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  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,812

    Pulpstar said:

    AlistairM said:
    I didn't realise Olivia Newton-John was from Cambridge. Apparently her father worked for MI5 at Bletchley Park during the Second World War.
    Surprised

    AlistairM said:
    I didn't realise Olivia Newton-John was from Cambridge. Apparently her father worked for MI5 at Bletchley Park during the Second World War.
    Poor old London. Could have had Bowie instead they get Sir Elton.
    Sir Elton has sold a crazy amount of records, only behind the Beatles in the UK.
    Yep. And the Rubettes probably sold more than Roxy Music. That comparison is perhaps being a bit unfair to Sir Elt.

    Little know fact. Both Bryan Ferry and Elton John auditioned as a singer for King Crimson.
    Both turned down. Some guy, Robert Fripp.
    (King Crimson, BTW, are well worth discovering if you've hitherto overlooked them. And are still touring.)
    I’m not sure why, but I reckon there’s a big overlap between PB contributors and prog rock lovers.
  • FarooqFarooq Posts: 10,775

    Pulpstar said:

    AlistairM said:
    I didn't realise Olivia Newton-John was from Cambridge. Apparently her father worked for MI5 at Bletchley Park during the Second World War.
    Surprised

    AlistairM said:
    I didn't realise Olivia Newton-John was from Cambridge. Apparently her father worked for MI5 at Bletchley Park during the Second World War.
    Poor old London. Could have had Bowie instead they get Sir Elton.
    Sir Elton has sold a crazy amount of records, only behind the Beatles in the UK.
    Yep. And the Rubettes probably sold more than Roxy Music. That comparison is perhaps being a bit unfair to Sir Elt.

    Little know fact. Both Bryan Ferry and Elton John auditioned as a singer for King Crimson.
    Both turned down. Some guy, Robert Fripp.
    (King Crimson, BTW, are well worth discovering if you've hitherto overlooked them. And are still touring.)
    I’m not sure why, but I reckon there’s a big overlap between PB contributors and prog rock lovers.
    nerdery
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    Hot railway news: the 118 Tavistock to Okehampton bus has been rebadged overnight and is now the 118 Tavistock to Okehampton Rail Link!

    from Your Man On The Spot.
  • Pulpstar said:

    AlistairM said:
    I didn't realise Olivia Newton-John was from Cambridge. Apparently her father worked for MI5 at Bletchley Park during the Second World War.
    Surprised

    AlistairM said:
    I didn't realise Olivia Newton-John was from Cambridge. Apparently her father worked for MI5 at Bletchley Park during the Second World War.
    Poor old London. Could have had Bowie instead they get Sir Elton.
    Sir Elton has sold a crazy amount of records, only behind the Beatles in the UK.
    Yep. And the Rubettes probably sold more than Roxy Music. That comparison is perhaps being a bit unfair to Sir Elt.

    Little know fact. Both Bryan Ferry and Elton John auditioned as a singer for King Crimson.
    Both turned down. Some guy, Robert Fripp.
    (King Crimson, BTW, are well worth discovering if you've hitherto overlooked them. And are still touring.)
    Wasn't ELP's Lake in King Crimson?
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614

    @Leon the bassnectar remix of her song Lights is regarded by some as up there as one of the best electronic dance music tracks of its sub-genre.

    It’s a good tune, but there’s a very long long history of dance remixes of slow pop tunes.

    I’ll see your Bassnectar remix of Ellie Goulding, and raise you Armand van Helden’s remix of Tori Amos’s “Professional Widow”, from back in 1994.
    https://youtube.com/watch?v=sl9DkcBreNw
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,072
    IshmaelZ said:

    Hot railway news: the 118 Tavistock to Okehampton bus has been rebadged overnight and is now the 118 Tavistock to Okehampton Rail Link!

    from Your Man On The Spot.

    Big if true
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 5,097
    edited November 2021
    IshmaelZ said:

    Hot railway news: the 118 Tavistock to Okehampton bus has been rebadged overnight and is now the 118 Tavistock to Okehampton Rail Link!

    from Your Man On The Spot.

    Was thinking about this again this morning, following yesterday's discussion.

    For all my advocacy of left-of-centre politics, where was the Okehampton rail link under Tony Blair's Labour? All those years and bugger all development of south-west or indeed northern infrastructure.

    They were London Metropolitans and ultimately we've all paid the price. It's easy to blame David Cameron but the causes lie deeper and further back.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 18,093
    Taz said:

    Here's a shock. Left behind regions to get left further behind with transition to Green economy.

    https://www.msn.com/en-gb/money/other/move-to-green-economy-risks-jobs-in-some-parts-of-the-uk-report-warns/ar-AAQBqr3?ocid=entnewsntp&pc=U531

    Some sympathy for that, I think.

    Though I've wondered about offshore wind in due course being as beneficial as oil, as an energy supply export.

    Though we will continue to need steel, oil and plastic in different combination, and there's no reason why these can't stay in the same places, or those places be repurposed.

    One of their 'victim' areas is Port Talbot, which I would say has been poleaxed at least partly by the Welsh Govt's decision not to build an effective transport system to get there with.
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 5,097
    And we now need to push on with the rest of the route around northern Dartmoor: re-opening Okehampton to Tavistock, Gunnislake and Plymouth.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 26,285

    AlistairM said:
    I didn't realise Olivia Newton-John was from Cambridge. Apparently her father worked for MI5 at Bletchley Park during the Second World War.
    Her grandfather was a Nobel Prize winning scientist.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 18,093
    edited November 2021
    Farooq said:

    Pulpstar said:

    AlistairM said:
    I didn't realise Olivia Newton-John was from Cambridge. Apparently her father worked for MI5 at Bletchley Park during the Second World War.
    Surprised

    AlistairM said:
    I didn't realise Olivia Newton-John was from Cambridge. Apparently her father worked for MI5 at Bletchley Park during the Second World War.
    Poor old London. Could have had Bowie instead they get Sir Elton.
    Sir Elton has sold a crazy amount of records, only behind the Beatles in the UK.
    Yep. And the Rubettes probably sold more than Roxy Music. That comparison is perhaps being a bit unfair to Sir Elt.

    Little know fact. Both Bryan Ferry and Elton John auditioned as a singer for King Crimson.
    Both turned down. Some guy, Robert Fripp.
    (King Crimson, BTW, are well worth discovering if you've hitherto overlooked them. And are still touring.)
    I’m not sure why, but I reckon there’s a big overlap between PB contributors and prog rock lovers.
    nerdery
    Age.

    How many of that lot now live in London or SE? I recall an outrage bus full of pop stars now living in the SE demanding that the gallery in Gateshead was failing because it was short of money, when a trust endowed with a couple of % of their personal wealth would have fixed it forever.

    My one conclusion from that map is that I heard of surprisingly few of them, and that Wiltshire is the most miserable place in the world.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 46,263
    edited November 2021

    Leon said:

    @Leon the bassnectar remix of her song Lights is regarded by some as up there as one of the best electronic dance music tracks of its sub-genre.

    Link please?

    I like finding new music, indeed eager to hear it. But the regular versions of Ellie Goulding don’t do it for me, I’m afraid
    Can do Apple Music https://music.apple.com/gb/album/lights-bassnectar-remix/1444884316?i=1444884325
    In afraid it’s awful.
    Yes it’s terrible. Also, how could you possibly dance to it?!


    Last night I did discover an unexpectedly great dance song. Friendships, by Pascal Letoublon

    It has inspired a brilliant dance craze worldwide. Watch this to the end, I guarantee it will leave you smiling

    https://youtu.be/Dh4sjcsIE_E
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 47,789
    Scott_xP said:

    Sandpit said:

    So we end up with a stream of industry plants, talentless pretty faces with a big marketing operation.

    Great for the talent manager and his casting couch, but terrible for music.

    *cough*Stock, Aitken and Waterman*cough*
    At least Stock, Aitken and Waterman had some memorable songs.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 38,851
    Good header from @Cyclefree but I personally don't think there's much wrong with either the rules on MP 2nd jobs or their enforcement. Eg Paterson transgressed and he was caught. BJ & his cronies then intervened in bad faith. Far from the system not working it was (in their eyes) working only too well. So they tried to neuter it and get rid of the independent person in charge. This, together with corruption around government contracts, is the scandal and it's a humdinger.

    What's the way forward on standards in public life? Well it's no surprise that they plummet when we have a PM utterly devoid of them himself. There's the problem right there. So the answer isn't new rules & new systems, it lies with the voters from whom he derives his power. Via first opinion polls and then voting booths they need to deliver a clear message in the requisite simple 3 word format for our times: Taxi For Johnson.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,718
    Canvey Island is very proud of the Dr. Feelgood connection.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,165

    Scott_xP said:

    Sandpit said:

    So we end up with a stream of industry plants, talentless pretty faces with a big marketing operation.

    Great for the talent manager and his casting couch, but terrible for music.

    *cough*Stock, Aitken and Waterman*cough*
    At least Stock, Aitken and Waterman had some memorable songs.
    And Pete Waterman has spent his fortune wisely.
  • Pulpstar said:

    AlistairM said:
    I didn't realise Olivia Newton-John was from Cambridge. Apparently her father worked for MI5 at Bletchley Park during the Second World War.
    Surprised

    AlistairM said:
    I didn't realise Olivia Newton-John was from Cambridge. Apparently her father worked for MI5 at Bletchley Park during the Second World War.
    Poor old London. Could have had Bowie instead they get Sir Elton.
    Sir Elton has sold a crazy amount of records, only behind the Beatles in the UK.
    Yep. And the Rubettes probably sold more than Roxy Music. That comparison is perhaps being a bit unfair to Sir Elt.

    Little know fact. Both Bryan Ferry and Elton John auditioned as a singer for King Crimson.
    Both turned down. Some guy, Robert Fripp.
    (King Crimson, BTW, are well worth discovering if you've hitherto overlooked them. And are still touring.)
    I’m not sure why, but I reckon there’s a big overlap between PB contributors and prog rock lovers.
    Yep. Or should that be Yes? :)
  • "Michael Liebreich, founder of Bloomberg New Energy Finance, said Greta Thunberg and her youth movement are missing a trick.

    “Instead of saying it’s all ‘blah, blah, blah,’ what Greta should be saying to governments and business is ‘I love your pledges, they’re great, now we’re going to hold you to it,” he said."

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2021/11/12/china-final-giant-piece-surprisingly-successful-cop26/


    Another highly optimistic piece from AEP. This must be some kind of record.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,812
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    @Leon the bassnectar remix of her song Lights is regarded by some as up there as one of the best electronic dance music tracks of its sub-genre.

    Link please?

    I like finding new music, indeed eager to hear it. But the regular versions of Ellie Goulding don’t do it for me, I’m afraid
    Can do Apple Music https://music.apple.com/gb/album/lights-bassnectar-remix/1444884316?i=1444884325
    In afraid it’s awful.
    Yes it’s terrible. Also, how could you possibly dance to it?!


    Last night I did discover an unexpectedly great dance song. Friendships, by Pascal Letoublon

    It has inspired a brilliant dance craze worldwide. Watch this to the end, I guarantee it will leave you smiling

    https://youtu.be/Dh4sjcsIE_E
    Yes, it’s pretty good. Interesting example of how Tiktok is influencing music videos.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 24,587

    Scott_xP said:

    Sandpit said:

    So we end up with a stream of industry plants, talentless pretty faces with a big marketing operation.

    Great for the talent manager and his casting couch, but terrible for music.

    *cough*Stock, Aitken and Waterman*cough*
    At least Stock, Aitken and Waterman had some memorable songs.
    We should be so lucky...
  • FarooqFarooq Posts: 10,775
    Cyclefree said:

    dixiedean said:

    Only on PB could a simple map of musicians by county provoke such an outpouring of quibbling, pedantry, nit-picking and whataboutery.
    Along with useless trivia, personal anecdotes and opinion.
    Superb. Keep it up.

    OK then.

    Roland Gift of the Fine Young Cannibals came to my birthday parties. He and I were friends for a while. I went out with the artist brother of the lead guitarist of The Buzzcocks. I knew Tony Wilson and hung out at the Hacienda and his home in my dissolute past.

    Will that do?
    I was sick on James Dean Bradfield
  • Pulpstar said:

    AlistairM said:
    I didn't realise Olivia Newton-John was from Cambridge. Apparently her father worked for MI5 at Bletchley Park during the Second World War.
    Surprised

    AlistairM said:
    I didn't realise Olivia Newton-John was from Cambridge. Apparently her father worked for MI5 at Bletchley Park during the Second World War.
    Poor old London. Could have had Bowie instead they get Sir Elton.
    Sir Elton has sold a crazy amount of records, only behind the Beatles in the UK.
    Yep. And the Rubettes probably sold more than Roxy Music. That comparison is perhaps being a bit unfair to Sir Elt.

    Little know fact. Both Bryan Ferry and Elton John auditioned as a singer for King Crimson.
    Both turned down. Some guy, Robert Fripp.
    (King Crimson, BTW, are well worth discovering if you've hitherto overlooked them. And are still touring.)
    Wasn't ELP's Lake in King Crimson?
    Everyone's been in King Crimson.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,812

    Pulpstar said:

    AlistairM said:
    I didn't realise Olivia Newton-John was from Cambridge. Apparently her father worked for MI5 at Bletchley Park during the Second World War.
    Surprised

    AlistairM said:
    I didn't realise Olivia Newton-John was from Cambridge. Apparently her father worked for MI5 at Bletchley Park during the Second World War.
    Poor old London. Could have had Bowie instead they get Sir Elton.
    Sir Elton has sold a crazy amount of records, only behind the Beatles in the UK.
    Yep. And the Rubettes probably sold more than Roxy Music. That comparison is perhaps being a bit unfair to Sir Elt.

    Little know fact. Both Bryan Ferry and Elton John auditioned as a singer for King Crimson.
    Both turned down. Some guy, Robert Fripp.
    (King Crimson, BTW, are well worth discovering if you've hitherto overlooked them. And are still touring.)
    I’m not sure why, but I reckon there’s a big overlap between PB contributors and prog rock lovers.
    Yep. Or should that be Yes? :)
    The thing is, peak prog is basically 1970-1975, so to have enjoyed it first time round you have to be aged around (checks notes) 107.
  • OT two HSBC managers jailed for 12 years for siphoning £900,000 from customers' accounts.

    But look at the timescale. Three years from arrest to sentence, and that is despite their guilty pleas. The Justice Secretary really needs to pull his finger out. If the criminal justice system is to be effective, it needs to be timely.
    https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/hsbc-managers-jailed-900k-fraud-customers-accounts-b965646.html
  • Leon said:

    Pulpstar said:

    AlistairM said:
    Seems the Geordies prefer Gordon Sumner over Mark Knopfler.

    (Actually I see that Sting and I attended the same university, he to do teacher training, me to do my CIPD).
    I think the county only refers to where the artist is born, and it's the artist with most worldwide record sales in each county. So it doesn't matter who Geordies prefer, Sting has sold more records.
    Knopfler was born in Glasgow. Dire Straits are on a playlist of Scottish artists I put together for Burns Night on that basis.
    Which makes it even less relevant who Geordies prefer between him and Sting then!
    Actually clicking on the link it says "County of origin", you are right it will have Mr Knopfler down a a Scot.
    What do they use for bands, founding lead singer member ?
    If so then The Cure (founded in my own home town of Crawley) isn't quite right as Robert Smith was actually born in Blackpool.
    The map is ludicrous when you scrutinise it. No logic (some bands included, many not, whatever their actual birthplace) and a poor choice of artists, it’s certainly not sales

    Herefordshire: Ellie Goulding??! What? Who?

    Most of the Pretenders came from Herefordshire, I believe. A vastly more important musical presence who sold way more records than… Ellie Goulding


    The non mention of Led Zeppelin is what kills it's cred for me.
    Some bands are just forever associated with a particular city or county, regardless of where individuals might be born.

    Soft Machine in Canterbury, Pulp in Sheffield, Blur in Essex, ELO or Black Sabbath in Brum, Nick Drake in Warwickshire, the Animals in Newcastle etc.

    Some cities - London, Manchester, Birmingham, Bristol, Liverpool, Cambridge, Canterbury, and I guess Sheffield, have or had well defined “scenes” or even “sounds”.

    Leeds seems to be a black hole; not much seems to have come from there.
    Zeppelin were largely Brum, along with Sabbath. I had (perhaps erroneously) also thought that the third part of the "unholy trinity", Deep Purple were also Brum in their roots?
    I agree, in my head, Led Zep are West Midlands.
    But they were formed, I think in London. Only Plant and Bonham were Midlanders.

    If I was from Brum I would claim them.
    50 years since Led Zep IV
  • Farooq said:

    Cyclefree said:

    dixiedean said:

    Only on PB could a simple map of musicians by county provoke such an outpouring of quibbling, pedantry, nit-picking and whataboutery.
    Along with useless trivia, personal anecdotes and opinion.
    Superb. Keep it up.

    OK then.

    Roland Gift of the Fine Young Cannibals came to my birthday parties. He and I were friends for a while. I went out with the artist brother of the lead guitarist of The Buzzcocks. I knew Tony Wilson and hung out at the Hacienda and his home in my dissolute past.

    Will that do?
    I was sick on James Dean Bradfield
    Sometimes PBers make it so easy for me to make rude gags.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,812
    As I think I’ve related before, I stood next to Kanye at the urinal.

    I did not peek, and I hope he did not either.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,812
    edited November 2021

    Leon said:

    Pulpstar said:

    AlistairM said:
    Seems the Geordies prefer Gordon Sumner over Mark Knopfler.

    (Actually I see that Sting and I attended the same university, he to do teacher training, me to do my CIPD).
    I think the county only refers to where the artist is born, and it's the artist with most worldwide record sales in each county. So it doesn't matter who Geordies prefer, Sting has sold more records.
    Knopfler was born in Glasgow. Dire Straits are on a playlist of Scottish artists I put together for Burns Night on that basis.
    Which makes it even less relevant who Geordies prefer between him and Sting then!
    Actually clicking on the link it says "County of origin", you are right it will have Mr Knopfler down a a Scot.
    What do they use for bands, founding lead singer member ?
    If so then The Cure (founded in my own home town of Crawley) isn't quite right as Robert Smith was actually born in Blackpool.
    The map is ludicrous when you scrutinise it. No logic (some bands included, many not, whatever their actual birthplace) and a poor choice of artists, it’s certainly not sales

    Herefordshire: Ellie Goulding??! What? Who?

    Most of the Pretenders came from Herefordshire, I believe. A vastly more important musical presence who sold way more records than… Ellie Goulding


    The non mention of Led Zeppelin is what kills it's cred for me.
    Some bands are just forever associated with a particular city or county, regardless of where individuals might be born.

    Soft Machine in Canterbury, Pulp in Sheffield, Blur in Essex, ELO or Black Sabbath in Brum, Nick Drake in Warwickshire, the Animals in Newcastle etc.

    Some cities - London, Manchester, Birmingham, Bristol, Liverpool, Cambridge, Canterbury, and I guess Sheffield, have or had well defined “scenes” or even “sounds”.

    Leeds seems to be a black hole; not much seems to have come from there.
    Zeppelin were largely Brum, along with Sabbath. I had (perhaps erroneously) also thought that the third part of the "unholy trinity", Deep Purple were also Brum in their roots?
    I agree, in my head, Led Zep are West Midlands.
    But they were formed, I think in London. Only Plant and Bonham were Midlanders.

    If I was from Brum I would claim them.
    50 years since Led Zep IV
    Terrifying innit.

    Although happily, a lot of those 70 or 71 albums are being very nicely remastered to celebrate their anniversary.
  • Cyclefree said:

    dixiedean said:

    Only on PB could a simple map of musicians by county provoke such an outpouring of quibbling, pedantry, nit-picking and whataboutery.
    Along with useless trivia, personal anecdotes and opinion.
    Superb. Keep it up.

    OK then.

    Roland Gift of the Fine Young Cannibals came to my birthday parties. He and I were friends for a while. I went out with the artist brother of the lead guitarist of The Buzzcocks. I knew Tony Wilson and hung out at the Hacienda and his home in my dissolute past.

    Will that do?
    You hung out with Tony Wilson? Wow, respect.
  • FarooqFarooq Posts: 10,775

    Farooq said:

    Cyclefree said:

    dixiedean said:

    Only on PB could a simple map of musicians by county provoke such an outpouring of quibbling, pedantry, nit-picking and whataboutery.
    Along with useless trivia, personal anecdotes and opinion.
    Superb. Keep it up.

    OK then.

    Roland Gift of the Fine Young Cannibals came to my birthday parties. He and I were friends for a while. I went out with the artist brother of the lead guitarist of The Buzzcocks. I knew Tony Wilson and hung out at the Hacienda and his home in my dissolute past.

    Will that do?
    I was sick on James Dean Bradfield
    Sometimes PBers make it so easy for me to make rude gags.
    Then do it. I can take it. I can take it all.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,074
    kinabalu said:

    Good header from @Cyclefree but I personally don't think there's much wrong with either the rules on MP 2nd jobs or their enforcement. Eg Paterson transgressed and he was caught. BJ & his cronies then intervened in bad faith. Far from the system not working it was (in their eyes) working only too well. So they tried to neuter it and get rid of the independent person in charge. This, together with corruption around government contracts, is the scandal and it's a humdinger.

    What's the way forward on standards in public life? Well it's no surprise that they plummet when we have a PM utterly devoid of them himself. There's the problem right there. So the answer isn't new rules & new systems, it lies with the voters from whom he derives his power. Via first opinion polls and then voting booths they need to deliver a clear message in the requisite simple 3 word format for our times: Taxi For Johnson.

    While I agree that the person at the top really matters, the rules are not working.

    First they don't stop it happening, which is what we should be aiming for. Not catching after the event. Pre-approval makes the boundaries effective.

    Second, what's the punishment? An absence from the House. Big bloody deal. The penalty needs to be financial ie the return of the money made.

    Third, the rules seem to have a default assumption that MPs should use their status as MPs to get other paid work. I would like the assumption to be the other way around. Paid work only if it has nothing to do with being an MP and if you want to fight the corner of pressure groups, companies etc you do that as part of your job not in return for payment.

  • BurgessianBurgessian Posts: 2,395

    Pulpstar said:

    AlistairM said:
    I didn't realise Olivia Newton-John was from Cambridge. Apparently her father worked for MI5 at Bletchley Park during the Second World War.
    Surprised

    AlistairM said:
    I didn't realise Olivia Newton-John was from Cambridge. Apparently her father worked for MI5 at Bletchley Park during the Second World War.
    Poor old London. Could have had Bowie instead they get Sir Elton.
    Sir Elton has sold a crazy amount of records, only behind the Beatles in the UK.
    Yep. And the Rubettes probably sold more than Roxy Music. That comparison is perhaps being a bit unfair to Sir Elt.

    Little know fact. Both Bryan Ferry and Elton John auditioned as a singer for King Crimson.
    Both turned down. Some guy, Robert Fripp.
    (King Crimson, BTW, are well worth discovering if you've hitherto overlooked them. And are still touring.)
    Wasn't ELP's Lake in King Crimson?
    Everyone's been in King Crimson.
    Greg Lake sang and played on their first two records. Crimson have been through multiple line-ups, and been regularly collapsed, and revived by the one constant member, Robert Fripp. Fairly breathtaking range of musical styles over the years, the one constant being Fripp's demand for exemplary musicianship and a relative lack of interest in sales. Only the first phase of KC really qualifies as prog.
  • OT two HSBC managers jailed for 12 years for siphoning £900,000 from customers' accounts.

    But look at the timescale. Three years from arrest to sentence, and that is despite their guilty pleas. The Justice Secretary really needs to pull his finger out. If the criminal justice system is to be effective, it needs to be timely.
    https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/hsbc-managers-jailed-900k-fraud-customers-accounts-b965646.html

    Financial crimes like this are complex.

    One of the red flags for many of us in the industry is if they admit their guilt early then they are hoping we don't investigate further and find more of their crimes.

    Then you've got to write multiple victim impact statements and POCAs.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,718
    Cyclefree said:

    dixiedean said:

    Only on PB could a simple map of musicians by county provoke such an outpouring of quibbling, pedantry, nit-picking and whataboutery.
    Along with useless trivia, personal anecdotes and opinion.
    Superb. Keep it up.

    OK then.

    Roland Gift of the Fine Young Cannibals came to my birthday parties. He and I were friends for a while. I went out with the artist brother of the lead guitarist of The Buzzcocks. I knew Tony Wilson and hung out at the Hacienda and his home in my dissolute past.

    Will that do?
    When I was at college we booked Acker Bilk (etc) for one of our Rag events. I was on the committee so we met them in the equivalent of the green too . One of the band also gave my girlfriend a very large neat gin.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 38,851
    Cyclefree said:

    dixiedean said:

    Only on PB could a simple map of musicians by county provoke such an outpouring of quibbling, pedantry, nit-picking and whataboutery.
    Along with useless trivia, personal anecdotes and opinion.
    Superb. Keep it up.

    OK then.

    Roland Gift of the Fine Young Cannibals came to my birthday parties. He and I were friends for a while. I went out with the artist brother of the lead guitarist of The Buzzcocks. I knew Tony Wilson and hung out at the Hacienda and his home in my dissolute past.

    Will that do?
    My 1st wife fancied Roland Gift something rotten and she wasn't alone. Many were those who wouldn't have minded being nibbled at by that particular fine young cannibal.
  • Leon said:

    Pulpstar said:

    AlistairM said:
    Seems the Geordies prefer Gordon Sumner over Mark Knopfler.

    (Actually I see that Sting and I attended the same university, he to do teacher training, me to do my CIPD).
    I think the county only refers to where the artist is born, and it's the artist with most worldwide record sales in each county. So it doesn't matter who Geordies prefer, Sting has sold more records.
    Knopfler was born in Glasgow. Dire Straits are on a playlist of Scottish artists I put together for Burns Night on that basis.
    Which makes it even less relevant who Geordies prefer between him and Sting then!
    Actually clicking on the link it says "County of origin", you are right it will have Mr Knopfler down a a Scot.
    What do they use for bands, founding lead singer member ?
    If so then The Cure (founded in my own home town of Crawley) isn't quite right as Robert Smith was actually born in Blackpool.
    The map is ludicrous when you scrutinise it. No logic (some bands included, many not, whatever their actual birthplace) and a poor choice of artists, it’s certainly not sales

    Herefordshire: Ellie Goulding??! What? Who?

    Most of the Pretenders came from Herefordshire, I believe. A vastly more important musical presence who sold way more records than… Ellie Goulding


    The non mention of Led Zeppelin is what kills it's cred for me.
    Some bands are just forever associated with a particular city or county, regardless of where individuals might be born.

    Soft Machine in Canterbury, Pulp in Sheffield, Blur in Essex, ELO or Black Sabbath in Brum, Nick Drake in Warwickshire, the Animals in Newcastle etc.

    Some cities - London, Manchester, Birmingham, Bristol, Liverpool, Cambridge, Canterbury, and I guess Sheffield, have or had well defined “scenes” or even “sounds”.

    Leeds seems to be a black hole; not much seems to have come from there.
    Zeppelin were largely Brum, along with Sabbath. I had (perhaps erroneously) also thought that the third part of the "unholy trinity", Deep Purple were also Brum in their roots?
    The original Purple members appear to have come from all over. The Hertfordshire connection seems to be that they occupied a country house in South Mimms when they first started recording.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,842

    OT two HSBC managers jailed for 12 years for siphoning £900,000 from customers' accounts.

    But look at the timescale. Three years from arrest to sentence, and that is despite their guilty pleas. The Justice Secretary really needs to pull his finger out. If the criminal justice system is to be effective, it needs to be timely.
    https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/hsbc-managers-jailed-900k-fraud-customers-accounts-b965646.html

    Financial crimes like this are complex.

    One of the red flags for many of us in the industry is if they admit their guilt early then they are hoping we don't investigate further and find more of their crimes.

    Then you've got to write multiple victim impact statements and POCAs.
    After they're out, they should have to pay it all back.
  • StockyStocky Posts: 9,653
    Cyclefree said:

    dixiedean said:

    Only on PB could a simple map of musicians by county provoke such an outpouring of quibbling, pedantry, nit-picking and whataboutery.
    Along with useless trivia, personal anecdotes and opinion.
    Superb. Keep it up.

    OK then.

    Roland Gift of the Fine Young Cannibals came to my birthday parties. He and I were friends for a while. I went out with the artist brother of the lead guitarist of The Buzzcocks. I knew Tony Wilson and hung out at the Hacienda and his home in my dissolute past.

    Will that do?
    Just showing off, that is.

  • kinabalu said:

    Cyclefree said:

    dixiedean said:

    Only on PB could a simple map of musicians by county provoke such an outpouring of quibbling, pedantry, nit-picking and whataboutery.
    Along with useless trivia, personal anecdotes and opinion.
    Superb. Keep it up.

    OK then.

    Roland Gift of the Fine Young Cannibals came to my birthday parties. He and I were friends for a while. I went out with the artist brother of the lead guitarist of The Buzzcocks. I knew Tony Wilson and hung out at the Hacienda and his home in my dissolute past.

    Will that do?
    My 1st wife fancied Roland Gift something rotten and she wasn't alone. Many were those who wouldn't have minded being nibbled at by that particular fine young cannibal.
    So your first wife, she drives me crazy is what you're telling us ?
  • pigeonpigeon Posts: 4,088
    MaxPB said:

    The Times have got an article on the virus situation in Europe, it's extremely gloomy. Fingers crossed that our strategy of chasing herd immunity in the summer and autumn has worked. I really can't do another lockdown.

    The wave is spreading inexorably westwards on mainland Europe - the panic in Germany I was writing about the other night, vaxports reinstated in Denmark, lockdown for the unvaccinated in Austria, and a partial lockdown for everyone in the Netherlands. Meanwhile, cases here are on a steady downward trajectory: there's reason to suppose that the unspoken but clearly deliberate tactic of saturating schoolkids with the virus, so most've them have already had it before Winter really starts to bite, is working.

    I think there's a decent chance we get away without a new wave of rules in this country, and if there is any significant tumbling backwards (such as insistence upon the dreaded masks here, there and everywhere) then it's more likely to be down to wetting over flu piling on top of Covid, rather than Covid itself.

    Actual lockdowns are probably over. Quite beside the fact that the country can't afford to pay for them, they would completely shred what's left of the Government's reputation.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 46,263

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    @Leon the bassnectar remix of her song Lights is regarded by some as up there as one of the best electronic dance music tracks of its sub-genre.

    Link please?

    I like finding new music, indeed eager to hear it. But the regular versions of Ellie Goulding don’t do it for me, I’m afraid
    Can do Apple Music https://music.apple.com/gb/album/lights-bassnectar-remix/1444884316?i=1444884325
    In afraid it’s awful.
    Yes it’s terrible. Also, how could you possibly dance to it?!


    Last night I did discover an unexpectedly great dance song. Friendships, by Pascal Letoublon

    It has inspired a brilliant dance craze worldwide. Watch this to the end, I guarantee it will leave you smiling

    https://youtu.be/Dh4sjcsIE_E
    Yes, it’s pretty good. Interesting example of how Tiktok is influencing music videos.
    It’s fabulous. Another video

    https://youtu.be/okzGINsQIlc

    Young people all over the world just dancing themselves stupid - but doing it brilliantly. By the sea. In a garage. On a street. In a car park

    After two years of bloody horror, it feels joyous

    I tried to learn the Shuffle Dance last night. Let’s just say it’s quite hard if you’re over 49. Or 25?

    Maybe my kids can teach me
  • Pulpstar said:

    AlistairM said:
    I didn't realise Olivia Newton-John was from Cambridge. Apparently her father worked for MI5 at Bletchley Park during the Second World War.
    Surprised

    AlistairM said:
    I didn't realise Olivia Newton-John was from Cambridge. Apparently her father worked for MI5 at Bletchley Park during the Second World War.
    Poor old London. Could have had Bowie instead they get Sir Elton.
    Sir Elton has sold a crazy amount of records, only behind the Beatles in the UK.
    Yep. And the Rubettes probably sold more than Roxy Music. That comparison is perhaps being a bit unfair to Sir Elt.

    Little know fact. Both Bryan Ferry and Elton John auditioned as a singer for King Crimson.
    Both turned down. Some guy, Robert Fripp.
    (King Crimson, BTW, are well worth discovering if you've hitherto overlooked them. And are still touring.)
    Wasn't ELP's Lake in King Crimson?
    Everyone's been in King Crimson.
    Greg Lake sang and played on their first two records. Crimson have been through multiple line-ups, and been regularly collapsed, and revived by the one constant member, Robert Fripp. Fairly breathtaking range of musical styles over the years, the one constant being Fripp's demand for exemplary musicianship and a relative lack of interest in sales. Only the first phase of KC really qualifies as prog.
    If Crimson is basically Fripp, then Dorset (Wimborne) should be the county for them on the map.

    There is very old bbc documentary which I have somewhere on VHS tape about his growing up in that part of the world. iirc he was about to train to become an estate manager when he suddenly took fright and headed to london with his guitar. I think in the film he actually goes to see his mate who he was going to train with who actually became an estate manager.

    They compare notes on their lives.
  • isamisam Posts: 40,731
    Heathener said:

    Leon said:

    Taz said:

    AlistairM said:
    Seems the Geordies prefer Gordon Sumner over Mark Knopfler.

    (Actually I see that Sting and I attended the same university, he to do teacher training, me to do my CIPD).
    I think the county only refers to where the artist is born, and it's the artist with most worldwide record sales in each county. So it doesn't matter who Geordies prefer, Sting has sold more records.
    Knopfler was born in Glasgow. Dire Straits are on a playlist of Scottish artists I put together for Burns Night on that basis.
    Which makes it even less relevant who Geordies prefer between him and Sting then!
    Erm... Pink Floyd - Cambridge? Surely one of the biggest worldwide sellers of all time.
    Nick Mason was a Brummie. Still is.
    Yes, but the core members, Syd and Roger were from Cambridge , not sure about others and then Dave Gilmour who joined later was also from Cambridge. Plenty of Cambridge references in songs and album covers by Storm Thorgerson who went to school with Syd and Roger
    Definitely a Cambridge band. “Grantchester Meadows” on Ummagumma…
    This is a stretch.

    Nick Mason is from Surrey (went to Frensham Heights) and Richard Wright was from Middlesex.

    After Syd Barrett's departure in 1968, of the four settled members of Pink Floyd, two had nothing to do with Cambridge.

    But the two that did wrote and sung almost all the songs, and the one that left wrote and sung all the early ones, so they were the most influential, and all from Cambridge
  • pigeon said:

    MaxPB said:

    The Times have got an article on the virus situation in Europe, it's extremely gloomy. Fingers crossed that our strategy of chasing herd immunity in the summer and autumn has worked. I really can't do another lockdown.

    The wave is spreading inexorably westwards on mainland Europe - the panic in Germany I was writing about the other night, vaxports reinstated in Denmark, lockdown for the unvaccinated in Austria, and a partial lockdown for everyone in the Netherlands. Meanwhile, cases here are on a steady downward trajectory: there's reason to suppose that the unspoken but clearly deliberate tactic of saturating schoolkids with the virus, so most've them have already had it before Winter really starts to bite, is working.

    I think there's a decent chance we get away without a new wave of rules in this country, and if there is any significant tumbling backwards (such as insistence upon the dreaded masks here, there and everywhere) then it's more likely to be down to wetting over flu piling on top of Covid, rather than Covid itself.

    Actual lockdowns are probably over. Quite beside the fact that the country can't afford to pay for them, they would completely shred what's left of the Government's reputation.
    As a mate said to me yesterday, what's the CMP going to do - persuade Johnson to go to Sunak to ask for another £100billion of printed money to fund a new lockdown and furlough?

    Yeh, right...
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 38,851
    Cyclefree said:

    kinabalu said:

    Good header from @Cyclefree but I personally don't think there's much wrong with either the rules on MP 2nd jobs or their enforcement. Eg Paterson transgressed and he was caught. BJ & his cronies then intervened in bad faith. Far from the system not working it was (in their eyes) working only too well. So they tried to neuter it and get rid of the independent person in charge. This, together with corruption around government contracts, is the scandal and it's a humdinger.

    What's the way forward on standards in public life? Well it's no surprise that they plummet when we have a PM utterly devoid of them himself. There's the problem right there. So the answer isn't new rules & new systems, it lies with the voters from whom he derives his power. Via first opinion polls and then voting booths they need to deliver a clear message in the requisite simple 3 word format for our times: Taxi For Johnson.

    While I agree that the person at the top really matters, the rules are not working.

    First they don't stop it happening, which is what we should be aiming for. Not catching after the event. Pre-approval makes the boundaries effective.

    Second, what's the punishment? An absence from the House. Big bloody deal. The penalty needs to be financial ie the return of the money made.

    Third, the rules seem to have a default assumption that MPs should use their status as MPs to get other paid work. I would like the assumption to be the other way around. Paid work only if it has nothing to do with being an MP and if you want to fight the corner of pressure groups, companies etc you do that as part of your job not in return for payment.
    Yep, I don't disagree with this, I wouldn't even oppose a ban on 2nd jobs, just to really nail any last semblance of Conflict of Interest, but I'm keen for the focus to stay on Johnson and I do think removing his baleful influence is (easily) the biggest single thing that would improve matters.
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 8,480
    edited November 2021
    Scott_xP said:

    Dom has been blogging again...

    When Vote Leave say that the public knew what they were voting for in 2016 and 2019, it turned out that even their frontman didn't know what he was voting for. https://twitter.com/Dominic2306/status/1459136193162063872

    Really quite extraordinary that that isn't headline news, given it's from the horse's mouth, and how often the argument of a false prospectus has been completed dismissed by the media in favour of the one of Hard Brexit being "democracy".
  • Pulpstar said:

    OT two HSBC managers jailed for 12 years for siphoning £900,000 from customers' accounts.

    But look at the timescale. Three years from arrest to sentence, and that is despite their guilty pleas. The Justice Secretary really needs to pull his finger out. If the criminal justice system is to be effective, it needs to be timely.
    https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/hsbc-managers-jailed-900k-fraud-customers-accounts-b965646.html

    Financial crimes like this are complex.

    One of the red flags for many of us in the industry is if they admit their guilt early then they are hoping we don't investigate further and find more of their crimes.

    Then you've got to write multiple victim impact statements and POCAs.
    After they're out, they should have to pay it all back.
    I suspect they will get POCA'd senseless.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 46,263
    Meanwhile 1000 people crossed the Channel YESTERDAY. That’s 1/3 of a million a year. And this is mid November. When it’s meant to stop

    The Tories need a solution, fast
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,074
    kinabalu said:

    Cyclefree said:

    dixiedean said:

    Only on PB could a simple map of musicians by county provoke such an outpouring of quibbling, pedantry, nit-picking and whataboutery.
    Along with useless trivia, personal anecdotes and opinion.
    Superb. Keep it up.

    OK then.

    Roland Gift of the Fine Young Cannibals came to my birthday parties. He and I were friends for a while. I went out with the artist brother of the lead guitarist of The Buzzcocks. I knew Tony Wilson and hung out at the Hacienda and his home in my dissolute past.

    Will that do?
    My 1st wife fancied Roland Gift something rotten and she wasn't alone. Many were those who wouldn't have minded being nibbled at by that particular fine young cannibal.
    My lips are sealed. 😉

    Though I will say that he was genuinely nice.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 18,891
    Cyclefree said:

    dixiedean said:

    Only on PB could a simple map of musicians by county provoke such an outpouring of quibbling, pedantry, nit-picking and whataboutery.
    Along with useless trivia, personal anecdotes and opinion.
    Superb. Keep it up.

    OK then.

    Roland Gift of the Fine Young Cannibals came to my birthday parties. He and I were friends for a while. I went out with the artist brother of the lead guitarist of The Buzzcocks. I knew Tony Wilson and hung out at the Hacienda and his home in my dissolute past.

    Will that do?
    Oh dear I bet we know each other.
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 8,480
    edited November 2021
    Leon said:

    Meanwhile 1000 people crossed the Channel YESTERDAY. That’s 1/3 of a million a year. And this is mid November. When it’s meant to stop

    The Tories need a solution, fast

    With so many bridges having been burnt with neighbours, I can't see one coming any time soon. They've supposedly alighted on the bizarre solution of processing people in Albania - which is a fitting metaphor for Brexit, in itself - but that doesn't seem to be happening any time soon, either.
  • BurgessianBurgessian Posts: 2,395

    Pulpstar said:

    AlistairM said:
    I didn't realise Olivia Newton-John was from Cambridge. Apparently her father worked for MI5 at Bletchley Park during the Second World War.
    Surprised

    AlistairM said:
    I didn't realise Olivia Newton-John was from Cambridge. Apparently her father worked for MI5 at Bletchley Park during the Second World War.
    Poor old London. Could have had Bowie instead they get Sir Elton.
    Sir Elton has sold a crazy amount of records, only behind the Beatles in the UK.
    Yep. And the Rubettes probably sold more than Roxy Music. That comparison is perhaps being a bit unfair to Sir Elt.

    Little know fact. Both Bryan Ferry and Elton John auditioned as a singer for King Crimson.
    Both turned down. Some guy, Robert Fripp.
    (King Crimson, BTW, are well worth discovering if you've hitherto overlooked them. And are still touring.)
    Wasn't ELP's Lake in King Crimson?
    Everyone's been in King Crimson.
    Greg Lake sang and played on their first two records. Crimson have been through multiple line-ups, and been regularly collapsed, and revived by the one constant member, Robert Fripp. Fairly breathtaking range of musical styles over the years, the one constant being Fripp's demand for exemplary musicianship and a relative lack of interest in sales. Only the first phase of KC really qualifies as prog.
    If Crimson is basically Fripp, then Dorset (Wimborne) should be the county for them on the map.

    There is very old bbc documentary which I have somewhere on VHS tape about his growing up in that part of the world. iirc he was about to train to become an estate manager when he suddenly took fright and headed to london with his guitar. I think in the film he actually goes to see his mate who he was going to train with who actually became an estate manager.

    They compare notes on their lives.
    Fripp, of course, went on to marry Toyah Willcox, and they have been amusing us all through lockdown with their Sunday Lunches on YouTube. Watch and Shudder...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JIiGhwLgBUw
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,074
    kinabalu said:

    Cyclefree said:

    kinabalu said:

    Good header from @Cyclefree but I personally don't think there's much wrong with either the rules on MP 2nd jobs or their enforcement. Eg Paterson transgressed and he was caught. BJ & his cronies then intervened in bad faith. Far from the system not working it was (in their eyes) working only too well. So they tried to neuter it and get rid of the independent person in charge. This, together with corruption around government contracts, is the scandal and it's a humdinger.

    What's the way forward on standards in public life? Well it's no surprise that they plummet when we have a PM utterly devoid of them himself. There's the problem right there. So the answer isn't new rules & new systems, it lies with the voters from whom he derives his power. Via first opinion polls and then voting booths they need to deliver a clear message in the requisite simple 3 word format for our times: Taxi For Johnson.

    While I agree that the person at the top really matters, the rules are not working.

    First they don't stop it happening, which is what we should be aiming for. Not catching after the event. Pre-approval makes the boundaries effective.

    Second, what's the punishment? An absence from the House. Big bloody deal. The penalty needs to be financial ie the return of the money made.

    Third, the rules seem to have a default assumption that MPs should use their status as MPs to get other paid work. I would like the assumption to be the other way around. Paid work only if it has nothing to do with being an MP and if you want to fight the corner of pressure groups, companies etc you do that as part of your job not in return for payment.
    Yep, I don't disagree with this, I wouldn't even oppose a ban on 2nd jobs, just to really nail any last semblance of Conflict of Interest, but I'm keen for the focus to stay on Johnson and I do think removing his baleful influence is (easily) the biggest single thing that would improve matters.
    Agreed. Our governmental conventions depend so much on those in power being basically "good chaps". When they aren't, the whole thing falls over. Even the best rules aren't proof against someone who doesn't believe in any self-restraint at all.

    But even when Johnson goes we should not breathe a sigh of relief and assume that our problems are over. We really need to strengthen our democracy because next time the PM might be someone who is less obviously shameless but equally damaging.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 47,789
    Netherlands to impose new lockdown and restrictions affecting all people - vaccinated or not - effective from tomorrow night.

    https://twitter.com/disclosetv/status/1459119157295861761
  • Mr. Oracle, unfair comment.

    The French were doing fuck all about the migrant boats before we left and they're doing fuck all now.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,074
    Roger said:

    Cyclefree said:

    dixiedean said:

    Only on PB could a simple map of musicians by county provoke such an outpouring of quibbling, pedantry, nit-picking and whataboutery.
    Along with useless trivia, personal anecdotes and opinion.
    Superb. Keep it up.

    OK then.

    Roland Gift of the Fine Young Cannibals came to my birthday parties. He and I were friends for a while. I went out with the artist brother of the lead guitarist of The Buzzcocks. I knew Tony Wilson and hung out at the Hacienda and his home in my dissolute past.

    Will that do?
    Oh dear I bet we know each other.
    Why "oh dear"? You are privileged. As am sure am I.
  • Netherlands to impose new lockdown and restrictions affecting all people - vaccinated or not - effective from tomorrow night.

    https://twitter.com/disclosetv/status/1459119157295861761

    I'd wait until there's a more legitimate source than "disclosetv" for confirmation on that.

    Sad if true. Its an utter failure to allow the exit wave to happen in the summer and autumn.

    Zero Covid zealots may call me callous from being accepting of the fact some people will die from endemic Covid - but this is the alternative and its worse.
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 7,461
    edited November 2021
    Leon said:

    Meanwhile 1000 people crossed the Channel YESTERDAY. That’s 1/3 of a million a year. And this is mid November. When it’s meant to stop

    The Tories need a solution, fast

    They should put that Priti Patel on the case, she'd sort it.
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 8,480
    edited November 2021

    Mr. Oracle, unfair comment.

    The French were doing fuck all about the migrant boats before we left and they're doing fuck all now.

    Numbers are noticeably higher. The French have no incentive at all now ; negotiations are complete and we're out. Speaking honestly it wouldn't be my highest priority if I was Macron, either.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 46,263

    Leon said:

    Meanwhile 1000 people crossed the Channel YESTERDAY. That’s 1/3 of a million a year. And this is mid November. When it’s meant to stop

    The Tories need a solution, fast

    They should put Priti Patel on the case, she'd sort it.
    Her career is in the balance now. If she can’t stop this. 1000 a day in November is an invasion and it’s only going to get worse. We may have to accept very unpleasant measures that make us feel very bad
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,842

    Mr. Oracle, unfair comment.

    The French were doing fuck all about the migrant boats before we left and they're doing fuck all now.

    The only way to start to stop it is ID cards.
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 7,461
    edited November 2021
    Roger said:

    Cyclefree said:

    dixiedean said:

    Only on PB could a simple map of musicians by county provoke such an outpouring of quibbling, pedantry, nit-picking and whataboutery.
    Along with useless trivia, personal anecdotes and opinion.
    Superb. Keep it up.

    OK then.

    Roland Gift of the Fine Young Cannibals came to my birthday parties. He and I were friends for a while. I went out with the artist brother of the lead guitarist of The Buzzcocks. I knew Tony Wilson and hung out at the Hacienda and his home in my dissolute past.

    Will that do?
    Oh dear I bet we know each other.
    Are you by any chance the artist brother of the lead guitarist of The Buzzcocks?
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 32,739
    Leon said:

    Meanwhile 1000 people crossed the Channel YESTERDAY. That’s 1/3 of a million a year. And this is mid November. When it’s meant to stop

    The Tories need a solution, fast

    it's a Brexit dividend...
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 47,789

    Netherlands to impose new lockdown and restrictions affecting all people - vaccinated or not - effective from tomorrow night.

    https://twitter.com/disclosetv/status/1459119157295861761

    I'd wait until there's a more legitimate source than "disclosetv" for confirmation on that.

    Sad if true. Its an utter failure to allow the exit wave to happen in the summer and autumn.

    Zero Covid zealots may call me callous from being accepting of the fact some people will die from endemic Covid - but this is the alternative and its worse.
    Yes, they might be jumping the gun. The Dutch equivalent of SAGE is advising a three-week partial lockdown but I'm not sure if a decision had been made yet.

    https://nos.nl/artikel/2405168-omt-adviseert-korte-beperkte-lockdown-daarna-2g-kabinet-moet-nog-beslissen
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 8,480
    edited November 2021
    Cyclefree said:

    kinabalu said:

    Cyclefree said:

    kinabalu said:

    Good header from @Cyclefree but I personally don't think there's much wrong with either the rules on MP 2nd jobs or their enforcement. Eg Paterson transgressed and he was caught. BJ & his cronies then intervened in bad faith. Far from the system not working it was (in their eyes) working only too well. So they tried to neuter it and get rid of the independent person in charge. This, together with corruption around government contracts, is the scandal and it's a humdinger.

    What's the way forward on standards in public life? Well it's no surprise that they plummet when we have a PM utterly devoid of them himself. There's the problem right there. So the answer isn't new rules & new systems, it lies with the voters from whom he derives his power. Via first opinion polls and then voting booths they need to deliver a clear message in the requisite simple 3 word format for our times: Taxi For Johnson.

    While I agree that the person at the top really matters, the rules are not working.

    First they don't stop it happening, which is what we should be aiming for. Not catching after the event. Pre-approval makes the boundaries effective.

    Second, what's the punishment? An absence from the House. Big bloody deal. The penalty needs to be financial ie the return of the money made.

    Third, the rules seem to have a default assumption that MPs should use their status as MPs to get other paid work. I would like the assumption to be the other way around. Paid work only if it has nothing to do with being an MP and if you want to fight the corner of pressure groups, companies etc you do that as part of your job not in return for payment.
    Yep, I don't disagree with this, I wouldn't even oppose a ban on 2nd jobs, just to really nail any last semblance of Conflict of Interest, but I'm keen for the focus to stay on Johnson and I do think removing his baleful influence is (easily) the biggest single thing that would improve matters.
    Agreed. Our governmental conventions depend so much on those in power being basically "good chaps". When they aren't, the whole thing falls over. Even the best rules aren't proof against someone who doesn't believe in any self-restraint at all.

    But even when Johnson goes we should not breathe a sigh of relief and assume that our problems are over. We really need to strengthen our democracy because next time the PM might be someone who is less obviously shameless but equally damaging.
    As often also mentioned, the U.S. is in urgent need of parallel safeguards for a more efficient Trump, too.
  • Mr. Pulpstar, bollocks.

    Impose a border. Stop them at sea and tow them back with just enough fuel to reach France, or process them in some obscure corner of the world that's either freezing cold or boiling hot.

    We should also have contributory or time-based benefits, but the political class won't even countenance removing a prime draw for migrants.

    And, of course, we should invade France.
  • pigeonpigeon Posts: 4,088

    Netherlands to impose new lockdown and restrictions affecting all people - vaccinated or not - effective from tomorrow night.

    https://twitter.com/disclosetv/status/1459119157295861761

    I'd wait until there's a more legitimate source than "disclosetv" for confirmation on that.

    Sad if true. Its an utter failure to allow the exit wave to happen in the summer and autumn.

    Zero Covid zealots may call me callous from being accepting of the fact some people will die from endemic Covid - but this is the alternative and its worse.
    From the Graun:

    The Netherlands will become the first western European country to impose a partial lockdown since the summer, Dutch media have reported, introducing strict new measures from Saturday in the face of record numbers of new Covid-19 infections.

    The restrictions, due to be announced by the prime minister, Mark Rutte, on Friday evening and to last at least three weeks, include the closure of bars, restaurants and non-essential shops from 7pm, the public broadcaster NOS said.


    And I agree re: lockdowns. Locking people up over and over and over and over again indefinitely is madness.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 43,625

    Mr. Oracle, unfair comment.

    The French were doing fuck all about the migrant boats before we left and they're doing fuck all now.

    Numbers are noticeably higher. The French have no incentive at all now ; negotiations are complete and we're out. Speaking honestly it wouldn't be my highest priority if I was Macron, either.
    It's largely French regional politics. The French locals *hate* the refugees. Why stop them leaving?
  • AslanAslan Posts: 1,673
    Am I the only person continuously let down by BBC coverage of economic related matters? This is an incredibly long article on Article 16, for example:

    https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-59256153

    They love to talk about what each party involve says at the high level. But there is next to no information that allows the reader to judge who is right. What is the evidence of trade inversion, which is one key test? Doesn't say. What is the evidence of how stringent the EU is being on checks? Doesn't say. What are the actual changes in checks the UK wants? Which categories of goods not checked or what information should be not given? Doesn't say. What would be the scale of the impacts if those checks were relaxed? Doesn't say.

    It just seems like lazy reporting. If you ever listen to an RTE broadcast, they go into precisely this stuff, despite far lower resources. It's just sloppiness from the BBC and the lack of actual fact base is a big part of everyone interpreting things through existing prejudices and making us more politically divided.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,842
    edited November 2021

    Mr. Pulpstar, bollocks.

    Impose a border. Stop them at sea and tow them back with just enough fuel to reach France, or process them in some obscure corner of the world that's either freezing cold or boiling hot.

    We should also have contributory or time-based benefits, but the political class won't even countenance removing a prime draw for migrants.

    And, of course, we should invade France.

    All your suggestions are far more impractical than an ID card scheme.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,718

    Mr. Pulpstar, bollocks.

    Impose a border. Stop them at sea and tow them back with just enough fuel to reach France, or process them in some obscure corner of the world that's either freezing cold or boiling hot.

    We should also have contributory or time-based benefits, but the political class won't even countenance removing a prime draw for migrants.

    And, of course, we should invade France.

    We could stop the less developed world learning/speaking English of course.
  • TazTaz Posts: 10,704
    Leon said:

    Meanwhile 1000 people crossed the Channel YESTERDAY. That’s 1/3 of a million a year. And this is mid November. When it’s meant to stop

    The Tories need a solution, fast

    They can’t stop a few ageing hippies and young trustafarians from blocking the roads on a whim, the party of law and order has no chance here.
    MattW said:

    Taz said:

    Here's a shock. Left behind regions to get left further behind with transition to Green economy.

    https://www.msn.com/en-gb/money/other/move-to-green-economy-risks-jobs-in-some-parts-of-the-uk-report-warns/ar-AAQBqr3?ocid=entnewsntp&pc=U531

    Some sympathy for that, I think.

    Though I've wondered about offshore wind in due course being as beneficial as oil, as an energy supply export.

    Though we will continue to need steel, oil and plastic in different combination, and there's no reason why these can't stay in the same places, or those places be repurposed.

    One of their 'victim' areas is Port Talbot, which I would say has been poleaxed at least partly by the Welsh Govt's decision not to build an effective transport system to get there with.
    Transport is one of the key issues. The north east has pitiful transport links and has to beg for scraps off the table.
  • AlistairMAlistairM Posts: 2,004
    Cases in the Netherlands per person are about 50% higher than they are in the UK at present. The problem for them is that we are almost at winter and they haven't been building up community immunity over the Summer or doing boosters. Other countries in Europe will not be far behind. Belgium, Austria and Ireland are probably worse already. I don't see how a "unvaccinated-only" lockdown can possibly be enforced.
  • HYUFD said:

    Charles said:

    HYUFD said:

    AlistairM said:
    Keane were a few years above me at school
    I was at school with James Blount

    But I’m not sure he qualifies as a musician…
    He is actually pretty good, we saw him at Audley End in August.

    Though I believe he went to Harrow not Eton
    He has an excellent twitter game though I haven't seen much lately, perhaps he's bored by it now.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 38,851
    I knew a member of T'Pau.
  • Canvey Island is very proud of the Dr. Feelgood connection.

    Rightly so!
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 43,625
    Pulpstar said:

    Mr. Pulpstar, bollocks.

    Impose a border. Stop them at sea and tow them back with just enough fuel to reach France, or process them in some obscure corner of the world that's either freezing cold or boiling hot.

    We should also have contributory or time-based benefits, but the political class won't even countenance removing a prime draw for migrants.

    And, of course, we should invade France.

    All your suggestions are far more impractical than an ID card scheme.
    My solution is simple.

    Anyone entering the UK without valid documents is deemed to have enlisted in the Royal Navy under a revived Conscription Act. Said enlistment begins the moment they are picked up by the RN, and continues for 7 years. No shore leave - just transferred from ship to ship as they return.

    This solves the manning problem in the Royal Navy - and they must be good seamen to make it across the Channel - and the refugee crisis in one go.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 46,263
    This paragraph from the Times article Max mentions is troubling

    "There are other reasons to be concerned. “The Delta variant has reshuffled the cards,” Drosten, one of Angela Merkel’s most trusted scientific advisers, said. “Soon it will very swiftly become transmissible among the vaccinated.""

    Is he just saying what we all know, vaxxed people can still spread the bug? If this is news to the Germans then it might explain the panic. Or is this some new development, or variant, or what?
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 8,480
    edited November 2021
    kinabalu said:

    I knew a member of T'Pau.

    I once saw a member of the Wurzels on the bus. More interestingly, my wife knew and still knows some of Syd Barrett's London coterie, which included both Jonathan Meades and the man who unfortunately and supposedly drove Syd Barrett mad, by dropping daily acid in his coffee.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 24,587
    Pulpstar said:

    Mr. Pulpstar, bollocks.

    Impose a border. Stop them at sea and tow them back with just enough fuel to reach France, or process them in some obscure corner of the world that's either freezing cold or boiling hot.

    We should also have contributory or time-based benefits, but the political class won't even countenance removing a prime draw for migrants.

    And, of course, we should invade France.

    All your suggestions are far more impractical than an ID card scheme.
    That's easier said than done without triggering a vanity by election in Haltemprice and Howden.
  • pigeonpigeon Posts: 4,088
    edited November 2021

    Mr. Oracle, unfair comment.

    The French were doing fuck all about the migrant boats before we left and they're doing fuck all now.

    Numbers are noticeably higher. The French have no incentive at all now ; negotiations are complete and we're out. Speaking honestly it wouldn't be my highest priority if I was Macron, either.
    It's largely French regional politics. The French locals *hate* the refugees. Why stop them leaving?
    Besides which, if people are either determined or desperate enough then nothing will stop them unless the authorities are willing to let them die wholesale, as we see in the Mediterranean migrant drownings, and as we are starting to see on the Belarusian border. Lukashenko has weaponised those migrants; the Poles (and, by extension, the rest of the EU, which is backing them) won't let him get away with it. So, unless the Belarusian Government is willing to let aid agencies help them, the migrants will all perish of exposure over the Winter.

    The British Government isn't nasty enough to shoot the boat people and isn't competent enough to offshore them, so they'll just keep coming. They are so many unwanted parcels being passed across borders. The French want rid of them, so are delighted to let them board their dinghies. So long as some of them can still get through the remaining gaps in the EU's external frontier, those that want to come here will eventually turn up along the shores of the Channel - and we'll have no choice but to take the whole lot in.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,074
    Off topic, this - https://www.thenorthernecho.co.uk/news/19713295.court-appeal-declines-increase-sentence-darlington-killer-sam-pybus/ - is an awful decision.

    In effect, the judges have said that men can choke a woman to death during sex and then defend themselves by saying that she asked for it. The "rough sex" defence was meant to have been abolished in the Domestic Abuse Act last year.

    And so a man kills a woman and gets four and a half years. Four and a half years for a woman's life. In reality he will be inside for about two.

    But yeah let's have campaigns instead against Violence Against Women and Girls. A bit of PR words, that should do it.

    Sickening.

  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,603

    Netherlands to impose new lockdown and restrictions affecting all people - vaccinated or not - effective from tomorrow night.

    https://twitter.com/disclosetv/status/1459119157295861761

    I'd wait until there's a more legitimate source than "disclosetv" for confirmation on that.

    Sad if true. Its an utter failure to allow the exit wave to happen in the summer and autumn.

    Zero Covid zealots may call me callous from being accepting of the fact some people will die from endemic Covid - but this is the alternative and its worse.
    Dutch media have had it for a few hours already, official announcement this evening.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 46,263
    pigeon said:

    Mr. Oracle, unfair comment.

    The French were doing fuck all about the migrant boats before we left and they're doing fuck all now.

    Numbers are noticeably higher. The French have no incentive at all now ; negotiations are complete and we're out. Speaking honestly it wouldn't be my highest priority if I was Macron, either.
    It's largely French regional politics. The French locals *hate* the refugees. Why stop them leaving?
    Besides which, if people are either determined or desperate enough then nothing will stop them unless the authorities are willing to let them die wholesale, as we see in the Mediterranean migrant drownings, and as we are starting to see on the Belarusian border. Lukashenko has weaponised those migrants; the Poles (and, by extension, the rest of the EU, which is backing them) won't let him get away with it. So, unless the Belarusian Government is willing to let aid agencies help them, the migrants will all perish of exposure over the Winter.

    The British Government isn't nasty enough to shoot the boat people and isn't competent enough to offshore them, so they'll just keep coming. They are so many unwanted parcels being passed across borders. The French want rid of them, so are delighted to let them board their dinghies. So long as some of them can still get through the remaining gaps in the EU's external frontier, those that want to come here will eventually turn up along the shores of the Channel - and we'll have no choice but to take the whole lot in.
    But that's it. Even with a humane/spineless government like ours, the numbers could get so big the UK will have to let many die

    Let's say the EU frontier crumbles in the East and south and hundreds of thousands get in. Quite possible, if not probable. Why not just wave them through, when so many of them want to go to the UK?

    They speak English, if they speak any foreign language

    Then we could see 2000 or 4000 or 6000 crossing in a day (the numbers have already doubled in a year or so). THAT is utterly unsustainable. It could be half a million a year, total. A million.

    At that point the grim decision would be taken. Don't let them cross.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,718
    edited November 2021
    Leon said:

    This paragraph from the Times article Max mentions is troubling

    "There are other reasons to be concerned. “The Delta variant has reshuffled the cards,” Drosten, one of Angela Merkel’s most trusted scientific advisers, said. “Soon it will very swiftly become transmissible among the vaccinated.""

    Is he just saying what we all know, vaxxed people can still spread the bug? If this is news to the Germans then it might explain the panic. Or is this some new development, or variant, or what?

    Mrs C and, I, both double-vaccinated caught Covid. Did we spread it; don’t think so. We were staying with relatives for a few days before, and they’ve both been fine.
    Boosters today so should be OK for a while at least.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 47,789
    Leon said:

    This paragraph from the Times article Max mentions is troubling

    "There are other reasons to be concerned. “The Delta variant has reshuffled the cards,” Drosten, one of Angela Merkel’s most trusted scientific advisers, said. “Soon it will very swiftly become transmissible among the vaccinated.""

    Is he just saying what we all know, vaxxed people can still spread the bug? If this is news to the Germans then it might explain the panic. Or is this some new development, or variant, or what?

    I think it's just what we all know. Der Spiegel is talking apocalyptically about "Germany's corona disaster" with millions of unvaccinated people facing a "Delta winter".
  • isamisam Posts: 40,731
    A friend of mine is a pretty famous DJ from Havering. I’d say most people under 45 would say he was bigger than Ian Dury.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 46,263
    MaxPB said:

    Netherlands to impose new lockdown and restrictions affecting all people - vaccinated or not - effective from tomorrow night.

    https://twitter.com/disclosetv/status/1459119157295861761

    I'd wait until there's a more legitimate source than "disclosetv" for confirmation on that.

    Sad if true. Its an utter failure to allow the exit wave to happen in the summer and autumn.

    Zero Covid zealots may call me callous from being accepting of the fact some people will die from endemic Covid - but this is the alternative and its worse.
    Dutch media have had it for a few hours already, official announcement this evening.
    Yes, seems almost certain. You were right. New lockdowns in mainland Europe. Please God they don't come here
  • pigeonpigeon Posts: 4,088
    Leon said:

    This paragraph from the Times article Max mentions is troubling

    "There are other reasons to be concerned. “The Delta variant has reshuffled the cards,” Drosten, one of Angela Merkel’s most trusted scientific advisers, said. “Soon it will very swiftly become transmissible among the vaccinated.""

    Is he just saying what we all know, vaxxed people can still spread the bug? If this is news to the Germans then it might explain the panic. Or is this some new development, or variant, or what?

    Sounds like the former. I think that the Germans are panicking because they are entering a phase of the pandemic where, whilst case rates aren't remotely as bad as they have been in previous peaks in Britain, they are worse then they have ever experienced before - and climbing.

    If things carry on as they are for another few days in our respective countries then we'll reach crossover in terms of case rates, and that's despite the fact that Germany has more restrictions and conducts a lot fewer tests per capita. Some of their hospitals are also starting to scream like the NHS, and they have a lower vaccination rate.

    That's what's going on here. There's no sign of any new variant that is vastly more potent or transmissible than Delta.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 47,789
    pigeon said:

    Leon said:

    This paragraph from the Times article Max mentions is troubling

    "There are other reasons to be concerned. “The Delta variant has reshuffled the cards,” Drosten, one of Angela Merkel’s most trusted scientific advisers, said. “Soon it will very swiftly become transmissible among the vaccinated.""

    Is he just saying what we all know, vaxxed people can still spread the bug? If this is news to the Germans then it might explain the panic. Or is this some new development, or variant, or what?

    Sounds like the former. I think that the Germans are panicking because they are entering a phase of the pandemic where, whilst case rates aren't remotely as bad as they have been in previous peaks in Britain, they are worse then they have ever experienced before - and climbing.

    If things carry on as they are for another few days in our respective countries then we'll reach crossover in terms of case rates, and that's despite the fact that Germany has more restrictions and conducts a lot fewer tests per capita. Some of their hospitals are also starting to scream like the NHS, and they have a lower vaccination rate.

    That's what's going on here. There's no sign of any new variant that is vastly more potent or transmissible than Delta.
    https://www.spiegel.de/wissenschaft/medizin/christian-drosten-deutschland-ist-vom-ende-der-pandemie-noch-meilenweit-entfernt-a-598ea5b5-d385-46bb-a1fd-af767db33655

    Drosten: "We have to maneuver slowly and carefully into the endemic phase without our health system collapsing due to excessive demands and deaths like in Great Britain."
  • LeonLeon Posts: 46,263
    pigeon said:

    Leon said:

    This paragraph from the Times article Max mentions is troubling

    "There are other reasons to be concerned. “The Delta variant has reshuffled the cards,” Drosten, one of Angela Merkel’s most trusted scientific advisers, said. “Soon it will very swiftly become transmissible among the vaccinated.""

    Is he just saying what we all know, vaxxed people can still spread the bug? If this is news to the Germans then it might explain the panic. Or is this some new development, or variant, or what?

    Sounds like the former. I think that the Germans are panicking because they are entering a phase of the pandemic where, whilst case rates aren't remotely as bad as they have been in previous peaks in Britain, they are worse then they have ever experienced before - and climbing.

    If things carry on as they are for another few days in our respective countries then we'll reach crossover in terms of case rates, and that's despite the fact that Germany has more restrictions and conducts a lot fewer tests per capita. Some of their hospitals are also starting to scream like the NHS, and they have a lower vaccination rate.

    That's what's going on here. There's no sign of any new variant that is vastly more potent or transmissible than Delta.
    Yes that was my assumption. Let's hope we are right. The Germans do not quite seem psychologically prepared; they should also be boostering everyone in sight, right now. Having no one in charge at the top is probably not helping
  • AlistairMAlistairM Posts: 2,004

    Leon said:

    This paragraph from the Times article Max mentions is troubling

    "There are other reasons to be concerned. “The Delta variant has reshuffled the cards,” Drosten, one of Angela Merkel’s most trusted scientific advisers, said. “Soon it will very swiftly become transmissible among the vaccinated.""

    Is he just saying what we all know, vaxxed people can still spread the bug? If this is news to the Germans then it might explain the panic. Or is this some new development, or variant, or what?

    Mrs C and, I, both double-vaccinated caught Covid. Did we spread it; don’t think so. We were staying with relatives for a few days before, and they’ve both been fine.
    Boosters today so should be OK for a while at least.
    I know lots of double-vaccinated people who have now had Covid, including myself. All mildly. I am still hearing news every week of additional families who almost all seem to get it. There is some definite gap-filling still going on. When I was at the pub on Tuesday it has become a banter-topic over who has had it and who is yet to. Those who have had it generally think the others just need to get it done and out the way.
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 8,480
    edited November 2021

    Mr. Pulpstar, bollocks.

    Impose a border. Stop them at sea and tow them back with just enough fuel to reach France, or process them in some obscure corner of the world that's either freezing cold or boiling hot.

    We should also have contributory or time-based benefits, but the political class won't even countenance removing a prime draw for migrants.

    And, of course, we should invade France.

    Can we stop and fact check please:
    1. Asylum Seeker. Ability to claim benefits: zero.
    2. Illegal not formally here. Ability to claim benefits: zero

    EU migrants could claim benefits. Not these poor sods on dinghies. Its an outright lie to pretend they are coming here for benefits they have no ability to claim.
    That's true. Quite a few are coming for what they perceive to be a less excluding and more promising in the long-term climate than France ; I've heard that quite often.
  • AlistairMAlistairM Posts: 2,004
    Leon said:

    pigeon said:

    Leon said:

    This paragraph from the Times article Max mentions is troubling

    "There are other reasons to be concerned. “The Delta variant has reshuffled the cards,” Drosten, one of Angela Merkel’s most trusted scientific advisers, said. “Soon it will very swiftly become transmissible among the vaccinated.""

    Is he just saying what we all know, vaxxed people can still spread the bug? If this is news to the Germans then it might explain the panic. Or is this some new development, or variant, or what?

    Sounds like the former. I think that the Germans are panicking because they are entering a phase of the pandemic where, whilst case rates aren't remotely as bad as they have been in previous peaks in Britain, they are worse then they have ever experienced before - and climbing.

    If things carry on as they are for another few days in our respective countries then we'll reach crossover in terms of case rates, and that's despite the fact that Germany has more restrictions and conducts a lot fewer tests per capita. Some of their hospitals are also starting to scream like the NHS, and they have a lower vaccination rate.

    That's what's going on here. There's no sign of any new variant that is vastly more potent or transmissible than Delta.
    Yes that was my assumption. Let's hope we are right. The Germans do not quite seem psychologically prepared; they should also be boostering everyone in sight, right now. Having no one in charge at the top is probably not helping
    My German colleague was making this precise point when I spoke to him this week. Says there is no one making the big decisions currently.
  • AlistairMAlistairM Posts: 2,004
    Leon said:

    MaxPB said:

    Netherlands to impose new lockdown and restrictions affecting all people - vaccinated or not - effective from tomorrow night.

    https://twitter.com/disclosetv/status/1459119157295861761

    I'd wait until there's a more legitimate source than "disclosetv" for confirmation on that.

    Sad if true. Its an utter failure to allow the exit wave to happen in the summer and autumn.

    Zero Covid zealots may call me callous from being accepting of the fact some people will die from endemic Covid - but this is the alternative and its worse.
    Dutch media have had it for a few hours already, official announcement this evening.
    Yes, seems almost certain. You were right. New lockdowns in mainland Europe. Please God they don't come here
    It seems harsh in the circumstances but if we can avoid lockdown when other countries in Europe have to then does that give us an economic advantage? One would assume it does but there must be knock-on effects for us of continental Europe locking down again.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,517
    Sandpit said:

    Cyclefree said:

    dixiedean said:

    Only on PB could a simple map of musicians by county provoke such an outpouring of quibbling, pedantry, nit-picking and whataboutery.
    Along with useless trivia, personal anecdotes and opinion.
    Superb. Keep it up.

    OK then.

    Roland Gift of the Fine Young Cannibals came to my birthday parties. He and I were friends for a while. I went out with the artist brother of the lead guitarist of The Buzzcocks. I knew Tony Wilson and hung out at the Hacienda and his home in my dissolute past.

    Will that do?
    You were friends with Roland Gift? He drives me crazy.
    Back in the late 19s0s, he was voted one of the sexiest men alive. I was most annoyed I wasn't on the list, even though I was in my teens.

    He also acted. If you want a weird film, then 'Sammy and Rosie get laid' is an (ahem) 'classic' film that must have been a gift to his acting skills...

    https://www.rogerebert.com/reviews/sammy-and-rosie-get-laid-1987
This discussion has been closed.