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Why there might not be an immediate polling boost for Labour if Burnham becomes PM

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  • FlatlanderFlatlander Posts: 6,007
    Whilst we await the start of Andy Burnham's cautionary tale of 'be careful what you wish for'

    Here's my picture of the day - acorn collecting at the Major Oak:


    We managed to grow a good number of seedlings on from said acorns for conservation planting, one of which may have ended up in my garden.

    Climate change, soil compaction, old age, or fungus? I don't suppose anyone is quite sure yet. It might have been better to coppice it rather than propping up the limbs. It was almost certainly coppiced in the past.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 40,326
    If you live in one of those 3 constituencies, you still have 90 seconds to join the queue to vote.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 72,639
    2 minutes to save the Labour party
  • FlatlanderFlatlander Posts: 6,007

    2 minutes to save the Labour party

    By voting Reform?
  • AramintaMoonbeamQCAramintaMoonbeamQC Posts: 4,133
    Polls have closed, do we have a new Prime Minister?
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 72,639

    Whilst we await the start of Andy Burnham's cautionary tale of 'be careful what you wish for'

    Here's my picture of the day - acorn collecting at the Major Oak:


    We managed to grow a good number of seedlings on from said acorns for conservation planting, one of which may have ended up in my garden.

    Climate change, soil compaction, old age, or fungus? I don't suppose anyone is quite sure yet. It might have been better to coppice it rather than propping up the limbs. It was almost certainly coppiced in the past.

    Hot summers and soil compaction most likely.

    Good luck with the seedlings.
  • solarflaresolarflare Posts: 4,894

    viewcode said:

    DavidL said:

    viewcode said:

    DavidL said:

    ...Its only statistics though...

    Go to your room young man, and don't come back down until you can tell me what you did wrong.
    As Oakes once said, I may be some time. Really not sure what has caused offence here.
    I'm a statistician. Yes, really
    Tell me about your deviations

    Is the standard deviation enough for you or are you more deviated?
    Don't be mean.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 72,639
    Foss said:

    When was the last time we had such an important, pivotal election this close to the summer solstice

    It's going to be light after the poll closes

    The 1987 general election?

    11th of June.
    2024, 4th July?
    That's 13 days from the solstice, 1987 was 10 days away.
    Though the shape of the graph is pretty flat around the solstices- kind of the converse of that horrid bit of mid January when it feels like the days should be noticeably lengthening, but they don't. Bastards.

    (Though this bit- where it fails to get dark- is less good than July and August, when it's nice to be out at 9 pm and it's also dark. That's when we really get one over on nature. Oh, and the Proms are happening.)
    The light nights are not helping with getting my 3 year old to sleep. Roll on December
    I’m not sure swapping light nights for Father Christmas is going to bring all of the relief you seek.
    The sun is now rising slightly later in morning than it was.

  • Brexit didn’t seem to feature in Makerfield at all.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 32,672

    I think Burnham really should just launch his challenge ASAP. I don’t know what he gains by waiting.

    Knowledge of the result?
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 9,364
    edited 9:04PM

    Brexit didn’t seem to feature in Makerfield at all.

    If more people were, like you, capable of understanding that Reform isn't UKIP or the Brexit Party, it'd be easier to counter them.

    I think it's tempting to believe Farage can only mean Brexit, but that isn't how Reform voters see it, I suspect.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 40,326

    Brexit didn’t seem to feature in Makerfield at all.

    Maybe because it was 10 years ago.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 32,672

    Brexit didn’t seem to feature in Makerfield at all.

    Normal folk away from Westminster aren't interested.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 72,639
    The comparison with the current incumbent is heart breaking.


    ===


    https://x.com/atrupar/status/2067675406329667985

  • carnforth said:

    Brexit didn’t seem to feature in Makerfield at all.

    If more people were, like you, capable of understanding that Reform isn't UKIP or the Brexit Party, it'd be easier to counter them.

    I think it's tempting to believe Farage can only mean Brexit, but that isn't how Reform voters see it, I suspect.
    Brexit is something the left and Labour need to get over. To his credit I think it’s the one thing Sir Keir understood quite early on.

    It happened. I hated it. But we’ve left now.

    People are fed up of hearing this argument and find it incredibly hard to think about when they just want things to be a bit cheaper and to see more police stopping shoplifting.

    It’s just like identity politics all over again. You judge people by one thing and you alienate what are your natural supporters. It is in the end self-defeating.

    Farage mainly seems to stay away from Brexit. When he’s decided to bring it up again it’s almost always landed badly. People have frankly moved on. It isn’t an electoral issue unless Labour stupidly decide to make it one - and Wes Streeting dropped in my estimation when he brought up the idiotic rejoin idea.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 40,101

    Polls have closed, do we have a new Prime Minister?

    Rob Kenyon is a future Prime Minister? No, he struck me as a tw@t.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 22,074
    Bong.
  • Burnham has in my view a very good chance of getting a fair hearing. But that’s only going to take him so far. Labour isn’t doomed - but he needs to show people early that the state can actually productively achieve things.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 22,126
    carnforth said:

    Brexit didn’t seem to feature in Makerfield at all.

    If more people were, like you, capable of understanding that Reform isn't UKIP or the Brexit Party, it'd be easier to counter them.

    I think it's tempting to believe Farage can only mean Brexit, but that isn't how Reform voters see it, I suspect.
    Yes, I canvassed quite a few Reform voters in Makersfield - none of them mentioned Brexit. Immigration vied with a general distaste for all established parties.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 22,074

    Burnham has in my view a very good chance of getting a fair hearing. But that’s only going to take him so far. Labour isn’t doomed - but he needs to show people early that the state can actually productively achieve things.

    He hasn’t won Makerfield yet
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 72,639
    edited 9:11PM
    If Burnham loses it will because there were too many activists flooding the zone and knocking on doors constantly.

    If I had been canvassed twelve times in a week I might vote for Binface.


    Jessica Elgot
    @jessicaelgot
    Never seen anything like this as a Labour ground operation. 120 contacts a minute, three campaign centres, 3000 activists.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 40,326

    If Burnham loses it will because there were too many activists flooding the zone and knocking on doors constantly.

    If I had been canvassed twelve times in a week I might vote for Binface.

    On the other hand, Reform and Restore were doing exactly the same thing, so it may have cancelled itself out.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 128,884
    Conservatives cautiously optimistic at Aberdeen South byelection count, while SNP admit it might be 'difficult'.

    Early doors of course


    https://x.com/DMScotPol/status/2067716273782267976
  • solarflaresolarflare Posts: 4,894

    If Burnham loses it will because there were too many activists flooding the zone and knocking on doors constantly.

    If I had been canvassed twelve times in a week I might vote for Binface.


    Jessica Elgot
    @jessicaelgot
    Never seen anything like this as a Labour ground operation. 120 contacts a minute, three campaign centres, 3000 activists.

    It would be funny if it was just the same house being contacted 120 times,
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 23,035

    Whilst we await the start of Andy Burnham's cautionary tale of 'be careful what you wish for'

    Here's my picture of the day - acorn collecting at the Major Oak:


    We managed to grow a good number of seedlings on from said acorns for conservation planting, one of which may have ended up in my garden.

    Climate change, soil compaction, old age, or fungus? I don't suppose anyone is quite sure yet. It might have been better to coppice it rather than propping up the limbs. It was almost certainly coppiced in the past.

    For many trees in many situations, the best thing to do is to start again, as a steadily rolling programme. Everything has a season; a time to plant and a time to pluck up and whatnot.

    A few weeks ago, one of the (possibly 1930s) street trees in our (definitely 1930s) street keeled over; it was the most exciting thing to happen in our road since Clap For Carers. But the gaps in the pattern are becoming increasingly obvious. But it feels very British to unsucessfully try to preserve old things beyond their lifespan and not create things that future generations might enjoy as old things.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 40,101
    ...and follows through.

  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 9,364

    Conservatives cautiously optimistic at Aberdeen South byelection count, while SNP admit it might be 'difficult'.

    Early doors of course


    https://x.com/DMScotPol/status/2067716273782267976



    Eclectic in their tastes, the South Aberdonians.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 29,578

    If Burnham loses it will because there were too many activists flooding the zone and knocking on doors constantly.

    If I had been canvassed twelve times in a week I might vote for Binface.


    Jessica Elgot
    @jessicaelgot
    Never seen anything like this as a Labour ground operation. 120 contacts a minute, three campaign centres, 3000 activists.

    I remember a Labour activist prominent on PB 10+ years ago who was insistent that Labour would win in 2015 because of their 'ground game' and would regularly boast about thousands of activists campaigning in such and such marginal seat.
    .
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 23,393

    ...and follows through.

    So I click the link and I don’t get it.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 128,884
    NEW: Senior Reform source on Makerfield as polls close: “We feel very good, our vote has turned out today. We will get our highest ever by election percentage.”

    https://x.com/ProducerOllie/status/2067717681327788101
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 128,884

    ...and follows through.

    So I click the link and I don’t get it.
    Listen to the sound.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 40,101
    MTG has no health insurance, she is currently in Mexico having stem cell vanity treatments*.

    If only someone had thought of Obamacare.

    *Not covered by Obamacare.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 60,093
    If Reform win and the Tories get Aberdeen South, it will set the stage for the total eclipse of the Labour Party and a battle between Farage and Badenoch for PM.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 29,578
    If Burnham does win how soon does the Greater Manchester mayor byelection take place ?

    And what's the likelihood that Reform learns from picking a series of flawed candidates and actually do the work required to stand a good one.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 72,639
    carnforth said:

    Conservatives cautiously optimistic at Aberdeen South byelection count, while SNP admit it might be 'difficult'.

    Early doors of course


    https://x.com/DMScotPol/status/2067716273782267976



    Eclectic in their tastes, the South Aberdonians.
    To be honest it would be good for the well being of the country if Kem's Tories can prove they are not utterly dead.

    The alternative on the Right is worse.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 60,093

    MTG has no health insurance, she is currently in Mexico having stem cell vanity treatments*.

    If only someone had thought of Obamacare.

    *Not covered by Obamacare.

    Despite the NHS, similarly-minded Brits are forced to travel to Turkey.
  • AramintaMoonbeamQCAramintaMoonbeamQC Posts: 4,133

    NEW: Senior Reform source on Makerfield as polls close: “We feel very good, our vote has turned out today. We will get our highest ever by election percentage.”

    https://x.com/ProducerOllie/status/2067717681327788101

    That's smashing, Nige. So we're thinking Burnham has gone 45%+?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 137,084
    Obama thanks the Bidens, Bushes and Clintons who attended his presidential library opening, Trump clearly wasn’t going to turn up though it was timed to coincide with the G7 to make that less obvious

    https://x.com/barackobama/status/2067698273922510883?s=46&t=Gsn9rlDEZH5vXP97Cgifnw
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 40,101

    ...and follows through.

    So I click the link and I don’t get it.
    I think we can just work on the premise that if someone unfortunately suffers from bowel incontinence wind most likely comes in lumps.

    Now I don't believe bowel incontinence is a laughing matter unless someone who suffers has been hyper critical of someone else's age related health issues.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 23,035
    carnforth said:

    Brexit didn’t seem to feature in Makerfield at all.

    If more people were, like you, capable of understanding that Reform isn't UKIP or the Brexit Party, it'd be easier to counter them.

    I think it's tempting to believe Farage can only mean Brexit, but that isn't how Reform voters see it, I suspect.
    Or possibly, the cause and effect are the other way.

    The Sovereignty argument for Brexit- that it's all about choosing our own path and whatnot- is a real one, but it's relatively niche.

    The mass market argument- that EU membership was making British people's lives worse- was much more relevant. It's probably worse than tosh, in the sense that Brexit seems to have made most people's lives worse than they would otherwise have been- but that doesn't stop it being relevant. And anyone who can bring back the relatively good times on a sustainable basis will win, and deservedly so.

    So Brexit and Reform can both be regarded as a desire for things to be better than they are. So the thing people voted for in 2016 hasn't really happened. Just bear in mind that a lot of the Reform vote is from older homeowners who probably aren't the priority for having a better life right now. And that the good times from 1985 to 2008 were partly sustained by gorging ourselves on seedcorn... which is part of the reason that life isn't so good now.

    And I don't know how to turn that into a winning message. Whoever does will win, and deservedly so.
  • londonpubmanlondonpubman Posts: 3,878
    Restore are big in Great Yarmouth and nowhere else. Yes they may have got 5% in Makerfield but it's quite possible those voters or at least a large proportion of them would not have voted Reform if Restore hadn't stood.
  • Alphabet_SoupAlphabet_Soup Posts: 3,866


    If Burnham loses it will because there were too many activists flooding the zone and knocking on doors constantly.

    If I had been canvassed twelve times in a week I might vote for Binface.


    Jessica Elgot
    @jessicaelgot
    Never seen anything like this as a Labour ground operation. 120 contacts a minute, three campaign centres, 3000 activists.

    I remember a Labour activist prominent on PB 10+ years ago who was insistent that Labour would win in 2015 because of their 'ground game' and would regularly boast about thousands of activists campaigning in such and such marginal seat.
    .
    He posted as OSX. Was never seen again after the 2015 GE.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 128,884

    NEW THREAD

  • Brixian59Brixian59 Posts: 2,385
    edited 9:28PM

    If Burnham does win how soon does the Greater Manchester mayor byelection take place ?

    And what's the likelihood that Reform learns from picking a series of flawed candidates and actually do the work required to stand a good one.

    Is there such a thing as a good Reform candidate.

    So they consider a tory mp defector, put them up as Mayoral candidate, shot to nothing, would only need to relinquish mp seat if they lost.

    What are the odds on 50p Lee?
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 25,582

    I think Burnham really should just launch his challenge ASAP. I don’t know what he gains by waiting.

    He needs to get the phone lines installed first.


    (Yes, I know...)
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 22,074

    If Reform win and the Tories get Aberdeen South, it will set the stage for the total eclipse of the Labour Party and a battle between Farage and Badenoch for PM.

    Badenoch has no chance of becoming PM.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 40,101

    MTG has no health insurance, she is currently in Mexico having stem cell vanity treatments*.

    If only someone had thought of Obamacare.

    *Not covered by Obamacare.

    Despite the NHS, similarly-minded Brits are forced to travel to Turkey.
    I am well aware of Turkiye teeth, but as you know full well that really wasn't the point I was making.

    Anyway don't feel too sorry for Marjorie, it turns out the procedures were paid content sponsored YouTube channel freebies.
  • Brixian59Brixian59 Posts: 2,385

    If Reform win and the Tories get Aberdeen South, it will set the stage for the total eclipse of the Labour Party and a battle between Farage and Badenoch for PM.

    FFS, those mushrooms are strong
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 50,939

    The comparison with the current incumbent is heart breaking.
    ===
    https://x.com/atrupar/status/2067675406329667985

    It is. Politics aside there's such a ludicrous chasm in the 'quality of human being' metric between the two. In 08 they elected a person of humour, integrity, diligence, grace, empathy and intellect to the oval office. In 16 they chose as his successor a cruel, crass, ignorant buffoon. Forget about right v left or conservative v liberal, if that's not spiralling backwards at a rate of knots I don't know wtf is.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 90,042
    Cyclefree said:

    We’re Rejoining!

    It’s inevitable.

    We hold all the cards.


    UK could keep special pre-Brexit terms if it rejoined EU, Michel Barnier says

    Exclusive: Former chief Brexit negotiator says staying out of euro and Schengen area would be ‘perfectly possible’


    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2026/jun/18/uk-could-keep-special-pre-brexit-terms-if-it-rejoined-eu-michel-barnier-says

    That is interesting because while there is no groundswell to rejoin the EU, there does seem to be a consensus that Brexit was a mistake or at best a damp squib. While no-one wants to go through the whole Brexit sturm und drang again, they might respond to an EU offer of a time machine or big red reset button that will magically take us back to where we were, and perhaps that has occurred to Barnier too.
    Does Barnier speak for the EU? I thought he had retired from there.
    Since we have not applied to rejoin, no one speaks for the EU on this.

    It is, though, a straw in the wind. We're regularly assured by our Brexiteers that there's simply no way our previous terms would be available to us.

    If nothing else, it's an indication that the unthinkable actually isn't unthinkable from the point of view of a self described Gaullist.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 33,685
    edited 9:36PM
    A fascinating media detail.

    I've been mentioning for a couple of years that the Telegraph has a difference in quality between the Ukraine the Latest podcast, and the coverage elsewhere in the Telegraph, around assessments of Ukraine.

    Here (deep link, about 30 seconds long) with Dom Nicholls pointing out 'a dishonest (Russian) framing unhelpfully picked by Western media outlets, including in this paper, but not this podcast' (that's a summary):
    https://youtu.be/Scnurany_C8?t=646

    That's the first time I have heard something like that.

    On a separate note the Ukraine the Latest details say that across all outlets they are reaching 140 million listeners every day:

    Description

    The world’s #1 most listened-to podcast on the Russia-Ukraine war.

    Trusted by over 140 million listeners, every weekday The Telegraph’s award-winning team provides breaking news and expert analysis on military strategy, weaponry and the geopolitics of Vladimir Putin vs. Volodymyr Zelensky. And ask: where does Donald Trump fit in?

    From frontline reporting and battlefield analysis to deep dives on military strategy, sanctions, energy markets, and global security, we cover the latest war updates alongside history, economics, culture, and daily life in Ukraine and Russia. Featuring expert insight on weapons systems, cyber warfare, humanitarian issues, and what happens next, it is widely considered the go-to source for understanding the conflict

    https://www.youtube.com/@UkraineTheLatest
  • FlatlanderFlatlander Posts: 6,007
    edited 9:36PM

    Whilst we await the start of Andy Burnham's cautionary tale of 'be careful what you wish for'

    Here's my picture of the day - acorn collecting at the Major Oak:


    We managed to grow a good number of seedlings on from said acorns for conservation planting, one of which may have ended up in my garden.

    Climate change, soil compaction, old age, or fungus? I don't suppose anyone is quite sure yet. It might have been better to coppice it rather than propping up the limbs. It was almost certainly coppiced in the past.

    For many trees in many situations, the best thing to do is to start again, as a steadily rolling programme. Everything has a season; a time to plant and a time to pluck up and whatnot.

    A few weeks ago, one of the (possibly 1930s) street trees in our (definitely 1930s) street keeled over; it was the most exciting thing to happen in our road since Clap For Carers. But the gaps in the pattern are becoming increasingly obvious. But it feels very British to unsucessfully try to preserve old things beyond their lifespan and not create things that future generations might enjoy as old things.
    Yes, I think that's fair. It is a disguised form of short term thinking.

    The Major Oak would have been part of a woodland pasture, with only scattered trees, many of which would have been managed by coppicing. It became encircled by woodland only within the last 100 years or so, and during that time has probably been over-preserved as well as over-visited. The whole context in which the vast majority of its life was lived has gone, so we were preserving something that was already lost, much like keeping a building beyond its purpose.

    If you want to see what it should have looked like, Windsor Great Park is probably your best bet.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 40,101
    Brixian59 said:

    If Reform win and the Tories get Aberdeen South, it will set the stage for the total eclipse of the Labour Party and a battle between Farage and Badenoch for PM.

    FFS, those mushrooms are strong
    William has been punting this narrative that Tories are teed up to be the official Opposition to Reform for a while now.

    Maybe tonight proves his point. If Team Burnham are less confident of Makerfield and the SNP are concerned for Aberdeen he might be on to a winner. On the other hand even if Reform and the Tories prevail, maybe not. Labour at least keep the Manchester Mayoralty.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 22,074

    Brixian59 said:

    If Reform win and the Tories get Aberdeen South, it will set the stage for the total eclipse of the Labour Party and a battle between Farage and Badenoch for PM.

    FFS, those mushrooms are strong
    William has been punting this narrative that Tories are teed up to be the official Opposition to Reform for a while now.

    Maybe tonight proves his point. If Team Burnham are less confident of Makerfield and the SNP are concerned for Aberdeen he might be on to a winner. On the other hand even if Reform and the Tories prevail, maybe not. Labour at least keep the Manchester Mayoralty.
    Even if the Tories win in Aberdeen they are nowhere in England and them and Reform are fighting for the same 40-50%.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 34,599

    Whilst we await the start of Andy Burnham's cautionary tale of 'be careful what you wish for'

    Here's my picture of the day - acorn collecting at the Major Oak:


    We managed to grow a good number of seedlings on from said acorns for conservation planting, one of which may have ended up in my garden.

    Climate change, soil compaction, old age, or fungus? I don't suppose anyone is quite sure yet. It might have been better to coppice it rather than propping up the limbs. It was almost certainly coppiced in the past.

    Hot summers and soil compaction most likely.

    Good luck with the seedlings.
    Not compaction. That was identified as an issue about 30 years ago and they put the low fence up to stop people crowding around the tree. Apart from special projects like the acorn collecting.

    The hot summer last year has done for a lot of trees but in almost all cases they were getting to the end of their lives anyway

    There were two huge silver birch in my Mums garden that my Dad planted when they built the house 56 years ago. We just took them down after they died last summer. But silver birch generally only live 50 to 69 years anyway.

    The old myth about oaks was that they were 400 years in the growing, 400 years in the living and 400 yearsvin the dying. That might be about right for the Major Oak although in a lot of recent studies they found it might be nearer to 600 years for each stage. It is difficult to tell because many of the older oaks hollow out which prevents counting tree rings.

    But the area around Sherwood at Edwinstow has a lot of datable archaeological features under and over the trees so it is possible to get reasonable dates on a lot of them

    In the end the Major Oak looks like it just reached its biblical three score and ten and died of natural causes.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 34,599

    Whilst we await the start of Andy Burnham's cautionary tale of 'be careful what you wish for'

    Here's my picture of the day - acorn collecting at the Major Oak:


    We managed to grow a good number of seedlings on from said acorns for conservation planting, one of which may have ended up in my garden.

    Climate change, soil compaction, old age, or fungus? I don't suppose anyone is quite sure yet. It might have been better to coppice it rather than propping up the limbs. It was almost certainly coppiced in the past.

    For many trees in many situations, the best thing to do is to start again, as a steadily rolling programme. Everything has a season; a time to plant and a time to pluck up and whatnot.

    A few weeks ago, one of the (possibly 1930s) street trees in our (definitely 1930s) street keeled over; it was the most exciting thing to happen in our road since Clap For Carers. But the gaps in the pattern are becoming increasingly obvious. But it feels very British to unsucessfully try to preserve old things beyond their lifespan and not create things that future generations might enjoy as old things.
    Yes, I think that's fair. It is a disguised form of short term thinking.

    The Major Oak would have been part of a woodland pasture, with only scattered trees, many of which would have been managed by coppicing. It became encircled by woodland only within the last 100 years or so, and during that time has probably been over-preserved as well as over-visited. The whole context in which the vast majority of its life was lived has gone, so we were preserving something that was already lost, much like keeping a building beyond its purpose.

    If you want to see what it should have looked like, Windsor Great Park is probably your best bet.
    Not according to the archaeology.
  • FlatlanderFlatlander Posts: 6,007
    edited 9:58PM

    Whilst we await the start of Andy Burnham's cautionary tale of 'be careful what you wish for'

    Here's my picture of the day - acorn collecting at the Major Oak:


    We managed to grow a good number of seedlings on from said acorns for conservation planting, one of which may have ended up in my garden.

    Climate change, soil compaction, old age, or fungus? I don't suppose anyone is quite sure yet. It might have been better to coppice it rather than propping up the limbs. It was almost certainly coppiced in the past.

    For many trees in many situations, the best thing to do is to start again, as a steadily rolling programme. Everything has a season; a time to plant and a time to pluck up and whatnot.

    A few weeks ago, one of the (possibly 1930s) street trees in our (definitely 1930s) street keeled over; it was the most exciting thing to happen in our road since Clap For Carers. But the gaps in the pattern are becoming increasingly obvious. But it feels very British to unsucessfully try to preserve old things beyond their lifespan and not create things that future generations might enjoy as old things.
    Yes, I think that's fair. It is a disguised form of short term thinking.

    The Major Oak would have been part of a woodland pasture, with only scattered trees, many of which would have been managed by coppicing. It became encircled by woodland only within the last 100 years or so, and during that time has probably been over-preserved as well as over-visited. The whole context in which the vast majority of its life was lived has gone, so we were preserving something that was already lost, much like keeping a building beyond its purpose.

    If you want to see what it should have looked like, Windsor Great Park is probably your best bet.
    Not according to the archaeology.
    That's what I've always been told, but it could be wrong...

    Early photographs of the tree show it in a parkland setting. Is there evidence that it the tree predates the creation of the pasture?

    [There are of course other ancient oaks in the area, scattered across the NNR]
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