@DPJHodges: Hilary Benn doesn't just look like the leader of the opposition at the moment. He looks like the prime minister.
Can't help but agree with that. That was Churchillian.
And he turned around and personally addressed the Labour benches himself, appealing to them to support their sister socialist party, as if he really *was* the leader.
Simply astonishing.
I have just watched it. A fantastic speech. The ending was very good indeed. Passionate and right. That's a leader's speech. That is Labour - real Labour - at its very best. Good to see.
I watched it too and I disagreed with his speech in it's entirety, for this is a religious war not a political one. How can you have a someone on foreign affairs who knows nothing of foreign affairs ?
I didn't see it, but you can guarantee it was better than the rubbish Corbyn was spouting..
I'd love to see Corbyn reason with an IS terrorist with an AK47 pointed at him.
It would be interesting to see that too.
However I'm making a forecast that in a year's time Corbyn would be asking for resignations of ministers or even the PM. Over a war effort going pear shaped or a terrorist attack that would instantly undermine the PM's case of "bombing Syria once a day keeps the terrorists away" reasoning.
I hope Benn will be sacked long before then.
Tonight the government has put ISIS on the driving seat, and it's fate is linked to what ISIS does.
Just seen that speech. Who would have thought he had it in him? Cometh the hour, cometh the man.
Foot and Kinnock (and Benn Sr!) were accomplished orators. It didn't win them any elections.
Oh I don't think he'll be next leader. But that was his hour.
He is clearly in a minority in the PLP. I don't think the members would vote him in either.
In these dark days you take what you can get. Mr Benn articulated a sense of what Labour could and should be, but won't ever be with Corbyn and the likes of NickP ruling the roost. But just to hear it after so many bleak weeks was something very special. It won't change much, but it was beautiful to behold.
I think there something more than that actually. I thought it was by far the best speech I've heard that articulated liberal democracy's defiance of islamofascism. I mean, I think he was truly speaking for the country.
Just seen that speech. Who would have thought he had it in him? Cometh the hour, cometh the man.
Foot and Kinnock (and Benn Sr!) were accomplished orators. It didn't win them any elections.
Oh I don't think he'll be next leader. But that was his hour.
He is clearly in a minority in the PLP. I don't think the members would vote him in either.
In these dark days you take what you can get. Mr Benn articulated a sense of what Labour could and should be, but won't ever be with Corbyn and the likes of NickP ruling the roost. But just to hear it after so many bleak weeks was something very special. It won't change much, but it was beautiful to behold.
@GeorgeWParker: Defence sources saying RAF bombers currently targeting Iraq expected to start targeting Isis in Syria tomorrow
It was revealed that when they destroyed the IS oil trucks they leafleted the site first to tell the drivers to get away from the trucks. The drivers are not non-combatants!
It was also revealed by former CIA Director Mike Morell that the Obama administration didn't bomb the IS oil installations because they didn't want to cause environmental damage.
The oil is how IS gets much of its income. This is no way to fight a war.
@DPJHodges: Hilary Benn doesn't just look like the leader of the opposition at the moment. He looks like the prime minister.
Can't help but agree with that. That was Churchillian.
And he turned around and personally addressed the Labour benches himself, appealing to them to support their sister socialist party, as if he really *was* the leader.
Simply astonishing.
I have just watched it. A fantastic speech. The ending was very good indeed. Passionate and right. That's a leader's speech. That is Labour - real Labour - at its very best. Good to see.
I watched it too and I disagreed with his speech in it's entirety, for this is a religious war not a political one. How can you have a someone on foreign affairs who knows nothing of foreign affairs ?
I didn't see it, but you can guarantee it was better than the rubbish Corbyn was spouting..
I'd love to see Corbyn reason with an IS terrorist with an AK47 pointed at him.
It would be interesting to see that too.
However I'm making a forecast that in a year's time Corbyn would be asking for resignations of ministers or even the PM. Over a war effort going pear shaped or a terrorist attack that would instantly undermine the PM's case of "bombing Syria once a day keeps the terrorists away" reasoning.
I hope Benn will be sacked long before then.
Tonight the government has put ISIS on the driving seat, and it's fate is linked to what ISIS does.
Rubbish - it is the right thing to do
And the cliche answer: "It is the stupid thing to do."
Never do things because they are right, do them because they work.
The PM declared it was the right thing to do, and now he's hostage to the fortunes and plans of ISIS that he can't control.
@DPJHodges: Hilary Benn doesn't just look like the leader of the opposition at the moment. He looks like the prime minister.
Can't help but agree with that. That was Churchillian.
And he turned around and personally addressed the Labour benches himself, appealing to them to support their sister socialist party, as if he really *was* the leader.
Simply astonishing.
I have just watched it. A fantastic speech. The ending was very good indeed. Passionate and right. That's a leader's speech. That is Labour - real Labour - at its very best. Good to see.
I watched it too and I disagreed with his speech in it's entirety, for this is a religious war not a political one. How can you have a someone on foreign affairs who knows nothing of foreign affairs ?
I didn't see it, but you can guarantee it was better than the rubbish Corbyn was spouting..
I'd love to see Corbyn reason with an IS terrorist with an AK47 pointed at him.
It would be interesting to see that too.
However I'm making a forecast that in a year's time Corbyn would be asking for resignations of ministers or even the PM. Over a war effort going pear shaped or a terrorist attack that would instantly undermine the PM's case of "bombing Syria once a day keeps the terrorists away" reasoning.
I hope Benn will be sacked long before then.
Tonight the government has put ISIS on the driving seat, and it's fate is linked to what ISIS does.
Rubbish - it is the right thing to do
And the cliche answer: "It is the stupid thing to do."
Never do things because they are right, do them because they work.
The PM declared it was the right thing to do, and now he's hostage to the fortunes and plans of ISIS that he can't control.
That would also have been the case had he chosen not to extend the campaign against Da'esh in Iraq to Syria. Taking a decision not to act is as much an act for which one is to be held accountable as taking a decision to act.
So 25 out 57 where shadow cabinet members if the chattering is correct, I know of the notion keep your friends close but your enemies closer but this is ridiculous, Corbyn has managed to appoint half of all his sworn enemies in the shadow cabinet.
Corbyn should do a reshuffle and get rid of them, there are many more Labour MP's who are more loyal and would cause less trouble to replace the troublemakers.
Cause less trouble, maybe. But would also make the shadow cabinet worse. And that's saying something.
He would had shadow cabinet ministers who would do their job instead of conspire daily to overthrow him. He would also deprive his enemies of a position of political strength, if Benn had been sacked before the vote he would have caused less trouble.
Cameron did the same when he sacked Davies from the shadow home office over Davies opposition to the 28 days detention that New Labour proposed, Cameron got the opportunity to sack his biggest rival early on.
Davis resigned from shadow cabinet in 2008.
If you're spinning for Corbyn, at least get your facts right.
Cameron got the opportunity to sack him, get your facts right.
He resigned when he resigned his seat. Cameron (pointedly, of course) chose not to keep his job open for him.
Labour MP David Lammy has filed a complaint with the BBC over the lack of ethnic diversity among Question Time panelists, providing research claiming that more than 60% of shows in the last five years had no figures from a black, Asian or other minority ethnic background.
The tricky bit for anyone taking over from Corbyn is what to do with Corbyn? The Tories will when faced with a new LOTO simply keep reminding the electorate of what has happened since May and those responsible as well as many supporters are always poised to do it again. If they can cement an idea this may happen between elections then it could be a powerful message.
So any replacement will need to ensure that those likely to attempt such a thing are not in a position to do so or even be a constant threat. That means expulsion from the party and perhaps a split as various factions choose sides.
Then there is finance and the Unions. We have been constantly reminded who started the party and Len says Jeremy's going nowhere. These two following tweets mentioned on a previous thread shows some of the massive problems that face the moderates in Labour.
@GraemeDemianyk: STW's John Rees warns Labour MPs supporting "corporatists and arms dealers" that "if wanted a quiet life should have become a monk or a nun"
@GraemeDemianyk: Rees tells Labour MPs who "sit on your fat arses" that if appear on "traitors' list" won't get penny of union money
Benn made a good speech indeed. The challenges are far more complex than a simple speech as the attitudes in these tweets and the twaterrati have already shown.
@kle4 I actually think twitter and social media is the worst thing to happen to the Labour party and the Left in general. It's become an echo-chamber for activists, who can go online and not have to confront ordinary people and how they view life. It's during GE when these people are forced to confront how different public opinion is to their opinions. But rather than understand different opinions, or try to persuade voters of their POV they simply dismiss the the public and anyone who disagrees with them. This kind of intolerance in the Labour party today for differing views is one bred and developed by social media. @AlastairMeeks I don't know about that. To a degree we all all live in our own world yes. However most of us aren't completely deluded, and can deal with people having opinions different to us. Those on twitter cannot deal with the fact someone may disagree with Corbyn on anything.
I think Rosie Winterton needs to go - you can't have a bloody whip acting against the leader lol.
But it was a "free vote"!
Or do you have money on this one as well...
Lol no, but when you're the whip and fail to whip yrself lol.
She was on Shady's first out of the Shadow Cabinet market.
16/1.
Technically yes a free vote. But that was as we all know a gigantic fudge. But really, the chief whip voting against the leader? Will reality ever break into this Labour party? Far less has sunk a party leader. But this is a party now and a leader like no other. Labour are stuffed. Ruprecht has slipped his genital cuffs and been allowed to run riot.
Labour MP David Lammy has filed a complaint with the BBC over the lack of ethnic diversity among Question Time panelists, providing research claiming that more than 60% of shows in the last five years had no figures from a black, Asian or other minority ethnic background.
Just seen that speech. Who would have thought he had it in him? Cometh the hour, cometh the man.
Foot and Kinnock (and Benn Sr!) were accomplished orators. It didn't win them any elections.
Oh I don't think he'll be next leader. But that was his hour.
He is clearly in a minority in the PLP. I don't think the members would vote him in either.
In these dark days you take what you can get. Mr Benn articulated a sense of what Labour could and should be, but won't ever be with Corbyn and the likes of NickP ruling the roost. But just to hear it after so many bleak weeks was something very special. It won't change much, but it was beautiful to behold.
Do you support the airstrikes out of interest, SO ?
On balance I do. I don't think they put us in greater danger and they may help to make us safer in the longer term. And as Benn said, we should be fighting fascists who hate everything about the UK and other western countries, and want nothing more than to slaughter us.
@DPJHodges: Hilary Benn doesn't just look like the leader of the opposition at the moment. He looks like the prime minister.
Can't help but agree with that. That was Churchillian.
And he turned around and personally addressed the Labour benches himself, appealing to them to support their sister socialist party, as if he really *was* the leader.
Simply astonishing.
I have just watched it. A fantastic speech. The ending was very good indeed. Passionate and right. That's a leader's speech. That is Labour - real Labour - at its very best. Good to see.
I watched it too and I disagreed with his speech in it's entirety, for this is a religious war not a political one. How can you have a someone on foreign affairs who knows nothing of foreign affairs ?
I didn't see it, but you can guarantee it was better than the rubbish Corbyn was spouting..
I'd love to see Corbyn reason with an IS terrorist with an AK47 pointed at him.
It would be interesting to see that too.
However I'm making a forecast that in a year's time Corbyn would be asking for resignations of ministers or even the PM. Over a war effort going pear shaped or a terrorist attack that would instantly undermine the PM's case of "bombing Syria once a day keeps the terrorists away" reasoning.
I hope Benn will be sacked long before then.
Tonight the government has put ISIS on the driving seat, and it's fate is linked to what ISIS does.
Rubbish - it is the right thing to do
And the cliche answer: "It is the stupid thing to do."
Never do things because they are right, do them because they work.
The PM declared it was the right thing to do, and now he's hostage to the fortunes and plans of ISIS that he can't control.
That would also have been the case had he chosen not to extend the campaign against Da'esh in Iraq to Syria. Taking a decision not to act is as much an act for which one is to be held accountable as taking a decision to act.
If the decision had not be taken then Corbyn would have been hostage to the situation with ISIS. Imagine if Corbyn had won the vote and ISIS was still there causing trouble, everyone would be blaming Corbyn. Now everyone would be blaming Cameron for every misstep or failure on ISIS.
I think Rosie Winterton needs to go - you can't have a bloody whip acting against the leader lol.
But it was a "free vote"!
Or do you have money on this one as well...
Lol no, but when you're the whip and fail to whip yrself lol.
She was on Shady's first out of the Shadow Cabinet market.
16/1.
Technically yes a free vote. But that was as we all know a gigantic fudge. But really, the chief whip voting against the leader? Will reality ever break into this Labour party? Far less has sunk a party leader. But this is a party now and a leader like no other. Labour are stuffed. Ruprecht has slipped his genital cuffs and been allowed to run riot.
It is clear that Corbyn is Leader in name only. He does not command the support of his parliamentary colleagues and that, ultimately, will prove fatal for him (and probably for Labour, if they don't act now to get him out)
Benn made a good speech indeed. The challenges are far more complex than a simple speech as the attitudes in these tweets and the twaterrati have already shown.
If it was all down to speeches Corbyn wouldn't have a chance. Even Margaret Beckett gave a far better speech than Corbyn. Corbyn has the backing of a majority of members who voted, and unless a lot of them change their minds Corybn (or his anointed successor) are likely to keep hold of the reins.
So 25 out 57 where shadow cabinet members if the chattering is correct, I know of the notion keep your friends close but your enemies closer but this is ridiculous, Corbyn has managed to appoint half of all his sworn enemies in the shadow cabinet.
Corbyn should do a reshuffle and get rid of them, there are many more Labour MP's who are more loyal and would cause less trouble to replace the troublemakers.
Cause less trouble, maybe. But would also make the shadow cabinet worse. And that's saying something.
He would had shadow cabinet ministers who would do their job instead of conspire daily to overthrow him. He would also deprive his enemies of a position of political strength, if Benn had been sacked before the vote he would have caused less trouble.
Cameron did the same when he sacked Davies from the shadow home office over Davies opposition to the 28 days detention that New Labour proposed, Cameron got the opportunity to sack his biggest rival early on.
Davis resigned from shadow cabinet in 2008.
If you're spinning for Corbyn, at least get your facts right.
Cameron got the opportunity to sack him, get your facts right.
So 25 out 57 where shadow cabinet members if the chattering is correct, I know of the notion keep your friends close but your enemies closer but this is ridiculous, Corbyn has managed to appoint half of all his sworn enemies in the shadow cabinet.
Corbyn should do a reshuffle and get rid of them, there are many more Labour MP's who are more loyal and would cause less trouble to replace the troublemakers.
Cause less trouble, maybe. But would also make the shadow cabinet worse. And that's saying something.
He would had shadow cabinet ministers who would do their job instead of conspire daily to overthrow him. He would also deprive his enemies of a position of political strength, if Benn had been sacked before the vote he would have caused less trouble.
Cameron did the same when he sacked Davies from the shadow home office over Davies opposition to the 28 days detention that New Labour proposed, Cameron got the opportunity to sack his biggest rival early on.
Davis resigned from shadow cabinet in 2008.
If you're spinning for Corbyn, at least get your facts right.
Cameron got the opportunity to sack him, get your facts right.
You said Cameron sacked him. He didn't. Having the opportunity to do something is not the same as doing something.
Labour MP David Lammy has filed a complaint with the BBC over the lack of ethnic diversity among Question Time panelists, providing research claiming that more than 60% of shows in the last five years had no figures from a black, Asian or other minority ethnic background.
... and if the other 40% had at least one, that probably works out as reasonably proportionate
Its a strange way to phrase the ethnic makeup of QT. Surely the most accurate way would be to give the exact percentage of QT panelists who were BME and match that up to the national average -14%.
FPT Cyclefree said: » show previous quotes Whistleblowing: my specialist subject. I could talk about this for hours. But it's late and I have appraisals for my staff to write so I owe it to them to do this properly.
And I'd like to hear Mr TimT's take.
I was unaware of Mr Woodford until this post, but now I'd like to shake his hand.
I try to be involved at a much earlier stage than whistleblowers. If a whistleblower is required, then my approach has already failed.
The culture of safety and excellence should preclude any need for whistleblowers as it is built around no-blame reporting of failure or near miss (O'Neill's opportunities to learn), continual risk assessment, close measurement and scrutiny of performance, analysis of variance from expectations to assess whether the variance is significant and hence necessitates change, unfettered two-way communications, peer and personal responsibility which naturally evolves into a group responsibility, and from this continual improvement. Thus, if such a system is in place, a Barings should never happen.
This system is based upon people going to work to do the right thing, rather than to cheat or steal. But, because of the measurement, scrutiny, and peer/group accountability aspects, it would tend to uncover criminal aspects sooner rather than later.
So 25 out 57 where shadow cabinet members if the chattering is correct, I know of the notion keep your friends close but your enemies closer but this is ridiculous, Corbyn has managed to appoint half of all his sworn enemies in the shadow cabinet.
Corbyn should do a reshuffle and get rid of them, there are many more Labour MP's who are more loyal and would cause less trouble to replace the troublemakers.
Cause less trouble, maybe. But would also make the shadow cabinet worse. And that's saying something.
He would had shadow cabinet ministers who would do their job instead of conspire daily to overthrow him. He would also deprive his enemies of a position of political strength, if Benn had been sacked before the vote he would have caused less trouble.
Cameron did the same when he sacked Davies from the shadow home office over Davies opposition to the 28 days detention that New Labour proposed, Cameron got the opportunity to sack his biggest rival early on.
Davis resigned from shadow cabinet in 2008.
If you're spinning for Corbyn, at least get your facts right.
Cameron got the opportunity to sack him, get your facts right.
He resigned when he resigned his seat. Cameron (pointedly, of course) chose not to keep his job open for him.
@DPJHodges: Hilary Benn doesn't just look like the leader of the opposition at the moment. He looks like the prime minister.
Can't help but agree with that. That was Churchillian.
And he turned around and personally addressed the Labour benches himself, appealing to them to support their sister socialist party, as if he really *was* the leader.
Simply astonishing.
I have just watched it. A fantastic speech. The ending was very good indeed. Passionate and right. That's a leader's speech. That is Labour - real Labour - at its very best. Good to see.
I watched it too and I disagreed with his speech in it's entirety, for this is a religious war not a political one. How can you have a someone on foreign affairs who knows nothing of foreign affairs ?
I didn't see it, but you can guarantee it was better than the rubbish Corbyn was spouting..
I'd love to see Corbyn reason with an IS terrorist with an AK47 pointed at him.
It would be interesting to see that too.
However I'm making a forecast that in a year's time Corbyn would be asking for resignations of ministers or even the PM. Over a war effort going pear shaped or a terrorist attack that would instantly undermine the PM's case of "bombing Syria once a day keeps the terrorists away" reasoning.
I hope Benn will be sacked long before then.
Tonight the government has put ISIS on the driving seat, and it's fate is linked to what ISIS does.
Rubbish - it is the right thing to do
And the cliche answer: "It is the stupid thing to do."
Never do things because they are right, do them because they work.
The PM declared it was the right thing to do, and now he's hostage to the fortunes and plans of ISIS that he can't control.
This whole vote was a symbolic one, as Britain does not posses the military capabilities to even put a dent on the armour of ISIS, you need a quarter of a million infantry troops to do the job not 16 planes. It simply shifted any blame for things going wrong from Corbyn's hands to Cameron's hands, he won the vote so the any blame rests on him and Benn from now on.
Last comment before bed - many Labour members will have voted against action despite Corbyn not because of Corbyn. To think they are now all Jezlamists is delusional.
FPT Cyclefree said: » show previous quotes Thank you. I will. The Alcoa case is a good one. It chimes with something I say in my training - that we learn best from our mistakes, if we have the courage to admit to them.
If I had to choose 4 characteristics when hiring I'd go for character (moral character not "he's a laugh in the pub" character), curiosity ("why" is the most lethal word in the English language), courage and common-sense. I can almost feel an article coming on......
@DPJHodges: Hilary Benn doesn't just look like the leader of the opposition at the moment. He looks like the prime minister.
Can't help but agree with that. That was Churchillian.
And he turned around and personally addressed the Labour benches himself, appealing to them to support their sister socialist party, as if he really *was* the leader.
Simply astonishing.
I have just watched it. A fantastic speech. The ending was very good indeed. Passionate and right. That's a leader's speech. That is Labour - real Labour - at its very best. Good to see.
I watched it too and I disagreed with his speech in it's entirety, for this is a religious war not a political one. How can you have a someone on foreign affairs who knows nothing of foreign affairs ?
(snipped)
It would be interesting to see that too.
However I'm making a forecast that in a year's time Corbyn would be asking for resignations of ministers or even the PM. Over a war effort going pear shaped or a terrorist attack that would instantly undermine the PM's case of "bombing Syria once a day keeps the terrorists away" reasoning.
I hope Benn will be sacked long before then.
Tonight the government has put ISIS on the driving seat, and it's fate is linked to what ISIS does.
Rubbish - it is the right thing to do
And the cliche answer: "It is the stupid thing to do."
Never do things because they are right, do them because they work.
The PM declared it was the right thing to do, and now he's hostage to the fortunes and plans of ISIS that he can't control.
That would also have been the case had he chosen not to extend the campaign against Da'esh in Iraq to Syria. Taking a decision not to act is as much an act for which one is to be held accountable as taking a decision to act.
If the decision had not be taken then Corbyn would have been hostage to the situation with ISIS. Imagine if Corbyn had won the vote and ISIS was still there causing trouble, everyone would be blaming Corbyn. Now everyone would be blaming Cameron for every misstep or failure on ISIS.
You're saying that Mr Cameron would have been wiser to let Mr Corbyn "win" for party-political reasons? Nothing to do with the greatest benefit of the greatest number, or whatever that old saying is?
Benn made a good speech indeed. The challenges are far more complex than a simple speech as the attitudes in these tweets and the twaterrati have already shown.
If it was all down to speeches Corbyn wouldn't have a chance. Even Margaret Beckett gave a far better speech than Corbyn. Corbyn has the backing of a majority of members who voted, and unless a lot of them change their minds Corybn (or his anointed successor) are likely to keep hold of the reins.
I wouldn't read it like that. His position (despite his obfuscation) is that he is against all action at all times. People in his camp are fewer than 20. The reason he can't do a mass sacking of the Shadow Cabinet is that the heid the baw group would all have to do 4 jobs each.
What impact does the events of tonight have on tomorrow's result?
If Labour lose (not a prediction) is Corbyn vulnerable enough to a Benn putch?
The rule is, far fewer rebellions actually occur than are conceived of or rumoured. Couldn't even force Gordon out, took long enough to get Blair out...
Mail reporting the authorities in California are saying that the shooting was "domestic terrorism". Given the report is that it was 3 white guys, I presume they mean they are Neo Nazi / White Supremacist nutters.
@kle4 I actually think twitter and social media is the worst thing to happen to the Labour party and the Left in general. It's become an echo-chamber for activists, who can go online and not have to confront ordinary people and how they view life. It's during GE when these people are forced to confront how different public opinion is to their opinions. But rather than understand different opinions, or try to persuade voters of their POV they simply dismiss the the public and anyone who disagrees with them. This kind of intolerance in the Labour party today for differing views is one bred and developed by social media.
That's interesting. It is striking that the left dominates social media and that it seems to do them no good whatsoever. Are the two facts connected?
Was the left always bound to slump when Blair reached his sell-by date? Probably. So it might just be a coincidence that the left went into decline (in Britain) at around the time Twitter and Facebook started to grow.
What you say does seem plausible, though.
Can anything be read into the fact that the right has less of a position in social media? Why should that be? A small-c conservative aversion to new technology? Too busy eating babies?
I wonder how social media usage differs between Democrats and Republicans in the US. There it seems to be the right that is engaged in self-absorbed madness.
So 25 out 57 where shadow cabinet members if the chattering is correct, I know of the notion keep your friends close but your enemies closer but this is ridiculous, Corbyn has managed to appoint half of all his sworn enemies in the shadow cabinet.
Corbyn should do a reshuffle and get rid of them, there are many more Labour MP's who are more loyal and would cause less trouble to replace the troublemakers.
Cause less trouble, maybe. But would also make the shadow cabinet worse. And that's saying something.
He would had shadow cabinet ministers who would do their job instead of conspire daily to overthrow him. He would also deprive his enemies of a position of political strength, if Benn had been sacked before the vote he would have caused less trouble.
Cameron did the same when he sacked Davies from the shadow home office over Davies opposition to the 28 days detention that New Labour proposed, Cameron got the opportunity to sack his biggest rival early on.
Davis resigned from shadow cabinet in 2008.
If you're spinning for Corbyn, at least get your facts right.
Cameron got the opportunity to sack him, get your facts right.
Rewriting history now are you?
Davis resigned from shadow cabinet and fought a by election.
Speedy is exposing his supreme dimness. Such dimness does at least illuminate the total bollox that loopy lefties spout.
Mail reporting the authorities in California are saying that the shooting was "domestic terrorism". Given the report is that it was 3 white guys, I presume they mean they are Neo Nazi / White Supremacist nutters.
This whole vote was a symbolic one, as Britain does not posses the military capabilities to even put a dent on the armour of ISIS, you need a quarter of a million infantry troops to do the job not 16 planes. It simply shifted any blame for things going wrong from Corbyn's hands to Cameron's hands, he won the vote so the any blame rests on him and Benn from now on.
Any of the big western airforces could easily destroy ISIS in the field, the problem isn't firepower the problem is a mix of will to do so and the acceptance of collateral damage amongst civilians as the targets are mainly surrounded by them.
Benn made a good speech indeed. The challenges are far more complex than a simple speech as the attitudes in these tweets and the twaterrati have already shown.
If it was all down to speeches Corbyn wouldn't have a chance. Even Margaret Beckett gave a far better speech than Corbyn. Corbyn has the backing of a majority of members who voted, and unless a lot of them change their minds Corybn (or his anointed successor) are likely to keep hold of the reins.
I wouldn't read it like that. His position (despite his obfuscation) is that he is against all action at all times. People in his camp are fewer than 20. The reason he can't do a mass sacking of the Shadow Cabinet is that the heid the baw group would all have to do 4 jobs each.
True, but plenty of Labour MPs backed him tonight, there are a lot of Labour MPs who are looking over the shoulders, and recent polls suggest that Labour members are still keen on Corbyn.
Mail reporting the authorities in California are saying that the shooting was "domestic terrorism". Given the report is that it was 3 white guys, I presume they mean they are Neo Nazi / White Supremacist nutters.
Robert called it right then
Telegraph reporting that they are now engaged in car chase / shoot out with them. So I presume we will know a lot more shortly.
@DPJHodges: Hilary Benn doesn't just look like the leader of the opposition at the moment. He looks like the prime minister.
Can't help but agree with that. That was Churchillian.
And he turned around and personally addressed the Labour benches himself, appealing to them to support their sister socialist party, as if he really *was* the leader.
Simply astonishing.
I have just watched it. A fantastic speech. The ending was very good indeed. Passionate and right. That's a leader's speech. That is Labour - real Labour - at its very best. Good to see.
I watched it too and I disagreed with his speech in it's entirety, for this is a religious war not a political one. How can you have a someone on foreign affairs who knows nothing of foreign affairs ?
I didn't see it, but you can guarantee it was better than the rubbish Corbyn was spouting..
I'd love to see Corbyn reason with an IS terrorist with an AK47 pointed at him.
It would be interesting to see that too.
However I'm making a forecast that in a year's time Corbyn would be asking for resignations of ministers or even the PM. Over a war effort going pear shaped or a terrorist attack that would instantly undermine the PM's case of "bombing Syria once a day keeps the terrorists away" reasoning.
I hope Benn will be sacked long before then.
Tonight the government has put ISIS on the driving seat, and it's fate is linked to what ISIS does.
Yes nice and easy for you.
As we are already bombing in Syria as part of coalition forces would said resignation be demanded as a result of Iraq bombing or Syria bombing and how would you know? Of course ISIS will probably say it's as a result of Syria and of course you would no doubt except that without question and would actually place ISIS in the driving seat yourself.
Of course we could do absolutely nothing and just wait for them to turn up here. It's inevitable really they will whatever decision was achieved tonight they are coming as we have already headed of several potential attacks to date. If we did nothing to day we would then be in an unenviable position of asking for help that wouldn't be forthcoming as we would have failed to stand by our neighbours previously.
For the record I am not comfortable with it but one has to face reality. Negotiation with these people is impossible so military action is the only other option as the United Nations have already agreed.
Christmas is an ideal time, the media will get all roused up as usual but public attention will be very limited over the 2 weeks of Christmas and New Year holidays.
@DPJHodges: Hilary Benn doesn't just look like the leader of the opposition at the moment. He looks like the prime minister.
(snipped)
Simply astonishing.
I have just watched it. A fantastic speech. The ending was very good indeed. Passionate and right. That's a leader's speech. That is Labour - real Labour - at its very best. Good to see.
I watched it too and I disagreed with his speech in it's entirety, for this is a religious war not a political one. How can you have a someone on foreign affairs who knows nothing of foreign affairs ?
I didn't see it, but you can guarantee it was better than the rubbish Corbyn was spouting..
I'd love to see Corbyn reason with an IS terrorist with an AK47 pointed at him.
It would be interesting to see that too.
However I'm making a forecast that in a year's time Corbyn would be asking for resignations of ministers or even the PM. Over a war effort going pear shaped or a terrorist attack that would instantly undermine the PM's case of "bombing Syria once a day keeps the terrorists away" reasoning.
I hope Benn will be sacked long before then.
Tonight the government has put ISIS on the driving seat, and it's fate is linked to what ISIS does.
Rubbish - it is the right thing to do
And the cliche answer: "It is the stupid thing to do."
Never do things because they are right, do them because they work.
The PM declared it was the right thing to do, and now he's hostage to the fortunes and plans of ISIS that he can't control.
This whole vote was a symbolic one, as Britain does not posses the military capabilities to even put a dent on the armour of ISIS, you need a quarter of a million infantry troops to do the job not 16 planes. It simply shifted any blame for things going wrong from Corbyn's hands to Cameron's hands, he won the vote so the any blame rests on him and Benn from now on.
Benn made a good speech indeed. The challenges are far more complex than a simple speech as the attitudes in these tweets and the twaterrati have already shown.
If it was all down to speeches Corbyn wouldn't have a chance. Even Margaret Beckett gave a far better speech than Corbyn. Corbyn has the backing of a majority of members who voted, and unless a lot of them change their minds Corybn (or his anointed successor) are likely to keep hold of the reins.
The replacement could be nominated without members being consulted as Michael Howard was despite IDS winning 60% of Tory members votes, that is something Labour MPs will have to plot for
@patrickwintour: Corbyn team say majority of shadow cabinet voted with him
16/31......according to George Eaton.....
Majority is a majority.
Still, that would be better described as "half". Majority is used here to suggest more than just the bare minimum over 50%.
well it's 50%+1.
motion would carry...
If 100% supported the motion would the word "majority" still have been used. I would argue that "all" would have been used instead, despite majority being correct
Christmas is an ideal time, the media will get all roused up as usual but public attention will be very limited over the 2 weeks of Christmas and New Year holidays.
Would be the ideal time for Leicester to get rid of Jamie Vardy also.
Probably mentioned already but I'm just wondering whether a lot of Labour voters in central Oldham are going to sit on their hands tomorrow in protest at large numbers of shadow cabinet members and other Labour MPs voting for airstrikes in Syria.
Having gone to matt fordes interview/comedy shows when the guests were Tommy Robunson, David Lammy and Jim Murphy, I swerved last months and just found out the guest was...
In this grave hour, perhaps the most fateful in our history, I send to every household of my peoples, both at home and overseas, this message, spoken with the same depth of feeling for each one of you as if I were able to cross your threshold and speak to you myself.
For the second time in the lives of most of us, we are at war.
Over and over again, we have tried to find a peaceful way out of the differences between ourselves and those who are now our enemies; but it has been in vain.
We have been forced into a conflict, for we are called, with our allies, to meet the challenge of a principle which, if it were to prevail, would be fatal to any civilized order in the world.
It is a principle which permits a state, in the selfish pursuit of power, to disregard its treaties and its solemn pledges, which sanctions the use of force or threat of force against the sovereignty and independence of other states.
Such a principle, stripped of all disguise, is surely the mere primitive doctrine that might is right, and if this principle were established through the world, the freedom of our own country and of the whole British Commonwealth of nations would be in danger.
But far more than this, the peoples of the world would be kept in bondage of fear, and all hopes of settled peace and of the security, of justice and liberty, among nations, would be ended.
This is the ultimate issue which confronts us. For the sake of all that we ourselves hold dear, and of the world order and peace, it is unthinkable that we should refuse to meet the challenge.
It is to this high purpose that I now call my people at home, and my peoples across the seas, who will make our cause their own.
I ask them to stand calm and firm and united in this time of trial.
The task will be hard. There may be dark days ahead, and war can no longer be confined to the battlefield, but we can only do the right as we see the right, and reverently commit our cause to God. If one and all we keep resolutely faithful to it, ready for whatever service or sacrifice it may demand, then with God's help, we shall prevail.
Labour offer a free vote, which Cameron wins. Labour squeak Oldham No member of the shadow cabinet resigns Corbyn remains in post, and those members of the PLP not deselected by Momentum get hammered by the voters
Back in February 2013 when the LAPD were looking for Christopher Dorner, they fired 103 rounds at two women driving a pickup who were delivering newspapers.
"Parliament has just voted to launch airstrikes in Syria. I am reminded of the messages I have received in recent days from my constituents who have expressed deep concern for family in Syria. I also think of our armed forces whose lives will be put in danger.
The fact of the matter is, David Cameron’s case was not convincing, lacking either credible ground troops or a plan for a diplomatic settlement. Since he first made his case for airstrikes in Syria, last Thursday, opposition has mounted; in the country, in parliament and in the Labour Party.
It is impossible to avoid the conclusion that the Prime Minister realised opposition to his ill thought-out rush to war was growing – and he needed to hold the vote before it slipped from his hands. I have argued, and will continue to do so, that we should re-double our efforts to secure a diplomatic and political end to the conflict in Syria.
British service men and women will now be in harm’s way and the loss of innocent lives is sadly almost inevitable."
Benn made a good speech indeed. The challenges are far more complex than a simple speech as the attitudes in these tweets and the twaterrati have already shown.
If it was all down to speeches Corbyn wouldn't have a chance. Even Margaret Beckett gave a far better speech than Corbyn. Corbyn has the backing of a majority of members who voted, and unless a lot of them change their minds Corybn (or his anointed successor) are likely to keep hold of the reins.
The replacement could be nominated without members being consulted as Michael Howard was despite IDS winning 60% of Tory members votes, that is something Labour MPs will have to plot for
I am pleased to say you are quite wrong. If the entire PLP less 34 people had voted for the motion you might have been able to wave a fig leaf. But even then in reality Corbyn would not need to be nominated, but as you well know we have all been telling you this for weeks.
Comments
Christ how pathetic
It was also revealed by former CIA Director Mike Morell that the Obama administration didn't bomb the IS oil installations because they didn't want to cause environmental damage.
The oil is how IS gets much of its income. This is no way to fight a war.
http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/261283-ex-cia-chief-fear-for-environment-stays-us-hand-on-isis-oil-wells
So any replacement will need to ensure that those likely to attempt such a thing are not in a position to do so or even be a constant threat. That means expulsion from the party and perhaps a split as various factions choose sides.
Then there is finance and the Unions. We have been constantly reminded who started the party and Len says Jeremy's going nowhere. These two following tweets mentioned on a previous thread shows some of the massive problems that face the moderates in Labour.
@GraemeDemianyk: STW's John Rees warns Labour MPs supporting "corporatists and arms dealers" that "if wanted a quiet life should have become a monk or a nun"
@GraemeDemianyk: Rees tells Labour MPs who "sit on your fat arses" that if appear on "traitors' list" won't get penny of union money
Benn made a good speech indeed. The challenges are far more complex than a simple speech as the attitudes in these tweets and the twaterrati have already shown.
Homeland Security are definitely keen on this one, which you'd expect.
@AlastairMeeks I don't know about that. To a degree we all all live in our own world yes. However most of us aren't completely deluded, and can deal with people having opinions different to us. Those on twitter cannot deal with the fact someone may disagree with Corbyn on anything.
But this is a party now and a leader like no other. Labour are stuffed. Ruprecht has slipped his genital cuffs and been allowed to run riot.
Nice to have such a narrow mindset
Imagine if Corbyn had won the vote and ISIS was still there causing trouble, everyone would be blaming Corbyn.
Now everyone would be blaming Cameron for every misstep or failure on ISIS.
If Labour lose (not a prediction) is Corbyn vulnerable enough to a Benn putch?
@MrHarryCole: Labour source: "We thought going in closer to 40 is bad, closer to 60 is good and over 60 shows we can stand up to Momentum "
The by-election was triggered by the surprise and controversial resignation from the House of Commons of the sitting MP David Davis on 12 June 2008
» show previous quotes
Whistleblowing: my specialist subject. I could talk about this for hours. But it's late and I have appraisals for my staff to write so I owe it to them to do this properly.
And I'd like to hear Mr TimT's take.
I was unaware of Mr Woodford until this post, but now I'd like to shake his hand.
I try to be involved at a much earlier stage than whistleblowers. If a whistleblower is required, then my approach has already failed.
The culture of safety and excellence should preclude any need for whistleblowers as it is built around no-blame reporting of failure or near miss (O'Neill's opportunities to learn), continual risk assessment, close measurement and scrutiny of performance, analysis of variance from expectations to assess whether the variance is significant and hence necessitates change, unfettered two-way communications, peer and personal responsibility which naturally evolves into a group responsibility, and from this continual improvement. Thus, if such a system is in place, a Barings should never happen.
This system is based upon people going to work to do the right thing, rather than to cheat or steal. But, because of the measurement, scrutiny, and peer/group accountability aspects, it would tend to uncover criminal aspects sooner rather than later.
https://twitter.com/MattChorley/status/672190746586456065
Surge klaxon...
@rozgab: Just to emphasise: the Tories have overtaken Labour as the second most popular party in Scotland. Actual SCOTLAND. https://t.co/VlPNjlt5VP
Didn't @election_data announce his departure from Labour yesterday or the day before?
5:36PM
foxinsoxuk said:
» show previous quotes
Could you re-post the link to your article. I would like to read it when I get a bit of a lull.
http://www.nature.com/news/biological-research-rethink-biosafety-1.18747
The Americans have deployed 10 times that number for over a year in Syria with a result of zero.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CUrLsjfUcAA_zaH.jpg:large
This whole vote was a symbolic one, as Britain does not posses the military capabilities to even put a dent on the armour of ISIS, you need a quarter of a million infantry troops to do the job not 16 planes.
It simply shifted any blame for things going wrong from Corbyn's hands to Cameron's hands, he won the vote so the any blame rests on him and Benn from now on.
» show previous quotes
Thank you. I will. The Alcoa case is a good one. It chimes with something I say in my training - that we learn best from our mistakes, if we have the courage to admit to them.
If I had to choose 4 characteristics when hiring I'd go for character (moral character not "he's a laugh in the pub" character), curiosity ("why" is the most lethal word in the English language), courage and common-sense. I can almost feel an article coming on......
Great. Look forward to getting the email.
The police chief at the san bernadino shooting;
'No information at this point that it was a terrorist act.'
It's completely inappropriate to criticise his use of language, but still....
Was the left always bound to slump when Blair reached his sell-by date? Probably. So it might just be a coincidence that the left went into decline (in Britain) at around the time Twitter and Facebook started to grow.
What you say does seem plausible, though.
Can anything be read into the fact that the right has less of a position in social media? Why should that be? A small-c conservative aversion to new technology? Too busy eating babies?
I wonder how social media usage differs between Democrats and Republicans in the US. There it seems to be the right that is engaged in self-absorbed madness.
motion would carry...
As we are already bombing in Syria as part of coalition forces would said resignation be demanded as a result of Iraq bombing or Syria bombing and how would you know? Of course ISIS will probably say it's as a result of Syria and of course you would no doubt except that without question and would actually place ISIS in the driving seat yourself.
Of course we could do absolutely nothing and just wait for them to turn up here. It's inevitable really they will whatever decision was achieved tonight they are coming as we have already headed of several potential attacks to date. If we did nothing to day we would then be in an unenviable position of asking for help that wouldn't be forthcoming as we would have failed to stand by our neighbours previously.
For the record I am not comfortable with it but one has to face reality. Negotiation with these people is impossible so military action is the only other option as the United Nations have already agreed.
Not clear there is a connection to the mass shooting.
Update - an officer down.
Christmas is an ideal time, the media will get all roused up as usual but public attention will be very limited over the 2 weeks of Christmas and New Year holidays.
Inshallah Burnham.
I want to land
UKIP Oldham
Hilary Benn next leader
Corbyn out in 2020 !!
http://www.mattforde.com
Correction - suspect down. Cannot confirm connection to the mass shooting, but looks increasingly like it.
Update - Looks like 2 suspects in the shot up SUV, and one on the run.
https://twitter.com/AmandaWills/status/672192802852372482
For the second time in the lives of most of us, we are at war.
Over and over again, we have tried to find a peaceful way out of the differences between ourselves and those who are now our enemies; but it has been in vain.
We have been forced into a conflict, for we are called, with our allies, to meet the challenge of a principle which, if it were to prevail, would be fatal to any civilized order in the world.
It is a principle which permits a state, in the selfish pursuit of power, to disregard its treaties and its solemn pledges, which sanctions the use of force or threat of force against the sovereignty and independence of other states.
Such a principle, stripped of all disguise, is surely the mere primitive doctrine that might is right, and if this principle were established through the world, the freedom of our own country and of the whole British Commonwealth of nations would be in danger.
But far more than this, the peoples of the world would be kept in bondage of fear, and all hopes of settled peace and of the security, of justice and liberty, among nations, would be ended.
This is the ultimate issue which confronts us. For the sake of all that we ourselves hold dear, and of the world order and peace, it is unthinkable that we should refuse to meet the challenge.
It is to this high purpose that I now call my people at home, and my peoples across the seas, who will make our cause their own.
I ask them to stand calm and firm and united in this time of trial.
The task will be hard. There may be dark days ahead, and war can no longer be confined to the battlefield, but we can only do the right as we see the right, and reverently commit our cause to God. If one and all we keep resolutely faithful to it, ready for whatever service or sacrifice it may demand, then with God's help, we shall prevail.
May He bless and keep us all.
- King George VI, September 3rd, 1939
Burnham against
As you know nothing major happens when Mike's away.
http://www.itv.com/news/update/2015-12-02/miliband-and-burnham-to-oppose-airstrikes-on-is-in-syria/
The fact of the matter is, David Cameron’s case was not convincing, lacking either credible ground troops or a plan for a diplomatic settlement. Since he first made his case for airstrikes in Syria, last Thursday, opposition has mounted; in the country, in parliament and in the Labour Party.
It is impossible to avoid the conclusion that the Prime Minister realised opposition to his ill thought-out rush to war was growing – and he needed to hold the vote before it slipped from his hands. I have argued, and will continue to do so, that we should re-double our efforts to secure a diplomatic and political end to the conflict in Syria.
British service men and women will now be in harm’s way and the loss of innocent lives is sadly almost inevitable."
- Corbyn via facebook
@STJamesl: The nemesis of Miliband was Miliband.... https://t.co/TM12lFlZAh