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More voters think Reform are on the side of the establishment than the people – politicalbetting.com

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  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 60,477

    God, on topic, people are idiots

    Establishment wit!
  • FeersumEnjineeyaFeersumEnjineeya Posts: 5,383

    Boaty McBoatface is leaving for Greenland to check out whether the Gulf Stream/ Escalator is about to stop.

    Kemi Badenoch; " net zero is rubbish".

    If the gulf stream stops we will need to burn a lot of gas...
    Which we will no longer have, having already burned it all.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 37,667
    theProle said:

    Russia failed to sell government bonds today. The following is from Kommersant (translated by Google).

    The Ministry of Finance canceled an OFZ auction for the third time in a month.
    The Russian Ministry of Finance has declared the auction for the placement of federal loan bonds with variable coupon income, Series 29028, invalid. The maturity date is October 2039.

    The ministry planned to offer the remainder of the issue to the market, worth up to 124 billion rubles at par. The Ministry of Finance stated that the cancellation was due to a "lack of bids at acceptable price levels." This was the first time the floater was offered to investors since December 2025.

    This is the third auction cancellation in the past month. The Ministry of Finance had previously canceled the placements twice—on June 24 and July 8—citing the need to "stabilize the market situation." In the third quarter, the ministry plans to raise 1.5 trillion rubles through the primary government debt market.


    The only successful bond sale Russia has had in the last four weeks was for 10 billion rubles, less than £100 million.

    250 billion rubles of bonds mature next week.

    Where is Russian debt mainly held - I.e. if they default in some way, is it ordinary Russians, Russian Oligarchs, the Chinese, or someone else who takes most of the hit?
    Ordinary Russians of course. 'Twas ever thus!
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 60,477

    Lovely final exchange between Starmer and Kemi and great credit to both of them

    I thought it drivel and turned it off. It’s drivel because it’s wholly false in how they think and feel about each other. We were being fed a charade - nothing real.

    Meanwhile, Burnham’s destruction of Labour as election winning force begins…

    https://news.sky.com/story/money-live-consumer-personal-finance-tips-sky-news-latest-13040934?postid=12061006#liveblog-body
    LMA 👍
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 40,899
    Argentina fans burn the UK flag.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bXMHGbpYzL8
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 92,268
    Andy_JS said:

    Argentina fans burn the UK flag.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bXMHGbpYzL8

    Stay Classy.....
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 24,983

    Boaty McBoatface is leaving for Greenland to check out whether the Gulf Stream/ Escalator is about to stop.

    Kemi Badenoch; " net zero is rubbish".

    When Burnham opens North Sea oil and gas and takes an axe to climate change subsidy in electric bills then Kemi will have proved her point

    It doesn' t have to be all or nothing, just longer transistion for a country with less than 1% of the worlds emissions
    Huh? Because of fossil fuel emissions the Escalator likely stops. So let's burn more fossil fuels.
    Not drilling for North Sea oil and gas has done nothing to reduce our fossil fuel emissions. We have just bought the oil and gas from elsewhere at a higher cost. That is what has been so dumb about Miliband's actions.
    There are about 900,000 horses in Britain.

    The internet suggests there were about 3.3 million horses in Britain in 1900.

    It's often said that cars replaced horses for transportation (and similarly tractors in agriculture) without horses having to be banned, and that this is a model for how zero carbon energy should replace fossil fuels. And I have a deal of sympathy for that view. And yet, the population of horses has only declined by about three-quarters.

    There may come a time where we want to restrict fossil fuel extraction in order to drive out residual use.
  • FlatlanderFlatlander Posts: 6,119

    Boaty McBoatface is leaving for Greenland to check out whether the Gulf Stream/ Escalator is about to stop.

    Kemi Badenoch; " net zero is rubbish".

    If the gulf stream stops we will need to burn a lot of gas...
    Which we will no longer have, having already burned it all.
    We haven't yet. But if we close down the North Sea now then it won't matter, because we won't be starting it up again.

    I imagine we would eventually find an alternative but if we suddenly flipped to continental winters we are in no position to convert everyone to leccy heating.

    And there must be a risk that would also mean being stuck under windless high pressures as well as being freezing.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 51,504

    kinabalu said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:


    Andrew Lilico
    @andrew_lilico
    ·
    4m
    It's a very poor sign if Andy Burnham is letting bond markets choose his Chancellor for him.

    https://x.com/andrew_lilico/status/2077341411582574631

    UK government debt will soon exceed £3 trillion, so it should be blindingly obvious to anyone who isn't a moron that keeping the bond market happy is the first priority for any Chancellor.

    The second priority is then working out how to reduce that mountain of debt, so that the country is less reliant on the bond market.
    Andrew Lilico
    @andrew_lilico
    ·
    15m
    Letting bond markets choose your Chancellor is nothing to do with "respecting reality". You should pick the Chancellor you believe will make the economy grow fastest, act most justly etc. If bond markets "disagree" then borrow less or pay more to borrow. Bond markets aren't gods.
    Yeah, because not "respecting reality" always works out so well and makes us all better off. Ask Kwasi.
    If you want to make the bond markets much less important there is one way to do so - consistently run a budget surplus.
    The bond markets are like any bank for an individual. If you want to ignore them don't borrow money. If you need to borrow money you need to deal with them and be polite in those dealings. Simples.
    It's a two way street though. The sovereign debt market also needs borrowing governments. It'd be stuffed without them. Die a slow lingering death.
    Yes. In the early 2000s there were articles complaining that Brown was paying back too much debt, and there wasn't enough government bonds to go around.

    Much more innocent times.
    I remember that. Fetishising prudence was a charge being bandied about in the early years. Even after the taps were opened we were at (shock horror) 40% of GDP. Then comes 3 absolute bastards to mess it all up, GFC, Covid, Putin. And now, god help us, Donald Trump.

    Never bright shiny morning again. Easy to start succumbing to that sentiment but I try not to. Cmon Andy. Bring the fizz and fun back into politics!
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 40,542
    edited 1:16PM

    Police have arrested a man for threatening to kill Nigel Farage, The Telegraph can disclose.

    The suspect – who has described himself as a terrorist on social media – warned Mr Farage: “I am going to shoot you in the head if you win.” It is the first time an instruction to police by the parliamentary authorities to investigate a threat to kill Mr Farage has resulted in an arrest.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2026/07/15/police-arrest-man-over-threat-to-shoot-nigel-farage/

    I would imagine this unfortunately goes with the territory of today's political discourse. I suspect Burnham, Badenoch, Starmer, Sunak and Farage have all had credible threats made against their lives. Some by lone wolves, some by the Russian State (the Starmer arson R**t Boy hoax). The only one of them who tries to make political capital out of it is Farage. Remember his claim that the brakes on his Volvo had been tampered with in France. Yet the mechanic who checked the brakes out after the event considered poor maintenance the most likely culprit.

    Jo Cox was shot and stabbed by an extreme right wing English nationalist at the height of the Leave campaign, and a week later Farage made the bizarre and tasteless claim that the Brexit revolution had been won "without a shot fired".
  • FeersumEnjineeyaFeersumEnjineeya Posts: 5,383

    Boaty McBoatface is leaving for Greenland to check out whether the Gulf Stream/ Escalator is about to stop.

    Kemi Badenoch; " net zero is rubbish".

    When Burnham opens North Sea oil and gas and takes an axe to climate change subsidy in electric bills then Kemi will have proved her point

    It doesn' t have to be all or nothing, just longer transistion for a country with less than 1% of the worlds emissions
    A couple of points.

    1. Time is not on our side. The longer the world takes to transition, the worse things get. Procrastination is not a good idea.

    2. You can split the whole world into arbitrarily small chunks, each of which makes a very small contribution to emissions, so it makes no sense to say that our contribution isn't important. There's no reason why small countries shouldn't put in the same effort as large countries with regard to emission reduction. Emissions per capita is a more sensible measure than total emissions when looking for room for improvement.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 24,983
    edited 1:20PM
    This is one to watch.

    Russia likely used relay stations in Belarus to guide a Shahed drone that struck a gas station in Zhytomyr region, Defense Ministry adviser Serhii Flash said. The drone flew along roads and railways for 260 km from Russia, suggesting manual camera control beyond direct radio range.

    https://t.me/noel_reports/49381

    Not long ago Zelensky told Belarus that if these relay stations were not shut down then Ukraine would shut them down. And it appears that they were shutdown. For a while.

    So what happens now?
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 67,100
    Andy_JS said:

    Leaving 2 years after winning a 170 seat majority is still very surprising.

    I wish SKS fans would explain this.
  • sladeslade Posts: 2,384
    Back to a normal local by-election day tomorrow. We have Breckland (Ind elected as Lab, Cambridgeshire (Ref), Cherwell ( LD), Norfolk (Ref), Peterborough (Ind elected as Lab), Rushmoor ( Lab), South Staffordshire ( Con), and Stafford (Lab).
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 40,542

    Andy_JS said:

    Leaving 2 years after winning a 170 seat majority is still very surprising.

    I wish SKS fans would explain this.
    If you can name one we can ask them.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 34,017
    edited 1:27PM

    MattW said:

    Good morning everyone. What a bundle of news; I need to do a Stodge, about several people.

    I've been very interested listening to memories and commentary about Ann Widdecombe. The Rest is Politics were especially good in capturing her nature as a bit of a political and personal smorgasboard, with unexpected areas of attention and interest. * Alistair Campbell noted that when she was asked for his greatest contribution, she was the only one who mentioned his mental health: 'he shows that someone with mental health problems can hold down a role at the highest level' (paraphrase).

    I think of Anne Widdecombe as a Curate's Egg, someone capable of intense personal kindness and interest, but also old style high-handed indifferent, symbolic cruelty; there is something bizarre about a (probably) avowed lifelong virgin insisting that women in labour be kept in handcuffs to prevent them running away from hospital. If I make a "style" comparison, it would perhaps be with Roger Scruton.

    And Harvey Proctor. The piece linked earlier was a dignified reply to Zia Yusuf's trolling. I can't put a handle on Proctor either. For 2 decades, he was quite like one of Farage's proteges (Monday club secretary 1989-1971) and is now a more sympathetic figure.

    Plus Lord Hogan-Howe, former Met Commissioner. He was responsible for Operation Midland in the 2010s looking into historic child abuse allegations, and had to personally apologise to Proctor for the Met doing him over, and the Met paid £900k as a compensation package.

    I know him as one of the more ignorant of the cyclist-obsessed gang who fester in a corner of the House of Lords, and every time he wastes the Lords' time by making a speech on the subject I can tick off the tropes on my bingo-card.

    Hogan-Howe running the review into how our police should be structured.

    * The Rest is Politics on Widdecombe. 35 minutes.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WWVCsgwV4s0

    I knew Ann reasonably well as a colleague with a common interest (animal welfare). She was firmly blunt and it never even occurred to me to try to persuade her on any issue other than what we were focused on. I wouldn't call her rude - simply uncompromising, even where anyone who I'd call reasonable would think the issue was complicated. An interesting character and definitely not someone in politics for the money or fame. Quite apart from the obvious recoil at anyone being murdered, I think she added an interesting and not unattractive aspect to public life, at a time when most of us, by nature or by design, were smooth get-on-with-anyone types.
    I think the different sides to her ... being clear that she had an interesting variety of views ... are perhaps some indication of "things from the store cupboard" which the Conservatives need to consider whether they need to recover, or not, in 2026.

    That was why my chosen comparison was Roger Scruton - he was also a Curate's Egg. I think a comparison of AW with Danny Kruger also has some value, whilst one with JD Vance would not - JD Vance being largely a weathervane not a signpost.

    Perhaps JRM is also an interesting Ann Widdecombe comparison. I thought he handled himself reasonably well when in a Ministerial position when his views of conscience could clash with requirements of his position. But AW was a front rank politician, whereas JRM arguably is not of similar stature.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 18,686

    Boaty McBoatface is leaving for Greenland to check out whether the Gulf Stream/ Escalator is about to stop.

    Kemi Badenoch; " net zero is rubbish".

    When Burnham opens North Sea oil and gas and takes an axe to climate change subsidy in electric bills then Kemi will have proved her point

    It doesn' t have to be all or nothing, just longer transistion for a country with less than 1% of the worlds emissions
    Huh? Because of fossil fuel emissions the Escalator likely stops. So let's burn more fossil fuels.
    Not drilling for North Sea oil and gas has done nothing to reduce our fossil fuel emissions. We have just bought the oil and gas from elsewhere at a higher cost. That is what has been so dumb about Miliband's actions.
    There are about 900,000 horses in Britain.

    The internet suggests there were about 3.3 million horses in Britain in 1900.

    It's often said that cars replaced horses for transportation (and similarly tractors in agriculture) without horses having to be banned, and that this is a model for how zero carbon energy should replace fossil fuels. And I have a deal of sympathy for that view. And yet, the population of horses has only declined by about three-quarters.

    There may come a time where we want to restrict fossil fuel extraction in order to drive out residual use.
    That's actually extraordinary, that there are so many horses when the economic demand for their services has declined so much. Not that I'm complaining, they are beautiful animals.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 72,692

    Boaty McBoatface is leaving for Greenland to check out whether the Gulf Stream/ Escalator is about to stop.

    Kemi Badenoch; " net zero is rubbish".

    When Burnham opens North Sea oil and gas and takes an axe to climate change subsidy in electric bills then Kemi will have proved her point

    It doesn' t have to be all or nothing, just longer transistion for a country with less than 1% of the worlds emissions
    A couple of points.

    1. Time is not on our side. The longer the world takes to transition, the worse things get. Procrastination is not a good idea.

    2. You can split the whole world into arbitrarily small chunks, each of which makes a very small contribution to emissions, so it makes no sense to say that our contribution isn't important. There's no reason why small countries shouldn't put in the same effort as large countries with regard to emission reduction. Emissions per capita is a more sensible measure than total emissions when looking for room for improvement.
    You cannot convince me that with 1% of the world's omission a longer transition is somehow going to have a material effect on climate change which by the way I accept is happening

    It can and should be both, with attention paid to just how much we are loading onto electricity bills and business costs directly affecting everyone in their pocket
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 67,100

    Yvette is now favourite to be CoE on BF

    As my sources expected.
    Yvette!

    The best a Burnham can get.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 34,763

    Boaty McBoatface is leaving for Greenland to check out whether the Gulf Stream/ Escalator is about to stop.

    Kemi Badenoch; " net zero is rubbish".

    When Burnham opens North Sea oil and gas and takes an axe to climate change subsidy in electric bills then Kemi will have proved her point

    It doesn' t have to be all or nothing, just longer transistion for a country with less than 1% of the worlds emissions
    Huh? Because of fossil fuel emissions the Escalator likely stops. So let's burn more fossil fuels.
    Not drilling for North Sea oil and gas has done nothing to reduce our fossil fuel emissions. We have just bought the oil and gas from elsewhere at a higher cost. That is what has been so dumb about Miliband's actions.
    There are about 900,000 horses in Britain.

    The internet suggests there were about 3.3 million horses in Britain in 1900.

    It's often said that cars replaced horses for transportation (and similarly tractors in agriculture) without horses having to be banned, and that this is a model for how zero carbon energy should replace fossil fuels. And I have a deal of sympathy for that view. And yet, the population of horses has only declined by about three-quarters.

    There may come a time where we want to restrict fossil fuel extraction in order to drive out residual use.
    A comment which rather misses the point that the only other productive use for horses when we stopped using them for power was manure and glue. The same cannot be said for hydrocarbons given the whole modern world (even excluding energy) is based on their usage. We will never drive out residual use and the world wuold be a much poorer place if we tried.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 40,542

    Yvette is now favourite to be CoE on BF

    As my sources expected.
    Yvette!

    The best a Burnham can get.
    Balls to that!
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 67,100
    Pulpstar said:

    As a beneficiary of the below it is ridiculous 47 years of Neoliberalism unopposed has delivered it.

    Extraordinary fact: £1 in every £2 paid in income tax in Britain goes directly to the retired.

    Our current pensions set-up and Triple Lock is not only unsustainable, but crippling the economy for those building it.

    Whats the plan then, those currently in receipt live (relatively) high on the hog whilst the retirement drawbridge is pulled up for younger generations ?

    Keeping the triple lock in place and at the same time accelerating the future pension age is unbelievably unfair.
    They are the ones who vote.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 23,351

    Boaty McBoatface is leaving for Greenland to check out whether the Gulf Stream/ Escalator is about to stop.

    Kemi Badenoch; " net zero is rubbish".

    When Burnham opens North Sea oil and gas and takes an axe to climate change subsidy in electric bills then Kemi will have proved her point

    It doesn' t have to be all or nothing, just longer transistion for a country with less than 1% of the worlds emissions
    A couple of points.

    1. Time is not on our side. The longer the world takes to transition, the worse things get. Procrastination is not a good idea.

    2. You can split the whole world into arbitrarily small chunks, each of which makes a very small contribution to emissions, so it makes no sense to say that our contribution isn't important. There's no reason why small countries shouldn't put in the same effort as large countries with regard to emission reduction. Emissions per capita is a more sensible measure than total emissions when looking for room for improvement.
    You cannot convince me that with 1% of the world's omission a longer transition is somehow going to have a material effect on climate change which by the way I accept is happening

    It can and should be both, with attention paid to just how much we are loading onto electricity bills and business costs directly affecting everyone in their pocket
    What happens when everyone says that?
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 24,983

    Boaty McBoatface is leaving for Greenland to check out whether the Gulf Stream/ Escalator is about to stop.

    Kemi Badenoch; " net zero is rubbish".

    When Burnham opens North Sea oil and gas and takes an axe to climate change subsidy in electric bills then Kemi will have proved her point

    It doesn' t have to be all or nothing, just longer transistion for a country with less than 1% of the worlds emissions
    A couple of points.

    1. Time is not on our side. The longer the world takes to transition, the worse things get. Procrastination is not a good idea.

    2. You can split the whole world into arbitrarily small chunks, each of which makes a very small contribution to emissions, so it makes no sense to say that our contribution isn't important. There's no reason why small countries shouldn't put in the same effort as large countries with regard to emission reduction. Emissions per capita is a more sensible measure than total emissions when looking for room for improvement.
    You cannot convince me that with 1% of the world's omission a longer transition is somehow going to have a material effect on climate change which by the way I accept is happening

    It can and should be both, with attention paid to just how much we are loading onto electricity bills and business costs directly affecting everyone in their pocket
    But your argument leads to no-one doing anything about climate change, and that would lead to even higher costs for people in the future.

    In terms of loading costs onto future generations it's worse than borrowing hundreds of billions of pounds every year.
  • Jim_MillerJim_Miller Posts: 3,957
    Related to the topic? Possibly.

    Here's an interesting poll finding:
    Democrats’ support among voters who dislike both major parties is surging ahead of this year's midterm elections, according to a new poll released on Tuesday, less than four months from Election Day.
    . . .
    The new poll, from Verasight and Strength in Numbers, found that Democrats have a 26-point lead among voters who dislike both political parties. Those so-called “double haters” are a critical voting bloc that could determine control of Congress, and their increasing support for Democrats could be a red flag for Republican candidates running in swing districts.
    (Links omitted.)

    For the record: I am not familiar with Verasight and Strength in Numbers -- but the result does not seem implausible to me.
  • FlatlanderFlatlander Posts: 6,119

    Boaty McBoatface is leaving for Greenland to check out whether the Gulf Stream/ Escalator is about to stop.

    Kemi Badenoch; " net zero is rubbish".

    When Burnham opens North Sea oil and gas and takes an axe to climate change subsidy in electric bills then Kemi will have proved her point

    It doesn' t have to be all or nothing, just longer transistion for a country with less than 1% of the worlds emissions
    A couple of points.

    1. Time is not on our side. The longer the world takes to transition, the worse things get. Procrastination is not a good idea.

    2. You can split the whole world into arbitrarily small chunks, each of which makes a very small contribution to emissions, so it makes no sense to say that our contribution isn't important. There's no reason why small countries shouldn't put in the same effort as large countries with regard to emission reduction. Emissions per capita is a more sensible measure than total emissions when looking for room for improvement.
    In a European context we aren't doing terribly per capita. About par with France and close to half that of Germany.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 24,983
    edited 1:31PM

    Boaty McBoatface is leaving for Greenland to check out whether the Gulf Stream/ Escalator is about to stop.

    Kemi Badenoch; " net zero is rubbish".

    When Burnham opens North Sea oil and gas and takes an axe to climate change subsidy in electric bills then Kemi will have proved her point

    It doesn' t have to be all or nothing, just longer transistion for a country with less than 1% of the worlds emissions
    Huh? Because of fossil fuel emissions the Escalator likely stops. So let's burn more fossil fuels.
    Not drilling for North Sea oil and gas has done nothing to reduce our fossil fuel emissions. We have just bought the oil and gas from elsewhere at a higher cost. That is what has been so dumb about Miliband's actions.
    There are about 900,000 horses in Britain.

    The internet suggests there were about 3.3 million horses in Britain in 1900.

    It's often said that cars replaced horses for transportation (and similarly tractors in agriculture) without horses having to be banned, and that this is a model for how zero carbon energy should replace fossil fuels. And I have a deal of sympathy for that view. And yet, the population of horses has only declined by about three-quarters.

    There may come a time where we want to restrict fossil fuel extraction in order to drive out residual use.
    A comment which rather misses the point that the only other productive use for horses when we stopped using them for power was manure and glue. The same cannot be said for hydrocarbons given the whole modern world (even excluding energy) is based on their usage. We will never drive out residual use and the world wuold be a much poorer place if we tried.
    We should certainly, at some point, seek to drive out use of fossil fuels for combustion. I am happy to make that clarification.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 32,906

    Boaty McBoatface is leaving for Greenland to check out whether the Gulf Stream/ Escalator is about to stop.

    Kemi Badenoch; " net zero is rubbish".

    When Burnham opens North Sea oil and gas and takes an axe to climate change subsidy in electric bills then Kemi will have proved her point

    It doesn' t have to be all or nothing, just longer transistion for a country with less than 1% of the worlds emissions
    Huh? Because of fossil fuel emissions the Escalator likely stops. So let's burn more fossil fuels.
    Not drilling for North Sea oil and gas has done nothing to reduce our fossil fuel emissions. We have just bought the oil and gas from elsewhere at a higher cost. That is what has been so dumb about Miliband's actions.
    There are about 900,000 horses in Britain.

    The internet suggests there were about 3.3 million horses in Britain in 1900.

    It's often said that cars replaced horses for transportation (and similarly tractors in agriculture) without horses having to be banned, and that this is a model for how zero carbon energy should replace fossil fuels. And I have a deal of sympathy for that view. And yet, the population of horses has only declined by about three-quarters.

    There may come a time where we want to restrict fossil fuel extraction in order to drive out residual use.
    A comment which rather misses the point that the only other productive use for horses when we stopped using them for power was manure and glue. The same cannot be said for hydrocarbons given the whole modern world (even excluding energy) is based on their usage. We will never drive out residual use and the world wuold be a much poorer place if we tried.
    The main productive use for horses is sport and hobbies.
    Which is where we'll most likely end up with the ICE I'd imagine.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 137,560
    edited 1:33PM

    God, on topic, people are idiots

    I believe Reform are on the side of the establishment and not ordinary people. The evidence is compelling.
    At a push they are on the side of the rich self made and some hedge funds and the rightwing press and armed forces. They are certainly not on the side of the civil service, the CBI, Oxbridge, the judiciary, the police and the BBC and C of E
  • MattWMattW Posts: 34,017
    edited 1:34PM

    Boaty McBoatface is leaving for Greenland to check out whether the Gulf Stream/ Escalator is about to stop.

    Kemi Badenoch; " net zero is rubbish".

    When Burnham opens North Sea oil and gas and takes an axe to climate change subsidy in electric bills then Kemi will have proved her point

    It doesn' t have to be all or nothing, just longer transistion for a country with less than 1% of the worlds emissions
    Huh? Because of fossil fuel emissions the Escalator likely stops. So let's burn more fossil fuels.
    Not drilling for North Sea oil and gas has done nothing to reduce our fossil fuel emissions. We have just bought the oil and gas from elsewhere at a higher cost. That is what has been so dumb about Miliband's actions.
    There are about 900,000 horses in Britain.

    The internet suggests there were about 3.3 million horses in Britain in 1900.

    It's often said that cars replaced horses for transportation (and similarly tractors in agriculture) without horses having to be banned, and that this is a model for how zero carbon energy should replace fossil fuels. And I have a deal of sympathy for that view. And yet, the population of horses has only declined by about three-quarters.

    There may come a time where we want to restrict fossil fuel extraction in order to drive out residual use.
    If I am dictator for a day, my modest (but also slightly ambitious) proposal for horses is that all canal towpaths be declared bridleways by stature law, since that is what they were before. It would need some trimming, since not all routes continue through, and tow paths do not get winding holes.

    And I wonder about imposing equine pooper-scoopers. *

    * In practice horse-nappies are available.
    ** Don't get a horse nappy mixed up with a nappy horse.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 32,906
    HYUFD said:

    God, on topic, people are idiots

    I believe Reform are on the side of the establishment and not ordinary people. The evidence is compelling.
    At a push they are on the side of the rich self made and some hedge funds and the rightwing press. They are certainly not on the side of the civil service, the CBI, the judiciary and the BBC and C of E
    Not the zero hours worker. Or even your average worker.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 34,763

    Boaty McBoatface is leaving for Greenland to check out whether the Gulf Stream/ Escalator is about to stop.

    Kemi Badenoch; " net zero is rubbish".

    When Burnham opens North Sea oil and gas and takes an axe to climate change subsidy in electric bills then Kemi will have proved her point

    It doesn' t have to be all or nothing, just longer transistion for a country with less than 1% of the worlds emissions
    Huh? Because of fossil fuel emissions the Escalator likely stops. So let's burn more fossil fuels.
    Not drilling for North Sea oil and gas has done nothing to reduce our fossil fuel emissions. We have just bought the oil and gas from elsewhere at a higher cost. That is what has been so dumb about Miliband's actions.
    Not drilling for North Sea oil and gas much surely have reduced global emissions by some amount because it will have reduced the amount of oil and gas on the global market and therefore pushed up their prices, thus making those fuels a little less economic to use.
    Nope. Because there was, and is, still a large surplus of oil and gas available simply by opening taps. The only things that change oil and gas price are demand and the supply from the big producing countries. What we do in the UK as far as drilling is concerned has zero impact on world oil and gas prices - just as it has zero impact on our emissions.

    Meanwhile we import LNG from the USA - losing 5% of it in transit - and paying nearly £1 billion a year in fees, and we import gas via a pipeline from Norway - taken from the same basin that we are forbidden from drilling - and pay over £2 billion in fees to Norway for it (over and above the actual market price of the gas)
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 72,692

    Boaty McBoatface is leaving for Greenland to check out whether the Gulf Stream/ Escalator is about to stop.

    Kemi Badenoch; " net zero is rubbish".

    When Burnham opens North Sea oil and gas and takes an axe to climate change subsidy in electric bills then Kemi will have proved her point

    It doesn' t have to be all or nothing, just longer transistion for a country with less than 1% of the worlds emissions
    A couple of points.

    1. Time is not on our side. The longer the world takes to transition, the worse things get. Procrastination is not a good idea.

    2. You can split the whole world into arbitrarily small chunks, each of which makes a very small contribution to emissions, so it makes no sense to say that our contribution isn't important. There's no reason why small countries shouldn't put in the same effort as large countries with regard to emission reduction. Emissions per capita is a more sensible measure than total emissions when looking for room for improvement.
    You cannot convince me that with 1% of the world's omission a longer transition is somehow going to have a material effect on climate change which by the way I accept is happening

    It can and should be both, with attention paid to just how much we are loading onto electricity bills and business costs directly affecting everyone in their pocket
    What happens when everyone says that?
    Why should the UK impoverish it's people and businesses when others including the US Russia and China ignore it

    I am suggesting a longer lead in, but not stopping the process

    I expect it will become the way forward both here and across Europe when the target dates become unachievable

  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 34,763

    Boaty McBoatface is leaving for Greenland to check out whether the Gulf Stream/ Escalator is about to stop.

    Kemi Badenoch; " net zero is rubbish".

    When Burnham opens North Sea oil and gas and takes an axe to climate change subsidy in electric bills then Kemi will have proved her point

    It doesn' t have to be all or nothing, just longer transistion for a country with less than 1% of the worlds emissions
    Huh? Because of fossil fuel emissions the Escalator likely stops. So let's burn more fossil fuels.
    Not drilling for North Sea oil and gas has done nothing to reduce our fossil fuel emissions. We have just bought the oil and gas from elsewhere at a higher cost. That is what has been so dumb about Miliband's actions.
    There are about 900,000 horses in Britain.

    The internet suggests there were about 3.3 million horses in Britain in 1900.

    It's often said that cars replaced horses for transportation (and similarly tractors in agriculture) without horses having to be banned, and that this is a model for how zero carbon energy should replace fossil fuels. And I have a deal of sympathy for that view. And yet, the population of horses has only declined by about three-quarters.

    There may come a time where we want to restrict fossil fuel extraction in order to drive out residual use.
    A comment which rather misses the point that the only other productive use for horses when we stopped using them for power was manure and glue. The same cannot be said for hydrocarbons given the whole modern world (even excluding energy) is based on their usage. We will never drive out residual use and the world wuold be a much poorer place if we tried.
    We should certainly, at some point, seek to drive out use of fossil fuels for combustion. I am happy to make that clarification.
    And I agree 100%. I have said it for more than 30 years. It is a finite resource and way too valuable to burn.
  • Jim_MillerJim_Miller Posts: 3,957
    This will shock some, but there is another use for horses. Some years ago, an Indian tribe here in the Northwest applied for a permit to raise horses for the export meat market. (As I recall, they didn't get it.)

    Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe your neighbors in France would not be surprised by this use.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 24,983

    Boaty McBoatface is leaving for Greenland to check out whether the Gulf Stream/ Escalator is about to stop.

    Kemi Badenoch; " net zero is rubbish".

    When Burnham opens North Sea oil and gas and takes an axe to climate change subsidy in electric bills then Kemi will have proved her point

    It doesn' t have to be all or nothing, just longer transistion for a country with less than 1% of the worlds emissions
    A couple of points.

    1. Time is not on our side. The longer the world takes to transition, the worse things get. Procrastination is not a good idea.

    2. You can split the whole world into arbitrarily small chunks, each of which makes a very small contribution to emissions, so it makes no sense to say that our contribution isn't important. There's no reason why small countries shouldn't put in the same effort as large countries with regard to emission reduction. Emissions per capita is a more sensible measure than total emissions when looking for room for improvement.
    In a European context we aren't doing terribly per capita. About par with France and close to half that of Germany.
    British performance in reducing carbon emissions has been pretty good. But, for various reasons, the country hasn't benefited economically. We buy wind turbines from Denmark, solar panels and batteries from China, and the French state profits from the subsidies for renewable energy.

    Also, the country that pioneered civil nuclear energy now has to go around the world to find people to build new nuclear power stations.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 34,763
    dixiedean said:

    Boaty McBoatface is leaving for Greenland to check out whether the Gulf Stream/ Escalator is about to stop.

    Kemi Badenoch; " net zero is rubbish".

    When Burnham opens North Sea oil and gas and takes an axe to climate change subsidy in electric bills then Kemi will have proved her point

    It doesn' t have to be all or nothing, just longer transistion for a country with less than 1% of the worlds emissions
    Huh? Because of fossil fuel emissions the Escalator likely stops. So let's burn more fossil fuels.
    Not drilling for North Sea oil and gas has done nothing to reduce our fossil fuel emissions. We have just bought the oil and gas from elsewhere at a higher cost. That is what has been so dumb about Miliband's actions.
    There are about 900,000 horses in Britain.

    The internet suggests there were about 3.3 million horses in Britain in 1900.

    It's often said that cars replaced horses for transportation (and similarly tractors in agriculture) without horses having to be banned, and that this is a model for how zero carbon energy should replace fossil fuels. And I have a deal of sympathy for that view. And yet, the population of horses has only declined by about three-quarters.

    There may come a time where we want to restrict fossil fuel extraction in order to drive out residual use.
    A comment which rather misses the point that the only other productive use for horses when we stopped using them for power was manure and glue. The same cannot be said for hydrocarbons given the whole modern world (even excluding energy) is based on their usage. We will never drive out residual use and the world wuold be a much poorer place if we tried.
    The main productive use for horses is sport and hobbies.
    Which is where we'll most likely end up with the ICE I'd imagine.
    I must admit I was specifially not including sport and hobbies in 'productive use'. Manure and glue is so much snappier.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 92,268
    edited 1:38PM
    Starmer tells MPs 'this is the end of my political journey'

    That sounds like he will definitely be stepping down at the next GE and not interested in taking a role like Foriegn Secretary or Attonery General as some have suggested that he might be a better fit for.
  • FossFoss Posts: 2,909

    Starmer tells MPs 'this is the end of my political journey'

    That sounds like he will definitely be stepping down at the next GE and not interested in taking a role like Foriegn Secretary or Attonery General as some have suggested that he might be a better fit for.

    Or entering the Lords.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 137,560
    dixiedean said:

    HYUFD said:

    God, on topic, people are idiots

    I believe Reform are on the side of the establishment and not ordinary people. The evidence is compelling.
    At a push they are on the side of the rich self made and some hedge funds and the rightwing press. They are certainly not on the side of the civil service, the CBI, the judiciary and the BBC and C of E
    Not the zero hours worker. Or even your average worker.
    Depends, if that worker is self employed and fiercely pro Brexit and anti immigration and anti woke they probably are
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 24,983

    Starmer tells MPs 'this is the end of my political journey'

    That sounds like he will definitely be stepping down at the next GE and not interested in taking a role like Foriegn Secretary or Attonery General as some have suggested that he might be a better fit for.

    Still five days until he heads to the Palace to resign. Does he have a lot to pack up in Number 10?
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 34,763

    Boaty McBoatface is leaving for Greenland to check out whether the Gulf Stream/ Escalator is about to stop.

    Kemi Badenoch; " net zero is rubbish".

    When Burnham opens North Sea oil and gas and takes an axe to climate change subsidy in electric bills then Kemi will have proved her point

    It doesn' t have to be all or nothing, just longer transistion for a country with less than 1% of the worlds emissions
    Huh? Because of fossil fuel emissions the Escalator likely stops. So let's burn more fossil fuels.
    Not drilling for North Sea oil and gas has done nothing to reduce our fossil fuel emissions. We have just bought the oil and gas from elsewhere at a higher cost. That is what has been so dumb about Miliband's actions.
    You may have a decent short term geopolitical and economic point but the climate science from the last 150 years is compelling. Burning fossil fuels has negatively affected global warming, which was the ironic point I was making to G.

    For what it is worth, I suspect the populist Burnham will grant new licences.
    My point being that, in that case, you deal with demand not supply. Because stopping drilling on the UKCS does not decrease supply or demand at all. It just increases the cost for the country.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 92,268
    Foss said:

    Starmer tells MPs 'this is the end of my political journey'

    That sounds like he will definitely be stepping down at the next GE and not interested in taking a role like Foriegn Secretary or Attonery General as some have suggested that he might be a better fit for.

    Or entering the Lords.
    Good point.
  • eekeek Posts: 34,541

    Boaty McBoatface is leaving for Greenland to check out whether the Gulf Stream/ Escalator is about to stop.

    Kemi Badenoch; " net zero is rubbish".

    When Burnham opens North Sea oil and gas and takes an axe to climate change subsidy in electric bills then Kemi will have proved her point

    It doesn' t have to be all or nothing, just longer transistion for a country with less than 1% of the worlds emissions
    Huh? Because of fossil fuel emissions the Escalator likely stops. So let's burn more fossil fuels.
    Not drilling for North Sea oil and gas has done nothing to reduce our fossil fuel emissions. We have just bought the oil and gas from elsewhere at a higher cost. That is what has been so dumb about Miliband's actions.
    You may have a decent short term geopolitical and economic point but the climate science from the last 150 years is compelling. Burning fossil fuels has negatively affected global warming, which was the ironic point I was making to G.

    For what it is worth, I suspect the populist Burnham will grant new licences.
    My point being that, in that case, you deal with demand not supply. Because stopping drilling on the UKCS does not decrease supply or demand at all. It just increases the cost for the country.
    And removes a source of tax and income..
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 34,763

    Boaty McBoatface is leaving for Greenland to check out whether the Gulf Stream/ Escalator is about to stop.

    Kemi Badenoch; " net zero is rubbish".

    When Burnham opens North Sea oil and gas and takes an axe to climate change subsidy in electric bills then Kemi will have proved her point

    It doesn' t have to be all or nothing, just longer transistion for a country with less than 1% of the worlds emissions
    A couple of points.

    1. Time is not on our side. The longer the world takes to transition, the worse things get. Procrastination is not a good idea.

    2. You can split the whole world into arbitrarily small chunks, each of which makes a very small contribution to emissions, so it makes no sense to say that our contribution isn't important. There's no reason why small countries shouldn't put in the same effort as large countries with regard to emission reduction. Emissions per capita is a more sensible measure than total emissions when looking for room for improvement.
    In a European context we aren't doing terribly per capita. About par with France and close to half that of Germany.
    British performance in reducing carbon emissions has been pretty good. But, for various reasons, the country hasn't benefited economically. We buy wind turbines from Denmark, solar panels and batteries from China, and the French state profits from the subsidies for renewable energy.

    Also, the country that pioneered civil nuclear energy now has to go around the world to find people to build new nuclear power stations.
    The problem with globalisation.
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 10,826

    Starmer tells MPs 'this is the end of my political journey'

    That sounds like he will definitely be stepping down at the next GE and not interested in taking a role like Foriegn Secretary or Attonery General as some have suggested that he might be a better fit for.

    Fair enough. Could he really be arsed to do any of that given all that happened?
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 34,763
    MattW said:

    Boaty McBoatface is leaving for Greenland to check out whether the Gulf Stream/ Escalator is about to stop.

    Kemi Badenoch; " net zero is rubbish".

    When Burnham opens North Sea oil and gas and takes an axe to climate change subsidy in electric bills then Kemi will have proved her point

    It doesn' t have to be all or nothing, just longer transistion for a country with less than 1% of the worlds emissions
    Huh? Because of fossil fuel emissions the Escalator likely stops. So let's burn more fossil fuels.
    Not drilling for North Sea oil and gas has done nothing to reduce our fossil fuel emissions. We have just bought the oil and gas from elsewhere at a higher cost. That is what has been so dumb about Miliband's actions.
    There are about 900,000 horses in Britain.

    The internet suggests there were about 3.3 million horses in Britain in 1900.

    It's often said that cars replaced horses for transportation (and similarly tractors in agriculture) without horses having to be banned, and that this is a model for how zero carbon energy should replace fossil fuels. And I have a deal of sympathy for that view. And yet, the population of horses has only declined by about three-quarters.

    There may come a time where we want to restrict fossil fuel extraction in order to drive out residual use.
    If I am dictator for a day, my modest (but also slightly ambitious) proposal for horses is that all canal towpaths be declared bridleways by stature law, since that is what they were before. It would need some trimming, since not all routes continue through, and tow paths do not get winding holes.

    And I wonder about imposing equine pooper-scoopers. *

    * In practice horse-nappies are available.
    ** Don't get a horse nappy mixed up with a nappy horse.
    Moving from road to rail and water for long distance goods transport would certainly be a very sensible move. Much of the rest of Europe do it very well.
  • FlatlanderFlatlander Posts: 6,119
    edited 1:45PM

    dixiedean said:

    Boaty McBoatface is leaving for Greenland to check out whether the Gulf Stream/ Escalator is about to stop.

    Kemi Badenoch; " net zero is rubbish".

    When Burnham opens North Sea oil and gas and takes an axe to climate change subsidy in electric bills then Kemi will have proved her point

    It doesn' t have to be all or nothing, just longer transistion for a country with less than 1% of the worlds emissions
    Huh? Because of fossil fuel emissions the Escalator likely stops. So let's burn more fossil fuels.
    Not drilling for North Sea oil and gas has done nothing to reduce our fossil fuel emissions. We have just bought the oil and gas from elsewhere at a higher cost. That is what has been so dumb about Miliband's actions.
    There are about 900,000 horses in Britain.

    The internet suggests there were about 3.3 million horses in Britain in 1900.

    It's often said that cars replaced horses for transportation (and similarly tractors in agriculture) without horses having to be banned, and that this is a model for how zero carbon energy should replace fossil fuels. And I have a deal of sympathy for that view. And yet, the population of horses has only declined by about three-quarters.

    There may come a time where we want to restrict fossil fuel extraction in order to drive out residual use.
    A comment which rather misses the point that the only other productive use for horses when we stopped using them for power was manure and glue. The same cannot be said for hydrocarbons given the whole modern world (even excluding energy) is based on their usage. We will never drive out residual use and the world wuold be a much poorer place if we tried.
    The main productive use for horses is sport and hobbies.
    Which is where we'll most likely end up with the ICE I'd imagine.
    I must admit I was specifially not including sport and hobbies in 'productive use'. Manure and glue is so much snappier.
    I am currently sat in a grass field owned by a council. It is nice enough but not terribly species rich. I suspect they don't have a lot of money for management.

    The field next door is on the same soil but is much more interesting. Probably because there are half a dozen Traveller horses in it...

    They are quite good for conservation grazing in some contexts.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 92,268

    Starmer tells MPs 'this is the end of my political journey'

    That sounds like he will definitely be stepping down at the next GE and not interested in taking a role like Foriegn Secretary or Attonery General as some have suggested that he might be a better fit for.

    Fair enough. Could he really be arsed to do any of that given all that happened?
    The one thing he genuinely seemed to enjoy was the global meetups. Foreign Secretary you get plenty of opportunity to do that.

    But I think he is very wise to say he won't given running commenting from the backbenchers. Sunak has done similar.
  • Jim_MillerJim_Miller Posts: 3,957

    Here's useful interactive chart for thinking about CO2 emissions: https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/annual-co2-emissions-per-country.
    https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/annual-co2-emissions-per-country

    Bottom line: Those who want to see CO2 emissions reduced should not buy anything manufactured in China. And should think hard about buying anything manufactured in India.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 80,115

    This will shock some, but there is another use for horses. Some years ago, an Indian tribe here in the Northwest applied for a permit to raise horses for the export meat market. (As I recall, they didn't get it.)

    Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe your neighbors in France would not be surprised by this use.

    Nor would our major supermarkets...
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 55,770
    edited 1:54PM

    Yvette is now favourite to be CoE on BF

    As my sources expected.
    Yvette!

    The best a Burnham can get.
    The worry isn’t that it’s a bad choice, but that it’s a choice intended to triangulate between the negatives, rather than made for positive reasons. All UK political history suggests that trust between PM and CofE is absolutely essential to steer the ship of government confidently and avoid the sort of internecine strife that has bedeveilled governments past, late Blair and Brown being a classic example (but also Lamont and Major, rinse and repeat back through the decades). So one can readily understand why Burnham wouldn’t want someone like Streeting, who would put his grandmother up on eBay for a smidgin of career progression, inside the tent, talented though he might be. Better send him back to health to sort out his own mess. But picking Miliband risks upsetting the markets at fear that UK finances are suddenly under the control of some Mamdani lookalike.

    Cooper avoids both of these extremes; the question is whether she adds anything other than being amenable enough to embrace her PM’s agenda. Deeper worriers might also wonder whether her appointment opens the door to her rejected-by-the-voters husband tap-dancing his way into becoming a back-seat driver.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 80,115
    edited 1:51PM

    Boaty McBoatface is leaving for Greenland to check out whether the Gulf Stream/ Escalator is about to stop.

    Kemi Badenoch; " net zero is rubbish".

    When Burnham opens North Sea oil and gas and takes an axe to climate change subsidy in electric bills then Kemi will have proved her point

    It doesn' t have to be all or nothing, just longer transistion for a country with less than 1% of the worlds emissions
    Huh? Because of fossil fuel emissions the Escalator likely stops. So let's burn more fossil fuels.
    Not drilling for North Sea oil and gas has done nothing to reduce our fossil fuel emissions. We have just bought the oil and gas from elsewhere at a higher cost. That is what has been so dumb about Miliband's actions.
    There are about 900,000 horses in Britain.

    The internet suggests there were about 3.3 million horses in Britain in 1900.

    It's often said that cars replaced horses for transportation (and similarly tractors in agriculture) without horses having to be banned, and that this is a model for how zero carbon energy should replace fossil fuels. And I have a deal of sympathy for that view. And yet, the population of horses has only declined by about three-quarters.

    There may come a time where we want to restrict fossil fuel extraction in order to drive out residual use.
    That's actually extraordinary, that there are so many horses when the economic demand for their services has declined so much. Not that I'm complaining, they are beautiful animals.
    I think the 3.3 million was for agriculture, including Ireland. I'd expect about the same number to be used for transport and leisure.

    So it's a very steep fall, but given the popularity of horse racing, riding, dressage, even keeping them as pets, and factoring in both a 60% rise in population and a considerable increase in wealth, 900,000 is not that surprising as a figure.
  • scampi25scampi25 Posts: 616

    Starmer tells MPs 'this is the end of my political journey'

    That sounds like he will definitely be stepping down at the next GE and not interested in taking a role like Foriegn Secretary or Attonery General as some have suggested that he might be a better fit for.

    Still five days until he heads to the Palace to resign. Does he have a lot to pack up in Number 10?
    A fair number of suits and underwear.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 24,983

    Boaty McBoatface is leaving for Greenland to check out whether the Gulf Stream/ Escalator is about to stop.

    Kemi Badenoch; " net zero is rubbish".

    When Burnham opens North Sea oil and gas and takes an axe to climate change subsidy in electric bills then Kemi will have proved her point

    It doesn' t have to be all or nothing, just longer transistion for a country with less than 1% of the worlds emissions
    Huh? Because of fossil fuel emissions the Escalator likely stops. So let's burn more fossil fuels.
    Not drilling for North Sea oil and gas has done nothing to reduce our fossil fuel emissions. We have just bought the oil and gas from elsewhere at a higher cost. That is what has been so dumb about Miliband's actions.
    There are about 900,000 horses in Britain.

    The internet suggests there were about 3.3 million horses in Britain in 1900.

    It's often said that cars replaced horses for transportation (and similarly tractors in agriculture) without horses having to be banned, and that this is a model for how zero carbon energy should replace fossil fuels. And I have a deal of sympathy for that view. And yet, the population of horses has only declined by about three-quarters.

    There may come a time where we want to restrict fossil fuel extraction in order to drive out residual use.
    That's actually extraordinary, that there are so many horses when the economic demand for their services has declined so much. Not that I'm complaining, they are beautiful animals.
    I was surprised too. I was expecting a decline of around 90%.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 24,983
    ydoethur said:

    Boaty McBoatface is leaving for Greenland to check out whether the Gulf Stream/ Escalator is about to stop.

    Kemi Badenoch; " net zero is rubbish".

    When Burnham opens North Sea oil and gas and takes an axe to climate change subsidy in electric bills then Kemi will have proved her point

    It doesn' t have to be all or nothing, just longer transistion for a country with less than 1% of the worlds emissions
    Huh? Because of fossil fuel emissions the Escalator likely stops. So let's burn more fossil fuels.
    Not drilling for North Sea oil and gas has done nothing to reduce our fossil fuel emissions. We have just bought the oil and gas from elsewhere at a higher cost. That is what has been so dumb about Miliband's actions.
    There are about 900,000 horses in Britain.

    The internet suggests there were about 3.3 million horses in Britain in 1900.

    It's often said that cars replaced horses for transportation (and similarly tractors in agriculture) without horses having to be banned, and that this is a model for how zero carbon energy should replace fossil fuels. And I have a deal of sympathy for that view. And yet, the population of horses has only declined by about three-quarters.

    There may come a time where we want to restrict fossil fuel extraction in order to drive out residual use.
    That's actually extraordinary, that there are so many horses when the economic demand for their services has declined so much. Not that I'm complaining, they are beautiful animals.
    I think the 3.3 million was for agriculture, including Ireland. I'd expect about the same number to be used for transport and leisure.

    So it's a very steep fall, but given the popularity of horse racing, riding, dressage, even keeping them as pets, and factoring in both a 60% rise in population and a considerable increase in wealth, 900,000 is not that surprising as a figure.
    The agriculture horse census gives a figure of ~1.5 million horses for 1900-1910.
  • KnightOutKnightOut Posts: 286
    HYUFD said:

    God, on topic, people are idiots

    I believe Reform are on the side of the establishment and not ordinary people. The evidence is compelling.
    At a push they are on the side of the rich self made and some hedge funds and the rightwing press and armed forces. They are certainly not on the side of the civil service, the CBI, Oxbridge, the judiciary, the police and the BBC and C of E
    Indeed. The question of who or what 'The Establishment' is, does not have a single, unambiguous answer.

    And it's very easy to become part of the Establishment without acknowledging or recognising it, because the mind's eye still sees an earlier Establishment that ones own kind has largely superseded.

    The tactical narratives of revolutionary Russia are still fairly effective.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 23,351

    Starmer tells MPs 'this is the end of my political journey'

    That sounds like he will definitely be stepping down at the next GE and not interested in taking a role like Foriegn Secretary or Attonery General as some have suggested that he might be a better fit for.

    Fair enough. Could he really be arsed to do any of that given all that happened?
    The one thing he genuinely seemed to enjoy was the global meetups. Foreign Secretary you get plenty of opportunity to do that.

    But I think he is very wise to say he won't given running commenting from the backbenchers. Sunak has done similar.
    Besides, it would be good to get back to having a choice of plausible sucessors to the Prime Minister, and that basically means that the Chancellor and Foreign Secretary need to be at least semi-plausible.

    We do need to work out how to use the experience of discarded Prime Ministers better. Partly so they don't cause trouble, but also because they nearly all have something useful to say. I like the concept of the Club de Madrid, a sort-of consultancy of former national leaders set up by Jose-Maria Aznar;

    https://clubmadrid.org/club-de-madrid/
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 9,655

    ydoethur said:

    Boaty McBoatface is leaving for Greenland to check out whether the Gulf Stream/ Escalator is about to stop.

    Kemi Badenoch; " net zero is rubbish".

    When Burnham opens North Sea oil and gas and takes an axe to climate change subsidy in electric bills then Kemi will have proved her point

    It doesn' t have to be all or nothing, just longer transistion for a country with less than 1% of the worlds emissions
    Huh? Because of fossil fuel emissions the Escalator likely stops. So let's burn more fossil fuels.
    Not drilling for North Sea oil and gas has done nothing to reduce our fossil fuel emissions. We have just bought the oil and gas from elsewhere at a higher cost. That is what has been so dumb about Miliband's actions.
    There are about 900,000 horses in Britain.

    The internet suggests there were about 3.3 million horses in Britain in 1900.

    It's often said that cars replaced horses for transportation (and similarly tractors in agriculture) without horses having to be banned, and that this is a model for how zero carbon energy should replace fossil fuels. And I have a deal of sympathy for that view. And yet, the population of horses has only declined by about three-quarters.

    There may come a time where we want to restrict fossil fuel extraction in order to drive out residual use.
    That's actually extraordinary, that there are so many horses when the economic demand for their services has declined so much. Not that I'm complaining, they are beautiful animals.
    I think the 3.3 million was for agriculture, including Ireland. I'd expect about the same number to be used for transport and leisure.

    So it's a very steep fall, but given the popularity of horse racing, riding, dressage, even keeping them as pets, and factoring in both a 60% rise in population and a considerable increase in wealth, 900,000 is not that surprising as a figure.
    The agriculture horse census gives a figure of ~1.5 million horses for 1900-1910.
    Are we (and were they) counting donkeys?
  • eekeek Posts: 34,541

    Starmer tells MPs 'this is the end of my political journey'

    That sounds like he will definitely be stepping down at the next GE and not interested in taking a role like Foriegn Secretary or Attonery General as some have suggested that he might be a better fit for.

    Fair enough. Could he really be arsed to do any of that given all that happened?
    The one thing he genuinely seemed to enjoy was the global meetups. Foreign Secretary you get plenty of opportunity to do that.

    But I think he is very wise to say he won't given running commenting from the backbenchers. Sunak has done similar.
    Besides, it would be good to get back to having a choice of plausible sucessors to the Prime Minister, and that basically means that the Chancellor and Foreign Secretary need to be at least semi-plausible.

    We do need to work out how to use the experience of discarded Prime Ministers better. Partly so they don't cause trouble, but also because they nearly all have something useful to say. I like the concept of the Club de Madrid, a sort-of consultancy of former national leaders set up by Jose-Maria Aznar;

    https://clubmadrid.org/club-de-madrid/
    Could we make sure that the admission criteria was at least 70 days in office
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 80,115

    ydoethur said:

    Boaty McBoatface is leaving for Greenland to check out whether the Gulf Stream/ Escalator is about to stop.

    Kemi Badenoch; " net zero is rubbish".

    When Burnham opens North Sea oil and gas and takes an axe to climate change subsidy in electric bills then Kemi will have proved her point

    It doesn' t have to be all or nothing, just longer transistion for a country with less than 1% of the worlds emissions
    Huh? Because of fossil fuel emissions the Escalator likely stops. So let's burn more fossil fuels.
    Not drilling for North Sea oil and gas has done nothing to reduce our fossil fuel emissions. We have just bought the oil and gas from elsewhere at a higher cost. That is what has been so dumb about Miliband's actions.
    There are about 900,000 horses in Britain.

    The internet suggests there were about 3.3 million horses in Britain in 1900.

    It's often said that cars replaced horses for transportation (and similarly tractors in agriculture) without horses having to be banned, and that this is a model for how zero carbon energy should replace fossil fuels. And I have a deal of sympathy for that view. And yet, the population of horses has only declined by about three-quarters.

    There may come a time where we want to restrict fossil fuel extraction in order to drive out residual use.
    That's actually extraordinary, that there are so many horses when the economic demand for their services has declined so much. Not that I'm complaining, they are beautiful animals.
    I think the 3.3 million was for agriculture, including Ireland. I'd expect about the same number to be used for transport and leisure.

    So it's a very steep fall, but given the popularity of horse racing, riding, dressage, even keeping them as pets, and factoring in both a 60% rise in population and a considerable increase in wealth, 900,000 is not that surprising as a figure.
    The agriculture horse census gives a figure of ~1.5 million horses for 1900-1910.
    Yes, but I don't think that includes Ireland. I could be wrong.

    I know that 75% of all horses used by the British Army in WW1 came from Ireland, but I'm not exactly sure how the figures played out beyond that.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 62,521

    Starmer tells MPs 'this is the end of my political journey'

    That sounds like he will definitely be stepping down at the next GE and not interested in taking a role like Foriegn Secretary or Attonery General as some have suggested that he might be a better fit for.

    Fair enough. Could he really be arsed to do any of that given all that happened?
    The one thing he genuinely seemed to enjoy was the global meetups. Foreign Secretary you get plenty of opportunity to do that.

    But I think he is very wise to say he won't given running commenting from the backbenchers. Sunak has done similar.
    Besides, it would be good to get back to having a choice of plausible sucessors to the Prime Minister, and that basically means that the Chancellor and Foreign Secretary need to be at least semi-plausible.

    We do need to work out how to use the experience of discarded Prime Ministers better. Partly so they don't cause trouble, but also because they nearly all have something useful to say. I like the concept of the Club de Madrid, a sort-of consultancy of former national leaders set up by Jose-Maria Aznar;

    https://clubmadrid.org/club-de-madrid/
    Given that the former PM club is about to get its 9th living member in Starmer, there are worse ideas out there.
  • FossFoss Posts: 2,909

    Starmer tells MPs 'this is the end of my political journey'

    That sounds like he will definitely be stepping down at the next GE and not interested in taking a role like Foriegn Secretary or Attonery General as some have suggested that he might be a better fit for.

    Fair enough. Could he really be arsed to do any of that given all that happened?
    The one thing he genuinely seemed to enjoy was the global meetups. Foreign Secretary you get plenty of opportunity to do that.

    But I think he is very wise to say he won't given running commenting from the backbenchers. Sunak has done similar.
    Besides, it would be good to get back to having a choice of plausible sucessors to the Prime Minister, and that basically means that the Chancellor and Foreign Secretary need to be at least semi-plausible.

    We do need to work out how to use the experience of discarded Prime Ministers better. Partly so they don't cause trouble, but also because they nearly all have something useful to say. I like the concept of the Club de Madrid, a sort-of consultancy of former national leaders set up by Jose-Maria Aznar;

    https://clubmadrid.org/club-de-madrid/
    Former PMs still remain part of the Privy Council. If a current PM wishes to consult - in confidence - a former PM then the structures exist for them to do so.
  • DopermeanDopermean Posts: 3,392
    IanB2 said:

    Yvette is now favourite to be CoE on BF

    As my sources expected.
    Yvette!

    The best a Burnham can get.
    The worry isn’t that it’s a bad choice, but that it’s a choice intended to triangulate between the negatives, rather than made for positive reasons. All UK political history suggests that trust between PM and CofE is absolutely essential to steer the ship of government confidently and avoid the sort of internecine strife that has bedeveilled governments past, late Blair and Brown being a classic example (but also Lamont and Major, rinse and repeat back through the decades). So one can readily understand why Burnham wouldn’t want someone like Streeting, who would put his grandmother up on eBay for a smidgin of career progression, inside the tent, talented though he might be. Better send him back to health to sort out his own mess. But picking Miliband risks upsetting the markets at fear that UK finances are suddenly under the control of some Mamdani lookalike.

    Cooper avoids both of these extremes; the question is whether she adds anything other than being amenable enough to embrace her PM’s agenda. Deeper worriers might also wonder whether her appointment opens the door to her rejected-by-the-voters husband tap-dancing his way into becoming a back-seat driver.
    Given that in Streeting's absence there's been progress in the industrial disputes probably better that he doesn't.
    Picking Miliband would strengthen the green industrial revolution, net zero and electrification which would be sensible but hated by the right wing media, not picking Miliband will result in equivocation and dilution of those policies.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 40,542
    HYUFD said:

    dixiedean said:

    HYUFD said:

    God, on topic, people are idiots

    I believe Reform are on the side of the establishment and not ordinary people. The evidence is compelling.
    At a push they are on the side of the rich self made and some hedge funds and the rightwing press. They are certainly not on the side of the civil service, the CBI, the judiciary and the BBC and C of E
    Not the zero hours worker. Or even your average worker.
    Depends, if that worker is self employed and fiercely pro Brexit and anti immigration and anti woke they probably are
    You are putting the cart before the horse there.

    Farage has told the dispossessed that they are dispossessed because of the EU/ immigrants/disabled claimants/ LGBTQ people and they believe him. He does not tell them they are poor because of Fortune 500 CEOs/ crypto billionaires/Russian oligarchs/ off shore tax avoiders. Perhaps if he did he could claim more of an affinity with his voter base.

    Why would the self employed blow smoke up Farage's fundament?
  • FeersumEnjineeyaFeersumEnjineeya Posts: 5,383


    Here's useful interactive chart for thinking about CO2 emissions: https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/annual-co2-emissions-per-country.
    https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/annual-co2-emissions-per-country

    Bottom line: Those who want to see CO2 emissions reduced should not buy anything manufactured in China. And should think hard about buying anything manufactured in India.

    When it comes to buying stuff, it doesn't really make sense to consider the total emissions of a country. I'd instead look at the energy mix used to generate the electricity that is used to make the item in question. On that metric, it's best to buy from the UK or EU, where most countries manage to generate more than half their electricity from low carbon sources. Avoid India, China and the US.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 37,667
    Sandpit said:

    Starmer tells MPs 'this is the end of my political journey'

    That sounds like he will definitely be stepping down at the next GE and not interested in taking a role like Foriegn Secretary or Attonery General as some have suggested that he might be a better fit for.

    Fair enough. Could he really be arsed to do any of that given all that happened?
    The one thing he genuinely seemed to enjoy was the global meetups. Foreign Secretary you get plenty of opportunity to do that.

    But I think he is very wise to say he won't given running commenting from the backbenchers. Sunak has done similar.
    Besides, it would be good to get back to having a choice of plausible sucessors to the Prime Minister, and that basically means that the Chancellor and Foreign Secretary need to be at least semi-plausible.

    We do need to work out how to use the experience of discarded Prime Ministers better. Partly so they don't cause trouble, but also because they nearly all have something useful to say. I like the concept of the Club de Madrid, a sort-of consultancy of former national leaders set up by Jose-Maria Aznar;

    https://clubmadrid.org/club-de-madrid/
    Given that the former PM club is about to get its 9th living member in Starmer, there are worse ideas out there.
    The idea of anyone consulting either or both of Johnson and Truss fills me with horror!
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 67,100
    I bet somewhere (can't remember where and can't remember when) £50 at evens that SKS wouldn't fight the next election, and now I can't find the betslip.

    Pretty sure in was in 2024 as it became clear very early on just how rapidly he was shitting the bed.

    It's probably Ladbrokes, who make it impossible to search your betting history.
  • DopermeanDopermean Posts: 3,392

    Pulpstar said:

    As a beneficiary of the below it is ridiculous 47 years of Neoliberalism unopposed has delivered it.

    Extraordinary fact: £1 in every £2 paid in income tax in Britain goes directly to the retired.

    Our current pensions set-up and Triple Lock is not only unsustainable, but crippling the economy for those building it.

    Whats the plan then, those currently in receipt live (relatively) high on the hog whilst the retirement drawbridge is pulled up for younger generations ?

    Keeping the triple lock in place and at the same time accelerating the future pension age is unbelievably unfair.
    They are the ones who vote.
    Fair point, time to cap the voting age! :)
  • CookieCookie Posts: 17,777

    HYUFD said:

    dixiedean said:

    HYUFD said:

    God, on topic, people are idiots

    I believe Reform are on the side of the establishment and not ordinary people. The evidence is compelling.
    At a push they are on the side of the rich self made and some hedge funds and the rightwing press. They are certainly not on the side of the civil service, the CBI, the judiciary and the BBC and C of E
    Not the zero hours worker. Or even your average worker.
    Depends, if that worker is self employed and fiercely pro Brexit and anti immigration and anti woke they probably are
    You are putting the cart before the horse there.

    Farage has told the dispossessed that they are dispossessed because of the EU/ immigrants/disabled claimants/ LGBTQ people and they believe him. He does not tell them they are poor because of Fortune 500 CEOs/ crypto billionaires/Russian oligarchs/ off shore tax avoiders. Perhaps if he did he could claim more of an affinity with his voter base.

    Why would the self employed blow smoke up Farage's fundament?
    I think you're confusing weathervanes and signposts here. What Farage tells voters is what they want to hear. They aren't ready-made Farage-followers, they are people with certain views and vote for him because he articulates them. If he told voters that they were wrong and actually all their woes were due to something else, they would drift away to someone else.
  • FeersumEnjineeyaFeersumEnjineeya Posts: 5,383
    edited 2:14PM

    Boaty McBoatface is leaving for Greenland to check out whether the Gulf Stream/ Escalator is about to stop.

    Kemi Badenoch; " net zero is rubbish".

    When Burnham opens North Sea oil and gas and takes an axe to climate change subsidy in electric bills then Kemi will have proved her point

    It doesn' t have to be all or nothing, just longer transistion for a country with less than 1% of the worlds emissions
    Huh? Because of fossil fuel emissions the Escalator likely stops. So let's burn more fossil fuels.
    Not drilling for North Sea oil and gas has done nothing to reduce our fossil fuel emissions. We have just bought the oil and gas from elsewhere at a higher cost. That is what has been so dumb about Miliband's actions.
    Not drilling for North Sea oil and gas much surely have reduced global emissions by some amount because it will have reduced the amount of oil and gas on the global market and therefore pushed up their prices, thus making those fuels a little less economic to use.
    Nope. Because there was, and is, still a large surplus of oil and gas available simply by opening taps. The only things that change oil and gas price are demand and the supply from the big producing countries. What we do in the UK as far as drilling is concerned has zero impact on world oil and gas prices - just as it has zero impact on our emissions.

    Meanwhile we import LNG from the USA - losing 5% of it in transit - and paying nearly £1 billion a year in fees, and we import gas via a pipeline from Norway - taken from the same basin that we are forbidden from drilling - and pay over £2 billion in fees to Norway for it (over and above the actual market price of the gas)
    That makes no sense at all. If there is a large surplus of oil and gas available simply by opening taps, as you state, why the hell would it make sense for us to drill for even more of the stuff?
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 8,304
    carnforth said:

    ydoethur said:

    Boaty McBoatface is leaving for Greenland to check out whether the Gulf Stream/ Escalator is about to stop.

    Kemi Badenoch; " net zero is rubbish".

    When Burnham opens North Sea oil and gas and takes an axe to climate change subsidy in electric bills then Kemi will have proved her point

    It doesn' t have to be all or nothing, just longer transistion for a country with less than 1% of the worlds emissions
    Huh? Because of fossil fuel emissions the Escalator likely stops. So let's burn more fossil fuels.
    Not drilling for North Sea oil and gas has done nothing to reduce our fossil fuel emissions. We have just bought the oil and gas from elsewhere at a higher cost. That is what has been so dumb about Miliband's actions.
    There are about 900,000 horses in Britain.

    The internet suggests there were about 3.3 million horses in Britain in 1900.

    It's often said that cars replaced horses for transportation (and similarly tractors in agriculture) without horses having to be banned, and that this is a model for how zero carbon energy should replace fossil fuels. And I have a deal of sympathy for that view. And yet, the population of horses has only declined by about three-quarters.

    There may come a time where we want to restrict fossil fuel extraction in order to drive out residual use.
    That's actually extraordinary, that there are so many horses when the economic demand for their services has declined so much. Not that I'm complaining, they are beautiful animals.
    I think the 3.3 million was for agriculture, including Ireland. I'd expect about the same number to be used for transport and leisure.

    So it's a very steep fall, but given the popularity of horse racing, riding, dressage, even keeping them as pets, and factoring in both a 60% rise in population and a considerable increase in wealth, 900,000 is not that surprising as a figure.
    The agriculture horse census gives a figure of ~1.5 million horses for 1900-1910.
    Are we (and were they) counting donkeys?
    They were supposed to be counting sheep, but fell asleep.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 29,225

    Police have arrested a man for threatening to kill Nigel Farage, The Telegraph can disclose.

    The suspect – who has described himself as a terrorist on social media – warned Mr Farage: “I am going to shoot you in the head if you win.” It is the first time an instruction to police by the parliamentary authorities to investigate a threat to kill Mr Farage has resulted in an arrest.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2026/07/15/police-arrest-man-over-threat-to-shoot-nigel-farage/

    #pbfreespeech
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 62,521

    Starmer tells MPs 'this is the end of my political journey'

    That sounds like he will definitely be stepping down at the next GE and not interested in taking a role like Foriegn Secretary or Attonery General as some have suggested that he might be a better fit for.

    Still five days until he heads to the Palace to resign. Does he have a lot to pack up in Number 10?
    His wife has a nice collection of dresses courtesy of Lord Alli, does she not?
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 67,100
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Boaty McBoatface is leaving for Greenland to check out whether the Gulf Stream/ Escalator is about to stop.

    Kemi Badenoch; " net zero is rubbish".

    When Burnham opens North Sea oil and gas and takes an axe to climate change subsidy in electric bills then Kemi will have proved her point

    It doesn' t have to be all or nothing, just longer transistion for a country with less than 1% of the worlds emissions
    Huh? Because of fossil fuel emissions the Escalator likely stops. So let's burn more fossil fuels.
    Not drilling for North Sea oil and gas has done nothing to reduce our fossil fuel emissions. We have just bought the oil and gas from elsewhere at a higher cost. That is what has been so dumb about Miliband's actions.
    There are about 900,000 horses in Britain.

    The internet suggests there were about 3.3 million horses in Britain in 1900.

    It's often said that cars replaced horses for transportation (and similarly tractors in agriculture) without horses having to be banned, and that this is a model for how zero carbon energy should replace fossil fuels. And I have a deal of sympathy for that view. And yet, the population of horses has only declined by about three-quarters.

    There may come a time where we want to restrict fossil fuel extraction in order to drive out residual use.
    That's actually extraordinary, that there are so many horses when the economic demand for their services has declined so much. Not that I'm complaining, they are beautiful animals.
    I think the 3.3 million was for agriculture, including Ireland. I'd expect about the same number to be used for transport and leisure.

    So it's a very steep fall, but given the popularity of horse racing, riding, dressage, even keeping them as pets, and factoring in both a 60% rise in population and a considerable increase in wealth, 900,000 is not that surprising as a figure.
    The agriculture horse census gives a figure of ~1.5 million horses for 1900-1910.
    Yes, but I don't think that includes Ireland. I could be wrong.

    I know that 75% of all horses used by the British Army in WW1 came from Ireland, but I'm not exactly sure how the figures played out beyond that.
    The Asquithwave?
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 48,208
    What an incredible load of wank.
    Apart from anything else the almost Harriers seem to have French roundels on them.

    https://x.com/crewkernegaz/status/2077271947101286539?s=46&t=fJymV-V84rexmlQMLXHHJQ
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 28,013
    viewcode said:

    Police have arrested a man for threatening to kill Nigel Farage, The Telegraph can disclose.

    The suspect – who has described himself as a terrorist on social media – warned Mr Farage: “I am going to shoot you in the head if you win.” It is the first time an instruction to police by the parliamentary authorities to investigate a threat to kill Mr Farage has resulted in an arrest.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2026/07/15/police-arrest-man-over-threat-to-shoot-nigel-farage/

    #pbfreespeech
    Can you explain what you mean when you post this?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 137,560
    edited 2:21PM

    HYUFD said:

    dixiedean said:

    HYUFD said:

    God, on topic, people are idiots

    I believe Reform are on the side of the establishment and not ordinary people. The evidence is compelling.
    At a push they are on the side of the rich self made and some hedge funds and the rightwing press. They are certainly not on the side of the civil service, the CBI, the judiciary and the BBC and C of E
    Not the zero hours worker. Or even your average worker.
    Depends, if that worker is self employed and fiercely pro Brexit and anti immigration and anti woke they probably are
    You are putting the cart before the horse there.

    Farage has told the dispossessed that they are dispossessed because of the EU/ immigrants/disabled claimants/ LGBTQ people and they believe him. He does not tell them they are poor because of Fortune 500 CEOs/ crypto billionaires/Russian oligarchs/ off shore tax avoiders. Perhaps if he did he could claim more of an affinity with his voter base.

    Why would the self employed blow smoke up Farage's fundament?
    As they are over taxed and over regulated in their view, they don't claim welfare and their business doesn't depend on tax subsidies from billionaires and the rich either.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 62,521
    edited 2:29PM
    dixiedean said:

    Boaty McBoatface is leaving for Greenland to check out whether the Gulf Stream/ Escalator is about to stop.

    Kemi Badenoch; " net zero is rubbish".

    When Burnham opens North Sea oil and gas and takes an axe to climate change subsidy in electric bills then Kemi will have proved her point

    It doesn' t have to be all or nothing, just longer transistion for a country with less than 1% of the worlds emissions
    Huh? Because of fossil fuel emissions the Escalator likely stops. So let's burn more fossil fuels.
    Not drilling for North Sea oil and gas has done nothing to reduce our fossil fuel emissions. We have just bought the oil and gas from elsewhere at a higher cost. That is what has been so dumb about Miliband's actions.
    There are about 900,000 horses in Britain.

    The internet suggests there were about 3.3 million horses in Britain in 1900.

    It's often said that cars replaced horses for transportation (and similarly tractors in agriculture) without horses having to be banned, and that this is a model for how zero carbon energy should replace fossil fuels. And I have a deal of sympathy for that view. And yet, the population of horses has only declined by about three-quarters.

    There may come a time where we want to restrict fossil fuel extraction in order to drive out residual use.
    A comment which rather misses the point that the only other productive use for horses when we stopped using them for power was manure and glue. The same cannot be said for hydrocarbons given the whole modern world (even excluding energy) is based on their usage. We will never drive out residual use and the world wuold be a much poorer place if we tried.
    The main productive use for horses is sport and hobbies.
    Which is where we'll most likely end up with the ICE I'd imagine.
    As the EV technology evolves, almost certainly.

    The EV will be the daily car, and the petrol-powered car will be the one that goes for a blast on Sunday mornings or around a track. Pretty much the same as we now do with horses.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 34,763

    What an incredible load of wank.
    Apart from anything else the almost Harriers seem to have French roundels on them.

    https://x.com/crewkernegaz/status/2077271947101286539?s=46&t=fJymV-V84rexmlQMLXHHJQ

    I fecking hate AI. Even more than I hate the French!!!
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 73,223
    Philip Haigh
    @philatrail

    DfT has announced funding of £33.4 million for ticket gates, including taller ones to prevent barrier jumping. Says that railway loses £400m a year from fare dodging. Lists 18 stations as a first phase for installation.

    https://x.com/philatrail/status/2077310306523500631

    ===

    I wouldn't have thought sleepy Market Harborough was a hotspot for barrier jumping but I haven't been there for about fifteen years so maybe it has changed.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 73,223
    Philip Haigh
    @philatrail

    DfT has announced funding of £33.4 million for ticket gates, including taller ones to prevent barrier jumping. Says that railway loses £400m a year from fare dodging. Lists 18 stations as a first phase for installation.

    https://x.com/philatrail/status/2077310306523500631

    ===

    I wouldn't have thought sleepy Market Harborough was a hotspot for barrier jumping but I haven't been there for about fifteen years so maybe it has changed.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 34,763

    Boaty McBoatface is leaving for Greenland to check out whether the Gulf Stream/ Escalator is about to stop.

    Kemi Badenoch; " net zero is rubbish".

    When Burnham opens North Sea oil and gas and takes an axe to climate change subsidy in electric bills then Kemi will have proved her point

    It doesn' t have to be all or nothing, just longer transistion for a country with less than 1% of the worlds emissions
    Huh? Because of fossil fuel emissions the Escalator likely stops. So let's burn more fossil fuels.
    Not drilling for North Sea oil and gas has done nothing to reduce our fossil fuel emissions. We have just bought the oil and gas from elsewhere at a higher cost. That is what has been so dumb about Miliband's actions.
    Not drilling for North Sea oil and gas much surely have reduced global emissions by some amount because it will have reduced the amount of oil and gas on the global market and therefore pushed up their prices, thus making those fuels a little less economic to use.
    Nope. Because there was, and is, still a large surplus of oil and gas available simply by opening taps. The only things that change oil and gas price are demand and the supply from the big producing countries. What we do in the UK as far as drilling is concerned has zero impact on world oil and gas prices - just as it has zero impact on our emissions.

    Meanwhile we import LNG from the USA - losing 5% of it in transit - and paying nearly £1 billion a year in fees, and we import gas via a pipeline from Norway - taken from the same basin that we are forbidden from drilling - and pay over £2 billion in fees to Norway for it (over and above the actual market price of the gas)
    That makes no sense at all. If there is a large surplus of oil and gas available simply by opening taps, as you state, why the hell would it make sense for us to drill for even more of the stuff?
    Because we then don't pay huge amounts of fees and transport costs - currently just under £3 billion a year just to the US and Norway. Plus we get all the employment and tax benefits. Why are we paying others for oil and gas we can produce ourselves and then pretending we are doing anything at all about emissions by doing so. We are not. It is the ultimate in vanity projects.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 62,521
    edited 2:35PM

    Philip Haigh
    @philatrail

    DfT has announced funding of £33.4 million for ticket gates, including taller ones to prevent barrier jumping. Says that railway loses £400m a year from fare dodging. Lists 18 stations as a first phase for installation.

    https://x.com/philatrail/status/2077310306523500631

    ===

    I wouldn't have thought sleepy Market Harborough was a hotspot for barrier jumping but I haven't been there for about fifteen years so maybe it has changed.

    They didn’t have barriers at all at MH, a couple of years ago when I was there. Will possibly report back over the summer, it’s one of the stations close to my parents’ place in Rutland.

    Not exactly a hotspot for fare evasion, I wouldn’t have thought.
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 29,290

    Boaty McBoatface is leaving for Greenland to check out whether the Gulf Stream/ Escalator is about to stop.

    Kemi Badenoch; " net zero is rubbish".

    When Burnham opens North Sea oil and gas and takes an axe to climate change subsidy in electric bills then Kemi will have proved her point

    It doesn' t have to be all or nothing, just longer transistion for a country with less than 1% of the worlds emissions
    Huh? Because of fossil fuel emissions the Escalator likely stops. So let's burn more fossil fuels.
    Not drilling for North Sea oil and gas has done nothing to reduce our fossil fuel emissions. We have just bought the oil and gas from elsewhere at a higher cost. That is what has been so dumb about Miliband's actions.
    Not drilling for North Sea oil and gas much surely have reduced global emissions by some amount because it will have reduced the amount of oil and gas on the global market and therefore pushed up their prices, thus making those fuels a little less economic to use.
    Nope. Because there was, and is, still a large surplus of oil and gas available simply by opening taps. The only things that change oil and gas price are demand and the supply from the big producing countries. What we do in the UK as far as drilling is concerned has zero impact on world oil and gas prices - just as it has zero impact on our emissions.

    Meanwhile we import LNG from the USA - losing 5% of it in transit - and paying nearly £1 billion a year in fees, and we import gas via a pipeline from Norway - taken from the same basin that we are forbidden from drilling - and pay over £2 billion in fees to Norway for it (over and above the actual market price of the gas)
    That makes no sense at all. If there is a large surplus of oil and gas available simply by opening taps, as you state, why the hell would it make sense for us to drill for even more of the stuff?
    Because its ours rather than imports. 🤦‍♂️
  • ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Boaty McBoatface is leaving for Greenland to check out whether the Gulf Stream/ Escalator is about to stop.

    Kemi Badenoch; " net zero is rubbish".

    When Burnham opens North Sea oil and gas and takes an axe to climate change subsidy in electric bills then Kemi will have proved her point

    It doesn' t have to be all or nothing, just longer transistion for a country with less than 1% of the worlds emissions
    Huh? Because of fossil fuel emissions the Escalator likely stops. So let's burn more fossil fuels.
    Not drilling for North Sea oil and gas has done nothing to reduce our fossil fuel emissions. We have just bought the oil and gas from elsewhere at a higher cost. That is what has been so dumb about Miliband's actions.
    There are about 900,000 horses in Britain.

    The internet suggests there were about 3.3 million horses in Britain in 1900.

    It's often said that cars replaced horses for transportation (and similarly tractors in agriculture) without horses having to be banned, and that this is a model for how zero carbon energy should replace fossil fuels. And I have a deal of sympathy for that view. And yet, the population of horses has only declined by about three-quarters.

    There may come a time where we want to restrict fossil fuel extraction in order to drive out residual use.
    That's actually extraordinary, that there are so many horses when the economic demand for their services has declined so much. Not that I'm complaining, they are beautiful animals.
    I think the 3.3 million was for agriculture, including Ireland. I'd expect about the same number to be used for transport and leisure.

    So it's a very steep fall, but given the popularity of horse racing, riding, dressage, even keeping them as pets, and factoring in both a 60% rise in population and a considerable increase in wealth, 900,000 is not that surprising as a figure.
    The agriculture horse census gives a figure of ~1.5 million horses for 1900-1910.
    Yes, but I don't think that includes Ireland. I could be wrong.

    I know that 75% of all horses used by the British Army in WW1 came from Ireland, but I'm not exactly sure how the figures played out beyond that.
    The Asquithwave?
    A lot came from Canada and were schooled in England before being sent to the front. Ingmire Hall near Sedbergh then in the West Riding was one such place.
  • FossFoss Posts: 2,909
    Sandpit said:

    Philip Haigh
    @philatrail

    DfT has announced funding of £33.4 million for ticket gates, including taller ones to prevent barrier jumping. Says that railway loses £400m a year from fare dodging. Lists 18 stations as a first phase for installation.

    https://x.com/philatrail/status/2077310306523500631

    ===

    I wouldn't have thought sleepy Market Harborough was a hotspot for barrier jumping but I haven't been there for about fifteen years so maybe it has changed.

    They didn’t have barriers at all at MH, a couple of years ago when I was there. Will possibly report back over the summer, it’s one of the stations close to my parents’ place in Rutland.

    Not exactly a hotspot for fare evasion, I wouldn’t have thought.
    When BART gated San Francisco's stations they found it reduced vandalism.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 24,983
    edited 2:46PM
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Boaty McBoatface is leaving for Greenland to check out whether the Gulf Stream/ Escalator is about to stop.

    Kemi Badenoch; " net zero is rubbish".

    When Burnham opens North Sea oil and gas and takes an axe to climate change subsidy in electric bills then Kemi will have proved her point

    It doesn' t have to be all or nothing, just longer transistion for a country with less than 1% of the worlds emissions
    Huh? Because of fossil fuel emissions the Escalator likely stops. So let's burn more fossil fuels.
    Not drilling for North Sea oil and gas has done nothing to reduce our fossil fuel emissions. We have just bought the oil and gas from elsewhere at a higher cost. That is what has been so dumb about Miliband's actions.
    There are about 900,000 horses in Britain.

    The internet suggests there were about 3.3 million horses in Britain in 1900.

    It's often said that cars replaced horses for transportation (and similarly tractors in agriculture) without horses having to be banned, and that this is a model for how zero carbon energy should replace fossil fuels. And I have a deal of sympathy for that view. And yet, the population of horses has only declined by about three-quarters.

    There may come a time where we want to restrict fossil fuel extraction in order to drive out residual use.
    That's actually extraordinary, that there are so many horses when the economic demand for their services has declined so much. Not that I'm complaining, they are beautiful animals.
    I think the 3.3 million was for agriculture, including Ireland. I'd expect about the same number to be used for transport and leisure.

    So it's a very steep fall, but given the popularity of horse racing, riding, dressage, even keeping them as pets, and factoring in both a 60% rise in population and a considerable increase in wealth, 900,000 is not that surprising as a figure.
    The agriculture horse census gives a figure of ~1.5 million horses for 1900-1910.
    Yes, but I don't think that includes Ireland. I could be wrong.

    I know that 75% of all horses used by the British Army in WW1 came from Ireland, but I'm not exactly sure how the figures played out beyond that.
    The recent (2023) figures I found don't include Ireland. I'm not sure if the earlier census figures did.
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 9,655

    Philip Haigh
    @philatrail

    DfT has announced funding of £33.4 million for ticket gates, including taller ones to prevent barrier jumping. Says that railway loses £400m a year from fare dodging. Lists 18 stations as a first phase for installation.

    https://x.com/philatrail/status/2077310306523500631

    ===

    I wouldn't have thought sleepy Market Harborough was a hotspot for barrier jumping but I haven't been there for about fifteen years so maybe it has changed.

    Keeps the criminal element out, as they found in San Francisco recently:



    Full report, with more such graphs:

    https://www.bart.gov/news/articles/2026/news20260518
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 35,681

    Nigelb said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    HYUFD said:

    I see The Telegraph are saying exactly what John Simpson was criticised for saying.

    Argentina’s hatred of Britain and English football has reared its ugly head

    Bitter recriminations from the Falklands War mean rivalry is about much more than football, especially for the South Americans


    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2026/07/15/argentina-hate-england-more-than-we-hate-them-world-cup/

    Not really, not from that quote in bold at least.

    Everyone knows there is a rivalry and why. Simpson went much further than that, assigning a [false] consequence to effects of who wins the match.
    Having been to Argentina I can say he’s right.

    The Falklands War is the country’s inflexion point.

    Nothing unites them more than their hatred of us.
    Milei is actually relatively pro British and admired Thatcher, he just wants the Falklands to be Argentine too but by diplomatic means
    Diplomatic means until the bent c-nt needs a distraction from domestic woes.

    They might also consider that their window of opportunity to get the fulsome support of Trump for Operacion Rosario 2 might be closing in a couple of years.
    They've only a handful of aircraft, little time to train on them, and limited weapons availability.
    https://www.zona-militar.com/en/2025/06/16/the-armament-of-the-argentine-air-forces-f-16am-bm-fighters-the-greatest-technological-leap-of-the-peace-condor-program/

    The Falklands is also near the limit of the F-16s operational range, I think, without inflight refuelling ?

    It would be a massive gamble at very unfavourable odds.
    We should ally with Argentina to get the oil out. We may as well go halves I think. Give them something to salve their national pride - I don't know what. Build them some islands and call it The Malvinas.
    Cameron proposed exactly that in 2010 but Argentina said they wanted everything and would not negotiate
    That wasn't Millei though.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 40,899

    Philip Haigh
    @philatrail

    DfT has announced funding of £33.4 million for ticket gates, including taller ones to prevent barrier jumping. Says that railway loses £400m a year from fare dodging. Lists 18 stations as a first phase for installation.

    https://x.com/philatrail/status/2077310306523500631

    ===

    I wouldn't have thought sleepy Market Harborough was a hotspot for barrier jumping but I haven't been there for about fifteen years so maybe it has changed.

    Could be wrong but I don't think it had any barriers before, which maybe was the problem.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 129,719

    NEW THREAD

  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 35,681

    Boaty McBoatface is leaving for Greenland to check out whether the Gulf Stream/ Escalator is about to stop.

    Kemi Badenoch; " net zero is rubbish".

    When Burnham opens North Sea oil and gas and takes an axe to climate change subsidy in electric bills then Kemi will have proved her point

    It doesn' t have to be all or nothing, just longer transistion for a country with less than 1% of the worlds emissions
    Huh? Because of fossil fuel emissions the Escalator likely stops. So let's burn more fossil fuels.
    Not drilling for North Sea oil and gas has done nothing to reduce our fossil fuel emissions. We have just bought the oil and gas from elsewhere at a higher cost. That is what has been so dumb about Miliband's actions.
    Not drilling for North Sea oil and gas much surely have reduced global emissions by some amount because it will have reduced the amount of oil and gas on the global market and therefore pushed up their prices, thus making those fuels a little less economic to use.
    Not sure I'd go in to bat with that argument - it's the exact opposite of what your lot have been claiming for the last two years.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 67,100
    Sandpit said:

    Philip Haigh
    @philatrail

    DfT has announced funding of £33.4 million for ticket gates, including taller ones to prevent barrier jumping. Says that railway loses £400m a year from fare dodging. Lists 18 stations as a first phase for installation.

    https://x.com/philatrail/status/2077310306523500631

    ===

    I wouldn't have thought sleepy Market Harborough was a hotspot for barrier jumping but I haven't been there for about fifteen years so maybe it has changed.

    They didn’t have barriers at all at MH, a couple of years ago when I was there. Will possibly report back over the summer, it’s one of the stations close to my parents’ place in Rutland.

    Not exactly a hotspot for fare evasion, I wouldn’t have thought.
    It's probably be used as an excuse for even more passive aggressive behaviour towards everyday commuters.

    Waterloo now has "three lines of defence": ticket collectors, the Gestapo (also known as revenue protection) and private security one after another.

    They pounce like predators, one arm ready on the truncheon, if your ticket fails to work.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 16,840
    edited 2:50PM
    Afternoon all :)

    I don't know the scale of fare evasion on TfL in London. I know the evaders are mostly young men of all colours who just push their way through the barriers.

    Presumably the level of fare evasion is broadly acceptable or more accurately the cost of trying to do something about it would outweigh he benefits of any extra revenue generated.

    On to the big betting event of the day which I'm told is NOT the 6.50 at Lingfield - just 26 runners in the 6 races and RON'S ANGEL in the aforementioned 6.50 backed from 2s to 6/4 with Billy Loughnane probably the reason.

    Paddy have England at 13/8, Argentina at 2s and 9/5 the Draw at 90 minutes. Both teams have dodgy defences - IF I were playing and God help me, I know next to nothing about "the beautiful game" at least in comparison to the "sport of kings", I'd be on 2-2 at 12s.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 37,667

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Boaty McBoatface is leaving for Greenland to check out whether the Gulf Stream/ Escalator is about to stop.

    Kemi Badenoch; " net zero is rubbish".

    When Burnham opens North Sea oil and gas and takes an axe to climate change subsidy in electric bills then Kemi will have proved her point

    It doesn' t have to be all or nothing, just longer transistion for a country with less than 1% of the worlds emissions
    Huh? Because of fossil fuel emissions the Escalator likely stops. So let's burn more fossil fuels.
    Not drilling for North Sea oil and gas has done nothing to reduce our fossil fuel emissions. We have just bought the oil and gas from elsewhere at a higher cost. That is what has been so dumb about Miliband's actions.
    There are about 900,000 horses in Britain.

    The internet suggests there were about 3.3 million horses in Britain in 1900.

    It's often said that cars replaced horses for transportation (and similarly tractors in agriculture) without horses having to be banned, and that this is a model for how zero carbon energy should replace fossil fuels. And I have a deal of sympathy for that view. And yet, the population of horses has only declined by about three-quarters.

    There may come a time where we want to restrict fossil fuel extraction in order to drive out residual use.
    That's actually extraordinary, that there are so many horses when the economic demand for their services has declined so much. Not that I'm complaining, they are beautiful animals.
    I think the 3.3 million was for agriculture, including Ireland. I'd expect about the same number to be used for transport and leisure.

    So it's a very steep fall, but given the popularity of horse racing, riding, dressage, even keeping them as pets, and factoring in both a 60% rise in population and a considerable increase in wealth, 900,000 is not that surprising as a figure.
    The agriculture horse census gives a figure of ~1.5 million horses for 1900-1910.
    Yes, but I don't think that includes Ireland. I could be wrong.

    I know that 75% of all horses used by the British Army in WW1 came from Ireland, but I'm not exactly sure how the figures played out beyond that.
    The Asquithwave?
    A lot came from Canada and were schooled in England before being sent to the front. Ingmire Hall near Sedbergh then in the West Riding was one such place.
    I suspect one of my uncles was involved. He was a farmers son who joined up in 1914 and spent most of the war in Yorkshire before being sent to the Front, and killed, in 1918.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 64,349
    a

    Boaty McBoatface is leaving for Greenland to check out whether the Gulf Stream/ Escalator is about to stop.

    Kemi Badenoch; " net zero is rubbish".

    When Burnham opens North Sea oil and gas and takes an axe to climate change subsidy in electric bills then Kemi will have proved her point

    It doesn' t have to be all or nothing, just longer transistion for a country with less than 1% of the worlds emissions
    Huh? Because of fossil fuel emissions the Escalator likely stops. So let's burn more fossil fuels.
    Not drilling for North Sea oil and gas has done nothing to reduce our fossil fuel emissions. We have just bought the oil and gas from elsewhere at a higher cost. That is what has been so dumb about Miliband's actions.
    There are about 900,000 horses in Britain.

    The internet suggests there were about 3.3 million horses in Britain in 1900.

    It's often said that cars replaced horses for transportation (and similarly tractors in agriculture) without horses having to be banned, and that this is a model for how zero carbon energy should replace fossil fuels. And I have a deal of sympathy for that view. And yet, the population of horses has only declined by about three-quarters.

    There may come a time where we want to restrict fossil fuel extraction in order to drive out residual use.
    That's actually extraordinary, that there are so many horses when the economic demand for their services has declined so much. Not that I'm complaining, they are beautiful animals.
    I was surprised too. I was expecting a decline of around 90%.
    The horses per head of population drop is around 85% from 1900 to 2025
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 37,148
    Foss said:

    Starmer tells MPs 'this is the end of my political journey'

    That sounds like he will definitely be stepping down at the next GE and not interested in taking a role like Foriegn Secretary or Attonery General as some have suggested that he might be a better fit for.

    Or entering the Lords.
    Starmer might be tempted to leave the Commons immediately, like Tony Blair. Trouble is, Nigel Farage may have inadvertently discredited that choice.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 40,899

    God, on topic, people are idiots

    I believe Reform are on the side of the establishment and not ordinary people. The evidence is compelling.
    Do you know why Farage isn't part of the establishment? Because he didn't go to university.
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