinated, like Pim Fortuyn in Holland
Trump seems to be remarkably cavalier about that risk too - surprisingly so given that it could end up being the only remaining check and balance against the presidency if he gets his way.
The word cavalier jumps out towards me in an interesting way. By the end wasn’t Charles The first more keen to be executed than his opponents were to execute him?
Grim Prediction: Eric Zemmour will end up assassinated, like Pim Fortuyn in Holland
If that happened he would become a martyr to his supporters and the chaos that ensued could even lead to President Le Pen depending on who shot him and the counter reaction
Foreign travel is going to be a PITA or a pipe dream for a while yet.
Yep - I'm now planning for next year to be trips to Wales and Cornwall and a lot of weekends away.
I had one trip to France planned for next summer, but I'm already resigned to that not happening now.
Got a weekend to Bruges booked for late Jan, because I'm a stupid optimist (but free cancellation).
I’m off to stay with my new billionaire friend in Ibiza at the weekend. My feeling now is Fuck it
Don’t get a runny nose, whatever you do. I’m not sure we can cope with another week of whiney Sean posts as you traverse the River Styx.
it’s actually Menorca - I was so delirious with excitement I got confused - what makes it so excitingly interesting is that I am joining a ayahuasca ceremony. First time in my life. I confess to a soupçon of nerves
I hear it makes all sorts of inner personalities to come out ...
I do hope I don’t “overwhelm” the shaman. Or, indeed, become so scared of the hallucinatory jaguar god eating my liver from my thrashing body i never return to sanity (yes yes, I know, I know)
OTOH I have friends who absolutely SWEAR by ayahuasca
My understanding is the stuff used in Europe isn't actually ayahuasca.
I think it is if you are worth £2.3bn and you are an American mogul fascinated by entheogens
There’s some interesting theories tying hallucinogens to Neolithic cave paintings, with some suggesting they may even have been the trigger for expanding human consciousness 40 odd millennia ago. Certainly they seemed to play a fairly central role in most ancient societies, until really relatively recently.
I guess Leon you are well aware of the parallels drawn by many between historic shamanistic depictions of DMT elves / fairies, and the classic modern “grey”. DMT is naturally created by the brain which opens the door to abductions being self generated hallucinations from overproduction of DMT. But that doesn’t explain radar and video data, so there are more exotic explanations out there too… If you end up meeting Mother Ayahuasca ask her what it’s all about won’t you?
I am not shocked at all to find that one of the policemen had been a trader for 20 years. And that they had a WhatsApp group called "Covid c***ts", which had 41 Met officers in it.
Who the hell wants to see such pics! Don’t answer that question.
Some of the stuff I have seen shared on traders' chats is quite revolting. So revolting in fact that I can't bring myself to describe it.
One of the horrible things about this case is that they were so open about sharing these pictures. One wonders what else is being shared.
Were I a victim of a sexual assault I'm not at all confident that the police would keep the details confidential.
Does 'trader' have a meaning beyond the usual Arthur Daley one, please?
It could mean a market trader or City trader. It is not clear which.
I am not shocked at all to find that one of the policemen had been a trader for 20 years. And that they had a WhatsApp group called "Covid c***ts", which had 41 Met officers in it.
Not quite right
"Jaffer you were a member of a ‘WhatsApp’ group named “covid c***s” and there were 10 members of that group including you."
Apologies. There was a second one.
See para.12 - "Jaffer you were a member of a ‘WhatsApp’ group named “covid c***s” and there were 10 members of that group including you. The others in that group were not police officers. Jaffer and Lewis you were both members of a WhatsApp group called the “A Team”. The group had some 41 members from the Metropolitan police."
The photos were shared with both groups.
41 members of the Met received those photos. It would be interesting to know how many of those Met officers complained or raised a concern and how many shared them with others.
Bear in mind that these were photos of a crime scene. Quite apart from the appalling abuse of two dead girls to share photos of potential evidence outside the police force is completely unprofessional.
I am not shocked at all to find that one of the policemen had been a trader for 20 years. And that they had a WhatsApp group called "Covid c***ts", which had 41 Met officers in it.
Who the hell wants to see such pics! Don’t answer that question.
Some of the stuff I have seen shared on traders' chats is quite revolting. So revolting in fact that I can't bring myself to describe it.
One of the horrible things about this case is that they were so open about sharing these pictures. One wonders what else is being shared.
Were I a victim of a sexual assault I'm not at all confident that the police would keep the details confidential.
Does 'trader' have a meaning beyond the usual Arthur Daley one, please?
It could mean a market trader or City trader. It is not clear which.
Pippa Crerar @PippaCrerar · 4h Sources told me last week there were “many social gatherings” in Downing Street - even suggesting there were “always parties” in the flat Mr Johnson shares with wife, adding: “Carrie’s addicted to them”.
A spokesman for Mrs Johnson described the claims as "total nonsense".
I know at least half a dozen people in Epstein’s black book. I’ve met maybe 2 dozen. The idea they are all pedos is QAnon territory
If that is the sole basis for this “accusation” by Arcuri she is about to reap the libel law whirlwind
What do you reckon, two-thirds? three quarters?
As most of them are multimillionaires, and quite a few billionaires, I’d rein in any such commentary
In fact I was slightly surprised to see that you were NOT on the list. Yet yer dad made it?
Epstein knew where the real power lies. Lib Dems in Bedfordshire
FWIW, I don't know who's in the 'Book', but as with you, I suspect I've met a fair number of them. Admittedly, they were all wearing masks at the party, so I couldn't be sure exactly who was who.
I bet you’ve met ten or more, you might be friends with one or two, well, at least one, your dad. OK maybe none, but at least you kinda know him (your dad)
FWIW and slightly more seriously I think the “book” is a load of old bollocks. It’s a list compiled by Epstein and Maxwell (allegedly!) of people in the USA and Europe who *might* be possible customers or punters or donors or just people they might one day hope to use. It’s a shopping list, complete with tell-tale spelling errors. Half of these people they’d never met, and never would
That’s not to deny they did snare some big fish
It's also *seriously* out of date. It has Rupert Soames as CEO of Misys.
He hasn't been at Misys since 2003. And he also wasn't CEO.
Well, yeah. The book is dated with a scribble from about 2003?
it is a period piece, and largely bullshit at that. But that doesn’t mean it is valueless. It gives an insight into the Epstein/Maxwell?/Mossad (or whoever) operation. Their targets. Socially, financially, politically, commercially and academically influential people in NY, London and elsewhere.
Goal? Try and get them on the Lolita Express. A free private jet flight to the Virgin Islands with Prince Andrew as a golf partner. The British Royals! Gotta be legit. Salve their anxieties. Don’t shower them with girls, yet
Let the golf commence. Or a lunch and a lecture and some networking. All above board but plenty of booze
In the evening, relax. Luxury food, louche music, some dancing. A very young but very pretty girl takes an interest in you. Why not? You’re a minister, mogul, top Harvard boffin, major journalist. You end up in bed. You are filmed. They show you. They have photos and videos. She, it turns out, is 17 or even 15; you, it turns out, are fucked. Epstein has you by the bollocks, and you must give him what he wants and protect him if is he in endangered by the law. In the meantime, he will supply you with more parties and more fun and more girls
So simple, yet so effective
There are so many questions about where his wealth kept coming from. We know he got paid a load of money from the bloke behind L Brands, which owns Victoria Secrets, there must have been loads more. He for instance granted Epstein full power of attorney over his affairs.
Money laundering.
Mossad
That too. More than a hint of BCCI about him. It probably suited some authorities to have him launder money and have a hold over others.
But fails to explain why a party, Labour, so brilliant that it should run the country and which came second in NS last time should be encouraging its supporters to make sure it loses even more badly this time, in a leave seat, to the ultra remain party. None of this makes any sense at all. And I still think (uncertainly) that the Tories will win it.
I expect the conservatives to lose, but if Labour are a poor third due to tactical voting that will be a problem for Starmer to explain how they say they are coming back in the north
In a deeply rural Midlands constituency Labour is going to come a poor third due to tactical voting and I don't think it will be a problem at all for Starmer.
Labour's response should be something along the lines that: (1) the public is clearly disillusioned with the Conservatives and judging which party to vote for on a constituency by constituency basis (2) In OBS Labour was the beneficiary, when a tactical switch of 60% of previous LD voters clearly helped Labour to its highest vote share in the constituency for 20 years (3) In Shropshire North the position was reversed and the LDs were the beneficiary of a tactical switch by Labour supporters and that (4) while there is no formal pact between the two parties, the two results show that there is little need for one as voters who want the Conservatives out are quite capable of making appropriate tactical judgements for themselves.
However, if the Labour vote collapses to the LDs due to tactical voting then Labour could come fourth behind ReformUK as the LDs came 4th in Old Bexley and Sidcup behind ReformUK as their voters tactically voted Labour.
And your point? So what?
If Labour came fifth in a Libdem win next week, they would be too busy laughing to even put out a statement.
More likely a narrow Tory hold and if Reform UK take third and beat Labour in a seat Labour was second in in 2019 that would be a blow to Starmer
Alright mate 👍🏻 Spin early and spin often. 😍
Even funnier than my two hundred pounds will be seeing my brothers face at Christmas when I remind him libdems beat Conservatives. Again.
Grim Prediction: Eric Zemmour will end up assassinated, like Pim Fortuyn in Holland
If that happened he would become a martyr to his supporters and the chaos that ensued could even lead to President Le Pen depending on who shot him and the counter reaction
That said, a mate had covid recently that presented as a very mild cold. He later got an actual cold that presented as a particularly nasty dose of flu.
What's the difference between SARS-COV2 once your immune system has seen a huge amount of the spike protein via boosted immunisation & a naive case of HCoV-OC43 ? One would be classed as a "cold", the other "Covid" - but which is more dangerous ?
Grim Prediction: Eric Zemmour will end up assassinated, like Pim Fortuyn in Holland
If that happened he would become a martyr to his supporters and the chaos that ensued could even lead to President Le Pen depending on who shot him and the counter reaction
Was that Charles the firsts reasoning?
Well it did eventually end up with his son Charles IInd on the throne
Comments
Pray to your god, gods, or lack-of-gods
Were he to prevail in his promised libel suit, would that amplification be then disregarded as far as damages were concerned ?
https://s3.documentcloud.org/documents/1508273/jeffrey-epsteins-little-black-book-redacted.pdf
I bet you’ve met ten or more, you might be friends with one or two, well, at least one, your dad. OK maybe none, but at least you kinda know him (your dad)
FWIW and slightly more seriously I think the “book” is a load of old bollocks. It’s a list compiled by Epstein and Maxwell (allegedly!) of people in the USA and Europe who *might* be possible customers or punters or donors or just people they might one day hope to use. It’s a shopping list, complete with tell-tale spelling errors. Half of these people they’d never met, and never would
That’s not to deny they did snare some big fish
The biggest point is whether she’s worth suing. Elon Musk = clearly worth suing. Jennifer Acuri = not so much.
Sorry, I know that's not very catchy.
- “Finland has spent the past five years selecting a new fighter with air-to-surface and air-to-sea capabilities to defend a 1,300-kilometer (800-mile) border with Russia, seeking to deter any aggression from its eastern neighbor. The jets will replace 64 Boeing Co. F/A-18 Hornets that will be retired in stages between 2025 and 2030, with the new aircraft set to be in service until the 2060s.”
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-12-05/finland-is-said-to-pick-lockheed-martin-f-35-jets-iltalehti
Labour's response should be something along the lines that: (1) the public is clearly disillusioned with the Conservatives and judging which party to vote for on a constituency by constituency basis (2) In OBS Labour was the beneficiary, when a tactical switch of 60% of previous LD voters clearly helped Labour to its highest vote share in the constituency for 20 years (3) In Shropshire North the position was reversed and the LDs were the beneficiary of a tactical switch by Labour supporters and that (4) while there is no formal pact between the two parties, the two results show that there is little need for one as voters who want the Conservatives out are quite capable of making appropriate tactical judgements for themselves.
But hold on, they're not wearing uniforms so they're civilians under arms and we can still shoot them.
Didn’t spot a blog proprietor.
Have you tried it? Do you really vomit everywhere and crap yourself? I have heard varying accounts, some quite, er, unsettling
https://www.skysports.com/football/news/11881/12488195/jude-bellingham-police-investigate-borussia-dortmund-midfielders-comments-on-referee-felix-zwayer-after-bayern-munich-loss
He hasn't been at Misys since 2003. And he also wasn't CEO.
I was being very childish
On the other hand, if UK schools were closed early to all children then parents who had done the right thing by getting their children vaccinated should be absolutely seething at the failure of our Government to take on those who didn't.
it is a period piece, and largely bullshit at that. But that doesn’t mean it is valueless. It gives an insight into the Epstein/Maxwell?/Mossad (or whoever) operation. Their targets. Socially, financially, politically, commercially and academically influential people in NY, London and elsewhere.
Goal? Try and get them on the Lolita Express. A free private jet flight to the Virgin Islands with Prince Andrew as a golf partner. The British Royals! Gotta be legit. Salve their anxieties. Don’t shower them with girls, yet
Let the golf commence. Or a lunch and a lecture and some networking. All above board but plenty of booze
In the evening, relax. Luxury food, louche music, some dancing. A very young but very pretty girl takes an interest in you. Why not? You’re a minister, mogul, top Harvard boffin, major journalist. You end up in bed. You are filmed. They show you. They have photos and videos. She, it turns out, is 17 or even 15; you, it turns out, are fucked. Epstein has you by the bollocks, and you must give him what he wants and protect him if is he in endangered by the law. In the meantime, he will supply you with more parties and more fun and more girls
So simple, yet so effective
https://twitter.com/jebadoo2/status/1467904641996308494?s=21
I am not shocked at all to find that one of the policemen had been a trader for 20 years. And that they had a WhatsApp group called "Covid c***ts", which had 41 Met officers in it.
Beth Rigby
@BethRigby
Omicron causing up to 1,000 infections a day.
Professor Francois Balloux, director of UCL Genetics Institute says #omicron outbreak well underway, doubling every three to four days and will quickly put NHS under pressure, via
@SkyNewsThomas
===
Balloux has been one of the more restrained, sober medical commentators iirc.
Bleak.
We are looking at Jan lockdown I fear.
Don’t answer that question.
I rather recommend Graham Hancock on the subject
https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B004EYSYBK/ref=dp-kindle-redirect?_encoding=UTF8&btkr=1
only a couple of notes on kindle, and he is a highly intelligent writer. Lots to say about gobekli tepe.
"Supernatural" is a great read.
But it was "Underworld" that got me interested in Ice Age coastlines.
Anyway, @Leon will find this interesting:
Study suggests psychedelics promote positive mental health through increased spirituality and emotion regulation
https://www.psypost.org/2021/12/study-suggests-psychedelics-promote-positive-mental-health-through-increased-spirituality-and-emotion-regulation-62200
Cape Fear marks the seventh collaboration between Scorsese and De Niro. The film was a commercial success and garnered positive reviews, receiving Oscar and Golden Globe Award nominations for Best Actor (De Niro) and Best Supporting Actress (Juliette Lewis).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cape_Fear_(1991_film)
He told Times Radio that the UK must be 'much more open-minded about who we are testing' and 'get more people to isolate at least for a few days with cold-like symptoms'.
'That's quite a high rate of people that are currently not even bothered to get a lateral flow test, or getting a PCR test, going to parties and spreading it around,' he said.
'So if that transfers to Omicron then we're going to be compounding that problem much faster than we would need to.'
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10281723/One-four-colds-actually-Covid.html
@hendopolis
EXPRESS: Bank of England warns price rises will bite even harder #TomorrowsPapersToday
===
Narrator: Only a few weeks/months ago the BoE was saying all this was transitory and nothing to see here guv.
One of the horrible things about this case is that they were so open about sharing these pictures. One wonders what else is being shared.
Were I a victim of a sexual assault I'm not at all confident that the police would keep the details confidential.
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/politics/16958243/harriet-harman-set-to-quit-parliament-after-40-years/
"Jaffer you were a member of a ‘WhatsApp’ group named “covid c***s”
and there were 10 members of that group including you."
I guess Leon you are well aware of the parallels drawn by many between historic shamanistic depictions of DMT elves / fairies, and the classic modern “grey”. DMT is naturally created by the brain which opens the door to abductions being self generated hallucinations from overproduction of DMT. But that doesn’t explain radar and video data, so there are more exotic explanations out there too… If you end up meeting Mother Ayahuasca ask her what it’s all about won’t you?
See para.12 - "Jaffer you were a member of a ‘WhatsApp’ group named “covid c***s” and there were 10 members of that group including you. The others in that group were not police officers. Jaffer and Lewis you were both members of a WhatsApp group called the “A Team”. The group had some 41 members from the Metropolitan police."
The photos were shared with both groups.
41 members of the Met received those photos. It would be interesting to know how many of those Met officers complained or raised a concern and how many shared them with others.
Bear in mind that these were photos of a crime scene. Quite apart from the appalling abuse of two dead girls to share photos of potential evidence outside the police force is completely unprofessional.
Pippa Crerar
@PippaCrerar
·
4h
Sources told me last week there were “many social gatherings” in Downing Street - even suggesting there were “always parties” in the flat Mr Johnson shares with wife, adding: “Carrie’s addicted to them”.
A spokesman for Mrs Johnson described the claims as "total nonsense".
Even funnier than my two hundred pounds will be seeing my brothers face at Christmas when I remind him libdems beat Conservatives. Again.
On topic it. I bloody hope it happens
PS I do support many things you say HYUFD
Presidential election
Macron (LREM-RE): 23% (-1)
Le Pen (RN-ID): 18% (-2)
Pécresse (LR-EPP): 14% (+3)
Zemmour (*): 14% (+1)
Melenchon (FI): 11%
Hidalgo (PS): 5%
https://twitter.com/EuropeElects/status/1467997899397214212?s=20
One would be classed as a "cold", the other "Covid" - but which is more dangerous ?