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How the most ill-tempered PMQs in years is being reported – politicalbetting.com

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  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,840
    This bit is fascinating. His Premiership in a nutshell.
    He pours out good intentions and platitudes. When it comes to doing owt though "Can you do it for me? It's a bit difficult and complex."
  • Johnson now claiming the lack of mask in Hexham was a mistake that lasted six seconds.

    So why then did the "I'm the" Deputy Prime Minister get sent out to do the media round insisting the PM had followed the rules.

    He wouldn't have to sit there looking his usual gormless saying "he followed the rules" as they repeat the clip proving he didn't" had as he just claimed he had only taken it off for 5 seconds and had realised it was a mistake.

    Another lie.
    The lies are coming faster by the day. Eventually they will collide into one big enormous mess and he'll be done.
    I doubt an incident over mask wearing will see Boris lose his premiership, but the idiotic way he dealt with the Paterson affair and his steps since including the change in standards may well
  • eekeek Posts: 24,797
    eek said:

    Hmm, I remember some PBers saying the PM didn't break the rules.

    On his visit to Hexham hospital Boris Johnson claims that “there was barely 30 seconds when I wasn’t wearing a mask… and I apologised for it.”

    Until this moment Downing Street has not even admitted that he broke the rules.


    https://twitter.com/AdamBienkov/status/1460993252237234182

    Is it a crime to wilfully mislead the house?
    or say a select committee?
  • Nigelb said:

    Helpful update from @PA: "The Government sought to clarify that it has not lost the minutes of a meeting between Randox and a health minister, only that it cannot find them at the moment."

    https://twitter.com/PippaCrerar/status/1460983127153823746

    Does that mean some poor bugger is trying to make them up from scratch ?
    See my post at 3pm.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,585

    Helpful update from @PA: "The Government sought to clarify that it has not lost the minutes of a meeting between Randox and a health minister, only that it cannot find them at the moment."

    https://twitter.com/PippaCrerar/status/1460983127153823746

    Helpful update from @PA: "The Government sought to clarify that it has not lost the minutes of a meeting between Randox and a health minister, only that it cannot find them at the moment."

    https://twitter.com/PippaCrerar/status/1460983127153823746

    Bullshit. "I have been unable to locate the formal minutes" means there are no minutes. Now then, let us ask why that might be the case...

    Liaison committee coming up. Get your popcorn ready.
    Many many years ago I was involved in a mediation where transcripts of board meetings were required from the other side.

    They sent everything we needed except the board meeting transcripts, we had to pester and pester them, their replies followed as such

    1) We cannot find said minutes

    then

    2) We cannot still find said minutes

    then

    3) We have found said minutes, but only in a digital format, however it is password protected and the person who created the password no longer works for us, and we cannot locate them.

    (We then asked the courts to compel them to name that employee)

    4) Oh, we've remembered the password, here's the file emailed to you.

    We took a look at the word file (helpfully they had left track changes on) and it was clear this file was created fewer than 48 hours ago and then kept on adding things to it.
    Yep. I've suspected for a few weeks now that this could sink Johnson and I'm increasingly confident this will now happen.

    His liaison committee is already not going well. "We will need more of your time Prime Minister" responded to with such a look of utter panic that the chair suggested "you can give short answers". And then straight into "is it not a conflict of interest that you are the ultimate arbiter for the ministerial code."

    He looks contrite and weary.

    Contrite would be seriously out of character.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,404

    Julia Hartley-Brewer
    @JuliaHB1
    ·
    49m
    BREAKING: The end of elite women's sport has just been announced.

    Transgender athletes should not have to lower testosterone to compete, IOC says as it changes guidelines

    So there's the trade off:

    Keep your tackle and make it to the Olympic semi-final.

    Get it chopped off and win a medal.
  • Johnson now claiming the lack of mask in Hexham was a mistake that lasted six seconds.

    So why then did the "I'm the" Deputy Prime Minister get sent out to do the media round insisting the PM had followed the rules.

    He wouldn't have to sit there looking his usual gormless saying "he followed the rules" as they repeat the clip proving he didn't" had as he just claimed he had only taken it off for 5 seconds and had realised it was a mistake.

    Another lie.
    The lies are coming faster by the day. Eventually they will collide into one big enormous mess and he'll be done.
    I doubt an incident over mask wearing will see Boris lose his premiership, but the idiotic way he dealt with the Paterson affair and his steps since including the change in standards may well
    But it is the same modus operandi.

    Break the rules, deny breaking them, then a few days later and admit it you got it wrong.
  • eekeek Posts: 24,797

    Nigelb said:

    Helpful update from @PA: "The Government sought to clarify that it has not lost the minutes of a meeting between Randox and a health minister, only that it cannot find them at the moment."

    https://twitter.com/PippaCrerar/status/1460983127153823746

    Does that mean some poor bugger is trying to make them up from scratch ?
    See my post at 3pm.
    When faking a document.

    disconnect your computer from the internet and change the system clock
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,812
    Surely this flailing collapse is some mistake.

    We were assured yesterday that Boris had “shot Keir’s fox”.

    Meanwhile, the “lost minutes” regarding the Randox meeting are literally unbelievable. At what point does Lord Bethell receive police interest?
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 32,739
    Yep. He's throwing a lot of people under the bus today. Owen Paterson, Geoffrey Cox, Mark Spencer, Jacob Rees-Mogg...and now his No.10 press office. https://twitter.com/nadinebh_/status/1460993852681113611
  • Quite shocking to see a PM pushed around like this from pillar to post. Apart from anything else he is hopeless at being a conservative.
  • Scott_xP said:

    Yep. He's throwing a lot of people under the bus today. Owen Paterson, Geoffrey Cox, Mark Spencer, Jacob Rees-Mogg...and now his No.10 press office. https://twitter.com/nadinebh_/status/1460993852681113611

    Time someone did
  • Now they're pulling him apart about women's safety. A lot of press releases but no investment into the CPS, the police, the courts to make up for a decade of punitive cuts in their ability to work effectively.

    Johnson blames the CPS, the police and the courts for "passing the buck"...
  • Andrew Neil has called GB News the “single biggest mistake” of his 50 years in journalism, saying that that the station is quickly heading in a “Fox News direction” under founders and investors that resemble a “Ukip tribute band”

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/gb-news-was-biggest-mistake-of-my-career-says-andrew-neil-j9lx7nwnx
  • kjhkjh Posts: 10,467

    Andrew Neil has called GB News the “single biggest mistake” of his 50 years in journalism, saying that that the station is quickly heading in a “Fox News direction” under founders and investors that resemble a “Ukip tribute band”

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/gb-news-was-biggest-mistake-of-my-career-says-andrew-neil-j9lx7nwnx

    How on earth did he not see that coming?
  • darkagedarkage Posts: 4,748

    darkage said:

    eek said:

    Helpful update from @PA: "The Government sought to clarify that it has not lost the minutes of a meeting between Randox and a health minister, only that it cannot find them at the moment."

    https://twitter.com/PippaCrerar/status/1460983127153823746

    Helpful update from @PA: "The Government sought to clarify that it has not lost the minutes of a meeting between Randox and a health minister, only that it cannot find them at the moment."

    https://twitter.com/PippaCrerar/status/1460983127153823746

    Bullshit. "I have been unable to locate the formal minutes" means there are no minutes. Now then, let us ask why that might be the case...

    Liaison committee coming up. Get your popcorn ready.
    Many many years ago I was involved in a mediation where transcripts of board meetings were required from the other side.

    They sent everything we needed except the board meeting transcripts, we had to pester and pester them, their replies followed as such

    1) We cannot find said minutes

    then

    2) We cannot still find said minutes

    then

    3) We have found said minutes, but only in a digital format, however it is password protected and the person who created the password no longer works for us, and we cannot locate them.

    (We then asked the courts to compel them to name that employee)

    4) Oh, we've remembered the password, here's the file emailed to you.

    We took a look at the word file (helpfully they had left track changes on) and it was clear this file was created fewer than 48 hours ago and then kept on adding things to it.
    Yep. I've suspected for a few weeks now that this could sink Johnson and I'm increasingly confident this will now happen.

    His liaison committee is already not going well. "We will need more of your time Prime Minister" responded to with such a look of utter panic that the chair suggested "you can give short answers". And then straight into "is it not a conflict of interest that you are the ultimate arbiter for the ministerial code."

    He looks contrite and weary.

    Contrite is probably the best look in a very bad situation to get to the other side of this stupid mess.

    When in a hole, stop digging.
    Would anyone on this site - except for HYUFD be at all upset (or surprised) if Boris went?

    I seriously can't think of any other poster here who thinks Boris is a suitable or qualified person for the job of PM...
    I wouldn't say he is either suitable or qualifed by historical standards, but I would say that he remains the appropriate person to lead the Conservative Party. In the run up and aftermath to Brexit he has embarked on a particular path, and remains the only person in the Conservative Party with the political skills to negotiate the various big intractable problems that follow from it. I also think that, in the end, he is the only person who can brush off this sleaze thing, because there is always sleaze and rule bending everywhere you go digging in public life, any supposed quest for purity in public life will ultimately be little more than a performance for the public who, in the end, aren't particularly gullible.


    Political skills to negotiate big intractable problems ?

    No - animal skill and cunning to please people from day to day - something which eventually catches up with you without longer-term or strategic foresight, and which is what happened starting with the Paterson error.
    How exactly was he able to get Brexit done? It completely defeated Ms May, a far more conventionally skilled politician. It may have been animal skill and cunning, but it worked. Not only did it work, but he reinvented the working class appeal of the Conservative Party at the same time. These are not accidents, they are the product of some strategic foresight. It may be that this was actually down to Dominic Cummings, and his big error may have actually been to lose him.

    I remain of the view that Boris will ultimately shake off all this sleaze stuff, but concede that Starmer is now looking dangerous.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 14,772

    Julia Hartley-Brewer
    @JuliaHB1
    ·
    49m
    BREAKING: The end of elite women's sport has just been announced.

    Transgender athletes should not have to lower testosterone to compete, IOC says as it changes guidelines

    So there's the trade off:

    Keep your tackle and make it to the Olympic semi-final.

    Get it chopped off and win a medal.
    The International Athletics Federation still have their own testosterone rule that was stricter than the one dropped by the IOC, but I think the IOC are saying you'd need copious formal evidence to exclude even pre-op transgender athletes.

    So in your scenario they might not even need to sacrifice the dangly bits.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,812
    kjh said:

    Andrew Neil has called GB News the “single biggest mistake” of his 50 years in journalism, saying that that the station is quickly heading in a “Fox News direction” under founders and investors that resemble a “Ukip tribute band”

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/gb-news-was-biggest-mistake-of-my-career-says-andrew-neil-j9lx7nwnx

    How on earth did he not see that coming?
    As predicted by me and many others on here.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,603
    I really, really hope that Boris is removed from office sooner rather than later. The ineptitude and corruption that the government is dragging this great nation through under his watch is unbearable. Everyday there's new revelations about how some minister/ex-minister/MP is or was on the take.
  • FUCK BUSINESS BORIS!
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,840

    Julia Hartley-Brewer
    @JuliaHB1
    ·
    49m
    BREAKING: The end of elite women's sport has just been announced.

    Transgender athletes should not have to lower testosterone to compete, IOC says as it changes guidelines

    So there's the trade off:

    Keep your tackle and make it to the Olympic semi-final.

    Get it chopped off and win a medal.
    The International Athletics Federation still have their own testosterone rule that was stricter than the one dropped by the IOC, but I think the IOC are saying you'd need copious formal evidence to exclude even pre-op transgender athletes.

    So in your scenario they might not even need to sacrifice the dangly bits.
    Indeed. There have been several female athletes who have fallen foul of this rule.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 14,772
    How do you accidentally take a mask off?
  • The RMT union has just dropped some 2nd jobs analysis on the Shipping Minister, Nusrat Ghani MP

    She was paid £60,000 a year for 84 hours work (£714 per hour) for ship design firm Artemis Technologies Ltd

    The RMT point out that Artemis has received "significant" public funding


    https://twitter.com/josiahmortimer/status/1460998893852934145
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,812
    edited November 2021

    Johnson now claiming the lack of mask in Hexham was a mistake that lasted six seconds.

    So why then did the "I'm the" Deputy Prime Minister get sent out to do the media round insisting the PM had followed the rules.

    He wouldn't have to sit there looking his usual gormless saying "he followed the rules" as they repeat the clip proving he didn't" had as he just claimed he had only taken it off for 5 seconds and had realised it was a mistake.

    Another lie.
    The lies are coming faster by the day. Eventually they will collide into one big enormous mess and he'll be done.
    I doubt an incident over mask wearing will see Boris lose his premiership, but the idiotic way he dealt with the Paterson affair and his steps since including the change in standards may well
    Do you agree Big G that it is appallingly arrogant for the government to put up Dominic Raab to lie in our faces?

    It was obvious Boris broke the rules. Why can’t this government tell the truth for once?
  • Johnson now claiming the lack of mask in Hexham was a mistake that lasted six seconds.

    So why then did the "I'm the" Deputy Prime Minister get sent out to do the media round insisting the PM had followed the rules.

    He wouldn't have to sit there looking his usual gormless saying "he followed the rules" as they repeat the clip proving he didn't" had as he just claimed he had only taken it off for 5 seconds and had realised it was a mistake.

    Another lie.
    The lies are coming faster by the day. Eventually they will collide into one big enormous mess and he'll be done.
    I doubt an incident over mask wearing will see Boris lose his premiership, but the idiotic way he dealt with the Paterson affair and his steps since including the change in standards may well
    How about the idiotic way he and his ministers lied about it?

    Wearing a mask in hospital is a given. Everyone has to, do not kiss your relatives edicts etc etc

    Johnson told to wear one - repeatedly - by the staff. Backed up by the hospital rules. Mandated by the legal requirements on NHS Trusts set by his government.

    Johnson doesn't wear one. Gets roundly castigated for doing so - front pages, commentators, the lot. Sends that gormless idiot "I'm the" Deputy Prime Minister onto GMTV. Repeats and repeats that the PM followed the rules as they repeatedly prove he didn't. Gormless doesn't get it even as the presenters explain it to him

    Now he says "I did wear one, but took it off very briefly" (a lie) and then realised it was a mistake so put it back on (a lie). And then sent Raaaab out for more lies.

    Yes its only a mask. But the lies are building. Proof that the PM has no interest in rules that are for you and me but not for him are building. The disconnect between him and everyone else are building.
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 8,480
    edited November 2021
    darkage said:

    darkage said:

    eek said:

    Helpful update from @PA: "The Government sought to clarify that it has not lost the minutes of a meeting between Randox and a health minister, only that it cannot find them at the moment."

    https://twitter.com/PippaCrerar/status/1460983127153823746

    Helpful update from @PA: "The Government sought to clarify that it has not lost the minutes of a meeting between Randox and a health minister, only that it cannot find them at the moment."

    https://twitter.com/PippaCrerar/status/1460983127153823746

    Bullshit. "I have been unable to locate the formal minutes" means there are no minutes. Now then, let us ask why that might be the case...

    Liaison committee coming up. Get your popcorn ready.
    Many many years ago I was involved in a mediation where transcripts of board meetings were required from the other side.

    They sent everything we needed except the board meeting transcripts, we had to pester and pester them, their replies followed as such

    1) We cannot find said minutes

    then

    2) We cannot still find said minutes

    then

    3) We have found said minutes, but only in a digital format, however it is password protected and the person who created the password no longer works for us, and we cannot locate them.

    (We then asked the courts to compel them to name that employee)

    4) Oh, we've remembered the password, here's the file emailed to you.

    We took a look at the word file (helpfully they had left track changes on) and it was clear this file was created fewer than 48 hours ago and then kept on adding things to it.
    Yep. I've suspected for a few weeks now that this could sink Johnson and I'm increasingly confident this will now happen.

    His liaison committee is already not going well. "We will need more of your time Prime Minister" responded to with such a look of utter panic that the chair suggested "you can give short answers". And then straight into "is it not a conflict of interest that you are the ultimate arbiter for the ministerial code."

    He looks contrite and weary.

    Contrite is probably the best look in a very bad situation to get to the other side of this stupid mess.

    When in a hole, stop digging.
    Would anyone on this site - except for HYUFD be at all upset (or surprised) if Boris went?

    I seriously can't think of any other poster here who thinks Boris is a suitable or qualified person for the job of PM...
    I wouldn't say he is either suitable or qualifed by historical standards, but I would say that he remains the appropriate person to lead the Conservative Party. In the run up and aftermath to Brexit he has embarked on a particular path, and remains the only person in the Conservative Party with the political skills to negotiate the various big intractable problems that follow from it. I also think that, in the end, he is the only person who can brush off this sleaze thing, because there is always sleaze and rule bending everywhere you go digging in public life, any supposed quest for purity in public life will ultimately be little more than a performance for the public who, in the end, aren't particularly gullible.


    Political skills to negotiate big intractable problems ?

    No - animal skill and cunning to please people from day to day - something which eventually catches up with you without longer-term or strategic foresight, and which is what happened starting with the Paterson error.
    How exactly was he able to get Brexit done? It completely defeated Ms May, a far more conventionally skilled politician. It may have been animal skill and cunning, but it worked. Not only did it work, but he reinvented the working class appeal of the Conservative Party at the same time. These are not accidents, they are the product of some strategic foresight. It may be that this was actually down to Dominic Cummings, and his big error may have actually been to lose him.

    I remain of the view that Boris will ultimately shake off all this sleaze stuff, but concede that Starmer is now looking dangerous.
    He got it done by creating a very flimsy, day-to-day facade of all threads having been tied up and everything being for the best in the best of all possible worlds, and having significant parts of the media backing the illusion. These things tend to bite back at you, like overstuffed and chaotic cupboards whose contents come crashing down on you, when you try to open them again after a year or two.

    His chaotic, short-term, people-pleasing in all sorts of other areas like Paterson, is much the same.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,074
    Anyway, an interesting stand-off this afternoon in the Cyclefree household.

    The hound - Husband's hound - made a bit of a mess in my car, which Husband was using. Car due to go to garage today so Husband got in a grump this morning at having to clean up dog mess. Car is now being valeted and will return later.

    Meanwhile, the shitey cushion on which Hound was seated is in driveway being an eyesore in my garden.

    Husband commented that "it would need washing". I love his use of the passive tense. I have no intention of washing it myself of course. If the birds busily picking bits of branches and berries for their winter habitat were to take it away I'd be delighted.

    How long will I have to wait before Husband decides to wash it himself or, better still, throw it away?
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,404
    kjh said:

    Andrew Neil has called GB News the “single biggest mistake” of his 50 years in journalism, saying that that the station is quickly heading in a “Fox News direction” under founders and investors that resemble a “Ukip tribute band”

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/gb-news-was-biggest-mistake-of-my-career-says-andrew-neil-j9lx7nwnx

    How on earth did he not see that coming?
    His ego got in the way.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,842

    The RMT union has just dropped some 2nd jobs analysis on the Shipping Minister, Nusrat Ghani MP

    She was paid £60,000 a year for 84 hours work (£714 per hour) for ship design firm Artemis Technologies Ltd

    The RMT point out that Artemis has received "significant" public funding


    https://twitter.com/josiahmortimer/status/1460998893852934145

    It absolubtely stinks to high heaven. I'm voting for Sir Mishcon Starmer next time round.
  • The country would be far better served by appointing this Committee to act as the cabinet and vote one of them as Prime Minister
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,153
    Nigelb said:

    Helpful update from @PA: "The Government sought to clarify that it has not lost the minutes of a meeting between Randox and a health minister, only that it cannot find them at the moment."

    https://twitter.com/PippaCrerar/status/1460983127153823746

    Does that mean some poor bugger is trying to make them up from scratch ?
    Interesting suggestion it's so sensitive partly because of the high perceived profile of Randox in terms of charging ordinary folk for tests:

    https://twitter.com/nadinebh_/status/1460955297246289922
  • sauve qui peut....

    Yep. He's throwing a lot of people under the bus today. Owen Paterson, Geoffrey Cox, Mark Spencer, Jacob Rees-Mogg...and now his No.10 press office.

    https://twitter.com/paulwaugh/status/1460997638493544449?s=20
  • darkage said:

    darkage said:

    eek said:

    Helpful update from @PA: "The Government sought to clarify that it has not lost the minutes of a meeting between Randox and a health minister, only that it cannot find them at the moment."

    https://twitter.com/PippaCrerar/status/1460983127153823746

    Helpful update from @PA: "The Government sought to clarify that it has not lost the minutes of a meeting between Randox and a health minister, only that it cannot find them at the moment."

    https://twitter.com/PippaCrerar/status/1460983127153823746

    Bullshit. "I have been unable to locate the formal minutes" means there are no minutes. Now then, let us ask why that might be the case...

    Liaison committee coming up. Get your popcorn ready.
    Many many years ago I was involved in a mediation where transcripts of board meetings were required from the other side.

    They sent everything we needed except the board meeting transcripts, we had to pester and pester them, their replies followed as such

    1) We cannot find said minutes

    then

    2) We cannot still find said minutes

    then

    3) We have found said minutes, but only in a digital format, however it is password protected and the person who created the password no longer works for us, and we cannot locate them.

    (We then asked the courts to compel them to name that employee)

    4) Oh, we've remembered the password, here's the file emailed to you.

    We took a look at the word file (helpfully they had left track changes on) and it was clear this file was created fewer than 48 hours ago and then kept on adding things to it.
    Yep. I've suspected for a few weeks now that this could sink Johnson and I'm increasingly confident this will now happen.

    His liaison committee is already not going well. "We will need more of your time Prime Minister" responded to with such a look of utter panic that the chair suggested "you can give short answers". And then straight into "is it not a conflict of interest that you are the ultimate arbiter for the ministerial code."

    He looks contrite and weary.

    Contrite is probably the best look in a very bad situation to get to the other side of this stupid mess.

    When in a hole, stop digging.
    Would anyone on this site - except for HYUFD be at all upset (or surprised) if Boris went?

    I seriously can't think of any other poster here who thinks Boris is a suitable or qualified person for the job of PM...
    I wouldn't say he is either suitable or qualifed by historical standards, but I would say that he remains the appropriate person to lead the Conservative Party. In the run up and aftermath to Brexit he has embarked on a particular path, and remains the only person in the Conservative Party with the political skills to negotiate the various big intractable problems that follow from it. I also think that, in the end, he is the only person who can brush off this sleaze thing, because there is always sleaze and rule bending everywhere you go digging in public life, any supposed quest for purity in public life will ultimately be little more than a performance for the public who, in the end, aren't particularly gullible.


    Political skills to negotiate big intractable problems ?

    No - animal skill and cunning to please people from day to day - something which eventually catches up with you without longer-term or strategic foresight, and which is what happened starting with the Paterson error.
    How exactly was he able to get Brexit done? It completely defeated Ms May, a far more conventionally skilled politician. It may have been animal skill and cunning, but it worked. Not only did it work, but he reinvented the working class appeal of the Conservative Party at the same time. These are not accidents, they are the product of some strategic foresight. It may be that this was actually down to Dominic Cummings, and his big error may have actually been to lose him.

    I remain of the view that Boris will ultimately shake off all this sleaze stuff, but concede that Starmer is now looking dangerous.
    When you say "it worked", "it" was the "oven-ready deal" which won an election. That worked, absolutely. If you are referring to "it" as Brexit, it clearly hasn't worked, hence the endless tirades against Lord Jobbie's Brexit deal by Lord Jobbie.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,840
    This guy is good. Short, specific questions. And not tolerating blustery word salad.
  • Cyclefree said:

    Anyway, an interesting stand-off this afternoon in the Cyclefree household.

    The hound - Husband's hound - made a bit of a mess in my car, which Husband was using. Car due to go to garage today so Husband got in a grump this morning at having to clean up dog mess. Car is now being valeted and will return later.

    Meanwhile, the shitey cushion on which Hound was seated is in driveway being an eyesore in my garden.

    Husband commented that "it would need washing". I love his use of the passive tense. I have no intention of washing it myself of course. If the birds busily picking bits of branches and berries for their winter habitat were to take it away I'd be delighted.

    How long will I have to wait before Husband decides to wash it himself or, better still, throw it away?

    When my mother wants to throw something of mine away/or wants something thrown away she'll make sure to pick up all my clothes that need washing and then announce she's got room to wash that disgusting item.
  • AlistairMAlistairM Posts: 2,004

    Julia Hartley-Brewer
    @JuliaHB1
    ·
    49m
    BREAKING: The end of elite women's sport has just been announced.

    Transgender athletes should not have to lower testosterone to compete, IOC says as it changes guidelines

    So there's the trade off:

    Keep your tackle and make it to the Olympic semi-final.

    Get it chopped off and win a medal.
    The International Athletics Federation still have their own testosterone rule that was stricter than the one dropped by the IOC, but I think the IOC are saying you'd need copious formal evidence to exclude even pre-op transgender athletes.

    So in your scenario they might not even need to sacrifice the dangly bits.
    It has been obvious that as soon as you let transgender male->female athletes compete against naturally born females that it would finish women's sport. They just will not be able to compete. It is a disgrace. There were 3 options and they have picked the worst. May as well just be done with it and no longer have any male/female categories.

    The other two options in my view are:
    1. No competition for transgender athletes (needs of the many outweighing needs of the few)
    2. Creating new categories.
  • The country would be far better served by appointing this Committee to act as the cabinet and vote one of them as Prime Minister

    No it really, really wouldn't.

    For one thing this Committee is crossparty so how is that going to work?

    For another, this Committee is the head of each committee who scrutinise and hold to account the Cabinet and the PM, if this Committee became the Cabinet then who would hold the scrutiny role filled by this Committee? You'd need to reinvent this Committee and be back to square one.
  • eek said:

    Boris isn't very good is he...

    You've only just realised?

    He just cannot do detail or think on his feet.
    Has that last issue changed over the years - he most have been able to think on his feet at some point to get to where he is?
    Not really. Those close to him have always known he is a duffer and bluffer. Hence the talk of trying to keep him off the final ballot of Conservative members.

    Think of the Wizard of Oz.

    Wonderfully projected image, which is why he wins national campaigns.

    But behind the curtain, there's hardly anything.
  • Johnson now claiming the lack of mask in Hexham was a mistake that lasted six seconds.

    So why then did the "I'm the" Deputy Prime Minister get sent out to do the media round insisting the PM had followed the rules.

    He wouldn't have to sit there looking his usual gormless saying "he followed the rules" as they repeat the clip proving he didn't" had as he just claimed he had only taken it off for 5 seconds and had realised it was a mistake.

    Another lie.
    The lies are coming faster by the day. Eventually they will collide into one big enormous mess and he'll be done.
    I doubt an incident over mask wearing will see Boris lose his premiership, but the idiotic way he dealt with the Paterson affair and his steps since including the change in standards may well
    Do you agree Big G that it is appallingly arrogant for the government to put up Dominic Raab to lie in our faces?

    It was obvious Boris broke the rules. Why can’t this government tell the truth for once?
    The charge sheet against Boris is extensive and it will be Paterson that is likely to see him lose his premiership

    He is wholly unsuitable and the sooner he goes the better
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 5,226
    MaxPB said:

    I really, really hope that Boris is removed from office sooner rather than later. The ineptitude and corruption that the government is dragging this great nation through under his watch is unbearable. Everyday there's new revelations about how some minister/ex-minister/MP is or was on the take.

    Uk politics has always stunk. If I may venture to say so, it would be naive to think the removal of the PM from office is sufficient to clean it up when rank and file MPs are falling over each other to keep the gravy train on the rails.

    Is Boris the right person to clean it all up? Hmm. Not obviously so no. But then again he has little time for the parliamentary party so if he sees it as his only way of remaining world king then perhaps he’ll have a go. Conversely how willing would the shmoozers lining up to replace him be to finally muck out the stables?

  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614

    That’ll be expensive:

    A British F35 pilot from HMS Queen Elizabeth ejected during routine flying operations in the Mediterranean this morning.

    The pilot has been safely returned to the ship and an investigation has begun, so it would be inappropriate to comment further at this time.


    https://twitter.com/defencehqpress/status/1460987353410027530?s=21

    Whoops, that’s $250m in crisp Benjamin Franklins, slowly sinking to the bottom of the ocean.

    Good to hear the pilot’s okay though.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,840
    "Something is happening here and you don't know what it is.
    Do you Mr Jones?"
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 14,772

    The country would be far better served by appointing this Committee to act as the cabinet and vote one of them as Prime Minister

    I'd be tempted to adopt the Swiss system of having a rotisserie leader. If you knew that each Cabinet minister would spend a certain period, in turn, as first among equals then it would prevent the PM from acting as a President in all but name. We'd be back to genuine Cabinet government.
  • isamisam Posts: 40,731

    Johnson now claiming the lack of mask in Hexham was a mistake that lasted six seconds.

    So why then did the "I'm the" Deputy Prime Minister get sent out to do the media round insisting the PM had followed the rules.

    He wouldn't have to sit there looking his usual gormless saying "he followed the rules" as they repeat the clip proving he didn't" had as he just claimed he had only taken it off for 5 seconds and had realised it was a mistake.

    Another lie.
    The lies are coming faster by the day. Eventually they will collide into one big enormous mess and he'll be done.
    I doubt an incident over mask wearing will see Boris lose his premiership, but the idiotic way he dealt with the Paterson affair and his steps since including the change in standards may well
    How about the idiotic way he and his ministers lied about it?

    Wearing a mask in hospital is a given. Everyone has to, do not kiss your relatives edicts etc etc

    Johnson told to wear one - repeatedly - by the staff. Backed up by the hospital rules. Mandated by the legal requirements on NHS Trusts set by his government.

    Johnson doesn't wear one. Gets roundly castigated for doing so - front pages, commentators, the lot. Sends that gormless idiot "I'm the" Deputy Prime Minister onto GMTV. Repeats and repeats that the PM followed the rules as they repeatedly prove he didn't. Gormless doesn't get it even as the presenters explain it to him

    Now he says "I did wear one, but took it off very briefly" (a lie) and then realised it was a mistake so put it back on (a lie). And then sent Raaaab out for more lies.

    Yes its only a mask. But the lies are building. Proof that the PM has no interest in rules that are for you and me but not for him are building. The disconnect between him and everyone else are building.
    “Wearing a mask in hospital is a given. Everyone has to, do not kiss your relatives edicts etc etc”

    We didn’t have to wear one in the maternity ward, or the post birth room, last month when our son was born. I did wear one when I got lost walking around the endless, identical corridors though
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,585
    ping said:

    This format is so much better than PMQs- first, these are among the smartest MPs, second they follow up on his answers to previous questions.

    Dave (pbuh) said this used to stress him more than a 100 PMQs.
    It’s a particularly cruel form of torture for the pm.

    It’s great
    Recondite is the word.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,812
    edited November 2021

    eek said:

    Boris isn't very good is he...

    You've only just realised?

    He just cannot do detail or think on his feet.
    Has that last issue changed over the years - he most have been able to think on his feet at some point to get to where he is?
    Not really. Those close to him have always known he is a duffer and bluffer. Hence the talk of trying to keep him off the final ballot of Conservative members.

    Think of the Wizard of Oz.

    Wonderfully projected image, which is why he wins national campaigns.

    But behind the curtain, there's hardly anything.
    Anyone following his career knows there’s hardly anything there.

    Remember all those “major speeches” that were trailed in the media that turned out to be half an hour of rambling, undigested, after-dinner shite?

    Amazing that so many on this board were (maybe still are) hoodwinked by this shyster.
  • Since Starmer wept crocodile tears for Sir David Amess and called for more civillity in politics he has accused the PM of leading his party into the sewwer and called the PM a coward. Starmer's hypocrisy is unbounded.
  • dixiedean said:

    This guy is good. Short, specific questions. And not tolerating blustery word salad.

    Darren Jones, Labour, Bristol NW?
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,153
    Sandpit said:

    That’ll be expensive:

    A British F35 pilot from HMS Queen Elizabeth ejected during routine flying operations in the Mediterranean this morning.

    The pilot has been safely returned to the ship and an investigation has begun, so it would be inappropriate to comment further at this time.


    https://twitter.com/defencehqpress/status/1460987353410027530?s=21

    Whoops, that’s $250m in crisp Benjamin Franklins, slowly sinking to the bottom of the ocean.

    Good to hear the pilot’s okay though.
    That would pay for about 540 Seafire Mark 1s in inflation-adjusted terms ...
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,094

    Johnson now claiming the lack of mask in Hexham was a mistake that lasted six seconds.

    So why then did the "I'm the" Deputy Prime Minister get sent out to do the media round insisting the PM had followed the rules.

    He wouldn't have to sit there looking his usual gormless saying "he followed the rules" as they repeat the clip proving he didn't" had as he just claimed he had only taken it off for 5 seconds and had realised it was a mistake.

    Another lie.
    The lies are coming faster by the day. Eventually they will collide into one big enormous mess and he'll be done.
    I too feel that when he leaves his post, it is most likely to be in disgrace.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,265

    This format is so much better than PMQs- first, these are among the smartest MPs, second they follow up on his answers to previous questions.

    Dave (pbuh) said this used to stress him more than a 100 PMQs.
    Tony Blair used to love them - stayed fresh and sparky long after the committee had started to look exhausted. Anyone who likes intelligent discussion prefers formats like this.
  • 38,263 and 201 deaths and 778 patients admitted
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 19,620

    Since Starmer wept crocodile tears for Sir David Amess and called for more civillity in politics he has accused the PM of leading his party into the sewwer and called the PM a coward. Starmer's hypocrisy is unbounded.

    LOL
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,840

    dixiedean said:

    This guy is good. Short, specific questions. And not tolerating blustery word salad.

    Darren Jones, Labour, Bristol NW?
    Yes. Never heard of him. But he's 35 and a Committee Chair already. Maybe worth a speculative pound or 2 as future Labour leader?
  • Stormont ministers have voted in favour of mandatory Covid vaccine passports to be introduced in NI from next month, BBC News NI understands.

    But it is understood DUP ministers voted against the move.

    Sinn Féin, Alliance and the SDLP all backed the proposals from Health Minister Robin Swann.

    But it is understood DUP ministers voted against the move, with the result finishing six to four.


    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-59325108
  • LeonLeon Posts: 46,280
    38,283 CASES

    201 DEATHS

    778 ADMITTED
  • CD13CD13 Posts: 6,349
    BoJo picked the right person to lead the vaccine campaign and he's still living off it. But the Tories have picked two duds in a row. Isn't that Labour's job?
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,094
    darkage said:

    darkage said:

    eek said:

    Helpful update from @PA: "The Government sought to clarify that it has not lost the minutes of a meeting between Randox and a health minister, only that it cannot find them at the moment."

    https://twitter.com/PippaCrerar/status/1460983127153823746

    Helpful update from @PA: "The Government sought to clarify that it has not lost the minutes of a meeting between Randox and a health minister, only that it cannot find them at the moment."

    https://twitter.com/PippaCrerar/status/1460983127153823746

    Bullshit. "I have been unable to locate the formal minutes" means there are no minutes. Now then, let us ask why that might be the case...

    Liaison committee coming up. Get your popcorn ready.
    Many many years ago I was involved in a mediation where transcripts of board meetings were required from the other side.

    They sent everything we needed except the board meeting transcripts, we had to pester and pester them, their replies followed as such

    1) We cannot find said minutes

    then

    2) We cannot still find said minutes

    then

    3) We have found said minutes, but only in a digital format, however it is password protected and the person who created the password no longer works for us, and we cannot locate them.

    (We then asked the courts to compel them to name that employee)

    4) Oh, we've remembered the password, here's the file emailed to you.

    We took a look at the word file (helpfully they had left track changes on) and it was clear this file was created fewer than 48 hours ago and then kept on adding things to it.
    Yep. I've suspected for a few weeks now that this could sink Johnson and I'm increasingly confident this will now happen.

    His liaison committee is already not going well. "We will need more of your time Prime Minister" responded to with such a look of utter panic that the chair suggested "you can give short answers". And then straight into "is it not a conflict of interest that you are the ultimate arbiter for the ministerial code."

    He looks contrite and weary.

    Contrite is probably the best look in a very bad situation to get to the other side of this stupid mess.

    When in a hole, stop digging.
    Would anyone on this site - except for HYUFD be at all upset (or surprised) if Boris went?

    I seriously can't think of any other poster here who thinks Boris is a suitable or qualified person for the job of PM...
    I wouldn't say he is either suitable or qualifed by historical standards, but I would say that he remains the appropriate person to lead the Conservative Party. In the run up and aftermath to Brexit he has embarked on a particular path, and remains the only person in the Conservative Party with the political skills to negotiate the various big intractable problems that follow from it. I also think that, in the end, he is the only person who can brush off this sleaze thing, because there is always sleaze and rule bending everywhere you go digging in public life, any supposed quest for purity in public life will ultimately be little more than a performance for the public who, in the end, aren't particularly gullible.


    Political skills to negotiate big intractable problems ?

    No - animal skill and cunning to please people from day to day - something which eventually catches up with you without longer-term or strategic foresight, and which is what happened starting with the Paterson error.
    How exactly was he able to get Brexit done? It completely defeated Ms May, a far more conventionally skilled politician. It may have been animal skill and cunning, but it worked. Not only did it work, but he reinvented the working class appeal of the Conservative Party at the same time. These are not accidents, they are the product of some strategic foresight. It may be that this was actually down to Dominic Cummings, and his big error may have actually been to lose him.

    I remain of the view that Boris will ultimately shake off all this sleaze stuff, but concede that Starmer is now looking dangerous.
    The answer is obvious.

    To get Brexit "done" (sic), you needed to be dishonest and be prepared to tell bare-faced lies. Mrs May wasn't up to such a task.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,812

    Stormont ministers have voted in favour of mandatory Covid vaccine passports to be introduced in NI from next month, BBC News NI understands.

    But it is understood DUP ministers voted against the move.

    Sinn Féin, Alliance and the SDLP all backed the proposals from Health Minister Robin Swann.

    But it is understood DUP ministers voted against the move, with the result finishing six to four.


    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-59325108

    Sad to see Lib Dem-affiliated Alliance vote for this.
  • AlistairMAlistairM Posts: 2,004

    38,263 and 201 deaths and 778 patients admitted

    Cases down almost 1K from last week. Has the last week been the back-to-school surge? If it has only lasted a week then that is a very good sign.
  • The country would be far better served by appointing this Committee to act as the cabinet and vote one of them as Prime Minister

    I'd be tempted to adopt the Swiss system of having a rotisserie leader. If you knew that each Cabinet minister would spend a certain period, in turn, as first among equals then it would prevent the PM from acting as a President in all but name. We'd be back to genuine Cabinet government.
    How did the war with Spain begin PM Grayling?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,585

    The RMT union has just dropped some 2nd jobs analysis on the Shipping Minister, Nusrat Ghani MP

    She was paid £60,000 a year for 84 hours work (£714 per hour) for ship design firm Artemis Technologies Ltd

    The RMT point out that Artemis has received "significant" public funding


    https://twitter.com/josiahmortimer/status/1460998893852934145

    She doesn't appear to have any qualifications in either marine design or low carbon propulsion technologies.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nus_Ghani

    Other than her government post, of course.

    Aren't non execs supposed to challenge rather than questionably facilitate ?
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,776
    Leon said:

    38,283 CASES

    201 DEATHS

    778 ADMITTED

    Hospitalisation numbers look good (especially, as English numbers are more up to date).
  • AlistairMAlistairM Posts: 2,004
    Leon said:

    38,283 CASES

    201 DEATHS

    778 ADMITTED

    The admissions number is the lowest since 10th October.
  • isam said:

    Johnson now claiming the lack of mask in Hexham was a mistake that lasted six seconds.

    So why then did the "I'm the" Deputy Prime Minister get sent out to do the media round insisting the PM had followed the rules.

    He wouldn't have to sit there looking his usual gormless saying "he followed the rules" as they repeat the clip proving he didn't" had as he just claimed he had only taken it off for 5 seconds and had realised it was a mistake.

    Another lie.
    The lies are coming faster by the day. Eventually they will collide into one big enormous mess and he'll be done.
    I doubt an incident over mask wearing will see Boris lose his premiership, but the idiotic way he dealt with the Paterson affair and his steps since including the change in standards may well
    How about the idiotic way he and his ministers lied about it?

    Wearing a mask in hospital is a given. Everyone has to, do not kiss your relatives edicts etc etc

    Johnson told to wear one - repeatedly - by the staff. Backed up by the hospital rules. Mandated by the legal requirements on NHS Trusts set by his government.

    Johnson doesn't wear one. Gets roundly castigated for doing so - front pages, commentators, the lot. Sends that gormless idiot "I'm the" Deputy Prime Minister onto GMTV. Repeats and repeats that the PM followed the rules as they repeatedly prove he didn't. Gormless doesn't get it even as the presenters explain it to him

    Now he says "I did wear one, but took it off very briefly" (a lie) and then realised it was a mistake so put it back on (a lie). And then sent Raaaab out for more lies.

    Yes its only a mask. But the lies are building. Proof that the PM has no interest in rules that are for you and me but not for him are building. The disconnect between him and everyone else are building.
    “Wearing a mask in hospital is a given. Everyone has to, do not kiss your relatives edicts etc etc”

    We didn’t have to wear one in the maternity ward, or the post birth room, last month when our son was born. I did wear one when I got lost walking around the endless, identical corridors though
    I'm impressed they let you in at all - I know various people who ended up having to give birth alone with their other half banned. Congrats again on the birth!

    Anyway, the guidelines at the time the PM went to Hexham are clear. Both from the DHSC and the Trust. He HAD to wear a mask. He didn't. And now he's saying sorry.

    Are you suggesting that he was wrong to apologise for this error of judgement?
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,812
    Nigelb said:

    The RMT union has just dropped some 2nd jobs analysis on the Shipping Minister, Nusrat Ghani MP

    She was paid £60,000 a year for 84 hours work (£714 per hour) for ship design firm Artemis Technologies Ltd

    The RMT point out that Artemis has received "significant" public funding


    https://twitter.com/josiahmortimer/status/1460998893852934145

    She doesn't appear to have any qualifications in either marine design or low carbon propulsion technologies.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nus_Ghani

    Other than her government post, of course.

    Aren't non execs supposed to challenge rather than questionably facilitate ?
    The corruption is so thick and sewer-blocking with this government, it’s a veritable fatberg.
  • maaarshmaaarsh Posts: 3,391
    Cases heading down again, exactly as predicted by this chart 3 days ago -


    http://sonorouschocolate.com/covid19/extdata/logcasesbyage.png

    Worth noting the current signal is that they're flat, so we'll get a few days of falls now but only because the denominator is going up rather than any chance in the numerator.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614

    Julia Hartley-Brewer
    @JuliaHB1
    ·
    49m
    BREAKING: The end of elite women's sport has just been announced.

    Transgender athletes should not have to lower testosterone to compete, IOC says as it changes guidelines

    So there's the trade off:

    Keep your tackle and make it to the Olympic semi-final.

    Get it chopped off and win a medal.
    The International Athletics Federation still have their own testosterone rule that was stricter than the one dropped by the IOC, but I think the IOC are saying you'd need copious formal evidence to exclude even pre-op transgender athletes.

    So in your scenario they might not even need to sacrifice the dangly bits.
    They might as well just cancel separate women’s categories in most events at the Olympics, if they are so determined to go down the path of allowing self-identification.
  • Nigelb said:

    The RMT union has just dropped some 2nd jobs analysis on the Shipping Minister, Nusrat Ghani MP

    She was paid £60,000 a year for 84 hours work (£714 per hour) for ship design firm Artemis Technologies Ltd

    The RMT point out that Artemis has received "significant" public funding


    https://twitter.com/josiahmortimer/status/1460998893852934145

    She doesn't appear to have any qualifications in either marine design or low carbon propulsion technologies.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nus_Ghani

    Other than her government post, of course.

    Aren't non execs supposed to challenge rather than questionably facilitate ?
    You mean you've never heard the joke about what's the difference between a supermarket shopping trolley and a non executive director? A supermarket shopping trolley has a mind of its own!

  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 14,772

    The country would be far better served by appointing this Committee to act as the cabinet and vote one of them as Prime Minister

    I'd be tempted to adopt the Swiss system of having a rotisserie leader. If you knew that each Cabinet minister would spend a certain period, in turn, as first among equals then it would prevent the PM from acting as a President in all but name. We'd be back to genuine Cabinet government.
    How did the war with Spain begin PM Grayling?
    Well, if every Cabinet Minister took a turn as PM it would be more important to make sure they were of sufficient calibre. Though perhaps you could limit it to the more senior Cabinet positions.
  • AlistairMAlistairM Posts: 2,004
    AlistairM said:

    38,263 and 201 deaths and 778 patients admitted

    Cases down almost 1K from last week. Has the last week been the back-to-school surge? If it has only lasted a week then that is a very good sign.
    Just thinking about this some more. I think we will have a very good idea over the course of the next month whether the UK has reached herd immunity. If we have no restrictions, schools are back and cases are declining from the current high levels then I don't see what else it could be.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,153

    Nigelb said:

    The RMT union has just dropped some 2nd jobs analysis on the Shipping Minister, Nusrat Ghani MP

    She was paid £60,000 a year for 84 hours work (£714 per hour) for ship design firm Artemis Technologies Ltd

    The RMT point out that Artemis has received "significant" public funding


    https://twitter.com/josiahmortimer/status/1460998893852934145

    She doesn't appear to have any qualifications in either marine design or low carbon propulsion technologies.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nus_Ghani

    Other than her government post, of course.

    Aren't non execs supposed to challenge rather than questionably facilitate ?
    The corruption is so thick and sewer-blocking with this government, it’s a veritable fatberg.
    The cover-up wet wipes don't help.
  • V senior backbench Tory MP on why there were so many empty spaces behind the PM at #PMQs: “a sense of dumb exhaustion. The party is at each others throats and what for? A u-turn on a u-turn. There’s a sense of exhaustion with the whole lot of them and the whole thing.”

    https://twitter.com/MrHarryCole/status/1461003965177516035?s=20
  • state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 5,415
    edited November 2021
    Cyclefree said:

    AlistairM said:

    Julia Hartley-Brewer
    @JuliaHB1
    ·
    49m
    BREAKING: The end of elite women's sport has just been announced.

    Transgender athletes should not have to lower testosterone to compete, IOC says as it changes guidelines

    So there's the trade off:

    Keep your tackle and make it to the Olympic semi-final.

    Get it chopped off and win a medal.
    The International Athletics Federation still have their own testosterone rule that was stricter than the one dropped by the IOC, but I think the IOC are saying you'd need copious formal evidence to exclude even pre-op transgender athletes.

    So in your scenario they might not even need to sacrifice the dangly bits.
    It has been obvious that as soon as you let transgender male->female athletes compete against naturally born females that it would finish women's sport. They just will not be able to compete. It is a disgrace. There were 3 options and they have picked the worst. May as well just be done with it and no longer have any male/female categories.

    The other two options in my view are:
    1. No competition for transgender athletes (needs of the many outweighing needs of the few)
    2. Creating new categories.
    A female sportswoman who doped herself to have the amount of testosterone a transwoman sportsperson is permitted would be banned. But a trans athlete - a male claiming to be a woman - with that amount of testosterone in his body as a result of male puberty can legally compete. How can this possibly be fair? And isn't this discrimination against women?

    It is a disgrace. Just as allowing men claiming to be women and convicted of sexual offences against women to be housed in womens' prisons is a disgrace. There was an interesting debate on this in the House of Lords yesterday where Ms Chakrabarti once again showed what an incoherent moron she is.

    a spineless decision going against common sense. Most drastic actions in life have consequences. Changing gender and not being able to compete in the new gender category is just a consequence ,presumably a small one if the main wish is to change gender. Why do we pretend that anything remotely based to do with LGBT rights has to have zero downside for the person?
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 43,625
    AlistairM said:

    AlistairM said:

    38,263 and 201 deaths and 778 patients admitted

    Cases down almost 1K from last week. Has the last week been the back-to-school surge? If it has only lasted a week then that is a very good sign.
    Just thinking about this some more. I think we will have a very good idea over the course of the next month whether the UK has reached herd immunity. If we have no restrictions, schools are back and cases are declining from the current high levels then I don't see what else it could be.
    Cases by specimen date are essentially flat, I think.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,585

    Nigelb said:

    The RMT union has just dropped some 2nd jobs analysis on the Shipping Minister, Nusrat Ghani MP

    She was paid £60,000 a year for 84 hours work (£714 per hour) for ship design firm Artemis Technologies Ltd

    The RMT point out that Artemis has received "significant" public funding


    https://twitter.com/josiahmortimer/status/1460998893852934145

    She doesn't appear to have any qualifications in either marine design or low carbon propulsion technologies.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nus_Ghani

    Other than her government post, of course.

    Aren't non execs supposed to challenge rather than questionably facilitate ?
    You mean you've never heard the joke about what's the difference between a supermarket shopping trolley and a non executive director? A supermarket shopping trolley has a mind of its own!

    I'm a naive sort.
  • maaarshmaaarsh Posts: 3,391
    England hospital occupancy down 15% from it's recent 'peak' already, and the booster impact is getting bigger every day.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    Encouraging case numbers
  • Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    The RMT union has just dropped some 2nd jobs analysis on the Shipping Minister, Nusrat Ghani MP

    She was paid £60,000 a year for 84 hours work (£714 per hour) for ship design firm Artemis Technologies Ltd

    The RMT point out that Artemis has received "significant" public funding


    https://twitter.com/josiahmortimer/status/1460998893852934145

    She doesn't appear to have any qualifications in either marine design or low carbon propulsion technologies.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nus_Ghani

    Other than her government post, of course.

    Aren't non execs supposed to challenge rather than questionably facilitate ?
    You mean you've never heard the joke about what's the difference between a supermarket shopping trolley and a non executive director? A supermarket shopping trolley has a mind of its own!

    I'm a naive sort.
    You only have to give a trolley a £1 to get it to work
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 43,625
    Cyclefree said:

    AlistairM said:

    Julia Hartley-Brewer
    @JuliaHB1
    ·
    49m
    BREAKING: The end of elite women's sport has just been announced.

    Transgender athletes should not have to lower testosterone to compete, IOC says as it changes guidelines

    So there's the trade off:

    Keep your tackle and make it to the Olympic semi-final.

    Get it chopped off and win a medal.
    The International Athletics Federation still have their own testosterone rule that was stricter than the one dropped by the IOC, but I think the IOC are saying you'd need copious formal evidence to exclude even pre-op transgender athletes.

    So in your scenario they might not even need to sacrifice the dangly bits.
    It has been obvious that as soon as you let transgender male->female athletes compete against naturally born females that it would finish women's sport. They just will not be able to compete. It is a disgrace. There were 3 options and they have picked the worst. May as well just be done with it and no longer have any male/female categories.

    The other two options in my view are:
    1. No competition for transgender athletes (needs of the many outweighing needs of the few)
    2. Creating new categories.
    A female sportswoman who doped herself to have the amount of testosterone a transwoman sportsperson is permitted would be banned. But a trans athlete - a male claiming to be a woman - with that amount of testosterone in his body as a result of male puberty can legally compete. How can this possibly be fair? And isn't this discrimination against women?

    It is a disgrace. Just as allowing men claiming to be women and convicted of sexual offences against women to be housed in womens' prisons is a disgrace. There was an interesting debate on this in the House of Lords yesterday where Ms Chakrabarti once again showed what an incoherent moron she is.

    Where it gets interesting is where that testosterone comes from. In both cases er.... medical intervention. Only the intent is different.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,603
    The Monday -> Monday comparison looks like it will come in about evens, a few more days of reporting day drops and the specimen date drops will start to show in cases.

    I'm now almost certain that we are either at or very close to herd immunity. If we weren't then there would be no chance of this case rise petering out and the R value dropping back to 1.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 14,772

    Cyclefree said:

    AlistairM said:

    Julia Hartley-Brewer
    @JuliaHB1
    ·
    49m
    BREAKING: The end of elite women's sport has just been announced.

    Transgender athletes should not have to lower testosterone to compete, IOC says as it changes guidelines

    So there's the trade off:

    Keep your tackle and make it to the Olympic semi-final.

    Get it chopped off and win a medal.
    The International Athletics Federation still have their own testosterone rule that was stricter than the one dropped by the IOC, but I think the IOC are saying you'd need copious formal evidence to exclude even pre-op transgender athletes.

    So in your scenario they might not even need to sacrifice the dangly bits.
    It has been obvious that as soon as you let transgender male->female athletes compete against naturally born females that it would finish women's sport. They just will not be able to compete. It is a disgrace. There were 3 options and they have picked the worst. May as well just be done with it and no longer have any male/female categories.

    The other two options in my view are:
    1. No competition for transgender athletes (needs of the many outweighing needs of the few)
    2. Creating new categories.
    A female sportswoman who doped herself to have the amount of testosterone a transwoman sportsperson is permitted would be banned. But a trans athlete - a male claiming to be a woman - with that amount of testosterone in his body as a result of male puberty can legally compete. How can this possibly be fair? And isn't this discrimination against women?

    It is a disgrace. Just as allowing men claiming to be women and convicted of sexual offences against women to be housed in womens' prisons is a disgrace. There was an interesting debate on this in the House of Lords yesterday where Ms Chakrabarti once again showed what an incoherent moron she is.

    a spineless decision going against common sense. Most drastic actions in life have consequences. Changing gender and not being able to compete in the new gender category is just a consequence ,presumably a small one if the main wish is to change gender. Why do we pretend that anything remotely based to do with LGBT rights has to have zero downside for the person?
    What downsides to being gay do you think there should be?

    Given the very many downsides historically enforced on people who were different it's understandable they'd want to struggle against them.

    But the issue of fair competition is one where they create a downside for others, that isn't created by having equal rights to LGBT people in almost every other conceivable situation.
  • AlistairMAlistairM Posts: 2,004
    edited November 2021

    Cyclefree said:

    AlistairM said:

    Julia Hartley-Brewer
    @JuliaHB1
    ·
    49m
    BREAKING: The end of elite women's sport has just been announced.

    Transgender athletes should not have to lower testosterone to compete, IOC says as it changes guidelines

    So there's the trade off:

    Keep your tackle and make it to the Olympic semi-final.

    Get it chopped off and win a medal.
    The International Athletics Federation still have their own testosterone rule that was stricter than the one dropped by the IOC, but I think the IOC are saying you'd need copious formal evidence to exclude even pre-op transgender athletes.

    So in your scenario they might not even need to sacrifice the dangly bits.
    It has been obvious that as soon as you let transgender male->female athletes compete against naturally born females that it would finish women's sport. They just will not be able to compete. It is a disgrace. There were 3 options and they have picked the worst. May as well just be done with it and no longer have any male/female categories.

    The other two options in my view are:
    1. No competition for transgender athletes (needs of the many outweighing needs of the few)
    2. Creating new categories.
    A female sportswoman who doped herself to have the amount of testosterone a transwoman sportsperson is permitted would be banned. But a trans athlete - a male claiming to be a woman - with that amount of testosterone in his body as a result of male puberty can legally compete. How can this possibly be fair? And isn't this discrimination against women?

    It is a disgrace. Just as allowing men claiming to be women and convicted of sexual offences against women to be housed in womens' prisons is a disgrace. There was an interesting debate on this in the House of Lords yesterday where Ms Chakrabarti once again showed what an incoherent moron she is.

    a spineless decision going against common sense. Most drastic actions in life have consequences. Changing gender and not being able to compete in the new gender category is just a consequence ,presumably a small one if the main wish is to change gender. Why do we pretend that anything remotely based to do with LGBT rights has to have zero downside for the person?
    Why is it that so many transgender male->female athletes want to compete in sport and so few female->male ones do? If people want to change their gender then that is entirely up to them but they should do so knowing that they can't compete in sport. Why are we trampling on the rights of billions to protect the "rights" of a few?
  • NerysHughesNerysHughes Posts: 3,346
    MaxPB said:

    The Monday -> Monday comparison looks like it will come in about evens, a few more days of reporting day drops and the specimen date drops will start to show in cases.

    I'm now almost certain that we are either at or very close to herd immunity. If we weren't then there would be no chance of this case rise petering out and the R value dropping back to 1.

    It will be interesting in a couple of weeks when most of Europe including Ireland is in lockdown and our case numbers are falling.
  • state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 5,415
    edited November 2021
    The only reason I am voting Tory at the moment is the great job they (Boris) is doing over covid . Most of Europe in the grip still of facemasks (useless ), curfews and rising cases in winter when Boris had the right idea to relax in summer and Autumn and gain herd immunity.Starmer is wrong on covid and has been for a while
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 24,588

    Since Starmer wept crocodile tears for Sir David Amess and called for more civillity in politics he has accused the PM of leading his party into the sewwer and called the PM a coward. Starmer's hypocrisy is unbounded.

    Feeble post. Tory HQ should ask for their money back.
    For their agent's spelling capability?
  • AlistairMAlistairM Posts: 2,004

    AlistairM said:

    AlistairM said:

    38,263 and 201 deaths and 778 patients admitted

    Cases down almost 1K from last week. Has the last week been the back-to-school surge? If it has only lasted a week then that is a very good sign.
    Just thinking about this some more. I think we will have a very good idea over the course of the next month whether the UK has reached herd immunity. If we have no restrictions, schools are back and cases are declining from the current high levels then I don't see what else it could be.
    Cases by specimen date are essentially flat, I think.
    Agreed, I suspect they probably are currently. However, I still think the next month will reveal for certain if we have hit herd immunity or not depending on which way the cases go in that time.
  • MaxPB said:

    The Monday -> Monday comparison looks like it will come in about evens, a few more days of reporting day drops and the specimen date drops will start to show in cases.

    I'm now almost certain that we are either at or very close to herd immunity. If we weren't then there would be no chance of this case rise petering out and the R value dropping back to 1.

    I hope that you and the other optimists are right. The rolling 7 day average is +35,798 today, vs +34,894 yesterday. We need to get back to day after day of significant and sustained drops before considering if we're all now immune.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 19,620
    Leon said:

    38,283 CASES

    201 DEATHS

    778 ADMITTED

    That 38,000 seems rather low to me. My sense is the mini casedemic wavette of the last fortnight might already be ebbing somewhat, but I haven't crunched the numbers.
  • AlistairMAlistairM Posts: 2,004

    The only reason I am voting Tory at the moment is the great job they (Boris) is doing over covid . Most of Europe in the grip still of facemasks (useless ), curfews and rising cases in winter when Boris had the right idea to relax in summer and Autumn and gain herd immunity.Starmer is wrong on covid and has been for a while

    You should read this article published very recently. Countries seeing a winter Covid crisis did what the author wanted us to do.
    https://www.newstatesman.com/comment/2021/11/how-the-uk-sleepwalked-into-another-covid-disaster
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    Surely this flailing collapse is some mistake.

    We were assured yesterday that Boris had “shot Keir’s fox”.

    Meanwhile, the “lost minutes” regarding the Randox meeting are literally unbelievable. At what point does Lord Bethell receive police interest?

    He the guy who is always losing phones?

    Perhaps he did a lot of pills back in the Ministry of Sound days
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 10,346
    IanB2 said:

    darkage said:

    darkage said:

    eek said:

    Helpful update from @PA: "The Government sought to clarify that it has not lost the minutes of a meeting between Randox and a health minister, only that it cannot find them at the moment."

    https://twitter.com/PippaCrerar/status/1460983127153823746

    Helpful update from @PA: "The Government sought to clarify that it has not lost the minutes of a meeting between Randox and a health minister, only that it cannot find them at the moment."

    https://twitter.com/PippaCrerar/status/1460983127153823746

    Bullshit. "I have been unable to locate the formal minutes" means there are no minutes. Now then, let us ask why that might be the case...

    Liaison committee coming up. Get your popcorn ready.
    Many many years ago I was involved in a mediation where transcripts of board meetings were required from the other side.

    They sent everything we needed except the board meeting transcripts, we had to pester and pester them, their replies followed as such

    1) We cannot find said minutes

    then

    2) We cannot still find said minutes

    then

    3) We have found said minutes, but only in a digital format, however it is password protected and the person who created the password no longer works for us, and we cannot locate them.

    (We then asked the courts to compel them to name that employee)

    4) Oh, we've remembered the password, here's the file emailed to you.

    We took a look at the word file (helpfully they had left track changes on) and it was clear this file was created fewer than 48 hours ago and then kept on adding things to it.
    Yep. I've suspected for a few weeks now that this could sink Johnson and I'm increasingly confident this will now happen.

    His liaison committee is already not going well. "We will need more of your time Prime Minister" responded to with such a look of utter panic that the chair suggested "you can give short answers". And then straight into "is it not a conflict of interest that you are the ultimate arbiter for the ministerial code."

    He looks contrite and weary.

    Contrite is probably the best look in a very bad situation to get to the other side of this stupid mess.

    When in a hole, stop digging.
    Would anyone on this site - except for HYUFD be at all upset (or surprised) if Boris went?

    I seriously can't think of any other poster here who thinks Boris is a suitable or qualified person for the job of PM...
    I wouldn't say he is either suitable or qualifed by historical standards, but I would say that he remains the appropriate person to lead the Conservative Party. In the run up and aftermath to Brexit he has embarked on a particular path, and remains the only person in the Conservative Party with the political skills to negotiate the various big intractable problems that follow from it. I also think that, in the end, he is the only person who can brush off this sleaze thing, because there is always sleaze and rule bending everywhere you go digging in public life, any supposed quest for purity in public life will ultimately be little more than a performance for the public who, in the end, aren't particularly gullible.


    Political skills to negotiate big intractable problems ?

    No - animal skill and cunning to please people from day to day - something which eventually catches up with you without longer-term or strategic foresight, and which is what happened starting with the Paterson error.
    How exactly was he able to get Brexit done? It completely defeated Ms May, a far more conventionally skilled politician. It may have been animal skill and cunning, but it worked. Not only did it work, but he reinvented the working class appeal of the Conservative Party at the same time. These are not accidents, they are the product of some strategic foresight. It may be that this was actually down to Dominic Cummings, and his big error may have actually been to lose him.

    I remain of the view that Boris will ultimately shake off all this sleaze stuff, but concede that Starmer is now looking dangerous.
    The answer is obvious.

    To get Brexit "done" (sic), you needed to be dishonest and be prepared to tell bare-faced lies. Mrs May wasn't up to such a task.
    There is some truth in this. The biggest post war policy failure was to get ourselves into a situation, without a series of referendums, into a place where getting out of super size trade association was both logically impossible (Ireland) and required double speak to achieve. Boris is not to blame for that; though much else of course. He was needed for the task. The day is coming when someone else is needed, but we had to be absolutely out first.
  • Bernard Jenkin getting Boris to agree the value of contraception there
  • AlistairMAlistairM Posts: 2,004

    MaxPB said:

    The Monday -> Monday comparison looks like it will come in about evens, a few more days of reporting day drops and the specimen date drops will start to show in cases.

    I'm now almost certain that we are either at or very close to herd immunity. If we weren't then there would be no chance of this case rise petering out and the R value dropping back to 1.

    I hope that you and the other optimists are right. The rolling 7 day average is +35,798 today, vs +34,894 yesterday. We need to get back to day after day of significant and sustained drops before considering if we're all now immune.
    That is a lagging indicator though. If you look at the raw daily data (both reported and specimen dates) then you can tell which way it will be going.
  • The only reason I am voting Tory at the moment is the great job they (Boris) is doing over covid . Most of Europe in the grip still of facemasks (useless ), curfews and rising cases in winter when Boris had the right idea to relax in summer and Autumn and gain herd immunity.Starmer is wrong on covid and has been for a while

    Sorry but this argument is a little daft. If you want to keep Starmer out then you should be calling for Johnson's head. Remove Johnson, replace with someone like Sunak and you win the election. Don't and you may lose.
  • eekeek Posts: 24,797
    edited November 2021

    The only reason I am voting Tory at the moment is the great job they (Boris) is doing over covid . Most of Europe in the grip still of facemasks (useless ), curfews and rising cases in winter when Boris had the right idea to relax in summer and Autumn and gain herd immunity.Starmer is wrong on covid and has been for a while

    What evidence do you have that any decision was actually made by Boris "wait until there is only 1 option left on the table" Johnson?

    Heck you only have to look back to last December to see how desperate Boris was to avoid making a decision.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 14,772
    MaxPB said:

    The Monday -> Monday comparison looks like it will come in about evens, a few more days of reporting day drops and the specimen date drops will start to show in cases.

    I'm now almost certain that we are either at or very close to herd immunity. If we weren't then there would be no chance of this case rise petering out and the R value dropping back to 1.

    We have a lot more social mixing now then we had in September 2020, and R is clearly a lot lower, so we have a lot of immunity, but I think we still have less social contact than in February 2020, and so I would think we're still some way from herd immunity in those conditions. Not far off though.
This discussion has been closed.