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Concern about immigration rises sharply in the Sept Ipsos-MORI issues index pic.twitter.com/j3pfvAyDaU
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Who would have thunk it and 1st0
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Curse of the new thread!
Mr Wisemann (sic), I've spent some time in these places. They are full of Brits. Rich Brits. Millionaire and Billionaire Brits attracted by small government and low taxation.JWisemann said:
If they are paying more tax it is because they are earning more, often (not always) by sucking money out of the productive economy by paying people less and engaging in rentier activities.Sandpit said:
Will that be the same 0.1% that pay something like 25% of all income tax and a substantial proportion of VAT takings?JWisemann said:Of course relating to incomes, it isn't the top fifth vs bottom fifth that really counts, given stagnating incomes across all but the very privileged - it's the top 0.1% vs everyone else. I'd be interested to see those figures.
Are you in favour of the richest being made poorer and therefore paying less in tax than they do now - if they don't go to Monaco or Dubai or Singapore instead..?
If I'm making them poorer by making more of their earnings go to their employees and in taxes, then yes, more than happy. If they go to Monaco, Dubai or Singapore, I'm sure there'll be plenty of people here happy to take their jobs or business.
Surely what the UK government should be doing is encouraging these wealthy people, most of whom are self-made entrepreneurs, back to the UK and contributing to the Treasury..? This would allow for tax cuts for those on low incomes and increased welfare spending which I'm sure you think are worthy causes.
So how do we encourage internationally mobile companies and individuals to locate themselves in the UK, is it by increasing or reducing the rates of tax they would have to pay..?
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Afternoon all.
Immigration numbers to be expected in my opinion -, poor old Ms Schengen, did she die in vane?
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Doesn't bode well for those you are betting on UK staying in EU next year.0
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FPT and OT..curse of the new thread.,Next Monday I am having a boozy lunch with a friend..an entrepreneur.working class..Labour to the core aged 57..He has just sold his biz for 70 million quid..and he tells me he has taken every conceivable step to pay as little as possible to the taxman.... he also confessed he has never eaten a baby..0
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On topic, looking at the graph of the Economy as an issue, shows just how good a job one J.G. Brown did to hide the underlying economic picture from the public. It seems that very few noticed the state of the public finances until revenues dropped off the cliff in 2008.0
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Of course he did - it's what's known as human nature. No-one voluntarily writes a cheque to the taxman for any more than the minimum required.richardDodd said:...He has just sold his biz for 70 million quid..and he tells me he has taken every conceivable step to pay as little as possible to the taxman....
Thankfully most of the more egregious Hollywood Accounting-type scams have been shut down, but there will always be a game of cat and mouse between the Treasury and HMRC on one side, and well paid accountants and lawyers on the other.0 -
I've been saying this for a while now. Immigration is the biggest threat that exists to both the Conservative Party and the Remain campaign. The nature of FPTP means that people wrote off UKIP because they only won one seat, even though they went from 3% to 13% of the vote. The evidence from places like Scandinavia and France shows party that are more extreme and dysfunctional than UKIP can get into the 20s, so we should not write them off.
We have now committed to getting immigration to the tens of thousands and we absolutely must achieve that. Among Conservative voters, a large majority want us to start reducing numbers and feel quite strongly about it.
There still seems to be low hanging fruit such as the domestic worker visas, or the student dependents visa (which I'm told is about 25% Saudis), as well as bringing back the primary purpose rule. I also don't see why we should give out visas for arranged marriages or mail order brides: if you fall in love with someone abroad, that's one thing, but if you're going to marry a near stranger, there are plenty of people available in this country.
If necessary we may need to consider unilaterally suspending free movement of labour. If Germany is allowed to do it for Schengen, I don't see why we can't do something similar.0 -
US Presidential: The first signs of Spring in the first days of the Fall. Trump shows the first signs of dropping out of the race as his polling news continues to be less than rosy:
http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/trump-childish-fall-back-plan/story?id=34124354
http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/divisions-mark-trumps-popularity-bases-broader-carson-fiorina/story?id=341299620 -
We're proud of the fact that our family company is owned directly by the partners, without any complex offshore tax planning.Sandpit said:
Of course he did - it's what's known as human nature. No-one voluntarily writes a cheque to the taxman for any more than the minimum required.richardDodd said:...He has just sold his biz for 70 million quid..and he tells me he has taken every conceivable step to pay as little as possible to the taxman....
Simplicity and transparency are good things.0 -
On topic. I always find something wrong with the statement that 'concern about the economy drop to a 7.5 year low'. It seems to imply that voters will not be considering economic issues if the election were held now. Of course, that is utter bollocks - it most likely means that they are happy with there own economic circumstances right now, which means they are open to the message of "don't mess up the economy by handing it over to Corbyn"0
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@itvnews: Jeremy Corbyn tells @tombradby he would 'live with' decision to renew Trident http://t.co/V5H9LY8oaO http://t.co/LQL2u2J6El
Well, that's OK then0 -
@JPonpolitics: Inescapable logic: if Labour decides to retain Trident, Corbyn must un-say his words or resign. #Lab150
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Mr Charles, there are of course always exceptions that prove the rule.Charles said:
We're proud of the fact that our family company is owned directly by the partners, without any complex offshore tax planning.Sandpit said:
Of course he did - it's what's known as human nature. No-one voluntarily writes a cheque to the taxman for any more than the minimum required.richardDodd said:...He has just sold his biz for 70 million quid..and he tells me he has taken every conceivable step to pay as little as possible to the taxman....
Simplicity and transparency are good things.
Your simple and transparent family company structure is I'm sure a positive thing in the eyes of your customers and shareholders alike. If you had institutional shareholders they would probably take a different view!0 -
@bbclaurak: Now HIlary Benn, Falconer, and Eagle all disputing Corbyn's ruling out of nuclear0
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Who'd have believed it, concern over immigration at an all time high yet still some pbers tell the majority they're wrong.
Ah but I know a lovely Polish family, ah but our corner shop owner is lovely, ah but the NHS would collapse etc etc.
Mr JEO says below that the majority of tories have concerns, so do the majority of labour voters.0 -
What do you expect when you see all communities changing in 3 to 4 year's instead of 40 to 50 years and with immigration that is poor unskilled and as a reputation.0
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You can't blame TGOHF and ScottP for being confused by the Independent MP for Edinburgh West.malcolmg said:
She chose to step down while the enquiry is ongoingTGOHF said:The National has an interesting "take" on the SNP MP
http://www.thenational.scot/news/mp-withdraws-from-snp-whip-while-police-launch-an-investigation-into-property-firms-mortgage-payment-irregularities.8184
"Michelle Thomson, the MP for Edinburgh West, will now sit as an independent. She said she will co-operate fully with Police Scotland’s inquiry.
It is understood the initial police investigations will not involve Thomson herself."
So why is she losing the whip ?
A politician doing the honourable thing is an alien concept to these zoomers.0 -
This is the open goal that somehow Sarah Montague managed to miss this morning. All very well saying "everyone knows our position" the ineluctable logic is that if Lab Party policy is to retain Trident (which it is), Jezza should go.Scott_P said:@JPonpolitics: Inescapable logic: if Labour decides to retain Trident, Corbyn must un-say his words or resign. #Lab15
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I am sure that Dave will be keen to timetable a vote in the Commons on the matter at the earliest possible opportunity. A Mr Woodcock from Barrow might be very keen to see Labour's position on the matter put to a vote.Scott_P said:@itvnews: Jeremy Corbyn tells @tombradby he would 'live with' decision to renew Trident http://t.co/V5H9LY8oaO http://t.co/LQL2u2J6El
Well, that's OK then0 -
Regulators, customers, staff, partners and the wider family all have views that we take into account - and in that order...Sandpit said:
Mr Charles, there are of course always exceptions that prove the rule.Charles said:
We're proud of the fact that our family company is owned directly by the partners, without any complex offshore tax planning.Sandpit said:
Of course he did - it's what's known as human nature. No-one voluntarily writes a cheque to the taxman for any more than the minimum required.richardDodd said:...He has just sold his biz for 70 million quid..and he tells me he has taken every conceivable step to pay as little as possible to the taxman....
Simplicity and transparency are good things.
Your simple and transparent family company structure is I'm sure a positive thing in the eyes of your customers and shareholders alike. If you had institutional shareholders they would probably take a different view!0 -
''Mr JEO says below that the majority of tories have concerns, so do the majority of labour voters. ''
Then why isn't UKIP benefiting? Farage sure is a shower of sh8t.0 -
My favourite stat from that polling via Harry Evans of Ipsos Mori
Where is concern about immigration coming from? Not really from the places with the most immigrants..0 -
@patrickwintour: Corbyn's personal honesty today has unilaterally changed Labour defence policy. No conference motion no policy forum no NEC statement.0
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How can they dispute it? Surely it is the PMs right to decide on issues like that. The cabinet can vote on renewing Trident but they can't vote to force the PM to press the button.Scott_P said:@bbclaurak: Now HIlary Benn, Falconer, and Eagle all disputing Corbyn's ruling out of nuclear
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The Party position is to maintain a nuclear deterrent. The leader can't unilaterally decide to disarmJonathanD said:How can they dispute it? Surely it is the PMs right to decide on issues like that. The cabinet can vote on renewing Trident but they can't vote to force the PM to press the button.
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Can we put this to bed please, Ukip is benefitting to the tune of 4m votes albeit distributed in such a way that wasn't reflected in seats.taffys said:''Mr JEO says below that the majority of tories have concerns, so do the majority of labour voters. ''
Then why isn't UKIP benefiting? Farage sure is a shower of sh8t.
Your point about Farage is another altogether, he may well be what you describe but Ukip have grown and will continue to.
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@bbclaurak: Burnham says he d 'find it difficult' to stay in shadow cabinet if party decides to scrap Trident0
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From the places next door where the numbers aren't effected by first and second generation immigrants.TheScreamingEagles said:My favourite stat from that polling via Harry Evans of Ipsos Mori
Where is concern about immigration coming from? Not really from the places with the most immigrants..0 -
The Party position is to maintain a nuclear deterrent. The leader can't unilaterally decide to disarm
It seems to me that blowing a fortune on a nuclear deterrent and then promising never to use it are what is known as 'the worst of all worlds'.
We may as well save the money.0 -
There's nothing confusing about what happened. She resigned the whip, probably with prompting which is fair enough, and that automatically suspended her as an SNP member under SNP rules.Scott_P said:
She was "stepped down" by the party machine. They forgot to tell her about it until later...Dair said:A politician doing the honourable thing is an alien concept to these zoomers.
She may have been aware of this effect when she resigned the whip but that is the effect none the less. Resigning the whip was the right thing to do, allowing a proper investigation to take place.
It is a very good contrast to Alistair Carmichael who continues to cling to his position and embarrass his party.0 -
I'd say that 46% in urban areas suggests a very high level of concern, wouldn't you?TheScreamingEagles said:My favourite stat from that polling via Harry Evans of Ipsos Mori
Where is concern about immigration coming from? Not really from the places with the most immigrants..
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He might (or the NEC he now controls might) decide that such an important issue should be put to a postal ballot of all members and supporters.Scott_P said:
The Party position is to maintain a nuclear deterrent. The leader can't unilaterally decide to disarmJonathanD said:How can they dispute it? Surely it is the PMs right to decide on issues like that. The cabinet can vote on renewing Trident but they can't vote to force the PM to press the button.
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Corbyn has though. 'No conference motion no policy forum no NEC statement.' as you quoted down thread.Scott_P said:
The Party position is to maintain a nuclear deterrent. The leader can't unilaterally decide to disarmJonathanD said:How can they dispute it? Surely it is the PMs right to decide on issues like that. The cabinet can vote on renewing Trident but they can't vote to force the PM to press the button.
Democracy? Pah, who needs it.0 -
Absolutely, and good on you! The first two of those groups listed are certainly over time becoming more aware of and less tolerant of the more unethical - if not illegal - tax minimising activities that have been going on in the recent past.Charles said:
Regulators, customers, staff, partners and the wider family all have views that we take into account - and in that order...Sandpit said:
Mr Charles, there are of course always exceptions that prove the rule.Charles said:
We're proud of the fact that our family company is owned directly by the partners, without any complex offshore tax planning.Sandpit said:
Of course he did - it's what's known as human nature. No-one voluntarily writes a cheque to the taxman for any more than the minimum required.richardDodd said:...He has just sold his biz for 70 million quid..and he tells me he has taken every conceivable step to pay as little as possible to the taxman....
Simplicity and transparency are good things.
Your simple and transparent family company structure is I'm sure a positive thing in the eyes of your customers and shareholders alike. If you had institutional shareholders they would probably take a different view!0 -
@JasonGroves1: Andy Burnham confirms he will quit shadow cabinet if Corbyn forces Labour to dump Trident #wato0
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Laughable stuff. Burnham hasn't got the balls to walk out, hence the wishy washy 'find it difficult' line, rather than one of 'leave'.Scott_P said:@bbclaurak: Burnham says he d 'find it difficult' to stay in shadow cabinet if party decides to scrap Trident
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Reek, Reek, it rhymes with "meek"...Scott_P said:@bbclaurak: Burnham says he d 'find it difficult' to stay in shadow cabinet if party decides to scrap Trident
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Come on Dave, call a vote on Trident for the week after next. You know you want to...watford30 said:
Laughable stuff. Burnham hasn't got the balls to walk out, hence the wishy washy 'find it difficult' line, rather than one of 'leave'.Scott_P said:@bbclaurak: Burnham says he d 'find it difficult' to stay in shadow cabinet if party decides to scrap Trident
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Sebastian Payne @SebastianEPayne 1h1 hour ago
Farage tells @PoliticoRyan: “Now we’ve got Jeremy Corbyn...I’m mainstream whether we like it or not” http://www.politico.eu/article/farage-ukip-timmermans-eu-grip/ …0 -
I find this a rather daft comment.TheScreamingEagles said:My favourite stat from that polling via Harry Evans of Ipsos Mori
Where is concern about immigration coming from? Not really from the places with the most immigrants..
London has the lowest levels of concern about immigration at around 35% of those questioned. But given that, according to the 2011 census, 37% of the population of London were born outside the UK and only 45% of the population are white British it is hardly surprising that there is less concern about immigration - because so many of those questioned are either immigrants or the children of immigrants. There is no way to say for sure but on those figures the degree of concern amongst the white British population could be as high as 75%. You just don't know.
This is not to say anything about the rights and wrongs of immigration - just that Harry Evans' and your analysis of the numbers is wrongheaded and illogical.0 -
Distressing how little self-respect some politicians have that they would rather see themselves humiliated as they contort every which way in attempt to stay in a 'position of power', than simply leave if they have to take up a position they deeply disagree with.watford30 said:
Laughable stuff. Burnham hasn't got the balls to walk out, hence the wishy washy 'find it difficult' line, rather than one of 'leave'.Scott_P said:@bbclaurak: Burnham says he d 'find it difficult' to stay in shadow cabinet if party decides to scrap Trident
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Jezza has apparently said today that immigration is 'not a problem'
That's a poster for UKIP in the North, right there.0 -
Yes and No.Sean_F said:
I'd say that 46% in urban areas suggests a very high level of concern, wouldn't you?TheScreamingEagles said:My favourite stat from that polling via Harry Evans of Ipsos Mori
Where is concern about immigration coming from? Not really from the places with the most immigrants..
I've been doing some reading up/research for a future PB thread.
The BNP did well at their peak not in areas with high levels of immigrations but in the areas near to it.**
Add in the voters perceptions of things like how many immigrants being in this country being way off. I think Ipsos Mori found that the public thought 1 in 4 of the population was made up of immigrants when the reality is half that.
You could argue that people's perceptions are wrong on this topic. A bit more reality that might help calm the waters.
**I'm not accusing people who are concerned about immigration are racists, far from it before anyone has an aneurysm.0 -
The deterrent might still work if the chain of command doesn't, which it probably doesn't.taffys said:The Party position is to maintain a nuclear deterrent. The leader can't unilaterally decide to disarm
It seems to me that blowing a fortune on a nuclear deterrent and then promising never to use it are what is known as 'the worst of all worlds'.
We may as well save the money.0 -
There's a long term polling study coming out in the next few months about what White British people think about immigration, so we'll have a definitive answer either way.Richard_Tyndall said:
I find this a rather daft comment.TheScreamingEagles said:My favourite stat from that polling via Harry Evans of Ipsos Mori
Where is concern about immigration coming from? Not really from the places with the most immigrants..
London has the lowest levels of concern about immigration at around 35% of those questioned. But given that, according to the 2011 census, 37% of the population of London were born outside the UK and only 45% of the population are white British it is hardly surprising that there is less concern about immigration - because so many of those questioned are either immigrants or the children of immigrants. There is no way to say for sure but on those figures the degree of concern amongst the white British population could be as high as 75%. You just don't know.
This is not to say anything about the rights and wrongs of immigration - just that Harry Evans' and your analysis of the numbers is wrongheaded and illogical.
Edit will also have the views of first/second generation non white immigrants to this country too.0 -
Nice smearing.TheScreamingEagles said:
Yes and No.Sean_F said:
I'd say that 46% in urban areas suggests a very high level of concern, wouldn't you?TheScreamingEagles said:My favourite stat from that polling via Harry Evans of Ipsos Mori
Where is concern about immigration coming from? Not really from the places with the most immigrants..
I've been doing some reading up/research for a future PB thread.
The BNP did well at their peak not in areas with high levels of immigrations but in the areas near to it.**
Add in the voters perceptions of things like how many immigrants being in this country being way off. I think Ipsos Mori found that the public thought 1 in 4 of the population was made up of immigrants when the reality is half that.
You could argue that people's perceptions are wrong on this topic. A bit more reality that might help calm the waters.
**I'm not accusing people who are concerned about immigration are racists, far from it before anyone has an aneurysm.0 -
taffys said:
Jezza has apparently said today that immigration is 'not a problem'
That's a poster for UKIP in the North, right there.
Well Miliband lost Scotland for Labour, so Corbyn needs another area of the country to lose.
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Dair - can you explain where the National got this nugget from ?Dair said:
There's nothing confusing about what happened. She resigned the whip, probably with prompting which is fair enough, and that automatically suspended her as an SNP member under SNP rules.Scott_P said:
She was "stepped down" by the party machine. They forgot to tell her about it until later...Dair said:A politician doing the honourable thing is an alien concept to these zoomers.
She may have been aware of this effect when she resigned the whip but that is the effect none the less. Resigning the whip was the right thing to do, allowing a proper investigation to take place.
It is a very good contrast to Alistair Carmichael who continues to cling to his position and embarrass his party.
"It is understood the initial police investigations will not involve Thomson herself."
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I'd be interested to see the results of a poll where people were questioned about population growth. Are people concerned with numbers or is it something else.
My concern is numbers, the infrastructure required to support growth at its current levels is unsustainable: schools, hospitals, roads, utilities, water - where does it end according to those waving the 600k pa in?0 -
Jezza is apparently going to tour Kippy areas and persuade them to vote Labour - I think that's going to be a very tough crowd.taffys said:
Jezza has apparently said today that immigration is 'not a problem'
That's a poster for UKIP in the North, right there.0 -
Plato_Says said:
Jezza is apparently going to tour Kippy areas and persuade them to vote Labour - I think that's going to be a very tough crowd.
taffys said:Jezza has apparently said today that immigration is 'not a problem'
That's a poster for UKIP in the North, right there.
The problem is, the only people who will be listening with be the Corbynites, who already think its a good idea.0 -
And a sigh from every labour canvasser outside of London.taffys said:Jezza has apparently said today that immigration is 'not a problem'
That's a poster for UKIP in the North, right there.
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12.5% of the country o_O !TheScreamingEagles said:
Yes and No.Sean_F said:
I'd say that 46% in urban areas suggests a very high level of concern, wouldn't you?TheScreamingEagles said:My favourite stat from that polling via Harry Evans of Ipsos Mori
Where is concern about immigration coming from? Not really from the places with the most immigrants..
I've been doing some reading up/research for a future PB thread.
The BNP did well at their peak not in areas with high levels of immigrations but in the areas near to it.**
Add in the voters perceptions of things like how many immigrants being in this country being way off. I think Ipsos Mori found that the public thought 1 in 4 of the population was made up of immigrants when the reality is half that.
You could argue that people's perceptions are wrong on this topic. A bit more reality that might help calm the waters.
**I'm not accusing people who are concerned about immigration are racists, far from it before anyone has an aneurysm.
Blimey.0 -
Pah...don't talk logically....blackburn63 said:I'd be interested to see the results of a poll where people were questioned about population growth. Are people concerned with numbers or is it something else.
My concern is numbers, the infrastructure required to support growth at its current levels is unsustainable: schools, hospitals, roads, utilities, water - where does it end according to those waving the 600k pa in?0 -
The BBC said that this morning I think.TGOHF said:
Dair - can you explain where the National got this nugget from ?Dair said:
There's nothing confusing about what happened. She resigned the whip, probably with prompting which is fair enough, and that automatically suspended her as an SNP member under SNP rules.Scott_P said:
She was "stepped down" by the party machine. They forgot to tell her about it until later...Dair said:A politician doing the honourable thing is an alien concept to these zoomers.
She may have been aware of this effect when she resigned the whip but that is the effect none the less. Resigning the whip was the right thing to do, allowing a proper investigation to take place.
It is a very good contrast to Alistair Carmichael who continues to cling to his position and embarrass his party.
"It is understood the initial police investigations will not involve Thomson herself."0 -
I would imagine that this latest jump in the concern over immigration is caused by the Europe-wide refugee/migrant crisis and also by the scenes in Calais.
If that is so, it is a very different concern to that over the levels of legal immigration from other EU states under the freedom of movement principle. That in turn is very different to the concern over the rapid change which many urban districts have seen as a result of the influx of people of different (non-European) cultures over the fifteen or so years, and the related issue of multiculturalism.
From the point of view both of government policy response and the political response of the various political parties, it would be a mistake to ignore these distinctions. For example, Andy Burnham's comments today about cheap labour undermining job security and wages (which actually probably isn't true, but leave that aside) really only relates to legal EU immigration.
My guess is that the EU migrant crisis - or at least the intensive media coverage of it in the UK - will ease off in coming months. The immigration issue will of course remain contentious, and rightly so, but I expect it to subside in importance as we move into winter.0 -
TSE: There's a long term polling study coming out in the next few months about what White British people think about immigration, so we'll have a definitive answer either way.
Oh come on you're better than that. Are these white British people doctors and architects in Tunbridge Wells or living in Moss Side? You talk about them as if they're some sort of persecuted minority.0 -
Agree entirely. As long as they are happy to abide by UK laws and customs (I don't mean Morris Dancing but just what we consider reasonable behaviour) then I don't care where people come from. It is a basic question of numbers, services and particularly housing as I am not in favour of concreting over the countryside. I would quite happily export a couple of million chavs in exchange for hard working immigrants.blackburn63 said:I'd be interested to see the results of a poll where people were questioned about population growth. Are people concerned with numbers or is it something else.
My concern is numbers, the infrastructure required to support growth at its current levels is unsustainable: schools, hospitals, roads, utilities, water - where does it end according to those waving the 600k pa in?0 -
Not here they don't - she looks forward to being cleared...TheWhiteRabbit said:
The BBC said that this morning I think.TGOHF said:
Dair - can you explain where the National got this nugget from ?Dair said:
There's nothing confusing about what happened. She resigned the whip, probably with prompting which is fair enough, and that automatically suspended her as an SNP member under SNP rules.Scott_P said:
She was "stepped down" by the party machine. They forgot to tell her about it until later...Dair said:A politician doing the honourable thing is an alien concept to these zoomers.
She may have been aware of this effect when she resigned the whip but that is the effect none the less. Resigning the whip was the right thing to do, allowing a proper investigation to take place.
It is a very good contrast to Alistair Carmichael who continues to cling to his position and embarrass his party.
"It is understood the initial police investigations will not involve Thomson herself."
"http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-34395392"
Analysis by Glenn Campbell, BBC Scotland political correspondent
Yet just one minute earlier, at 18:21, a statement issued by Michelle Thomson's personal media adviser made no mention of her stepping down from SNP duties.
It reads:
"I am aware of the police investigation and will cooperate fully if asked to do so. I have always acted within the law and look forward to being cleared of any suggestion of wrongdoing. I will be making no further comment on this matter."
Makes you wonder whether she really did jump or was she pushed?"0 -
The warnings were coming in from 2003 from the EU the IMF and others. Brown waved them away as of course he knew best. In fact Lilley gave them the first warning in 1997.Sandpit said:
Of course he did - it's what's known as human nature. No-one voluntarily writes a cheque to the taxman for any more than the minimum required.richardDodd said:...He has just sold his biz for 70 million quid..and he tells me he has taken every conceivable step to pay as little as possible to the taxman....
Thankfully most of the more egregious Hollywood Accounting-type scams have been shut down, but there will always be a game of cat and mouse between the Treasury and HMRC on one side, and well paid accountants and lawyers on the other.
That's the one thing a labour can never argue against as these were a matter or record. Instead they blamed everyone but refuse to take any responsibility themselves. It's not the first time they have utterly destroyed the economy leaving if for others to rebuild as they carped from the sidelines.
I hope Corbyn buries Labour forever and really deep as I don't want my children to have to suffer these lunatics as well..0 -
But wouldn't that be down to the fact the BNP support would be almost exclusively found amongst White British voters?TheScreamingEagles said:
Yes and No.Sean_F said:
I'd say that 46% in urban areas suggests a very high level of concern, wouldn't you?TheScreamingEagles said:My favourite stat from that polling via Harry Evans of Ipsos Mori
Where is concern about immigration coming from? Not really from the places with the most immigrants..
I've been doing some reading up/research for a future PB thread.
The BNP did well at their peak not in areas with high levels of immigrations but in the areas near to it.**
Add in the voters perceptions of things like how many immigrants being in this country being way off. I think Ipsos Mori found that the public thought 1 in 4 of the population was made up of immigrants when the reality is half that.
You could argue that people's perceptions are wrong on this topic. A bit more reality that might help calm the waters.
**I'm not accusing people who are concerned about immigration are racists, far from it before anyone has an aneurysm.
If you have two neighbouring wards in an urban area where one is 40% white British, and the other is 80% white British, and the BNP wins 50% of the white British vote in both, the BNP's vote share will be 20% in the former, and 40% in the latter, but among the pool of voters that would consider voting BNP, the level of support will be the same.
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Is the Prime Minister going to clarify which cities he would be prepared to obliterate using Trident? I see from a BBC graphic that North Korea is out of range if the subs are in the Atlantic.0
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It covers all regions/demographics/education level/income etcblackburn63 said:TSE: There's a long term polling study coming out in the next few months about what White British people think about immigration, so we'll have a definitive answer either way.
Oh come on you're better than that. Are these white British people doctors and architects in Tunbridge Wells or living in Moss Side? You talk about them as if they're some sort of persecuted minority.
Is quite a chunky sample size of 8,000 I think.0 -
The BNP vote only reflects the attitudes of the most extreme <5% of the population. You can't really extrapolate from that how sentiments move among the 56% who think immigration is a top three concern.TheScreamingEagles said:
Yes and No.Sean_F said:
I'd say that 46% in urban areas suggests a very high level of concern, wouldn't you?TheScreamingEagles said:My favourite stat from that polling via Harry Evans of Ipsos Mori
Where is concern about immigration coming from? Not really from the places with the most immigrants..
I've been doing some reading up/research for a future PB thread.
The BNP did well at their peak not in areas with high levels of immigrations but in the areas near to it.**
Add in the voters perceptions of things like how many immigrants being in this country being way off. I think Ipsos Mori found that the public thought 1 in 4 of the population was made up of immigrants when the reality is half that.
You could argue that people's perceptions are wrong on this topic. A bit more reality that might help calm the waters.
**I'm not accusing people who are concerned about immigration are racists, far from it before anyone has an aneurysm.
As for the estimation of the share of immigrants in the country, I find it's an irrelevant number. My estimation of how many homes there are available in the country is irrelevant to how big a problem I think a housing shortage is, because my understanding of the housing shortage is based on my personal experiences of it, not based on an abstract number.
It's the same with immigration. For example, imagine Person A thinks there's been too much cultural change in the country and estimates 25% of the population are immigrants. He currently thinks that 25% immigration causes excessive change and thinks current immigration levels are a problem. If you inform him that it's only 12% of the population, that just means he thinks 12% immigration causes excessive change and makes current immigration levels a problem.0 -
Who is doing the polling study?TheScreamingEagles said:
It covers all regions/demographics/education level/income etcblackburn63 said:TSE: There's a long term polling study coming out in the next few months about what White British people think about immigration, so we'll have a definitive answer either way.
Oh come on you're better than that. Are these white British people doctors and architects in Tunbridge Wells or living in Moss Side? You talk about them as if they're some sort of persecuted minority.
Is quite a chunky sample size of 8,000 I think.0 -
Have to disagree, we are suffering from immigration fatigue, most people are unable to differentiate between asylum seekers, economic migrants, refugees, EU citizens, overseas students, its a mess to the average person in the street.Richard_Nabavi said:I would imagine that this latest jump in the concern over immigration is caused by the Europe-wide refugee/migrant crisis and also by the scenes in Calais.
If that is so, it is a very different concern to that over the levels of legal immigration from other EU states under the freedom of movement principle. That in turn is very different to the concern over the rapid change which many urban districts have seen as a result of the influx of people of different (non-European) cultures over the fifteen or so years, and the related issue of multiculturalism.
From the point of view both of government policy response and the political response of the various political parties, it would be a mistake to ignore these distinctions. For example, Andy Burnham's comments today about cheap labour undermining job security and wages (which actually probably isn't true, but leave that aside) really only relates to legal EU immigration.
My guess is that the EU migrant crisis - or at least the intensive media coverage of it in the UK - will ease off in coming months. The immigration issue will of course remain contentious, and rightly so, but I expect it to subside in importance as we move into winter.
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I wonder if the immigration debate is going to change a little.
British wages are starting to creep up, ONS figures today show pay rising at the biggest annual rate since 2007. (4.7%). Real disposable pay is also up.
Britons have enjoyed the benefits of cheap labour for so long, they may be taking them for granted.
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@PSbook: Firm owned by SNP MP boasted about selling Scottish social housing to English investors http://t.co/Yzr9uWPPAN http://t.co/nNfqiWd5C30
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A redbrick university using a BPC pollster.JEO said:
Who is doing the polling study?TheScreamingEagles said:
It covers all regions/demographics/education level/income etcblackburn63 said:TSE: There's a long term polling study coming out in the next few months about what White British people think about immigration, so we'll have a definitive answer either way.
Oh come on you're better than that. Are these white British people doctors and architects in Tunbridge Wells or living in Moss Side? You talk about them as if they're some sort of persecuted minority.
Is quite a chunky sample size of 8,000 I think.0 -
The whole point is not to tell anyone what you would do. A subtlety beyond the new, kinder politics of Corbyn.SandyRentool said:Is the Prime Minister going to clarify which cities he would be prepared to obliterate using Trident? I see from a BBC graphic that North Korea is out of range if the subs are in the Atlantic.
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I mainly care about skill levels. We can have the hardest working roadsweepers in the world, they're still going to be a fiscal drain on the treasury.Richard_Tyndall said:
Agree entirely. As long as they are happy to abide by UK laws and customs (I don't mean Morris Dancing but just what we consider reasonable behaviour) then I don't care where people come from. It is a basic question of numbers, services and particularly housing as I am not in favour of concreting over the countryside. I would quite happily export a couple of million chavs in exchange for hard working immigrants.blackburn63 said:I'd be interested to see the results of a poll where people were questioned about population growth. Are people concerned with numbers or is it something else.
My concern is numbers, the infrastructure required to support growth at its current levels is unsustainable: schools, hospitals, roads, utilities, water - where does it end according to those waving the 600k pa in?
Although recently I'm becoming more sympathetic to the cultural arguments. I don't want a hundreds of thousands of angry young men from the Middle East coming here.0 -
Should be reflected in inflation figures increasing... That would be very good for the economy really.taffys said:I wonder if the immigration debate is going to change a little.
British wages are starting to creep up, ONS figures today show pay rising at the biggest annual rate since 2007. (4.7%). Real disposable pay is also up.
Britons have enjoyed the benefits of cheap labour for so long, they may be taking them for granted.0 -
Its a poll that will prove nothing for reasons I've pointed out. White British (still the majority last time I looked) will be split in the same way they are with political parties, they're not a body of people who think the same way about virtually anything. Its a ridiculous, prejudiced, loaded poll, I'm interested to know who commissioned it.TheScreamingEagles said:
It covers all regions/demographics/education level/income etcblackburn63 said:TSE: There's a long term polling study coming out in the next few months about what White British people think about immigration, so we'll have a definitive answer either way.
Oh come on you're better than that. Are these white British people doctors and architects in Tunbridge Wells or living in Moss Side? You talk about them as if they're some sort of persecuted minority.
Is quite a chunky sample size of 8,000 I think.
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I think it getting a complex argument, I don't think it a fault line based on colour/ethnicity any more.Sean_F said:
But wouldn't that be down to the fact the BNP support would be almost exclusively found amongst White British voters?TheScreamingEagles said:
Yes and No.Sean_F said:
I'd say that 46% in urban areas suggests a very high level of concern, wouldn't you?TheScreamingEagles said:My favourite stat from that polling via Harry Evans of Ipsos Mori
Where is concern about immigration coming from? Not really from the places with the most immigrants..
I've been doing some reading up/research for a future PB thread.
The BNP did well at their peak not in areas with high levels of immigrations but in the areas near to it.**
Add in the voters perceptions of things like how many immigrants being in this country being way off. I think Ipsos Mori found that the public thought 1 in 4 of the population was made up of immigrants when the reality is half that.
You could argue that people's perceptions are wrong on this topic. A bit more reality that might help calm the waters.
**I'm not accusing people who are concerned about immigration are racists, far from it before anyone has an aneurysm.
If you have two neighbouring wards in an urban area where one is 40% white British, and the other is 80% white British, and the BNP wins 50% of the white British vote in both, the BNP's vote share will be 20% in the former, and 40% in the latter, but among the pool of voters that would consider voting BNP, the level of support will be the same.
My Mum's biggest complaint for the past few years about Sheffield.
There's too many bloody immigrants, especially those Roma ones.0 -
Just checking the council house building stats. The highest year of council house building was in 1954 just short of 250,000. In the seventies it oscillated between 150,000 and 80,000 a year.blackburn63 said:I'd be interested to see the results of a poll where people were questioned about population growth. Are people concerned with numbers or is it something else.
My concern is numbers, the infrastructure required to support growth at its current levels is unsustainable: schools, hospitals, roads, utilities, water - where does it end according to those waving the 600k pa in?
With a population growth of 500,000 this year, and an average of 2.3 people per household, that's 215,000 new homes just to stand still. 115,000 total new homes were completed this year, a six year high.
Thats a shortfall of 100,000. Again, just to stand still, to not ease in any way any of the pressures on infrastructure or in anyway allow the demand to creep up with the supply, or enable anyone currently locked out of buying a home.0 -
Your concerns are correct -blackburn63 said:I'd be interested to see the results of a poll where people were questioned about population growth. Are people concerned with numbers or is it something else.
My concern is numbers, the infrastructure required to support growth at its current levels is unsustainable: schools, hospitals, roads, utilities, water - where does it end according to those waving the 600k pa in?
Influx of 'new-to-English' pupils is biggest challenge for Bradford's schools
From the article -
BECOMING swamped with pupils who do not speak English is "one of the biggest challenges" facing Bradford's schools, with numbers likely to soar further, a meeting of school leaders has heard.
And a union leader has warned that "millions of pounds" of extra Government funding was needed to deal with the situation
http://www.thetelegraphandargus.co.uk/news/13780600.Influx_of__new_to_English__pupils_is_biggest_challenge_for_Bradford_s_schools/
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Which ones? If it's Peter Kellner doing a study for the University of Liverpool, then it could be quite left wing!TheScreamingEagles said:
A redbrick university using a BPC pollster.JEO said:
Who is doing the polling study?TheScreamingEagles said:
It covers all regions/demographics/education level/income etcblackburn63 said:TSE: There's a long term polling study coming out in the next few months about what White British people think about immigration, so we'll have a definitive answer either way.
Oh come on you're better than that. Are these white British people doctors and architects in Tunbridge Wells or living in Moss Side? You talk about them as if they're some sort of persecuted minority.
Is quite a chunky sample size of 8,000 I think.0 -
I agree, I perhaps didn't make myself quite clear. My point on the politics was more that if you seem to address just one bit of the mess (for example legal EU immigration), you'll still have the political problem. Some of the problem is in fact theoretical at the moment - with the exception of the Calais disruption of the Channel Tunnel, the UK hasn't been significantly impacted (for the moment at least) by the EU migrant crisis, but nonetheless it seems to be having a large political impact.blackburn63 said:Have to disagree, we are suffering from immigration fatigue, most people are unable to differentiate between asylum seekers, economic migrants, refugees, EU citizens, overseas students, its a mess to the average person in the street.
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I love how you write off polls before they've even been published.blackburn63 said:
Its a poll that will prove nothing for reasons I've pointed out. White British (still the majority last time I looked) will be split in the same way they are with political parties, they're not a body of people who think the same way about virtually anything. Its a ridiculous, prejudiced, loaded poll, I'm interested to know who commissioned it.TheScreamingEagles said:
It covers all regions/demographics/education level/income etcblackburn63 said:TSE: There's a long term polling study coming out in the next few months about what White British people think about immigration, so we'll have a definitive answer either way.
Oh come on you're better than that. Are these white British people doctors and architects in Tunbridge Wells or living in Moss Side? You talk about them as if they're some sort of persecuted minority.
Is quite a chunky sample size of 8,000 I think.
I would have thought you would have learned after your dissing of the constituency polls showing UKIP weren't going to take Dover, but apparently not.0 -
Just so we're clear, as I heard it on the 8 o'clock news, the police investigation, the BBC said, would not begin by looking at Ms Thomson's affairs.TGOHF said:
Not here they don't - she looks forward to being cleared...TheWhiteRabbit said:
The BBC said that this morning I think.TGOHF said:
Dair - can you explain where the National got this nugget from ?Dair said:
There's nothing confusing about what happened. She resigned the whip, probably with prompting which is fair enough, and that automatically suspended her as an SNP member under SNP rules.Scott_P said:
She was "stepped down" by the party machine. They forgot to tell her about it until later...Dair said:A politician doing the honourable thing is an alien concept to these zoomers.
She may have been aware of this effect when she resigned the whip but that is the effect none the less. Resigning the whip was the right thing to do, allowing a proper investigation to take place.
It is a very good contrast to Alistair Carmichael who continues to cling to his position and embarrass his party.
"It is understood the initial police investigations will not involve Thomson herself."
"http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-34395392"
Analysis by Glenn Campbell, BBC Scotland political correspondent
Yet just one minute earlier, at 18:21, a statement issued by Michelle Thomson's personal media adviser made no mention of her stepping down from SNP duties.
It reads:
"I am aware of the police investigation and will cooperate fully if asked to do so. I have always acted within the law and look forward to being cleared of any suggestion of wrongdoing. I will be making no further comment on this matter."
Makes you wonder whether she really did jump or was she pushed?"
The implication being that she may later become involved.0 -
Not necessarily. If you're in the North Atlantic then I think you can fire them over the North Pole and they reach it via that shorter route.SandyRentool said:Is the Prime Minister going to clarify which cities he would be prepared to obliterate using Trident? I see from a BBC graphic that North Korea is out of range if the subs are in the Atlantic.
I'll wait for Sunil to insert the "His pattern indicates two dimensional thinking" line from "Wrath of Khan"
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It's starting to:Richard_Nabavi said:
I agree, I perhaps didn't make myself quite clear. My point on the politics was more that if you seem to address just one bit of the mess (for example legal EU immigration), you'll still have the political problem. Some of the problem is in fact theoretical at the moment - with the exception of the Calais disruption of the Channel Tunnel, the UK hasn't been significantly impacted (for the moment at least) by the EU migrant crisis, but nonetheless it seems to be having a large political impact.blackburn63 said:Have to disagree, we are suffering from immigration fatigue, most people are unable to differentiate between asylum seekers, economic migrants, refugees, EU citizens, overseas students, its a mess to the average person in the street.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3249731/Six-year-high-asylum-claims-4-300-refugees-reached-Britain-single-month.html0 -
Sandy Rentool... I imagine the cities that may be targeted would be in the countries that attacked us..just saying0
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I think views on immigration are much more nuanced than most polling has shown so far.TheScreamingEagles said:
There's a long term polling study coming out in the next few months about what White British people think about immigration, so we'll have a definitive answer either way.Richard_Tyndall said:
I find this a rather daft comment.TheScreamingEagles said:My favourite stat from that polling via Harry Evans of Ipsos Mori
Where is concern about immigration coming from? Not really from the places with the most immigrants..
London has the lowest levels of concern about immigration at around 35% of those questioned. But given that, according to the 2011 census, 37% of the population of London were born outside the UK and only 45% of the population are white British it is hardly surprising that there is less concern about immigration - because so many of those questioned are either immigrants or the children of immigrants. There is no way to say for sure but on those figures the degree of concern amongst the white British population could be as high as 75%. You just don't know.
This is not to say anything about the rights and wrongs of immigration - just that Harry Evans' and your analysis of the numbers is wrongheaded and illogical.
Edit will also have the views of first/second generation non white immigrants to this country too.
For example, polish plumbers are probably welcomed by all bar a few British plumbers, foreign doctors and nurses by pretty much everyone.
Less welcome are those who can't speak English, those coming in arranged marriages from the 3rd world (those two often overlap!) and those unable to be net contributers to society.
There will also be concerns about groups of immigrants forming ghettos in places like Rotherham and Tower Hamlets, bringing less savory elements of their home culture to the UK but seemingly tolerated by authorities here, complaints being dismissed out of hand or condemned as racist.
Other issues would be our inability to deport foreign wrongdoers, and the impact of high immigration on public infrastructure and services such as schools.
Looking forward to seeing this polling, should hopefully generate the required nuanced debate rather than the usual hyperbolic rhetoric deployed by all sides of the discussion.0 -
If ours are out of range, you can be damn sure his are as well. In fact, i doubt South Korea are in his range.SandyRentool said:Is the Prime Minister going to clarify which cities he would be prepared to obliterate using Trident? I see from a BBC graphic that North Korea is out of range if the subs are in the Atlantic.
A nuclear programme, whether for civilian energy or military defence needs perpetual dollops of cash only an affluent stable country can give it.
I'm aghast with horror at the thought that countries in Africa are looking to nuclear power. Anyone who has ever visited Africa will understand the endemic corruption throughout any large project, and the complete lack of any kind of maintenance after construction.
Try driving down a highway... Any highway in africa.. With the exception of South Africa.0 -
@ariehkovler: Kenny says PM Corbyn would have to resign if he couldn't ensure national defence. Basically rules him out as PM https://t.co/VTdafsdkcU0
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That article is a very nice example of my point - a headline about the UK, illustrated by a photo from Berlin.JEO said:0 -
My favourite posts from the last thread were you saying that the places concerned with immigrants weren't the places with most immigrants, then saying you weren't best placed to talk about first and second generation immigrants and not seeing that you'd defeated your own argumentTheScreamingEagles said:My favourite stat from that polling via Harry Evans of Ipsos Mori
Where is concern about immigration coming from? Not really from the places with the most immigrants..
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Hmm. http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/elections/2015/09/labour-now-biggest-party-britain-matters-more-you-think
Firstly, the circle of people becoming Labour MPs will likely shrink further, despite having the largest pool of sympathisers to draw from out of any of the parties. But getting selected as a Labour parliamentary candidate will now require talking to close to 1,000 people in most seats. In London, party memberships of over 2,000 are now the new normal. The cost – both in terms of money and time – will write off more and more people from seeking selection.
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I think this is a specific issue that needs to be separately addressed. The government should actively publish data on how ghettoised a place: perhaps comparing the demographics of each council area with the average for the UK, and highlight the ones which are most out of sync. We could then understand the extent of the problem and start thinking about how to address it. We could also do a similar thing with schools.Sandpit said:There will also be concerns about groups of immigrants forming ghettos in places like Rotherham and Tower Hamlets, bringing less savory elements of their home culture to the UK but seemingly tolerated by authorities here, complaints being dismissed out of hand or condemned as racist.
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Why would immigrants express concern at themselves?TheScreamingEagles said:My favourite stat from that polling via Harry Evans of Ipsos Mori
Where is concern about immigration coming from? Not really from the places with the most immigrants..0 -
No list showing that information has ever been published and likely never will, for obvious reasons.SandyRentool said:Is the Prime Minister going to clarify which cities he would be prepared to obliterate using Trident? I see from a BBC graphic that North Korea is out of range if the subs are in the Atlantic.
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It seems to me that the anti-Corbyn resistance movement in Labour is positioning itself to use Trident as a lever to get rid of him. That would be a smart move, but there's a problem: Corbyn's views were very well-known and he is correct when he says that therefore he has a mandate. What's more, I think he'll try to outflank the resistance movement by getting an explicit endorsement of his unilateralist (or at least opposition to Trident renewal) stance from party members.0
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And Jezza says he wouldn't step down. http://www.theguardian.com/politics/blog/live/2015/sep/30/labour-conference-jeremy-corbyns-morning-interviews-politics-live#block-560ba355e4b00e76364a2513Scott_P said:
@ariehkovler: Kenny says PM Corbyn would have to resign if he couldn't ensure national defence. Basically rules him out as PM https://t.co/VTdafsdkcU
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This can't be difficult to work out.
I live in upminster, a place with v few immigrants and a large majority of white brits. Safe tory area with a high ukip vote
The next station is barking, v high immigration level and ever decreasing number of white brits. Safe labour area
The people in upminster travel to London via barking.. They see that it's an absolute khazi were no one seems to speak English
There are people more concerned about immigration in Upminster than there are in barking, although probably the level of frustration of those concerned is higher in barking as they are poor and trapped
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I've written nothing off, I just know we'll never get a poll showing what black people think, quite rightly, if you're British your colour is irrelevant.TheScreamingEagles said:
I love how you write off polls before they've even been published.blackburn63 said:
Its a poll that will prove nothing for reasons I've pointed out. White British (still the majority last time I looked) will be split in the same way they are with political parties, they're not a body of people who think the same way about virtually anything. Its a ridiculous, prejudiced, loaded poll, I'm interested to know who commissioned it.TheScreamingEagles said:
It covers all regions/demographics/education level/income etcblackburn63 said:TSE: There's a long term polling study coming out in the next few months about what White British people think about immigration, so we'll have a definitive answer either way.
Oh come on you're better than that. Are these white British people doctors and architects in Tunbridge Wells or living in Moss Side? You talk about them as if they're some sort of persecuted minority.
Is quite a chunky sample size of 8,000 I think.
I would have thought you would have learned after your dissing of the constituency polls showing UKIP weren't going to take Dover, but apparently not.
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Conference voted for TridentRichard_Nabavi said:What's more, I think he'll try to outflank the resistance movement by getting an explicit endorsement of his unilateralist (or at least opposition to Trident renewal) stance from party members.
0
