The Lib Dems are carving out a strong anti Trump position – politicalbetting.com

System · February 21

The Lib Dems are carving out a strong anti Trump position – politicalbetting.com

.@JDVance is right.Europe’s governments – especially Britain’s – are treating George Orwell’s 1984 like an instruction manual.That's why we are establishing a new free speech media network, with some help from our American allies.More news soon…. https://t.co/FGz6PGRcLL

Read the full story here

Alphabet_Soup · February 21

First for lettuce.

Gallowgate · February 21

Second like Mozzarella Dippers

rcs1000 · February 21

"Pork markets" is actually really funny.

rottenborough · February 21

What the world knows, and will not unlearn, is that the United States cannot be trusted. Faith in America, and in basic American decency and goodwill, has kept the peace for generations, but that is over. Nations that refrained from getting nuclear weapons because they were secure under the American umbrella will rush to get bombs. Nations that resisted China’s bullying will make their accommodations. The Taiwanese can kiss their independence and their freedom goodbye. Formerly close allies will not share intelligence about impending terrorist threats. Our trading partners will make other plans and find other markets wherever possible. International lenders will think twice before underwriting more American debt.

https://www.thebulwark.com/p/america-joins-the-jackals?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium==&utm_campaign=s

SouthamObserver · February 21

The LibDems have an open goal here and are making the most of it. They are doing what the Tories and Reform won't do, and what Labour can't do (yet).

HYUFD · February 21

I don't think the LDs will gain much, Starmer and Badenoch have equally confirmed support for Zelensky and Ukraine (as to be fair did Truss as PM). Starmer is also very pro EDI unlike Trump and both Starmer and Badenoch as well as Davey oppose Trump's tariffs and Starmer has reiterated support for a 2 state solution between Israel and Palestine. The most pro Trump party is Reform whose voters would never consider the pro EU, pro immigration LDs anyway

carnforth · February 21

Czechs get all the good stuff, SouthamObserver:

https://nakup.itesco.cz/groceries/en-CZ/products/2001120828532

For making rabbit head pasta:

http://fxcuisine.com/Default.asp?language=2&Display=159&resolution=print

TheScreamingEagles · February 21

rcs1000 said:
"Pork markets" is actually really funny.

I did a proper LOL when I saw it.

rottenborough · February 21

This "new free speech media network" sounds ominous especially as she says it with "with some help from our American allies".

Her allies are people like Bannon.

IanB2 · February 21

Make Orwell fiction again.

kinabalu · February 21

1984 as "instruction manual".

Oh god. Of all the negatives of the "new right" their sheer unremitting triteness has to be towards the top of the list.

Yawn yawn yawn.

rcs1000 · February 21

rottenborough said:
What the world knows, and will not unlearn, is that the United States cannot be trusted. Faith in America, and in basic American decency and goodwill, has kept the peace for generations, but that is over. Nations that refrained from getting nuclear weapons because they were secure under the American umbrella will rush to get bombs. Nations that resisted China’s bullying will make their accommodations. The Taiwanese can kiss their independence and their freedom goodbye. Formerly close allies will not share intelligence about impending terrorist threats. Our trading partners will make other plans and find other markets wherever possible. International lenders will think twice before underwriting more American debt.

https://www.thebulwark.com/p/america-joins-the-jackals?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium==&utm_campaign=s

Yes: the Americans have ensured nuclear proliferation.

TheScreamingEagles · February 21

Gallowgate said:
Second like Mozzarella Dippers

I'm hungry now.

IanB2 · February 21

Make Orwell fiction again.

HYUFD said:
I don't think the LDs will gain much, Starmer and Badenoch have equally confirmed support for Zelensky and Ukraine (as to be fair did Truss as PM). Starmer is also very pro EDI unlike Trump and both Starmer and Badenoch as well as Davey oppose Trump's tariffs and Starmer has reiterated support for a 2 state solution between Israel and Palestine. The most pro Trump party is Reform whose voters would never consider the pro EU, pro immigration LDs anyway

How you got to learn so much from the market research lady at Sunshine Desserts, despite being so young at the time, remains a mystery.

TOPPING · February 21

As someone who rejoiced when democracy prevailed and Trump was elected I am interested to understand what, when we are able to understand this from some (temporal) distance, the implications of these seeming random, chaotic, and impulsive policy directives and announcements.

Vance yday reiterated the America First doctrine and that is surely why Trump was elected.

Carnyx · February 21

IanB2 said:
Make Orwell fiction again.
HYUFD said:
I don't think the LDs will gain much, Starmer and Badenoch have equally confirmed support for Zelensky and Ukraine (as to be fair did Truss as PM). Starmer is also very pro EDI unlike Trump and both Starmer and Badenoch as well as Davey oppose Trump's tariffs and Starmer has reiterated support for a 2 state solution between Israel and Palestine. The most pro Trump party is Reform whose voters would never consider the pro EU, pro immigration LDs anyway
How you got to learn so much from the market research lady at Sunshine Desserts, despite being so young at the time, remains a mystery.

"9.8% of the 32% of the over-55s in the Wirral, and 36% of the 2.1% in the Gorbals who liked the pill also liked the idea. 33.7% of those in the Gorbals told us where we could put our insoluble suppositories."

MattW · February 21

carnforth said:

SouthamObserver said:

HYUFD said:

Gallowgate said:

HYUFD said:

carnforth said:

HYUFD said:

eek said:

HYUFD said:

eek said:

HYUFD said:

kinabalu said:

SouthamObserver said:
In all seriousness, what is this western civilisation that is being defended if it does not mean:
1. Liberal democracy
2. The rule of law
3. Freedom of speech and expression
President Trump is opposed to all three. So what other unifying values are there for Europe to get behind him to defend?
The driving sentiment is that the West is being despoiled by Muslims.
Well lots of rightwingers getting annoyed on X FiveGuys have stopped serving bacon in aBirmingham and now only serving Halal meat

https://x.com/GBNEWS/status/1892940126583464380

What’s the odds everyone complaining has never bought anything from there?

Locally there is 1 KFC in Teesside that uses Halal meat. You can identify it from the queues being way longer than elsewhere
Does it also ban bacon like FiveGuys Birmingham have?
Um - I don’t think they’ve banned bacon, they just don’t sell it.

I suspect you (and the other GBNews viewers) won’t grasp the fundamental difference
They have stopped selling bacon and alcohol in a number of their restaurants and now lots of rightwing tweeters are promising to boycott FiveGuys.

To be fair they have a point, sell halal meat by all means but don't stop selling non halal meat and alcohol.

What next? Mosques allowed but churches and pubs and bars banned in Muslim plurality areas of the UK?
No-one's banning anything. You don't have to go there.
Five Guys have literally banned sale of bacon in their restaurants in areas with significant Muslim populations
No, they have literally decided not to sell bacon in certain restaurants, probably due to low demand. Good grief.

The same way Tesco doesn’t ban the sale of certain brands when it decides not to stock them anymore.
It doesn't ban whole categories of meat though, brands are just one producer of the product

Have you tried buying rabbit meat in Tesco?

Cubed frozen rabbit meat was available in Tesco up to the early 2000s.

Is this like the cubed watermelons of Japan (apart from being rabbits) ?

carnforth · February 21

MattW said:

carnforth said:

SouthamObserver said:

HYUFD said:

Gallowgate said:

HYUFD said:

carnforth said:

HYUFD said:

eek said:

HYUFD said:

eek said:

HYUFD said:

kinabalu said:

SouthamObserver said:
In all seriousness, what is this western civilisation that is being defended if it does not mean:
1. Liberal democracy
2. The rule of law
3. Freedom of speech and expression
President Trump is opposed to all three. So what other unifying values are there for Europe to get behind him to defend?
The driving sentiment is that the West is being despoiled by Muslims.
Well lots of rightwingers getting annoyed on X FiveGuys have stopped serving bacon in aBirmingham and now only serving Halal meat

https://x.com/GBNEWS/status/1892940126583464380

What’s the odds everyone complaining has never bought anything from there?

Locally there is 1 KFC in Teesside that uses Halal meat. You can identify it from the queues being way longer than elsewhere
Does it also ban bacon like FiveGuys Birmingham have?
Um - I don’t think they’ve banned bacon, they just don’t sell it.

I suspect you (and the other GBNews viewers) won’t grasp the fundamental difference
They have stopped selling bacon and alcohol in a number of their restaurants and now lots of rightwing tweeters are promising to boycott FiveGuys.

To be fair they have a point, sell halal meat by all means but don't stop selling non halal meat and alcohol.

What next? Mosques allowed but churches and pubs and bars banned in Muslim plurality areas of the UK?
No-one's banning anything. You don't have to go there.
Five Guys have literally banned sale of bacon in their restaurants in areas with significant Muslim populations
No, they have literally decided not to sell bacon in certain restaurants, probably due to low demand. Good grief.

The same way Tesco doesn’t ban the sale of certain brands when it decides not to stock them anymore.
It doesn't ban whole categories of meat though, brands are just one producer of the product

Have you tried buying rabbit meat in Tesco?

Cubed frozen rabbit meat was available in Tesco up to the early 2000s.

Is this like the cubed watermelons of Japan (apart from being rabbits) ?

Sadly not. It looked like this:

https://www.pawffsg.com/product/rabbit-meat

Carnyx · February 21

carnforth said:
Czechs get all the good stuff, SouthamObserver:

https://nakup.itesco.cz/groceries/en-CZ/products/2001120828532

For making rabbit head pasta:

http://fxcuisine.com/Default.asp?language=2&Display=159&resolution=print

Mm. I prefer bunny with chocolate and pine nuts . Or I think I would (not having eaten the bunny heads).

TOPPING · February 21

rottenborough said:
What the world knows, and will not unlearn, is that the United States cannot be trusted. Faith in America, and in basic American decency and goodwill, has kept the peace for generations, but that is over. Nations that refrained from getting nuclear weapons because they were secure under the American umbrella will rush to get bombs. Nations that resisted China’s bullying will make their accommodations. The Taiwanese can kiss their independence and their freedom goodbye. Formerly close allies will not share intelligence about impending terrorist threats. Our trading partners will make other plans and find other markets wherever possible. International lenders will think twice before underwriting more American debt.

https://www.thebulwark.com/p/america-joins-the-jackals?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium==&utm_campaign=s

They (you?) are upset that they are trying to bring about peace in Ukraine when the quote criticises them for no longer being peacekeepers?

SouthamObserver · February 21

carnforth said:
Czechs get all the good stuff, SouthamObserver:

https://nakup.itesco.cz/groceries/en-CZ/products/2001120828532

For making rabbit head pasta:

http://fxcuisine.com/Default.asp?language=2&Display=159&resolution=print

I'm a big fan of rabbit. I like it done the Catalan way - grilled and served with a mound of alioli, roasted peppers and chips. Add a bottle of filthy strong red wine from the Priorat and you're in paradise

Cleitophon · February 21

TOPPING said:

rottenborough said:
What the world knows, and will not unlearn, is that the United States cannot be trusted. Faith in America, and in basic American decency and goodwill, has kept the peace for generations, but that is over. Nations that refrained from getting nuclear weapons because they were secure under the American umbrella will rush to get bombs. Nations that resisted China’s bullying will make their accommodations. The Taiwanese can kiss their independence and their freedom goodbye. Formerly close allies will not share intelligence about impending terrorist threats. Our trading partners will make other plans and find other markets wherever possible. International lenders will think twice before underwriting more American debt.

https://www.thebulwark.com/p/america-joins-the-jackals?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium==&utm_campaign=s
They (you?) are upset that they are trying to bring about peace in Ukraine when the quote criticises them for no longer being peacekeepers?

You are mistaking "peace in ukraine" for "Russian victory in europe" ....

Northern_Al · February 21

FPT:
My local pub doesn't sell bacon.
My local butcher doesn't sell beer.
It's an absolute disgrace.
Woke madness.

state_go_away · February 21

On the Ukraine war - There has to be a solution and the sooner the better surely ? If you look at the maps of who is occupying what ,it hasnt changed for months so a stalemate than cannot be broken (no matter how much one wishes) by Ukraine or the west. Trump is his own manner is saying this and not really sure why most of the West is so up in arms about a peace deal being explored

williamglenn · February 21

TOPPING said:
As someone who rejoiced when democracy prevailed and Trump was elected I am interested to understand what, when we are able to understand this from some (temporal) distance, the implications of these seeming random, chaotic, and impulsive policy directives and announcements.

Vance yday reiterated the America First doctrine and that is surely why Trump was elected.

When was the last time an election in this country really changed the direction of the state in the way the last US election did? For a long time we've had virtual continuity here with elections only resulting in a reshuffling of personnel.

CharlieShark · February 21

WTF have the government done with Apple. God knows all of the consequences, I doubt they have given them a second thought.

SouthamObserver · February 21

HYUFD said:
I don't think the LDs will gain much, Starmer and Badenoch have equally confirmed support for Zelensky and Ukraine (as to be fair did Truss as PM). Starmer is also very pro EDI unlike Trump and both Starmer and Badenoch as well as Davey oppose Trump's tariffs and Starmer has reiterated support for a 2 state solution between Israel and Palestine. The most pro Trump party is Reform whose voters would never consider the pro EU, pro immigration LDs anyway

Only the LibDems are going after Trump. I suspect this will be popular with the current LibDem voter base and those the party is targeting for next time.

HYUFD · February 21

Northern_Al said:
FPT:
My local pub doesn't sell bacon.
My local butcher doesn't sell beer.
It's an absolute disgrace.
Woke madness.

Does your local pub and local butcher only sell halal meat?

TOPPING · February 21

Cleitophon said:

TOPPING said:

rottenborough said:
What the world knows, and will not unlearn, is that the United States cannot be trusted. Faith in America, and in basic American decency and goodwill, has kept the peace for generations, but that is over. Nations that refrained from getting nuclear weapons because they were secure under the American umbrella will rush to get bombs. Nations that resisted China’s bullying will make their accommodations. The Taiwanese can kiss their independence and their freedom goodbye. Formerly close allies will not share intelligence about impending terrorist threats. Our trading partners will make other plans and find other markets wherever possible. International lenders will think twice before underwriting more American debt.

https://www.thebulwark.com/p/america-joins-the-jackals?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium==&utm_campaign=s
They (you?) are upset that they are trying to bring about peace in Ukraine when the quote criticises them for no longer being peacekeepers?
You are mistaking "peace in ukraine" for "Russian victory in europe" ....

Well. Someone wins and someone loses. Neither the US nor the UK nor the EU have done anything to ensure a Ukrainian victory and the US has done an order of magnitude more than those others to ensure Ukraine is not defeated totally.

What would you like to happen? The UK and the EU do something they haven't done since Feb 2022?

Jim_Miller · February 21

FPT: I'm glad to see that a few of you responded to my comment about the odds against a third term for the Loser. May I suggest that those here who think it likely follow the example of those few, and give personal estimates on the odds in any future posts on the subject.

I'll repeat mine: less that one chance in a billion. And I would give the same odds against an"extension" of his second term.

Reminder: Given the Loser's age, his obesity, and his lack of aerobic exercise, there is a real possibility that he will not live out his second term.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_and_health_concerns_about_Donald_Trump

Nigelb · February 21

rcs1000 said:
"Pork markets" is actually really funny.

"Don't tell 'im, Pork !"

williamglenn · February 21

Cleitophon said:

TOPPING said:

rottenborough said:
What the world knows, and will not unlearn, is that the United States cannot be trusted. Faith in America, and in basic American decency and goodwill, has kept the peace for generations, but that is over. Nations that refrained from getting nuclear weapons because they were secure under the American umbrella will rush to get bombs. Nations that resisted China’s bullying will make their accommodations. The Taiwanese can kiss their independence and their freedom goodbye. Formerly close allies will not share intelligence about impending terrorist threats. Our trading partners will make other plans and find other markets wherever possible. International lenders will think twice before underwriting more American debt.

https://www.thebulwark.com/p/america-joins-the-jackals?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium==&utm_campaign=s
They (you?) are upset that they are trying to bring about peace in Ukraine when the quote criticises them for no longer being peacekeepers?
You are mistaking "peace in ukraine" for "Russian victory in europe" ....

If George Bush senior and Margaret Thatcher had got their way, the USSR would never have broken up in the first place. It's worth thinking about how we've got to the point where we regard it as a disaster for Russia to include Crimea and the Donbas.

TOPPING · February 21

HYUFD said:

Northern_Al said:
FPT:
My local pub doesn't sell bacon.
My local butcher doesn't sell beer.
It's an absolute disgrace.
Woke madness.
Does your local pub and local butcher only sell halal meat?

As a small state free marketeer (I presume) surely you should be delighted that firms respond to market forces in their choice of products and services to provide.

TimS · February 21

SouthamObserver said:

HYUFD said:
I don't think the LDs will gain much, Starmer and Badenoch have equally confirmed support for Zelensky and Ukraine (as to be fair did Truss as PM). Starmer is also very pro EDI unlike Trump and both Starmer and Badenoch as well as Davey oppose Trump's tariffs and Starmer has reiterated support for a 2 state solution between Israel and Palestine. The most pro Trump party is Reform whose voters would never consider the pro EU, pro immigration LDs anyway

Only the LibDems are going after Trump. I suspect this will be popular with the current LibDem voter base and those the party is targeting for next time.

I’ve noticed several of them deliberately tagging JD Vance and Musk in their tweets, to provoke a reaction.

Davey already had an online attack from Musk a few weeks ago. They must have seen the engagement numbers from that and thought “hmm, let’s get a bit more”.

PJH · February 21

kinabalu said:
1984 as "instruction manual".

Oh god. Of all the negatives of the "new right" their sheer unremitting triteness has to be towards the top of the list.

Yawn yawn yawn.

As I said in jest on the previous thread, but this time I say it more seriously, who does she think was in office for nearly all the last 15 years? It's a shame she doesn't know anyone who was in government from (say) 2012 including holding two of the great Offices of State?

Also I'm confused, wasn't 1984 describing how to use a leadership personality cult to enforce an authoritarian regime?

HYUFD · February 21

SouthamObserver said:

HYUFD said:
I don't think the LDs will gain much, Starmer and Badenoch have equally confirmed support for Zelensky and Ukraine (as to be fair did Truss as PM). Starmer is also very pro EDI unlike Trump and both Starmer and Badenoch as well as Davey oppose Trump's tariffs and Starmer has reiterated support for a 2 state solution between Israel and Palestine. The most pro Trump party is Reform whose voters would never consider the pro EU, pro immigration LDs anyway

Only the LibDems are going after Trump. I suspect this will be popular with the current LibDem voter base and those the party is targeting for next time.

So are the Greens and Corbyn's Independents

HYUFD · February 21

williamglenn said:

TOPPING said:
As someone who rejoiced when democracy prevailed and Trump was elected I am interested to understand what, when we are able to understand this from some (temporal) distance, the implications of these seeming random, chaotic, and impulsive policy directives and announcements.

Vance yday reiterated the America First doctrine and that is surely why Trump was elected.
When was the last time an election in this country really changed the direction of the state in the way the last US election did? For a long time we've had virtual continuity here with elections only resulting in a reshuffling of personnel.

2019 when it delivered Brexit

Gardenwalker · February 21

The Tories are running down an ideological cul-de-sac.
The social post about being defenders of Western Civilidation is utterly bonkers. These are serious times, and Badenoch is simply not serious. Total irrelevance beckons.

The Lib Dems smell weakness, hopefully.
There’s an opportunity to position themselves as the mainstream opposition to Labour, with Reform as the supposedly “populist” opposition.

HYUFD · February 21

TOPPING said:

HYUFD said:

Northern_Al said:
FPT:
My local pub doesn't sell bacon.
My local butcher doesn't sell beer.
It's an absolute disgrace.
Woke madness.
Does your local pub and local butcher only sell halal meat?
As a small state free marketeer (I presume) surely you should be delighted that firms respond to market forces in their choice of products and services to provide.

They can include halal meat in areas with significant Muslims they shouldn't stop selling non halal meat, especially if they are a national chain and not a Muslim shop. I am not a pure free marketeer either, just more so than socialist

Northern_Al · February 21

HYUFD said:

Northern_Al said:
FPT:
My local pub doesn't sell bacon.
My local butcher doesn't sell beer.
It's an absolute disgrace.
Woke madness.
Does your local pub and local butcher only sell halal meat?

No, because there isn't much demand for it round my way.
Gail's, and artisan coffee, are inexplicably popular though. I'd ban both.

williamglenn · February 21

HYUFD said:

williamglenn said:

TOPPING said:
As someone who rejoiced when democracy prevailed and Trump was elected I am interested to understand what, when we are able to understand this from some (temporal) distance, the implications of these seeming random, chaotic, and impulsive policy directives and announcements.

Vance yday reiterated the America First doctrine and that is surely why Trump was elected.
When was the last time an election in this country really changed the direction of the state in the way the last US election did? For a long time we've had virtual continuity here with elections only resulting in a reshuffling of personnel.
2019 when it delivered Brexit

And betrayed it by ramping up immigration to record levels.

kinabalu · February 21

TOPPING said:
As someone who rejoiced when democracy prevailed and Trump was elected I am interested to understand what, when we are able to understand this from some (temporal) distance, the implications of these seeming random, chaotic, and impulsive policy directives and announcements.

Vance yday reiterated the America First doctrine and that is surely why Trump was elected.

If we were to gather into a room all of the Hard Remainer One Nation Cameroony Conservatives in the whole of England who are also Donald Trump supporters I wonder who would be sitting there on his lonesome with nobody to talk to?

Yep. That's how special you are.

HYUFD · February 21

williamglenn said:

HYUFD said:

williamglenn said:

TOPPING said:
As someone who rejoiced when democracy prevailed and Trump was elected I am interested to understand what, when we are able to understand this from some (temporal) distance, the implications of these seeming random, chaotic, and impulsive policy directives and announcements.

Vance yday reiterated the America First doctrine and that is surely why Trump was elected.
When was the last time an election in this country really changed the direction of the state in the way the last US election did? For a long time we've had virtual continuity here with elections only resulting in a reshuffling of personnel.
2019 when it delivered Brexit
And betrayed it by ramping up immigration to record levels.

No, it ended EU free movement and left the single market and customs union.

Boris increasing non EU free movement was not related to Brexit and Rishi tightened up the visa wage requirements for non EU migrants and dependents anyway

williamglenn · February 21

kinabalu said:

TOPPING said:
As someone who rejoiced when democracy prevailed and Trump was elected I am interested to understand what, when we are able to understand this from some (temporal) distance, the implications of these seeming random, chaotic, and impulsive policy directives and announcements.

Vance yday reiterated the America First doctrine and that is surely why Trump was elected.
If we were to gather into a room all of the Hard Remainer One Nation Cameroony Conservatives in the whole of England who are also Donald Trump supporters I wonder who would be sitting there on his lonesome with nobody to talk to?

Yep. That's how special you are.

You could have a one-to-one with Peter Mandelson.

kinabalu · February 21

PJH said:

kinabalu said:
1984 as "instruction manual".

Oh god. Of all the negatives of the "new right" their sheer unremitting triteness has to be towards the top of the list.

Yawn yawn yawn.
As I said in jest on the previous thread, but this time I say it more seriously, who does she think was in office for nearly all the last 15 years? It's a shame she doesn't know anyone who was in government from (say) 2012 including holding two of the great Offices of State?

Also I'm confused, wasn't 1984 describing how to use a leadership personality cult to enforce an authoritarian regime?

It's truly desperate stuff, both style and content.

bondegezou · February 21

state_go_away said:
On the Ukraine war - There has to be a solution and the sooner the better surely ? If you look at the maps of who is occupying what ,it hasnt changed for months so a stalemate than cannot be broken (no matter how much one wishes) by Ukraine or the west. Trump is his own manner is saying this and not really sure why most of the West is so up in arms about a peace deal being explored

We don’t know that the stalemate can’t be broken. There are different possible peace deals. The problem is that Trump isn’t just promoting some sort of settlement. No, he has chosen to talk to Russia, while shutting Ukraine out of the talks, and he has basically conceded most of what Russia wants upfront. He is repeating Russian propaganda, like calling Zelenskyy illegitimate. He is lying, like inventing figures for US aid to Ukraine unrelated to reality.

More than that, Trump is basically tearing up the post-WW2 international order of the last three quarters of a century. We had rejected wars of aggression and Trump is now saying they’re fine. We had rejected genocide and Trump is now promoting ethnic cleansing in Gaza and effectively endorsing Russia’s genocide in eastern Ukraine.

TOPPING · February 21

HYUFD said:

TOPPING said:

HYUFD said:

Northern_Al said:
FPT:
My local pub doesn't sell bacon.
My local butcher doesn't sell beer.
It's an absolute disgrace.
Woke madness.
Does your local pub and local butcher only sell halal meat?
As a small state free marketeer (I presume) surely you should be delighted that firms respond to market forces in their choice of products and services to provide.
They can include halal meat in areas with significant Muslims they shouldn't stop selling non halal meat, especially if they are a national chain and not a Muslim shop. I am not a pure free marketeer either, just more so than socialist

So you want to dictate what local shops sell.

I think you belong on the far left.

HYUFD · February 21

Gardenwalker said:
The Tories are running down an ideological cul-de-sac.
The social post about being defenders of Western Civilidation is utterly bonkers. These are serious times, and Badenoch is simply not serious. Total irrelevance beckons.

The Lib Dems smell weakness, hopefully.
There’s an opportunity to position themselves as the mainstream opposition to Labour, with Reform as the supposedly “populist” opposition.

There isn't, unless the LDs went low tax, small state (which would send the social democrat wing of the LDs back to Labour as happened after the 2010 Coalition government between the LDs and the Tories) they won't win over many more Tories as the main opposition to Labour and certainly not those who don't want closer ties with the EU, those who do largely went LD in 2024 anyway. They certainly aren't going to be able to challenge Reform as the hardline anti immigration, anti woke party either

bondegezou · February 21

williamglenn said:

TOPPING said:
As someone who rejoiced when democracy prevailed and Trump was elected I am interested to understand what, when we are able to understand this from some (temporal) distance, the implications of these seeming random, chaotic, and impulsive policy directives and announcements.

Vance yday reiterated the America First doctrine and that is surely why Trump was elected.
When was the last time an election in this country really changed the direction of the state in the way the last US election did? For a long time we've had virtual continuity here with elections only resulting in a reshuffling of personnel.

Austerity was a big change, Brexit was a big change. Those weren’t mere re-shuffles of personnel.

state_go_away · February 21

kinabalu said:

TOPPING said:
As someone who rejoiced when democracy prevailed and Trump was elected I am interested to understand what, when we are able to understand this from some (temporal) distance, the implications of these seeming random, chaotic, and impulsive policy directives and announcements.

Vance yday reiterated the America First doctrine and that is surely why Trump was elected.
If we were to gather into a room all of the Hard Remainer One Nation Cameroony Conservatives in the whole of England who are also Donald Trump supporters I wonder who would be sitting there on his lonesome with nobody to talk to?

Yep. That's how special you are.

Thats clearly not true as I think I am that as well. Anyway better to have your own convictions that go with a herd just for comfort

Foxy · February 21

state_go_away said:
On the Ukraine war - There has to be a solution and the sooner the better surely ? If you look at the maps of who is occupying what ,it hasnt changed for months so a stalemate than cannot be broken (no matter how much one wishes) by Ukraine or the west. Trump is his own manner is saying this and not really sure why most of the West is so up in arms about a peace deal being explored

Russia doesn't want a ceasefire line where it is now, they want the full Luhansk, Donetsk, Kherson and Zaporhizhia oblasts. That is a significant advance on what they currently occupy.

williamglenn · February 21

HYUFD said:

williamglenn said:

HYUFD said:

williamglenn said:

TOPPING said:
As someone who rejoiced when democracy prevailed and Trump was elected I am interested to understand what, when we are able to understand this from some (temporal) distance, the implications of these seeming random, chaotic, and impulsive policy directives and announcements.

Vance yday reiterated the America First doctrine and that is surely why Trump was elected.
When was the last time an election in this country really changed the direction of the state in the way the last US election did? For a long time we've had virtual continuity here with elections only resulting in a reshuffling of personnel.
2019 when it delivered Brexit
And betrayed it by ramping up immigration to record levels.
No, it ended EU free movement and left the single market and customs union.

Boris increasing non EU free movement was not related to Brexit and Rishi tightened up the visa wage requirements for non EU migrants and dependents anyway

The Tory record on dependants looks like this:

Taz · February 21

Northern_Al said:
FPT:
My local pub doesn't sell bacon.
My local butcher doesn't sell beer.
It's an absolute disgrace.
Woke madness.

That doesn’t work as neither traditionally sell those products or have sold them and stopped.

bondegezou · February 21

TOPPING said:

Cleitophon said:

TOPPING said:

rottenborough said:
What the world knows, and will not unlearn, is that the United States cannot be trusted. Faith in America, and in basic American decency and goodwill, has kept the peace for generations, but that is over. Nations that refrained from getting nuclear weapons because they were secure under the American umbrella will rush to get bombs. Nations that resisted China’s bullying will make their accommodations. The Taiwanese can kiss their independence and their freedom goodbye. Formerly close allies will not share intelligence about impending terrorist threats. Our trading partners will make other plans and find other markets wherever possible. International lenders will think twice before underwriting more American debt.

https://www.thebulwark.com/p/america-joins-the-jackals?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium==&utm_campaign=s
They (you?) are upset that they are trying to bring about peace in Ukraine when the quote criticises them for no longer being peacekeepers?
You are mistaking "peace in ukraine" for "Russian victory in europe" ....
Well. Someone wins and someone loses. Neither the US nor the UK nor the EU have done anything to ensure a Ukrainian victory and the US has done an order of magnitude more than those others to ensure Ukraine is not defeated totally.

What would you like to happen? The UK and the EU do something they haven't done since Feb 2022?

That’s simply untrue. The US, EU and UK have done a lot to help a Ukrainian victory. The EU has given more than the US.

Foxy · February 21

bondegezou said:

williamglenn said:

TOPPING said:
As someone who rejoiced when democracy prevailed and Trump was elected I am interested to understand what, when we are able to understand this from some (temporal) distance, the implications of these seeming random, chaotic, and impulsive policy directives and announcements.

Vance yday reiterated the America First doctrine and that is surely why Trump was elected.
When was the last time an election in this country really changed the direction of the state in the way the last US election did? For a long time we've had virtual continuity here with elections only resulting in a reshuffling of personnel.
Austerity was a big change, Brexit was a big change. Those weren’t mere re-shuffles of personnel.

Neither was last July's election judging by the epidemic of vapours and pearl clutching from the press and PB Tories.

Carnyx · February 21

williamglenn said:

HYUFD said:

williamglenn said:

HYUFD said:

williamglenn said:

TOPPING said:
As someone who rejoiced when democracy prevailed and Trump was elected I am interested to understand what, when we are able to understand this from some (temporal) distance, the implications of these seeming random, chaotic, and impulsive policy directives and announcements.

Vance yday reiterated the America First doctrine and that is surely why Trump was elected.
When was the last time an election in this country really changed the direction of the state in the way the last US election did? For a long time we've had virtual continuity here with elections only resulting in a reshuffling of personnel.
2019 when it delivered Brexit
And betrayed it by ramping up immigration to record levels.
No, it ended EU free movement and left the single market and customs union.

Boris increasing non EU free movement was not related to Brexit and Rishi tightened up the visa wage requirements for non EU migrants and dependents anyway
The Tory record on dependants looks like this:

Mm, that's year ending - so 2023 would reflect the academic year 2022-2023? But most of the decision making would be at the start?

Taz · February 21

TimS said:

SouthamObserver said:

HYUFD said:
I don't think the LDs will gain much, Starmer and Badenoch have equally confirmed support for Zelensky and Ukraine (as to be fair did Truss as PM). Starmer is also very pro EDI unlike Trump and both Starmer and Badenoch as well as Davey oppose Trump's tariffs and Starmer has reiterated support for a 2 state solution between Israel and Palestine. The most pro Trump party is Reform whose voters would never consider the pro EU, pro immigration LDs anyway

Only the LibDems are going after Trump. I suspect this will be popular with the current LibDem voter base and those the party is targeting for next time.

I’ve noticed several of them deliberately tagging JD Vance and Musk in their tweets, to provoke a reaction.

Davey already had an online attack from Musk a few weeks ago. They must have seen the engagement numbers from that and thought “hmm, let’s get a bit more”.

The Lib Dems are political prostitutes with few punters.

Foxy · February 21

Taz said:

TimS said:

SouthamObserver said:

HYUFD said:
I don't think the LDs will gain much, Starmer and Badenoch have equally confirmed support for Zelensky and Ukraine (as to be fair did Truss as PM). Starmer is also very pro EDI unlike Trump and both Starmer and Badenoch as well as Davey oppose Trump's tariffs and Starmer has reiterated support for a 2 state solution between Israel and Palestine. The most pro Trump party is Reform whose voters would never consider the pro EU, pro immigration LDs anyway

Only the LibDems are going after Trump. I suspect this will be popular with the current LibDem voter base and those the party is targeting for next time.

I’ve noticed several of them deliberately tagging JD Vance and Musk in their tweets, to provoke a reaction.

Davey already had an online attack from Musk a few weeks ago. They must have seen the engagement numbers from that and thought “hmm, let’s get a bit more”.
The Lib Dems are political prostitutes with few punters.

Oh, we get plenty of interest. I think more gains next GE.

Taz · February 21

williamglenn said:

HYUFD said:

williamglenn said:

HYUFD said:

williamglenn said:

TOPPING said:
As someone who rejoiced when democracy prevailed and Trump was elected I am interested to understand what, when we are able to understand this from some (temporal) distance, the implications of these seeming random, chaotic, and impulsive policy directives and announcements.

Vance yday reiterated the America First doctrine and that is surely why Trump was elected.
When was the last time an election in this country really changed the direction of the state in the way the last US election did? For a long time we've had virtual continuity here with elections only resulting in a reshuffling of personnel.
2019 when it delivered Brexit
And betrayed it by ramping up immigration to record levels.
No, it ended EU free movement and left the single market and customs union.

Boris increasing non EU free movement was not related to Brexit and Rishi tightened up the visa wage requirements for non EU migrants and dependents anyway
The Tory record on dependants looks like this:

I wonder how many of these students completed their studies, or even turned up.

rottenborough · February 21

Jim_Miller said:
FPT: I'm glad to see that a few of you responded to my comment about the odds against a third term for the Loser. May I suggest that those here who think it likely follow the example of those few, and give personal estimates on the odds in any future posts on the subject.

I'll repeat mine: less that one chance in a billion. And I would give the same odds against an"extension" of his second term.

Reminder: Given the Loser's age, his obesity, and his lack of aerobic exercise, there is a real possibility that he will not live out his second term.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_and_health_concerns_about_Donald_Trump

< 1 billion?

Seriously?

That's Elvis found alive and living on the moon levels.

kamski · February 21

HYUFD said:

TOPPING said:

HYUFD said:

Northern_Al said:
FPT:
My local pub doesn't sell bacon.
My local butcher doesn't sell beer.
It's an absolute disgrace.
Woke madness.
Does your local pub and local butcher only sell halal meat?
As a small state free marketeer (I presume) surely you should be delighted that firms respond to market forces in their choice of products and services to provide.
They can include halal meat in areas with significant Muslims they shouldn't stop selling non halal meat, especially if they are a national chain and not a Muslim shop. I am not a pure free marketeer either, just more so than socialist

Would you also force vegetarian restaurants to serve bacon?

bondegezou · February 21

HYUFD said:

TOPPING said:

HYUFD said:

Northern_Al said:
FPT:
My local pub doesn't sell bacon.
My local butcher doesn't sell beer.
It's an absolute disgrace.
Woke madness.
Does your local pub and local butcher only sell halal meat?
As a small state free marketeer (I presume) surely you should be delighted that firms respond to market forces in their choice of products and services to provide.
They can include halal meat in areas with significant Muslims they shouldn't stop selling non halal meat, especially if they are a national chain and not a Muslim shop. I am not a pure free marketeer either, just more so than socialist

I sometimes go to a butcher in Golders Green. Guess what they sell and don’t sell.

rottenborough · February 21

TOPPING said:

rottenborough said:
What the world knows, and will not unlearn, is that the United States cannot be trusted. Faith in America, and in basic American decency and goodwill, has kept the peace for generations, but that is over. Nations that refrained from getting nuclear weapons because they were secure under the American umbrella will rush to get bombs. Nations that resisted China’s bullying will make their accommodations. The Taiwanese can kiss their independence and their freedom goodbye. Formerly close allies will not share intelligence about impending terrorist threats. Our trading partners will make other plans and find other markets wherever possible. International lenders will think twice before underwriting more American debt.

https://www.thebulwark.com/p/america-joins-the-jackals?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium==&utm_campaign=s
They (you?) are upset that they are trying to bring about peace in Ukraine when the quote criticises them for no longer being peacekeepers?

It is not peace in Ukraine they trying to bring about, it is surrender.

Taz · February 21

rottenborough said:

TOPPING said:

rottenborough said:
What the world knows, and will not unlearn, is that the United States cannot be trusted. Faith in America, and in basic American decency and goodwill, has kept the peace for generations, but that is over. Nations that refrained from getting nuclear weapons because they were secure under the American umbrella will rush to get bombs. Nations that resisted China’s bullying will make their accommodations. The Taiwanese can kiss their independence and their freedom goodbye. Formerly close allies will not share intelligence about impending terrorist threats. Our trading partners will make other plans and find other markets wherever possible. International lenders will think twice before underwriting more American debt.

https://www.thebulwark.com/p/america-joins-the-jackals?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium==&utm_campaign=s
They (you?) are upset that they are trying to bring about peace in Ukraine when the quote criticises them for no longer being peacekeepers?
It is not peace in Ukraine they trying to bring about, it is surrender.

Ultimate Surrender ?

TOPPING · February 21

kinabalu said:

TOPPING said:
As someone who rejoiced when democracy prevailed and Trump was elected I am interested to understand what, when we are able to understand this from some (temporal) distance, the implications of these seeming random, chaotic, and impulsive policy directives and announcements.

Vance yday reiterated the America First doctrine and that is surely why Trump was elected.
If we were to gather into a room all of the Hard Remainer One Nation Cameroony Conservatives in the whole of England who are also Donald Trump supporters I wonder who would be sitting there on his lonesome with nobody to talk to?

Yep. That's how special you are.

I suppose labels are the fallback of people who don't have the intellectual capacity for more complex thinking.

kinabalu · February 21

state_go_away said:

kinabalu said:

TOPPING said:
As someone who rejoiced when democracy prevailed and Trump was elected I am interested to understand what, when we are able to understand this from some (temporal) distance, the implications of these seeming random, chaotic, and impulsive policy directives and announcements.

Vance yday reiterated the America First doctrine and that is surely why Trump was elected.
If we were to gather into a room all of the Hard Remainer One Nation Cameroony Conservatives in the whole of England who are also Donald Trump supporters I wonder who would be sitting there on his lonesome with nobody to talk to?

Yep. That's how special you are.
Thats clearly not true as I think I am that as well. Anyway better to have your own convictions that go with a herd just for comfort

Really? Seriously? Because Topping is only trolling on the Trump support. So if you're serious about it, and you're genuinely also a One Nation Socially Liberal Strong Remainer Tory, then it's YOU sitting there all on your own in that room instead. Terrible lonely fate!

Taz · February 21

Foxy said:

Taz said:

TimS said:

SouthamObserver said:

HYUFD said:
I don't think the LDs will gain much, Starmer and Badenoch have equally confirmed support for Zelensky and Ukraine (as to be fair did Truss as PM). Starmer is also very pro EDI unlike Trump and both Starmer and Badenoch as well as Davey oppose Trump's tariffs and Starmer has reiterated support for a 2 state solution between Israel and Palestine. The most pro Trump party is Reform whose voters would never consider the pro EU, pro immigration LDs anyway

Only the LibDems are going after Trump. I suspect this will be popular with the current LibDem voter base and those the party is targeting for next time.

I’ve noticed several of them deliberately tagging JD Vance and Musk in their tweets, to provoke a reaction.

Davey already had an online attack from Musk a few weeks ago. They must have seen the engagement numbers from that and thought “hmm, let’s get a bit more”.
The Lib Dems are political prostitutes with few punters.
Oh, we get plenty of interest. I think more gains next GE.

Long way off, we will see.

williamglenn · February 21

Taz said:

williamglenn said:

HYUFD said:

williamglenn said:

HYUFD said:

williamglenn said:

TOPPING said:
As someone who rejoiced when democracy prevailed and Trump was elected I am interested to understand what, when we are able to understand this from some (temporal) distance, the implications of these seeming random, chaotic, and impulsive policy directives and announcements.

Vance yday reiterated the America First doctrine and that is surely why Trump was elected.
When was the last time an election in this country really changed the direction of the state in the way the last US election did? For a long time we've had virtual continuity here with elections only resulting in a reshuffling of personnel.
2019 when it delivered Brexit
And betrayed it by ramping up immigration to record levels.
No, it ended EU free movement and left the single market and customs union.

Boris increasing non EU free movement was not related to Brexit and Rishi tightened up the visa wage requirements for non EU migrants and dependents anyway
The Tory record on dependants looks like this:

I wonder how many of these students completed their studies, or even turned up.

That's not even students but dependants of students. They were almost a quarter of student visas issued in 2023.

HYUFD · February 21

bondegezou said:

HYUFD said:

TOPPING said:

HYUFD said:

Northern_Al said:
FPT:
My local pub doesn't sell bacon.
My local butcher doesn't sell beer.
It's an absolute disgrace.
Woke madness.
Does your local pub and local butcher only sell halal meat?
As a small state free marketeer (I presume) surely you should be delighted that firms respond to market forces in their choice of products and services to provide.
They can include halal meat in areas with significant Muslims they shouldn't stop selling non halal meat, especially if they are a national chain and not a Muslim shop. I am not a pure free marketeer either, just more so than socialist
I sometimes go to a butcher in Golders Green. Guess what they sell and don’t sell.

Not a national chain like Five Guys

kinabalu · February 21

TOPPING said:

kinabalu said:

TOPPING said:
As someone who rejoiced when democracy prevailed and Trump was elected I am interested to understand what, when we are able to understand this from some (temporal) distance, the implications of these seeming random, chaotic, and impulsive policy directives and announcements.

Vance yday reiterated the America First doctrine and that is surely why Trump was elected.
If we were to gather into a room all of the Hard Remainer One Nation Cameroony Conservatives in the whole of England who are also Donald Trump supporters I wonder who would be sitting there on his lonesome with nobody to talk to?

Yep. That's how special you are.
I suppose labels are the fallback of people who don't have the intellectual capacity for more complex thinking.

Don't worry, I know you're just trolling. You're no Trump fan.

rottenborough · February 21

Trump has told an interviewer that Putin could just get the whole of Ukraine if he wanted to.

He has no clue has he? Not even a cursory glance at a military status briefing paper or a quick word with the chiefs of military. It has been stalemate for three years pretty much. Russia's war economy is running out of stuff.

eek · February 21

HYUFD said:

bondegezou said:

HYUFD said:

TOPPING said:

HYUFD said:

Northern_Al said:
FPT:
My local pub doesn't sell bacon.
My local butcher doesn't sell beer.
It's an absolute disgrace.
Woke madness.
Does your local pub and local butcher only sell halal meat?
As a small state free marketeer (I presume) surely you should be delighted that firms respond to market forces in their choice of products and services to provide.
They can include halal meat in areas with significant Muslims they shouldn't stop selling non halal meat, especially if they are a national chain and not a Muslim shop. I am not a pure free marketeer either, just more so than socialist
I sometimes go to a butcher in Golders Green. Guess what they sell and don’t sell.
Not a national chain like Five Guys

Five Guys is a franchise

HYUFD · February 21

williamglenn said:

HYUFD said:

williamglenn said:

HYUFD said:

williamglenn said:

TOPPING said:
As someone who rejoiced when democracy prevailed and Trump was elected I am interested to understand what, when we are able to understand this from some (temporal) distance, the implications of these seeming random, chaotic, and impulsive policy directives and announcements.

Vance yday reiterated the America First doctrine and that is surely why Trump was elected.
When was the last time an election in this country really changed the direction of the state in the way the last US election did? For a long time we've had virtual continuity here with elections only resulting in a reshuffling of personnel.
2019 when it delivered Brexit
And betrayed it by ramping up immigration to record levels.
No, it ended EU free movement and left the single market and customs union.

Boris increasing non EU free movement was not related to Brexit and Rishi tightened up the visa wage requirements for non EU migrants and dependents anyway
The Tory record on dependants looks like this:

And as I said Rishi and Cleverly reversed that in Jan 2024 when your chart conveniently stops

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/tough-government-action-on-student-visas-comes-into-effect

Gardenwalker · February 21

kinabalu said:

state_go_away said:

kinabalu said:

TOPPING said:
As someone who rejoiced when democracy prevailed and Trump was elected I am interested to understand what, when we are able to understand this from some (temporal) distance, the implications of these seeming random, chaotic, and impulsive policy directives and announcements.

Vance yday reiterated the America First doctrine and that is surely why Trump was elected.
If we were to gather into a room all of the Hard Remainer One Nation Cameroony Conservatives in the whole of England who are also Donald Trump supporters I wonder who would be sitting there on his lonesome with nobody to talk to?

Yep. That's how special you are.
Thats clearly not true as I think I am that as well. Anyway better to have your own convictions that go with a herd just for comfort
Really? Seriously? Because Topping is only trolling on the Trump support. So if you're serious about it, and you're genuinely also a One Nation Socially Liberal Strong Remainer Tory, then it's YOU sitting there all on your own in that room instead. Terrible lonely fate!

Who are these idiots?
What do they derive from trolling-for-Trump?

noneoftheabove · February 21

williamglenn said:

HYUFD said:

williamglenn said:

HYUFD said:

williamglenn said:

TOPPING said:
As someone who rejoiced when democracy prevailed and Trump was elected I am interested to understand what, when we are able to understand this from some (temporal) distance, the implications of these seeming random, chaotic, and impulsive policy directives and announcements.

Vance yday reiterated the America First doctrine and that is surely why Trump was elected.
When was the last time an election in this country really changed the direction of the state in the way the last US election did? For a long time we've had virtual continuity here with elections only resulting in a reshuffling of personnel.
2019 when it delivered Brexit
And betrayed it by ramping up immigration to record levels.
No, it ended EU free movement and left the single market and customs union.

Boris increasing non EU free movement was not related to Brexit and Rishi tightened up the visa wage requirements for non EU migrants and dependents anyway
The Tory record on dependants looks like this:

That was exactly the Tory plan written in 2019. Attract post graduate students from India and Nigeria specifically (plus 3 other countries) where people tend to have kids by post graduate age.

Foxy · February 21

kinabalu said:
1984 as "instruction manual".

Oh god. Of all the negatives of the "new right" their sheer unremitting triteness has to be towards the top of the list.

Yawn yawn yawn.

Apart from anything else they show how little Orwell that they have read!

He did criticise and lampoon Communism, but it was from a very left wing perspective. In animal Farm he was against Napoleon, but certainly against the Farmer too. His sympathies were always with the revolutionaries.

Stark_Dawning · February 21

williamglenn said:

Cleitophon said:

TOPPING said:

rottenborough said:
What the world knows, and will not unlearn, is that the United States cannot be trusted. Faith in America, and in basic American decency and goodwill, has kept the peace for generations, but that is over. Nations that refrained from getting nuclear weapons because they were secure under the American umbrella will rush to get bombs. Nations that resisted China’s bullying will make their accommodations. The Taiwanese can kiss their independence and their freedom goodbye. Formerly close allies will not share intelligence about impending terrorist threats. Our trading partners will make other plans and find other markets wherever possible. International lenders will think twice before underwriting more American debt.

https://www.thebulwark.com/p/america-joins-the-jackals?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium==&utm_campaign=s
They (you?) are upset that they are trying to bring about peace in Ukraine when the quote criticises them for no longer being peacekeepers?
You are mistaking "peace in ukraine" for "Russian victory in europe" ....
If George Bush senior and Margaret Thatcher had got their way, the USSR would never have broken up in the first place. It's worth thinking about how we've got to the point where we regard it as a disaster for Russia to include Crimea and the Donbas.

Is this the latest approach: Vlad is only doing what Maggie would have wanted? Unfortunately JD might have exorcized her ghost the other day when he lambasted her industrial strategy as being globally catastrophic. It'll be interesting to see if the New Right do indeed turn on her.

HYUFD · February 21

eek said:

HYUFD said:

bondegezou said:

HYUFD said:

TOPPING said:

HYUFD said:

Northern_Al said:
FPT:
My local pub doesn't sell bacon.
My local butcher doesn't sell beer.
It's an absolute disgrace.
Woke madness.
Does your local pub and local butcher only sell halal meat?
As a small state free marketeer (I presume) surely you should be delighted that firms respond to market forces in their choice of products and services to provide.
They can include halal meat in areas with significant Muslims they shouldn't stop selling non halal meat, especially if they are a national chain and not a Muslim shop. I am not a pure free marketeer either, just more so than socialist
I sometimes go to a butcher in Golders Green. Guess what they sell and don’t sell.
Not a national chain like Five Guys
Five Guys is a franchise

Provided by its national HQ

TOPPING · February 21

rottenborough said:

TOPPING said:

rottenborough said:
What the world knows, and will not unlearn, is that the United States cannot be trusted. Faith in America, and in basic American decency and goodwill, has kept the peace for generations, but that is over. Nations that refrained from getting nuclear weapons because they were secure under the American umbrella will rush to get bombs. Nations that resisted China’s bullying will make their accommodations. The Taiwanese can kiss their independence and their freedom goodbye. Formerly close allies will not share intelligence about impending terrorist threats. Our trading partners will make other plans and find other markets wherever possible. International lenders will think twice before underwriting more American debt.

https://www.thebulwark.com/p/america-joins-the-jackals?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium==&utm_campaign=s
They (you?) are upset that they are trying to bring about peace in Ukraine when the quote criticises them for no longer being peacekeepers?
It is not peace in Ukraine they trying to bring about, it is surrender.

What would you suggest. Ukraine is a sovereign nation and it has long been my position that they should not enter into peace negotiations if they don't want to and it is up to them to decide. Fine.

But they are also beholden and dependent upon apparently the most malign actor in the world who has said they might not want to continue to fund the war.

Where does sovereignty intersect with such dependency.

Taz · February 21

williamglenn said:

Taz said:

williamglenn said:

HYUFD said:

williamglenn said:

HYUFD said:

williamglenn said:

TOPPING said:
As someone who rejoiced when democracy prevailed and Trump was elected I am interested to understand what, when we are able to understand this from some (temporal) distance, the implications of these seeming random, chaotic, and impulsive policy directives and announcements.

Vance yday reiterated the America First doctrine and that is surely why Trump was elected.
When was the last time an election in this country really changed the direction of the state in the way the last US election did? For a long time we've had virtual continuity here with elections only resulting in a reshuffling of personnel.
2019 when it delivered Brexit
And betrayed it by ramping up immigration to record levels.
No, it ended EU free movement and left the single market and customs union.

Boris increasing non EU free movement was not related to Brexit and Rishi tightened up the visa wage requirements for non EU migrants and dependents anyway
The Tory record on dependants looks like this:

I wonder how many of these students completed their studies, or even turned up.
That's not even students but dependants of students. They were almost a quarter of student visas issued in 2023.

Aware of that. My question was more about how valid were these students claims to be students, if you get my drift.

CharlieShark · February 21

Nice to see that the EHRC has written to the Scottish Government and NHS Fife reminding them of their obligations under the Equality Act, reference to the ongoing Sandie Peggie case.

It will cheaper for taxpayers if they end this ridiculous charade sooner rather than later. The SNP have got themselves into such a muddle on this, especially Swinney. It's almost as if they are incompetent.

https://www.equalityhumanrights.com/media-centre/news/our-letter-chief-executive-nhs-fife

eek · February 21

TOPPING said:

rottenborough said:
What the world knows, and will not unlearn, is that the United States cannot be trusted. Faith in America, and in basic American decency and goodwill, has kept the peace for generations, but that is over. Nations that refrained from getting nuclear weapons because they were secure under the American umbrella will rush to get bombs. Nations that resisted China’s bullying will make their accommodations. The Taiwanese can kiss their independence and their freedom goodbye. Formerly close allies will not share intelligence about impending terrorist threats. Our trading partners will make other plans and find other markets wherever possible. International lenders will think twice before underwriting more American debt.

https://www.thebulwark.com/p/america-joins-the-jackals?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium==&utm_campaign=s
They (you?) are upset that they are trying to bring about peace in Ukraine when the quote criticises them for no longer being peacekeepers?

Give us the $500bn of minerals or we will allow Russia to take over your country isn’t a negotiation tactic, it’s a threat

HYUFD · February 21

kamski said:

HYUFD said:

TOPPING said:

HYUFD said:

Northern_Al said:
FPT:
My local pub doesn't sell bacon.
My local butcher doesn't sell beer.
It's an absolute disgrace.
Woke madness.
Does your local pub and local butcher only sell halal meat?
As a small state free marketeer (I presume) surely you should be delighted that firms respond to market forces in their choice of products and services to provide.
They can include halal meat in areas with significant Muslims they shouldn't stop selling non halal meat, especially if they are a national chain and not a Muslim shop. I am not a pure free marketeer either, just more so than socialist
Would you also force vegetarian restaurants to serve bacon?

No, nor would I force Muslim restaurants to but Five Guys is neither

TOPPING · February 21

kinabalu said:

TOPPING said:

kinabalu said:

TOPPING said:
As someone who rejoiced when democracy prevailed and Trump was elected I am interested to understand what, when we are able to understand this from some (temporal) distance, the implications of these seeming random, chaotic, and impulsive policy directives and announcements.

Vance yday reiterated the America First doctrine and that is surely why Trump was elected.
If we were to gather into a room all of the Hard Remainer One Nation Cameroony Conservatives in the whole of England who are also Donald Trump supporters I wonder who would be sitting there on his lonesome with nobody to talk to?

Yep. That's how special you are.
I suppose labels are the fallback of people who don't have the intellectual capacity for more complex thinking.
Don't worry, I know you're just trolling. You're no Trump fan.

I am a fan of the process that brought him to power and find constant amusement in the inability of "right thinking people" such as yourself to reconcile that people voted for him to do what he is doing.

Daveyboy1961 · February 21

TOPPING said:

kinabalu said:

TOPPING said:

kinabalu said:

TOPPING said:
As someone who rejoiced when democracy prevailed and Trump was elected I am interested to understand what, when we are able to understand this from some (temporal) distance, the implications of these seeming random, chaotic, and impulsive policy directives and announcements.

Vance yday reiterated the America First doctrine and that is surely why Trump was elected.
If we were to gather into a room all of the Hard Remainer One Nation Cameroony Conservatives in the whole of England who are also Donald Trump supporters I wonder who would be sitting there on his lonesome with nobody to talk to?

Yep. That's how special you are.
I suppose labels are the fallback of people who don't have the intellectual capacity for more complex thinking.
Don't worry, I know you're just trolling. You're no Trump fan.
I am a fan of the process that brought him to power and the inability of "right thinking people" such as yourself to reconcile that people voted for him to do what he is doing.

So they own it?

HYUFD · February 21

TOPPING said:

rottenborough said:

TOPPING said:

rottenborough said:
What the world knows, and will not unlearn, is that the United States cannot be trusted. Faith in America, and in basic American decency and goodwill, has kept the peace for generations, but that is over. Nations that refrained from getting nuclear weapons because they were secure under the American umbrella will rush to get bombs. Nations that resisted China’s bullying will make their accommodations. The Taiwanese can kiss their independence and their freedom goodbye. Formerly close allies will not share intelligence about impending terrorist threats. Our trading partners will make other plans and find other markets wherever possible. International lenders will think twice before underwriting more American debt.

https://www.thebulwark.com/p/america-joins-the-jackals?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium==&utm_campaign=s
They (you?) are upset that they are trying to bring about peace in Ukraine when the quote criticises them for no longer being peacekeepers?
It is not peace in Ukraine they trying to bring about, it is surrender.
What would you suggest. Ukraine is a sovereign nation and it has long been my position that they should not enter into peace negotiations if they don't want to and it is up to them to decide. Fine.

But they are also beholden and dependent upon apparently the most malign actor in the world who has said they might not want to continue to fund the war.

Where does sovereignty intersect with such dependency.

They aren't if Europe and Canada increase their defence spending and aid sent to Ukraine

TOPPING · February 21

bondegezou said:

TOPPING said:

Cleitophon said:

TOPPING said:

rottenborough said:
What the world knows, and will not unlearn, is that the United States cannot be trusted. Faith in America, and in basic American decency and goodwill, has kept the peace for generations, but that is over. Nations that refrained from getting nuclear weapons because they were secure under the American umbrella will rush to get bombs. Nations that resisted China’s bullying will make their accommodations. The Taiwanese can kiss their independence and their freedom goodbye. Formerly close allies will not share intelligence about impending terrorist threats. Our trading partners will make other plans and find other markets wherever possible. International lenders will think twice before underwriting more American debt.

https://www.thebulwark.com/p/america-joins-the-jackals?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium==&utm_campaign=s
They (you?) are upset that they are trying to bring about peace in Ukraine when the quote criticises them for no longer being peacekeepers?
You are mistaking "peace in ukraine" for "Russian victory in europe" ....
Well. Someone wins and someone loses. Neither the US nor the UK nor the EU have done anything to ensure a Ukrainian victory and the US has done an order of magnitude more than those others to ensure Ukraine is not defeated totally.

What would you like to happen? The UK and the EU do something they haven't done since Feb 2022?
That’s simply untrue. The US, EU and UK have done a lot to help a Ukrainian victory. The EU has given more than the US.

Then what's your problem. Ukraine can tell the US to go and do one and the EU will step up.

noneoftheabove · February 21

HYUFD said:

williamglenn said:

HYUFD said:

williamglenn said:

HYUFD said:

williamglenn said:

TOPPING said:
As someone who rejoiced when democracy prevailed and Trump was elected I am interested to understand what, when we are able to understand this from some (temporal) distance, the implications of these seeming random, chaotic, and impulsive policy directives and announcements.

Vance yday reiterated the America First doctrine and that is surely why Trump was elected.
When was the last time an election in this country really changed the direction of the state in the way the last US election did? For a long time we've had virtual continuity here with elections only resulting in a reshuffling of personnel.
2019 when it delivered Brexit
And betrayed it by ramping up immigration to record levels.
No, it ended EU free movement and left the single market and customs union.

Boris increasing non EU free movement was not related to Brexit and Rishi tightened up the visa wage requirements for non EU migrants and dependents anyway
The Tory record on dependants looks like this:

And as I said Rishi and Cleverly reversed that in Jan 2024 when your chart conveniently stops

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/tough-government-action-on-student-visas-comes-into-effect

That makes it worse not better.

If its a bad thing to do then don't start it in the first place.
If its a good thing to do then don't stop it once you started.

Telling the universities to base their finances around 500k extra overseas students from countries where they start families at a young age, doing it for 3 years then stopping just pisses absolutely everyone off.

Taz · February 21

Gardenwalker said:

kinabalu said:

state_go_away said:

kinabalu said:

TOPPING said:
As someone who rejoiced when democracy prevailed and Trump was elected I am interested to understand what, when we are able to understand this from some (temporal) distance, the implications of these seeming random, chaotic, and impulsive policy directives and announcements.

Vance yday reiterated the America First doctrine and that is surely why Trump was elected.
If we were to gather into a room all of the Hard Remainer One Nation Cameroony Conservatives in the whole of England who are also Donald Trump supporters I wonder who would be sitting there on his lonesome with nobody to talk to?

Yep. That's how special you are.
Thats clearly not true as I think I am that as well. Anyway better to have your own convictions that go with a herd just for comfort
Really? Seriously? Because Topping is only trolling on the Trump support. So if you're serious about it, and you're genuinely also a One Nation Socially Liberal Strong Remainer Tory, then it's YOU sitting there all on your own in that room instead. Terrible lonely fate!
Who are these idiots?
What do they derive from trolling-for-Trump?

I can’t see what is wrong with what Topping is saying in the sense Trump was elected on an America first basis and is working on that.

kinabalu · February 21

williamglenn said:

kinabalu said:

TOPPING said:
As someone who rejoiced when democracy prevailed and Trump was elected I am interested to understand what, when we are able to understand this from some (temporal) distance, the implications of these seeming random, chaotic, and impulsive policy directives and announcements.

Vance yday reiterated the America First doctrine and that is surely why Trump was elected.
If we were to gather into a room all of the Hard Remainer One Nation Cameroony Conservatives in the whole of England who are also Donald Trump supporters I wonder who would be sitting there on his lonesome with nobody to talk to?

Yep. That's how special you are.
You could have a one-to-one with Peter Mandelson.

Lol, nice try! He's Donald Trump's biggest UK fan now, getting paid for it even, but I'm less sure he's a One Nation Tory.

nico67 · February 21

Trump having another go at Zelenskyy and says it’s not important for him to be part of negotiations.

Can’t he just STFU for one day !

Andy_JS · February 21

Why didn't Truss do something about Orwell-ism while she was PM?

Foxy · February 21

rottenborough said:
This "new free speech media network" sounds ominous especially as she says it with "with some help from our American allies".

Her allies are people like Bannon.

This Bannon?

https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2025/feb/21/europe-live-latest-news-ukraine-russia-war-trump-macron-starmer?CMP=share_btn_url&page=with:block-67b88d078f08089227380b73#block-67b88d078f08089227380b73

TOPPING · February 21

state_go_away said:

kinabalu said:

TOPPING said:
As someone who rejoiced when democracy prevailed and Trump was elected I am interested to understand what, when we are able to understand this from some (temporal) distance, the implications of these seeming random, chaotic, and impulsive policy directives and announcements.

Vance yday reiterated the America First doctrine and that is surely why Trump was elected.
If we were to gather into a room all of the Hard Remainer One Nation Cameroony Conservatives in the whole of England who are also Donald Trump supporters I wonder who would be sitting there on his lonesome with nobody to talk to?

Yep. That's how special you are.
Thats clearly not true as I think I am that as well. Anyway better to have your own convictions that go with a herd just for comfort

Don't forget kini is not entirely sure what his opinion should be so he latches onto the opinions of others, as you say, for comfort.

His journey, remarkable as it is, has left him stranded in a world of opinions and mores that his education and achievements have left him singularly unprepared and unfit for.

glw · February 21

rottenborough said:
This "new free speech media network" sounds ominous especially as she says it with "with some help from our American allies".

Her allies are people like Bannon.

I can translate it, she means a billionaire backed outlet for Russian propaganda and disinformation.

rottenborough · February 21

Republicans against Trump
@RpsAgainstTrump
This isn’t a joke—Trump and MAGA are openly pushing for his dictatorship.

At CPAC, where Trump is set to speak, MAGA activists launched the “Third Term Project,” comparing him to Julius Caesar and calling to keep him in power beyond 2028.

https://x.com/RpsAgainstTrump/status/1892968771469381650

===

The campaign is using a drawing of Trump as Caesar.

TheScreamingEagles · February 21

nico67 said:
Trump having another go at Zelenskyy and says it’s not important for him to be part of negotiations.

Can’t he just STFU for one day !

No matter how bad Trump is for Ukraine just remember President Harris would have been worse for Ukraine.

I am going to name and shame the people who made that argument before the election.

turbotubbs · February 21

noneoftheabove said:

HYUFD said:

williamglenn said:

HYUFD said:

williamglenn said:

HYUFD said:

williamglenn said:

TOPPING said:
As someone who rejoiced when democracy prevailed and Trump was elected I am interested to understand what, when we are able to understand this from some (temporal) distance, the implications of these seeming random, chaotic, and impulsive policy directives and announcements.

Vance yday reiterated the America First doctrine and that is surely why Trump was elected.
When was the last time an election in this country really changed the direction of the state in the way the last US election did? For a long time we've had virtual continuity here with elections only resulting in a reshuffling of personnel.
2019 when it delivered Brexit
And betrayed it by ramping up immigration to record levels.
No, it ended EU free movement and left the single market and customs union.

Boris increasing non EU free movement was not related to Brexit and Rishi tightened up the visa wage requirements for non EU migrants and dependents anyway
The Tory record on dependants looks like this:

And as I said Rishi and Cleverly reversed that in Jan 2024 when your chart conveniently stops

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/tough-government-action-on-student-visas-comes-into-effect
That makes it worse not better.

If its a bad thing to do then don't start it in the first place.
If its a good thing to do then don't stop it once you started.

Telling the universities to base their finances around 500k extra overseas students from countries where they start families at a young age, doing it for 3 years then stopping just pisses absolutely everyone off.

Another one was diesel cars. Once government pushed diesel use as they give better mileage (fuel has inherently more energy per litre). Then the wind changed and diesels were bad for the local environment so lots of councils started putting in green zones and charging poor old diesel drivers... My colleague in Bath was not impressed.

williamglenn · February 21

rottenborough said:

Republicans against Trump
@RpsAgainstTrump
This isn’t a joke—Trump and MAGA are openly pushing for his dictatorship.

At CPAC, where Trump is set to speak, MAGA activists launched the “Third Term Project,” comparing him to Julius Caesar and calling to keep him in power beyond 2028.

https://x.com/RpsAgainstTrump/status/1892968771469381650

===

The campaign is using a drawing of Trump as Caesar.

It's a sensible political strategy to avoid the second-term lame duck phenomenon.

Foxy · February 21

Andy_JS said:
Why didn't Truss do something about Orwell-ism while she was PM?

She blinked and we missed it.

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