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Nigel Farage hasn’t wargamed his by-election very well – politicalbetting.com

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  • FF43FF43 Posts: 19,982
    RobD said:

    tlg86 said:

    https://x.com/SkyNews/status/2077742798866964837

    Sky News @SkyNews
    Liberal Democrats leader Ed Davey has called on FIFA to ban the six Argentine players who celebrated with the "Falklands are Argentine" banner from playing in Sunday's final.

    Ed Davey has told Sky News he has written to the president Gianni Infantino.

    A ridiculous overreaction.
    Ed Davey's example is an exact equivalent that did lead to a one match ban for the players involved so NOT doing the same with the a Argentinian players would be two-tier. FIFA isn't consistent about anything so won't happen of course, but to the extent anyone cares about principle, they should do this.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 80,170
    Jacks takes one up the arse, as the saying goes.

    At least it didn't hit his bails.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 80,170
    That will teach me to think that Jacks was playing sensibly and just as required.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 51,516
    Taz said:

    Jesus, is there no end to the grift

    “ 🚨BREAKING

    President Donald Trump will sell Wall Street faster access to his Truth Social posts”

    https://x.com/insiderwave_/status/2077831824844157417?s=61

    He is, quite literally, having a laugh. Not just at 'libtards' but also, in fact especially, at all the people who voted for him. I guess some of them, those with a few braincells not washed by the cult, have by now come to realise this. I really hope so anyway. Otherwise, bye bye Miss America Pie.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 90,872
    edited July 16
    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    What is wrong with Vance ?
    This is just bizarre.

    Vance muses on Joe Biden eating ice cream:

    "His staff would get him to eat ice cream in just the most suggestive way possible..."

    https://x.com/factpostnews/status/2077463262858244361

    In the immortal words of Stuart:

    Everyone has a different theory.

    Personally, I think he's just a coward.
    https://x.com/HunterBiden/status/2077792741199626568
    "I don’t even know what to say anymore. Couches and now this."
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 80,170
    Nigelb said:



    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    What is wrong with Vance ?
    This is just bizarre.

    Vance muses on Joe Biden eating ice cream:

    "His staff would get him to eat ice cream in just the most suggestive way possible..."

    https://x.com/factpostnews/status/2077463262858244361

    In the immortal words of Stuart:

    Everyone has a different theory.

    Personally, I think he's just a coward.
    https://x.com/HunterBiden/status/2077792741199626568
    "I don’t even know what to say anymore. Couches and now this."
    Nothing can cushion the impact.

    The worst thing about Trump's extraordinary disasters from whatever it is he is suffering from are that we're at the stage where it would be better for everyone if Vance took over.

    That's how bad things are.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 19,982
    FF43 said:

    RobD said:

    tlg86 said:

    https://x.com/SkyNews/status/2077742798866964837

    Sky News @SkyNews
    Liberal Democrats leader Ed Davey has called on FIFA to ban the six Argentine players who celebrated with the "Falklands are Argentine" banner from playing in Sunday's final.

    Ed Davey has told Sky News he has written to the president Gianni Infantino.

    A ridiculous overreaction.
    Ed Davey's example is an exact equivalent that did lead to a one match ban for the players involved so NOT doing the same with the a Argentinian players would be two-tier. FIFA isn't consistent about anything so won't happen of course, but to the extent anyone cares about principle, they should do this.
    Admittedly by UEFA, not FIFA, but the event took place outside the stadium, so arguably the Argentinian incident is worse.

    Spain captain Alvaro Morata and team-mate Rodri have been banned for one game by Uefa after they chanted "Gibraltar is Spanish" during their side's Euro 2024 victory celebrations.

    The Gibraltar Football Association (GFA) made an official complaint about the celebrations to European football's governing body before the pair were charged.

    Uefa has now suspended Morata and Rodri "for failing to comply with the general principles of conduct, for violating the basic rules of decent conduct, for using sporting events for manifestations of a non-sporting nature and for bringing the sport of football, and Uefa in particular, into disrepute".

    They are banned for Spain's next game, which is against Serbia on Thursday, 5 September
    .

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/articles/c8xle8e7ngno
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 80,170
    edited July 16
    Because this is really important stuff, unlike sacking the entirety of the Treasury or enacting proper reforms of the education system;

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/ckgvwxygpv2o

    I can also deduce from this that none of them have any idea what most marriages are actually like:

    But ceremonies deemed to be "gimmicks" that risk trivialising the legal act of marriage would not be allowed under what the government calls a "dignity framework".
    Activities "such as skydiving, white-water rafting, rollercoasters or other amusement rides" would "fall short of the standard," it says in a consultation setting out the plans, external.
    But it adds: "This would not preclude the inclusion of light-hearted elements such as a reading from Shakespeare, a sing-along to Sweet Caroline or other similar contributions, so long as these remain within the bounds of dignity and do not amount to excessive or inappropriate displays."
    The proposals also say food and drink, including alcohol, should not be "casually/recreationally consumed during the ceremony".


    Speaking as an organist who attends a lot of them, that's all marriages scuppered straight away. They already have ridiculous readings and music and most of the guests are hammered all the time and necking it as they go.
  • TazTaz Posts: 29,576
    ydoethur said:

    Because this is really important stuff, unlike sacking the entirety of the Treasury or enacting proper reforms of the education system;

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/ckgvwxygpv2o

    I can also deduce from this that none of them have any idea what most marriages are actually like:

    But ceremonies deemed to be "gimmicks" that risk trivialising the legal act of marriage would not be allowed under what the government calls a "dignity framework".
    Activities "such as skydiving, white-water rafting, rollercoasters or other amusement rides" would "fall short of the standard," it says in a consultation setting out the plans, external.
    But it adds: "This would not preclude the inclusion of light-hearted elements such as a reading from Shakespeare, a sing-along to Sweet Caroline or other similar contributions, so long as these remain within the bounds of dignity and do not amount to excessive or inappropriate displays."
    The proposals also say food and drink, including alcohol, should not be "casually/recreationally consumed during the ceremony".


    Speaking as an organist who attends a lot of them, that's all marriages scuppered straight away. They already have ridiculous readings and music and most of the guests are hammered all the time and necking it as they go.

    It’s all about the legacy now.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 80,170
    Taz said:

    ydoethur said:

    Because this is really important stuff, unlike sacking the entirety of the Treasury or enacting proper reforms of the education system;

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/ckgvwxygpv2o

    I can also deduce from this that none of them have any idea what most marriages are actually like:

    But ceremonies deemed to be "gimmicks" that risk trivialising the legal act of marriage would not be allowed under what the government calls a "dignity framework".
    Activities "such as skydiving, white-water rafting, rollercoasters or other amusement rides" would "fall short of the standard," it says in a consultation setting out the plans, external.
    But it adds: "This would not preclude the inclusion of light-hearted elements such as a reading from Shakespeare, a sing-along to Sweet Caroline or other similar contributions, so long as these remain within the bounds of dignity and do not amount to excessive or inappropriate displays."
    The proposals also say food and drink, including alcohol, should not be "casually/recreationally consumed during the ceremony".


    Speaking as an organist who attends a lot of them, that's all marriages scuppered straight away. They already have ridiculous readings and music and most of the guests are hammered all the time and necking it as they go.

    It’s all about the legacy now.
    That would be reform of funerals.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 40,568
    ...
    ydoethur said:

    Because this is really important stuff, unlike sacking the entirety of the Treasury or enacting proper reforms of the education system;

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/ckgvwxygpv2o

    I can also deduce from this that none of them have any idea what most marriages are actually like:

    But ceremonies deemed to be "gimmicks" that risk trivialising the legal act of marriage would not be allowed under what the government calls a "dignity framework".
    Activities "such as skydiving, white-water rafting, rollercoasters or other amusement rides" would "fall short of the standard," it says in a consultation setting out the plans, external.
    But it adds: "This would not preclude the inclusion of light-hearted elements such as a reading from Shakespeare, a sing-along to Sweet Caroline or other similar contributions, so long as these remain within the bounds of dignity and do not amount to excessive or inappropriate displays."
    The proposals also say food and drink, including alcohol, should not be "casually/recreationally consumed during the ceremony".


    Speaking as an organist who attends a lot of them, that's all marriages scuppered straight away. They already have ridiculous readings and music and most of the guests are hammered all the time and necking it as they go.

    Being married by an Elvis impersonator in Vegas is classy enough for my next throw of the dice if Trump can celebrate 250 years of US independence with a cage fight on the Whitehouse lawn.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 80,170
    edited July 16
    When Joe Root retires at the end of next summer, we are so epically fucked.

    99 not out was the equivalent of about 150 given the brainlessness of the rest of the lineup.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 64,393
    ydoethur said:

    Because this is really important stuff, unlike sacking the entirety of the Treasury or enacting proper reforms of the education system;

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/ckgvwxygpv2o

    I can also deduce from this that none of them have any idea what most marriages are actually like:

    But ceremonies deemed to be "gimmicks" that risk trivialising the legal act of marriage would not be allowed under what the government calls a "dignity framework".
    Activities "such as skydiving, white-water rafting, rollercoasters or other amusement rides" would "fall short of the standard," it says in a consultation setting out the plans, external.
    But it adds: "This would not preclude the inclusion of light-hearted elements such as a reading from Shakespeare, a sing-along to Sweet Caroline or other similar contributions, so long as these remain within the bounds of dignity and do not amount to excessive or inappropriate displays."
    The proposals also say food and drink, including alcohol, should not be "casually/recreationally consumed during the ceremony".


    Speaking as an organist who attends a lot of them, that's all marriages scuppered straight away. They already have ridiculous readings and music and most of the guests are hammered all the time and necking it as they go.

    Sigh

    Sacking the entire Treasury would be stupid.

    Who would crew the first manned landing on Saturn?

    (DfE does the first manned landing on the Sun. Parliament the first manned landing on Uranus)
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 80,170

    ydoethur said:

    Because this is really important stuff, unlike sacking the entirety of the Treasury or enacting proper reforms of the education system;

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/ckgvwxygpv2o

    I can also deduce from this that none of them have any idea what most marriages are actually like:

    But ceremonies deemed to be "gimmicks" that risk trivialising the legal act of marriage would not be allowed under what the government calls a "dignity framework".
    Activities "such as skydiving, white-water rafting, rollercoasters or other amusement rides" would "fall short of the standard," it says in a consultation setting out the plans, external.
    But it adds: "This would not preclude the inclusion of light-hearted elements such as a reading from Shakespeare, a sing-along to Sweet Caroline or other similar contributions, so long as these remain within the bounds of dignity and do not amount to excessive or inappropriate displays."
    The proposals also say food and drink, including alcohol, should not be "casually/recreationally consumed during the ceremony".


    Speaking as an organist who attends a lot of them, that's all marriages scuppered straight away. They already have ridiculous readings and music and most of the guests are hammered all the time and necking it as they go.

    Sigh

    Sacking the entire Treasury would be stupid.

    Who would crew the first manned landing on Saturn?

    (DfE does the first manned landing on the Sun. Parliament the first manned landing on Uranus)
    Excuse me!

    I have no wish to have a bunch of MPs land on my anus!
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 40,568

    HYUFD said:

    Farage may hope he wins by a big enough majority in Clacton to avoid a recall by election

    That's what he set out to do. I can't see Labour and the Tories blindsided by that one.
    To be cynical, would Labour want to risk the Conservatives winning a re-run in Clacton?
    In that case surely the Tories can muster 10% of vexed Clacton voters.
  • pm215pm215 Posts: 1,453

    tlg86 said:

    This is bad:

    https://www.gov.uk/government/news/collision-between-a-train-and-a-car-at-hoghton-level-crossing

    At around 08:48 on 25 June 2026, the 07:51 Northern passenger service from Colne to Preston struck a car on Hoghton automatic half-barrier level crossing, which is situated between Preston and Blackburn. The driver of the car was fatally injured in the accident and a child who was a passenger in the car was also seriously injured. No injuries were caused to anyone on the train.

    The evidence available to RAIB shows that the train had passed a green (proceed) signal as it approached the crossing. RAIB’s preliminary examination also found that the road traffic lights and audible alarm at the crossing had not been activated, and that the half-barriers were raised.

    It's quite concerning level crossing safety signals can actually fail in such way. I would have expected the system to keep the lights at red unless it had an indication the barrier and alarms had been triggered.
    Automatic half barrier crossings don't interlock with the signals like that; full barrier crossings do. The reasoning generally given is that to interlock with the signals you need to close the barriers a lot longer before the train arrives, and drivers tend not to like that. But Wikipedia tells me they are now gradually phasing them out in favour of full barrier crossings.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 23,835
    ydoethur said:

    When Joe Root retires at the end of next summer, we are so epically fucked.

    99 not out was the equivalent of about 150 given the brainlessness of the rest of the lineup.

    You think he's gone after the ashes?
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 29,336

    HYUFD said:

    Farage may hope he wins by a big enough majority in Clacton to avoid a recall by election

    That's what he set out to do. I can't see Labour and the Tories blindsided by that one.
    To be cynical, would Labour want to risk the Conservatives winning a re-run in Clacton?
    In that case surely the Tories can muster 10% of vexed Clacton voters.
    Unlikely, since its 10% of the electorate and not 10% of voters.

    Would probably require multiple parties voters to sign up.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 80,170

    ydoethur said:

    When Joe Root retires at the end of next summer, we are so epically fucked.

    99 not out was the equivalent of about 150 given the brainlessness of the rest of the lineup.

    You think he's gone after the ashes?
    To put it another way, I will be very pleasantly surprised if he isn't.

    Unless he retires before, of course.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 23,835
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    When Joe Root retires at the end of next summer, we are so epically fucked.

    99 not out was the equivalent of about 150 given the brainlessness of the rest of the lineup.

    You think he's gone after the ashes?
    To put it another way, I will be very pleasantly surprised if he isn't.

    Unless he retires before, of course.
    I think he still has the hunger for runs and is clearly still good enough. It may come suddenly I guess. Hope he has years left yet.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 17,784
    ydoethur said:

    Because this is really important stuff, unlike sacking the entirety of the Treasury or enacting proper reforms of the education system;

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/ckgvwxygpv2o

    I can also deduce from this that none of them have any idea what most marriages are actually like:

    But ceremonies deemed to be "gimmicks" that risk trivialising the legal act of marriage would not be allowed under what the government calls a "dignity framework".
    Activities "such as skydiving, white-water rafting, rollercoasters or other amusement rides" would "fall short of the standard," it says in a consultation setting out the plans, external.
    But it adds: "This would not preclude the inclusion of light-hearted elements such as a reading from Shakespeare, a sing-along to Sweet Caroline or other similar contributions, so long as these remain within the bounds of dignity and do not amount to excessive or inappropriate displays."
    The proposals also say food and drink, including alcohol, should not be "casually/recreationally consumed during the ceremony".


    Speaking as an organist who attends a lot of them, that's all marriages scuppered straight away. They already have ridiculous readings and music and most of the guests are hammered all the time and necking it as they go.

    This is Starmerism all over. An update to procedures which nobody was clamouring for.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 34,032
    Cookie said:

    ydoethur said:

    Because this is really important stuff, unlike sacking the entirety of the Treasury or enacting proper reforms of the education system;

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/ckgvwxygpv2o

    I can also deduce from this that none of them have any idea what most marriages are actually like:

    But ceremonies deemed to be "gimmicks" that risk trivialising the legal act of marriage would not be allowed under what the government calls a "dignity framework".
    Activities "such as skydiving, white-water rafting, rollercoasters or other amusement rides" would "fall short of the standard," it says in a consultation setting out the plans, external.
    But it adds: "This would not preclude the inclusion of light-hearted elements such as a reading from Shakespeare, a sing-along to Sweet Caroline or other similar contributions, so long as these remain within the bounds of dignity and do not amount to excessive or inappropriate displays."
    The proposals also say food and drink, including alcohol, should not be "casually/recreationally consumed during the ceremony".


    Speaking as an organist who attends a lot of them, that's all marriages scuppered straight away. They already have ridiculous readings and music and most of the guests are hammered all the time and necking it as they go.

    This is Starmerism all over. An update to procedures which nobody was clamouring for.
    I'm not sure what all the flapping is about, other than the normal Pavlovian desire to have a go at SKS.

    Mr Cameron introduced Equal Marriage in 2013, soon after the GFC.

    This is more or less following what Scotland did already, and will have the advantage of more options - including lower cost - weddings being available to those who want or need them.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 34,783
    ydoethur said:

    Gloucestershire to become a single unitary.

    That is bad news for the Forest and Stroud, possibly Gloucester itself, as the county council will be dominated by rich Fukkers from Tewkesbury and the Cotswolds who will be totally unscrupulous about redirecting all the money to where it will benefit their voters rather than where it's actually needed.

    The whole plan for the country is a f##king shambles. Pointless and costly reorganisations which will do nothing to improve local democracy or performance. Indeed I expect services to be far worse and cost far more as a result.
  • TazTaz Posts: 29,576

    ydoethur said:

    Gloucestershire to become a single unitary.

    That is bad news for the Forest and Stroud, possibly Gloucester itself, as the county council will be dominated by rich Fukkers from Tewkesbury and the Cotswolds who will be totally unscrupulous about redirecting all the money to where it will benefit their voters rather than where it's actually needed.

    The whole plan for the country is a f##king shambles. Pointless and costly reorganisations which will do nothing to improve local democracy or performance. Indeed I expect services to be far worse and cost far more as a result.
    I’d be fascinated by the thought processes behind these re-organisations.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 37,425
    Taz said:

    ydoethur said:

    Gloucestershire to become a single unitary.

    That is bad news for the Forest and Stroud, possibly Gloucester itself, as the county council will be dominated by rich Fukkers from Tewkesbury and the Cotswolds who will be totally unscrupulous about redirecting all the money to where it will benefit their voters rather than where it's actually needed.

    The whole plan for the country is a f##king shambles. Pointless and costly reorganisations which will do nothing to improve local democracy or performance. Indeed I expect services to be far worse and cost far more as a result.
    I’d be fascinated by the thought processes behind these re-organisations.
    1. Saving money
    2. Cutting costs
    3. Rinse and repeat...

    Whether money is actually ever saved is another matter, but the bean counters say 'economies of scale'.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 40,568
    edited July 16

    HYUFD said:

    Farage may hope he wins by a big enough majority in Clacton to avoid a recall by election

    That's what he set out to do. I can't see Labour and the Tories blindsided by that one.
    To be cynical, would Labour want to risk the Conservatives winning a re-run in Clacton?
    In that case surely the Tories can muster 10% of vexed Clacton voters.
    Unlikely, since its 10% of the electorate and not 10% of voters.

    Would probably require multiple parties voters to sign up.
    I didn't specify 10% of Conservative voters or even voters. If the Conservatives have a hope of overturning Farage I am suggesting they have the wherewithal to rally enough angry voters to recall the MP again.
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 29,336
    ydoethur said:

    Because this is really important stuff, unlike sacking the entirety of the Treasury or enacting proper reforms of the education system;

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/ckgvwxygpv2o

    I can also deduce from this that none of them have any idea what most marriages are actually like:

    But ceremonies deemed to be "gimmicks" that risk trivialising the legal act of marriage would not be allowed under what the government calls a "dignity framework".
    Activities "such as skydiving, white-water rafting, rollercoasters or other amusement rides" would "fall short of the standard," it says in a consultation setting out the plans, external.
    But it adds: "This would not preclude the inclusion of light-hearted elements such as a reading from Shakespeare, a sing-along to Sweet Caroline or other similar contributions, so long as these remain within the bounds of dignity and do not amount to excessive or inappropriate displays."
    The proposals also say food and drink, including alcohol, should not be "casually/recreationally consumed during the ceremony".


    Speaking as an organist who attends a lot of them, that's all marriages scuppered straight away. They already have ridiculous readings and music and most of the guests are hammered all the time and necking it as they go.

    Besides the odd definition of light hearted and the dignity restrictions, the overall direction of travel there is a rare good one.

    It is a liberalisation which should generally be welcomed. Wedding venues are incredibly expensive and if a liberalisation can give people more choice and potentially save thousands, what's not to like?

    I know many pubs etc with marquees that already host receptions but are forbidden from having the ceremony as not licensed for that. If this allows them to offer that, and people want that, then that should be welcomed.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 34,783
    Taz said:

    ydoethur said:

    Gloucestershire to become a single unitary.

    That is bad news for the Forest and Stroud, possibly Gloucester itself, as the county council will be dominated by rich Fukkers from Tewkesbury and the Cotswolds who will be totally unscrupulous about redirecting all the money to where it will benefit their voters rather than where it's actually needed.

    The whole plan for the country is a f##king shambles. Pointless and costly reorganisations which will do nothing to improve local democracy or performance. Indeed I expect services to be far worse and cost far more as a result.
    I’d be fascinated by the thought processes behind these re-organisations.
    Sadly I do suspect a lot of gerrymandering.

    And of course the changes will ensure that rural areas are dominated by the adjacent urban areas so making things like new building developments easier.

    They will do almost nothing to save costs. There will be a few very senior managerial jobs that will go but because of the TUPE rules they cannot use the reorganisation as an excuse for layoffs, nor can they change pay and conditions. And given that they will still need to use existing district and county council offices because they still need to do all the jobs that are currently being done and need the office spce for that, there will be little or no real-estate savings.

    This is all being driven entirely by political considerations and is a centralising rather than decentralising move. A real retrograde step.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 104,602
    HYUFD said:

    Farage may hope he wins by a big enough majority in Clacton to avoid a recall by election

    Given you only need 10%, there's very little chance a win of even 90% on low turnout prevents a recall. Every recall petition bar the first has easily succeeded.

    From an opposition standpoint you'd still push hard, since it forces him to do it over again, and why not take the chance that some of his support might have fallen away? Even if most stuck with him (as it probably would) at least some wouldn't).
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 34,783

    Taz said:

    ydoethur said:

    Gloucestershire to become a single unitary.

    That is bad news for the Forest and Stroud, possibly Gloucester itself, as the county council will be dominated by rich Fukkers from Tewkesbury and the Cotswolds who will be totally unscrupulous about redirecting all the money to where it will benefit their voters rather than where it's actually needed.

    The whole plan for the country is a f##king shambles. Pointless and costly reorganisations which will do nothing to improve local democracy or performance. Indeed I expect services to be far worse and cost far more as a result.
    I’d be fascinated by the thought processes behind these re-organisations.
    1. Saving money
    2. Cutting costs
    3. Rinse and repeat...

    Whether money is actually ever saved is another matter, but the bean counters say 'economies of scale'.
    When have the bean counters ever been right?
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 29,336

    Taz said:

    ydoethur said:

    Gloucestershire to become a single unitary.

    That is bad news for the Forest and Stroud, possibly Gloucester itself, as the county council will be dominated by rich Fukkers from Tewkesbury and the Cotswolds who will be totally unscrupulous about redirecting all the money to where it will benefit their voters rather than where it's actually needed.

    The whole plan for the country is a f##king shambles. Pointless and costly reorganisations which will do nothing to improve local democracy or performance. Indeed I expect services to be far worse and cost far more as a result.
    I’d be fascinated by the thought processes behind these re-organisations.
    Sadly I do suspect a lot of gerrymandering.

    And of course the changes will ensure that rural areas are dominated by the adjacent urban areas so making things like new building developments easier.

    They will do almost nothing to save costs. There will be a few very senior managerial jobs that will go but because of the TUPE rules they cannot use the reorganisation as an excuse for layoffs, nor can they change pay and conditions. And given that they will still need to use existing district and county council offices because they still need to do all the jobs that are currently being done and need the office spce for that, there will be little or no real-estate savings.

    This is all being driven entirely by political considerations and is a centralising rather than decentralising move. A real retrograde step.
    Given we desperately need developments and that you (rightly) welcome migration which means we need even more developments, then why are you saying it will make new developments easier as if it is a bad thing?
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 23,376
    Taz said:

    ydoethur said:

    Gloucestershire to become a single unitary.

    That is bad news for the Forest and Stroud, possibly Gloucester itself, as the county council will be dominated by rich Fukkers from Tewkesbury and the Cotswolds who will be totally unscrupulous about redirecting all the money to where it will benefit their voters rather than where it's actually needed.

    The whole plan for the country is a f##king shambles. Pointless and costly reorganisations which will do nothing to improve local democracy or performance. Indeed I expect services to be far worse and cost far more as a result.
    I’d be fascinated by the thought processes behind these re-organisations.
    Mostly planning, I reckon.

    There are lots of cities that want to expand, know about expansion, but can't really because they have built out to where the city limit was put in 1974 or whenever. Go over the boundary and you have a different council whose priorities are often about green belts, strategic gaps and not being absorbed by that ghastly metropolis. Democratic will of the people, innit?

    It doesn't have to be that way- South Cambridgeshire has broadly accepted that it has a role taking people as part of the Cambridge co-prosperity sphere, because Cambridge City's boundaries are insane (they exclude the nicest Cambridge college, for example). But most of the councils for surrounding districts see it as their duty to be as dog-in-the-manger as possible.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 104,602

    Taz said:

    ydoethur said:

    Gloucestershire to become a single unitary.

    That is bad news for the Forest and Stroud, possibly Gloucester itself, as the county council will be dominated by rich Fukkers from Tewkesbury and the Cotswolds who will be totally unscrupulous about redirecting all the money to where it will benefit their voters rather than where it's actually needed.

    The whole plan for the country is a f##king shambles. Pointless and costly reorganisations which will do nothing to improve local democracy or performance. Indeed I expect services to be far worse and cost far more as a result.
    I’d be fascinated by the thought processes behind these re-organisations.
    Sadly I do suspect a lot of gerrymandering.

    And of course the changes will ensure that rural areas are dominated by the adjacent urban areas so making things like new building developments easier.

    They will do almost nothing to save costs. There will be a few very senior managerial jobs that will go but because of the TUPE rules they cannot use the reorganisation as an excuse for layoffs, nor can they change pay and conditions. And given that they will still need to use existing district and county council offices because they still need to do all the jobs that are currently being done and need the office spce for that, there will be little or no real-estate savings.

    This is all being driven entirely by political considerations and is a centralising rather than decentralising move. A real retrograde step.
    I don't think centralisation is always bad and decentralising always good. I think that is often the case, so it gets treated like it is universal, with the result that sometimes people centralise but have to pretend they are not.

    I think the principle behind the drive towards unitarisation is a good one particularly given the very limited resources for local government. I don't think districts and county councils are necessary or particularly effective. Existing unitaries show that things like real estate savings and managerial reductions will likely come over time.

    Now, some of the choices for the reorganisations are certainly questionable to say the least, so some of the areas as proposed are not ideal, but the way divisions are pulled together by the LGBCE (now or in a later review) makes political gerrymandering a lot harder than people think, as they do not just follow what the local councils or a party tells them - they often the local council suggestion as a starting point, since they have the most resources to suggest an all-council proposal, but local comments can change things a lot.

    I made a public comment on one in my area, and it was cited as reason to make a fairly significant set of changes against even the wishes of the councillor who represented that area.

    It's very peculiar that the final call has been dropped now, but my contacts in this area tell me it's because Steve Reed is an arse.
  • Daveyboy1961Daveyboy1961 Posts: 5,583

    HYUFD said:

    Farage may hope he wins by a big enough majority in Clacton to avoid a recall by election

    That's what he set out to do. I can't see Labour and the Tories blindsided by that one.
    To be cynical, would Labour want to risk the Conservatives winning a re-run in Clacton?
    In that case surely the Tories can muster 10% of vexed Clacton voters.
    Unlikely, since its 10% of the electorate and not 10% of voters.

    Would probably require multiple parties voters to sign up.
    I didn't specify 10% of Conservative voters or even voters. If the Conservatives have a hope of overturning Farage I am suggesting they have the wherewithal to rally enough angry voters to recall the MP again.
    I'm sure the likes of 3 parties can pull together 8000 votes for a recall
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 40,568

    HYUFD said:

    Farage may hope he wins by a big enough majority in Clacton to avoid a recall by election

    That's what he set out to do. I can't see Labour and the Tories blindsided by that one.
    To be cynical, would Labour want to risk the Conservatives winning a re-run in Clacton?
    In that case surely the Tories can muster 10% of vexed Clacton voters.
    Unlikely, since its 10% of the electorate and not 10% of voters.

    Would probably require multiple parties voters to sign up.
    8000 voters doesn't seem a big ask to recall a divisive figure like Farage.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 104,602
    edited July 16

    Taz said:

    ydoethur said:

    Gloucestershire to become a single unitary.

    That is bad news for the Forest and Stroud, possibly Gloucester itself, as the county council will be dominated by rich Fukkers from Tewkesbury and the Cotswolds who will be totally unscrupulous about redirecting all the money to where it will benefit their voters rather than where it's actually needed.

    The whole plan for the country is a f##king shambles. Pointless and costly reorganisations which will do nothing to improve local democracy or performance. Indeed I expect services to be far worse and cost far more as a result.
    I’d be fascinated by the thought processes behind these re-organisations.
    Sadly I do suspect a lot of gerrymandering.

    And of course the changes will ensure that rural areas are dominated by the adjacent urban areas so making things like new building developments easier.

    They will do almost nothing to save costs. There will be a few very senior managerial jobs that will go but because of the TUPE rules they cannot use the reorganisation as an excuse for layoffs, nor can they change pay and conditions. And given that they will still need to use existing district and county council offices because they still need to do all the jobs that are currently being done and need the office spce for that, there will be little or no real-estate savings.

    This is all being driven entirely by political considerations and is a centralising rather than decentralising move. A real retrograde step.
    Given we desperately need developments and that you (rightly) welcome migration which means we need even more developments, then why are you saying it will make new developments easier as if it is a bad thing?
    And even if it is, facilitating that would be an entirely legitimate political choice for government to make. Something being 'political' does not automatically mean it is bad, unless people mean it narrowly to mean 'party political' to advantage one side in electoral terms.

    Which is a potential accusation, but administrative boundaries being driven by political considerations is pretty normal - the criteria for setting them are done by politicians for a start, and you have criteria like community but also electoral equality (for wards) that end up conflicting, and no matter how you do it the reality of where people live don't fit perfectly in that.

    Are these proposals borked? Possibly, in some areas (Devon looks a mess to me). But having a political drive to reduce the number of councils, and possibly to make development easier (I don't think it will be that easier, but whatever)? Legitimate.

    And people don't even care about their local council until it is changed. I've known people who still think they live in a district council which was abolished nearly 20 years ago.
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 29,336
    kle4 said:

    Taz said:

    ydoethur said:

    Gloucestershire to become a single unitary.

    That is bad news for the Forest and Stroud, possibly Gloucester itself, as the county council will be dominated by rich Fukkers from Tewkesbury and the Cotswolds who will be totally unscrupulous about redirecting all the money to where it will benefit their voters rather than where it's actually needed.

    The whole plan for the country is a f##king shambles. Pointless and costly reorganisations which will do nothing to improve local democracy or performance. Indeed I expect services to be far worse and cost far more as a result.
    I’d be fascinated by the thought processes behind these re-organisations.
    Sadly I do suspect a lot of gerrymandering.

    And of course the changes will ensure that rural areas are dominated by the adjacent urban areas so making things like new building developments easier.

    They will do almost nothing to save costs. There will be a few very senior managerial jobs that will go but because of the TUPE rules they cannot use the reorganisation as an excuse for layoffs, nor can they change pay and conditions. And given that they will still need to use existing district and county council offices because they still need to do all the jobs that are currently being done and need the office spce for that, there will be little or no real-estate savings.

    This is all being driven entirely by political considerations and is a centralising rather than decentralising move. A real retrograde step.
    I don't think centralisation is always bad and decentralising always good. I think that is often the case, so it gets treated like it is universal, with the result that sometimes people centralise but have to pretend they are not.

    I think the principle behind the drive towards unitarisation is a good one particularly given the very limited resources for local government. I don't think districts and county councils are necessary or particularly effective. Existing unitaries show that things like real estate savings and managerial reductions will likely come over time.

    Now, some of the choices for the reorganisations are certainly questionable to say the least, so some of the areas as proposed are not ideal, but the way divisions are pulled together by the LGBCE (now or in a later review) makes political gerrymandering a lot harder than people think, as they do not just follow what the local councils or a party tells them - they often the local council suggestion as a starting point, since they have the most resources to suggest an all-council proposal, but local comments can change things a lot.

    I made a public comment on one in my area, and it was cited as reason to make a fairly significant set of changes against even the wishes of the councillor who represented that area.

    It's very peculiar that the final call has been dropped now, but my contacts in this area tell me it's because Steve Reed is an arse.
    One area I gree with Richard is that gerrymandering seems to be the primary concern with some of these boundaries.

    Eg in Lancashire why on earth twin Preston with Lancaster when it takes a half hour on the M6 to get between them? Whereas Preston and South Ribble and Chorley form one contiguous urban development with a river down the middle but will now be separate Councils?

    It could not possibly be because Preston and Lancaster more solidly vote Labour while South Ribble and Chorley can often vote Tory? No, couldn't possibly be that ...

    The same almost happened with Warrington and Cheshire, lots of arguments about how it should be arranged and whether the town should be in Merseyside's development with much of the arguments based on partisan politics.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 104,602

    Taz said:

    ydoethur said:

    Gloucestershire to become a single unitary.

    That is bad news for the Forest and Stroud, possibly Gloucester itself, as the county council will be dominated by rich Fukkers from Tewkesbury and the Cotswolds who will be totally unscrupulous about redirecting all the money to where it will benefit their voters rather than where it's actually needed.

    The whole plan for the country is a f##king shambles. Pointless and costly reorganisations which will do nothing to improve local democracy or performance. Indeed I expect services to be far worse and cost far more as a result.
    I’d be fascinated by the thought processes behind these re-organisations.
    1. Saving money
    2. Cutting costs
    3. Rinse and repeat...

    Whether money is actually ever saved is another matter, but the bean counters say 'economies of scale'.
    When have the bean counters ever been right?
    My council, perhaps to justify it's own existence, has said unitarisation enabled saving money and cutting costs which was essential, and unlikely to happen without it. It was done against the wishes of most of the preceding councils and the policy of the Leader's own national party at the time, but they must have changed their tune as they put her in the Lords several years later.

    It's not the cure to all ills, and can be done in a hamfisted way, but this is an area I support the motive of the government at least.

    I'm sure there will be some legal challenges, but on its face that sounds hard to succeed - there are criteria for areas the minister will suppose to have followed, but I'm sure the language was loose around essentially making judgement calls, so it would be easy to defend as reasonable even if everyone hates it.
  • MelonBMelonB Posts: 17,570
    edited July 16

    Taz said:

    ydoethur said:

    Gloucestershire to become a single unitary.

    That is bad news for the Forest and Stroud, possibly Gloucester itself, as the county council will be dominated by rich Fukkers from Tewkesbury and the Cotswolds who will be totally unscrupulous about redirecting all the money to where it will benefit their voters rather than where it's actually needed.

    The whole plan for the country is a f##king shambles. Pointless and costly reorganisations which will do nothing to improve local democracy or performance. Indeed I expect services to be far worse and cost far more as a result.
    I’d be fascinated by the thought processes behind these re-organisations.
    1. Saving money
    2. Cutting costs
    3. Rinse and repeat...

    Whether money is actually ever saved is another matter, but the bean counters say 'economies of scale'.
    When have the bean counters ever been right?
    Presumably when there’s been a load of beans that needed counting.

    “How many beans do you make that, Dave?”
    “Three thousand, four hundred and fifty two, Alan”
    “Nice one, thanks. That’s quite a lot of beans”
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 104,602

    kle4 said:

    Taz said:

    ydoethur said:

    Gloucestershire to become a single unitary.

    That is bad news for the Forest and Stroud, possibly Gloucester itself, as the county council will be dominated by rich Fukkers from Tewkesbury and the Cotswolds who will be totally unscrupulous about redirecting all the money to where it will benefit their voters rather than where it's actually needed.

    The whole plan for the country is a f##king shambles. Pointless and costly reorganisations which will do nothing to improve local democracy or performance. Indeed I expect services to be far worse and cost far more as a result.
    I’d be fascinated by the thought processes behind these re-organisations.
    Sadly I do suspect a lot of gerrymandering.

    And of course the changes will ensure that rural areas are dominated by the adjacent urban areas so making things like new building developments easier.

    They will do almost nothing to save costs. There will be a few very senior managerial jobs that will go but because of the TUPE rules they cannot use the reorganisation as an excuse for layoffs, nor can they change pay and conditions. And given that they will still need to use existing district and county council offices because they still need to do all the jobs that are currently being done and need the office spce for that, there will be little or no real-estate savings.

    This is all being driven entirely by political considerations and is a centralising rather than decentralising move. A real retrograde step.
    I don't think centralisation is always bad and decentralising always good. I think that is often the case, so it gets treated like it is universal, with the result that sometimes people centralise but have to pretend they are not.

    I think the principle behind the drive towards unitarisation is a good one particularly given the very limited resources for local government. I don't think districts and county councils are necessary or particularly effective. Existing unitaries show that things like real estate savings and managerial reductions will likely come over time.

    Now, some of the choices for the reorganisations are certainly questionable to say the least, so some of the areas as proposed are not ideal, but the way divisions are pulled together by the LGBCE (now or in a later review) makes political gerrymandering a lot harder than people think, as they do not just follow what the local councils or a party tells them - they often the local council suggestion as a starting point, since they have the most resources to suggest an all-council proposal, but local comments can change things a lot.

    I made a public comment on one in my area, and it was cited as reason to make a fairly significant set of changes against even the wishes of the councillor who represented that area.

    It's very peculiar that the final call has been dropped now, but my contacts in this area tell me it's because Steve Reed is an arse.
    One area I gree with Richard is that gerrymandering seems to be the primary concern with some of these boundaries.

    Eg in Lancashire why on earth twin Preston with Lancaster when it takes a half hour on the M6 to get between them? Whereas Preston and South Ribble and Chorley form one contiguous urban development with a river down the middle but will now be separate Councils?

    It could not possibly be because Preston and Lancaster more solidly vote Labour while South Ribble and Chorley can often vote Tory? No, couldn't possibly be that ...

    The same almost happened with Warrington and Cheshire, lots of arguments about how it should be arranged and whether the town should be in Merseyside's development with much of the arguments based on partisan politics.
    I think it's fair to be suspicious of it, but gerrymandering is not as simple as politicians think as areas change over time anyway, and the individual parts really are heavily influenced by public comments. So I suspect any advantage gained would be fleeting.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 104,602

    ydoethur said:

    When Joe Root retires at the end of next summer, we are so epically fucked.

    99 not out was the equivalent of about 150 given the brainlessness of the rest of the lineup.

    You think he's gone after the ashes?
    He's not going until he breaks Tendulkar's record.
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 29,336

    HYUFD said:

    Farage may hope he wins by a big enough majority in Clacton to avoid a recall by election

    That's what he set out to do. I can't see Labour and the Tories blindsided by that one.
    To be cynical, would Labour want to risk the Conservatives winning a re-run in Clacton?
    In that case surely the Tories can muster 10% of vexed Clacton voters.
    Unlikely, since its 10% of the electorate and not 10% of voters.

    Would probably require multiple parties voters to sign up.
    I didn't specify 10% of Conservative voters or even voters. If the Conservatives have a hope of overturning Farage I am suggesting they have the wherewithal to rally enough angry voters to recall the MP again.
    I'm sure the likes of 3 parties can pull together 8000 votes for a recall
    Me too, but I was responding to a scenario where Labour were opposing a recall and only 1 party was supporting it.

    10% of the electorate will require more than just one parties voters to sign up realistically. Which will probably not be an issue given how divisive Farage is.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 25,010
    kle4 said:

    ydoethur said:

    When Joe Root retires at the end of next summer, we are so epically fucked.

    99 not out was the equivalent of about 150 given the brainlessness of the rest of the lineup.

    You think he's gone after the ashes?
    He's not going until he breaks Tendulkar's record.
    Presumably he'll retire from ODIs after the next one-day works cup, which I think is next year.

    How long he'll keep going in Tests I don't know.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 23,376
    kle4 said:

    Taz said:

    ydoethur said:

    Gloucestershire to become a single unitary.

    That is bad news for the Forest and Stroud, possibly Gloucester itself, as the county council will be dominated by rich Fukkers from Tewkesbury and the Cotswolds who will be totally unscrupulous about redirecting all the money to where it will benefit their voters rather than where it's actually needed.

    The whole plan for the country is a f##king shambles. Pointless and costly reorganisations which will do nothing to improve local democracy or performance. Indeed I expect services to be far worse and cost far more as a result.
    I’d be fascinated by the thought processes behind these re-organisations.
    Sadly I do suspect a lot of gerrymandering.

    And of course the changes will ensure that rural areas are dominated by the adjacent urban areas so making things like new building developments easier.

    They will do almost nothing to save costs. There will be a few very senior managerial jobs that will go but because of the TUPE rules they cannot use the reorganisation as an excuse for layoffs, nor can they change pay and conditions. And given that they will still need to use existing district and county council offices because they still need to do all the jobs that are currently being done and need the office spce for that, there will be little or no real-estate savings.

    This is all being driven entirely by political considerations and is a centralising rather than decentralising move. A real retrograde step.
    I don't think centralisation is always bad and decentralising always good. I think that is often the case, so it gets treated like it is universal, with the result that sometimes people centralise but have to pretend they are not.

    I think the principle behind the drive towards unitarisation is a good one particularly given the very limited resources for local government. I don't think districts and county councils are necessary or particularly effective. Existing unitaries show that things like real estate savings and managerial reductions will likely come over time.

    Now, some of the choices for the reorganisations are certainly questionable to say the least, so some of the areas as proposed are not ideal, but the way divisions are pulled together by the LGBCE (now or in a later review) makes political gerrymandering a lot harder than people think, as they do not just follow what the local councils or a party tells them - they often the local council suggestion as a starting point, since they have the most resources to suggest an all-council proposal, but local comments can change things a lot.

    I made a public comment on one in my area, and it was cited as reason to make a fairly significant set of changes against even the wishes of the councillor who represented that area.

    It's very peculiar that the final call has been dropped now, but my contacts in this area tell me it's because Steve Reed is an arse.
    Could be about clearing the decks before Burnham's Great Reshuffle- allow the programme to slip much more and the May 2027 elections start to look precarious.

    The other fun game (if you like that sort of fun game) is to compare what's coming out to the Redcliffe-Maud map of nearly 60 years ago. It looks like we're ending up with somewhat smaller units, and better respect for counties, but the logic is similar.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redcliffe-Maud_Report#/media/File:RedcliffeMaudReportMap1969.png
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 104,602

    kle4 said:

    Taz said:

    ydoethur said:

    Gloucestershire to become a single unitary.

    That is bad news for the Forest and Stroud, possibly Gloucester itself, as the county council will be dominated by rich Fukkers from Tewkesbury and the Cotswolds who will be totally unscrupulous about redirecting all the money to where it will benefit their voters rather than where it's actually needed.

    The whole plan for the country is a f##king shambles. Pointless and costly reorganisations which will do nothing to improve local democracy or performance. Indeed I expect services to be far worse and cost far more as a result.
    I’d be fascinated by the thought processes behind these re-organisations.
    Sadly I do suspect a lot of gerrymandering.

    And of course the changes will ensure that rural areas are dominated by the adjacent urban areas so making things like new building developments easier.

    They will do almost nothing to save costs. There will be a few very senior managerial jobs that will go but because of the TUPE rules they cannot use the reorganisation as an excuse for layoffs, nor can they change pay and conditions. And given that they will still need to use existing district and county council offices because they still need to do all the jobs that are currently being done and need the office spce for that, there will be little or no real-estate savings.

    This is all being driven entirely by political considerations and is a centralising rather than decentralising move. A real retrograde step.
    I don't think centralisation is always bad and decentralising always good. I think that is often the case, so it gets treated like it is universal, with the result that sometimes people centralise but have to pretend they are not.

    I think the principle behind the drive towards unitarisation is a good one particularly given the very limited resources for local government. I don't think districts and county councils are necessary or particularly effective. Existing unitaries show that things like real estate savings and managerial reductions will likely come over time.

    Now, some of the choices for the reorganisations are certainly questionable to say the least, so some of the areas as proposed are not ideal, but the way divisions are pulled together by the LGBCE (now or in a later review) makes political gerrymandering a lot harder than people think, as they do not just follow what the local councils or a party tells them - they often the local council suggestion as a starting point, since they have the most resources to suggest an all-council proposal, but local comments can change things a lot.

    I made a public comment on one in my area, and it was cited as reason to make a fairly significant set of changes against even the wishes of the councillor who represented that area.

    It's very peculiar that the final call has been dropped now, but my contacts in this area tell me it's because Steve Reed is an arse.
    Could be about clearing the decks before Burnham's Great Reshuffle- allow the programme to slip much more and the May 2027 elections start to look precarious.

    The other fun game (if you like that sort of fun game) is to compare what's coming out to the Redcliffe-Maud map of nearly 60 years ago. It looks like we're ending up with somewhat smaller units, and better respect for counties, but the logic is similar.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redcliffe-Maud_Report#/media/File:RedcliffeMaudReportMap1969.png
    I like it. Aesthetically at least.
  • MelonBMelonB Posts: 17,570
    edited July 16

    HYUFD said:

    Farage may hope he wins by a big enough majority in Clacton to avoid a recall by election

    That's what he set out to do. I can't see Labour and the Tories blindsided by that one.
    To be cynical, would Labour want to risk the Conservatives winning a re-run in Clacton?
    In that case surely the Tories can muster 10% of vexed Clacton voters.
    Unlikely, since its 10% of the electorate and not 10% of voters.

    Would probably require multiple parties voters to sign up.
    I didn't specify 10% of Conservative voters or even voters. If the Conservatives have a hope of overturning Farage I am suggesting they have the wherewithal to rally enough angry voters to recall the MP again.
    I'm sure the likes of 3 parties can pull together 8000 votes for a recall
    Me too, but I was responding to a scenario where Labour were opposing a recall and only 1 party was supporting it.

    10% of the electorate will require more than just one parties voters to sign up realistically. Which will probably not be an issue given how divisive Farage is.
    When Farage wins the by-election against Binface the other parties can still come away with a win, because they can berate him for wasting taxpayers’ money on a stunt.

    When Farage gets recalled and faces a second by-election, which he will also win even if more narrowly, then it gives him a perfect way back to credibility. He can now point the wasting taxpayers money at the other parties (even if in reality it’s 10% of his electorate) and will start to look invincible. “The establishment tried to bring me down twice but the good people of Clacton weren’t fooled”.

    The only potential beneficiary of a recall election is the conservatives, if they get very lucky and have the support of other parties. If you’re Labour or the Lib Dems, why would you go along with this? Worst case you bolster Reform. Best case you give the Tories a way back. And you probably end up with the election, if not of Farage, then of a Tory on the far, Reform-adjacent nationalist wing of that party.

    I suppose for the Lib Dems that possibly makes some sense, given their strategy to further toxify the Tory brand. But not for Labour.
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 29,336

    kle4 said:

    Taz said:

    ydoethur said:

    Gloucestershire to become a single unitary.

    That is bad news for the Forest and Stroud, possibly Gloucester itself, as the county council will be dominated by rich Fukkers from Tewkesbury and the Cotswolds who will be totally unscrupulous about redirecting all the money to where it will benefit their voters rather than where it's actually needed.

    The whole plan for the country is a f##king shambles. Pointless and costly reorganisations which will do nothing to improve local democracy or performance. Indeed I expect services to be far worse and cost far more as a result.
    I’d be fascinated by the thought processes behind these re-organisations.
    Sadly I do suspect a lot of gerrymandering.

    And of course the changes will ensure that rural areas are dominated by the adjacent urban areas so making things like new building developments easier.

    They will do almost nothing to save costs. There will be a few very senior managerial jobs that will go but because of the TUPE rules they cannot use the reorganisation as an excuse for layoffs, nor can they change pay and conditions. And given that they will still need to use existing district and county council offices because they still need to do all the jobs that are currently being done and need the office spce for that, there will be little or no real-estate savings.

    This is all being driven entirely by political considerations and is a centralising rather than decentralising move. A real retrograde step.
    I don't think centralisation is always bad and decentralising always good. I think that is often the case, so it gets treated like it is universal, with the result that sometimes people centralise but have to pretend they are not.

    I think the principle behind the drive towards unitarisation is a good one particularly given the very limited resources for local government. I don't think districts and county councils are necessary or particularly effective. Existing unitaries show that things like real estate savings and managerial reductions will likely come over time.

    Now, some of the choices for the reorganisations are certainly questionable to say the least, so some of the areas as proposed are not ideal, but the way divisions are pulled together by the LGBCE (now or in a later review) makes political gerrymandering a lot harder than people think, as they do not just follow what the local councils or a party tells them - they often the local council suggestion as a starting point, since they have the most resources to suggest an all-council proposal, but local comments can change things a lot.

    I made a public comment on one in my area, and it was cited as reason to make a fairly significant set of changes against even the wishes of the councillor who represented that area.

    It's very peculiar that the final call has been dropped now, but my contacts in this area tell me it's because Steve Reed is an arse.
    Could be about clearing the decks before Burnham's Great Reshuffle- allow the programme to slip much more and the May 2027 elections start to look precarious.

    The other fun game (if you like that sort of fun game) is to compare what's coming out to the Redcliffe-Maud map of nearly 60 years ago. It looks like we're ending up with somewhat smaller units, and better respect for counties, but the logic is similar.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redcliffe-Maud_Report#/media/File:RedcliffeMaudReportMap1969.png
    Cheshire/Merseyside/GM looks quite different but they've kind of been done in past years anyway.

    Lancashire looks almost the same, except the RedcliffeMaud one twins Preston with Leyland [South Ribble] and Chorley, which as I said before is a contiguous urban development (even more now than it was 60 years ago) while today's proposal separates them and twins Preston with Lancaster, with which it has nothing other than party affiliation in common.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 73,254
    Looks like another evening ahead of 'America has totally lost its mind'.

  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 73,254
    Meet the new boss, same as the old boss...


    Steven Swinford
    @Steven_Swinford

    Exclusive:

    Andy Burnham is facing a revolt from his core support on the Labour left over his plans to appoint Shabana Mahmood over Ed Miliband as chancellor amid claims that she lacks an economic vision and is too divisive for the role

    Burnham is expected to confirm Mahmood, the home secretary, as his chancellor on Monday after being warned that Miliband risks becoming a lightning rod for criticism of the government

    However, Mahmood, who is on the right of the Labour Party, has never held an economic position in government and has said relatively little about her fiscal views in the past. Her hardline immigration reforms have proved particularly contentious on the left

    A senior ally of Burnham said: “Shabana has no sense of the economics. It’s just not something she’s ever spoken about. She’s not collaborative. It’s not clear how she would drive the machine.”


    https://x.com/Steven_Swinford/status/2077860858437288181
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 73,254
    The King of the North has not even kissed hands and already Labour is splitting over whether a radical like Ed M should be CoE or a continuity Starmer/Reeves figure like Mahmoud.

    FFS.
  • FishingFishing Posts: 6,417
    edited July 16

    Meet the new boss, same as the old boss...


    Steven Swinford
    @Steven_Swinford

    Exclusive:

    Andy Burnham is facing a revolt from his core support on the Labour left over his plans to appoint Shabana Mahmood over Ed Miliband as chancellor amid claims that she lacks an economic vision and is too divisive for the role

    Burnham is expected to confirm Mahmood, the home secretary, as his chancellor on Monday after being warned that Miliband risks becoming a lightning rod for criticism of the government

    However, Mahmood, who is on the right of the Labour Party, has never held an economic position in government and has said relatively little about her fiscal views in the past. Her hardline immigration reforms have proved particularly contentious on the left

    A senior ally of Burnham said: “Shabana has no sense of the economics. It’s just not something she’s ever spoken about. She’s not collaborative. It’s not clear how she would drive the machine.”

    I'd rather somebody who has no idea how to drive than someone who would drive us off a cliff.

    A dismal choice, but what we face with the current government, over and over again.

  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 34,783
    kle4 said:

    Taz said:

    ydoethur said:

    Gloucestershire to become a single unitary.

    That is bad news for the Forest and Stroud, possibly Gloucester itself, as the county council will be dominated by rich Fukkers from Tewkesbury and the Cotswolds who will be totally unscrupulous about redirecting all the money to where it will benefit their voters rather than where it's actually needed.

    The whole plan for the country is a f##king shambles. Pointless and costly reorganisations which will do nothing to improve local democracy or performance. Indeed I expect services to be far worse and cost far more as a result.
    I’d be fascinated by the thought processes behind these re-organisations.
    1. Saving money
    2. Cutting costs
    3. Rinse and repeat...

    Whether money is actually ever saved is another matter, but the bean counters say 'economies of scale'.
    When have the bean counters ever been right?
    My council, perhaps to justify it's own existence, has said unitarisation enabled saving money and cutting costs which was essential, and unlikely to happen without it. It was done against the wishes of most of the preceding councils and the policy of the Leader's own national party at the time, but they must have changed their tune as they put her in the Lords several years later.

    It's not the cure to all ills, and can be done in a hamfisted way, but this is an area I support the motive of the government at least.

    I'm sure there will be some legal challenges, but on its face that sounds hard to succeed - there are criteria for areas the minister will suppose to have followed, but I'm sure the language was loose around essentially making judgement calls, so it would be easy to defend as reasonable even if everyone hates it.
    I would love to know how they are going to save money - at least any that would be worth all the chaos of the reorganisation. As i mentioned, job losses will be practuically zero because districts and counties did very different jobs before the reorg and those jobs will still need to be done afterwards. Real estate savings will be similarly almost zero because of the continuing need for office space for all those people.

    There will be a few savings in HR but very few I ssupect as the new HR departments will be having to deal with so many more people.

    There will be a few senior managers and heads of department going but that will be it.

    There have been little or no savings made with the rpevious moves to unitary authorities and since the TUPE rules were adopted for local givernment in 2008 there will be even less scope for savings.

    I do believe that in a few years we will look back and realise that, far from saving money, the reorg actually cost money.
  • UnpopularUnpopular Posts: 1,007
    MelonB said:

    HYUFD said:

    Farage may hope he wins by a big enough majority in Clacton to avoid a recall by election

    That's what he set out to do. I can't see Labour and the Tories blindsided by that one.
    To be cynical, would Labour want to risk the Conservatives winning a re-run in Clacton?
    In that case surely the Tories can muster 10% of vexed Clacton voters.
    Unlikely, since its 10% of the electorate and not 10% of voters.

    Would probably require multiple parties voters to sign up.
    I didn't specify 10% of Conservative voters or even voters. If the Conservatives have a hope of overturning Farage I am suggesting they have the wherewithal to rally enough angry voters to recall the MP again.
    I'm sure the likes of 3 parties can pull together 8000 votes for a recall
    Me too, but I was responding to a scenario where Labour were opposing a recall and only 1 party was supporting it.

    10% of the electorate will require more than just one parties voters to sign up realistically. Which will probably not be an issue given how divisive Farage is.
    When Farage wins the by-election against Binface the other parties can still come away with a win, because they can berate him for wasting taxpayers’ money on a stunt.

    When Farage gets recalled and faces a second by-election, which he will also win even if more narrowly, then it gives him a perfect way back to credibility. He can now point the wasting taxpayers money at the other parties (even if in reality it’s 10% of his electorate) and will start to look invincible. “The establishment tried to bring me down twice but the good people of Clacton weren’t fooled”.

    The only potential beneficiary of a recall election is the conservatives, if they get very lucky and have the support of other parties. If you’re Labour or the Lib Dems, why would you go along with this? Worst case you bolster Reform. Best case you give the Tories a way back. And you probably end up with the election, if not of Farage, then of a Tory on the far, Reform-adjacent nationalist wing of that party.

    I suppose for the Lib Dems that possibly makes some sense, given their strategy to further toxify the Tory brand. But not for Labour.
    Support the weak against the strong, surely? If Reform are ascendant then boost the Tories, if the Tories start to look like a credible opposition, the aim your fire at them! Classic British Government policy!
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 90,872
    This is, to some extent at least, fair comment.

    Particularly when you recall that Park and Dowding were effectively sacked for ensuring we won the Battle of Britain.

    For those who worry too much about infighting inside the Ukrainian government - read Churchill's history of the World War II. Munitions ministers' resignations, defense and navy ministers dramas, egos of top generals, their dismissals and appointments - a lot of things will look familiar...
    https://x.com/k_sonin/status/2077827472452686216
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 34,783
    edited July 16

    Taz said:

    ydoethur said:

    Gloucestershire to become a single unitary.

    That is bad news for the Forest and Stroud, possibly Gloucester itself, as the county council will be dominated by rich Fukkers from Tewkesbury and the Cotswolds who will be totally unscrupulous about redirecting all the money to where it will benefit their voters rather than where it's actually needed.

    The whole plan for the country is a f##king shambles. Pointless and costly reorganisations which will do nothing to improve local democracy or performance. Indeed I expect services to be far worse and cost far more as a result.
    I’d be fascinated by the thought processes behind these re-organisations.
    Sadly I do suspect a lot of gerrymandering.

    And of course the changes will ensure that rural areas are dominated by the adjacent urban areas so making things like new building developments easier.

    They will do almost nothing to save costs. There will be a few very senior managerial jobs that will go but because of the TUPE rules they cannot use the reorganisation as an excuse for layoffs, nor can they change pay and conditions. And given that they will still need to use existing district and county council offices because they still need to do all the jobs that are currently being done and need the office spce for that, there will be little or no real-estate savings.

    This is all being driven entirely by political considerations and is a centralising rather than decentralising move. A real retrograde step.
    Given we desperately need developments and that you (rightly) welcome migration which means we need even more developments, then why are you saying it will make new developments easier as if it is a bad thing?
    Because what it actually means is people living in one area deciding that all those developments should be in another area - preferably some distance away from them. The urban areas have large swathes of brownfield sites which should be redeveloped. But that is more expensive both for the developers and the local authorities. So now they will have nice large areas of green field they can build on instead. It is simply supercharged NIMBYism.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 37,189
    algarkirk said:

    HYUFD said:

    Farage may hope he wins by a big enough majority in Clacton to avoid a recall by election

    That's what he set out to do. I can't see Labour and the Tories blindsided by that one.

    HYUFD said:

    Farage may hope he wins by a big enough majority in Clacton to avoid a recall by election

    That's what he set out to do. I can't see Labour and the Tories blindsided by that one.
    It's an open question what the other parties would prefer to do with Farage, assuming he is re-elected at his stunt election.

    First hurdle: he needs a finding against him from the commissioner.
    Next issue: the committee needs to decide what if any penalty to impose; ie whether to impose enough to make possible a recall.
    Next issue: if they do impose such a penalty, it's then a matter for the initiative of the Clacton electors.

    Political question: would the parties feel that the best course is to allow all the bad publicity of a finding by the commissioner, but not encourage 10% of the voters to sign a recall petition. A second by election, which Farage may well win, would give Reform chance to convince gullible voters that Farage is being put in double jeopardy (he isn't of course) and that the establishment is out to get him.
    The other political question is this: if the likely result of a second by-election is either a Reform or Conservative win, then what is in it for Labour and the LibDems? Why should they risk strengthening the Conservative Party?
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 34,783
    kle4 said:

    Taz said:

    ydoethur said:

    Gloucestershire to become a single unitary.

    That is bad news for the Forest and Stroud, possibly Gloucester itself, as the county council will be dominated by rich Fukkers from Tewkesbury and the Cotswolds who will be totally unscrupulous about redirecting all the money to where it will benefit their voters rather than where it's actually needed.

    The whole plan for the country is a f##king shambles. Pointless and costly reorganisations which will do nothing to improve local democracy or performance. Indeed I expect services to be far worse and cost far more as a result.
    I’d be fascinated by the thought processes behind these re-organisations.
    Sadly I do suspect a lot of gerrymandering.

    And of course the changes will ensure that rural areas are dominated by the adjacent urban areas so making things like new building developments easier.

    They will do almost nothing to save costs. There will be a few very senior managerial jobs that will go but because of the TUPE rules they cannot use the reorganisation as an excuse for layoffs, nor can they change pay and conditions. And given that they will still need to use existing district and county council offices because they still need to do all the jobs that are currently being done and need the office spce for that, there will be little or no real-estate savings.

    This is all being driven entirely by political considerations and is a centralising rather than decentralising move. A real retrograde step.
    I don't think centralisation is always bad and decentralising always good. I think that is often the case, so it gets treated like it is universal, with the result that sometimes people centralise but have to pretend they are not.

    I think the principle behind the drive towards unitarisation is a good one particularly given the very limited resources for local government. I don't think districts and county councils are necessary or particularly effective. Existing unitaries show that things like real estate savings and managerial reductions will likely come over time.

    Now, some of the choices for the reorganisations are certainly questionable to say the least, so some of the areas as proposed are not ideal, but the way divisions are pulled together by the LGBCE (now or in a later review) makes political gerrymandering a lot harder than people think, as they do not just follow what the local councils or a party tells them - they often the local council suggestion as a starting point, since they have the most resources to suggest an all-council proposal, but local comments can change things a lot.

    I made a public comment on one in my area, and it was cited as reason to make a fairly significant set of changes against even the wishes of the councillor who represented that area.

    It's very peculiar that the final call has been dropped now, but my contacts in this area tell me it's because Steve Reed is an arse.
    Centralisation is bad on principle. It moves democratic power further up the food chain away from the actual electorate.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 40,934
    kle4 said:

    Taz said:

    ydoethur said:

    Gloucestershire to become a single unitary.

    That is bad news for the Forest and Stroud, possibly Gloucester itself, as the county council will be dominated by rich Fukkers from Tewkesbury and the Cotswolds who will be totally unscrupulous about redirecting all the money to where it will benefit their voters rather than where it's actually needed.

    The whole plan for the country is a f##king shambles. Pointless and costly reorganisations which will do nothing to improve local democracy or performance. Indeed I expect services to be far worse and cost far more as a result.
    I’d be fascinated by the thought processes behind these re-organisations.
    Sadly I do suspect a lot of gerrymandering.

    And of course the changes will ensure that rural areas are dominated by the adjacent urban areas so making things like new building developments easier.

    They will do almost nothing to save costs. There will be a few very senior managerial jobs that will go but because of the TUPE rules they cannot use the reorganisation as an excuse for layoffs, nor can they change pay and conditions. And given that they will still need to use existing district and county council offices because they still need to do all the jobs that are currently being done and need the office spce for that, there will be little or no real-estate savings.

    This is all being driven entirely by political considerations and is a centralising rather than decentralising move. A real retrograde step.
    I don't think centralisation is always bad and decentralising always good. I think that is often the case, so it gets treated like it is universal, with the result that sometimes people centralise but have to pretend they are not.

    I think the principle behind the drive towards unitarisation is a good one particularly given the very limited resources for local government. I don't think districts and county councils are necessary or particularly effective. Existing unitaries show that things like real estate savings and managerial reductions will likely come over time.

    Now, some of the choices for the reorganisations are certainly questionable to say the least, so some of the areas as proposed are not ideal, but the way divisions are pulled together by the LGBCE (now or in a later review) makes political gerrymandering a lot harder than people think, as they do not just follow what the local councils or a party tells them - they often the local council suggestion as a starting point, since they have the most resources to suggest an all-council proposal, but local comments can change things a lot.

    I made a public comment on one in my area, and it was cited as reason to make a fairly significant set of changes against even the wishes of the councillor who represented that area.

    It's very peculiar that the final call has been dropped now, but my contacts in this area tell me it's because Steve Reed is an arse.
    Most lefties will be in favour of centralisation because it suits their agenda.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 90,872

    Looks like another evening ahead of 'America has totally lost its mind'.

    Not totally.

    Jon Ossoff: Here's what's going to happen tonight. The world's most famous sore loser will deliver a prime time presidential sour grapes address to pursue his six year old grievances about the 2020 election.
    https://x.com/BlueGeorgia/status/2077806246451716280
  • Daveyboy1961Daveyboy1961 Posts: 5,583

    algarkirk said:

    HYUFD said:

    Farage may hope he wins by a big enough majority in Clacton to avoid a recall by election

    That's what he set out to do. I can't see Labour and the Tories blindsided by that one.

    HYUFD said:

    Farage may hope he wins by a big enough majority in Clacton to avoid a recall by election

    That's what he set out to do. I can't see Labour and the Tories blindsided by that one.
    It's an open question what the other parties would prefer to do with Farage, assuming he is re-elected at his stunt election.

    First hurdle: he needs a finding against him from the commissioner.
    Next issue: the committee needs to decide what if any penalty to impose; ie whether to impose enough to make possible a recall.
    Next issue: if they do impose such a penalty, it's then a matter for the initiative of the Clacton electors.

    Political question: would the parties feel that the best course is to allow all the bad publicity of a finding by the commissioner, but not encourage 10% of the voters to sign a recall petition. A second by election, which Farage may well win, would give Reform chance to convince gullible voters that Farage is being put in double jeopardy (he isn't of course) and that the establishment is out to get him.
    The other political question is this: if the likely result of a second by-election is either a Reform or Conservative win, then what is in it for Labour and the LibDems? Why should they risk strengthening the Conservative Party?
    The plus 1 MP for the Tories is a small price to pay for kicking out grifter Farage.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 37,189
    FF43 said:

    FF43 said:

    RobD said:

    tlg86 said:

    https://x.com/SkyNews/status/2077742798866964837

    Sky News @SkyNews
    Liberal Democrats leader Ed Davey has called on FIFA to ban the six Argentine players who celebrated with the "Falklands are Argentine" banner from playing in Sunday's final.

    Ed Davey has told Sky News he has written to the president Gianni Infantino.

    A ridiculous overreaction.
    Ed Davey's example is an exact equivalent that did lead to a one match ban for the players involved so NOT doing the same with the a Argentinian players would be two-tier. FIFA isn't consistent about anything so won't happen of course, but to the extent anyone cares about principle, they should do this.
    Admittedly by UEFA, not FIFA, but the event took place outside the stadium, so arguably the Argentinian incident is worse.

    Spain captain Alvaro Morata and team-mate Rodri have been banned for one game by Uefa after they chanted "Gibraltar is Spanish" during their side's Euro 2024 victory celebrations.

    The Gibraltar Football Association (GFA) made an official complaint about the celebrations to European football's governing body before the pair were charged.

    Uefa has now suspended Morata and Rodri "for failing to comply with the general principles of conduct, for violating the basic rules of decent conduct, for using sporting events for manifestations of a non-sporting nature and for bringing the sport of football, and Uefa in particular, into disrepute".

    They are banned for Spain's next game, which is against Serbia on Thursday, 5 September
    .

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/articles/c8xle8e7ngno
    Indeed. But coming from Ed Davey, or Keir Starmer for that matter, it just looks like sour grapes. It won't benefit England. It might increase anti-British feeling in Argentina. There is no upside for us. Politicians should STFU.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 32,912
    edited July 16
    Andy_JS said:

    kle4 said:

    Taz said:

    ydoethur said:

    Gloucestershire to become a single unitary.

    That is bad news for the Forest and Stroud, possibly Gloucester itself, as the county council will be dominated by rich Fukkers from Tewkesbury and the Cotswolds who will be totally unscrupulous about redirecting all the money to where it will benefit their voters rather than where it's actually needed.

    The whole plan for the country is a f##king shambles. Pointless and costly reorganisations which will do nothing to improve local democracy or performance. Indeed I expect services to be far worse and cost far more as a result.
    I’d be fascinated by the thought processes behind these re-organisations.
    Sadly I do suspect a lot of gerrymandering.

    And of course the changes will ensure that rural areas are dominated by the adjacent urban areas so making things like new building developments easier.

    They will do almost nothing to save costs. There will be a few very senior managerial jobs that will go but because of the TUPE rules they cannot use the reorganisation as an excuse for layoffs, nor can they change pay and conditions. And given that they will still need to use existing district and county council offices because they still need to do all the jobs that are currently being done and need the office spce for that, there will be little or no real-estate savings.

    This is all being driven entirely by political considerations and is a centralising rather than decentralising move. A real retrograde step.
    I don't think centralisation is always bad and decentralising always good. I think that is often the case, so it gets treated like it is universal, with the result that sometimes people centralise but have to pretend they are not.

    I think the principle behind the drive towards unitarisation is a good one particularly given the very limited resources for local government. I don't think districts and county councils are necessary or particularly effective. Existing unitaries show that things like real estate savings and managerial reductions will likely come over time.

    Now, some of the choices for the reorganisations are certainly questionable to say the least, so some of the areas as proposed are not ideal, but the way divisions are pulled together by the LGBCE (now or in a later review) makes political gerrymandering a lot harder than people think, as they do not just follow what the local councils or a party tells them - they often the local council suggestion as a starting point, since they have the most resources to suggest an all-council proposal, but local comments can change things a lot.

    I made a public comment on one in my area, and it was cited as reason to make a fairly significant set of changes against even the wishes of the councillor who represented that area.

    It's very peculiar that the final call has been dropped now, but my contacts in this area tell me it's because Steve Reed is an arse.
    Most lefties will be in favour of centralisation because it suits their agenda.
    Except that the new PM is wholly in favour whilst Badenoch is opposed.
    And the Blessed Margaret was vehemently against Local Authorities who didn't toe the line.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 104,602

    kle4 said:

    Taz said:

    ydoethur said:

    Gloucestershire to become a single unitary.

    That is bad news for the Forest and Stroud, possibly Gloucester itself, as the county council will be dominated by rich Fukkers from Tewkesbury and the Cotswolds who will be totally unscrupulous about redirecting all the money to where it will benefit their voters rather than where it's actually needed.

    The whole plan for the country is a f##king shambles. Pointless and costly reorganisations which will do nothing to improve local democracy or performance. Indeed I expect services to be far worse and cost far more as a result.
    I’d be fascinated by the thought processes behind these re-organisations.
    1. Saving money
    2. Cutting costs
    3. Rinse and repeat...

    Whether money is actually ever saved is another matter, but the bean counters say 'economies of scale'.
    When have the bean counters ever been right?
    My council, perhaps to justify it's own existence, has said unitarisation enabled saving money and cutting costs which was essential, and unlikely to happen without it. It was done against the wishes of most of the preceding councils and the policy of the Leader's own national party at the time, but they must have changed their tune as they put her in the Lords several years later.

    It's not the cure to all ills, and can be done in a hamfisted way, but this is an area I support the motive of the government at least.

    I'm sure there will be some legal challenges, but on its face that sounds hard to succeed - there are criteria for areas the minister will suppose to have followed, but I'm sure the language was loose around essentially making judgement calls, so it would be easy to defend as reasonable even if everyone hates it.
    I would love to know how they are going to save money - at least any that would be worth all the chaos of the reorganisation. As i mentioned, job losses will be practuically zero because districts and counties did very different jobs before the reorg and those jobs will still need to be done afterwards. Real estate savings will be similarly almost zero because of the continuing need for office space for all those people.

    There will be a few savings in HR but very few I ssupect as the new HR departments will be having to deal with so many more people.

    There will be a few senior managers and heads of department going but that will be it.

    There have been little or no savings made with the rpevious moves to unitary authorities and since the TUPE rules were adopted for local givernment in 2008 there will be even less scope for savings.

    I do believe that in a few years we will look back and realise that, far from saving money, the reorg actually cost money.
    We shall see. I think it has worked before and can work again, but it'll take 5 years to really know.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 90,872
    Andy_JS said:

    kle4 said:

    Taz said:

    ydoethur said:

    Gloucestershire to become a single unitary.

    That is bad news for the Forest and Stroud, possibly Gloucester itself, as the county council will be dominated by rich Fukkers from Tewkesbury and the Cotswolds who will be totally unscrupulous about redirecting all the money to where it will benefit their voters rather than where it's actually needed.

    The whole plan for the country is a f##king shambles. Pointless and costly reorganisations which will do nothing to improve local democracy or performance. Indeed I expect services to be far worse and cost far more as a result.
    I’d be fascinated by the thought processes behind these re-organisations.
    Sadly I do suspect a lot of gerrymandering.

    And of course the changes will ensure that rural areas are dominated by the adjacent urban areas so making things like new building developments easier.

    They will do almost nothing to save costs. There will be a few very senior managerial jobs that will go but because of the TUPE rules they cannot use the reorganisation as an excuse for layoffs, nor can they change pay and conditions. And given that they will still need to use existing district and county council offices because they still need to do all the jobs that are currently being done and need the office spce for that, there will be little or no real-estate savings.

    This is all being driven entirely by political considerations and is a centralising rather than decentralising move. A real retrograde step.
    I don't think centralisation is always bad and decentralising always good. I think that is often the case, so it gets treated like it is universal, with the result that sometimes people centralise but have to pretend they are not.

    I think the principle behind the drive towards unitarisation is a good one particularly given the very limited resources for local government. I don't think districts and county councils are necessary or particularly effective. Existing unitaries show that things like real estate savings and managerial reductions will likely come over time.

    Now, some of the choices for the reorganisations are certainly questionable to say the least, so some of the areas as proposed are not ideal, but the way divisions are pulled together by the LGBCE (now or in a later review) makes political gerrymandering a lot harder than people think, as they do not just follow what the local councils or a party tells them - they often the local council suggestion as a starting point, since they have the most resources to suggest an all-council proposal, but local comments can change things a lot.

    I made a public comment on one in my area, and it was cited as reason to make a fairly significant set of changes against even the wishes of the councillor who represented that area.

    It's very peculiar that the final call has been dropped now, but my contacts in this area tell me it's because Steve Reed is an arse.
    Most lefties will be in favour of centralisation because it suits their agenda.
    Margaret Thatcher was arguably the most centralising PM we've had in my lifetime.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 34,783
    dixiedean said:

    Andy_JS said:

    kle4 said:

    Taz said:

    ydoethur said:

    Gloucestershire to become a single unitary.

    That is bad news for the Forest and Stroud, possibly Gloucester itself, as the county council will be dominated by rich Fukkers from Tewkesbury and the Cotswolds who will be totally unscrupulous about redirecting all the money to where it will benefit their voters rather than where it's actually needed.

    The whole plan for the country is a f##king shambles. Pointless and costly reorganisations which will do nothing to improve local democracy or performance. Indeed I expect services to be far worse and cost far more as a result.
    I’d be fascinated by the thought processes behind these re-organisations.
    Sadly I do suspect a lot of gerrymandering.

    And of course the changes will ensure that rural areas are dominated by the adjacent urban areas so making things like new building developments easier.

    They will do almost nothing to save costs. There will be a few very senior managerial jobs that will go but because of the TUPE rules they cannot use the reorganisation as an excuse for layoffs, nor can they change pay and conditions. And given that they will still need to use existing district and county council offices because they still need to do all the jobs that are currently being done and need the office spce for that, there will be little or no real-estate savings.

    This is all being driven entirely by political considerations and is a centralising rather than decentralising move. A real retrograde step.
    I don't think centralisation is always bad and decentralising always good. I think that is often the case, so it gets treated like it is universal, with the result that sometimes people centralise but have to pretend they are not.

    I think the principle behind the drive towards unitarisation is a good one particularly given the very limited resources for local government. I don't think districts and county councils are necessary or particularly effective. Existing unitaries show that things like real estate savings and managerial reductions will likely come over time.

    Now, some of the choices for the reorganisations are certainly questionable to say the least, so some of the areas as proposed are not ideal, but the way divisions are pulled together by the LGBCE (now or in a later review) makes political gerrymandering a lot harder than people think, as they do not just follow what the local councils or a party tells them - they often the local council suggestion as a starting point, since they have the most resources to suggest an all-council proposal, but local comments can change things a lot.

    I made a public comment on one in my area, and it was cited as reason to make a fairly significant set of changes against even the wishes of the councillor who represented that area.

    It's very peculiar that the final call has been dropped now, but my contacts in this area tell me it's because Steve Reed is an arse.
    Most lefties will be in favour of centralisation because it suits their agenda.
    Except that the new PM is wholly in favour whilst Badenoch is opposed.
    And the Blessed Margaret was vehemently against Local Authorities who didn't toe the line.
    So Burnham is supporting centralisation just as Andy says. These reorganisations are all about centralisation.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 104,602
    edited July 16
    Nigelb said:

    Looks like another evening ahead of 'America has totally lost its mind'.

    Not totally.

    Jon Ossoff: Here's what's going to happen tonight. The world's most famous sore loser will deliver a prime time presidential sour grapes address to pursue his six year old grievances about the 2020 election.
    https://x.com/BlueGeorgia/status/2077806246451716280
    I do think losing in 2020 drove Trump a little barmy. His obsession and vindictiveness really cranked up, as he cannot accept he could possibly ever have lost. It drove him to insist people call him 'the president' when out of office (not President Trump, as americans are wont to do), and over time force out almost everyone who refused to say that he won in 2020.

    It has distracted him with seeking revenge when, conceivably, he could have got the GOP to focus on things that were more popular.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 57,522
    Nigelb said:

    Andy_JS said:

    kle4 said:

    Taz said:

    ydoethur said:

    Gloucestershire to become a single unitary.

    That is bad news for the Forest and Stroud, possibly Gloucester itself, as the county council will be dominated by rich Fukkers from Tewkesbury and the Cotswolds who will be totally unscrupulous about redirecting all the money to where it will benefit their voters rather than where it's actually needed.

    The whole plan for the country is a f##king shambles. Pointless and costly reorganisations which will do nothing to improve local democracy or performance. Indeed I expect services to be far worse and cost far more as a result.
    I’d be fascinated by the thought processes behind these re-organisations.
    Sadly I do suspect a lot of gerrymandering.

    And of course the changes will ensure that rural areas are dominated by the adjacent urban areas so making things like new building developments easier.

    They will do almost nothing to save costs. There will be a few very senior managerial jobs that will go but because of the TUPE rules they cannot use the reorganisation as an excuse for layoffs, nor can they change pay and conditions. And given that they will still need to use existing district and county council offices because they still need to do all the jobs that are currently being done and need the office spce for that, there will be little or no real-estate savings.

    This is all being driven entirely by political considerations and is a centralising rather than decentralising move. A real retrograde step.
    I don't think centralisation is always bad and decentralising always good. I think that is often the case, so it gets treated like it is universal, with the result that sometimes people centralise but have to pretend they are not.

    I think the principle behind the drive towards unitarisation is a good one particularly given the very limited resources for local government. I don't think districts and county councils are necessary or particularly effective. Existing unitaries show that things like real estate savings and managerial reductions will likely come over time.

    Now, some of the choices for the reorganisations are certainly questionable to say the least, so some of the areas as proposed are not ideal, but the way divisions are pulled together by the LGBCE (now or in a later review) makes political gerrymandering a lot harder than people think, as they do not just follow what the local councils or a party tells them - they often the local council suggestion as a starting point, since they have the most resources to suggest an all-council proposal, but local comments can change things a lot.

    I made a public comment on one in my area, and it was cited as reason to make a fairly significant set of changes against even the wishes of the councillor who represented that area.

    It's very peculiar that the final call has been dropped now, but my contacts in this area tell me it's because Steve Reed is an arse.
    Most lefties will be in favour of centralisation because it suits their agenda.
    Margaret Thatcher was arguably the most centralising PM we've had in my lifetime.
    She scrapped the GLC because she didn't like Livingstone.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 104,602

    dixiedean said:

    Andy_JS said:

    kle4 said:

    Taz said:

    ydoethur said:

    Gloucestershire to become a single unitary.

    That is bad news for the Forest and Stroud, possibly Gloucester itself, as the county council will be dominated by rich Fukkers from Tewkesbury and the Cotswolds who will be totally unscrupulous about redirecting all the money to where it will benefit their voters rather than where it's actually needed.

    The whole plan for the country is a f##king shambles. Pointless and costly reorganisations which will do nothing to improve local democracy or performance. Indeed I expect services to be far worse and cost far more as a result.
    I’d be fascinated by the thought processes behind these re-organisations.
    Sadly I do suspect a lot of gerrymandering.

    And of course the changes will ensure that rural areas are dominated by the adjacent urban areas so making things like new building developments easier.

    They will do almost nothing to save costs. There will be a few very senior managerial jobs that will go but because of the TUPE rules they cannot use the reorganisation as an excuse for layoffs, nor can they change pay and conditions. And given that they will still need to use existing district and county council offices because they still need to do all the jobs that are currently being done and need the office spce for that, there will be little or no real-estate savings.

    This is all being driven entirely by political considerations and is a centralising rather than decentralising move. A real retrograde step.
    I don't think centralisation is always bad and decentralising always good. I think that is often the case, so it gets treated like it is universal, with the result that sometimes people centralise but have to pretend they are not.

    I think the principle behind the drive towards unitarisation is a good one particularly given the very limited resources for local government. I don't think districts and county councils are necessary or particularly effective. Existing unitaries show that things like real estate savings and managerial reductions will likely come over time.

    Now, some of the choices for the reorganisations are certainly questionable to say the least, so some of the areas as proposed are not ideal, but the way divisions are pulled together by the LGBCE (now or in a later review) makes political gerrymandering a lot harder than people think, as they do not just follow what the local councils or a party tells them - they often the local council suggestion as a starting point, since they have the most resources to suggest an all-council proposal, but local comments can change things a lot.

    I made a public comment on one in my area, and it was cited as reason to make a fairly significant set of changes against even the wishes of the councillor who represented that area.

    It's very peculiar that the final call has been dropped now, but my contacts in this area tell me it's because Steve Reed is an arse.
    Most lefties will be in favour of centralisation because it suits their agenda.
    Except that the new PM is wholly in favour whilst Badenoch is opposed.
    And the Blessed Margaret was vehemently against Local Authorities who didn't toe the line.
    So Burnham is supporting centralisation just as Andy says. These reorganisations are all about centralisation.
    And sometimes that works.

    It runs counter to general rhetoric from most parties about what they want to see, more power at local levels, but that dissonance is quite normal for them.
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 29,336

    Taz said:

    ydoethur said:

    Gloucestershire to become a single unitary.

    That is bad news for the Forest and Stroud, possibly Gloucester itself, as the county council will be dominated by rich Fukkers from Tewkesbury and the Cotswolds who will be totally unscrupulous about redirecting all the money to where it will benefit their voters rather than where it's actually needed.

    The whole plan for the country is a f##king shambles. Pointless and costly reorganisations which will do nothing to improve local democracy or performance. Indeed I expect services to be far worse and cost far more as a result.
    I’d be fascinated by the thought processes behind these re-organisations.
    Sadly I do suspect a lot of gerrymandering.

    And of course the changes will ensure that rural areas are dominated by the adjacent urban areas so making things like new building developments easier.

    They will do almost nothing to save costs. There will be a few very senior managerial jobs that will go but because of the TUPE rules they cannot use the reorganisation as an excuse for layoffs, nor can they change pay and conditions. And given that they will still need to use existing district and county council offices because they still need to do all the jobs that are currently being done and need the office spce for that, there will be little or no real-estate savings.

    This is all being driven entirely by political considerations and is a centralising rather than decentralising move. A real retrograde step.
    Given we desperately need developments and that you (rightly) welcome migration which means we need even more developments, then why are you saying it will make new developments easier as if it is a bad thing?
    Because what it actually means is people living in one area deciding that all those developments should be in another area - preferably some distance away from them. The urban areas have large swathes of brownfield sites which should be redeveloped. But that is more expensive both for the developers and the local authorities. So now they will have nice large areas of green field they can build on instead. It is simply supercharged NIMBYism.
    Where are these mythical large swathes of brownfield sites that have not been redeveloped in the past quarter of a century where our population has grown by about 20%?

    Any brownfield sites that can be developed should be and largely are, but we need green too. And will do as long as our population rises and until we clear the backlog of missing developments we need.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 37,189

    HYUFD said:

    Farage may hope he wins by a big enough majority in Clacton to avoid a recall by election

    That's what he set out to do. I can't see Labour and the Tories blindsided by that one.
    To be cynical, would Labour want to risk the Conservatives winning a re-run in Clacton?
    In that case surely the Tories can muster 10% of vexed Clacton voters.
    The standard committee comes before the recall petition.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 37,189
    JD Vance: Epstein had connections to high-level US and Israeli intelligence
    Vice-president’s comments could further fuel conspiracies paedophile was asset to foreign intelligence services

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/us/news/2026/07/15/jd-vance-joe-rogan-podcast-epstein/ (£££)

    But the deep state wants people talking about ice cream.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 34,783

    Taz said:

    ydoethur said:

    Gloucestershire to become a single unitary.

    That is bad news for the Forest and Stroud, possibly Gloucester itself, as the county council will be dominated by rich Fukkers from Tewkesbury and the Cotswolds who will be totally unscrupulous about redirecting all the money to where it will benefit their voters rather than where it's actually needed.

    The whole plan for the country is a f##king shambles. Pointless and costly reorganisations which will do nothing to improve local democracy or performance. Indeed I expect services to be far worse and cost far more as a result.
    I’d be fascinated by the thought processes behind these re-organisations.
    Sadly I do suspect a lot of gerrymandering.

    And of course the changes will ensure that rural areas are dominated by the adjacent urban areas so making things like new building developments easier.

    They will do almost nothing to save costs. There will be a few very senior managerial jobs that will go but because of the TUPE rules they cannot use the reorganisation as an excuse for layoffs, nor can they change pay and conditions. And given that they will still need to use existing district and county council offices because they still need to do all the jobs that are currently being done and need the office spce for that, there will be little or no real-estate savings.

    This is all being driven entirely by political considerations and is a centralising rather than decentralising move. A real retrograde step.
    Given we desperately need developments and that you (rightly) welcome migration which means we need even more developments, then why are you saying it will make new developments easier as if it is a bad thing?
    Because what it actually means is people living in one area deciding that all those developments should be in another area - preferably some distance away from them. The urban areas have large swathes of brownfield sites which should be redeveloped. But that is more expensive both for the developers and the local authorities. So now they will have nice large areas of green field they can build on instead. It is simply supercharged NIMBYism.
    Where are these mythical large swathes of brownfield sites that have not been redeveloped in the past quarter of a century where our population has grown by about 20%?

    Any brownfield sites that can be developed should be and largely are, but we need green too. And will do as long as our population rises and until we clear the backlog of missing developments we need.
    1.5 million homes. Half of it with some form of planning permission in place. But developers don't like building on brownfield sites because of the additional costs.

    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2025/sep/24/almost-15m-homes-could-be-built-on-brownfield-sites-in-england-report-finds

  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 57,522

    kle4 said:

    Taz said:

    ydoethur said:

    Gloucestershire to become a single unitary.

    That is bad news for the Forest and Stroud, possibly Gloucester itself, as the county council will be dominated by rich Fukkers from Tewkesbury and the Cotswolds who will be totally unscrupulous about redirecting all the money to where it will benefit their voters rather than where it's actually needed.

    The whole plan for the country is a f##king shambles. Pointless and costly reorganisations which will do nothing to improve local democracy or performance. Indeed I expect services to be far worse and cost far more as a result.
    I’d be fascinated by the thought processes behind these re-organisations.
    1. Saving money
    2. Cutting costs
    3. Rinse and repeat...

    Whether money is actually ever saved is another matter, but the bean counters say 'economies of scale'.
    When have the bean counters ever been right?
    My council, perhaps to justify it's own existence, has said unitarisation enabled saving money and cutting costs which was essential, and unlikely to happen without it. It was done against the wishes of most of the preceding councils and the policy of the Leader's own national party at the time, but they must have changed their tune as they put her in the Lords several years later.

    It's not the cure to all ills, and can be done in a hamfisted way, but this is an area I support the motive of the government at least.

    I'm sure there will be some legal challenges, but on its face that sounds hard to succeed - there are criteria for areas the minister will suppose to have followed, but I'm sure the language was loose around essentially making judgement calls, so it would be easy to defend as reasonable even if everyone hates it.
    I would love to know how they are going to save money - at least any that would be worth all the chaos of the reorganisation. As i mentioned, job losses will be practuically zero because districts and counties did very different jobs before the reorg and those jobs will still need to be done afterwards. Real estate savings will be similarly almost zero because of the continuing need for office space for all those people.

    There will be a few savings in HR but very few I ssupect as the new HR departments will be having to deal with so many more people.

    There will be a few senior managers and heads of department going but that will be it.

    There have been little or no savings made with the rpevious moves to unitary authorities and since the TUPE rules were adopted for local givernment in 2008 there will be even less scope for savings.

    I do believe that in a few years we will look back and realise that, far from saving money, the reorg actually cost money.
    Yep. Just like what happened with Streetings abolition of PHE. I see the same faces as before, just with new titles.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 32,912
    edited July 16
    First local by-election of the night is a Reform hold in Cambridgeshire.
    29.7% of the vote won it.

    Ramsey and Bury - Reform UK Hold

    Reform UK - 506 - 29.7
    Independent - 417 - 24.5
    Conservatives - 412 - 24.2
    Lib Dem - 126 - 7.4
    Green - 123 - 7.2
    Labour - 118 - 6.9
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 37,189
    This Jeff Beck biography is the best rock book of the year
    Blow by Blow lays bare Beck’s soul, and explores his fierce rivalries with almost every other guitarist, from Eric Clapton to Jimi Hendrix

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/books/non-fiction/blow-brad-tolinski-chris-gill-review-jeff-beck-page-clapton/ (£££)

    For those drawing up their holibobs reading lists.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 90,872
    A Chinese AI might make a decent alternative to the Tory leader ?

    Asked Kimi K3 what it would do as UK PM to return North England to being among the richest economies in the world. Best answer yet. From any model.
    https://x.com/thomasforth/status/2077869443644854480
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 40,934
    "White House teleprompter operator accused of making $100k off Trump speech bets"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cjrvdqyr5d5o
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 37,189
    edited July 16
    So the Miliband PB betting coup is back on!! I do not understand why pundits are surprised by the complications here – appointing a Cabinet is about creating a team and balancing various factions. A bit like football but unlike fantasy football where you can just pick your 11 best players. Not to mention that Swinford and other journalists are breathlessly overreacting to what is probably little more than gossip and wishful thinking.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 23,376
    Andy_JS said:

    "White House teleprompter operator accused of making $100k off Trump speech bets"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cjrvdqyr5d5o

    Presumably the problem is how small this particular grift is.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 37,189
    Andy_JS said:

    kle4 said:

    Taz said:

    ydoethur said:

    Gloucestershire to become a single unitary.

    That is bad news for the Forest and Stroud, possibly Gloucester itself, as the county council will be dominated by rich Fukkers from Tewkesbury and the Cotswolds who will be totally unscrupulous about redirecting all the money to where it will benefit their voters rather than where it's actually needed.

    The whole plan for the country is a f##king shambles. Pointless and costly reorganisations which will do nothing to improve local democracy or performance. Indeed I expect services to be far worse and cost far more as a result.
    I’d be fascinated by the thought processes behind these re-organisations.
    Sadly I do suspect a lot of gerrymandering.

    And of course the changes will ensure that rural areas are dominated by the adjacent urban areas so making things like new building developments easier.

    They will do almost nothing to save costs. There will be a few very senior managerial jobs that will go but because of the TUPE rules they cannot use the reorganisation as an excuse for layoffs, nor can they change pay and conditions. And given that they will still need to use existing district and county council offices because they still need to do all the jobs that are currently being done and need the office spce for that, there will be little or no real-estate savings.

    This is all being driven entirely by political considerations and is a centralising rather than decentralising move. A real retrograde step.
    I don't think centralisation is always bad and decentralising always good. I think that is often the case, so it gets treated like it is universal, with the result that sometimes people centralise but have to pretend they are not.

    I think the principle behind the drive towards unitarisation is a good one particularly given the very limited resources for local government. I don't think districts and county councils are necessary or particularly effective. Existing unitaries show that things like real estate savings and managerial reductions will likely come over time.

    Now, some of the choices for the reorganisations are certainly questionable to say the least, so some of the areas as proposed are not ideal, but the way divisions are pulled together by the LGBCE (now or in a later review) makes political gerrymandering a lot harder than people think, as they do not just follow what the local councils or a party tells them - they often the local council suggestion as a starting point, since they have the most resources to suggest an all-council proposal, but local comments can change things a lot.

    I made a public comment on one in my area, and it was cited as reason to make a fairly significant set of changes against even the wishes of the councillor who represented that area.

    It's very peculiar that the final call has been dropped now, but my contacts in this area tell me it's because Steve Reed is an arse.
    Most lefties will be in favour of centralisation because it suits their agenda.
    Most righties will be in favour of centralisation because it suits their agenda. It's not like lefties have run the government for all of the past 40 or 50 years.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 40,934
    "The law is preventing the UK from controlling its borders
    A new High Court judgement has just made it even harder to deport illegal migrants.

    Luke Gittos"

    https://www.spiked-online.com/2026/07/16/the-law-is-preventing-the-uk-from-controlling-its-borders/
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 29,336

    Taz said:

    ydoethur said:

    Gloucestershire to become a single unitary.

    That is bad news for the Forest and Stroud, possibly Gloucester itself, as the county council will be dominated by rich Fukkers from Tewkesbury and the Cotswolds who will be totally unscrupulous about redirecting all the money to where it will benefit their voters rather than where it's actually needed.

    The whole plan for the country is a f##king shambles. Pointless and costly reorganisations which will do nothing to improve local democracy or performance. Indeed I expect services to be far worse and cost far more as a result.
    I’d be fascinated by the thought processes behind these re-organisations.
    Sadly I do suspect a lot of gerrymandering.

    And of course the changes will ensure that rural areas are dominated by the adjacent urban areas so making things like new building developments easier.

    They will do almost nothing to save costs. There will be a few very senior managerial jobs that will go but because of the TUPE rules they cannot use the reorganisation as an excuse for layoffs, nor can they change pay and conditions. And given that they will still need to use existing district and county council offices because they still need to do all the jobs that are currently being done and need the office spce for that, there will be little or no real-estate savings.

    This is all being driven entirely by political considerations and is a centralising rather than decentralising move. A real retrograde step.
    Given we desperately need developments and that you (rightly) welcome migration which means we need even more developments, then why are you saying it will make new developments easier as if it is a bad thing?
    Because what it actually means is people living in one area deciding that all those developments should be in another area - preferably some distance away from them. The urban areas have large swathes of brownfield sites which should be redeveloped. But that is more expensive both for the developers and the local authorities. So now they will have nice large areas of green field they can build on instead. It is simply supercharged NIMBYism.
    Where are these mythical large swathes of brownfield sites that have not been redeveloped in the past quarter of a century where our population has grown by about 20%?

    Any brownfield sites that can be developed should be and largely are, but we need green too. And will do as long as our population rises and until we clear the backlog of missing developments we need.
    1.5 million homes. Half of it with some form of planning permission in place. But developers don't like building on brownfield sites because of the additional costs.

    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2025/sep/24/almost-15m-homes-could-be-built-on-brownfield-sites-in-england-report-finds

    Allegedly, claimed by a group the CPRE with a very vested-interest and based on a series of flawed assumptions.

    Yes if every single brownfield site were capable of being transformed to housing, at high density, and nothing else then those houses could be built.

    However that is never going to happen and can't happen. Some land is unsuitable due to contamination or other reasons. And some will inevitably get used for other purposes, such as industry or retail or anything else. Indeed, build homes and other services are needed so its never all going to go to housing.

    So yes, brownfield can be a part of the mix - and is, but green is needed too.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 29,240
    The Angry Astronaut (don't ask) on the spectacularly bloody obvious: SpaceX's Starship[1] is nowhere near ready for human flight nor the precursor flights necessary for a moon landing. It's just flying up, doing a bit of suborbital, then landing/crashing. And it keeps doing that over and over again. And it hasn't deployed a single satellite into orbit yet.

    And he's been working on this for over ten years now.

    Kennedy announced the moon program in 1961 and it landed in 1969. And followed it up with seven flights (inc one failure).

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xq0OD4nEpIw

    [1] The top bit with the pointy end is called Starship. The bottom bit with the grid fins is called Super Heavy. The two combined is also called Starship
  • FlatlanderFlatlander Posts: 6,128
    edited July 16

    Taz said:

    ydoethur said:

    Gloucestershire to become a single unitary.

    That is bad news for the Forest and Stroud, possibly Gloucester itself, as the county council will be dominated by rich Fukkers from Tewkesbury and the Cotswolds who will be totally unscrupulous about redirecting all the money to where it will benefit their voters rather than where it's actually needed.

    The whole plan for the country is a f##king shambles. Pointless and costly reorganisations which will do nothing to improve local democracy or performance. Indeed I expect services to be far worse and cost far more as a result.
    I’d be fascinated by the thought processes behind these re-organisations.
    Sadly I do suspect a lot of gerrymandering.

    And of course the changes will ensure that rural areas are dominated by the adjacent urban areas so making things like new building developments easier.

    They will do almost nothing to save costs. There will be a few very senior managerial jobs that will go but because of the TUPE rules they cannot use the reorganisation as an excuse for layoffs, nor can they change pay and conditions. And given that they will still need to use existing district and county council offices because they still need to do all the jobs that are currently being done and need the office spce for that, there will be little or no real-estate savings.

    This is all being driven entirely by political considerations and is a centralising rather than decentralising move. A real retrograde step.
    Given we desperately need developments and that you (rightly) welcome migration which means we need even more developments, then why are you saying it will make new developments easier as if it is a bad thing?
    Because what it actually means is people living in one area deciding that all those developments should be in another area - preferably some distance away from them. The urban areas have large swathes of brownfield sites which should be redeveloped. But that is more expensive both for the developers and the local authorities. So now they will have nice large areas of green field they can build on instead. It is simply supercharged NIMBYism.
    Where are these mythical large swathes of brownfield sites that have not been redeveloped in the past quarter of a century where our population has grown by about 20%?

    Any brownfield sites that can be developed should be and largely are, but we need green too. And will do as long as our population rises and until we clear the backlog of missing developments we need.
    1.5 million homes. Half of it with some form of planning permission in place. But developers don't like building on brownfield sites because of the additional costs.

    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2025/sep/24/almost-15m-homes-could-be-built-on-brownfield-sites-in-england-report-finds

    Allegedly, claimed by a group the CPRE with a very vested-interest and based on a series of flawed assumptions.

    Yes if every single brownfield site were capable of being transformed to housing, at high density, and nothing else then those houses could be built.

    However that is never going to happen and can't happen. Some land is unsuitable due to contamination or other reasons. And some will inevitably get used for other purposes, such as industry or retail or anything else. Indeed, build homes and other services are needed so its never all going to go to housing.

    So yes, brownfield can be a part of the mix - and is, but green is needed too.
    Brownfield sites are almost never "brown".

    There are many which have become local wildlife sites / SINCs and also provide green space for a local community. Round here many were pit tips and it would seem a bit off to develop something which has finally become an amenity instead of an eyesore.

    In addition Biodiversity Net Gain credits reflect this in that 'Open Mosaic Sites on Previously Developed Land' are quite expensive to "mitigate".

    On the other hand, cropland is meh and there's often no biodiversity there at all.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 40,934
    viewcode said:

    The Angry Astronaut (don't ask) on the spectacularly bloody obvious: SpaceX's Starship[1] is nowhere near ready for human flight nor the precursor flights necessary for a moon landing. It's just flying up, doing a bit of suborbital, then landing/crashing. And it keeps doing that over and over again. And it hasn't deployed a single satellite into orbit yet.

    And he's been working on this for over ten years now.

    Kennedy announced the moon program in 1961 and it landed in 1969. And followed it up with seven flights (inc one failure).

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xq0OD4nEpIw

    [1] The top bit with the pointy end is called Starship. The bottom bit with the grid fins is called Super Heavy. The two combined is also called Starship

    I miss the days of NASA launching the next space shuttle. Used to get really excited about it.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 29,240
    Andy_JS said:

    viewcode said:

    The Angry Astronaut (don't ask) on the spectacularly bloody obvious: SpaceX's Starship[1] is nowhere near ready for human flight nor the precursor flights necessary for a moon landing. It's just flying up, doing a bit of suborbital, then landing/crashing. And it keeps doing that over and over again. And it hasn't deployed a single satellite into orbit yet.

    And he's been working on this for over ten years now.

    Kennedy announced the moon program in 1961 and it landed in 1969. And followed it up with seven flights (inc one failure).

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xq0OD4nEpIw

    [1] The top bit with the pointy end is called Starship. The bottom bit with the grid fins is called Super Heavy. The two combined is also called Starship

    I miss the days of NASA launching the next space shuttle. Used to get really excited about it.
    • Space Shuttle. 135 launches in thirty years. 4-ish launches per year[2]. 2 failures (1.5% failure rate). All of them went into orbit[1] except for one. 355 people in orbit, several more than once.
    • Starship. 12 launches in three years. 4-ish launches per year. 5 failures (42% failure rate). None of them have gone into orbit yet. Nobody into orbit yet.
    [1] at least Low Earth Orbit (LEO)
    [2] 5 per year before Challenger
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 59,538
    Eabhal said:

    Omnium said:

    Sir Sadiq Khan has been made a peer by Sir Keir Starmer.

    Outrageous! I mean, what has Khan done compared to say Charlotte Owen whom Johnson gave a peerage to?
    He screwed all of London?
    Actually Khan's great sin in my view is that he has entirely failed to quell the fragmentation. In fact he's championed the opposite. If you're a Londoner you hate him, If you're a London claimant you love him.

    Trump buys his way to power, Khan has been there much before him.
    Eh? Khan had large leads over Hall by social grade and income.

    It's funny how people can't get their heads round the fact income and education now correlate positively with Labour vote share. Reform's best cohort is council house tenants etc etc.
    Yes, Labour cling desperately to the idea that they are the party of the working class because it gives them kudos and some sort of moral worth but the reality is that the average member and even voter are degree qualified, middle class, usually professional bureaucrats who left any financial discomfort behind decades ago.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 90,872
    Trump makes unverified claims of China ‘election meddling’ as critics fear ploy to challenge midterm results
    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2026/jul/16/trump-tv-address-thursday

    Trump further laying the ground for fixing November's elections.

    The claim is, of course, absurd.
    He's expecting us to believe that he won fair and square, during a Democratic administration, but somehow the election was fixed to defeat him while he was President.. and then he won again fair and square under another Democratic administration.

    It would be risible, but for the fact that a third of the country believes his dangerous nonsense.

    Meanwhile his masked paramilitaries roam the streets, unconstrained by law.


  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 59,538
    ydoethur said:

    When Joe Root retires at the end of next summer, we are so epically fucked.

    99 not out was the equivalent of about 150 given the brainlessness of the rest of the lineup.

    Harry Brook faced 16 balls, at least 5 of which were either actual scoops or attempted scoops including the one that got him out. He hit 2x4 and 1x6 (a scoop, inevitably). Facing a low score, with a series on the line, with huge amounts of time it was simply unprofessional. And that was the lead from the captain. Had he played aggressively but normally for even 10 overs the match would have been over as a contest. It's deeply unimpressive.
  • Brixian59Brixian59 Posts: 2,569
    DavidL said:

    Eabhal said:

    Omnium said:

    Sir Sadiq Khan has been made a peer by Sir Keir Starmer.

    Outrageous! I mean, what has Khan done compared to say Charlotte Owen whom Johnson gave a peerage to?
    He screwed all of London?
    Actually Khan's great sin in my view is that he has entirely failed to quell the fragmentation. In fact he's championed the opposite. If you're a Londoner you hate him, If you're a London claimant you love him.

    Trump buys his way to power, Khan has been there much before him.
    Eh? Khan had large leads over Hall by social grade and income.

    It's funny how people can't get their heads round the fact income and education now correlate positively with Labour vote share. Reform's best cohort is council house tenants etc etc.
    Yes, Labour cling desperately to the idea that they are the party of the working class because it gives them kudos and some sort of moral worth but the reality is that the average member and even voter are degree qualified, middle class, usually professional bureaucrats who left any financial discomfort behind decades ago.
    In reality therefore

    Labour has taken over the core Conservative vote, the Tories cling to over 70's into senility and a few rabid right wing edges and are well on the way to extinction.

    The Tories once 3rd and NOT the Official Opposition are dead. If not electorally then financially, bankrupt on all counts.

  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 80,170
    Nigelb said:

    Trump makes unverified claims of China ‘election meddling’ as critics fear ploy to challenge midterm results
    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2026/jul/16/trump-tv-address-thursday

    Trump further laying the ground for fixing November's elections.

    The claim is, of course, absurd.
    He's expecting us to believe that he won fair and square, during a Democratic administration, but somehow the election was fixed to defeat him while he was President.. and then he won again fair and square under another Democratic administration.

    It would be risible, but for the fact that a third of the country believes his dangerous nonsense.

    Meanwhile his masked paramilitaries roam the streets, unconstrained by law.


    Mike Johnson is quite right. The voters have only one last chance to save American democracy.

    Not in the way he meant, of course.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 62,545
    Impressive-looking abort after ignition for Starship last night.

    https://x.com/csi_starbase/status/2077888152661012987

    It appears that a couple of the engines didn’t light properly when commanded, and the abort command came just before they were committed to flight.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 80,170
    DavidL said:

    ydoethur said:

    When Joe Root retires at the end of next summer, we are so epically fucked.

    99 not out was the equivalent of about 150 given the brainlessness of the rest of the lineup.

    Harry Brook faced 16 balls, at least 5 of which were either actual scoops or attempted scoops including the one that got him out. He hit 2x4 and 1x6 (a scoop, inevitably). Facing a low score, with a series on the line, with huge amounts of time it was simply unprofessional. And that was the lead from the captain. Had he played aggressively but normally for even 10 overs the match would have been over as a contest. It's deeply unimpressive.
    Harry Brook should not only not be Test captain but should be stripped of the ODI captaincy too.

    The snag is, who do you choose instead given Pope has fallen from favour and Root, magnificent cricketer though he is, is not the best of captains and does not really want the post?
  • Brixian59Brixian59 Posts: 2,569
    kle4 said:

    Taz said:

    ydoethur said:

    Gloucestershire to become a single unitary.

    That is bad news for the Forest and Stroud, possibly Gloucester itself, as the county council will be dominated by rich Fukkers from Tewkesbury and the Cotswolds who will be totally unscrupulous about redirecting all the money to where it will benefit their voters rather than where it's actually needed.

    The whole plan for the country is a f##king shambles. Pointless and costly reorganisations which will do nothing to improve local democracy or performance. Indeed I expect services to be far worse and cost far more as a result.
    I’d be fascinated by the thought processes behind these re-organisations.
    Sadly I do suspect a lot of gerrymandering.

    And of course the changes will ensure that rural areas are dominated by the adjacent urban areas so making things like new building developments easier.

    They will do almost nothing to save costs. There will be a few very senior managerial jobs that will go but because of the TUPE rules they cannot use the reorganisation as an excuse for layoffs, nor can they change pay and conditions. And given that they will still need to use existing district and county council offices because they still need to do all the jobs that are currently being done and need the office spce for that, there will be little or no real-estate savings.

    This is all being driven entirely by political considerations and is a centralising rather than decentralising move. A real retrograde step.
    Given we desperately need developments and that you (rightly) welcome migration which means we need even more developments, then why are you saying it will make new developments easier as if it is a bad thing?
    And even if it is, facilitating that would be an entirely legitimate political choice for government to make. Something being 'political' does not automatically mean it is bad, unless people mean it narrowly to mean 'party political' to advantage one side in electoral terms.

    Which is a potential accusation, but administrative boundaries being driven by political considerations is pretty normal - the criteria for setting them are done by politicians for a start, and you have criteria like community but also electoral equality (for wards) that end up conflicting, and no matter how you do it the reality of where people live don't fit perfectly in that.

    Are these proposals borked? Possibly, in some areas (Devon looks a mess to me). But having a political drive to reduce the number of councils, and possibly to make development easier (I don't think it will be that easier, but whatever)? Legitimate.

    And people don't even care about their local council until it is changed. I've known people who still think they live in a district council which was abolished nearly 20 years ago.
    Devon actually looks entirely sensible.

    The Cities of Exeter and Plymouth expand. The increasingly vibrant area of Torbay expands to pick up decent sized conurbations like Newton Abbot and Totnes and the remainder a basically Rural rump sits in one Authority.

    It makes completely perfect sense to someone who lives in Devon and has seen Torbay in particular really start to thrive with a lot of inward investment over the past 5 years, after three or four decades of neglect.

  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 62,545
    One Russian Su-24M bomber aircraft not reporting for duty this morning.

    Silly orcs left it parked outside at an airbase in Crimea, a sitting duck for Ukranian drones.

    https://x.com/gerashchenko_en/status/2077744811721826506
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 59,538
    Sandpit said:

    One Russian Su-24M bomber aircraft not reporting for duty this morning.

    Silly orcs left it parked outside at an airbase in Crimea, a sitting duck for Ukranian drones.

    https://x.com/gerashchenko_en/status/2077744811721826506

    It’s incredible that they are still doing this. Crimea is now struggling without power with a consequential shortage of water. It’s becoming indefensible but so long as the Russians are willing to offer high value targets like this it makes sense for Ukraine to simply add to the pain.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 59,538
    ydoethur said:

    DavidL said:

    ydoethur said:

    When Joe Root retires at the end of next summer, we are so epically fucked.

    99 not out was the equivalent of about 150 given the brainlessness of the rest of the lineup.

    Harry Brook faced 16 balls, at least 5 of which were either actual scoops or attempted scoops including the one that got him out. He hit 2x4 and 1x6 (a scoop, inevitably). Facing a low score, with a series on the line, with huge amounts of time it was simply unprofessional. And that was the lead from the captain. Had he played aggressively but normally for even 10 overs the match would have been over as a contest. It's deeply unimpressive.
    Harry Brook should not only not be Test captain but should be stripped of the ODI captaincy too.

    The snag is, who do you choose instead given Pope has fallen from favour and Root, magnificent cricketer though he is, is not the best of captains and does not really want the post?
    I think the most obvious tactical brain is Sam Curran. Whether he is good enough for tests needs to checked.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 80,170
    DavidL said:

    ydoethur said:

    DavidL said:

    ydoethur said:

    When Joe Root retires at the end of next summer, we are so epically fucked.

    99 not out was the equivalent of about 150 given the brainlessness of the rest of the lineup.

    Harry Brook faced 16 balls, at least 5 of which were either actual scoops or attempted scoops including the one that got him out. He hit 2x4 and 1x6 (a scoop, inevitably). Facing a low score, with a series on the line, with huge amounts of time it was simply unprofessional. And that was the lead from the captain. Had he played aggressively but normally for even 10 overs the match would have been over as a contest. It's deeply unimpressive.
    Harry Brook should not only not be Test captain but should be stripped of the ODI captaincy too.

    The snag is, who do you choose instead given Pope has fallen from favour and Root, magnificent cricketer though he is, is not the best of captains and does not really want the post?
    I think the most obvious tactical brain is Sam Curran. Whether he is good enough for tests needs to checked.
    I don't think he's quite a Test number 7. Rehan Ahmed might be in which case Curran could perhaps bat 8. But his bowling is definitely the support variety.
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