politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Tonight’s local by-election line-up: 3 CON defences and a L
Comments
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I know a senior partner of a Brum law firm who used to charge a days fees when he travelled across the international date line... a route which he deliberately used to engineer.Sean_F said:
Martyn Day charged £900 an hour in the Trafigura case, and sought a 100% uplift as a success fee. The Court of Appeal told him he was taking the piss.TheScreamingEagles said:Shocking story on the front page of the Indy. £110 for a one word email, is that all? I know someone who billed two hours worth of time for a one word email.
https://twitter.com/suttonnick/status/6953609011179069450 -
The discussion on Newsnight shows just what the hysteria is thats driving the SNP. It's their unilateral anti nuclear (and ultimately pacifist) loony left military position. The dipsticks clearly see the SNP as a vehicle to pursue their desire to undermine the Western Alliance.0
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Wikipedia agrees with you: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harry_HarphamTheScreamingEagles said:I've heard an unconfirmed rumour that the Labour MP for Sheffield Brightside has died
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and then the Russians launched their ICBMs. Millions would die - and the Brits said why add to that figure.RobD said:
Sounds like a proportional response.slade said:
There was escalation. Nato responded to a Russian 'aid' convoy to ethnic Russians in Latvia by sending in a task force to take them out; the Russians responded by launching a tactical nuclear weapon at HMS Ocean in the Baltic, and then the USA retaliate with a tactical attack against a Russian target. You see the picture?RobD said:
Who do they launch their ICBMs at? If it is at us, surely the sub commanders rely on the PMs letter, not the decision of any committee.slade said:O/T: I have just been watching World War Three on iplayer. No, not the real thing but a drama/documentary about a hypothetical. The thesis is that Russia is interfering in the Baltic states along the lines of Georgia, Crimea and Ukraine. Various real people ( Cristopher Mayer, Lord West, Lord Arbuthnot, etc. play roles as members of the committee which makes the decisions aboiut British response. To cut to the chase - Russia launches its ICBMs and Britain decides to do nothing - because deterrence has failed. Says everything really.
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Once upon a time the Lib Dems would have been getting all excited now0
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Very sad news, just a few months after being elected for the first time.0
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Harry Harpham, MP for Sheffield Brightside, has died tonight. Cancer0
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Tory vote was only 4k. Not a lot to squeeze.Tissue_Price said:
Confirmed: https://m.facebook.com/Harry4brighthills/posts/1699163240299772TheScreamingEagles said:I've heard an unconfirmed rumour that the Labour MP for Sheffield Brightside has died
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UKIP could win Sheffield Brightside and Hillsborough.
Everyone can't stand the fecking Roma, including the third generation Muslims.0 -
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His Wikipedia entry is already saying he (Harry Harpham) has died. That is fast (and I would suggest rather heartless) going by someone!TheScreamingEagles said:I've heard an unconfirmed rumour that the Labour MP for Sheffield Brightside has died
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Interesting result in Measham:
Britain Elects @britainelects
Measham South (NW Leicestershire) result:
LAB: 42.8% (-12.3)
CON: 33.7% (-11.2)
UKIP: 23.5% (+23.5)0 -
And VI:
YouGov/Times:
CON 39 (=)
LAB 29 (-1)
LIB 6 (=)
UKIP 18 (+1)
GRN 3 (=)
SNP 4 (=)
Dates 3rd-4th Feb0 -
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They could. They won't.TheScreamingEagles said:UKIP could win Sheffield Brightside and Hillsborough.
Everyone can't stand the fecking Roma, including the third generation Muslims.0 -
Will this be Cameron's chance?
"I'm sorry Donald. This was a great deal but I can't risk putting it to the country after Sheffield has just sent a signal by returning a UKIP MP. We'll need more..."0 -
@britainelects: Westminster voting intention:
CON: 39% (-)
LAB: 29% (-1)
UKIP: 18% (+1)
LDEM: 6% (-)
GRN: 3% (-)
(via YouGov / 03 - 04 Feb)0 -
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lol, the Express is awesomeTheScreamingEagles said:Voodoo fucking poll alert
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Did you hear about the psephologist from Warsaw who moved to Haiti?TheScreamingEagles said:Voodoo fucking poll alert
twitter.com/suttonnick/status/695382641424539648
He became a Voodoo Pole
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What the fuck does Bradford's ethnic makeup have to do with the EU.
Sweet Jesus.0 -
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How many Roma are there in the seat?TheScreamingEagles said:UKIP could win Sheffield Brightside and Hillsborough.
Everyone can't stand the fecking Roma, including the third generation Muslims.0 -
Today I learned
Tax and spend cuts are evil when the SNP does them but right when George Osborne does them
The EU did nothing for peace in Europe but without Trident the continent will be rent asunder by war and Scottish pacifists
I guess they hate you more when you are winning rather than when you are Corbyn, I mean losing0 -
Broken, sleazy Labour on the slide?Tissue_Price said:And VI:
YouGov/Times:
CON 39 (=)
LAB 29 (-1)
LIB 6 (=)
UKIP 18 (+1)
GRN 3 (=)
SNP 4 (=)
Dates 3rd-4th Feb0 -
Splits on the referendum (excl. WNV/DK)
Con 38-62
Lab 70-30
LD 71-29
UKIP 2-98
Others 75-25
Tories have the most DK at 22%
https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/document/4mzy46afe7/TimesResults_160204_EUReferendumDay1.pdf0 -
I am waiting for the "Diana Would have Voted Leave - Psychic Pshock" headline. :-)Wanderer said:0 -
@SandyRentool
'BoJo is calling for two fecking great road tunnels under London. "Tens of billions £££". So the rest of the country is expected to sub London yet again.'
And the rest of the country is subed year in year out by taxes generated in London.
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I'm disappointed by the program. And I'm not the only one. Deterrence only works if the other side believes we will act destructively if attacked. It's not illegitimate to kill those who have killed you.slade said:
and then the Russians launched their ICBMs. Millions would die - and the Brits said why add to that figure.RobD said:
Sounds like a proportional response.slade said:
There was escalation. Nato responded to a Russian 'aid' convoy to ethnic Russians in Latvia by sending in a task force to take them out; the Russians responded by launching a tactical nuclear weapon at HMS Ocean in the Baltic, and then the USA retaliate with a tactical attack against a Russian target. You see the picture?RobD said:
Who do they launch their ICBMs at? If it is at us, surely the sub commanders rely on the PMs letter, not the decision of any committee.slade said:O/T: I have just been watching World War Three on iplayer. No, not the real thing but a drama/documentary about a hypothetical. The thesis is that Russia is interfering in the Baltic states along the lines of Georgia, Crimea and Ukraine. Various real people ( Cristopher Mayer, Lord West, Lord Arbuthnot, etc. play roles as members of the committee which makes the decisions aboiut British response. To cut to the chase - Russia launches its ICBMs and Britain decides to do nothing - because deterrence has failed. Says everything really.
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I've written a Lord of The Rings thread for PB for a few weekends hence.viewcode said:
Corbyn as Sauron. John McDonell as Saruman, Seamus Milne as Wormtongue
I'm really proud of a Battle of Pelennor Fields analogy I've come up with0 -
So would Lord Lucan, Shergar is uncertain at the momentRichard_Tyndall said:
I am waiting for the "Diana Would have Voted Leave - Psychic Pshock" headline. :-)Wanderer said:
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Historically, I think it might.williamglenn said:Will this be Cameron's chance?
"I'm sorry Donald. This was a great deal but I can't risk putting it to the country after Sheffield has just sent a signal by returning a UKIP MP. We'll need more..."
But I think the Eurozone countries, in general, are beginning to realise that the split between the Eurozone and the non-EZ countries just isn't going to work. Five years from now, I think it is entirely possible that the EU will consist solely of the Eurozone and soon to be Eurozone countries.
Simply: it should have been realised before that the divergence of interests between those signed up to "Ever Closer Union" and the rest was going to cause problems.
The Eurozone crisis, and the necessary structural changes they need, have changed the playing field. We should use this opportunity to leave the party; not in malice, not with the hope we precipitate a collapse, but simply because the Eurozone, non-Eurozone split doesn't work.
It's time that us and Sweden, and maybe a few others, detatched ourselves. We should do this by making EFTA/EEA great again. We should benefit from access to the single market, and be a supportive friend, but us and them need to realise we are not on the same path.
Time to go.0 -
Why should the government have to pay to help people speak English? If you were born here you should surely be able to pick it up, & if you weren't born here you should have learnt it before you came0
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Things that stand out from that poll.
Only 34% of Conservatives think the PM achieved a good deal. 23% of Conservatives expected the PM to achieve a good deal, but think he did worse than they expected. Conservatives support Leave by 48/30%, albeit I'd expect most don't knows to favour Remain.
UKIP are on 18%, 21% with men, and 22% with voters over 40.0 -
@Perdix
The point about social protection is that the legislation is from the EU, not from Westminster. We could have passed those laws but did not. Leave puts them under threat.
Well within my lifetime Spain, Portugal, Greece, Bulgaria, Romania, Hungary, Croatia, Slovenia, the Czech republic, Slovakia, Poland, Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia were all dictatorships and many very poorly governed. EU membership was a major driver for each of these to develop democratic and economically modern economies. We should be proud of our part in bringing these countries out of their darkness and backwardness. There is clearly much remaining to be done, and Britons should not shirk from completing the job. Britain is best served by a democratic and economically open Europe, which is one reason that staying in the EU is in our own interests.0 -
I think even an even(ish) split is bad for Remain at this point. The last couple of days have been Remain's moment, it's unveiling of the goods. If it's not ahead now it's, hmm, tricky.TheScreamingEagles said:twitter.com/TSEofPB/status/695384763335446528
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Mr star,I gave up watching that leftwing propaganda show a couple of years ago'I advise you do the same ;-)Pulpstar said:What the fuck does Bradford's ethnic makeup have to do with the EU.
Sweet Jesus.
You will feel alot better for it ;-)0 -
I met him last Summer, though it could have been his Madame Tussaud dummy, the two Thai hookers looked real enough though.williamglenn said:0 -
Ummm... if you changed the word "speak" to "read", you'd be advocating an extraordinary change to the UK education system.isam said:Why should the government have to pay to help people speak English? If you were born here you should surely be able to pick it up, & if you weren't born here you should have learnt it before you came
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Were you with SeanT?nigel4england said:
I met him last Summer, though it could have been his Madame Tussaud dummy, the two Thai hookers looked real enough though.williamglenn said:0 -
Ukip on the rise again ?Tissue_Price said:Interesting result in Measham:
Britain Elects @britainelects
Measham South (NW Leicestershire) result:
LAB: 42.8% (-12.3)
CON: 33.7% (-11.2)
UKIP: 23.5% (+23.5)0 -
All but three of those were former Iron Curtain countries and the EU had sweet FA to do with freeing them from that yoke.foxinsoxuk said:@Perdix
The point about social protection is that the legislation is from the EU, not from Westminster. We could have passed those laws but did not. Leave puts them under threat.
Well within my lifetime Spain, Portugal, Greece, Bulgaria, Romania, Hungary, Croatia, Slovenia, the Czech republic, Slovakia, Poland, Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia were all dictatorships and many very poorly governed. EU membership was a major driver for each of these to develop democratic and economically modern economies. We should be proud of our part in bringing these countries out of their darkness and backwardness. There is clearly much remaining to be done, and Britons should not shirk from completing the job. Britain is best served by a democratic and economically open Europe, which is one reason that staying in the EU is in our own interests.
Are you claiming that the newly liberated eastern bloc countries were so poorly led they were incapable of becoming functioning democracies without the EU?0 -
I would be up for the Government paying if it were also made compulsory to learn. The Danes used to do something like that, maybe still do.isam said:Why should the government have to pay to help people speak English? If you were born here you should surely be able to pick it up, & if you weren't born here you should have learnt it before you came
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I'm quite content that social protection laws affecting this country are determined by our own Parliament..foxinsoxuk said:@Perdix
The point about social protection is that the legislation is from the EU, not from Westminster. We could have passed those laws but did not. Leave puts them under threat.
Well within my lifetime Spain, Portugal, Greece, Bulgaria, Romania, Hungary, Croatia, Slovenia, the Czech republic, Slovakia, Poland, Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia were all dictatorships and many very poorly governed. EU membership was a major driver for each of these to develop democratic and economically modern economies. We should be proud of our part in bringing these countries out of their darkness and backwardness. There is clearly much remaining to be done, and Britons should not shirk from completing the job. Britain is best served by a democratic and economically open Europe, which is one reason that staying in the EU is in our own interests.
On balance, I view the EU as a force for bad, not good, governance.0 -
Haha, no but it wasn't far from where he lives!rcs1000 said:
Were you with SeanT?nigel4england said:
I met him last Summer, though it could have been his Madame Tussaud dummy, the two Thai hookers looked real enough though.williamglenn said:0 -
Come on, I have to raise the expectations unrealistically for UKIP so I can mock them when they fail to reach themRichard_Tyndall said:
They could. They won't.TheScreamingEagles said:UKIP could win Sheffield Brightside and Hillsborough.
Everyone can't stand the fecking Roma, including the third generation Muslims. 0 -
The reason Cameron 'picked on' Muslims inability to speak English and not integrating is surely because they are the ones going to MENA and plotting to kill us all? If it were Sikhs he would have said Sikhs, if it were poles he'd have said poles0
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Remain will not be running on Cam's pieces of paper but on fear of losing big employers from the South East and some urban centres elsewhereWanderer said:
I think even an even(ish) split is bad for Remain at this point. The last couple of days have been Remain's moment, it's unveiling of the goods. If it's not ahead now it's, hmm, tricky.TheScreamingEagles said:twitter.com/TSEofPB/status/695384763335446528
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I'm going to put my @Socrates hat on here: those ex Communist countries that joined the EU and looked West have done a lot better than those who stuck with Russia. Doesn't mean it couldn't have happened with some kind of EFTA/EEA, but it's hard to claim that EU membership has been a disaster for the Baltics (for example).Richard_Tyndall said:
All but three of those were former Iron Curtain countries and the EU had sweet FA to do with freeing them from that yoke.foxinsoxuk said:@Perdix
The point about social protection is that the legislation is from the EU, not from Westminster. We could have passed those laws but did not. Leave puts them under threat.
Well within my lifetime Spain, Portugal, Greece, Bulgaria, Romania, Hungary, Croatia, Slovenia, the Czech republic, Slovakia, Poland, Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia were all dictatorships and many very poorly governed. EU membership was a major driver for each of these to develop democratic and economically modern economies. We should be proud of our part in bringing these countries out of their darkness and backwardness. There is clearly much remaining to be done, and Britons should not shirk from completing the job. Britain is best served by a democratic and economically open Europe, which is one reason that staying in the EU is in our own interests.
Are you claiming that the newly liberated eastern bloc countries were so poorly led they were incapable of becoming functioning democracies without the EU?0 -
Oh dear, you know that's going to upset you know who.rcs1000 said:
I'm going to put my @Socrates hat on here: those ex Communist countries that joined the EU and looked West have done a lot better than those who stuck with Russia. Doesn't mean it couldn't have happened with some kind of EFTA/EEA, but it's hard to claim that EU membership has been a disaster for the Baltics (for example).Richard_Tyndall said:
All but three of those were former Iron Curtain countries and the EU had sweet FA to do with freeing them from that yoke.foxinsoxuk said:@Perdix
The point about social protection is that the legislation is from the EU, not from Westminster. We could have passed those laws but did not. Leave puts them under threat.
Well within my lifetime Spain, Portugal, Greece, Bulgaria, Romania, Hungary, Croatia, Slovenia, the Czech republic, Slovakia, Poland, Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia were all dictatorships and many very poorly governed. EU membership was a major driver for each of these to develop democratic and economically modern economies. We should be proud of our part in bringing these countries out of their darkness and backwardness. There is clearly much remaining to be done, and Britons should not shirk from completing the job. Britain is best served by a democratic and economically open Europe, which is one reason that staying in the EU is in our own interests.
Are you claiming that the newly liberated eastern bloc countries were so poorly led they were incapable of becoming functioning democracies without the EU?0 -
Pelennor Fields is a defeat for Mordor forces. Who do you see beating Corbyn/Sauron?TheScreamingEagles said:
I've written a Lord of The Rings thread for PB for a few weekends hence.viewcode said:
Corbyn as Sauron. John McDonell as Saruman, Seamus Milne as Wormtongue
I'm really proud of a Battle of Pelennor Fields analogy I've come up with0 -
Don't be silly: Lovinputin1983 has gone to bedTheScreamingEagles said:
Oh dear, you know that's going to upset you know who.rcs1000 said:
I'm going to put my @Socrates hat on here: those ex Communist countries that joined the EU and looked West have done a lot better than those who stuck with Russia. Doesn't mean it couldn't have happened with some kind of EFTA/EEA, but it's hard to claim that EU membership has been a disaster for the Baltics (for example).Richard_Tyndall said:
All but three of those were former Iron Curtain countries and the EU had sweet FA to do with freeing them from that yoke.foxinsoxuk said:@Perdix
The point about social protection is that the legislation is from the EU, not from Westminster. We could have passed those laws but did not. Leave puts them under threat.
Well within my lifetime Spain, Portugal, Greece, Bulgaria, Romania, Hungary, Croatia, Slovenia, the Czech republic, Slovakia, Poland, Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia were all dictatorships and many very poorly governed. EU membership was a major driver for each of these to develop democratic and economically modern economies. We should be proud of our part in bringing these countries out of their darkness and backwardness. There is clearly much remaining to be done, and Britons should not shirk from completing the job. Britain is best served by a democratic and economically open Europe, which is one reason that staying in the EU is in our own interests.
Are you claiming that the newly liberated eastern bloc countries were so poorly led they were incapable of becoming functioning democracies without the EU?0 -
A stupid strategy given that it is so easy to point out how many big employers claimed they would leave the UK if we didn't join the Euro. Of course they didn't and that sort of crying wolf is very easy to highlight.EPG said:
Remain will not be running on Cam's pieces of paper but on fear of losing big employers from the South East and some urban centres elsewhereWanderer said:
I think even an even(ish) split is bad for Remain at this point. The last couple of days have been Remain's moment, it's unveiling of the goods. If it's not ahead now it's, hmm, tricky.TheScreamingEagles said:twitter.com/TSEofPB/status/695384763335446528
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Whites are the ones who bomb and kill Muslims?isam said:The reason Cameron 'picked on' Muslims inability to speak English and not integrating is surely because they are the ones going to MENA and plotting to kill us all? If it were Sikhs he would have said Sikhs, if it were poles he'd have said poles
Men are the ones abusing women?
This is dodgy rhetoric worthy of the PM0 -
But so far business isn't playing the game is it? We have had for example several major foreign investors already saying they will stay in the UK regardless of the outcome of the referendum.
This scare story was tried when Blair wanted to get us into the euro, and it didn't work then even though a few investors did try to help it along.
Businesses today I think are very wary of getting overtly involved in a divisive political issue of this kind. And EU membership is just not the key issue for most of them that the Remain supporters think.0 -
I have not claimed it was a disaster. I have just said that Dr Fox's claims that it was the EU that turned them from dictatorships into well functioning democracies is utter bollocks.rcs1000 said:
I'm going to put my @Socrates hat on here: those ex Communist countries that joined the EU and looked West have done a lot better than those who stuck with Russia. Doesn't mean it couldn't have happened with some kind of EFTA/EEA, but it's hard to claim that EU membership has been a disaster for the Baltics (for example).Richard_Tyndall said:
All but three of those were former Iron Curtain countries and the EU had sweet FA to do with freeing them from that yoke.foxinsoxuk said:@Perdix
The point about social protection is that the legislation is from the EU, not from Westminster. We could have passed those laws but did not. Leave puts them under threat.
Well within my lifetime Spain, Portugal, Greece, Bulgaria, Romania, Hungary, Croatia, Slovenia, the Czech republic, Slovakia, Poland, Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia were all dictatorships and many very poorly governed. EU membership was a major driver for each of these to develop democratic and economically modern economies. We should be proud of our part in bringing these countries out of their darkness and backwardness. There is clearly much remaining to be done, and Britons should not shirk from completing the job. Britain is best served by a democratic and economically open Europe, which is one reason that staying in the EU is in our own interests.
Are you claiming that the newly liberated eastern bloc countries were so poorly led they were incapable of becoming functioning democracies without the EU?0 -
That's putting it too strongly, but I think the existence of the EU and the acquis communautaire were a helpful influence.Richard_Tyndall said:
Are you claiming that the newly liberated eastern bloc countries were so poorly led they were incapable of becoming functioning democracies without the EU?
The question I would ask is, without the EU, would those countries be more or less likely still to be democracies in, say, 2050?0 -
An EU application requires all sorts of democratic, human rights, and economic progress. It is a major carrot for these countries.rcs1000 said:
I'm going to put my @Socrates hat on here: those ex Communist countries that joined the EU and looked West have done a lot better than those who stuck with Russia. Doesn't mean it couldn't have happened with some kind of EFTA/EEA, but it's hard to claim that EU membership has been a disaster for the Baltics (for example).Richard_Tyndall said:
All but three of those were former Iron Curtain countries and the EU had sweet FA to do with freeing them from that yoke.foxinsoxuk said:@Perdix
The point about social protection is that the legislation is from the EU, not from Westminster. We could have passed those laws but did not. Leave puts them under threat.
Well within my lifetime Spain, Portugal, Greece, Bulgaria, Romania, Hungary, Croatia, Slovenia, the Czech republic, Slovakia, Poland, Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia were all dictatorships and many very poorly governed. EU membership was a major driver for each of these to develop democratic and economically modern economies. We should be proud of our part in bringing these countries out of their darkness and backwardness. There is clearly much remaining to be done, and Britons should not shirk from completing the job. Britain is best served by a democratic and economically open Europe, which is one reason that staying in the EU is in our own interests.
Are you claiming that the newly liberated eastern bloc countries were so poorly led they were incapable of becoming functioning democracies without the EU?
Imperfect they may be, but these are much better places for the existence of the EU.
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Business is happy - in general - with EEA/EFTA. But would be more concerned with a looser arrangement.runnymede said:But so far business isn't playing the game is it? We have had for example several major foreign investors already saying they will stay in the UK regardless of the outcome of the referendum.
This scare story was tried when Blair wanted to get us into the euro, and it didn't work then even though a few investors did try to help it along.
Businesses today I think are very wary of getting overtly involved in a divisive political issue of this kind. And EU membership is just not the key issue for most of them that the Remain supporters think.0 -
They got 30.5% when they last contested the equivalent seat in the 2013 CC elections and came 2nd to LabourTykejohnno said:
Ukip on the rise again ?Tissue_Price said:Interesting result in Measham:
Britain Elects @britainelects
Measham South (NW Leicestershire) result:
LAB: 42.8% (-12.3)
CON: 33.7% (-11.2)
UKIP: 23.5% (+23.5)0 -
Dan Jarvis.viewcode said:
Pelennor Fields is a defeat for Mordor forces. Who do you see beating Corbyn/Sauron?TheScreamingEagles said:
I've written a Lord of The Rings thread for PB for a few weekends hence.viewcode said:
Corbyn as Sauron. John McDonell as Saruman, Seamus Milne as Wormtongue
I'm really proud of a Battle of Pelennor Fields analogy I've come up with
Labour are getting buggered senseless over the 'Threat to National Security' meme.
Major Dan Jarvis will help neutralise that attack.
Plus history does repeat itself, Labour used to be led by a pacifist, then he was toppled by an Army major who led Labour to a landslide victory and ushered in so much change for the country.0 -
One wonders how Norway and Iceland have managed to avoid becoming democratic basket cases without being under the benevolent control of the EU.Wanderer said:
That's putting it too strongly, but I think the existence of the EU and the acquis communautaire were a helpful influence.Richard_Tyndall said:
Are you claiming that the newly liberated eastern bloc countries were so poorly led they were incapable of becoming functioning democracies without the EU?
The question I would ask is, without the EU, would those countries be more or less likely still to be democracies in, say, 2050?0 -
Say 'UKIP doing well' after 11pm and 'piffpaffpoof' : A senior moment0
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All they have is scaremongering, I find it staggering they accuse the Out campaign of that when there is not one single cohesive argument for staying in.Richard_Tyndall said:
A stupid strategy given that it is so easy to point out how many big employers claimed they would leave the UK if we didn't join the Euro. Of course they didn't and that sort of crying wolf is very easy to highlight.EPG said:
Remain will not be running on Cam's pieces of paper but on fear of losing big employers from the South East and some urban centres elsewhereWanderer said:
I think even an even(ish) split is bad for Remain at this point. The last couple of days have been Remain's moment, it's unveiling of the goods. If it's not ahead now it's, hmm, tricky.TheScreamingEagles said:twitter.com/TSEofPB/status/695384763335446528
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I was in Latvia about 18 months ago, just a few weeks before they joined the Euro, and I asked my taxi driver:Richard_Tyndall said:
I have not claimed it was a disaster. I have just said that Dr Fox's claims that it was the EU that turned them from dictatorships into well functioning democracies is utter bollocks.rcs1000 said:
I'm going to put my @Socrates hat on here: those ex Communist countries that joined the EU and looked West have done a lot better than those who stuck with Russia. Doesn't mean it couldn't have happened with some kind of EFTA/EEA, but it's hard to claim that EU membership has been a disaster for the Baltics (for example).Richard_Tyndall said:
All but three of those were former Iron Curtain countries and the EU had sweet FA to do with freeing them from that yoke.foxinsoxuk said:@Perdix
The point about social protection is that the legislation is from the EU, not from Westminster. We could have passed those laws but did not. Leave puts them under threat.
Well within my lifetime Spain, Portugal, Greece, Bulgaria, Romania, Hungary, Croatia, Slovenia, the Czech republic, Slovakia, Poland, Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia were all dictatorships and many very poorly governed. EU membership was a major driver for each of these to develop democratic and economically modern economies. We should be proud of our part in bringing these countries out of their darkness and backwardness. There is clearly much remaining to be done, and Britons should not shirk from completing the job. Britain is best served by a democratic and economically open Europe, which is one reason that staying in the EU is in our own interests.
Are you claiming that the newly liberated eastern bloc countries were so poorly led they were incapable of becoming functioning democracies without the EU?
"You're about to join the Euro, are you mad?" (or some such)
and he replied
"If your neighbour was Russia, you'd want to be as much a part of Europe as possible."
It was interesting how different their perspective was. And I think we all need to realise that our choices, as an island on the far West of Europe, are very different to those of a tiny country with an aggressive next door neighbour.0 -
Oh, Remain has some cards in its hand for sure. Still, it's been a bad two days for it. (I personally support Remain fwiw so I'm not talking up my own fancy, nor book, as I haven't bet yet.)EPG said:
Remain will not be running on Cam's pieces of paper but on fear of losing big employers from the South East and some urban centres elsewhereWanderer said:
I think even an even(ish) split is bad for Remain at this point. The last couple of days have been Remain's moment, it's unveiling of the goods. If it's not ahead now it's, hmm, tricky.TheScreamingEagles said:twitter.com/TSEofPB/status/695384763335446528
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I wish Mr Eagles well - it must be very worrying, but why do you think he needs to pay for advice about his treatment?MarqueeMark said:
Hell, that's rough. Get the best medical advice you can afford.TheScreamingEagles said:
Factual though.
I'm in a mood tonight, so you're all going to feel my acidic tongue tonight.
Came home to a letter saying I'm at real risk of losing my sight.
My wife has had excellent treatment for her eyes, on the NHS. She also had excellent treatment for her thyroid condition. By all means ask for second opinions or enquire about the available consultants and leading specialists. But why suggest pay.0 -
Milne == Wormtongue is pitch-perfectTheScreamingEagles said:
Dan Jarvis.viewcode said:
Pelennor Fields is a defeat for Mordor forces. Who do you see beating Corbyn/Sauron?TheScreamingEagles said:
I've written a Lord of The Rings thread for PB for a few weekends hence.viewcode said:
Corbyn as Sauron. John McDonell as Saruman, Seamus Milne as Wormtongue
I'm really proud of a Battle of Pelennor Fields analogy I've come up with
Labour are getting buggered senseless over the 'Threat to National Security' meme.
Major Dan Jarvis will help neutralise that attack.
Plus history does repeat itself, Labour used to be led by a pacifist, then he was toppled by an Army major who led Labour to a landslide victory and ushered in so much change for the country.0 -
If this poll is correct, I'd say that about 20% of Conservatives have really had their confidence in the government's ability to negotiate with the EU undermined.0
-
Not joining the euro was no change, leaving the EU is a change, ordinary people understand the differenceRichard_Tyndall said:
A stupid strategy given that it is so easy to point out how many big employers claimed they would leave the UK if we didn't join the Euro. Of course they didn't and that sort of crying wolf is very easy to highlight.EPG said:
Remain will not be running on Cam's pieces of paper but on fear of losing big employers from the South East and some urban centres elsewhereWanderer said:
I think even an even(ish) split is bad for Remain at this point. The last couple of days have been Remain's moment, it's unveiling of the goods. If it's not ahead now it's, hmm, tricky.TheScreamingEagles said:twitter.com/TSEofPB/status/695384763335446528
Also the Eurosceptics, who are the only ones who buy into this meme, are already voting Leave, and are not a contestable electorate0 -
Perhaps you need to re-read my post as you clearly did not understand it. I said the EU was a major driver of economic and social progress in these countries. I did not exclude other drivers.Richard_Tyndall said:
I have not claimed it was a disaster. I have just said that Dr Fox's claims that it was the EU that turned them from dictatorships into well functioning democracies is utter bollocks.rcs1000 said:
I'm going to put my @Socrates hat on here: those ex Communist countries that joined the EU and looked West have done a lot better than those who stuck with Russia. Doesn't mean it couldn't have happened with some kind of EFTA/EEA, but it's hard to claim that EU membership has been a disaster for the Baltics (for example).Richard_Tyndall said:
All but three of those were former Iron Curtain countries and the EU had sweet FA to do with freeing them from that yoke.foxinsoxuk said:@Perdix
The point about social protection is that the legislation is from the EU, not from Westminster. We could have passed those laws but did not. Leave puts them under threat.
Well within my lifetime Spain, Portugal, Greece, Bulgaria, Romania, Hungary, Croatia, Slovenia, the Czech republic, Slovakia, Poland, Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia were all dictatorships and many very poorly governed. EU membership was a major driver for each of these to develop democratic and economically modern economies. We should be proud of our part in bringing these countries out of their darkness and backwardness. There is clearly much remaining to be done, and Britons should not shirk from completing the job. Britain is best served by a democratic and economically open Europe, which is one reason that staying in the EU is in our own interests.
Are you claiming that the newly liberated eastern bloc countries were so poorly led they were incapable of becoming functioning democracies without the EU?
0 -
I would suggest NATO membership gives far more security. Norway shares a land border and a large swathe of oil rich disputed ocean with Russia but certainly doesn't feel it needs to be in the EU.rcs1000 said:
I was in Latvia about 18 months ago, just a few weeks before they joined the Euro, and I asked my taxi driver:Richard_Tyndall said:
I have not claimed it was a disaster. I have just said that Dr Fox's claims that it was the EU that turned them from dictatorships into well functioning democracies is utter bollocks.rcs1000 said:
I'm going to put my @Socrates hat on here: those ex Communist countries that joined the EU and looked West have done a lot better than those who stuck with Russia. Doesn't mean it couldn't have happened with some kind of EFTA/EEA, but it's hard to claim that EU membership has been a disaster for the Baltics (for example).Richard_Tyndall said:
All but three of those were former Iron Curtain countries and the EU had sweet FA to do with freeing them from that yoke.foxinsoxuk said:@Perdix
The point about social protection is that the legislation is from the EU, not from Westminster. We could have passed those laws but did not. Leave puts them under threat.
Well within my lifetime Spain, Portugal, Greece, Bulgaria, Romania, Hungary, Croatia, Slovenia, the Czech republic, Slovakia, Poland, Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia were all dictatorships and many very poorly governed. EU membership was a major driver for each of these to develop democratic and economically modern economies. We should be proud of our part in bringing these countries out of their darkness and backwardness. There is clearly much remaining to be done, and Britons should not shirk from completing the job. Britain is best served by a democratic and economically open Europe, which is one reason that staying in the EU is in our own interests.
Are you claiming that the newly liberated eastern bloc countries were so poorly led they were incapable of becoming functioning democracies without the EU?
"You're about to join the Euro, are you mad?" (or some such)
and he replied
"If your neighbour was Russia, you'd want to be as much a part of Europe as possible."
It was interesting how different their perspective was. And I think we all need to realise that our choices, as an island on the far West of Europe, are very different to those of a tiny country with an aggressive next door neighbour.0 -
Conservatives just hang on in Bottisham E Cambs
Con 421 LD 403 Lab 99 UKIP 430 -
Illegal immigrant from Essex in Bradford...0
-
I hope it's not true. I know him and his wife slightly and they are a delightful family, with three daughters.TheScreamingEagles said:The Tory MP for Bexhill and Battle has been a very naughty boy
PS Sorry to hear about the eyesight warning - hope it works out.0 -
It should be a lot higher than 20%. I can't see how anyone could think that the government have done well.Sean_F said:If this poll is correct, I'd say that about 20% of Conservatives have really had their confidence in the government's ability to negotiate with the EU undermined.
0 -
'The question I would ask is, without the EU, would those countries be more or less likely still to be democracies in, say, 2050?'
God what patronising drivel.
You are presumably aware that the Czechs for example had a well-functioning democracy and highly advanced economy before these were snuffed out by a combination of Chamberlain, Hitler and Stalin?
0 -
Looks like they walked second place rather than hung onMarkSenior said:Conservatives just hang on in Bottisham E Cambs
Con 321 LD 403 Lab 99 UKIP 430 -
I did read it. And you were still wrong.foxinsoxuk said:
Perhaps you need to re-read my post as you clearly did not understand it. I said the EU was a major driver of economic and social progress in these countries. I did not exclude other drivers.Richard_Tyndall said:
I have not claimed it was a disaster. I have just said that Dr Fox's claims that it was the EU that turned them from dictatorships into well functioning democracies is utter bollocks.rcs1000 said:
I'm going to put my @Socrates hat on here: those ex Communist countries that joined the EU and looked West have done a lot better than those who stuck with Russia. Doesn't mean it couldn't have happened with some kind of EFTA/EEA, but it's hard to claim that EU membership has been a disaster for the Baltics (for example).Richard_Tyndall said:
All but three of those were former Iron Curtain countries and the EU had sweet FA to do with freeing them from that yoke.foxinsoxuk said:@Perdix
The point about social protection is that the legislation is from the EU, not from Westminster. We could have passed those laws but did not. Leave puts them under threat.
Well within my lifetime Spain, Portugal, Greece, Bulgaria, Romania, Hungary, Croatia, Slovenia, the Czech republic, Slovakia, Poland, Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia were all dictatorships and many very poorly governed. EU membership was a major driver for each of these to develop democratic and economically modern economies. We should be proud of our part in bringing these countries out of their darkness and backwardness. There is clearly much remaining to be done, and Britons should not shirk from completing the job. Britain is best served by a democratic and economically open Europe, which is one reason that staying in the EU is in our own interests.
Are you claiming that the newly liberated eastern bloc countries were so poorly led they were incapable of becoming functioning democracies without the EU?0 -
And that is why they joined NATO. But I can certainly understand why in Latvia support for EU and support for the Euro is incredibly high.Richard_Tyndall said:
I would suggest NATO membership gives far more security. Norway shares a land border and a large swathe of oil rich disputed ocean with Russia but certainly doesn't feel it needs to be in the EU.rcs1000 said:
I was in Latvia about 18 months ago, just a few weeks before they joined the Euro, and I asked my taxi driver:Richard_Tyndall said:
I have not claimed it was a disaster. I have just said that Dr Fox's claims that it was the EU that turned them from dictatorships into well functioning democracies is utter bollocks.rcs1000 said:
I'm going to put my @Socrates hat on here: those ex Communist countries that joined the EU and looked West have done a lot better than those who stuck with Russia. Doesn't mean it couldn't have happened with some kind of EFTA/EEA, but it's hard to claim that EU membership has been a disaster for the Baltics (for example).Richard_Tyndall said:
All but three of those were former Iron Curtain countries and the EU had sweet FA to do with freeing them from that yoke.foxinsoxuk said:@Perdix
The point about social protection is that the legislation is from the EU, not from Westminster. We could have passed those laws but did not. Leave puts them under threat.
Well within my lifetime Spain, Portugal, Greece, Bulgaria, Romania, Hungary, Croatia, Slovenia, the Czech republic, Slovakia, Poland, Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia were all dictatorships and many very poorly governed. EU membership was a major driver for each of these to develop democratic and economically modern economies. We should be proud of our part in bringing these countries out of their darkness and backwardness. There is clearly much remaining to be done, and Britons should not shirk from completing the job. Britain is best served by a democratic and economically open Europe, which is one reason that staying in the EU is in our own interests.
Are you claiming that the newly liberated eastern bloc countries were so poorly led they were incapable of becoming functioning democracies without the EU?
"You're about to join the Euro, are you mad?" (or some such)
and he replied
"If your neighbour was Russia, you'd want to be as much a part of Europe as possible."
It was interesting how different their perspective was. And I think we all need to realise that our choices, as an island on the far West of Europe, are very different to those of a tiny country with an aggressive next door neighbour.0 -
@cjharris85: .@Plaid_Cymru beats Labour to GAIN seat in Neath constituency tonight, and also win seat in Bangor! Huge congratulations. #Plaid160
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The Leave side is also built on scaremongering, 30 years of panic about bananas and Polesnigel4england said:
All they have is scaremongering, I find it staggering they accuse the Out campaign of that when there is not one single cohesive argument for staying in.Richard_Tyndall said:
A stupid strategy given that it is so easy to point out how many big employers claimed they would leave the UK if we didn't join the Euro. Of course they didn't and that sort of crying wolf is very easy to highlight.EPG said:
Remain will not be running on Cam's pieces of paper but on fear of losing big employers from the South East and some urban centres elsewhereWanderer said:
I think even an even(ish) split is bad for Remain at this point. The last couple of days have been Remain's moment, it's unveiling of the goods. If it's not ahead now it's, hmm, tricky.TheScreamingEagles said:twitter.com/TSEofPB/status/695384763335446528
Fact is that fear is the best electoral tactic after the psychological scars of nearly a decade of economic stagnation - the end of stable employment - social fragmentation and herding into politically homogenous internet communities whipping up fear of the other side - positivity being seen as just more broken promises - an aging population more worried about their childrens' future and with fears about health and mortality ever more important among the psyche of the electorate - yes fear is the tonic.
That's why everyone scaremongers nowadays0 -
O/T:
Some fine music on TOTP from 5th March 1981, including Once in a Lifetime by Talking Heads and Planet Earth by Duran Duran:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/live/bbcfour0 -
An EU application also requires financial stability, as the Greeks had to prove when they joined.foxinsoxuk said:
An EU application requires all sorts of democratic, human rights, and economic progress. It is a major carrot for these countries.rcs1000 said:
I'm going to put my @Socrates hat on here: those ex Communist countries that joined the EU and looked West have done a lot better than those who stuck with Russia. Doesn't mean it couldn't have happened with some kind of EFTA/EEA, but it's hard to claim that EU membership has been a disaster for the Baltics (for example).Richard_Tyndall said:
All but three of those were former Iron Curtain countries and the EU had sweet FA to do with freeing them from that yoke.foxinsoxuk said:@Perdix
The point about social protection is that the legislation is from the EU, not from Westminster. We could have passed those laws but did not. Leave puts them under threat.
Well within my lifetime Spain, Portugal, Greece, Bulgaria, Romania, Hungary, Croatia, Slovenia, the Czech republic, Slovakia, Poland, Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia were all dictatorships and many very poorly governed. EU membership was a major driver for each of these to develop democratic and economically modern economies. We should be proud of our part in bringing these countries out of their darkness and backwardness. There is clearly much remaining to be done, and Britons should not shirk from completing the job. Britain is best served by a democratic and economically open Europe, which is one reason that staying in the EU is in our own interests.
Are you claiming that the newly liberated eastern bloc countries were so poorly led they were incapable of becoming functioning democracies without the EU?
Imperfect they may be, but these are much better places for the existence of the EU.0 -
Britain Elects @britainelects
Bottisham (East Cambridgeshire) result:
CON: 43.6% (-8.2)
LDEM: 41.7% (+9.8)
LAB: 10.2% (-6.1)
UKIP: 4.5% (+4.5)0 -
The trend is to belittle the government by the press -its self interest from them to see weak government - and to diminish Cameron from his opponents - simple bitterness. The issue of Europe is just the McGuffin.Wanderer said:
Oh, Remain has some cards in its hand for sure. Still, it's been a bad two days for it. (I personally support Remain fwiw so I'm not talking up my own fancy, nor book, as I haven't bet yet.)EPG said:
Remain will not be running on Cam's pieces of paper but on fear of losing big employers from the South East and some urban centres elsewhereWanderer said:
I think even an even(ish) split is bad for Remain at this point. The last couple of days have been Remain's moment, it's unveiling of the goods. If it's not ahead now it's, hmm, tricky.TheScreamingEagles said:twitter.com/TSEofPB/status/695384763335446528
There is a referendum, a vote.
Vote for gawds sake. Cut the crap, just vote.
It won't make much difference - you are a fool if you think so. Being in the EEA will be pretty much the same - except we will have to start negotiating all over again.0 -
To clarify, 40% or so had little or confidence to begin with.glw said:
It should be a lot higher than 20%. I can't see how anyone could think that the government have done well.Sean_F said:If this poll is correct, I'd say that about 20% of Conservatives have really had their confidence in the government's ability to negotiate with the EU undermined.
The killer finding is the 23% who think the PM has done worse than they expected.0 -
LOL. The stuck Cameroon record playing yet again.flightpath01 said:
The trend is to belittle the government by the press -its self interest from them top see weak government - and to diminish Cameron from his opponents - simple bitterness. The issue of Europe is just the McGuffin.Wanderer said:
Oh, Remain has some cards in its hand for sure. Still, it's been a bad two days for it. (I personally support Remain fwiw so I'm not talking up my own fancy, nor book, as I haven't bet yet.)EPG said:
Remain will not be running on Cam's pieces of paper but on fear of losing big employers from the South East and some urban centres elsewhereWanderer said:
I think even an even(ish) split is bad for Remain at this point. The last couple of days have been Remain's moment, it's unveiling of the goods. If it's not ahead now it's, hmm, tricky.TheScreamingEagles said:twitter.com/TSEofPB/status/695384763335446528
There is a referendum, a vote.
Vote for gawds sake. Cut the crap, just vote.
It won't make much difference - you are a fool if you think so. Being in the EEA will be pretty much the same - except we will have to start negotiating all over again.0 -
I would agree, and the Royal Hallamshire is an excellent hospital, and the new diabetes treatments are financially well supported by the NHS. Indeed the funding and delivery of diabetes treatments by the NHS is part of the reason for its financial predicament.flightpath01 said:
I wish Mr Eagles well - it must be very worrying, but why do you think he needs to pay for advice about his treatment?MarqueeMark said:
Hell, that's rough. Get the best medical advice you can afford.TheScreamingEagles said:
Factual though.
I'm in a mood tonight, so you're all going to feel my acidic tongue tonight.
Came home to a letter saying I'm at real risk of losing my sight.
My wife has had excellent treatment for her eyes, on the NHS. She also had excellent treatment for her thyroid condition. By all means ask for second opinions or enquire about the available consultants and leading specialists. But why suggest pay.0 -
Thank you everyone for the kind words tonight.
Good night everybody.0 -
Realpolitk trumps alliances, no matter how successful they have been in the past. There's no doubt that being part of the EU and the Eurozone makes any aggression against those countries feel much more like an aggression against the whole.Richard_Tyndall said:I would suggest NATO membership gives far more security. Norway shares a land border and a large swathe of oil rich disputed ocean with Russia but certainly doesn't feel it needs to be in the EU.
If Russia contrives a situation in which they come into open conflict with Turkey, will NATO really fall into line behind them? It's very doubtful.0 -
TSE: Just seen the news. Really sorry. Best of luck and hope you get the best medical help you need.TheScreamingEagles said:Thank you everyone for the kind words tonight.
Good night everybody.
0 -
It's not a question of "poorly led", it's a question of giving them a template to follow. From little things like the existence[1] of political parties to big things like electoral law and governments allowing a peaceful handover if they lose, letting them into the EU (and the reforms they had to implement to get in) aided their transition to democracy.Richard_Tyndall said:
All but three of those were former Iron Curtain countries and the EU had sweet FA to do with freeing them from that yoke.foxinsoxuk said:@Perdix
The point about social protection is that the legislation is from the EU, not from Westminster. We could have passed those laws but did not. Leave puts them under threat.
Well within my lifetime Spain, Portugal, Greece, Bulgaria, Romania, Hungary, Croatia, Slovenia, the Czech republic, Slovakia, Poland, Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia were all dictatorships and many very poorly governed. EU membership was a major driver for each of these to develop democratic and economically modern economies. We should be proud of our part in bringing these countries out of their darkness and backwardness. There is clearly much remaining to be done, and Britons should not shirk from completing the job. Britain is best served by a democratic and economically open Europe, which is one reason that staying in the EU is in our own interests.
Are you claiming that the newly liberated eastern bloc countries were so poorly led they were incapable of becoming functioning democracies without the EU?
The Eastern Europeans aren't stupid, but a functioning liberal democracy requires an institutional memory that they just didn't have. Bringing them into the Western sphere was an enormous achievement, and it could very easily have gone the other way. If it helps, you can give the credit to the Western nations collectively instead of the EU as an entity
[1] When the Wall fell, the concept of political parties was regarded with some suspicion. The only ones allowed had been the Communist Party and some variants (one-party state, remember?). I think that's why to this day, lists are more popular.
0 -
Greece joined the EU in 1981 as I recall, well before its recent problems.nigel4england said:
An EU application also requires financial stability, as the Greeks had to prove when they joined.foxinsoxuk said:
An EU application requires all sorts of democratic, human rights, and economic progress. It is a major carrot for these countries.rcs1000 said:
I'm going to put my @Socrates hat on here: those ex Communist countries that joined the EU and looked West have done a lot better than those who stuck with Russia. Doesn't mean it couldn't have happened with some kind of EFTA/EEA, but it's hard to claim that EU membership has been a disaster for the Baltics (for example).Richard_Tyndall said:
All but three of those were former Iron Curtain countries and the EU had sweet FA to do with freeing them from that yoke.foxinsoxuk said:@Perdix
The point about social protection is that the legislation is from the EU, not from Westminster. We could have passed those laws but did not. Leave puts them under threat.
Well within my lifetime Spain, Portugal, Greece, Bulgaria, Romania, Hungary, Croatia, Slovenia, the Czech republic, Slovakia, Poland, Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia were all dictatorships and many very poorly governed. EU membership was a major driver for each of these to develop democratic and economically modern economies. We should be proud of our part in bringing these countries out of their darkness and backwardness. There is clearly much remaining to be done, and Britons should not shirk from completing the job. Britain is best served by a democratic and economically open Europe, which is one reason that staying in the EU is in our own interests.
Are you claiming that the newly liberated eastern bloc countries were so poorly led they were incapable of becoming functioning democracies without the EU?
Imperfect they may be, but these are much better places for the existence of the EU.
If you spend far more money than you raise in taxes over a prolonged period then the economy goes tits up, whether in or out of the EU or Euro. Its not rocket science!0 -
Not just the small countries on the eastern fringe. The Balkans, the Czech Republic, Austria, Hungary, Poland, the Netherlands, even Italy and Spain: all of these countries are either relatively new nation-states which have for centuries been subject to various tyrannies from outside, or have been outside the European mainstream for most of the post-war period. Their perspective is completely different from ours. And the same is true, for different reasons, for France and Germany.rcs1000 said:I was in Latvia about 18 months ago, just a few weeks before they joined the Euro, and I asked my taxi driver:
"You're about to join the Euro, are you mad?" (or some such)
and he replied
"If your neighbour was Russia, you'd want to be as much a part of Europe as possible."
It was interesting how different their perspective was. And I think we all need to realise that our choices, as an island on the far West of Europe, are very different to those of a tiny country with an aggressive next door neighbour.0 -
The EU was very flexible when it came to some of the newer members, i.e. turning a blind eye to high levels of corruption.foxinsoxuk said:
An EU application requires all sorts of democratic, human rights, and economic progress. It is a major carrot for these countries.rcs1000 said:
I'm going to put my @Socrates hat on here: those ex Communist countries that joined the EU and looked West have done a lot better than those who stuck with Russia. Doesn't mean it couldn't have happened with some kind of EFTA/EEA, but it's hard to claim that EU membership has been a disaster for the Baltics (for example).Richard_Tyndall said:
All but three of those were former Iron Curtain countries and the EU had sweet FA to do with freeing them from that yoke.foxinsoxuk said:@Perdix
The point about social protection is that the legislation is from the EU, not from Westminster. We could have passed those laws but did not. Leave puts them under threat.
Well within my lifetime Spain, Portugal, Greece, Bulgaria, Romania, Hungary, Croatia, Slovenia, the Czech republic, Slovakia, Poland, Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia were all dictatorships and many very poorly governed. EU membership was a major driver for each of these to develop democratic and economically modern economies. We should be proud of our part in bringing these countries out of their darkness and backwardness. There is clearly much remaining to be done, and Britons should not shirk from completing the job. Britain is best served by a democratic and economically open Europe, which is one reason that staying in the EU is in our own interests.
Are you claiming that the newly liberated eastern bloc countries were so poorly led they were incapable of becoming functioning democracies without the EU?
Imperfect they may be, but these are much better places for the existence of the EU.0 -
Good luck.TheScreamingEagles said:Thank you everyone for the kind words tonight.
Good night everybody.0
