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Bombing Iran bombs with UK voters meanwhile in America… – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,535
edited 6:26AM in General
Bombing Iran bombs with UK voters meanwhile in America… – politicalbetting.com

From what you have seen and heard, do you think it was right or wrong for the US to bomb Iranian nuclear facilities?Right: 22%Wrong: 48%Don't know: 30%yougov.co.uk/topics/inter…

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Comments

  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 31,279
    Don't know scores 30 per cent across parties.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 78,590
    What many Americans, and most citizens of democracies, fail to understand is how autocracies communicate. It has little to do with the real world. Trump's only audience are his followers. The only audience for Trump's sycophants and officials is Trump. Reality is irrelevant.
    https://x.com/Kasparov63/status/1937297601453277670
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 78,590
    Nigelb said:

    What many Americans, and most citizens of democracies, fail to understand is how autocracies communicate. It has little to do with the real world. Trump's only audience are his followers. The only audience for Trump's sycophants and officials is Trump. Reality is irrelevant.
    https://x.com/Kasparov63/status/1937297601453277670

    Note the final poll in the header, which bears this out.

    MAGA (and apparently a fair slice if Reform voters) take this sort of whiplash in stride.

    Trump went from suggesting "regime change" in Iran to congratulating that same regime and saying "Good bless Iran" in one day.
    https://x.com/atrupar/status/1937277701204664404
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 20,575
    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    What many Americans, and most citizens of democracies, fail to understand is how autocracies communicate. It has little to do with the real world. Trump's only audience are his followers. The only audience for Trump's sycophants and officials is Trump. Reality is irrelevant.
    https://x.com/Kasparov63/status/1937297601453277670

    Note the final poll in the header, which bears this out.

    MAGA (and apparently a fair slice if Reform voters) take this sort of whiplash in stride.

    Trump went from suggesting "regime change" in Iran to congratulating that same regime and saying "Good bless Iran" in one day.
    https://x.com/atrupar/status/1937277701204664404
    Trump is obviously suffering a loss in mental facilities. He’s all over the place.
  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 9,202
    "Israel thanks President Trump and the United States for their support in defense and their participation in eliminating the Iranian nuclear threat.

    In light of achieving the objectives of the operation, and in full coordination with President Trump, Israel has agreed to the president’s proposal for a bilateral cease-fire."
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 30,499
    "Hopefully this ceasefire holds" - they're still bombing each other!
  • TazTaz Posts: 19,250
    Barnesian said:

    "Israel thanks President Trump and the United States for their support in defense and their participation in eliminating the Iranian nuclear threat.

    In light of achieving the objectives of the operation, and in full coordination with President Trump, Israel has agreed to the president’s proposal for a bilateral cease-fire."

    Interesting they use the word ‘eliminating’ with regards to Iran’s nuclear threat.

  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 55,208
    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    What many Americans, and most citizens of democracies, fail to understand is how autocracies communicate. It has little to do with the real world. Trump's only audience are his followers. The only audience for Trump's sycophants and officials is Trump. Reality is irrelevant.
    https://x.com/Kasparov63/status/1937297601453277670

    Note the final poll in the header, which bears this out.

    MAGA (and apparently a fair slice if Reform voters) take this sort of whiplash in stride.

    Trump went from suggesting "regime change" in Iran to congratulating that same regime and saying "Good bless Iran" in one day.
    https://x.com/atrupar/status/1937277701204664404
    I wonder which God Trump thought was blessing Iran?
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 55,633

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    What many Americans, and most citizens of democracies, fail to understand is how autocracies communicate. It has little to do with the real world. Trump's only audience are his followers. The only audience for Trump's sycophants and officials is Trump. Reality is irrelevant.
    https://x.com/Kasparov63/status/1937297601453277670

    Note the final poll in the header, which bears this out.

    MAGA (and apparently a fair slice if Reform voters) take this sort of whiplash in stride.

    Trump went from suggesting "regime change" in Iran to congratulating that same regime and saying "Good bless Iran" in one day.
    https://x.com/atrupar/status/1937277701204664404
    I wonder which God Trump thought was blessing Iran?
    Someone called Trump I believe.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 55,208

    "Hopefully this ceasefire holds" - they're still bombing each other!

    They are like a pair of lovers...


    "You put the phone down first."

    "No, you put the phone down first..."

  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 55,208
    DavidL said:

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    What many Americans, and most citizens of democracies, fail to understand is how autocracies communicate. It has little to do with the real world. Trump's only audience are his followers. The only audience for Trump's sycophants and officials is Trump. Reality is irrelevant.
    https://x.com/Kasparov63/status/1937297601453277670

    Note the final poll in the header, which bears this out.

    MAGA (and apparently a fair slice if Reform voters) take this sort of whiplash in stride.

    Trump went from suggesting "regime change" in Iran to congratulating that same regime and saying "Good bless Iran" in one day.
    https://x.com/atrupar/status/1937277701204664404
    I wonder which God Trump thought was blessing Iran?
    Someone called Trump I believe.
    Sorry, I don't believe in Trump.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 39,053
    @Papapishu

    Rewatched Terminator 2 last night. Fun movie about AI leading to nuclear war and how the easiest way to kill someone is to dress up like a cop. Can't say its themes resonate today.

    https://x.com/Papapishu/status/1936906193735217376
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 55,633

    DavidL said:

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    What many Americans, and most citizens of democracies, fail to understand is how autocracies communicate. It has little to do with the real world. Trump's only audience are his followers. The only audience for Trump's sycophants and officials is Trump. Reality is irrelevant.
    https://x.com/Kasparov63/status/1937297601453277670

    Note the final poll in the header, which bears this out.

    MAGA (and apparently a fair slice if Reform voters) take this sort of whiplash in stride.

    Trump went from suggesting "regime change" in Iran to congratulating that same regime and saying "Good bless Iran" in one day.
    https://x.com/atrupar/status/1937277701204664404
    I wonder which God Trump thought was blessing Iran?
    Someone called Trump I believe.
    Sorry, I don't believe in Trump.
    He definitely exists. As Pratchett puts it in Small Gods: "“His philosophy was a mixture of three famous schools -- the Cynics, the Stoics and the Epicureans -- and summed up all three of them in his famous phrase, 'You can't trust any bugger further than you can throw him, and there's nothing you can do about it, so let's have a drink.”
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 55,208
    FPT Yes, a couple of species of bat carry rabies We have known this for years. Ever since a bat worker died of it:

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2002/nov/25/kirstyscott

    Stand Leon down...
  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 9,202
    Taz said:

    Barnesian said:

    "Israel thanks President Trump and the United States for their support in defense and their participation in eliminating the Iranian nuclear threat.

    In light of achieving the objectives of the operation, and in full coordination with President Trump, Israel has agreed to the president’s proposal for a bilateral cease-fire."

    Interesting they use the word ‘eliminating’ with regards to Iran’s nuclear threat.

    There is a lot of face saving language on all sides.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 44,090

    FPT Yes, a couple of species of bat carry rabies We have known this for years. Ever since a bat worker died of it:

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2002/nov/25/kirstyscott

    Stand Leon down...

    You think that’s not enough to trigger a virulent case of Leonus Hystericus?
  • TazTaz Posts: 19,250

    "Hopefully this ceasefire holds" - they're still bombing each other!

    They are like a pair of lovers...


    "You put the phone down first."

    "No, you put the phone down first..."

    When Trump announced it he confirmed the time it was due to start. They were bombing until them, right up to the deadline.

    Still, it’s Trump so people lose their rationality.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 55,208
    Scott_xP said:

    @Papapishu

    Rewatched Terminator 2 last night. Fun movie about AI leading to nuclear war and how the easiest way to kill someone is to dress up like a cop. Can't say its themes resonate today.

    https://x.com/Papapishu/status/1936906193735217376

    We've rather lost track of him lately, but the writer of Terminator 2, Bill Wisher, used to come over from LA and stay with us when we were up in Oxfordshire. Interesting guy.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 55,208

    FPT Yes, a couple of species of bat carry rabies We have known this for years. Ever since a bat worker died of it:

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2002/nov/25/kirstyscott

    Stand Leon down...

    You think that’s not enough to trigger a virulent case of Leonus Hystericus?
    That would be when the Midge spread rabies...
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 44,090
    Taz said:

    "Hopefully this ceasefire holds" - they're still bombing each other!

    They are like a pair of lovers...


    "You put the phone down first."

    "No, you put the phone down first..."

    When Trump announced it he confirmed the time it was due to start. They were bombing until them, right up to the deadline.

    Still, it’s Trump so people lose their rationality.
    Disgraceful that tremendously rational Trump should inspire such behaviour.
  • RattersRatters Posts: 1,377
    From a purely domestic politics perspective, the fact that oil is back below $70 per barrel is probably more important than people's view on Starmer's actions in relation to a war that the UK took no part and lasted less than 2 weeks.

    Russia's war in Ukraine is more directly impactful to us. And the outcome of the war is one of Russia's main allies is further weakened (having already lost Assad) without any corresponding boost to oil revenue.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 11,881
    Morning all.
    With WW3 postponed, its back to domestic policy for me as i was a bit wrong on the ME extent of war!
    108 signatories on the reasoned amendment to PIP /UC, enough to defeat the govt if opposition back. Will labour pull the bill? If so Kendall surely must resign and how will the markets react if so?
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 55,208
    Ratters said:

    From a purely domestic politics perspective, the fact that oil is back below $70 per barrel is probably more important than people's view on Starmer's actions in relation to a war that the UK took no part and lasted less than 2 weeks.

    Russia's war in Ukraine is more directly impactful to us. And the outcome of the war is one of Russia's main allies is further weakened (having already lost Assad) without any corresponding boost to oil revenue.

    Price of oil down $3 so far today.

    Putin phoning Tehran "You sure you wouldn't like to lob some more drones into Tel Aviv? You can use some of those set for delivery in the next batch, on me..."
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 11,077
    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    What many Americans, and most citizens of democracies, fail to understand is how autocracies communicate. It has little to do with the real world. Trump's only audience are his followers. The only audience for Trump's sycophants and officials is Trump. Reality is irrelevant.
    https://x.com/Kasparov63/status/1937297601453277670

    Note the final poll in the header, which bears this out.

    MAGA (and apparently a fair slice if Reform voters) take this sort of whiplash in stride.

    Trump went from suggesting "regime change" in Iran to congratulating that same regime and saying "Good bless Iran" in one day.
    https://x.com/atrupar/status/1937277701204664404
    It's a cult. At least Reform voters aren't quite like that (yet).
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 11,881
    Given the mixed messages out of Iran overnight re cessefire, its not entirely impossible a coup is occuring or that Khomeini is dead
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 32,535
    edited 7:24AM

    Given the mixed messages out of Iran overnight re cessefire, its not entirely impossible a coup is occuring or that Khomeini is dead

    So Khomeini didn't die of old age in 1989?
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 55,633

    Given the mixed messages out of Iran overnight re cessefire, its not entirely impossible a coup is occuring or that Khomeini is dead

    Khomeini is definitely dead and has been for a very long time. Khamenei, I am not so sure about.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 11,881
    Yougov this week
    Ref 27 (=)
    Lab 23 (-1)
    Con 17 (=)
    LD 16 (+1)
    Green 10 (=)
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 31,279

    Morning all.
    With WW3 postponed, its back to domestic policy for me as i was a bit wrong on the ME extent of war!
    108 signatories on the reasoned amendment to PIP /UC, enough to defeat the govt if opposition back. Will labour pull the bill? If so Kendall surely must resign and how will the markets react if so?

    Why must Kendall surely resign? Bills have been lost or abandoned in the past without triggering resignations or reshuffles.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 78,590
    Very interesting thread.
    China's rare earth materials dominance isn't just about mining - they're actually a net importer, despite mining more than the rest of the world - it's about materials science and processing technology, which is going to be harder to challenge.

    Imagine 1 country dominating the full Semi supply chain including Silicon, wafer, all chemicals, all equipments, fabs, design studio & advanced pkg.
    China has that in Rare Earth & ppl are finding out now it is used in everything.
    Thread on just how much China controls RE supply chain.

    https://x.com/tphuang/status/1931168258322833598
  • TazTaz Posts: 19,250

    Taz said:

    "Hopefully this ceasefire holds" - they're still bombing each other!

    They are like a pair of lovers...


    "You put the phone down first."

    "No, you put the phone down first..."

    When Trump announced it he confirmed the time it was due to start. They were bombing until them, right up to the deadline.

    Still, it’s Trump so people lose their rationality.
    Disgraceful that tremendously rational Trump should inspire such behaviour.
    Yebbut Trump innit.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 11,881
    edited 7:28AM

    Morning all.
    With WW3 postponed, its back to domestic policy for me as i was a bit wrong on the ME extent of war!
    108 signatories on the reasoned amendment to PIP /UC, enough to defeat the govt if opposition back. Will labour pull the bill? If so Kendall surely must resign and how will the markets react if so?

    Why must Kendall surely resign? Bills have been lost or abandoned in the past without triggering resignations or reshuffles.
    The entire strategy of her department being ripped up because her own party reject it? Shed have no credibility to start over and come back with a new one. Plus, shes very clearly spent her career arguing for this including her run for leader
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,660
    Nigelb said:

    Very interesting thread.
    China's rare earth materials dominance isn't just about mining - they're actually a net importer, despite mining more than the rest of the world - it's about materials science and processing technology, which is going to be harder to challenge.

    Imagine 1 country dominating the full Semi supply chain including Silicon, wafer, all chemicals, all equipments, fabs, design studio & advanced pkg.
    China has that in Rare Earth & ppl are finding out now it is used in everything.
    Thread on just how much China controls RE supply chain.

    https://x.com/tphuang/status/1931168258322833598

    Their dominance in processing was part of a recent(ish) video by Good Times Bad Times, which was pretty interesting.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 44,090
    Functionary of Likud on R4 suggesting that now is the time to end the SMO in Gaza, demilitarise, get in Arab administration and initiate democratic elections (no word on the apocalyptic hellscape that Gaza has become). This sounds most unBibiesque and therefore bloody unlikely.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 11,881

    Given the mixed messages out of Iran overnight re cessefire, its not entirely impossible a coup is occuring or that Khomeini is dead

    So Khomeini didn't die of old age in 1989?
    DavidL said:

    Given the mixed messages out of Iran overnight re cessefire, its not entirely impossible a coup is occuring or that Khomeini is dead

    Khomeini is definitely dead and has been for a very long time. Khamenei, I am not so sure about.
    Excuse the spelling!
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 44,002

    Functionary of Likud on R4 suggesting that now is the time to end the SMO in Gaza, demilitarise, get in Arab administration and initiate democratic elections (no word on the apocalyptic hellscape that Gaza has become). This sounds most unBibiesque and therefore bloody unlikely.

    Yep democratic elections in Gaza are unlikely because Israel.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 11,881
    Federal judge in DC has ordered Trump to facilitate restarting the war in the middle east
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 39,053
    ...
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 32,535
    TOPPING said:

    Functionary of Likud on R4 suggesting that now is the time to end the SMO in Gaza, demilitarise, get in Arab administration and initiate democratic elections (no word on the apocalyptic hellscape that Gaza has become). This sounds most unBibiesque and therefore bloody unlikely.

    Yep democratic elections in Gaza are unlikely because Israel.
    Yes, you are quite probably correct.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 78,590
    Who to believe ?
    It's not as though either are particularly reliable sources, and it sounds like motivated reasoning on both sides.

    Competing claims now about the status of Iran’s HEU. Senator Markwayne Mullin, on the Armed Services Committee, says U.S. intel determined Iran hadn’t moved it from Fordow before the American strike; two Israeli officials told NYT they likely did.
    https://x.com/michaeldweiss/status/1937398505611636908
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 9,405

    Scott_xP said:

    @Papapishu

    Rewatched Terminator 2 last night. Fun movie about AI leading to nuclear war and how the easiest way to kill someone is to dress up like a cop. Can't say its themes resonate today.

    https://x.com/Papapishu/status/1936906193735217376

    We've rather lost track of him lately, but the writer of Terminator 2, Bill Wisher, used to come over from LA and stay with us when we were up in Oxfordshire. Interesting guy.
    I hope, every time he left, he turned to you and said, "I'll be back"? :lol:
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 11,881
    Nigelb said:

    Who to believe ?
    It's not as though either are particularly reliable sources, and it sounds like motivated reasoning on both sides.

    Competing claims now about the status of Iran’s HEU. Senator Markwayne Mullin, on the Armed Services Committee, says U.S. intel determined Iran hadn’t moved it from Fordow before the American strike; two Israeli officials told NYT they likely did.
    https://x.com/michaeldweiss/status/1937398505611636908

    Israel want an excuse to go back in later 'if required' (i.e. Bibi in trouble)
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 31,279

    Morning all.
    With WW3 postponed, its back to domestic policy for me as i was a bit wrong on the ME extent of war!
    108 signatories on the reasoned amendment to PIP /UC, enough to defeat the govt if opposition back. Will labour pull the bill? If so Kendall surely must resign and how will the markets react if so?

    Why must Kendall surely resign? Bills have been lost or abandoned in the past without triggering resignations or reshuffles.
    The entire strategy of her department being ripped up because her own party reject it? Shed have no credibility to start over and come back with a new one. Plus, shes very clearly spent her career arguing for this including her run for leader
    William Hill offers 12/1 against Liz Kendall being the next cabinet minister to leave. Heidi Alexander is 9/2 favourite.
  • AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 3,673
    I'd be a DK, DK, and stay out of it.

    Not to say the rationale for action isn't there, but we're a small country with few resources, little influence and huge debt. Countries like that need to sing small and it doesn't necessarily rule out an 'honest broker' role at some point.

    Good morning, everybody.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 14,698
    The YouGov polling is odd to say the least, and cries out for qualitative data from the 44% who feel Starmer and Labour have done badly.

    What is it they have done badly, and what should they have done instead?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 78,590

    Nigelb said:

    Who to believe ?
    It's not as though either are particularly reliable sources, and it sounds like motivated reasoning on both sides.

    Competing claims now about the status of Iran’s HEU. Senator Markwayne Mullin, on the Armed Services Committee, says U.S. intel determined Iran hadn’t moved it from Fordow before the American strike; two Israeli officials told NYT they likely did.
    https://x.com/michaeldweiss/status/1937398505611636908

    Israel want an excuse to go back in later 'if required' (i.e. Bibi in trouble)
    And MAGA want to claim complete success.

    As I said, who to believe ?
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 11,881

    Morning all.
    With WW3 postponed, its back to domestic policy for me as i was a bit wrong on the ME extent of war!
    108 signatories on the reasoned amendment to PIP /UC, enough to defeat the govt if opposition back. Will labour pull the bill? If so Kendall surely must resign and how will the markets react if so?

    Why must Kendall surely resign? Bills have been lost or abandoned in the past without triggering resignations or reshuffles.
    The entire strategy of her department being ripped up because her own party reject it? Shed have no credibility to start over and come back with a new one. Plus, shes very clearly spent her career arguing for this including her run for leader
    William Hill offers 12/1 against Liz Kendall being the next cabinet minister to leave. Heidi Alexander is 9/2 favourite.
    Those odds will shift if and when the bill is pulled
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 11,881
    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Who to believe ?
    It's not as though either are particularly reliable sources, and it sounds like motivated reasoning on both sides.

    Competing claims now about the status of Iran’s HEU. Senator Markwayne Mullin, on the Armed Services Committee, says U.S. intel determined Iran hadn’t moved it from Fordow before the American strike; two Israeli officials told NYT they likely did.
    https://x.com/michaeldweiss/status/1937398505611636908

    Israel want an excuse to go back in later 'if required' (i.e. Bibi in trouble)
    And MAGA want to claim complete success.

    As I said, who to believe ?
    On this one more likely MAGA as israel likely wouldnt be stopping otherwise. But its not something id put my shirt on
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 60,382
    Nigelb said:

    Who to believe ?
    It's not as though either are particularly reliable sources, and it sounds like motivated reasoning on both sides.

    Competing claims now about the status of Iran’s HEU. Senator Markwayne Mullin, on the Armed Services Committee, says U.S. intel determined Iran hadn’t moved it from Fordow before the American strike; two Israeli officials told NYT they likely did.
    https://x.com/michaeldweiss/status/1937398505611636908

    That suggests to me that no one is really sure.

    Also: it's the tendency of politicians to take an optimistic spin, and security officials to take a pessimistic one.
  • novanova Posts: 852
    algarkirk said:

    The YouGov polling is odd to say the least, and cries out for qualitative data from the 44% who feel Starmer and Labour have done badly.

    What is it they have done badly, and what should they have done instead?

    I suspect there isn't much more to it. You could ask any question about any topic, and I bet at least that many would say Labour handled it badly.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 60,382

    Given the mixed messages out of Iran overnight re cessefire, its not entirely impossible a coup is occuring or that Khomeini is dead

    My guess is that any coup would be precipitated by protests on the streets of Tehran and other major cities. I just don't see the alternative power center in Iran for an insider coup.
  • vikvik Posts: 544
    Nigelb said:

    Who to believe ?
    It's not as though either are particularly reliable sources, and it sounds like motivated reasoning on both sides.

    Competing claims now about the status of Iran’s HEU. Senator Markwayne Mullin, on the Armed Services Committee, says U.S. intel determined Iran hadn’t moved it from Fordow before the American strike; two Israeli officials told NYT they likely did.
    https://x.com/michaeldweiss/status/1937398505611636908

    This is the same Markwayne Mullin who wanted to engage in a fistfight with the Teamsters president in the middle of a Senate hearing:

    https://x.com/MorningBrew/status/1724511530958360666
  • StereodogStereodog Posts: 1,036
    Selebian said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @Papapishu

    Rewatched Terminator 2 last night. Fun movie about AI leading to nuclear war and how the easiest way to kill someone is to dress up like a cop. Can't say its themes resonate today.

    https://x.com/Papapishu/status/1936906193735217376

    We've rather lost track of him lately, but the writer of Terminator 2, Bill Wisher, used to come over from LA and stay with us when we were up in Oxfordshire. Interesting guy.
    I hope, every time he left, he turned to you and said, "I'll be back"? :lol:
    Or if he was driving him to the airport "Come with me if you want to leave"
  • stodgestodge Posts: 14,738
    Morning all :)

    On a complete tangent, this story caught my eye:

    https://www.getsurrey.co.uk/news/surrey-news/surrey-council-agrees-buy-oil-31917278

    Now, what caught my eye wasn't the story itself but the way it was reported. The "council" aren't spending any money on the painting - £2,500 (or half) is coming from a fund held by Chertsey Museum (run by Runnymede BC) towards the painting.

    Superficially, anyone seeing this might think "this council is spending thousands of pounds of public money on some painting, what a waste". Er, no, it's £2,500 from a fund used by the museum to improve its collection.

    Now, you could argue there are better works on which the museum could have spent £2,500 - I don't know - but the clickbait nature of the headline promises far more than it delivers.

    My other thought is it seems a waste of Councillor time to approve this - the Museum should have the delegated authority to spend its own money.

    As a further aside, when the various DLOGEs (or whatever) instigated by Reform sweep through councils like Kent and Derbyshire, they are going to find this kind of heritage in museums, council headquarters buildings and record offices. There will be those who will doubtless argue this kind of heritage has no place in a modern cash-strapped council (it'll be a test of whether Reform's apparent love of British history and nostalgia stands up to reality). The problem is much of the art in council buildings has been donated or bequeathed to the authorities so can it really be sold off? Should it?

    You could argue if land and buildings can be sold off to provide capital receipt to maintain services why not sell off the family silver (especially if it's the good stuff)?
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 11,881
    rcs1000 said:

    Given the mixed messages out of Iran overnight re cessefire, its not entirely impossible a coup is occuring or that Khomeini is dead

    My guess is that any coup would be precipitated by protests on the streets of Tehran and other major cities. I just don't see the alternative power center in Iran for an insider coup.
    Fair point.
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 24,948
    Hard to get a word in edgeways with all the people who object to 'populism' clamouring to insist we disregard this polling as populism is a bad thing.

    Impressive tumbleweed display though, that's another irregular verb, isn't it?
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 44,090
    Appears the 12 day war has been followed by the 3 hour ceasefire.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 78,590
    About that ceasefire.

    Israeli Defense Minister Israel Katz: "I have instructed the IDF to continue intensive operations targeting regime assets and terrorist infrastructure in Tehran"
    https://x.com/AmichaiStein1/status/1937419217684562223
  • TimSTimS Posts: 15,627

    Yougov this week
    Ref 27 (=)
    Lab 23 (-1)
    Con 17 (=)
    LD 16 (+1)
    Green 10 (=)

    Lib-Con crossover still tantalisingly close.

    Yougov recently has been reasonably good for Labour. Yes I know 23% is not reasonably good for an incumbent governing party by any stretch, but it’s all relative. They have 10% Greens of which they can likely squeeze a good 3% in a GE, or as much as 6% if it turns out to be a battle royal with Reform.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 32,535
    edited 8:02AM
    rcs1000 said:

    Given the mixed messages out of Iran overnight re cessefire, its not entirely impossible a coup is occuring or that Khomeini is dead

    My guess is that any coup would be precipitated by protests on the streets of Tehran and other major cities. I just don't see the alternative power center in Iran for an insider coup.
    Jack Straw was on with Marr on LBC last night and a putsch (as an option) was hinted at.
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 24,948

    Morning all.
    With WW3 postponed, its back to domestic policy for me as i was a bit wrong on the ME extent of war!
    108 signatories on the reasoned amendment to PIP /UC, enough to defeat the govt if opposition back. Will labour pull the bill? If so Kendall surely must resign and how will the markets react if so?

    Why must Kendall surely resign? Bills have been lost or abandoned in the past without triggering resignations or reshuffles.
    The entire strategy of her department being ripped up because her own party reject it? Shed have no credibility to start over and come back with a new one. Plus, shes very clearly spent her career arguing for this including her run for leader
    Shame on Kemi if she backs the opposition on this though, the Tories should humiliate Labour by getting Kendall's reforms through only with Tory votes.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 44,090

    Hard to get a word in edgeways with all the people who object to 'populism' clamouring to insist we disregard this polling as populism is a bad thing.

    Impressive tumbleweed display though, that's another irregular verb, isn't it?

    If there’s one person on PB who invariably elbows their way to the head of the queue to get their word in edgeways..
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 66,443
    The challenge for Reform over the next three years is to think less about winning an election and more about the challenges of government. It doesn’t need lots of clever gimmicks. The Starmer administration is so hopelessly inept that it will inevitably lose the next election.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2025/06/23/nigel-farages-robin-hood-tax-is-nothing-more-than-a-gimmick
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 79,672
    Nigelb said:

    About that ceasefire.

    Israeli Defense Minister Israel Katz: "I have instructed the IDF to continue intensive operations targeting regime assets and terrorist infrastructure in Tehran"
    https://x.com/AmichaiStein1/status/1937419217684562223

    Knew old Barty would give that a "like".
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 11,881

    Morning all.
    With WW3 postponed, its back to domestic policy for me as i was a bit wrong on the ME extent of war!
    108 signatories on the reasoned amendment to PIP /UC, enough to defeat the govt if opposition back. Will labour pull the bill? If so Kendall surely must resign and how will the markets react if so?

    Why must Kendall surely resign? Bills have been lost or abandoned in the past without triggering resignations or reshuffles.
    The entire strategy of her department being ripped up because her own party reject it? Shed have no credibility to start over and come back with a new one. Plus, shes very clearly spent her career arguing for this including her run for leader
    Shame on Kemi if she backs the opposition on this though, the Tories should humiliate Labour by getting Kendall's reforms through only with Tory votes.
    I disagree, for personal reasons
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 10,287
    Morning PB.

    Is this delay in the ceasefire due to communications problems in the Iranian infrastructure, or do the Iranians not want it ?

    Thank you for your attention in this matter.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 66,443
    Nigelb said:

    About that ceasefire.

    Israeli Defense Minister Israel Katz: "I have instructed the IDF to continue intensive operations targeting regime assets and terrorist infrastructure in Tehran"
    https://x.com/AmichaiStein1/status/1937419217684562223

    IDF version of a ceasefire.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 11,881
    Iran withdrawing from any cooperation with IAEA. Lol, ceasefires hey?
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 11,881
    edited 8:12AM
    TimS said:

    Yougov this week
    Ref 27 (=)
    Lab 23 (-1)
    Con 17 (=)
    LD 16 (+1)
    Green 10 (=)

    Lib-Con crossover still tantalisingly close.

    Yougov recently has been reasonably good for Labour. Yes I know 23% is not reasonably good for an incumbent governing party by any stretch, but it’s all relative. They have 10% Greens of which they can likely squeeze a good 3% in a GE, or as much as 6% if it turns out to be a battle royal with Reform.
    YouGov are the LDs best pollster so any crossover likely with them (Techne have not polled for the last 2 weeks and were the other very close one)
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 14,698
    nova said:

    algarkirk said:

    The YouGov polling is odd to say the least, and cries out for qualitative data from the 44% who feel Starmer and Labour have done badly.

    What is it they have done badly, and what should they have done instead?

    I suspect there isn't much more to it. You could ask any question about any topic, and I bet at least that many would say Labour handled it badly.
    You may be right. But if you are, what do the answers tell anyone? And does it suggest that the framing of questions needs a bit of thought?
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 66,443
    Paul Johnson
    @PJTheEconomist

    Another £30bn on defence. U turn on winter fuel. Rebellion on plans which just slightly slow huge increases in spending on disability benefits.

    If spending goes only one way then so, inevitably, will tax. Historic increases already this decade. Looks like a lot more to come.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 27,796
    stodge said:

    Morning all :)

    On a complete tangent, this story caught my eye:

    https://www.getsurrey.co.uk/news/surrey-news/surrey-council-agrees-buy-oil-31917278

    Now, what caught my eye wasn't the story itself but the way it was reported. The "council" aren't spending any money on the painting - £2,500 (or half) is coming from a fund held by Chertsey Museum (run by Runnymede BC) towards the painting.

    Superficially, anyone seeing this might think "this council is spending thousands of pounds of public money on some painting, what a waste". Er, no, it's £2,500 from a fund used by the museum to improve its collection.

    Now, you could argue there are better works on which the museum could have spent £2,500 - I don't know - but the clickbait nature of the headline promises far more than it delivers.

    My other thought is it seems a waste of Councillor time to approve this - the Museum should have the delegated authority to spend its own money.

    As a further aside, when the various DLOGEs (or whatever) instigated by Reform sweep through councils like Kent and Derbyshire, they are going to find this kind of heritage in museums, council headquarters buildings and record offices. There will be those who will doubtless argue this kind of heritage has no place in a modern cash-strapped council (it'll be a test of whether Reform's apparent love of British history and nostalgia stands up to reality). The problem is much of the art in council buildings has been donated or bequeathed to the authorities so can it really be sold off? Should it?

    You could argue if land and buildings can be sold off to provide capital receipt to maintain services why not sell off the family silver (especially if it's the good stuff)?

    Big question is whether its on public display, private display or just kept in storage.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 31,279
    rcs1000 said:

    Given the mixed messages out of Iran overnight re cessefire, its not entirely impossible a coup is occuring or that Khomeini is dead

    My guess is that any coup would be precipitated by protests on the streets of Tehran and other major cities. I just don't see the alternative power center in Iran for an insider coup.
    Given much of the leadership has been killed in the past fortnight, it becomes a matter of semantics as to whether any new leadership amounts to a coup or just a reshuffle. I guess if the Supreme Leader changes might be the main criterion.

    Ironically, Iran's presidential election was due this week. Is it going ahead?
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 66,443

    ‪Katja Bego‬
    @katjabego.bsky.social‬

    Morning of the NATO summit: two key train lines in the Netherlands are down (Amsterdam-Schiphol; The Hague- Rotterdam) due to power cuts caused by “unidentified” fires along the tracks.

    Accidents? Maybe. But we see similar “incidents” all over Europe, and no clue of scale.

    https://bsky.app/profile/katjabego.bsky.social/post/3lsdkz4cdak2u
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 54,693

    Given the mixed messages out of Iran overnight re cessefire, its not entirely impossible a coup is occuring or that Khomeini is dead

    So Khomeini didn't die of old age in 1989?
    DavidL said:

    Given the mixed messages out of Iran overnight re cessefire, its not entirely impossible a coup is occuring or that Khomeini is dead

    Khomeini is definitely dead and has been for a very long time. Khamenei, I am not so sure about.
    Excuse the spelling!
    "All Iranians look the same to me!"
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 11,881

    Given the mixed messages out of Iran overnight re cessefire, its not entirely impossible a coup is occuring or that Khomeini is dead

    So Khomeini didn't die of old age in 1989?
    DavidL said:

    Given the mixed messages out of Iran overnight re cessefire, its not entirely impossible a coup is occuring or that Khomeini is dead

    Khomeini is definitely dead and has been for a very long time. Khamenei, I am not so sure about.
    Excuse the spelling!
    "All Iranians look the same to me!"
    More they all sound the same!
  • glwglw Posts: 10,446
    Nigelb said:

    Who to believe ?
    It's not as though either are particularly reliable sources, and it sounds like motivated reasoning on both sides.

    Competing claims now about the status of Iran’s HEU. Senator Markwayne Mullin, on the Armed Services Committee, says U.S. intel determined Iran hadn’t moved it from Fordow before the American strike; two Israeli officials told NYT they likely did.
    https://x.com/michaeldweiss/status/1937398505611636908

    The last official location of the HEU, according to the IAEA on June 13, was Isfahan not Fordo. The tunnels there are said to be both deeper and in harder rock than Fordo. There's also a decent chance the HEU was moved anyway, as it was supposedly in easily transportable barrels.

    What the US/Israel have done is target the known enrichment facilities, basically to stop or slow the final stages of enrichment, they have probably achieved their aims. It is a lot less likely that they have destroyed or secured the HEU itself, and Iran if it still posesses it will likely disperse it in many new sites.

    The problem is that Iran no longer needs large scale enrichment facilities they can go slowly and still have enough weapons grade HEU quite soon for a handful of bombs. At which point external attemps at regime change are likely to cease, in the same way that nobody talks about toppling the North Korean regime since they developed the bomb.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 128,261
    So Reform voters strongly in favour of the US bombing of the Iranian nuclear sites, Labour and LD voters strongly against. Tory voters split but not wanting UK involvement.

    In the US while Republicans backed the bombing most US voters didn't overall, perhaps why Trump has now called for peace talks
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 128,261
    rcs1000 said:

    Given the mixed messages out of Iran overnight re cessefire, its not entirely impossible a coup is occuring or that Khomeini is dead

    My guess is that any coup would be precipitated by protests on the streets of Tehran and other major cities. I just don't see the alternative power center in Iran for an insider coup.
    Israel wants the Shah to be it
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 14,698

    The challenge for Reform over the next three years is to think less about winning an election and more about the challenges of government. It doesn’t need lots of clever gimmicks. The Starmer administration is so hopelessly inept that it will inevitably lose the next election.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2025/06/23/nigel-farages-robin-hood-tax-is-nothing-more-than-a-gimmick

    The idea that Labour cannot form the government in 2029 is delusional. All politics is relative and even if they are all useless someone has to come first. At the next GE the question will still be about who can be the least worst at being the government, like it always is. At the moment for there are no candidates other than Labour for that pole position.

    Labour or Labour led government remains the stromng favourite for 2029.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 78,590
    glw said:

    Nigelb said:

    Who to believe ?
    It's not as though either are particularly reliable sources, and it sounds like motivated reasoning on both sides.

    Competing claims now about the status of Iran’s HEU. Senator Markwayne Mullin, on the Armed Services Committee, says U.S. intel determined Iran hadn’t moved it from Fordow before the American strike; two Israeli officials told NYT they likely did.
    https://x.com/michaeldweiss/status/1937398505611636908

    The last official location of the HEU, according to the IAEA on June 13, was Isfahan not Fordo. The tunnels there are said to be both deeper and in harder rock than Fordo. There's also a decent chance the HEU was moved anyway, as it was supposedly in easily transportable barrels.

    What the US/Israel have done is target the known enrichment facilities, basically to stop or slow the final stages of enrichment, they have probably achieved their aims. It is a lot less likely that they have destroyed or secured the HEU itself, and Iran if it still posesses it will likely disperse it in many new sites.

    The problem is that Iran no longer needs large scale enrichment facilities they can go slowly and still have enough weapons grade HEU quite soon for a handful of bombs. At which point external attemps at regime change are likely to cease, in the same way that nobody talks about toppling the North Korean regime since they developed the bomb.
    We can look forward to Donald exchanging perfect letters with the mullahs ?
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,705
    edited 8:34AM

    rcs1000 said:

    Given the mixed messages out of Iran overnight re cessefire, its not entirely impossible a coup is occuring or that Khomeini is dead

    My guess is that any coup would be precipitated by protests on the streets of Tehran and other major cities. I just don't see the alternative power center in Iran for an insider coup.
    Fair point.
    I gather from British sources that there is substantial underground opposition in Iran, though not much for the return of the Shah's family and only limited enthusiasm for anything resembling a Western democracy. A military regime without extreme religious trappings seems possible. That'd probably be better for Iranians - less clear whether it would improve peace chances.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 78,590
    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Given the mixed messages out of Iran overnight re cessefire, its not entirely impossible a coup is occuring or that Khomeini is dead

    My guess is that any coup would be precipitated by protests on the streets of Tehran and other major cities. I just don't see the alternative power center in Iran for an insider coup.
    Israel wants the Shah to be it
    Which is one reason it won't be.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 14,698

    Paul Johnson
    @PJTheEconomist

    Another £30bn on defence. U turn on winter fuel. Rebellion on plans which just slightly slow huge increases in spending on disability benefits.

    If spending goes only one way then so, inevitably, will tax. Historic increases already this decade. Looks like a lot more to come.

    Labour MPs I have heard so far opposing their own government, including on R4 Today this morning have had nothing to say, and weren't asked, about their plans for funding their costly thoughts. Are they under the illusion this is someone else's problem?
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 44,090
    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Given the mixed messages out of Iran overnight re cessefire, its not entirely impossible a coup is occuring or that Khomeini is dead

    My guess is that any coup would be precipitated by protests on the streets of Tehran and other major cities. I just don't see the alternative power center in Iran for an insider coup.
    Israel wants the Shah to be it
    He's not the Shah yet (ever)!
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 78,590
    edited 8:39AM
    algarkirk said:

    Paul Johnson
    @PJTheEconomist

    Another £30bn on defence. U turn on winter fuel. Rebellion on plans which just slightly slow huge increases in spending on disability benefits.

    If spending goes only one way then so, inevitably, will tax. Historic increases already this decade. Looks like a lot more to come.

    Labour MPs I have heard so far opposing their own government, including on R4 Today this morning have had nothing to say, and weren't asked, about their plans for funding their costly thoughts. Are they under the illusion this is someone else's problem?
    Their line is that they're not actually opposing the government, while voting against it.

    Their illusion seems to involve some version of cakeism.

    I'd actually be interested in Nick's take on this. While I assume that he's likely also to oppose the legislation, how does he see the alternative ?
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 60,382
    glw said:

    Nigelb said:

    Who to believe ?
    It's not as though either are particularly reliable sources, and it sounds like motivated reasoning on both sides.

    Competing claims now about the status of Iran’s HEU. Senator Markwayne Mullin, on the Armed Services Committee, says U.S. intel determined Iran hadn’t moved it from Fordow before the American strike; two Israeli officials told NYT they likely did.
    https://x.com/michaeldweiss/status/1937398505611636908

    The last official location of the HEU, according to the IAEA on June 13, was Isfahan not Fordo. The tunnels there are said to be both deeper and in harder rock than Fordo. There's also a decent chance the HEU was moved anyway, as it was supposedly in easily transportable barrels.

    What the US/Israel have done is target the known enrichment facilities, basically to stop or slow the final stages of enrichment, they have probably achieved their aims. It is a lot less likely that they have destroyed or secured the HEU itself, and Iran if it still posesses it will likely disperse it in many new sites.

    The problem is that Iran no longer needs large scale enrichment facilities they can go slowly and still have enough weapons grade HEU quite soon for a handful of bombs. At which point external attemps at regime change are likely to cease, in the same way that nobody talks about toppling the North Korean regime since they developed the bomb.
    It's not quite that easy: you can distribute a enrichment cascade, but it adds time and complexity to the process. And each cetrifuge only does a small amount of the enruchment, so getting 90kg or so of 80+% U235 is probably still a far amount of work.

    But your fundamental point is, I think, sound. That is: getting the centrifuges and not the HEU just delays thing somewhat.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 14,881

    FPT Yes, a couple of species of bat carry rabies We have known this for years. Ever since a bat worker died of it:

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2002/nov/25/kirstyscott

    Stand Leon down...

    It's not even rabies proper. It's a bat relative of rabies.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 60,382
    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Given the mixed messages out of Iran overnight re cessefire, its not entirely impossible a coup is occuring or that Khomeini is dead

    My guess is that any coup would be precipitated by protests on the streets of Tehran and other major cities. I just don't see the alternative power center in Iran for an insider coup.
    Israel wants the Shah to be it
    I don't think there's any evidence that he's particularly popular in Iran. Remember, the urbal liberals want something like a Western democracy, while the rura zeolots want a theocracy. The market for an incompetent despot* is a small one.

    * Mind you, I'd have thought that about the US too
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 60,382

    FPT Yes, a couple of species of bat carry rabies We have known this for years. Ever since a bat worker died of it:

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2002/nov/25/kirstyscott

    Stand Leon down...

    It's not even rabies proper. It's a bat relative of rabies.
    That came from Wuhan. Everyone knows this.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 84,842
    edited 8:44AM
    Israel accuses Iran of violating ceasefire, vows to 'respond forcefully ' Israeli finance minister: 'Tehran will shake'
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 14,881

    The challenge for Reform over the next three years is to think less about winning an election and more about the challenges of government. It doesn’t need lots of clever gimmicks. The Starmer administration is so hopelessly inept that it will inevitably lose the next election.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2025/06/23/nigel-farages-robin-hood-tax-is-nothing-more-than-a-gimmick

    And will Reform rise to that challenge? No.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 78,590
    rcs1000 said:

    glw said:

    Nigelb said:

    Who to believe ?
    It's not as though either are particularly reliable sources, and it sounds like motivated reasoning on both sides.

    Competing claims now about the status of Iran’s HEU. Senator Markwayne Mullin, on the Armed Services Committee, says U.S. intel determined Iran hadn’t moved it from Fordow before the American strike; two Israeli officials told NYT they likely did.
    https://x.com/michaeldweiss/status/1937398505611636908

    The last official location of the HEU, according to the IAEA on June 13, was Isfahan not Fordo. The tunnels there are said to be both deeper and in harder rock than Fordo. There's also a decent chance the HEU was moved anyway, as it was supposedly in easily transportable barrels.

    What the US/Israel have done is target the known enrichment facilities, basically to stop or slow the final stages of enrichment, they have probably achieved their aims. It is a lot less likely that they have destroyed or secured the HEU itself, and Iran if it still posesses it will likely disperse it in many new sites.

    The problem is that Iran no longer needs large scale enrichment facilities they can go slowly and still have enough weapons grade HEU quite soon for a handful of bombs. At which point external attemps at regime change are likely to cease, in the same way that nobody talks about toppling the North Korean regime since they developed the bomb.
    It's not quite that easy: you can distribute a enrichment cascade, but it adds time and complexity to the process. And each cetrifuge only does a small amount of the enruchment, so getting 90kg or so of 80+% U235 is probably still a far amount of work.

    But your fundamental point is, I think, sound. That is: getting the centrifuges and not the HEU just delays thing somewhat.
    Hypothetically, what would prevent their secretly exchanging 200k of their enriched uranium with say 100k of weapons grade from Pakistan ?

    They do, after all, share a border.

    Plausibly deniable as having enriched it themselves.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 60,382

    Iran withdrawing from any cooperation with IAEA. Lol, ceasefires hey?

    To be honest, I'd do the same if I was them. How do they benefit from being a member? All it means is that everyone knows where their nuclear sites are. (This is not in any way to condone Iran's behaviour: I'm just pointing out that from the view of the Iranian leadership, how do they lose out from leaving the NPT or the IAEA?)
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