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The Lib Dems are carving out a strong anti Trump position – politicalbetting.com

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  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 23,908
    I am on a train. A filling just fell out. I said rude words. Quietly. It's a crowded carriage.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 26,111
    edited February 21
    A conversation on Ukraine the Latest with Dr Mike Martin MP (Senior Visiting Fellow at The Department of War Studies, King's College London) - an example of what the Lib Dems have now.

    Talking about his idea for a Euro-Atlantic Treaty Organisation, basically NATO-like minus the USA with common procurement, and afaics including Ukraine. He calls it Eato :smile: .

    https://youtu.be/6glrov7Z5eU?t=863

    Telegraph piece here:

    https://archive.is/20250221160549/https://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/2025/02/21/nato-is-dead-but-theres-still-time-to-build-a-real-alliance/
  • boulayboulay Posts: 6,030
    edited February 21
    Sean_F said:

    It’s not really transactional though, for that would imply that one follows through, on one’s own commitments.

    And, it’s naively short-sighted, for it assumes that other nations won’t react accordingly. That one will never need allies, goodwill, favours that one can call in, that one does not need respect from other powers.

    It actually overestimates the USA’s strength, and certainly Russia’s.

    Let’s say we get to the point where the UK, France, Scandinavia, maybe Germany, have ramped up defence spending, what happens when the US needs help, and its former allies say “Go fuck yourself.”
    Decoupling from the US also makes it easier for European nations to have better relationships with many countries (not necessarily good but from a realpolitik perspective maybe useful).

    As much as a lot of the world has a colonial hangover the hatred for the US in a lot of places is greater. A lot of South America for starters, the Middle East, North Africa, China. Reservation Casinos.

    The US might not like how this goes.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 75,754
    .
    Sean_F said:

    It’s not really transactional though, for that would imply that one follows through, on one’s own commitments.

    And, it’s naively short-sighted, for it assumes that other nations won’t react accordingly. That one will never need allies, goodwill, favours that one can call in, that one does not need respect from other powers.

    It actually overestimates the USA’s strength, and certainly Russia’s.

    Let’s say we get to the point where the UK, France, Scandinavia, maybe Germany, have ramped up defence spending, what happens when the US needs help, and its former allies say “Go fuck yourself.”
    That’s not the immediate point, though.

    A worse Minsk II looks as though it could be on the cards, unless all the above group get their act together within a few weeks at most.

    I don’t know to what extent, even assuming that, we could replace the logistics and surveillance, let alone the arms supplies, the US has up until now provided, and might now withdraw completely to get Trump what he’s determined to have ?

    In any event, a worse Minsk II would make a massive increase in defence spending just as necessary, anyway. Because without that, it would almost certainly lead to a repeat within a few years.
  • ohnotnowohnotnow Posts: 4,549
    At least, judging by the photo in the header, Liz managed to find her way out of the room with only two people's help. Progress!

    In other news (and apols if already covered - been a busy day) :

    https://techcrunch.com/2025/02/21/crypto-exchange-bybit-says-it-was-hacked-and-lost-around-1-4-billion/

    Crypto exchange Bybit says it was hacked and lost around $1.4B

    Crypto exchange Bybit announced on Friday that “a sophisticated attack” led to the theft of Ethereum (ETH) from one of the company’s offline wallets.

    Bybit’s chief executive and co-founder Ben Zhou said in a livestream that the hackers stole around 401,346 ETH, which at the time of the theft amounts to about $1.4 billion.
  • Not sure if @Foxy is at the Leicester match but they are 3 down to Brentford after 32 minutes and some of their supporters are already heading to the exits !!!!
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 75,754
    rcs1000 said:

    I'm sorry to lose you Omnium... especially as you didn't get to the one weird trick.
    To what extent is it even an option for Italy, though … given what they’ve done to their borrowing already, with the enormous housing improvement subsidies they granted in recent years ?
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,892
    rcs1000 said:

    I'm sorry to lose you Omnium... especially as you didn't get to the one weird trick.
    The problem with this "trick" is that if the problem in your economy is excessive consumption and insufficient investment then a policy that gives rise to capital gains on non-economic assets such as housing simply aggravates the problem by encouraging yet more consumption.

    So, such a policy might well make sense for Germany which has had excessive saving for a long time but it makes no sense whatsoever for either the UK or the US. What we both need is a gentle deflation of our housing bubbles which encourages people to save in other ways rather than relying upon the inflation of their major asset, thus increasing the capital available for investment in production rather than consumption.

    We have excess consumption in this country and have had for nearly 30 years now, hence our continuous trade deficit. The last thing we want to do is increase it further by inflating the housing market which already has major secondary effects in reducing job mobility and the creation of hubs with sufficient skills to encourage rapid growth. We need the opposite and if that puts even further pressure on countries dependent upon external demand, like Germany, to increase domestic demand, we just might be doing them a favour.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 75,754
    A very evidently closed mind on the subject.

    Trump: Zelenskyy had the most beautiful cities and they’re all demolished

    Fox host: But that’s Putin’s fault, don’t you agree?

    Trump: I get tired of listening to that, I’ll tell you what

    Fox host: Don’t you think it’s Putin’s fault?

    Trump: *ignores*

    https://x.com/factpostnews/status/1892969636729164254
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,986
    viewcode said:

    I am on a train. A filling just fell out. I said rude words. Quietly. It's a crowded carriage.

    Go to all all night pharmacy. You can get a temporary filling/bung there...
  • ohnotnowohnotnow Posts: 4,549
    viewcode said:

    When the Eye of SaurElon lights on Keir Starmer and sends his Twitter orcs, what do you think he will do?
    Keir? Probably make a quite matter-of-fact bland statement, with an attempt at some sort of humour, which will fall flat as no-one spots it.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 37,367
    His entire pathology laid bare...

    @DavidShuster

    Reports in WH that an irate and humiliated Trump refuses to accept USA Hockey defeat and is claiming it was “rigged for Canada.” Something about refs allowing excess Canadian players on ice. NHL say no evidence anything would have changed outcome. Hmmm.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 30,379
    viewcode said:

    I am on a train. A filling just fell out. I said rude words. Quietly. It's a crowded carriage.

    Sorry to hear you're still having dental woes!
  • I cannot think any fair minded person can witness what is actually happening and not become extremely alarmed, even scared

    There will be those in this country who are on board with Trump [yes - looking at you Farage and Truss] but the vast majority must be horrified and wonder just how this works out

    It is one thing to criticise NATO members for not contributing sufficiently to the organisation, but it is million of miles away from Trump aligning with Putin and abandoning Ukraine and Europe

    Even my wife who isn't really into politics is really stressed, and wonders what effect this will all have on our grandchildren's future
  • boulayboulay Posts: 6,030


    This nails it perfectly:

    “But Democratic senator Adam Schiff views the proposed deal a different way. Writing on X, Schiff said:

    Translation:
    That’s a nice country you’ve got there.
    Would be a shame if something happened to it.”
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 11,384
    rcs1000 said:

    I'm sorry to lose you Omnium... especially as you didn't get to the one weird trick.
    Ok, I've read further.

    The UK shines as an example to caution your suggestion. We have a sort of staleocracy.

    I'll re-engage with this, if I might, at a later date. I've had too much wine now to really corral my senses in a decent manner.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 73,030
    Nigelb said:

    A very evidently closed mind on the subject.

    Trump: Zelenskyy had the most beautiful cities and they’re all demolished

    Fox host: But that’s Putin’s fault, don’t you agree?

    Trump: I get tired of listening to that, I’ll tell you what

    Fox host: Don’t you think it’s Putin’s fault?

    Trump: *ignores*

    https://x.com/factpostnews/status/1892969636729164254

    Are even Fox getting tired of him?

    That would be huge, if true.

    Even huger than Trump's ego.

    Heck, it might be nearly as huge as his delusions.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 59,249

    Vance hates Europe for the same reason that many Brexiters claim to hate the EU: that it is effete, “sclerotic”, hypocritical, and whines from behind the hem of the U.S. petticoat.

    He also thinks Europe at large has no plan for demographic decline apart from importing culturally hostile immigrants.

    It’s effectively the Leon critique, and if only Britain were somehow excluded, many of our Brexiters would vigorously agree.

    Yep
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 43,082
    edited February 21
    Sean_F said:

    It’s worth noting the fate of the nation that coined the expression “the strong do as they will, the weak as they must.”

    Twelve years later, Athens had lost its empire, faced starvation, and was surrounded by enemies, many of them eager to wipe the city off the map.

    That 12 years till hubristic self destruction is a bit spooky. I suppose that means another 4 years till the fall of Trumpistan (much as the current US displeases me I hope he doesn’t pull the whole edifice down).
  • Sorry to hear you're still having dental woes!
    I lost a crown on my flight to New Zealand and as soon as I landed, Denplan organised a dentist who resolved it and it was included in my Denplan policy and no charges
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 54,392
    Scott_xP said:

    His entire pathology laid bare...

    @DavidShuster

    Reports in WH that an irate and humiliated Trump refuses to accept USA Hockey defeat and is claiming it was “rigged for Canada.” Something about refs allowing excess Canadian players on ice. NHL say no evidence anything would have changed outcome. Hmmm.

    Sense of humour failure?
  • kamskikamski Posts: 6,231
    HYUFD said:

    Why? If Muslim areas effectively become their own ghettos and mini states it will follow on a whole range of areas
    a restaurant selling halal food is not a ghetto or a mini-state, any more than 'pure veg' Indian sweet shop is.

    but people protesting the existence of such restaurants isn't going to persuade people to turn away from 'sharia courts', and instead trust in the actual justice system is it?
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,892

    I cannot think any fair minded person can witness what is actually happening and not become extremely alarmed, even scared

    There will be those in this country who are on board with Trump [yes - looking at you Farage and Truss] but the vast majority must be horrified and wonder just how this works out

    It is one thing to criticise NATO members for not contributing sufficiently to the organisation, but it is million of miles away from Trump aligning with Putin and abandoning Ukraine and Europe

    Even my wife who isn't really into politics is really stressed, and wonders what effect this will all have on our grandchildren's future

    It was interesting listening to Nick Robinson on Today this morning ostensibly talking about the German elections but in fact almost exclusively talking about Trump. The next Chancellor of Germany has mused in public that the US is now an autocracy and no longer a democracy subject to the rule of law. If we are in large part shocked the Germans are truly appalled. The US has been their guarantor of their democracy since 1945 and is no longer trustworthy.

    Scholz seems to want to pretend otherwise but his days are numbered and his party looks like the next incumbent to get the Tory 2024 treatment.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 58,969
    DavidL said:

    The problem with this "trick" is that if the problem in your economy is excessive consumption and insufficient investment then a policy that gives rise to capital gains on non-economic assets such as housing simply aggravates the problem by encouraging yet more consumption.

    So, such a policy might well make sense for Germany which has had excessive saving for a long time but it makes no sense whatsoever for either the UK or the US. What we both need is a gentle deflation of our housing bubbles which encourages people to save in other ways rather than relying upon the inflation of their major asset, thus increasing the capital available for investment in production rather than consumption.

    We have excess consumption in this country and have had for nearly 30 years now, hence our continuous trade deficit. The last thing we want to do is increase it further by inflating the housing market which already has major secondary effects in reducing job mobility and the creation of hubs with sufficient skills to encourage rapid growth. We need the opposite and if that puts even further pressure on countries dependent upon external demand, like Germany, to increase domestic demand, we just might be doing them a favour.
    Yes: my advice is addressed to European (principally Eurozone) countries where savings rates are too high and who are trapped in a cycle where they are totally dependent on external demand.

    That clearly does not apply to the UK or the US.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 43,082

    Sense of humour failure?
    Not often you’re critical of Trump..
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 4,916

    I cannot think any fair minded person can witness what is actually happening and not become extremely alarmed, even scared

    There will be those in this country who are on board with Trump [yes - looking at you Farage and Truss] but the vast majority must be horrified and wonder just how this works out

    It is one thing to criticise NATO members for not contributing sufficiently to the organisation, but it is million of miles away from Trump aligning with Putin and abandoning Ukraine and Europe

    Even my wife who isn't really into politics is really stressed, and wonders what effect this will all have on our grandchildren's future

    The checkout lady today was talking about Trump and we had a good moaning session about the state of the world . I do think something has fundamentally changed during the last week . I don’t think the genie is going back into the bottle .
  • DavidL said:

    It was interesting listening to Nick Robinson on Today this morning ostensibly talking about the German elections but in fact almost exclusively talking about Trump. The next Chancellor of Germany has mused in public that the US is now an autocracy and no longer a democracy subject to the rule of law. If we are in large part shocked the Germans are truly appalled. The US has been their guarantor of their democracy since 1945 and is no longer trustworthy.

    Scholz seems to want to pretend otherwise but his days are numbered and his party looks like the next incumbent to get the Tory 2024 treatment.
    Many congratulations on your wonderful day, Papa
  • nico67 said:

    The checkout lady today was talking about Trump and we had a good moaning session about the state of the world . I do think something has fundamentally changed during the last week . I don’t think the genie is going back into the bottle .
    It has and it isn't
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 4,916

    It has and it isn't
    It’s been an extraordinary few years . Covid , Ukraine and now the US aligning with Putin . I dread to think what else is going to happen .
  • kamskikamski Posts: 6,231

    The problem is that "we" aren't the ones dying, and the people who are currently don't have a choice.
    i seem to remember you disagreeing very strongly with people on here - @gardenwalker and others - at the beginning of this war who were arguing that Ukraine couldn't win and should accept some kind of peace deal.

    so are you now saying that they were right and you were wrong?
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 34,087

    I cannot think any fair minded person can witness what is actually happening and not become extremely alarmed, even scared

    There will be those in this country who are on board with Trump [yes - looking at you Farage and Truss] but the vast majority must be horrified and wonder just how this works out

    It is one thing to criticise NATO members for not contributing sufficiently to the organisation, but it is million of miles away from Trump aligning with Putin and abandoning Ukraine and Europe

    Even my wife who isn't really into politics is really stressed, and wonders what effect this will all have on our grandchildren's future

    I'm alarmed but the one good thing is if it forces European governments to fund their own defence, which they were stubbornly refusing to do before despite being gently informed by people like Obama that they should do so.
  • boulayboulay Posts: 6,030
    nico67 said:

    It’s been an extraordinary few years . Covid , Ukraine and now the US aligning with Putin . I dread to think what else is going to happen .
    As long as it’s not the return of Shell Suits it can’t really get worse.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 45,045
    Nigelb said:

    .

    That’s not the immediate point, though.

    A worse Minsk II looks as though it could be on the cards, unless all the above group get their act together within a few weeks at most.

    I don’t know to what extent, even assuming that, we could replace the logistics and surveillance, let alone the arms supplies, the US has up until now provided, and might now withdraw completely to get Trump what he’s determined to have ?

    In any event, a worse Minsk II would make a massive increase in defence spending just as necessary, anyway. Because without that, it would almost certainly lead to a repeat within a few years.
    I agree with your point, but would just quibble for information's sake that it'd be Minsk III. There's already been a Minsk II:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minsk_agreements#Minsk_II,_February_2015
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 22,124
    Boris has written his weekly column which is a stout defence of Ukraine, but ends by claiming that Trump is playing something akin to seven dimensional chess to seduce Putin to the negotiating table.
  • boulayboulay Posts: 6,030

    Boris has written his weekly column which is a stout defence of Ukraine, but ends by claiming that Trump is playing something akin to seven dimensional chess to seduce Putin to the negotiating table.

    If anyone knows about incomprehensible seduction then it’s Boris.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 45,045
    Anyway, possibly of interest to no-one, I got a Zwift Ride indoor bike a little a little over a month ago, and have already done 735km on it. It's great fun, and far better than cycling outside at this time of year.

    I know indoor trainers are frowned upon by some in the biking community, but Zwift really is fun once you get used to it. And although it's expensive, it's still far cheaper than getting a >£3,000 new bike when the main thing affecting my speed it fitness.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 38,317
    edited February 21

    Trump believes the US is strong enough never to need friends, it can just bully other nations with no real consequences.

    As you say, that's overestimating its strength. Quite grossly so. The US has wielded such enormous influence in the past 80 years because it was the centre of a web of co-operation encompassing the Anglosphere, Europe and chunks of Asia.

    An isolated US that has turned friends into enemies will be much diminished.

    That is my view. It's using your left hand to chop off your right.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 22,124
    I have no fillings (age: late 40s), and there’s a new drug you can take which basically eliminates the filling-causing bacteria in your mouth.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 9,929
    edited February 21
    Nigelb said:

    A very evidently closed mind on the subject.

    Trump: Zelenskyy had the most beautiful cities and they’re all demolished

    Fox host: But that’s Putin’s fault, don’t you agree?

    Trump: I get tired of listening to that, I’ll tell you what

    Fox host: Don’t you think it’s Putin’s fault?

    Trump: *ignores*

    https://x.com/factpostnews/status/1892969636729164254

    That doesn't quite sound like Trump. Might be the recording but given the world we live in...

    I'll have a dig around and see if I can find it reported elsewhere.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 13,279
    viewcode said:

    I am on a train. A filling just fell out. I said rude words. Quietly. It's a crowded carriage.

    Best wishes for viewcode's tooth.
  • nico67 said:

    It’s been an extraordinary few years . Covid , Ukraine and now the US aligning with Putin . I dread to think what else is going to happen .
    Maybe in the end Europe with Canada, Turkey, Iceland, Norway and others will come together under a new NATO umbrella and at the same time agree trade deals that benefit all countries, individually or collectively

    Maybe an old doddery man's dream but we all need hope
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 45,045

    Boris has written his weekly column which is a stout defence of Ukraine, but ends by claiming that Trump is playing something akin to seven dimensional chess to seduce Putin to the negotiating table.

    I would love nothing more than to have to wholeheartedly apologise to @Sandpit and say that he knew something I did not see; and that Trump, Musk et al had the best for Ukraine in mind, and it was possible to support both Trump and Ukraine.

    I really doubt that will happen, sadly. All the signs I can see are that Trump, Musk et al are going to screw Ukraine.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 22,100
    Does Trump want Putin to side with him against China? And is therefore Ukraine the price? It’s the only explanation I can see beyond Putin owning Trump.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 37,367
    Eabhal said:

    That doesn't quite sound like Trump. Might be the recording but given the world we live in...

    I'll have a dig around and see if I can find it reported elsewhere.
    @JayinKyiv

    Holy shit..

    Trump is going on every American radio show today to praise Putin, refusing to let the hosts even suggest Russia started the war. Blaming Zelensky for everything.

    https://x.com/JayinKyiv/status/1893004219231203430
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 22,124
    Let’s imagine for a second that the UK does lead, alongside France, defence of Europe.

    What does it get in return from European partners?
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 10,631
    I don't get all the fuss about the fascist takeover of the usa.....and yes agree its happenin......for avoidance of doubt and not saying its a good thing either....the same people worrying about it seem to be the same people saying we are all going to be dying of climate change by 2050 so not like the fourth reich in the usa is going to last long
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 53,749
    Sean_F said:

    It’s worth noting the fate of the nation that coined the expression “the strong do as they will, the weak as they must.”

    Twelve years later, Athens had lost its empire, faced starvation, and was surrounded by enemies, many of them eager to wipe the city off the map.



    Exactly.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 37,367
    Kylo Musk is now picking fights with multiple NASA astronauts on TwiX.

    He's barely smarter than Donny
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 37,367

    Let’s imagine for a second that the UK does lead, alongside France, defence of Europe.

    What does it get in return from European partners?

    The respect that BoZo torched
  • LeonLeon Posts: 59,249
    edited February 21
    kamski said:

    i seem to remember you disagreeing very strongly with people on here - @gardenwalker and others - at the beginning of this war who were arguing that Ukraine couldn't win and should accept some kind of peace deal.

    so are you now saying that they were right and you were wrong?
    Er, I believe it was me - after my first visit to Ukraine in late spring 2023 - who began to point out that they simply couldn’t win due to lack of men. This was emphatically reinforced by my visit in summer 2024. By then I was advocating for a deal

    I received vitriolic scorn for it. With the warmongers constantly claiming Ukraine was “about to reach the Sea of Azov” when this was palpable nonsense

    It’s a pity @Sean_F is one of these people. The whole geopolitical tragedy of Ukraine has somewhat unhinged him. I hope he regains his sanity

    PB is becoming intolerably dumb and @Sean_F is clever
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 75,754
    boulay said:



    This nails it perfectly:

    “But Democratic senator Adam Schiff views the proposed deal a different way. Writing on X, Schiff said:

    Translation:
    That’s a nice country you’ve got there.
    Would be a shame if something happened to it.”

    I think we’re actually past even that.
    It’s more than protection money being demanded now.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 53,749

    Anyway, possibly of interest to no-one, I got a Zwift Ride indoor bike a little a little over a month ago, and have already done 735km on it. It's great fun, and far better than cycling outside at this time of year.

    I know indoor trainers are frowned upon by some in the biking community, but Zwift really is fun once you get used to it. And although it's expensive, it's still far cheaper than getting a >£3,000 new bike when the main thing affecting my speed it fitness.

    Only idiots frown on gym training for any sport.

    Doing 6.8km on the erg, regularly as part of train for a Head race. Other patterns as well, obviously.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 22,124
    Scott_xP said:

    The respect that BoZo torched
    That doesn’t butter any parsnips.
    Or not many parsnips, anyway.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 9,929
    Scott_xP said:

    @JayinKyiv

    Holy shit..

    Trump is going on every American radio show today to praise Putin, refusing to let the hosts even suggest Russia started the war. Blaming Zelensky for everything.

    https://x.com/JayinKyiv/status/1893004219231203430
    Yep here it is at 8:30. Maybe he has a cold, as the comments suggest?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y_aSVsQdHto
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 37,367
    @seungminkim

    NEW YORK (AP) — The Associated Press sues 3 Trump administration officials over access to presidential events, citing First Amendment.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 38,317

    That 12 years till hubristic self destruction is a bit spooky. I suppose that means another 4 years till the fall of Trumpistan (much as the current US displeases me I hope he doesn’t pull the whole edifice down).
    "History doesn't repeat itself, but it rhymes."

    Successful great powers know that it's necessary, on occasion, to wield the hammer of hard power, but that networks of alliances, with powers who respect you, are still tremendously important.

    Athens' downfall was a classic case of nemesis succeeding hubris. Many of Athens' enemies cited their treatment of Melos, as a fine precedent for what should be done to Athens, when the fortunes of war turned.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 54,392
    Jonathan said:

    Does Trump want Putin to side with him against China? And is therefore Ukraine the price? It’s the only explanation I can see beyond Putin owning Trump.

    Basically yes, or at least to give Russia a better option. That’s certainly the line that the China hawks he’s hired were pushing over the last few years, arguing that it was insane to push Russia into China’s arms.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,861
    Jonathan said:

    Does Trump want Putin to side with him against China? And is therefore Ukraine the price? It’s the only explanation I can see beyond Putin owning Trump.

    What?
    You can't see it's all about profit? Panama Canal, Greenland, Canada, Ukraine. Close down government, rob weaker countries, eliminate income tax.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,892

    Boris has written his weekly column which is a stout defence of Ukraine, but ends by claiming that Trump is playing something akin to seven dimensional chess to seduce Putin to the negotiating table.

    Boris's loud and clear support for Ukraine was probably the high point of his Premiership and UK NLAWS played a critical part in the defence of Kyiv in the early days of the war. But the rest is total rubbish. Trump would struggle to manage a game of draughts, let alone chess.
  • Leon said:

    Er, I believe it was me - after my first visit to Ukraine in late spring 2023 - who began to point out that they simply couldn’t win due to lack of men. This was emphatically reinforced by my visit in summer 2024. By then I was advocating for a deal

    I received vitriolic scorn for it. With the warmongers constantly claiming Ukraine was “about to reach the Sea of Azov” when this was palpable nonsense

    It’s a pity @Sean_F is one of these people. The whole geopolitical tragedy of Ukraine has somewhat unhinged him. I hope he regains his sanity

    PB is becoming intolerably dumb and @Sean_F is clever
    Warmonger Putin can end this war IMMEDIATELY by pulling back what's left of his forces back to the 1991 border.
  • rcs1000 said:

    New Blog Post!

    One Weird Trick To Revitalize Your Economy
    https://substack.com/home/post/p-157643292

    Increasing levels of inequality is unhealthy in many ways. I’m sure there’s a list. Therefore MIRAS is not a great solution.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 37,367
    DavidL said:

    Boris's loud and clear support for Ukraine was probably the high point of his Premiership and UK NLAWS played a critical part in the defence of Kyiv in the early days of the war. But the rest is total rubbish. Trump would struggle to manage a game of draughts, let alone chess.
    "He's just eating the pieces off the board"
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 9,929

    Anyway, possibly of interest to no-one, I got a Zwift Ride indoor bike a little a little over a month ago, and have already done 735km on it. It's great fun, and far better than cycling outside at this time of year.

    I know indoor trainers are frowned upon by some in the biking community, but Zwift really is fun once you get used to it. And although it's expensive, it's still far cheaper than getting a >£3,000 new bike when the main thing affecting my speed it fitness.

    I've been tempted before, a few of my friends have them. I'm almost completely unbothered by weather when it comes to exercise, hits the same markers as the exertion itself.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 54,392
    DavidL said:

    Boris's loud and clear support for Ukraine was probably the high point of his Premiership and UK NLAWS played a critical part in the defence of Kyiv in the early days of the war. But the rest is total rubbish. Trump would struggle to manage a game of draughts, let alone chess.
    He outsmarted all the people who tried to finish off his career over the last four years, so it would be foolish to think he’s an idiot.


  • Exactly.
    "I love rumours! Facts can be so misleading, where rumours, true or false are often revealing."
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 22,100
    dixiedean said:

    What?
    You can't see it's all about profit? Panama Canal, Greenland, Canada, Ukraine. Close down government, rob weaker countries, eliminate income tax.
    Doesn’t explain dismantling nato
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 54,392

    Warmonger Putin can end this war IMMEDIATELY by pulling back what's left of his forces back to the 1991 border.
    This is only partially true. If he pulled out of Ukraine completely, would all the sanctions be lifted? Would attempts to prosecute him end? There needs to be some kind of deal no matter what.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,861
    Scott_xP said:

    Kylo Musk is now picking fights with multiple NASA astronauts on TwiX.

    He's barely smarter than Donny

    His first name is an anagram of Leon, who is a great admirer and shares many of his views...
    Wait a minute...
  • FossFoss Posts: 1,332
    Jonathan said:

    Does Trump want Putin to side with him against China? And is therefore Ukraine the price? It’s the only explanation I can see beyond Putin owning Trump.

    The attitude of Starmer and Macron after next week's visits should give some indication. Pull pack and it's a remote possibility, keep talking about filling the US hole and it's not.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 38,317
    Leon said:

    Er, I believe it was me - after my first visit to Ukraine in late spring 2023 - who began to point out that they simply couldn’t win due to lack of men. This was emphatically reinforced by my visit in summer 2024. By then I was advocating for a deal

    I received vitriolic scorn for it. With the warmongers constantly claiming Ukraine was “about to reach the Sea of Azov” when this was palpable nonsense

    It’s a pity @Sean_F is one of these people. The whole geopolitical tragedy of Ukraine has somewhat unhinged him. I hope he regains his sanity

    PB is becoming intolerably dumb and @Sean_F is clever
    I'm a historian. I know how dangerous it is to throw people to the wolves, in the hope that they'll eat you last.

    There is no deal to be done. What Trump wants is his own version of Molotov/Ribbentrop.
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 5,462
    DavidL said:

    The problem with this "trick" is that if the problem in your economy is excessive consumption and insufficient investment then a policy that gives rise to capital gains on non-economic assets such as housing simply aggravates the problem by encouraging yet more consumption.

    So, such a policy might well make sense for Germany which has had excessive saving for a long time but it makes no sense whatsoever for either the UK or the US. What we both need is a gentle deflation of our housing bubbles which encourages people to save in other ways rather than relying upon the inflation of their major asset, thus increasing the capital available for investment in production rather than consumption.

    We have excess consumption in this country and have had for nearly 30 years now, hence our continuous trade deficit. The last thing we want to do is increase it further by inflating the housing market which already has major secondary effects in reducing job mobility and the creation of hubs with sufficient skills to encourage rapid growth. We need the opposite and if that puts even further pressure on countries dependent upon external demand, like Germany, to increase domestic demand, we just might be doing them a favour.
    We don’t have excess consumption. We have insufficient production.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,861
    Jonathan said:

    Doesn’t explain dismantling nato
    Jonathan said:

    Doesn’t explain dismantling nato
    All other countries are prey.
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 5,462
    nico67 said:

    It’s been an extraordinary few years . Covid , Ukraine and now the US aligning with Putin . I dread to think what else is going to happen .
    The USA taking over the UK and installing Truss as puppet leader.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 37,367
    Kids. Don't do drugs...

    @quantian1

    I watched two interviews of Elon Musk, one from 2010 and one from 2025, and transcribed two answers of his as accurately as I could (including pauses, verbal tics, &c). The readability score of the old transcript is graduate-level; the new one is about the level of a 7th grader.

    https://x.com/quantian1/status/1892746058712649981
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 5,462
    boulay said:

    If anyone knows about incomprehensible seduction then it’s Boris.
    Or his partners.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 59,249

    Trump believes the US is strong enough never to need friends, it can just bully other nations with no real consequences.

    As you say, that's overestimating its strength. Quite grossly so. The US has wielded such enormous influence in the past 80 years because it was the centre of a web of co-operation encompassing the Anglosphere, Europe and chunks of Asia.

    An isolated US that has turned friends into enemies will be much diminished.

    No, the opposite argument applies. The USA has realised it is no longer willing - or able - to play global policeman. Once it was wealthy and powerful enough to shoulder this burden - yes it did it selfishly, but sometimes altruistically, too

    Cf Britain abolishing slavery. We were wealthy and powerful enough to do this, even at some cost to ourselves

    Now America has decided: fuck this for a game of soldiers. China is its equal - superior in some ways, inferior in others, but certainly an equal (more than the USSR ever was)

    America is therefore retreating to a much more transactional isolationist position - doing only that which expressly benefits USA Inc (opinions on what this is will be divided)

    The outraged whining and crying (if you’re German) at this decision is quite a ridiculous spectacle, especially as so much of it comes from lefties who until 3 days ago liked nothing more than berating America for “interfering all over the world”
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 37,367

    The USA taking over the UK and installing Truss as puppet leader.
    @mikeysmith

    I asked Liz Truss if she was comfortable sharing a stage with Steve Bannon after the “salute” incident.

    Also if she thought her premiership would have been better if she’d had a chainsaw.

    https://x.com/mikeysmith/status/1893048235045855461
  • LeonLeon Posts: 59,249
    Sean_F said:

    I'm a historian. I know how dangerous it is to throw people to the wolves, in the hope that they'll eat you last.

    There is no deal to be done. What Trump wants is his own version of Molotov/Ribbentrop.
    Get a grip. Putin is not going to invade America
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 37,367
    @RpsAgainstTrump

    BREAKING: Former Proud Boys leader Enrique Tarrio, who was released from prison last month after Trump pardoned him along with 1,500 other Jan. 6 rioters, has just been arrested by Capitol Police for assaulting a counter-protester.

    https://x.com/RpsAgainstTrump/status/1893031250387984766
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 37,367
    Leon said:

    Get a grip. Putin is not going to invade America

    He doesn't have to

    https://x.com/Yam_Nivek/status/1892703825967853915
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 38,317
    edited February 21
    Leon said:

    Get a grip. Putin is not going to invade America
    No, but he will make a great deal of trouble for us, and our allies. And, does he need to invade, when he owns the US government, anyway?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 59,249
    Sean_F said:

    No, but he will make a great deal of trouble for us, and our allies. And, does he need to invade, when he owns the US government, anyway?
    This is about as insane as when, during Ukraine’s great counteroffensive, you claimed they were mere kilometres from the Sea of Azov and on the cusp of a great victory

    That was bilge: so is this
  • kamskikamski Posts: 6,231
    Jonathan said:

    Does Trump want Putin to side with him against China? And is therefore Ukraine the price? It’s the only explanation I can see beyond Putin owning Trump.

    Trump might think that way, but there's no chance Putin would abandon a reliable ally for the completely untrustworthy US.

    But the simpler explanation is: Trump admires dictators, has a grudge against Zelensky, and sees the chance to make some money.

    Maybe he can get Russian acquiescence in Israeli ethnic cleansing of Gaza and the West Bank as a bonus from his point of view.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 38,317
    edited February 21
    Leon said:

    This is about as insane as when, during Ukraine’s great counteroffensive, you claimed they were mere kilometres from the Sea of Azov and on the cusp of a great victory

    That was bilge: so is this
    Can you provide a source when I said they were mere kilometres from the Sea of Azov?

    Your belief in Putin's goodwill towards us is what one would expect from Jeremy Corbyn.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 13,279
    Taz said:
    It's a strain of HKU5, which is a bat virus closer to MERS than SARS/COVID-19. (HKU5 and MERS are in the same subgenus as Hedgehog Coronavirus 1, which is found in hedgehogs across Europe. So, if you see a sneezing hedgehog, beware.)

    This new strain has been found in bats, so no sign it's jumped to humans, but its genome and in vtiro tests suggests it can do so.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 9,929
    Scott_xP said:

    @RpsAgainstTrump

    BREAKING: Former Proud Boys leader Enrique Tarrio, who was released from prison last month after Trump pardoned him along with 1,500 other Jan. 6 rioters, has just been arrested by Capitol Police for assaulting a counter-protester.

    https://x.com/RpsAgainstTrump/status/1893031250387984766

    By cycle cops.

    I cannot express how good this makes me feel.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,892

    We don’t have excess consumption. We have insufficient production.
    So we need to invest more to increase production to match our consumption. But you really can't spend the same money twice. You either spend it on imports that have been produced elsewhere or you invest it creating future production. We need a lot more of the latter and less of the former, at least in the short term.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 18,411
    Leon said:

    Get a grip. Putin is not going to invade America
    Wrong way round, surely?
  • kamskikamski Posts: 6,231
    Leon said:

    Er, I believe it was me - after my first visit to Ukraine in late spring 2023 - who began to point out that they simply couldn’t win due to lack of men. This was emphatically reinforced by my visit in summer 2024. By then I was advocating for a deal

    I received vitriolic scorn for it. With the warmongers constantly claiming Ukraine was “about to reach the Sea of Azov” when this was palpable nonsense

    It’s a pity @Sean_F is one of these people. The whole geopolitical tragedy of Ukraine has somewhat unhinged him. I hope he regains his sanity

    PB is becoming intolerably dumb and @Sean_F is clever
    No I'm talking about March 2022.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 54,392
    Sean_F said:

    I could understand, if not approve, the US saying goodbye to Ukraine. It's their making common cause with Russia, by any measure a far weaker power than the USA, that is so despicable.
    “I could understand, if not approve, Britain saying goodbye to Bulgaria. It’s their making common cause with the Ottoman Empire, by any measure a far weaker power than the British Empire, that is so despicable.”
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 38,317

    “I could understand, if not approve, Britain saying goodbye to Bulgaria. It’s their making common cause with the Ottoman Empire, by any measure a far weaker power than the British Empire, that is so despicable.”
    The relevance of that being?
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 54,392
    Sean_F said:

    The relevance of that being?
    Sometimes it’s necessary to prop up a declining power that you might not approve of.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 59,249
    kamski said:

    No I'm talking about March 2022.
    Ah, then fair enough

    In March 2022, like most of us, I was still reeling from
    the fact the war existed, and also sadly pessimistic that Putin would walk into Kyiv
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 13,279

    “I could understand, if not approve, Britain saying goodbye to Bulgaria. It’s their making common cause with the Ottoman Empire, by any measure a far weaker power than the British Empire, that is so despicable.”
    That's a deep cut!
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 13,279
    Sean_F said:

    The relevance of that being?
    It's late 19th century history. Start with https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batak_massacre and work out.

    But the point is that we crawled our way out of the 19th century and the first half of the 20th century to successfully establish an international order opposed to wars of aggression, land grabs and ethnic cleansing... until 2025.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 22,124
    Glad to hear I was so prescient in 2022!

    I’m not sure what peace might have been on the table back then, but if we’d had a deal at that stage 50,000 Ukrainians might now still be alive.
This discussion has been closed.