politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Deal done – and combined with LEAVE’s Galloway error of jud
politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Deal done – and combined with LEAVE’s Galloway error of judgment, it might be enough
But for Tony Marlow’s blazer, Michael Portillo might have ended up prime minister rather than a rail-hopping TV presenter. To have done so, he needed John Redwood to do sufficiently well in the first round of the Conservative Party leadership election against John Major.
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First out.0
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For a thread (re)written under intense time pressure, this was really very cerebral. Good stuff, and quite accurate I think. Depressingly so for those of an outist persuasion.0
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I don't think anything in this media cycle is very important. The renegotiation was always going to be trivial compared to the actual issue at hand. As long as there's nothing in it that actively demotivates remain supporters, everyone will have forgotten about it by the time they vote. Likewise this particular news cycle.
That said, the leave campaign clearly need to get their shit together.0 -
Does Dave still do that thing of not going to the toilet during meetings?
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/shortcuts/2011/dec/12/david-cameron-full-bladder-technique
If so, he must have had one hell of a wee this evening.
As someone on the centre left, I see the referendum as an argument between the soft right and the hard right. It is not my row. I suspect I may not be alone.0 -
Eh, Leave had to make some attempt to show themselves a broad church. You can't expect to win with just the Right when the Tory PM is against you.0
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Seconded!MyBurningEars said:For a thread (re)written under intense time pressure, this was really very cerebral. Good stuff, and quite accurate I think. Depressingly so for those of an outist persuasion.
Agree that while most wont notice the Galloway (who I suspect is reasonably popular as a 'bit of a card' and a 'straight talker') attendance, others tempted to join leave will - and think twice.
While Gove is a formidable thinker he's not popular 'the weird brainy one'.......0 -
Notoriously Margaret Thatcher used to use a handbag.SouthamObserver said:Does Dave still do that thing of not going to the toilet during meetings?
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/shortcuts/2011/dec/12/david-cameron-full-bladder-technique
If so, he must have had one hell of a wee this evening.0 -
If Boris joins the Leave side I will vote to Remain. I would vote against a totally transparent move inspired by nothing more than a wish for personal advancement. If he doesn't join Leave I cannot see myself voting.edmundintokyo said:I don't think anything in this media cycle is very important. The renegotiation was always going to be trivial compared to the actual issue at hand. As long as there's nothing in it that actively demotivates remain supporters, everyone will have forgotten about it by the time they vote. Likewise this particular news cycle.
That said, the leave campaign clearly need to get their shit together.
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Relatedly, if you're considering backing "leave", now would be a good time. Tomorrow's fish and chip wrapping etc etc.0
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Boris's position is entirely dishonourable, but what Gove has done is born from conviction. He has shown admirable courage and has gone up in my estimation hugely.0
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The question is whether he can give 'Leave' some intellectual heft - or are there too many vane egos competing for attention?SouthamObserver said:Boris's position is entirely dishonourable, but what Gove has done is born from conviction. He has shown admirable courage and has gone up in my estimation hugely.
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In other news:
It’s becoming pretty clear that the SNP won’t promise another referendum after the next Holyrood election. They think they’d lose.
But without it they’ll have nothing to talk about. So maybe their aim is to reject the fiscal framework, whatever is offered and so derail the new powers in the Scotland Bill.
Then they can spend the next five years arguing about power, not exercising it.
http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/devolution-expert-jim-gallagher-asks-7399820#WxZPkzQYIYO0wzF6.990 -
I doubt he'll be at the forefront of the campaign given his close relationship with Dave and George. He's also not hugely popular beyond Tory ranks. What Leave really needs is some mainstream, non-Tories. If Boris is in there seeking the party's leadership and is surrounded by the likes of Farage, Fox and Patterson, it really is going to put a lot of folk off. Does Gove really want to be at the centre of that?CarlottaVance said:
The question is whether he can give 'Leave' some intellectual heft - or are there too many vane egos competing for attention?SouthamObserver said:Boris's position is entirely dishonourable, but what Gove has done is born from conviction. He has shown admirable courage and has gone up in my estimation hugely.
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I love how the Remain campaign are already declaring victory this early over the minor appearance of George Galloway before the campaign has even started. It would be like the Leave campaign claiming they've already won because Lord Rose bumbled over the name of Britain Stronger in Europe (BSE) in an interview. Does this really qualify as serious political analysis?
The headlines are negative for Cameron concerning Gove for Leave. No Galloway.
Whilst personalities can be important, you are correct in saying gut feeling does play a large part. As seen with the Scottish referendum, the level of support for Yes went from around 27% at the beginning of the campaign to an eventual 45% - and that was with the entire media and political class against Yes. In addition, there was also the emotional attachment to Britain and the British identity across a large part of the Scottish electorate.
Remain has none of this. Apart from running a campaign of scaremongering which will only get it so far until people stop believing, it has no emotional appeal to an identity like the No campaign in the Scottish referendum did. Even among those who wish to stay in the EU, the feeling is very much reluctance rather than any emotional bonds to the organisation.
None of us know what will happen so let's stop micro-analysing every single little blunder, marmite politician appearance at a rally of the faithful or bad QT performances. It's more than that sort of tittle tattle which only we political obsessives pay any attention to.0 -
From memory, the SNP stated it would cost £200 million to set up the entire apparatus of independence. It turns out it costs £600 million just to set up a welfare payments system. That's less than oil generates a year now, isn't it?old_labour said:
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Exactly. The Thatcherites and Monday Club Tories seem to believe the referendum is all about their quest to re-capture the party from the Cameroons. The left is essential to any victory.William_H said:Eh, Leave had to make some attempt to show themselves a broad church. You can't expect to win with just the Right when the Tory PM is against you.
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So something else he'll be right out.....old_labour said:0 -
The Sun gets to the heart of the EU.
http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/files/2016/02/CbnEG-BWIAEY9JU-1.jpg0 -
You can't have a pleasant Friday night it seems, let me pay some tribute to his passing:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7-yYJgpQ-CE0 -
Cameron will be delighted with that. Not a betrayal or U-turn in sight.old_labour said:The Sun gets to the heart of the EU.
http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/files/2016/02/CbnEG-BWIAEY9JU-1.jpg
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No - but Leave need a crisp, clear concise message - something they have been sorely lacking - perhaps, behind the scenes, Gove can provide that. But, I suspect i) he wont be listened to and ii) even if he was, they couldn't stick to it.....SouthamObserver said:
I doubt he'll be at the forefront of the campaign given his close relationship with Dave and George. He's also not hugely popular beyond Tory ranks. What Leave really needs is some mainstream, non-Tories. If Boris is in there seeking the party's leadership and is surrounded by the likes of Farage, Fox and Patterson, it really is going to put a lot of folk off. Does Gove really want to be at the centre of that?CarlottaVance said:
The question is whether he can give 'Leave' some intellectual heft - or are there too many vane egos competing for attention?SouthamObserver said:Boris's position is entirely dishonourable, but what Gove has done is born from conviction. He has shown admirable courage and has gone up in my estimation hugely.
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(Previous Thread)
My poems are on my website, if anybody's interested
www.croydonloony.co.uk0 -
Yep - Gallagher:SouthamObserver said:
From memory, the SNP stated it would cost £200 million to set up the entire apparatus of independence. It turns out it costs £600 million just to set up a welfare payments system. That's less than oil generates a year now, isn't it?old_labour said:
Yesterday the Record revealed a Nicola Sturgeon letter to Prime Minister David Cameron. As well as per capita indexation, she made welfare demands – £600million to administer the benefits that Holyrood can run from 2017.
That’s just to pay for the bureaucracy, on top of the £2.5billion cost of the benefits themselves, which the Treasury cover anyway. Administration usually costs three to four per cent of the benefit bill but the SNP want nearly 25 per cent.0 -
"Several Jeb Bush campaign workers are already shopping their résumés with Florida political consultants as expectations mount inside his team that their candidate won’t push on after South Carolina."
http://www.politico.com/story/2016/02/jeb-bush-staffers-campaign-jobs-2195180 -
Where?Viceroy said:I love how the Remain campaign are already declaring victory this early over the minor appearance of George Galloway
On last night's thread it was mainly Leavers who were disappointed at Galloway's appearance.
I think David Herdson has got it about right - Galloway's appearance won't register with the public one way or another - but it will with other public figures who are considering joining Leave but may now have pause for second thoughts.0 -
At least the Belgians have knocked one of the sillier theories on the head:
A new clause states that the terms of the deal will cease to apply if Britain votes to leave. Inserted at Belgian insistence, this "no second chance" measure is designed to head off the threat of a second referendum by making clear to British voters that they will not be able to use additional leverage from a vote for Brexit to secure an improved deal from Europe.
http://www.itv.com/news/2016-02-20/what-is-in-the-reform-deal-britain-reached-with-the-eu/0 -
Well of course it would be scrapped, we'd be after a better oneCarlottaVance said:At least the Belgians have knocked one of the sillier theories on the head:
A new clause states that the terms of the deal will cease to apply if Britain votes to leave. Inserted at Belgian insistence, this "no second chance" measure is designed to head off the threat of a second referendum by making clear to British voters that they will not be able to use additional leverage from a vote for Brexit to secure an improved deal from Europe.
http://www.itv.com/news/2016-02-20/what-is-in-the-reform-deal-britain-reached-with-the-eu/
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(Two threads ago)
Favourite fiction books?
Nineteen Eighty Four, by George Orwell
Animal Farm, by George Orwell
The Aachen Memorandum, by Andrew Roberts
Fatherland, by Robert Harris0 -
Robert Harris was on Radio 3's private passions recently choosing his favourite music. Interesting chap. You can get a free podcast of it, if you like.JohnLoony said:(Two threads ago)
Favourite fiction books?
Nineteen Eighty Four, by George Orwell
Animal Farm, by George Orwell
The Aachen Memorandum, by Andrew Roberts
Fatherland, by Robert Harris0 -
Why Galloway was there:
Bringing in the RESPECT Party helps Grassroots Out’s chance of getting the official designation for the referendum. Because those who check with the Electoral Commission would know that you could have every Cabinet Minister under the sun backing you, but it wouldn’t help with the “cross party” requirement. This is where the establishment Vote Leave are failing. And indeed it is a problem of their making.
So tonight’s events means the pro-establishment, pro-double referendum, Carswell-backed “Vote Leave” campaign won’t get the designation. The jig is up. The game is over. They’ll fold soon. And it means we the British public have a greater… a real chance of leaving the European Union. But what price do we have to pay for that?
http://www.breitbart.com/london/2016/02/19/explaining-galloway-why-gorgeous-george-was-at-the-grassroots-out-event/0 -
Meanwhile the NYT has fun with Tesco straight croissants:
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/02/20/world/europe/croissants-tesco.html0 -
Wouldn't you be better making your choice based on the issue in front of you ?SouthamObserver said:
If Boris joins the Leave side I will vote to Remain. I would vote against a totally transparent move inspired by nothing more than a wish for personal advancement. If he doesn't join Leave I cannot see myself voting.edmundintokyo said:I don't think anything in this media cycle is very important. The renegotiation was always going to be trivial compared to the actual issue at hand. As long as there's nothing in it that actively demotivates remain supporters, everyone will have forgotten about it by the time they vote. Likewise this particular news cycle.
That said, the leave campaign clearly need to get their shit together.0 -
Morning all. Just waded through that marathon thread of poetry and prose and Galloway while waiting for the deal. A very good summary of where we are from Mr Herdson, especially so given the time constraints involved.
Probably a good time to back Leave, the odds are likely to come in significantly from here if the PM's deal starts unraveling and the campaign gets under way. 9/4 from Bet365, 2/1 elsewhere.0 -
You can see the reasoning - but it is rather akin to having to drink a cup of hemlock to get the Electoral Commission's blessing...CarlottaVance said:Why Galloway was there:
Bringing in the RESPECT Party helps Grassroots Out’s chance of getting the official designation for the referendum. Because those who check with the Electoral Commission would know that you could have every Cabinet Minister under the sun backing you, but it wouldn’t help with the “cross party” requirement. This is where the establishment Vote Leave are failing. And indeed it is a problem of their making.
So tonight’s events means the pro-establishment, pro-double referendum, Carswell-backed “Vote Leave” campaign won’t get the designation. The jig is up. The game is over. They’ll fold soon. And it means we the British public have a greater… a real chance of leaving the European Union. But what price do we have to pay for that?
http://www.breitbart.com/london/2016/02/19/explaining-galloway-why-gorgeous-george-was-at-the-grassroots-out-event/0 -
GMB came out for Remain this week.I suspect most of the other unions will too barring the RMT.The end of secret courts in ISDS and the NHS exclusion of TTIP will be outstanding issues .It looks positive for Remain and 60%+ isn't impossible.0
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You're not.SouthamObserver said:Does Dave still do that thing of not going to the toilet during meetings?
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/shortcuts/2011/dec/12/david-cameron-full-bladder-technique
If so, he must have had one hell of a wee this evening.
As someone on the centre left, I see the referendum as an argument between the soft right and the hard right. It is not my row. I suspect I may not be alone.
And someone will be saying to JC: call for abstention, then you won't be lining up behind either of the two Right Wings, and you have nothing to lose by an absurdly low turnout.
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The junior doctors are suddenly realising how important the EWTD is to them too!volcanopete said:GMB came out for Remain this week.I suspect most of the other unions will too barring the RMT.The end of secret courts in ISDS and the NHS exclusion of TTIP will be outstanding issues .It looks positive for Remain and 60%+ isn't impossible.
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Has the deal been published on the web yet? It deserves the same foresic analysis the draft agreement got.
Questions such as, which parts will never in practice see the light of day, have protections for the City been weakened, are British citizens worse off, will the courts strike most of it down anyway, etc, All the points that have been raised on PB since the draft agreement was revealed.0 -
Some Dr friends of mine on Facebook posted some proposed rosters that had them working a night shift followed by a day off and then a day shift. They think this is unfair - does the EWTD protect staff from such rosters? And do you think it is unfair?foxinsoxuk said:
The junior doctors are suddenly realising how important the EWTD is to them too!volcanopete said:GMB came out for Remain this week.I suspect most of the other unions will too barring the RMT.The end of secret courts in ISDS and the NHS exclusion of TTIP will be outstanding issues .It looks positive for Remain and 60%+ isn't impossible.
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+1. But sadly we do have to choose. They are playing with our future. Who do we think will make the least damage? Leave or Remain?SouthamObserver said:
As someone on the centre left, I see the referendum as an argument between the soft right and the hard right. It is not my row. I suspect I may not be alone.0 -
From what we've seen it doesn't look good for the protection for non-Eurozone countries. Apparently we can instigate a discussion if we're not happy with something. Not sure what happens after that.Alasdair said:Has the deal been published on the web yet? It deserves the same foresic analysis the draft agreement got.
Questions such as, which parts will never in practice see the light of day, have protections for the City been weakened, are British citizens worse off, will the courts strike most of it down anyway, etc, All the points that have been raised on PB since the draft agreement was revealed.0 -
I understand the sentiment that this essentially an argument between current and former Conservatives. However, unless one is entirely indifferent to whether we are in the EU or not it makes no sense to abstain. If you are on the left, why delegate a decision to the Tories, which is what abstaining amounts to?Jonathan said:
+1. But sadly we do have to choose. They are playing with our future. Who do we think will make the least damage? Leave or Remain?SouthamObserver said:
As someone on the centre left, I see the referendum as an argument between the soft right and the hard right. It is not my row. I suspect I may not be alone.0 -
Thank you David. Just listening to Farage shouting and screaming on the radio. Leave really have imploded overnight, haven't they?
@Mortimer (I promise this is my last word on the subject!)
The reason we close ranks around criticism is because it never is 'some teachers are rubbish, how do we sort that out?' We're always lumped together and tarred with the same brush (cf. Gove's 'the blob' referring to all teachers, not the vocal 30-40% who were opposing him, therefore antagonising the majority who supported him).
OFSTED graded my school a 3 because one teacher had not marked his books within the fortnight school policy required. Never mind the high quality of the rest. My training provider was downgraded from a 1 to a 2 because of one physics teacher working a 70 hour week shouting at the children for talking across him. It didn't matter that the report classified every other pathway, especially history, as outstanding.
Under such circumstances it is very easy to develop a siege mentality, although actually in private we are often considerably angrier about bad teaching than outsiders because not only are they damaging the education of the children we want to do well, but they are damaging us as well. The damage done by Senator Joe Woodhead, failed teacher extraordinaire with his numbers plucked out of thin air to increase his own power base, lives on.
Remember, no teacher wakes up on Monday morning thinking 'how do I screw the children I'm teaching?' (other than a few gruesome exceptions like Woodhead and Jeremy Forrest). Those who don't at least want to do well don't last. But we never seem to get praise - only criticism. It's very frustrating.
Thank you @MyBurningEars for those lovely clear explanations of the new maths GCSE. That was really helpful. Can I reiterate I much prefer the new history GCSE, although the comment on pitching and targeting applies even more there. I'm just worried at how rushed the whole thing is, which was a decision made by Gove for personal political reasons.0 -
As someone who has done a lot of shift work over the years, what's the rest of the week like?tlg86 said:
Some Dr friends of mine on Facebook posted some proposed rosters that had them working a night shift followed by a day off and then a day shift. They think this is unfair - does the EWTD protect staff from such rosters? And do you think it is unfair?foxinsoxuk said:
The junior doctors are suddenly realising how important the EWTD is to them too!volcanopete said:GMB came out for Remain this week.I suspect most of the other unions will too barring the RMT.The end of secret courts in ISDS and the NHS exclusion of TTIP will be outstanding issues .It looks positive for Remain and 60%+ isn't impossible.
Swapping from nights to days with a day off is nothing unusual.
But if the week is swinging from nights to days and back again, then that is very unfair.0 -
Absolutely! I don't really care how people vote - but I care very much that they should - low turnout would be a very great pity - whatever the result.Wanderer said:
I understand the sentiment that this essentially an argument between current and former Conservatives. However, unless one is entirely indifferent to whether we are in the EU or not it makes no sense to abstain. If you are on the left, why delegate a decision to the Tories, which is what abstaining amounts to?Jonathan said:
+1. But sadly we do have to choose. They are playing with our future. Who do we think will make the least damage? Leave or Remain?SouthamObserver said:
As someone on the centre left, I see the referendum as an argument between the soft right and the hard right. It is not my row. I suspect I may not be alone.0 -
The rosters posted by the Employers were a real mess. Impossible to cover with childcare and some had staff working two consecutive weekends (something Hunt promised would never happen). Swapping shifts would be just about impossible too.tlg86 said:
Some Dr friends of mine on Facebook posted some proposed rosters that had them working a night shift followed by a day off and then a day shift. They think this is unfair - does the EWTD protect staff from such rosters? And do you think it is unfair?foxinsoxuk said:
The junior doctors are suddenly realising how important the EWTD is to them too!volcanopete said:GMB came out for Remain this week.I suspect most of the other unions will too barring the RMT.The end of secret courts in ISDS and the NHS exclusion of TTIP will be outstanding issues .It looks positive for Remain and 60%+ isn't impossible.
The BMA JDC is meeting this weekend to decide its response to contract imposition.
And yes, the new proposed contract requires staff to opt out of the EWTD for many rotas.0 -
The trouble is a result is a result. Look at the respect accorded top (some anyway) Police & Crime Commissioners, despite the absurdly low turnouts in their elections.Innocent_Abroad said:
You're not.SouthamObserver said:Does Dave still do that thing of not going to the toilet during meetings?
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/shortcuts/2011/dec/12/david-cameron-full-bladder-technique
If so, he must have had one hell of a wee this evening.
As someone on the centre left, I see the referendum as an argument between the soft right and the hard right. It is not my row. I suspect I may not be alone.
And someone will be saying to JC: call for abstention, then you won't be lining up behind either of the two Right Wings, and you have nothing to lose by an absurdly low turnout.0 -
Thanks for that; I really don't know what the Tories are playing at. During the run up to the 2011 Census I worked some very long hours, but the that was project work and there was an end in sight.foxinsoxuk said:
The rosters posted by the Employers were a real mess. Impossible to cover with childcare and some had staff working two consecutive weekends (something Hunt promised would never happen). Swapping shifts would be just about impossible too.tlg86 said:
Some Dr friends of mine on Facebook posted some proposed rosters that had them working a night shift followed by a day off and then a day shift. They think this is unfair - does the EWTD protect staff from such rosters? And do you think it is unfair?foxinsoxuk said:
The junior doctors are suddenly realising how important the EWTD is to them too!volcanopete said:GMB came out for Remain this week.I suspect most of the other unions will too barring the RMT.The end of secret courts in ISDS and the NHS exclusion of TTIP will be outstanding issues .It looks positive for Remain and 60%+ isn't impossible.
The BMA JDC is meeting this weekend to decide its response to contract imposition.
And yes, the new proposed contract requires staff to opt out of the EWTD for many rotas.
All I ask of the junior doctors is that they don't agree to a deal that simply gives them more money. They've, quite rightly, questioned the safety of some of the changes and that should remain key to the negotiations.0 -
One of the most impressive politicians on the Remain side who has so far been overlooked is Nicola. Though on the opposite side to many during the Scottish referendum she emerged as a persuasive and serious talent.
it's becomming difficult to see how this group of essentially rightwing mavericks and ne'er do wells are going to compete with the massed forces of reason they're going to face. I'll go 70/30
More interesting than the result might be the political careers that will end in ruin. What can the future hold for the six Tory cabinet ministers sharing a platform with Farage and Galloway?0 -
They'll become known as Gorgeous George's Tortious ToriesRoger said:One of the most impressive politicians on the Remain side who has so far been overlooked is Nicola. Though on the opposite side to many during the Scottish referendum she emerged as a persuasive and serious talent.
it's becomming difficult to see how this group of essentially rightwing mavericks and ne'er do wells are going to compete with the massed forces of reason they're going to face. I'll go 70/30
More interesting than the result might be the political careers that will end in ruin. What can the future hold for the six Tory cabinet ministers sharing a platform with Farage and Galloway?
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Boris might recover. He has a remarkable capacity for surviving stupid mistakes and he had always been seen, however wrongly, as a maverick outsider. I don't think Gove or Grayling will still be the darlings of the Right though, particularly given their failures as ministers. Grayling and IDS are surely finished. Gove would be brought on if Cameron stayed, for personal reasons, but I think the new PM will quietly demote him at the first reshuffle.Roger said:
More interesting than the result might be the political careers that will end in ruin. What can the future hold for the six Tory cabinet ministers sharing a platform with Farage and Galloway?0 -
Regardless of the outcome I'm surprised and disappointed how the referendum has developed into such a personality contest, especially among supposed political thinkers on here. So many people seem to be basing their vote on the stance of individuals which I find extraordinary.
99% of those actively involved are self serving, ignore them, make your judgement on the issues not the personalities involved.
The scenario is playing out exactly as predicted so far, it will be interesting when the smoking gun from the negotiations is found. I still refuse to predict the outcome and I'm not a trader but I'd suggest backing Leave today, the price between now and June will tighten at some stage.0 -
Yes. I look forward to her arguing persuasively in favour of the Union.......Roger said:One of the most impressive politicians on the Remain side who has so far been overlooked is Nicola.
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That would seem sensible.asjohnstone said:
Wouldn't you be better making your choice based on the issue in front of you ?SouthamObserver said:
If Boris joins the Leave side I will vote to Remain. I would vote against a totally transparent move inspired by nothing more than a wish for personal advancement. If he doesn't join Leave I cannot see myself voting.edmundintokyo said:I don't think anything in this media cycle is very important. The renegotiation was always going to be trivial compared to the actual issue at hand. As long as there's nothing in it that actively demotivates remain supporters, everyone will have forgotten about it by the time they vote. Likewise this particular news cycle.
That said, the leave campaign clearly need to get their shit together.
Last night we had Ms Cyclefree saying that she had to vote REMAIN because if Leave wins people like Galloway might get into power in an independent UK. This, of course, follows on from Mr Meeks, who is voting REMAIN because if Leave wins people like Farage might get into power in an independent UK.
Neither of them seems to trust the British electorate not to vote for such nutcases, and I don't understand why.0 -
One reason might be FPTP which can elect nutcases in a 4- or 5-party system quite easily.ThreeQuidder said:
That would seem sensible.asjohnstone said:
Wouldn't you be better making your choice based on the issue in front of you ?SouthamObserver said:
If Boris joins the Leave side I will vote to Remain. I would vote against a totally transparent move inspired by nothing more than a wish for personal advancement. If he doesn't join Leave I cannot see myself voting.edmundintokyo said:I don't think anything in this media cycle is very important. The renegotiation was always going to be trivial compared to the actual issue at hand. As long as there's nothing in it that actively demotivates remain supporters, everyone will have forgotten about it by the time they vote. Likewise this particular news cycle.
That said, the leave campaign clearly need to get their shit together.
Last night we had Ms Cyclefree saying that she had to vote REMAIN because if Leave wins people like Galloway might get into power in an independent UK. This, of course, follows on from Mr Meeks, who is voting REMAIN because if Leave wins people like Farage might get into power in an independent UK.
Neither of them seems to trust the British electorate not to vote for such nutcases, and I don't understand why.
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Well this is my point, previously sensible people are losing their marbles.ThreeQuidder said:
That would seem sensible.asjohnstone said:
Wouldn't you be better making your choice based on the issue in front of you ?SouthamObserver said:
If Boris joins the Leave side I will vote to Remain. I would vote against a totally transparent move inspired by nothing more than a wish for personal advancement. If he doesn't join Leave I cannot see myself voting.edmundintokyo said:I don't think anything in this media cycle is very important. The renegotiation was always going to be trivial compared to the actual issue at hand. As long as there's nothing in it that actively demotivates remain supporters, everyone will have forgotten about it by the time they vote. Likewise this particular news cycle.
That said, the leave campaign clearly need to get their shit together.
Last night we had Ms Cyclefree saying that she had to vote REMAIN because if Leave wins people like Galloway might get into power in an independent UK. This, of course, follows on from Mr Meeks, who is voting REMAIN because if Leave wins people like Farage might get into power in an independent UK.
Neither of them seems to trust the British electorate not to vote for such nutcases, and I don't understand why.
Look, if we vote to Leave it means we are free from EU restrictions and regulations, our councillors, MPs and Lords won't change. It doesn't mean Cameron is taken to the Tower and Farage becomes PM with Galloway as Chancellor.0 -
That's how celebrity endorsement works. If a supermarket gets Jamie Oliver to recommend their croissants sales will rocket. No one asks the why the consumers don't take the trouble to compare ingredientsblackburn63 said:Regardless of the outcome I'm surprised and disappointed how the referendum has developed into such a personality contest, especially among supposed political thinkers on here. So many people seem to be basing their vote on the stance of individuals which I find extraordinary.
99% of those actively involved are self serving, ignore them, make your judgement on the issues not the personalities involved.
The scenario is playing out exactly as predicted so far, it will be interesting when the smoking gun from the negotiations is found. I still refuse to predict the outcome and I'm not a trader but I'd suggest backing Leave today, the price between now and June will tighten at some stage.0 -
Yuk.Roger said:
That's how celebrity endorsement works. If a supermarket gets Jamie Oliver to recommend their croissants sales will rocket. No one asks the why the consumers don't take the trouble to compare ingredientsblackburn63 said:Regardless of the outcome I'm surprised and disappointed how the referendum has developed into such a personality contest, especially among supposed political thinkers on here. So many people seem to be basing their vote on the stance of individuals which I find extraordinary.
99% of those actively involved are self serving, ignore them, make your judgement on the issues not the personalities involved.
The scenario is playing out exactly as predicted so far, it will be interesting when the smoking gun from the negotiations is found. I still refuse to predict the outcome and I'm not a trader but I'd suggest backing Leave today, the price between now and June will tighten at some stage.
The EU referendum reduced to celebrity endorsement.0 -
how does being in or out ofthe EU stop maveriscks getting elected under FPTP ?Innocent_Abroad said:
One reason might be FPTP which can elect nutcases in a 4- or 5-party system quite easily.ThreeQuidder said:
That would seem sensible.asjohnstone said:
Wouldn't you be better making your choice based on the issue in front of you ?SouthamObserver said:
If Boris joins the Leave side I will vote to Remain. I would vote against a totally transparent move inspired by nothing more than a wish for personal advancement. If he doesn't join Leave I cannot see myself voting.edmundintokyo said:I don't think anything in this media cycle is very important. The renegotiation was always going to be trivial compared to the actual issue at hand. As long as there's nothing in it that actively demotivates remain supporters, everyone will have forgotten about it by the time they vote. Likewise this particular news cycle.
That said, the leave campaign clearly need to get their shit together.
Last night we had Ms Cyclefree saying that she had to vote REMAIN because if Leave wins people like Galloway might get into power in an independent UK. This, of course, follows on from Mr Meeks, who is voting REMAIN because if Leave wins people like Farage might get into power in an independent UK.
Neither of them seems to trust the British electorate not to vote for such nutcases, and I don't understand why.0 -
An interesting one!CarlottaVance said:
Yes. I look forward to her arguing persuasively in favour of the Union.......Roger said:One of the most impressive politicians on the Remain side who has so far been overlooked is Nicola.
"Under this gaberdine there is no other shelter hereabout.
Misery aquaints a man with strange bedfellows"0 -
No one said it did. What they said was that mavericks could do more damage if we quit the EU.Alanbrooke said:
how does being in or out ofthe EU stop maveriscks getting elected under FPTP ?Innocent_Abroad said:
One reason might be FPTP which can elect nutcases in a 4- or 5-party system quite easily.ThreeQuidder said:
That would seem sensible.asjohnstone said:
Wouldn't you be better making your choice based on the issue in front of you ?SouthamObserver said:
If Boris joins the Leave side I will vote to Remain. I would vote against a totally transparent move inspired by nothing more than a wish for personal advancement. If he doesn't join Leave I cannot see myself voting.edmundintokyo said:I don't think anything in this media cycle is very important. The renegotiation was always going to be trivial compared to the actual issue at hand. As long as there's nothing in it that actively demotivates remain supporters, everyone will have forgotten about it by the time they vote. Likewise this particular news cycle.
That said, the leave campaign clearly need to get their shit together.
Last night we had Ms Cyclefree saying that she had to vote REMAIN because if Leave wins people like Galloway might get into power in an independent UK. This, of course, follows on from Mr Meeks, who is voting REMAIN because if Leave wins people like Farage might get into power in an independent UK.
Neither of them seems to trust the British electorate not to vote for such nutcases, and I don't understand why.
0 -
Do you seriously think that's still true?Roger said:
That's how celebrity endorsement works. If a supermarket gets Jamie Oliver to recommend their croissants sales will rocket. No one asks the why the consumers don't take the trouble to compare ingredientsblackburn63 said:Regardless of the outcome I'm surprised and disappointed how the referendum has developed into such a personality contest, especially among supposed political thinkers on here. So many people seem to be basing their vote on the stance of individuals which I find extraordinary.
99% of those actively involved are self serving, ignore them, make your judgement on the issues not the personalities involved.
The scenario is playing out exactly as predicted so far, it will be interesting when the smoking gun from the negotiations is found. I still refuse to predict the outcome and I'm not a trader but I'd suggest backing Leave today, the price between now and June will tighten at some stage.
It may well drive awareness of 'Desperate Supermarket's Croissants' but the overwhelming majority of British people will think 'Jamie Oliver's being paid to say that' - and while that may tempt a tiny minority, but most will file it under 'The croissants probably cost more 'coz they've got to pay Jamie Oliver'.
On EURef - the views of Farage & co will be discounted - though as we've seen from the polling, Cameron will add weight to 'Remain'.
Luvvies will be discounted - 'what does Michael Caine/Emma Thomson know about the tapered child benefit rules...?'
Among undecided Conservatives I suspect Gove will carry some weight - whereas Boris will be seen as either a brown nose merchant or schemer.....
I'm struggling to think of any 'big names' who might help tip things one way or the other.....0 -
Maybe Nigel Lawson can get his daughter on board for Leave. She might sway a few undecideds.blackburn63 said:
Yuk.Roger said:
That's how celebrity endorsement works. If a supermarket gets Jamie Oliver to recommend their croissants sales will rocket. No one asks the why the consumers don't take the trouble to compare ingredientsblackburn63 said:Regardless of the outcome I'm surprised and disappointed how the referendum has developed into such a personality contest, especially among supposed political thinkers on here. So many people seem to be basing their vote on the stance of individuals which I find extraordinary.
99% of those actively involved are self serving, ignore them, make your judgement on the issues not the personalities involved.
The scenario is playing out exactly as predicted so far, it will be interesting when the smoking gun from the negotiations is found. I still refuse to predict the outcome and I'm not a trader but I'd suggest backing Leave today, the price between now and June will tighten at some stage.
The EU referendum reduced to celebrity endorsement.0 -
Under PR, Farage would be an MP.Innocent_Abroad said:
One reason might be FPTP which can elect nutcases in a 4- or 5-party system quite easily.ThreeQuidder said:
That would seem sensible.asjohnstone said:
Wouldn't you be better making your choice based on the issue in front of you ?SouthamObserver said:
If Boris joins the Leave side I will vote to Remain. I would vote against a totally transparent move inspired by nothing more than a wish for personal advancement. If he doesn't join Leave I cannot see myself voting.edmundintokyo said:I don't think anything in this media cycle is very important. The renegotiation was always going to be trivial compared to the actual issue at hand. As long as there's nothing in it that actively demotivates remain supporters, everyone will have forgotten about it by the time they vote. Likewise this particular news cycle.
That said, the leave campaign clearly need to get their shit together.
Last night we had Ms Cyclefree saying that she had to vote REMAIN because if Leave wins people like Galloway might get into power in an independent UK. This, of course, follows on from Mr Meeks, who is voting REMAIN because if Leave wins people like Farage might get into power in an independent UK.
Neither of them seems to trust the British electorate not to vote for such nutcases, and I don't understand why.0 -
I cannot believe how stupid the GO campaign has been. I was shocked and disgusted to see Galloway appear on stage, and even as a committed BOOer, had momentary thoughts of whether or not I wanted to be associated with a campaign that has Galloway in it.0
-
So the EU exists to save Britain from the British.Innocent_Abroad said:
No one said it did. What they said was that mavericks could do more damage if we quit the EU.Alanbrooke said:
how does being in or out ofthe EU stop maveriscks getting elected under FPTP ?Innocent_Abroad said:
One reason might be FPTP which can elect nutcases in a 4- or 5-party system quite easily.ThreeQuidder said:
That would seem sensible.asjohnstone said:
Wouldn't you be better making your choice based on the issue in front of you ?SouthamObserver said:
If Boris joins the Leave side I will vote to Remain. I would vote against a totally transparent move inspired by nothing more than a wish for personal advancement. If he doesn't join Leave I cannot see myself voting.edmundintokyo said:I don't think anything in this media cycle is very important. The renegotiation was always going to be trivial compared to the actual issue at hand. As long as there's nothing in it that actively demotivates remain supporters, everyone will have forgotten about it by the time they vote. Likewise this particular news cycle.
That said, the leave campaign clearly need to get their shit together.
Last night we had Ms Cyclefree saying that she had to vote REMAIN because if Leave wins people like Galloway might get into power in an independent UK. This, of course, follows on from Mr Meeks, who is voting REMAIN because if Leave wins people like Farage might get into power in an independent UK.
Neither of them seems to trust the British electorate not to vote for such nutcases, and I don't understand why.
Yuk.0 -
Farage, Galloway, John Redwood, IDS, Gove, Bill Cash
versus
Cameron, Hilary Benn, George Osborne, Chuka Umunna, Tim Farron, Alan Johnson
Wonder who will win.0 -
Good morning, everyone.
Only heard a little last night. What's the state of play regarding the financial sector?0 -
Establishment versus the rest.logical_song said:Farage, Galloway, John Redwood, IDS, Gove, Bill Cash
versus
Cameron, Hilary Benn, George Osborne, Chuka Umunna, Tim Farron, Alan Johnson
Wonder who will win.
Depends how much the mood is kick the establishment.0 -
Obviously Farage and Galloway won't be in government. No one supposes that.blackburn63 said:
Well this is my point, previously sensible people are losing their marbles.ThreeQuidder said:
That would seem sensible.asjohnstone said:
Wouldn't you be better making your choice based on the issue in front of you ?SouthamObserver said:
If Boris joins the Leave side I will vote to Remain. I would vote against a totally transparent move inspired by nothing more than a wish for personal advancement. If he doesn't join Leave I cannot see myself voting.edmundintokyo said:I don't think anything in this media cycle is very important. The renegotiation was always going to be trivial compared to the actual issue at hand. As long as there's nothing in it that actively demotivates remain supporters, everyone will have forgotten about it by the time they vote. Likewise this particular news cycle.
That said, the leave campaign clearly need to get their shit together.
Last night we had Ms Cyclefree saying that she had to vote REMAIN because if Leave wins people like Galloway might get into power in an independent UK. This, of course, follows on from Mr Meeks, who is voting REMAIN because if Leave wins people like Farage might get into power in an independent UK.
Neither of them seems to trust the British electorate not to vote for such nutcases, and I don't understand why.
Look, if we vote to Leave it means we are free from EU restrictions and regulations, our councillors, MPs and Lords won't change. It doesn't mean Cameron is taken to the Tower and Farage becomes PM with Galloway as Chancellor.
What is extremely likely, following a Leave win, is that Cameron resigns and that the Tory Eurosceptic right gains control of the Government. For me, that would be deeply unwelcome. It's far from the only reason I will be voting Remain but it's one of them.
That the EU is of transcendent importance is something Leave needs to persuade people of. It's not self-evident.0 -
Are you saying people on the hard left shouldnt have an opinion ?Blue_rog said:I cannot believe how stupid the GO campaign has been. I was shocked and disgusted to see Galloway appear on stage, and even as a committed BOOer, had momentary thoughts of whether or not I wanted to be associated with a campaign that has Galloway in it.
0 -
Mr. Wanderer, if the EU isn't of transcendent importance, there's no danger from leaving it
0 -
Common Purpose v Common SenseAlanbrooke said:
Establishment versus the rest.logical_song said:Farage, Galloway, John Redwood, IDS, Gove, Bill Cash
versus
Cameron, Hilary Benn, George Osborne, Chuka Umunna, Tim Farron, Alan Johnson
Wonder who will win.
Depends how much the mood is kick the establishment.
Not a difficult choice for me.0 -
I'm not an expert, and this is only a small part of the document, but this doesn't fill me with much confidence:Morris_Dancer said:Good morning, everyone.
Only heard a little last night. What's the state of play regarding the financial sector?
https://twitter.com/alexebarker/status/7007955017263431680 -
On this board? Or with the voters? HINT: the score will be 1-1logical_song said:Farage, Galloway, John Redwood, IDS, Gove, Bill Cash
versus
Cameron, Hilary Benn, George Osborne, Chuka Umunna, Tim Farron, Alan Johnson
Wonder who will win.
0 -
I'm still spitting blood about this.Alanbrooke said:
Are you saying people on the hard left shouldnt have an opinion ?Blue_rog said:I cannot believe how stupid the GO campaign has been. I was shocked and disgusted to see Galloway appear on stage, and even as a committed BOOer, had momentary thoughts of whether or not I wanted to be associated with a campaign that has Galloway in it.
As David Herdson says, it's not about sidelining any political strand of opinion: it was about making him centre stage, and the special guest, that was the problem. Having him as just an early speaker would have probably have been ok, although even then I'm not sure.
It's like BSE making Gerry Adams or John McDonnell their special guest.0 -
An opposition MP. As, really, he should be.ThreeQuidder said:
Under PR, Farage would be an MP.Innocent_Abroad said:
One reason might be FPTP which can elect nutcases in a 4- or 5-party system quite easily.ThreeQuidder said:
That would seem sensible.asjohnstone said:
Wouldn't you be better making your choice based on the issue in front of you ?SouthamObserver said:
If Boris joins the Leave side I will vote to Remain. I would vote against a totally transparent move inspired by nothing more than a wish for personal advancement. If he doesn't join Leave I cannot see myself voting.edmundintokyo said:I don't think anything in this media cycle is very important. The renegotiation was always going to be trivial compared to the actual issue at hand. As long as there's nothing in it that actively demotivates remain supporters, everyone will have forgotten about it by the time they vote. Likewise this particular news cycle.
That said, the leave campaign clearly need to get their shit together.
Last night we had Ms Cyclefree saying that she had to vote REMAIN because if Leave wins people like Galloway might get into power in an independent UK. This, of course, follows on from Mr Meeks, who is voting REMAIN because if Leave wins people like Farage might get into power in an independent UK.
Neither of them seems to trust the British electorate not to vote for such nutcases, and I don't understand why.
0 -
It's a not uncommon view from elite Britons consumed by self-hatred of their own kind.ThreeQuidder said:
So the EU exists to save Britain from the British.Innocent_Abroad said:
No one said it did. What they said was that mavericks could do more damage if we quit the EU.Alanbrooke said:
how does being in or out ofthe EU stop maveriscks getting elected under FPTP ?Innocent_Abroad said:
One reason might be FPTP which can elect nutcases in a 4- or 5-party system quite easily.ThreeQuidder said:
That would seem sensible.asjohnstone said:
Wouldn't you be better making your choice based on the issue in front of you ?SouthamObserver said:
If Boris joins the Leave side I will vote to Remain. I would vote against a totally transparent move inspired by nothing more than a wish for personal advancement. If he doesn't join Leave I cannot see myself voting.edmundintokyo said:I don't think anything in this media cycle is very important. The renegotiation was always going to be trivial compared to the actual issue at hand. As long as there's nothing in it that actively demotivates remain supporters, everyone will have forgotten about it by the time they vote. Likewise this particular news cycle.
That said, the leave campaign clearly need to get their shit together.
Last night we had Ms Cyclefree saying that she had to vote REMAIN because if Leave wins people like Galloway might get into power in an independent UK. This, of course, follows on from Mr Meeks, who is voting REMAIN because if Leave wins people like Farage might get into power in an independent UK.
Neither of them seems to trust the British electorate not to vote for such nutcases, and I don't understand why.
Yuk.0 -
Mr. 86, so, we object, and the EU promises to have a chat?
As I suspected, and you suspect, it's a crock. It's worse than the status quo.
I think I'd like David Cameron more if he were in the barrel of the space cannon.0 -
I don't think Cyclefree said that. She did say it gave her pause for thought.ThreeQuidder said:
That would seem sensible.asjohnstone said:
Wouldn't you be better making your choice based on the issue in front of you ?SouthamObserver said:
If Boris joins the Leave side I will vote to Remain. I would vote against a totally transparent move inspired by nothing more than a wish for personal advancement. If he doesn't join Leave I cannot see myself voting.edmundintokyo said:I don't think anything in this media cycle is very important. The renegotiation was always going to be trivial compared to the actual issue at hand. As long as there's nothing in it that actively demotivates remain supporters, everyone will have forgotten about it by the time they vote. Likewise this particular news cycle.
That said, the leave campaign clearly need to get their shit together.
Last night we had Ms Cyclefree saying that she had to vote REMAIN because if Leave wins people like Galloway might get into power in an independent UK. This, of course, follows on from Mr Meeks, who is voting REMAIN because if Leave wins people like Farage might get into power in an independent UK.
Neither of them seems to trust the British electorate not to vote for such nutcases, and I don't understand why.
Which I perfectly understand.0 -
LOL ridiculousWanderer said:
Obviously Farage and Galloway won't be in government. No one supposes that.blackburn63 said:
Well this is my point, previously sensible people are losing their marbles.ThreeQuidder said:
That would seem sensible.asjohnstone said:
Wouldn't you be better making your choice based on the issue in front of you ?SouthamObserver said:
If Boris joins the Leave side I will vote to Remain. I would vote against a totally transparent move inspired by nothing more than a wish for personal advancement. If he doesn't join Leave I cannot see myself voting.edmundintokyo said:I don't think anything in this media cycle is very important. The renegotiation was always going to be trivial compared to the actual issue at hand. As long as there's nothing in it that actively demotivates remain supporters, everyone will have forgotten about it by the time they vote. Likewise this particular news cycle.
That said, the leave campaign clearly need to get their shit together.
Last night we had Ms Cyclefree saying that she had to vote REMAIN because if Leave wins people like Galloway might get into power in an independent UK. This, of course, follows on from Mr Meeks, who is voting REMAIN because if Leave wins people like Farage might get into power in an independent UK.
Neither of them seems to trust the British electorate not to vote for such nutcases, and I don't understand why.
Look, if we vote to Leave it means we are free from EU restrictions and regulations, our councillors, MPs and Lords won't change. It doesn't mean Cameron is taken to the Tower and Farage becomes PM with Galloway as Chancellor.
What is extremely likely, following a Leave win, is that Cameron resigns and that the Tory Eurosceptic right gains control of the Government. For me, that would be deeply unwelcome. It's far from the only reason I will be voting Remain but it's one of them.
That the EU is of transcendent importance is something Leave needs to persuade people of. It's not self-evident.
you might as well conjecture that if we stay in Blair regains control and goes around invading places.
0 -
IDS and Gove could be considered 'Establishment'.Alanbrooke said:
Establishment versus the rest.logical_song said:Farage, Galloway, John Redwood, IDS, Gove, Bill Cash
versus
Cameron, Hilary Benn, George Osborne, Chuka Umunna, Tim Farron, Alan Johnson
Wonder who will win.
Depends how much the mood is kick the establishment.
No the Leavers are just a little shall we say 'eccentric'.0 -
No, it might still be very important (I think it is).Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Wanderer, if the EU isn't of transcendent importance, there's no danger from leaving it
By "transcendent importance" I mean the view, which some Leavers seem to hold, that it would be worth paying any price to leave the EU.0 -
On the other hand, Roger has called a Remain landslide.
So it's not all bad news.0 -
Maybe you should chill out.Casino_Royale said:
I'm still spitting blood about this.Alanbrooke said:
Are you saying people on the hard left shouldnt have an opinion ?Blue_rog said:I cannot believe how stupid the GO campaign has been. I was shocked and disgusted to see Galloway appear on stage, and even as a committed BOOer, had momentary thoughts of whether or not I wanted to be associated with a campaign that has Galloway in it.
As David Herdson says, it's not about sidelining any political strand of opinion: it was about making him centre stage, and the special guest, that was the problem. Having him as just an early speaker would have probably have been ok, although even then I'm not sure.
It's like BSE making Gerry Adams or John McDonnell their special guest.
Martin McGuinness or Gerry Adams wouldnt worry me in the slightest.
If LEAVE is going to take on the establishment it will have some strange bedfellows.0 -
What are your predictions for domestic politics in the event of Leave?Alanbrooke said:
LOL ridiculousWanderer said:
Obviously Farage and Galloway won't be in government. No one supposes that.blackburn63 said:
Well this is my point, previously sensible people are losing their marbles.ThreeQuidder said:
That would seem sensible.asjohnstone said:
Wouldn't you be better making your choice based on the issue in front of you ?SouthamObserver said:
If Boris joins the Leave side I will vote to Remain. I would vote against a totally transparent move inspired by nothing more than a wish for personal advancement. If he doesn't join Leave I cannot see myself voting.edmundintokyo said:I don't think anything in this media cycle is very important. The renegotiation was always going to be trivial compared to the actual issue at hand. As long as there's nothing in it that actively demotivates remain supporters, everyone will have forgotten about it by the time they vote. Likewise this particular news cycle.
That said, the leave campaign clearly need to get their shit together.
Last night we had Ms Cyclefree saying that she had to vote REMAIN because if Leave wins people like Galloway might get into power in an independent UK. This, of course, follows on from Mr Meeks, who is voting REMAIN because if Leave wins people like Farage might get into power in an independent UK.
Neither of them seems to trust the British electorate not to vote for such nutcases, and I don't understand why.
Look, if we vote to Leave it means we are free from EU restrictions and regulations, our councillors, MPs and Lords won't change. It doesn't mean Cameron is taken to the Tower and Farage becomes PM with Galloway as Chancellor.
What is extremely likely, following a Leave win, is that Cameron resigns and that the Tory Eurosceptic right gains control of the Government. For me, that would be deeply unwelcome. It's far from the only reason I will be voting Remain but it's one of them.
That the EU is of transcendent importance is something Leave needs to persuade people of. It's not self-evident.
you might as well conjecture that if we stay in Blair regains control and goes around invading places.0 -
Mr. Wanderer, but we're not being asked to pay any price, and we'd get something of great value (self-determination) into the bargain.
Mr. Song, many would agree with your eccentric point. That said, the eccentrics won the last European vote...0 -
He might have negotiated harder in the barrel of the space cannon....Morris_Dancer said:Mr. 86, so, we object, and the EU promises to have a chat?
As I suspected, and you suspect, it's a crock. It's worse than the status quo.
I think I'd like David Cameron more if he were in the barrel of the space cannon.
Waiting for the detail, but from what I've seen so far the wording looks to have more fudge than Mrs Sweet-tooth's Fudge Shop. Cameron is going to be skewered when people ask him "if we can't agree - what happens then?"0 -
Farage has to be a sleeper agent for the EU. Has to be.
When Leave looked like it might be gaining ground, he sabotages it.
0 -
What you mean is they don't share your values.logical_song said:
IDS and Gove could be considered 'Establishment'.Alanbrooke said:
Establishment versus the rest.logical_song said:Farage, Galloway, John Redwood, IDS, Gove, Bill Cash
versus
Cameron, Hilary Benn, George Osborne, Chuka Umunna, Tim Farron, Alan Johnson
Wonder who will win.
Depends how much the mood is kick the establishment.
No the Leavers are just a little shall we say 'eccentric'.
Both sides have shall we say "eccentrics" - Remain has Blair, Izzard, Rolf Harris0 -
Cameron could make Gove.. Minister for Europe..0
-
Business as usualWanderer said:
What are your predictions for domestic politics in the event of Leave?Alanbrooke said:
LOL ridiculousWanderer said:
Obviously Farage and Galloway won't be in government. No one supposes that.blackburn63 said:
Well this is my point, previously sensible people are losing their marbles.ThreeQuidder said:
That would seem sensible.asjohnstone said:
Wouldn't you be better making your choice based on the issue in front of you ?SouthamObserver said:
If Boris joins the Leave side I will vote to Remain. I would vote against a totally transparent move inspired by nothing more than a wish for personal advancement. If he doesn't join Leave I cannot see myself voting.edmundintokyo said:I don't think anything in this media cycle is very important. The renegotiation was always going to be trivial compared to the actual issue at hand. As long as there's nothing in it that actively demotivates remain supporters, everyone will have forgotten about it by the time they vote. Likewise this particular news cycle.
That said, the leave campaign clearly need to get their shit together.
Last night we had Ms Cyclefree saying that she had to vote REMAIN because if Leave wins people like Galloway might get into power in an independent UK. This, of course, follows on from Mr Meeks, who is voting REMAIN because if Leave wins people like Farage might get into power in an independent UK.
Neither of them seems to trust the British electorate not to vote for such nutcases, and I don't understand why.
Look, if we vote to Leave it means we are free from EU restrictions and regulations, our councillors, MPs and Lords won't change. It doesn't mean Cameron is taken to the Tower and Farage becomes PM with Galloway as Chancellor.
What is extremely likely, following a Leave win, is that Cameron resigns and that the Tory Eurosceptic right gains control of the Government. For me, that would be deeply unwelcome. It's far from the only reason I will be voting Remain but it's one of them.
That the EU is of transcendent importance is something Leave needs to persuade people of. It's not self-evident.
you might as well conjecture that if we stay in Blair regains control and goes around invading places.
Tories suck up to big business
Labour sucks up to middle class "progressives"
Nats fume but cant quite bring themselves to leave
Great British public goes back to thinking they're all mad and watching Coronation Street0 -
No, he'd be in government as part of a Con-UKIP coalition.Innocent_Abroad said:
An opposition MP. As, really, he should be.ThreeQuidder said:
Under PR, Farage would be an MP.Innocent_Abroad said:
One reason might be FPTP which can elect nutcases in a 4- or 5-party system quite easily.ThreeQuidder said:
That would seem sensible.asjohnstone said:
Wouldn't you be better making your choice based on the issue in front of you ?SouthamObserver said:
If Boris joins the Leave side I will vote to Remain. I would vote against a totally transparent move inspired by nothing more than a wish for personal advancement. If he doesn't join Leave I cannot see myself voting.edmundintokyo said:I don't think anything in this media cycle is very important. The renegotiation was always going to be trivial compared to the actual issue at hand. As long as there's nothing in it that actively demotivates remain supporters, everyone will have forgotten about it by the time they vote. Likewise this particular news cycle.
That said, the leave campaign clearly need to get their shit together.
Last night we had Ms Cyclefree saying that she had to vote REMAIN because if Leave wins people like Galloway might get into power in an independent UK. This, of course, follows on from Mr Meeks, who is voting REMAIN because if Leave wins people like Farage might get into power in an independent UK.
Neither of them seems to trust the British electorate not to vote for such nutcases, and I don't understand why.
0 -
The deal was far more important than the rally.
If you look at the rally line-up sans George Galloway, it was scarcely more alluring than with George Galloway. Making him the special guest merely confirmed what we already knew, that Leave is led by palookas. That should have all been priced in.
Michael Gove is a good scalp for Leave and they might profitably use his organisational skills.
Now the attention turns to Boris Johnson. Could he make his mind up quickly, I have a thread header to complete?0 -
George Galloway and Damian McBride
Is Cameron the luckiest PM in history?0 -
We may well get the chance to find out. Let's see.Alanbrooke said:
Business as usualWanderer said:
What are your predictions for domestic politics in the event of Leave?Alanbrooke said:
LOL ridiculousWanderer said:
Obviously Farage and Galloway won't be in government. No one supposes that.blackburn63 said:
Well this is my point, previously sensible people are losing their marbles.ThreeQuidder said:
That would seem sensible.asjohnstone said:
Wouldn't you be better making your choice based on the issue in front of you ?SouthamObserver said:
If Boris joins the Leave side I will vote to Remain. I would vote against a totally transparent move inspired by nothing more than a wish for personal advancement. If he doesn't join Leave I cannot see myself voting.edmundintokyo said:I don't think anything in this media cycle is very important. The renegotiation was always going to be trivial compared to the actual issue at hand. As long as there's nothing in it that actively demotivates remain supporters, everyone will have forgotten about it by the time they vote. Likewise this particular news cycle.
That said, the leave campaign clearly need to get their shit together.
Last night we had Ms Cyclefree saying that she had to vote REMAIN because if Leave wins people like Galloway might get into power in an independent UK. This, of course, follows on from Mr Meeks, who is voting REMAIN because if Leave wins people like Farage might get into power in an independent UK.
Neither of them seems to trust the British electorate not to vote for such nutcases, and I don't understand why.
Look, if we vote to Leave it means we are free from EU restrictions and regulations, our councillors, MPs and Lords won't change. It doesn't mean Cameron is taken to the Tower and Farage becomes PM with Galloway as Chancellor.
What is extremely likely, following a Leave win, is that Cameron resigns and that the Tory Eurosceptic right gains control of the Government. For me, that would be deeply unwelcome. It's far from the only reason I will be voting Remain but it's one of them.
That the EU is of transcendent importance is something Leave needs to persuade people of. It's not self-evident.
you might as well conjecture that if we stay in Blair regains control and goes around invading places.
Tories suck up to big business
Labour sucks up to middle class "progressives"
Nats fume but cant quite bring themselves to leave
Great British public goes back to thinking they're all mad and watching Coronation Street0 -
LOLAlastairMeeks said:The deal was far more important than the rally.
If you look at the rally line-up sans George Galloway, it was scarcely more alluring than with George Galloway. Making him the special guest merely confirmed what we already knew, that Leave is led by palookas. That should have all been priced in.
Michael Gove is a good scalp for Leave and they might profitably use his organisational skills.
Now the attention turns to Boris Johnson. Could he make his mind up quickly, I have a thread header to complete?
do you honestly think anyone outside PB gives a shit about a who's at a rally ?
It's pantomime villain time you might as well write that Baron Hardup favours remain.0 -
That says that if the European Council QMVs a decision (e.g. the eurozone voting as a bloc) then one non-eurozone (non banking union) country can ask the European Council, very politely, if it wouldn't please mind thinking again if it can justify its objection and, if it agrees, the European Council will talk about it. If there is time, it will think about a solution.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. 86, so, we object, and the EU promises to have a chat?
As I suspected, and you suspect, it's a crock. It's worse than the status quo.
I think I'd like David Cameron more if he were in the barrel of the space cannon.
That's it.
It is not an "emergency break" of any kind.
There should be a fine system for every time that phrase is used.0 -
We are furiously agreeing.Alanbrooke said:
LOLAlastairMeeks said:The deal was far more important than the rally.
If you look at the rally line-up sans George Galloway, it was scarcely more alluring than with George Galloway. Making him the special guest merely confirmed what we already knew, that Leave is led by palookas. That should have all been priced in.
Michael Gove is a good scalp for Leave and they might profitably use his organisational skills.
Now the attention turns to Boris Johnson. Could he make his mind up quickly, I have a thread header to complete?
do you honestly think anyone outside PB gives a shit about a who's at a rally ?
It's pantomime villain time you might as well write that Baron Hardup favours remain.0
