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Will Jenrick or Cleverly be the orange ball-chewing gimp of Boris Johnson? – politicalbetting.com

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  • MattWMattW Posts: 27,411

    .

    Andy_JS said:
    This feels a bit like self-employed Times/Spectator writers trying to make lanyards a thing when to a vast proportion of people employed by others, they’re just a routine part of daily working life.
    They never used to be..the civil service is not a template for the rest of the workforce..🧐🥴
    They became more common with electronic access systems. I see them used in universities, but also in schools. I’ve seen them used in the civil surface, but also in private sector companies.
    Are they not also now quite routine for children at school?
  • BarnstableBarnstable Posts: 8

    Have you noticed how quiet it is out and about.
    My local pub seems to have had business fall off a cliff since the start of April.
    My local coffee shop is quiet when it used to be packed.
    Seaside resorts are noticeably quieter.
    Something is brewing out there and it aint good.

    Warm weather and people without children taking cheap foreign holidays before the school term ends and prices rocket for six weeks.

    But yes, I have noticed it's quieter out, but that is my rationalisation for it.
    Indeed. But this has been going on a while now. The woman at my local pub when i mentioned how quiet it was started ranting about Starmer for a couple of minutes. He really is universally hated.
  • FishingFishing Posts: 5,578
    edited May 26

    isam said:

    Tories would be fools to fall for Boris Johnson again, writes Jenni Russell in The Times

    While Johnson dithers, wondering not what he could do for his country but what his country might do for him, the Tories must decide how to react; they would be culpable fools to fall for this hollow man a second time. The idea that Johnson is the route to Tory recovery is preposterous. He’s the root cause of their current collapse. He broke their brand. He promised to cut immigration only to drive it up by millions. He promised post-Brexit prosperity but made the country poorer. He promised levelling up but couldn’t be bothered, so delivered levelling down. He wrecked his party, expelling so many decent principled Tories that his successor was the catastrophic Truss. He pioneered the recklessness she tried to imitate. He modelled deception, charm and carelessness as a route to highest office. His betrayals have deepened the despairing political cynicism that pervades Britain now. The country has been damaged in every way by his legacy.

    If some inattentive voters have forgotten or forgiven this, Reform haven’t; a party led by Boris would be pulverised on his record. This is not 2016, and Johnson is yesterday’s man. This is no time for a dilettante. Britons are angry, scared and furious at politicians’ paralysis as their lives and prospects get worse. They’re looking for conviction, action, dynamism, and leaders who mean to do what they say.


    https://www.thetimes.com/article/1d323e77-2eef-42b2-bf9b-af2dae00d230?shareToken=f530e93df83b65aaed3a941515844785

    He wrecked his party, expelling so many decent principled Tories that his successor was the catastrophic Truss.

    Can she name any of these people who she says were expelled ?
    By "decent, principled Tories" I assume she means the ones who refused to implement the largest democratic vote in British history, despite having run on a manifesto that both called for that vote and promised to implement it?

    Their decency is in her imagination, and their principles were dishonesty, anti-democracy and contempt for the voters who paid their salaries.
  • TazTaz Posts: 18,545

    Excuse me, something seems to have happened with my expected delivery of two-dozen likes for this HILARIOUS comment at 7am no less.


    Leon said:

    This is, in so many ways, a ludicrously bad yet perfectly brilliant Guardian headline

    “Only a third of recommendations to tackle endemic racism in UK implemented”

    It’s literally the front page

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2025/may/25/only-a-third-of-recommendations-to-tackle-endemic-racism-in-uk-implemented

    Recommendations such as this...

    https://news.sky.com/story/call-for-dog-free-areas-in-wales-to-tackle-racism-13253986

    Call for dog-free areas in Wales to tackle racism
    Dogs can be such racist bastards, can't they? Tsk!
    We badly need a 'lick it out' campaign.
    Lucky, it's very poor taste to punt failed comedy posts back into the field of play.
    I fear my pearls are being cast before, well, you know.
    Necklaces ?
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 31,944
    edited May 26

    Dura_Ace said:

    HYUFD said:

    Given the MoreinCommon poll has a Boris led Conservatives retaking the lead on 26% to 23% for Reform and 22% for Labour you would expect him to not only win any by election he fights in a Tory held seat but also to increase the Conservative majority.

    However I cannot see him becoming a contender for the leadership before he is back in Parliament. If Kemi lost a VONC next autumn and was replaced by Cleverly or Jenrick they would see themselves as having that mandate not Boris to lead the party until the next GE

    The tories need Johnson to survive. We'll see if they have the will and guile to engineer it.
    I think you are right.

    Declaration: I am no fan of Boris and voted for Hunt against him for leader. I think I was right to at the time, and I certainly accept the many criticisms of Boris expressed in this thread. But what's the alternative? PM Farage?

    So far as BJ is concerned, he does have a few good characteristics.

    1. I don't believe he is personally prejudiced or racialist
    2. He has been absolutely solid on Ukraine and a great friend to President Zelenskyy

    These are things I care about. And can you say the same for Farage and Reform? I don't think so.

    So, if you don't want to see the British Right-of-Centre go the same way as the US, then Boris may be the only realistic solution. Fight fire with fire when it comes to competing with Farage. Do what Farage least wants to happen - the re-emergence of Boris as a competitor. Throw over the card table.

    Hardly ideal. But there we are. Pragmatism is the British way, after all.

    Boris coming back would be the end of Britain as a serious country.
    Britain is a serious country?
    Not since we voted to impose economic sanctions on ourselves in 2016 and that was reinforced when we voted Ronald MacDonald as PM in 2019.
    Thankfully we've now got Sir Statesmanlike restoring our global reputation one compo cheque at a time.
    He's merely signing the cheques. Your chaps filled in the bearer names and figures in GBP.
  • TazTaz Posts: 18,545

    Have you noticed how quiet it is out and about.
    My local pub seems to have had business fall off a cliff since the start of April.
    My local coffee shop is quiet when it used to be packed.
    Seaside resorts are noticeably quieter.
    Something is brewing out there and it aint good.

    Warm weather and people without children taking cheap foreign holidays before the school term ends and prices rocket for six weeks.

    But yes, I have noticed it's quieter out, but that is my rationalisation for it.
    Indeed. But this has been going on a while now. The woman at my local pub when i mentioned how quiet it was started ranting about Starmer for a couple of minutes. He really is universally hated.
    Your local pub, is it The Hammer and Sickle ?
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 14,481
    Tres said:

    HYUFD said:

    Given the MoreinCommon poll has a Boris led Conservatives retaking the lead on 26% to 23% for Reform and 22% for Labour you would expect him to not only win any by election he fights in a Tory held seat but also to increase the Conservative majority.

    However I cannot see him becoming a contender for the leadership before he is back in Parliament. If Kemi lost a VONC next autumn and was replaced by Cleverly or Jenrick they would see themselves as having that mandate not Boris to lead the party until the next GE

    As soon as I saw the header this morning I knew you'd be regurgitating that polling stat.

    All it does is demonstrate how poor Kemi Badenoch is.
    or how tory leaning voters wont vote for a party led by a black woman
    I paid zero attention to it at the time because why the fuck would anybody be interested in Gurning Nobody vs Whey Faced Psychopath but exactly how did Kemical Kastration beat Jenners in the membership vote? What the fuck did she promise the stupid old c-nts?
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 27,674

    Dura_Ace said:

    HYUFD said:

    Given the MoreinCommon poll has a Boris led Conservatives retaking the lead on 26% to 23% for Reform and 22% for Labour you would expect him to not only win any by election he fights in a Tory held seat but also to increase the Conservative majority.

    However I cannot see him becoming a contender for the leadership before he is back in Parliament. If Kemi lost a VONC next autumn and was replaced by Cleverly or Jenrick they would see themselves as having that mandate not Boris to lead the party until the next GE

    The tories need Johnson to survive. We'll see if they have the will and guile to engineer it.
    I think you are right.

    Declaration: I am no fan of Boris and voted for Hunt against him for leader. I think I was right to at the time, and I certainly accept the many criticisms of Boris expressed in this thread. But what's the alternative? PM Farage?

    So far as BJ is concerned, he does have a few good characteristics.

    1. I don't believe he is personally prejudiced or racialist
    2. He has been absolutely solid on Ukraine and a great friend to President Zelenskyy

    These are things I care about. And can you say the same for Farage and Reform? I don't think so.

    So, if you don't want to see the British Right-of-Centre go the same way as the US, then Boris may be the only realistic solution. Fight fire with fire when it comes to competing with Farage. Do what Farage least wants to happen - the re-emergence of Boris as a competitor. Throw over the card table.

    Hardly ideal. But there we are. Pragmatism is the British way, after all.

    Boris coming back would be the end of Britain as a serious country.
    Britain is a serious country?
    Well yes quite.
    We are falling well behind now.
    Bucharest in Romania is as rich as Yorkshire now.
    Take London and the SE away and we are basically eastern european standards of living
    Yet there are thousands of eastern Europeans who live in Yorkshire and near zero Yorkshiremen who live in eastern Europe.

    Not to mention that London has a lower standard of living than Yorkshire:

    https://www.thetimes.com/comment/columnists/article/does-living-and-working-in-london-give-you-a-wealthier-lifestyle-c2fwsvxfl
    Those eastern europeans came when eastern europe was substantially poorer.
    And if free movement between the EU and the UK was reintroduced we all know which way the flow would be.

    Partly because what you claimed previously is bollox:

    GDP per capita 2025 (IMF):

    Germany $56k
    UK $55k
    France $47k
    Italy $41k
    Spain $36k
    Czechia $33k
    Slovakia $27k
    Poland $27k
    Hungary $25k
    Romania $21k
    Bulgaria $19k

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)_per_capita

    Alternatively, median wealth per adult 2024:

    UK $164k
    France $141k
    Italy $114k
    Spain $111k
    Germany $67k
    Slovakia $41k
    Hungary $26k
    Czechia $24k
    Bulgaria $23k
    Romania $22k
    Poland $20k

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_wealth_per_adult
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 14,423

    isam said:

    London borough has 'once-in-a-century opportunity' to split from capital, says MP
    Romford MP Andrew Rosindell is campaigning for the London borough of Havering to leave the capital

    https://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/havering-independence-essex-borough-b1229726.html

    I lived in Havering most of my life and I think people who still do would vote to Leave London if there were a referendum on it.
    I think that is correct. Whether they'd want to join Essex is something I'm less clear on.
    At least Essex people would have something to join. Parts of 'London' still have a Middlesex identity, 60 years after its total obliteration, but there is nothing left except a not very good cricket team and John Betjeman:

    https://allpoetry.com/Middlesex
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 27,674

    Dura_Ace said:

    HYUFD said:

    Given the MoreinCommon poll has a Boris led Conservatives retaking the lead on 26% to 23% for Reform and 22% for Labour you would expect him to not only win any by election he fights in a Tory held seat but also to increase the Conservative majority.

    However I cannot see him becoming a contender for the leadership before he is back in Parliament. If Kemi lost a VONC next autumn and was replaced by Cleverly or Jenrick they would see themselves as having that mandate not Boris to lead the party until the next GE

    The tories need Johnson to survive. We'll see if they have the will and guile to engineer it.
    I think you are right.

    Declaration: I am no fan of Boris and voted for Hunt against him for leader. I think I was right to at the time, and I certainly accept the many criticisms of Boris expressed in this thread. But what's the alternative? PM Farage?

    So far as BJ is concerned, he does have a few good characteristics.

    1. I don't believe he is personally prejudiced or racialist
    2. He has been absolutely solid on Ukraine and a great friend to President Zelenskyy

    These are things I care about. And can you say the same for Farage and Reform? I don't think so.

    So, if you don't want to see the British Right-of-Centre go the same way as the US, then Boris may be the only realistic solution. Fight fire with fire when it comes to competing with Farage. Do what Farage least wants to happen - the re-emergence of Boris as a competitor. Throw over the card table.

    Hardly ideal. But there we are. Pragmatism is the British way, after all.

    Boris coming back would be the end of Britain as a serious country.
    Britain is a serious country?
    Well yes quite.
    We are falling well behind now.
    Bucharest in Romania is as rich as Yorkshire now.
    Take London and the SE away and we are basically eastern european standards of living
    Yet there are thousands of eastern Europeans who live in Yorkshire and near zero Yorkshiremen who live in eastern Europe.

    Not to mention that London has a lower standard of living than Yorkshire:

    https://www.thetimes.com/comment/columnists/article/does-living-and-working-in-london-give-you-a-wealthier-lifestyle-c2fwsvxfl
    Those eastern europeans came when eastern europe was substantially poorer.
    And if free movement between the EU and the UK was reintroduced we all know which way the flow would be.

    Partly because what you claimed previously is bollox:

    GDP per capita 2025 (IMF):

    Germany $56k
    UK $55k
    France $47k
    Italy $41k
    Spain $36k
    Czechia $33k
    Slovakia $27k
    Poland $27k
    Hungary $25k
    Romania $21k
    Bulgaria $19k

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)_per_capita

    Alternatively, median wealth per adult 2024:

    UK $164k
    France $141k
    Italy $114k
    Spain $111k
    Germany $67k
    Slovakia $41k
    Hungary $26k
    Czechia $24k
    Bulgaria $23k
    Romania $22k
    Poland $20k

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_wealth_per_adult
    Interestingly that wiki list gives USA wealth per adult as:

    $112,157 median
    $564,862 mean

    compared with UK wealth per adult:

    $163,515 median
    $350,264 mean

    illustrating how much greater wealth inequality is in the USA.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 55,407

    Dura_Ace said:

    HYUFD said:

    Given the MoreinCommon poll has a Boris led Conservatives retaking the lead on 26% to 23% for Reform and 22% for Labour you would expect him to not only win any by election he fights in a Tory held seat but also to increase the Conservative majority.

    However I cannot see him becoming a contender for the leadership before he is back in Parliament. If Kemi lost a VONC next autumn and was replaced by Cleverly or Jenrick they would see themselves as having that mandate not Boris to lead the party until the next GE

    The tories need Johnson to survive. We'll see if they have the will and guile to engineer it.
    I think you are right.

    Declaration: I am no fan of Boris and voted for Hunt against him for leader. I think I was right to at the time, and I certainly accept the many criticisms of Boris expressed in this thread. But what's the alternative? PM Farage?

    So far as BJ is concerned, he does have a few good characteristics.

    1. I don't believe he is personally prejudiced or racialist
    2. He has been absolutely solid on Ukraine and a great friend to President Zelenskyy

    These are things I care about. And can you say the same for Farage and Reform? I don't think so.

    So, if you don't want to see the British Right-of-Centre go the same way as the US, then Boris may be the only realistic solution. Fight fire with fire when it comes to competing with Farage. Do what Farage least wants to happen - the re-emergence of Boris as a competitor. Throw over the card table.

    Hardly ideal. But there we are. Pragmatism is the British way, after all.

    Boris coming back would be the end of Britain as a serious country.
    Britain is a serious country?
    Well yes quite.
    We are falling well behind now.
    Bucharest in Romania is as rich as Yorkshire now.
    Take London and the SE away and we are basically eastern european standards of living
    Yet there are thousands of eastern Europeans who live in Yorkshire and near zero Yorkshiremen who live in eastern Europe.

    Not to mention that London has a lower standard of living than Yorkshire:

    https://www.thetimes.com/comment/columnists/article/does-living-and-working-in-london-give-you-a-wealthier-lifestyle-c2fwsvxfl
    Those eastern europeans came when eastern europe was substantially poorer.
    And if free movement between the EU and the UK was reintroduced we all know which way the flow would be.

    Partly because what you claimed previously is bollox:

    GDP per capita 2025 (IMF):

    Germany $56k
    UK $55k
    France $47k
    Italy $41k
    Spain $36k
    Czechia $33k
    Slovakia $27k
    Poland $27k
    Hungary $25k
    Romania $21k
    Bulgaria $19k

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)_per_capita

    Alternatively, median wealth per adult 2024:

    UK $164k
    France $141k
    Italy $114k
    Spain $111k
    Germany $67k
    Slovakia $41k
    Hungary $26k
    Czechia $24k
    Bulgaria $23k
    Romania $22k
    Poland $20k

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_wealth_per_adult
    Interestingly that wiki list gives USA wealth per adult as:

    $112,157 median
    $564,862 mean

    compared with UK wealth per adult:

    $163,515 median
    $350,264 mean

    illustrating how much greater wealth inequality is in the USA.
    When you look at those numbers it’s almost as if the supposed economic catastrophe of Brexit didn’t happen, isn’t it?

    Who could possibly have foreseen such a thing?
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 10,768
    edited May 26
    MattW said:

    Taz said:

    MattW said:

    Nigelb said:

    malcolmg said:

    Nigelb said:

    TimS said:

    Eabhal said:

    What is going to happen with energy today? We're already at 120%, exporting to the continent and the sun is barely up yet.

    I guess we'll be paying lots of turbines to turn off. What a waste.

    And we’re still burning gas, presumably down South because the grid can’t get the electricity from the wind farms quickly enough.

    0.41gw going into pumped storage.

    We’re also, oddly, buying electricity from France up the interconnector at the moment.
    Another good illustration of getting stuff built rather than messing around with planning enquiries and legal challenges for half a decade.

    Far more grid infrastructure could be built by now if that were the case.
    Sure you would love a tower in your garden
    I live in West Yorkshir, Malc.
    Pylons have crisscrossed the landscape for decades.
    It's a complete non issue for 95% - Farage and other bits of the political and media Right scraping around for a marketing narrative, since they have no credible policies.

    Not so long ago RefUK were in support of meeting net-zero.

    And now Mayor of Lincolnshire is supporting investment in Offshore Wind - that old Conservatve pragmatism.
    https://www.desmog.com/2025/05/23/anti-net-zero-reform-mayor-andrea-jenkyns-urges-offshore-wind-investment/
    Why do people,frame this as just being the right against pylons.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cgrlx7z64n4o
    I think because that is how the Right frame it themselves - it's an arm of both Nimbyism and the Reform narrative, plus their media drone on about it endlessly.

    For the MP you link, Adrian Ramsey, TBF to him he is asking for alternatives to be considered ie an offshore grid and buried cables, in advance of pylon lines. I don't see either of those as viable - one for national secutity and fishing reasons, the other because of cost and maintainability.

    I grew up with a pylon in our family paddock in Derbyshire, and I don't see any problem.
    I'd much rather a pylon than a turbine. The visual impact of something white and moving is 10x worse, and then you've got all the vehicle tracks trashing the moor.

    What's weird is that they bury the cables running off the hill from the turbines. In my view the hill is already bespoiled by the turbines, so it's a massive cost for not much gain. I apply the same logic for running the Beauly-Denny line down the A9 corridor - it's already got a dual carriageway running down it, so there shouldn't be planning worries (in terms of landscape) if there is already significant infrastructure in place.

    Like everything, infrastructure in the UK has a much bigger visual impact than elsewhere because of our lack of trees. The 275kv/400kv lines running through the north-east of Scotland make scarcely any impact all where they run through wooded areas.
  • TazTaz Posts: 18,545
    MattW said:

    Taz said:

    MattW said:

    Nigelb said:

    malcolmg said:

    Nigelb said:

    TimS said:

    Eabhal said:

    What is going to happen with energy today? We're already at 120%, exporting to the continent and the sun is barely up yet.

    I guess we'll be paying lots of turbines to turn off. What a waste.

    And we’re still burning gas, presumably down South because the grid can’t get the electricity from the wind farms quickly enough.

    0.41gw going into pumped storage.

    We’re also, oddly, buying electricity from France up the interconnector at the moment.
    Another good illustration of getting stuff built rather than messing around with planning enquiries and legal challenges for half a decade.

    Far more grid infrastructure could be built by now if that were the case.
    Sure you would love a tower in your garden
    I live in West Yorkshir, Malc.
    Pylons have crisscrossed the landscape for decades.
    It's a complete non issue for 95% - Farage and other bits of the political and media Right scraping around for a marketing narrative, since they have no credible policies.

    Not so long ago RefUK were in support of meeting net-zero.

    And now Mayor of Lincolnshire is supporting investment in Offshore Wind - that old Conservatve pragmatism.
    https://www.desmog.com/2025/05/23/anti-net-zero-reform-mayor-andrea-jenkyns-urges-offshore-wind-investment/
    Why do people,frame this as just being the right against pylons.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cgrlx7z64n4o
    I think because that is how the Right frame it themselves - it's an arm of both Nimbyism and the Reform narrative, plus their media drone on about it endlessly.

    For the MP you link, Adrian Ramsey, TBF to him he is asking for alternatives to be considered ie an offshore grid and buried cables, in advance of pylon lines. I don't see either of those as viable - one for national secutity and fishing reasons, the other because of cost and maintainability.

    I grew up with a pylon in our family paddock in Derbyshire, and I don't see any problem.
    Reform are proposing underground cables too.

    The Greens also campaign against solar at a local level, in the wrong area is the Lib Dem style of excuse.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-65926756

    The Greens want their cake and eat it. Just NIMBYism.

    I think your paddock having a pylon was probably better than this ?

    https://www.mirror.co.uk/money/two-bed-bungalow-sale-350000-26237573
  • MattWMattW Posts: 27,411
    edited May 26
    This is my photo for today. It is an uncontrolled crossing on the Colchester Road in London, taken by the Ranty Highwayman (he is a highway designer) on his walk from J28 on the M25 to Marble Arch, as part of "May the month for walking" - surveying the infra as he went (including suggestions and context). This one has 35k vehicles per day, and a 50mph limit. It's a good way to get a top slice view; I used to enjoy walking half way across London, but I did it for architectural interest.



    "Just down from the sub station access is an uncontrolled crossing of the Colchester Road between Painesbrook Park and St. Neots Park (above). As well as the parks and people living both sides of the A12, there are primary schools here and Harold Wood station to the south, and as such, there are often people trying to cross here with over 35,000 vehicles a day and a 50mph speed limit."

    Here's his account (you need a cup, or a pot, of tea, and several digestives):
    https://therantyhighwayman.blogspot.com/2025/05/the-lonely-walk.html
  • kjhkjh Posts: 12,673

    .

    Andy_JS said:
    This feels a bit like self-employed Times/Spectator writers trying to make lanyards a thing when to a vast proportion of people employed by others, they’re just a routine part of daily working life.
    They never used to be..the civil service is not a template for the rest of the workforce..🧐🥴
    Really. I haven't worked for about 15 years, yet they were very common then. Being a one man band obviously I didn't have one, but I have dozens of them from conferences and big companies that I visited. Everywhere I visited I had to sign in and was given a lanyard or visitors badge. All of these were large commercial organisations. Invariably I was supposed to return them on leaving, but often forgot.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 11,656

    Dura_Ace said:

    HYUFD said:

    Given the MoreinCommon poll has a Boris led Conservatives retaking the lead on 26% to 23% for Reform and 22% for Labour you would expect him to not only win any by election he fights in a Tory held seat but also to increase the Conservative majority.

    However I cannot see him becoming a contender for the leadership before he is back in Parliament. If Kemi lost a VONC next autumn and was replaced by Cleverly or Jenrick they would see themselves as having that mandate not Boris to lead the party until the next GE

    The tories need Johnson to survive. We'll see if they have the will and guile to engineer it.
    I think you are right.

    Declaration: I am no fan of Boris and voted for Hunt against him for leader. I think I was right to at the time, and I certainly accept the many criticisms of Boris expressed in this thread. But what's the alternative? PM Farage?

    So far as BJ is concerned, he does have a few good characteristics.

    1. I don't believe he is personally prejudiced or racialist
    2. He has been absolutely solid on Ukraine and a great friend to President Zelenskyy

    These are things I care about. And can you say the same for Farage and Reform? I don't think so.

    So, if you don't want to see the British Right-of-Centre go the same way as the US, then Boris may be the only realistic solution. Fight fire with fire when it comes to competing with Farage. Do what Farage least wants to happen - the re-emergence of Boris as a competitor. Throw over the card table.

    Hardly ideal. But there we are. Pragmatism is the British way, after all.

    Boris coming back would be the end of Britain as a serious country.
    Britain is a serious country?
    Well yes quite.
    We are falling well behind now.
    Bucharest in Romania is as rich as Yorkshire now.
    Take London and the SE away and we are basically eastern european standards of living
    Yet there are thousands of eastern Europeans who live in Yorkshire and near zero Yorkshiremen who live in eastern Europe.

    Not to mention that London has a lower standard of living than Yorkshire:

    https://www.thetimes.com/comment/columnists/article/does-living-and-working-in-london-give-you-a-wealthier-lifestyle-c2fwsvxfl
    Those eastern europeans came when eastern europe was substantially poorer.
    And if free movement between the EU and the UK was reintroduced we all know which way the flow would be.

    Partly because what you claimed previously is bollox:

    GDP per capita 2025 (IMF):

    Germany $56k
    UK $55k
    France $47k
    Italy $41k
    Spain $36k
    Czechia $33k
    Slovakia $27k
    Poland $27k
    Hungary $25k
    Romania $21k
    Bulgaria $19k

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)_per_capita

    Alternatively, median wealth per adult 2024:

    UK $164k
    France $141k
    Italy $114k
    Spain $111k
    Germany $67k
    Slovakia $41k
    Hungary $26k
    Czechia $24k
    Bulgaria $23k
    Romania $22k
    Poland $20k

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_wealth_per_adult
    I find these sort of charts incredibly annoying because they are misleading, gdp per capita is a useful measure for individual countries to use to see if on the whole they are getting better. Between countries however I think they are actually not only useless but detrimental.

    My reasoning for this is that is for instance you use the basket of goods we use to calculate cpih you may well find

    Country A gdp per capita 50000$ basket of goods value = 1000$
    Country B gdp per capita 100000$ basket of goods value = 3000$

    So by purely gdp per capita measures people in country B are twice as well off whereas in reality because they have a cost of living 3 times higher

    Therefore for how far the working wage goes

    Country A realistically is 50
    Country B realistically is 33.33
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 54,287
    "I accused men of being responsible for a social breakdown which is costing us all, as taxpayers, £9.1 billion per year, and which is producing a generation of ill-raised, ignorant, aggressive and illegitimate children.

    "With £90 billion currently spent on welfare, the great economic issues of our time are social. They are moral. And yet the Government is virtually incapacitated from utterance by its own bumbling.

    "The modern British male is useless. If he is blue collar, he is likely to be drunk, criminal, aimless, feckless and hopeless, and perhaps claiming to suffer from low self-esteem brought on by unemployment. If he is white collar, he is likely to be little better.

    "Something must be found, first, to restore women's desire to be married. That means addressing the feebleness of the modern Briton, his reluctance or inability to take control of his woman and be head of a household."


    - Boris: "The male sex is to blame for the appalling proliferation of single mothers", The Spectator, 19 August 1995.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 11,656

    "I accused men of being responsible for a social breakdown which is costing us all, as taxpayers, £9.1 billion per year, and which is producing a generation of ill-raised, ignorant, aggressive and illegitimate children.

    "With £90 billion currently spent on welfare, the great economic issues of our time are social. They are moral. And yet the Government is virtually incapacitated from utterance by its own bumbling.

    "The modern British male is useless. If he is blue collar, he is likely to be drunk, criminal, aimless, feckless and hopeless, and perhaps claiming to suffer from low self-esteem brought on by unemployment. If he is white collar, he is likely to be little better.

    "Something must be found, first, to restore women's desire to be married. That means addressing the feebleness of the modern Briton, his reluctance or inability to take control of his woman and be head of a household."


    - Boris: "The male sex is to blame for the appalling proliferation of single mothers", The Spectator, 19 August 1995.

    Was he talking about himself there and projecting?
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 10,768
    edited May 26
    Pagan2 said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    HYUFD said:

    Given the MoreinCommon poll has a Boris led Conservatives retaking the lead on 26% to 23% for Reform and 22% for Labour you would expect him to not only win any by election he fights in a Tory held seat but also to increase the Conservative majority.

    However I cannot see him becoming a contender for the leadership before he is back in Parliament. If Kemi lost a VONC next autumn and was replaced by Cleverly or Jenrick they would see themselves as having that mandate not Boris to lead the party until the next GE

    The tories need Johnson to survive. We'll see if they have the will and guile to engineer it.
    I think you are right.

    Declaration: I am no fan of Boris and voted for Hunt against him for leader. I think I was right to at the time, and I certainly accept the many criticisms of Boris expressed in this thread. But what's the alternative? PM Farage?

    So far as BJ is concerned, he does have a few good characteristics.

    1. I don't believe he is personally prejudiced or racialist
    2. He has been absolutely solid on Ukraine and a great friend to President Zelenskyy

    These are things I care about. And can you say the same for Farage and Reform? I don't think so.

    So, if you don't want to see the British Right-of-Centre go the same way as the US, then Boris may be the only realistic solution. Fight fire with fire when it comes to competing with Farage. Do what Farage least wants to happen - the re-emergence of Boris as a competitor. Throw over the card table.

    Hardly ideal. But there we are. Pragmatism is the British way, after all.

    Boris coming back would be the end of Britain as a serious country.
    Britain is a serious country?
    Well yes quite.
    We are falling well behind now.
    Bucharest in Romania is as rich as Yorkshire now.
    Take London and the SE away and we are basically eastern european standards of living
    Yet there are thousands of eastern Europeans who live in Yorkshire and near zero Yorkshiremen who live in eastern Europe.

    Not to mention that London has a lower standard of living than Yorkshire:

    https://www.thetimes.com/comment/columnists/article/does-living-and-working-in-london-give-you-a-wealthier-lifestyle-c2fwsvxfl
    Those eastern europeans came when eastern europe was substantially poorer.
    And if free movement between the EU and the UK was reintroduced we all know which way the flow would be.

    Partly because what you claimed previously is bollox:

    GDP per capita 2025 (IMF):

    Germany $56k
    UK $55k
    France $47k
    Italy $41k
    Spain $36k
    Czechia $33k
    Slovakia $27k
    Poland $27k
    Hungary $25k
    Romania $21k
    Bulgaria $19k

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)_per_capita

    Alternatively, median wealth per adult 2024:

    UK $164k
    France $141k
    Italy $114k
    Spain $111k
    Germany $67k
    Slovakia $41k
    Hungary $26k
    Czechia $24k
    Bulgaria $23k
    Romania $22k
    Poland $20k

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_wealth_per_adult
    I find these sort of charts incredibly annoying because they are misleading, gdp per capita is a useful measure for individual countries to use to see if on the whole they are getting better. Between countries however I think they are actually not only useless but detrimental.

    My reasoning for this is that is for instance you use the basket of goods we use to calculate cpih you may well find

    Country A gdp per capita 50000$ basket of goods value = 1000$
    Country B gdp per capita 100000$ basket of goods value = 3000$

    So by purely gdp per capita measures people in country B are twice as well off whereas in reality because they have a cost of living 3 times higher

    Therefore for how far the working wage goes

    Country A realistically is 50
    Country B realistically is 33.33
    You want this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)_per_capita

    Even then, it's not particularly useful because GDP per capita does not correlate 1:1 with median income (PPP), which probably gives us a better feel for how the average person is getting on: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Median_income
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 55,421
    https://x.com/trump_repost/status/1926982801888305580

    We are still waiting for the Foreign Student Lists from Harvard so that we can determine, after a ridiculous expenditure of BILLIONS OF DOLLARS, how many radicalized lunatics, troublemakers all, should not be let back into our Country. Harvard is very slow in the presentation of these documents, and probably for good reason! The best thing Harvard has going for it is that they have shopped around and found the absolute best Judge (for them!) - But have no fear, the Government will, in the end, WIN!
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 27,674
    edited May 26
    Pagan2 said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    HYUFD said:

    Given the MoreinCommon poll has a Boris led Conservatives retaking the lead on 26% to 23% for Reform and 22% for Labour you would expect him to not only win any by election he fights in a Tory held seat but also to increase the Conservative majority.

    However I cannot see him becoming a contender for the leadership before he is back in Parliament. If Kemi lost a VONC next autumn and was replaced by Cleverly or Jenrick they would see themselves as having that mandate not Boris to lead the party until the next GE

    The tories need Johnson to survive. We'll see if they have the will and guile to engineer it.
    I think you are right.

    Declaration: I am no fan of Boris and voted for Hunt against him for leader. I think I was right to at the time, and I certainly accept the many criticisms of Boris expressed in this thread. But what's the alternative? PM Farage?

    So far as BJ is concerned, he does have a few good characteristics.

    1. I don't believe he is personally prejudiced or racialist
    2. He has been absolutely solid on Ukraine and a great friend to President Zelenskyy

    These are things I care about. And can you say the same for Farage and Reform? I don't think so.

    So, if you don't want to see the British Right-of-Centre go the same way as the US, then Boris may be the only realistic solution. Fight fire with fire when it comes to competing with Farage. Do what Farage least wants to happen - the re-emergence of Boris as a competitor. Throw over the card table.

    Hardly ideal. But there we are. Pragmatism is the British way, after all.

    Boris coming back would be the end of Britain as a serious country.
    Britain is a serious country?
    Well yes quite.
    We are falling well behind now.
    Bucharest in Romania is as rich as Yorkshire now.
    Take London and the SE away and we are basically eastern european standards of living
    Yet there are thousands of eastern Europeans who live in Yorkshire and near zero Yorkshiremen who live in eastern Europe.

    Not to mention that London has a lower standard of living than Yorkshire:

    https://www.thetimes.com/comment/columnists/article/does-living-and-working-in-london-give-you-a-wealthier-lifestyle-c2fwsvxfl
    Those eastern europeans came when eastern europe was substantially poorer.
    And if free movement between the EU and the UK was reintroduced we all know which way the flow would be.

    Partly because what you claimed previously is bollox:

    GDP per capita 2025 (IMF):

    Germany $56k
    UK $55k
    France $47k
    Italy $41k
    Spain $36k
    Czechia $33k
    Slovakia $27k
    Poland $27k
    Hungary $25k
    Romania $21k
    Bulgaria $19k

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)_per_capita

    Alternatively, median wealth per adult 2024:

    UK $164k
    France $141k
    Italy $114k
    Spain $111k
    Germany $67k
    Slovakia $41k
    Hungary $26k
    Czechia $24k
    Bulgaria $23k
    Romania $22k
    Poland $20k

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_wealth_per_adult
    I find these sort of charts incredibly annoying because they are misleading, gdp per capita is a useful measure for individual countries to use to see if on the whole they are getting better. Between countries however I think they are actually not only useless but detrimental.

    My reasoning for this is that is for instance you use the basket of goods we use to calculate cpih you may well find

    Country A gdp per capita 50000$ basket of goods value = 1000$
    Country B gdp per capita 100000$ basket of goods value = 3000$

    So by purely gdp per capita measures people in country B are twice as well off whereas in reality because they have a cost of living 3 times higher

    Therefore for how far the working wage goes

    Country A realistically is 50
    Country B realistically is 33.33
    Consumption per capita is an alternate measure.

    This is the ONS data for 2020, unfortunately nothing post covid and Ukraine:

    Germany 124
    UK 113
    France 110
    Italy 96
    Spain 85
    Czechia 83
    Poland 83
    Romania 80
    Slovakia 71
    Hungary 70
    Bulgaria 61

    https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/inflationandpriceindices/articles/actualindividualconsumptionperheadintheuk/2020

    What these various lists show is that if eastern European countries are going to 'overtake' the UK they will do so after already overtaking Spain, Italy and France and only shortly before they overtake Germany.

  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 77,750
    Taz said:

    Have you noticed how quiet it is out and about.
    My local pub seems to have had business fall off a cliff since the start of April.
    My local coffee shop is quiet when it used to be packed.
    Seaside resorts are noticeably quieter.
    Something is brewing out there and it aint good.

    Warm weather and people without children taking cheap foreign holidays before the school term ends and prices rocket for six weeks.

    But yes, I have noticed it's quieter out, but that is my rationalisation for it.
    Indeed. But this has been going on a while now. The woman at my local pub when i mentioned how quiet it was started ranting about Starmer for a couple of minutes. He really is universally hated.
    Your local pub, is it The Hammer and Sickle ?
    It could be LadyG's local.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 45,416

    Have you noticed how quiet it is out and about.
    My local pub seems to have had business fall off a cliff since the start of April.
    My local coffee shop is quiet when it used to be packed.
    Seaside resorts are noticeably quieter.
    Something is brewing out there and it aint good.

    Warm weather and people without children taking cheap foreign holidays before the school term ends and prices rocket for six weeks.

    But yes, I have noticed it's quieter out, but that is my rationalisation for it.
    Indeed. But this has been going on a while now. The woman at my local pub when i mentioned how quiet it was started ranting about Starmer for a couple of minutes. He really is universally hated.
    Antipathy towards Keir Starmer is not going to stop people going out for a bevy.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 30,891

    https://x.com/trump_repost/status/1926982801888305580

    We are still waiting for the Foreign Student Lists from Harvard so that we can determine, after a ridiculous expenditure of BILLIONS OF DOLLARS, how many radicalized lunatics, troublemakers all, should not be let back into our Country. Harvard is very slow in the presentation of these documents, and probably for good reason! The best thing Harvard has going for it is that they have shopped around and found the absolute best Judge (for them!) - But have no fear, the Government will, in the end, WIN!

    What is odd about Trump is that for all his MAGA rhetoric, he seems to be working from a list of all America's advantages, all the things that did make America great, and setting out to destroy them. Today it is the inwards brain drain of the world's best minds to American universities.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 45,416
    Pagan2 said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    HYUFD said:

    Given the MoreinCommon poll has a Boris led Conservatives retaking the lead on 26% to 23% for Reform and 22% for Labour you would expect him to not only win any by election he fights in a Tory held seat but also to increase the Conservative majority.

    However I cannot see him becoming a contender for the leadership before he is back in Parliament. If Kemi lost a VONC next autumn and was replaced by Cleverly or Jenrick they would see themselves as having that mandate not Boris to lead the party until the next GE

    The tories need Johnson to survive. We'll see if they have the will and guile to engineer it.
    I think you are right.

    Declaration: I am no fan of Boris and voted for Hunt against him for leader. I think I was right to at the time, and I certainly accept the many criticisms of Boris expressed in this thread. But what's the alternative? PM Farage?

    So far as BJ is concerned, he does have a few good characteristics.

    1. I don't believe he is personally prejudiced or racialist
    2. He has been absolutely solid on Ukraine and a great friend to President Zelenskyy

    These are things I care about. And can you say the same for Farage and Reform? I don't think so.

    So, if you don't want to see the British Right-of-Centre go the same way as the US, then Boris may be the only realistic solution. Fight fire with fire when it comes to competing with Farage. Do what Farage least wants to happen - the re-emergence of Boris as a competitor. Throw over the card table.

    Hardly ideal. But there we are. Pragmatism is the British way, after all.

    Boris coming back would be the end of Britain as a serious country.
    Britain is a serious country?
    Well yes quite.
    We are falling well behind now.
    Bucharest in Romania is as rich as Yorkshire now.
    Take London and the SE away and we are basically eastern european standards of living
    Yet there are thousands of eastern Europeans who live in Yorkshire and near zero Yorkshiremen who live in eastern Europe.

    Not to mention that London has a lower standard of living than Yorkshire:

    https://www.thetimes.com/comment/columnists/article/does-living-and-working-in-london-give-you-a-wealthier-lifestyle-c2fwsvxfl
    Those eastern europeans came when eastern europe was substantially poorer.
    And if free movement between the EU and the UK was reintroduced we all know which way the flow would be.

    Partly because what you claimed previously is bollox:

    GDP per capita 2025 (IMF):

    Germany $56k
    UK $55k
    France $47k
    Italy $41k
    Spain $36k
    Czechia $33k
    Slovakia $27k
    Poland $27k
    Hungary $25k
    Romania $21k
    Bulgaria $19k

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)_per_capita

    Alternatively, median wealth per adult 2024:

    UK $164k
    France $141k
    Italy $114k
    Spain $111k
    Germany $67k
    Slovakia $41k
    Hungary $26k
    Czechia $24k
    Bulgaria $23k
    Romania $22k
    Poland $20k

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_wealth_per_adult
    I find these sort of charts incredibly annoying because they are misleading, gdp per capita is a useful measure for individual countries to use to see if on the whole they are getting better. Between countries however I think they are actually not only useless but detrimental.

    My reasoning for this is that is for instance you use the basket of goods we use to calculate cpih you may well find

    Country A gdp per capita 50000$ basket of goods value = 1000$
    Country B gdp per capita 100000$ basket of goods value = 3000$

    So by purely gdp per capita measures people in country B are twice as well off whereas in reality because they have a cost of living 3 times higher

    Therefore for how far the working wage goes

    Country A realistically is 50
    Country B realistically is 33.33
    Is there a gap in the market for PPP adjusted GDP per capita?
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 54,929

    https://x.com/trump_repost/status/1926982801888305580

    We are still waiting for the Foreign Student Lists from Harvard so that we can determine, after a ridiculous expenditure of BILLIONS OF DOLLARS, how many radicalized lunatics, troublemakers all, should not be let back into our Country. Harvard is very slow in the presentation of these documents, and probably for good reason! The best thing Harvard has going for it is that they have shopped around and found the absolute best Judge (for them!) - But have no fear, the Government will, in the end, WIN!

    Harvard should just reply:

    "How many radicalized lunatics, troublemakers all, should not be let back into our Country?

    When the President of the US next goes abroad on a state visit, the answer will be:

    One. Donald Trump."
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 38,574

    https://x.com/trump_repost/status/1926982801888305580

    We are still waiting for the Foreign Student Lists from Harvard so that we can determine, after a ridiculous expenditure of BILLIONS OF DOLLARS, how many radicalized lunatics, troublemakers all, should not be let back into our Country. Harvard is very slow in the presentation of these documents, and probably for good reason! The best thing Harvard has going for it is that they have shopped around and found the absolute best Judge (for them!) - But have no fear, the Government will, in the end, WIN!

    Proving once again the Mad King is a clueless old fool

    Harvard is required to provide such information before any of the students can get a visa

    Maybe Musk DOGEd the list...
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 38,574
    It appears Kemi has once again raised her head above the parapet in another failed attempt to achieve relevance

    She did so this morning to parrot Russian talking points...

    How much longer can she last?
  • boulayboulay Posts: 6,239
    I have no idea, was just saying she must have gone nuts to slap the President of France like that when people could see.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 55,421
    Scott_xP said:

    It appears Kemi has once again raised her head above the parapet in another failed attempt to achieve relevance

    She did so this morning to parrot Russian talking points...

    How much longer can she last?

    Would you rejoice at the return of BoJo?
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 38,574
    @JAHeale

    Russian embassy now running Kemi Badenoch's comments across social media

    https://x.com/JAHeale/status/1926971422917730528
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 63,252
    boulay said:

    I have no idea, was just saying she must have gone nuts to slap the President of France like that when people could see.
    He probably likes it.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 27,411
    MattW said:

    This is my photo for today. It is an uncontrolled crossing on the Colchester Road in London, taken by the Ranty Highwayman (he is a highway designer) on his walk from J28 on the M25 to Marble Arch, as part of "May the month for walking" - surveying the infra as he went (including suggestions and context). This one has 35k vehicles per day, and a 50mph limit. It's a good way to get a top slice view; I used to enjoy walking half way across London, but I did it for architectural interest.



    "Just down from the sub station access is an uncontrolled crossing of the Colchester Road between Painesbrook Park and St. Neots Park (above). As well as the parks and people living both sides of the A12, there are primary schools here and Harold Wood station to the south, and as such, there are often people trying to cross here with over 35,000 vehicles a day and a 50mph speed limit."

    Here's his account (you need a cup, or a pot, of tea, and several digestives):
    https://therantyhighwayman.blogspot.com/2025/05/the-lonely-walk.html

    Typo - he goes from M25 J28 to Charing Cross, not Marble Arch.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 38,574

    https://x.com/trump_repost/status/1926982801888305580

    We are still waiting for the Foreign Student Lists from Harvard so that we can determine, after a ridiculous expenditure of BILLIONS OF DOLLARS, how many radicalized lunatics, troublemakers all, should not be let back into our Country. Harvard is very slow in the presentation of these documents, and probably for good reason! The best thing Harvard has going for it is that they have shopped around and found the absolute best Judge (for them!) - But have no fear, the Government will, in the end, WIN!

    What is odd about Trump is that for all his MAGA rhetoric, he seems to be working from a list of all America's advantages, all the things that did make America great, and setting out to destroy them. Today it is the inwards brain drain of the world's best minds to American universities.
    He also said overnight "We want to make the AI and the weapons, not the shirts and socks" while talking about manufacturing 'returning' to the US

    WTF does he think the US Military Industrial Complex does today?

    His brains are leaking out of his ears, on live TV...
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 38,574
    He almost sounds sane if you stop reading after “Happy Memorial Day”

    https://bsky.app/profile/darrigomelanie.bsky.social/post/3lq35mquz722s
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 51,582

    Dura_Ace said:

    HYUFD said:

    Given the MoreinCommon poll has a Boris led Conservatives retaking the lead on 26% to 23% for Reform and 22% for Labour you would expect him to not only win any by election he fights in a Tory held seat but also to increase the Conservative majority.

    However I cannot see him becoming a contender for the leadership before he is back in Parliament. If Kemi lost a VONC next autumn and was replaced by Cleverly or Jenrick they would see themselves as having that mandate not Boris to lead the party until the next GE

    The tories need Johnson to survive. We'll see if they have the will and guile to engineer it.
    I think you are right.

    Declaration: I am no fan of Boris and voted for Hunt against him for leader. I think I was right to at the time, and I certainly accept the many criticisms of Boris expressed in this thread. But what's the alternative? PM Farage?

    So far as BJ is concerned, he does have a few good characteristics.

    1. I don't believe he is personally prejudiced or racialist
    2. He has been absolutely solid on Ukraine and a great friend to President Zelenskyy

    These are things I care about. And can you say the same for Farage and Reform? I don't think so.

    So, if you don't want to see the British Right-of-Centre go the same way as the US, then Boris may be the only realistic solution. Fight fire with fire when it comes to competing with Farage. Do what Farage least wants to happen - the re-emergence of Boris as a competitor. Throw over the card table.

    Hardly ideal. But there we are. Pragmatism is the British way, after all.

    Boris coming back would be the end of Britain as a serious country.
    Britain is a serious country?
    Well yes quite.
    We are falling well behind now.
    Bucharest in Romania is as rich as Yorkshire now.
    Take London and the SE away and we are basically eastern european standards of living
    Yet there are thousands of eastern Europeans who live in Yorkshire and near zero Yorkshiremen who live in eastern Europe.

    Not to mention that London has a lower standard of living than Yorkshire:

    https://www.thetimes.com/comment/columnists/article/does-living-and-working-in-london-give-you-a-wealthier-lifestyle-c2fwsvxfl
    Those eastern europeans came when eastern europe was substantially poorer.
    And if free movement between the EU and the UK was reintroduced we all know which way the flow would be.

    Partly because what you claimed previously is bollox:

    GDP per capita 2025 (IMF):

    Germany $56k
    UK $55k
    France $47k
    Italy $41k
    Spain $36k
    Czechia $33k
    Slovakia $27k
    Poland $27k
    Hungary $25k
    Romania $21k
    Bulgaria $19k

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)_per_capita

    Alternatively, median wealth per adult 2024:

    UK $164k
    France $141k
    Italy $114k
    Spain $111k
    Germany $67k
    Slovakia $41k
    Hungary $26k
    Czechia $24k
    Bulgaria $23k
    Romania $22k
    Poland $20k

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_wealth_per_adult
    On a PPP basis, Poland is fast gaining on the UK, at approximately $49,464 per capita GDP, compareed to the UK ($58,906)
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 127,799
    edited May 26

    Dura_Ace said:

    HYUFD said:

    Given the MoreinCommon poll has a Boris led Conservatives retaking the lead on 26% to 23% for Reform and 22% for Labour you would expect him to not only win any by election he fights in a Tory held seat but also to increase the Conservative majority.

    However I cannot see him becoming a contender for the leadership before he is back in Parliament. If Kemi lost a VONC next autumn and was replaced by Cleverly or Jenrick they would see themselves as having that mandate not Boris to lead the party until the next GE

    The tories need Johnson to survive. We'll see if they have the will and guile to engineer it.
    I think you are right.

    Declaration: I am no fan of Boris and voted for Hunt against him for leader. I think I was right to at the time, and I certainly accept the many criticisms of Boris expressed in this thread. But what's the alternative? PM Farage?

    So far as BJ is concerned, he does have a few good characteristics.

    1. I don't believe he is personally prejudiced or racialist
    2. He has been absolutely solid on Ukraine and a great friend to President Zelenskyy

    These are things I care about. And can you say the same for Farage and Reform? I don't think so.

    So, if you don't want to see the British Right-of-Centre go the same way as the US, then Boris may be the only realistic solution. Fight fire with fire when it comes to competing with Farage. Do what Farage least wants to happen - the re-emergence of Boris as a competitor. Throw over the card table.

    Hardly ideal. But there we are. Pragmatism is the British way, after all.

    Boris coming back would be the end of Britain as a serious country.
    Britain is a serious country?
    Well yes quite.
    We are falling well behind now.
    Bucharest in Romania is as rich as Yorkshire now.
    Take London and the SE away and we are basically eastern european standards of living
    Yet there are thousands of eastern Europeans who live in Yorkshire and near zero Yorkshiremen who live in eastern Europe.

    Not to mention that London has a lower standard of living than Yorkshire:

    https://www.thetimes.com/comment/columnists/article/does-living-and-working-in-london-give-you-a-wealthier-lifestyle-c2fwsvxfl
    Those eastern europeans came when eastern europe was substantially poorer.
    And if free movement between the EU and the UK was reintroduced we all know which way the flow would be.

    Partly because what you claimed previously is bollox:

    GDP per capita 2025 (IMF):

    Germany $56k
    UK $55k
    France $47k
    Italy $41k
    Spain $36k
    Czechia $33k
    Slovakia $27k
    Poland $27k
    Hungary $25k
    Romania $21k
    Bulgaria $19k

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)_per_capita

    Alternatively, median wealth per adult 2024:

    UK $164k
    France $141k
    Italy $114k
    Spain $111k
    Germany $67k
    Slovakia $41k
    Hungary $26k
    Czechia $24k
    Bulgaria $23k
    Romania $22k
    Poland $20k

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_wealth_per_adult
    Interestingly that wiki list gives USA wealth per adult as:

    $112,157 median
    $564,862 mean

    compared with UK wealth per adult:

    $163,515 median
    $350,264 mean

    illustrating how much greater wealth inequality is in the USA.
    UK average median house prices are often higher than US average median house prices that is why (beyond a few exceptions like California and New York city, DC and Massachussetts and Hawaii which are extremely expensive to buy property in and therefore whack up the mean, though they are on a par with London still anyway).

    US average income is higher than UK average income, though again with inner London the only exception here that can compete with US salaries. However UK wealth is higher because of home owners with more expensive assets here
  • FishingFishing Posts: 5,578
    edited May 26

    Dura_Ace said:

    HYUFD said:

    Given the MoreinCommon poll has a Boris led Conservatives retaking the lead on 26% to 23% for Reform and 22% for Labour you would expect him to not only win any by election he fights in a Tory held seat but also to increase the Conservative majority.

    However I cannot see him becoming a contender for the leadership before he is back in Parliament. If Kemi lost a VONC next autumn and was replaced by Cleverly or Jenrick they would see themselves as having that mandate not Boris to lead the party until the next GE

    The tories need Johnson to survive. We'll see if they have the will and guile to engineer it.
    I think you are right.

    Declaration: I am no fan of Boris and voted for Hunt against him for leader. I think I was right to at the time, and I certainly accept the many criticisms of Boris expressed in this thread. But what's the alternative? PM Farage?

    So far as BJ is concerned, he does have a few good characteristics.

    1. I don't believe he is personally prejudiced or racialist
    2. He has been absolutely solid on Ukraine and a great friend to President Zelenskyy

    These are things I care about. And can you say the same for Farage and Reform? I don't think so.

    So, if you don't want to see the British Right-of-Centre go the same way as the US, then Boris may be the only realistic solution. Fight fire with fire when it comes to competing with Farage. Do what Farage least wants to happen - the re-emergence of Boris as a competitor. Throw over the card table.

    Hardly ideal. But there we are. Pragmatism is the British way, after all.

    Boris coming back would be the end of Britain as a serious country.
    Britain is a serious country?
    Well yes quite.
    We are falling well behind now.
    Bucharest in Romania is as rich as Yorkshire now.
    Take London and the SE away and we are basically eastern european standards of living
    Yet there are thousands of eastern Europeans who live in Yorkshire and near zero Yorkshiremen who live in eastern Europe.

    Not to mention that London has a lower standard of living than Yorkshire:

    https://www.thetimes.com/comment/columnists/article/does-living-and-working-in-london-give-you-a-wealthier-lifestyle-c2fwsvxfl
    Those eastern europeans came when eastern europe was substantially poorer.
    And if free movement between the EU and the UK was reintroduced we all know which way the flow would be.

    Partly because what you claimed previously is bollox:

    GDP per capita 2025 (IMF):

    Germany $56k
    UK $55k
    France $47k
    Italy $41k
    Spain $36k
    Czechia $33k
    Slovakia $27k
    Poland $27k
    Hungary $25k
    Romania $21k
    Bulgaria $19k

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)_per_capita

    Alternatively, median wealth per adult 2024:

    UK $164k
    France $141k
    Italy $114k
    Spain $111k
    Germany $67k
    Slovakia $41k
    Hungary $26k
    Czechia $24k
    Bulgaria $23k
    Romania $22k
    Poland $20k

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_wealth_per_adult
    True and there's another vital reason why we would have much higher immigration from young Europeans than you'd expect given the relative incomes - the magnetic pull of London as Europe's business and tech startup capital and English as the world's language.

    Many young foreigners come here because learning the world's most important language is vital to their future career prospects, and because it's much easier to fit in in a country where you already half-speak the language anyway, having learned it at school.

    Also, if the moronic Starmer government really is stupid enough to rejoin Erasmus, we can expect a huge number of EU students desperate to access our world-leading universities at the same time as improving their English. I spent some time in a decent European university a few weeks ago, and a large proportion of the students I met there were desperate to avail themselves of our higher education. Whereas in the few years since we left Erasmus, I've heard no more than a handful of English students who wished we were still in it, and some professors who've said how much money our higher education system has saved since we left.

    So for all those reasons, we're better off keeping control of our own borders as much as possible.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 55,407
    Eabhal said:

    MattW said:

    Taz said:

    MattW said:

    Nigelb said:

    malcolmg said:

    Nigelb said:

    TimS said:

    Eabhal said:

    What is going to happen with energy today? We're already at 120%, exporting to the continent and the sun is barely up yet.

    I guess we'll be paying lots of turbines to turn off. What a waste.

    And we’re still burning gas, presumably down South because the grid can’t get the electricity from the wind farms quickly enough.

    0.41gw going into pumped storage.

    We’re also, oddly, buying electricity from France up the interconnector at the moment.
    Another good illustration of getting stuff built rather than messing around with planning enquiries and legal challenges for half a decade.

    Far more grid infrastructure could be built by now if that were the case.
    Sure you would love a tower in your garden
    I live in West Yorkshir, Malc.
    Pylons have crisscrossed the landscape for decades.
    It's a complete non issue for 95% - Farage and other bits of the political and media Right scraping around for a marketing narrative, since they have no credible policies.

    Not so long ago RefUK were in support of meeting net-zero.

    And now Mayor of Lincolnshire is supporting investment in Offshore Wind - that old Conservatve pragmatism.
    https://www.desmog.com/2025/05/23/anti-net-zero-reform-mayor-andrea-jenkyns-urges-offshore-wind-investment/
    Why do people,frame this as just being the right against pylons.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cgrlx7z64n4o
    I think because that is how the Right frame it themselves - it's an arm of both Nimbyism and the Reform narrative, plus their media drone on about it endlessly.

    For the MP you link, Adrian Ramsey, TBF to him he is asking for alternatives to be considered ie an offshore grid and buried cables, in advance of pylon lines. I don't see either of those as viable - one for national secutity and fishing reasons, the other because of cost and maintainability.

    I grew up with a pylon in our family paddock in Derbyshire, and I don't see any problem.
    I'd much rather a pylon than a turbine. The visual impact of something white and moving is 10x worse, and then you've got all the vehicle tracks trashing the moor.

    What's weird is that they bury the cables running off the hill from the turbines. In my view the hill is already bespoiled by the turbines, so it's a massive cost for not much gain. I apply the same logic for running the Beauly-Denny line down the A9 corridor - it's already got a dual carriageway running down it, so there shouldn't be planning worries (in terms of landscape) if there is already significant infrastructure in place.

    Like everything, infrastructure in the UK has a much bigger visual impact than elsewhere because of our lack of trees. The 275kv/400kv lines running through the north-east of Scotland make scarcely any impact all where they run through wooded areas.
    The number of posters complaining about SSEN’s proliferation of “mega pylons” on the A90 seemed to have taken yet another leap this morning when I was driving to Aberdeen. They are seriously unpopular with the locals.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 54,287

    "I've got a brilliant new strategy, which is to make so many gaffes that nobody knows which one to concentrate on. [...] They cease to be newsworthy, you completely out-general the media in that way, and they despair. [...] You shell them, you pepper the media... you've got to pepper their positions with so many gaffes that they're confused. It's like a helicopter throwing out chaff, and then you steal on quietly and drop your depth charges wherever you want to drop them."

    - Boris on BBC Booktalk in 2006.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 38,574


    "I've got a brilliant new strategy, which is to make so many gaffes that nobody knows which one to concentrate on. [...] They cease to be newsworthy, you completely out-general the media in that way, and they despair. [...] You shell them, you pepper the media... you've got to pepper their positions with so many gaffes that they're confused. It's like a helicopter throwing out chaff, and then you steal on quietly and drop your depth charges wherever you want to drop them."

    - Boris on BBC Booktalk in 2006.

    Donny is doing the same thing

    The problem though is that every single gaffe is newsworthy. Every single one says "This guy should not be in charge, of anything"
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 45,416
    HYUFD said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    HYUFD said:

    Given the MoreinCommon poll has a Boris led Conservatives retaking the lead on 26% to 23% for Reform and 22% for Labour you would expect him to not only win any by election he fights in a Tory held seat but also to increase the Conservative majority.

    However I cannot see him becoming a contender for the leadership before he is back in Parliament. If Kemi lost a VONC next autumn and was replaced by Cleverly or Jenrick they would see themselves as having that mandate not Boris to lead the party until the next GE

    The tories need Johnson to survive. We'll see if they have the will and guile to engineer it.
    I think you are right.

    Declaration: I am no fan of Boris and voted for Hunt against him for leader. I think I was right to at the time, and I certainly accept the many criticisms of Boris expressed in this thread. But what's the alternative? PM Farage?

    So far as BJ is concerned, he does have a few good characteristics.

    1. I don't believe he is personally prejudiced or racialist
    2. He has been absolutely solid on Ukraine and a great friend to President Zelenskyy

    These are things I care about. And can you say the same for Farage and Reform? I don't think so.

    So, if you don't want to see the British Right-of-Centre go the same way as the US, then Boris may be the only realistic solution. Fight fire with fire when it comes to competing with Farage. Do what Farage least wants to happen - the re-emergence of Boris as a competitor. Throw over the card table.

    Hardly ideal. But there we are. Pragmatism is the British way, after all.

    Boris coming back would be the end of Britain as a serious country.
    Britain is a serious country?
    Well yes quite.
    We are falling well behind now.
    Bucharest in Romania is as rich as Yorkshire now.
    Take London and the SE away and we are basically eastern european standards of living
    Yet there are thousands of eastern Europeans who live in Yorkshire and near zero Yorkshiremen who live in eastern Europe.

    Not to mention that London has a lower standard of living than Yorkshire:

    https://www.thetimes.com/comment/columnists/article/does-living-and-working-in-london-give-you-a-wealthier-lifestyle-c2fwsvxfl
    Those eastern europeans came when eastern europe was substantially poorer.
    And if free movement between the EU and the UK was reintroduced we all know which way the flow would be.

    Partly because what you claimed previously is bollox:

    GDP per capita 2025 (IMF):

    Germany $56k
    UK $55k
    France $47k
    Italy $41k
    Spain $36k
    Czechia $33k
    Slovakia $27k
    Poland $27k
    Hungary $25k
    Romania $21k
    Bulgaria $19k

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)_per_capita

    Alternatively, median wealth per adult 2024:

    UK $164k
    France $141k
    Italy $114k
    Spain $111k
    Germany $67k
    Slovakia $41k
    Hungary $26k
    Czechia $24k
    Bulgaria $23k
    Romania $22k
    Poland $20k

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_wealth_per_adult
    Interestingly that wiki list gives USA wealth per adult as:

    $112,157 median
    $564,862 mean

    compared with UK wealth per adult:

    $163,515 median
    $350,264 mean

    illustrating how much greater wealth inequality is in the USA.
    UK average median house prices are often higher than US average median house prices that is why (beyond a few exceptions like California and New York city, DC and Massachussetts and Hawaii which are extremely expensive to buy property in and therefore whack up the mean, though they are on a par with London still anyway).

    US average income is higher than UK average income, though again with inner London the only exception here that can compete with US salaries. However UK wealth is higher because of home owners with more expensive assets here
    High house prices are good for wealth but not so good for standard of living because it means a large % of income goes on accommodation costs.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 55,421
    Scott_xP said:


    "I've got a brilliant new strategy, which is to make so many gaffes that nobody knows which one to concentrate on. [...] They cease to be newsworthy, you completely out-general the media in that way, and they despair. [...] You shell them, you pepper the media... you've got to pepper their positions with so many gaffes that they're confused. It's like a helicopter throwing out chaff, and then you steal on quietly and drop your depth charges wherever you want to drop them."

    - Boris on BBC Booktalk in 2006.

    Donny is doing the same thing

    The problem though is that every single gaffe is newsworthy. Every single one says "This guy should not be in charge, of anything"
    Trump rose to the top of the American political system because he's the most qualified to be commander in chief. He's actually capable of leading the public towards his positions in a way that lesser politicians, who rely on focus groups to know what to say, can only dream of.
  • SonofContrarianSonofContrarian Posts: 170
    Liverpool police said don't bring flares..that was obviously ignored..😏👌
  • boulayboulay Posts: 6,239

    Liverpool police said don't bring flares..that was obviously ignored..😏👌

    That was the Liverpool Fashion Police, not the bizzies.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 18,781
    Scott_xP said:

    @JAHeale

    Russian embassy now running Kemi Badenoch's comments across social media

    https://x.com/JAHeale/status/1926971422917730528

    If Kemi B were seen as having the remotest chance of becoming PM, this would matter.

    But she isn't, so it probably doesn't.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 45,416

    Scott_xP said:


    "I've got a brilliant new strategy, which is to make so many gaffes that nobody knows which one to concentrate on. [...] They cease to be newsworthy, you completely out-general the media in that way, and they despair. [...] You shell them, you pepper the media... you've got to pepper their positions with so many gaffes that they're confused. It's like a helicopter throwing out chaff, and then you steal on quietly and drop your depth charges wherever you want to drop them."

    - Boris on BBC Booktalk in 2006.

    Donny is doing the same thing

    The problem though is that every single gaffe is newsworthy. Every single one says "This guy should not be in charge, of anything"
    Trump rose to the top of the American political system because he's the most qualified to be commander in chief. He's actually capable of leading the public towards his positions in a way that lesser politicians, who rely on focus groups to know what to say, can only dream of.
    He didn't. He made it back due to (i) his cultish base scaring the GOP into submission and (ii) high inflation under the Dems and (iii) Biden spiking their drink by hanging on until the last minute.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 43,699

    Scott_xP said:

    @JAHeale

    Russian embassy now running Kemi Badenoch's comments across social media

    https://x.com/JAHeale/status/1926971422917730528

    If Kemi B were seen as having the remotest chance of becoming PM, this would matter.

    But she isn't, so it probably doesn't.
    James Heale
    @JAHeale
    ·
    1h
    Tory wag: “First endorsement she's had for a long time to be fair”
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 54,929
    boulay said:

    Liverpool police said don't bring flares..that was obviously ignored..😏👌

    That was the Liverpool Fashion Police, not the bizzies.
    How else can you be expected to send up an alert about a hideous tracky top and bottoms combo?
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 54,776
    edited May 26
    kinabalu said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    HYUFD said:

    Given the MoreinCommon poll has a Boris led Conservatives retaking the lead on 26% to 23% for Reform and 22% for Labour you would expect him to not only win any by election he fights in a Tory held seat but also to increase the Conservative majority.

    However I cannot see him becoming a contender for the leadership before he is back in Parliament. If Kemi lost a VONC next autumn and was replaced by Cleverly or Jenrick they would see themselves as having that mandate not Boris to lead the party until the next GE

    The tories need Johnson to survive. We'll see if they have the will and guile to engineer it.
    I think you are right.

    Declaration: I am no fan of Boris and voted for Hunt against him for leader. I think I was right to at the time, and I certainly accept the many criticisms of Boris expressed in this thread. But what's the alternative? PM Farage?

    So far as BJ is concerned, he does have a few good characteristics.

    1. I don't believe he is personally prejudiced or racialist
    2. He has been absolutely solid on Ukraine and a great friend to President Zelenskyy

    These are things I care about. And can you say the same for Farage and Reform? I don't think so.

    So, if you don't want to see the British Right-of-Centre go the same way as the US, then Boris may be the only realistic solution. Fight fire with fire when it comes to competing with Farage. Do what Farage least wants to happen - the re-emergence of Boris as a competitor. Throw over the card table.

    Hardly ideal. But there we are. Pragmatism is the British way, after all.

    Boris coming back would be the end of Britain as a serious country.
    Britain is a serious country?
    Well yes quite.
    We are falling well behind now.
    Bucharest in Romania is as rich as Yorkshire now.
    Take London and the SE away and we are basically eastern european standards of living
    Yet there are thousands of eastern Europeans who live in Yorkshire and near zero Yorkshiremen who live in eastern Europe.

    Not to mention that London has a lower standard of living than Yorkshire:

    https://www.thetimes.com/comment/columnists/article/does-living-and-working-in-london-give-you-a-wealthier-lifestyle-c2fwsvxfl
    Those eastern europeans came when eastern europe was substantially poorer.
    And if free movement between the EU and the UK was reintroduced we all know which way the flow would be.

    Partly because what you claimed previously is bollox:

    GDP per capita 2025 (IMF):

    Germany $56k
    UK $55k
    France $47k
    Italy $41k
    Spain $36k
    Czechia $33k
    Slovakia $27k
    Poland $27k
    Hungary $25k
    Romania $21k
    Bulgaria $19k

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)_per_capita

    Alternatively, median wealth per adult 2024:

    UK $164k
    France $141k
    Italy $114k
    Spain $111k
    Germany $67k
    Slovakia $41k
    Hungary $26k
    Czechia $24k
    Bulgaria $23k
    Romania $22k
    Poland $20k

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_wealth_per_adult
    I find these sort of charts incredibly annoying because they are misleading, gdp per capita is a useful measure for individual countries to use to see if on the whole they are getting better. Between countries however I think they are actually not only useless but detrimental.

    My reasoning for this is that is for instance you use the basket of goods we use to calculate cpih you may well find

    Country A gdp per capita 50000$ basket of goods value = 1000$
    Country B gdp per capita 100000$ basket of goods value = 3000$

    So by purely gdp per capita measures people in country B are twice as well off whereas in reality because they have a cost of living 3 times higher

    Therefore for how far the working wage goes

    Country A realistically is 50
    Country B realistically is 33.33
    Is there a gap in the market for PPP adjusted GDP per capita?
    https://statisticstimes.com/economy/european-countries-by-gdp-per-capita.php

    Has a PPP adjusted table -

    PPP Adjusted GDP per Capita for European Countries (2025)

    Country GDP per Capita (PPP, Int. $)
    Luxembourg154,915
    Ireland131,548
    Norway106,540
    Switzerland98,145
    Denmark85,789
    Netherlands83,823
    San Marino82,579
    Iceland80,318
    Sweden74,143
    Austria74,976
    Belgium75,187
    Malta75,822
    Germany72,660
    Finland67,074
    France67,658
    United Kingdom64,384
    Italy62,603
    Slovenia58,153
    Spain56,659
    Lithuania55,995
    Czech Republic59,205
    Cyprus59,858
    Estonia49,697
    Portugal51,257
    Poland54,498
    Slovakia47,439
    Romania49,944
    Hungary49,147
    Latvia45,447
    Croatia51,224
    Greece43,801
    Bulgaria41,506
    Montenegro33,620
    Belarus33,603
    Serbia30,909
    North Macedonia28,720
    Albania22,730
    Bosnia and Herzegovina22,611
    Moldova19,909
    Ukraine20,757
    Kosovo17,835
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,963
    Scott_xP said:

    He almost sounds sane if you stop reading after “Happy Memorial Day”

    https://bsky.app/profile/darrigomelanie.bsky.social/post/3lq35mquz722s

    "21,000,000 MILLION PEOPLE"

    So 21 trillion people.

    That's a lot.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 45,416
    Scott_xP said:

    He almost sounds sane if you stop reading after “Happy Memorial Day”

    https://bsky.app/profile/darrigomelanie.bsky.social/post/3lq35mquz722s

    It used to be that American presidents on such occasions would say things that sought to create a blandly positive unified glow across the nation. I'll take a lot of persuading that Trump's departure from this is an improvement.
  • TazTaz Posts: 18,545

    Liverpool police said don't bring flares..that was obviously ignored..😏👌

    Look at all these bellends in New Street Station. As much as I despise AVFC I’d far rather locals supported a local team than glory hunted the Mickey Mousers

    I know some will be from the pool but most won’t be.

    It was the same in Wolverhampton too.

    https://x.com/lylebignon/status/1926951906192052236?s=61
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 38,574

    Trump rose to the top of the American political system because he's the most qualified to be commander in chief. He's actually capable of leading the public towards his positions in a way that lesser politicians, who rely on focus groups to know what to say, can only dream of.

    None of what you just said is true...
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 54,776

    Scott_xP said:

    He almost sounds sane if you stop reading after “Happy Memorial Day”

    https://bsky.app/profile/darrigomelanie.bsky.social/post/3lq35mquz722s

    "21,000,000 MILLION PEOPLE"

    So 21 trillion people.

    That's a lot.
    Isn’t that how many Trans Gay Illegal Immigrant Alien AIs cross the Channel, in small boats, before lunch? Each day, that is.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 18,988
    Taz said:

    Liverpool police said don't bring flares..that was obviously ignored..😏👌

    Look at all these bellends in New Street Station. As much as I despise AVFC I’d far rather locals supported a local team than glory hunted the Mickey Mousers

    I know some will be from the pool but most won’t be.

    It was the same in Wolverhampton too.

    https://x.com/lylebignon/status/1926951906192052236?s=61
    When swindon had their one season in the premiership the most depressing thing was all the local fans of ‘x’ or ‘y’ turning out when their club was in Town. There’s no rule that says you have to support you home team, but my god I can’t stand those who just support the most successful team at the time.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 54,776
    kinabalu said:

    Scott_xP said:


    "I've got a brilliant new strategy, which is to make so many gaffes that nobody knows which one to concentrate on. [...] They cease to be newsworthy, you completely out-general the media in that way, and they despair. [...] You shell them, you pepper the media... you've got to pepper their positions with so many gaffes that they're confused. It's like a helicopter throwing out chaff, and then you steal on quietly and drop your depth charges wherever you want to drop them."

    - Boris on BBC Booktalk in 2006.

    Donny is doing the same thing

    The problem though is that every single gaffe is newsworthy. Every single one says "This guy should not be in charge, of anything"
    Trump rose to the top of the American political system because he's the most qualified to be commander in chief. He's actually capable of leading the public towards his positions in a way that lesser politicians, who rely on focus groups to know what to say, can only dream of.
    He didn't. He made it back due to (i) his cultish base scaring the GOP into submission and (ii) high inflation under the Dems and (iii) Biden spiking their drink by hanging on until the last minute.
    More that the nutball right self radicalised in a spiral, going through a sound finance phase (Tea Party) to moon howling.

    The various groupings saw that their barrier to power was other non-batshit Republicans - see Mitt Romney etc. So they concentrated on gathering power at local level and working their way up.

    In the more general sphere, they did similar in local elections for various minor offices and the lowest levels of the judicial system.

    The pyramid of loons reached ever higher. And higher

    Trump lucked out on reaching out to these people at the right time. They broke through the dam of the Republican establishment to give him the first nomination. And he, as the nominee and then President gave them full control of the party.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 14,632
    Afternoon all :)

    There has been a clear change here in East Ham - in 2005, we had a lot of Poles and Lithuanians move into the area. They quickly set up food shops and established communities but they are now gone.

    We have a lot of Romanians and Bulgarians now along with a growing community of Sub-Saharan Africans from the ex-Portuguese colonies who can come into Europe via Portugal quite easily - not sure if that loophole still exists. Some Afghanis but not many Somalis.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,963

    Taz said:

    Liverpool police said don't bring flares..that was obviously ignored..😏👌

    Look at all these bellends in New Street Station. As much as I despise AVFC I’d far rather locals supported a local team than glory hunted the Mickey Mousers

    I know some will be from the pool but most won’t be.

    It was the same in Wolverhampton too.

    https://x.com/lylebignon/status/1926951906192052236?s=61
    When swindon had their one season in the premiership the most depressing thing was all the local fans of ‘x’ or ‘y’ turning out when their club was in Town. There’s no rule that says you have to support you home team, but my god I can’t stand those who just support the most successful team at the time.
    I remember seeing a young lad in Coventry wearing a Blackburn top the year after they won the league.

    I'm guessing that was a short-lived relationship.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 55,421

    kinabalu said:

    Scott_xP said:


    "I've got a brilliant new strategy, which is to make so many gaffes that nobody knows which one to concentrate on. [...] They cease to be newsworthy, you completely out-general the media in that way, and they despair. [...] You shell them, you pepper the media... you've got to pepper their positions with so many gaffes that they're confused. It's like a helicopter throwing out chaff, and then you steal on quietly and drop your depth charges wherever you want to drop them."

    - Boris on BBC Booktalk in 2006.

    Donny is doing the same thing

    The problem though is that every single gaffe is newsworthy. Every single one says "This guy should not be in charge, of anything"
    Trump rose to the top of the American political system because he's the most qualified to be commander in chief. He's actually capable of leading the public towards his positions in a way that lesser politicians, who rely on focus groups to know what to say, can only dream of.
    He didn't. He made it back due to (i) his cultish base scaring the GOP into submission and (ii) high inflation under the Dems and (iii) Biden spiking their drink by hanging on until the last minute.
    More that the nutball right self radicalised in a spiral, going through a sound finance phase (Tea Party) to moon howling.

    The various groupings saw that their barrier to power was other non-batshit Republicans - see Mitt Romney etc. So they concentrated on gathering power at local level and working their way up.

    In the more general sphere, they did similar in local elections for various minor offices and the lowest levels of the judicial system.

    The pyramid of loons reached ever higher. And higher

    Trump lucked out on reaching out to these people at the right time. They broke through the dam of the Republican establishment to give him the first nomination. And he, as the nominee and then President gave them full control of the party.
    But he hasn't given them full control of the party. Trump has imposed positions on them that are not at all in line with things they have been arguing for over the years. Trump is a very skilled politician, which you can see most clearly in how he handled the question of abortion.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 27,674

    kinabalu said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    HYUFD said:

    Given the MoreinCommon poll has a Boris led Conservatives retaking the lead on 26% to 23% for Reform and 22% for Labour you would expect him to not only win any by election he fights in a Tory held seat but also to increase the Conservative majority.

    However I cannot see him becoming a contender for the leadership before he is back in Parliament. If Kemi lost a VONC next autumn and was replaced by Cleverly or Jenrick they would see themselves as having that mandate not Boris to lead the party until the next GE

    The tories need Johnson to survive. We'll see if they have the will and guile to engineer it.
    I think you are right.

    Declaration: I am no fan of Boris and voted for Hunt against him for leader. I think I was right to at the time, and I certainly accept the many criticisms of Boris expressed in this thread. But what's the alternative? PM Farage?

    So far as BJ is concerned, he does have a few good characteristics.

    1. I don't believe he is personally prejudiced or racialist
    2. He has been absolutely solid on Ukraine and a great friend to President Zelenskyy

    These are things I care about. And can you say the same for Farage and Reform? I don't think so.

    So, if you don't want to see the British Right-of-Centre go the same way as the US, then Boris may be the only realistic solution. Fight fire with fire when it comes to competing with Farage. Do what Farage least wants to happen - the re-emergence of Boris as a competitor. Throw over the card table.

    Hardly ideal. But there we are. Pragmatism is the British way, after all.

    Boris coming back would be the end of Britain as a serious country.
    Britain is a serious country?
    Well yes quite.
    We are falling well behind now.
    Bucharest in Romania is as rich as Yorkshire now.
    Take London and the SE away and we are basically eastern european standards of living
    Yet there are thousands of eastern Europeans who live in Yorkshire and near zero Yorkshiremen who live in eastern Europe.

    Not to mention that London has a lower standard of living than Yorkshire:

    https://www.thetimes.com/comment/columnists/article/does-living-and-working-in-london-give-you-a-wealthier-lifestyle-c2fwsvxfl
    Those eastern europeans came when eastern europe was substantially poorer.
    And if free movement between the EU and the UK was reintroduced we all know which way the flow would be.

    Partly because what you claimed previously is bollox:

    GDP per capita 2025 (IMF):

    Germany $56k
    UK $55k
    France $47k
    Italy $41k
    Spain $36k
    Czechia $33k
    Slovakia $27k
    Poland $27k
    Hungary $25k
    Romania $21k
    Bulgaria $19k

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)_per_capita

    Alternatively, median wealth per adult 2024:

    UK $164k
    France $141k
    Italy $114k
    Spain $111k
    Germany $67k
    Slovakia $41k
    Hungary $26k
    Czechia $24k
    Bulgaria $23k
    Romania $22k
    Poland $20k

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_wealth_per_adult
    I find these sort of charts incredibly annoying because they are misleading, gdp per capita is a useful measure for individual countries to use to see if on the whole they are getting better. Between countries however I think they are actually not only useless but detrimental.

    My reasoning for this is that is for instance you use the basket of goods we use to calculate cpih you may well find

    Country A gdp per capita 50000$ basket of goods value = 1000$
    Country B gdp per capita 100000$ basket of goods value = 3000$

    So by purely gdp per capita measures people in country B are twice as well off whereas in reality because they have a cost of living 3 times higher

    Therefore for how far the working wage goes

    Country A realistically is 50
    Country B realistically is 33.33
    Is there a gap in the market for PPP adjusted GDP per capita?
    https://statisticstimes.com/economy/european-countries-by-gdp-per-capita.php

    Has a PPP adjusted table -

    PPP Adjusted GDP per Capita for European Countries (2025)

    Country GDP per Capita (PPP, Int. $)
    Luxembourg154,915
    Ireland131,548
    Norway106,540
    Switzerland98,145
    Denmark85,789
    Netherlands83,823
    San Marino82,579
    Iceland80,318
    Sweden74,143
    Austria74,976
    Belgium75,187
    Malta75,822
    Germany72,660
    Finland67,074
    France67,658
    United Kingdom64,384
    Italy62,603
    Slovenia58,153
    Spain56,659
    Lithuania55,995
    Czech Republic59,205
    Cyprus59,858
    Estonia49,697
    Portugal51,257
    Poland54,498
    Slovakia47,439
    Romania49,944
    Hungary49,147
    Latvia45,447
    Croatia51,224
    Greece43,801
    Bulgaria41,506
    Montenegro33,620
    Belarus33,603
    Serbia30,909
    North Macedonia28,720
    Albania22,730
    Bosnia and Herzegovina22,611
    Moldova19,909
    Ukraine20,757
    Kosovo17,835
    Which has the fault of making tax havens look richer than they are.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 45,416

    kinabalu said:

    Scott_xP said:


    "I've got a brilliant new strategy, which is to make so many gaffes that nobody knows which one to concentrate on. [...] They cease to be newsworthy, you completely out-general the media in that way, and they despair. [...] You shell them, you pepper the media... you've got to pepper their positions with so many gaffes that they're confused. It's like a helicopter throwing out chaff, and then you steal on quietly and drop your depth charges wherever you want to drop them."

    - Boris on BBC Booktalk in 2006.

    Donny is doing the same thing

    The problem though is that every single gaffe is newsworthy. Every single one says "This guy should not be in charge, of anything"
    Trump rose to the top of the American political system because he's the most qualified to be commander in chief. He's actually capable of leading the public towards his positions in a way that lesser politicians, who rely on focus groups to know what to say, can only dream of.
    He didn't. He made it back due to (i) his cultish base scaring the GOP into submission and (ii) high inflation under the Dems and (iii) Biden spiking their drink by hanging on until the last minute.
    More that the nutball right self radicalised in a spiral, going through a sound finance phase (Tea Party) to moon howling.

    The various groupings saw that their barrier to power was other non-batshit Republicans - see Mitt Romney etc. So they concentrated on gathering power at local level and working their way up.

    In the more general sphere, they did similar in local elections for various minor offices and the lowest levels of the judicial system.

    The pyramid of loons reached ever higher. And higher

    Trump lucked out on reaching out to these people at the right time. They broke through the dam of the Republican establishment to give him the first nomination. And he, as the nominee and then President gave them full control of the party.
    Yes, pretty much. His power does come from the people but not in the sense of broad based popularity. It's via the Maga cult's control of the Republican party.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 45,416

    kinabalu said:

    Scott_xP said:


    "I've got a brilliant new strategy, which is to make so many gaffes that nobody knows which one to concentrate on. [...] They cease to be newsworthy, you completely out-general the media in that way, and they despair. [...] You shell them, you pepper the media... you've got to pepper their positions with so many gaffes that they're confused. It's like a helicopter throwing out chaff, and then you steal on quietly and drop your depth charges wherever you want to drop them."

    - Boris on BBC Booktalk in 2006.

    Donny is doing the same thing

    The problem though is that every single gaffe is newsworthy. Every single one says "This guy should not be in charge, of anything"
    Trump rose to the top of the American political system because he's the most qualified to be commander in chief. He's actually capable of leading the public towards his positions in a way that lesser politicians, who rely on focus groups to know what to say, can only dream of.
    He didn't. He made it back due to (i) his cultish base scaring the GOP into submission and (ii) high inflation under the Dems and (iii) Biden spiking their drink by hanging on until the last minute.
    More that the nutball right self radicalised in a spiral, going through a sound finance phase (Tea Party) to moon howling.

    The various groupings saw that their barrier to power was other non-batshit Republicans - see Mitt Romney etc. So they concentrated on gathering power at local level and working their way up.

    In the more general sphere, they did similar in local elections for various minor offices and the lowest levels of the judicial system.

    The pyramid of loons reached ever higher. And higher

    Trump lucked out on reaching out to these people at the right time. They broke through the dam of the Republican establishment to give him the first nomination. And he, as the nominee and then President gave them full control of the party.
    But he hasn't given them full control of the party. Trump has imposed positions on them that are not at all in line with things they have been arguing for over the years. Trump is a very skilled politician, which you can see most clearly in how he handled the question of abortion.
    Oh he has skills. This cannot be denied.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 54,287

    kinabalu said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    HYUFD said:

    Given the MoreinCommon poll has a Boris led Conservatives retaking the lead on 26% to 23% for Reform and 22% for Labour you would expect him to not only win any by election he fights in a Tory held seat but also to increase the Conservative majority.

    However I cannot see him becoming a contender for the leadership before he is back in Parliament. If Kemi lost a VONC next autumn and was replaced by Cleverly or Jenrick they would see themselves as having that mandate not Boris to lead the party until the next GE

    The tories need Johnson to survive. We'll see if they have the will and guile to engineer it.
    I think you are right.

    Declaration: I am no fan of Boris and voted for Hunt against him for leader. I think I was right to at the time, and I certainly accept the many criticisms of Boris expressed in this thread. But what's the alternative? PM Farage?

    So far as BJ is concerned, he does have a few good characteristics.

    1. I don't believe he is personally prejudiced or racialist
    2. He has been absolutely solid on Ukraine and a great friend to President Zelenskyy

    These are things I care about. And can you say the same for Farage and Reform? I don't think so.

    So, if you don't want to see the British Right-of-Centre go the same way as the US, then Boris may be the only realistic solution. Fight fire with fire when it comes to competing with Farage. Do what Farage least wants to happen - the re-emergence of Boris as a competitor. Throw over the card table.

    Hardly ideal. But there we are. Pragmatism is the British way, after all.

    Boris coming back would be the end of Britain as a serious country.
    Britain is a serious country?
    Well yes quite.
    We are falling well behind now.
    Bucharest in Romania is as rich as Yorkshire now.
    Take London and the SE away and we are basically eastern european standards of living
    Yet there are thousands of eastern Europeans who live in Yorkshire and near zero Yorkshiremen who live in eastern Europe.

    Not to mention that London has a lower standard of living than Yorkshire:

    https://www.thetimes.com/comment/columnists/article/does-living-and-working-in-london-give-you-a-wealthier-lifestyle-c2fwsvxfl
    Those eastern europeans came when eastern europe was substantially poorer.
    And if free movement between the EU and the UK was reintroduced we all know which way the flow would be.

    Partly because what you claimed previously is bollox:

    GDP per capita 2025 (IMF):

    Germany $56k
    UK $55k
    France $47k
    Italy $41k
    Spain $36k
    Czechia $33k
    Slovakia $27k
    Poland $27k
    Hungary $25k
    Romania $21k
    Bulgaria $19k

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)_per_capita

    Alternatively, median wealth per adult 2024:

    UK $164k
    France $141k
    Italy $114k
    Spain $111k
    Germany $67k
    Slovakia $41k
    Hungary $26k
    Czechia $24k
    Bulgaria $23k
    Romania $22k
    Poland $20k

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_wealth_per_adult
    I find these sort of charts incredibly annoying because they are misleading, gdp per capita is a useful measure for individual countries to use to see if on the whole they are getting better. Between countries however I think they are actually not only useless but detrimental.

    My reasoning for this is that is for instance you use the basket of goods we use to calculate cpih you may well find

    Country A gdp per capita 50000$ basket of goods value = 1000$
    Country B gdp per capita 100000$ basket of goods value = 3000$

    So by purely gdp per capita measures people in country B are twice as well off whereas in reality because they have a cost of living 3 times higher

    Therefore for how far the working wage goes

    Country A realistically is 50
    Country B realistically is 33.33
    Is there a gap in the market for PPP adjusted GDP per capita?
    https://statisticstimes.com/economy/european-countries-by-gdp-per-capita.php

    Has a PPP adjusted table -

    PPP Adjusted GDP per Capita for European Countries (2025)

    Country GDP per Capita (PPP, Int. $)
    Luxembourg154,915
    Ireland131,548
    Norway106,540
    Switzerland98,145
    Denmark85,789
    Netherlands83,823
    San Marino82,579
    Iceland80,318
    Sweden74,143
    Austria74,976
    Belgium75,187
    Malta75,822
    Germany72,660
    Finland67,074
    France67,658
    United Kingdom64,384
    Italy62,603
    Slovenia58,153
    Spain56,659
    Lithuania55,995
    Czech Republic59,205
    Cyprus59,858
    Estonia49,697
    Portugal51,257
    Poland54,498
    Slovakia47,439
    Romania49,944
    Hungary49,147
    Latvia45,447
    Croatia51,224
    Greece43,801
    Bulgaria41,506
    Montenegro33,620
    Belarus33,603
    Serbia30,909
    North Macedonia28,720
    Albania22,730
    Bosnia and Herzegovina22,611
    Moldova19,909
    Ukraine20,757
    Kosovo17,835
    Which has the fault of making tax havens look richer than they are.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U8Kum8OUTuk
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 27,674
    Fishing said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    HYUFD said:

    Given the MoreinCommon poll has a Boris led Conservatives retaking the lead on 26% to 23% for Reform and 22% for Labour you would expect him to not only win any by election he fights in a Tory held seat but also to increase the Conservative majority.

    However I cannot see him becoming a contender for the leadership before he is back in Parliament. If Kemi lost a VONC next autumn and was replaced by Cleverly or Jenrick they would see themselves as having that mandate not Boris to lead the party until the next GE

    The tories need Johnson to survive. We'll see if they have the will and guile to engineer it.
    I think you are right.

    Declaration: I am no fan of Boris and voted for Hunt against him for leader. I think I was right to at the time, and I certainly accept the many criticisms of Boris expressed in this thread. But what's the alternative? PM Farage?

    So far as BJ is concerned, he does have a few good characteristics.

    1. I don't believe he is personally prejudiced or racialist
    2. He has been absolutely solid on Ukraine and a great friend to President Zelenskyy

    These are things I care about. And can you say the same for Farage and Reform? I don't think so.

    So, if you don't want to see the British Right-of-Centre go the same way as the US, then Boris may be the only realistic solution. Fight fire with fire when it comes to competing with Farage. Do what Farage least wants to happen - the re-emergence of Boris as a competitor. Throw over the card table.

    Hardly ideal. But there we are. Pragmatism is the British way, after all.

    Boris coming back would be the end of Britain as a serious country.
    Britain is a serious country?
    Well yes quite.
    We are falling well behind now.
    Bucharest in Romania is as rich as Yorkshire now.
    Take London and the SE away and we are basically eastern european standards of living
    Yet there are thousands of eastern Europeans who live in Yorkshire and near zero Yorkshiremen who live in eastern Europe.

    Not to mention that London has a lower standard of living than Yorkshire:

    https://www.thetimes.com/comment/columnists/article/does-living-and-working-in-london-give-you-a-wealthier-lifestyle-c2fwsvxfl
    Those eastern europeans came when eastern europe was substantially poorer.
    And if free movement between the EU and the UK was reintroduced we all know which way the flow would be.

    Partly because what you claimed previously is bollox:

    GDP per capita 2025 (IMF):

    Germany $56k
    UK $55k
    France $47k
    Italy $41k
    Spain $36k
    Czechia $33k
    Slovakia $27k
    Poland $27k
    Hungary $25k
    Romania $21k
    Bulgaria $19k

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)_per_capita

    Alternatively, median wealth per adult 2024:

    UK $164k
    France $141k
    Italy $114k
    Spain $111k
    Germany $67k
    Slovakia $41k
    Hungary $26k
    Czechia $24k
    Bulgaria $23k
    Romania $22k
    Poland $20k

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_wealth_per_adult
    True and there's another vital reason why we would have much higher immigration from young Europeans than you'd expect given the relative incomes - the magnetic pull of London as Europe's business and tech startup capital and English as the world's language.

    Many young foreigners come here because learning the world's most important language is vital to their future career prospects, and because it's much easier to fit in in a country where you already half-speak the language anyway, having learned it at school.

    Also, if the moronic Starmer government really is stupid enough to rejoin Erasmus, we can expect a huge number of EU students desperate to access our world-leading universities at the same time as improving their English. I spent some time in a decent European university a few weeks ago, and a large proportion of the students I met there were desperate to avail themselves of our higher education. Whereas in the few years since we left Erasmus, I've heard no more than a handful of English students who wished we were still in it, and some professors who've said how much money our higher education system has saved since we left.

    So for all those reasons, we're better off keeping control of our own borders as much as possible.
    Its not just London as an attraction either, other parts of the UK are more attractive than London to various demographics

    Staffordshire is attractive to a Slovakian factory worker, Lincolnshire is attractive to a Lithuanian agricultural worker.

    They would have jobs available that they could do, affordable living costs and be similar to what they were used to, only more affluent and more cosmopolitan.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 27,674

    https://x.com/trump_repost/status/1926982801888305580

    We are still waiting for the Foreign Student Lists from Harvard so that we can determine, after a ridiculous expenditure of BILLIONS OF DOLLARS, how many radicalized lunatics, troublemakers all, should not be let back into our Country. Harvard is very slow in the presentation of these documents, and probably for good reason! The best thing Harvard has going for it is that they have shopped around and found the absolute best Judge (for them!) - But have no fear, the Government will, in the end, WIN!

    What is odd about Trump is that for all his MAGA rhetoric, he seems to be working from a list of all America's advantages, all the things that did make America great, and setting out to destroy them. Today it is the inwards brain drain of the world's best minds to American universities.
    Given how much US universities charge it will also be a hefty source of foreign income.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 27,411

    Fishing said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    HYUFD said:

    Given the MoreinCommon poll has a Boris led Conservatives retaking the lead on 26% to 23% for Reform and 22% for Labour you would expect him to not only win any by election he fights in a Tory held seat but also to increase the Conservative majority.

    However I cannot see him becoming a contender for the leadership before he is back in Parliament. If Kemi lost a VONC next autumn and was replaced by Cleverly or Jenrick they would see themselves as having that mandate not Boris to lead the party until the next GE

    The tories need Johnson to survive. We'll see if they have the will and guile to engineer it.
    I think you are right.

    Declaration: I am no fan of Boris and voted for Hunt against him for leader. I think I was right to at the time, and I certainly accept the many criticisms of Boris expressed in this thread. But what's the alternative? PM Farage?

    So far as BJ is concerned, he does have a few good characteristics.

    1. I don't believe he is personally prejudiced or racialist
    2. He has been absolutely solid on Ukraine and a great friend to President Zelenskyy

    These are things I care about. And can you say the same for Farage and Reform? I don't think so.

    So, if you don't want to see the British Right-of-Centre go the same way as the US, then Boris may be the only realistic solution. Fight fire with fire when it comes to competing with Farage. Do what Farage least wants to happen - the re-emergence of Boris as a competitor. Throw over the card table.

    Hardly ideal. But there we are. Pragmatism is the British way, after all.

    Boris coming back would be the end of Britain as a serious country.
    Britain is a serious country?
    Well yes quite.
    We are falling well behind now.
    Bucharest in Romania is as rich as Yorkshire now.
    Take London and the SE away and we are basically eastern european standards of living
    Yet there are thousands of eastern Europeans who live in Yorkshire and near zero Yorkshiremen who live in eastern Europe.

    Not to mention that London has a lower standard of living than Yorkshire:

    https://www.thetimes.com/comment/columnists/article/does-living-and-working-in-london-give-you-a-wealthier-lifestyle-c2fwsvxfl
    Those eastern europeans came when eastern europe was substantially poorer.
    And if free movement between the EU and the UK was reintroduced we all know which way the flow would be.

    Partly because what you claimed previously is bollox:

    GDP per capita 2025 (IMF):

    Germany $56k
    UK $55k
    France $47k
    Italy $41k
    Spain $36k
    Czechia $33k
    Slovakia $27k
    Poland $27k
    Hungary $25k
    Romania $21k
    Bulgaria $19k

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)_per_capita

    Alternatively, median wealth per adult 2024:

    UK $164k
    France $141k
    Italy $114k
    Spain $111k
    Germany $67k
    Slovakia $41k
    Hungary $26k
    Czechia $24k
    Bulgaria $23k
    Romania $22k
    Poland $20k

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_wealth_per_adult
    True and there's another vital reason why we would have much higher immigration from young Europeans than you'd expect given the relative incomes - the magnetic pull of London as Europe's business and tech startup capital and English as the world's language.

    Many young foreigners come here because learning the world's most important language is vital to their future career prospects, and because it's much easier to fit in in a country where you already half-speak the language anyway, having learned it at school.

    Also, if the moronic Starmer government really is stupid enough to rejoin Erasmus, we can expect a huge number of EU students desperate to access our world-leading universities at the same time as improving their English. I spent some time in a decent European university a few weeks ago, and a large proportion of the students I met there were desperate to avail themselves of our higher education. Whereas in the few years since we left Erasmus, I've heard no more than a handful of English students who wished we were still in it, and some professors who've said how much money our higher education system has saved since we left.

    So for all those reasons, we're better off keeping control of our own borders as much as possible.
    Its not just London as an attraction either, other parts of the UK are more attractive than London to various demographics

    Staffordshire is attractive to a Slovakian factory worker, Lincolnshire is attractive to a Lithuanian agricultural worker.

    They would have jobs available that they could do, affordable living costs and be similar to what they were used to, only more affluent and more cosmopolitan.
    If I recall authoritative PB anecdata, London is full of antisocial grumps who flit from happier places because they just want to go on buses and sulk.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 59,948

    kinabalu said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    HYUFD said:

    Given the MoreinCommon poll has a Boris led Conservatives retaking the lead on 26% to 23% for Reform and 22% for Labour you would expect him to not only win any by election he fights in a Tory held seat but also to increase the Conservative majority.

    However I cannot see him becoming a contender for the leadership before he is back in Parliament. If Kemi lost a VONC next autumn and was replaced by Cleverly or Jenrick they would see themselves as having that mandate not Boris to lead the party until the next GE

    The tories need Johnson to survive. We'll see if they have the will and guile to engineer it.
    I think you are right.

    Declaration: I am no fan of Boris and voted for Hunt against him for leader. I think I was right to at the time, and I certainly accept the many criticisms of Boris expressed in this thread. But what's the alternative? PM Farage?

    So far as BJ is concerned, he does have a few good characteristics.

    1. I don't believe he is personally prejudiced or racialist
    2. He has been absolutely solid on Ukraine and a great friend to President Zelenskyy

    These are things I care about. And can you say the same for Farage and Reform? I don't think so.

    So, if you don't want to see the British Right-of-Centre go the same way as the US, then Boris may be the only realistic solution. Fight fire with fire when it comes to competing with Farage. Do what Farage least wants to happen - the re-emergence of Boris as a competitor. Throw over the card table.

    Hardly ideal. But there we are. Pragmatism is the British way, after all.

    Boris coming back would be the end of Britain as a serious country.
    Britain is a serious country?
    Well yes quite.
    We are falling well behind now.
    Bucharest in Romania is as rich as Yorkshire now.
    Take London and the SE away and we are basically eastern european standards of living
    Yet there are thousands of eastern Europeans who live in Yorkshire and near zero Yorkshiremen who live in eastern Europe.

    Not to mention that London has a lower standard of living than Yorkshire:

    https://www.thetimes.com/comment/columnists/article/does-living-and-working-in-london-give-you-a-wealthier-lifestyle-c2fwsvxfl
    Those eastern europeans came when eastern europe was substantially poorer.
    And if free movement between the EU and the UK was reintroduced we all know which way the flow would be.

    Partly because what you claimed previously is bollox:

    GDP per capita 2025 (IMF):

    Germany $56k
    UK $55k
    France $47k
    Italy $41k
    Spain $36k
    Czechia $33k
    Slovakia $27k
    Poland $27k
    Hungary $25k
    Romania $21k
    Bulgaria $19k

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)_per_capita

    Alternatively, median wealth per adult 2024:

    UK $164k
    France $141k
    Italy $114k
    Spain $111k
    Germany $67k
    Slovakia $41k
    Hungary $26k
    Czechia $24k
    Bulgaria $23k
    Romania $22k
    Poland $20k

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_wealth_per_adult
    I find these sort of charts incredibly annoying because they are misleading, gdp per capita is a useful measure for individual countries to use to see if on the whole they are getting better. Between countries however I think they are actually not only useless but detrimental.

    My reasoning for this is that is for instance you use the basket of goods we use to calculate cpih you may well find

    Country A gdp per capita 50000$ basket of goods value = 1000$
    Country B gdp per capita 100000$ basket of goods value = 3000$

    So by purely gdp per capita measures people in country B are twice as well off whereas in reality because they have a cost of living 3 times higher

    Therefore for how far the working wage goes

    Country A realistically is 50
    Country B realistically is 33.33
    Is there a gap in the market for PPP adjusted GDP per capita?
    https://statisticstimes.com/economy/european-countries-by-gdp-per-capita.php

    Has a PPP adjusted table -

    PPP Adjusted GDP per Capita for European Countries (2025)

    Country GDP per Capita (PPP, Int. $)
    Luxembourg154,915
    Ireland131,548
    Norway106,540
    Switzerland98,145
    Denmark85,789
    Netherlands83,823
    San Marino82,579
    Iceland80,318
    Sweden74,143
    Austria74,976
    Belgium75,187
    Malta75,822
    Germany72,660
    Finland67,074
    France67,658
    United Kingdom64,384
    Italy62,603
    Slovenia58,153
    Spain56,659
    Lithuania55,995
    Czech Republic59,205
    Cyprus59,858
    Estonia49,697
    Portugal51,257
    Poland54,498
    Slovakia47,439
    Romania49,944
    Hungary49,147
    Latvia45,447
    Croatia51,224
    Greece43,801
    Bulgaria41,506
    Montenegro33,620
    Belarus33,603
    Serbia30,909
    North Macedonia28,720
    Albania22,730
    Bosnia and Herzegovina22,611
    Moldova19,909
    Ukraine20,757
    Kosovo17,835
    Which has the fault of making tax havens look richer than they are.
    It does: Ireland and Malta in particular are not as rich as they appear on that list. (And Luxembourg probably isn't either.)
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 54,776
    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Scott_xP said:


    "I've got a brilliant new strategy, which is to make so many gaffes that nobody knows which one to concentrate on. [...] They cease to be newsworthy, you completely out-general the media in that way, and they despair. [...] You shell them, you pepper the media... you've got to pepper their positions with so many gaffes that they're confused. It's like a helicopter throwing out chaff, and then you steal on quietly and drop your depth charges wherever you want to drop them."

    - Boris on BBC Booktalk in 2006.

    Donny is doing the same thing

    The problem though is that every single gaffe is newsworthy. Every single one says "This guy should not be in charge, of anything"
    Trump rose to the top of the American political system because he's the most qualified to be commander in chief. He's actually capable of leading the public towards his positions in a way that lesser politicians, who rely on focus groups to know what to say, can only dream of.
    He didn't. He made it back due to (i) his cultish base scaring the GOP into submission and (ii) high inflation under the Dems and (iii) Biden spiking their drink by hanging on until the last minute.
    More that the nutball right self radicalised in a spiral, going through a sound finance phase (Tea Party) to moon howling.

    The various groupings saw that their barrier to power was other non-batshit Republicans - see Mitt Romney etc. So they concentrated on gathering power at local level and working their way up.

    In the more general sphere, they did similar in local elections for various minor offices and the lowest levels of the judicial system.

    The pyramid of loons reached ever higher. And higher

    Trump lucked out on reaching out to these people at the right time. They broke through the dam of the Republican establishment to give him the first nomination. And he, as the nominee and then President gave them full control of the party.
    But he hasn't given them full control of the party. Trump has imposed positions on them that are not at all in line with things they have been arguing for over the years. Trump is a very skilled politician, which you can see most clearly in how he handled the question of abortion.
    Oh he has skills. This cannot be denied.
    He gave them the judges. Which gave them the end of an abortion. He gave them exactly what they wanted.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 31,443
    Regarding Boris Johnson, I still think he should be the Tory candidate for MOL.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 55,421
    edited May 26

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Scott_xP said:


    "I've got a brilliant new strategy, which is to make so many gaffes that nobody knows which one to concentrate on. [...] They cease to be newsworthy, you completely out-general the media in that way, and they despair. [...] You shell them, you pepper the media... you've got to pepper their positions with so many gaffes that they're confused. It's like a helicopter throwing out chaff, and then you steal on quietly and drop your depth charges wherever you want to drop them."

    - Boris on BBC Booktalk in 2006.

    Donny is doing the same thing

    The problem though is that every single gaffe is newsworthy. Every single one says "This guy should not be in charge, of anything"
    Trump rose to the top of the American political system because he's the most qualified to be commander in chief. He's actually capable of leading the public towards his positions in a way that lesser politicians, who rely on focus groups to know what to say, can only dream of.
    He didn't. He made it back due to (i) his cultish base scaring the GOP into submission and (ii) high inflation under the Dems and (iii) Biden spiking their drink by hanging on until the last minute.
    More that the nutball right self radicalised in a spiral, going through a sound finance phase (Tea Party) to moon howling.

    The various groupings saw that their barrier to power was other non-batshit Republicans - see Mitt Romney etc. So they concentrated on gathering power at local level and working their way up.

    In the more general sphere, they did similar in local elections for various minor offices and the lowest levels of the judicial system.

    The pyramid of loons reached ever higher. And higher

    Trump lucked out on reaching out to these people at the right time. They broke through the dam of the Republican establishment to give him the first nomination. And he, as the nominee and then President gave them full control of the party.
    But he hasn't given them full control of the party. Trump has imposed positions on them that are not at all in line with things they have been arguing for over the years. Trump is a very skilled politician, which you can see most clearly in how he handled the question of abortion.
    Oh he has skills. This cannot be denied.
    He gave them the judges. Which gave them the end of an abortion. He gave them exactly what they wanted.
    Wrong. They wanted a national abortion ban and he's put that off the agenda, probably forever. He's neutralised an issue that poisoned national US politics for decades.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 35,182
    "A video showing Emmanuel Macron being pushed in the face by his wife has been played down by the French president's office."

    https://news.sky.com/story/emmanuel-macron-pushed-in-face-by-wife-as-his-office-plays-down-video-of-squabble-13374861
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 54,776

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Scott_xP said:


    "I've got a brilliant new strategy, which is to make so many gaffes that nobody knows which one to concentrate on. [...] They cease to be newsworthy, you completely out-general the media in that way, and they despair. [...] You shell them, you pepper the media... you've got to pepper their positions with so many gaffes that they're confused. It's like a helicopter throwing out chaff, and then you steal on quietly and drop your depth charges wherever you want to drop them."

    - Boris on BBC Booktalk in 2006.

    Donny is doing the same thing

    The problem though is that every single gaffe is newsworthy. Every single one says "This guy should not be in charge, of anything"
    Trump rose to the top of the American political system because he's the most qualified to be commander in chief. He's actually capable of leading the public towards his positions in a way that lesser politicians, who rely on focus groups to know what to say, can only dream of.
    He didn't. He made it back due to (i) his cultish base scaring the GOP into submission and (ii) high inflation under the Dems and (iii) Biden spiking their drink by hanging on until the last minute.
    More that the nutball right self radicalised in a spiral, going through a sound finance phase (Tea Party) to moon howling.

    The various groupings saw that their barrier to power was other non-batshit Republicans - see Mitt Romney etc. So they concentrated on gathering power at local level and working their way up.

    In the more general sphere, they did similar in local elections for various minor offices and the lowest levels of the judicial system.

    The pyramid of loons reached ever higher. And higher

    Trump lucked out on reaching out to these people at the right time. They broke through the dam of the Republican establishment to give him the first nomination. And he, as the nominee and then President gave them full control of the party.
    But he hasn't given them full control of the party. Trump has imposed positions on them that are not at all in line with things they have been arguing for over the years. Trump is a very skilled politician, which you can see most clearly in how he handled the question of abortion.
    Oh he has skills. This cannot be denied.
    He gave them the judges. Which gave them the end of an abortion. He gave them exactly what they wanted.
    Wrong. They wanted a national abortion ban and he'd put that off the agenda, probably forever. He's neutralised an issue that poisoned national US politics for decades.
    Wrong.

    That is a further aspiration that doesn’t match with even the majority of MAGA. They were, as a group, agreed on “Return control of abortion to the States”. This is what he delivered.

    There is very little support, even among the hardline nutters for a federal abortion ban. Numbers vary between 65-80% *against* in various polls.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 38,574

    He's neutralised an issue that poisoned national US politics for decades.

    He really hasn't

    Try reading something other than TwiX or Truth Social
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 55,421

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Scott_xP said:


    "I've got a brilliant new strategy, which is to make so many gaffes that nobody knows which one to concentrate on. [...] They cease to be newsworthy, you completely out-general the media in that way, and they despair. [...] You shell them, you pepper the media... you've got to pepper their positions with so many gaffes that they're confused. It's like a helicopter throwing out chaff, and then you steal on quietly and drop your depth charges wherever you want to drop them."

    - Boris on BBC Booktalk in 2006.

    Donny is doing the same thing

    The problem though is that every single gaffe is newsworthy. Every single one says "This guy should not be in charge, of anything"
    Trump rose to the top of the American political system because he's the most qualified to be commander in chief. He's actually capable of leading the public towards his positions in a way that lesser politicians, who rely on focus groups to know what to say, can only dream of.
    He didn't. He made it back due to (i) his cultish base scaring the GOP into submission and (ii) high inflation under the Dems and (iii) Biden spiking their drink by hanging on until the last minute.
    More that the nutball right self radicalised in a spiral, going through a sound finance phase (Tea Party) to moon howling.

    The various groupings saw that their barrier to power was other non-batshit Republicans - see Mitt Romney etc. So they concentrated on gathering power at local level and working their way up.

    In the more general sphere, they did similar in local elections for various minor offices and the lowest levels of the judicial system.

    The pyramid of loons reached ever higher. And higher

    Trump lucked out on reaching out to these people at the right time. They broke through the dam of the Republican establishment to give him the first nomination. And he, as the nominee and then President gave them full control of the party.
    But he hasn't given them full control of the party. Trump has imposed positions on them that are not at all in line with things they have been arguing for over the years. Trump is a very skilled politician, which you can see most clearly in how he handled the question of abortion.
    Oh he has skills. This cannot be denied.
    He gave them the judges. Which gave them the end of an abortion. He gave them exactly what they wanted.
    Wrong. They wanted a national abortion ban and he'd put that off the agenda, probably forever. He's neutralised an issue that poisoned national US politics for decades.
    Wrong.

    That is a further aspiration that doesn’t match with even the majority of MAGA. They were, as a group, agreed on “Return control of abortion to the States”. This is what he delivered.

    There is very little support, even among the hardline nutters for a federal abortion ban. Numbers vary between 65-80% *against* in various polls.
    It was the official position of the Republican party until Trump. This was their platform in 2012:

    https://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/documents/2012-republican-party-platform

    Faithful to the "self-evident" truths enshrined in the Declaration of Independence, we assert the sanctity of human life and affirm that the unborn child has a fundamental individual right to life which cannot be infringed. We support a human life amendment to the Constitution and endorse legislation to make clear that the Fourteenth Amendment's protections apply to unborn children.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 54,776

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Scott_xP said:


    "I've got a brilliant new strategy, which is to make so many gaffes that nobody knows which one to concentrate on. [...] They cease to be newsworthy, you completely out-general the media in that way, and they despair. [...] You shell them, you pepper the media... you've got to pepper their positions with so many gaffes that they're confused. It's like a helicopter throwing out chaff, and then you steal on quietly and drop your depth charges wherever you want to drop them."

    - Boris on BBC Booktalk in 2006.

    Donny is doing the same thing

    The problem though is that every single gaffe is newsworthy. Every single one says "This guy should not be in charge, of anything"
    Trump rose to the top of the American political system because he's the most qualified to be commander in chief. He's actually capable of leading the public towards his positions in a way that lesser politicians, who rely on focus groups to know what to say, can only dream of.
    He didn't. He made it back due to (i) his cultish base scaring the GOP into submission and (ii) high inflation under the Dems and (iii) Biden spiking their drink by hanging on until the last minute.
    More that the nutball right self radicalised in a spiral, going through a sound finance phase (Tea Party) to moon howling.

    The various groupings saw that their barrier to power was other non-batshit Republicans - see Mitt Romney etc. So they concentrated on gathering power at local level and working their way up.

    In the more general sphere, they did similar in local elections for various minor offices and the lowest levels of the judicial system.

    The pyramid of loons reached ever higher. And higher

    Trump lucked out on reaching out to these people at the right time. They broke through the dam of the Republican establishment to give him the first nomination. And he, as the nominee and then President gave them full control of the party.
    But he hasn't given them full control of the party. Trump has imposed positions on them that are not at all in line with things they have been arguing for over the years. Trump is a very skilled politician, which you can see most clearly in how he handled the question of abortion.
    Oh he has skills. This cannot be denied.
    He gave them the judges. Which gave them the end of an abortion. He gave them exactly what they wanted.
    Wrong. They wanted a national abortion ban and he'd put that off the agenda, probably forever. He's neutralised an issue that poisoned national US politics for decades.
    Wrong.

    That is a further aspiration that doesn’t match with even the majority of MAGA. They were, as a group, agreed on “Return control of abortion to the States”. This is what he delivered.

    There is very little support, even among the hardline nutters for a federal abortion ban. Numbers vary between 65-80% *against* in various polls.
    It was the official position of the Republican party until Trump. This was their platform in 2012:

    https://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/documents/2012-republican-party-platform

    Faithful to the "self-evident" truths enshrined in the Declaration of Independence, we assert the sanctity of human life and affirm that the unborn child has a fundamental individual right to life which cannot be infringed. We support a human life amendment to the Constitution and endorse legislation to make clear that the Fourteenth Amendment's protections apply to unborn children.
    Which has been conspicuously ignored by everyone.

    What the MAGA group, as a collective average, wanted was an end to Roe. Trump delivered this.

    There is next to no support for attempting to legislate a federal ban, even among the crazy crazy *crazy* MAGA.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 31,944

    Regarding Boris Johnson, I still think he should be the Tory candidate for MOL.

    So you don't want a Conservative Mayor then.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 55,421

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Scott_xP said:


    "I've got a brilliant new strategy, which is to make so many gaffes that nobody knows which one to concentrate on. [...] They cease to be newsworthy, you completely out-general the media in that way, and they despair. [...] You shell them, you pepper the media... you've got to pepper their positions with so many gaffes that they're confused. It's like a helicopter throwing out chaff, and then you steal on quietly and drop your depth charges wherever you want to drop them."

    - Boris on BBC Booktalk in 2006.

    Donny is doing the same thing

    The problem though is that every single gaffe is newsworthy. Every single one says "This guy should not be in charge, of anything"
    Trump rose to the top of the American political system because he's the most qualified to be commander in chief. He's actually capable of leading the public towards his positions in a way that lesser politicians, who rely on focus groups to know what to say, can only dream of.
    He didn't. He made it back due to (i) his cultish base scaring the GOP into submission and (ii) high inflation under the Dems and (iii) Biden spiking their drink by hanging on until the last minute.
    More that the nutball right self radicalised in a spiral, going through a sound finance phase (Tea Party) to moon howling.

    The various groupings saw that their barrier to power was other non-batshit Republicans - see Mitt Romney etc. So they concentrated on gathering power at local level and working their way up.

    In the more general sphere, they did similar in local elections for various minor offices and the lowest levels of the judicial system.

    The pyramid of loons reached ever higher. And higher

    Trump lucked out on reaching out to these people at the right time. They broke through the dam of the Republican establishment to give him the first nomination. And he, as the nominee and then President gave them full control of the party.
    But he hasn't given them full control of the party. Trump has imposed positions on them that are not at all in line with things they have been arguing for over the years. Trump is a very skilled politician, which you can see most clearly in how he handled the question of abortion.
    Oh he has skills. This cannot be denied.
    He gave them the judges. Which gave them the end of an abortion. He gave them exactly what they wanted.
    Wrong. They wanted a national abortion ban and he'd put that off the agenda, probably forever. He's neutralised an issue that poisoned national US politics for decades.
    Wrong.

    That is a further aspiration that doesn’t match with even the majority of MAGA. They were, as a group, agreed on “Return control of abortion to the States”. This is what he delivered.

    There is very little support, even among the hardline nutters for a federal abortion ban. Numbers vary between 65-80% *against* in various polls.
    It was the official position of the Republican party until Trump. This was their platform in 2012:

    https://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/documents/2012-republican-party-platform

    Faithful to the "self-evident" truths enshrined in the Declaration of Independence, we assert the sanctity of human life and affirm that the unborn child has a fundamental individual right to life which cannot be infringed. We support a human life amendment to the Constitution and endorse legislation to make clear that the Fourteenth Amendment's protections apply to unborn children.
    Which has been conspicuously ignored by everyone.

    What the MAGA group, as a collective average, wanted was an end to Roe. Trump delivered this.

    There is next to no support for attempting to legislate a federal ban, even among the crazy crazy *crazy* MAGA.
    It's the wrong frame of reference to see increasing craziness as more MAGA. Trump has moved the Republicans towards the centre.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 65,983
    viewcode said:

    .

    Andy_JS said:
    This feels a bit like self-employed Times/Spectator writers trying to make lanyards a thing when to a vast proportion of people employed by others, they’re just a routine part of daily working life.
    They never used to be..the civil service is not a template for the rest of the workforce..🧐🥴
    I've worked in offices all my working life, and in nearly every one there was some kind of card with my picture on it that I had to show/swipe to gain entry/exit. Sometimes it was attached to my clothing. Now it's on a lanyard round my neck. This "lanyard-class" silliness just goes to show that the Times and Spectator are staffed by spoilt idiots who have never done a day's work in their life. What are they going to go after next? Yearly assessments? Passwords? Laptop usage?
    People who buy their own furniture.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 54,776
    edited May 26
    viewcode said:

    .

    Andy_JS said:
    This feels a bit like self-employed Times/Spectator writers trying to make lanyards a thing when to a vast proportion of people employed by others, they’re just a routine part of daily working life.
    They never used to be..the civil service is not a template for the rest of the workforce..🧐🥴
    I've worked in offices all my working life, and in nearly every one there was some kind of card with my picture on it that I had to show/swipe to gain entry/exit. Sometimes it was attached to my clothing. Now it's on a lanyard round my neck. This "lanyard-class" silliness just goes to show that the Times and Spectator are staffed by spoilt idiots who have never done a day's work in their life. What are they going to go after next? Yearly assessments? Passwords? Laptop usage?
    What they are reaching towards is a definition of aspirant NU10Kers. Still working their way up, to fully incompetent, ignorant and entitled.

    For every Paula Vennells, there are a hundred aspirants, with thick reports, full of nothing, tucked under their arms.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,963
    viewcode said:

    .

    Andy_JS said:
    This feels a bit like self-employed Times/Spectator writers trying to make lanyards a thing when to a vast proportion of people employed by others, they’re just a routine part of daily working life.
    They never used to be..the civil service is not a template for the rest of the workforce..🧐🥴
    I've worked in offices all my working life, and in nearly every one there was some kind of card with my picture on it that I had to show/swipe to gain entry/exit. Sometimes it was attached to my clothing. Now it's on a lanyard round my neck. This "lanyard-class" silliness just goes to show that the Times and Spectator are staffed by spoilt idiots who have never done a day's work in their life. What are they going to go after next? Yearly assessments? Passwords? Laptop usage?
    viewcode said:

    .

    Andy_JS said:
    This feels a bit like self-employed Times/Spectator writers trying to make lanyards a thing when to a vast proportion of people employed by others, they’re just a routine part of daily working life.
    They never used to be..the civil service is not a template for the rest of the workforce..🧐🥴
    I've worked in offices all my working life, and in nearly every one there was some kind of card with my picture on it that I had to show/swipe to gain entry/exit. Sometimes it was attached to my clothing. Now it's on a lanyard round my neck. This "lanyard-class" silliness just goes to show that the Times and Spectator are staffed by spoilt idiots who have never done a day's work in their life. What are they going to go after next? Yearly assessments? Passwords? Laptop usage?
    Schoolkids are festooned with ID on a lanyard these days. They're everywhere.
  • No_Offence_AlanNo_Offence_Alan Posts: 5,064

    Dura_Ace said:

    HYUFD said:

    Given the MoreinCommon poll has a Boris led Conservatives retaking the lead on 26% to 23% for Reform and 22% for Labour you would expect him to not only win any by election he fights in a Tory held seat but also to increase the Conservative majority.

    However I cannot see him becoming a contender for the leadership before he is back in Parliament. If Kemi lost a VONC next autumn and was replaced by Cleverly or Jenrick they would see themselves as having that mandate not Boris to lead the party until the next GE

    The tories need Johnson to survive. We'll see if they have the will and guile to engineer it.
    I think you are right.

    Declaration: I am no fan of Boris and voted for Hunt against him for leader. I think I was right to at the time, and I certainly accept the many criticisms of Boris expressed in this thread. But what's the alternative? PM Farage?

    So far as BJ is concerned, he does have a few good characteristics.

    1. I don't believe he is personally prejudiced or racialist
    2. He has been absolutely solid on Ukraine and a great friend to President Zelenskyy

    These are things I care about. And can you say the same for Farage and Reform? I don't think so.

    So, if you don't want to see the British Right-of-Centre go the same way as the US, then Boris may be the only realistic solution. Fight fire with fire when it comes to competing with Farage. Do what Farage least wants to happen - the re-emergence of Boris as a competitor. Throw over the card table.

    Hardly ideal. But there we are. Pragmatism is the British way, after all.

    Boris coming back would be the end of Britain as a serious country.
    Britain is a serious country?
    Well yes quite.
    We are falling well behind now.
    Bucharest in Romania is as rich as Yorkshire now.
    Take London and the SE away and we are basically eastern european standards of living
    Yet there are thousands of eastern Europeans who live in Yorkshire and near zero Yorkshiremen who live in eastern Europe.

    Not to mention that London has a lower standard of living than Yorkshire:

    https://www.thetimes.com/comment/columnists/article/does-living-and-working-in-london-give-you-a-wealthier-lifestyle-c2fwsvxfl
    Those eastern europeans came when eastern europe was substantially poorer.
    And if free movement between the EU and the UK was reintroduced we all know which way the flow would be.

    Partly because what you claimed previously is bollox:

    GDP per capita 2025 (IMF):

    Germany $56k
    UK $55k
    France $47k
    Italy $41k
    Spain $36k
    Czechia $33k
    Slovakia $27k
    Poland $27k
    Hungary $25k
    Romania $21k
    Bulgaria $19k

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)_per_capita

    Alternatively, median wealth per adult 2024:

    UK $164k
    France $141k
    Italy $114k
    Spain $111k
    Germany $67k
    Slovakia $41k
    Hungary $26k
    Czechia $24k
    Bulgaria $23k
    Romania $22k
    Poland $20k

    https://en.wikipediaorg/wiki/List_of_countries_by_wealth_per_adult
    Do the figures for Romania include the bribes you have to routinely pay to get things to happen.
    Source: a family member's Romanian girlfriend , an NHS nurse.
  • CatManCatMan Posts: 3,264

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Scott_xP said:


    "I've got a brilliant new strategy, which is to make so many gaffes that nobody knows which one to concentrate on. [...] They cease to be newsworthy, you completely out-general the media in that way, and they despair. [...] You shell them, you pepper the media... you've got to pepper their positions with so many gaffes that they're confused. It's like a helicopter throwing out chaff, and then you steal on quietly and drop your depth charges wherever you want to drop them."

    - Boris on BBC Booktalk in 2006.

    Donny is doing the same thing

    The problem though is that every single gaffe is newsworthy. Every single one says "This guy should not be in charge, of anything"
    Trump rose to the top of the American political system because he's the most qualified to be commander in chief. He's actually capable of leading the public towards his positions in a way that lesser politicians, who rely on focus groups to know what to say, can only dream of.
    He didn't. He made it back due to (i) his cultish base scaring the GOP into submission and (ii) high inflation under the Dems and (iii) Biden spiking their drink by hanging on until the last minute.
    More that the nutball right self radicalised in a spiral, going through a sound finance phase (Tea Party) to moon howling.

    The various groupings saw that their barrier to power was other non-batshit Republicans - see Mitt Romney etc. So they concentrated on gathering power at local level and working their way up.

    In the more general sphere, they did similar in local elections for various minor offices and the lowest levels of the judicial system.

    The pyramid of loons reached ever higher. And higher

    Trump lucked out on reaching out to these people at the right time. They broke through the dam of the Republican establishment to give him the first nomination. And he, as the nominee and then President gave them full control of the party.
    But he hasn't given them full control of the party. Trump has imposed positions on them that are not at all in line with things they have been arguing for over the years. Trump is a very skilled politician, which you can see most clearly in how he handled the question of abortion.
    Oh he has skills. This cannot be denied.
    He gave them the judges. Which gave them the end of an abortion. He gave them exactly what they wanted.
    Wrong. They wanted a national abortion ban and he'd put that off the agenda, probably forever. He's neutralised an issue that poisoned national US politics for decades.
    Wrong.

    That is a further aspiration that doesn’t match with even the majority of MAGA. They were, as a group, agreed on “Return control of abortion to the States”. This is what he delivered.

    There is very little support, even among the hardline nutters for a federal abortion ban. Numbers vary between 65-80% *against* in various polls.
    It was the official position of the Republican party until Trump. This was their platform in 2012:

    https://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/documents/2012-republican-party-platform

    Faithful to the "self-evident" truths enshrined in the Declaration of Independence, we assert the sanctity of human life and affirm that the unborn child has a fundamental individual right to life which cannot be infringed. We support a human life amendment to the Constitution and endorse legislation to make clear that the Fourteenth Amendment's protections apply to unborn children.
    Which has been conspicuously ignored by everyone.

    What the MAGA group, as a collective average, wanted was an end to Roe. Trump delivered this.

    There is next to no support for attempting to legislate a federal ban, even among the crazy crazy *crazy* MAGA.
    It's the wrong frame of reference to see increasing craziness as more MAGA. Trump has moved the Republicans towards the centre.
    I've worked you out. You're a stand up comedian trying out new material, aren't you?
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 11,639
    viewcode said:

    .

    Andy_JS said:
    This feels a bit like self-employed Times/Spectator writers trying to make lanyards a thing when to a vast proportion of people employed by others, they’re just a routine part of daily working life.
    They never used to be..the civil service is not a template for the rest of the workforce..🧐🥴
    I've worked in offices all my working life, and in nearly every one there was some kind of card with my picture on it that I had to show/swipe to gain entry/exit. Sometimes it was attached to my clothing. Now it's on a lanyard round my neck. This "lanyard-class" silliness just goes to show that the Times and Spectator are staffed by spoilt idiots who have never done a day's work in their life. What are they going to go after next? Yearly assessments? Passwords? Laptop usage?
    Better to keep the pass in your jacket pocket. If it happens to be warm then your trouser pocket. Pockets on shirts are to be avoided, and not the place for your pass. The absolute greatest sin is a short sleeved shirt with a pocket and pens in the pocket plus a lanyard flapping around too.

    (In reality I confess though since I started wearing glasses I have been tempted by the merits of shirt pockets, but fortunately any quality shirt - double cuffed, proper collar - is unlikely to have such a thing, and thus I've avoided such things)
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 38,574

    What the MAGA group, as a collective average, wanted was an end to Roe. Trump delivered this.

    There is a plausible future in which Republicans beg for a return to Roe...
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,863
    It'll be Jenrick, he's better at transforming himself.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,863
    Nigelb said:

    malcolmg said:

    Nigelb said:

    TimS said:

    Eabhal said:

    What is going to happen with energy today? We're already at 120%, exporting to the continent and the sun is barely up yet.

    I guess we'll be paying lots of turbines to turn off. What a waste.

    And we’re still burning gas, presumably down South because the grid can’t get the electricity from the wind farms quickly enough.

    0.41gw going into pumped storage.

    We’re also, oddly, buying electricity from France up the interconnector at the moment.
    Another good illustration of getting stuff built rather than messing around with planning enquiries and legal challenges for half a decade.

    Far more grid infrastructure could be built by now if that were the case.
    Sure you would love a tower in your garden
    I live in West Yorkshir, Malc.
    Pylons have crisscrossed the landscape for decades.
    Thank goodness, they'd never get built today if it were not already in place.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 27,674
    kle4 said:

    Nigelb said:

    malcolmg said:

    Nigelb said:

    TimS said:

    Eabhal said:

    What is going to happen with energy today? We're already at 120%, exporting to the continent and the sun is barely up yet.

    I guess we'll be paying lots of turbines to turn off. What a waste.

    And we’re still burning gas, presumably down South because the grid can’t get the electricity from the wind farms quickly enough.

    0.41gw going into pumped storage.

    We’re also, oddly, buying electricity from France up the interconnector at the moment.
    Another good illustration of getting stuff built rather than messing around with planning enquiries and legal challenges for half a decade.

    Far more grid infrastructure could be built by now if that were the case.
    Sure you would love a tower in your garden
    I live in West Yorkshir, Malc.
    Pylons have crisscrossed the landscape for decades.
    Thank goodness, they'd never get built today if it were not already in place.
    They wouldn't have been needed as the power stations wouldn't have been built either.

    Or the coal mines.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 59,948

    Dura_Ace said:

    HYUFD said:

    Given the MoreinCommon poll has a Boris led Conservatives retaking the lead on 26% to 23% for Reform and 22% for Labour you would expect him to not only win any by election he fights in a Tory held seat but also to increase the Conservative majority.

    However I cannot see him becoming a contender for the leadership before he is back in Parliament. If Kemi lost a VONC next autumn and was replaced by Cleverly or Jenrick they would see themselves as having that mandate not Boris to lead the party until the next GE

    The tories need Johnson to survive. We'll see if they have the will and guile to engineer it.
    I think you are right.

    Declaration: I am no fan of Boris and voted for Hunt against him for leader. I think I was right to at the time, and I certainly accept the many criticisms of Boris expressed in this thread. But what's the alternative? PM Farage?

    So far as BJ is concerned, he does have a few good characteristics.

    1. I don't believe he is personally prejudiced or racialist
    2. He has been absolutely solid on Ukraine and a great friend to President Zelenskyy

    These are things I care about. And can you say the same for Farage and Reform? I don't think so.

    So, if you don't want to see the British Right-of-Centre go the same way as the US, then Boris may be the only realistic solution. Fight fire with fire when it comes to competing with Farage. Do what Farage least wants to happen - the re-emergence of Boris as a competitor. Throw over the card table.

    Hardly ideal. But there we are. Pragmatism is the British way, after all.

    Boris coming back would be the end of Britain as a serious country.
    Britain is a serious country?
    Well yes quite.
    We are falling well behind now.
    Bucharest in Romania is as rich as Yorkshire now.
    Take London and the SE away and we are basically eastern european standards of living
    Yet there are thousands of eastern Europeans who live in Yorkshire and near zero Yorkshiremen who live in eastern Europe.

    Not to mention that London has a lower standard of living than Yorkshire:

    https://www.thetimes.com/comment/columnists/article/does-living-and-working-in-london-give-you-a-wealthier-lifestyle-c2fwsvxfl
    Those eastern europeans came when eastern europe was substantially poorer.
    And if free movement between the EU and the UK was reintroduced we all know which way the flow would be.

    Partly because what you claimed previously is bollox:

    GDP per capita 2025 (IMF):

    Germany $56k
    UK $55k
    France $47k
    Italy $41k
    Spain $36k
    Czechia $33k
    Slovakia $27k
    Poland $27k
    Hungary $25k
    Romania $21k
    Bulgaria $19k

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)_per_capita

    Alternatively, median wealth per adult 2024:

    UK $164k
    France $141k
    Italy $114k
    Spain $111k
    Germany $67k
    Slovakia $41k
    Hungary $26k
    Czechia $24k
    Bulgaria $23k
    Romania $22k
    Poland $20k

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_wealth_per_adult
    I think you do need to PPP that - nominal numbers swing around a ton with the currency (and of course, it ignores cost of living.)

    I would also note that the median wealth in the UK is the consequence of unaffordable housing. It's a negative, rather than a positive. And it also means that people's incomes don't go as far, because of how much has to get spent on housing.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 59,948

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Scott_xP said:


    "I've got a brilliant new strategy, which is to make so many gaffes that nobody knows which one to concentrate on. [...] They cease to be newsworthy, you completely out-general the media in that way, and they despair. [...] You shell them, you pepper the media... you've got to pepper their positions with so many gaffes that they're confused. It's like a helicopter throwing out chaff, and then you steal on quietly and drop your depth charges wherever you want to drop them."

    - Boris on BBC Booktalk in 2006.

    Donny is doing the same thing

    The problem though is that every single gaffe is newsworthy. Every single one says "This guy should not be in charge, of anything"
    Trump rose to the top of the American political system because he's the most qualified to be commander in chief. He's actually capable of leading the public towards his positions in a way that lesser politicians, who rely on focus groups to know what to say, can only dream of.
    He didn't. He made it back due to (i) his cultish base scaring the GOP into submission and (ii) high inflation under the Dems and (iii) Biden spiking their drink by hanging on until the last minute.
    More that the nutball right self radicalised in a spiral, going through a sound finance phase (Tea Party) to moon howling.

    The various groupings saw that their barrier to power was other non-batshit Republicans - see Mitt Romney etc. So they concentrated on gathering power at local level and working their way up.

    In the more general sphere, they did similar in local elections for various minor offices and the lowest levels of the judicial system.

    The pyramid of loons reached ever higher. And higher

    Trump lucked out on reaching out to these people at the right time. They broke through the dam of the Republican establishment to give him the first nomination. And he, as the nominee and then President gave them full control of the party.
    But he hasn't given them full control of the party. Trump has imposed positions on them that are not at all in line with things they have been arguing for over the years. Trump is a very skilled politician, which you can see most clearly in how he handled the question of abortion.
    Oh he has skills. This cannot be denied.
    He gave them the judges. Which gave them the end of an abortion. He gave them exactly what they wanted.
    Wrong. They wanted a national abortion ban and he'd put that off the agenda, probably forever. He's neutralised an issue that poisoned national US politics for decades.
    Wrong.

    That is a further aspiration that doesn’t match with even the majority of MAGA. They were, as a group, agreed on “Return control of abortion to the States”. This is what he delivered.

    There is very little support, even among the hardline nutters for a federal abortion ban. Numbers vary between 65-80% *against* in various polls.
    It was the official position of the Republican party until Trump. This was their platform in 2012:

    https://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/documents/2012-republican-party-platform

    Faithful to the "self-evident" truths enshrined in the Declaration of Independence, we assert the sanctity of human life and affirm that the unborn child has a fundamental individual right to life which cannot be infringed. We support a human life amendment to the Constitution and endorse legislation to make clear that the Fourteenth Amendment's protections apply to unborn children.
    Which has been conspicuously ignored by everyone.

    What the MAGA group, as a collective average, wanted was an end to Roe. Trump delivered this.

    There is next to no support for attempting to legislate a federal ban, even among the crazy crazy *crazy* MAGA.
    It's the wrong frame of reference to see increasing craziness as more MAGA. Trump has moved the Republicans towards the centre.
    The centre of what?
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,963
    Omnium said:

    viewcode said:

    .

    Andy_JS said:
    This feels a bit like self-employed Times/Spectator writers trying to make lanyards a thing when to a vast proportion of people employed by others, they’re just a routine part of daily working life.
    They never used to be..the civil service is not a template for the rest of the workforce..🧐🥴
    I've worked in offices all my working life, and in nearly every one there was some kind of card with my picture on it that I had to show/swipe to gain entry/exit. Sometimes it was attached to my clothing. Now it's on a lanyard round my neck. This "lanyard-class" silliness just goes to show that the Times and Spectator are staffed by spoilt idiots who have never done a day's work in their life. What are they going to go after next? Yearly assessments? Passwords? Laptop usage?
    Better to keep the pass in your jacket pocket. If it happens to be warm then your trouser pocket. Pockets on shirts are to be avoided, and not the place for your pass. The absolute greatest sin is a short sleeved shirt with a pocket and pens in the pocket plus a lanyard flapping around too.

    (In reality I confess though since I started wearing glasses I have been tempted by the merits of shirt pockets, but fortunately any quality shirt - double cuffed, proper collar - is unlikely to have such a thing, and thus I've avoided such things)
    We are obliged to have our ID on display at all times. Hence the PITA lanyard.

  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,963
    Top tip: Make your boss think you are in the office by simply putting your lanyard round your neck while joining a Teams call from the comfort of your sofa.
  • AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 3,541
    Good evening, everyone.

    I have read the thread header and still don't understand the headline.
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