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RaRaRasputin said:

Scott_P said:

@christopherhope: I am at the entrance to the Members' Lobby. One Tory MP tells me as many as 15 Labour MP waverers were swayed by Hilary Benn's speech.

It was a fantastic speech, but surely MPs should have the ability to form rational, coherent opinions and have enough courage in their convictions to not turn 180% at the last minute.

That they might still be wavering after so much debate does not mean they don't have convictions, it is a balanced issue after all. Sometimes an excellent summary is what is needed to push people over one line or another, knowing they can prevaricate no further.

Sunil_Prasannan said:

williamglenn said:

Scott_P said:

@paulwaugh: Labour peer Lord Rooker has really gone for it. (via @guardian liveblog)
https://t.co/hrpfUGPOjs https://t.co/Amcau3EHGd

Wow!

I don't know why people use the epithet "Trot" when Trotskyites are hated by the Hard Left! Leon himself was murdered on Stalin's orders in Mexico in 1940.
And this was a recent leaflet by the Communist Party of Great Britain:

http://www.cpgb-ml.org/index.php?secName=leaflets&subName=display&leafletId=89

In the lexicon of the communists, Trotskyism counts as "Left Deviationist" (pretending to be left in appearance, but in effect being allied with the reactionaries) in contrast with the "Right Deviationists" (the social democrats, revisionists, opportunists, and adherents of parliamentary cretinism) who are right in form as well as content.

@stellacreasy: Hilary benn’s speech has persuaded me that fascism must be defeated. I will hold public meeting on Sunday to discuss #syria

Betfred just rejected a bet from me on Benn at 6/1. Buggers.

£25 sitting in their account of mine now doing nothing at all.

gov't majority on amendment, 179.

[edit: oops, just a bit late!]

@LordAshcroft: You could have a good shadow cabinet from those who have voted tonight for action in Syria.

Scott_P said:

@stellacreasy: Hilary benn’s speech has persuaded me that fascism must be defeated. I will hold public meeting on Sunday to discuss #syria

Hopefully the nutters leave her alone.

SouthamObserver said:

Alan Johnson, Dan Jarvis, Pat McFadden, Margaret Beckett, Hillary Benn, my word Hillary Benn, and others - you did the Labour party proud today. You'll get nothing but abuse for it, but you spoke for the history of the party and you spoke for the only way that could ever possibly secure its future. If that's the final, dying cry of defiance before NickP and co destroy it all, that's some way to go. I am proud of you all and sad for what is to come.

Superb speech by Benn. Actually gave me hope for Labour.

BBC jury on airstrikes exactly tied, after an early initial 'cloud' exercise on a board, a few who did not have a clue and one who said 'he wanted peace and harmony throughout the world'

RobD said:

Sunil_Prasannan said:

179 - Blair's majority in 1997

Ah, I miss the days of large Tory majorities in the house.

Sgt. Sunil: Alright, sweethearts, you're a team and there's nothin' to worry about. We come here, and we're gonna conquer, and we're gonna kick some, is that understood? That's what we're gonna do, sweethearts, we are going to go and get some. All right, people, on the ready line! Are ya lean?

PB Tories: Yeah!

Sgt. Sunil: Are ya mean?

PB Tories: Yeah!

Sgt. Sunil: WHAT ARE YOU?

PB Tories: Lean and mean!

Sgt. Sunil: WHAT ARE YOU? RobD! TSE! Get on the ready line, PB Tories, get some today! Get on the ready line! Move it out! Move it out, goddammit! Get hot! One, two, three, four! Get out, get out, get out! Move it out, move it out, move it out! Move it out, move it out, move it out! One, two, three, four, five, six, seven! Aaarrrrr, absolutely badasses! Let's pack 'em in! Get in there!

TheWhiteRabbit said:

Piers ‏@Its_Piers 3m3 minutes ago
Hilary Benn should be de-selected. Tory in disguise. Entire Tory bench claps his speech. Disgusting excuse of a man.

Well that didn't take long...

I knew there would be some idiot on twitter who would think this. Some people are beyond help.

I watched 7 hours of the 10 hours of the debate, but I needed to have a nap for two hours. I missed Hilary Benn's speech because I was watching The Apprentice. Earlier, people were tweeting to say that Yvette Cooper's speech was also good, but I missed that because I needed to do a poo.

I have been agonising in indecision for several days but in the end, the debate persuaded me to support the motion. The most persuasive speeches were those who were in a minority on their own sides.

BBC News at 10 selected an audience and loaded it .... guess what it voted 50/50 which is out of line with opinion polls. Mark "leftie" Easton of the BBC said "guess what that is in line with public opinion".....

RaRaRasputin said:

Scott_P said:

@christopherhope: I am at the entrance to the Members' Lobby. One Tory MP tells me as many as 15 Labour MP waverers were swayed by Hilary Benn's speech.

It was a fantastic speech, but surely MPs should have the ability to form rational, coherent opinions and have enough courage in their convictions to not turn 180% at the last minute.

My personal theory is that they need an excuse.

Benn is hardly likely to have made them change their rational judgment, one would suspect, but a cracking speech provides a get-out clause. If it had been a dud, it would have been harder to bet one's career on the back of it.

Corbyn couldn't deselect 60 MPs without the risk of them all forming a new party (which would become the third largest in Parliament)

Daniel said:

Corbyn couldn't deselect 60 MPs without the risk of them all forming a new party (which would become the third largest in Parliament)

I can just hear the stamping of SNP feet right now.

Farron's speech wasn't too bad.

kle4 said:

RaRaRasputin said:

Scott_P said:

@christopherhope: I am at the entrance to the Members' Lobby. One Tory MP tells me as many as 15 Labour MP waverers were swayed by Hilary Benn's speech.

It was a fantastic speech, but surely MPs should have the ability to form rational, coherent opinions and have enough courage in their convictions to not turn 180% at the last minute.

That they might still be wavering after so much debate does not mean they don't have convictions, it is a balanced issue after all. Sometimes an excellent summary is what is needed to push people over one line or another, knowing they can prevaricate no further.

Benn's speech was passionate and brilliantly delivered, this cannot be denied. However, he did not add any additional information to the debate that has not already been out there for days. It was a plea to emotions, these decisions should not be made on emotions alone.

Sunil_Prasannan said:

RobD said:

Sunil_Prasannan said:

179 - Blair's majority in 1997

Ah, I miss the days of large Tory majorities in the house.

Sgt. Sunil: Alright, sweethearts, you're a team and there's nothin' to worry about. We come here, and we're gonna conquer, and we're gonna kick some, is that understood? That's what we're gonna do, sweethearts, we are going to go and get some. All right, people, on the ready line! Are ya lean?

snip..

I feel honoured and ashamed (due to the amount of time I spend on PB) to be name-checked

RaRaRasputin said:

kle4 said:

RaRaRasputin said:

Scott_P said:

@christopherhope: I am at the entrance to the Members' Lobby. One Tory MP tells me as many as 15 Labour MP waverers were swayed by Hilary Benn's speech.

It was a fantastic speech, but surely MPs should have the ability to form rational, coherent opinions and have enough courage in their convictions to not turn 180% at the last minute.

That they might still be wavering after so much debate does not mean they don't have convictions, it is a balanced issue after all. Sometimes an excellent summary is what is needed to push people over one line or another, knowing they can prevaricate no further.

Benn's speech was passionate and brilliantly delivered, this cannot be denied. However, he did not add any additional information to the debate that has not already been out there for days. It was a plea to emotions, these decisions should not be made on emotions alone.

As it was the last speech before Hammond summing up, clearly it won't be made on emotions alone - why should he repeat information others have already provided?

HYUFD said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

SouthamObserver said:

Alan Johnson, Dan Jarvis, Pat McFadden, Margaret Beckett, Hillary Benn, my word Hillary Benn, and others - you did the Labour party proud today. You'll get nothing but abuse for it, but you spoke for the history of the party and you spoke for the only way that could ever possibly secure its future. If that's the final, dying cry of defiance before NickP and co destroy it all, that's some way to go. I am proud of you all and sad for what is to come.

I hope this doesn't get your hopes up, but Benn's speech was the sort of speech that topples leaders.

Agreed, I listened to it on the radio and I thought he made the most persuasive case for strikes of anyone, including Cameron

Absolutely agree, a remarkable speech.

MikeK said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

Scott_P said:

@KateEMcCann: Andy Burnham first to make a beeline for Benn to congratulate him (even though they don't agree) many Labour MPs patting Benn on the back

Does Burnham vote No to please his current leader, or yes to please his next?

His brain is probably going to overheat trying to work out what the best move for him is.

What brain? Burnham is a cardboard cut-out.

How many times did Burnham flip flop during the debate?

Yep, people on Twitter already calling Benn a Tory.

67 LAB MP's voted with govt, apparently.

Richard_Tyndall said:

Funny that only just earlier today I had commented about what a great orator Foot was in an era of great orators and how we do not have his like in Parliament anymore. Very pleased to have been proved wrong by Hilary Benn tonight.

Richard, ICYMI, that John Curtice analysis that we were discussing earlier

Summary here

http://whatukthinks.org/eu/analysis/britain-divided-who-supports-and-who-opposes-eu-membership/

Detailed report here

http://whatukthinks.org/eu/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/Analysis-paper-1-Britain-divided.pdf

JohnLoony said:

I watched 7 hours of the 10 hours of the debate, but I needed to have a nap for two hours. I missed Hilary Benn's speech because I was watching The Apprentice. Earlier, people were tweeting to say that Yvette Cooper's speech was also good, but I missed that because I needed to do a poo.

I have been agonising in indecision for several days but in the end, the debate persuaded me to support the motion. The most persuasive speeches were those who were in a minority on their own sides.

Thankyou for that concise description of the reason you missed Mrs Balls speech

Incidentally the reaction to Benn's speech on Twitter isn't remotely similar to the reaction on here.

ayes 397, noes 223

174 majority

RaRaRasputin said:

kle4 said:

RaRaRasputin said:

Scott_P said:

@christopherhope: I am at the entrance to the Members' Lobby. One Tory MP tells me as many as 15 Labour MP waverers were swayed by Hilary Benn's speech.

It was a fantastic speech, but surely MPs should have the ability to form rational, coherent opinions and have enough courage in their convictions to not turn 180% at the last minute.

That they might still be wavering after so much debate does not mean they don't have convictions, it is a balanced issue after all. Sometimes an excellent summary is what is needed to push people over one line or another, knowing they can prevaricate no further.

Benn's speech was passionate and brilliantly delivered, this cannot be denied. However, he did not add any additional information to the debate that has not already been out there for days. It was a plea to emotions, these decisions should not be made on emotions alone.

When all the information has been argued back & forth for ages, that's what it comes down to in the end.

We usually label emotions as not-level-headed, but where a finely-balanced decision is required, our emotions are what our deepest instincts are telling us. The voice of conscience, perhaps.

Scott_P said:

AYE 397

NO 223

That's very good.

glw said:

Incidentally the reaction to Benn's speech on Twitter isn't remotely similar to the reaction on here.

Yes well labour supporters of air strikes are not going to say David Cameron is wonderful and I want to have his babies

And Labour have Emily Thornberry responding on the BBC...and this is why Labour still have huge issues.

glw said:

Incidentally the reaction to Benn's speech on Twitter isn't remotely similar to the reaction on here.

If I can be blunt, fuck twitter.

Pulpstar said:

I'm not even watching it, just happily laying off Benn on Betfair

The speech was excellent. But I'm not seeing a reason to back it at 2/1.

Casino_Royale said:

Scott_P said:

@DPJHodges: Hilary Benn doesn't just look like the leader of the opposition at the moment. He looks like the prime minister.

Can't help but agree with that. That was Churchillian.

And he turned around and personally addressed the Labour benches himself, appealing to them to support their sister socialist party, as if he really *was* the leader.

Simply astonishing.

I have just watched it. A fantastic speech. The ending was very good indeed. Passionate and right. That's a leader's speech. That is Labour - real Labour - at its very best. Good to see.

Just watched Lord Coe's testimony today. A VP of the IAAF for 8 years, and also initial chairman of the FIFA Ethics Committee. Add that to the Nike contract that he canceled too late. Given the state of FIFA and the IAAF he doesn't need to be in either one. He's a disgrace.

SimonStClare said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

Fooking Hell

@tnewtondunn: It appears Labour chief whip Rosie Winterton voted with the government. Very difficult for Corbyn #SyriaVote

Foreign Secretary and Chief Whip - Awkward…

Well, it was a free vote.

FrancisUrquhart said:

Thornberry says 57 Labour MPs.

About midway between the best and worst predictions of how many it seems.

If Cameron hadn't been such a knob over 100 Labour MPs might have voted in favour after Benn's speech.

GIN1138 said:

Is that a bigger majority for air strikes than expected?

Bang in the middle of expectations. So excellent speech by Benn or not, it hasn't resulted in a mass anti-Corbyn vote from Labour side.

Floater said:

HYUFD said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

SouthamObserver said:

Alan Johnson, Dan Jarvis, Pat McFadden, Margaret Beckett, Hillary Benn, my word Hillary Benn, and others - you did the Labour party proud today. You'll get nothing but abuse for it, but you spoke for the history of the party and you spoke for the only way that could ever possibly secure its future. If that's the final, dying cry of defiance before NickP and co destroy it all, that's some way to go. I am proud of you all and sad for what is to come.

I hope this doesn't get your hopes up, but Benn's speech was the sort of speech that topples leaders.

Agreed, I listened to it on the radio and I thought he made the most persuasive case for strikes of anyone, including Cameron

Absolutely agree, a remarkable speech.

Indeed, very strong

Rumour Harman voted in favour

Speedy said:

Time for Corbyn to clear the Augean Stables of his shadow cabinet.
Starting with the sacking of Benn.

I don't think he can sack him.

Benn might walk about, but he is now untouchable.

FrancisUrquhart said:

Thornberry says 57 Labour MPs.

So 25 out 57 where shadow cabinet members if the chattering is correct, I know of the notion keep your friends close but your enemies closer but this is ridiculous, Corbyn has managed to appoint half of all his sworn enemies in the shadow cabinet.

Corbyn should do a reshuffle and get rid of them, there are many more Labour MP's who are more loyal and would cause less trouble to replace the troublemakers.

AlastairMeeks said:

Just seen that speech. Who would have thought he had it in him? Cometh the hour, cometh the man.

Foot and Kinnock (and Benn Sr!) were accomplished orators. It didn't win them any elections.