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Will Jenrick or Cleverly be the orange ball-chewing gimp of Boris Johnson? – politicalbetting.com

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  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 32,043
    kle4 said:

    It'll be Jenrick, he's better at transforming himself.

    Do you mean " shape shifting"?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 61,363

    Dura_Ace said:

    HYUFD said:

    Given the MoreinCommon poll has a Boris led Conservatives retaking the lead on 26% to 23% for Reform and 22% for Labour you would expect him to not only win any by election he fights in a Tory held seat but also to increase the Conservative majority.

    However I cannot see him becoming a contender for the leadership before he is back in Parliament. If Kemi lost a VONC next autumn and was replaced by Cleverly or Jenrick they would see themselves as having that mandate not Boris to lead the party until the next GE

    The tories need Johnson to survive. We'll see if they have the will and guile to engineer it.
    I think you are right.

    Declaration: I am no fan of Boris and voted for Hunt against him for leader. I think I was right to at the time, and I certainly accept the many criticisms of Boris expressed in this thread. But what's the alternative? PM Farage?

    So far as BJ is concerned, he does have a few good characteristics.

    1. I don't believe he is personally prejudiced or racialist
    2. He has been absolutely solid on Ukraine and a great friend to President Zelenskyy

    These are things I care about. And can you say the same for Farage and Reform? I don't think so.

    So, if you don't want to see the British Right-of-Centre go the same way as the US, then Boris may be the only realistic solution. Fight fire with fire when it comes to competing with Farage. Do what Farage least wants to happen - the re-emergence of Boris as a competitor. Throw over the card table.

    Hardly ideal. But there we are. Pragmatism is the British way, after all.

    Boris coming back would be the end of Britain as a serious country.
    Britain is a serious country?
    Well yes quite.
    We are falling well behind now.
    Bucharest in Romania is as rich as Yorkshire now.
    Take London and the SE away and we are basically eastern european standards of living
    Yet there are thousands of eastern Europeans who live in Yorkshire and near zero Yorkshiremen who live in eastern Europe.

    Not to mention that London has a lower standard of living than Yorkshire:

    https://www.thetimes.com/comment/columnists/article/does-living-and-working-in-london-give-you-a-wealthier-lifestyle-c2fwsvxfl
    Those eastern europeans came when eastern europe was substantially poorer.
    And if free movement between the EU and the UK was reintroduced we all know which way the flow would be.

    Partly because what you claimed previously is bollox:

    GDP per capita 2025 (IMF):

    Germany $56k
    UK $55k
    France $47k
    Italy $41k
    Spain $36k
    Czechia $33k
    Slovakia $27k
    Poland $27k
    Hungary $25k
    Romania $21k
    Bulgaria $19k

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)_per_capita

    Alternatively, median wealth per adult 2024:

    UK $164k
    France $141k
    Italy $114k
    Spain $111k
    Germany $67k
    Slovakia $41k
    Hungary $26k
    Czechia $24k
    Bulgaria $23k
    Romania $22k
    Poland $20k

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_wealth_per_adult
    I don’t quite buy these figures. France looks, feels, seems to be richer than the UK - not vastly, but enough that you sense it. Likewise Germany

    And I’ve travelled everywhere in France - not just nice places

    Am I suffering some optical illusion because France is more beautiful and spacious, and maintains the urban realm much better; or are the stats somehow deceptive?

    Genuine question
  • LeonLeon Posts: 61,363

    kinabalu said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    HYUFD said:

    Given the MoreinCommon poll has a Boris led Conservatives retaking the lead on 26% to 23% for Reform and 22% for Labour you would expect him to not only win any by election he fights in a Tory held seat but also to increase the Conservative majority.

    However I cannot see him becoming a contender for the leadership before he is back in Parliament. If Kemi lost a VONC next autumn and was replaced by Cleverly or Jenrick they would see themselves as having that mandate not Boris to lead the party until the next GE

    The tories need Johnson to survive. We'll see if they have the will and guile to engineer it.
    I think you are right.

    Declaration: I am no fan of Boris and voted for Hunt against him for leader. I think I was right to at the time, and I certainly accept the many criticisms of Boris expressed in this thread. But what's the alternative? PM Farage?

    So far as BJ is concerned, he does have a few good characteristics.

    1. I don't believe he is personally prejudiced or racialist
    2. He has been absolutely solid on Ukraine and a great friend to President Zelenskyy

    These are things I care about. And can you say the same for Farage and Reform? I don't think so.

    So, if you don't want to see the British Right-of-Centre go the same way as the US, then Boris may be the only realistic solution. Fight fire with fire when it comes to competing with Farage. Do what Farage least wants to happen - the re-emergence of Boris as a competitor. Throw over the card table.

    Hardly ideal. But there we are. Pragmatism is the British way, after all.

    Boris coming back would be the end of Britain as a serious country.
    Britain is a serious country?
    Well yes quite.
    We are falling well behind now.
    Bucharest in Romania is as rich as Yorkshire now.
    Take London and the SE away and we are basically eastern european standards of living
    Yet there are thousands of eastern Europeans who live in Yorkshire and near zero Yorkshiremen who live in eastern Europe.

    Not to mention that London has a lower standard of living than Yorkshire:

    https://www.thetimes.com/comment/columnists/article/does-living-and-working-in-london-give-you-a-wealthier-lifestyle-c2fwsvxfl
    Those eastern europeans came when eastern europe was substantially poorer.
    And if free movement between the EU and the UK was reintroduced we all know which way the flow would be.

    Partly because what you claimed previously is bollox:

    GDP per capita 2025 (IMF):

    Germany $56k
    UK $55k
    France $47k
    Italy $41k
    Spain $36k
    Czechia $33k
    Slovakia $27k
    Poland $27k
    Hungary $25k
    Romania $21k
    Bulgaria $19k

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)_per_capita

    Alternatively, median wealth per adult 2024:

    UK $164k
    France $141k
    Italy $114k
    Spain $111k
    Germany $67k
    Slovakia $41k
    Hungary $26k
    Czechia $24k
    Bulgaria $23k
    Romania $22k
    Poland $20k

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_wealth_per_adult
    I find these sort of charts incredibly annoying because they are misleading, gdp per capita is a useful measure for individual countries to use to see if on the whole they are getting better. Between countries however I think they are actually not only useless but detrimental.

    My reasoning for this is that is for instance you use the basket of goods we use to calculate cpih you may well find

    Country A gdp per capita 50000$ basket of goods value = 1000$
    Country B gdp per capita 100000$ basket of goods value = 3000$

    So by purely gdp per capita measures people in country B are twice as well off whereas in reality because they have a cost of living 3 times higher

    Therefore for how far the working wage goes

    Country A realistically is 50
    Country B realistically is 33.33
    Is there a gap in the market for PPP adjusted GDP per capita?
    https://statisticstimes.com/economy/european-countries-by-gdp-per-capita.php

    Has a PPP adjusted table -

    PPP Adjusted GDP per Capita for European Countries (2025)

    Country GDP per Capita (PPP, Int. $)
    Luxembourg154,915
    Ireland131,548
    Norway106,540
    Switzerland98,145
    Denmark85,789
    Netherlands83,823
    San Marino82,579
    Iceland80,318
    Sweden74,143
    Austria74,976
    Belgium75,187
    Malta75,822
    Germany72,660
    Finland67,074
    France67,658
    United Kingdom64,384
    Italy62,603
    Slovenia58,153
    Spain56,659
    Lithuania55,995
    Czech Republic59,205
    Cyprus59,858
    Estonia49,697
    Portugal51,257
    Poland54,498
    Slovakia47,439
    Romania49,944
    Hungary49,147
    Latvia45,447
    Croatia51,224
    Greece43,801
    Bulgaria41,506
    Montenegro33,620
    Belarus33,603
    Serbia30,909
    North Macedonia28,720
    Albania22,730
    Bosnia and Herzegovina22,611
    Moldova19,909
    Ukraine20,757
    Kosovo17,835
    Ah. Just catching up with the thread

    That matches the “feel” of what I experience when abroad. France is slightly richer than us, Germany notably richer

    The tax havens at the top are clear distortions, however
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 10,080
    Leon said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    HYUFD said:

    Given the MoreinCommon poll has a Boris led Conservatives retaking the lead on 26% to 23% for Reform and 22% for Labour you would expect him to not only win any by election he fights in a Tory held seat but also to increase the Conservative majority.

    However I cannot see him becoming a contender for the leadership before he is back in Parliament. If Kemi lost a VONC next autumn and was replaced by Cleverly or Jenrick they would see themselves as having that mandate not Boris to lead the party until the next GE

    The tories need Johnson to survive. We'll see if they have the will and guile to engineer it.
    I think you are right.

    Declaration: I am no fan of Boris and voted for Hunt against him for leader. I think I was right to at the time, and I certainly accept the many criticisms of Boris expressed in this thread. But what's the alternative? PM Farage?

    So far as BJ is concerned, he does have a few good characteristics.

    1. I don't believe he is personally prejudiced or racialist
    2. He has been absolutely solid on Ukraine and a great friend to President Zelenskyy

    These are things I care about. And can you say the same for Farage and Reform? I don't think so.

    So, if you don't want to see the British Right-of-Centre go the same way as the US, then Boris may be the only realistic solution. Fight fire with fire when it comes to competing with Farage. Do what Farage least wants to happen - the re-emergence of Boris as a competitor. Throw over the card table.

    Hardly ideal. But there we are. Pragmatism is the British way, after all.

    Boris coming back would be the end of Britain as a serious country.
    Britain is a serious country?
    Well yes quite.
    We are falling well behind now.
    Bucharest in Romania is as rich as Yorkshire now.
    Take London and the SE away and we are basically eastern european standards of living
    Yet there are thousands of eastern Europeans who live in Yorkshire and near zero Yorkshiremen who live in eastern Europe.

    Not to mention that London has a lower standard of living than Yorkshire:

    https://www.thetimes.com/comment/columnists/article/does-living-and-working-in-london-give-you-a-wealthier-lifestyle-c2fwsvxfl
    Those eastern europeans came when eastern europe was substantially poorer.
    And if free movement between the EU and the UK was reintroduced we all know which way the flow would be.

    Partly because what you claimed previously is bollox:

    GDP per capita 2025 (IMF):

    Germany $56k
    UK $55k
    France $47k
    Italy $41k
    Spain $36k
    Czechia $33k
    Slovakia $27k
    Poland $27k
    Hungary $25k
    Romania $21k
    Bulgaria $19k

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)_per_capita

    Alternatively, median wealth per adult 2024:

    UK $164k
    France $141k
    Italy $114k
    Spain $111k
    Germany $67k
    Slovakia $41k
    Hungary $26k
    Czechia $24k
    Bulgaria $23k
    Romania $22k
    Poland $20k

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_wealth_per_adult
    I don’t quite buy these figures. France looks, feels, seems to be richer than the UK - not vastly, but enough that you sense it. Likewise Germany

    And I’ve travelled everywhere in France - not just nice places

    Am I suffering some optical illusion because France is more beautiful and spacious, and maintains the urban realm much better; or are the stats somehow deceptive?

    Genuine question
    It's difference between GDP and living standards. The economic right enjoy quoting GDP, but it's on certain measure of living standards that some parts of Eastern Europe are set to overtake the UK soon, not GDP.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 24,718

    Part two of David Betz’ piece on civil war:

    https://x.com/davidbe31099196/status/1926893498113941561

    “That civil war is looming in the West is a logical conclusion of standard, well-understood precepts of social science.”

    Part 1: https://www.militarystrategymagazine.com/article/civil-war-comes-to-the-west/
    Part 2: https://www.militarystrategymagazine.com/article/civil-war-comes-to-the-west-part-ii-strategic-realities/
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 10,080
    And I agree with you, France and Germany clearly have higher living standards than the modern UK, post-1980's.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 59,983
    edited May 26
    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    HYUFD said:

    Given the MoreinCommon poll has a Boris led Conservatives retaking the lead on 26% to 23% for Reform and 22% for Labour you would expect him to not only win any by election he fights in a Tory held seat but also to increase the Conservative majority.

    However I cannot see him becoming a contender for the leadership before he is back in Parliament. If Kemi lost a VONC next autumn and was replaced by Cleverly or Jenrick they would see themselves as having that mandate not Boris to lead the party until the next GE

    The tories need Johnson to survive. We'll see if they have the will and guile to engineer it.
    I think you are right.

    Declaration: I am no fan of Boris and voted for Hunt against him for leader. I think I was right to at the time, and I certainly accept the many criticisms of Boris expressed in this thread. But what's the alternative? PM Farage?

    So far as BJ is concerned, he does have a few good characteristics.

    1. I don't believe he is personally prejudiced or racialist
    2. He has been absolutely solid on Ukraine and a great friend to President Zelenskyy

    These are things I care about. And can you say the same for Farage and Reform? I don't think so.

    So, if you don't want to see the British Right-of-Centre go the same way as the US, then Boris may be the only realistic solution. Fight fire with fire when it comes to competing with Farage. Do what Farage least wants to happen - the re-emergence of Boris as a competitor. Throw over the card table.

    Hardly ideal. But there we are. Pragmatism is the British way, after all.

    Boris coming back would be the end of Britain as a serious country.
    Britain is a serious country?
    Well yes quite.
    We are falling well behind now.
    Bucharest in Romania is as rich as Yorkshire now.
    Take London and the SE away and we are basically eastern european standards of living
    Yet there are thousands of eastern Europeans who live in Yorkshire and near zero Yorkshiremen who live in eastern Europe.

    Not to mention that London has a lower standard of living than Yorkshire:

    https://www.thetimes.com/comment/columnists/article/does-living-and-working-in-london-give-you-a-wealthier-lifestyle-c2fwsvxfl
    Those eastern europeans came when eastern europe was substantially poorer.
    And if free movement between the EU and the UK was reintroduced we all know which way the flow would be.

    Partly because what you claimed previously is bollox:

    GDP per capita 2025 (IMF):

    Germany $56k
    UK $55k
    France $47k
    Italy $41k
    Spain $36k
    Czechia $33k
    Slovakia $27k
    Poland $27k
    Hungary $25k
    Romania $21k
    Bulgaria $19k

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)_per_capita

    Alternatively, median wealth per adult 2024:

    UK $164k
    France $141k
    Italy $114k
    Spain $111k
    Germany $67k
    Slovakia $41k
    Hungary $26k
    Czechia $24k
    Bulgaria $23k
    Romania $22k
    Poland $20k

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_wealth_per_adult
    I find these sort of charts incredibly annoying because they are misleading, gdp per capita is a useful measure for individual countries to use to see if on the whole they are getting better. Between countries however I think they are actually not only useless but detrimental.

    My reasoning for this is that is for instance you use the basket of goods we use to calculate cpih you may well find

    Country A gdp per capita 50000$ basket of goods value = 1000$
    Country B gdp per capita 100000$ basket of goods value = 3000$

    So by purely gdp per capita measures people in country B are twice as well off whereas in reality because they have a cost of living 3 times higher

    Therefore for how far the working wage goes

    Country A realistically is 50
    Country B realistically is 33.33
    Is there a gap in the market for PPP adjusted GDP per capita?
    https://statisticstimes.com/economy/european-countries-by-gdp-per-capita.php

    Has a PPP adjusted table -

    PPP Adjusted GDP per Capita for European Countries (2025)

    Country GDP per Capita (PPP, Int. $)
    Luxembourg154,915
    Ireland131,548
    Norway106,540
    Switzerland98,145
    Denmark85,789
    Netherlands83,823
    San Marino82,579
    Iceland80,318
    Sweden74,143
    Austria74,976
    Belgium75,187
    Malta75,822
    Germany72,660
    Finland67,074
    France67,658
    United Kingdom64,384
    Italy62,603
    Slovenia58,153
    Spain56,659
    Lithuania55,995
    Czech Republic59,205
    Cyprus59,858
    Estonia49,697
    Portugal51,257
    Poland54,498
    Slovakia47,439
    Romania49,944
    Hungary49,147
    Latvia45,447
    Croatia51,224
    Greece43,801
    Bulgaria41,506
    Montenegro33,620
    Belarus33,603
    Serbia30,909
    North Macedonia28,720
    Albania22,730
    Bosnia and Herzegovina22,611
    Moldova19,909
    Ukraine20,757
    Kosovo17,835
    Ah. Just catching up with the thread

    That matches the “feel” of what I experience when abroad. France is slightly richer than us, Germany notably richer

    The tax havens at the top are clear distortions, however
    That's because a lot of the wealth doesn't accrue to the locals. If you look at *most* countries, then biggest component of GDP is wages. If you look at Ireland or Malta, a disproportionate amount is corporate profits.

    So, GDP per capita (less corporate profits) adjusted for PPP is probably the best rough and ready measure.

  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 11,639

    Omnium said:

    viewcode said:

    .

    Andy_JS said:
    This feels a bit like self-employed Times/Spectator writers trying to make lanyards a thing when to a vast proportion of people employed by others, they’re just a routine part of daily working life.
    They never used to be..the civil service is not a template for the rest of the workforce..🧐🥴
    I've worked in offices all my working life, and in nearly every one there was some kind of card with my picture on it that I had to show/swipe to gain entry/exit. Sometimes it was attached to my clothing. Now it's on a lanyard round my neck. This "lanyard-class" silliness just goes to show that the Times and Spectator are staffed by spoilt idiots who have never done a day's work in their life. What are they going to go after next? Yearly assessments? Passwords? Laptop usage?
    Better to keep the pass in your jacket pocket. If it happens to be warm then your trouser pocket. Pockets on shirts are to be avoided, and not the place for your pass. The absolute greatest sin is a short sleeved shirt with a pocket and pens in the pocket plus a lanyard flapping around too.

    (In reality I confess though since I started wearing glasses I have been tempted by the merits of shirt pockets, but fortunately any quality shirt - double cuffed, proper collar - is unlikely to have such a thing, and thus I've avoided such things)
    We are obliged to have our ID on display at all times. Hence the PITA lanyard.

    That is harsh!

    (I'm retired now, but I think I just ignored similar directives, but was goody-goody on others that I could live with to placate the wrath of the clip-counters.)
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 10,802
    Leon said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    HYUFD said:

    Given the MoreinCommon poll has a Boris led Conservatives retaking the lead on 26% to 23% for Reform and 22% for Labour you would expect him to not only win any by election he fights in a Tory held seat but also to increase the Conservative majority.

    However I cannot see him becoming a contender for the leadership before he is back in Parliament. If Kemi lost a VONC next autumn and was replaced by Cleverly or Jenrick they would see themselves as having that mandate not Boris to lead the party until the next GE

    The tories need Johnson to survive. We'll see if they have the will and guile to engineer it.
    I think you are right.

    Declaration: I am no fan of Boris and voted for Hunt against him for leader. I think I was right to at the time, and I certainly accept the many criticisms of Boris expressed in this thread. But what's the alternative? PM Farage?

    So far as BJ is concerned, he does have a few good characteristics.

    1. I don't believe he is personally prejudiced or racialist
    2. He has been absolutely solid on Ukraine and a great friend to President Zelenskyy

    These are things I care about. And can you say the same for Farage and Reform? I don't think so.

    So, if you don't want to see the British Right-of-Centre go the same way as the US, then Boris may be the only realistic solution. Fight fire with fire when it comes to competing with Farage. Do what Farage least wants to happen - the re-emergence of Boris as a competitor. Throw over the card table.

    Hardly ideal. But there we are. Pragmatism is the British way, after all.

    Boris coming back would be the end of Britain as a serious country.
    Britain is a serious country?
    Well yes quite.
    We are falling well behind now.
    Bucharest in Romania is as rich as Yorkshire now.
    Take London and the SE away and we are basically eastern european standards of living
    Yet there are thousands of eastern Europeans who live in Yorkshire and near zero Yorkshiremen who live in eastern Europe.

    Not to mention that London has a lower standard of living than Yorkshire:

    https://www.thetimes.com/comment/columnists/article/does-living-and-working-in-london-give-you-a-wealthier-lifestyle-c2fwsvxfl
    Those eastern europeans came when eastern europe was substantially poorer.
    And if free movement between the EU and the UK was reintroduced we all know which way the flow would be.

    Partly because what you claimed previously is bollox:

    GDP per capita 2025 (IMF):

    Germany $56k
    UK $55k
    France $47k
    Italy $41k
    Spain $36k
    Czechia $33k
    Slovakia $27k
    Poland $27k
    Hungary $25k
    Romania $21k
    Bulgaria $19k

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)_per_capita

    Alternatively, median wealth per adult 2024:

    UK $164k
    France $141k
    Italy $114k
    Spain $111k
    Germany $67k
    Slovakia $41k
    Hungary $26k
    Czechia $24k
    Bulgaria $23k
    Romania $22k
    Poland $20k

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_wealth_per_adult
    I don’t quite buy these figures. France looks, feels, seems to be richer than the UK - not vastly, but enough that you sense it. Likewise Germany

    And I’ve travelled everywhere in France - not just nice places

    Am I suffering some optical illusion because France is more beautiful and spacious, and maintains the urban realm much better; or are the stats somehow deceptive?

    Genuine question
    French median income (PPP) and disposable income is a bit higher. On most other measures we are very similar, and both countries have fallen off quite a bit compared with other European countries.

    I think your urban realm theory could be true, but it will be very difficult to prove with financial information. There's not much available on local government.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 73,884

    Hello all.
    I see Trump os whining this morning that Putins acting a bit nasty. Oh dear it seems Trumps Putins bitch now.
    Oh and Trump has once again backed down on his tariff hard man talk with the EU. Pathetic.

    Blimey, even Putin's bots are fed up with Trump.

    The ghost of James Buchanan must be happy for the first time in nigh on two centuries.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 11,672

    Leon said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    HYUFD said:

    Given the MoreinCommon poll has a Boris led Conservatives retaking the lead on 26% to 23% for Reform and 22% for Labour you would expect him to not only win any by election he fights in a Tory held seat but also to increase the Conservative majority.

    However I cannot see him becoming a contender for the leadership before he is back in Parliament. If Kemi lost a VONC next autumn and was replaced by Cleverly or Jenrick they would see themselves as having that mandate not Boris to lead the party until the next GE

    The tories need Johnson to survive. We'll see if they have the will and guile to engineer it.
    I think you are right.

    Declaration: I am no fan of Boris and voted for Hunt against him for leader. I think I was right to at the time, and I certainly accept the many criticisms of Boris expressed in this thread. But what's the alternative? PM Farage?

    So far as BJ is concerned, he does have a few good characteristics.

    1. I don't believe he is personally prejudiced or racialist
    2. He has been absolutely solid on Ukraine and a great friend to President Zelenskyy

    These are things I care about. And can you say the same for Farage and Reform? I don't think so.

    So, if you don't want to see the British Right-of-Centre go the same way as the US, then Boris may be the only realistic solution. Fight fire with fire when it comes to competing with Farage. Do what Farage least wants to happen - the re-emergence of Boris as a competitor. Throw over the card table.

    Hardly ideal. But there we are. Pragmatism is the British way, after all.

    Boris coming back would be the end of Britain as a serious country.
    Britain is a serious country?
    Well yes quite.
    We are falling well behind now.
    Bucharest in Romania is as rich as Yorkshire now.
    Take London and the SE away and we are basically eastern european standards of living
    Yet there are thousands of eastern Europeans who live in Yorkshire and near zero Yorkshiremen who live in eastern Europe.

    Not to mention that London has a lower standard of living than Yorkshire:

    https://www.thetimes.com/comment/columnists/article/does-living-and-working-in-london-give-you-a-wealthier-lifestyle-c2fwsvxfl
    Those eastern europeans came when eastern europe was substantially poorer.
    And if free movement between the EU and the UK was reintroduced we all know which way the flow would be.

    Partly because what you claimed previously is bollox:

    GDP per capita 2025 (IMF):

    Germany $56k
    UK $55k
    France $47k
    Italy $41k
    Spain $36k
    Czechia $33k
    Slovakia $27k
    Poland $27k
    Hungary $25k
    Romania $21k
    Bulgaria $19k

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)_per_capita

    Alternatively, median wealth per adult 2024:

    UK $164k
    France $141k
    Italy $114k
    Spain $111k
    Germany $67k
    Slovakia $41k
    Hungary $26k
    Czechia $24k
    Bulgaria $23k
    Romania $22k
    Poland $20k

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_wealth_per_adult
    I don’t quite buy these figures. France looks, feels, seems to be richer than the UK - not vastly, but enough that you sense it. Likewise Germany

    And I’ve travelled everywhere in France - not just nice places

    Am I suffering some optical illusion because France is more beautiful and spacious, and maintains the urban realm much better; or are the stats somehow deceptive?

    Genuine question
    It's difference between GDP and living standards. The economic right enjoy quoting GDP, but it's on certain measure of living standards that some parts of Eastern Europe are set to overtake the UK soon, not GDP.
    Well I am economically of the right but I was saying in this thread that gdp per capita was worthless for comparing between countries
  • LeonLeon Posts: 61,363
    edited May 26

    And I agree with you, France and Germany clearly have higher living standards than the modern UK, post-1980's.

    I don’t think it’s post-1980s

    It’s happened in the last 20 years. Up until the GFC Britain was doing well, overtaking many EU countries. After that we flatlined - understandably, our biggest industry was walloped

    Austerity made it worse. Brexit didn’t help. Covid dealt a fearsome blow to our towns. On top of that, mass migration has been a disaster for the UK (and other European countries)

    The terrifying thing is that Britain’s decline feels like it is speeding up. But that is just “a feel”. I hope I’m wrong

  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 54,326
    Leon said:


    And I’ve travelled everywhere in France - not just nice places

    "Have you seen a grown man naked?"
  • LeonLeon Posts: 61,363
    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    HYUFD said:

    Given the MoreinCommon poll has a Boris led Conservatives retaking the lead on 26% to 23% for Reform and 22% for Labour you would expect him to not only win any by election he fights in a Tory held seat but also to increase the Conservative majority.

    However I cannot see him becoming a contender for the leadership before he is back in Parliament. If Kemi lost a VONC next autumn and was replaced by Cleverly or Jenrick they would see themselves as having that mandate not Boris to lead the party until the next GE

    The tories need Johnson to survive. We'll see if they have the will and guile to engineer it.
    I think you are right.

    Declaration: I am no fan of Boris and voted for Hunt against him for leader. I think I was right to at the time, and I certainly accept the many criticisms of Boris expressed in this thread. But what's the alternative? PM Farage?

    So far as BJ is concerned, he does have a few good characteristics.

    1. I don't believe he is personally prejudiced or racialist
    2. He has been absolutely solid on Ukraine and a great friend to President Zelenskyy

    These are things I care about. And can you say the same for Farage and Reform? I don't think so.

    So, if you don't want to see the British Right-of-Centre go the same way as the US, then Boris may be the only realistic solution. Fight fire with fire when it comes to competing with Farage. Do what Farage least wants to happen - the re-emergence of Boris as a competitor. Throw over the card table.

    Hardly ideal. But there we are. Pragmatism is the British way, after all.

    Boris coming back would be the end of Britain as a serious country.
    Britain is a serious country?
    Well yes quite.
    We are falling well behind now.
    Bucharest in Romania is as rich as Yorkshire now.
    Take London and the SE away and we are basically eastern european standards of living
    Yet there are thousands of eastern Europeans who live in Yorkshire and near zero Yorkshiremen who live in eastern Europe.

    Not to mention that London has a lower standard of living than Yorkshire:

    https://www.thetimes.com/comment/columnists/article/does-living-and-working-in-london-give-you-a-wealthier-lifestyle-c2fwsvxfl
    Those eastern europeans came when eastern europe was substantially poorer.
    And if free movement between the EU and the UK was reintroduced we all know which way the flow would be.

    Partly because what you claimed previously is bollox:

    GDP per capita 2025 (IMF):

    Germany $56k
    UK $55k
    France $47k
    Italy $41k
    Spain $36k
    Czechia $33k
    Slovakia $27k
    Poland $27k
    Hungary $25k
    Romania $21k
    Bulgaria $19k

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)_per_capita

    Alternatively, median wealth per adult 2024:

    UK $164k
    France $141k
    Italy $114k
    Spain $111k
    Germany $67k
    Slovakia $41k
    Hungary $26k
    Czechia $24k
    Bulgaria $23k
    Romania $22k
    Poland $20k

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_wealth_per_adult
    I find these sort of charts incredibly annoying because they are misleading, gdp per capita is a useful measure for individual countries to use to see if on the whole they are getting better. Between countries however I think they are actually not only useless but detrimental.

    My reasoning for this is that is for instance you use the basket of goods we use to calculate cpih you may well find

    Country A gdp per capita 50000$ basket of goods value = 1000$
    Country B gdp per capita 100000$ basket of goods value = 3000$

    So by purely gdp per capita measures people in country B are twice as well off whereas in reality because they have a cost of living 3 times higher

    Therefore for how far the working wage goes

    Country A realistically is 50
    Country B realistically is 33.33
    Is there a gap in the market for PPP adjusted GDP per capita?
    https://statisticstimes.com/economy/european-countries-by-gdp-per-capita.php

    Has a PPP adjusted table -

    PPP Adjusted GDP per Capita for European Countries (2025)

    Country GDP per Capita (PPP, Int. $)
    Luxembourg154,915
    Ireland131,548
    Norway106,540
    Switzerland98,145
    Denmark85,789
    Netherlands83,823
    San Marino82,579
    Iceland80,318
    Sweden74,143
    Austria74,976
    Belgium75,187
    Malta75,822
    Germany72,660
    Finland67,074
    France67,658
    United Kingdom64,384
    Italy62,603
    Slovenia58,153
    Spain56,659
    Lithuania55,995
    Czech Republic59,205
    Cyprus59,858
    Estonia49,697
    Portugal51,257
    Poland54,498
    Slovakia47,439
    Romania49,944
    Hungary49,147
    Latvia45,447
    Croatia51,224
    Greece43,801
    Bulgaria41,506
    Montenegro33,620
    Belarus33,603
    Serbia30,909
    North Macedonia28,720
    Albania22,730
    Bosnia and Herzegovina22,611
    Moldova19,909
    Ukraine20,757
    Kosovo17,835
    Ah. Just catching up with the thread

    That matches the “feel” of what I experience when abroad. France is slightly richer than us, Germany notably richer

    The tax havens at the top are clear distortions, however
    That's because a lot of the wealth doesn't accrue to the locals. If you look at *most* countries, then biggest component of GDP is wages. If you look at Ireland or Malta, a disproportionate amount is corporate profits.

    So, GDP per capita (less corporate profits) adjusted for PPP is probably the best rough and ready measure.

    Agreed
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 44,310

    kinabalu said:

    Very slow bank holiday.
    Feels like a usual Monday.

    Not at Tesco. Hell of a scrum in poultry.
    Another scrum at Aldi apparently, where some sort of pilates gadget is flying (or has already flown) off the shelves at £150 because traditional ones cost ten times that.
    Hmm wonder how good it can be at that price. My wife's proper one was well north of £3K
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 38,598
    AnneJGP said:

    Good evening, everyone.

    I have read the thread header and still don't understand the headline.

    In order to understand the headline you would need to have read the latest column from BoZo.

    Don't.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 35,230
    edited May 26
    "Fans of viral Labubu dolls have reacted angrily online after its maker pulled the toys from all UK stores following reports of customers fighting over them.

    Pop Mart, which makes the monster bag charms, told the BBC it had paused selling them in all 16 of its shops until June to "prevent any potential safety issues".

    Labubu fan Victoria Calvert said she witnessed chaos in the Stratford store in London. "It was just getting ridiculous to be in that situation where people were fighting and shouting and you felt scared.""

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cvgvwvvlnv3o

    Are people getting more stupid?
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 24,718
    Pagan2 said:

    "I accused men of being responsible for a social breakdown which is costing us all, as taxpayers, £9.1 billion per year, and which is producing a generation of ill-raised, ignorant, aggressive and illegitimate children.

    "With £90 billion currently spent on welfare, the great economic issues of our time are social. They are moral. And yet the Government is virtually incapacitated from utterance by its own bumbling.

    "The modern British male is useless. If he is blue collar, he is likely to be drunk, criminal, aimless, feckless and hopeless, and perhaps claiming to suffer from low self-esteem brought on by unemployment. If he is white collar, he is likely to be little better.

    "Something must be found, first, to restore women's desire to be married. That means addressing the feebleness of the modern Briton, his reluctance or inability to take control of his woman and be head of a household."


    - Boris: "The male sex is to blame for the appalling proliferation of single mothers", The Spectator, 19 August 1995.

    Was he talking about himself there and projecting?
    Yup
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 38,598
    Andy_JS said:

    Are people getting more stupid?

    Yes

    Social Media is working...
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 44,310

    Dura_Ace said:

    HYUFD said:

    Given the MoreinCommon poll has a Boris led Conservatives retaking the lead on 26% to 23% for Reform and 22% for Labour you would expect him to not only win any by election he fights in a Tory held seat but also to increase the Conservative majority.

    However I cannot see him becoming a contender for the leadership before he is back in Parliament. If Kemi lost a VONC next autumn and was replaced by Cleverly or Jenrick they would see themselves as having that mandate not Boris to lead the party until the next GE

    The tories need Johnson to survive. We'll see if they have the will and guile to engineer it.
    I think you are right.

    Declaration: I am no fan of Boris and voted for Hunt against him for leader. I think I was right to at the time, and I certainly accept the many criticisms of Boris expressed in this thread. But what's the alternative? PM Farage?

    So far as BJ is concerned, he does have a few good characteristics.

    1. I don't believe he is personally prejudiced or racialist
    2. He has been absolutely solid on Ukraine and a great friend to President Zelenskyy

    These are things I care about. And can you say the same for Farage and Reform? I don't think so.

    So, if you don't want to see the British Right-of-Centre go the same way as the US, then Boris may be the only realistic solution. Fight fire with fire when it comes to competing with Farage. Do what Farage least wants to happen - the re-emergence of Boris as a competitor. Throw over the card table.

    Hardly ideal. But there we are. Pragmatism is the British way, after all.

    Boris coming back would be the end of Britain as a serious country.
    Britain is a serious country?
    Well yes quite.
    We are falling well behind now.
    Bucharest in Romania is as rich as Yorkshire now.
    Take London and the SE away and we are basically eastern european standards of living
    Yet there are thousands of eastern Europeans who live in Yorkshire and near zero Yorkshiremen who live in eastern Europe.

    Not to mention that London has a lower standard of living than Yorkshire:

    https://www.thetimes.com/comment/columnists/article/does-living-and-working-in-london-give-you-a-wealthier-lifestyle-c2fwsvxfl
    Those eastern europeans came when eastern europe was substantially poorer.
    And if free movement between the EU and the UK was reintroduced we all know which way the flow would be.

    Partly because what you claimed previously is bollox:

    GDP per capita 2025 (IMF):

    Germany $56k
    UK $55k
    France $47k
    Italy $41k
    Spain $36k
    Czechia $33k
    Slovakia $27k
    Poland $27k
    Hungary $25k
    Romania $21k
    Bulgaria $19k

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)_per_capita

    Alternatively, median wealth per adult 2024:

    UK $164k
    France $141k
    Italy $114k
    Spain $111k
    Germany $67k
    Slovakia $41k
    Hungary $26k
    Czechia $24k
    Bulgaria $23k
    Romania $22k
    Poland $20k

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_wealth_per_adult
    How about cost of living, most of the eastern european countries you get a pint for a pound compared to the Dick Turpin rates here.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 24,718
    "Walking with Dinosaurs 2025" is on iPlayer

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m0024qbn
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 44,310
    kle4 said:

    Nigelb said:

    malcolmg said:

    Nigelb said:

    TimS said:

    Eabhal said:

    What is going to happen with energy today? We're already at 120%, exporting to the continent and the sun is barely up yet.

    I guess we'll be paying lots of turbines to turn off. What a waste.

    And we’re still burning gas, presumably down South because the grid can’t get the electricity from the wind farms quickly enough.

    0.41gw going into pumped storage.

    We’re also, oddly, buying electricity from France up the interconnector at the moment.
    Another good illustration of getting stuff built rather than messing around with planning enquiries and legal challenges for half a decade.

    Far more grid infrastructure could be built by now if that were the case.
    Sure you would love a tower in your garden
    I live in West Yorkshir, Malc.
    Pylons have crisscrossed the landscape for decades.
    Thank goodness, they'd never get built today if it were not already in place.
    Luckily I have never needed to live near one , they don't have look horrible in the countryside.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 38,598
    viewcode said:

    "Walking with Dinosaurs 2025" is on iPlayer

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m0024qbn

    I see they are remaking Jurassic Park. Again. How many times can they reanimate the same strands of DNA...
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 27,685
    Leon said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    HYUFD said:

    Given the MoreinCommon poll has a Boris led Conservatives retaking the lead on 26% to 23% for Reform and 22% for Labour you would expect him to not only win any by election he fights in a Tory held seat but also to increase the Conservative majority.

    However I cannot see him becoming a contender for the leadership before he is back in Parliament. If Kemi lost a VONC next autumn and was replaced by Cleverly or Jenrick they would see themselves as having that mandate not Boris to lead the party until the next GE

    The tories need Johnson to survive. We'll see if they have the will and guile to engineer it.
    I think you are right.

    Declaration: I am no fan of Boris and voted for Hunt against him for leader. I think I was right to at the time, and I certainly accept the many criticisms of Boris expressed in this thread. But what's the alternative? PM Farage?

    So far as BJ is concerned, he does have a few good characteristics.

    1. I don't believe he is personally prejudiced or racialist
    2. He has been absolutely solid on Ukraine and a great friend to President Zelenskyy

    These are things I care about. And can you say the same for Farage and Reform? I don't think so.

    So, if you don't want to see the British Right-of-Centre go the same way as the US, then Boris may be the only realistic solution. Fight fire with fire when it comes to competing with Farage. Do what Farage least wants to happen - the re-emergence of Boris as a competitor. Throw over the card table.

    Hardly ideal. But there we are. Pragmatism is the British way, after all.

    Boris coming back would be the end of Britain as a serious country.
    Britain is a serious country?
    Well yes quite.
    We are falling well behind now.
    Bucharest in Romania is as rich as Yorkshire now.
    Take London and the SE away and we are basically eastern european standards of living
    Yet there are thousands of eastern Europeans who live in Yorkshire and near zero Yorkshiremen who live in eastern Europe.

    Not to mention that London has a lower standard of living than Yorkshire:

    https://www.thetimes.com/comment/columnists/article/does-living-and-working-in-london-give-you-a-wealthier-lifestyle-c2fwsvxfl
    Those eastern europeans came when eastern europe was substantially poorer.
    And if free movement between the EU and the UK was reintroduced we all know which way the flow would be.

    Partly because what you claimed previously is bollox:

    GDP per capita 2025 (IMF):

    Germany $56k
    UK $55k
    France $47k
    Italy $41k
    Spain $36k
    Czechia $33k
    Slovakia $27k
    Poland $27k
    Hungary $25k
    Romania $21k
    Bulgaria $19k

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)_per_capita

    Alternatively, median wealth per adult 2024:

    UK $164k
    France $141k
    Italy $114k
    Spain $111k
    Germany $67k
    Slovakia $41k
    Hungary $26k
    Czechia $24k
    Bulgaria $23k
    Romania $22k
    Poland $20k

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_wealth_per_adult
    I don’t quite buy these figures. France looks, feels, seems to be richer than the UK - not vastly, but enough that you sense it. Likewise Germany

    And I’ve travelled everywhere in France - not just nice places

    Am I suffering some optical illusion because France is more beautiful and spacious, and maintains the urban realm much better; or are the stats somehow deceptive?

    Genuine question
    Travel can give a partial picture but never a full one and you really haven't travelled everywhere in France.

    You can drive around a district in this country and get an impression of its affluence and living standards, you can then go a different route through the same district and get a very different impression.

    It might even be weather related - people tend to go on holiday in summer and travel in good weather. The same places might look a lot less beautiful on a rainy day in November.

    And travel through a place isn't the same as living there either.

    There are also non-economic issues - GDP is not the same as living standards which are not the same as quality of life.

    RFK's famous speech:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3FAmr1la6w0

    As a practical example when they shut the pits they reduced GDP and the living standards of some but it improved my quality of life by reducing air pollution and creating lots of new country parks for me to walk though.

  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 35,230
    AnneJGP said:

    Good evening, everyone.

    I have read the thread header and still don't understand the headline.

    TSE likes to give our brains a work-out.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 44,310

    Leon said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    HYUFD said:

    Given the MoreinCommon poll has a Boris led Conservatives retaking the lead on 26% to 23% for Reform and 22% for Labour you would expect him to not only win any by election he fights in a Tory held seat but also to increase the Conservative majority.

    However I cannot see him becoming a contender for the leadership before he is back in Parliament. If Kemi lost a VONC next autumn and was replaced by Cleverly or Jenrick they would see themselves as having that mandate not Boris to lead the party until the next GE

    The tories need Johnson to survive. We'll see if they have the will and guile to engineer it.
    I think you are right.

    Declaration: I am no fan of Boris and voted for Hunt against him for leader. I think I was right to at the time, and I certainly accept the many criticisms of Boris expressed in this thread. But what's the alternative? PM Farage?

    So far as BJ is concerned, he does have a few good characteristics.

    1. I don't believe he is personally prejudiced or racialist
    2. He has been absolutely solid on Ukraine and a great friend to President Zelenskyy

    These are things I care about. And can you say the same for Farage and Reform? I don't think so.

    So, if you don't want to see the British Right-of-Centre go the same way as the US, then Boris may be the only realistic solution. Fight fire with fire when it comes to competing with Farage. Do what Farage least wants to happen - the re-emergence of Boris as a competitor. Throw over the card table.

    Hardly ideal. But there we are. Pragmatism is the British way, after all.

    Boris coming back would be the end of Britain as a serious country.
    Britain is a serious country?
    Well yes quite.
    We are falling well behind now.
    Bucharest in Romania is as rich as Yorkshire now.
    Take London and the SE away and we are basically eastern european standards of living
    Yet there are thousands of eastern Europeans who live in Yorkshire and near zero Yorkshiremen who live in eastern Europe.

    Not to mention that London has a lower standard of living than Yorkshire:

    https://www.thetimes.com/comment/columnists/article/does-living-and-working-in-london-give-you-a-wealthier-lifestyle-c2fwsvxfl
    Those eastern europeans came when eastern europe was substantially poorer.
    And if free movement between the EU and the UK was reintroduced we all know which way the flow would be.

    Partly because what you claimed previously is bollox:

    GDP per capita 2025 (IMF):

    Germany $56k
    UK $55k
    France $47k
    Italy $41k
    Spain $36k
    Czechia $33k
    Slovakia $27k
    Poland $27k
    Hungary $25k
    Romania $21k
    Bulgaria $19k

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)_per_capita

    Alternatively, median wealth per adult 2024:

    UK $164k
    France $141k
    Italy $114k
    Spain $111k
    Germany $67k
    Slovakia $41k
    Hungary $26k
    Czechia $24k
    Bulgaria $23k
    Romania $22k
    Poland $20k

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_wealth_per_adult
    I don’t quite buy these figures. France looks, feels, seems to be richer than the UK - not vastly, but enough that you sense it. Likewise Germany

    And I’ve travelled everywhere in France - not just nice places

    Am I suffering some optical illusion because France is more beautiful and spacious, and maintains the urban realm much better; or are the stats somehow deceptive?

    Genuine question
    It's difference between GDP and living standards. The economic right enjoy quoting GDP, but it's on certain measure of living standards that some parts of Eastern Europe are set to overtake the UK soon, not GDP.
    Many already well ahead.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 59,983
    malcolmg said:

    Leon said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    HYUFD said:

    Given the MoreinCommon poll has a Boris led Conservatives retaking the lead on 26% to 23% for Reform and 22% for Labour you would expect him to not only win any by election he fights in a Tory held seat but also to increase the Conservative majority.

    However I cannot see him becoming a contender for the leadership before he is back in Parliament. If Kemi lost a VONC next autumn and was replaced by Cleverly or Jenrick they would see themselves as having that mandate not Boris to lead the party until the next GE

    The tories need Johnson to survive. We'll see if they have the will and guile to engineer it.
    I think you are right.

    Declaration: I am no fan of Boris and voted for Hunt against him for leader. I think I was right to at the time, and I certainly accept the many criticisms of Boris expressed in this thread. But what's the alternative? PM Farage?

    So far as BJ is concerned, he does have a few good characteristics.

    1. I don't believe he is personally prejudiced or racialist
    2. He has been absolutely solid on Ukraine and a great friend to President Zelenskyy

    These are things I care about. And can you say the same for Farage and Reform? I don't think so.

    So, if you don't want to see the British Right-of-Centre go the same way as the US, then Boris may be the only realistic solution. Fight fire with fire when it comes to competing with Farage. Do what Farage least wants to happen - the re-emergence of Boris as a competitor. Throw over the card table.

    Hardly ideal. But there we are. Pragmatism is the British way, after all.

    Boris coming back would be the end of Britain as a serious country.
    Britain is a serious country?
    Well yes quite.
    We are falling well behind now.
    Bucharest in Romania is as rich as Yorkshire now.
    Take London and the SE away and we are basically eastern european standards of living
    Yet there are thousands of eastern Europeans who live in Yorkshire and near zero Yorkshiremen who live in eastern Europe.

    Not to mention that London has a lower standard of living than Yorkshire:

    https://www.thetimes.com/comment/columnists/article/does-living-and-working-in-london-give-you-a-wealthier-lifestyle-c2fwsvxfl
    Those eastern europeans came when eastern europe was substantially poorer.
    And if free movement between the EU and the UK was reintroduced we all know which way the flow would be.

    Partly because what you claimed previously is bollox:

    GDP per capita 2025 (IMF):

    Germany $56k
    UK $55k
    France $47k
    Italy $41k
    Spain $36k
    Czechia $33k
    Slovakia $27k
    Poland $27k
    Hungary $25k
    Romania $21k
    Bulgaria $19k

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)_per_capita

    Alternatively, median wealth per adult 2024:

    UK $164k
    France $141k
    Italy $114k
    Spain $111k
    Germany $67k
    Slovakia $41k
    Hungary $26k
    Czechia $24k
    Bulgaria $23k
    Romania $22k
    Poland $20k

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_wealth_per_adult
    I don’t quite buy these figures. France looks, feels, seems to be richer than the UK - not vastly, but enough that you sense it. Likewise Germany

    And I’ve travelled everywhere in France - not just nice places

    Am I suffering some optical illusion because France is more beautiful and spacious, and maintains the urban realm much better; or are the stats somehow deceptive?

    Genuine question
    It's difference between GDP and living standards. The economic right enjoy quoting GDP, but it's on certain measure of living standards that some parts of Eastern Europe are set to overtake the UK soon, not GDP.
    Many already well ahead.
    The problem with the UK numbers is that they're pulled down by drunken, feckless Scots.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 73,884
    Scott_xP said:

    viewcode said:

    "Walking with Dinosaurs 2025" is on iPlayer

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m0024qbn

    I see they are remaking Jurassic Park. Again. How many times can they reanimate the same strands of DNA...
    The more they do, the more they compromise on the eggsellence.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 27,685
    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    HYUFD said:

    Given the MoreinCommon poll has a Boris led Conservatives retaking the lead on 26% to 23% for Reform and 22% for Labour you would expect him to not only win any by election he fights in a Tory held seat but also to increase the Conservative majority.

    However I cannot see him becoming a contender for the leadership before he is back in Parliament. If Kemi lost a VONC next autumn and was replaced by Cleverly or Jenrick they would see themselves as having that mandate not Boris to lead the party until the next GE

    The tories need Johnson to survive. We'll see if they have the will and guile to engineer it.
    I think you are right.

    Declaration: I am no fan of Boris and voted for Hunt against him for leader. I think I was right to at the time, and I certainly accept the many criticisms of Boris expressed in this thread. But what's the alternative? PM Farage?

    So far as BJ is concerned, he does have a few good characteristics.

    1. I don't believe he is personally prejudiced or racialist
    2. He has been absolutely solid on Ukraine and a great friend to President Zelenskyy

    These are things I care about. And can you say the same for Farage and Reform? I don't think so.

    So, if you don't want to see the British Right-of-Centre go the same way as the US, then Boris may be the only realistic solution. Fight fire with fire when it comes to competing with Farage. Do what Farage least wants to happen - the re-emergence of Boris as a competitor. Throw over the card table.

    Hardly ideal. But there we are. Pragmatism is the British way, after all.

    Boris coming back would be the end of Britain as a serious country.
    Britain is a serious country?
    Well yes quite.
    We are falling well behind now.
    Bucharest in Romania is as rich as Yorkshire now.
    Take London and the SE away and we are basically eastern european standards of living
    Yet there are thousands of eastern Europeans who live in Yorkshire and near zero Yorkshiremen who live in eastern Europe.

    Not to mention that London has a lower standard of living than Yorkshire:

    https://www.thetimes.com/comment/columnists/article/does-living-and-working-in-london-give-you-a-wealthier-lifestyle-c2fwsvxfl
    Those eastern europeans came when eastern europe was substantially poorer.
    And if free movement between the EU and the UK was reintroduced we all know which way the flow would be.

    Partly because what you claimed previously is bollox:

    GDP per capita 2025 (IMF):

    Germany $56k
    UK $55k
    France $47k
    Italy $41k
    Spain $36k
    Czechia $33k
    Slovakia $27k
    Poland $27k
    Hungary $25k
    Romania $21k
    Bulgaria $19k

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)_per_capita

    Alternatively, median wealth per adult 2024:

    UK $164k
    France $141k
    Italy $114k
    Spain $111k
    Germany $67k
    Slovakia $41k
    Hungary $26k
    Czechia $24k
    Bulgaria $23k
    Romania $22k
    Poland $20k

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_wealth_per_adult
    I find these sort of charts incredibly annoying because they are misleading, gdp per capita is a useful measure for individual countries to use to see if on the whole they are getting better. Between countries however I think they are actually not only useless but detrimental.

    My reasoning for this is that is for instance you use the basket of goods we use to calculate cpih you may well find

    Country A gdp per capita 50000$ basket of goods value = 1000$
    Country B gdp per capita 100000$ basket of goods value = 3000$

    So by purely gdp per capita measures people in country B are twice as well off whereas in reality because they have a cost of living 3 times higher

    Therefore for how far the working wage goes

    Country A realistically is 50
    Country B realistically is 33.33
    Is there a gap in the market for PPP adjusted GDP per capita?
    https://statisticstimes.com/economy/european-countries-by-gdp-per-capita.php

    Has a PPP adjusted table -

    PPP Adjusted GDP per Capita for European Countries (2025)

    Country GDP per Capita (PPP, Int. $)
    Luxembourg154,915
    Ireland131,548
    Norway106,540
    Switzerland98,145
    Denmark85,789
    Netherlands83,823
    San Marino82,579
    Iceland80,318
    Sweden74,143
    Austria74,976
    Belgium75,187
    Malta75,822
    Germany72,660
    Finland67,074
    France67,658
    United Kingdom64,384
    Italy62,603
    Slovenia58,153
    Spain56,659
    Lithuania55,995
    Czech Republic59,205
    Cyprus59,858
    Estonia49,697
    Portugal51,257
    Poland54,498
    Slovakia47,439
    Romania49,944
    Hungary49,147
    Latvia45,447
    Croatia51,224
    Greece43,801
    Bulgaria41,506
    Montenegro33,620
    Belarus33,603
    Serbia30,909
    North Macedonia28,720
    Albania22,730
    Bosnia and Herzegovina22,611
    Moldova19,909
    Ukraine20,757
    Kosovo17,835
    Ah. Just catching up with the thread

    That matches the “feel” of what I experience when abroad. France is slightly richer than us, Germany notably richer

    The tax havens at the top are clear distortions, however
    That's because a lot of the wealth doesn't accrue to the locals. If you look at *most* countries, then biggest component of GDP is wages. If you look at Ireland or Malta, a disproportionate amount is corporate profits.

    So, GDP per capita (less corporate profits) adjusted for PPP is probably the best rough and ready measure.

    GDP per capita can hide a lot inequality though.

    Consumption per capita reduces these differences to give a better idea of the median situation.

    Although that can be affected if countries over or under consumer.
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 10,080
    France has better infrastructure, amenities, cultural life in its broadcasting and media, and collective social life.

    It has very bad polarisation between ethnic groups, though, worse than the UK. It's ghettos are much more deprived, but its rural, provincial and post-industrial towns are also much less deprived, than ours.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 44,310
    rcs1000 said:

    malcolmg said:

    Leon said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    HYUFD said:

    Given the MoreinCommon poll has a Boris led Conservatives retaking the lead on 26% to 23% for Reform and 22% for Labour you would expect him to not only win any by election he fights in a Tory held seat but also to increase the Conservative majority.

    However I cannot see him becoming a contender for the leadership before he is back in Parliament. If Kemi lost a VONC next autumn and was replaced by Cleverly or Jenrick they would see themselves as having that mandate not Boris to lead the party until the next GE

    The tories need Johnson to survive. We'll see if they have the will and guile to engineer it.
    I think you are right.

    Declaration: I am no fan of Boris and voted for Hunt against him for leader. I think I was right to at the time, and I certainly accept the many criticisms of Boris expressed in this thread. But what's the alternative? PM Farage?

    So far as BJ is concerned, he does have a few good characteristics.

    1. I don't believe he is personally prejudiced or racialist
    2. He has been absolutely solid on Ukraine and a great friend to President Zelenskyy

    These are things I care about. And can you say the same for Farage and Reform? I don't think so.

    So, if you don't want to see the British Right-of-Centre go the same way as the US, then Boris may be the only realistic solution. Fight fire with fire when it comes to competing with Farage. Do what Farage least wants to happen - the re-emergence of Boris as a competitor. Throw over the card table.

    Hardly ideal. But there we are. Pragmatism is the British way, after all.

    Boris coming back would be the end of Britain as a serious country.
    Britain is a serious country?
    Well yes quite.
    We are falling well behind now.
    Bucharest in Romania is as rich as Yorkshire now.
    Take London and the SE away and we are basically eastern european standards of living
    Yet there are thousands of eastern Europeans who live in Yorkshire and near zero Yorkshiremen who live in eastern Europe.

    Not to mention that London has a lower standard of living than Yorkshire:

    https://www.thetimes.com/comment/columnists/article/does-living-and-working-in-london-give-you-a-wealthier-lifestyle-c2fwsvxfl
    Those eastern europeans came when eastern europe was substantially poorer.
    And if free movement between the EU and the UK was reintroduced we all know which way the flow would be.

    Partly because what you claimed previously is bollox:

    GDP per capita 2025 (IMF):

    Germany $56k
    UK $55k
    France $47k
    Italy $41k
    Spain $36k
    Czechia $33k
    Slovakia $27k
    Poland $27k
    Hungary $25k
    Romania $21k
    Bulgaria $19k

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)_per_capita

    Alternatively, median wealth per adult 2024:

    UK $164k
    France $141k
    Italy $114k
    Spain $111k
    Germany $67k
    Slovakia $41k
    Hungary $26k
    Czechia $24k
    Bulgaria $23k
    Romania $22k
    Poland $20k

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_wealth_per_adult
    I don’t quite buy these figures. France looks, feels, seems to be richer than the UK - not vastly, but enough that you sense it. Likewise Germany

    And I’ve travelled everywhere in France - not just nice places

    Am I suffering some optical illusion because France is more beautiful and spacious, and maintains the urban realm much better; or are the stats somehow deceptive?

    Genuine question
    It's difference between GDP and living standards. The economic right enjoy quoting GDP, but it's on certain measure of living standards that some parts of Eastern Europe are set to overtake the UK soon, not GDP.
    Many already well ahead.
    The problem with the UK numbers is that they're pulled down by drunken, feckless Scots.
    You would be in even bigger doodoo without us for sure.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 27,685
    malcolmg said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    HYUFD said:

    Given the MoreinCommon poll has a Boris led Conservatives retaking the lead on 26% to 23% for Reform and 22% for Labour you would expect him to not only win any by election he fights in a Tory held seat but also to increase the Conservative majority.

    However I cannot see him becoming a contender for the leadership before he is back in Parliament. If Kemi lost a VONC next autumn and was replaced by Cleverly or Jenrick they would see themselves as having that mandate not Boris to lead the party until the next GE

    The tories need Johnson to survive. We'll see if they have the will and guile to engineer it.
    I think you are right.

    Declaration: I am no fan of Boris and voted for Hunt against him for leader. I think I was right to at the time, and I certainly accept the many criticisms of Boris expressed in this thread. But what's the alternative? PM Farage?

    So far as BJ is concerned, he does have a few good characteristics.

    1. I don't believe he is personally prejudiced or racialist
    2. He has been absolutely solid on Ukraine and a great friend to President Zelenskyy

    These are things I care about. And can you say the same for Farage and Reform? I don't think so.

    So, if you don't want to see the British Right-of-Centre go the same way as the US, then Boris may be the only realistic solution. Fight fire with fire when it comes to competing with Farage. Do what Farage least wants to happen - the re-emergence of Boris as a competitor. Throw over the card table.

    Hardly ideal. But there we are. Pragmatism is the British way, after all.

    Boris coming back would be the end of Britain as a serious country.
    Britain is a serious country?
    Well yes quite.
    We are falling well behind now.
    Bucharest in Romania is as rich as Yorkshire now.
    Take London and the SE away and we are basically eastern european standards of living
    Yet there are thousands of eastern Europeans who live in Yorkshire and near zero Yorkshiremen who live in eastern Europe.

    Not to mention that London has a lower standard of living than Yorkshire:

    https://www.thetimes.com/comment/columnists/article/does-living-and-working-in-london-give-you-a-wealthier-lifestyle-c2fwsvxfl
    Those eastern europeans came when eastern europe was substantially poorer.
    And if free movement between the EU and the UK was reintroduced we all know which way the flow would be.

    Partly because what you claimed previously is bollox:

    GDP per capita 2025 (IMF):

    Germany $56k
    UK $55k
    France $47k
    Italy $41k
    Spain $36k
    Czechia $33k
    Slovakia $27k
    Poland $27k
    Hungary $25k
    Romania $21k
    Bulgaria $19k

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)_per_capita

    Alternatively, median wealth per adult 2024:

    UK $164k
    France $141k
    Italy $114k
    Spain $111k
    Germany $67k
    Slovakia $41k
    Hungary $26k
    Czechia $24k
    Bulgaria $23k
    Romania $22k
    Poland $20k

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_wealth_per_adult
    How about cost of living, most of the eastern european countries you get a pint for a pound compared to the Dick Turpin rates here.
    Well that's what happens if you frequent the posho places of Ayrshire.

    You can get a pint for two quid at Wetherspoons or £1 for a 500ml bottle at most supermarkets.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 54,326
    Scott_xP said:

    viewcode said:

    "Walking with Dinosaurs 2025" is on iPlayer

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m0024qbn

    I see they are remaking Jurassic Park. Again. How many times can they reanimate the same strands of DNA...
    “Your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn’t stop to think if they should.”
  • LeonLeon Posts: 61,363

    Leon said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    HYUFD said:

    Given the MoreinCommon poll has a Boris led Conservatives retaking the lead on 26% to 23% for Reform and 22% for Labour you would expect him to not only win any by election he fights in a Tory held seat but also to increase the Conservative majority.

    However I cannot see him becoming a contender for the leadership before he is back in Parliament. If Kemi lost a VONC next autumn and was replaced by Cleverly or Jenrick they would see themselves as having that mandate not Boris to lead the party until the next GE

    The tories need Johnson to survive. We'll see if they have the will and guile to engineer it.
    I think you are right.

    Declaration: I am no fan of Boris and voted for Hunt against him for leader. I think I was right to at the time, and I certainly accept the many criticisms of Boris expressed in this thread. But what's the alternative? PM Farage?

    So far as BJ is concerned, he does have a few good characteristics.

    1. I don't believe he is personally prejudiced or racialist
    2. He has been absolutely solid on Ukraine and a great friend to President Zelenskyy

    These are things I care about. And can you say the same for Farage and Reform? I don't think so.

    So, if you don't want to see the British Right-of-Centre go the same way as the US, then Boris may be the only realistic solution. Fight fire with fire when it comes to competing with Farage. Do what Farage least wants to happen - the re-emergence of Boris as a competitor. Throw over the card table.

    Hardly ideal. But there we are. Pragmatism is the British way, after all.

    Boris coming back would be the end of Britain as a serious country.
    Britain is a serious country?
    Well yes quite.
    We are falling well behind now.
    Bucharest in Romania is as rich as Yorkshire now.
    Take London and the SE away and we are basically eastern european standards of living
    Yet there are thousands of eastern Europeans who live in Yorkshire and near zero Yorkshiremen who live in eastern Europe.

    Not to mention that London has a lower standard of living than Yorkshire:

    https://www.thetimes.com/comment/columnists/article/does-living-and-working-in-london-give-you-a-wealthier-lifestyle-c2fwsvxfl
    Those eastern europeans came when eastern europe was substantially poorer.
    And if free movement between the EU and the UK was reintroduced we all know which way the flow would be.

    Partly because what you claimed previously is bollox:

    GDP per capita 2025 (IMF):

    Germany $56k
    UK $55k
    France $47k
    Italy $41k
    Spain $36k
    Czechia $33k
    Slovakia $27k
    Poland $27k
    Hungary $25k
    Romania $21k
    Bulgaria $19k

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)_per_capita

    Alternatively, median wealth per adult 2024:

    UK $164k
    France $141k
    Italy $114k
    Spain $111k
    Germany $67k
    Slovakia $41k
    Hungary $26k
    Czechia $24k
    Bulgaria $23k
    Romania $22k
    Poland $20k

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_wealth_per_adult
    I don’t quite buy these figures. France looks, feels, seems to be richer than the UK - not vastly, but enough that you sense it. Likewise Germany

    And I’ve travelled everywhere in France - not just nice places

    Am I suffering some optical illusion because France is more beautiful and spacious, and maintains the urban realm much better; or are the stats somehow deceptive?

    Genuine question
    Travel can give a partial picture but never a full one and you really haven't travelled everywhere in France.

    You can drive around a district in this country and get an impression of its affluence and living standards, you can then go a different route through the same district and get a very different impression.

    It might even be weather related - people tend to go on holiday in summer and travel in good weather. The same places might look a lot less beautiful on a rainy day in November.

    And travel through a place isn't the same as living there either.

    There are also non-economic issues - GDP is not the same as living standards which are not the same as quality of life.

    RFK's famous speech:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3FAmr1la6w0

    As a practical example when they shut the pits they reduced GDP and the living standards of some but it improved my quality of life by reducing air pollution and creating lots of new country parks for me to walk though.

    This just isn’t true. I spent eight weeks in France last year. And I deliberately went to some of the poorest places - in central Brittany, depressed towns on the coasts, forgotten chunks of the “empty diagonal”, post industrial places in the north and east. Burbs of Marseilles

    Also I went to many lovely places, because France is blessed with many of those

    Two days ago I accidentally drove through ONE distant suburb of Leeds. Tingley. It was more depressingly run down and grotty - burned out houses on the Main Street - than any single place I saw in France in two months

    And I’ve been researching and it seems Tingley isn’t even regarded as the worst bit of Leeds. Just “a bit rough but there are plenty worse”

    I don’t like reporting this, but it is what I see
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 54,326
    Andy_JS said:

    "Fans of viral Labubu dolls have reacted angrily online after its maker pulled the toys from all UK stores following reports of customers fighting over them.

    Pop Mart, which makes the monster bag charms, told the BBC it had paused selling them in all 16 of its shops until June to "prevent any potential safety issues".

    Labubu fan Victoria Calvert said she witnessed chaos in the Stratford store in London. "It was just getting ridiculous to be in that situation where people were fighting and shouting and you felt scared.""

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cvgvwvvlnv3o

    Are people getting more stupid?

    Never even heard of Labubu until just now!
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 45,464

    malcolmg said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    HYUFD said:

    Given the MoreinCommon poll has a Boris led Conservatives retaking the lead on 26% to 23% for Reform and 22% for Labour you would expect him to not only win any by election he fights in a Tory held seat but also to increase the Conservative majority.

    However I cannot see him becoming a contender for the leadership before he is back in Parliament. If Kemi lost a VONC next autumn and was replaced by Cleverly or Jenrick they would see themselves as having that mandate not Boris to lead the party until the next GE

    The tories need Johnson to survive. We'll see if they have the will and guile to engineer it.
    I think you are right.

    Declaration: I am no fan of Boris and voted for Hunt against him for leader. I think I was right to at the time, and I certainly accept the many criticisms of Boris expressed in this thread. But what's the alternative? PM Farage?

    So far as BJ is concerned, he does have a few good characteristics.

    1. I don't believe he is personally prejudiced or racialist
    2. He has been absolutely solid on Ukraine and a great friend to President Zelenskyy

    These are things I care about. And can you say the same for Farage and Reform? I don't think so.

    So, if you don't want to see the British Right-of-Centre go the same way as the US, then Boris may be the only realistic solution. Fight fire with fire when it comes to competing with Farage. Do what Farage least wants to happen - the re-emergence of Boris as a competitor. Throw over the card table.

    Hardly ideal. But there we are. Pragmatism is the British way, after all.

    Boris coming back would be the end of Britain as a serious country.
    Britain is a serious country?
    Well yes quite.
    We are falling well behind now.
    Bucharest in Romania is as rich as Yorkshire now.
    Take London and the SE away and we are basically eastern european standards of living
    Yet there are thousands of eastern Europeans who live in Yorkshire and near zero Yorkshiremen who live in eastern Europe.

    Not to mention that London has a lower standard of living than Yorkshire:

    https://www.thetimes.com/comment/columnists/article/does-living-and-working-in-london-give-you-a-wealthier-lifestyle-c2fwsvxfl
    Those eastern europeans came when eastern europe was substantially poorer.
    And if free movement between the EU and the UK was reintroduced we all know which way the flow would be.

    Partly because what you claimed previously is bollox:

    GDP per capita 2025 (IMF):

    Germany $56k
    UK $55k
    France $47k
    Italy $41k
    Spain $36k
    Czechia $33k
    Slovakia $27k
    Poland $27k
    Hungary $25k
    Romania $21k
    Bulgaria $19k

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)_per_capita

    Alternatively, median wealth per adult 2024:

    UK $164k
    France $141k
    Italy $114k
    Spain $111k
    Germany $67k
    Slovakia $41k
    Hungary $26k
    Czechia $24k
    Bulgaria $23k
    Romania $22k
    Poland $20k

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_wealth_per_adult
    How about cost of living, most of the eastern european countries you get a pint for a pound compared to the Dick Turpin rates here.
    Well that's what happens if you frequent the posho places of Ayrshire.

    You can get a pint for two quid at Wetherspoons or £1 for a 500ml bottle at most supermarkets.
    £1.47 on Mondays.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 27,685

    France has better infrastructure, amenities, cultural life in its broadcasting and media, and collective social life.

    It has very bad polarisation between ethnic groups, though, worse than the UK. It's ghettos are much more deprived, but its rural, provincial and post-industrial towns are also much less deprived, than ours.

    You can find deprivation of various types in France and affluence of various types in France.

    And similarly in this country.

    There are lots of differences even down to the local level.

    In any case, living in somewhere 'deprived' also tends to be cheap. The thing to do is to live in a nice part of a deprived area which has good communications and nice countryside.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 54,833

    malcolmg said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    HYUFD said:

    Given the MoreinCommon poll has a Boris led Conservatives retaking the lead on 26% to 23% for Reform and 22% for Labour you would expect him to not only win any by election he fights in a Tory held seat but also to increase the Conservative majority.

    However I cannot see him becoming a contender for the leadership before he is back in Parliament. If Kemi lost a VONC next autumn and was replaced by Cleverly or Jenrick they would see themselves as having that mandate not Boris to lead the party until the next GE

    The tories need Johnson to survive. We'll see if they have the will and guile to engineer it.
    I think you are right.

    Declaration: I am no fan of Boris and voted for Hunt against him for leader. I think I was right to at the time, and I certainly accept the many criticisms of Boris expressed in this thread. But what's the alternative? PM Farage?

    So far as BJ is concerned, he does have a few good characteristics.

    1. I don't believe he is personally prejudiced or racialist
    2. He has been absolutely solid on Ukraine and a great friend to President Zelenskyy

    These are things I care about. And can you say the same for Farage and Reform? I don't think so.

    So, if you don't want to see the British Right-of-Centre go the same way as the US, then Boris may be the only realistic solution. Fight fire with fire when it comes to competing with Farage. Do what Farage least wants to happen - the re-emergence of Boris as a competitor. Throw over the card table.

    Hardly ideal. But there we are. Pragmatism is the British way, after all.

    Boris coming back would be the end of Britain as a serious country.
    Britain is a serious country?
    Well yes quite.
    We are falling well behind now.
    Bucharest in Romania is as rich as Yorkshire now.
    Take London and the SE away and we are basically eastern european standards of living
    Yet there are thousands of eastern Europeans who live in Yorkshire and near zero Yorkshiremen who live in eastern Europe.

    Not to mention that London has a lower standard of living than Yorkshire:

    https://www.thetimes.com/comment/columnists/article/does-living-and-working-in-london-give-you-a-wealthier-lifestyle-c2fwsvxfl
    Those eastern europeans came when eastern europe was substantially poorer.
    And if free movement between the EU and the UK was reintroduced we all know which way the flow would be.

    Partly because what you claimed previously is bollox:

    GDP per capita 2025 (IMF):

    Germany $56k
    UK $55k
    France $47k
    Italy $41k
    Spain $36k
    Czechia $33k
    Slovakia $27k
    Poland $27k
    Hungary $25k
    Romania $21k
    Bulgaria $19k

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)_per_capita

    Alternatively, median wealth per adult 2024:

    UK $164k
    France $141k
    Italy $114k
    Spain $111k
    Germany $67k
    Slovakia $41k
    Hungary $26k
    Czechia $24k
    Bulgaria $23k
    Romania $22k
    Poland $20k

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_wealth_per_adult
    How about cost of living, most of the eastern european countries you get a pint for a pound compared to the Dick Turpin rates here.
    Well that's what happens if you frequent the posho places of Ayrshire.

    You can get a pint for two quid at Wetherspoons or £1 for a 500ml bottle at most supermarkets.
    Bar prices are a function of the wealth of the country, in general. Because the hospitality trade is dominated by the cost of labour.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 61,363

    France has better infrastructure, amenities, cultural life in its broadcasting and media, and collective social life.

    It has very bad polarisation between ethnic groups, though, worse than the UK. It's ghettos are much more deprived, but its rural, provincial and post-industrial towns are also much less deprived, than ours.

    You can find deprivation of various types in France and affluence of various types in France.

    And similarly in this country.

    There are lots of differences even down to the local level.

    In any case, living in somewhere 'deprived' also tends to be cheap. The thing to do is to live in a nice part of a deprived area which has good communications and nice countryside.
    Do you ever travel? You never mention it, so I’m not convinced of your foreign experiences

    If you are secretly PB’s Bruce Chatwin, I apologise
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 27,685
    kinabalu said:

    malcolmg said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    HYUFD said:

    Given the MoreinCommon poll has a Boris led Conservatives retaking the lead on 26% to 23% for Reform and 22% for Labour you would expect him to not only win any by election he fights in a Tory held seat but also to increase the Conservative majority.

    However I cannot see him becoming a contender for the leadership before he is back in Parliament. If Kemi lost a VONC next autumn and was replaced by Cleverly or Jenrick they would see themselves as having that mandate not Boris to lead the party until the next GE

    The tories need Johnson to survive. We'll see if they have the will and guile to engineer it.
    I think you are right.

    Declaration: I am no fan of Boris and voted for Hunt against him for leader. I think I was right to at the time, and I certainly accept the many criticisms of Boris expressed in this thread. But what's the alternative? PM Farage?

    So far as BJ is concerned, he does have a few good characteristics.

    1. I don't believe he is personally prejudiced or racialist
    2. He has been absolutely solid on Ukraine and a great friend to President Zelenskyy

    These are things I care about. And can you say the same for Farage and Reform? I don't think so.

    So, if you don't want to see the British Right-of-Centre go the same way as the US, then Boris may be the only realistic solution. Fight fire with fire when it comes to competing with Farage. Do what Farage least wants to happen - the re-emergence of Boris as a competitor. Throw over the card table.

    Hardly ideal. But there we are. Pragmatism is the British way, after all.

    Boris coming back would be the end of Britain as a serious country.
    Britain is a serious country?
    Well yes quite.
    We are falling well behind now.
    Bucharest in Romania is as rich as Yorkshire now.
    Take London and the SE away and we are basically eastern european standards of living
    Yet there are thousands of eastern Europeans who live in Yorkshire and near zero Yorkshiremen who live in eastern Europe.

    Not to mention that London has a lower standard of living than Yorkshire:

    https://www.thetimes.com/comment/columnists/article/does-living-and-working-in-london-give-you-a-wealthier-lifestyle-c2fwsvxfl
    Those eastern europeans came when eastern europe was substantially poorer.
    And if free movement between the EU and the UK was reintroduced we all know which way the flow would be.

    Partly because what you claimed previously is bollox:

    GDP per capita 2025 (IMF):

    Germany $56k
    UK $55k
    France $47k
    Italy $41k
    Spain $36k
    Czechia $33k
    Slovakia $27k
    Poland $27k
    Hungary $25k
    Romania $21k
    Bulgaria $19k

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)_per_capita

    Alternatively, median wealth per adult 2024:

    UK $164k
    France $141k
    Italy $114k
    Spain $111k
    Germany $67k
    Slovakia $41k
    Hungary $26k
    Czechia $24k
    Bulgaria $23k
    Romania $22k
    Poland $20k

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_wealth_per_adult
    How about cost of living, most of the eastern european countries you get a pint for a pound compared to the Dick Turpin rates here.
    Well that's what happens if you frequent the posho places of Ayrshire.

    You can get a pint for two quid at Wetherspoons or £1 for a 500ml bottle at most supermarkets.
    £1.47 on Mondays.
    Even in Hampstead ???
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 14,460

    malcolmg said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    HYUFD said:

    Given the MoreinCommon poll has a Boris led Conservatives retaking the lead on 26% to 23% for Reform and 22% for Labour you would expect him to not only win any by election he fights in a Tory held seat but also to increase the Conservative majority.

    However I cannot see him becoming a contender for the leadership before he is back in Parliament. If Kemi lost a VONC next autumn and was replaced by Cleverly or Jenrick they would see themselves as having that mandate not Boris to lead the party until the next GE

    The tories need Johnson to survive. We'll see if they have the will and guile to engineer it.
    I think you are right.

    Declaration: I am no fan of Boris and voted for Hunt against him for leader. I think I was right to at the time, and I certainly accept the many criticisms of Boris expressed in this thread. But what's the alternative? PM Farage?

    So far as BJ is concerned, he does have a few good characteristics.

    1. I don't believe he is personally prejudiced or racialist
    2. He has been absolutely solid on Ukraine and a great friend to President Zelenskyy

    These are things I care about. And can you say the same for Farage and Reform? I don't think so.

    So, if you don't want to see the British Right-of-Centre go the same way as the US, then Boris may be the only realistic solution. Fight fire with fire when it comes to competing with Farage. Do what Farage least wants to happen - the re-emergence of Boris as a competitor. Throw over the card table.

    Hardly ideal. But there we are. Pragmatism is the British way, after all.

    Boris coming back would be the end of Britain as a serious country.
    Britain is a serious country?
    Well yes quite.
    We are falling well behind now.
    Bucharest in Romania is as rich as Yorkshire now.
    Take London and the SE away and we are basically eastern european standards of living
    Yet there are thousands of eastern Europeans who live in Yorkshire and near zero Yorkshiremen who live in eastern Europe.

    Not to mention that London has a lower standard of living than Yorkshire:

    https://www.thetimes.com/comment/columnists/article/does-living-and-working-in-london-give-you-a-wealthier-lifestyle-c2fwsvxfl
    Those eastern europeans came when eastern europe was substantially poorer.
    And if free movement between the EU and the UK was reintroduced we all know which way the flow would be.

    Partly because what you claimed previously is bollox:

    GDP per capita 2025 (IMF):

    Germany $56k
    UK $55k
    France $47k
    Italy $41k
    Spain $36k
    Czechia $33k
    Slovakia $27k
    Poland $27k
    Hungary $25k
    Romania $21k
    Bulgaria $19k

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)_per_capita

    Alternatively, median wealth per adult 2024:

    UK $164k
    France $141k
    Italy $114k
    Spain $111k
    Germany $67k
    Slovakia $41k
    Hungary $26k
    Czechia $24k
    Bulgaria $23k
    Romania $22k
    Poland $20k

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_wealth_per_adult
    How about cost of living, most of the eastern european countries you get a pint for a pound compared to the Dick Turpin rates here.
    Well that's what happens if you frequent the posho places of Ayrshire.

    You can get a pint for two quid at Wetherspoons or £1 for a 500ml bottle at most supermarkets.
    Lidl's zero alcohol version is 55p (just gone up) for 330ml, which is 83p for 500ml, 94p a pint. IMHO it's not bad at all.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 122,196
    AnneJGP said:

    Good evening, everyone.

    I have read the thread header and still don't understand the headline.

    It's a subtle reference to this.

    Boris Johnson brands Starmer ‘the orange ball-chewing gimp of Brussels’

    Former PM criticises ‘appalling sell-out of a deal’ with EU


    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2025/05/19/boris-johnson-starmer-orange-ball-chewing-gimp-brussels/
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 30,950
    Leon said:

    And I agree with you, France and Germany clearly have higher living standards than the modern UK, post-1980's.

    I don’t think it’s post-1980s

    It’s happened in the last 20 years. Up until the GFC Britain was doing well, overtaking many EU countries. After that we flatlined - understandably, our biggest industry was walloped

    Austerity made it worse. Brexit didn’t help. Covid dealt a fearsome blow to our towns. On top of that, mass migration has been a disaster for the UK (and other European countries)

    The terrifying thing is that Britain’s decline feels like it is speeding up. But that is just “a feel”. I hope I’m wrong

    Housing costs perhaps? The French have more disposable income because less goes on keeping a roof over their head.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 59,983

    France has better infrastructure, amenities, cultural life in its broadcasting and media, and collective social life.

    It has very bad polarisation between ethnic groups, though, worse than the UK. It's ghettos are much more deprived, but its rural, provincial and post-industrial towns are also much less deprived, than ours.

    That's fair:

    I would also note that it's high social charges mean that those with low skills are essentially unemployable. And - while its primary and secondary education is very good - its universities are pretty average.

    On the other hand, if you have an average salary, and live in an average town, then your quality of life is probably going to be meaningfully better than in the UK.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 45,464
    Touch of petrichor around at the moment. Not sure how I feel about it.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 27,685
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    HYUFD said:

    Given the MoreinCommon poll has a Boris led Conservatives retaking the lead on 26% to 23% for Reform and 22% for Labour you would expect him to not only win any by election he fights in a Tory held seat but also to increase the Conservative majority.

    However I cannot see him becoming a contender for the leadership before he is back in Parliament. If Kemi lost a VONC next autumn and was replaced by Cleverly or Jenrick they would see themselves as having that mandate not Boris to lead the party until the next GE

    The tories need Johnson to survive. We'll see if they have the will and guile to engineer it.
    I think you are right.

    Declaration: I am no fan of Boris and voted for Hunt against him for leader. I think I was right to at the time, and I certainly accept the many criticisms of Boris expressed in this thread. But what's the alternative? PM Farage?

    So far as BJ is concerned, he does have a few good characteristics.

    1. I don't believe he is personally prejudiced or racialist
    2. He has been absolutely solid on Ukraine and a great friend to President Zelenskyy

    These are things I care about. And can you say the same for Farage and Reform? I don't think so.

    So, if you don't want to see the British Right-of-Centre go the same way as the US, then Boris may be the only realistic solution. Fight fire with fire when it comes to competing with Farage. Do what Farage least wants to happen - the re-emergence of Boris as a competitor. Throw over the card table.

    Hardly ideal. But there we are. Pragmatism is the British way, after all.

    Boris coming back would be the end of Britain as a serious country.
    Britain is a serious country?
    Well yes quite.
    We are falling well behind now.
    Bucharest in Romania is as rich as Yorkshire now.
    Take London and the SE away and we are basically eastern european standards of living
    Yet there are thousands of eastern Europeans who live in Yorkshire and near zero Yorkshiremen who live in eastern Europe.

    Not to mention that London has a lower standard of living than Yorkshire:

    https://www.thetimes.com/comment/columnists/article/does-living-and-working-in-london-give-you-a-wealthier-lifestyle-c2fwsvxfl
    Those eastern europeans came when eastern europe was substantially poorer.
    And if free movement between the EU and the UK was reintroduced we all know which way the flow would be.

    Partly because what you claimed previously is bollox:

    GDP per capita 2025 (IMF):

    Germany $56k
    UK $55k
    France $47k
    Italy $41k
    Spain $36k
    Czechia $33k
    Slovakia $27k
    Poland $27k
    Hungary $25k
    Romania $21k
    Bulgaria $19k

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)_per_capita

    Alternatively, median wealth per adult 2024:

    UK $164k
    France $141k
    Italy $114k
    Spain $111k
    Germany $67k
    Slovakia $41k
    Hungary $26k
    Czechia $24k
    Bulgaria $23k
    Romania $22k
    Poland $20k

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_wealth_per_adult
    I don’t quite buy these figures. France looks, feels, seems to be richer than the UK - not vastly, but enough that you sense it. Likewise Germany

    And I’ve travelled everywhere in France - not just nice places

    Am I suffering some optical illusion because France is more beautiful and spacious, and maintains the urban realm much better; or are the stats somehow deceptive?

    Genuine question
    Travel can give a partial picture but never a full one and you really haven't travelled everywhere in France.

    You can drive around a district in this country and get an impression of its affluence and living standards, you can then go a different route through the same district and get a very different impression.

    It might even be weather related - people tend to go on holiday in summer and travel in good weather. The same places might look a lot less beautiful on a rainy day in November.

    And travel through a place isn't the same as living there either.

    There are also non-economic issues - GDP is not the same as living standards which are not the same as quality of life.

    RFK's famous speech:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3FAmr1la6w0

    As a practical example when they shut the pits they reduced GDP and the living standards of some but it improved my quality of life by reducing air pollution and creating lots of new country parks for me to walk though.

    This just isn’t true. I spent eight weeks in France last year. And I deliberately went to some of the poorest places - in central Brittany, depressed towns on the coasts, forgotten chunks of the “empty diagonal”, post industrial places in the north and east. Burbs of Marseilles

    Also I went to many lovely places, because France is blessed with many of those

    Two days ago I accidentally drove through ONE distant suburb of Leeds. Tingley. It was more depressingly run down and grotty - burned out houses on the Main Street - than any single place I saw in France in two months

    And I’ve been researching and it seems Tingley isn’t even regarded as the worst bit of Leeds. Just “a bit rough but there are plenty worse”

    I don’t like reporting this, but it is what I see
    Thanks for proving my point.

    You think a bit of driving around makes you an expert on everything in a country.

    It really, really doesn't.

    Go and live in a place for a year and then move to somewhere near which is either much more or much less affluent and experience living there for a year and understand what the differences are.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 59,983
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    HYUFD said:

    Given the MoreinCommon poll has a Boris led Conservatives retaking the lead on 26% to 23% for Reform and 22% for Labour you would expect him to not only win any by election he fights in a Tory held seat but also to increase the Conservative majority.

    However I cannot see him becoming a contender for the leadership before he is back in Parliament. If Kemi lost a VONC next autumn and was replaced by Cleverly or Jenrick they would see themselves as having that mandate not Boris to lead the party until the next GE

    The tories need Johnson to survive. We'll see if they have the will and guile to engineer it.
    I think you are right.

    Declaration: I am no fan of Boris and voted for Hunt against him for leader. I think I was right to at the time, and I certainly accept the many criticisms of Boris expressed in this thread. But what's the alternative? PM Farage?

    So far as BJ is concerned, he does have a few good characteristics.

    1. I don't believe he is personally prejudiced or racialist
    2. He has been absolutely solid on Ukraine and a great friend to President Zelenskyy

    These are things I care about. And can you say the same for Farage and Reform? I don't think so.

    So, if you don't want to see the British Right-of-Centre go the same way as the US, then Boris may be the only realistic solution. Fight fire with fire when it comes to competing with Farage. Do what Farage least wants to happen - the re-emergence of Boris as a competitor. Throw over the card table.

    Hardly ideal. But there we are. Pragmatism is the British way, after all.

    Boris coming back would be the end of Britain as a serious country.
    Britain is a serious country?
    Well yes quite.
    We are falling well behind now.
    Bucharest in Romania is as rich as Yorkshire now.
    Take London and the SE away and we are basically eastern european standards of living
    Yet there are thousands of eastern Europeans who live in Yorkshire and near zero Yorkshiremen who live in eastern Europe.

    Not to mention that London has a lower standard of living than Yorkshire:

    https://www.thetimes.com/comment/columnists/article/does-living-and-working-in-london-give-you-a-wealthier-lifestyle-c2fwsvxfl
    Those eastern europeans came when eastern europe was substantially poorer.
    And if free movement between the EU and the UK was reintroduced we all know which way the flow would be.

    Partly because what you claimed previously is bollox:

    GDP per capita 2025 (IMF):

    Germany $56k
    UK $55k
    France $47k
    Italy $41k
    Spain $36k
    Czechia $33k
    Slovakia $27k
    Poland $27k
    Hungary $25k
    Romania $21k
    Bulgaria $19k

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)_per_capita

    Alternatively, median wealth per adult 2024:

    UK $164k
    France $141k
    Italy $114k
    Spain $111k
    Germany $67k
    Slovakia $41k
    Hungary $26k
    Czechia $24k
    Bulgaria $23k
    Romania $22k
    Poland $20k

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_wealth_per_adult
    I don’t quite buy these figures. France looks, feels, seems to be richer than the UK - not vastly, but enough that you sense it. Likewise Germany

    And I’ve travelled everywhere in France - not just nice places

    Am I suffering some optical illusion because France is more beautiful and spacious, and maintains the urban realm much better; or are the stats somehow deceptive?

    Genuine question
    Travel can give a partial picture but never a full one and you really haven't travelled everywhere in France.

    You can drive around a district in this country and get an impression of its affluence and living standards, you can then go a different route through the same district and get a very different impression.

    It might even be weather related - people tend to go on holiday in summer and travel in good weather. The same places might look a lot less beautiful on a rainy day in November.

    And travel through a place isn't the same as living there either.

    There are also non-economic issues - GDP is not the same as living standards which are not the same as quality of life.

    RFK's famous speech:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3FAmr1la6w0

    As a practical example when they shut the pits they reduced GDP and the living standards of some but it improved my quality of life by reducing air pollution and creating lots of new country parks for me to walk though.

    This just isn’t true. I spent eight weeks in France last year. And I deliberately went to some of the poorest places - in central Brittany, depressed towns on the coasts, forgotten chunks of the “empty diagonal”, post industrial places in the north and east. Burbs of Marseilles

    Also I went to many lovely places, because France is blessed with many of those

    Two days ago I accidentally drove through ONE distant suburb of Leeds. Tingley. It was more depressingly run down and grotty - burned out houses on the Main Street - than any single place I saw in France in two months

    And I’ve been researching and it seems Tingley isn’t even regarded as the worst bit of Leeds. Just “a bit rough but there are plenty worse”

    I don’t like reporting this, but it is what I see
    Some of the banlieues around Paris are pretty shit.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 45,464

    kinabalu said:

    malcolmg said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    HYUFD said:

    Given the MoreinCommon poll has a Boris led Conservatives retaking the lead on 26% to 23% for Reform and 22% for Labour you would expect him to not only win any by election he fights in a Tory held seat but also to increase the Conservative majority.

    However I cannot see him becoming a contender for the leadership before he is back in Parliament. If Kemi lost a VONC next autumn and was replaced by Cleverly or Jenrick they would see themselves as having that mandate not Boris to lead the party until the next GE

    The tories need Johnson to survive. We'll see if they have the will and guile to engineer it.
    I think you are right.

    Declaration: I am no fan of Boris and voted for Hunt against him for leader. I think I was right to at the time, and I certainly accept the many criticisms of Boris expressed in this thread. But what's the alternative? PM Farage?

    So far as BJ is concerned, he does have a few good characteristics.

    1. I don't believe he is personally prejudiced or racialist
    2. He has been absolutely solid on Ukraine and a great friend to President Zelenskyy

    These are things I care about. And can you say the same for Farage and Reform? I don't think so.

    So, if you don't want to see the British Right-of-Centre go the same way as the US, then Boris may be the only realistic solution. Fight fire with fire when it comes to competing with Farage. Do what Farage least wants to happen - the re-emergence of Boris as a competitor. Throw over the card table.

    Hardly ideal. But there we are. Pragmatism is the British way, after all.

    Boris coming back would be the end of Britain as a serious country.
    Britain is a serious country?
    Well yes quite.
    We are falling well behind now.
    Bucharest in Romania is as rich as Yorkshire now.
    Take London and the SE away and we are basically eastern european standards of living
    Yet there are thousands of eastern Europeans who live in Yorkshire and near zero Yorkshiremen who live in eastern Europe.

    Not to mention that London has a lower standard of living than Yorkshire:

    https://www.thetimes.com/comment/columnists/article/does-living-and-working-in-london-give-you-a-wealthier-lifestyle-c2fwsvxfl
    Those eastern europeans came when eastern europe was substantially poorer.
    And if free movement between the EU and the UK was reintroduced we all know which way the flow would be.

    Partly because what you claimed previously is bollox:

    GDP per capita 2025 (IMF):

    Germany $56k
    UK $55k
    France $47k
    Italy $41k
    Spain $36k
    Czechia $33k
    Slovakia $27k
    Poland $27k
    Hungary $25k
    Romania $21k
    Bulgaria $19k

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)_per_capita

    Alternatively, median wealth per adult 2024:

    UK $164k
    France $141k
    Italy $114k
    Spain $111k
    Germany $67k
    Slovakia $41k
    Hungary $26k
    Czechia $24k
    Bulgaria $23k
    Romania $22k
    Poland $20k

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_wealth_per_adult
    How about cost of living, most of the eastern european countries you get a pint for a pound compared to the Dick Turpin rates here.
    Well that's what happens if you frequent the posho places of Ayrshire.

    You can get a pint for two quid at Wetherspoons or £1 for a 500ml bottle at most supermarkets.
    £1.47 on Mondays.
    Even in Hampstead ???
    No, we don't have one. But there's a couple within striking distance.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 27,685

    Leon said:

    And I agree with you, France and Germany clearly have higher living standards than the modern UK, post-1980's.

    I don’t think it’s post-1980s

    It’s happened in the last 20 years. Up until the GFC Britain was doing well, overtaking many EU countries. After that we flatlined - understandably, our biggest industry was walloped

    Austerity made it worse. Brexit didn’t help. Covid dealt a fearsome blow to our towns. On top of that, mass migration has been a disaster for the UK (and other European countries)

    The terrifying thing is that Britain’s decline feels like it is speeding up. But that is just “a feel”. I hope I’m wrong

    Housing costs perhaps? The French have more disposable income because less goes on keeping a roof over their head.
    There should be a PB Law that discussions usually come back to the cost of housing.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 55,467
    kinabalu said:

    Touch of petrichor around at the moment. Not sure how I feel about it.

    It has to be hot for petrichor. This weather is just miserable.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 27,685
    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    malcolmg said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    HYUFD said:

    Given the MoreinCommon poll has a Boris led Conservatives retaking the lead on 26% to 23% for Reform and 22% for Labour you would expect him to not only win any by election he fights in a Tory held seat but also to increase the Conservative majority.

    However I cannot see him becoming a contender for the leadership before he is back in Parliament. If Kemi lost a VONC next autumn and was replaced by Cleverly or Jenrick they would see themselves as having that mandate not Boris to lead the party until the next GE

    The tories need Johnson to survive. We'll see if they have the will and guile to engineer it.
    I think you are right.

    Declaration: I am no fan of Boris and voted for Hunt against him for leader. I think I was right to at the time, and I certainly accept the many criticisms of Boris expressed in this thread. But what's the alternative? PM Farage?

    So far as BJ is concerned, he does have a few good characteristics.

    1. I don't believe he is personally prejudiced or racialist
    2. He has been absolutely solid on Ukraine and a great friend to President Zelenskyy

    These are things I care about. And can you say the same for Farage and Reform? I don't think so.

    So, if you don't want to see the British Right-of-Centre go the same way as the US, then Boris may be the only realistic solution. Fight fire with fire when it comes to competing with Farage. Do what Farage least wants to happen - the re-emergence of Boris as a competitor. Throw over the card table.

    Hardly ideal. But there we are. Pragmatism is the British way, after all.

    Boris coming back would be the end of Britain as a serious country.
    Britain is a serious country?
    Well yes quite.
    We are falling well behind now.
    Bucharest in Romania is as rich as Yorkshire now.
    Take London and the SE away and we are basically eastern european standards of living
    Yet there are thousands of eastern Europeans who live in Yorkshire and near zero Yorkshiremen who live in eastern Europe.

    Not to mention that London has a lower standard of living than Yorkshire:

    https://www.thetimes.com/comment/columnists/article/does-living-and-working-in-london-give-you-a-wealthier-lifestyle-c2fwsvxfl
    Those eastern europeans came when eastern europe was substantially poorer.
    And if free movement between the EU and the UK was reintroduced we all know which way the flow would be.

    Partly because what you claimed previously is bollox:

    GDP per capita 2025 (IMF):

    Germany $56k
    UK $55k
    France $47k
    Italy $41k
    Spain $36k
    Czechia $33k
    Slovakia $27k
    Poland $27k
    Hungary $25k
    Romania $21k
    Bulgaria $19k

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)_per_capita

    Alternatively, median wealth per adult 2024:

    UK $164k
    France $141k
    Italy $114k
    Spain $111k
    Germany $67k
    Slovakia $41k
    Hungary $26k
    Czechia $24k
    Bulgaria $23k
    Romania $22k
    Poland $20k

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_wealth_per_adult
    How about cost of living, most of the eastern european countries you get a pint for a pound compared to the Dick Turpin rates here.
    Well that's what happens if you frequent the posho places of Ayrshire.

    You can get a pint for two quid at Wetherspoons or £1 for a 500ml bottle at most supermarkets.
    £1.47 on Mondays.
    Even in Hampstead ???
    No, we don't have one. But there's a couple within striking distance.
    I remember when the Chandos used to have really cheap beer by London standards.

    Then Sam Smiths put the prices up to tourist levels.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 45,464

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    HYUFD said:

    Given the MoreinCommon poll has a Boris led Conservatives retaking the lead on 26% to 23% for Reform and 22% for Labour you would expect him to not only win any by election he fights in a Tory held seat but also to increase the Conservative majority.

    However I cannot see him becoming a contender for the leadership before he is back in Parliament. If Kemi lost a VONC next autumn and was replaced by Cleverly or Jenrick they would see themselves as having that mandate not Boris to lead the party until the next GE

    The tories need Johnson to survive. We'll see if they have the will and guile to engineer it.
    I think you are right.

    Declaration: I am no fan of Boris and voted for Hunt against him for leader. I think I was right to at the time, and I certainly accept the many criticisms of Boris expressed in this thread. But what's the alternative? PM Farage?

    So far as BJ is concerned, he does have a few good characteristics.

    1. I don't believe he is personally prejudiced or racialist
    2. He has been absolutely solid on Ukraine and a great friend to President Zelenskyy

    These are things I care about. And can you say the same for Farage and Reform? I don't think so.

    So, if you don't want to see the British Right-of-Centre go the same way as the US, then Boris may be the only realistic solution. Fight fire with fire when it comes to competing with Farage. Do what Farage least wants to happen - the re-emergence of Boris as a competitor. Throw over the card table.

    Hardly ideal. But there we are. Pragmatism is the British way, after all.

    Boris coming back would be the end of Britain as a serious country.
    Britain is a serious country?
    Well yes quite.
    We are falling well behind now.
    Bucharest in Romania is as rich as Yorkshire now.
    Take London and the SE away and we are basically eastern european standards of living
    Yet there are thousands of eastern Europeans who live in Yorkshire and near zero Yorkshiremen who live in eastern Europe.

    Not to mention that London has a lower standard of living than Yorkshire:

    https://www.thetimes.com/comment/columnists/article/does-living-and-working-in-london-give-you-a-wealthier-lifestyle-c2fwsvxfl
    Those eastern europeans came when eastern europe was substantially poorer.
    And if free movement between the EU and the UK was reintroduced we all know which way the flow would be.

    Partly because what you claimed previously is bollox:

    GDP per capita 2025 (IMF):

    Germany $56k
    UK $55k
    France $47k
    Italy $41k
    Spain $36k
    Czechia $33k
    Slovakia $27k
    Poland $27k
    Hungary $25k
    Romania $21k
    Bulgaria $19k

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)_per_capita

    Alternatively, median wealth per adult 2024:

    UK $164k
    France $141k
    Italy $114k
    Spain $111k
    Germany $67k
    Slovakia $41k
    Hungary $26k
    Czechia $24k
    Bulgaria $23k
    Romania $22k
    Poland $20k

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_wealth_per_adult
    I don’t quite buy these figures. France looks, feels, seems to be richer than the UK - not vastly, but enough that you sense it. Likewise Germany

    And I’ve travelled everywhere in France - not just nice places

    Am I suffering some optical illusion because France is more beautiful and spacious, and maintains the urban realm much better; or are the stats somehow deceptive?

    Genuine question
    Travel can give a partial picture but never a full one and you really haven't travelled everywhere in France.

    You can drive around a district in this country and get an impression of its affluence and living standards, you can then go a different route through the same district and get a very different impression.

    It might even be weather related - people tend to go on holiday in summer and travel in good weather. The same places might look a lot less beautiful on a rainy day in November.

    And travel through a place isn't the same as living there either.

    There are also non-economic issues - GDP is not the same as living standards which are not the same as quality of life.

    RFK's famous speech:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3FAmr1la6w0

    As a practical example when they shut the pits they reduced GDP and the living standards of some but it improved my quality of life by reducing air pollution and creating lots of new country parks for me to walk though.

    This just isn’t true. I spent eight weeks in France last year. And I deliberately went to some of the poorest places - in central Brittany, depressed towns on the coasts, forgotten chunks of the “empty diagonal”, post industrial places in the north and east. Burbs of Marseilles

    Also I went to many lovely places, because France is blessed with many of those

    Two days ago I accidentally drove through ONE distant suburb of Leeds. Tingley. It was more depressingly run down and grotty - burned out houses on the Main Street - than any single place I saw in France in two months

    And I’ve been researching and it seems Tingley isn’t even regarded as the worst bit of Leeds. Just “a bit rough but there are plenty worse”

    I don’t like reporting this, but it is what I see
    Thanks for proving my point.

    You think a bit of driving around makes you an expert on everything in a country.

    It really, really doesn't.

    Go and live in a place for a year and then move to somewhere near which is either much more or much less affluent and experience living there for a year and understand what the differences are.
    Yes, good plan. He could then report back in two years and it would have real authority.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 61,363

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    HYUFD said:

    Given the MoreinCommon poll has a Boris led Conservatives retaking the lead on 26% to 23% for Reform and 22% for Labour you would expect him to not only win any by election he fights in a Tory held seat but also to increase the Conservative majority.

    However I cannot see him becoming a contender for the leadership before he is back in Parliament. If Kemi lost a VONC next autumn and was replaced by Cleverly or Jenrick they would see themselves as having that mandate not Boris to lead the party until the next GE

    The tories need Johnson to survive. We'll see if they have the will and guile to engineer it.
    I think you are right.

    Declaration: I am no fan of Boris and voted for Hunt against him for leader. I think I was right to at the time, and I certainly accept the many criticisms of Boris expressed in this thread. But what's the alternative? PM Farage?

    So far as BJ is concerned, he does have a few good characteristics.

    1. I don't believe he is personally prejudiced or racialist
    2. He has been absolutely solid on Ukraine and a great friend to President Zelenskyy

    These are things I care about. And can you say the same for Farage and Reform? I don't think so.

    So, if you don't want to see the British Right-of-Centre go the same way as the US, then Boris may be the only realistic solution. Fight fire with fire when it comes to competing with Farage. Do what Farage least wants to happen - the re-emergence of Boris as a competitor. Throw over the card table.

    Hardly ideal. But there we are. Pragmatism is the British way, after all.

    Boris coming back would be the end of Britain as a serious country.
    Britain is a serious country?
    Well yes quite.
    We are falling well behind now.
    Bucharest in Romania is as rich as Yorkshire now.
    Take London and the SE away and we are basically eastern european standards of living
    Yet there are thousands of eastern Europeans who live in Yorkshire and near zero Yorkshiremen who live in eastern Europe.

    Not to mention that London has a lower standard of living than Yorkshire:

    https://www.thetimes.com/comment/columnists/article/does-living-and-working-in-london-give-you-a-wealthier-lifestyle-c2fwsvxfl
    Those eastern europeans came when eastern europe was substantially poorer.
    And if free movement between the EU and the UK was reintroduced we all know which way the flow would be.

    Partly because what you claimed previously is bollox:

    GDP per capita 2025 (IMF):

    Germany $56k
    UK $55k
    France $47k
    Italy $41k
    Spain $36k
    Czechia $33k
    Slovakia $27k
    Poland $27k
    Hungary $25k
    Romania $21k
    Bulgaria $19k

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)_per_capita

    Alternatively, median wealth per adult 2024:

    UK $164k
    France $141k
    Italy $114k
    Spain $111k
    Germany $67k
    Slovakia $41k
    Hungary $26k
    Czechia $24k
    Bulgaria $23k
    Romania $22k
    Poland $20k

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_wealth_per_adult
    I don’t quite buy these figures. France looks, feels, seems to be richer than the UK - not vastly, but enough that you sense it. Likewise Germany

    And I’ve travelled everywhere in France - not just nice places

    Am I suffering some optical illusion because France is more beautiful and spacious, and maintains the urban realm much better; or are the stats somehow deceptive?

    Genuine question
    Travel can give a partial picture but never a full one and you really haven't travelled everywhere in France.

    You can drive around a district in this country and get an impression of its affluence and living standards, you can then go a different route through the same district and get a very different impression.

    It might even be weather related - people tend to go on holiday in summer and travel in good weather. The same places might look a lot less beautiful on a rainy day in November.

    And travel through a place isn't the same as living there either.

    There are also non-economic issues - GDP is not the same as living standards which are not the same as quality of life.

    RFK's famous speech:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3FAmr1la6w0

    As a practical example when they shut the pits they reduced GDP and the living standards of some but it improved my quality of life by reducing air pollution and creating lots of new country parks for me to walk though.

    This just isn’t true. I spent eight weeks in France last year. And I deliberately went to some of the poorest places - in central Brittany, depressed towns on the coasts, forgotten chunks of the “empty diagonal”, post industrial places in the north and east. Burbs of Marseilles

    Also I went to many lovely places, because France is blessed with many of those

    Two days ago I accidentally drove through ONE distant suburb of Leeds. Tingley. It was more depressingly run down and grotty - burned out houses on the Main Street - than any single place I saw in France in two months

    And I’ve been researching and it seems Tingley isn’t even regarded as the worst bit of Leeds. Just “a bit rough but there are plenty worse”

    I don’t like reporting this, but it is what I see
    Thanks for proving my point.

    You think a bit of driving around makes you an expert on everything in a country.

    It really, really doesn't.

    Go and live in a place for a year and then move to somewhere near which is either much more or much less affluent and experience living there for a year and understand what the differences are.
    My travels mean I’m vastly more experienced in these things, than you, and notably better informed

    C’est tout
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 10,802

    Leon said:

    And I agree with you, France and Germany clearly have higher living standards than the modern UK, post-1980's.

    I don’t think it’s post-1980s

    It’s happened in the last 20 years. Up until the GFC Britain was doing well, overtaking many EU countries. After that we flatlined - understandably, our biggest industry was walloped

    Austerity made it worse. Brexit didn’t help. Covid dealt a fearsome blow to our towns. On top of that, mass migration has been a disaster for the UK (and other European countries)

    The terrifying thing is that Britain’s decline feels like it is speeding up. But that is just “a feel”. I hope I’m wrong

    Housing costs perhaps? The French have more disposable income because less goes on keeping a roof over their head.
    This is the best I can do on public realm, and it's badly out of date (it won't pick up the effect of austerity on council finances):

    https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/documents/2995521/7020151/3-05102015-BP-EN.pdf/bf18a8b3-998c-476d-b3af-58292b89939b

    Really interesting. We have a tiny rural population, and most of us live in densely urban areas, yet have the lowest rates of living in flats anywhere in Europe. The Nordic countries have excellent urban public spaces.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 10,802

    Leon said:

    And I agree with you, France and Germany clearly have higher living standards than the modern UK, post-1980's.

    I don’t think it’s post-1980s

    It’s happened in the last 20 years. Up until the GFC Britain was doing well, overtaking many EU countries. After that we flatlined - understandably, our biggest industry was walloped

    Austerity made it worse. Brexit didn’t help. Covid dealt a fearsome blow to our towns. On top of that, mass migration has been a disaster for the UK (and other European countries)

    The terrifying thing is that Britain’s decline feels like it is speeding up. But that is just “a feel”. I hope I’m wrong

    Housing costs perhaps? The French have more disposable income because less goes on keeping a roof over their head.
    Housing costs are roughly the same as ours as a proportion of income.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 63,332
    Never go anywhere "family-orientated" on a bank holiday Monday with kids.

    I should now be working. I'm actually having a stiff drink.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 61,363
    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    HYUFD said:

    Given the MoreinCommon poll has a Boris led Conservatives retaking the lead on 26% to 23% for Reform and 22% for Labour you would expect him to not only win any by election he fights in a Tory held seat but also to increase the Conservative majority.

    However I cannot see him becoming a contender for the leadership before he is back in Parliament. If Kemi lost a VONC next autumn and was replaced by Cleverly or Jenrick they would see themselves as having that mandate not Boris to lead the party until the next GE

    The tories need Johnson to survive. We'll see if they have the will and guile to engineer it.
    I think you are right.

    Declaration: I am no fan of Boris and voted for Hunt against him for leader. I think I was right to at the time, and I certainly accept the many criticisms of Boris expressed in this thread. But what's the alternative? PM Farage?

    So far as BJ is concerned, he does have a few good characteristics.

    1. I don't believe he is personally prejudiced or racialist
    2. He has been absolutely solid on Ukraine and a great friend to President Zelenskyy

    These are things I care about. And can you say the same for Farage and Reform? I don't think so.

    So, if you don't want to see the British Right-of-Centre go the same way as the US, then Boris may be the only realistic solution. Fight fire with fire when it comes to competing with Farage. Do what Farage least wants to happen - the re-emergence of Boris as a competitor. Throw over the card table.

    Hardly ideal. But there we are. Pragmatism is the British way, after all.

    Boris coming back would be the end of Britain as a serious country.
    Britain is a serious country?
    Well yes quite.
    We are falling well behind now.
    Bucharest in Romania is as rich as Yorkshire now.
    Take London and the SE away and we are basically eastern european standards of living
    Yet there are thousands of eastern Europeans who live in Yorkshire and near zero Yorkshiremen who live in eastern Europe.

    Not to mention that London has a lower standard of living than Yorkshire:

    https://www.thetimes.com/comment/columnists/article/does-living-and-working-in-london-give-you-a-wealthier-lifestyle-c2fwsvxfl
    Those eastern europeans came when eastern europe was substantially poorer.
    And if free movement between the EU and the UK was reintroduced we all know which way the flow would be.

    Partly because what you claimed previously is bollox:

    GDP per capita 2025 (IMF):

    Germany $56k
    UK $55k
    France $47k
    Italy $41k
    Spain $36k
    Czechia $33k
    Slovakia $27k
    Poland $27k
    Hungary $25k
    Romania $21k
    Bulgaria $19k

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)_per_capita

    Alternatively, median wealth per adult 2024:

    UK $164k
    France $141k
    Italy $114k
    Spain $111k
    Germany $67k
    Slovakia $41k
    Hungary $26k
    Czechia $24k
    Bulgaria $23k
    Romania $22k
    Poland $20k

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_wealth_per_adult
    I don’t quite buy these figures. France looks, feels, seems to be richer than the UK - not vastly, but enough that you sense it. Likewise Germany

    And I’ve travelled everywhere in France - not just nice places

    Am I suffering some optical illusion because France is more beautiful and spacious, and maintains the urban realm much better; or are the stats somehow deceptive?

    Genuine question
    Travel can give a partial picture but never a full one and you really haven't travelled everywhere in France.

    You can drive around a district in this country and get an impression of its affluence and living standards, you can then go a different route through the same district and get a very different impression.

    It might even be weather related - people tend to go on holiday in summer and travel in good weather. The same places might look a lot less beautiful on a rainy day in November.

    And travel through a place isn't the same as living there either.

    There are also non-economic issues - GDP is not the same as living standards which are not the same as quality of life.

    RFK's famous speech:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3FAmr1la6w0

    As a practical example when they shut the pits they reduced GDP and the living standards of some but it improved my quality of life by reducing air pollution and creating lots of new country parks for me to walk though.

    This just isn’t true. I spent eight weeks in France last year. And I deliberately went to some of the poorest places - in central Brittany, depressed towns on the coasts, forgotten chunks of the “empty diagonal”, post industrial places in the north and east. Burbs of Marseilles

    Also I went to many lovely places, because France is blessed with many of those

    Two days ago I accidentally drove through ONE distant suburb of Leeds. Tingley. It was more depressingly run down and grotty - burned out houses on the Main Street - than any single place I saw in France in two months

    And I’ve been researching and it seems Tingley isn’t even regarded as the worst bit of Leeds. Just “a bit rough but there are plenty worse”

    I don’t like reporting this, but it is what I see
    Some of the banlieues around Paris are pretty shit.
    I know, I’ve been to them as well. Likewise in Marseilles

    Pretty fucking grim. But honestly, are they as grim as the grottiest towns in northern England? The worst burbs of Birmingham? Hmm

    One “rich” western country which DOES have towns and hoods worse than the UK is Italy. I’ve been to some places in Sicily, Calabria and Puglia which could easily be in North Africa. And by that I don’t mean nicer parts of Tunisia
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 45,464

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    malcolmg said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    HYUFD said:

    Given the MoreinCommon poll has a Boris led Conservatives retaking the lead on 26% to 23% for Reform and 22% for Labour you would expect him to not only win any by election he fights in a Tory held seat but also to increase the Conservative majority.

    However I cannot see him becoming a contender for the leadership before he is back in Parliament. If Kemi lost a VONC next autumn and was replaced by Cleverly or Jenrick they would see themselves as having that mandate not Boris to lead the party until the next GE

    The tories need Johnson to survive. We'll see if they have the will and guile to engineer it.
    I think you are right.

    Declaration: I am no fan of Boris and voted for Hunt against him for leader. I think I was right to at the time, and I certainly accept the many criticisms of Boris expressed in this thread. But what's the alternative? PM Farage?

    So far as BJ is concerned, he does have a few good characteristics.

    1. I don't believe he is personally prejudiced or racialist
    2. He has been absolutely solid on Ukraine and a great friend to President Zelenskyy

    These are things I care about. And can you say the same for Farage and Reform? I don't think so.

    So, if you don't want to see the British Right-of-Centre go the same way as the US, then Boris may be the only realistic solution. Fight fire with fire when it comes to competing with Farage. Do what Farage least wants to happen - the re-emergence of Boris as a competitor. Throw over the card table.

    Hardly ideal. But there we are. Pragmatism is the British way, after all.

    Boris coming back would be the end of Britain as a serious country.
    Britain is a serious country?
    Well yes quite.
    We are falling well behind now.
    Bucharest in Romania is as rich as Yorkshire now.
    Take London and the SE away and we are basically eastern european standards of living
    Yet there are thousands of eastern Europeans who live in Yorkshire and near zero Yorkshiremen who live in eastern Europe.

    Not to mention that London has a lower standard of living than Yorkshire:

    https://www.thetimes.com/comment/columnists/article/does-living-and-working-in-london-give-you-a-wealthier-lifestyle-c2fwsvxfl
    Those eastern europeans came when eastern europe was substantially poorer.
    And if free movement between the EU and the UK was reintroduced we all know which way the flow would be.

    Partly because what you claimed previously is bollox:

    GDP per capita 2025 (IMF):

    Germany $56k
    UK $55k
    France $47k
    Italy $41k
    Spain $36k
    Czechia $33k
    Slovakia $27k
    Poland $27k
    Hungary $25k
    Romania $21k
    Bulgaria $19k

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)_per_capita

    Alternatively, median wealth per adult 2024:

    UK $164k
    France $141k
    Italy $114k
    Spain $111k
    Germany $67k
    Slovakia $41k
    Hungary $26k
    Czechia $24k
    Bulgaria $23k
    Romania $22k
    Poland $20k

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_wealth_per_adult
    How about cost of living, most of the eastern european countries you get a pint for a pound compared to the Dick Turpin rates here.
    Well that's what happens if you frequent the posho places of Ayrshire.

    You can get a pint for two quid at Wetherspoons or £1 for a 500ml bottle at most supermarkets.
    £1.47 on Mondays.
    Even in Hampstead ???
    No, we don't have one. But there's a couple within striking distance.
    I remember when the Chandos used to have really cheap beer by London standards.

    Then Sam Smiths put the prices up to tourist levels.
    London's most expensive pub is probably the Spaniards Inn in Ham/High. It's closing in on the ten pound pint there. When I first started drinking you could get 40 pints for that and have enough left for some chips.
  • AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 3,546

    AnneJGP said:

    Good evening, everyone.

    I have read the thread header and still don't understand the headline.

    It's a subtle reference to this.

    Boris Johnson brands Starmer ‘the orange ball-chewing gimp of Brussels’

    Former PM criticises ‘appalling sell-out of a deal’ with EU


    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2025/05/19/boris-johnson-starmer-orange-ball-chewing-gimp-brussels/
    Thanks. So a derogatory comment on the deal and the man who made it.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 61,363
    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    malcolmg said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    HYUFD said:

    Given the MoreinCommon poll has a Boris led Conservatives retaking the lead on 26% to 23% for Reform and 22% for Labour you would expect him to not only win any by election he fights in a Tory held seat but also to increase the Conservative majority.

    However I cannot see him becoming a contender for the leadership before he is back in Parliament. If Kemi lost a VONC next autumn and was replaced by Cleverly or Jenrick they would see themselves as having that mandate not Boris to lead the party until the next GE

    The tories need Johnson to survive. We'll see if they have the will and guile to engineer it.
    I think you are right.

    Declaration: I am no fan of Boris and voted for Hunt against him for leader. I think I was right to at the time, and I certainly accept the many criticisms of Boris expressed in this thread. But what's the alternative? PM Farage?

    So far as BJ is concerned, he does have a few good characteristics.

    1. I don't believe he is personally prejudiced or racialist
    2. He has been absolutely solid on Ukraine and a great friend to President Zelenskyy

    These are things I care about. And can you say the same for Farage and Reform? I don't think so.

    So, if you don't want to see the British Right-of-Centre go the same way as the US, then Boris may be the only realistic solution. Fight fire with fire when it comes to competing with Farage. Do what Farage least wants to happen - the re-emergence of Boris as a competitor. Throw over the card table.

    Hardly ideal. But there we are. Pragmatism is the British way, after all.

    Boris coming back would be the end of Britain as a serious country.
    Britain is a serious country?
    Well yes quite.
    We are falling well behind now.
    Bucharest in Romania is as rich as Yorkshire now.
    Take London and the SE away and we are basically eastern european standards of living
    Yet there are thousands of eastern Europeans who live in Yorkshire and near zero Yorkshiremen who live in eastern Europe.

    Not to mention that London has a lower standard of living than Yorkshire:

    https://www.thetimes.com/comment/columnists/article/does-living-and-working-in-london-give-you-a-wealthier-lifestyle-c2fwsvxfl
    Those eastern europeans came when eastern europe was substantially poorer.
    And if free movement between the EU and the UK was reintroduced we all know which way the flow would be.

    Partly because what you claimed previously is bollox:

    GDP per capita 2025 (IMF):

    Germany $56k
    UK $55k
    France $47k
    Italy $41k
    Spain $36k
    Czechia $33k
    Slovakia $27k
    Poland $27k
    Hungary $25k
    Romania $21k
    Bulgaria $19k

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)_per_capita

    Alternatively, median wealth per adult 2024:

    UK $164k
    France $141k
    Italy $114k
    Spain $111k
    Germany $67k
    Slovakia $41k
    Hungary $26k
    Czechia $24k
    Bulgaria $23k
    Romania $22k
    Poland $20k

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_wealth_per_adult
    How about cost of living, most of the eastern european countries you get a pint for a pound compared to the Dick Turpin rates here.
    Well that's what happens if you frequent the posho places of Ayrshire.

    You can get a pint for two quid at Wetherspoons or £1 for a 500ml bottle at most supermarkets.
    £1.47 on Mondays.
    Even in Hampstead ???
    No, we don't have one. But there's a couple within striking distance.
    I remember when the Chandos used to have really cheap beer by London standards.

    Then Sam Smiths put the prices up to tourist levels.
    London's most expensive pub is probably the Spaniards Inn in Ham/High. It's closing in on the ten pound pint there. When I first started drinking you could get 40 pints for that and have enough left for some chips.
    To be fair it is also one of the nicest pubs in London. Maybe even the UK

    Indeed, on a warm summer’s day, with that lovely beer garden and all that history and all of Kenwood and Hampstead Heath right outside, the Spaniard’s is one of the nicest places to drink IN THE WORLD
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,799
    You're all not going to believe me but I promise you this is true......
    Chatting whilst out today to a vague/not well known acquaintance at an event and politics came up via some lame joke I told about the current state of the Tories. I've no idea this guys allegiances but he jumped in, unbidden, with 'Boris back. That's what I want to see'
    I'm half expecting to find out someone here paid him to say it to me!
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 27,685
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    HYUFD said:

    Given the MoreinCommon poll has a Boris led Conservatives retaking the lead on 26% to 23% for Reform and 22% for Labour you would expect him to not only win any by election he fights in a Tory held seat but also to increase the Conservative majority.

    However I cannot see him becoming a contender for the leadership before he is back in Parliament. If Kemi lost a VONC next autumn and was replaced by Cleverly or Jenrick they would see themselves as having that mandate not Boris to lead the party until the next GE

    The tories need Johnson to survive. We'll see if they have the will and guile to engineer it.
    I think you are right.

    Declaration: I am no fan of Boris and voted for Hunt against him for leader. I think I was right to at the time, and I certainly accept the many criticisms of Boris expressed in this thread. But what's the alternative? PM Farage?

    So far as BJ is concerned, he does have a few good characteristics.

    1. I don't believe he is personally prejudiced or racialist
    2. He has been absolutely solid on Ukraine and a great friend to President Zelenskyy

    These are things I care about. And can you say the same for Farage and Reform? I don't think so.

    So, if you don't want to see the British Right-of-Centre go the same way as the US, then Boris may be the only realistic solution. Fight fire with fire when it comes to competing with Farage. Do what Farage least wants to happen - the re-emergence of Boris as a competitor. Throw over the card table.

    Hardly ideal. But there we are. Pragmatism is the British way, after all.

    Boris coming back would be the end of Britain as a serious country.
    Britain is a serious country?
    Well yes quite.
    We are falling well behind now.
    Bucharest in Romania is as rich as Yorkshire now.
    Take London and the SE away and we are basically eastern european standards of living
    Yet there are thousands of eastern Europeans who live in Yorkshire and near zero Yorkshiremen who live in eastern Europe.

    Not to mention that London has a lower standard of living than Yorkshire:

    https://www.thetimes.com/comment/columnists/article/does-living-and-working-in-london-give-you-a-wealthier-lifestyle-c2fwsvxfl
    Those eastern europeans came when eastern europe was substantially poorer.
    And if free movement between the EU and the UK was reintroduced we all know which way the flow would be.

    Partly because what you claimed previously is bollox:

    GDP per capita 2025 (IMF):

    Germany $56k
    UK $55k
    France $47k
    Italy $41k
    Spain $36k
    Czechia $33k
    Slovakia $27k
    Poland $27k
    Hungary $25k
    Romania $21k
    Bulgaria $19k

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)_per_capita

    Alternatively, median wealth per adult 2024:

    UK $164k
    France $141k
    Italy $114k
    Spain $111k
    Germany $67k
    Slovakia $41k
    Hungary $26k
    Czechia $24k
    Bulgaria $23k
    Romania $22k
    Poland $20k

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_wealth_per_adult
    I don’t quite buy these figures. France looks, feels, seems to be richer than the UK - not vastly, but enough that you sense it. Likewise Germany

    And I’ve travelled everywhere in France - not just nice places

    Am I suffering some optical illusion because France is more beautiful and spacious, and maintains the urban realm much better; or are the stats somehow deceptive?

    Genuine question
    Travel can give a partial picture but never a full one and you really haven't travelled everywhere in France.

    You can drive around a district in this country and get an impression of its affluence and living standards, you can then go a different route through the same district and get a very different impression.

    It might even be weather related - people tend to go on holiday in summer and travel in good weather. The same places might look a lot less beautiful on a rainy day in November.

    And travel through a place isn't the same as living there either.

    There are also non-economic issues - GDP is not the same as living standards which are not the same as quality of life.

    RFK's famous speech:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3FAmr1la6w0

    As a practical example when they shut the pits they reduced GDP and the living standards of some but it improved my quality of life by reducing air pollution and creating lots of new country parks for me to walk though.

    This just isn’t true. I spent eight weeks in France last year. And I deliberately went to some of the poorest places - in central Brittany, depressed towns on the coasts, forgotten chunks of the “empty diagonal”, post industrial places in the north and east. Burbs of Marseilles

    Also I went to many lovely places, because France is blessed with many of those

    Two days ago I accidentally drove through ONE distant suburb of Leeds. Tingley. It was more depressingly run down and grotty - burned out houses on the Main Street - than any single place I saw in France in two months

    And I’ve been researching and it seems Tingley isn’t even regarded as the worst bit of Leeds. Just “a bit rough but there are plenty worse”

    I don’t like reporting this, but it is what I see
    Thanks for proving my point.

    You think a bit of driving around makes you an expert on everything in a country.

    It really, really doesn't.

    Go and live in a place for a year and then move to somewhere near which is either much more or much less affluent and experience living there for a year and understand what the differences are.
    My travels mean I’m vastly more experienced in these things, than you, and notably better informed

    C’est tout
    You are mistaking passing, superficial experience for deep, profound experience.

    A comical example was when you tried to impress PBers by boasting about having shakshuka, without realising that Wetherspoons offer them.

    Few of us are experts on anything more than our own lives, lived day after day, year after year.
  • AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 3,546
    Scott_xP said:

    AnneJGP said:

    Good evening, everyone.

    I have read the thread header and still don't understand the headline.

    In order to understand the headline you would need to have read the latest column from BoZo.

    Don't.
    Having read @TSE 's subtle hint later, I consider your comment sage advice and gladly accept it.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 32,043
    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    malcolmg said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    HYUFD said:

    Given the MoreinCommon poll has a Boris led Conservatives retaking the lead on 26% to 23% for Reform and 22% for Labour you would expect him to not only win any by election he fights in a Tory held seat but also to increase the Conservative majority.

    However I cannot see him becoming a contender for the leadership before he is back in Parliament. If Kemi lost a VONC next autumn and was replaced by Cleverly or Jenrick they would see themselves as having that mandate not Boris to lead the party until the next GE

    The tories need Johnson to survive. We'll see if they have the will and guile to engineer it.
    I think you are right.

    Declaration: I am no fan of Boris and voted for Hunt against him for leader. I think I was right to at the time, and I certainly accept the many criticisms of Boris expressed in this thread. But what's the alternative? PM Farage?

    So far as BJ is concerned, he does have a few good characteristics.

    1. I don't believe he is personally prejudiced or racialist
    2. He has been absolutely solid on Ukraine and a great friend to President Zelenskyy

    These are things I care about. And can you say the same for Farage and Reform? I don't think so.

    So, if you don't want to see the British Right-of-Centre go the same way as the US, then Boris may be the only realistic solution. Fight fire with fire when it comes to competing with Farage. Do what Farage least wants to happen - the re-emergence of Boris as a competitor. Throw over the card table.

    Hardly ideal. But there we are. Pragmatism is the British way, after all.

    Boris coming back would be the end of Britain as a serious country.
    Britain is a serious country?
    Well yes quite.
    We are falling well behind now.
    Bucharest in Romania is as rich as Yorkshire now.
    Take London and the SE away and we are basically eastern european standards of living
    Yet there are thousands of eastern Europeans who live in Yorkshire and near zero Yorkshiremen who live in eastern Europe.

    Not to mention that London has a lower standard of living than Yorkshire:

    https://www.thetimes.com/comment/columnists/article/does-living-and-working-in-london-give-you-a-wealthier-lifestyle-c2fwsvxfl
    Those eastern europeans came when eastern europe was substantially poorer.
    And if free movement between the EU and the UK was reintroduced we all know which way the flow would be.

    Partly because what you claimed previously is bollox:

    GDP per capita 2025 (IMF):

    Germany $56k
    UK $55k
    France $47k
    Italy $41k
    Spain $36k
    Czechia $33k
    Slovakia $27k
    Poland $27k
    Hungary $25k
    Romania $21k
    Bulgaria $19k

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)_per_capita

    Alternatively, median wealth per adult 2024:

    UK $164k
    France $141k
    Italy $114k
    Spain $111k
    Germany $67k
    Slovakia $41k
    Hungary $26k
    Czechia $24k
    Bulgaria $23k
    Romania $22k
    Poland $20k

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_wealth_per_adult
    How about cost of living, most of the eastern european countries you get a pint for a pound compared to the Dick Turpin rates here.
    Well that's what happens if you frequent the posho places of Ayrshire.

    You can get a pint for two quid at Wetherspoons or £1 for a 500ml bottle at most supermarkets.
    £1.47 on Mondays.
    Even in Hampstead ???
    No, we don't have one. But there's a couple within striking distance.
    I remember when the Chandos used to have really cheap beer by London standards.

    Then Sam Smiths put the prices up to tourist levels.
    London's most expensive pub is probably the Spaniards Inn in Ham/High. It's closing in on the ten pound pint there. When I first started drinking you could get 40 pints for that and have enough left for some chips.
    Back in the mid 1980s I used to drink at the Samuelson Lighting Production Village pub in Cricklewood. Guiness was on a long term special price of a pound a pint, so although i preferred lager it was too tempting an offer. I can't remember the last time I had a Guinness, it's vile!
  • LeonLeon Posts: 61,363

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    HYUFD said:

    Given the MoreinCommon poll has a Boris led Conservatives retaking the lead on 26% to 23% for Reform and 22% for Labour you would expect him to not only win any by election he fights in a Tory held seat but also to increase the Conservative majority.

    However I cannot see him becoming a contender for the leadership before he is back in Parliament. If Kemi lost a VONC next autumn and was replaced by Cleverly or Jenrick they would see themselves as having that mandate not Boris to lead the party until the next GE

    The tories need Johnson to survive. We'll see if they have the will and guile to engineer it.
    I think you are right.

    Declaration: I am no fan of Boris and voted for Hunt against him for leader. I think I was right to at the time, and I certainly accept the many criticisms of Boris expressed in this thread. But what's the alternative? PM Farage?

    So far as BJ is concerned, he does have a few good characteristics.

    1. I don't believe he is personally prejudiced or racialist
    2. He has been absolutely solid on Ukraine and a great friend to President Zelenskyy

    These are things I care about. And can you say the same for Farage and Reform? I don't think so.

    So, if you don't want to see the British Right-of-Centre go the same way as the US, then Boris may be the only realistic solution. Fight fire with fire when it comes to competing with Farage. Do what Farage least wants to happen - the re-emergence of Boris as a competitor. Throw over the card table.

    Hardly ideal. But there we are. Pragmatism is the British way, after all.

    Boris coming back would be the end of Britain as a serious country.
    Britain is a serious country?
    Well yes quite.
    We are falling well behind now.
    Bucharest in Romania is as rich as Yorkshire now.
    Take London and the SE away and we are basically eastern european standards of living
    Yet there are thousands of eastern Europeans who live in Yorkshire and near zero Yorkshiremen who live in eastern Europe.

    Not to mention that London has a lower standard of living than Yorkshire:

    https://www.thetimes.com/comment/columnists/article/does-living-and-working-in-london-give-you-a-wealthier-lifestyle-c2fwsvxfl
    Those eastern europeans came when eastern europe was substantially poorer.
    And if free movement between the EU and the UK was reintroduced we all know which way the flow would be.

    Partly because what you claimed previously is bollox:

    GDP per capita 2025 (IMF):

    Germany $56k
    UK $55k
    France $47k
    Italy $41k
    Spain $36k
    Czechia $33k
    Slovakia $27k
    Poland $27k
    Hungary $25k
    Romania $21k
    Bulgaria $19k

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)_per_capita

    Alternatively, median wealth per adult 2024:

    UK $164k
    France $141k
    Italy $114k
    Spain $111k
    Germany $67k
    Slovakia $41k
    Hungary $26k
    Czechia $24k
    Bulgaria $23k
    Romania $22k
    Poland $20k

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_wealth_per_adult
    I don’t quite buy these figures. France looks, feels, seems to be richer than the UK - not vastly, but enough that you sense it. Likewise Germany

    And I’ve travelled everywhere in France - not just nice places

    Am I suffering some optical illusion because France is more beautiful and spacious, and maintains the urban realm much better; or are the stats somehow deceptive?

    Genuine question
    Travel can give a partial picture but never a full one and you really haven't travelled everywhere in France.

    You can drive around a district in this country and get an impression of its affluence and living standards, you can then go a different route through the same district and get a very different impression.

    It might even be weather related - people tend to go on holiday in summer and travel in good weather. The same places might look a lot less beautiful on a rainy day in November.

    And travel through a place isn't the same as living there either.

    There are also non-economic issues - GDP is not the same as living standards which are not the same as quality of life.

    RFK's famous speech:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3FAmr1la6w0

    As a practical example when they shut the pits they reduced GDP and the living standards of some but it improved my quality of life by reducing air pollution and creating lots of new country parks for me to walk though.

    This just isn’t true. I spent eight weeks in France last year. And I deliberately went to some of the poorest places - in central Brittany, depressed towns on the coasts, forgotten chunks of the “empty diagonal”, post industrial places in the north and east. Burbs of Marseilles

    Also I went to many lovely places, because France is blessed with many of those

    Two days ago I accidentally drove through ONE distant suburb of Leeds. Tingley. It was more depressingly run down and grotty - burned out houses on the Main Street - than any single place I saw in France in two months

    And I’ve been researching and it seems Tingley isn’t even regarded as the worst bit of Leeds. Just “a bit rough but there are plenty worse”

    I don’t like reporting this, but it is what I see
    Thanks for proving my point.

    You think a bit of driving around makes you an expert on everything in a country.

    It really, really doesn't.

    Go and live in a place for a year and then move to somewhere near which is either much more or much less affluent and experience living there for a year and understand what the differences are.
    My travels mean I’m vastly more experienced in these things, than you, and notably better informed

    C’est tout
    You are mistaking passing, superficial experience for deep, profound experience.

    A comical example was when you tried to impress PBers by boasting about having shakshuka, without realising that Wetherspoons offer them.

    Few of us are experts on anything more than our own lives, lived day after day, year after year.
    lol. I was making a point about eating shakshuka, not because it’s a particularly exotic dish, but because I was eating it in a Mediterranean themed tented brasserie in a park in Bishkek, Kyrgyzstan - which really IS an exotic and fantastic collision of cultures

    That sailed right over your head because, let’s face it, you’re not the brightest, are you?
  • No_Offence_AlanNo_Offence_Alan Posts: 5,065
    Andy_JS said:

    "Fans of viral Labubu dolls have reacted angrily online after its maker pulled the toys from all UK stores following reports of customers fighting over them.

    Pop Mart, which makes the monster bag charms, told the BBC it had paused selling them in all 16 of its shops until June to "prevent any potential safety issues".

    Labubu fan Victoria Calvert said she witnessed chaos in the Stratford store in London. "It was just getting ridiculous to be in that situation where people were fighting and shouting and you felt scared.""

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cvgvwvvlnv3o

    Are people getting more stupid?

    No. It was tulips once.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 51,598
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    HYUFD said:

    Given the MoreinCommon poll has a Boris led Conservatives retaking the lead on 26% to 23% for Reform and 22% for Labour you would expect him to not only win any by election he fights in a Tory held seat but also to increase the Conservative majority.

    However I cannot see him becoming a contender for the leadership before he is back in Parliament. If Kemi lost a VONC next autumn and was replaced by Cleverly or Jenrick they would see themselves as having that mandate not Boris to lead the party until the next GE

    The tories need Johnson to survive. We'll see if they have the will and guile to engineer it.
    I think you are right.

    Declaration: I am no fan of Boris and voted for Hunt against him for leader. I think I was right to at the time, and I certainly accept the many criticisms of Boris expressed in this thread. But what's the alternative? PM Farage?

    So far as BJ is concerned, he does have a few good characteristics.

    1. I don't believe he is personally prejudiced or racialist
    2. He has been absolutely solid on Ukraine and a great friend to President Zelenskyy

    These are things I care about. And can you say the same for Farage and Reform? I don't think so.

    So, if you don't want to see the British Right-of-Centre go the same way as the US, then Boris may be the only realistic solution. Fight fire with fire when it comes to competing with Farage. Do what Farage least wants to happen - the re-emergence of Boris as a competitor. Throw over the card table.

    Hardly ideal. But there we are. Pragmatism is the British way, after all.

    Boris coming back would be the end of Britain as a serious country.
    Britain is a serious country?
    Well yes quite.
    We are falling well behind now.
    Bucharest in Romania is as rich as Yorkshire now.
    Take London and the SE away and we are basically eastern european standards of living
    Yet there are thousands of eastern Europeans who live in Yorkshire and near zero Yorkshiremen who live in eastern Europe.

    Not to mention that London has a lower standard of living than Yorkshire:

    https://www.thetimes.com/comment/columnists/article/does-living-and-working-in-london-give-you-a-wealthier-lifestyle-c2fwsvxfl
    Those eastern europeans came when eastern europe was substantially poorer.
    And if free movement between the EU and the UK was reintroduced we all know which way the flow would be.

    Partly because what you claimed previously is bollox:

    GDP per capita 2025 (IMF):

    Germany $56k
    UK $55k
    France $47k
    Italy $41k
    Spain $36k
    Czechia $33k
    Slovakia $27k
    Poland $27k
    Hungary $25k
    Romania $21k
    Bulgaria $19k

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)_per_capita

    Alternatively, median wealth per adult 2024:

    UK $164k
    France $141k
    Italy $114k
    Spain $111k
    Germany $67k
    Slovakia $41k
    Hungary $26k
    Czechia $24k
    Bulgaria $23k
    Romania $22k
    Poland $20k

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_wealth_per_adult
    I don’t quite buy these figures. France looks, feels, seems to be richer than the UK - not vastly, but enough that you sense it. Likewise Germany

    And I’ve travelled everywhere in France - not just nice places

    Am I suffering some optical illusion because France is more beautiful and spacious, and maintains the urban realm much better; or are the stats somehow deceptive?

    Genuine question
    Travel can give a partial picture but never a full one and you really haven't travelled everywhere in France.

    You can drive around a district in this country and get an impression of its affluence and living standards, you can then go a different route through the same district and get a very different impression.

    It might even be weather related - people tend to go on holiday in summer and travel in good weather. The same places might look a lot less beautiful on a rainy day in November.

    And travel through a place isn't the same as living there either.

    There are also non-economic issues - GDP is not the same as living standards which are not the same as quality of life.

    RFK's famous speech:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3FAmr1la6w0

    As a practical example when they shut the pits they reduced GDP and the living standards of some but it improved my quality of life by reducing air pollution and creating lots of new country parks for me to walk though.

    This just isn’t true. I spent eight weeks in France last year. And I deliberately went to some of the poorest places - in central Brittany, depressed towns on the coasts, forgotten chunks of the “empty diagonal”, post industrial places in the north and east. Burbs of Marseilles

    Also I went to many lovely places, because France is blessed with many of those

    Two days ago I accidentally drove through ONE distant suburb of Leeds. Tingley. It was more depressingly run down and grotty - burned out houses on the Main Street - than any single place I saw in France in two months

    And I’ve been researching and it seems Tingley isn’t even regarded as the worst bit of Leeds. Just “a bit rough but there are plenty worse”

    I don’t like reporting this, but it is what I see
    Thanks for proving my point.

    You think a bit of driving around makes you an expert on everything in a country.

    It really, really doesn't.

    Go and live in a place for a year and then move to somewhere near which is either much more or much less affluent and experience living there for a year and understand what the differences are.
    My travels mean I’m vastly more experienced in these things, than you, and notably better informed

    C’est tout
    Not really, since you seem utterly unable to put anything that you see in any sort of analytical context. The only reason you are regularly sent travelling is because of a superficial ability to come back and turn in an interesting phrase for people half asleep to read of a Sunday morning. Your insight into the way the world works, despite all the places you’ve been shown around, is as good as worthless.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 35,230
    edited May 26
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    HYUFD said:

    Given the MoreinCommon poll has a Boris led Conservatives retaking the lead on 26% to 23% for Reform and 22% for Labour you would expect him to not only win any by election he fights in a Tory held seat but also to increase the Conservative majority.

    However I cannot see him becoming a contender for the leadership before he is back in Parliament. If Kemi lost a VONC next autumn and was replaced by Cleverly or Jenrick they would see themselves as having that mandate not Boris to lead the party until the next GE

    The tories need Johnson to survive. We'll see if they have the will and guile to engineer it.
    I think you are right.

    Declaration: I am no fan of Boris and voted for Hunt against him for leader. I think I was right to at the time, and I certainly accept the many criticisms of Boris expressed in this thread. But what's the alternative? PM Farage?

    So far as BJ is concerned, he does have a few good characteristics.

    1. I don't believe he is personally prejudiced or racialist
    2. He has been absolutely solid on Ukraine and a great friend to President Zelenskyy

    These are things I care about. And can you say the same for Farage and Reform? I don't think so.

    So, if you don't want to see the British Right-of-Centre go the same way as the US, then Boris may be the only realistic solution. Fight fire with fire when it comes to competing with Farage. Do what Farage least wants to happen - the re-emergence of Boris as a competitor. Throw over the card table.

    Hardly ideal. But there we are. Pragmatism is the British way, after all.

    Boris coming back would be the end of Britain as a serious country.
    Britain is a serious country?
    Well yes quite.
    We are falling well behind now.
    Bucharest in Romania is as rich as Yorkshire now.
    Take London and the SE away and we are basically eastern european standards of living
    Yet there are thousands of eastern Europeans who live in Yorkshire and near zero Yorkshiremen who live in eastern Europe.

    Not to mention that London has a lower standard of living than Yorkshire:

    https://www.thetimes.com/comment/columnists/article/does-living-and-working-in-london-give-you-a-wealthier-lifestyle-c2fwsvxfl
    Those eastern europeans came when eastern europe was substantially poorer.
    And if free movement between the EU and the UK was reintroduced we all know which way the flow would be.

    Partly because what you claimed previously is bollox:

    GDP per capita 2025 (IMF):

    Germany $56k
    UK $55k
    France $47k
    Italy $41k
    Spain $36k
    Czechia $33k
    Slovakia $27k
    Poland $27k
    Hungary $25k
    Romania $21k
    Bulgaria $19k

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)_per_capita

    Alternatively, median wealth per adult 2024:

    UK $164k
    France $141k
    Italy $114k
    Spain $111k
    Germany $67k
    Slovakia $41k
    Hungary $26k
    Czechia $24k
    Bulgaria $23k
    Romania $22k
    Poland $20k

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_wealth_per_adult
    I don’t quite buy these figures. France looks, feels, seems to be richer than the UK - not vastly, but enough that you sense it. Likewise Germany

    And I’ve travelled everywhere in France - not just nice places

    Am I suffering some optical illusion because France is more beautiful and spacious, and maintains the urban realm much better; or are the stats somehow deceptive?

    Genuine question
    Travel can give a partial picture but never a full one and you really haven't travelled everywhere in France.

    You can drive around a district in this country and get an impression of its affluence and living standards, you can then go a different route through the same district and get a very different impression.

    It might even be weather related - people tend to go on holiday in summer and travel in good weather. The same places might look a lot less beautiful on a rainy day in November.

    And travel through a place isn't the same as living there either.

    There are also non-economic issues - GDP is not the same as living standards which are not the same as quality of life.

    RFK's famous speech:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3FAmr1la6w0

    As a practical example when they shut the pits they reduced GDP and the living standards of some but it improved my quality of life by reducing air pollution and creating lots of new country parks for me to walk though.

    This just isn’t true. I spent eight weeks in France last year. And I deliberately went to some of the poorest places - in central Brittany, depressed towns on the coasts, forgotten chunks of the “empty diagonal”, post industrial places in the north and east. Burbs of Marseilles

    Also I went to many lovely places, because France is blessed with many of those

    Two days ago I accidentally drove through ONE distant suburb of Leeds. Tingley. It was more depressingly run down and grotty - burned out houses on the Main Street - than any single place I saw in France in two months

    And I’ve been researching and it seems Tingley isn’t even regarded as the worst bit of Leeds. Just “a bit rough but there are plenty worse”

    I don’t like reporting this, but it is what I see
    Thanks for proving my point.

    You think a bit of driving around makes you an expert on everything in a country.

    It really, really doesn't.

    Go and live in a place for a year and then move to somewhere near which is either much more or much less affluent and experience living there for a year and understand what the differences are.
    My travels mean I’m vastly more experienced in these things, than you, and notably better informed

    C’est tout
    You are mistaking passing, superficial experience for deep, profound experience.

    A comical example was when you tried to impress PBers by boasting about having shakshuka, without realising that Wetherspoons offer them.

    Few of us are experts on anything more than our own lives, lived day after day, year after year.
    lol. I was making a point about eating shakshuka, not because it’s a particularly exotic dish, but because I was eating it in a Mediterranean themed tented brasserie in a park in Bishkek, Kyrgyzstan - which really IS an exotic and fantastic collision of cultures

    That sailed right over your head because, let’s face it, you’re not the brightest, are you?
    I looked at Tingley on Google Maps and it seemed okay to me.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 27,685
    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    malcolmg said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    HYUFD said:

    Given the MoreinCommon poll has a Boris led Conservatives retaking the lead on 26% to 23% for Reform and 22% for Labour you would expect him to not only win any by election he fights in a Tory held seat but also to increase the Conservative majority.

    However I cannot see him becoming a contender for the leadership before he is back in Parliament. If Kemi lost a VONC next autumn and was replaced by Cleverly or Jenrick they would see themselves as having that mandate not Boris to lead the party until the next GE

    The tories need Johnson to survive. We'll see if they have the will and guile to engineer it.
    I think you are right.

    Declaration: I am no fan of Boris and voted for Hunt against him for leader. I think I was right to at the time, and I certainly accept the many criticisms of Boris expressed in this thread. But what's the alternative? PM Farage?

    So far as BJ is concerned, he does have a few good characteristics.

    1. I don't believe he is personally prejudiced or racialist
    2. He has been absolutely solid on Ukraine and a great friend to President Zelenskyy

    These are things I care about. And can you say the same for Farage and Reform? I don't think so.

    So, if you don't want to see the British Right-of-Centre go the same way as the US, then Boris may be the only realistic solution. Fight fire with fire when it comes to competing with Farage. Do what Farage least wants to happen - the re-emergence of Boris as a competitor. Throw over the card table.

    Hardly ideal. But there we are. Pragmatism is the British way, after all.

    Boris coming back would be the end of Britain as a serious country.
    Britain is a serious country?
    Well yes quite.
    We are falling well behind now.
    Bucharest in Romania is as rich as Yorkshire now.
    Take London and the SE away and we are basically eastern european standards of living
    Yet there are thousands of eastern Europeans who live in Yorkshire and near zero Yorkshiremen who live in eastern Europe.

    Not to mention that London has a lower standard of living than Yorkshire:

    https://www.thetimes.com/comment/columnists/article/does-living-and-working-in-london-give-you-a-wealthier-lifestyle-c2fwsvxfl
    Those eastern europeans came when eastern europe was substantially poorer.
    And if free movement between the EU and the UK was reintroduced we all know which way the flow would be.

    Partly because what you claimed previously is bollox:

    GDP per capita 2025 (IMF):

    Germany $56k
    UK $55k
    France $47k
    Italy $41k
    Spain $36k
    Czechia $33k
    Slovakia $27k
    Poland $27k
    Hungary $25k
    Romania $21k
    Bulgaria $19k

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)_per_capita

    Alternatively, median wealth per adult 2024:

    UK $164k
    France $141k
    Italy $114k
    Spain $111k
    Germany $67k
    Slovakia $41k
    Hungary $26k
    Czechia $24k
    Bulgaria $23k
    Romania $22k
    Poland $20k

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_wealth_per_adult
    How about cost of living, most of the eastern european countries you get a pint for a pound compared to the Dick Turpin rates here.
    Well that's what happens if you frequent the posho places of Ayrshire.

    You can get a pint for two quid at Wetherspoons or £1 for a 500ml bottle at most supermarkets.
    £1.47 on Mondays.
    Even in Hampstead ???
    No, we don't have one. But there's a couple within striking distance.
    I remember when the Chandos used to have really cheap beer by London standards.

    Then Sam Smiths put the prices up to tourist levels.
    London's most expensive pub is probably the Spaniards Inn in Ham/High. It's closing in on the ten pound pint there. When I first started drinking you could get 40 pints for that and have enough left for some chips.
    I've been in the Spaniards, the cars going past the narrow gap were an unusual form of live entertainment.
  • FishingFishing Posts: 5,586
    Is the government really thinking of equalising the tax rates on dividends and employment income?

    They don't seem to realise or care that companies pay dividends out of post-tax profits whereas wages are from pre-tax profits. That's why dividend tax rates are lower. Otherwise companies have a big tax incentive to load up yet further on debt, unless of course you allowed companies tax relief on dividends.

    It would cripple corporate investment, and what's left of our equity markets and pension funds.

    Unbelievable stupidity, even for this shower.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 59,983
    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    HYUFD said:

    Given the MoreinCommon poll has a Boris led Conservatives retaking the lead on 26% to 23% for Reform and 22% for Labour you would expect him to not only win any by election he fights in a Tory held seat but also to increase the Conservative majority.

    However I cannot see him becoming a contender for the leadership before he is back in Parliament. If Kemi lost a VONC next autumn and was replaced by Cleverly or Jenrick they would see themselves as having that mandate not Boris to lead the party until the next GE

    The tories need Johnson to survive. We'll see if they have the will and guile to engineer it.
    I think you are right.

    Declaration: I am no fan of Boris and voted for Hunt against him for leader. I think I was right to at the time, and I certainly accept the many criticisms of Boris expressed in this thread. But what's the alternative? PM Farage?

    So far as BJ is concerned, he does have a few good characteristics.

    1. I don't believe he is personally prejudiced or racialist
    2. He has been absolutely solid on Ukraine and a great friend to President Zelenskyy

    These are things I care about. And can you say the same for Farage and Reform? I don't think so.

    So, if you don't want to see the British Right-of-Centre go the same way as the US, then Boris may be the only realistic solution. Fight fire with fire when it comes to competing with Farage. Do what Farage least wants to happen - the re-emergence of Boris as a competitor. Throw over the card table.

    Hardly ideal. But there we are. Pragmatism is the British way, after all.

    Boris coming back would be the end of Britain as a serious country.
    Britain is a serious country?
    Well yes quite.
    We are falling well behind now.
    Bucharest in Romania is as rich as Yorkshire now.
    Take London and the SE away and we are basically eastern european standards of living
    Yet there are thousands of eastern Europeans who live in Yorkshire and near zero Yorkshiremen who live in eastern Europe.

    Not to mention that London has a lower standard of living than Yorkshire:

    https://www.thetimes.com/comment/columnists/article/does-living-and-working-in-london-give-you-a-wealthier-lifestyle-c2fwsvxfl
    Those eastern europeans came when eastern europe was substantially poorer.
    And if free movement between the EU and the UK was reintroduced we all know which way the flow would be.

    Partly because what you claimed previously is bollox:

    GDP per capita 2025 (IMF):

    Germany $56k
    UK $55k
    France $47k
    Italy $41k
    Spain $36k
    Czechia $33k
    Slovakia $27k
    Poland $27k
    Hungary $25k
    Romania $21k
    Bulgaria $19k

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)_per_capita

    Alternatively, median wealth per adult 2024:

    UK $164k
    France $141k
    Italy $114k
    Spain $111k
    Germany $67k
    Slovakia $41k
    Hungary $26k
    Czechia $24k
    Bulgaria $23k
    Romania $22k
    Poland $20k

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_wealth_per_adult
    I don’t quite buy these figures. France looks, feels, seems to be richer than the UK - not vastly, but enough that you sense it. Likewise Germany

    And I’ve travelled everywhere in France - not just nice places

    Am I suffering some optical illusion because France is more beautiful and spacious, and maintains the urban realm much better; or are the stats somehow deceptive?

    Genuine question
    Travel can give a partial picture but never a full one and you really haven't travelled everywhere in France.

    You can drive around a district in this country and get an impression of its affluence and living standards, you can then go a different route through the same district and get a very different impression.

    It might even be weather related - people tend to go on holiday in summer and travel in good weather. The same places might look a lot less beautiful on a rainy day in November.

    And travel through a place isn't the same as living there either.

    There are also non-economic issues - GDP is not the same as living standards which are not the same as quality of life.

    RFK's famous speech:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3FAmr1la6w0

    As a practical example when they shut the pits they reduced GDP and the living standards of some but it improved my quality of life by reducing air pollution and creating lots of new country parks for me to walk though.

    This just isn’t true. I spent eight weeks in France last year. And I deliberately went to some of the poorest places - in central Brittany, depressed towns on the coasts, forgotten chunks of the “empty diagonal”, post industrial places in the north and east. Burbs of Marseilles

    Also I went to many lovely places, because France is blessed with many of those

    Two days ago I accidentally drove through ONE distant suburb of Leeds. Tingley. It was more depressingly run down and grotty - burned out houses on the Main Street - than any single place I saw in France in two months

    And I’ve been researching and it seems Tingley isn’t even regarded as the worst bit of Leeds. Just “a bit rough but there are plenty worse”

    I don’t like reporting this, but it is what I see
    Some of the banlieues around Paris are pretty shit.
    I know, I’ve been to them as well. Likewise in Marseilles

    Pretty fucking grim. But honestly, are they as grim as the grottiest towns in northern England? The worst burbs of Birmingham? Hmm

    One “rich” western country which DOES have towns and hoods worse than the UK is Italy. I’ve been to some places in Sicily, Calabria and Puglia which could easily be in North Africa. And by that I don’t mean nicer parts of Tunisia
    That's true: there are only two places in Europe I've ever felt really unsafe - Palermo and a shitty estate in Dublin about 30 years ago. In some of the French banlieues, it's felt a bit edgy. But I didn't feel like I was in imminent danger of being smashed over the head for my wallet and cellphone.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 61,363
    IanB2 said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    HYUFD said:

    Given the MoreinCommon poll has a Boris led Conservatives retaking the lead on 26% to 23% for Reform and 22% for Labour you would expect him to not only win any by election he fights in a Tory held seat but also to increase the Conservative majority.

    However I cannot see him becoming a contender for the leadership before he is back in Parliament. If Kemi lost a VONC next autumn and was replaced by Cleverly or Jenrick they would see themselves as having that mandate not Boris to lead the party until the next GE

    The tories need Johnson to survive. We'll see if they have the will and guile to engineer it.
    I think you are right.

    Declaration: I am no fan of Boris and voted for Hunt against him for leader. I think I was right to at the time, and I certainly accept the many criticisms of Boris expressed in this thread. But what's the alternative? PM Farage?

    So far as BJ is concerned, he does have a few good characteristics.

    1. I don't believe he is personally prejudiced or racialist
    2. He has been absolutely solid on Ukraine and a great friend to President Zelenskyy

    These are things I care about. And can you say the same for Farage and Reform? I don't think so.

    So, if you don't want to see the British Right-of-Centre go the same way as the US, then Boris may be the only realistic solution. Fight fire with fire when it comes to competing with Farage. Do what Farage least wants to happen - the re-emergence of Boris as a competitor. Throw over the card table.

    Hardly ideal. But there we are. Pragmatism is the British way, after all.

    Boris coming back would be the end of Britain as a serious country.
    Britain is a serious country?
    Well yes quite.
    We are falling well behind now.
    Bucharest in Romania is as rich as Yorkshire now.
    Take London and the SE away and we are basically eastern european standards of living
    Yet there are thousands of eastern Europeans who live in Yorkshire and near zero Yorkshiremen who live in eastern Europe.

    Not to mention that London has a lower standard of living than Yorkshire:

    https://www.thetimes.com/comment/columnists/article/does-living-and-working-in-london-give-you-a-wealthier-lifestyle-c2fwsvxfl
    Those eastern europeans came when eastern europe was substantially poorer.
    And if free movement between the EU and the UK was reintroduced we all know which way the flow would be.

    Partly because what you claimed previously is bollox:

    GDP per capita 2025 (IMF):

    Germany $56k
    UK $55k
    France $47k
    Italy $41k
    Spain $36k
    Czechia $33k
    Slovakia $27k
    Poland $27k
    Hungary $25k
    Romania $21k
    Bulgaria $19k

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)_per_capita

    Alternatively, median wealth per adult 2024:

    UK $164k
    France $141k
    Italy $114k
    Spain $111k
    Germany $67k
    Slovakia $41k
    Hungary $26k
    Czechia $24k
    Bulgaria $23k
    Romania $22k
    Poland $20k

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_wealth_per_adult
    I don’t quite buy these figures. France looks, feels, seems to be richer than the UK - not vastly, but enough that you sense it. Likewise Germany

    And I’ve travelled everywhere in France - not just nice places

    Am I suffering some optical illusion because France is more beautiful and spacious, and maintains the urban realm much better; or are the stats somehow deceptive?

    Genuine question
    Travel can give a partial picture but never a full one and you really haven't travelled everywhere in France.

    You can drive around a district in this country and get an impression of its affluence and living standards, you can then go a different route through the same district and get a very different impression.

    It might even be weather related - people tend to go on holiday in summer and travel in good weather. The same places might look a lot less beautiful on a rainy day in November.

    And travel through a place isn't the same as living there either.

    There are also non-economic issues - GDP is not the same as living standards which are not the same as quality of life.

    RFK's famous speech:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3FAmr1la6w0

    As a practical example when they shut the pits they reduced GDP and the living standards of some but it improved my quality of life by reducing air pollution and creating lots of new country parks for me to walk though.

    This just isn’t true. I spent eight weeks in France last year. And I deliberately went to some of the poorest places - in central Brittany, depressed towns on the coasts, forgotten chunks of the “empty diagonal”, post industrial places in the north and east. Burbs of Marseilles

    Also I went to many lovely places, because France is blessed with many of those

    Two days ago I accidentally drove through ONE distant suburb of Leeds. Tingley. It was more depressingly run down and grotty - burned out houses on the Main Street - than any single place I saw in France in two months

    And I’ve been researching and it seems Tingley isn’t even regarded as the worst bit of Leeds. Just “a bit rough but there are plenty worse”

    I don’t like reporting this, but it is what I see
    Thanks for proving my point.

    You think a bit of driving around makes you an expert on everything in a country.

    It really, really doesn't.

    Go and live in a place for a year and then move to somewhere near which is either much more or much less affluent and experience living there for a year and understand what the differences are.
    My travels mean I’m vastly more experienced in these things, than you, and notably better informed

    C’est tout
    Not really, since you seem utterly unable to put anything that you see in any sort of analytical context. The only reason you are regularly sent travelling is because of a superficial ability to come back and turn in an interesting phrase for people half asleep to read of a Sunday morning. Your insight into the way the world works, despite all the places you’ve been shown around, is as good as worthless.
    Except it’s literally not “as good as worthless” is it? Because (unlike you) I am literally paid to go abroad and report what I see, because lots of people want to read it. That’s the opposite of “worthless”

    Furthermore, I am now paid to report on the sociopolitics of the places I visit, not just the travel stuff - and these articles prove so popular they are widely syndicated. So, again, not worthless - the opposite. My opinions are worth money

    If I had to compare what I now do to anyone, it would be my old stalker on here, who does similar stuff. Here he is writing about his experience of median ages in Central Asia

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/the-wild-optimism-of-a-young-society/
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,799
    edited May 26
    Has anyone else lamped Macron since I've been out all day? Quality brawling Eurotrash leaders
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 51,598
    edited May 26
    Leon said:

    IanB2 said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    HYUFD said:

    Given the MoreinCommon poll has a Boris led Conservatives retaking the lead on 26% to 23% for Reform and 22% for Labour you would expect him to not only win any by election he fights in a Tory held seat but also to increase the Conservative majority.

    However I cannot see him becoming a contender for the leadership before he is back in Parliament. If Kemi lost a VONC next autumn and was replaced by Cleverly or Jenrick they would see themselves as having that mandate not Boris to lead the party until the next GE

    The tories need Johnson to survive. We'll see if they have the will and guile to engineer it.
    I think you are right.

    Declaration: I am no fan of Boris and voted for Hunt against him for leader. I think I was right to at the time, and I certainly accept the many criticisms of Boris expressed in this thread. But what's the alternative? PM Farage?

    So far as BJ is concerned, he does have a few good characteristics.

    1. I don't believe he is personally prejudiced or racialist
    2. He has been absolutely solid on Ukraine and a great friend to President Zelenskyy

    These are things I care about. And can you say the same for Farage and Reform? I don't think so.

    So, if you don't want to see the British Right-of-Centre go the same way as the US, then Boris may be the only realistic solution. Fight fire with fire when it comes to competing with Farage. Do what Farage least wants to happen - the re-emergence of Boris as a competitor. Throw over the card table.

    Hardly ideal. But there we are. Pragmatism is the British way, after all.

    Boris coming back would be the end of Britain as a serious country.
    Britain is a serious country?
    Well yes quite.
    We are falling well behind now.
    Bucharest in Romania is as rich as Yorkshire now.
    Take London and the SE away and we are basically eastern european standards of living
    Yet there are thousands of eastern Europeans who live in Yorkshire and near zero Yorkshiremen who live in eastern Europe.

    Not to mention that London has a lower standard of living than Yorkshire:

    https://www.thetimes.com/comment/columnists/article/does-living-and-working-in-london-give-you-a-wealthier-lifestyle-c2fwsvxfl
    Those eastern europeans came when eastern europe was substantially poorer.
    And if free movement between the EU and the UK was reintroduced we all know which way the flow would be.

    Partly because what you claimed previously is bollox:

    GDP per capita 2025 (IMF):

    Germany $56k
    UK $55k
    France $47k
    Italy $41k
    Spain $36k
    Czechia $33k
    Slovakia $27k
    Poland $27k
    Hungary $25k
    Romania $21k
    Bulgaria $19k

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)_per_capita

    Alternatively, median wealth per adult 2024:

    UK $164k
    France $141k
    Italy $114k
    Spain $111k
    Germany $67k
    Slovakia $41k
    Hungary $26k
    Czechia $24k
    Bulgaria $23k
    Romania $22k
    Poland $20k

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_wealth_per_adult
    I don’t quite buy these figures. France looks, feels, seems to be richer than the UK - not vastly, but enough that you sense it. Likewise Germany

    And I’ve travelled everywhere in France - not just nice places

    Am I suffering some optical illusion because France is more beautiful and spacious, and maintains the urban realm much better; or are the stats somehow deceptive?

    Genuine question
    Travel can give a partial picture but never a full one and you really haven't travelled everywhere in France.

    You can drive around a district in this country and get an impression of its affluence and living standards, you can then go a different route through the same district and get a very different impression.

    It might even be weather related - people tend to go on holiday in summer and travel in good weather. The same places might look a lot less beautiful on a rainy day in November.

    And travel through a place isn't the same as living there either.

    There are also non-economic issues - GDP is not the same as living standards which are not the same as quality of life.

    RFK's famous speech:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3FAmr1la6w0

    As a practical example when they shut the pits they reduced GDP and the living standards of some but it improved my quality of life by reducing air pollution and creating lots of new country parks for me to walk though.

    This just isn’t true. I spent eight weeks in France last year. And I deliberately went to some of the poorest places - in central Brittany, depressed towns on the coasts, forgotten chunks of the “empty diagonal”, post industrial places in the north and east. Burbs of Marseilles

    Also I went to many lovely places, because France is blessed with many of those

    Two days ago I accidentally drove through ONE distant suburb of Leeds. Tingley. It was more depressingly run down and grotty - burned out houses on the Main Street - than any single place I saw in France in two months

    And I’ve been researching and it seems Tingley isn’t even regarded as the worst bit of Leeds. Just “a bit rough but there are plenty worse”

    I don’t like reporting this, but it is what I see
    Thanks for proving my point.

    You think a bit of driving around makes you an expert on everything in a country.

    It really, really doesn't.

    Go and live in a place for a year and then move to somewhere near which is either much more or much less affluent and experience living there for a year and understand what the differences are.
    My travels mean I’m vastly more experienced in these things, than you, and notably better informed

    C’est tout
    Not really, since you seem utterly unable to put anything that you see in any sort of analytical context. The only reason you are regularly sent travelling is because of a superficial ability to come back and turn in an interesting phrase for people half asleep to read of a Sunday morning. Your insight into the way the world works, despite all the places you’ve been shown around, is as good as worthless.
    Except it’s literally not “as good as worthless” is it? Because (unlike you) I am literally paid to go abroad and report what I see, because lots of people want to read it. That’s the opposite of “worthless”

    Furthermore, I am now paid to report on the sociopolitics of the places I visit, not just the travel stuff - and these articles prove so popular they are widely syndicated. So, again, not worthless - the opposite. My opinions are worth money

    If I had to compare what I now do to anyone, it would be my old stalker on here, who does similar stuff. Here he is writing about his experience of median ages in Central Asia

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/the-wild-optimism-of-a-young-society/
    You seem to be confusing entertainment with enlightenment. Both have monetary worth, but only one leaves people any the wiser.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 59,983
    rcs1000 said:

    France has better infrastructure, amenities, cultural life in its broadcasting and media, and collective social life.

    It has very bad polarisation between ethnic groups, though, worse than the UK. It's ghettos are much more deprived, but its rural, provincial and post-industrial towns are also much less deprived, than ours.

    That's fair:

    I would also note that it's high social charges mean that those with low skills are essentially unemployable. And - while its primary and secondary education is very good - its universities are pretty average.

    On the other hand, if you have an average salary, and live in an average town, then your quality of life is probably going to be meaningfully better than in the UK.
    Thinking more about this, all countries have their strengths and their weaknesses.

    Take Germany and Switzerland: their greatest strengths are that they have really good vocational training. It's quite hard to get to 21 with no marketable skills whatsoever: the system will have identified that you need to learn bricklaying, or whatever, and you will have been put through that apprenticeship process.

    On the other hand, because of extremely consensual political systems, the importance of "fitting in" (otherwise known as a willingness to "obey orders"), and a lack of availability of risk capital, they're both very poor for startups.

    Look at the US: it's big weaknesses are that (a) large parts of the interior are economic wastelands, where transport costs to the coasts are higher than getting a container from China, and (b) poor educational systems that leave too many without any route out of low wage, low skilled jobs.

    Conversely, they have great universities, lots of risk capital, and people prepared to take flyers on new business ideas.

    Nowhere is perfect. Everywhere has its problems.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 61,363
    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    HYUFD said:

    Given the MoreinCommon poll has a Boris led Conservatives retaking the lead on 26% to 23% for Reform and 22% for Labour you would expect him to not only win any by election he fights in a Tory held seat but also to increase the Conservative majority.

    However I cannot see him becoming a contender for the leadership before he is back in Parliament. If Kemi lost a VONC next autumn and was replaced by Cleverly or Jenrick they would see themselves as having that mandate not Boris to lead the party until the next GE

    The tories need Johnson to survive. We'll see if they have the will and guile to engineer it.
    I think you are right.

    Declaration: I am no fan of Boris and voted for Hunt against him for leader. I think I was right to at the time, and I certainly accept the many criticisms of Boris expressed in this thread. But what's the alternative? PM Farage?

    So far as BJ is concerned, he does have a few good characteristics.

    1. I don't believe he is personally prejudiced or racialist
    2. He has been absolutely solid on Ukraine and a great friend to President Zelenskyy

    These are things I care about. And can you say the same for Farage and Reform? I don't think so.

    So, if you don't want to see the British Right-of-Centre go the same way as the US, then Boris may be the only realistic solution. Fight fire with fire when it comes to competing with Farage. Do what Farage least wants to happen - the re-emergence of Boris as a competitor. Throw over the card table.

    Hardly ideal. But there we are. Pragmatism is the British way, after all.

    Boris coming back would be the end of Britain as a serious country.
    Britain is a serious country?
    Well yes quite.
    We are falling well behind now.
    Bucharest in Romania is as rich as Yorkshire now.
    Take London and the SE away and we are basically eastern european standards of living
    Yet there are thousands of eastern Europeans who live in Yorkshire and near zero Yorkshiremen who live in eastern Europe.

    Not to mention that London has a lower standard of living than Yorkshire:

    https://www.thetimes.com/comment/columnists/article/does-living-and-working-in-london-give-you-a-wealthier-lifestyle-c2fwsvxfl
    Those eastern europeans came when eastern europe was substantially poorer.
    And if free movement between the EU and the UK was reintroduced we all know which way the flow would be.

    Partly because what you claimed previously is bollox:

    GDP per capita 2025 (IMF):

    Germany $56k
    UK $55k
    France $47k
    Italy $41k
    Spain $36k
    Czechia $33k
    Slovakia $27k
    Poland $27k
    Hungary $25k
    Romania $21k
    Bulgaria $19k

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)_per_capita

    Alternatively, median wealth per adult 2024:

    UK $164k
    France $141k
    Italy $114k
    Spain $111k
    Germany $67k
    Slovakia $41k
    Hungary $26k
    Czechia $24k
    Bulgaria $23k
    Romania $22k
    Poland $20k

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_wealth_per_adult
    I don’t quite buy these figures. France looks, feels, seems to be richer than the UK - not vastly, but enough that you sense it. Likewise Germany

    And I’ve travelled everywhere in France - not just nice places

    Am I suffering some optical illusion because France is more beautiful and spacious, and maintains the urban realm much better; or are the stats somehow deceptive?

    Genuine question
    Travel can give a partial picture but never a full one and you really haven't travelled everywhere in France.

    You can drive around a district in this country and get an impression of its affluence and living standards, you can then go a different route through the same district and get a very different impression.

    It might even be weather related - people tend to go on holiday in summer and travel in good weather. The same places might look a lot less beautiful on a rainy day in November.

    And travel through a place isn't the same as living there either.

    There are also non-economic issues - GDP is not the same as living standards which are not the same as quality of life.

    RFK's famous speech:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3FAmr1la6w0

    As a practical example when they shut the pits they reduced GDP and the living standards of some but it improved my quality of life by reducing air pollution and creating lots of new country parks for me to walk though.

    This just isn’t true. I spent eight weeks in France last year. And I deliberately went to some of the poorest places - in central Brittany, depressed towns on the coasts, forgotten chunks of the “empty diagonal”, post industrial places in the north and east. Burbs of Marseilles

    Also I went to many lovely places, because France is blessed with many of those

    Two days ago I accidentally drove through ONE distant suburb of Leeds. Tingley. It was more depressingly run down and grotty - burned out houses on the Main Street - than any single place I saw in France in two months

    And I’ve been researching and it seems Tingley isn’t even regarded as the worst bit of Leeds. Just “a bit rough but there are plenty worse”

    I don’t like reporting this, but it is what I see
    Some of the banlieues around Paris are pretty shit.
    I know, I’ve been to them as well. Likewise in Marseilles

    Pretty fucking grim. But honestly, are they as grim as the grottiest towns in northern England? The worst burbs of Birmingham? Hmm

    One “rich” western country which DOES have towns and hoods worse than the UK is Italy. I’ve been to some places in Sicily, Calabria and Puglia which could easily be in North Africa. And by that I don’t mean nicer parts of Tunisia
    That's true: there are only two places in Europe I've ever felt really unsafe - Palermo and a shitty estate in Dublin about 30 years ago. In some of the French banlieues, it's felt a bit edgy. But I didn't feel like I was in imminent danger of being smashed over the head for my wallet and cellphone.
    Dublin can be really menacing. And apparently it’s got worse - if social media is to be believed (I know, I know)

    I haven’t been in a decade
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 59,983
    Fishing said:

    Is the government really thinking of equalising the tax rates on dividends and employment income?

    They don't seem to realise or care that companies pay dividends out of post-tax profits whereas wages are from pre-tax profits. That's why dividend tax rates are lower. Otherwise companies have a big tax incentive to load up yet further on debt, unless of course you allowed companies tax relief on dividends.

    It would cripple corporate investment, and what's left of our equity markets and pension funds.

    Unbelievable stupidity, even for this shower.

    In the old days, the income tax rate on dividends was basically the difference between corporate tax rates and higher rate income tax for exactly this reason.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 14,496
    viewcode said:

    "Walking with Dinosaurs 2025" is on iPlayer

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m0024qbn

    That T. rex in episode 1 should've been more feathered. We have a close relative of T. rex covered in feathers, although a species living at higher latitudes, so this might be an elephant/mammoth situation. Still, you'd expect some feathers on T. rex, just as an elephant has some hair.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 61,363
    edited May 26
    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    France has better infrastructure, amenities, cultural life in its broadcasting and media, and collective social life.

    It has very bad polarisation between ethnic groups, though, worse than the UK. It's ghettos are much more deprived, but its rural, provincial and post-industrial towns are also much less deprived, than ours.

    That's fair:

    I would also note that it's high social charges mean that those with low skills are essentially unemployable. And - while its primary and secondary education is very good - its universities are pretty average.

    On the other hand, if you have an average salary, and live in an average town, then your quality of life is probably going to be meaningfully better than in the UK.
    Thinking more about this, all countries have their strengths and their weaknesses.

    Take Germany and Switzerland: their greatest strengths are that they have really good vocational training. It's quite hard to get to 21 with no marketable skills whatsoever: the system will have identified that you need to learn bricklaying, or whatever, and you will have been put through that apprenticeship process.

    On the other hand, because of extremely consensual political systems, the importance of "fitting in" (otherwise known as a willingness to "obey orders"), and a lack of availability of risk capital, they're both very poor for startups.

    Look at the US: it's big weaknesses are that (a) large parts of the interior are economic wastelands, where transport costs to the coasts are higher than getting a container from China, and (b) poor educational systems that leave too many without any route out of low wage, low skilled jobs.

    Conversely, they have great universities, lots of risk capital, and people prepared to take flyers on new business ideas.

    Nowhere is perfect. Everywhere has its problems.
    Nowhere is perfect but some places are obviously better than others

    To take your two examples, Switzerland is doing an awful lot better than Germany

    And now I must hie to the shoppes, thereto buy porpoise tonggue
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,799
    edited May 26
    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    HYUFD said:

    Given the MoreinCommon poll has a Boris led Conservatives retaking the lead on 26% to 23% for Reform and 22% for Labour you would expect him to not only win any by election he fights in a Tory held seat but also to increase the Conservative majority.

    However I cannot see him becoming a contender for the leadership before he is back in Parliament. If Kemi lost a VONC next autumn and was replaced by Cleverly or Jenrick they would see themselves as having that mandate not Boris to lead the party until the next GE

    The tories need Johnson to survive. We'll see if they have the will and guile to engineer it.
    I think you are right.

    Declaration: I am no fan of Boris and voted for Hunt against him for leader. I think I was right to at the time, and I certainly accept the many criticisms of Boris expressed in this thread. But what's the alternative? PM Farage?

    So far as BJ is concerned, he does have a few good characteristics.

    1. I don't believe he is personally prejudiced or racialist
    2. He has been absolutely solid on Ukraine and a great friend to President Zelenskyy

    These are things I care about. And can you say the same for Farage and Reform? I don't think so.

    So, if you don't want to see the British Right-of-Centre go the same way as the US, then Boris may be the only realistic solution. Fight fire with fire when it comes to competing with Farage. Do what Farage least wants to happen - the re-emergence of Boris as a competitor. Throw over the card table.

    Hardly ideal. But there we are. Pragmatism is the British way, after all.

    Boris coming back would be the end of Britain as a serious country.
    Britain is a serious country?
    Well yes quite.
    We are falling well behind now.
    Bucharest in Romania is as rich as Yorkshire now.
    Take London and the SE away and we are basically eastern european standards of living
    Yet there are thousands of eastern Europeans who live in Yorkshire and near zero Yorkshiremen who live in eastern Europe.

    Not to mention that London has a lower standard of living than Yorkshire:

    https://www.thetimes.com/comment/columnists/article/does-living-and-working-in-london-give-you-a-wealthier-lifestyle-c2fwsvxfl
    Those eastern europeans came when eastern europe was substantially poorer.
    And if free movement between the EU and the UK was reintroduced we all know which way the flow would be.

    Partly because what you claimed previously is bollox:

    GDP per capita 2025 (IMF):

    Germany $56k
    UK $55k
    France $47k
    Italy $41k
    Spain $36k
    Czechia $33k
    Slovakia $27k
    Poland $27k
    Hungary $25k
    Romania $21k
    Bulgaria $19k

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)_per_capita

    Alternatively, median wealth per adult 2024:

    UK $164k
    France $141k
    Italy $114k
    Spain $111k
    Germany $67k
    Slovakia $41k
    Hungary $26k
    Czechia $24k
    Bulgaria $23k
    Romania $22k
    Poland $20k

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_wealth_per_adult
    I don’t quite buy these figures. France looks, feels, seems to be richer than the UK - not vastly, but enough that you sense it. Likewise Germany

    And I’ve travelled everywhere in France - not just nice places

    Am I suffering some optical illusion because France is more beautiful and spacious, and maintains the urban realm much better; or are the stats somehow deceptive?

    Genuine question
    Travel can give a partial picture but never a full one and you really haven't travelled everywhere in France.

    You can drive around a district in this country and get an impression of its affluence and living standards, you can then go a different route through the same district and get a very different impression.

    It might even be weather related - people tend to go on holiday in summer and travel in good weather. The same places might look a lot less beautiful on a rainy day in November.

    And travel through a place isn't the same as living there either.

    There are also non-economic issues - GDP is not the same as living standards which are not the same as quality of life.

    RFK's famous speech:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3FAmr1la6w0

    As a practical example when they shut the pits they reduced GDP and the living standards of some but it improved my quality of life by reducing air pollution and creating lots of new country parks for me to walk though.

    This just isn’t true. I spent eight weeks in France last year. And I deliberately went to some of the poorest places - in central Brittany, depressed towns on the coasts, forgotten chunks of the “empty diagonal”, post industrial places in the north and east. Burbs of Marseilles

    Also I went to many lovely places, because France is blessed with many of those

    Two days ago I accidentally drove through ONE distant suburb of Leeds. Tingley. It was more depressingly run down and grotty - burned out houses on the Main Street - than any single place I saw in France in two months

    And I’ve been researching and it seems Tingley isn’t even regarded as the worst bit of Leeds. Just “a bit rough but there are plenty worse”

    I don’t like reporting this, but it is what I see
    Some of the banlieues around Paris are pretty shit.
    I know, I’ve been to them as well. Likewise in Marseilles

    Pretty fucking grim. But honestly, are they as grim as the grottiest towns in northern England? The worst burbs of Birmingham? Hmm

    One “rich” western country which DOES have towns and hoods worse than the UK is Italy. I’ve been to some places in Sicily, Calabria and Puglia which could easily be in North Africa. And by that I don’t mean nicer parts of Tunisia
    That's true: there are only two places in Europe I've ever felt really unsafe - Palermo and a shitty estate in Dublin about 30 years ago. In some of the French banlieues, it's felt a bit edgy. But I didn't feel like I was in imminent danger of being smashed over the head for my wallet and cellphone.
    Dublin can be really menacing. And apparently it’s got worse - if social media is to be believed (I know, I know)

    I haven’t been in a decade
    I worked in Dublin in 2007, at that time it was the height of the European migration/free movement stuff with the rural Irish loving the fortune they were making on the housing market boom. Loads of eastern European shops opening in areas like Drumcondra from memory but a very overall identifiable Irish identity in the city.
    Recent video I've seen looks very different but I've not been there to see how much of that is showing what they want to show
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 79,523

    Never go anywhere "family-orientated" on a bank holiday Monday with kids.

    I should now be working. I'm actually having a stiff drink.

    Where did you go ?

    Made sandwiches for lunch at the "Butterfly house" today, the lunch queue on a BH is always bonkers at these sorts of things, also managed to swerve the little one eyeing up anything too closely in the shop so (As we're members) didn't spend a penny out !
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 45,464
    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    HYUFD said:

    Given the MoreinCommon poll has a Boris led Conservatives retaking the lead on 26% to 23% for Reform and 22% for Labour you would expect him to not only win any by election he fights in a Tory held seat but also to increase the Conservative majority.

    However I cannot see him becoming a contender for the leadership before he is back in Parliament. If Kemi lost a VONC next autumn and was replaced by Cleverly or Jenrick they would see themselves as having that mandate not Boris to lead the party until the next GE

    The tories need Johnson to survive. We'll see if they have the will and guile to engineer it.
    I think you are right.

    Declaration: I am no fan of Boris and voted for Hunt against him for leader. I think I was right to at the time, and I certainly accept the many criticisms of Boris expressed in this thread. But what's the alternative? PM Farage?

    So far as BJ is concerned, he does have a few good characteristics.

    1. I don't believe he is personally prejudiced or racialist
    2. He has been absolutely solid on Ukraine and a great friend to President Zelenskyy

    These are things I care about. And can you say the same for Farage and Reform? I don't think so.

    So, if you don't want to see the British Right-of-Centre go the same way as the US, then Boris may be the only realistic solution. Fight fire with fire when it comes to competing with Farage. Do what Farage least wants to happen - the re-emergence of Boris as a competitor. Throw over the card table.

    Hardly ideal. But there we are. Pragmatism is the British way, after all.

    Boris coming back would be the end of Britain as a serious country.
    Britain is a serious country?
    Well yes quite.
    We are falling well behind now.
    Bucharest in Romania is as rich as Yorkshire now.
    Take London and the SE away and we are basically eastern european standards of living
    Yet there are thousands of eastern Europeans who live in Yorkshire and near zero Yorkshiremen who live in eastern Europe.

    Not to mention that London has a lower standard of living than Yorkshire:

    https://www.thetimes.com/comment/columnists/article/does-living-and-working-in-london-give-you-a-wealthier-lifestyle-c2fwsvxfl
    Those eastern europeans came when eastern europe was substantially poorer.
    And if free movement between the EU and the UK was reintroduced we all know which way the flow would be.

    Partly because what you claimed previously is bollox:

    GDP per capita 2025 (IMF):

    Germany $56k
    UK $55k
    France $47k
    Italy $41k
    Spain $36k
    Czechia $33k
    Slovakia $27k
    Poland $27k
    Hungary $25k
    Romania $21k
    Bulgaria $19k

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)_per_capita

    Alternatively, median wealth per adult 2024:

    UK $164k
    France $141k
    Italy $114k
    Spain $111k
    Germany $67k
    Slovakia $41k
    Hungary $26k
    Czechia $24k
    Bulgaria $23k
    Romania $22k
    Poland $20k

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_wealth_per_adult
    I don’t quite buy these figures. France looks, feels, seems to be richer than the UK - not vastly, but enough that you sense it. Likewise Germany

    And I’ve travelled everywhere in France - not just nice places

    Am I suffering some optical illusion because France is more beautiful and spacious, and maintains the urban realm much better; or are the stats somehow deceptive?

    Genuine question
    Travel can give a partial picture but never a full one and you really haven't travelled everywhere in France.

    You can drive around a district in this country and get an impression of its affluence and living standards, you can then go a different route through the same district and get a very different impression.

    It might even be weather related - people tend to go on holiday in summer and travel in good weather. The same places might look a lot less beautiful on a rainy day in November.

    And travel through a place isn't the same as living there either.

    There are also non-economic issues - GDP is not the same as living standards which are not the same as quality of life.

    RFK's famous speech:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3FAmr1la6w0

    As a practical example when they shut the pits they reduced GDP and the living standards of some but it improved my quality of life by reducing air pollution and creating lots of new country parks for me to walk though.

    This just isn’t true. I spent eight weeks in France last year. And I deliberately went to some of the poorest places - in central Brittany, depressed towns on the coasts, forgotten chunks of the “empty diagonal”, post industrial places in the north and east. Burbs of Marseilles

    Also I went to many lovely places, because France is blessed with many of those

    Two days ago I accidentally drove through ONE distant suburb of Leeds. Tingley. It was more depressingly run down and grotty - burned out houses on the Main Street - than any single place I saw in France in two months

    And I’ve been researching and it seems Tingley isn’t even regarded as the worst bit of Leeds. Just “a bit rough but there are plenty worse”

    I don’t like reporting this, but it is what I see
    Some of the banlieues around Paris are pretty shit.
    I know, I’ve been to them as well. Likewise in Marseilles

    Pretty fucking grim. But honestly, are they as grim as the grottiest towns in northern England? The worst burbs of Birmingham? Hmm

    One “rich” western country which DOES have towns and hoods worse than the UK is Italy. I’ve been to some places in Sicily, Calabria and Puglia which could easily be in North Africa. And by that I don’t mean nicer parts of Tunisia
    That's true: there are only two places in Europe I've ever felt really unsafe - Palermo and a shitty estate in Dublin about 30 years ago. In some of the French banlieues, it's felt a bit edgy. But I didn't feel like I was in imminent danger of being smashed over the head for my wallet and cellphone.
    That sound as your head caved would have been the craic.
  • Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    HYUFD said:

    Given the MoreinCommon poll has a Boris led Conservatives retaking the lead on 26% to 23% for Reform and 22% for Labour you would expect him to not only win any by election he fights in a Tory held seat but also to increase the Conservative majority.

    However I cannot see him becoming a contender for the leadership before he is back in Parliament. If Kemi lost a VONC next autumn and was replaced by Cleverly or Jenrick they would see themselves as having that mandate not Boris to lead the party until the next GE

    The tories need Johnson to survive. We'll see if they have the will and guile to engineer it.
    I think you are right.

    Declaration: I am no fan of Boris and voted for Hunt against him for leader. I think I was right to at the time, and I certainly accept the many criticisms of Boris expressed in this thread. But what's the alternative? PM Farage?

    So far as BJ is concerned, he does have a few good characteristics.

    1. I don't believe he is personally prejudiced or racialist
    2. He has been absolutely solid on Ukraine and a great friend to President Zelenskyy

    These are things I care about. And can you say the same for Farage and Reform? I don't think so.

    So, if you don't want to see the British Right-of-Centre go the same way as the US, then Boris may be the only realistic solution. Fight fire with fire when it comes to competing with Farage. Do what Farage least wants to happen - the re-emergence of Boris as a competitor. Throw over the card table.

    Hardly ideal. But there we are. Pragmatism is the British way, after all.

    Boris coming back would be the end of Britain as a serious country.
    Britain is a serious country?
    Well yes quite.
    We are falling well behind now.
    Bucharest in Romania is as rich as Yorkshire now.
    Take London and the SE away and we are basically eastern european standards of living
    Yet there are thousands of eastern Europeans who live in Yorkshire and near zero Yorkshiremen who live in eastern Europe.

    Not to mention that London has a lower standard of living than Yorkshire:

    https://www.thetimes.com/comment/columnists/article/does-living-and-working-in-london-give-you-a-wealthier-lifestyle-c2fwsvxfl
    Those eastern europeans came when eastern europe was substantially poorer.
    And if free movement between the EU and the UK was reintroduced we all know which way the flow would be.

    Partly because what you claimed previously is bollox:

    GDP per capita 2025 (IMF):

    Germany $56k
    UK $55k
    France $47k
    Italy $41k
    Spain $36k
    Czechia $33k
    Slovakia $27k
    Poland $27k
    Hungary $25k
    Romania $21k
    Bulgaria $19k

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)_per_capita

    Alternatively, median wealth per adult 2024:

    UK $164k
    France $141k
    Italy $114k
    Spain $111k
    Germany $67k
    Slovakia $41k
    Hungary $26k
    Czechia $24k
    Bulgaria $23k
    Romania $22k
    Poland $20k

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_wealth_per_adult
    I don’t quite buy these figures. France looks, feels, seems to be richer than the UK - not vastly, but enough that you sense it. Likewise Germany

    And I’ve travelled everywhere in France - not just nice places

    Am I suffering some optical illusion because France is more beautiful and spacious, and maintains the urban realm much better; or are the stats somehow deceptive?

    Genuine question
    Travel can give a partial picture but never a full one and you really haven't travelled everywhere in France.

    You can drive around a district in this country and get an impression of its affluence and living standards, you can then go a different route through the same district and get a very different impression.

    It might even be weather related - people tend to go on holiday in summer and travel in good weather. The same places might look a lot less beautiful on a rainy day in November.

    And travel through a place isn't the same as living there either.

    There are also non-economic issues - GDP is not the same as living standards which are not the same as quality of life.

    RFK's famous speech:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3FAmr1la6w0

    As a practical example when they shut the pits they reduced GDP and the living standards of some but it improved my quality of life by reducing air pollution and creating lots of new country parks for me to walk though.

    This just isn’t true. I spent eight weeks in France last year. And I deliberately went to some of the poorest places - in central Brittany, depressed towns on the coasts, forgotten chunks of the “empty diagonal”, post industrial places in the north and east. Burbs of Marseilles

    Also I went to many lovely places, because France is blessed with many of those

    Two days ago I accidentally drove through ONE distant suburb of Leeds. Tingley. It was more depressingly run down and grotty - burned out houses on the Main Street - than any single place I saw in France in two months

    And I’ve been researching and it seems Tingley isn’t even regarded as the worst bit of Leeds. Just “a bit rough but there are plenty worse”

    I don’t like reporting this, but it is what I see
    Try Harehills.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 18,812
    edited May 26

    You're all not going to believe me but I promise you this is true......
    Chatting whilst out today to a vague/not well known acquaintance at an event and politics came up via some lame joke I told about the current state of the Tories. I've no idea this guys allegiances but he jumped in, unbidden, with 'Boris back. That's what I want to see'
    I'm half expecting to find out someone here paid him to say it to me!

    Can't say I'm surprised. The idea of Boris is still attractive, and everyone likes it at first. The catch is the Max Hastings (?) point- sooner or later he betrays everyone and everyone eventually regrets dealing with him. Unfortunately, for all the gifts the good fairy gave him, the bad fairy made him a selfish lying shit; he can't help himself.

    It's not difficult to see that some people haven't reached that betrayal point yet. It's an individual thing. But I suspect we're well past the tipping point.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 27,503
    Locked up in Guinea for 100 days:

    A search and rescue specialist hired to recover a downed research balloon in what was supposed be a four-day job has finally returned home after spending more than 100 days in a West African prison.

    Paul Inch, 50, from Blaenau Ffestiniog, Gwynedd, and colleague Richard Perham, 29, from Bristol, had gone to Guinea to recover the equipment for a firm when they were arrested and accused of spying.


    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cy0jvj84dgjo
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 45,464
    That's a good typo, Stuart. Individual thong.
  • BattlebusBattlebus Posts: 856
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    HYUFD said:

    Given the MoreinCommon poll has a Boris led Conservatives retaking the lead on 26% to 23% for Reform and 22% for Labour you would expect him to not only win any by election he fights in a Tory held seat but also to increase the Conservative majority.

    However I cannot see him becoming a contender for the leadership before he is back in Parliament. If Kemi lost a VONC next autumn and was replaced by Cleverly or Jenrick they would see themselves as having that mandate not Boris to lead the party until the next GE

    The tories need Johnson to survive. We'll see if they have the will and guile to engineer it.
    I think you are right.

    Declaration: I am no fan of Boris and voted for Hunt against him for leader. I think I was right to at the time, and I certainly accept the many criticisms of Boris expressed in this thread. But what's the alternative? PM Farage?

    So far as BJ is concerned, he does have a few good characteristics.

    1. I don't believe he is personally prejudiced or racialist
    2. He has been absolutely solid on Ukraine and a great friend to President Zelenskyy

    These are things I care about. And can you say the same for Farage and Reform? I don't think so.

    So, if you don't want to see the British Right-of-Centre go the same way as the US, then Boris may be the only realistic solution. Fight fire with fire when it comes to competing with Farage. Do what Farage least wants to happen - the re-emergence of Boris as a competitor. Throw over the card table.

    Hardly ideal. But there we are. Pragmatism is the British way, after all.

    Boris coming back would be the end of Britain as a serious country.
    Britain is a serious country?
    Well yes quite.
    We are falling well behind now.
    Bucharest in Romania is as rich as Yorkshire now.
    Take London and the SE away and we are basically eastern european standards of living
    Yet there are thousands of eastern Europeans who live in Yorkshire and near zero Yorkshiremen who live in eastern Europe.

    Not to mention that London has a lower standard of living than Yorkshire:

    https://www.thetimes.com/comment/columnists/article/does-living-and-working-in-london-give-you-a-wealthier-lifestyle-c2fwsvxfl
    Those eastern europeans came when eastern europe was substantially poorer.
    And if free movement between the EU and the UK was reintroduced we all know which way the flow would be.

    Partly because what you claimed previously is bollox:

    GDP per capita 2025 (IMF):

    Germany $56k
    UK $55k
    France $47k
    Italy $41k
    Spain $36k
    Czechia $33k
    Slovakia $27k
    Poland $27k
    Hungary $25k
    Romania $21k
    Bulgaria $19k

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)_per_capita

    Alternatively, median wealth per adult 2024:

    UK $164k
    France $141k
    Italy $114k
    Spain $111k
    Germany $67k
    Slovakia $41k
    Hungary $26k
    Czechia $24k
    Bulgaria $23k
    Romania $22k
    Poland $20k

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_wealth_per_adult
    I don’t quite buy these figures. France looks, feels, seems to be richer than the UK - not vastly, but enough that you sense it. Likewise Germany

    And I’ve travelled everywhere in France - not just nice places

    Am I suffering some optical illusion because France is more beautiful and spacious, and maintains the urban realm much better; or are the stats somehow deceptive?

    Genuine question
    Travel can give a partial picture but never a full one and you really haven't travelled everywhere in France.

    You can drive around a district in this country and get an impression of its affluence and living standards, you can then go a different route through the same district and get a very different impression.

    It might even be weather related - people tend to go on holiday in summer and travel in good weather. The same places might look a lot less beautiful on a rainy day in November.

    And travel through a place isn't the same as living there either.

    There are also non-economic issues - GDP is not the same as living standards which are not the same as quality of life.

    RFK's famous speech:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3FAmr1la6w0

    As a practical example when they shut the pits they reduced GDP and the living standards of some but it improved my quality of life by reducing air pollution and creating lots of new country parks for me to walk though.

    This just isn’t true. I spent eight weeks in France last year. And I deliberately went to some of the poorest places - in central Brittany, depressed towns on the coasts, forgotten chunks of the “empty diagonal”, post industrial places in the north and east. Burbs of Marseilles

    Also I went to many lovely places, because France is blessed with many of those

    Two days ago I accidentally drove through ONE distant suburb of Leeds. Tingley. It was more depressingly run down and grotty - burned out houses on the Main Street - than any single place I saw in France in two months

    And I’ve been researching and it seems Tingley isn’t even regarded as the worst bit of Leeds. Just “a bit rough but there are plenty worse”

    I don’t like reporting this, but it is what I see
    Thanks for proving my point.

    You think a bit of driving around makes you an expert on everything in a country.

    It really, really doesn't.

    Go and live in a place for a year and then move to somewhere near which is either much more or much less affluent and experience living there for a year and understand what the differences are.
    My travels mean I’m vastly more experienced in these things, than you, and notably better informed

    C’est tout
    We appreciate your sacrifice to entertain us. When are you leaving and to where?
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,799
    edited May 26

    You're all not going to believe me but I promise you this is true......
    Chatting whilst out today to a vague/not well known acquaintance at an event and politics came up via some lame joke I told about the current state of the Tories. I've no idea this guys allegiances but he jumped in, unbidden, with 'Boris back. That's what I want to see'
    I'm half expecting to find out someone here paid him to say it to me!

    Can't say I'm surprised. The idea of Boris is still attractive, and everyone likes it at first. The catch is the Max Hastings (?) point- sooner or later he betrays everyone and everyone eventually regrets dealing with him. Unfortunately, for all the gifts the good fairy gave him, the bad fairy made him a selfish lying shit; he can't help himself.

    It's not difficult to see that some people haven't reached that betrayal point yet. It's an individual thong. But I suspect we're well past the tipping point.
    I was taken aback that it just came up today when this was the thread I'd left to this morning! The chap that made the comment tbf I wouldn't be surprised to find has been a Norfolk Tory voter for 50 years, he 'looks' like a Norfolk County Tory, so interesting he's into Boris really. I mentioned something about Farage as an aside and he was utterly disinterested so not a Refom convert there. We moved swiftly on to important matters of state (drink)
  • TazTaz Posts: 18,635

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    HYUFD said:

    Given the MoreinCommon poll has a Boris led Conservatives retaking the lead on 26% to 23% for Reform and 22% for Labour you would expect him to not only win any by election he fights in a Tory held seat but also to increase the Conservative majority.

    However I cannot see him becoming a contender for the leadership before he is back in Parliament. If Kemi lost a VONC next autumn and was replaced by Cleverly or Jenrick they would see themselves as having that mandate not Boris to lead the party until the next GE

    The tories need Johnson to survive. We'll see if they have the will and guile to engineer it.
    I think you are right.

    Declaration: I am no fan of Boris and voted for Hunt against him for leader. I think I was right to at the time, and I certainly accept the many criticisms of Boris expressed in this thread. But what's the alternative? PM Farage?

    So far as BJ is concerned, he does have a few good characteristics.

    1. I don't believe he is personally prejudiced or racialist
    2. He has been absolutely solid on Ukraine and a great friend to President Zelenskyy

    These are things I care about. And can you say the same for Farage and Reform? I don't think so.

    So, if you don't want to see the British Right-of-Centre go the same way as the US, then Boris may be the only realistic solution. Fight fire with fire when it comes to competing with Farage. Do what Farage least wants to happen - the re-emergence of Boris as a competitor. Throw over the card table.

    Hardly ideal. But there we are. Pragmatism is the British way, after all.

    Boris coming back would be the end of Britain as a serious country.
    Britain is a serious country?
    Well yes quite.
    We are falling well behind now.
    Bucharest in Romania is as rich as Yorkshire now.
    Take London and the SE away and we are basically eastern european standards of living
    Yet there are thousands of eastern Europeans who live in Yorkshire and near zero Yorkshiremen who live in eastern Europe.

    Not to mention that London has a lower standard of living than Yorkshire:

    https://www.thetimes.com/comment/columnists/article/does-living-and-working-in-london-give-you-a-wealthier-lifestyle-c2fwsvxfl
    Those eastern europeans came when eastern europe was substantially poorer.
    And if free movement between the EU and the UK was reintroduced we all know which way the flow would be.

    Partly because what you claimed previously is bollox:

    GDP per capita 2025 (IMF):

    Germany $56k
    UK $55k
    France $47k
    Italy $41k
    Spain $36k
    Czechia $33k
    Slovakia $27k
    Poland $27k
    Hungary $25k
    Romania $21k
    Bulgaria $19k

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)_per_capita

    Alternatively, median wealth per adult 2024:

    UK $164k
    France $141k
    Italy $114k
    Spain $111k
    Germany $67k
    Slovakia $41k
    Hungary $26k
    Czechia $24k
    Bulgaria $23k
    Romania $22k
    Poland $20k

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_wealth_per_adult
    I don’t quite buy these figures. France looks, feels, seems to be richer than the UK - not vastly, but enough that you sense it. Likewise Germany

    And I’ve travelled everywhere in France - not just nice places

    Am I suffering some optical illusion because France is more beautiful and spacious, and maintains the urban realm much better; or are the stats somehow deceptive?

    Genuine question
    Travel can give a partial picture but never a full one and you really haven't travelled everywhere in France.

    You can drive around a district in this country and get an impression of its affluence and living standards, you can then go a different route through the same district and get a very different impression.

    It might even be weather related - people tend to go on holiday in summer and travel in good weather. The same places might look a lot less beautiful on a rainy day in November.

    And travel through a place isn't the same as living there either.

    There are also non-economic issues - GDP is not the same as living standards which are not the same as quality of life.

    RFK's famous speech:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3FAmr1la6w0

    As a practical example when they shut the pits they reduced GDP and the living standards of some but it improved my quality of life by reducing air pollution and creating lots of new country parks for me to walk though.

    This just isn’t true. I spent eight weeks in France last year. And I deliberately went to some of the poorest places - in central Brittany, depressed towns on the coasts, forgotten chunks of the “empty diagonal”, post industrial places in the north and east. Burbs of Marseilles

    Also I went to many lovely places, because France is blessed with many of those

    Two days ago I accidentally drove through ONE distant suburb of Leeds. Tingley. It was more depressingly run down and grotty - burned out houses on the Main Street - than any single place I saw in France in two months

    And I’ve been researching and it seems Tingley isn’t even regarded as the worst bit of Leeds. Just “a bit rough but there are plenty worse”

    I don’t like reporting this, but it is what I see
    Try Harehills.
    Birmingham around the Blues ground. Awful.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,799
    Was this posted before?
    https://x.com/JohnRentoul/status/1926998028155535417?s=19
    Sounds like the disability rebellion is hardening and will be impactful
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 10,080
    Sickly and some parts of Southern Italy do feel dodgier than the poorest parts of Greece. Greece is generally very safe even where people are poor.
  • TazTaz Posts: 18,635

    Never go anywhere "family-orientated" on a bank holiday Monday with kids.

    I should now be working. I'm actually having a stiff drink.

    We’ve had a nice walk in the local woods and I bumped into an old colleague and had a chat. We spent the rest of the day inside. A family orientated bank holiday is my idea of Hell.

    Now retired, as I said earlier, I hate bank holidays.
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 10,080
    Or even Sicily, that should be ! I don't find Sicily sickly, generally.
  • TazTaz Posts: 18,635
    edited May 26
    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    malcolmg said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    HYUFD said:

    Given the MoreinCommon poll has a Boris led Conservatives retaking the lead on 26% to 23% for Reform and 22% for Labour you would expect him to not only win any by election he fights in a Tory held seat but also to increase the Conservative majority.

    However I cannot see him becoming a contender for the leadership before he is back in Parliament. If Kemi lost a VONC next autumn and was replaced by Cleverly or Jenrick they would see themselves as having that mandate not Boris to lead the party until the next GE

    The tories need Johnson to survive. We'll see if they have the will and guile to engineer it.
    I think you are right.

    Declaration: I am no fan of Boris and voted for Hunt against him for leader. I think I was right to at the time, and I certainly accept the many criticisms of Boris expressed in this thread. But what's the alternative? PM Farage?

    So far as BJ is concerned, he does have a few good characteristics.

    1. I don't believe he is personally prejudiced or racialist
    2. He has been absolutely solid on Ukraine and a great friend to President Zelenskyy

    These are things I care about. And can you say the same for Farage and Reform? I don't think so.

    So, if you don't want to see the British Right-of-Centre go the same way as the US, then Boris may be the only realistic solution. Fight fire with fire when it comes to competing with Farage. Do what Farage least wants to happen - the re-emergence of Boris as a competitor. Throw over the card table.

    Hardly ideal. But there we are. Pragmatism is the British way, after all.

    Boris coming back would be the end of Britain as a serious country.
    Britain is a serious country?
    Well yes quite.
    We are falling well behind now.
    Bucharest in Romania is as rich as Yorkshire now.
    Take London and the SE away and we are basically eastern european standards of living
    Yet there are thousands of eastern Europeans who live in Yorkshire and near zero Yorkshiremen who live in eastern Europe.

    Not to mention that London has a lower standard of living than Yorkshire:

    https://www.thetimes.com/comment/columnists/article/does-living-and-working-in-london-give-you-a-wealthier-lifestyle-c2fwsvxfl
    Those eastern europeans came when eastern europe was substantially poorer.
    And if free movement between the EU and the UK was reintroduced we all know which way the flow would be.

    Partly because what you claimed previously is bollox:

    GDP per capita 2025 (IMF):

    Germany $56k
    UK $55k
    France $47k
    Italy $41k
    Spain $36k
    Czechia $33k
    Slovakia $27k
    Poland $27k
    Hungary $25k
    Romania $21k
    Bulgaria $19k

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)_per_capita

    Alternatively, median wealth per adult 2024:

    UK $164k
    France $141k
    Italy $114k
    Spain $111k
    Germany $67k
    Slovakia $41k
    Hungary $26k
    Czechia $24k
    Bulgaria $23k
    Romania $22k
    Poland $20k

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_wealth_per_adult
    How about cost of living, most of the eastern european countries you get a pint for a pound compared to the Dick Turpin rates here.
    Well that's what happens if you frequent the posho places of Ayrshire.

    You can get a pint for two quid at Wetherspoons or £1 for a 500ml bottle at most supermarkets.
    £1.47 on Mondays.
    Even in Hampstead ???
    No, we don't have one. But there's a couple within striking distance.
    I remember when the Chandos used to have really cheap beer by London standards.

    Then Sam Smiths put the prices up to tourist levels.
    London's most expensive pub is probably the Spaniards Inn in Ham/High. It's closing in on the ten pound pint there. When I first started drinking you could get 40 pints for that and have enough left for some chips.
    A pint of what though ?

    Probably need to compare one pint. Like they compare a Big Mac cost wherever you go.

    We could have the Madri index. Named after a fantastic, authentic, Spanish beer. The spirit of Madrid.

    There is a great bar in Durham where a pint can cost around £18.00. But it is some craft shite that is £6 a third.
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 10,071
    edited May 26

    You're all not going to believe me but I promise you this is true......
    Chatting whilst out today to a vague/not well known acquaintance at an event and politics came up via some lame joke I told about the current state of the Tories. I've no idea this guys allegiances but he jumped in, unbidden, with 'Boris back. That's what I want to see'
    I'm half expecting to find out someone here paid him to say it to me!

    Can't say I'm surprised. The idea of Boris is still attractive, and everyone likes it at first. The catch is the Max Hastings (?) point- sooner or later he betrays everyone and everyone eventually regrets dealing with him. Unfortunately, for all the gifts the good fairy gave him, the bad fairy made him a selfish lying shit; he can't help himself.

    It's not difficult to see that some people haven't reached that betrayal point yet. It's an individual thing. But I suspect we're well past the tipping point.
    When Boris was PM I had a heated discussion about him with some of his admirers. I was outnumbered and in the end cooler heads present suggested we put it aside and talk about something else. But those admirers have now moved on to Reform and are contemptuous of Boris. Yes, there are probably still some in the Boris zone, but it's emptying and I doubt those who leave will ever return.
  • TazTaz Posts: 18,635

    Was this posted before?
    https://x.com/JohnRentoul/status/1926998028155535417?s=19
    Sounds like the disability rebellion is hardening and will be impactful

    Another one from the ‘I came into politics to do nice stuff and not take difficult decisions’

    Get onto the Bank of England. Fire up the printer.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 54,833
    s
    rcs1000 said:

    Fishing said:

    Is the government really thinking of equalising the tax rates on dividends and employment income?

    They don't seem to realise or care that companies pay dividends out of post-tax profits whereas wages are from pre-tax profits. That's why dividend tax rates are lower. Otherwise companies have a big tax incentive to load up yet further on debt, unless of course you allowed companies tax relief on dividends.

    It would cripple corporate investment, and what's left of our equity markets and pension funds.

    Unbelievable stupidity, even for this shower.

    In the old days, the income tax rate on dividends was basically the difference between corporate tax rates and higher rate income tax for exactly this reason.
    I recall, when Amazon first did it, something close to anger - “If these scum refuse to make a profit, how can we tax them properly?”.

    For a number of years, now, in many Western countries, making a profit and paying dividends has been going out of fashion.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,799
    edited May 26

    You're all not going to believe me but I promise you this is true......
    Chatting whilst out today to a vague/not well known acquaintance at an event and politics came up via some lame joke I told about the current state of the Tories. I've no idea this guys allegiances but he jumped in, unbidden, with 'Boris back. That's what I want to see'
    I'm half expecting to find out someone here paid him to say it to me!

    Can't say I'm surprised. The idea of Boris is still attractive, and everyone likes it at first. The catch is the Max Hastings (?) point- sooner or later he betrays everyone and everyone eventually regrets dealing with him. Unfortunately, for all the gifts the good fairy gave him, the bad fairy made him a selfish lying shit; he can't help himself.

    It's not difficult to see that some people haven't reached that betrayal point yet. It's an individual thing. But I suspect we're well past the tipping point.
    When Boris was PM I had a heated discussion about him with some of his admirers. I was outnumbered and in the end cooler heads present suggested we put it aside and talked about something else. But those admirers have now moved on to Reform and are contemptuous of Boris. Yes, there are probably still some in the Boris zone, but it's emptying and I doubt those who leave will ever return.
    I suppose the trade off is if there are 20% that still love him and 15% that will tolerate him the Tories would bite your arm off for it. The 35% support he was on when he left office would see them very very comfortable (I know they wouldnt jump to 35% it's more that they are so In the doldrums any sort of popularity must seem attractive )
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 10,080
    The Boris fanbase thar is left I think is now more the politics-as-entertainmeht-crowd. Trump has these, but he also still has his believers.
This discussion has been closed.